Military Review

Unified "Yars" and the expediency of "Barguzin"

135

Means BZHRK "Well done"


In 2017-2018 it became known that the Russian defense industry has stopped work on the creation of a promising combat railway missile complex (BZHRK) "Barguzin" for the strategic missile forces. However, the topic of rocket trains is still of interest and attention. In recent weeks, it has again become relevant in connection with curious messages published by RIA. News.

Unified rocket


Throughout the development period of the Barguzin BZHRK, its technical features remained unknown. At the end of 2014, domestic media reported that the railway-based complex was being built on the basis of the existing Yars RS-24 missile. However, officials have not confirmed this information.

On November 14, RIA Novosti published a curious statement by the General Designer of the Moscow Institute of Heat Engineering (MIT), which was developing the Barguzin. Academician of the Russian Academy of Sciences Yuri Solomonov said that his organization has created a unified Yars complex with wide basing capabilities.

A single ballistic missile of this type can be used with a silo launcher (silo), on a moving soil complex (PGRK), or as part of the BZHRK. In addition, according to individual solutions and components, this version of the Yarsa is unified with the Bulava submarine complex.

This information can be considered an indirect confirmation of reports on the development of Barguzin based on the Yars complex. However, at the moment, such information is no longer of particular importance. The development of a new BZHRK was suspended in favor of projects with a higher priority. Due to various factors, the future of Yars missiles in the context of missile trains has become hazy.

Question of expediency


The statement of Y. Solomonov became the reason for the resumption of disputes on the need for the BZHRK in the arsenals of the Russian Strategic Missile Forces. Opinions on this subject are expressed at different levels. So, on December 5, RIA Novosti published statements by the head of the Center for International Security, IMEMO RAS, Academician Alexei Arbatov.


PGRK "Yars" on the march

The academician sees in the statements of Yu. Solomonov a signal about the possible resumption of the development of Barguzin. At the same time, the need to create a new BZHRK remains in doubt. A. Arbatov recalled that such a technique has both pros and cons, and this must be taken into account when making decisions.

The academician called the improved camouflage capabilities a positive feature of the BZHRK. The train with missiles on board is almost no different from the freight train. On the other hand, the train is tied to patrol routes - "you can see by rail what will go." Train-based locations are extremely vulnerable, and the withdrawal of complexes from the impact can be difficult. Also, the possibility of sabotage at such facilities is not ruled out.

In the context of mobility, according to A. Arbatov, BZHRK inferior to PGRK on wheeled chassis. The latter do not need railways or bridges. Their patrol routes are almost unpredictable.

Also, the academician drew attention to the issue of economic feasibility. The unified PC-24 “Yars” has three variants of basing - but will there be enough money to realize all these possibilities?

In the context of developing new Russian weapons, A. Arbatov drew attention to foreign experience. So, in the composition of the US strategic nuclear forces there is only one ground-based missile system using silos. To replace it, another similar pattern is created. The expansion of the range of missile systems observed in our country is not used in the USA.

No reason to argue


Until 2017-18, when it became known about the suspension of work on Barguzin, the topic of creating a new BZHRK was especially popular and there was active debate around it. News about the freezing of the project led to a reduction in such activity. Statements by Yu. Solomonov about the existence of a unified Yars and the fundamental possibility of creating a rocket train again led to well-known results.


Yars rocket launch

The topic is discussed at all levels, up to general designers and academicians. However, such discussions appear to be premature so far. Two years ago, the military and political leadership of Russia ordered to stop work on the Barguzin BZHRK in favor of other projects with a higher priority.

The first reports of the closure of the Barguzin project mentioned the economic reasons for such a decision. Details appeared later. The development of the BZHRK and the new PGRK was stopped in order to free up resources for the creation of the Avangard complex, which is of particular importance for the Strategic Missile Forces and for defense capability.

In the future, “Barguzin” was still remembered, but now it was not considered as a real complex that could be put into service in the coming years. The attention of the Strategic Missile Forces and the Ministry of Defense as a whole is focused on other missile systems.

Against this background, the latest statements by Yu. Solomonov look like a simple statement of fact. Developing the existing project and the ICBM line as a whole, MIT developed a unified version of the Yars missile for use on different platforms. The mine and mobile execution of the complex is already actively used by the troops, while the railway was abandoned. Perhaps already completely.

What could be the complex


According to known data, MIT began the development of the Barguzin BZHRK in 2012 and continued until the 2017. Officials subsequently disclosed some information, but most of the data came from anonymous media sources. All this made it possible to get the big picture, but how real it turned out is not known.

It was assumed that in general architecture the new Barguzin would be similar to the older Molodets complex. It could be carried out in the form of a train of several wagons with launchers, security equipment, command posts, living quarters, etc. Tactical and technical characteristics until a certain time remained unclear.


The Sarmat missile is the main reason for the rejection of the Barguzin

In 2014, the Russian press reported that Yars-type ICBMs or its modifications would be used as part of Barguzin. This allowed us to draw a number of important conclusions. First of all, it was about the unification of several missile systems of the Strategic Missile Forces by a key element. By that time, the PC-24 were already on duty at the silos and at the PGRK. In the future, they were to be supplemented by ICBMs on trains.

The length of the Yars rocket does not exceed 22-23 m, the launch weight is less than 50 tons. A modern rocket is more than two times lighter than the Molodets RT-23 UTX product, which has serious advantages. A missile launcher with such parameters fits into the limitations of rolling stock. In particular, there is no need to create a special car with an increased number of wheelsets. Path requirements are also reduced, which increases available patrol areas.

BZHRK on the basis of "Yars" could be favorably distinguished from the "Good" higher operational characteristics and greater secrecy. Such a complex could be a good and convenient addition to other means of the Strategic Missile Forces.

In the autumn of 2016, it was reported that missile throw tests for the Barguzin BZHRK were conducted at the Plesetsk training ground. Over the next months, this kind of news was not received, and in December the 2017 press announced the cessation of work. Later, the reasons for the closure of the project became known.

A future without trains


The general plans of the Ministry of Defense and the Strategic Missile Forces command to develop strategic weapons are well known. The main ICBM of troops is gradually becoming the RS-24 "Yars" in two versions - for mines and for moving soil complexes. In the near future there will be a new heavy rocket mine-based RS-28 “Sarmat”. The presence of two modern models will allow for a major modernization of the Strategic Missile Forces and increase their potential.

The existing plans do not have a place to develop and put on duty missile systems based on trains. Previously, such systems were considered necessary, which at one time led to the launch of the Barguzin project. Later it was abandoned in favor of more relevant developments. Returning to the creation of the BZHRK, as far as is known, is not planned.

However, according to the results of incomplete work on the subject of “Barguzin”, MIT and other enterprises gained some experience in creating a modern BZHRK under the latest model missile. If necessary, this experience can be implemented in a new project if the command decides to resume work.
Author:
Photos used:
Russian Ministry of Defense / mil.ru, Wikimedia Commons
135 comments
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  1. mark1
    mark1 8 December 2019 06: 58
    +1
    But in the order of amateurish delirium;
    -to give PGRK the possibility of moving along railways (at one time they invented a lot of adaptations, I think there will be no problems).
    - to get, say, a regiment onto the rails, it is closed by casings imitating at least refrigerators, at least something else, the engine and the little engine clings to it and quietly at night to a new position area in a couple of thousand kilometers.
    In which case, you can shoot off the rails. wassat
    1. prapor55
      prapor55 8 December 2019 07: 41
      +7
      If by chance this plan is read by Medvedev, I think he will seize on it. The construction of the cosmodrome compared to your proposal is simply pampering.
      1. mark1
        mark1 8 December 2019 07: 51
        0
        I am for criticism, but constructive. Justify.
        1. prapor55
          prapor55 8 December 2019 08: 13
          +2
          Unfortunately, in this format this is not possible. If I am correct, then you are related to the railway exclusively as a passenger. hi
          1. mark1
            mark1 8 December 2019 08: 19
            +1
            So yes - as a passenger, and then rarely. But I rely on the historical facts of the development, so if you thesis straighten my brains, I will not be offended. hi
            1. prapor55
              prapor55 8 December 2019 08: 23
              +1
              You just need to look at the wheelset, and then consider the technical solution for switching to wheels. The weight of an empty gondola car is 23 tons. hi
              1. prapor55
                prapor55 8 December 2019 08: 23
                0
                Experiments with UAZ vehicles do not count.
                1. user3574
                  user3574 8 December 2019 12: 29
                  +1
                  Their patrol routes are almost unpredictable.

                  Doooo!



                  Las Vegas image from TerraSAR-X radar reconnaissance satellite.
                  1. user3574
                    user3574 8 December 2019 12: 30
                    +2
                    The main ICBM of troops is gradually becoming the RS-24 “Yars” in two versions - for mines and for moving soil complexes.

