Liberals are indignant over the installation of a monument to Ivan the Terrible

In the city of Alexandrov a few days ago, a monument was opened to Ivan IV the Terrible. This information for certain circles in our country had the effect of an exploding bomb. Representatives of the extreme liberal elites said that it was inappropriate to erect a monument to the “tyrant king”, “child killer”. Disputes were transferred to the professional plane.

Assessment of the figure of Ivan Vasilievich (Grozny) gives the famous historian Andrei Fursov. A conversation with him is published by the Day TV channel.

Andrei Fursov noted that the criticism of Grozny from the current liberals is generally something:

And when Chubais said that 20-30 of millions of Russians will not fit into the market, this is normal ... This is the highest humanism.

The program addresses the topic of the selective attitude of individuals to bloodshed. It is noted that for some reason it is customary to notice and condemn the bloodshed under some rulers and somehow casually recall (if even recall) the bloodshed under other rulers.

And this is not to mention the fact that for some “historians” it is a rule of bad taste to recall the events of the times of Ivan the Terrible in Europe - what was happening on the continent, which for some reason is considered to be a model of humanism and tolerance.

The historian gives an unbiased assessment of the era of Tsar Ivan IV in the plot of TV Day, commenting on the liberals' indignation about the personality of Ivan Vasilyevich and about the installation of a monument to him:

Comments

[Vladimir16]

Liberal, as a curse for a Russian person.
Worse mate.
And the so-called liberals themselves are simply hell.
That is what they called the like in Russia.

Under Ivan the Terrible, they were planted at stake. Probably right.

[Svarog]

Grozny, Stalin .. any successful leader for the liberals is the enemy No. 1 .. and in every way they try to denigrate their names. What is the conclusion? Liberals are enemies for Russia. And what should be noted, they now rule the country ..

[Golovan Jack]

Quote: Svarog

any successful leader for the liberals is the enemy No. 1 .. and in every way they try to denigrate their names ... it should be noted that they now rule the country ...

So, "Svarog". You completely confused me:

- liberals rule the country, but erect a monument to Ivan the Terrible
- which for them liberals is the enemy No. 1
- at the same time, these same liberals (the same? Or some other?) - are indignant at the fact that the ruling liberals erect a monument to Grozny ...

That's honest - I'm in your logic of that ... somehow got lost.

And you yourself are not? Surely not? Oh, "Svarog"?

[Sergey1987]

Quote: Golovan Jack

- liberals rule the country, but erect a monument to Ivan the Terrible
- which for them liberals is the enemy No. 1
- at the same time, these same liberals (the same? Or some other?) - are indignant at the fact that the ruling liberals erect a monument to Grozny ...

This is what you wrapped so wrapped. It is unlikely that he will be able to answer such a question.

[Golovan Jack]

Quote: Sergey1987

You wrapped it so wrapped it

I just translated what "Svarog" said into a common language.

[Sergey1987]

Quote: Golovan Jack

I just translated what "Svarog" said into a common language.

Notice he didn’t answer like that. Also go minded minusanuli.

[Vladimir16]

Quote: Golovan Jack

- liberals rule the country, but erect a monument to Ivan the Terrible

Wrong observation.
Or stood on the side of the ruling, that it is impossible to erect a monument to the King.

[Golovan Jack]

Quote: Vladimir16

Wrong observation

Man, this is not for me. This is for "Svarog":

Quote: Svarog

... liberals ... now rule the country ...

And generally speaking - try to read carefully, you won’t get so much trouble

[Sergey1987]

Quote: Vladimir16

Or stood on the side of the ruling, that it is impossible to erect a monument to the King.

Which ruling side is this?

[Dart2027]

Quote: Golovan Jack

That's honest - I'm in your logic of that ... somehow got lost.

I would not say that liberals rule the country, although there are enough of them. It’s just that world politics is such that liberals need to position themselves.

[Golovan Jack]

Quote: Dart2027

such is world politics that you need to position yourself as liberals

I agree with you.

But here it is "off". I'm still very interested in how "Svarokh" will get out of its own, ahem, web

[AU Ivanov.]

Everything is simple, like a lowing: these are the wrong liberals - liberal traitors. There are still wrong Communists - they have destroyed the Union.

[Sergey1987]

Quote: Svarog

And what should be noted, they now rule the country ..

))))) But what are you? And we didn’t know. This is how you determined that they are liberals?))))

[Svarog]

Quote: Sergey1987

Quote: Svarog

And what should be noted, they now rule the country ..

))))) But what are you? And we didn’t know. This is how you determined that they are liberals?))))

