Military Review

Rzhev battle. Verdun of the Soviet-German Front

161
Rzhev battle. Verdun of the Soviet-German Front

In 1989 — 1990's the feat of our people in the Great Patriotic War was dumped in the mud, tried to deprive of holiness and meaning. Like, "they fought badly," "they filled up with corpses," "they won against the command and the supreme commander." At this time, the "secret" Rzhev battle became one of the main symbols of the low professional level of the Soviet command, the mistakes of Stalin, the huge meaningless losses of the Red Army, etc.


Cinema about how Soviet soldiers were shot for leaflets


By the 75 anniversary of the Great Victory, Russian cinema again tried to give out the corresponding product. In early December 2019, the film "Rzhev" was released. Obviously, the filmmakers tried to combine the incompatible. On the one hand, the Great Patriotic War is again, as in the Union, sacred. In the absence of real victories, people are trying to distract the exploits of their ancestors. At the same time, they are silent that we were defeated in 1991 — 1993. in the cold (third world) war. That in relation to the Russian power and people, the plans that hatched the leaders of the Third Reich were implemented. Great Russia (USSR) was divided, Kiev - the ancient Russian capital, Small and White Russia, the Baltic states, Bessarabia-Moldova, Transcaucasia, Turkestan was taken from us. Russian culture and language, education and science, social infrastructure, and the economy suffered such losses, as if Hitler hordes had gone through Russia several times. The Russian people are rapidly dying out, losing their Russianness, their "I".

On the other hand, it is not customary to praise the socialist system and Stalin. The Soviet Union is still considered, for the most part, by the political elite, liberals and intelligentsia as the “cursed time” when there were repressions, the Gulag, lines and galoshes (V. V. Putin: “The USSR produced nothing but galoshes!”).

Hence the split. The Great Patriotic War can no longer be denigrated, as before. A whole cult of the Great War has been created. Large-scale parades are being held, young people are trying to educate on the examples of war heroes, and films and TV series “about the war” are flowing. True, mostly hack work, there is nothing like Soviet masterpieces. And on the other hand, the Mausoleum during the Victory Parade is bashfully covered with plywood, the country is dominated by a capitalist pro-Western system, hostile to the socialist, popular, in which the people defeated Hitler's "European Union". The Victory Banner is not compatible with “responsible business”, large capital that is engaged in bargaining, deprives the power and people of the future.

Hence films like “Rzhev”. There is a traditional anti-Soviet mythology: “they won against the command,” “they filled up with corpses,” “we fight unprofessionally,” “it used to be better” (in old, tsarist Russia, they say, they fought “wisely”). Specialist officers, political officers are engaged in the struggle with their own soldiers. The soldier who took the German leaflet is ordered to be shot, etc. Although in reality the special forces, counterintelligence made a great contribution to the overall victory, they solved the most important tasks, revealed enemy agents, saboteurs and traitors. Shooting for a leaflet is frank nonsense. But nevertheless, there are positive aspects: our soldiers stand to the death for their homeland; it is shown for what the Soviet people died and made such sacrifices in order to win (the villagers found in the basement of the church killed by the Nazis); there are battle scenes and emotions, etc.


Padded Soviet T-34 tank and English Tanks Valentine, under the guise of one of which is equipped with the position of German soldiers. Rzhev District, 1942

Soviet "Verdun"


The Battle of Rzhev (January 1942 - March 1943), contrary to liberal, anti-Soviet mythology, was not "classified". In reality, the battles in the Rzhev region were not secret, they simply did not attract attention, as in the battle for Moscow, the defense of Leningrad or Stalingrad. In Soviet historiography, the Battle of Rzhev was not considered as one battle, lasting more than a year, but as several different operations. In addition, despite the duration, perseverance and heavy losses, the battles for Rzhev were never of key importance on the Russian front.

The fact was that neither side was able to achieve decisive success here, which could change the situation on the whole front. World War II as a whole was a war of engines, maneuverable, based on tank strikes and quick breakthroughs. And the battle for Rzhev was much like the positional battles of the First World War. No wonder the Germans themselves compared this battle with Verdun in 1916.

One of the participants in the summer battle near Rzhev, the commander of the Hoke battalion from the German 6 infantry division, later recalled these battles:

“This was no longer a war of machine guns and machine guns, hand grenades and pistols, as in winter. It was a Materialschlacht, a battle of the technology of the First World War, a battle in which the attacker tried to destroy the enemy with steel, a shower of steel flying in the air and rushing on tracks, when a person intervened only at the last moment to destroy, in this lunar landscape, that still survived in the meat grinder. "



German skiers under the guise of the tank Pz. Kpfw. II Ausf. F from the 7-th tank division of the Wehrmacht in the region of Rzhev. February 1942


German soldiers jump from the tank Pz. Kpfw. 38 (t) on a forest road in the Rzhev region. Summer 1942

“Gateway to Moscow”


In this case, the Battle of Rzhev, of course, was of strategic importance. German troops captured Rzhev in October 1941. But then it was an ordinary event, another city fell. The fate of Moscow, possibly the whole war, was being decided.

Rzhev gained importance after the successful counterattack of the Red Army in December 1941. The Soviet Headquarters, overestimating its successes and underestimating the enemy, planned in the winter of 1942 of the year to carry out a broad strategic offensive with the aim of defeating the German Army Group Center. Part of this attack was the Rzhev-Vyazemsky operation (January 8 - April 20 1942 years). The Supreme Command High Command (VGK), in its directive of 7 on January 1942, ordered the cover of the armies of the right wing of the Kalinin Front under the command of I. S. Konev from the area northwest of Rzhev to Sychevka, Vyazma and the left wing of the Western Front under the command of G. K Zhukov from the Kaluga region in the direction of Yukhnov, Vyazi with the simultaneous advance of the remaining armies of the Western Front on Sychevka and Gzhatsk to encircle, dismember and destroy the main forces of Army Group Center in the region of Rzhev, Vyazma, Yukhnov, Gzhatsk.

This was the most successful stage of the battle for Rzhev. Soviet troops were able to push the enemy westward on 80 — 250 km, completed the liberation of the Moscow and Tula regions, recaptured many areas of the Kalinin and Smolensk regions. The result of the operation was the formation of the Rzhev-Vyazma ledge. At the same time, both sides suffered heavy losses during stubborn battles. The German Army Group Center lost about half of its personnel.

Our troops also suffered heavy losses. So the strike forces of the Western Front (33th Army, 1th Guards Cavalry Corps and 4th Airborne Corps) were blocked by the enemy, fought in the encirclement. Acting behind enemy lines, units of the 33 Army in cooperation with cavalry, paratroopers and partisans until the summer of 1942, fought in encirclement, held a large area and diverted significant enemy forces. In the course of heavy fighting, the wounded commander Mikhail Grigoryevich Efremov was killed (he shot himself to avoid being captured). Many parts of the army were able to break through to their own. The troops of the Kalinin Front (the 39 Army and the 11 Army Corps) were partially blocked by the Germans in the Kholm-Zhirkovsky area. In July 1942, the 9 German Army carried out Operation Seidlitz. The 39-I Soviet Army and the 11-I Cavalry Corps were in the "cauldron", were cut into pieces and destroyed. Part of the Soviet troops broke through to their own.

Thus, during the battles - winter - spring of the 1942 of the year, the Rzhev-Vyazemsky ledge was formed: a bridgehead up to 160 km in depth and up to 200 km on the front. Two large railways ran along the territory of the Rzhev-Vyazemsky ledge: Velikiye Luki - Rzhev and Orsha - Smolensk - Vyazma. The Rzhev direction was one of the key for the Germans. It was located between besieged Leningrad and Moscow. Here the Germans planned to break further east, cut off Leningrad and the north from Moscow, and again attack the Russian capital. Therefore, the Germans called the Rzhev-Vyazemsky ledge the "gateway to Moscow." And they held onto the bridgehead with all their might. Here, up to 2 / 3, the forces of Army Group Center were concentrated.

All this was well understood in Moscow. Therefore, the Soviet command with such obstinacy tried to "cut off" this ledge. For this, three more offensive operations were carried out: The first Rzhev-Sychev offensive operation (July 31 - October 20 October 1942 years); The second Rzhev-Sychev offensive operation or operation “Mars” (November 25 - December 20 1942 of the year); Rzhev-Vyazemsky offensive operation of troops (March 2 - March 31 1943 years). As a result, the victory remained with us. 3 March 1943 year, our soldiers liberated Rzhev.

Fighting here fiercely, we drew the attention of the enemy forces both from Leningrad and the Volga, where preparations for the general battle had already begun. The more the Germans clung to Rzhev, the illusion of going to Moscow again from here, the more difficult it was for them to conduct offensive operations in other sectors and directions of the front, near Stalingrad and the Caucasus. Therefore, all discussions about the "waste of time and energy", "meat grinder", "wasting ruined Soviet soldiers", is either the stupidity of people who do not understand anything in military affairs, or outright lies and misinformation in order to denigrate the Great War, the Red Army.


German soldiers from the 2 Airfield Luftwaffe Division in combat protection in the Rzhev region. One of the soldiers is loading the MG.30 (t) machine gun - the Czechoslovak trophy machine gun CZ-30. 1942 year


German artillery positions southwest of Rzhev. In the center is a direct-mounted 88-mm anti-aircraft gun (8,8 cm FlaK 36 / 37). Winter 1942


German machine gunners who took a position on the embankment during the battle in the Rzhev region. May 1942

The victory of the Germans?


What are the reasons for such a protracted and bloody battle? First, the German high command ordered them to die, cherishing hope until the last return to the operation to capture Moscow. Rzhevsky bridgehead allowed to resume the battle for Moscow. Therefore, 2 / 3 of all the forces of the German Army Group Center were concentrated here. Selected German units were located here, for example, the elite division "Great Germany". German troops were not diluted with the European "international" (Romanians, Italians, Hungarians, etc.). The German general as a whole was better prepared than the Soviet one (quality of governance). The Germans had powerful mobile formations here, plus reserves of the Army Group Center (tank divisions) were located in the area of ​​the ledge. An important factor was the preponderance of the Germans in artillery, especially heavy. In the summer of 1942, the military industry of the USSR did not yet fully recover from the disasters of 1941 and the evacuation. In terms of ammunition, production was still far behind Germany. Two or three flew in response to one heavy shell fired towards the German positions by Soviet artillery. The superiority in fire artillery power allowed the Germans to successfully restrain the onslaught of the Red Army. The Germans created a powerful defense, skillfully used reserves, inflicted strong counterattacks.

The Soviet command for a long time could not create a decisive superiority in forces and means in order to crush the enemy. This allowed the Germans to successfully repel the Soviet offensive. The Red Army suffered greater losses than the enemy. In general, this is a common situation when there is no decisive superiority in forces and means, and the enemy relies on strong defense. So you can recall the defense of Port Arthur, when the Japanese lost a lot more people than the defending Russians; or the first stage of the Winter War, when the Red Army washed itself with blood on the Mannerheim Line. On the whole, the losses in the Battle of Rzhev did not differ too much from the losses of the Soviet troops in the initial period of the Great Patriotic War. The science of fighting was bloody. To break the “invincible” Wehrmacht and become the best army of the planet of the Red Army had to pay a high price.

The Battle of Rzhev created the myth of the defeat of the Red Army. Like, the Germans were “filled up with corpses”, and the 9-I German army under the command of Model was not defeated and in winter 1943 successfully left the Rzhev-Vyazemsky ledge (operation “Buffalo”). This is a clear distortion of the facts. The model is definitely a military talent. However, why did the Germans leave the "Moscow bridgehead"? They were defeated at Stalingrad, the shock 6 army died. The German headquarters had to urgently reduce the front line (from 530 to 200 km), to free parts of the 9 Army and reserves tied up in the central direction and arriving from Europe in order to eliminate the consequences of the Stalingrad catastrophe. The Wehrmacht had no choice but the abandonment of the Rzhevsky bridgehead. On the other hand, the success in Stalingrad was also associated with the battles in the Rzhev region. Powerful connections of the Wehrmacht were connected in the Moscow direction and did not participate in battles in the south.

Thus, the victory was for the Red Army. The enemy’s plans to resume the onslaught against Moscow were frustrated. The losses were high, but to call them meaningless is stupidity or a vile deception. Despite the presence of a “gate to Moscow,” the German command was never able to carry out a new attack on the Soviet capital. So the Germans, with the inactivity of the Red Army in the Moscow direction, could very well in the summer and fall of the 1942 of the year make an attack on Moscow, which could cause dire consequences for us. However, this was simply impossible due to the constant pressure on the enemy of the Red Army. All replenishment and reserves of Army Group Center were burned in the Soviet Verdun. This bloody battle near Rzhev led to the fact that the fate of the war was decided on other sectors of the front. The battle of Stalingrad, which became the first part of a strategic turning point in the war, would not have been possible without the battle for Rzhev. Also, the experience of fighting in the Rzhev region allowed the Soviet command to gain experience in breaking the enemy’s strong defense, tactics and methods of using and interacting artillery, tanks and infantry, tactics of using assault groups were formed.


