Military Review

Such a bad Russian cartridge ...

76
Such a bad Russian cartridge ...

On the expanses of one well-known media, we came across an article in which the question was asked: “Why are Russian ammunition scolded but bought?” And the question is discussed there that the Russian cartridge barbarously scratches and wears the trunks of foreign rifles with a fine mental organization.


And at the same time I come across an article, translating which, we find out with considerable surprise that the Americans are really complaining about the Russian cartridge. More precisely, its deficit in stores. If you believe the statistics, it turns out that in the United States the shortage of our cartridges is measured in millions of pieces.

And it became somehow strange even. Well, the truth is, a bad cartridge in short supply is something strange at all. Or not really.

We will understand a little, if only in order to really answer for ourselves the question: is our civilian cartridge so bad?

So here. We will begin, probably, with the fact that the same caliber at best guarantees a bullet fly out of the barrel. It is known worldwide that when rubbing two objects, one that is softer wears out. And the fact that foreign rifles are developed for "their" cartridge and bullet, respectively.

Now a little more theory with numbers.

They say that the whole problem is in the technology of making a bullet. Indeed, in the after 30-ies we switched from cupronickel shell to tompakova.

Recall that cupronickel alloy is an alloy of copper with nickel in a ratio of up to 30% nickel.

Tompak alloy is an alloy of copper and zinc with a content of not more than 10% zinc. It features high anti-friction properties. In this case, both alloys have approximately the same hardness.

Now a little about the trunks.

That domestic, that foreign gunsmiths use the technology of chrome barrel and bolt parts, while reducing wear and increasing anti-friction qualities. However, the chrome resource of the standard AK-74 is about 15 thousand shots, and the basic version of the AR-15 rifle family ends already at 6 thousand.

About the conditions under which Kalash can function, that in the military, in the civilian (yeah, find five differences) versions, we will not even compare. Tired of it.

Why is this all? But to what.

Remembering the shooting of material about ASVK “Kord”, one had to see the expression on the face of the owner of the rifle, who was told that today you will shoot anti-aircraft cartridges, he is 7БЗ2е.

And there’s nothing to be done, they were given out.


And we understand him, because for her (rifle) there is a separate cartridge called 12,7x108 with the index 7Н34.


But this is if we talk about special-purpose cartridges.

Although I believe that this is the salt for special purposes, that for a sniper rifle - a sniper cartridge. For an anti-aircraft machine gun - a cartridge with an armor-piercing incendiary bullet.

And after all, there are a huge number of such examples, the variety of cartridges simply cannot be counted.

It’s enough to remember about 5.45х39 7Н39, about which few people know, but it is and should have replaced the standard 7Н24 BS, but, apparently, until the time has come.


There were enough articles about the assortment of cartridges, cartridges, calibers and indexes.

Why is this all?

Someone for some reason, for some reason, deliberately pushes the thought that we are doing well, but TAM is doing better by relying on athletes.

Think about it: somewhere in the world someone is doing things to kill people better than us. Well, really laughter parses, to be honest and serious.

Immediately it appears a kind of spherical conic in a vacuum Athlete who wants high accuracy and balanced automation from Bushmaster (Bushmaster Firearms International) with reliability and AK resource.

Because good ammo is expensive to shoot, and cheap ammo is bad (who would have thought).

For example, 308 WIN of one of the stores on the network: RWS Target Elite - 450 p.


The RWS Target Elite features HPBT's extremely accurate, elongated match bullets. Due to the characteristic cavity in the warhead and the ideal bullet shape from the point of view of external ballistics, the ammunition has extremely stable aerodynamic properties and the highest accuracy. All cartridges of this series are intended for sports use only, since they are not designed for the controlled mushroom-like deformation characteristic of hunting ammunition.

RWS 11,7 HMK - 187 p.


A feature of the RWS HMK bullet is a jumper in the shape of the intended break point in the middle of the shell. It supports the separation of two cores of a bullet of a different level of stiffness and is partially responsible for the double action of this bullet. The front part breaks down after the game enters the body very quickly, with a high release of energy.

This guarantees maximum efficiency. The cylindrical tail of the RWS HMK bullet detaches in the thread area, piercing even large bodies without significant deformation. As a result of the tail suction effect, the fragments of the front bullet cores mainly leave the body of the game.

The conclusion here is very simple. There have never been any sporting cartridges in our country, the only difference between the army and the civilian was in the core.

Lead in civilian, steel in army. Everything is simple, like the machine for which the cartridge was invented.


Cartridges marking PSO, FMJ, etc. Is a commercial product for the civilian market. They will not break through steel centimeters and fly with sniper accuracy. This is not necessary for anyone except athletes who do not want to spend money on high-precision cartridges. And to draw conclusions on their opinion is extremely illogical.

