The "lunar" spacecraft "Orel" found "excess weight"

175

The materials of the RSC Energia say that the spacecraft Orel (formerly “Federation”) under development has a mass that is too high to fly to the moon.

This kind of information publishes RIA Newsreferring to materials from the rocket and space corporation. Recall that it is RSC Energia that is engaged in the development of the Eagle, intended for flights to the Earth’s natural satellite.



The reports noted that the mass exceeds the permissible parameters by almost 2,5 tons. At the same time, the so-called “breakdown of the excess of masses” is published by the individual components of the spacecraft. So, the Orla cable network is heavier than the permissible by more than 200 kg, the life support system of astronauts is by 109 kg, the power plant is by approximately 107 kg, etc.

The experts evaluated and found that with these parameters the Eagle will weigh 22343 kg, although initially the value in 19848 kg was written in the documentation. Such a significant excess of mass (and this is 12,5%) simply will not allow delivering the spacecraft to the planned orbit, since the developers of the rockets (including the superheavy - Yenisei) are guided by those mass parameters that were indicated in the initial technical task.

At the moment, only the parameters of the Angara-A5P launch vehicle are capable of allowing the Orla to enter low Earth orbit. In this case, we are not talking about the delivery of the ship with its “forming” mass to the Moon; we need to work to reduce the mass parameters.

It should be noted that the first launch tests of the "Federation" were scheduled for the 2015 year. Since then, 4 years have passed, and plans have been shifted many times, moreover, it was decided to rename the spaceship, as "there must be a masculine name."
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    1. +14
      13 December 2019 06: 03
      Well, what is it. I do not want to believe that all RSC Energia engineers are victims of the exam, there was already a similar situation with the transport Il 112V. "The problem of overweight Il-112V arose due to the lack of designers - many specialists left the enterprise due to low salaries," the chief designer explained then, but now it seems to have been decided.
      As far as I understand, mass should be calculated at the stage of early design.
      1. +41
        13 December 2019 06: 10
        scheduled for 2015.
        "However, during the journey, the dog could grow up" ....
        1. +23
          13 December 2019 06: 16
          And they say everyone is stealing. They are lying! They still drag their own.)))
          1. -1
            13 December 2019 12: 48
            Well, yes, they say, they "steal", but it turns out, "they bring" .... Yes
            1. -1
              13 December 2019 18: 32
              Exactly! Alcohol is not leaked!
          2. -1
            14 December 2019 08: 33
            You're not right! They are all dragging into the house! Here is an example: Family address of Yuri Urlichich in Houston
            The deputy head of Roscosmos did not declare his daughter’s land plot for $ 150 thousand and his wife’s villa for $ 1,2 million in Florida http://www.compromat.ru/page_40823.htm
            They have no time to do space! Roni are buying property in the damned USA!
        2. 0
          13 December 2019 18: 29
          Well, the name was invented! Eagle - like THEM! Remained cosmonates in poly ... aats to rename. It will definitely fly now. Could it be that the program was from the May decrees?
      2. +16
        13 December 2019 06: 22
        Well what is it. I do not want to believe that all engineers of RSC Energia are victims of the exam

        what is the cry to arrange? Quite a working moment. The mass of the product is determined by the statement of work. A real mass appears when the KMD is ready. Next is the development of TR for fine-tuning in accordance with the statement of work. This was not discovered at the time when the device was already entering the orbit of the moon ...
        1. 0
          13 December 2019 06: 26
          "What to arrange a cry? It is quite a working moment. The mass of the product is determined by the technical specification. The real mass appears when the CMD is already ready. Next comes the development of the TR for fine-tuning in accordance with the technical specification. This was not found at the moment when the device was already entering the orbit of the moon .. . "

          So I do not argue, but that's just the development of a new Russian spacecraft "Eagle" (formerly called "Federation") for flights to the Moon has been underway for ten years, but we hear about the advantage only now
          1. +23
            13 December 2019 06: 30
            Quote: Military Commissar77
            we hear about the advantage only now

            In the Union, you would never have heard of him at all.

            In general, IMHO, the excessive "publicity" inherited from "perestroika" is still more harmful than useful.
            1. -3
              13 December 2019 06: 38
              Quote: Golovan Jack
              Quote: Military Commissar77
              we hear about the advantage only now

              In the Union, you would never have heard of him at all.

              In general, IMHO, the excessive "publicity" inherited from "perestroika" is still more harmful than useful.



              "Every mistake has a first and last name" Joseph Stalin

              It is a pity that today's businessmen want to hide mistakes, under the Union we would go to Kolyma to retrain
              1. +5
                13 December 2019 06: 41
                Quote: Military Commissar77
                It is a pity that today's businessmen want to hide mistakes, under the Union we would go to Kolyma to retrain

                So I say - excessive publicity is harmful. So you got excited ... although you don’t own the subject, and you don’t influence the result. But already drive the foam.

                The person explained to you above: what happened is quite a working moment. And it really is ... buddy request
                1. -6
                  13 December 2019 06: 53
                  Quote: Golovan Jack
                  Quote: Military Commissar77
                  It is a pity that today's businessmen want to hide mistakes, under the Union we would go to Kolyma to retrain

                  So I say - excessive publicity is harmful. So you got excited ... although you don’t own the subject, and you don’t influence the result. But already drive the foam.

                  The person explained to you above: what happened is quite a working moment. And it really is ... buddy request


                  I do not drive foam as you put it. I express my opinion, for this this forum exists. I did not say that I work at RSC Energia. It is not necessary to work there in order to have an opinion. You are by no means the designer of spacecraft in order to state categorically that the moment is working. If the worker, why do you want to hide him and complain about publicity. Sorry if offended by anything.
                  1. +9
                    13 December 2019 06: 59
                    Quote: Military Commissar77
                    If a worker, why do you want to hide him and complain about publicity

                    You did not understand. Personally, I don't care if this "moment" is hidden or thrown out on the forum for "discussion" by amateurs.

                    I just know the reaction of these amateurs. This reaction cannot contain any construct, by definition.

                    A hollow chatter to me personally - disgusts. Something like this request
                    1. +1
                      13 December 2019 09: 39
                      I apologize, and your sheets of ranting even in this thread - this is not empty idle talk?
                      What good did you say? On the topic of the article? What can be learned from your comment?
                      Besides the inexplicable desire in any way to whitewash the power, its miscalculations and mistakes?
                      Publicity, then this is bad?
                      Is it bad when people find out about fraud and embezzlement in Roscosmos? Is it bad when they find out that the lion's share of the Angara project apparatus is of no use to anyone, because it only duplicates the Soyuz and Irtysh apparatus? Have you already spent the money for the development and saw it successfully?
                      But you can’t talk about it! This is too much publicity! Cut money should go in silence, so as not to injure the gentle souls of Russians.
                      Is it not with your submission that the authorities are already probing the mood of Russians about disconnecting Russia from the world Internet? At the insistent requests of the comrades of the Golovan Jack community?
                      For excessive publicity and objective information are harmful to the Russian? And so, you see, we’ll lock ourselves in our narrow little world. We will receive strictly dosed information. From which we will learn that the Russians have already won the World Cup and landed on the Sun.
                      1. 0
                        13 December 2019 10: 22
                        Quote: Graf56
                        even in this thread - this is not empty chatter?

                        Like yours. The same empty chatter.
                        1. +3
                          13 December 2019 16: 00
                          Quote: ultra
                          Like yours. The same empty chatter.

                          I think the remark Graf56 (Vladimir) is just the case. Unfortunately sad
                        2. -2
                          13 December 2019 16: 07
                          Quote: Mityai65
                          I think the remark Graf56 (Vladimir) is just in the case

                          What are you talking about, my dear?

                          Graf56 there he invented a bunch of horror stories, and gave them all as my thoughts belay

                          For this, in fact, they hit with candlesticks. Are you also one of those?
                        3. +8
                          13 December 2019 16: 14
                          Quote: Golovan Jack
                          What are you talking about, my dear?

                          You need to create less verbal spam in the chat, which is not related to the topic of the heading article. I'm about it sad
                          There are many articles on politician in VO, and they can be used (and even desirable) as you wish ...
                          And then why? This is highly specialized news. There is almost nothing to analyze specialists in the political struggle of the Nanai boys.
                        4. -4
                          13 December 2019 16: 22
                          Quote: Mityai65
                          You need to create less verbal spam in chat

                          Clear. Pleased for the cleanliness. Go on.
                        5. +3
                          13 December 2019 16: 30
                          Quote: Mityai65
                          Mityai65 (Dmitry)

                          You know, I fully support you! But there is one thing! When discussing any topic, one of the well-known figures jumps out like hell out of a snuff-box and starts yelling! The meaning and squeezing of their yell: I’m guarding the guards! it shakes me when people are brazenly lying! It's called creating public opinion!
                        6. +1
                          13 December 2019 17: 08
                          Quote: Golovan Jack
                          For this, in fact, they hit with candlesticks.

                          It is strange that you are still alive buddy. laughing
                2. +2
                  13 December 2019 06: 55
                  Quote: Golovan Jack
                  So I say excessive publicity is harmful

                  Golovan, honestly, I even feel sorry for you sometimes. Every day, your work in supporting the government is becoming more and more difficult. The number of dissatisfied grows in proportion to the decline in incomes (I really hope that this does not concern you and your salary is indexed annually). Neither Rosstat nor propaganda help. The last thing left is to ban publicity, turn off the Internet and start cheburnet instead. Then we will all be happy, almost like North Koreansfellow.
                  “Our spaceships will stop falling, and they will only plow the expanses of the universe.”
                  - Our aircraft carriers will stop burning, they will only cut through the oceans as part of a squadron of previously unprecedented power.
                  - "Our" government will stop stealing and lying, but will work only for the good of the people and the country.
                  - Putin will become even younger, pull up, trickier and start flying not with cranes, but ON cranes.
                  Eh, it would be more likely that the current thieves led us into this fabulous future.
                  1. +3
                    13 December 2019 07: 04
                    Quote: kjhg
                    your job of supporting power is getting harder and harder

                    Young man, if your job is to shake this very "power", and I think differently than you do (personally, I generally doubt that you are think), it doesn’t mean at all that kicking you is my job laughing

                    Quote: kjhg
                    The number of dissatisfied increases in proportion to the decline in income

                    And this is the "overweight Eagle"? Was there a pure reason to insert the phrase, standard? wink

                    Quote: kjhg
                    I hope that this does not concern you and your salary is indexed annually

                    Not further than today’s certification at the end of the year. Maybe they’ll throw it ... but not very much.