[Edik]

Svarog and you do not allow such a thought that there are different liberals? You hang out the Communists, depending on how it suits you

[Russia]

Quote: Edik

Svarog and you do not allow such a thought that there are different liberals? You hang out the Communists, depending on how it suits you

He does not hang out with them, he adapts to them on all sides of his clothes. Now poor, now rich, now with work, now without work he. The main thing is to understand him and be saddened by his worries. Altona, where are you a hundred times demoted and inapplicable to the leadership of the site? A month and a half leaves the site, apparently fed from the outside, not everything worked, the troll is visible.

[Edik]

Quote: Rusland

The main thing to understand and grieve.

How badly he lives in this country

[Russia]

Quote: Edik

Quote: Rusland

The main thing to understand and grieve.

How badly he lives in this country

Edward , glad to like-minded and Russian compatriot

[Edik]

R'RёS,R ° F "RёR№ I think there are more people with critical thinking here than those who believe everything they read!

[Russia]

I agree, Edward But only here they not only read, but act, while not thinking about the consequences, not thinking about themselves or the fate of their friends and relatives. (God forbid).

[Edik]

Quote: Rusland

But only here they not only read, but also act

I sometimes rage with them! Somehow it’s not right sometimes in the world when a minority turns the life of the majority! It’s better to overdo it rather than overdo it

[Russia]

Edward, let's reason like this, the VO website is a component of the media, that is, a window and an opportunity to give the floor to everyone, but in fact, not to everyone, but to someone who is not indifferent and not inert, who is interested in promoting thoughts and judgments, as well as dissenting and seeking justice by nature, caught in temporary difficulties, losers, and well, enemies. I mean that having your family, relatives and friends, native village or town and city, wanting to raise your children and grandchildren in health and prospects for the future, you do not need to muddle and stratify society, under the motto of prosperity in the future.

[Golovan Jack]

Quote: Svarog

Putin is a liberal

"Svarog", you have already screwed up a little higher there ... do not aggravate

[Sergey1987]

Why am I not even surprised ?!)))) But Putin didn’t cite another Putin’s interview about liberalism as an example?)))))) Where does he say something else about liberalism? And not in 2014, but recently. Do you even finally realize with your own head that sometimes foreign journalists need to be told what they want to hear? Do you somehow fool around with strengths and read what liberalism, conservatism, liberal economy and conservatism in the economy (protectionism) are?

[Nasrat]

That Svarog doesn’t have consistency is tsarism for him is evil, and then Tsar Ivan 4 is for him the ideal of a ruler ...

[Golovan Jack]

Quote: Nasr

Svarog has no sequence

There is. is he consistent a whiner against the existing order and state system (c).

[Nasrat]

Quote: Golovan Jack

Quote: Nasr

Svarog has no sequence

There is. is he consistent a whiner against the existing order and state system (c).

he is a provocateur, that’s the whole explanation ..

[Golovan Jack]

Quote: Nasr

he is a provocateur

Eck you are unkind ... "Svarog" will get upset and leave this site. Or even this world

It will be boring without him ...

And so - I wrote about the same thing, KVM

[Terenin]

Quote: Golovan Jack

Quote: Nasr

Svarog has no sequence

There is. is he consistent a whiner against the existing order and state system (c).

Why did they stick to Svarog, maybe he, like a real Russian liberal, was already born with shame for his homeland

[Russia]

Quote: Terenin

Quote: Golovan Jack

Quote: Nasr

Svarog has no sequence

There is. is he consistent a whiner against the existing order and state system (c).

Why did they stick to Svarog, maybe he, like a real Russian liberal, was already born with shame for his homeland

No, at first he was happy about the sun and aa regularly asked.

[Svarog51]

I have no sense of shame for the Motherland, I am proud of the Homeland. I love her and will protect to the last drop of blood. I took the oath and will fulfill it when necessary.

[Terenin]

Quote: Svarog51

I have no sense of shame for the Motherland, I am proud of the Homeland. I love her and will protect to the last drop of blood. I took the oath and will fulfill it when necessary.

So essentially Svarog, as Heavenly Blacksmith and Great Warrior, there is no time to moan

[Svarog51]

That's what I don’t have for it. Have time to do good in more.
Gennady
My view of life is this - There are no pockets in the shroud, but human memory is worth a lot.

[Terenin]

Quote: Svarog51

There are no pockets in the shroud

You are right Sergey
There, this is superfluous ...

[Svarog51]

Well, in hell, the devil doesn’t take bribes. To get to paradise, one must do good deeds in life. Although I am baptized, I do not promote the church. There are other universal values. Conscience is one of the most important that distinguishes a person from an animal.

[Sergey1987]

Quote: Nasr

That Svarog doesn’t have consistency is tsarism for him is evil, and then Tsar Ivan 4 is for him the ideal of a ruler ...

And here there are enough of them. That liberals they have evil (while they are not even able to read who the liberals are) and at the same time were on the side of recent liberal rallies. That they are for the Communists and at the same time all but Stalin they have bad Communists.