So, if you look at the goals and objectives, quite ample decent cartridges are produced by us. No wonder they are not enough in the United States for everyone, not in vain.
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  1. IL-64
    IL-64 13 December 2019 05: 12
    +55
    What is the article about? About what different cartridges are for different tasks? They took an info-reason and wrote an article. From the series "about nothing". Mentioned about the tombak shell, forgetting to develop the idea. Feeling that the article consists of separate pieces, pulled from different sources
    1. Deck
      Deck 13 December 2019 06: 53
      +27
      Bullets HPBT (hollow nose conical tail) differ from FMJ (all-metal shell) manufacturing technology. In HPBT, a bullet cup blank is crimped in the matrix to the toe. Therefore, there remains a cavity and a hole. In HPBT, the nose is wrinkled, the bullet is strongly deformed and is prohibited for military use (although snipers around the world use them) In FMJ, on the contrary, there is a hole in the bottom. There is even a film with the same name about the Vietnam War. This bullet when it enters the body is slightly deformed and fragmented. It fully meets its task - to hurt, not to kill. The design allows them to be made with a core or tracer.
      AR-15 is also made with a chrome barrel.
      And cheap Russian cartridges are not packaged, but bimitalic. Steel bullets coated with tompak and steel sleeve. Here they are loved, because 10 cents a bucket. The trunk is fast horses, but the trunk is also cheap (in the USA). Shoot the banks.
      In general, an article on the level for the "Murzilka" magazine
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 13 December 2019 07: 10
        +4
        Quote: Deck
        It fully meets its task - to hurt, not to kill
        They don’t put a red X on them, for such an incredible humanity?
        1. Deck
          Deck 13 December 2019 08: 27
          +15
          This is not humanity, but calculation. Burying is cheaper than curing. Do not know?
          1. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 13 December 2019 08: 41
            0
            Of course, that
            Quote: Deck
            Burying is cheaper than curing
            but with the amendment: Bury killed cheaper than treating the wounded. Specify more precisely. )
            That's just
            Quote: Deck
            It fully meets its task - to hurt, not to kill
            the bullet has the task of hitting and inflicting damage, moreover, poorly controlled. Only the shooter can perform the "only wound" task. I think the difference between hitting the head and hitting the body covered with a bulletproof vest is obvious.
            Quote: Deck
            In FMJ, on the contrary, there is a hole in the bottom. There is even a film with the same name about the Vietnam War. This bullet when hit in the body is slightly deformed and fragmented
            Yeah, especially 5,56, not the slightest deformation. Just turned her ass forward, and from this hole "behind" lead spray added "love"
          2. bk0010
            bk0010 13 December 2019 15: 05
            0
            Then, that earlier the wounded became disabled, and now - a veteran who returned to duty. The medicine was tightened, the alignment changed.
    2. Monster_Fat
      Monster_Fat 13 December 2019 07: 59
      +7
      The same is not "drove" about what the article is about .... It seems that the author is kind of erring that "Russian cartridges" are of the "bad" type, but they are not enough for everyone abroad ... He also notes why there is not enough, they are just abroad they are sold much cheaper than imported ones and for shooting games, which the Western public is fond of, they are better than them, and it is not necessary, the main thing is very cheap, almost "for nothing" ...
      1. Astra wild
        Astra wild 13 December 2019 16: 37
        0
        And for free it's even better. Personally, you agree to get a hundred cartridges for free Barnaul or 10 Serbian "Partizan"
        1. Doliva63
          Doliva63 13 December 2019 18: 32
          +3
          Quote: Astra wild
          And for free it's even better. Personally, you agree to get a hundred cartridges for free Barnaul or 10 Serbian "Partizan"

          Interestingly, in the army whose patrons we had? And they got in a heap, and the trunks did not suffer. And if you take the RPKS, then with optics at 500 m. It was possible to get into the ear. Staff cartridge.
      2. Shelest2000
        Shelest2000 13 December 2019 18: 03
        +1
        that the Americans really complain about the Russian cartridge. More precisely, its deficit in stores. If you believe the statistics, it turns out that in the United States the shortage of our cartridges is measured in millions of pieces.

        A few years ago I came across an article with the data that, before the sanctions, the US purchased from Russia one to two billion !!!! cartridges of various calibers annually.
        1. Nyrobsky
          Nyrobsky 13 December 2019 20: 30
          +2
          Quote: Shelest2000
          A few years ago I came across an article with the data that, before the sanctions, the US purchased from Russia one to two billion !!!! cartridges of various calibers annually.

          The last time the contract for the supply of cartridges was in 2011, in 2013, shipped to the last zinc.
          1. Shelest2000
            Shelest2000 14 December 2019 13: 14
            +3
            And there is. And these cartridges they have are much cheaper than ours. To paraphrase:
            For each question there is a clear answer:
            They have an arms market, but we don’t have one.
    3. Yrec
      Yrec 13 December 2019 09: 10
      +13
      Our cartridge is several times cheaper than the mattress cartridge, if only because of the steel sleeve versus the brass one. 7,62x39 mattresses are used in "Kalashoids" not intended for sniper shooting. As a rule, they are watered in bursts. Therefore, the issue price comes first.
      PySy. Whoever craps in bursts always gets ammo.
    4. Nyrobsky
      Nyrobsky 13 December 2019 10: 26
      0
      Quote: IL-64
      What is the article about? About what different cartridges are for different tasks? They took an info-reason and wrote an article. From the series "about nothing". Mentioned about the tombak shell, forgetting to develop the idea. Feeling that the article consists of separate pieces, pulled from different sources