                    Quote: kjhg
                    The last thing left is to ban publicity

                    You said that, not me. More accurate. You also need to be able to troll, you do not know how. Not given request
                    1. +3
                      13 December 2019 07: 13
                      Quote: Golovan Jack
                      Maybe they’ll throw it ... but not very much.

                      Champagne? We at the factory on New Year's Eve were given a couple of bubbles of vodara, champagne, a couple of sticks of sausage and candy. Then he worked with a bourgeois, he was born a pair of tangerines and a bubble of champagne. lol
                      1. +1
                        13 December 2019 07: 15
                        Quote: Mordvin 3
                        Champagne?

                        Not ... a monthly salary. Purely for decency - "behold, you have not been forgotten and we appreciate" laughing

                        It wouldn’t be health - it would have gone one and a half times more, although now it’s easy.
                    2. -7
                      13 December 2019 07: 24
                      Quote: Golovan Jack
                      Young man

                      Thanks, Golovan, thanks. All the same, not only women are pleased to accept compliments. And what? I really still don’t think of myself as an old man and I have enough strength to overcome many young ones wink.
                      Quote: Golovan Jack
                      if you have a job - to shake this very "power", and I think not so, it does not mean at all that kicking you is my job
                      And thank you for these words. Although this is not my WORK, but at least I am not ashamed of my grandchildren that I do nothing to change this power.
                      (personally, I generally doubt what you think)
                      Well, why so rude, Golovan. You can thinner. All the same, you received the best education in the world, Soviet.
                      Quote: Golovan Jack
                      And this is the "overweight Eagle"?
                      The most immediate. You will not invite specialists from the space industry, designers, engineers, and astronauts from abroad. They need to be taught and prepared starting from school, with which we have, to put it mildly, some problems.
                      Quote: Golovan Jack
                      Not further than today’s certification at the end of the year. Maybe they’ll throw it ... but not very much.

                      Glad for you personally. But someone was supposed to retire at the end of the year, but now he won’t. he will need to work and work. And someone will die, not having seen this same pension. According to the results of the year, someone's salary will be lowered or dismissed altogether. But do not worry about them. The main thing is that you feel good.
                      Quote: Golovan Jack
                      You also need to be able to troll, you do not know how. Not given

                      I agree. I do not know how. Although, if I seriously took up this ... Who knows, who knows ... I also received the best Soviet education in the world wink
                      1. +8
                        13 December 2019 07: 32
                        Quote: kjhg
                        You will not invite specialists from the space industry, designers, engineers, and astronauts from abroad. They need to be taught and prepared starting from school ...

                        Well, about "from school" - you turned it down ... I really got

                        Quote: kjhg
                        the best education in the world, Soviet

                        , and I remember - no one "from school" prepared anyone. Even then.

                        As for the training of specialists - and what, have we stopped preparing them? MAI - MEPhI - MVTU and others - closed?

                        I missed something in this life, probably laughing

                        Quote: kjhg
                        someone should have retired at the end of the year, but now they won’t. he will need to work and work

                        Well, that concerns me too. I don’t seem to whine yet ...

                        Quote: kjhg
                        someone will die without seeing this same pension. Someone’s salary will be lowered or dismissed at the end of the year

                        You suggest me sprinkle ashes on my head and go into binge? It is unlikely.

                        Quote: kjhg
                        Although this is not my WORK, but at least I am not ashamed of my grandchildren that I do nothing to change this power

                        And ... from ideological ones, it means ... so it’s even worse.

                        You see la: your chatter in the Internet will lead to a "change of power" ... hardly. And neither you nor others from your company have the brains or the strength to work constructively.

                        So galimy trolling - "yours" (c), continue ... I'm not interested in you anymore. Buddy wink
                    3. -8
                      13 December 2019 08: 35
                      Wow. Kremlin boats also have certification. it seems even they are doing poorly.
                      1. -1
                        13 December 2019 08: 37
                        Quote: Varyag71
                        Kremlin boats also have certification

                        Oh, the troll jumped up ... schoolboy, get up when you talk with a programmer with 25+ years of experience! laughing
                        1. -6
                          13 December 2019 08: 50
                          You will not praise yourself, no one will praise. If there was a lie, he would not answer. So hurt, then true. However, there you do not shine with your mind.
                        2. -1
                          13 December 2019 09: 58
                          Quote: Varyag71
                          If there was a lie, he would not answer

                          Why not have fun ... you are sometimes so funny laughing

                          Quote: Varyag71
                          However, there you do not shine with your mind

                          In, in fact. In the mirror, in the mirror Yes

                          * shineеthose by the way wink
                        3. -7
                          13 December 2019 10: 06
                          does not reach through the mind, will reach through another place. when pressed, howl. traitors are always sent to the scrap when they play their role.
                        4. -2
                          13 December 2019 10: 37
                          Quote: Golovan Jack
                          get up when you are talking with a programmer with 25+ years of experience! laughing


                          There are people with experience and more (not that experience means a lot).
              2. +11
                13 December 2019 06: 59
                It is a pity that today's businessmen want to hide mistakes, under the Union we would go to Kolyma to retrain

                do not engage in populism. With your statements (like most "experts" in VO), you remind Polesov, an intellectual locksmith, from "12 chairs":
                No, you know, Elena Stanislavovna, that's what! They have four motors of the Universal Electric Company left. Well, these will somehow go, although the bodies are such rubbish! .. Glasses are not on rubbers. I saw it myself. It will rattle all! .. Gloom! And the rest of the motors are Kharkov work. Continuous Gospromtsvetmet. Versts will not stretch. I looked at them ...

                you know everything and criticize everything. Only themselves and were not standing nearby hi
                1. +5
                  13 December 2019 12: 20
                  Quote: Ka-52
                  Only themselves and were not standing nearby hi

                  A huge plus.

                  The classic on this occasion said:
                  "Mediocre people are usually the most demanding critics:
                  not being able to do the simplest possible and not knowing what to do and how, they demand from others the absolutely impossible. "
                  (V.Klyuchevsky)
              3. -2
                13 December 2019 10: 57
                Both in Russia and in India there are untouchables. But WHAT is the difference
                “The Russian government must keep its people in a state of constant amazement.” (Saltykov-Shchedrin).
              4. Fat
                0
                13 December 2019 19: 39
                Quote: Military Commissar77
                It is a pity that today's businessmen want to hide mistakes, under the Union we would go to Kolyma to retrain

                We didn't go. And in "sharaga" they would work on mistakes. Very stimulating.
            2. -7
              13 December 2019 07: 56
              in the union during this time they would have already launched and put on the conveyor the production of these ships.
              1. +5
                13 December 2019 08: 08
                Quote: 4fedor1
                in the union during this time they would have already launched and put on the conveyor the production of these ships

                Hmm ...

                - The Union (plus CMEA, do not forget) - was a multiple of the current Russian Federation
                - In the Union, space exploration was a priority industry. With the accursed capitalists organs measured, yes. Now this is a little wrong
                - maybe they would have put it. Or maybe not. It's hard to check, almost impossible already request
            3. -2
              14 December 2019 09: 09
              Do not worry! Officials are also not happy with publicity! They will buy a mansion for stolen goods and then its liberals show on TV on those supposedly look how bureaucrats live! So what’s left just a little bit and they will launch the sovereign Internet without publicity! For example, Topwar follows this scheme and works, it blocks those who are not with you! You can blame other countries, but great-power Russia neither! You can not show the wretchedness of the country otherwise ban.
          2. -3
            13 December 2019 09: 57
            Quote: Military Commissar77
            but we hear about the advantage only now

            it’s not bad that there is an advantage, but the fact that everyone is talking about it
            maybe it’s time to open foreign intelligence offices in assembly shops and design bureaus ?!
        2. +2
          13 December 2019 11: 25
          Quote: Ka-52
          what is the cry to arrange?

          That's it! So far, this is quite a working situation: this happens almost always when a new "product" is created - whether it be a spacecraft, an airplane, or a tank ...
          The main thing is how critical this advantage is and how it will be eliminated. Because the race to reduce weight often leads to the fact that vital systems are removed from the "product", and this is what I would like to avoid.
        3. -4
          13 December 2019 12: 03
          Ага.
          Urgently put wires from luminium, exchange the lamps for microcircuits, and finally stop replacing titanium alloys with cast iron to reduce the cost.
      3. SSR
        +1
        13 December 2019 06: 24
        Quote: Military Commissar77
        The problem of overweight Il-112V arose due to the lack of designers - many specialists left the enterprise due to low wages, "explained the chief designer then

        Not only in the designers.

        So, the Orla cable network is more than 200 kg heavier than the permissible, the astronaut’s life support system is 109 kg

        There are modern equipment and specialists capable of making lightweight cables and systems, but there is no high-quality "base", raw materials that are much inferior in quality to imports. They are working on this, but it will take time, this is exactly the same situation as with the wing for the MS-21 they learned how to do it, but the base, the composite, was imported.
        1. -1
          13 December 2019 06: 53
          Well, I understand dviglo and life support, cylinder pumps and more. But cable network "Orla" heavier than permissible more than 200 kg !!! Are there wires in the little finger with the thickness of pure copper, what should there be according to the project?
          1. SSR
            +6
            13 December 2019 07: 26
            Are there wires in the little finger with the thickness of pure copper, what should there be according to the project?

            That's how people argue far from this topic. Everything is measured by the thickness of the wire.)))
            1. -3
              13 December 2019 07: 38
              What? The total overweight is determined at 12 percent, if you extrapolate, then wiring of different types should be at least one and a half tons? Too much for a CC, not a Death Star tea.
        2. +8
          13 December 2019 08: 57
          but there is no quality "basis", raw materials, which are much inferior in quality to imports. They are working on this, but it will take time, this is exactly the same situation as with the wing for the MS-21 they learned how to do it, but the base, the composite, was imported.


          SSR, welcome!
          hi

          So not in everything. We also have excellent raw materials for the production of technological equipment (raw materials), which are superior to imported ones. So are its derivatives. They just keep silent about it, it’s not interesting for journalists to write about it, there’s no hype.