[matross]

Quote: Svarog

Grozny, Stalin .. any successful leader for the liberals is the enemy No. 1 .. and in every way they try to denigrate their names.

There are no questions about Stalin. And what is the success of Ivan IV? Shameful for Russia Livonian war? The endless raids of the Crimeans? Leapfrog of wives, pseudo-married and manic, but unsuccessful desire to marry some of the European princesses? The organization of the oprichnina and, in fact, the genocide of their own (!) People? Own killing of a son, which eventually led to the end of the dynasty?
After Grozny, Godunov hardly brought the state to life, and even that, unfortunately, did not last long ...
So, monuments to such a "successful manager" should be erected in Poland and Lithuania, not in Russia. True, few people there understand this, as well as the fact that in Ukraine the monuments to Lenin should not be demolished, but instead of Mazepa and other riffraffs, he did a hundred times more for Ukraine ...

[Ptolemy Lag]

Read a little about the time of the reign of Ivan the Terrible, before scribbling nonsense ...

[matross]

Quote: Ptolemy Lag

Read a little

You do not be rude to me, young man. Did you read a little on Wikipedia?
I read a little more.

[Russia]

Quote: matRoss

Quote: Ptolemy Lag

Read a little

You do not be rude to me, young man. Did you read a little on Wikipedia?
I read a little more.

And what is the difference between you and the youth? Who has more or less? Naturally by reading.

[Dart2027]

Quote: matRoss

Shameful for Russia Livonian war? The endless raids of the Crimeans?

This is when Russia alone was forced to fight on several fronts at once? Yes, no matter how shamefully it turns out.

Quote: matRoss

Leapfrog wives, pseudo-wife and

And who are the pseudogens?

Quote: matRoss

The organization of the oprichnina and, in fact, the genocide of their own (!) People?

There was no genocide, but there was a struggle with the remnants of the feudal freemen.

Quote: matRoss

Own killing son

I don’t remember how many times it was discussed - an examination of the residues found that his son was poisoned.

[matross]

Russia was forced to fight on several fronts at once as a result of the sovereign’s policy. In the XNUMXth century, this management style was called voluntarism.
The pseudo-wives are the favorites whom Ivan led down the aisle after another divorce, once again blessed by the Metropolitan. There were, according to various sources, up to 10. And some of them were chosen through a kind of "beauty contests". Their fate is sad ...
The feudal liberty was liquidated by the grandfather of Grozny, the great (without exaggeration) prince and sovereign Ivan III. Here he is worthy of monuments from posterity. The division of the country into zemstvos and oprichnina and subsequent events is genocide in its pure and uncomplicated form.
Excuse me, I will not discuss the examination of the remains from the series "Everyone has known this for a long time."

[Dart2027]

Quote: matRoss

Russia was forced to fight on several fronts at once, solely as a result of

The one that was surrounded by states seeking to expand at its expense. This is England and the USA are good.

Quote: matRoss

It's pseudo favorites

Everyone had favorites and there was nothing strange about that.

Quote: matRoss

The feudal liberty was liquidated by the grandfather of Grozny, the great (without exaggeration) prince and sovereign Ivan III.

And so you do not want to say anything about

Quote: matRoss

examination of the remains

who say a little different? Or will you say that there was no seven-member war?

[matross]

Surrounded by? It’s ridiculous. Given the lack of borders from the east, as such. In the near future, under Godunov, the Siberian Khanate subjugated almost without difficulty, will expand Russian possessions incredibly ...
Ivan IV, later nicknamed Grozny, after conquering the Kazan Khanate in the first period of rule (put a plus sign), quarreled with all European neighbors because of an absurd policy and got involved in the war, having no means and opportunities for victory. In addition to one, an alliance with the Livonian Order, which was concluded, but the master asked for money for arming the troops. Ivan was extremely stingy and gave little money. Bottom line - the Livonians fell under Lithuania. The failures of the diplomacy of Grozny, who considered himself superior to the rest of the European monarchs (except England, he was an ardent Anglophile) - are terrifying.
Regarding the favorites. Yes, everyone had it. But not a single monarch in history had the trouble of marrying each, divorcing the previous one. Repeatedly. Orthodox sovereign !!!

[Dart2027]

Quote: matRoss

Surrounded by? It’s ridiculous. Given the lack of borders from the east, as such.

Which did not interfere with all other neighbors from the south and west.

Quote: matRoss

quarreled with all European neighbors due to ridiculous policies

And what exactly was the absurdity?

Quote: matRoss

But not a single monarch in history had the trouble of marrying each, divorcing the previous one. Repeatedly.

Truth? It has been established for certain that there were 6 wives, 3 of them died, and one remained a widow. Only 2 were divorced, but not killed, but tonsured as a nun.