                    Here is an interesting piece of information from Makeev Center:





                    In case of equipping anti-missiles with multi-element warheads (Multi-Object Kill Vehicle), a missile with an throwing mass of 4,3 tons (ICBM Stiletto) will be required, so that with probability 0,5 deliver warheads to the US territory with a total mass of 1320 kg.

                    And if the missile is equipped with neutron warheads, the same missile (ICBM Stiletto) will be able to deliver warheads to the US territory with a total mass of only 800 kg.

                    That is, light-class missiles (Yars, Mace) are simply useless.

                    And mine rockets are extremely vulnerable to a first strike, since their coordinates are known in advance.

                    SOURCE: http://federalbook.ru/projects/bezopasnost/2.html

                    Directions for improving strategic nuclear forces in the context of missile defense development
                    http://federalbook.ru/files/BEZOPASNOST/soderghanie/NB_2/NB2-2015-Degtyar'.pdf
                2. mark1
                  mark1 8 December 2019 13: 14
                  0
                  Experiments with UAZ vehicles do not count.

                  What about tanks? Including German
              2. mark1
                mark1 8 December 2019 08: 40
                0
                The wheelset, I believe, will be inside the PGRK gauge. It is set along the railroad tracks of the PGRK (rails inside), it rises on its own jacks (it has it), and under it along the axles (frame) some (railroad) bogies roll (like wagons for example) . PGRK is lowered, suppose the trolleys are secured to a frame. Auto clutch and brakes are the food of designers. So far I do not see anything impossible with my passenger gaze. I’m sure you can come up with a better one.
                1. prapor55
                  prapor55 8 December 2019 08: 50
                  +2
                  The weight of one truck of a freight car is 5 tons; they need at least two; how will you level the jacks on the embankment? Well, for information, changing a truck carriage takes about 10 minutes with two specialists who even heard about labor protection. I can’t even imagine how to change the carts as part of a train with non-split sections. Or will we keep the APU with God's help?
                  1. mark1
                    mark1 8 December 2019 09: 03
                    +1
                    Quote: prapor55
                    How will you level the jacks on the embankment?

                    Outriggers will align themselves, but in general, all operations are carried out at special sites (they are not very expensive), you don’t know.
                    Quote: prapor55
                    I can’t even imagine how to change the carts as part of a train with non-split sections.

                    Yes, it’s quite disconnected, - I wrote.
                    You probably do not quite understand. The idea is not that we launch PGRK directly from the rails into the open field like tanks (of course, you need to prepare the platforms), but that maneuver for several thousand km with soil complexes is possible (i.e., the properties of the BZHRK are partially acquired). And shooting and BZHRK and PGRK so it is conducted from prepared positions and on the move only in the most extreme case.
                    1. prapor55
                      prapor55 8 December 2019 09: 17
                      +2
                      Carts change only on special tracks, jacks stand on aligned plates, so that there would be no disaster. I'm not a rocket launcher but to disengage the APU?!? I did not see this even during the three-year regulation in the conditions of the 10th division, where there were all the conditions, unlike our 36, which stood in the open field. hi
                      1. mark1
                        mark1 8 December 2019 09: 41
                        0
                        Quote: prapor55
                        Carts change only on special tracks, jacks are on level plates, so there would be no disaster

                        Duck, we have no contradictions!
                        Quote: prapor55
                        I'm not a rocket launcher but to disengage the APU?!?

                        Now I don’t understand (if you are talking about PU), why unhook it?
                      2. prapor55
                        prapor55 8 December 2019 10: 00
                        0
                        APU consists of 3 units to push everything into one car does not work out in any way.
                      3. mark1
                        mark1 8 December 2019 10: 14
                        0
                        I have a lasting impression. what are we talking about different things
                      4. Arthur 85
                        Arthur 85 8 December 2019 11: 44
                        0
                        Well, yes, if a rocket is placed in a truck (one), it is completely unclear what prevents it from getting into a 60-ton carriage. I saw with my own eyes the inscription on the cars: 68 tons. And it’s even scary to say 120 tons, where there are 4 trolleys under the car.
                2. Pashhenko Nikolay
                  Pashhenko Nikolay 8 December 2019 10: 39
                  +2
                  Stop fantasizing. There is still such a parameter as the minimum radius of fitting into the curve and the approximation size of the buildings. How does the mobile complex fit into this?
    2. SVD68
      SVD68 8 December 2019 09: 39
      0
      Traffic on the railway is carried out according to the schedule (schedule). If regular bzhrk can be integrated into the schedule under the guise of freight trains, then how to integrate the sahr trains that appear out of nowhere? Transfer Railways under the complete control of the military?
      1. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 8 December 2019 11: 24
        +4
        Quote: SVD68
        Transfer Railways under the complete control of the military?

        And where will Russian Railways go if the "war" begins ?!
        1. SVD68
          SVD68 8 December 2019 23: 28
          +1
          Quote: Nikolaevich I

          And where will Russian Railways go if the "war" begins ?!

          So it is necessary before the war begins. After the start, you need to launch rockets.
      2. dauria
        dauria 8 December 2019 23: 07
        -1
        If regular bzhrk can be built into the schedule under the guise of freight trains


        Why is everyone clinging to "disguise"? She is not at all the main thing in this undertaking.
        Even if the train has a personal guarded branch 50 km long, this will allow it to be taken out from under the strike. Even if the whole world knows about this branch and this composition. Fill all 50 km with nuclear bombs after 3 km? Great exchange.
        1. SVD68
          SVD68 8 December 2019 23: 29
          0
          Quote: dauria

          Even if the train has a personal guarded branch 50 km long, this will allow it to be taken out from under the strike. Even if the whole world knows about this branch and this composition. Fill all 50 km with nuclear bombs after 3 km? Great exchange.

          PGRK in this sense is simpler and more efficient.
    3. Den717
      Den717 8 December 2019 11: 57
      0
      Quote: mark1
      -start, say, a regiment on rails, closed by casings-simulators of at least refrigerators