          Monocrystal JSC from Stavropol for several years now produces 47% of the total world synthetic sapphire and more than 12% of the global market for metallization pastes used in the manufacture of products for solar energy.
          Monocrystal JSC is the only company in the world that can grow sapphires weighing 300-350 kg. Moreover, many of the competitors to this day are able to grow sapphires no more than 50-60 kg. Monocrystal JSC is the only company in the world that sells sapphires to all regional markets, including China, South Korea, the USA, Japan, and other companies are content with part of their market.
          1. SSR
            +2
            13 December 2019 09: 46
            Quote: Orkraider
            So not in everything. We also have excellent raw materials for the production of technological equipment (raw materials),
            +
            Mutually!
            I do not argue))) I'm talking about the cable, RVDshki, while all the layers are applied, the mass is pretty impaling. But there is pressure, and fire resistance, and other resistances that an ordinary person does not think about, the same, for example, a thermo-radiation-resistant cable.
          2. 0
            13 December 2019 10: 28
            This is an exception that confirms the rule. We have had a degradation of education, science and industry. And all the current problems with space, aircraft manufacturing and much more with it, these are just the consequences of this degradation.
            1. Fat
              +1
              13 December 2019 20: 35
              Quote: ultra
              This is an exception that confirms the rule.

              This phrase must be used carefully. It does not reflect reality at all. Only emotions. The rule with exceptions is destroyed completely.
          3. -2
            13 December 2019 12: 59
            Quote: Orkraider
            which is superior to imported.

            if only for the price
            Pure aluminum oxide, which “heats up” at an extremely high temperature - more than 2000 ° C (this is about a third of the surface temperature of the Sun)

            Deripaska is also a leader in aluminum: low-wage labor and electric tariffs
            Quote: Orkraider
            Monocrystal JSC from Stavropol for several years now produces 47% of the total world synthetic sapphire


            sapphire in Russia simply not in demand due to the lack of appropriate electronics manufacturing

            Quote: Orkraider
            and more than 12% of the global market for metallization pastes,

            you honestly then write!
            This plant is the third in Polyakov Monocrystal Group located in China, near Shanghai, produces metallization pastes for solar energy, more precisely, for the formation of the surface of silicon solar cells (This is the second direction, which provides the company with 15% of revenue).
            metallization pastes in Russiapractically not in demand due to the lack of appropriate industries for solar energy
          4. +6
            13 December 2019 16: 46
            OCSiAl (Oksial), a RUSNANO portfolio company, occupies 90% of the global nanotube market. ...
          5. -3
            13 December 2019 17: 12
            This unfortunate enterprise has already been put to death. Find some more ... of the remaining two and a half. laughing
          6. +1
            14 December 2019 13: 10
            Quote: Orkraider
            Monocrystal JSC from Stavropol for several years now produces 47% of the total world synthetic sapphire and more than 12% of the global market for metallization pastes used in the manufacture of products for solar energy.
            Monocrystal JSC is the only company in the world that can grow sapphires weighing 300-350 kg. Moreover, many of the competitors to this day are able to grow sapphires no more than 50-60 kg. Monocrystal JSC is the only company in the world that sells sapphires to all regional markets, including China, South Korea, the USA, Japan, and other companies are content with part of their market.
            Reply

            The funny thing is that the construction of this plant was carried out within the framework of the Skolkovo project and was supervised by AB Chubais. request who has "well, a lot of money" (c)
      4. -3
        13 December 2019 06: 31
        The problem of overweight IL-112V arose due to a lack of designers - many specialists left the enterprise due to low salaries

        I doubt it.
        I have already spoken about this. I will say it again.
        The designer receives a very good bonus for each "removed" kilogram of weight from the car.
        The designers perfectly calculated everything in advance.
        1. +1
          13 December 2019 06: 43
          Quote: Obi Wan Kenobi
          The designers perfectly calculated everything in advance

          That is, in your opinion - the designer "put" extra weight into the design in advance, so that later on to receive bonuses? belay

          Cool. New, fresh. Write echo laughing
          1. +3
            13 December 2019 06: 49
            Actually, I myself am an aircraft designer and therefore I know what I'm writing about.
            If you are "not in the subject", it does not mean that you are being deceived.
            If you want to understand aviation rocket science, go to an aviation university.
            Here you will have the full program
            Cool. New, fresh.
            1. -3
              13 December 2019 06: 55
              Quote: Obi Wan Kenobi
              I myself am an aircraft designer and therefore I know what I'm writing about

              Um ... if you have been taught this, this does not mean that everyone acts exactly as you were taught.

              I have my own sources on this topic, directly on Energy, including. The version of "malicious overweight" by them somehow ... is not confirmed request laughing
              1. -2
                13 December 2019 07: 08
                I have my own sources on this topic, directly on Energy, including. The version of "malicious overweight" by them somehow ... is not confirmed

                And what version was given to you from Energy?
                Really curious.
                1. -7
                  13 December 2019 07: 12
                  Quote: Obi Wan Kenobi
                  Really curious

                  This is sorry hutspa request
                  1. 0
                    13 December 2019 07: 13
                    This is sorry hutspa

                    Well begins ....
                    1. -3
                      13 December 2019 07: 17
                      Quote: Obi Wan Kenobi
                      This is sorry hutspa

                      Well begins ....

                      Yes, it’s almost over already.

                      I know what they told me. But to distribute what they told me, no one pushed on me.

                      Your question is pure hutspa. There will be no answer, call request
            2. -2
              13 December 2019 06: 56
              Quote: Obi Wan Kenobi
              If you want to understand aviation rocket science, go to an aviation university.

              Where are my seventeen years old?
              We in the techie calculated up to a hundredth of a gram. And they weren’t like those jerks from the sausage department.
              1. +2
                13 December 2019 11: 04
                "It was smooth on paper, but they forgot about the ravines"

                We in techie calculated up to a hundredth of a gram


                Feels serious practical experience in designing and bringing development to serial samples! Here is an expert opinion! laughing
                1. -6
                  13 December 2019 11: 11
                  Quote: Horon
                  Here is an expert opinion!

                  Yes, what the fuck expert ... Just sad.
                  We calculated the results from what we burned out, but here ...
                  1. +2
                    13 December 2019 11: 45
                    Before going to study, I already had practical experience in creating radio electronic devices, and when they began to make calculations, I immediately noticed their strong pull behind the ears. I pointed this out to the teacher. Specified places and meanings that confuse me. After class, we continued the discussion with him. He also turned out to be a practitioner. Somewhere he corrected, somewhere he agreed with me, somewhere he clarified the initial ones, but generally agreed that the calculations and reality often do not coincide, and the real values ​​have to be obtained mainly in a practical way, in the conditions of real production. All calculations with an accuracy of fractions of a gram can only be compensated for by a large number of these "grams" included in production. And this is only in conditions of simple production and the absence of design errors. If the production and design uses the products of other enterprises participating in the common project, the process becomes even more "fun" and unpredictable. Now work will begin on the mistakes and will get rid of excess weight. These are all working moments and all products go through them. The main thing is that they do not stop and that everything works!
            3. +9
              13 December 2019 12: 30
              Quote: Obi Wan Kenobi
              If you want to understand aviation rocket science, go to an aviation university.
              Here you will have the full program

              I will answer you as a graduate of the Faculty of Radio Electronics at MAI. You can accurately calculate the weight only when you have the entire set of CDs ready. Up to this stage, even the rearrangement changes the weight characteristics. For example, if you move the device from one place to another, the length of the connecting cables changes and the entire weight distribution changes. I am not even saying that such a rearrangement is required at every stage, if only because a separate requirement is to maintain the center of gravity of the apparatus. This is required constantly. If anything, my devices flew into space. Including on "Buran".
        2. 0
          13 December 2019 10: 44
          Quote: Obi Wan Kenobi
          The designers perfectly calculated everything in advance.


          Those. have they consciously created an edge?
          1. +2
            13 December 2019 12: 37
            Those. have they consciously created an edge?

            No, why immediately "deliberately". Designing a product is a laborious process that involves solving a whole bunch of problems.
            One of them is the following - a spaceship, plane or helicopter, it does not matter, it should be light, but with a sufficient margin of safety. Plus equipment. Plus duplication of systems. Plus ... etc.
            Of course, designers have "limits" - that is, certain quantities, including the mass limit, which cannot be exceeded.
            And of course, designers try to "fit" into these values ​​even at the design stage, but this is not always possible. Here a lot really depends on the experience of the designer. The designer is helped in this by "heavy" computer programs for 3D modeling, for example, Unigraphics.
            If the designer made a mistake and went beyond the acceptable limits, then most likely the work will be redone, maybe even completely (and not the fact that the same people). Such finishing works include the so-called "construction lightening".
            But in this particular situation, being overweight is normal. This is some kind of insurance for the designers, because none of them knows how the ship will behave during trials. Indeed, in the future they plan to make manned flights on it. No one will risk people just like that.
            Then, based on the results of passing the full cycle of tests of the Orel spacecraft in space, the designers will make a decision to simplify and facilitate the design in connection with this and that ...
            Well, in general, it's all somehow, in general terms ...
            1. +1
              13 December 2019 21: 46
              Quote: Obi Wan Kenobi
              But in this particular situation, being overweight is normal.


              This is a violation of the unsuitability of the product for use. I do not understand how this can be normal.

              Quote: Obi Wan Kenobi
              This is some kind of insurance for the designers, because none of them knows how the ship will behave during trials.


              If a ship needs this weight to successfully pass the tests, then this is already a failure.
          2. 0
            13 December 2019 12: 53
            If you're really interested, check out Ridley Scott's The Martian. Better read the book. There is of course a lot of fiction, for that it is fantastic, but some moments are very accurately displayed.
      5. -5
        13 December 2019 06: 46
        4 years have passed since then, and the plans have been shifted many times, moreover, it was decided to rename the spaceship, as “there should be a masculine name”.

        Can not be. Rogozin has almost done for the development of astronautics many times more than the notorious Mask. Just success will be in the 30s, have patience and health to survive.
        1. AUL
          -3
          13 December 2019 07: 41
          Well, once renamed - now everything will be hurt! What did Rogozin not prompt before? Here the police were renamed to the police - and immediately the result is obvious!
        2. -4
          13 December 2019 08: 05
          Quote: Civil
          Rogozin has almost done for the development of astronautics many times more than the notorious Mask.