      The idea that despite all kinds of designs, alloys and design features, our cartridge remains reliable and is popular in the country of residence of our "sworn friends".
      So, if you look at the goals and objectives, quite ample decent cartridges are produced by us. No wonder they are not enough in the United States for everyone, not in vain.
      But in 2011-2013, the United States purchased about 1 billion rounds of 7,62x39 from Russia and come on, all the parasites shot. request
    5. Ehanatone
      Ehanatone 13 December 2019 22: 45
      +3
      "The feeling that the article consists of separate pieces, pulled from different sources"
      Well, apparently this is the corporate identity of a certain young pack of paper and / or claudia krivova kiril ...
  2. tracer
    tracer 13 December 2019 05: 39
    +4
    You're right Roman. This is exactly how it is. Russian patrons are loved because of the price. About the "whales" converting 5.56 to 7.62 automatic on some rifles and I will not speak. Of course, there is better, for example, "Lapua" produce a series of ammunition of different calibers, but they are many times more expensive than Russian ones. And in shooting, the main thing is practice. Now there is little Russian in North America. The remnants of the old Soviet era swept everything out long ago. Chinese cartridges are now buying 7.62 × 39 and 5.56 × 45, including 7.62 × 25 and 9 × 19. They have dirty gunpowder.
    Well, why are you delaying Timeout. Tsipa, Tsipa ...
    1. Astra wild
      Astra wild 13 December 2019 16: 43
      +1
      I did not shoot with the Chinese, but with the Tula bullets. I heard from friends that Turkish cartridges are better than "Chinese", but we are talking about hunting cartridges
      And I know the combat 5,45. I heard from the elders that they used to make high-quality cartridges in Lugansk, but I didn’t find them
    2. Timeout
      Timeout 30 December 2019 08: 16
      0
      Quote: tracer
      You are right, Roman.

      Deflection counted.
      Quote: tracer
      Now there is little Russian in North America.

      Especially network ormages ... TulAmmo, Wolf, Brown bear and no shortage. They are repacked, all through transit countries, from firms from offshore companies and no sanctions help.
      Quote: tracer
      Chinese cartridges are now buying and 7.62 × 39 and 5.56 × 45 including 7.62 × 25 and 9 × 19.

      It’s just that you can’t meet the Chinese in the afternoon with fire, only at auctions and ganshows, the hans of the loopholes have not been left without a word at all, because Norinco has been under sanctions since the end of 2017.
      Quote: tracer
      Well, why are you delaying Timeout.

      Unlike "tracers" I work, there is no time to constantly hang in the internet.
      Quote: tracer
      Tsipa, Tsipa ...

      In, we have announced the king of the poultry yard?
      1. Timeout
        Timeout 30 December 2019 17: 21
        0
        Yes, "tracer", so sleep ... It's five o'clock in the morning in Toronto, and you're minus. Not really, there are no other things to do, how to hang out on VO at such a time? Immediately evident, the victim of the exam. So, hello, Far East. At the expense of senile insomnia, just do not sing, not relevant. Will you start talking about bloody boys?
  3. Sergey_G_M
    Sergey_G_M 13 December 2019 06: 30
    +7
    Basically, the quality of our cartridges suffers due to the poor quality of our gunpowders. And the gradual deterioration of equipment at the cartridge factories makes itself felt - the quality decreases, investing in new equipment is expensive but the cartridges are cheap.
  4. The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 13 December 2019 07: 21
    +1
    I agree, the article failed. Starting with the primary sources: "... in one ... in the other .." And also a chaotic gallop on the topic. In a nutshell - price and quality. For some reason, the author did not mention that in the modern realities of the same Donbass, snipers buy sports cartridges for combat missions. Well, of course, all this is not needed for the machine gunner defending the patch. There, just bring the zinc, and stuff the ribbons ...
  5. Per se.
    Per se. 13 December 2019 08: 21
    +6
    So, if you look at the goals and objectives, quite ample decent cartridges are produced by us. No wonder they are not enough in the United States for everyone, not in vain.
    Thank you for the topic as a whole, for the rest ... The quality of the cartridge is not only and not so much the alloy or the design of the sleeve or bullet itself, it is primarily the quality of the capsule and gunpowder used. Personally, I first learned about this at the Spartakiad of the Peoples of the USSR in the summer of 1979, where I happened to be and hear the opinions of our shooters.
  6. BAI
    BAI 13 December 2019 08: 49
    +8
    More precisely, its deficit in stores. If you believe the statistics, it turns out that in the United States the shortage of our cartridges is measured in millions of pieces.