Red Army under the cover of tanks "Valentine" Mk. II (Valentine Mk. II) go on the attack on the Kalinin front. Rzhev-Sychevsky direction. 1942


Soviet T-60 and KV-1 “Voroshilov” tanks from the 2-th battalion of the 3-th separate guards tank brigade are fighting in the area of ​​Rzhev. May - June 1942


The crew rolls out the 76-mm divisional cannon of the 1939 model of the year (SPM) to the fighting position during the battles of the 178-th rifle division near Rzhev. 1942


The soldiers in a street battle in Rzhev. March 1943 g. Photo source: http://waralbum.ru/


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  1. Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 10 December 2019 06: 13
    +11
    As I do not want to watch the film "Rzhev", the video was enough, but apparently I have to, well at least there is the possibility of rewinding, because I am not going to go to CT.
    1. w70
      w70 10 December 2019 07: 26
      -46
      Vladimir, it’s better to read Solzhenitsyn’s Gulag Archipelago, it’ll be more sense
      1. Same lech
        Same lech 10 December 2019 08: 04
        -9
        Better watch the movie "Soldiers" filmed based on the work of Nekrasov in "Trenches of Stalingrad".
        There was a moment when a drunk commander drove people to attack at night without giving them any preparation without giving any cover ... a heavy film.
        1. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 10 December 2019 08: 35
          -3
          Thank you, I've only read about the book, haven't even heard of the film. I'll look after "Rzhev", wash off the taste, so to speak.
        2. Boris55
          Boris55 10 December 2019 09: 57
          +25
          Quote: The same LYOKHA
          Better watch the movie "Soldiers"

          A good film about the war: "They fought for their homeland."
          1. Proxima
            Proxima 10 December 2019 12: 45
            +18
            Quote: Boris55
            Quote: The same LYOKHA
            Better watch the movie "Soldiers"

            A good film about the war: "They fought for their homeland."

            The best film where the war is on a tangent (in my humble understanding) - "Ballad of a Soldier" - a masterpiece! I would recommend not spending money on a movie theater (Rzhev) and popcorn, but as a whole family to see this wonderful picture!
          2. Proxima
            Proxima 10 December 2019 12: 56
            +15
            Quote: Boris55
            A good film about the war: "They fought for their homeland."

            I would supplement your list with two more films - “Hot Snow” and “Only Old Men Go into Battle”. Great movies! hi
            1. Alex1317
              Alex1317 April 27 2022 12: 25
              0
              And also "Battalions ask for fire"
        3. Alekseev
          Alekseev 10 December 2019 18: 05
          +7
          Quote: The same LYOKHA
          There was a moment when a drunk commander drove people to attack at night

          On the Great from the Barents to the Black War what just was not... And about such an attack back in the 60s, K. Simonov wrote in detail in "The Living and the Dead".
          But not drunken commanders defeated the Wehrmacht with such attacks and, as Stalin said, "brought Germany to its knees."
          The reasons for the large losses are also well known.
          Without going into details, it is that our armed forces, as commanders, middle and lower level commanders, soldiers were worse trained than the Germans.
          According to G.K. Zhukov, the Germans had an "advantage in all respects" in the first and, often, the second periods of the war.
          Why did this happen? There are many reasons ... This is a big separate topic ... I would like to mention only one little-known moment for those who study military history from films.
          We began to form a large cadre army mainly only in 1939, before that the so-called militia system prevailed, when the formations were staffed with poorly trained "partisans", and the German army, already fully mobilized, was already crushing Poland and preparing to smash France.
          This, and not only that, was understood by I.V. Stalin. Therefore, he tried to delay the start of the war as much as possible, so much so that he fell into self-confident illusions about this.
      2. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 10 December 2019 08: 05
        +12
        Have you mastered this boring, stupid, deceitful reading matter yourself? I could not, although "Cancer Ward" and "One Day .." have completely gone, I also read a collection of some "soil" stories, but I'm not sure if Solzhevsky. Shalamov wrote about GoodLack many times more interesting, at least you can read it.
        1. bober1982
          bober1982 10 December 2019 08: 43
          +2
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          Shalamov was many times more interesting about GoodLuck, he could even be read.

          Shalamov was an embittered, envious and vengeful man, and he had the same malicious attitude towards people, by the way, he hated Solzhenitsyn fiercely, apparently out of envy. Shalamov's stories leave a painful impression.
          1. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 10 December 2019 08: 47
            +18
            Oi-ya, if Shalamov
            Quote: bober1982
            was an embittered, envious and vengeful man

            Then who is Solzh? At least Shalamov did not call atomic bombs on the heads of Soviet people!
            1. bober1982
              bober1982 10 December 2019 08: 59
              +2
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              At least Shalamov did not call atomic bombs on the heads of Soviet people!

              It was not his level.
          2. Alexander Suvorov
            Alexander Suvorov 10 December 2019 08: 53
            +28
            bober1982 (vladimir)
            By the way, he hated fiercely Solzhenitsyn
            Well yes, but does SALZHEnitsin deserve love and respect?
            Solzhenitsin is a camp rat, informer and opportunist, and he did not even hesitate to talk about it.
            1. bober1982
              bober1982 10 December 2019 09: 05
              -14
              We, dear Alexander Suvorov, are distracted from the topic, we have gone downhill.
              In short ..... I want you, citizen Koreiko, to love me .......
            2. w70
              w70 10 December 2019 20: 35
              -5
              And who would he be in the Stalin camp - a goner?
        2. w70
          w70 10 December 2019 20: 30
          +3
          Of course I read Shalamov, read more "Vanka Rotny" is a real veteran wrote
      3. zloybond
        zloybond 11 December 2019 11: 18
        +3
        I understand the author’s desire to actively speak. But the active lie in the first lines of Putin’s Galoshes is not just disinformation — it is also ignorance. To break out of context and turn over a phrase is an active desire to shit anywhere. Here's what Putin’s full speech looked like:
        "... Yes, my dears, yes. No need to debate. The fact is that what we produced (and no need to wave your hands), no one needed, because no one bought our galoshes, except as Africans, who had to walk on hot sand. ”That’s the whole point.
        We had a defense industry - cool, strong, and we are still proud of it. We are grateful to our grandfathers and our fathers for creating such a defense after the Great Patriotic War.
        From the audience: ... And the first satellite.
        Vladimir Putin: Both the first satellite and the first man in space are our common pride, these are the achievements of the Soviet government, of which we are all proud. These are nationwide achievements.
        But consumer goods ... Zhirinovsky has already said this. Where were they? There were none. Let's not lie to each other and to the people. The people know what was and what was not ... "
        ... What the author wanted to say by inserting his galoshes into the mouth of the President, I think, and so it is clear. This is despite the fact that you can simply view the real full audio recording and understand what is at stake. But there is always hope that people will simply swallow and will not get to the bottom of the matter. Further on, the author also has something to be proud of; there is also something to revise in a companion.
        The editors are more serious about the attempts of such authors to put a lie in the article.
    2. Civil
      Civil 10 December 2019 07: 35
      +9
      For the author of the article, you will define "Russian troops" or "Soviet troops", Soviet troops were internationalists and fought for Soviet power.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 10 December 2019 09: 49
        -12
        Quote: Civil
        For the author of the article, you will define "Russian troops" or "Soviet troops", Soviet troops were internationalists and fought for Soviet power.

        "FOR THE HOMELAND!"-This was the slogan of that war, and they went into battle with it, it was written on banners and on tanks.

        From the book of the Russian soldier Kondratiev, a participant in the battle of Rzhev, on which the film was made: "I am fighting for MOTHER RUSSIA!"- So said the WWI veteran near Rzhev, who fought for her even in the Second World War. For thousands of years, Russian people fought for it. in all wars, regardless of power.

        And when it was necessary to stand up for the Soviet regime in 91, it didn’t stand up none. This is just a historical fact.
        1. Operator
          Operator 10 December 2019 11: 04
          +19
          Private Kondratyev took part in the only clash in the capture of a small village near Rzhev, while he was unable to enter the village itself - he was evacuated earlier. Nevertheless, in 1991 he published his fictional story, which colorfully describes the capture of the village and its subsequent defense, completely based on the inferiority complex and Soviet phobia of Kondratyev (by profession of a graphic designer), who fervently believed in perestroyka, glasnost and "The West will help us" ...

          In 1993, Kondratiev committed suicide from a hunting rifle due to the collapse of his illusions.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 10 December 2019 11: 46
            -2
            Quote: Operator
            Private Kondratyev took part in the only clash in the capture of a small village near Rzhev

            You do not know this either:
            Sgt. Kondratyev by order of the Armed Forces of the 30th Army of the Kalinin Front No.: 12 / n dated: 26.04.1942/XNUMX/XNUMX was awarded the medal "For Courage" for the fact that on April 7, 1942, in the battle for the village of Ovsyannikovo after the death of the platoon commander under heavy fire of the enemy, he raised the soldiers to attack. According to the award sheet, in this battle Kondratyev personally destroyed 12 German soldiers from small arms, and with a throw of a grenade he disabled the enemy’s easel machine gun

            So EVERYONE does it.

            Kondratiev was TWO seriously injured in WWII

            Kondratyev. -
            We fought for our home, for our street, for our Moscow, for our village, for our loved ones. We fought for Russia. And won the war, of course, Russian patriotism.
            Quote: Operator
            In 1993, Kondratiev committed suicide from a hunting rifle by crash cause their illusions.

            In 1993, the veteran was ill for a long time and very seriously. So do not write nonsense. negative
            1. Operator
              Operator 10 December 2019 12: 31
              +11
              That's just in the battle for the liberation of the village of Ovsyannikovo (and not in the battle for its defense) Kondratiev was seriously injured. It is unlikely that Kondratyev, after 6 months of hospitals, found in his rifle company at least one eyewitness to the village’s defense, which he so colorfully described in his perestroika opus.

              Kondratyev was ill in the very first period after the collapse of the USSR — does this not tell you anything?

              Z.Y. One of my grandfathers was in the first wave of landing in Kerch in October 1943 and reached Koenigsberg, the second grandfather was the only electrical engineer at the tank repair plant in Murom all his war, his brother refused armor at the Moscow defense plant and died near Myasniy Bor.
              Not for you to teach me.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 10 December 2019 13: 26
                -8
                Quote: Operator
                That's just in the battle for the liberation of the village of Ovsyannikovo (and not in the battle for its defense) Kondratiev was seriously injured. It is unlikely that Kondratiev after 6 months of hospitals found in his rifle company at least one eyewitness to the village’s defense, which he so colorfully described in his perestroika opus.

                belay
                1.After that wound, he ended up in general others railway troops, where he was again seriously wounded.
                2. Wounded from hospitals almost never got into their rifle companies, but were sent to spare parts - this was the practice
                Quote: Operator

                Kondratyev was ill in the very first period after the collapse of the USSR — does this not tell you anything?

                No, but should? Why?
                .
                Quote: Operator
                Z.Y. One of my grandfathers was in the first wave of landing in Kerch in October 1943 and reached Koenigsberg, the second grandfather was the only electrical engineer at the tank repair plant in Murom all his war, his brother refused armor at the Moscow defense plant and died near Myasniy Bor.
                Do not you teach me.

                Your grandfathers, sincere respect.

                And you should, I think, with the same respect attributed to the same grandfather - Hero Kondratyev and don't spread gossip about him.

                A man TWICE was seriously injured, seriously ill at the end of his life - that’s all that needs to be taken into account in the context of knowledge about his last day.
                1. Operator
                  Operator 10 December 2019 13: 31
                  +7
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  he ended up in other railway troops

                  Therefore, he came up with spheroconical circumstances of the defense of the village of Ovsyannikovo, in which he did not take part from the word at all.

                  And with a 99% probability, the Kondratyev railwayman was no longer involved in any infantry operations.
              2. Avior
                Avior 11 December 2019 00: 33
                +3
                Well, you are healthy and compose
                Believable
                Only believable, not true
                Kondratiev fought since 1941, he was called up in 1939, in the spring of 1942 he was already a sergeant, assistant platoon commander
                There was a time to see what and how at the front.
                And he was wounded at all in the battle for which he was awarded; at the time of the award, he still did not have a wound, this is in his award sheet
        2. Civil
          Civil 10 December 2019 11: 51
          +6
          From the book of the Russian soldier Kondratyev, a participant in the battle of Rzhev, based on which the film was created: "I am fighting for RUSSIA-MOTHER!" - so said the WWII veteran near Rzhev, who fought for her in WWII. For her, the Russian people fought for thousands of years in all wars, regardless of the government.