          Not everyone understood your sarcasm
      6. 0
        13 December 2019 08: 13
        Well, what do you think, when was the last time you saw children at school, and don’t forget about their ancestors! hi
      7. -2
        13 December 2019 08: 51
        You can count on anything you want.
        It is also necessary to reproduce the calculated in "metal".
        And the problems will begin.
        Example: black wing MS-21
        1. Fat
          +1
          13 December 2019 21: 06
          Quote: Aibolit
          You can count on anything you want.
          It is also necessary to reproduce the calculated in "metal".
          And the problems will begin.
          Example: black wing MS-21

          I will give another example.
          Mercedes designed for the F-1 car. All calculated. Collected prepared for the race. On the control weighing before the races, an excess of a few kilos was revealed. In a few hours, the problem was identified and resolved.
          I had to rip off all the paint from the car.
      8. -2
        13 December 2019 09: 06
        We have never had a weighty culture of designing aircraft. So, the lack of designers is not at work: there is no school, no school.
        1. 0
          14 December 2019 13: 31
          Quote: AS Ivanov.
          We have never had a weighty culture of designing aircraft. So, the lack of designers is not at work: there is no school, no school.

          There is a good book, or rather a collection of three stories entitled "Eyes Open" by A. Granovsky, stories devoted to the creation of jet aircraft. In principle, the stories are almost documentary, the only author changed the names of the heroes, so he renamed the designer of the turbojet engine Lyulka to Bulba, etc., but he mentioned the testers, for example, Mark Gallai and V. Mosolov by their last names. So in these stories, the author described in some detail the process of both the design and creation of the first jet aircraft, including strength tests. It is very interesting how airplanes were tested for strength at the stand then in the 40s - with cables in an interference fit with dynamometers. Why all this for so long, but to the point that this test of strength was a test in order to find out if the plane was overweight, if it remained intact under a certain load, i.e. the weight culture of aircraft design was. Of course, it was not calculated using a computer program as it is now, but naturally, but nevertheless it was.
      9. +1
        13 December 2019 11: 13
        "at the stage of early design" .... Are there any projects where the sketch corresponds to the working draft. In my opinion, this is a wonderful utopia. Moreover, this is not a problem today - it has always been so!
    2. -5
      13 December 2019 06: 11
      And you are still laughing at the fancy Mask.
      1. 0
        13 December 2019 11: 08
        This is just a reaction to trying to make fun of us "buffoon Musk"!
    3. -3
      13 December 2019 06: 19
      Somehow some poet for Stalin's birthday released poems, something like: "I wish to live as many years as a mountain eagle!"
      The editor took care, and how many years did mountain eagles live? It turned out that a little, about five years ago. In general, he sent a verse far away.
      1. +4
        13 December 2019 06: 26
        Quote: Mordvin 3
        The editor took care, and how many years did mountain eagles live?

        The correct one was the editor good

        That would be more now feel
      2. +9
        13 December 2019 07: 09
        Quote: Mordvin 3
        about five years old

        An average of 30 years. Max- 45 years old .... hi
        1. -3
          13 December 2019 07: 15
          Quote from Uncle Lee
          An average of 30 years. Max- 45 years old ....

          Yes, I don’t really remember. They told me by a drunken bench.
    4. -3
      13 December 2019 06: 35
      Perhaps this is really a working moment. Especially since it’s all the same to launch from nowhere and with nothing.
    5. +4
      13 December 2019 06: 40
      The reports noted that the mass exceeds the permissible parameters by almost 2,5 tons.

      Question - And who and how did you count \ calculated everything and everything IN ADVANCE ??? What is this talking about? Competencies are lost or one of the managers / supervisors sits NOT NOT IN OWN PLACE !!! Previously, conclusions and decisions followed immediately and effectively!
      1. +4
        13 December 2019 07: 19
        Separate components were developed by different organizations. But each of them could realize that it does not fit in weight. You can save a small advantage with saving in another place, and perhaps even surrendered with a reservation, we’ll finalize it. It really can be working moments.
        1. 0
          13 December 2019 08: 41
          Quote: Donald72
          It really can be working moments.

          Working moments? It happens ... that's when they decide, they will bring everything into line, then it WAS WORKING MOMENTS!
          If nothing is decided, then this is different, it is NECOMPETENTITY! some, maybe many!
        2. -3
          13 December 2019 10: 32
          Quote: Donald72
          Separate components were developed by different organizations. But each of them could realize that it does not fit in weight.

          What is it, they generally could not realize that it was a system for a spaceship. They thought for a steam locomotive. wassat
    6. +2
      13 December 2019 06: 53
      need to work on reducing the mass parameters.
      And they say that the truth is in fault. It turns out that with an overestimated mass, it is just necessary to work on reducing its parameters. I wonder how much they thought to come to this conclusion?
    7. +6
      13 December 2019 07: 23
      Especially in this article, this place was amused:
      Such a significant excess of weight (and this is 12,5%) simply will not allow to deliver a spaceship to a planned orbitsince rocket developers (including super heavy - “Yenisei”) are guided by those parameters of mass which were specified in the initial technical task.

      At the moment, only the parameters of the "Angara-A5P" launch vehicle are capable of putting the "Eagle" into low-earth orbit.
      Following this logic, the 770-ton "Angara-A5" with a total engine thrust at the start of 980 tf is higher than the 2397-ton Yenisei-5 with a similar engine thrust of 2960 tf. This is just a masterpiece of logic, tk. it follows from it that 1> 3! Bravo, author!
      1. +3
        13 December 2019 10: 34
        So far there is neither A5P nor Yenisei.
        1. -1
          13 December 2019 12: 12
          Quote: ultra
          So far there is neither A5P nor Yenisei.

          Dum spiro spero.
          smile
        2. -2
          13 December 2019 19: 53
          Quote: ultra
          So far there is neither A5P nor Yenisei.

          It seems to me that the notorious "Yenisei" will never be. And I even count on this - experience has been given to us in order to master it and grow wiser.
          The era of superheavy disposable rockets has already ended, and reusable superheavy rockets have not yet arrived.
          Super heavy disposable rockets are insanely expensive waste.
          Super heavy reusable missiles - for them there is still no cargo flow that would justify maintaining them in operational readiness with starts every few years.
          It should be understood that at the time when the ideology of Saturn-5, H-1 and Energy was born, they were the only way to build the notorious "rocket trains" in orbit, ships for flights to other heavenly bodies, like flights to the Apollo Moon.
          Much has changed since then, we have the ISS and the technology of "prefabricated rocket trains" has begun to develop. For this, there is absolutely no need to create a launch vehicle for 100 - 200 tons. Angara A5B will be enough, with its 37,5 tons for LEO.
          I even think that it’s quite for the current dachas - TEM, Moon, Lagrange points, prefabricated automatic interplanetary ships to outer planets and asteroids, prefabricated superheavy platforms on GSO, etc. - the Proton with its 24 ton standard of blocks at the NOO, and, accordingly, the Angara A5, when the Proton will be decommissioned, is quite enough.
          Of the blocks of 24 tons, it is possible on the ISS, of course, providing it with a slipway and a more powerful manipulator, to build quite decent constructions for yourself.
          It’s a pity, of course, that the initial ideas were inherent in the Angara family: I mean options A3, A7 and A9 went nowhere for political reasons. But this is very cool - from spent reusable URM blocks, the designs of which change over time and improve performance, collect carriers up to 62 tons at the IEO. request
          At the same time, all of these URM blocks individually are in demand in other, less load-bearing versions of the Angara and are interchangeable.
          But, for some of his reasons, known only to him, probably for the same reasons that accompanied the plans for the construction of a new cosmodrome, the authorities decided that we needed a superheavy Yenisei ... sad
      2. +3
        13 December 2019 12: 10
        Quote: Herrr
        Especially in this article, this place was amused:

        everything is correct here. There is no confusion Angara -5P should display "Eagle", and "Yenisei" in the same way (but not just "Eagle" Just a leapfrog because of "Federation / Eagle", which is the essence of the PTK NP:
        a ship for flights beyond low Earth orbit, vehicles for supplying a space station, a lifeguard, a tourist apparatus or a system for the return of goods.

        maybe they will call him "Flag" and "Stork" (Rogozin is like this)

        1. "Angara-A5P" delivery of the manned spacecraft "Eagle" (PTK NP) to LEO should be 25 tons from "Vostochny"
        Naturally for the Moon (flyby or visit) 25 tons is not enough
        2. "Energia-3x" STK e1 = up to LEO should be 50-70 tons with "Vostochny" flyby of the moon by the "Federation" (PTK NP)
        "Energia-5x" STK e1 = up to LEO must be 100 tons from "Vostochny" delivery to the orbit of the Moon "Federation" or lunar takeoff and landing module: version "Soyuz MS" with enhanced thermal and radiation protection for flights to the Moon:

        those analogue 7K-9K-11K in modern execution

        or option PTKNP,

        but with the same enhanced protection and lunar take-off and landing module
        1. +1
          13 December 2019 12: 34
          hi Soundly and distinctly. I am always pleased to read something like that written by you. It’s a pity that your articles haven’t been seen for the third year now. )
    8. +6
      13 December 2019 07: 31
      moreover, it was decided to rename the spaceship, as "there must be a masculine name."
      That's it, and you still have to consecrate everything in priests, then there will be happiness in our cosmic capitalism.
    9. -7
      13 December 2019 07: 57
      yeah, you can’t say anything, we don’t have our queen
    10. -3
      13 December 2019 08: 37
      Brad!
      What they just do not come up with to "master" the budget and build nothing.
      Stalin is not on you !!! Together with Beria. If he offered to build anything there, then there was personal responsibility for the result. We have now, as in that anecdote about a cow - "Well, I didn't, I didn't. request "
      Until they put things in order, there won’t be Of the general designer, so the mess will be. sad negative
    11. -3
      13 December 2019 09: 14
      Rather, they found a lack of funding.
    12. +1
      13 December 2019 09: 43
      There is such an aatlichnaya Russian proverb: "They don't show a fool half of the work."
      Overweight was originally a problem in creating a spacecraft. Read the story of the creation of 1 satellite, how they fought with an advantage, although there was only a small ball with a couple of hundred details inside.
      But Korolev was still a managerial genius; under his leadership, they managed to overcome the underdevelopment of Soviet industry in terms of the production of necessary electronics and materials.
    13. -5
      13 December 2019 10: 01
      warm tube technology? did you try microelectronics and composites?
    14. 0
      13 December 2019 10: 16
      The "lunar" spacecraft "Orel" found "excess weight"

      holy, holy, holy ... it was a sinful thing to think that 50 years later they discovered that Lunar Module (LEM - Lunar Excursion Module) "Eagle" / "Eagle" was obesity.
      How then:
      They came in peace from all of humanity


      But it turns out that ours, cabbage soup slurping, do not know how to work
      the cable network ... is more than 200 kg heavier than the permissible, the astronaut's life support system is 109 kg, the power plant is approximately 107 kg, etc.