    As a person who once had some relation to the production of cartridges, I can say that there is an export performance for the domestic market. And that says it all (I apologize for the tautology).
    1. Ingenegr
      Ingenegr 13 December 2019 09: 07
      -1
      Export performance - is it a beautiful bundle with Latin text?
      1. Fibrizio
        Fibrizio 13 December 2019 14: 59
        +3
        They are in Latin and for us. On refinery liners, LVE is written, for example. All by world standard.
  7. 7,62x54
    7,62x54 13 December 2019 09: 16
    +7
    Amers have a shortage of our cartridge because they supply them to barmaley around the world.
  8. However, dear
    However, dear 13 December 2019 10: 17
    +3
    As for the shortage of Russian cartridges in the United States, there is doubt. Here is an American site where you can buy ammunition and weapons. We look at 9mm, for example. Russian is really the cheapest: 14-16 cents per cartridge. But American start at 17 cents.

    https://www.budsgunshop.com/search.php/type/Ammunition/caliber/10000837-9mm/sort/per-round-asc
    1. bairat
      bairat 13 December 2019 11: 48
      +1
      The owner of this site (www.budsgunshop.com) has denied access to this site to the country or region in which your IP address is located. )))
      1. However, dear
        However, dear 13 December 2019 19: 47
        0
        Visiting foreign sites, you could see offensive messages like "Content is not available in your country." This is a typical picture for Western music and video services that block their sites outside of Europe and the United States. Life hacker talks about ways to circumvent such restrictions.

        Due to the prohibition of funds to bypass locks, some of the tools listed in the article may not work in the territory of the Russian Federation since November 2017.

        1. Install VPN plugins for desktop browsers
        Perhaps this way to bypass the lock is the easiest. It is enough to install a VPN plug-in for your browser and enable the function while working with resources inaccessible in the country.

        Everything is elementary: you click on the button and the extension puts the browser into a special mode in which geographical restrictions do not apply. When you finish working with an unlocked site, you can turn off a VPN just as easily with a single click.

        https://lifehacker.ru/kak-poluchit-dostup-k-nedostupnym-v-vashejj-strane-sajjtam/
    2. However, dear
      However, dear 13 December 2019 20: 07
      -1
      I wrote already, the price of 9 mm Luger is almost no different between Russian and cheap American. Out of curiosity, I looked at 7.62. there yes, the difference is greater. Russians go from 29 to 44 cents, while locals start at 52 cents per cartridge.

      https://www.budsgunshop.com/search.php/type/Ammunition/caliber/10000660-308+Winchester+(7.62+NATO)/sort/per-round-asc

      1. Tamer
        Tamer 14 December 2019 23: 47
        0
        On the same site, the "Orthodox" cartridge 7,62x39 goes out for me - the difference is one and a half to two times.
        You have a selection of 308 Wines (7,62x51), but there they are 0,29 against 0,53 - almost double.
        by 223 - the result is slightly worse, but with free shipping))
        Prices on various sites also vary, the cheapest "Orthodox" one on this site is 17 cents more expensive per pack (20 pieces) than on the first random one.
        In addition, in the States you can buy reload cartridges - they are assembled in artisanal conditions on used sleeves, are cheap, can be sold in pieces, "buckets" and by weight)), especially at fairs and small-town shooting competitions.
        Cheap American cartridges often come with a steel sleeve or aluminum.
        Cartridges from Russia were driven to the United States in huge batches, their popularity was due to the price, tk. "cheaper than dirt", and sanctions hit at least one plant seriously, as far as I know
        1. However, dear
          However, dear 15 December 2019 00: 00
          -1
          Yes, on different sites you can find slightly different prices. But despite several years of sanctions, there is no shortage of Russian ammunition.
  9. Wildcat
    Wildcat 13 December 2019 10: 21
    +10
    Just a brain explosion, not an article.
    1. "Someone for some reason, for some reason, deliberately pushes the thought" - well, get acquainted, find out why.
    2. "Think about it: somewhere in the world someone does things for killing people better than us. Well, really, laughter makes out, to be honest and serious." - it is better to talk to a specialist about laughter and its reasons.
    3. "Because good cartridges are expensive to shoot, and cheap ones are bad (who would have thought)." - Well, it is, Captain Obvious, what is the question?
    The author has an idea about the designs of bullets, but the level of these is certainly not "for the magazine" Murzilka "", but even the magazine "Kalashnikov" does not pull.
    4. "Americans really complain about the Russian cartridge. More precisely, about its shortage in stores." - Well .... the author heard about the sanctions? Sold (sold long ago) the remnants of the parties, imported before the sanctions. On the subject: "The sanctions closed for us many markets that had good potential. Naturally, the American market also closed. In general, due to the sanctions, domestic producers lose about 10 billion rubles of revenue per year. It is easy to calculate what amount is obtained for everything. five years of sanctions. "

