Military Review

Su-35 or F-35: what choice will Turkey make?

47

Russian and Turkish presidents Vladimir Putin and Recep Erdogan are discussing a new possible deal. Ankara is seriously considering the prospect of buying a Russian Su-35 fighter instead of the American F-35, which Washington does not want to sell to Turkey after the deal with C-400.


Why did Turkey think about buying a Su-35?


Today, much is being said and written about the ongoing negotiations between the Russian and Turkish leaders both in Turkey and in other countries. Turkish officials themselves claim that negotiations are already at an advanced stage. This means only one thing - the deal is likely to take place. In the person of Turkey, Russia, quite possibly, has found a new solvent partner for the purchase of weapons. First C-400, then Su-35: why not?

The head of the Defense Industry Administration under the Turkish Presidential Administration Ismail Demir stresses that Turkish experts are currently studying the technical characteristics of the Russian Su-35 aircraft. The official noted the importance of acquiring Russian weapons for the actual Turkish developments on the creation of fighters and anti-aircraft missile systems already made in Turkey.

Buying Su-35 both politically and psychologically for Turkey will be much easier than signing a supply agreement for C-400 in due time. To begin with, the barrier that separated Turkey from military cooperation with Russia was overcome. The first step was taken when Ankara decided to purchase C-400. Despite opposition from the United States, Erdogan did not abandon his decision and this cost Turkey a serious deterioration in relations with the United States.

True, it is not known who lost even more: the USA or Turkey. After all, Washington has no new ally in this region. None of the Balkan or Middle Eastern countries closely cooperating with the United States, Turkey is a competitor.

Even Greece, whose armed forces are also very large, can hardly be considered as a full-fledged replacement for Turkey, and the geographical position of Greece is still much less advantageous, especially if we talk about proximity to such key points as Transcaucasia, Mesopotamia and the Black Sea region. That is why the United States did not go to the final severance of military-political ties with Ankara.


Naturally, the Turkish leadership, seeing that the United States “ate” the supply of C-400 to Turkey, considered it possible for itself to continue to cooperate with Russia and conclude profitable contracts. The Americans, by the way, themselves pushed the Turks to the idea of ​​acquiring the Su-35, because after the purchase of the C-400 at the Pentagon they started talking about not selling the F-35 to the Turks. And Ankara simply had no choice but to start looking for an alternative to the American aircraft.

Another reason why the Turks may prefer the Su-35 is a better price. Most Russian weapons are not as expensive as American ones. The cost of one fighter can be estimated by the Russian side from 50 million to 70 million dollars. If Turkey decides to buy Russian aircraft, then it will be about deliveries of aircraft for two squadrons of the Turkish air force. These are 48 Su-35 machines.


Since Russian aircraft have always been cheaper in the world arms market than American ones, with the purchase of such a large number of Su-35, the Turkish budget will remain a clear winner. Ankara will spend far less money than if she nevertheless concluded a similar agreement with Washington.

But there is another important point, which, of course, is taken into account by the Turkish military command and political leadership. The fact is that the political interests of Turkey and the United States are now in many ways opposed. In Syria, the US army supports the Kurdish militia, which Ankara considers a terrorist organization and the worst enemy of the Turkish state.

In the Mediterranean, the United States is developing military ties with Cyprus and Greece. Although Greece is a member of NATO, its relations with Turkey are very complicated, on the verge of conflict. The situation with Cyprus is even more complicated, since the island is divided between the Greek Republic of Cyprus itself and the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus - a self-proclaimed state, under the protection and protection of Ankara.

Fighter F-35 is equipped with ALIS (Autonomics Logistics and Information System), which is the world's first system for monitoring the technical condition of aircraft, which allows not only to monitor emerging technical problems, but also to limit the range of tasks that the fighter can perform. In fact, the Pentagon has the ability to regulate the actions of fighters, including those that will be acquired by foreign states.

If Turkey purchases F-35 from the United States, then if they are used for unauthorized use, the American side will be able to block the possibility of combat use of aircraft. The probability of this is very high. For example, Americans can do this if there is a conflict between Turkey and Greece (or Cyprus), or if the Turkish Air Force begins to use the F-35 against the Kurdish militia.