          That is, all the rest - Tatars, Buryats, Kazakhs, Ukrainians - nothing to do with. The friendship of peoples is growing stronger in VO.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 10 December 2019 12: 01
            -11
            Quote: Civil
            That is, all the rest - Tatars, Buryats, Kazakhs, Ukrainians - nothing to do with.

            Those. Kazan, Ulan-Ude, Odessa, Uralsk, etc., is not Russia for you anymore? request request
            1. Vladimir_2U
              Vladimir_2U 10 December 2019 13: 30
              +9
              Thanks to people like Olgovich, Odessa is no longer Russia.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 10 December 2019 13: 44
                -15
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Thanks to people like Olgovich, Odessa is no longer Russia.

                Father's mother was born and studied at RUSSIAN Odessa.

                When Odessa was raped by the Bolsheviks in the so-called. "Ussr", Odessans at first took it as ... anecdote.

                But then it became not at all funny: stupid, violent "Ukrainization" of all Russian, punishment for the Russian language, the appearance of some unknown streets and monuments to stupid ugly ugly people: the drunkard Shevchenko, the blue Franco, fool l Ukrainian women who had nothing to do with Odessa, etc.

                admire what YOU honeycombstole from Russian New Russia angry
                1. Vladimir_2U
                  Vladimir_2U 10 December 2019 14: 05
                  +13
                  The Soviet Union was killed including thanks to such as Olgovich. Were the USSR Banderstad alive and would not exist. And if there were no USSR, tsarist or whatever Russia there turned out to be, it would simply have been smeared technically and numerically superior to the West. The anti-Sovietism of the West grew out of Russophobia, and Russophobia turned around again. So the anti-Soviet is always Russophobe, no matter what he’s dressed in,
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 10 December 2019 14: 22
                    -14
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    The Soviet Union was killed including thanks to such as Olgovich. Were the USSR Banderstad alive and would not exist.

                    -You turned RUSSIAN lands into ANTI-Russia: Russian Nikolaev in ... Mykolaiv fool Russian Faithful in Almaty, etc.

                    -You have created from the body of Russia "states of" Ukraine ", Kazakhstan"

                    "YOU invented for them" history "," literature "," statehood "

                    YOU have brought up powders, rags, etc. nationalistic abomination.

                    YOU have created today's borders of Russia.

                    These are just FACTS.
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    . And if there were no USSR, tsarist or whatever Russia turned out there, it would simply have been spread technically and numerically superior to the West.

                    But this is nonsense.

                    Russia FOR A THOUSAND YEARS, IT WAS GREATLY LIVING and ROSLA (people, territory) - BEFORE your coming - see. The story.

                    YOU have managed from all this wealth accumulated over the CENTURY, in just a few decades, to leave HORNS and LEGS: endangered people and borders of the 17th century.
                    It is a fact.

                    These are YOUR "achievements", "Russophiles"
                    1. Vladimir_2U
                      Vladimir_2U 10 December 2019 14: 31
                      +9
                      It’s just words, not words, it’s a nuclear missile shield, only thanks to which today's Russia is alive, it’s a powerful economy and science, once the second in the world, the remains of which still allow Russia to flutter, education, medicine, and damn thermal power plants that now give light and warm, they are still mostly Soviet. Anti-Soviet leaders came to power, has Russia become better?
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 10 December 2019 14: 46
                        -10
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        These are just words

                        No dear, this is KILLING FACTS for you
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        then the nuclear missile shield, thanks to which Russia today is alive, is a powerful economy and science, once the second in the world, the remains of which still allow Russia to flutter, education, medicine, and damn thermal power plants that now give light and heat, they are in large numbers still Soviet. Anti-Soviet leaders came to power, has Russia become better?

                        Soviet ?!
                        Have you landed on a desert planet? fool lol

                        BEFORE you was created by the hard work of the people the largest country in the world

                        BEFORE you existed Russian science, the foremost in the world (almost ditched by you by 1922)

                        BEST universities in the world have been created before you: IMTU, IsbPPI, Moscow State University and others, where ALL Russian scientists who created nuclear weapons, TU and Salutes were trained

                        Before you there were 130 thousand schools and hundreds of thousands of teachers

                        I recall that from Switzerland you nothing (except for a tattered bowler hat) and no one (except dumbasses) did not bring.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Yes damn thermal power plants that now give light and heat, they are for the most part still Soviet

                        And how the WHOLE world without the Bolsheviks built its CHP, nuclear weapons, etc.? Stole, go, they have lol laughing
                      2. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 10 December 2019 15: 18
                        +10
                        Great damage to the public education system and the spread of literacy was done by the First World War and the Civil War. But the Bolsheviks are to blame for this, of course.
                        Due to the constant shortage of funds, by the 1922/23 academic year the number of schools decreased to 88, and the number of students dropped to 588
                        By the 1927/28 school year, the number of students increased: [20]:
                        In secondary and elementary schools of all kinds - 11 589 thousand students.
                        In secondary specialized educational institutions in the same year, 189 thousand students studied.
                        In higher educational institutions - 169 thousand students. And this, contrary to the Bolsheviks, of course!
                        A school census conducted on January 18, 1911 revealed the school situation in Russia. “On the census day, 6180510 students attended schools, which is 3,85% compared to the total population. And since the number of school-age children (from 8 to 12 years) is determined by about 9% of the total population, it turns out that only about 43% of all children attended primary school in 1911 (p. 187). ”[14]
                        By January 1, 1912, ALL educational institutions in the Russian Empire (with 8 Finland provinces) numbered 125, in which 723 students were enrolled.
                        A comparison of 11 and 947 speaks against the Bolsheviks by itself!
                        Well, of course, elementary school in the pre-war. For the most part, it is a parish church with a corresponding education.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        And how the WHOLE world without the Bolsheviks built its CHP, nuclear weapons, etc.? Stole, go, they have

                        The whole world? Count on five fingers how many countries can a nuclear power plant have?
                        In 1920, Igor Kurchatov graduated with a gold medal from the Simferopol State Gymnasium. In the same year he entered the Tauride (now Crimean) University at the Mathematics Department of the Faculty of Physics and Mathematics. In 1923, he completed the four-year course in three years and brilliantly defended his thesis.
                        September 1, 1923, Kurchatov, deciding to continue his education, entered the Petrograd Polytechnic Institute (now St. Petersburg State Polytechnic University) for the third year of the shipbuilding faculty. At the same time, he began working at the Main Geophysical Observatory in Slutsk (now Pavlovsk),
                        In October 1924 he moved to Baku and until June 1925 he worked as an assistant at the Department of Physics of the Azerbaijan Polytechnic Institute /
                        Of course, this all happened on the ruins of education and science destroyed by the Bolsheviks.

                        October 1917 - The Congress on Technical Defense of the State decided to organize a radium plant.
                        1918 - the first radio laboratory was created in Tver.
                        1918 - The Institute for the Study of the Brain and Mental Activities was established.
                        1918 - the Department of Industrial and Geographical Studies of Russia (Institute of Geography RAS) was created.
                        1918 - The Institute of Applied Mineralogy (SIMS) was established.
                        1918 - The Mining Academy (MISiS) was established
                        1918 - The Institute for the Study of Platinum (IONH) was established
                        1918 - The Institute of Extracurricular Education was established.
                        1918 - by decision of the Supreme Economic Council, the State Paper Testing Station (TsIINB) was created
                        1918 - the Scientific Automobile Laboratory of the Supreme Economic Council (NAM) was established
                        1918 - the Central Genetic Laboratory (VASKHNIL) was established.
                        1918 - the Central Chemical Laboratory of the Supreme Economic Council was established.
                        1918 - The Scientific Institute for Fertilizers was established.
                        1918 - Turkestan Regional Bacteriological Institute was established.
                        In 1918 !!!
                        The problem of Olgych is that not only he knows how to use search engines, but he is not able to understand this, I sympathize.
                      3. victor50
                        victor50 10 December 2019 21: 21
                        +3
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        The problem of Olga is that not only he knows how to use search engines

                        It seems to me that he is just looking for facts to fit his theory. Ignoring the inappropriate ones. And gives a distorted (beneficial to him) interpretation of the real. The victory of the Bolsheviks was largely due to the failures and defeats in WWI. For some reason, the soldiers en masse deserted from the front, and did not stand to death as after 20 years. And the February revolution was not started and carried out by the Bolsheviks. But we blame everything on them. Fortunately, the official version of the current authorities is similar. And about the development of the USSR and the rest of the world (there was also everything that was in the USSR). At Hemenguei, it seems, the retreating Italians go to the "Farewell to Arms" all over the place (well, or in large quantities) in cars. And this was observed in the Russian Empire? What prevented this "great and happy" country from achieving the same level of development?
                      4. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 11 December 2019 03: 21
                        +3
                        Yes, all anti-Soviet Russophobes do this. The most important thing is that they don't like it "Find out by their deeds ...", because deeds speak for the Soviets.
                      5. Fat
                        Fat 11 December 2019 06: 03
                        -1
                        Quote: victor50
                        was this observed in the Russian Empire? What prevented this "great and happy" country from achieving the same level of development?

                        Normally, everything was in the Republic of Ingushetia with cars; the first Yakovlev milling cutter was introduced in 1896. It was a production car RI completely, to the last detail, Russian. AMO Plant (ZIS, ZIL) was founded in 1916. RBVZ produced cars in quite normal series. Build cars Bubbles, Dux and others. Official brothers and nobles preferred foreign cars ... The normal development of the automotive industry was greatly hindered by revolution and civil war. AMO F 15 was launched into the series only in 1924. F-15 is FIAT 15, which the AMO plant collected in 1917-1919, screwdrivers. The RI army did not have enough cars because the RI army was, to put it mildly, somewhat larger than the army of the Italian king. What got in the way?
                        Yes, the scale of the country interfered. On a scale, only Stalin conquered, turning a semi-agrarian country into a powerful industrial power.
                      6. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 11 December 2019 10: 09
                        -5
                        Quote: victor50
                        What prevented this "great and happy" country from achieving the same level of development?

                        Your level-coupons for pants and socks by the end of 90, a wild deficit for everything, a hopelessly outdated and backward economy, the Russian Cross and the borders of the 17th century ..

                        These are the FACTS.
                      7. victor50
                        victor50 11 December 2019 10: 23
                        +1
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Your level-coupons for pants and socks by the end of 90, a wild deficit for everything, a hopelessly outdated and backward economy, the Russian Cross and the borders of the 17th century ..

                        Apparently, the revolution in 17 came from abundance! lol Your rudeness from there - from the great and happy RI ?! What was mentioned earlier is space, an excellent education, free of charge, by the way, a country that produces everything, including its own aircraft industry, shipbuilding, which won the war, created weapons (one of 6 in the whole world) that allows it to exist Until now, and much more - it’s better not to remember this! wink And “the hopelessly outdated and backward economy is still being eaten up! request Your FACTS is a tendentious selection and distortion of reality, and dreams do not seem to go further than a full trough.
                      8. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 11 December 2019 11: 30
                        -9
                        Quote: victor50
                        Apparently, the revolution in 17 came from abundance!

                        FROM THE WORLD WAR, remember.

                        But in 91-Nothing!
                        Quote: victor50
                        Your rudeness from there - from the great and happy RI ?!

                        You wrote about the level of RI, positioning yourself with the following mode.

                        This is the level of your regime and, accordingly, was meant.

                        FACTS quoted, deny? No? What claims then to your coupons for underpants?
                        Quote: victor50
                        What was mentioned earlier is space, an excellent education, free, by the way, a country that produces everything, including its own aircraft industry, shipbuilding, which won the war, created weapons (one of 6 in the whole world) that allows it to exist Until now, and much more - it’s better not to remember this!

                        WITHOUT scientists of Russia, WITHOUT the formation of Russia, WITHOUT the people of Russia, WITHOUT the workers of Russia, WITHOUT robbed by you to death toRestianism (and it was all BEFORE you) -You would not create ANYTHING.

                        But if the rest of the countries created all this without the stress of the people, then you simply ditched it in the process of "building". Tore it up.
                        Quote: victor50
                        And “the hopelessly outdated and backward economy is still being eaten up!

                        Why is she, "effective", to 91 grams of panties could not rivet and an elementary grub at least in the amount of already printed candy wrappers, eh?
                        Quote: victor50
                        Your FACTS is a tendentious selection and distortion of reality.

                        So DEVELOP them, how many times I ask all the talkers!

                        Quote: victor50
                        and dreams did not seem to go further than a full trough.