    Read more at RBC:
    https://www.rbc.ru/newspaper/2019/03/01/5c6e4af99a79471afd14c1c5"
  10. Alexey Kurtov
    Alexey Kurtov 13 December 2019 11: 20
    +1
    Sports cartridges existed — for example cartridges (7.62 / 54 and 5.6 / 39) for the Running Deer exercise with an aluminum core.
  11. Wildcat
    Wildcat 13 December 2019 11: 44
    +16
    hi wink
    Something good mood!
    It seems that they managed to find a source of American complaints:
    "The sun is shining brightly over the state of Lone Star Texas, but the faces of ordinary Texans are not happy. Two cowboys in front of the gun store, Smoking Barrel, cursing softly, were next to our special correspondent Romulus.
    “Hi, gayes,” Romulus called to them, “you cowboys, look at the gun shop, as if you had voted for Clinton!” Friday, gayz, go get ammo!
    “Sir, I'm Thornton Jenkins, and this is my friend Samuel Nicholas, and we don’t like what we see!”
    “We don't like it, sir,” repeated Nicholas.
    -Sir, me, Thornton Jenkins, and my friend on Friday regularly bought cartridges for our Kalash for shooting at banks and bottles, but now we can not afford more than 2 stores, damn, excuse me sir!
    “Sir,” said Nicholas, “we used to take Russian cartridges, and we were pleased with them, but now we have to take expensive cartridges with elongated HPBT match bullets or with RWS HMK bullets, and they’re not at all right on the banks and especially the bottles, sir!” Yes, we don’t understand what ABC RWS HMK HPBT is, oh, sir!
    - Gentlemen, I'm sorry to interfere - a noble farmer turned to us - I am Presley OBannon, and I also suffer from the lack of Russian cartridges! I am not a rich man, and feed my family meat of pronghorn Texas moose. And on one moose, I, an old man, spend up to 100 rounds of my Mosin-Nagan rifle. I can no longer afford so many cartridges, and my family will switch to fish!
    Our special correspondent, Romulus, heard similar words in Dixie Heart Alabama, Last Frontier Alaska and Rainbow State Hawaii. In Apple State, Washington, a simple worker Littleton Waller complained to Romulus that he often shoots himself from robbers, and a year ago he was forced to start counting shots (which he did not do when he had a bucket of Russian cartridges for his Beretta M9).
    The "patron famine" hit hard on ordinary people and the economy, but the greatest damage was inflicted on the international prestige of the country, which took the path of "patron famine". "
    wassat hi
  12. Knell wardenheart
    Knell wardenheart 13 December 2019 12: 03
    -1
    umm .. conduct market monitoring on demand and prices. To weigh the question purely economically .. If the bourgeoisie is ready to buy sports cartridges of high quality for $$$ - why not do and sell? If it will be profitable
    1. Fibrizio
      Fibrizio 13 December 2019 14: 57
      +3
      Can not. Here we need repeatability.
      Secondly, the purchase of imported gunpowder (you won’t be able to make good of your own). If you buy - there 40-60r per cartridge will be only gunpowder. There is no need to tell tales about the Kazan plant. I have their powder, in the know how to cook.
      No capsules suitable.
      Barnaul now began to produce bullets for equipment at home chopped. There is no repeatability either.
      Summarize. No gunpowder, no bullets, no capsules. Sleeves seem to do. But what tolerances are there, I do not know.
      The result - even if we want to - cannot. At least for now.

      Our everything is mass production, here we have no equal.
  13. Undecim
    Undecim 13 December 2019 12: 05
    +9
    By means of complex integral calculations, I came to the conclusion that the author wanted to convince the reader with an article that the cartridges for the Russian civilian market were "quite decent." As a fundamental proof of this postulate, the author uses the "argument" about the shortage of Russian cartridges in the American market. This information was obtained through such secret channels that the author categorically classified the source as a source.
    Let's try to verify this statement.
    We open at random the first American online store MidwayUSA and look at the offer of the very "Russian" cartridge 7,62x54R. And what we see.

    Ten sentences. Of these, two are directly from Russia, civilians from TulAmmo and army in standard zinc, 440 pieces each from the 1977 cartridge plant in XNUMX.
    The price of the cartridge is $ 0,46-0,50. But Serbian from Prvi partizan Užice are already twice as expensive as $ 0,80-0,95 apiece. Next comes the Winchester with a price of $ 1,2 - $ 1,3 apiece and Lapua with a price of $ 3,00 per cartridge.
    Using simple calculations, we determine that for three dollars an American amateur shoot can buy six Russian rounds, three Serbian, two American and one Finnish.
    That's the whole riddle of popularity. If there is a desire to shoot in the white light - the Russian cartridge is beyond competition.
    But there is no shortage. Ammo in bulk.
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 13 December 2019 12: 37
      +3
      For completeness, consider the "American" cartridge 308 Win / 7.62x51. There are certainly much more offers here. There are also Russian ones. Tulammo offers at $ 0,28-0,30 per cartridge, Barnaul at $ 0,32 per cartridge. There are no lower prices. Even Malaysia is more expensive - $ 0,40 apiece. Italian Fiocchi are around the dollar, and the local Remington is already $ 1,35, the Swiss P Subsonic is $ 2,50 and beyond.
      That is, the ratio is about the same; a shooter can buy either one Swiss cartridge or a dozen Russian ones.
      Those who wish can see the prices on the American market and the range themselves - https://www.sgammo.com.
    2. Octopus
      Octopus 14 December 2019 04: 05
      +3
      Quote: Undecim
      If there is a desire to shoot in the white light - the Russian cartridge is beyond competition.

      Naturally, the question is not worth a damn.

      If the user shoots a lot, does not require high accuracy, is not afraid of delays and distortions (the paper will not answer), he is ready to clean his weapons every day, not the most capricious, Russian cartridges are cheaper - a normal choice. It is not necessary to shoot in pans, maybe the user does not focus on accuracy, but on working with weapons, for example, in the format of practical shooting.

      If the user wants accuracy or is simply not going to get used to the r - the Russian cartridge is unacceptable.

      The USSR did and has made a cheap cartridge for a cheap weapon and a cheap soldier. He did well, one cannot but admit it. Another thing is that not everyone is ready to feel like cheap soldiers for their own money.