In the case of Russian aircraft, such risks are minimized. And with this, our Su-35 are also more interesting to the Turks than the American F-35. And in general, Turkey is already tired of NATO membership and military cooperation with the United States, which it seems to be less and less promising.

For example, the Turks do not want to participate in a program to prepare to repel possible Russian aggression against Poland and the Baltic countries. Where is the Baltic and where is Turkey? Why should Ankara spend energy and money on useless military activity if neither the Americans nor the European allies of the North Atlantic Alliance of Turkey help and are going to help in the fight against the Kurdish movement?

Interestingly, NATO has, and many Western military analysts admit, there are currently no formal mechanisms to punish Turkey for the purchase of C-400 or Su-35. Although the military officials of the alliance claim that the weapons used by the participating countries should be compatible with each other, they cannot directly order Ankara not to buy Russian anti-aircraft missile systems or aircraft.

Americans see C-400 as a threat


In the United States, they are also in no hurry to sell F-35 to Turkey. The Pentagon also has its own reasons for concern, as does the Turkish side. Thus, the US military command fears that the sale of the latest fighter to Turkey will lead to the fact that the use of C-400 will be practiced against it. And the Americans do not need this at all.

Su-35 or F-35: what choice will Turkey make?

The fact that the purchase of C-400 by the Turkish side threatens US national security has been repeatedly stated by US President Donald Trump. Washington is trying to convince Turkey not to put Russian anti-aircraft missile systems into operation, but Ankara has not yet listened to the opinion of its formal allies.

The United States promises that if the Turkish leadership decides to block the C-400 in storage and the American military experts periodically check anti-aircraft missile systems, making sure that they are not being exploited, Ankara will be able to obtain permission to buy the F-35 fighter. But the Turkish side, of course, will not agree to such an agreement.

Firstly, the Turks did not buy C-400 for a lot of money, so that the latest systems would gather dust in their arsenals without work and not strengthen the real defense capability of the Turkish state. It is profitable for Ankara to buy both Russian and American weapons, as this brings Erdogan's cherished goal closer - to turn Turkey into an independent developer and player in the international arms market.

Secondly, an ambitious Erdogan would consider checks of Turkish weapons American controllers insulting national sovereignty and personally. He is unlikely to make such a decision, especially without good reason. Thus, the Turkish president has repeatedly stated that he is ready to buy the American Patriot air defense system, but is also not going to get rid of the C-400 and considers attempts to put pressure on Turkey in this matter a violation of the Turkish national sovereignty. And it’s hard to disagree with Erdogan in this regard. Turkey, as a sovereign country, has every right to choose which and whom to buy weapons from and how to combine it, how to use it for its own purposes.


Thirdly, as we have already explained above, the F-35 project itself is becoming less and less interesting for Turkey, since the modern market for military equipment and weapons is not limited to American weapons alone. And Erdogan makes it clear that he wants to find new suppliers. In the end, the more offers, the more favorable the situation for the buyer.

Mystery F-35 and US market interests


Now F-35 is one of Washington's most famous and well-developed projects in the field of production of military equipment. The American side is steadily developing the myth of the F-35 as the most advanced fighter in the world, which easily bypasses enemy air defense systems. Perhaps this is why Turkey’s purchase of the S-400 was the most important reason for the refusal to sell fighter jets to Ankara - in the USA, they fear that Russian anti-aircraft missile systems can open their eyes to the true characteristics of the F-35.

In particular, the F-35 is positioned as the fastest and most supersonic aircraft, but many aviation experts with this presentation of information about the American fighter do not agree. Questions are raised by the idea of ​​a fighter as “invisible”, which itself is capable of hitting any targets, but at the same time enemy pilots will not understand who and where it shoots from. Lockheed Martin also says that the plane is supposedly able to pass through the most powerful air defense systems without problems.

At the same time, the F-35 allegedly goes unnoticed. It is these characteristics that attract buyers from other countries in the American fighter, but if it can be documented that the aircraft is not so fast and inconspicuous, as the US claims, massive sales abroad and the huge revenues of the US military industry from F-35 can be do not dream.


It seems that Donald Trump and his entourage are well aware of the true price of the latest fighter, so they were worried, trying to completely exclude the possibility of its interaction with C-400 anti-aircraft missile systems. After all, if it is established that Russian air defense systems are detecting an American fighter, then its reputation as the coolest fighter in the world will be over by stealth.