                        Ahh, another consumer of solar energy ... lol
                      9. victor50
                        victor50 11 December 2019 13: 35
                        +1
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        WITHOUT the peasantry robbed by you before the death (and this was all BEFORE you) -You would not create ANYTHING.

                        What did you do? Hunger swollen? Or crap? Ahh! Used fat reserves accumulated until 1917. laughing
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Your FACTS is a tendentious selection and distortion of reality.
                        So DEVELOP them, how many times I ask all the talkers!

                        The chatterbox and the demagogue are you. Bored with you - ignore inconvenient facts. For example, about RI literacy and the desire for universal education. Again the war prevented? But the USSR did not fight? Only after the war did the RI collapse, and the USSR became a world power, in which there was a universal secondary education that helps you study history (peculiarly). There is no desire to figure it out. And everyone is to blame all around in 1991. And, are you apparently responsible for 1917? lol I would like to ask: didn’t anything taken from your personal feeder then? Or a bit later?
                      10. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 11 December 2019 13: 47
                        -7
                        Quote: victor50
                        What did you do? Hunger swollen? Or crap? Ahh!

                        And they swelled and died, and in the same way as ANYWHERE and NEVER in the world: 13.5 million peasants who died of starvation in the country of "slaves and kgestians", massive cannibals. Forgotten already?
                        Quote: victor50
                        The chatterbox and the demagogue are you. Bored with you - ignore inconvenient facts. For example, about RI literacy and the desire for universal education. Again the war prevented?

                        Russia, before VOR 4 thousand a year was introduced.
                        USSR-NO ONE SCHOOL -azh until 1927
                        Chop on the nose-nodule.
                        Quote: victor50
                        Only after the war did RI collapse, and the USSR became a world power,

                        she spoiled after a thief-ALL independence declared -After the thief-onovaniya her decrees, ignorant
                        Quote: victor50
                        in which there was universal secondary education

                        And the fact that it would be in Russia WITHOUT you EARLIER-to understand poorly (see schools)?
                        Quote: victor50
                        And everyone around is to blame in 1991.

                        Who is this "all"? belay The one who LEADS is to blame. You do not understand this? request
                        Quote: victor50
                        And, are you apparently responsible for 1917?

                        See above
                        Quote: victor50
                        I would like to ask: didn’t anything taken from your personal feeder then? Or a bit later?

                        They took everything from everyone. Even just gobble up and dress, as in 1913, man managed already ... after 40 years! Report of the Central Statistical Bureau of the USSR 55 g for educational program.
                      11. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 11 December 2019 10: 05
                        -5
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        189 thousand students studied at the same special educational institutions in the same year.
                        In higher educational institutions - 169 thousand students. And this, contrary to the Bolsheviks, of course!
                        A school census conducted on January 18, 1911 revealed the provisions of the school

                        You steal other people's articles and write under your nickname. Not ashamed steal?
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U

                        October 1917 - The Congress on Technical Defense of the State decided to organize a radium plant.
                        1918 - the first radio laboratory was created in Tver.
                        1918 - The Institute for the Study of the Brain and Mental Activities was established.
                        1918 - Department of


                        The problem of "Russophiles" in the absence of a head: the fact that the already EXISTING scientific subdivisions of Russia (for example, Commission for the Study of Natural Productive Forces of Russia (KEPS, AN) divided and named differently - does not mean that NEW SCIENTISERS appeared and NEW premises and equipment appeared. Stolen from you at least read: There was NO money, NOTHING.

                        I repeat for the tankmen: they brought NOTHING, but KILLED a lot of ALREADY former academicians, scientists, engineers, etc.

                        Here is WHAT YOU were doing with Russian science and its scientists: letter from the President of the USSR Academy of Sciences, 1923: "...
                        it is necessary to save both scientific work and people for this work in constant debates, meetings, trips to Moscow, writings and defense of endless memos, having, on the one hand, rude and powerful people, on the other, nervous intellectuals. And this is from morning to evening, without a day of respite. And next to it searches (we had 6 of them), arrests, eternal trouble in the Cheka - the tears and suffering of those who remain, often futile, sometimes successful attempts to save people from executionwho have loved ones - experiences with withdrawn to shoot neighbors by cameram when I was in prison [September 1919 - MS] (I think that it’s easier to die myself).

                        And so - the years go by. <...> And the backdrop for everything of this death, death without end, people near and far, leaving widows and orphans.


                        He is 1922 about perishing science:
                        we create an impossible existence for scientific work in Russia. Nothing to talk about tremendous number of dead scientists out of that handful that had tried to cope with the vast tasks that lay before it with tremendous tension.
                        it is impossible to remain silent for a long time, it’s not enough to say that measures to stop would already to ease the disaster must be taken immediately, it is impossible, as this is done, to constantly wait for months for the papers to go, moreover, often getting lost in the office.

                        In the huge budget of a state such as Russia, loans for all this are relatively insignificant, they only have to be given now - the crash has already arrived and maybe even after two or three months it cannot be stopped.

                        All digital data can be communicated immediately, but to give them, not knowing the basic fundamental decision of the authorities, to be or not to be science in Russia - It is useless, useless to engage in any calculations. We are waiting for an immediate response. in the name of the existence of that Russian science, which still knew how to arouse respect of the whole world for a Russian scientist.


                        Teach, ignoramus, WHAT happened then.
                      12. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 11 December 2019 10: 11
                        +3
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        You steal other people's articles and write under your nickname. Do not be ashamed to steal?
                        This is a clinic, and pronounced !!! Olgovich is quite a cookie.
                        Russophobe style, quote but don’t post a link, so that this quote could not be verified.
                      13. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 11 December 2019 11: 17
                        -5
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        This is a clinic, and pronounced !!! Olgovich is quite a cookie.

                        This:
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U

                        Due to the constant shortage of funds, by the 1922/23 academic year the number of schools decreased to 88, and the number of students dropped to 588
                        you STORED from here: .https: //ru.wikipedia.org ›wiki›.
                        Do not be ashamed, I ask again, stealing someone else's?

                        Shame ..... lol
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Russophobe style, quote but don’t post a link, so that this quote could not be verified.

                        "Russophile", the author of quotations is SPECIFIED.
                        If you are not here, Copenhagen lol , then this is OLDENBURG S F, head of the USSR Academy of Sciences.
                      14. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 11 December 2019 11: 24
                        +2
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        you STORED from here: .https: //ru.wikipedia.org ›wiki›.
                        Do not be ashamed, I ask again, stealing someone else's?

                        What is this if not a clinic? A quote in a comment equates to plagiarism. Comment is equivalent to an article. Let Olgovich write an article, you look at the collected works on an equal footing.

                        .
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Russophobe style, quote but don’t post a link, so that this quote could not be verified.

                        "Russophile", author of quotes SPECIFIED

                        Is Olga a link indicated? Oh, No. How so, for which they fought? Bullshit is stupid, this is your Olgovich.
                      15. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 11 December 2019 12: 47
                        -5
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        What is this if not a clinic? A quote in a comment equates to plagiarism. Comment is equivalent to an article. Let Olgovich write an article, you look at the collected works on an equal footing.

                        STOLEN is determined by the fact that you do not specify the AUTHOR of the article. Instead ... YOUR nickname belay lol
                        Read, finally, the VO Rules - there it is clearly written ..
                        AGAIN - didn’t it? belay
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Is Olga a link indicated? Oh, No. How so, for which they fought? Brehlo Dumb, this is your Olgovich.

                        Yes, yes: but again, for the tankman: there is a link to the AUTHOR OF THE TEXT. Open it and READ.

                        shaw, are you in difficulty again? !lol
                        How hard are you ..... request
                      16. victor50
                        victor50 10 December 2019 21: 10
                        +6
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Before you there were 130 thousand schools and hundreds of thousands of teachers

                        It is unclear then why my grandfather, born in 1893, had 4 classes, and grandmother, born in 1901, had 1 grade. Who was not interested in their studies? The Bolsheviks, probably? lol
                      17. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 11 December 2019 10: 11
                        -6
                        Quote: victor50
                        It is unclear then why my grandfather, born in 1893, had 4 classes, and grandmother, born in 1901, had 1 grade. Who was not interested in their studies? The Bolsheviks, probably?

                        Naturally: with them, TEN YEARS, NONE of the schools were built.
                        FOUR THOUSANDs were introduced before them.

                        Can you count? How many children did not go to school?
                  2. Alexey RA
                    Alexey RA 10 December 2019 16: 46
                    -3
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    Were the USSR Banderstad alive and would not be

                    To remind you - who joined the Russian lands to the Ukrainian SSR? Who organized the forcible Ukrainization of Russians in these lands - with dismissals for not knowing the language, and without observing labor laws? Who returned from Austria the nationalist Grushevsky (by the way, the long-standing enemy of the Soviet government) and gave him the pulpit to blind the thousand-year history of Ukraine?
                    1. Vladimir_2U
                      Vladimir_2U 10 December 2019 17: 13
                      +3
                      Quote: Alexey RA
                      Let me remind you - who added the Russian lands to the Ukrainian SSR
                      As part of the USSR, this did not matter much while the USSR was alive.
                      Quote: Alexey RA
                      Who organized the forcible Ukrainization of Russians in these lands - with dismissals for not knowing the language, and without observing labor laws
                      This is an unfortunate fact, however: Ukrainization in the USSR was curtailed in two stages. On the basis of the joint directive of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks and the Council of People's Commissars of December 15, 1932, at the end of 1932-1933, Ukrainization was completely stopped on the territory of the RSFSR, and the already Ukrainized schools were converted to Russian. On the territory of the Ukrainian SSR, Ukrainianization began to be curtailed in the late 1930s Next: Already in the early 1930s, measures were taken to curb Ukrainization. In August 1932, JV Stalin declared serious trouble in the Ukrainian party organizations and the dominance of hidden nationalists and foreign agents in them. Against this background, the policy of Ukrainization is beginning to be curtailed.
                      Quote: Alexey RA
                      Who returned the nationalist Grushevsky from Austria (by the way, a long-standing enemy of Soviet power)
                      After several appeals of Grushevsky to the Ukrainian Soviet government, in which he condemned his counter-revolutionary activities, the All-Russian Central Executive Committee in 1924 allowed him to return to his homeland ..... This Grushevsky strongly requested.
                      But In 1931, Grushevsky was arrested and charged with "counter-revolutionary activity." He was charged with leadership of the anti-Soviet Ukrainian National Center. Most of his students and staff who worked with him in the 1920s were also repressed.

                      This is not described in any way, but it is very strange: After being released from custody, he worked in Moscow [6]. Perhaps the organs "worked" with him.

                      In 1934 he went to Kislovodsk for treatment, where he died suddenly after a simple surgical operation [6].
                      Family fate
                      In the late 1930s, the works of Grushevsky were banned in the USSR, many relatives (among them his daughter, also a famous historian) were repressed. During the persecution of members of the Grushevsky family, the testimonies of his former student (and at the same time an informant of the NKVD, and later the Ukrainian collaborator) K.F.
                      This is a sad joke about a partisan detachment of two Ukrainians, and a partisan detachment with a traitor of three Ukrainians.
                      1. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 10 December 2019 17: 20
                        +3
                        I can explain all this by the fact that the Ukrainian Communist Party was very strong, and its leadership could demand preferences in the form of "Ukrainization" for supporting the Bolsheviks in the fight against the intervention and in the Civil War. Redneck and cunning you know who are proverbs.
                      2. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 11 December 2019 10: 14
                        -6
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        As part of the USSR, this didn't haveof great importance, while the USSR was alive.

                        If it didn’t have, so WHAT was transferred to the so-called. "ussr" ?! And barbaric Ukrainizations are arranged ?!

                        Why didn’t anyone transmit anything to RUSSIA, eh? fool
                  3. Squelcher
                    Squelcher 12 December 2019 02: 55
                    -1
                    Under the "rotten" tsarism, where did the Germans get to? And where did the Germans go in the Second World War?
            2. Vladimir_2U
              Vladimir_2U 10 December 2019 13: 40
              +7
              Quote: Olgovich
              From the book of the Russian soldier Kondratiev, a participant in the battle of Rzhev
              Soviet soldier.
              Quote: Olgovich
              Kazan, Ulan-Ude
              Russia is still, but it rests on the Soviet memory. And such as Olgovich, they all mess it up and mess it up.
              About Ulan-Ude, I write this in absolute confidence.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 10 December 2019 14: 28
                -12
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Soviet soldier.