      An example must be taken from the Americans!
      "I blinded him, from what was"
      I recommend:
      1. use more spunbond / or old Christmas wrapping paper, sticky tape (scotch is her name), mylar film, zippers and gilded tape

      more foil

      2. because it takes a long time
      It should be noted that the first launch tests of the "Federation" were scheduled for 2015. 4 years have passed since then

      4 years in the 21st century (having Skolkovo and Rogozin) per lunar module?
      Is it the Americans?
      Everything that the United States did before sending the manned spacecraft to the moon was already done by the USSR, which were clearly at least a step or two ahead of the most developed country in the world.
      President John F. Kennedy Formulated the Problem in His Speech 12 September 1962 yearsand she was resolved July 20, 1969 during the Apollo 11 flight, the landing of Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin.
      1969-1962=total 7 years and such a "big step for all mankind" from accidents "During the period 1958 to 1963, Thor, Atlas, Titan I, Titan II"

      to
      Saturn 5 with F-1 and J-2
      -LEM
      rover
      skyline
      и

      learn quilted jackets
      1. -6
        13 December 2019 10: 37
        Lunar refututans right there
        1. -4
          13 December 2019 13: 07
          Quote: Hakka
          Lunar refututans right there
          - and he still claims - they say, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I just doubt it laughing
    15. -3
      13 December 2019 10: 31
      The "lunar" spacecraft "Orel" found "excess weight"
      and this weight is Mr. Rogozin. Remove the "talkers" from the management of SUCH an organization, put in professional rocket scientists.
      1. 0
        14 December 2019 14: 14
        The space industry, that in Russia, that in the USSR, rocketers never controlled. In the USSR, the entire space program was supervised by the Minister of General Engineering, among which not
        there was not a single engineer - a rocketeer.
        1. -1
          14 December 2019 14: 22
          Quote: AS Ivanov.
          The space industry, that in Russia, that in the USSR, rocketers never controlled.

          But there were no talkers among them, but now there are
    16. -3
      13 December 2019 10: 45
      There is no way to do without an assistant political commander. Need, shock, motivation.
    17. -2
      13 December 2019 11: 20
      And if we reformulate what has been said as follows: the power of the rocket engines does not allow launching the spacecraft into lunar orbit? In my opinion, this squabble between manufacturers of rocket engines and spaceships has been going on since the days of S.P. Queen. In those heroic years, this was solved by brainstorming, several heart attacks and the star of the Hero of Socialist Labor. And now, in my opinion, it is necessary to close all this "space odyssey" to the edren hair dryer (I apologize for the harshness) and not fool your head. Too many "pirates" have developed in the open spaces of the development of budgetary funds in the field of space exploration. And while this is so, they will take away the Moon, and this may not be forgiven by completely different, alien forces, say, some kind of "alien SADA" (here the first word is Space - Space), and even to the detriment of all mankind. This is how banal slovenliness or selfish malicious intent can reach.
      1. 0
        13 December 2019 12: 35
        Quote: 1536
        And if you reformulate what was said as follows: the power of rocket engines does not allow to bring the spacecraft into lunar orbit?


        "there is no power" there is no such word in the taxiway
        specific impulse. it is VERY high at our level
        does not "allow"
        - mass of empty containers. the booster is too heavy (empty)
        tk little (or with high specific gravity) used composites.
        - the geographical latitude of the Vostochny launch (51 ° 53′04 ″ N) loses to Cape K (28 ° 29′20 ″ N)

        starting from the equator, saves up to 10% fuel
        1. -2
          13 December 2019 12: 38
          Thank you for clarification and clarification. Therefore, it is true that the CS turned out to be difficult in the literal and figurative sense.
    18. The comment was deleted.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. -1
        13 December 2019 16: 11
        Quote: alloy01
        There is one here slipped, who beat him all in the chest for the federation. You can’t see a dude. Chocak trampolines are weak? The weight of the braces do not pull?


        Dude, who are you? bye Bye ....
        1. +1
          13 December 2019 17: 18
          lol Yes, it’s Antosha’s famous, he’s joking like that ... he’s hurt that he found factual and logical errors in his posts ...
    19. 0
      13 December 2019 12: 16
      The only real two-stage flight scenario to the moon. First, the delivery of the ship into orbit, then the formation of the fuel and propulsion platform, docking and sending to the moon. Directly flying a single ship is completely unrealistic. The engines on our planet are too weak.
      1. -1
        13 December 2019 12: 41
        Quote: Mikhail3
        First, the delivery of the ship into orbit, then the formation of the fuel and propulsion platform, docking and sending to the moon.

        such an option has never been thrust into the mouth.
        dangerously!
        It was only for the Americans on Saturn 5 that it turned out like this: Whack and on the Moon without one accident (13 do not count)

        Quote: Mikhail3
        The engines on our planet are too weak.

        Solid Rocket Booster, SRB in the amount of 2 pieces gave 83% of the starting thrust for the output of 24 kg on the NOO
        take them 4 and in the new reincarnation, you will be happy (70-80 tons at the NOU)
        1. +2
          13 December 2019 12: 46
          I know. But there is simply no other way to actually fly. We do not have interplanetary ships, and they will not be on these engines. It would be wiser to focus on improving methods for joining modular structures, developing orbital "workshops", etc. By the way, optics solve many problems in the field of data transmission. Instead of hundreds of copper cables, you can throw one or two optical lines. It is completely unclear why there are so many copper veins in modern ships. I suspect this is because the old engineering developments are based on copper, but there are no new ones on optics. There is no one to do. This is not a presentation to sculpt ...
          1. -2
            13 December 2019 13: 36
            Quote: Mikhail3
            But there is simply no other way to really fly.

            Yes there is. We are already in 2019 on the moon and on Mars belay (if I understood correctly)

            Quote: Mikhail3
            and on these engines will not be.

            yes there is .RD-170, let's say.
            We do not have solid propellant type:

            without this, it would not be possible to ensure the great importance of traction in order to tear off and toss the entire assembly 30-50 km
            We do not have hydrogen (Iud) for the 2,3,4 stage (in the first it is not relevant, tanks).
            Without this, you can’t get a high Iud (get the Moon and Mars, bring the mass to the DOE)
            You will be surprised, but in the hydrogen race we are not even second or third. We are fifth
            -USA (RS-68A_
            -Europe (Vulcain 1GS, Vulcain 1B)
            -Japan (LE-9)
            -India (CE-20)
            then whether we are either China
            Quote: Mikhail3
            It is completely incomprehensible why in modern ships there are so many copper wires. I suspect this is because the old engineering developments on copper, but not the new ones on optics.

            Chinese, or based on them for consumer goods can do.
            class spaice or acceptance 5/9 (with resistance to special factors) -no.
            No wonder

            Glonasy, Phobos and falling pH - an example of this
            On the ISS (ATV, JWST, KAI, Solar Dynamics Observatory (SDO)) GORE® SpaceWire cables
            We, in my opinion, do not even produce ePTFE for the range -200 / + 200
            GORE® microwave / RF assemblies (New Horizons, Mangalayaan) provide over 30 years of operation and 100% uptime
            etc.
            1. -1
              13 December 2019 13: 43
              Do not flatter yourself about the "hydrogen" and other similar "races". The capabilities of the rocket engine have been exhausted, and they are limited primarily not by the fuel, but by the material of the combustion chamber and other materials of the "hot" paths. You can gain a little more strength and heat resistance, but these are just miserable percentages that do not solve anything in principle. You can strain, bring the same engines of the shuttle foundling to the maximum, and the weight of the ship is already up to 30 tons! So what?
              It's still not a planetary craft. All the same, this is not astronautics. All this is the "Blue Ribbon of the Atlantic" - a cockpit bubble on a huge hull, filled with engines and fuel, for setting records. All this, in principle, does not allow to EXPLORE space. Alas. We will not see cosmonautics in the foreseeable future ...
              1. 0
                13 December 2019 14: 01
                Quote: Mikhail3
                Rocket engine exhausted

                there is no other. How to get out of the gravity bag? gravitsapoy7
                Quote: Mikhail3
                and they are limited primarily not by fuel, but by the material of the combustion chamber and other materials of the "hot" paths.

                bullshit. with Pressure and a "hot" path, if you do not use American pipes (and they are still tormented only by the stupid Japanese, whom the Americans have gotten a license for H-1), no problem
                Reached I ud

                Pressure in the chamber (RD-270: 264,5 atm)

                If it weren’t for ecology, we would have had 700 s Iud (and a little higher)
                O2 / Be / H2 - maximum
                in marching engines F2 / Li / H2, F2 / Li and NF3 / Li, and in engines of reactive control systems - F2 / H2, F2 / NH3 and NF3 / NH3.
                1. +2
                  13 December 2019 14: 44
                  Quote: opus
                  there is no other. How to get out of the gravity bag? gravitsapoy7

                  Apparently we can handle it without it) While there is nothing else, then there is no astronautics. In principle, there is no point in developing this one hundred percent dead end by jumping out of your pants. Are you a pro? I fully understand your motivation. Projects, salaries, bonuses ...
                  Another question is whether real cosmonautics is possible on THIS. On any handsets? If you are a pro, you understand best of all that there are no and will not be cosmonautics on rocket engines. Either some kind of anamone, or a gravitsap. Ka-gamma-plasmin. Mu delta inoplast. But neither hydrogen, nor caramel, nor asymmetric hydrazine ... nothing.
                  Giant barrels of fuel, huge engines and small bubbles of payload - this is not Space, this is fun. Alas.
        2. -2
          13 December 2019 13: 09
          Quote: opus
          Solid Rocket Booster, SRB in the amount of 2 pieces gave 83% of the starting thrust for the output of 24 kg on the NOO
          take them 4 and in the new reincarnation, you will be happy (70-80 tons at the NOU)