Quote: matRoss

In addition to one, an alliance with the Livonian Order, which was concluded, but the master asked for money for arming the troops. Ivan was extremely stingy and gave little money.

What about paying tribute to the order and trade blockade?

[matross]

The format of the comments does not allow a full discussion on such a complex and extensive topic.
But it’s interesting if the article had a presentation - the liberals are going to erect a monument to the bloody ghoul Ivan the Terrible, how would the discussion go?

[Dart2027]

Quote: matRoss

The format of the comments does not allow a full discussion on such a complex and extensive topic.

Others are somehow coping.

[matross]

I am "somehow" not very interested. However, thank you for your opinion. Moreover, as you can see, he found support among the masses ... Although this was certainly predictable.
I really don’t understand how to justify in 10-20 lines the opinion of Ivan the Terrible. It is ridiculous to rush into each other with fragmentary facts. To write you an entire article in PM, too ...

[Dart2027]

Quote: matRoss

It is ridiculous to rush into each other with fragmentary facts

And what facts? You can read about his wives (their number and deaths) even on Wiki. About the death of his son, similarly (The Kremlin’s chief archaeologist, Doctor of Historical Sciences T. D. Panova writes: “... what causes such an increased content (to put it mildly) of mercury, arsenic, and lead - one can only guess”). What else? Reason? The fact that the prince was poisoned immediately shows that the opinion that the king was paranoid, to put it mildly, does not correspond to reality. Wars with neighbors? So this is a constant European tradition - all together to go to Russia / Russia / USSR.

[matross]

Quote: Dart2027

permanent European tradition - all together to go to Russia / Russia / USSR.

This is a simplification and an owl on the globe.

Quote: Dart2027

You can read about his wives (their number and deaths) even on Wiki. About the death of a son, similarly

Please read anything other than Wikipedia.

[Dart2027]

Quote: matRoss

This is a simplification.

This is our story, the situation when Europe united against Russia is repeated regularly.

Quote: matRoss

read anything besides wikipedia

I read, just the simplest example.

[matross]

Quote: Dart2027

the situation when Europe united against Russia is repeated regularly.

Yes, such moments have happened. But in later times. In pre-Mongol Russia, during the period of the invasion and Russia, there was never a state, during Ivan the Terrible - well ... if you consider Lithuania and Sweden as a united Europe) Actually, the first European campaign against Russia is Napoleon. In the future, I agree, we can talk about a bad tradition. Although Russia has never been so alone as it is now. Unfortunately.

[Dart2027]

Quote: matRoss

well ... if you consider Lithuania and Sweden as a united Europe)

And also Poland (Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth), which was a large and strong state, and Turkey (although this is not Europe), which was also an empire, and then Russia was much smaller than the current one.

Quote: matRoss

Although Russia has never been so alone as it is now.

As one emperor said, the allies are the army and navy.

[matross]

more Poland

Poland in part. Silent later - Godunov, False Dmitry, Time of Troubles ... Are we talking about Ivan the Terrible?

and turkey

And Turkey is much later. In the time of Grozny, she was overlord of the Crimean Gireev, but she didn’t fight directly with Russia, Astrakhan squabbles can be ignored.

[Dart2027]

Quote: matRoss

Poland in part. Silent later

The Russian-Polish war of 1577-1582.

Quote: matRoss

During the time of Grozny, she was overlord of the Crimean Giree, but she didn’t directly fight Russia directly

There were Turks at the Battle of Molodi, and no one could guarantee that the Sultan would not decide to continue the war directly.
Actually, the intervention of Poland and Turkey led to the fact that the war was unsuccessful - Sweden, Denmark and the Livonian Order could be defeated, but the intervention of two more states made victory impossible, the enemy had more resources.

[matross]

We are bogged down in particulars. All the wars that Grozny waged on the western borders were launched by him. The results are either deplorable or ridiculous. I could not even recapture Narva.
With the Ottoman Empire, we have almost a consensus) created tension from the south, no more

[Dart2027]

Quote: matRoss

were started by him

Yes, how to say. The Russian-Swedish war of 1554-1557 was won, and he did not start it. Livonian won was caused by a number of reasons - the failure to pay Yuryeva tribute, an obstacle to direct trade with Europe, the likelihood of Livonia entering Poland.

Quote: matRoss

We are bogged down in particulars.

There is such a saying - the devil is in the details.

Quote: matRoss

created tension from the south

and she was a considerable force to guard the borders from raids.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Svarog

Grozny, Stalin .. any successful leader for the liberals is the enemy №1

Everything is just the opposite, Grozny and Stalin are our heroes, and liberals are enemies.

[Fraracol_2]

Do you have a selection for bloodiness and indifference to your own population, or for some other "merit"?