      What the authors wanted to depict on this subject was hardly understood by themselves.
  14. evgen1221
    evgen1221 13 December 2019 12: 25
    -2
    It is precisely the author who raises not an unimportant detail of our mentality, namely, the lack of worship of the West and unaware of the details. Once such a massive psychosis (you cannot call it otherwise) has already buried the country and millions of lives. Truly a feather is stronger than a sword.
    1. Fibrizio
      Fibrizio 13 December 2019 14: 48
      +5
      Psychosis begins with owners of expensive imported trunks when burnout forms on the shutter mirror due to capsule caps and steel sleeves.
      The author, too, to say the least, just mentioned bullets. How many varieties of bullets do domestic plants produce in total? For one caliber of 15 pieces, I think a maximum of maximum.
      one company Lapua produces only 20-30 pieces per caliber.
      Bullets are made for tasks.
      Tell me the analogue of bullets paw scenario (extremely accurate and flat, for example, say hello to a groundhog in the steppes at 400 meters) or mega (ballistics like a refrigerator, but if you hit, then no one else runs) in domestic industry. They are not here.
      The question then becomes, what is the argument about? Of course, you can buy a paper shoot at a refinery (but certainly not a barnaul). And when you need to shoot at a bio-target, for which you rolled off 80 rubles (an elk for example), then you need a result.
      Also, our domestic bullets, except maybe the extras from the refinery, can not be considered accurate (oh my God, it is a tompakova and brass sleeve, this is apparently a zrad!).
      And on gunpowder, after the shooting of the refinery in the svtol sea of ​​kaki. And after S&B or PPU (I call firms quite affordable) - more or less clean. No crurits and tar.