      Mowing under the refrigerator will not work in terms of overall and weight parameters. You will still have to strengthen / increase the number of carriages. And the gauge does not fit into the height of the railway. The game is not worth the candle. The wheeled chassis is superfluous anyway. Anyway, all this reasoning about "do-do not" BZHRK - fortune-telling on the coffee grounds. So they told us the truth about the intentions ?! wassat
    4. Gas smoke protector
      Gas smoke protector 8 December 2019 13: 08
      +1
      Have you ever seen a PGRK? No? I looked at them for nearly 30 years. Sorry, you’ve carried such nonsense now that I don’t even know if I can fall asleep today ...
    5. svd-xnumx
      svd-xnumx 8 December 2019 18: 11
      0
      a steam locomotive clings to it and little by little at night to a new position area in a couple of thousand km
      Until the last contracts with fascington were covered. This is not realistic. According to the contract, even PGRKs are on duty only in a certain area. Therefore, they refused from the railway complex (probably) that it is necessary to inform the "partners" about the route. But about getting on the "rails" to put some kind of "Iskander" capable of flying to Brussels is worth considering.
    6. AAK
      AAK 8 December 2019 19: 04
      +3
      Colleague, the main problem is how you will drive an almost 20-meter PGRK onto a railway platform, weighing 60-80 tons with a rocket, where will you take such ramps? Where do you put them? If in a clean field - immediately, such a place will be taken into account, if in the back streets of freight or marshalling yards - then imagine a picture of 5-6 PGRK passing through the city / village (even at late night), they will not fit into the streets, and all the secrecy with a burgundy hat will be covered ... so that you have correctly noted, it is in the order of amateurish delirium ...
      1. bk0010
        bk0010 8 December 2019 20: 02
        0
        It’s not a question: to make a self-propelled ramp as part of the PGRK on the basis of the same machine that carries the rocket. The question is how to fix this self-propelled ramp onto the car and remove it in a clean field. No, you can put it on the rails, lift it on jacks above the train, the train pulls under it, but how exactly to position the car? The second option is special platforms that provide loading of PGRK, but this is worse, since it reveals the purpose of the train, even if these cars are masked. But the main thing is why: the PGRK itself knows how to ride, but wherever it goes and should not.
  2. VLADIMIR VLADIVOSTOK
    VLADIMIR VLADIVOSTOK 8 December 2019 07: 34
    -5
    It is better for the fathers of the people to rest in Cyprus or the Seychelles. Why waste money? Maybe leave two Boreas? One at the pier, the other on duty. After all, missiles will be enough to incinerate America. Brad, just bureaucrats do not want to share money. There would be no one to dispossess them.
  3. svp67
    svp67 8 December 2019 07: 56
    +9
    In 2017-2018 it became known that the Russian defense industry has stopped work on the creation of a promising combat railway missile complex (BZHRK) "Barguzin" for the strategic missile forces.
    All the same, I think that SUSPENDED
    In the context of mobility, according to A. Arbatov, BZHRK inferior to PGRK on wheeled chassis. The latter do not need railways or bridges.
    Is it like "bridges don't need"? Are they, that the "holy spirit" is carried through rivers, canals, ditches, ravines? If they do not overcome them in the process of patrolling, then this greatly narrows the area itself, which means it makes them more vulnerable.
    What could be the complex
    I believe that in the light of past events, namely, with the termination of the INF Treaty, it would be possible to make this "armored train" more universal, having a single KP car and support wagons, but combat wagons with different "stuffing", including both "Yars" and and medium-range missiles.
  4. U-58
    U-58 8 December 2019 09: 14
    +3
    Actually, what is the "greater relevance" of other developments?
    Most likely, the impossibility of an endless extension of the warranty period of the Voivode and UR-100.
    How many do not govern, old age takes its toll ..
    The second argument of relevance is even more significant (in peacetime): finance.
    More precisely, their absence.
    The Ministry of Defense, with all the trillion generosity of its financing, cannot fit all the projects into the Procrustean bed of the allocated budget.
    Barguzin simply has nothing to pay.
    Therefore, I hope that for now, we mourn.
    Although I personally consider the idea of ​​BZHRK much more relevant than the same Sarmatian.
    Each silos registered with the enemy.
    And since we have the concept of a retaliatory strike, but not a preventive one, the chances of destroying the Sarmatians in the mines and at the autonomous area are very high.
    Whether it's a train!
    Launch a rocket from Kostroma, Perm, Tomsk, Bologov, Uryupinsk, Zima, Volochaevka, Feodosia, Vorkuta, finally from the Paveletsky station.
    Then catch this rocket ....
    No four-defense missile defense will help ..
    1. prapor55
      prapor55 8 December 2019 09: 25
      0
      Trains could still go extending the life of missiles? I think that this problem could be solved, how much is the Soviet missiles at the moment on the database? The assassination of the BZHRK is entirely the fault of the current commander in chief. soldier
    2. knn54
      knn54 8 December 2019 10: 53
      0
      -Satellite intelligence has become much more advanced.
      -The level of terrorist threat has increased. Even Barguzin has been "assassinated" once or twice.
      -And where to do it. Many enterprises either do not exist or have passed into private hands.
      The good news is that there is a backlog.
    3. hydrox
      hydrox 8 December 2019 10: 55
      +4
      By the way, just the concept of our counter-preemptive strike, i.e. we have 20-30 minutes free to choose the strike of unacceptable damage, or the strike of tactical power (for Europe and NATO).
      Let me remind you: a counter-preemptive strike can be delivered as a response even in the case of a massive use of conventional (non-nuclear character) weapons BEFORE CROSSING by carriers of the Russian state border.
    4. KCA
      KCA 8 December 2019 11: 03
      +2
      The silos are registered, but there is a flight time for the missiles, even if the RSD and RMD are deployed in Europe they will be able to give the launch order, if they launch 1-2 missiles, they can chew snot, communicate by phone, check / double-check, but with a mass launch they will solve everything quickly, then the silos are designed for a nuclear explosion, in order to guarantee failure it is necessary to directly hit the warhead in the lid, preferably with a recess, and this is a very difficult task
      1. Fan-fan
        Fan-fan 8 December 2019 16: 45
        -2
        How does the warhead go deep into the lid?
        1. KCA
          KCA 8 December 2019 18: 24
          +2
          It’s difficult to dig into the ground in the immediate vicinity of the mine, or generally into the mine’s cover, like a concrete bomb, and it will require special BBs, 1-2 pieces, maybe they will, to destroy the CP bunker in Moscow and the ZKP, I don’t know where it is , and conventional warheads will fly to the silos with detonation at an altitude of 400 meters, the mines are just designed to withstand such an explosion
        2. Alex Nevs
          Alex Nevs 8 December 2019 18: 24
          +1
          She flies with an opener laughing
    5. Den717
      Den717 8 December 2019 12: 09
      0
      Quote: U-58
      Each silos registered with the enemy.

      Well taken into account, and then? The Sarmatians will receive the "launch" command during the flight of the "minutemans", and enemy missiles will fall into empty silos. But 18 thousand km for 000 tons of combat load is more than impressive. The kilometer radius of safety of the mine from ground-based DRGs is quite capable of providing. I do not see any tangible advantages of BZHRK. Here is the RIAC to put on the railway, a thought, I think, worthwhile. And technologically everything is quite achievable, and there are no problems with the timetables, but with an agreement on the liberation of the European part (there are such thoughts in our proposals to the EU) from the INF, they can be assembled in the east of the country, but if necessary, in a couple of days you can assemble a strike group into anywhere in Russia - from the Kola Peninsula to the Crimea.
      1. U-58
        U-58 8 December 2019 15: 04
        +1
        Do you think that the nuclear war will go like this: they pressed the buttons, after 10 minutes we pressed, and after 40 minutes the war ended?
        No way.
        It will go about 72-100 hours.
        And silos will be the main goal.
        But trains have the opportunity to maneuver over these three or four days, save themselves and put OUR bold point in the war
        1. Den717
          Den717 8 December 2019 15: 34
          -4
          Quote: U-58
          It will go about 72-100 hours.

          Whoever has time to conduct a massive nuclear attack will win. The rest of the time, the neighbors will eat the still warm corpse. A neighbor sang about 100 hours to you? Ali are you a watchman in the General Operations Department of the General Staff?
          1. U-58
            U-58 8 December 2019 16: 43
            +5
            I earn extra money.
            So, you are the Commander-in-Chief.
            They dealt a retaliation shock.
            After 10-12 hours, intelligence reports that a whole division of the Minutemans with a whole general at the head survived in North Dakota.
            Write, how are you going to destroy this division?
            After all, the entire arsenal is spent.
            A day later, the remnants of your reconnaissance managed to convey that the object "Crystal Peak", contrary to expectations, was not completely destroyed.
            And from there commands to the submarines about the next strike on the territory of your country.
            What will you do in this situation?
            You finished your war in the first 40 minutes! ..
            1. Den717
              Den717 8 December 2019 17: 36
              -6
              Quote: U-58
              After 10-12 hours, intelligence reports that a whole division of the Minutemans with a whole general at the head survived in North Dakota.
              Write, how are you going to destroy this division?

              You earn extra money in GS. Go to Gerasimov and ask. You will know first hand. And logically, Sarmat will become the main strike force and will be used in conditions of the least risk of defeat by the enemy, i.e. at a time when everything that could threaten him is still in flight. The reserve will be undetected underwater assets. After the first strike, both sides will have so many wounded and half-dead that the remaining forces of the economies of the participating countries will leave for them both to remove and bury the corpses. IMHO
              1. U-58
                U-58 8 December 2019 17: 56
                +3
                There will be no one to save the wounded and the half-dead.
                To bury the dead, especially.
                And you, Aspadin President, Comrade Commander-in-chief, they left the answer ....
                1. Den717
                  Den717 8 December 2019 19: 48
                  0
                  Quote: U-58
                  And you, Aspadin President, Comrade Commander-in-chief, they left the answer ....

                  Read the previously written again, there is about it.
            2. bk0010
              bk0010 8 December 2019 20: 05
              0
              Yes, and do not care. Well, they will fry the ruins again.
          2. Fan-fan
            Fan-fan 8 December 2019 16: 49
            -2
            You guys are both wrong. It’s a laugh to say that a war will last no more than 100 hours. Before the Second World War, they also called the dates, but the reality turned out to be such that no one even guessed close.
            1. U-58
              U-58 8 December 2019 17: 49
              +2
              Yes, not 100 hours.
              Tovarisch, my counterpart, believes that the buttons are pressed and the FSO.
              That is, we started and finished.
              I tried to show him that in a full-blown conflict, the arsenals would be used up (if you fight in a Posuvorian way, rather than Chapaev's way) in 3-3,5 days, not earlier.
              We will not discuss all tactics and strategy of war here)))))
              1. Fan-fan
                Fan-fan 8 December 2019 18: 35
                -2
                Of course, there is no way to discuss the strategy, but allot 100 hours for the war, only Baron Munchausen could.
                Yes, and stupid ideas about the war among local commentators, the war for them is just a button to reap, well, cranks. They think that after the use of nuclear weapons the war ends, as if you can’t fight with non-nuclear weapons.
              2. bk0010
                bk0010 8 December 2019 20: 07
                -2
                Sorry, but on both sides now there are not 30-40 thousand charges, but only about 1.5 thousand. There are stupidly more goals. So still 40 minutes, not 3 days.
                1. U-58
                  U-58 9 December 2019 06: 42
                  +1
                  Both, or rather, both sides, have 1,5 thousand.
                  And ishsho France, England, China, Pakistan, India, Israel, Iran, completely popular Korea, Brazil, Japan with its crazy supply of plutonium and quite a flying rocket ....
                  And who is good and who is bad, plan for yourself ..
    6. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 8 December 2019 12: 13
      +4
      There will be our objections to your statements ... After all, earlier, one of the main arguments in favor of the invulnerability of the BZHRK was the opinion that this missile system would “easily” get lost among the numerous railway trains on an extensive railway network on the vast territory of the country ... But ... "everything flows ... everything changes"! BZHRK "Molodets" was created in the USSR ... is it necessary to "hide" the difference between the territories of the USSR and the Russian Federation? Now about the "refrigerators" ... how many are left, if it was said somehow that the production of refrigerators has been discontinued? But the BZHRK was "disguised" as refrigerators! In addition, no matter how the cars of the complex were disguised as "civilian", their weight exceeded ordinary cars! It was then that the BZHRK could be caught ... On the supposed "critical" directions on the railway track, sensors are installed with the transmission of signals to the satellite, although this is not necessary ... reconnaissance satellites with laser scanners that capture ground vibration may appear in the place of passage of the BZHRK. And the "abundance" of guest workers? While the use of 20-foot and 40-foot containers is, perhaps, worth thinking about ... Moreover, containers can be transported by railway trains, trucks, ships ... But that's another story!
      1. g1v2
        g1v2 8 December 2019 14: 14
        0
        And you can do it even easier. The train cannot teleport. To deliver a program that will track the location of the train once detected through civilian satellites. Once it is determined by indirect data or using conventional intelligence, mark it with a marker, and then simply track it automatically. He’s not going anywhere from the rails. In fact, it’s like a strategic submarine, only it can’t go to the depths and goes along the same routes.
      2. U-58
        U-58 8 December 2019 15: 13
        +1
        You can disguise yourself as passenger cars, mineral fertilizers, but at least flour ....
        A lot of cargoes are transported a lot.
        But, even if the train is calculated today and here, what does it give the enemy?
        After all, in 5 minutes he will be in a different place with a coordinate spread of 10 km.
        In order for the train to survive, this is enough.
        As for the sabotage threat, let it be engaged in military counterintelligence and other bodies.
        In war as in war ..
        1. Nikolaevich I
          Nikolaevich I 8 December 2019 16: 04
          0
          Quote: U-58
          You can disguise as passenger cars