          There is no happiness in life) These engines are not suitable for an interplanetary planet. Like everything American - wildly expensive and not brought to normal operation. And no one to bring. This could only be Soviet engineers. Only that very peculiar Empire can bring up and select the appropriate people. In the capitalist world, this is in principle impossible.
          1. 0
            13 December 2019 14: 10
            Quote: Mikhail3
            There is no happiness in life) These engines are not suitable for an interplanetary planet. Like everything American - wildly expensive and not brought to normal operation

            1. They will put into orbit PN
            2. why not "brought something"?
            Over 30 years 135 flights and only 2e (!) Accidents, and only one (STS-51L) due to SRB!
            98,5%, and essentially 99,23%

            Soyuz-FG launch vehicle - 98,46% (not 30 years old) and not such masses.
            Quote: Mikhail3
            In the capitalist world, this is in principle impossible.

            all this nonsense. fallacy
          2. -3
            13 December 2019 14: 12
            Really ... I’m not only looking for some pervert. He probably experiences an orgasm by putting "-"

            laughing
            you don’t have time to meow and he’s already here
            1. +1
              13 December 2019 14: 49
              I did not set) I personally appreciate the ratings only because my posts are of interest to someone. So it makes sense to talk, since there is an interlocutor. I often do not sculpt cons, and even more so for nothing. I’m just waiting for a computer specialist to set up a network, there’s time.
              I suspect of being minus an American fan who happily "crushed" the "Urya gentlemen" below. Such a fellow, really) Let him ...
              1. -2
                13 December 2019 18: 13
                Quote: Mikhail3
                I did not set)

                Well, I didn’t say this, just for the distribution of you. I have become toxic. like russian


                Quote: Mikhail3
                I suspect of being minus an American fan who happily "crushed" the "Urya gentlemen" below. Such a good fellow, really)


                Kirill Dou (Cyril E.)?
                not. not sure
          3. -1
            13 December 2019 20: 28
            ... and at that time in Romania:


            Along with the unprecedented fact of the continued operation of the MiG-21 by the local air force, also noted in the video, local inventors are developing an engine on ... water, more precisely, on water vapor (for those who thought that the tile is a shame on you am ).
            It is stated that if there is a compact and powerful source of electricity on such an engine, it will be possible to achieve payloads of NOU up to 3000 - 5000 tons. This is not a typo lol
            There you have a way out of the gravitational dead end, get your head out of the oven laughing
            But the Romanian colleagues believe that lithium-ion batteries are suitable for this, they do not know that we have such cool things as Poseidon and 9M730 Petrel, their reactors can be much better ...
            1. 0
              16 December 2019 09: 23
              Quote: Mityai65
              with a compact and powerful source of electricity on such an engine, it will be possible to achieve

              If there is such a source, you can fly by throwing stools into the furnace as a moving body. Only one trifle stops - there is no such source, and is not expected.
      2. -2
        13 December 2019 13: 04
        Directly flying a single ship is completely unrealistic.
        - is real. The Americans dealt in 1969.
      3. +2
        13 December 2019 18: 08
        Quote: Mikhail3
        The only real two-stage flight scenario to the moon.

        No, actually. The modern version, which has been considered for more than a decade, is the following (I do not indicate authorship, but everyone understands where the legs grow from):
        1. Preliminary casting into LOO (lunar reference orbit) of the LSS (lunar supply station) or fuel depot with the possibility of visiting and limited stay of the astronaut crew in the form of a refuge for the crews of emergency ships. Because habitable shelter requires heavy radiation protection and the LSS is also difficult and requires constant maintenance, then at the first stage the LSS will consist only of fuel depot modules.
        2. Throwing to the LSS a reusable Lunar lander module (LM) as a part of the landing (PS) and take-off / orbital stage (OS): it was planned to implement a ship for 3 astronauts, the landing stage in the form of a crumpled toroid tank, which will remain on the moon after the OS takes off. Reusable OS with a frequency of use up to 40 cycles.
        3. Conclusion to the ISS, assembly and testing of the reusable OTK1 (orbital transport vehicle, option 1). For 3 crew members, with radiation shielding, for expeditions visiting orbits above the Earth's radiation belts, i.e. GSO, Lightning type orbits, Lagrange points, etc. Incl. crew transport "there and back" along the route NOO-ISS - LOO-LSS. Here you need to consider: no CA provided (descent vehicle) with thermal protection for direct entry into the Earth’s atmosphere after a flight from the moon’s orbit, as Apollo did. Scheme where used SA, for a long time, 40 years so-called recognized as dangerous (the role of chance and error is great, the spread of the angle of entry into the atmosphere at the 2nd space velocity is very small).
        In general, this is all who needs it, they have known for more than a decade: for safety and gaining weight (you don’t need to carry a heavy SA to the Moon and back) the flight scheme should include a return to the NOO-ISS due to engine braking (refueling will be done at the fuel depot). Therefore, when they start to say that the Eagle is intended for flights to the Moon / Mars, they simply make a fool of the people, but by the way.
        4. The general scheme of the flight to the Moon with landing of 3 people on the surface is as follows: The Soyuz spacecraft delivers 3 people to the ISS, where they transfer to OTK1, fly to the Moon, decelerate and transfer to the LSS orbit, refuel the LPM from the fuel depot, transfer in the CVL, which delivers them to the surface of the Moon, perform the task, start to the LSS on the OS, leaving the SS on the surface, dock with the LSS, refuel OTK1 from the fuel depot, start, fly to Earth, decelerate and transfer to the ISS orbit, dock, sit in the Union and return to Earth.
        In general, like this. I did not indicate that the "cargo line" should work in parallel, which will ensure the delivery of fuel to the LSS and landing on the lunar surface of target modules: residential, scientific, technological.
        Now, sound lunologists say that the only purpose of flying to the moon can be deep drilling in the polar zones and collecting geological samples on the surface. Accordingly, the technology module is a drilling rig. As much as possible, in the 99-year version it was planned to place 12 people on the Lunar Base, each half a year old, moon scientists, drillers, space medical specialists, pilots. And the life of the lunar base is up to 2,5 years
        1. +1
          16 December 2019 09: 28
          Well yes. Only this scheme is for the real beginning of the exploration of the Moon, which cannot begin because of the prohibitive, monstrous high cost of this scheme on classic engines. And a simple two-stage one - for another loud and useless record, like a Japanese probe on a comet. Fly in, wander proudly, scoop up stones with dust and get out. Measure several parameters, such as "a big step in science" to nowhere and nothing else.
    20. -3
      13 December 2019 12: 19
      When Roskosmos really VERY does not want to get involved with the Moon, but someone is up there, sort of like when he said that he had to (and allocated money) -> the situation is like with the "Federation".
      It seems that they are doing something, in the style of the Italian strike, slowly, not very neatly, it is not really clear for what exactly - for the orbit and the Moon it turns out painfully uneconomical and expensive, for only the Moon it turns out that in a deep separation from the timing (and results) of our other activities ( I mean the timing of work on the same superheavy). It feels like the "Federation" is not being made for something, but because MOM SAID
    21. 0
      13 December 2019 12: 48
      The "lunar" spacecraft "Orel" found "excess weight"

      It’s just not visible in the photo, but I guess that if the name of the ship

      write not with "cast-iron" letters, but with paint - then the weight will immediately decrease.
      / joke wassat /
    22. -4
      13 December 2019 13: 03
      It should be noted that the first launch tests of the "Federation" were scheduled for the 2015 year. Since then, 4 years have passed, and plans have been shifted many times, moreover, it was decided to rename the spaceship, as "there must be a masculine name."


      Against this background, the Americans' delays in their development of manned spacecraft do not look so comical - right, right, gentlemen "hurray"?)
      1. -1
        13 December 2019 13: 55
        Quote: Kirill Dou
        the first launch tests of the "Federation" were scheduled for 2015. .. plans shifted many times


        Against this background, the Americans' delays in their development of manned spacecraft do not look so comical - right, right, gentlemen "hurray"?)


        Past, as always with the xenophile propaganda nasa.
        The Russian Federation has a manned KK Soyuz - time-tested - super reliable and economically viable.
        1. -4
          13 December 2019 16: 23
          Quote: Lontus
          Super reliable and economically viable.
          - Where does the information about economic justification come from?

          Well, let's not be cunning - if the Soyuz had not become obsolete, no one would have begun to develop a replacement for it in the form of the Federation.
          1. -1
            13 December 2019 18: 15
            Quote: Kirill Dou
            if Soyuz had not become obsolete, no one would have begun to develop a replacement for it in the form of a Federation.

            1. And how to cut money?
            2.diameter of the spacecraft. Now PHs allow you to have more of it, a lot more. It is unproductive to use the "small-bore" Union
            3. He chose all the possible modifications, upgrades, you won’t make it reusable
            4-5 trend per run
            1. -1
              13 December 2019 18: 54
              why are you writing this to me? this is what my opponent needs
              1. -3
                13 December 2019 19: 24
                Quote: Kirill Dou
                why are you writing this to me?

                Well, the Union is not entirely out of date.
                I am for this and therefore you
                1. -1
                  14 December 2019 11: 37
                  Different systems dictate different approaches and different opportunities.
                  - out of date. This does not prevent him from remaining a good ship and performing his tasks - but he is out of date.