                RUSSIAN: how he was on the Kulikovo field, on Borodino, near Austerlitz and near Poltava and in Syria:
                Kondratyev: We fought for our home, for our street, for our Moscow, for our village, for our loved ones. We fought for RUSSIA. And won the war, of course, Russian patriotism.
                ..
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Russia is still, but it rests on the Soviet memory. And such as Olgovich her everything foul and foul.
                About Ulan-ude i write this in absolute confidenceyou

                I have not been there, you are there -were.

                If it’s crap, it’s only ... you. request Is not it? wink lol
                1. Vladimir_2U
                  Vladimir_2U 10 December 2019 14: 42
                  +9
                  And Olgovich was in
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Kulikovo field, on Borodinsky, near Austerlitz and near Poltava and in Syria
                  ?? Probably not. Maybe that's why it is not filthy there?
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  she is all filthy and filthy

                  How can you be in "Soviet memory"?
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  We fought for RUSSIA. And he won the war, of course, Russian patriotism.

                  And also Buryat, Tatar, Jewish and much more what kind of patriotism? Or maybe it was Soviet patriotism?
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 10 December 2019 14: 52
                    -9
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    And Olgovich was in
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    Kulikovo field, on Borodinsky, near Austerlitz and near Poltava and in Syria
                    ?? Probably not. Maybe that's why it is not filthy there?
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    they all mess it up and messing up

                    How can byt in "sovetskoh memory "?

                    belay In RUSSIAN write, huh?
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    And also Buryat, Tatar, Jewish and much more what kind of patriotism? Or maybe it was soviet patriotism?

                    Yes? On the Kulikovo field? Near Borodino? Near Poltava? In the August forests?
                    1. Vladimir_2U
                      Vladimir_2U 10 December 2019 15: 28
                      +6
                      How do they call each other
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      Yes? On the Kulikovo field? Near Borodino? Near Poltava? In the August forests?

                      from 1942-43? No way. What did Olgovich drag him to? Perhaps due to cereal in the head.
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      but it rests on Soviet memory. And such as Olgovich, they all mess it up and mess it up
                      Fouls what? Soviet memory. Who messes up? Olgovich. Can one be in Soviet memory? No. (It was possible to stay.)
                      Everything is in Russian. And Olgovichevsky outcry quote.
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 11 December 2019 10: 19
                        -6
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        from 1942-43? You do not. What did Olgovich drag him to? Perhaps due to cereal in the head.

                        PROTECTION OF THE FATHERLAND - familiar with the same concept?
                        Apparently not.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Fouls what? Soviet memory. Who messes up? Olgovich. Can one be in Soviet memory? No. (It was possible to stay.)
                        Everything is in Russian.

                        It is "impossible" to be in it, but "to remain" in it ... "you can".
                        belay request lol
                        Yes, you Cicero, nice man! hi lol
          2. perm23
            perm23 10 December 2019 18: 51
            +7
            as Uncle Vasya Margelov said. no matter what your skin color and eye shape. If you are for Russia you are Russian.
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 11 December 2019 10: 20
              -5
              Quote: perm23
              as Uncle Vasya Margelov said. no matter what your skin color and eye shape. If you are for Russia you are Russian.

              What and speech.
        3. evgic
          evgic 10 December 2019 16: 52
          +7
          Here again came the messenger of Goebbels's propaganda, a lover of crispy rolls from Russia which we had lost, a great talker of nonsense. Yes, for "Motherland they wrote" but it was not a crust-baked RI and the USSR was then the homeland. They also wrote "For Stalin". And the four years of the Second World War showed that people fought for the USSR, unlike the Republic of Ingushetia, in the second year there was a general desertion, and then the country completely died. This is a historical fact.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 11 December 2019 10: 29
            -5
            Quote: evgic
            Yes, for "Motherland they wrote" but it was not a crust-baked RI and the USSR was then the homeland.

            Someone you translatorhired? No?
            So what?

            the front-line soldier is the comfrey Kondratiev. -
            We fought for our home, for our street, for our Moscow, for our village, for our loved ones. We fought for Russia. And he won the war, of course, Russian patriotism.


            You are nothing compared to him.
            1. evgic
              evgic 11 December 2019 11: 47
              +2
              How much pathos is out of the blue. You are nothing compared to the millions of those who died who went through the war and have the opposite opinion to the comfrey Kondratyev who did not sit in the trenches. And this no one posts the miasms of his sick imagination day after day. My grandfather fought in the 21st Guards Rifle Division of the Nevelsk Division until 1945, including in the Rzhev direction, left quite detailed memories, without any garbage, that your "comfrey" wrote. As for the translator or not, maybe you will find a veteran (there are really few of them left, so you are so brave here) and ask what was meant. But you won't, because 99 out of 100 will spit in your face.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 11 December 2019 12: 55
                -6
                Quote: evgic
                About how much pathos from scratch. You nobody compared to millions of dead, past war and having the opposite not to the comfrey Kondratyev, who was sitting in the trenches, opinion.

                1. "poke" yourself, yes.
                2. Have you been authorized to speak on their behalf? No one? So what? belay
                Quote: evgic
                And this nobody fasts every day miasm his sick imagination.

                Smell - from the comment, yes yes
                Quote: evgic
                . As for the translator or not, you can find a veteran (there really are few of them left, so you’re so brave here) and ask what was meant. But you won’t do it because how 99 out of 100 will spit on you in face.

                Again penniless fish: YOU, personally, what do you have to do with these veterans? Ah, no?
                so into yourself and yes. yes
                1. evgic
                  evgic 11 December 2019 13: 04
                  +1
                  You go and ask. But you are afraid, you know that I'm right. And I personally wrote about what I have to do with veterans, but it’s not good to see you, which is not surprising judging by the depth of the idiocy of your comments.
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 11 December 2019 13: 13
                    -5
                    Quote: evgic
                    You go and ask. But you are afraid, you know that I'm right. And what am I personally I’m related to veterans, but it’s not good to see you, which is not surprising if you judge by the depth of the idiocy of your comments

                    1. Are you? Nothing.

                    2. Do not grind a BAD, but read a veteran, a war invalid, the great Russian writer Viktor Astafiev: he to you and allALL answered already and much cooler than me.
                    1. evgic
                      evgic 11 December 2019 15: 22
                      +2
                      So how about asking the veterans what "For the Motherland" meant to them? Or are you afraid you won't have enough handkerchiefs to wipe off? For one Astafiev there are a thousand others, including those who are personally acquainted with the opposite opinion. And you cannot answer anything, you have no arguments, only stubbornness, turning into a clinical form of mental disability.
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 12 December 2019 09: 45
                        -2
                        Quote: evgic
                        So how about asking the veterans what "For the Motherland" meant to them? Or are you afraid you won't have enough handkerchiefs to wipe off?

                        Asked and answered, see. above what.
                        Quote: evgic
                        On one Astafiev one thousand others, including me personally familiar with the opposite opinion.

                        Liar
                        Astafyev is not alone: ​​dozens of THOUSAND comfrey warmly thanked him for the TRUTH: Go and see!
                        Quote: evgic
                        And you can’t answer anything

                        All is answered.
                        Quote: evgic
                        you have no arguments, only stubbornness that turns into clinical form of mental disability.

                        Ugh, is that you again ?.
                        Fi ...
                      2. evgic
                        evgic 12 December 2019 10: 15
                        +1
                        So how about asking a liar to a bakery. I do not know any veteran scribbler of this respect. And my friends do not know. And acquaintances of acquaintances. Made up all the comments with his stool
        4. Looking for
          Looking for 10 December 2019 17: 01
          +8
          They fought for their Soviet homeland. For the USSR. And not for mythical Russia.
          1. Walking
            Walking 10 December 2019 20: 53
            +3
            Actually, the executions of the Red Army for finding German leaflets with them calling for surrender were, I myself, while working in the service in the archives of the NKVD in the 90s, read about this in the reports of special departments. Basically, these are reports for 1941 and until the end of the summer of 1942. Usually this happened during inspections at checkpoints during retreats, this was aggravating evidence of desertion.
        5. ikrut
          ikrut 14 December 2019 01: 37
          0
          My father fought in Stalingrad during the most difficult period. I was in the last trench near the Volga. So he said that the last political instructor, raising them to attack (the officers had already been knocked out), shouted: "If you forgot that you are Soviet, remember that you are Russian."
  2. Strashila
    Strashila 10 December 2019 06: 40
    +11
    There were dozens of such "Rzhevs" along the entire front line, "small towns", "villages", "heights". Where for a long time a bloody stalemate developed, where they could break through and capture, but the strength to hold was no longer enough. Wearing out the enemy, the Soviet troops suffered losses, but forced the Germans to keep troops in this sector, which made it possible to create an advantage against the occupiers in other sectors, where they slowly and surely grind.
  3. Plantagenet
    Plantagenet 10 December 2019 07: 11
    -10
    “Regardless of the losses - and they were huge! - the command of the 30th Army continued to send more and more battalions to the slaughter, this is the only way to call what I saw on the field. Both the commanders and the soldiers understood the meaninglessness of what was happening more and more clearly: or the villages, for which they laid their heads, were not taken, this did not help in the least to solve the problem of capturing Rzhev. More and more often the soldier was seized with indifference, but they explained to him that he was wrong in his too simple trench reasoning ... "

    From the memoirs of veteran Boris Gorbachevsky
    1. Alexander Suvorov
      Alexander Suvorov 10 December 2019 08: 45
      +17
      Plantagenet (Alexander) Increasingly, the soldier was seized by indifference, but they explained to him that he was wrong in his too simple trench reasoning ... "
      In Stalingrad it was the same, in Leningrad, too, and now what? A bayonet to the ground? And in Sevastopol, when the soldiers and sailors were simply left to their own devices? HOW WAS IT NECESSARY? Now it’s easy to reason while sitting on the couch with a beer, but when there was simply no choice. Do not be afraid to judge what you do not understand.
    2. evgic
      evgic 10 December 2019 17: 00
      +1
      Excuse me, but who is the veteran Boris Gorbachevsky? Did he command the front, Amia or the regiment? I don’t think otherwise I didn’t write garbage. And what can an ordinary person see from a trench? Never mind. Only simple trench considerations.
      1. Plantagenet
        Plantagenet 10 December 2019 20: 14
        +1
        "In general, I must say that the Supreme Commander realized that the unfavorable situation that developed in the summer of 1942 was also a consequence of his personal mistake, which was made when approving the plan of action for our troops in the summer campaign of this year."

        Commander of the Western Front Zhukov G.K.
        1. evgic
          evgic 11 December 2019 08: 40
          0
          And what this proves, I do not understand. Summer 1942 is not Rzhev. Generally not about that quote. Everyone was wrong, including Zhukov. Do you want to say something, our laconic
      2. hrulevv
        hrulevv 11 December 2019 10: 50
        0
        That is why the beetles probably did not write about Rzhev in ,, Memoirs and Reflections ,,
      3. Margarita Kurbatova
        Margarita Kurbatova 10 November 2021 09: 16
        0
        Why from the trench? There were only clerks with such a surname.
    3. Hantengri
      Hantengri 10 December 2019 21: 22
      -2
      Quote: Plantagenet
      Increasingly, the soldier became indifferent, but they explained to him that he was wrong in his too simple trench arguments ..."

      Correctly explained!
      Quote: Plantagenet
      From the memoirs of veteran Boris Gorbachevsky

      Who is it? What rank was at that time?
  4. odometer
    odometer 10 December 2019 07: 45
    +3
    "... the quality of management ..." is the only correct conclusion, everything else is from the evil one.
  5. Moskovit
    Moskovit 10 December 2019 08: 04
    +26
    Friends have a summer house in an abandoned village near Rzhev. Bought 7 years ago. You immediately understand the significance of the Rzhev ledge when you reach Moscow for more than 2 hours. Until the age of 43, when Stalingrad thundered, the blockade was broken and the Germans stood just two hours from Moscow!
    The site is littered with shells and bullets. Especially collected a lot in the first years. Even handed over in colormet. Knowledgeable locals find things more serious, but they are silent, because for this you can get a term.
    Went on mushrooms. Muscovites didn’t comb the places there, so in a few hours you can collect several buckets of excellent mushrooms, half white. Drunkards are being added this fall, but unfortunately there are not a few of them. The region is depressing.
    In the forest, craters are found here and there. From small to giant pits.
    In general, the breath of war is still felt.
    1. Same lech
      Same lech 10 December 2019 08: 11
      +3
      In general, the breath of war is still felt.