      So in summary, ours can be shot either on paper, or if the hunt is not responsible (or the goal is not far).
      Also, I will not bore people who are not in the subject of why a steel sleeve is worse than brass. It is necessary - read. There are a number of reasons, therefore, a steel sleeve is a variant of wartime.
      1. Sergey_G_M
        Sergey_G_M 13 December 2019 16: 43
        0
        About the groundhog at 400 meters you pleased me))
        Yes, and I want precision on paper, but on the bottles or training IPSC and burning hundreds of cartridges it is very profitable to use a cheap cartridge.
        And so in general I agree with you.
      2. evgen1221
        evgen1221 13 December 2019 17: 38
        0
        There is still such a thing as saving, in our country it is more profitable to shoot from expensive trunks, I think with imported cartridges because the barrel is expensive and the repair is long. The author mentioned the states and deficiency of our cartridges there, but I’ll give the guns cheap and shoot a lot and love overdraft, and here the cheaper the cartridge, the better and buy cheap new weapons. That's the essence of the article, as I understand it.
  15. Radikal
    Radikal 13 December 2019 12: 30
    +5
    On the expanses of one well-known media, we came across an article in which the question was asked: “Why are Russian ammunition scolded but bought?” And the question is discussed there that the Russian cartridge barbarously scratches and wears the trunks of foreign rifles with a fine mental organization.
    What is the article in which "the cartridges scratch and wear out the barrel"? lol A cartridge can "scratch" the chamber, but a bullet wears out the barrel. bully
    1. tracer
      tracer 13 December 2019 15: 24
      0
      Well, do not carp, everyone understands what they mean. I am now less actively involved in shooting sports mainly hunting and I for example perfectly understand what is being discussed. In addition, the detail is important. Combat cartridges are still combat metal and all components are designed for mass production in the war years. A lot and cheap. Imported or branded sports as you like, made of more expensive components, hence the price. Yes, live ammunition does NOT wear military weapons more.
  16. VLADIMIR VLADIVOSTOK
    VLADIMIR VLADIVOSTOK 13 December 2019 12: 54
    +4
    In kindergarten they know this topic. Stste is not a huge minus.
  17. Sergey Averchenkov
    Sergey Averchenkov 13 December 2019 14: 13
    -1
    I do not want to go into details, a normal cartridge, and who wants something more, well, take it apart, do it yourself ... Somehow.
  18. Simargl
    Simargl 13 December 2019 14: 31
    +3
    So, if you look at the goals and objectives, quite ample decent cartridges are produced by us. No wonder they are not enough in the United States for everyone, not in vain.
    Naturally! If you ring targets with 50-100 m - that’s it. As soon as you have to compete in accuracy, it turns out that the hitch is walking, the bullets are not the same in weight and the curves ...
    Take the simplest: even 5,6 LR bought in the USSR with a steel sleeve were greased with a thick layer of grease-like grease, and with a brass one they were clean. Match matches are generally dry.
  19. bk0010
    bk0010 13 December 2019 15: 22
    +6
    Judging by the optimism of the author, he does not have his own weapon. But what if you are willing to pay for good bullets? Why do not we have such? For post-shootings for half a kilometer or more, people are forced to disassemble a cartridge, to fill up or pour out gunpowder, even a bullet walks around - they collect cartridges in groups. Well that’s all right - fans, even match cartridges may not suit them. But here's the thing: when Kalash began to be sold in the States, it suddenly became clear that his accuracy was not worse than the M4, if you shoot with state bullets. How so, damn it? A US cartridge under our Kalash gives the best result (despite the fact that we have been doing it for a decade, and these have only just begun), how is that? And what kind of gunpowder do we have? Why is so much more soot from him? Is he blackened with black powder? The fact that our cartridges are cheap is good, now it is necessary that we have good domestic cartridges.
    1. Simargl
      Simargl 13 December 2019 17: 48
      +1
      Quote: bk0010
      And what kind of gunpowder do we have? Why is so much more soot from him? Is he blackened with black powder?
      I think so:
      - gunpowder is made from cellulose,
      - pulp is taken from wood ...
      ... the wood does not burn through to the end ...
    2. However, dear
      However, dear 13 December 2019 20: 29
      -1
      In my experience, I shot the cheapest TulAmmo 9mm. After 120 shots, the pistol ceased to throw out the sleeve due to soot. Nothing like this happened with non-Russian cartridges, which are slightly more expensive (10%) even after 200 rounds.
    3. your1970
      your1970 19 December 2019 18: 50
      0
      Quote: bk0010
      And what kind of gunpowder do we have? Why is so much more soot from him? Is he blackened with black powder?
      -There is a nuance - in the USA their cotton is heaped - and we have all the imported
      Cotton powder based on cotton nitrocellulose burns much better ...
  20. Foundling
    Foundling 13 December 2019 16: 13
    +5
    I read the article and did not see the main problems, because of which they scolded domestic cartridges. Actually, all buyers of the Russian windshield, regardless of the manufacturer, whether it’s Novosib, Tulammo, Barnaul or any other domestic one, noticed that in a pack of 20 rounds you will not find a single bullet of the same size or weight. However, Extra is available with the same jambs. And this guarantees tears and a significant spread of accuracy. Those. to pick up a box (20 pcs.) of cartridges of the same weight and fit, for example, in 7,62x39 you have to buy and sort out a box of 500 pcs.! In imported cartridges there is no such problem, but .... expensive. Thus, many thanks to the lawmakers who allowed the reload. For self-made cartridges are distinguished by the accuracy of the hitching and landing of the bullet. In addition, military ammunition is prohibited for the civilian market, but thanks to the permitted reload, I bought military bullets with a heat-strengthened core (LPS) from a parsing and made myself cartridges for KO-44. So, reload is the most normal output in terms of price-quality ratio!
    1. Fibrizio
      Fibrizio 16 December 2019 11: 08
      +1
      Import also has a spread in Col, gunpowder and bullet weight, only usually much less + also the powder is the same every time. Fewer unpredictable factors.
      The reload is beneficial for those who regularly shoot. For hunting, it’s cheaper to buy 30 RWS or Norms and forget about buying cartridges forever.
      The reload is interesting first of all:
      1. Fans
      2. Fans
      3. Athletes or those who shoot a lot.
      4. Hunters with exotic or elephant calibers.
      5. Hunters subject to paragraph 1 and 2. =)
  21. ssergey1978
    ssergey1978 13 December 2019 17: 38
    0
    7.62x39 BPZ excellent cartridges. The half shell works great. Steel sleeve is never a problem. Gunpowder Barnaul lays a good one. Accuracy and stability are good. Americans value our ammo.
  22. vitinka
    vitinka 13 December 2019 20: 51
    +1
    Ja ohotnik, kupil Karabin Blaser R8 (germany), znakomij predlogal kupitj "Cink" Nato patroni 308. cal, po cene 0.30 centov, cena otlicnaja, tot ze patron RWS dlja ohoti stoit v Latviji 2.80 eur. Poprosil prodavcov sto oni ob etom dumajut! Otvet bil takoij. Budes streljatj Armeiskimi potronami NATO, 1000 visterlov i stol na svalku (1200Eur), Barnaulskimi jesli streljat 600 vistrelov i rezultat totze, stvol v metalalom. Ponel sto mne eto nenado, zarezaju potroni sam. U nas eto razreseno.
    1. xax
      xax 13 December 2019 21: 50
      +2
      Quote: vitinka
      Poprosil prodavcov sto oni ob etom dumajut!

      I did everything right. Sellers are, of course, the most impartial and the most sham experts in the world laughing
    2. However, dear
      However, dear 13 December 2019 23: 24
      -1
      https://translit.net/ Пользуйтесь этим сайтом, чтоб писать по-русски с английской клавиатуры.
      1. V.I.F.
        V.I.F. 13 December 2019 23: 31
        0
        Quote: However, Dear
        Use this site to write in Russian from the English keyboard.

        Do not scratch your leg with your ear, buy a normal clave, on which there will be normal Russian bukaffki. Today in the Internet shops why not.
    3. Fibrizio
      Fibrizio 16 December 2019 11: 14
      0
      About 600 lie of course, but if you shoot with bimetal, then the resource will decrease, but still it's thousands and not hundreds. Especially from R8 to 308. In 300win mag, the resource is an order of magnitude lower, well, or 6,5 grendel. And in 308 if for hunting - you will never kill the trunk.
      And about the army - I fully believe. Maybe not a thousand of course, but 3-4 and yes, problems will begin. But even if so, if the requirements are like hunting for the trunk - then it is possible and more, if the point is high - then yes, STP will grow and the trunk for sale.
      1. Michael HORNET
        Michael HORNET 3 January 2020 13: 09
        0
        The barrel resource from Orsis in 6,5 Grendel FMJ from Barnaul amounted to 24-30 thousand shots, an average of 25 thousand shots
  23. xax
    xax 13 December 2019 20: 58
    +2
    Price at Quality - Decides
  24. Deck
    Deck 14 December 2019 07: 57
    +1
    but the level of these is certainly not "for the Murzilka magazine", but even the Kalashnikov magazine does not pull.