                  This is similar to a horse. Yes, a horse with a cart completely copes with the task of bringing a person and cargo to a specified place. But the SUV is still cooler.
          2. 0
            16 December 2019 09: 30
            Rogozin is required to move, he moves, and do not care which way. Unions as they were the ONLY real, reliable and efficient spaceships, so they remained.
    23. -1
      13 December 2019 13: 48
      If you make a new manned spacecraft,
      then according to the brilliant concept of the Unions:

      - the most compact SA. without unnecessary and toxic components
      - Separate Orbital Compartment (with the potential to change it for a specific task).
      -separate aggregate-service compartment
      -separate CAC, reset before entering orbit

      And certainly not to sculpt awkward barrel-buckets like Dragon-2 and Starliner (and their monkey-like "federation").
      Buckets are acceptable only for cargo missions.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. -4
        13 December 2019 16: 36
        And why is the "bucket-barrel" worse than the "Unions"?
    24. The comment was deleted.
    25. +1
      13 December 2019 14: 39
      At the moment, only the parameters of the Angara-A5P launch vehicle are capable of allowing the Orla to enter low Earth orbit. In this case, we are not talking about the delivery of the ship with its “forming” mass to the Moon; we need to work to reduce the mass parameters.
      Bullshit war! The two-start circuit will solve everything. And it will be cheaper.
    26. +1
      13 December 2019 15: 46
      But how many tons of dough were cut. Now I'm looking at how Vladimir Vladimirovich presented the hydroelectric power plants to Deripaska (read - to partners from the United States) ... Well, here: rocket engines - the United States, and myself - visibility. They do "Angara", then - no, we will not! Why? Yes, in Moscow, the plant for building has already been sold, and Muscovites do not want to move to Omsk. Who would have thought? So deceive the president! They promised him that nothing would happen to space and aviation if the design bureaus, factories, airfields, specialists were destroyed ...
      I remember Arkhangelsk was horrified when he saw his serial high-speed bomber. From afar, the airplane looked like a model. But only from afar. The director of the plant was a steam engine. He firmly knew that a light train would not pull a heavy train ...
      Cast Iron, Lime ... What's the Difference?
    27. -1
      13 December 2019 16: 07
      I recalled the phrase S To Shoigu, when inspecting the equipment for combat swimmers: ,, What kind of composite is it for dicks? Lose weight ,, laughing By the way, if you throw out Rogozin, then this is immediately minus one hundred and twenty with a hook ...
    28. +1
      13 December 2019 16: 47
      Everything that is written in the article is already significantly outdated, and even in this "practically copy-paste" with RIA, distortions are deliberately introduced, not cited as in the original:

      "In this regard, RSC Energia has developed measures to reduce the mass of the ship from more than 22 tons to 21 tons 200 kilograms. Although the current overload by 2,3 tons [of a full-fledged ship - slipped], as noted in the materials of RSC Energia, does not interfere with the spacecraft flight tests on the Angara-A5P rocket. The carrier's carrying capacity is enough to put the Eagle into low-earth orbit. "

      PTC "Orel" is a mock-up for flight design tests, it consists of a command and engine compartments. Work on it will begin no earlier than the fourth quarter of 2021, and before that there is a series of mock-ups for testing the ship's elements - static, dynamic, vibration, and so on.

      LV "A5P" - launches 25 tons from the Vostochny cosmodrome into low-near-earth orbit.
      1. -1
        13 December 2019 18: 04
        Quote: slipped
        LV "A5P" - launches 25 tons from the Vostochny cosmodrome into low-near-earth orbit.

        It doesn’t output, but it is planned that it will be output no earlier than 2024.
        1. +1
          13 December 2019 19: 22
          Quote: Lontus
          It doesn’t output, but it is planned that it will be output no earlier than 2024.


          Meant in view of its characteristics.
      2. +2
        13 December 2019 18: 59
        Quote: slipped
        Everything that is written in the article is already significantly outdated

        It seems to me that this note, one in a series of many similar ones, is just the beginning of probing public opinion on the subject of canceling this project - the Orel PTC. And the preparation of public opinion for this fact, because purely politically, it is now possible to cancel the Eagle, the people will not understand.
        Cancel the Eagle, as an expensive replacement (super-expensive) KK Soyuz is necessary and as soon as possible.
        Two target functions of the Eagle are announced:
        1. Crew transport ship on the ISS.
        The eagle is expensive, it will be much more expensive than the Union (several times) in operation as a carrier on the ISS. The Soyuz-2 launch vehicle, which is used, will put into orbit three times less (!!!) times less load than the A5 Angara launch vehicle planned for the Eagle. The cost of these missiles is simply not comparable. The eagle as a transport on the ISS is clearly overweight, the weights are different, the volumes are different. 3 people crew, which delivers the Union for the next 10 - 15 years is definitely enough. And as for me, it’s up to 50 years. another passenger flow into orbit just does not appear, this one would be saved.
        The eagle repeats the ideology of the Union, it is simply larger and "partially reusable", the latter is assumed, but, I suspect, it will not come true, because there is no way to reliably diagnose the thermal shield after landing in the Earth's atmosphere.
        The loads at the start and landing are the same; physically trained men and women are needed, respectively, a simple target tourist, pregnant fat uncle with dough under 70 years old, disappears.
        It turns out just an expensive replacement for the Union. And what for is it to us?
        That's when the passenger flow to the ISS appears, then it will be necessary to think about expanding it, but not so much, simply repeating the technical solutions of the 60s, which the brilliant engineer Feoktistov embodied.
        For example, it will be necessary to recall the MAKS project, which in the wingless version promised significant savings. Or, if so needed, it will be possible to increase the Union’s SA for the 4th crew member, and transfer the Union to the Soyuz-5 launch vehicle. I saw such studies, but I don’t remember where and when, perhaps in a dream fellow

        2. A ship for flying to the moon?
        This is generally something from the field of more propaganda than technology. Probably, under this slogan, clever guys from Roskosmos tricked Dima Anatolyevich for money when in 10 they knocked out financing.
        Dragging a heavy SA with thermal protection, but without radiation protection, into orbit of the moon and back? Well, this is nowhere ...
        In addition, returning with the 2nd cosmic velocity directly to the Earth’s atmosphere implies a very small spread in the angle of deviation of entry into the atmosphere (and in speed too !!!). A returned ship can either burn out or leave the atmosphere and fly into outer space ... This is a very dangerous way to return.
        This scheme of return from the moon was postponed to the side of 40 so-called years, even under Glushko.

        In general, we have KK Soyuz, it is good, reliable, not expensive. He is great! love
        In addition to finding a replacement for the Union, there is something to do when developing in-orbit operations: building a reusable expeditionary ship, TEM, a slipway for assembling large blocks, superheavy prefabricated satellites for GSO, etc.
        1. +3
          13 December 2019 19: 44
          Quote: Mityai65
          It seems to me that this note, one in a series of many similar ones, is just the beginning of probing public opinion on the subject of canceling this project - the Orel PTC.


          No. This is just an incomplete copy-paste with RIA.

          Quote: Mityai65
          Two target functions of the Eagle are announced:
          1. Crew transport ship on the ISS.


          No. Flights to the ISS on the NP PTK are planned only as part of the spacecraft flight design tests. The ISS crew rescue vehicle is Soyuz MS.

          Quote: Mityai65
          2. A ship for flying to the moon?


          For flights to the lunar orbit.

          Quote: Mityai65
          Dragging a heavy SA with thermal protection, but without radiation protection, into orbit of the moon and back? Well, this is nowhere ...


          Just on it there will be protection against radiation.

          Quote: Mityai65
          This is a very dangerous way to return.


          Earlier, with the second space velocity, the descent vehicles of the L1 ships returned.

          Quote: Mityai65
          In general, we have KK Soyuz, it is good, reliable, not expensive. He is great! love


          Modification of the Soyuz MS spacecraft is not intended for flights to the Moon. This is a purely low Earth orbit transport ship.
          1. 0
            13 December 2019 21: 34
            Quote: slipped
            Flights to the ISS at the PTK NP are planned only as part of the flight design tests of the spacecraft.

            It means something new. I remember there was such a statement, I don’t remember whose, but I didn’t pay attention, they already lie a lot with inspiration. Well, change shoes, boys jumping wink
            If the task of supplying the ISS and replacing the Union and Progress, based on it, has been removed, then this is already a real step towards the announcement of the cancellation of the project. And rightly so.
            Of course, they will really announce, as in the case of Clipper, a couple of years after the drawings are submitted to the archive ...
            Quote: slipped
            Just on it there will be protection against radiation.

            I have never seen anything on this topic anywhere except this one: The crew of the Federation ship will drink in flight protected from radiation coffee https://news.rambler.ru/other/41340480-ekipazh-korablya-federatsiya-budet-pit-v -polete-zaschischennyy-ot-radiatsii-kofe /? updated
            Even then I thought, why, in fact, coffee? According to the naval tradition, to "remove radiation" you need to drink cabernet ... it is both more fun and healthier drinks
            What did they come up with? Is there any kind of outgoing communication? Or individual anti-radiation screens with a focus on the sun?
            Quote: slipped
            Earlier, with the second space velocity, the descent vehicles of the L1 ships returned.

            So it was still under historical materialism ...
            Quote: slipped
            Modification of the Soyuz MS spacecraft is not intended for flights to the Moon. This is a purely low Earth orbit transport ship.

            So I’m talking about this - initially the Union was a Lunar ship, and to recreate on its basis the modification for flying to the Lunar orbit is not a problem. If you’ve already thought of dragging the lunar orbit of the SA and vice versa, then the cheaper option is with the Union. Two ships with SA in operation, similar in layout and design, this is generally some kind of absurdity - double costs.
            That is, we have the fortune that in the 3rd decade of the 21st century we will actually receive another Union, based on the same ideology, created in the 60s of the 20th century. Where we incurred expenses once, now we will bear 2 times ...
            What is the meaning of reusability SA Orla then?
            Do Rogozin, Sevastyanov and Krikalyov really do not understand what they did?
            I think they understand. And they probably think about how to carefully present everything to the people, demolish everything, as Glushko demolished N-1 at one time, and do something useful. And what to do, they have.
            1. +2
              14 December 2019 00: 22
              Quote: Mityai65
              It means something new.


              This became known in 2015.

              Quote: Mityai65
              If the task of supplying the ISS and replacing the Union and Progress, based on it, has been removed, then this is already a real step towards the announcement of the cancellation of the project.


              PTK NP was never planned instead of Progress. At the end of the 17s, the PPTS project had plans to use a light version for the delivery of astronauts to the ISS, but these were only plans. When they actually started production, it was abandoned, although, with a possible transfer of the tests of the ship to the "Irtysh" launch vehicle, it would have to be created, since the "Irtysh" launch vehicle would only bring about 2023 tons to LEO. The return of the future LCI of the ship in 5 back to the AXNUMXP will allow immediately working with the full version of the complex.