          Yeah ... and instead of wagon windows - color LCD monitors, where on the Russo screen the passenger will continuously drink vodka and tea with lemon ... lol
          Quote: U-58
          A lot of cargoes are transported a lot.

          Each type of wagon (platform) has its own passport "carrying capacity", as well as auto.trucks, and is designed for certain cargo. Transportation of non-standard cargo is carried out in certain cases, subject to certain conditions.
          Quote: U-58
          As for the sabotage threat, let it be engaged in military counterintelligence and other bodies.
          German "bodies" during the Second World War were also engaged in partisans, but the trains still "flew downhill" ...
          Quote: U-58
          After all, in 5 minutes he will be in a different place with a coordinate spread of 10 km.

          Well, yes ... and further 10 km it will not go anywhere ... the rails will be blown up ...
          1. U-58
            U-58 8 December 2019 16: 50
            0
            The rails? Yes to hell with them.
            If only the materiel was ready for battle.
            And weakly necromancers bombard the Trans-Siberian with bombs every at least 10 km?)))))
            1. bk0010
              bk0010 8 December 2019 20: 09
              -3
              Ammunition is launched along the Trans-Siberian Railway - and there is no need to bomb every 10 km.
          2. Fan-fan
            Fan-fan 8 December 2019 17: 05
            -1
            The length of Russian railways is 86000 km and blowing them up after 10 km is not enough saboteurs. By the way, why blast the railway, for what purpose? Well, they will blow up the road, what's the point of this, saboteurs think that the BZHRK will fall downhill? They will have to explode at the same time all over the country in order to catch by surprise. Nonsense all this.
            1. U-58
              U-58 8 December 2019 18: 05
              0
              So I for sho?
            2. Nikolaevich I
              Nikolaevich I 9 December 2019 01: 11
              +1
              Quote: Fan-Fan
              All this nonsense.

              I agree! To mention the "length" of railways in order to calculate the required number of saboteurs from the calculation: one for every 10 km is nonsense! But I didn't say this nonsense! There are methods and means of reconnaissance that allow, if not always guaranteed to detect the BZHRK itself, then, with a high degree of probability, the positional areas of the deployment (passage) of railway missile systems. It is not necessary to derail the BZHRK! It is enough to hold it a little in the "location" with the already known coordinates ... to enter these coordinates "where you need to" ... wink
      3. U-58
        U-58 9 December 2019 06: 26
        +1
        No one bothers to drive false trains with concrete blocks inside the cars.
        That's the mass will be ..
        The sensors will go crazy, transmitting data on "heavy" compounds ...
        A special surprise for the enemy will be the moment when the false train turns out to be real.
        Yes, expensive.
        But this is the defense of the country ...
    7. PSih2097
      PSih2097 8 December 2019 21: 16
      0
      Quote: U-58
      Each silos registered with the enemy.

      All PGRK are also registered and God forbid to go beyond a certain area ...
  5. 2 Level Advisor
    2 Level Advisor 8 December 2019 09: 15
    +1
    "The length of the Yars rocket does not exceed 22-23 m, the launch weight is less than 50 tons. The modern rocket is more than two times lighter than the RT-23 UTTKh product of the Molodets complex."

    Author! RT-23 Well done, this can be said to be an analogue of "Satan" on rails ... and the fact that Yars is only 2 times lighter than such a rocket is a very dubious merit ... Molodets has 10 blocks, Yars has 3 ...
    1. antivirus
      antivirus 8 December 2019 09: 35
      +1
      I am for - "PISETS" or "Polar Fox", instead of Barguzin, Yars
    2. Fan-fan
      Fan-fan 8 December 2019 17: 07
      -1
      This means 6 wagons with three warheads each, for a total of 18 warheads - also not bad.
  6. water
    water 8 December 2019 09: 28
    +2
    The main advantage of the BRD was the ability to shoot from any point where the train stops, since the entire railway was jammed in coordinates, while car complexes could shoot from certain points, with the development of satellite navigation, the BRD lost these advantages, and most likely the abandonment they are partially justified, except for the case if satellite navigation is out of order, of course you can play it safe with the availability of funds.
    1. Gas smoke protector
      Gas smoke protector 8 December 2019 13: 13
      +1
      You are wrong. PGRK is able to carry out a combat mission from the MBP site.
    2. Gas smoke protector
      Gas smoke protector 8 December 2019 19: 14
      -1
      By the way, what is BRZD?
      1. PSih2097
        PSih2097 8 December 2019 21: 26
        0
        Quote: Gas smoke protector
        By the way, what is BRZD?

        probably on the principle of SLBM "Sineva" - BRZD "Scalpel", so it was in the mine version, as well as "Voevoda" Kh.Z in short ...
        1. Gas smoke protector
          Gas smoke protector 9 December 2019 13: 01
          +1
          I don’t know who and when invented it, but in the Strategic Missile Forces there were only BZHRK, which concerns railway complexes.
      2. U-58
        U-58 9 December 2019 06: 19
        0
        BRZD - military missile railway complex
        1. Gas smoke protector
          Gas smoke protector 9 December 2019 13: 03
          +1
          Now attention: B-combat, R-missile, F-railway, D -...... Complex? Not? Once again I affirm: BZHRK and no other way !!!!! Combat Railway Missile Complex !!!!
          1. U-58
            U-58 10 December 2019 03: 50
            0
            By the way, yes.
            It is described since on TV at that moment they discussed the demolition of the local railway and the position of Russian Railways.
            External influence))))))
    3. The comment was deleted.
  7. Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 8 December 2019 09: 45
    +2
    Based on the railway provides much greater secrecy than soil complexes. At least due to the tunnels. Do not discount a lot of covered depots, of which I think hundreds. So the cessation of development if not a crime, then a serious mistake.
    1. Gas smoke protector
      Gas smoke protector 8 December 2019 13: 14
      +2
      What can he do in the tunnel? No depot is able to accept the whole composition. Cars are being repaired in the depot, not trains and trains.
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 8 December 2019 13: 38
        +2
        Why repair, drive, even if in parts, wait for the satellite window, send it further and backwards .. There are sidings in the tunnels, the second track is finally, for traffic police, you can squeeze a little traffic.
        Given that the length of modern passenger trains exceeds 400 m, it is allowed to build a depot with half of the train set up on one track, provided that the number of tracks should not be more than four.
        By the way, here is the link:
        https://ondebeherner.ucoz.ru/news/ustrojstva_vagonnogo_khozjajstva_na_passazhirskikh_tekhnicheskikh_stancijakh_vagonomoechnye_mashiny/2016-01-31-163
        1. Fan-fan
          Fan-fan 8 December 2019 18: 41
          0
          You can set up the simplest hangars and hide trains there during the day and overtake them at night. Here they say about disguise, but what prevents the car from being made as a passenger car with windows and curtains.
        2. Gas smoke protector
          Gas smoke protector 8 December 2019 19: 13
          +2
          You know, in the Strategic Missile Forces there is such a concept as "combat readiness." There the time goes by seconds. Your proposals with numerous maneuvers, removal from readiness, setting on readiness steal those very precious seconds and nullify all your fantasies. I served in the Strategic Missile Forces, now I work on the railway, I know what I'm talking about. Not a single depot can accommodate the entire train. Or I don’t know something. The depot is intended for the repair of rolling stock, not for its storage. Again, no one repairs the cars in the train. About the tunnel, you generally prescribed some kind of heresy. How do you imagine launching from a tunnel? What sidings are you talking about? Willingness is reduced to zero! This is not acceptable in the Strategic Missile Forces.
          1. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 9 December 2019 03: 14
            +2
            Given that the length of modern passenger trains exceeds 400 m, it is allowed to build a depot with half of the train set up on one track, provided that the number of tracks should not be more than four.
            By the way, here is the link:
            https://ondebeherner.ucoz.ru/news/ustrojstva_vagonnogo_khozjajstva_na_passazhirskikh_tekhnicheskikh_stancijakh_vagonomoechnye_mashiny/2016-01-31-163
            N
            Quote: Gas smoke protector
            Not a single depot is able to accommodate the entire composition. Or I don’t know something
            Now know.
            Quote: Gas smoke protector
            About the tunnel, you generally prescribed some kind of heresy. How do you imagine the launch from the tunnel? What are the siding, what are you talking about?
            What start up? Sucks for a couple of hours, exit during a satellite window, possibly with a change of direction. Let me bend with the tunnel, although there are tunnels with sidings, but the depot is the topic.
            1. Gas smoke protector
              Gas smoke protector 9 December 2019 13: 06
              +1
              Hmm .... As the Decembrists were terribly far from the people, you are just terribly far from the concept of "combat readiness" with your "leaves". Alert duty is carried out all year round, around the clock, every minute and every second! There are no "slops" there, because God forbid something - they will burn the country to the monks, and we will not have time to utter a word!
              1. Vladimir_2U
                Vladimir_2U 9 December 2019 14: 17
                +1
                For a moment, both ground launchers and railway launchers are considered a retaliatory weapon and their secrecy is ensured, including the invisibility of deployment, as is the case with SSBNs, or maybe you are ready to launch instantly during a change of position?
                Quote: Gas smoke protector
                Combat duty is carried out year-round, around the clock, every minute and every second