[Anatoly 288]

They just forget that behind the poisoning of the Sovereign, there was an English bitch

[Puss in Boots]

This word will soon become abusive, I think so

[iConst]

Quote: Cat Racecourse

This word will soon become abusive, I think so

The current "liberals" have nothing to do with the idea of ​​liberalism. This is a substituted concept regarding the original meaning. Now it is more appropriate to call such "liberast".

[Vladimir16]

Come on.
You are trying to imagine black as white.
Liberalism, liberals, liberalists - one color.

Free from conscience, from the foundations of society, from a culture of behavior, from maritime foundations.
Some of them are proud that they are pederasts.
One word is devils.

[Fraracol_2]

It seems you did not suspect:
Liberalism proclaims the rights and freedoms of each person as the supreme value and establishes them as the legal basis of social and economic order. Moreover, the ability of the state and the church to influence the life of society is limited by the constitution. The most important freedoms in modern liberalism are the freedom to speak out publicly, the freedom to choose a religion, the freedom to choose representatives in fair and free elections. In economic terms, the principles of liberalism are the inviolability of private property, freedom of trade and business. In legal terms, the principles of liberalism are the rule of law over the will of rulers and the equality of all citizens before the law, regardless of their wealth, position and influence.
Do you dislike something here? Or is all this not for you and your kind? And further:
The ideological antithesis of liberalism is authoritarian ideas and concepts - those that deny freedom and human rights, the democratic system of power and which instead argue for leadership, the state’s priority over man and the inevitability of forceful coercion. Without a leader there is no country, without a country there is no leader - this is a primitive construct of authoritarianism, excluding a person and operating with abstract concepts of people, power, and state. Authoritarianism is the soil on which dictatorships and totalitarian regimes sprout, the poisonous fruits of nationalism, racism and xenophobia flourish.

[Dart2027]

Quote: Fraancol_2

the priority of the state over man and the inevitability of force coercion

But there is no other way. In real life, attempts to go against the state are suppressed in all countries.

[mikh-korsakov]

Yeah Paul! I was especially amused by the statement of equality before the law. A country guy who stole a motorcycle from a neighbor from drunken eyes to ride and broke it and killed a neighbor’s goat will answer in full, although he will formally be appointed a lawyer in the person of an elderly lady, exhausted by life, if someone steals a billion, he will find a dear lawyer, who, with his skillful lie, will lie from three boxes and prove to the court that the person did not steal anything, but on the contrary everyone owes him. By the way, remember the processes of the People’s Volunteers with the participation of the famous lawyer - the ladies wept! Any liberal will answer me, but this is only in Russia ... But no, the inequality of opportunities to defend the fundamental flaw of liberalism. inherent in all countries.

[Nikolai Grek]

Quote: Fraancol_2

Liberalism proclaims the rights and freedoms of everyone

here’s the catch ... the fact is that this has been the most true liberalism for decades, no one has ever seen ... if it finally existed !!!

[Bobrick]

Good evening
Let me ask a stupid question to this statement:

The ideological antithesis of liberalism is authoritarian ideas and concepts - those that deny freedom and human rights, the democratic system of power and which instead argue for leadership, the state’s priority over man and the inevitability of forceful coercion.

Why should authoritarianism necessarily reject human rights and freedoms?
Human rights and their freedoms are likewise limited by the constitution of the state.

And the bottleneck:

In economic terms, the principles of liberalism are the inviolability of private property, freedom of trade and business.

At the same time, the principle of security (that is, one can die of hunger, it turns out) is not set as a goal for citizens.

PS

Liberalism proclaims the rights and freedoms of each person as the supreme value and establishes them as the legal basis of social and economic order.

It is not clear from this phrase who a person is. Here you can come up with such a formulation of "man" that 80-90% of representatives of the species Homo sapiens sapiens will be a commodity of free trade and entrepreneurship.

[Vend]

Let them be indignant. Tsar Ivan the Terrible, undeservedly forgotten and slandered.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Wend

Let them be indignant. Tsar Ivan the Terrible, undeservedly forgotten and slandered.

They are alien to everything Russian, Russian history, Russian heroes.

[1536]

Ivan IV - the first Russian Tsar, crowned kingdom in 1547. Since then, Moscow has become the center of the Orthodox world, and the Russian state - the successor of Byzantium (the Roman Empire).
This infuriates those who declared Ivan IV a fiend of hell, although in the same England obscurantists, flayers and stranglers among the sovereigns were not less, but more, and their crimes were distinguished by greater cruelty than the crimes of the most inveterate criminals of that time. And in France it was the same. Remember the same Louis XI, who was very fond of putting his enemies in iron cages, where it was impossible to straighten up to his full height. Imagine sitting in a basement without sunlight for five or six years in such a cage, walking around, not washing, not getting a haircut, eating scraps and gruel ... And this is France, an enlightened country. True, due to the totality of the crimes of their royal dynasties in 1789, the rebellious people of Paris destroyed the royal prison Bastille, which became a kind of "Aurora's shot" for the French, which marked the beginning of a series of bloody events in France.