              Quote: Mityai65
              What did they come up with? Is there any kind of outgoing communication? Or individual anti-radiation screens with a focus on the sun?


              Radiation protection is provided by the spacecraft body and instrument panels. In addition, there are special chemicals for astronauts. During the flight around the Moon by the L1 spacecraft, in addition to animals, its payload also included a phantom human dummy with detectors, similar to Matryoshka currently on the ISS. The dose received was ultimately negligible.

              Quote: Mityai65
              So it was still under historical materialism ...


              It doesn't matter, the fact itself was and was successful.

              Quote: Mityai65
              So I’m talking about this - initially the Union was a Lunar ship, and to recreate on its basis the modification for flying to the Lunar orbit is not a problem.


              When the Soyuz was being created, apart from P7, there were no other means of launching cosmonauts into space. Hence its size and weight. Now there are more powerful efficient engines, which allow to increase both the size and comfort of the crew and the payload. It makes no sense to waste time redesigning the Soyuz, when you can make a larger ship in the same time.

              Quote: Mityai65
              If you’ve already thought of dragging the lunar orbit of the SA and vice versa, then the cheaper option is with the Union.


              Progress is planning to carry the load. With the help of A5B. This rocket can launch about 10 tons into a circumlunar orbit.

              Quote: Mityai65
              What is the meaning of reusability SA Orla then?


              PTC "Eagle" is a mock-up for testing, the same as 1.01 "Buran" was in its time. No human flights are planned on it. A repeated test launch with it is planned for the lunar carrier. By the way, MTKK "Buran" was also heavy. laughing Heredity can be said. Nothing, flew like clockwork.

              And so yes, the Returned Apparatus can be used up to 10 times. His TKP allows it. In principle, part of the Soyuz equipment is being used now.
    29. -2
      13 December 2019 17: 44
      Until the moon is now Russia! But you need to prepare the development ..
      would GLONAS be expanded or a station installed on the moon? he he
      1. -2
        14 December 2019 00: 58
        Quote: Starper-777
        Until the moon is now Russia! But you need to prepare the development ..

        calmly older. Let’s also have a look at Zhiguli’s Alpha / Betta-centaur
        Barack Obama is dying. After 10 years, he becomes bored, and he asks God to let him go to Earth to see how his country is doing. God is letting go.
        Obama in New York comes to the bar, orders a beer and asks the bartender how the country is doing, how it is developing, what problems it solves.
        The barman is surprised:
        - What problems can be? We are a great empire, everything around us.
        - How is ours? And Iraq, Afghanistan?
        - Yes, everything is already ours!
        - And Europe, Africa, the Middle East?
        The bartender takes out a globe from under the rack and twists it proudly:
        - I say - we are an empire, the whole world belongs to us!
        Obama, joyful, proud and contented, finishes his beer and says:
        - Well, thanks, friend! How much do I have to pay?
        Bartender:
        - One ruble and twenty cents...



        Where is Obama right now?
        1. 0
          14 December 2019 08: 07
          Quote: opus
          calmly older. Let’s also have a look at Zhiguli’s Alpha / Betta-centaur

          Got it ..! the Russian soul has always aspired to space (Tsialkovsky’s example), but they don’t give us our dream to fulfill completely .. Here we are at war constantly !! They are afraid that the Russians will fly away, but how would they be bored without us ..? wassat
          1. 0
            14 December 2019 11: 39
            the Russian soul always strove into space (Tsialkovsky example)
            - and the "Russian soul" did not learn to remember how the names of famous Russians are spelled correctly?) heh heh
            1. 0
              14 December 2019 14: 54
              Quote: Kirill Dou
              the Russian soul always strove into space (Tsialkovsky example)
              - and the "Russian soul" did not learn to remember how the names of famous Russians are spelled correctly?) heh heh

              Yes, I know that I was wrong and often wrong .. on this damn clave (what am I secretary?)))
              In general, I’m tired of talking to people like you bores .. They’re always looking for how to sneak and humiliate .. hehe
              And the Russian soul is in place, I certainly promise you that!
          2. -4
            14 December 2019 14: 48
            Who does not allow you to fulfill your dream? Are your oligarchs or irremovable?
            1. +1
              14 December 2019 14: 57
              Quote: Atomic Cosmic
              Who does not allow you to fulfill your dream? Are your oligarchs or irremovable?

              Yes, everything is simpler. lol .That like you catch and immediately be calmer hehe
              Hoping to be anonymous forever? bully
              1. -2
                14 December 2019 15: 45
                It turns out I'm stopping the Rassay space program to develop? I'm probably in the role of a trampoline thrower
    30. 0
      13 December 2019 20: 09
      the spacecraft Orel (formerly “Federation”) under development has a mass that is too high to fly to the moon.

      And I think the name "Eagle" for the Russian lunar module is vulgar and the whole world will laugh from it.
      Neil Armstrong's lunar module was called "Eagle" and it has been inscribed in history forever; none of the subsequent crews of the Apollo program dared to repeat this name for their module, modestly giving the names "Undaunted", etc.
      It is unfortunate that people working in the space industry do not know the elementary history of what they are doing. Therefore, it turns out all the time (the lunar module is not the only camouflage), double the superiority of the original TK.
      Although...
      it is not surprising if 65% of workers in this industry, led by its leader, sincerely believe that the Americans were not the Moon, and the Americans drilled a hole in the union, although I repeat - no shavings were found in the air filters ...
      1. -3
        13 December 2019 21: 48
        Quote: Bshkaus
        And I think the name "Eagle" for the Russian lunar module is vulgar and the whole world will laugh from it.

        Yes, the Eagle is still a god with him, although of course, it would be possible to come up with something more amusing ... But people who invented and approved the name Federation should be punished with a ban on work in the field of mental activity ...
        Quote: Bshkaus
        Neil Armstrong's lunar module was called "Eagle"

        Many things are called an eagle. And no one thinks about Neil Armstrong. Spit on us on the Nile belay
        I have an Armstrong suspended ceiling in my office - when I look at it, I sometimes think that we were on the moon almost 50 years ago ...
        1. 0
          13 December 2019 22: 12
          Many things are called an eagle. And no one thinks about Neil Armstrong.

          In everyday life, no, but any educated person who measures the temperature knows who Celsius is, looking at the outlet, he can at least superficially recall the experiments of Volta Galvana, Ohm, etc.
          The only thing I can admit is that by calling the LM "Eagle", we paid respect to Apollo - 11, but it's hard for me to believe that we are capable of this.

          Spit on us on the Nile

          But I don’t - Neil Armstrong, like other space pioneers, regardless of the country they were representatives of, were and are very brave and selfless people who risked their lives for great discoveries.
      2. -3
        14 December 2019 01: 04
        Quote: Bshkaus
        "Eagle" was the name of Neil Armstrong's lunar module and

        Eagle called him.

        our eagle seems to be different

        Quote: Bshkaus
        it is not surprising if 65% of workers in this industry, led by its leader, sincerely believe that the Americans were not the Moon,

        on the contrary, they vehemently believe in it
        Damn. Why are you so nervous?
        Believe in what you want.
        Article 29 of the Constitution of the Russian Federation:
        Everyone is guaranteed freedom of thought and speech.

        think
        1. -1
          14 December 2019 08: 19
          Quote: opus
          Everyone is guaranteed freedom of thought and speech.

          think

          Why do we need two-headed chicken?
          1. -1
            14 December 2019 15: 46
            Well, by inheritance from the Byzantines remained!
        2. -3
          14 December 2019 14: 49
          In Russia, even a mythical eagle, maybe because of this all the problems?
          1. -4
            14 December 2019 15: 43
            Quote: Atomic Cosmic
            In Russia, even a mythical eagle


            Two-headed:
            Sumerians, India
            Holy Roman Empire, Byzantium, German Union, Austrian Empire, Albania, Armenia
            Russia, Serbia, Montenegro ..
            Armed forces and law enforcement: a whole bunch.
            Do not touch our two-headed ..
            1. The comment was deleted.
    31. -1
      14 December 2019 08: 13
      Not diarrhea, so scrofula.
    32. 0
      15 December 2019 01: 19
      All rubbish. The author, seeking sensation, writes nonsense. The reason is not the illiteracy of the designers, but the fever of the choice of media. How many searches have been in the last five years? About 10 options? The design process itself is a long business. During this time, motorists, accountants, many times opened and closed versions of missile designs. To collect this guard and send to clear the nuclear test site on Novaya Zemlya. More sense would be.
    33. 0
      15 December 2019 01: 23
      Quote: vanavate
      I recalled the phrase S To Shoigu, when inspecting the equipment for combat swimmers: ,, What kind of composite is it for dicks? Lose weight ,, laughing By the way, if you throw out Rogozin, then this is immediately minus one hundred and twenty with a hook ...

      If you throw out all the sucked shobla, then we will defeat Earth's gravity. The mass of any ship will become negative.

    "Right Sector" (banned in Russia), "Ukrainian Insurgent Army" (UPA) (banned in Russia), ISIS (banned in Russia), "Jabhat Fatah al-Sham" formerly "Jabhat al-Nusra" (banned in Russia) , Taliban (banned in Russia), Al-Qaeda (banned in Russia), Anti-Corruption Foundation (banned in Russia), Navalny Headquarters (banned in Russia), Facebook (banned in Russia), Instagram (banned in Russia), Meta (banned in Russia), Misanthropic Division (banned in Russia), Azov (banned in Russia), Muslim Brotherhood (banned in Russia), Aum Shinrikyo (banned in Russia), AUE (banned in Russia), UNA-UNSO (banned in Russia), Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar People (banned in Russia), Legion “Freedom of Russia” (armed formation, recognized as terrorist in the Russian Federation and banned)

    “Non-profit organizations, unregistered public associations or individuals performing the functions of a foreign agent,” as well as media outlets performing the functions of a foreign agent: “Medusa”; "Voice of America"; "Realities"; "Present time"; "Radio Freedom"; Ponomarev; Savitskaya; Markelov; Kamalyagin; Apakhonchich; Makarevich; Dud; Gordon; Zhdanov; Medvedev; Fedorov; "Owl"; "Alliance of Doctors"; "RKK" "Levada Center"; "Memorial"; "Voice"; "Person and law"; "Rain"; "Mediazone"; "Deutsche Welle"; QMS "Caucasian Knot"; "Insider"; "New Newspaper"