                Those. not a single rocket is ever removed from duty even for routine maintenance? Obviously, this is not so.
                I will explain my position on the depot: either according to the regulations, or in case of suspicion of opening a missile train, it is driven into the depot and, after waiting for the satellite window, leaves, possibly at night. )))
                1. Gas smoke protector
                  Gas smoke protector 14 December 2019 15: 32
                  +1
                  The missile is removed from duty on schedule, with a series of events. Or goes into an unplanned space. Yes, what can I tell you ... Yes and no.
  8. Narak-zempo
    Narak-zempo 8 December 2019 10: 11
    0
    And how many wagons do you need for the functioning of the BRC, except for the wagon with a rocket?
    If you develop such complexes, then you need to be more careful about camouflage. Create the most automated (ideally no people) sections. It would be nice to squeeze them to 2 cars, and without the need for direct coupling with each other. Disguise the wagons as freight and refrigerated trucks and hook them up to ordinary freight trains - let them roam across the country until one hour. Well, and draw up the appropriate waybills that de cargo for Horn and Hoof LLC, so that everything is sewn-covered.
    1. AU Ivanov.
      AU Ivanov. 8 December 2019 11: 05
      +1
      It does not make sense to disguise it as refrigerators - we have almost none left, and the last remaining ones will be written off in a year. If to disguise, then under the passenger train.
      1. Narak-zempo
        Narak-zempo 8 December 2019 12: 10
        0
        Quote: AS Ivanov.
        If to disguise, then under the passenger train.

        And how do you disguise a carriage with a rocket as a passenger? The control car, let’s say it’s going to be a postal car, but two postal ones are too much already.
        1. AU Ivanov.
          AU Ivanov. 8 December 2019 12: 42
          0
          From space it will be difficult to determine whether it is a mail car or a passenger car. Moreover, as a rule, there are no passenger cars in the mail-baggage train. Moreover, some transport companies use railway cars written off from the Moscow Region for railway transportation, the slang name being rocket carriers. The ground observer, more or less familiar with the rolling stock of Russian Railways, easily identifies BZHRK.
          1. Golovan Jack
            Golovan Jack 8 December 2019 13: 13
            -1
            Quote: AS Ivanov.
            From space it will be difficult to determine whether it is a mail car or a passenger

            Ummm ... they could read license plates from outer space when I was small. And it was a long time ago.

            In addition - why, in general, is it so difficult - "from space", when every gender and age civilian now has a photo-video camera, with access to the Internet? I took a photo and sent it ... to all the business.

            It is much more difficult to hide something now than it was under the USSR.

            The violinist is not needed (s).
            1. Fan-fan
              Fan-fan 8 December 2019 18: 47
              0
              In a threatened period, the Internet will be cut off this time. And two - so what if the spy determined the BZHRK, if he doesn’t have a grenade launcher, what will he do? Let’s say somehow it still manages to transmit the coordinates, all the same, there’s no sense, since a rocket from the United States until the train arrives will be 50 km away.
              1. Golovan Jack
                Golovan Jack 8 December 2019 18: 56
                0
                Quote: Fan-Fan
                In a threatened period, the Internet will be cut off this time

                Let's admit. And Iridium, for example, will they also be "chopped off"? wink

                Quote: Fan-Fan
                so what from the fact that the spy determined BZHRK

                He gave the coordinates, the speed of the train is known, the railway map is known, no one canceled the satellites ... do you need to chew further?

                Quote: Fan-Fan
                since the rocket from the USA until the train arrives will be over 50 km

                The train does not need a "rocket from the USA". And from the Tribaltic, the gift will fly much faster ... but it doesn't even matter.

                The important thing is that 102 times here already explained: DBC now don't disguise. It is monitored - once or twice, therefore, the very meaning of its creation is lost.

                But no - are, ahem, create, with tenacity worthy of a lot of better use, banging their heads against the open gates ... a garden, pants on straps request
                1. Narak-zempo
                  Narak-zempo 8 December 2019 20: 37
                  -1
                  Quote: Golovan Jack
                  He gave the coordinates, the speed of the train is known, the railway map is known, no one canceled the satellites ... do you need to chew further?

                  There was already a discussion at VO (I don’t know how to find) that even the movement of a ship in real time is impossible to track from a satellite.
                  But the point is not to disguise from satellites. It is necessary to mask from ground observers in such a way as to understand that this is a missile system, it was possible only after getting inside. And let in the composition of conventional trains in a chaotic manner throughout the country.
                  1. SVD68
                    SVD68 9 December 2019 08: 28
                    +1
                    Quote: Narak-zempo
                    And let in the composition of conventional trains in a chaotic manner throughout the country.

                    The chaotic order will create chaos in the railway traffic. And the planned one will be known to all railway workers, members of their families and friends.
        2. U-58
          U-58 8 December 2019 15: 20
          +2
          But postal, postal-luggage, special wagons for convicts, Gokhran wagons, courier service, railway laboratories - a dime a dozen.
          You don’t even have to hide the guards
      2. Den717
        Den717 8 December 2019 12: 11
        0
        Quote: AS Ivanov.
        It does not make sense to disguise it as refrigerators - we have almost none left, and the last remaining ones will be written off in a year. If to disguise, then under the passenger train.

        There are closed car transporters, after all.
    2. Arthur 85
      Arthur 85 8 December 2019 11: 49
      0
      Who will protect them on the way? At a minimum, you need a platoon of security, so that they do not know what they are protecting, except for the chief of the guard.
      1. Narak-zempo
        Narak-zempo 8 December 2019 12: 18
        0
        Quote: Arthur 85
        Who will protect them on the way? At a minimum, you need a platoon of security, so that they do not know what they are protecting, except for the chief of the guard.

        You can, of course, put officers in civilian clothes disguised as ChOPovtsev.
        But security is a unmasking sign; it does not belong to the train itself.
        Cars can be equipped with an automatic anti-hacking system + GLONASS tracker, security guards the complex by car or helicopter in the distance.
        In the end, it is difficult to steal a carriage and hide it somewhere in a remote place.
        1. Arthur 85
          Arthur 85 8 December 2019 12: 25
          0
          Well this is, perhaps, yes. But you can disguise yourself as a "stage" carriage, then the presence of security will not confuse anyone (however, the abundance of such trains can provoke the emergence of a new lieutenant, and the dog is with him). But it is still impossible to leave such a dangerous cargo unguarded.
      2. AU Ivanov.
        AU Ivanov. 8 December 2019 12: 54
        +2
        A lot of goods following the Russian Railways are accompanied by security. Own or departmental. Dangerous, valuable goods. For example, fuel assemblies for nuclear power plants, raw materials for their production, military supplies. State Bank wagons, explosives and toxic substances - tons of discharge cargo.
    3. mehan
      mehan 8 December 2019 20: 45
      -2
      Three cars with two locomotives. Yes, not anyhow. Disguise, yeah.
  9. Pashhenko Nikolay
    Pashhenko Nikolay 8 December 2019 10: 46
    -1
    Considering that all railway junction stations are tied to large cities, how many people want nuclear missiles to travel around their cities and weights? And in many cases, the roads cut through the cities in the center. What is the need for such an unjustified risk? do not fence the garden.
    1. Narak-zempo
      Narak-zempo 8 December 2019 12: 20
      +2
      Quote: Pashhenko Nikolay
      Do we have many who want nuclear missiles to travel around their cities and towns?