[Pravodel]

Well, thank God, finally, it happened! Less than 500 years later, they erected a monument to the sovereign, who annexed Kazan, Astrakhan, expanded the borders in Siberia: under him began the campaign of Yermak, founded many cities, established a zemstvo, thanks to which Russia was able to get out of the turmoil in the 17th century.
For liberals, Ivan the Terrible is worse than any ruler in Russia, in Russia, unless they can only compare Stalin with him. Strong power is based on the people, and the fact that Ivan the Terrible was called by the people is what the monument in Alexandrov attests to is a terrible curse from which any liberal liberal immediately starts to have toothaches, incontinence of everything and everything, seizures and hysteria come ... Here’s the criterion of hatred towards Russia: as soon as someone in a fit of blackening of Russia begins to saliva, scream, hysteria, this is a liberal who is a traitor to Russia and its people.

"People-State-Fatherland"- this is the slogan of every patriot of Russia. A strong state, a united people, a prosperous Fatherland for centuries, which cannot be broken by internal and external enemies.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: The Truth

Here is the criterion of hatred of Russia: as soon as someone in a fit of blackening of Russia begins to spit, scream, and hysteria, this is a liberal who is a traitor to Russia and its people.

Liberasty is a cancerous tumor on the body of Russia.

[DNS-a42]

Quote: The Truth

"People-State-Fatherland" is the slogan of every Russian patriot. A strong state, a united people, a prosperous country for centuries, which cannot be broken by internal and external enemies.

All according to the precepts of Mussolini. A strong capitalist state, people in a stall, enemies around.

[Egoza]

Quote: Vladimir16

Under Ivan the Terrible, they were planted at stake. Probably right.

Well, that's why they are screaming! Suddenly, who will take over his methods!

[alavrin]

Liberal hysteria is measured in Gozman.)

[Aleksandre]

Quote: alavrin

Liberal hysteria is measured in Gozman.)

In the tons of tons.

[iConst]

Quote: alavrin

Liberal hysteria is measured in Gozman.)

And also in sytiny - 100 gozmans = 1 sytin.

And there is one thousandth - Ksenia.

[Ponchik78]

This is in monetized terms. And if in the emotional, then in the amnuela you need to measure. Pancake! How can he scream!)))

[Mavrikiy]

Quote: alavrin

Liberal hysteria is measured in Gozman.)

A possible option is in swoops, poznik.

[Xnumx vis]

Nearby should be a monument to the Grand Duke Svyatoslav Igorevich! The screech will be even bigger and louder !!

[The leader of the Redskins]

Basically, at least the story is kept. In Aleksandrov, the Kremlin of Ivan the Terrible. So what is "plus" here ... Well, about the historical significance of the character ... Who is without sin? To whom, then, to sculpt monuments? In Berlin, Frederick the Great and Karl Marx normally "get along". And in Budapest, all the kings, Reagan (!), Stella to Soviet soldiers liberators and many other significant personalities!

[rocket757]

Representatives of the extreme liberal elites said that it was inappropriate to erect a monument to the “king

Against the background of the geyropeyskih monarchs of that period, he does not stand out!
Here let them try in a geyrop to the monuments of THEIR monarchs to spur their dandies .... here it will be !!! Yes, he will be a fool and all business!

[GKS 2111]

Representatives of the extreme liberal elites said that it was inappropriate to erect a monument to the “tyrant king”, “child killer”.
And when Chubais said that 20-30 of millions of Russians will not fit into the market, this is normal ... This is the highest humanism.
That's really really a policy of double standards. Regarding the "tyrant". During his reign, let the liberals compare the number of those executed in Russia and in the same beloved Europe, for example, many times more.
“But let's ask ourselves: how many people were sent to the world by Western European contemporaries of Ivan the Terrible: the Spanish kings Charles V and Philip II, the king of England Henry VIII and the French king Charles IX? It turns out that they cruelly executed hundreds of thousands of people. So, for example, it was during the time synchronous to the reign of Ivan the Terrible - from 1547 to 1584, in the Netherlands aloneunder the rule of Charles V and Philip II, "the number of victims ... reached 100 thousand."

[tihonmarine]

Quote: GKS 2111

Regarding the "tyrant." During his reign, let the liberals compare the number of those executed in Russia and in the same beloved Europe, for example, many times more.

Yes, not at times, but hundreds of times. On Bartholomew’s night in France, about 30 people died, at the same time Ivan the Terrible ruled. And how much the ruler of the Netherlands, the Duke of Alba, destroyed, the liberals do not want to know this. Or can it cite data from the early 000s in Russia?