    Is there any tangible difference between them? laughing
  25. paul3390
    paul3390 14 December 2019 18: 05
    +4
    You just need to make cartridges with your hands .. For example, I outweighed a pack of BPZ - I got a spread of extreme values ​​of 0.6 g .. This is out of 20 rounds! In such circumstances - what kind of accurate shooting can we talk about?
    1. Fibrizio
      Fibrizio 16 December 2019 11: 12
      +1
      If you have weighed them in full - this does not mean anything. On the Hansa, this question is fraught with holes in the profile branches. The liners have different weights.
      And if the shells are recharged several times already - then they were cut and sharpened dulce, then the weight walks there. Weigh correctly only the bullet and powder separately.
  26. About 2
    About 2 15 December 2019 00: 47
    0
    The author forgot to mention that at least Russian-made live ammunition bullets come with a steel shell and are only covered (clad) with a tompak. On the Discovery channel there was a transmission cycle about an arms company that was engaged in weapon tuning, so there they could see the boxes with our cartridges and it’s not uncommon on YouTube in the videos of American weapon lovers in our garages and houses that our cartridges are stored in drawers. Here the price-quality ratio speaks for itself.
  27. Zakonnik
    Zakonnik 15 December 2019 18: 18
    0
    My complaint is not quality stability. Even within the same party can fly in different ways.
  28. The comment was deleted.
  29. Siberia 9444
    Siberia 9444 18 January 2020 05: 46
    0
    Our hunting cartridges are mildly said Mr. Barnaul for their price, but among ours it’s not even bad, I use it myself
    A centaur an imported bullet for a black barrel the price in Novosibirsk is 24-25 rubles 7.62 * 39, an oil refinery does not make such a cartridge! If you have been to refineries and saw machines
  30. Yurkaza
    Yurkaza 8 February 2020 10: 30
    0
    How many hunters do we have with such bullets? In my opinion, such a game is forbidden to get, with the exception of deputies and officials. In our city there is not even a hunting store. And you read the arguments about weapons and about ammunition, the impression is that we have 30% hunters,
  31. itarnmag
    itarnmag 21 February 2020 19: 47
    0
    I would like to see in life a submachine gun that in real conditions will fire 15000 shots. Similarly, the barrel of a 100 mm gun of the T-55 was designed for 10000 (ten thousand rounds). God forbid to make the tank itself a few hundred shots
    1. agond
      agond 29 February 2020 19: 48
      0
      When chrome plating the barrel, its original geometry is violated, since chrome does not flaunt exactly the same thickness wherever it is needed, therefore it is not used in expensive hunting weapons, but stainless steel is used.
    2. Alexander nachenkin
      Alexander nachenkin 9 December 2020 02: 51
      0
      Critical perception is good. I agree with you regarding the resource of the weapon, it is much lower for good, accurate shooting.
      But, 10.000 shots per gun! ... Most likely, you have it a mistake. At least a thousand.
      By the way, the real resource of the Russian tank gun 120-125 mm depends on the shells used, and on average, the barrel works well for 150-300 rounds. Further there is a very large spread. The declared resource is up to 1000 rds. (real - up to 600)
      Automatic rifles are not used for shooting at long distances, and it is possible to hit a chest target at 25-50-100 meters "offhand" even with a shot of 15-20.000 shots.
      The Western military has a different approach, of course. Accuracy is never superfluous. The barrels serve on average up to 5-7 thousand and change "one or two", which is on the author. rifles that are on sniper weapons.
  32. Alexfly
    Alexfly 19 March 2020 19: 54
    0
    FMJ cartridges are not called hunting cartridges, actually ...
  33. Alexander nachenkin
    Alexander nachenkin 8 December 2020 11: 42
    0
    Quote: Doliva63
    Quote: Astra wild
    And for free it's even better. Personally, you agree to get a hundred cartridges for free Barnaul or 10 Serbian "Partizan"

    Interestingly, in the army whose patrons we had? And they got in a heap, and the trunks did not suffer. And if you take the RPKS, then with optics at 500 m. It was possible to get into the ear. Staff cartridge.


    You are a very cool shooter!
    Get in the ear from the PKK at 500 m. When fishing, you probably catch fish with meter-long eyes, and you hunt deer only from the SCS (or "Saiga" and "Tiger"), but from 1-1.5 km. With such shooting, it is not much closer to you to shoot at carcasses ... drinks
  34. Alexander nachenkin
    Alexander nachenkin 8 December 2020 11: 48
    0
    Quote: Per se.
    +


    By the way, our capsule is normal. Murom capsules were also sold in the USA.
    The gunpowder is stable within the boundaries of one batch, but dirty (therefore a lot of soot).
    But, in general, I am not a fan of domestic components.
  35. The comment was deleted.