      And who will ask them something?
    2. Gas smoke protector
      Gas smoke protector 8 December 2019 13: 18
      +5
      PGRK calmly travel around cities and towns. Those who do not want to take a walk will take a walk, about the blocking of roads of general gzratykut until the next march. They will object by force - they will receive a hat. It was the case, and it came to the shooting.
    3. U-58
      U-58 8 December 2019 15: 23
      +3
      And how did you live?
      Trains went near you and what?
      They did not die and lived normally.
      Are you worried right now?
  10. Pavel57
    Pavel57 8 December 2019 10: 55
    -2
    Vulnerability from saboteurs is also characteristic of points of basing mobile systems and wheeled launchers.
  11. oleko51081
    oleko51081 8 December 2019 11: 59
    0
    This project only holds back the START Treaty. 3 equal number of warheads.
  12. Bear040
    Bear040 8 December 2019 12: 32
    +3
    Another example of the fact that not all the academician ranks got what they deserved ... 1) A sabotage can be at any facility if it is poorly guarded ... 2) Train mobility is much higher than any wheeled chassis, stating the opposite is stupid ..
    1. Gas smoke protector
      Gas smoke protector 8 December 2019 13: 19
      -2
      No, not higher.
      1. Fan-fan
        Fan-fan 8 December 2019 18: 51
        -1
        The train speed is 3 or 4 times higher than that of a tractor, which can also get stuck in the mud or in the snow.
        1. Gas smoke protector
          Gas smoke protector 8 December 2019 19: 07
          0
          The train goes in an open place and has nowhere to hide. The train area and the PGRK area are also different in size and have a different level of road network. PGRK has more room for maneuver.
        2. SVD68
          SVD68 9 December 2019 08: 16
          -1
          Quote: Fan-Fan
          The train speed is 3 or 4 times higher than that of a tractor, which can also get stuck in the mud or in the snow.

          No, because:
          1) other trains move along the same paths and they cannot be synchronized to the speed of the bzhrk;
          2) the train cannot turn and go sideways.
  13. Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 8 December 2019 13: 09
    +1
    Involve the mind. Unpopular tactics in the Defense Ministry, and as a strategy, something reasonable is rarely used. But we are not MOs, let's try!
    What should be a modern missile with nuclear weapons, or with a large volume charge, from the point of view of the general layout? What are the boundary requirements? Well, mine-based missiles are no longer weapons at all. You just have to forget about them. The capabilities of satellite-based observation tools and global analysis of scattered data in a network have long ago made it possible to calculate all the most secret mine positions with an accuracy of several meters.
    So the mathematics, embodied in the gigantic powers of computing clusters (bitcoins ... why such computing power? Well, how would it be ...), has already prepared programs to counter any stationary missiles, whatever concealment systems, how to conceal the launches themselves, and all sorts of false in flight, neither were used. They will shoot everything down. Since there is almost nothing to count, and "Patriots" will be shot down, without a chance.
    Sea based? Much, much better, but even here the means of detection, thanks to computers, are very strong, and there will never be enough boats to win, it’s a very expensive thing - a boat, and there are too many missiles on it. One hit, and you lost a whole tactical area.
    What is coming out? You need something that will move around the country like a flea through a dog - until it bites, you won’t know where it is at all. That is, a really dangerous rocket today is a large railway container. Looks like a container, carry like a container, by train or truck. Well, heavy ... how many heavy loads are there? A couple more containers - collateral. Communications and management, if you take everything modern, easily fit into a couple of cubic meters. The rest are consumables for the rocket. By launching the container is destroyed, one-time, so at times cheaper and easier to start. Can be loaded onto a ship. Can be transported by train. With good security, you can transport abroad!
    Actually, this is the only option that has the right to exist in modern conditions from the point of view of combat readiness.
  14. megadeth
    megadeth 8 December 2019 13: 34
    +1
    The whole business of whom the BZHRK worked when you find out, then you will understand why they are in no hurry to reanimate ... All the Strategic Missile Forces veterans with the upcoming 60th anniversary, happiness, health to you and your loved ones, well, more money .. !!!
    1. Golovan Jack
      Golovan Jack 8 December 2019 13: 41
      -1
      Quote: megadeth
      The whole thing who worked BZHRKwhen you find out, then you will understand why they are in no hurry to reanimate ...

      Oops ... and for whom?? belay

      I want to know everything (s). It is clearly no longer secret laughing
  15. malyvalv
    malyvalv 8 December 2019 14: 05
    -1
    Correctly done that covered. The complex cannot be hidden from the observer on the ground. And here the probability of carrying out sabotage at hour X sharply increases. And it’s just to catch some tiny stray, which will be passive, but at hour X it will transmit the coordinates to the satellite very simply.
    Protecting against such threats in a dense forest is easier.
    1. Fan-fan
      Fan-fan 8 December 2019 18: 59
      -1
      Well, what's the use of coordinates, how will an adversary rocket get into a moving train? ICBMs fall only in immovable objects - do you understand that? They can get it by aviation, but what if a train is in the middle of Siberia, how to deliver a bomb there? You do not know that the railway has already reached Yakutsk? Thousands of kilometers across the deep taiga, and not a single saboteur will survive there.
      1. malyvalv
        malyvalv 11 December 2019 11: 57
        0
        Recently, in the "military acceptance" on Zvezda, they showed the Yars outpost. Impressive. In the deep taiga, where no saboteur seems to survive. And this is in a situation where there are no civilians 100 km around. It is much easier to organize sabotage on the railway.
        A train with ICBMs will be idle most of the time, not ride. The probability that at hour X he will stand and not move is high.
  16. Aviator_
    Aviator_ 8 December 2019 15: 56
    +3
    Who is this Arbatov:
    In 1993-1995, he was a deputy of the State Duma of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation of the first convocation (elected from the federal list of the Yabloko Public Association). Member of the Defense Committee.

    In 1995-1999, he was a deputy of the State Duma of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation of the second convocation (elected from the Yabloko federal list). Deputy Chairman of the Defense Committee.

    In 1999-2003, he was a deputy of the State Duma of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation of the third convocation (elected from the Yabloko federal list). Deputy Chairman of the Defense Committee.
    And why is the opinion of a convinced Yabloko so holy?
    1. hydrox
      hydrox 8 December 2019 17: 17
      +1
      Well, yes, this contingent is labeled: wherever they are announced, they necessarily begin to drive some obscene blizzard and, as a rule, are either off topic or perpendicular.
    2. Fan-fan
      Fan-fan 8 December 2019 19: 00
      -1
      And I thought that he was an expert in military affairs, and he was just a civilian.
      1. Aviator_
        Aviator_ 8 December 2019 20: 34
        +1
        His dad is the notorious director of the US and Canada Institute, the right hand of the labeled Gorbi.
  17. evgen1221
    evgen1221 8 December 2019 16: 18
    -1
    I read all the comments here and here are my 5 kopecks. It’s as if we can create the BZHRD at least tomorrow, but there are moments about which only 2 people said in passing. Namely, shelter places, cross parking areas (it’s mostly lost and it costs a lot of time to restore, the territory has decreased and we have only 3 US embassies on our land with relying residency and other things, plus we don’t take refrigerators in bulk almost by train. Add the fact that they have invested heavily in the vanguards and other things and there will be no money for the train for a long time, plus the fact of setting up such a system will cool the arms race and will not go unnoticed, but club k systems are quite capable of quiet if you don’t already ride on unnecessarily, this topic has long been launched in the country, and there are many advantages compared to the railway, at least not much money yet, and most importantly the people of grammage. American))))
  18. Sancho_SP
    Sancho_SP 8 December 2019 16: 54
    +2
    A lot of words about a simple thought: the carrying capacity of cars is limited by infrastructure, and this indicator has already been achieved on wheeled vehicles. At the same time, wheel installations are not limited to railways.

    The next qualitative step is a unified forty-foot container with an autonomous rocket launcher that allows launching from a train platform, a bulk carrier deck, from a truck or simply from an asphalt platform.
    1. Fan-fan
      Fan-fan 8 December 2019 19: 02
      -2
      Quote: Sancho_SP
      unified forty-foot container

      But the intercontinental missile will not fit into it.
      1. Sancho_SP
        Sancho_SP 8 December 2019 20: 28
        0
        Exactly. And so far it will not fit in - wheeled Yars in all respects are more interesting than railway options.