[Andrey Chistyakov]

Do not yell. Still not hoarse. Vaughn E. Gaidar was put on the territory of some institute. Let him and pray.

[anjey]

The monument is worthy of his grandfather .A. Gaidar.

According to the memoirs of the battalion commander, who became one of the heroes of the report, Gaidar went on the attack with his fighters and even got a trophy machine.

[Andrey Chistyakov]

Quote: anjey

The monument is worthy of his grandfather .A. Gaidar.

According to the memoirs of the battalion commander, who became one of the heroes of the report, Gaidar went on the attack with his fighters and even got a trophy machine.

Where did I write about my grandfather?

[anjey]

I’m not about you, but about the heroic grandfather of Yegor Liber Just as opposed to the grandson and his monument from your words, what do you dislike?

[anjey]

It is interesting how the modern establishment of Russia would react to the new monuments to Stepan Razin, Emelyan Pugachev, Salavat Yulaev, Lenin, Stalin ??

[thinker]

And here on December 21st and revered

In the Central region of Volgograd on December 12 began the installation of a monument to Joseph Stalin in honor of his 140th birthday, which will be solemnly opened on the leader’s birthday - December 21.

https://v1.ru/text/gorod/66397498/

[lucul]

In the city of Alexandrov a few days ago, a monument was opened to Ivan IV the Terrible.

Hmm ...
Typical gamma male, Semitic appearance. Well, at least the legs were made by European ones.
Nothing changes .......

[Mordvin 3]

Ginger has to put up a monument. With a voucher in one hand.

[Slavs]

I agree. But the voucher should not be in the hand ...

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Slavs

. But the voucher should not be in the hand ..

He has a bag of vouchers What are two Volga ?!

[Livonetc]

Quote: mordvin xnumx

Quote: Slavs

. But the voucher should not be in the hand ..

He has a bag of vouchers What are two Volga ?!

He should put the whole bag where he needed to mount it.
He’s a monument, he’s not hurt.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Livonetc

He’s a monument, he’s not hurt.

As the one who goes into reconnaissance said, Chubais is a good guy.

[Basarev]

This is TV Day, the famous hotbed of propaganda. They found someone to take seriously. To prohibit it ... And it is better to completely ban all forms of propaganda, to equate it with anti-state activity. And vice versa, closely bring up critical thinking from a young age. Neither ideology, nor propaganda, nor a national idea, nor even religion is needed - these are all means of manipulation and fooling. Need only independent, independent thinking, the guiding light should be doubt and skepticism. To all. In order for everyone to observe the three great principles of critical thinking - do not take anything on faith, do not recognize any authorities and rely solely on the power of your own mind. And also - not to build illusions, to prevent idols and not to succumb to the mainstream.

[mikh-korsakov]

Our authorities have nothing to do. It would be better to improve the economy than to erect monuments. And the liberals - just give them a reason to buzz. They are always against, the only light for them is a trip to Europe as an excuse to sigh about how good it is in Europe - and, they say, in "this country", the people are not the same, and the climate is terrible, further down the list.

[Ugolek]

Ivan the Terrible is the founder of a powerful state, our symbol. And no liberal trash has the right to defile his name.

[knn54]

For the period 1569-1571. a plague struck Russia. The western and northwestern regions, including Novgorod, were particularly affected. The infection killed about 300.000 inhabitants of Russia. In Moscow itself in 1569, 600 people died a day - the same as, allegedly, Grozny executed every day in Novgorod. The victims of the plague formed the basis of the myth of the "Novgorod pogrom".
Under Ivan, Russia rose from its knees and straightened its shoulders from the Baltic to Siberia. Upon assuming the throne, John inherited 2,8 million square meters. km, and as a result of his rule, the territory of the state almost doubled - to 5,4 million square meters. km - a little more than the rest of Europe. During the same time, the population grew by 30-50% and amounted to 10-12 million.
Under Ivan, the remnants of feudal fragmentation were finally destroyed, And isn't THIS what infuriates the descendants of "appanage princelings" and Aglitsky grant eaters most of all?

[Ru_Na]

Any strong ruler in Russia / Russia, under which our state developed, and the enemies were afraid of us, for the liberals a tyrant, a murderer, but what about their beloved BNE in which the majority of the population lived in poverty, and the country was on the verge of collapse ?! Hypocrisy comes through from the lips of our liberals !!!

[Andrey Chistyakov]

Quote: Ru_Na

Any strong ruler in Russia / Russia, under which our state developed, and the enemies were afraid of us, for the liberals a tyrant, a murderer, but what about their beloved BNE in which the majority of the population lived in poverty, and the country was on the verge of collapse ?! Hypocrisy comes through from the lips of our liberals !!!