      I sometimes look through videos of what diggers and official squads of search engines do there ... where they can’t find the remains of soldiers ... a heavy feeling in my heart arises when you see the places of death of people.
      1. Moskovit
        Moskovit 10 December 2019 09: 20
        +22
        Another acquaintance, unfortunately now dropped out of communication, was very seriously engaged in the search at another site of this battle in Sychevka. Their search squad had official status, but there was already a cohesive team that worked together for many years. When they first started in the early 2000s, hundreds of fighters were counted! He told me that the metal detector was thrown out after 5 minutes. It rang like announced, there was so much metal. The main tool is a dipstick and a shovel. And how much paper work was there, everything is precisely written down, contributed, tied to the terrain.
        Their detachment was a big hemorrhoid for both the Moscow Region and the local authorities. After all, it was necessary to rebury the fallen, put a memorial sign, but they have no money for it ...
        They are meticulous guys. In winter, he went to the archives of Moscow Region in Podolsk. I was looking for information about Sychev’s battles there. And this is only everyday life, so I had to leave work forever at my own expense. In general, the work is ungrateful, but necessary.
        1. Hantengri
          Hantengri 10 December 2019 21: 26
          +1
          Quote: Moskovit
          In general, the work is ungrateful, but necessary.

          Many human thanks to these people!
    2. Fisherman
      Fisherman 10 December 2019 12: 20
      +7
      I also feel the breath of war when I come to Valdai, namely to Lake Ukleinsky. You go mushrooming into the forest and you see trenches, funnels from shells and mines. Very similar to the Demian events of 1942.
  6. BAI
    BAI 10 December 2019 09: 05
    +2
    Once the author did not say anything at all about the fact that one of the reasons for the high losses of the Red Army near Rzhev was the deliberate leakage by the Soviet counterintelligence of information about the upcoming Soviet offensive on this sector of the front in order to distract the Germans from Stalingrad and not allow them to transfer reserves there. Which prevented the much larger losses of the Red Army near Stalingrad. Rzhev is a distraction, so to speak.
  7. Paul Siebert
    Paul Siebert 10 December 2019 09: 12
    +10
    The Russian people are rapidly dying out, losing their Russianness, their "I".

    We have not lost any "Russianness".
    Neither in 90, nor today.
    This feeling is too deep.
    Do not etch it, do not take it away.
    Otherwise, we would not angrily discuss the film "Rzhev", but with a smile we would eat popcorn at the premiere of this movie shit.
    1. Moskovit
      Moskovit 10 December 2019 09: 33
      +12
      Very strange logic in our power. A giant memorial is being built near Rzhev dedicated to those battles, and such abomination is immediately removed.
  8. Doctor
    Doctor 10 December 2019 09: 36
    -3
    In addition, despite the duration, perseverance and heavy losses, the battles for Rzhev were never of key importance on the Russian front.


    In this case, the Battle of Rzhev, of course, was of strategic importance.


    That is the whole point. I would like to eat a fish and sit on a banana and stay as a girl.

    Of course, Rzhev was of strategic importance, the author himself calls it the “gateway of Moscow”. And that is precisely why we so painfully long and bloodyly tried to squeeze the Germans out of this area.
    But it didn’t work out. Despite the fact that the commander was commanded, we considered the best. And this is the main reason for the silence of the Rzhev events.
    1. kov123
      kov123 10 December 2019 11: 03
      +3
      The commander who is considered to be the best among us did not command there all the time. And the other commander, who considers himself the best, mumbled up his mother, do not worry, but modestly blamed everything on the first ....
      1. Doctor
        Doctor 10 December 2019 11: 30
        +5
        The commander who is considered to be the best among us did not command there all the time. And the other commander, who considers himself the best, mumbled up his mother, do not worry, but modestly blamed everything on the first ....


        I didn’t catch it. Like in that joke:

        Zhukov leaves Stalin’s office, wipes his forehead:
        - Fu, you bastard mustache ...
        Beria heard, reported to Stalin, so, they say, and so, Zhukov, leaving your office, said this.
        Zhukov is summoned to Stalin, he asks:
        - Tell me, comrade Zhyukov, here vie, coming from me yesterday, they said "you mustache bastard." Who did they mean?
        - Hitler, Comrade Stalin!
        Stalin calls Beria, retells the dialogue:
        “And who did you mean, comrade Beria?”
  9. Olgovich
    Olgovich 10 December 2019 10: 19
    -15
    that we were defeated in 1991-1993. in the cold (third world war)


    The Cold War went on from 1946 to 1990. In 1991, she was simply gone.
    in respect of Russian powerss and people implemented plans that hatched the leaders of the Third Reich. Great Russia (USSR) is divided, we were taken Kiev is the ancient Russian capital, Small and White Russia, the Baltic states, Bessarabia-Moldova, Transcaucasia, Turkestan.

    Right!
    But WHO didn’t take away from the Russian state everything that was put into practice - the author doesn’t write ..... request

    And it was done by those who, for 23 years, from 1917 to 1940, continuously and painstakingly cut off and cut off these countless "states" from it: the Ussr, the BSSR, the USSR, etc.

    The author does not notice that the territory, for example, the BSSR, AFTER the formation of the USSR in 1922, was increased ... THREE times at the expense of Russia!

    That the territory of Russia decreased after 1922 to 1940 by THIRTEEN GERMANY!

    The borders of the Russian state were not established in 1991, and in 1917-1940.
    The "secret" Rzhev battle became one of the main symbols of the low professional level of the Soviet command, Stalin's mistakes, huge senseless losses of the Red Army, etc.


    You can’t say better than a direct participant in the Battle of Rzhev:
    It was at this time that the Germans launched a grand offensive in the Caucasus and Stalingrad, and all reserves were thrown there. But no one canceled Stalin’s brutal order: to take Rzhev at any cost. And in the future we, remaining here, as if “local troops”, completely exhausted, they were six kilometers from Rzhev in front of the strongly fortified defenses of the Nazis, forced to attack German fortifications without artillery preparation, stomping on the spot and bleeding. The Germans had their own, no less merciless order from Hitler: Rzhev not to hand over under no circumstances!

    And a new painful, unpromising, doomed advance in advance by means of the remaining exhausted rifle divisions began, while the Germans urgently caught up a lot of artillery, tanks, aircraft under Rzhev and kept counterattacking us with fresh superior forces. For us it was an offensive for the sake of an offensive, the formal execution of Stalin’s order to capture Rzhev. On the one hand, Zhukov and Konev were afraid to justify to Stalin the impossibility of taking Rzhev with the remaining forces; on the other hand, they deliberately created the illusion of Stalin: the offensive continues and is successful. In fact, this offensive turned into a "Rzhev meat grinder." Our command methodically, thousands and thousands of soldiers poured and poured into it every day. And the result was one: DEAD FIELDS, "GROVES OF DEATH", "VALUES OF DEATH"along which we crawled unsuccessfully and fled from the marshes to the hills fortified by the Germans. The Germans also suffered losses, because that we fought selflesslybut their losses were not comparable with ours.
    Mikhin "Gunners, Stalin gave the order!"
    1. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 10 December 2019 13: 32
      +11
      Anti-Soviet, which means Russophobe Olgovich in the attack.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 10 December 2019 14: 54
        -15
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        Anti-Soviet, which means Russophobe Olgovich in the attack.

        lol Again verbal garbage and- not a word on this topic.

        Shame ....
        1. Looking for
          Looking for 10 December 2019 17: 07
          +6
          Why give you a reason for verbiage.
  10. geologist
    geologist 10 December 2019 10: 57
    +8
    The ratio of losses when breaking into a defense saturated with machine guns, according to Douai's calculations, is 1: 100 for top armies, and for poorly trained armies of the countries of the 3rd world it is even more up to 1: 300, especially in winter, when the infantry simply cannot quickly run through deep snow to the line of fortifications. The Finns counted on this, who probably achieved a high efficiency of their defense in the first phase of the war, when under the flanking fire of invisible machine guns, entire battalions perished in one attack. The French method of "gnawing" the defense is guaranteed to give millions of dead and all countries were afraid of a repeat of Verdun. More progressive methods of hacking were proposed by the Germans - assault groups and the British - the massive use of armored tractors. In Finnish, our troops applied both methods very successfully in the second phase, but it was a war against an outdated army without strong aviation, artillery and armored forces. The German army - the top-end, as they say now, we learned to beat only by accumulating material resources for breaking into a defense saturated with all types of modern weapons. When we got thousands of heavy guns and elite mechanized corps, the Germans wavered. In the meantime, near Rzhev, our troops experienced all the horrors of trench warfare, but the army of each country must go through this experience in order to learn how to win.
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 10 December 2019 11: 42
      +4
      Such calculations were never and never. And the ratio of losses has never been observed even close. Surprisingly, the attackers broke through the fortified front, albeit without access to the operational space (that is, without encircling enemy groups), but at the same time they suffered LESS losses. An example is the German offensive in 1918. Even more examples where losses were comparable.
      1. Doliva63
        Doliva63 10 December 2019 17: 02
        +1
        Quote: Engineer
        Such calculations were never and never. And the ratio of losses has never been observed even close. Surprisingly, the attackers broke through the fortified front, albeit without access to the operational space (that is, without encircling enemy groups), but at the same time they suffered LESS losses. An example is the German offensive in 1918. Even more examples where losses were comparable.

        It’s not like your opponent’s, but there are still calculations: 1 to 3 and 1 to 5 for different situations. But this is after the war. As it was then, not in the know.
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 10 December 2019 17: 17
          +2
          1 to 3 and 1 to 5

          This is not a calculation of losses, but a calculation of the balance of forces for a successful attack on a selected site
          1. Doliva63
            Doliva63 10 December 2019 17: 21
            0
            Quote: Engineer
            1 to 3 and 1 to 5

            This is not a calculation of losses, but a calculation of the balance of forces for a successful attack on a selected site

            In your opinion, the calculation of losses is not laid here? Hm.
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 10 December 2019 17: 30
              +2
              Of course laid, but with this balance of power, the offensive have save combat readiness. I.e estimated the ratio of losses is not 1: 3, and even more so 1: 5
              Example from BUSW
              The immediate task of the battalion is to defeat the enemy in the battlefield (company strong point). That same realization of superiority 3: 1
              Further tasks are possible options. That is, the battalion retains combat effectiveness.
              1. Doliva63
                Doliva63 10 December 2019 17: 34
                -1
                Quote: Engineer
                Of course laid, but with this balance of power, the offensive have save combat readiness. I.e estimated the ratio of losses is not 1: 3, and even more so 1: 5
                Example from BUSW
                The immediate task of the battalion is to defeat the enemy in the battlefield (company strong point). That same realization of superiority 3: 1
                Further tasks are possible options. That is, the battalion retains combat effectiveness.

                About BUS, I, as it were, in the know. Well, that is, the losses in the calculation are inherent? Why did you argue? laughing
                1. Engineer
                  Engineer 10 December 2019 17: 36
                  +3
                  Argued with estimated the amount of losses 1: 3. Obviously the same. If that were so, then the further task would not be posed.
                  1. Doliva63
                    Doliva63 10 December 2019 17: 49
                    0
                    Quote: Engineer
                    Argued with estimated the amount of losses 1: 3. Obviously the same. If that were so, then the further task would not be posed.

                    No, you argued that there is no calculation of losses at all. This is if on the merits. As for 1 to 3, this is a "pawn" on the offensive, which still needs to be developed, that is, up to 2 orders of forces have already been included in losses. Let's take an offensive in the breakthrough sector - it is there 1 to 5, because it is necessary to break through even at the cost of losing 2-3 squads of forces and equipment. And then other parts will go into the breakthrough. But I write this after 250 with beer, if that laughing Sober I don’t go to VO, nothing sober drinks
                    1. Engineer
                      Engineer 10 December 2019 17: 56
                      +3
                      No, you argued that there is no loss calculation at all.

                      Exactly. Anyone who has studied the charter and who has been taught at least the basics of tactics knows that 3: 1 and 5: 1 superiority is laid down first of all to create the fire superiority necessary for the implementation of the offensive. This calculation is not for loss. About them in the textbooks on tactics and statutes in general are not talking. That is, they are possible and taken into account, but this is not the main factor in general.
                      By the way, for stubbornly upholding the thesis that 3: 1 is needed to compensate for the losses at the time I got two on the military commissariat for tactics.
                      1. Doliva63
                        Doliva63 10 December 2019 18: 15
                        0
                        Quote: Engineer
                        No, you argued that there is no loss calculation at all.

                        Exactly. Anyone who has studied the charter and who has been taught at least the basics of tactics knows that 3: 1 and 5: 1 superiority is laid down first of all to create the fire superiority necessary for the implementation of the offensive. This calculation is not for loss. About them in the textbooks on tactics and statutes in general are not talking. That is, they are possible and taken into account, but this is not the main factor in general.