Both Trump and his entourage are not only politicians, but businessmen as well. And they, having counted all the financial pros and cons, easily went to deny Turkey the acquisition of the 100 F-35, and Lockheed Martin would have received 10 billion for them.

But if in Turkey, with the help of C-400, it had been established that the fighter was not so invulnerable, the American military industry would have lost much more money, since other countries would not have started buying F-35.

In the meantime, Turkey is looking at the Su-35, but does not refuse the idea of ​​acquiring the F-35. Ideally, Ankara would love to acquire both Russian and American aircraft.
Author:
Photos used:
iz.ru, militaryarms.ru, gazeta.ru
47 comments
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  1. Solieri
    Solieri 4 December 2019 05: 55
    0
    Turks will make a choice how it is beneficial to them!
    1. Waddimm
      Waddimm 4 December 2019 06: 49
      +1
      To eat, then he will eat, but hto, will he give it? (with).
      1. Solieri
        Solieri 4 December 2019 07: 01
        0
        Quote: Waddimm
        To eat, then he will eat, but hto, will he give it? (with).

        Erdogan already has a S-400. The United States will not go anywhere, they will not expose the flank of NATO and as a result Turkey will have the F-35. Maybe Turkey will still buy the Su-57E.
        1. LON
          LON 4 December 2019 10: 41
          -6
          Since Russian aircraft have always been cheaper in the world arms market than American ones, with the purchase of such a large number of Su-35s, the Turkish budget will be a clear winner.
          Talking about the cheapness of the SU-35, this is similar to the argument that the Lada is cheaper than a Mercedes.
        2. LON
          LON 4 December 2019 10: 54
          -3
          And Ankara simply had no choice but to start looking for an alternative to the American aircraft.

          Saying that the SU-35 is an alternative to the F-35 is just ridiculous. In my opinion, the author mixed up the audience.
    2. antivirus
      antivirus 4 December 2019 10: 37
      +1
      Turks play out - they will take the Straits from them.
      It is important for the West to control exits from the Black Sea and transit from Europe to BBV. who and how guards - they do not care, but people should be their own, not Russian
      1. Seal
        Seal 5 December 2019 11: 42
        0
        Who will take it when they already have our S-400?
        1. antivirus
          antivirus 5 December 2019 12: 06
          0
          issue price - and S-35 (or smu-117) + F400 will be destroyed.
          everything has a price and the Turks will not die for the straits that will block them.
          it is easier to surrender and surrender the straits to other "democrats of the west."

          only in the USSR did they promote patriotic education - "to fight to the death", and in the whole world - the cost of war (even for their homeland)
          1. Seal
            Seal 5 December 2019 12: 15
            +1
            Any change in the status of the straits is a violation of the 1936 Montreux Convention. USSR party to the Convention. The Russian Federation is the successor of the USSR. There is a legal right for our intervention. In any case, in the UN Security Council, Russia and China will act as a united front against changing the jurisdiction and status of the straits.
            1. antivirus
              antivirus 5 December 2019 12: 18
              +1
              one more reason to dissolve the UN will be. as enough of these clues are gathered - a redistribution of the world will be held.
              "Partners" are not dirty with "international law"
              Price matters.
          2. xax
            xax 8 December 2019 23: 41
            +1
            Quote: antivirus
            only in the USSR did they promote patriotic education - "to fight to the death"