And no one like her all the time I forget this word ... But it is tolerance.

[Fraracol_2]

And now, how does a large part of the population live?

[Pavel57]

The Romanovs also did not like Grozny.

[Dart2027]

Quote: Pavel57

The Romanovs also did not like Grozny.

Well, this is just understandable. He was Rurikovich, that is, the heir to the old dynasty. Although the Romanovs were notable, they were no longer considered heirs of Rurik, so it was in their interests not to refute the myths about the latter (I know that his son Fyodor was also king, but he was king only by title) a great representative of the previous dynasty.

Princes of the Varangian reigning branch
Last I am a descendant. My family together
With me will die.
(Alexey Tolstoy "Tsar Fyodor Ioannovich")

[Andrey Chistyakov]

Quote: Pavel57

The Romanovs also did not like Grozny.

The last of the Romanovs renounced power ...

[Pavel57]

He is not the last, they are trying to impose the Romanovs on us from the 90s again.
"They are preparing the royal throne for us again."

[Andrey Chistyakov]

Quote: Pavel57

He is not the last, they are trying to impose the Romanovs on us from the 90s again.
"They are preparing the royal throne for us again."

They can "try" as much as they want ...

[Livonetc]

Late in the day are indignant.
This is the third monument.
Before that, monuments were erected in Moscow and Orel.

[tihonmarine]

And when Chubais said that 20-30 of millions of Russians will not fit into the market, this is normal ... This is the highest humanism.

Just scum.

[Fraracol_2]

Are you sure of a similar statement by Chubais? Various resources and commentators happily duplicate this from the words of just one person, V.P. Polevanov, who allegedly said this to Chubais in a private conversation. And that’s all. Moreover, given their difficult relationship, I would not have considered this any real evidence.

[Undecim]

Some kind of "liberal psychosis" is cultivated in the media. I would not be surprised if soon the diagnosis of "liberalophobia" appears in psychiatry. Directly according to Vysotsky, but instead of Jews, liberals are to blame for all the troubles. At the same time, the overwhelming majority of hamsters have no idea about liberalism at all, but they condemn it to the point of blood in the pillow.

[Fraracol_2]

"Heart of a Dog" comes to mind ...

[Nikolai Grek]

Quote: Undecim

Any strong ruler in Russia / Russia, under which our state developed, and

patamuchta "everything is mixed up" ... the Americans present themselves as the main liberals in the universe ... that the people are indignant seeing such an example !!! and true liberalism, perhaps, never was !!!

[Sapsan136]

And who, in their opinion, need to put monuments in the Russian Federation ?! Chubais, von Lampe, Skuro, Novodvorskaya? Let the Yankees erect monuments to them, but in Russia they give Mazepa’s only a Judah medal!

[Yuri Mikhailovsky]

Isn’t it time for Felix Edmundovich to be returned to the Lubyanka?

[Simon]

Liberals only destroyed the Union, and Ivan the Terrible built the state. So that he did many times more than all the liberals put together. They only know how to break up, and good rulers are collected by the statesmen. With liberals, the state withers, and with a good ruler, the state becomes strong.

[Terenin]

Quote: Svarog51

Although I am baptized, I do not promote the church.

I have long understood that the Faith and covenants of the Holy Fathers is one thing, and the church, this is a little different.

[Diviz]

Only history is nothing more. I propose to put another monument to Prince Rurik. Interestingly, he probably will not put a pagan. And then you yourself understand the nickname of Grozny, even then the infection spread worse than the plague. To be honest, we focused on the red and white. Red Kremlin in Moscow, White, in V. Novgorod. And who is to blame? Italians. Again, someone is to blame; no need to look for the guilty, but only to study what happened before history. And let's create a project for the study and restoration of ancient cities in Siberia.

[DNS-a42]

I am glad for Grozny, I deserve it. And "illiterate citizens" who assess this historical figure from modern positions (morality), let them howl further.

Nevertheless, I do not like the tendency observed in recent years to hang all dogs on bad liberals, after all, not a word is said about the system that they represent - capitalism. If we abandon capitalism, but remove liberalism (for all its wretchedness for the people), then we will have to live with conservatism, planned drifting towards fascism. There is no third.

[nikvic46]

A monument is needed in order to preserve memory. One wants to put up a monument to a person who has increased the interests of the country. Another is a person whom not only many do not know, but others do not want to know at all. In my opinion, the personality of Dolgoruky is clearly exaggerated in comparison with the youngest son of Alexander Nevsky -Daniel. It is not visible in the cities of the monuments to Elizabeth Petrovna. Although the main force remains in science.

[tovarich-andrey.62goncharov]

The more monuments to such kings, the faster (I hope) the Eltsin Center in Russia will be demolished ..
.