        In the meantime, you can enter the caliber or something medium-range ballistic in these containers to do, bringing to the series.
  19. Operator
    Operator 8 December 2019 18: 26
    +1
    Quote: user3574
    Directions for improving strategic nuclear forces in the context of missile defense development

    On the one hand, the author of this article in the parliamentary collection "National Security" for 2015 is the general director / general designer of the JSC "GRTs named after Makeev" V.G. Degtyar.

    On the other hand, the article is silent about the fact that potential opponents are not armed with anti-ballistic missiles armed with more than one interceptor (due to a multiple increase in the launch weight of anti-ballistic missiles) or thermonuclear warheads with an increased neutron yield (due to the blocking of the work of radar missile defense from high-altitude special warhead explosions) .

    If the first obstacle can still be overcome (by writing off the existing anti-ballistic missiles and developing / producing heavier / more expensive ones), then the second is not physically possible (therefore, all anti-missiles with thermonuclear warheads were withdrawn from service in Russia and the USA).

    Therefore, the third version of missile defense, shown in the Degtyar table, is spherical. Moreover, in the case of the use of the leading ICBM / SLBM / SLBM warheads, the nuclear charges of which explode even when approaching the missile defense zones, the radars of the latter become blind from EMP even before the main mass of warheads arrive, making it impossible to use any anti-missile systems in principle.

    However, this option of overcoming missile defense with ballistic missiles of any class, up to ultralight types of the Soviet Kurier ICBM, is not modestly covered in an article by the general director, who frightens gullible Russian parliamentarians with the terrible US missile defense and openly lobbies the interests of his SRC laughing
  20. soloveyav
    soloveyav 8 December 2019 18: 34
    +4
    In the order of thoughts of the amateur in railway I will add.
    Trains run on schedule and have different priorities. BZHRK as a particularly important train will have maximum priority, which means that at least the station staff and sympathizers may have thoughts - what kind of strange composition is this? And since human stupidity is ineradicable, after a while the competent authorities will be able to see a lot of photographs in the network in the style of me and a nuclear train. And if someone from the enemy thinks of making an action out of this, he will very quickly receive photos of the trains at all stations and depots, he will be able to build all potential routes and outline routes for saboteurs or points for rocket attacks. And all this even without satellites.
    1. SVD68
      SVD68 9 December 2019 08: 31
      0
      Therefore, I say that if the BZHK is adopted for service, the Russian Railways will have to be transferred under the control of the Ministry of Defense with the introduction of secrecy regimes.
  21. Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 8 December 2019 21: 46
    -1
    In the context of mobility, according to A. Arbatov, BZHRK inferior to PGRK on wheeled chassis. The latter do not need railways or bridges. Their patrol routes are almost unpredictable.

    A more than controversial statement is even strange for an academician. The weight of the complex with a rocket is more than 100 tons - have you seen many such bridges in the countryside? I don’t try so much but I only remember 12-18 tons maximum .. Obviously, the Yars routes are specially prepared and therefore predictable. He started and went wherever he could look. Railroad in this regard, an example of a powerful and lifting infrastructure, they must hold any bridge of 100 tons.
  22. DAK70
    DAK70 9 December 2019 00: 00
    +3
    Hello!
    Sorry I didn’t read all the comments to the end, so if I repeat that, do not swear. He served at this complex.
    BZHRK were initially delivered under an agreement with the Americans by our Gorbachev, for fun. Under the contract, they were forbidden to go to the IBE. They were on duty at the PPD, which the Americans were very happy about. Then, under the new contract, they went under the knife. Yes, the complex was developed back in the USSR by Yuzhmash in cooperation with others, but some "critical" systems were made by them. Because of this, after 1995 -1996, some problems with spare parts began. I think this was one of the main reasons for their reduction. In those years, they still could not replace suppliers from Ukraine for the most "painful" systems. The second reason is the not fully completed TRB area for the normal maintenance of the complex. In one of the divisions, it was not at all and therefore it was necessary to drive trains to conduct RTO through half the country. Probably for these and some other reasons (political, economic) they were given under the contract.
    With regard to the economic component. When they write about its high cost of upkeep, construction and maintenance, it seems that the person who writes this did not serve in the Strategic Missile Forces. Have you ever attended the divorce of the shift of the DS of the BZHRK, OS, and SPU divisions? So only by the number of officers and warrant officers and soldiers in the DS BZHRK and SPU, much becomes clear. The change of the BZHRK is approximately equal to the change of one SPU division. And the amount of equipment that eats fuels and lubricants cannot be compared at all. If a SPU or BZHRK regiment is on duty at the point of permanent deployment, then everyone is at the "Columns" of electricity. If the movements are planned according to the plan to the area, you can imagine how much equipment the SPU regiment is driving out. Moreover, according to the number of diesels eating fuel and lubricants, the SPU regiment will give the heat just hold on. If you add up all the diesel engines of the BZHRK regiment, there are simply fewer of them compared to the SPU regiment. In terms of the number of necessary structures in the PPD regiment of the SPU and BZHRK, this is also far from in favor of the SPU. At times, mobile complexes need more of them. BZHRK were created for permanent presence at the MBP. We called them - land submarine. The autonomy is large, just sometimes go to the PPD to replenish and maintain equipment, well, or to troubleshoot. All. Economically, they lost to the OS shelves. In general, I can write a lot about this. But it's definitely a pity that these complexes were removed. Another example. When I served on them in one of the divisions, this division covered up to 50% of the tasks of the entire army in which it was part. By the way, this army included two huge divisions of the SPU Poplar and another division of the SPU of a reduced composition. And by the way, we did not strengthen the sleepers and bridges. The quality of the railways of the Ministry of Railways was enough to fulfill its tasks. And the length of the MBP BZHRK in comparison with the positional area of ​​the SPU is a huge difference. MBP BZHRK is thousands of kilometers. Something like this. Sincerely.
  23. Zusul
    Zusul 9 December 2019 15: 08
    -1
    Quote: dauria
    If regular bzhrk can be built into the schedule under the guise of freight trains


    Why is everyone clinging to "disguise"? She is not at all the main thing in this undertaking.
    Even if the train has a personal guarded branch 50 km long, this will allow it to be taken out from under the strike. Even if the whole world knows about this branch and this composition. Fill all 50 km with nuclear bombs after 3 km? Great exchange.

    Why nuclear? Enough of 10 normal landmines every 2-3 km and the complex will not leave anywhere at the right time. Instead of land mines, you can pour a cruise missile or conventional aerial bombs, if the situation allows
  24. storm
    storm 10 December 2019 01: 16
    0
    The START-3 treaty limits the number of nuclear weapons carriers (MBR) to 700 units.
    the number of barley - 1550.
    In general, this agreement allows the formation of fairly balanced deterrence forces:
    3 missile armies of the Strategic Missile Forces as part of 12 divisions of the Strategic Missile Forces
    - 90 units of Yars-S silo launchers - 3 divisions of 5 regiments each (regiment - 6 launchers)
    - 60 units mine launchers Sarmat - 2 divisions of 5 regiments (regiment - 6 launchers)
    one division of the Sarmat ICBM can be armed with Vanguard units of 3-4 units. on the media.
    -
    30 units mine PU UR-100 with the unit Vanguard - 1 division, 5 regiments (regiment - 6 silos)
    - 216 units Yars mobile complexes - 6 divisions, 4 regiments each (regiment-9 PU)
    (for 2019 in the Strategic Missile Forces 150 Yars complexes)

    For 100% modernization of the Strategic Missile Forces from Topol (63 units) / Topol-M (78 units), it is necessary to purchase about 150 more Yars complexes. At the current pace of rearmament, it will take (7-8 years).


    Total: 396 units in the Strategic Missile Forces, against 400 units. ICBM Minuteman-3 US mine.


    Navy
    - 12 submarines Borey / Borey-A for 16 ICBM Mace = 192 units.
    Against 14 Ohio nuclear submarines, 20 Trident-5 ICBMs each = 240 units.

    Air force
    - 50 units of the Russian Aerospace Forces
    against 60 US air forces
  25. Old26
    Old26 11 December 2019 18: 07
    +3
    Quote: svd-xnumx
    Until the last agreements with the phishington have been covered. This is not realistic. Under the agreement, even PGRK are on duty only in a certain area.

    This was under START-2. There are no such restrictions under START-3.

    Quote: g1v2
    And you can do it even easier. The train cannot teleport. To deliver a program that will track the location of the train once detected through civilian satellites. Once it is determined by indirect data or using conventional intelligence, mark it with a marker, and then simply track it automatically. He’s not going anywhere from the rails. In fact, it’s like a strategic submarine, only it can’t go to the depths and goes along the same routes.