                        I wonder what school they taught like that in? laughing
                        The superiority of fire is not provided at the level of, for example, a battalion, as in your example. In the case of the battalion, fire suppression (and not superiority) in the breakthrough area is provided by the entire artillery of the regiment and the DAG - the divisional artillery group. In addition to the DAG, army and front-line art groups are already working on the regiment. We have forgotten about aviation - from army to frontline. But, to be honest, after college, where they studied all this, I served only in intelligence - from the battalion to the army corps, where all this was not very interesting to me, maybe I forgot something already. And in reconnaissance, losses were not "laid down" at all, because the group that accepted the battle was immediately "written off" as unable to complete the task. Here she is so different, the army drinks
                      2. Engineer
                        Engineer 11 December 2019 10: 52
                        0
                        I wonder what school they taught

                        He did not study at the military department. In the army, I had to refresh my knowledge when I was preparing for the competition of platoon commanders.
                        Fire superiority is not provided at the level of, for example, a battalion, as in your example

                        Fire superiority is provided on all levels. But we have already rolled offtopic.
    2. Captain45
      Captain45 10 December 2019 19: 52
      0
      Quote: geologist
      The ratio of losses when breaking into a defense saturated with machine guns, according to Douet's calculations, is 1: 100 for top armies,

      Maybe I'm wrong (not a big connoisseur of history), but as far as I remember, the basis of the Italian Marshal Douet’s strategy was aviation - the Douet’s massive bombing of strategic sites and army reserves was supposed to break the defensive potential of the defending country. So all the other runs in deep snow under machine guns are from some other opera. And the standard ratio of forces in breaking through the defense according to the infantry control unit is 4: 1, somehow as far as I remember from the Soviet Army.
      1. geologist
        geologist 11 December 2019 08: 03
        0
        It is enough to read the beginning of the first book from the works of Douai, where there is a link to loss calculations.
  11. Engineer
    Engineer 10 December 2019 11: 38
    -2
    The article is frankly weak. I will explain why.
    The problem of the Rzhev meat grinder has a long history and a very interesting discussion. It all started when the American researcher David Glantz published Zhukov's Greatest Defeat: The Red Army's Epic Disaster in Operation Mars, 1999 (1942) in 1999. In addition to describing the general failure, Glantz made a comparison of the forces allocated for participation with those allocated for the operation Saturn (counteroffensive at Stalingrad) and came to the conclusion that it was Operation Mars that was the main one, and Saturn was supposed to be the auxiliary strike. But due to errors in determining the Axis forces at Stalingrad, the operation, Saturn ended in the encirclement of an unexpectedly very large enemy grouping. Thus, Glantz's theses can be summarized as follows:
    The offensive at Rzhev is the strategic defeat of the Soviet Army in the direction of the main attack.
    The offensive at Stalingrad is an auxiliary strike, which turned out to be unexpectedly extremely successful and acquired strategic importance.
    A lively discussion began. A proponent of the official point of view, the historian Orlov, has issued refutation articles. The well-known Alexei Isaev suddenly sided with Glanz.
    In general, it is high time to understand that there are no "patriotic" or "liberal" theories, concepts, approaches. There are only reasoned unreasoned ones. And then there is the "writer" Samsonov on VO. It is beyond categories and competition).
    1. Doctor
      Doctor 10 December 2019 11: 45
      -1
      The offensive at Stalingrad is an auxiliary strike, which turned out to be unexpectedly extremely successful and acquired strategic importance.


      As in the landing operation on Malaya Zemlya.
    2. Operator
      Operator 10 December 2019 11: 57
      +11
      You are clearly delusional (together with David Glantz) - a series of operations to cut off the Rzhev salient began in January and ended in December 1942, and Operation Uranus to encircle German troops at Stalingrad began in November 1942.

      How in November can the enemy be distracted from the January-October hostilities? laughing

      Following the "Uranus" operation "Little Saturn" to build on the success at Stalingrad took place in December 1942. Planned for 1943 (forty-third, Karl), Operation Saturn was aimed at another encirclement of the enemy now in the North Caucasus, but there was not enough strength - the Germans were able to withdraw their troops across the Dnieper.
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 10 December 2019 12: 22
        -1
        I deliberately limited myself only to setting out points of view without own assessment.
        But since such a booze ...
        Operation Mars-November 25th
        The offensive at Stalingrad on November 19 (Operation Uranus)
        Timing, as we see, in favor of the Glanz theory.
        For the sake of brevity, I did not specifically trace the evolution of Uranus-Saturn-Small Saturn. Anyone can do it on their own.
        Conclusion I do not consider Glanz's theory to be a reinforced concrete fact, but it is well-reasoned and for the development of history it is always good when official theories get reasonable kicks. She caused a new wave of interest in the topic while not being speculative. New good monographs appeared and it pleases me.
    3. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 10 December 2019 16: 56
      +4
      Quote: Engineer
      In addition to describing the general failure, Glanz made a comparison of the forces allocated for participation with those allocated for Operation Saturn (counteroffensive near Stalingrad) and concluded that it was Operation Mars that was the main one, and that Saturn should have been an auxiliary strike.

      EMNIP, Glanz had a mistake in his calculations of forces - he attributed the Moscow defense zone to the Soviet forces of Mars. Which, in fact, consisted of spare parts, SD and air defense forces and did not participate in hostilities.
      Without taking into account the MLO, the difference between "Mars" and "Uranus" ("Saturn" was later) is not so significant:
      Mars: 702 people and 924 tanks.
      Uranus: 667 people and 478 tanks.
      PMSM, Mars and Uranus were equivalent operations - the "fork". And one of them would be successful in any development of events. If the Germans, as in real life, hold the defense in the "Center" zone, without sending anything to help Paulus, then "Uranus" ends in a ring around Stalingrad. If the Germans save Paulus by undressing the GA "Center" - then GA "Center" gets its ring as a result of the successful "Mars".
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 10 December 2019 17: 15
        +2
        This is a conversation.
        Glanza in the calculations of forces crept error

        In any case, it turns out that the Uranus operation started earlier and there are less forces for it (Isaev also did less). It turns out that Glanz’s point of view is at least worth considering, and not rejected indiscriminately.
        not sending anything to help Paulus

        The help to Paulus was also solid. I remind you about the "Winter Storm" operation led by "the best operational intelligence of the Wehrmacht." That is, in fact, the success of the Little Saturn was not guaranteed at the strategic level in any way.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 10 December 2019 18: 38
          +2
          Quote: Engineer
          The help to Paulus was also solid. I remind you about the "Winter Storm" operation led by "the best operational intelligence of the Wehrmacht."

          And remember - where did the main striking force of the Winter Storm come from? And how many did the Germans manage to assemble mechanical units for a breakthrough?
          And now let's imagine that Manstein does not need to wait for the transfer of the division across all of Europe - part of the mobile formations of the Center GA, in real life connected by Mars and pretty battered by him, is castled to him:
          The forces of six mobile formations of the Germans fell on two mechanized corps of the Kalinin Front: the 1st, 12th, 19th and 20th Panzer divisions, the Great Germany motorized division, and the 1st SS cavalry division. In the area of ​​Young Tud, the 14th Motorized Division and units of Great Germany participated in repelling the Soviet offensive.
          © Isaev
          Or Manstein is waiting for the 6th Panzerdivision - and the "Center" formations additionally strengthen the "breakthrough group" assembled in real life.
          And then either Volsky’s mechanized corps, hastily redirected combined-arms armies, or cavalrymen and Volsky do not withstand a much more powerful (than in real life) strike either do not have time to build a defense.

          In real life:
          The chain of battles for Rzhev significantly weakened the German 9th Army. One of the main heroes of the battle, the 1st Panzer Division, was withdrawn from the army and sent for re-equipment to the West. She appeared on the Eastern Front only in the autumn of 1943 and simply did not participate in the crucial battle on the Kursk Bulge. All the rest of the formations that took part in repelling the Soviet offensive near Rzhev and Sychevka suffered substantial losses. So, already in mid-December, the 78th Infantry Division was assessed as "low-combat", although it was one of the best divisions of the Wehrmacht.
          1. Liam
            Liam 10 December 2019 18: 54
            +4
            And what would it be like if the armies of the Red Army burned near Rzhev were instead in the Stalingrad region do not want to? What, for example, would happen to the Wehrmacht troops in the Caucasus.
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 11 December 2019 11: 04
              0
              I don’t like alternatives, but if you ask the question of where to use shock joints optimally, then Rzhev is a very bad option
              1. The terrain is inconvenient for tanks and convenient for defense.
              2. The Germans since the beginning of the year have been improving the defense in this direction. The previous Rzhevsko-Sychevskaya ended two months before the onset of Mars. The enemy buried himself in the ground, shot every meter.
              I agree that in another place our strike formations were more likely.
              PMSM, Mars and Uranus were equivalent operations - the "fork".

              If this was so, then this technique was no longer used for obvious reasons. 10 Stalinist strikes were already done according to a different scheme.
              Summary - The Rzhev operation (Mars) is a strategic defeat (but not defeat) of the Soviet Army. It just remained in the shadow of the success of Stalingrad. The forces spent on it would be more useful elsewhere and this is not an afterthought (see paragraphs 1 and 2 above)
              1. alstr
                alstr 12 December 2019 17: 45
                0
                In addition, the following fact should be noted. The weather at the time the offensive began was disgusting. As a result, the Art preparation went without adjustment (visibility decreased to 20-50 meters), and the aircraft did not fly (and did not fly for several more days).

                Those. at the crucial moment (breakthrough), the infantry and tanks were deprived of normal fire support.
  12. svp67
    svp67 10 December 2019 11: 40
    +8
    Rzhev, for us, of course, is a difficult topic ... but we also need to know it, remember it and strive more than to NEVER REPEAT.
    But even here, the first photo in the article "smiled" a little, you look and the grandfathers were holding weapons on the tower, just like our AK ... By the way, then I was surprised, but where did the rifle come from in the arsenal of tankers, I looked closely, but it's K- 98 "Mauser carbine" means TROPHY. Well done GREATS. Low bow to them and ETERNAL MEMORY
    1. beeper
      beeper 11 December 2019 05: 35
      +2
      Quote: svp67
      Rzhev, for us, of course, is a difficult topic ... but we also need to know it, remember it and strive more than to NEVER REPEAT.
      But even here, the first photo in the article "smiled" a little, you look and the grandfathers were holding weapons on the tower, just like our AK ... By the way, then I was surprised, but where did the rifle come from in the arsenal of tankers, I looked closely, but it's K- 98 "Mauser carbine" means TROPHY. Well done GREATS. Low bow to them and ETERNAL MEMORY

      I also drew attention to the German "Mauser", which was stuck on the T-34 turret of an early release, was surprised and then only realized that this idyllic "oil painting" was a disguised tank "ambush" on the outskirts of the village, Hitler's, and the tanks were captured ! request
      And all this, exemplary equipped and winter-style camouflage, tactical magnificence on the front line was photographed by the Germans themselves ...

      According to the recollections of the participants in the Rzhev battles, the Nazis sat comfortably in positions in villages, in heated dugouts, huts, under the roof, and ours attacked them "from the field" - from swamps, from slimy, with icy swamp slurry, trenches ...

      Eternal Memory to the Defenders of the Fatherland for this, very hard-won, our common Victory!
  13. pmkemcity
    pmkemcity 10 December 2019 11: 52
    +2
    I advise Napoleons and all sorts of Mansteins to read Mideldorf's "The Russian Company. Tactics and Weapons". Then read it again, and then another .... Make a critical analysis, so to speak. On the one hand, the author criticizes the tactics of the Red Army - constant active actions, counterattacks, petty struggle for "meaningless" skyscrapers, ledges, buildings, the desire to impose "their will" on the enemy. On the other hand, he does not offer any other alternative to action. And "Russianness" comes through from each of his words, and not noticeably to the author himself.
    1. svp67
      svp67 10 December 2019 13: 23
      0
      Quote: pmkemcity
      And "Russianness" comes through from each of his words, and not noticeably to the author himself.

      I read, quite interesting. Especially about his assessment of the tactics of our infantry ... there are many things that I learned only from him.
      1. pmkemcity
        pmkemcity 10 December 2019 13: 51
        +3
        Of all the Nazi authors, perhaps only Hitler and Mideldorf are sincere. Each in its own way. One in error, the second in evaluations. But both do not lie.
        1. svp67
          svp67 10 December 2019 13: 54
          0
          Quote: pmkemcity
          Of all the Nazi authors, perhaps only Hitler and Mideldorf are sincere.

          But why? Halder's memoirs are the same, not without interest ...
          1. pmkemcity
            pmkemcity 10 December 2019 14: 00
            0
            Halder can only be read mixed with other authors who would complement the picture of the events described. So interesting, but difficult. The weak fighters in the teaching of Marxist-Leninist philosophy can pick up the wrong literature and swim ....
            1. svp67
              svp67 10 December 2019 14: 07
              +2
              Quote: pmkemcity
              So interesting, but difficult.