            Yeah. And before that, our peasant hollowed, say, Napoleon hollowed and never died.
  2. Thrifty
    Thrifty 4 December 2019 06: 00
    +2
    Ilya, you have forgotten that the Israelis already have f35, and they will probably try to check on them whether the S400 "sees" the Turks of the Israeli f35, and if it does, then at what distance. Israel will not sit silently, they need such data so that they can then blackmail the Loch Kid with these numbers and take cheaper planes from this company.
    1. Zaurbek
      Zaurbek 4 December 2019 07: 12
      +4
      They are already free for Israel ... at the expense of annual assistance. Israel can even make money on them, helmets and something else.
  3. Tank jacket
    Tank jacket 4 December 2019 06: 07
    0
    You must protect your sky from the Americans. Therefore, they will take the SU-35. F-35 Americans will disconnect when they attack.
  4. parusnik
    parusnik 4 December 2019 06: 11
    +2
    In the meantime, Turkey is looking at the Su-35, but does not refuse the idea of ​​acquiring the F-35. Ideally, Ankara would love to acquire both Russian and American aircraft.
    ..... We will follow the events
    1. NIKN
      NIKN 4 December 2019 14: 08
      0
      There is some one-sided analysis, Turkey was initially included in the f35 program and built production facilities for this ... This, in my opinion, is crucial for making a decision. They have already invested and not a little ...., as if here on the hook they are so far ... request So they turn around, looking for a compromise of some sort ...
  5. rotmistr60
    rotmistr60 4 December 2019 06: 48
    0
    Turkey is looking at the Su-35, but also does not refuse the idea to acquire the F-35.
    On the one hand, both yours and ours, but on the other, you still have to give up something. The Americans with an effort "swallowed" (but it has not yet reached the stomach) the purchase of the S-400, and the possible acquisition of the Su-35 will certainly be a crushing blow, which they cannot afford.
    1. Zaurbek
      Zaurbek 4 December 2019 07: 14
      +3
      If you move away from NATO, the Turks need heavy fighters to control the Mediterranean, but here the choice is small.
  6. Slavutich
    Slavutich 4 December 2019 07: 02
    0
    The probability of this is very high. For example, Americans can do this if there is a conflict between Turkey and Greece (or Cyprus), or if the Turkish Air Force begins to use the F-35 against the Kurdish militia.

    In the case of Russian aircraft, such risks are minimized.

    Those. in the case of the Russian Federation - buy weapons who wants and fight with whom they want, just to buy?
  7. rocket757
    rocket757 4 December 2019 07: 07
    -1
    Why did Turkey think about buying a Su-35?

    So, it seems, a "penguin" is offered to him with such a good load, which, like weights on his feet, can be immersed when you don't expect.
    In short, the matter is not at all clear ... see the boom.
  8. Professor
    Professor 4 December 2019 07: 24
    +6
    Su-35 or F-35: what choice will Turkey make?

    It is not Turkey who chooses here, but Trump. It will allow Turkey to buy the F-35 and the Turks will "choose" the F-35, and will not allow the Turks to "choose" the Su-35.
    1. Tank jacket
      Tank jacket 4 December 2019 07: 34
      +6
      S-400 Turks chose, although they were imposed on Patriot.
      1. Professor
        Professor 4 December 2019 08: 24
        +2
        Quote: Tank jacket
        S-400 Turks chose, although they were imposed on Patriot.

        That is why Trump is now deciding. The production of F-35 components is already being withdrawn from Turkey.
        1. Altai72
          Altai72 4 December 2019 09: 23
          +3
          I do not think that the Turks will be at a loss from this. Financially, maybe yes, but they will increase their geopolitical and strategic dividends. And in terms of production, they will find something to download.
          1. Professor
            Professor 4 December 2019 10: 23
            0
            Quote: Altai72
            I do not think that the Turks will be at a loss from this. Financially, maybe yes, but they will increase their geopolitical and strategic dividends. And in terms of production, they will find something to download.

            What are you talking about? The United States transferred technology to manufacture these components to Turkey, rather than using Turkish technology. Now with these technologies or most of them will have to part. The Turks themselves are not capable of anything.

            Geopolitically, the Turkish economy will come kirdyk even from partial US sanctions. Remember the story of aluminum?

            Quote: Tank jacket
            And if again the US embassy sets up a color revolution, how can you protect the sky from democracy? Suddenly Erdogan will be declared a tyrant? Here the partners will turn off the F-35 remotely and that’s it.