    The difference between the times of the existence of "Molodets" and the current "Barguzin" is the possibility of satellite reconnaissance. If in the 80s the resolution of American satellites was about 1,5-3 meters (offhand) in detailed resolution, and this resolution was not always enough for fixing and, most importantly, identifying the complex, now the problem is solved much easier. Firstly, the latest opto-electronic reconnaissance satellites have detailed resolutions up to 1 cm. In addition, there are a large number of various earth remote sensing satellites. And if the satellites of such a plan of the 15s had a panchromic spectrum and 80-2 multispectral zones (for example, blue, green, red, infrared zones of the spectrum), now there can be up to a dozen or more such zones. Moreover, they overlap each other. That is, there may already be a yellow-green area, or green-blue, or whatever. Plus, the resolution has decreased from the same 3 meters to 40-2 now. And the issue of camouflage comes first. It is one thing to provide masking in one spectrum (for example, green), and quite another in the overlap zone.

    Besides, for some reason everyone forgets about one thing. It is possible to make BZHRK, constructively it is not a problem. The question is why? If the "Well done" had three locomotives in order to separate the launch modules to the required distance, now they are planning one locomotive (which means that all 6 launchers will be in a single module at the field launch position). The deployment of one division was planned. Almost everything is started for the sake of 5 compositions. But the PPD of the existing divisions are multiplied by zero. We'll have to recreate them, and not only the PPDs themselves, but also the entire infrastructure (residential towns, etc.) Isn't it easier to deploy several additional regiments in the existing PGRK divisions? more efficient, KMK, and most importantly cheaper.

    Quote: PSih2097
    Quote: U-58
    Each silos registered with the enemy.

    All PGRK are also registered and God forbid to go beyond a certain area ...

    I repeat. The deployment limit of 250 sq. km were in the old contract. In the new, there are no such restrictions. Like much else that was in START-000

    Quote: assault
    The START-3 treaty limits the number of nuclear weapons carriers (MBR) to 700 units.
    the number of barley - 1550.
    In general, this agreement allows the formation of fairly balanced deterrence forces:
    3 missile armies of the Strategic Missile Forces as part of 12 divisions of the Strategic Missile Forces
    - 90 units of Yars-S silo launchers - 3 divisions of 5 regiments each (regiment - 6 launchers)
    - 60 units mine launchers Sarmat - 2 divisions of 5 regiments (regiment - 6 launchers)
    one division of the Sarmat ICBM can be armed with Vanguard units of 3-4 units. on the media.
    -
    30 units mine PU UR-100 with the unit Vanguard - 1 division, 5 regiments (regiment - 6 silos)
    - 216 units Yars mobile complexes - 6 divisions, 4 regiments each (regiment-9 PU)
    (for 2019 in the Strategic Missile Forces 150 Yars complexes)

    For 100% modernization of the Strategic Missile Forces from Topol (63 units) / Topol-M (78 units), it is necessary to purchase about 150 more Yars complexes. At the current pace of rearmament, it will take (7-8 years).


    Total: 396 units in the Strategic Missile Forces, against 400 units. ICBM Minuteman-3 US mine.


    Navy
    - 12 submarines Borey / Borey-A for 16 ICBM Mace = 192 units.
    Against 14 Ohio nuclear submarines, 20 Trident-5 ICBMs each = 240 units.

    Air force
    - 50 units of the Russian Aerospace Forces
    against 60 US air forces


    I propose to cut back on the "sturgeon"

    Quote: assault
    The START-3 treaty limits the number of nuclear weapons carriers (MBR) to 700 units.
    the number of barley - 1550.

    700 is the number of deployed nuclear weapons carriers. The total number, including non-deployed ones, is 800. And this figure fluctuates even during the year ...

    Quote: assault
    In general, this agreement allows the formation of fairly balanced deterrence forces: 3 missile armies of the Strategic Missile Forces as part of 12 divisions of the Strategic Missile Forces

    They are in such a composition and exist

    Quote: assault
    - 90 units of Yars-S silo launchers - 3 divisions of 5 regiments each (regiment - 6 launchers)

    We do not have such a quantity of silos for the same "Yarsy-S". In addition, it is currently being deployed only as far as I remember FIRST Regiment mobile "Yars-S". According to the exchange data, there are only 20 non-deployed silos from UR-100N UTTH, which can be reconstructed into silos for "Yars" as part of the Tatishchevsk division. Plus 8 silos are being reconstructed in the Kozelsk division. The remaining 60 silos are occupied by the Topol-M complexes. And it won't reach them soon

    Quote: assault
    - 60 units mine launchers Sarmat - 2 divisions of 5 regiments (regiment - 6 launchers)

    Available according to all data provided 46 launchers from Voevoda ICBMs (deployed and not deployed). 60 silos for a long time already, no. Moreover, they are distributed in the amount of 18 + 28. so that 5 regiments of 6 silos may not work. And you get 3x6, plus 3x6 + 1x10. Besides, "Sarmat" is still a kind of "thing in itself". rake6ty does not exist and its performance characteristics are not known How many "Vanguards" can be on one "Sarmat" and how many such "Sarmats" - no one knows yet ...

    Quote: assault
    30 units mine PU UR-100 with the unit Vanguard - 1 division, 5 regiments (regiment - 6 silos)

    The development plans include the deployment of ONLY TWO REGIONS of product 15A35-71 with the Avangard complex. A total of 12 pieces. Where will the 30 "fresh" UR-100N UTTH come from?

    Quote: assault
    - 216 units Yars mobile complexes - 6 divisions, 4 regiments each (regiment-9 PU)
    (for 2019 in the Strategic Missile Forces 150 Yars complexes)

    Trim the sturgeon. By the end of the year, 14 mobile Yars regiments are planned, that is, 126 PGRK. Plus 12 stationary. Total 138. Another 2 divisions are planned in the future for rearmament. But the Strategic Missile Forces has only one PGRK division, which has 4 regiments. All the other 3, and one even with 2 shelves
    Even taking into account all the divisions with "Yars" instead of "Topols" - still less than 2 hundred PGRK

    Quote: assault
    Navy
    - 12 submarines Borey / Borey-A for 16 ICBM Mace = 192 units.
    Against 14 Ohio nuclear submarines, 20 Trident-5 ICBMs each = 240 units.

    The Ministry of Defense plans to build TEN boats of the Borey and Borey-A types. Where else did you two find it is unclear. So at best 160 Bulava SLBMs, not 192

    Quote: assault
    Air force
    - 50 units of the Russian Aerospace Forces
    against 60 US air forces

    The figure is not predictable at all
  26. Dzafdet
    Dzafdet 27 March 2020 15: 37
    0
    Quote: Nikolaevich I
    Quote: SVD68
    Transfer Railways under the complete control of the military?

    And where will Russian Railways go if the "war" begins ?!

    It used to be Russian Railways as a single organism. And now this is a bunch of AO. Capitalism, however ... Previously, they even had their own code. And there were serious deadlines, for example, for sabotaging work up to 7 years of camps ....
  27. Dzafdet
    Dzafdet 27 March 2020 16: 21
    0
    Quote: prapor55
    Trains could still go extending the life of missiles? I think that this problem could be solved, how much is the Soviet missiles at the moment on the database? The assassination of the BZHRK is entirely the fault of the current commander in chief. soldier

    Nope. Fuel degradation. And they made a rocket in Ukraine. And this is abroad. The factory was redesigned for the production of washing powder ...
  28. Dzafdet
    Dzafdet 27 March 2020 16: 26
    0
    Quote: Operator
    Quote: user3574
    Directions for improving strategic nuclear forces in the context of missile defense development

    On the one hand, the author of this article in the parliamentary collection "National Security" for 2015 is the general director / general designer of the JSC "GRTs named after Makeev" V.G. Degtyar.

    On the other hand, the article is silent about the fact that potential opponents are not armed with anti-ballistic missiles armed with more than one interceptor (due to a multiple increase in the launch weight of anti-ballistic missiles) or thermonuclear warheads with an increased neutron yield (due to the blocking of the work of radar missile defense from high-altitude special warhead explosions) .

    If the first obstacle can still be overcome (by writing off the existing anti-ballistic missiles and developing / producing heavier / more expensive ones), then the second is not physically possible (therefore, all anti-missiles with thermonuclear warheads were withdrawn from service in Russia and the USA).

    Therefore, the third version of missile defense, shown in the Degtyar table, is spherical. Moreover, in the case of the use of the leading ICBM / SLBM / SLBM warheads, the nuclear charges of which explode even when approaching the missile defense zones, the radars of the latter become blind from EMP even before the main mass of warheads arrive, making it impossible to use any anti-missile systems in principle.

    However, this option of overcoming missile defense with ballistic missiles of any class, up to ultralight types of the Soviet Kurier ICBM, is not modestly covered in an article by the general director, who frightens gullible Russian parliamentarians with the terrible US missile defense and openly lobbies the interests of his SRC laughing



    Well, not rockets, but BB. But what about experiments with the undermining of nuclear warheads in the atmosphere, what are you not bringing? There we are talking about neutron weapons. So nothing will interfere with your missile defense ..