              Yes, I agree that you need to have a certain level of knowledge to read it. But when you have them, it’s very interesting, especially since it’s full of tables and maps. You look, compare, you understand where he is lying, and where he has already lied to us ... By the way, there is also Tippelskirch, with his History of the Second World War, the same interesting reading. In short, I was a little very surprised that I have these books of 54 and 56 years of release. And then I realized that in the "bloody USSR" they tried to thoroughly study the experience of the former enemy.
              1. pmkemcity
                pmkemcity 10 December 2019 15: 37
                +1
                So you can go down to Liddel Garth, in the sense of rising. Unfortunately, I did not come across such work about the Soviet Union.
                At the dawn of perestroika, I bought a collection of articles by German authors about the Second World War. Too lazy to look for what is called. Found - Results of the Second World War. Very strong and informative articles - how the Second World War was financed, the food problem and agriculture during the war, a German soldier. All six hundred pages are worth one sentence - infantry of such quality as in 1914, never in Germany ever again.
  14. Xenofont
    Xenofont 10 December 2019 11: 56
    +5
    Nowadays there is no need to ask the sacramental: "- With whom are you, cultural workers !?" The farther from the War, the nastier on "big screens".
    1. The Siberian barber
      The Siberian barber 10 December 2019 23: 00
      0
      Cultural workers fulfill the request from the Ministry of Culture, receiving funding from him
  15. 1970mk
    1970mk 10 December 2019 12: 14
    0
    "In reality, the battles in the Rzhev area were not secret, they simply did not focus on them .." ...
    Wonderful Saying! Just SILENCE that the losses are Fantastic! Just don't talk about it. As if there was nothing. And "secrecy" is not needed at all. Then the information was disseminated only by newspapers and TV from the radio .... and if all the years about it ZERO ... then "of course not classified."
  16. Operator
    Operator 10 December 2019 12: 34
    +8
    Quote: Engineer
    without own assessment

    But in vain - take a look at the calendar: in what sequence and with what time gap are the months of January, October and December laughing
  17. Blue fox
    Blue fox 10 December 2019 12: 53
    +2
    Quote: Moskovit
    In general, the work is ungrateful, but necessary.

    There is such a term among search engines and diggers "Rzhevsky saved". It is used when the safety of the found remains or artifacts is being assessed and means that the object has practically lost its properties and is difficult to identify. This is due to the peculiarities of the soil, the use of chemical fertilizers in the fields after the war and the nature of the terrain. Therefore, very often the discovered remains are very difficult to identify due to the fact that even the medals and orders found with them have become unusable, not to mention documents, personal belongings, etc. It happens that bone remains are difficult to distinguish from the remains of, for example, horses. Therefore, those of the search engines who work in the Rzhev region have, oh, how difficult it is.
    PS By the way, on the specialized forums in connection with the release of the trailer for "Rzhev", bitter jokes have already gone about the fact that in the 2020 season the people with metal detectors scampering in those parts will increase many times, as it was in due time after the release of the films "We are from the future".
    1. Moskovit
      Moskovit 10 December 2019 22: 16
      0
      Yes, I agree. There were a lot of some kind of bone fragments that had lost all shape. What is it? Bones of a cow, horses or God forbid a soldier
  18. Pecheneg
    Pecheneg 10 December 2019 13: 52
    +2
    All the same, it was a meat grinder. My grandfather was missing there, consider dead. I think it would be better to plan and carry out a distracting operation near Rzhev, but they would still consider this operation to be lost, just like the Winter War, although both of these operations ended in a strategic victory for the USSR.
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 11 December 2019 02: 10
      +1
      "... the diversion operation near Rzhev could have been better planned
      and spend "////
      ------
      She was not distracting. It was invented later, after the year 2000,
      to justify her failure.
      In Soviet times, nothing was written about the Rzhev operation, as if it weren’t
      existed ("taboo").
      It was a major offensive operation of the Red Army, ill-conceived, failed
      and resulting in huge, overwhelming losses.
      After this operation, Zhukov was completely removed from strategic planning
      until the age of 45. Before the Berlin operation.
  19. Pecheneg
    Pecheneg 10 December 2019 14: 07
    +11
    And the film is complete shit. I already wrote in the comments on VO that in Russia films about the war are bastards specialists, fanatical commissars, stupid commanders and would-be soldiers, and even some kind of fool in love will stick. And there are films about the war that you watch in one breath, worried about the heroes, causing a feeling of pride for grandfathers and grandmothers, you will experience a surge of patriotism, not this garbage like "Fighters", "Penal Battles", "Brotherhood", "Bastards" and others like that with them. To be honest, even "Sobibor" and "Svoi", "T-34" and "Battle for Sevastopol" do not stick around. Do not judge strictly, I just expressed my opinion, I do not impose it on anyone, as they say in taste and color ...
    1. The Siberian barber
      The Siberian barber 10 December 2019 23: 02
      0
      When money is in your head, creating a masterpiece is not easy)))
  20. hohol95
    hohol95 10 December 2019 15: 20
    +1
    I read SUCH an opinion - during the lull in the battles the Germans ALWAYS used twin-engine bombers to raid objects in the rear of the Red Army.
    At the same time, battles in the Rzhev direction distracted the air of the Luftwaffe!
  21. dgonni
    dgonni 10 December 2019 15: 30
    +3
    I haven't looked yet. But for Samokhin it may be a revelation! Yes, for a hidden German leaflet they shot right away. For according to many memoirs and memoirs of the war veterans in the leaflet, acroming with stories about the commissars and other issues, there was such a clarification at the end that this leaflet is a pass for capturing! That, as it were, hints at the fact that the fighter had already planned something not very patriotic and was going to screw captive on the bull.
    By the way, for the torn leaflet on the goat legs, no special officers had any questions. This is according to the recollections of my grandfather. But neatly folded and hidden and yes.
    1. hohol95
      hohol95 10 December 2019 16: 10
      0
      So the front-line soldiers believed in "the sweet life in captivity"? And that is why such "leaflets" were kept?
      1. dgonni
        dgonni 10 December 2019 16: 48
        +1
        What do you mean by the concept of war veterans? Life on the offensive on average for an infantryman, especially in 41-42 years, did not exceed an average of 4 days. On the defensive when positionally. That is up to a month and on relatively stable sites and up to 3. In the companies, as a rule, the backbone remained after stubborn battles. Although they left either for wounds or for death. So they knew what was possible and what wasn’t. Fighters from marching companies did not know anything in fact, and looking at the realities, leaflets often got used to it. Either self-roll or screw.
        1. hohol95
          hohol95 10 December 2019 17: 16
          +1
          What do you mean by the concept of war veterans?

          That's what I mean!
          Those who attacked! And retreated with the battles!
          Who burns enemy tanks with cop bottles!
          Who did not leave their broken guns and SO FURTHER ...
          Who shot to the last of the wrecked tanks ...
          Who was going to TARAN in burning planes ...
          At dawn on the second day, the Germans launched tanks. Three managed to knock out, but the fourth broke through to the emergency trench, which housed the seriously wounded, blind. They blew it up. Him and yourself ... Has this Alekhine ever seen a dying blind fighter throwing grenades at the roar of an engine under a tank ?!

          Vladimir Osipovich Bogomolov
          Moment of Truth (In August the forty-fourth ...)
    2. Doliva63
      Doliva63 10 December 2019 17: 14
      0
      Quote: dgonni
      I haven't looked yet. But for Samokhin it may be a revelation! Yes, for a hidden German leaflet they shot right away. For according to many memoirs and memoirs of the war veterans in the leaflet, acroming with stories about the commissars and other issues, there was such a clarification at the end that this leaflet is a pass for capturing! That, as it were, hints at the fact that the fighter had already planned something not very patriotic and was going to screw captive on the bull.
      By the way, for the torn leaflet on the goat legs, no special officers had any questions. This is according to the recollections of my grandfather. But neatly folded and hidden and yes.

      Well, not. Not shot. Problems could be, of course, but usually if they were picked up, it was on self-rolls. Although, of course, they read at the same time. This is from the recollections of my father. And they kept it in different ways, because they also had to go to the toilet. laughing
      1. dgonni
        dgonni 10 December 2019 17: 44
        0
        At 42 at a time since the end of 43 years, you could just get into the penalties at 44, in principle, looked through your fingers. Well, this is according to grandfather's stories.
        1. Doliva63
          Doliva63 10 December 2019 18: 02
          0
          Quote: dgonni
          At 42 at a time since the end of 43 years, you could just get into the penalties at 44, in principle, looked through your fingers. Well, this is according to grandfather's stories.

          Good. For the whole, there could be troubles, but for the half-developed, at least in half - no longer. My father fought from the 43rd, they treated the leaflets quite easily. And the staffs were gone.
  22. Fraracol_2
    Fraracol_2 10 December 2019 19: 16
    +1
    Something article is somehow "blurry", many general phrases, little specifics. The name is loud, but I read it and didn't really know anything about this operation.
  23. Million
    Million 11 December 2019 08: 09
    -1
    Alexey Isaev about the film "Rzhev"

    Alexey Isaev, by some accident of the same nationality with the authors of this "kinA"
  24. Dmitry Mariupolsky
    Dmitry Mariupolsky 11 December 2019 08: 36
    0
    I read for a long time that before the operation Mars, our "leaked" to the Germans information about its beginning, if I am not mistaken through A. Heine. About 100 thousand were killed. Zhukov could not understand what was the matter, because he himself was not in the know. But by doing so, we pulled the Germans away from Stalingrad. The price, of course, is terrible, but apparently they thought that it was worth paying so that the Germans would not cut the Volga. And they were not mistaken.
  25. Rostislav Bely
    Rostislav Bely 11 December 2019 17: 57
    -1
    There is some interesting material about the "pervetin" blitzkrieg ...
  26. The comment was deleted.
  27. alstr
    alstr 12 December 2019 16: 58
    0
    Quote: Olgovich
    Quote: victor50
    It is unclear then why my grandfather, born in 1893, had 4 classes, and grandmother, born in 1901, had 1 grade. Who was not interested in their studies? The Bolsheviks, probably?

    Naturally: with them, TEN YEARS, NONE of the schools were built.
    FOUR THOUSANDs were introduced before them.

    Can you count? How many children did not go to school?


    As if not true:
    "In the 1927-28 academic year, the number of educational institutions increased by 1913% compared to 10, and the number of students increased by 43%. If in the 1922-23 academic year there were about 61,6 thousand schools on the territory of the RSFSR, then in 1928/29 academic year - their number reached 85,3 thousand. "
    Those. schools were built and opened.

    And most were 7 years old.
    And the student is also not true about the number. A little more than 7 million in 1914 and almost 10 million in 27 (within the borders of the USSR up to 39 years).

    At the same time, it is clear that there were enough problems in schools.
  28. Unknown
    Unknown 12 December 2019 21: 25
    0
    if you carefully read the writer Kondratiev, then his story, Shura, published in 1979, also about fights under the Rzhev, is very different from the story, atone with blood, published in 1991, although there are similar stories. so when was the kondratyev sincere?
  29. Reklastik
    Reklastik 13 December 2019 21: 01
    0
    World War II as a whole was a war of engines, maneuverable, based on tank strikes and quick breakthroughs.
    - and the same Isaev writes in "Berlin 45th ..." that the infantry fought anyway, despite the statements about "the war of engines".
  30. Sergelis
    Sergelis 18 December 2019 14: 22
    0
    This is heartburn.
    you just need to understand what was there.
    I have a friend from those areas where skeletons were raised above the roof even in the 2000s. And both those and others. Although the skeletons do not care
  31. Nikolai Korovin
    Nikolai Korovin 1 January 2020 23: 50
    0
    The author claims that the battles near Rzhev did not matter for the Soviet-German front as a whole. The claim appears to be somewhat dubious. No wonder Zhukov, after finishing the preparation of "Uranus", left for Rzhev, without waiting for the start of the offensive. The success of Uranus was based on the weakness of the Romanian and Italian forces supporting the flanks of the 6th Army. If the Germans were able to transfer any significant forces from the central sector of the front, the success of "Uranus" could be questionable. Everything was hanging by a thread anyway. But this is precisely what the Germans did not succeed in - thanks to the active actions of the Red Army in the Rzhev region, which fettered the troops occupied there. The southeastern front of the Wehrmacht did not receive reinforcements from the central sector, which was of paramount importance. Of course, all the same, the German command threw everything that it found at hand to the deblockade of the 6th Army, but still it was not enough.
  32. RusGr
    RusGr 10 January 2022 12: 53
    0
    Why did the Soviet command not go into deep defensiveness, erecting powerful fortified lines in the Rzhev region, and all the time threw the regiments into senseless attacks