            Countries where there is democracy, color revolutions are not terrible. But Erdogan needs to fear only his people and only him. And here neither S-400 nor Su-35 will help.
            1. Altai72
              Altai72 4 December 2019 11: 49
              +1
              Are you sure that the Turks are not capable of anything? In any case, they were able to save the Jews from the Spaniards and the Portuguese - you must remember that. And then remember how these same Turks forced the Americans to pay tribute to them in 1784. And you say "not capable")))
              1. Professor
                Professor 4 December 2019 13: 50
                +3
                Quote: Altai72
                Are you sure that the Turks are not capable of anything? In any case, they were able to save the Jews from the Spaniards and the Portuguese - you must remember that. And then remember how these same Turks forced the Americans to pay tribute to them in 1784. And you say "not capable")))

                I am sure. I carefully monitor their PC and MIC in particular.
            2. Altai72
              Altai72 4 December 2019 11: 52
              +3
              The Berber Treaty is the only American legal document concluded in a foreign language, and the only one under which America paid tribute to another people. Signed
              the contract is the first US president George Washington. Washington's successor in power in the USA
              Thomas Jefferson, immediately after his inauguration in 1801, tried to withdraw from the treaty by refusing to pay annual fees and even sent a group of frigates to “defend US interests” in the Mediterranean, thereby initiating the Barbary War. Despite the fact that the confrontation came with varying success (it should be noted the success of the Ottoman forces, which managed to
              capture the flagship of the new US Navy frigate Philadelphia), ultimately for
              America, it turned out to be useless.
              https://bigra.livejournal.com/266787.html
            3. Altai72
              Altai72 4 December 2019 15: 07
              +2
              Erdogan does not need to be afraid of his people Oleg. It was the people who stood up for him during the coup. There was not a single case of civil disobedience. There was only a pack of pro-American generals in the Turkish army, who filled their faces and put them in place. Of course, you don’t like this, your plan didn’t go bad, I understand you. But you turned down about the people, I am very knowledgeable about those events and about the political situation in Turkey. You can hold anyone here, but not me hi
              1. Professor
                Professor 5 December 2019 11: 34
                +1
                Quote: Altai72
                Erdogan does not need to be afraid of his people Oleg. It was the people who stood up for him during the coup. There was not a single case of civil disobedience. There was only a pack of pro-American generals in the Turkish army, who filled their faces and put them in place. Of course, you don’t like this, your plan didn’t go bad, I understand you. But you turned down about the people, I am very knowledgeable about those events and about the political situation in Turkey. You can hold anyone here, but not me hi

                Are you telling tales to whom? Are the crowds on the streets dressed as generals?
                1. Altai72
                  Altai72 7 December 2019 20: 37
                  0
                  Professor, the biggest storyteller is you. Crowds of people came out to support Erdogan. No need to veil the facts. I am normal towards Jews, but you should not go too far.
                  1. Professor
                    Professor 7 December 2019 22: 12
                    0
                    Quote: Altai72
                    Professor, the biggest storyteller is you. Crowds of people came out to support Erdogan. No need to veil the facts. I am normal towards Jews, but you should not go too far.

                    Oh well. Support?


                    1. Altai72
                      Altai72 8 December 2019 01: 13
                      0
                      In the first video, a rally in support of Erdogan after the coup literally. Vidos was redrawn and for your information very poorly))) In the second video, a protest in connection with the cutting down of a park in Istanbul. This is about two years before the coup, the same grantor-sorosovtsy, that is, Istanbul Maydans. America pierced there, although they invested enough
                      1. Professor
                        Professor 8 December 2019 07: 44
                        0
                        Quote: Altai72
                        In the first video, a rally in support of Erdogan after the coup literally. Vidos was redrawn and for your information very poorly))) In the second video, a protest in connection with the cutting down of a park in Istanbul. This is about two years before the coup, the same grantor-sorosovtsy, that is, Istanbul Maydans. America pierced there, although they invested enough

                        And there is. At all rallies against Erdogan "only a pack of pro-American generals in the Turkish army, who were stuffed in the face and put in place"for the people cannot but support the sun-faced and divine president.
                        https://actu.orange.fr/monde/videos/turquie-manifestations-anti-erdogan-a-istanbul-CNT0000019HExB.html

                        Young generals, however, are in the Turkish army, and there are a lot of them. lol
            4. IS-80_RVGK2
              IS-80_RVGK2 4 December 2019 19: 41
              0
              Quote: Professor
              Countries where there is democracy, color revolutions are not terrible.

              Democracy will crush them with an iron hand. laughing
            5. Ka-52
              Ka-52 5 December 2019 09: 18
              0
              Countries where there is democracy, color revolutions are not terrible.

              nedoprofessor, you are already completely absurd nonsense to write laughing
              something to the Arabian monarchies, where democratically only heads are cut in squares, the revolutionary movement does not seek laughing we don’t need to retype the White House stamps here
        2. Tank jacket
          Tank jacket 4 December 2019 09: 43
          +1
          And if again the US embassy sets up a color revolution, how can you protect the sky from democracy? Suddenly Erdogan will be declared a tyrant? Here the partners will turn off the F-35 remotely and that’s it.
    2. Tusv
      Tusv 4 December 2019 08: 19
      +2
      I would take both. Even if the Penguin is super good, it does not know how to patrol with a quick interception of the problem. Yes, it’s very expensive to do the usual Su-35go routine
      1. Voyager
        Voyager 4 December 2019 09: 09
        0
        This is the joke that the S-400 hurried. First it was necessary to get a couple of dozen F-35s for the Turks and then S-400. You can even barter)
  9. Chaldon48
    Chaldon48 4 December 2019 08: 13
    +2
    I think it is profitable for Turkey to buy the SU-35, together with the Turkish Stream, this is a very good burner for Trump's head!
    1. 2 Level Advisor
      2 Level Advisor 4 December 2019 08: 51
      +1
      the trick is that the Turks have a task not to spoil Trump or to do well for us, but to do well only for ourselves .. and if the F35 is not really sold to them, they will buy a Su-35. What I doubt, due to the fact that the minke whales also understand this and still sell the F35.
  10. Avior
    Avior 4 December 2019 08: 20
    +2
    . In particular, the F-35 is positioned as the fastest and most supersonic aircraft, but many aviation experts do not agree with this presentation of information about the American fighter

    Dear Author, and by whom is he so positioned?
    It’s terribly interesting to know
    And even more interesting to know who does not agree that it is supersonic?
  11. Air force
    Air force 4 December 2019 10: 03
    0
    The title of the article is not correct, at the moment Turkey cannot choose F35, since F35 has been denied. As for me, in this particular case it should sound like this: Will Turkey give up the S400 and Su35, in favor of the F35. Turkey has such a choice. Turkey has a choice, to be the second largest army in NATO and not have the privileges in this NATO that Turkey expects, to carry out stupid orders, for example, to defend the Balts, pay tribute, wait for a color revolution, indulge the whims of the White House and wait for entry to the European Union until the moment when this European Union begins to fall apart and have other "nishtyaki" ordinary vassal. In this situation, Turkey can follow the path of close rapprochement with Russia. Here she can become a full-fledged partner whose opinion is taken into account, in 4 years Erdogan's ambitions will be satisfied, Akkuyu Nuclear Station, Turetsy Stream, the latest Russian weapons, control over the traffic of refugees to Europe. And a little further in time, ideally, the withdrawal from NATO and the creation in the Middle East of a new "Security Structure" and joint cooperation between the Russian Federation, Iran, Turkey, Syria, China, and further down the list. Yes, there are many contradictions, but with the participation of Russia, an acceptable solution to these contradictions can be found. As for me, the Anglo-Saxons have the motto "divide and rule", while Russia has "unite and rule together." P / S, of course, you might think that this is generally a big "multi-move" on the part of NATO, to lull the vigilance, buy the latest weapons from a potential enemy, force the enemy to invest in expensive projects, expose the flanks by trusting. And at the "X" hour, stick a knife in the back. Although the Kremlin calculates all this better than we do, having information about which we do not even know a small fraction.
  12. maden.usmanow
    maden.usmanow 4 December 2019 10: 37
    0
    It seems that Donald Trump and his entourage know the true price of the latest fighter


    Trump means he worked in the aviation bureau.
  13. maden.usmanow
    maden.usmanow 4 December 2019 10: 48
    +1
    Turkey needs F 35B for its UDC.
    There is no analogue in the arms market, just not.
  14. The comment was deleted.
  15. Ka-52
    Ka-52 5 December 2019 09: 03
    0
    first look at the photo - it seemed that Zelensky was sitting on the courts near Erdogan laughing
  16. Mihail42
    Mihail42 6 December 2019 10: 34
    0
    Why should the Turks not resell their C - 400 to Iran?