Frigate "Perry" as a lesson for Russia: machine-designed, massive and cheap

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Oliver Hazard Perry Frigates

Studying the foreign experience of naval construction is extremely useful, especially now, when there is an ideological crisis in naval construction, on the one hand, and on the other, there is clearly a kind of turning point.

It is especially important to study the experience of the most successful states in naval affairs. Currently, this is, of course, the United States during the late Cold War. It was then that the Americans managed to show the highest level of organization since the Second World War, the correct setting of goals, the economical use of budget funds for secondary projects and the concentration of efforts in the main, breakthrough areas.



One of the brightest pages in stories The construction of American post-war sea power is the program for the creation of frigates of the Oliver Hazard Perry class. Although a frigate of its own could hardly have found a place in the Russian Navy, the approaches that were used in its design and creation would have been more than useful. It is worth exploring the issue in more detail.

Zumwalt Fleet


In 1970, Admiral Elmo Zumwalt became Commander of Naval Operations. His main concern was the creation of a decisive advantage in power over the rapidly developing Navy of the USSR. For this, Zumwalt proposed the concept of High-Low Navy - fleet, which would have a number of complex, expensive and highly efficient strike ships, and a large number of massive, simple and cheap warships, the technical perfection and combat power of which could be somewhat cut down for the sake of lowering prices.

Frigate "Perry" as a lesson for Russia: machine-designed, massive and cheap

Elmo Russell Zumwalt

This approach allowed the US Navy to have “maximum fleet for the same money” and not lose in striking power - mainly expensive and complex ships could act in the direction of the main strike, simple and cheap on the rest.

Of all Zumwalt's projects, only one was able to be realized - the “patrol frigate”, and after that it was just the frigate of the Oliver Hazard Perry class. It was one of the low navy ships, a low-tech ship, simplified to lower prices. And it was precisely because of its low price that it became massive, as few other ships of the rocket era are 71 units, of which 16 are ships built outside the United States, allies.

In the conditions when the war in Vietnam was already lost, and Reagan with his “Reaganomics” had not yet come to power, it was possible to ensure such proportions only by creating a truly cheap ship. And the Americans did it.

"Design at a given cost" as a standard


In the article "We are building a fleet. Forces of the Poor", Issues of creating ships" at a given cost "are designated as fundamentally important. This is so, and you can see how it works on the example of Perry.

From the very beginning, to reduce prices, the Navy took the following measures: a preliminary design was created by the Navy officers, it was decided to limit the maximum cost and not step over this bar, changing the design of the ship to meet the required prices, to reduce the required power of the power plant and, according to its size and fuel mass, it was supposed to fight for every pound of frigate mass.

At the same time, an innovative decision was made - the outline design of the ship according to the given criteria was compiled by the computer in 18 hours, then people only finalized it. This led to a record time for the development of the ship and low costs. A noteworthy fact - the Navy engineer who created the software was 36-year-old African-American woman, Ray Jean Montague, actually the "mother" of the modern American warship design school.



Ray Jean Montague then and in 2017 year. "Mom" computer-aided design of ships and ships, died at 2018.

The strange and unconventional design of Perry is largely due to the fact that it was not man who invented it.

The ship’s design used seemingly controversial decisions, but then they paid off.

The most famous such solution is a single-shaft main power plant.

Domestic experts have criticized this decision and are still criticizing it. However, do not consider Americans stupid. They thought it over very well.

The single-shaft power plant "Perry" was created on the basis of "half" the power plant of the destroyer "Spruence". This automatically guaranteed a huge saving for the Americans both in the development of the power plant itself and in the cost of its life cycle subsequently during operation. Savings on everything from parts to training personnel. In addition, this saved the displacement, which means that it allowed to do with less power and smaller sizes of the power plant. According to the calculations of American experts, the minimum increase in displacement that could be required for any twin-shaft power plant on such a ship would be 400 tons. Without any increase in useful volumes in the ship.

From the point of view of operation, the Americans had a great and positive experience with single-shaft installations - Knox class frigates and the previous Brooke / Garcia types were equipped with single-shaft power plants.

Of course, it was necessary to make sure that it was the gas turbine single-shaft power plant that would not throw any surprise, for which special ground-based test benches were built. These engineering-friendly structures made it possible to save a ton of money on refining the power plant.


There was a question about the survivability of a ship with such a power plant.

After analyzing the experience of World War II, where single-warships were also used, the Americans found out that not a single ship was actually lost due to the single-shaft scheme. Ships with a similar scheme sank, but an analysis of their combat damage showed that a two-shaft ship would not have survived this. On the other hand, cases when ships with a single-shaft power plant experienced extensive damage and remained afloat were also not uncommon. The conclusion was simple - a single-shaft GEM has almost no effect on survivability - combat experience spoke about this.

However, questions remained about the loss of course and maneuvering when mooring. In order for the ship with one propeller and one rudder to get the necessary maneuverability, in the front of the hull propeller-driven units with 380 horsepower were provided. each with electric drive.

These devices were also used as backup ones; when a power plant failed, the ship could go through calm water at a speed of up to five knots. A little later, these calculations were confirmed in a combat situation.


Auxiliary screw-steering units.

Thus, the decision to use a single-shaft GEM was not just correct, it also saved a lot of money and about 400 tons of displacement.

A similar solution is placement weapons aboard a ship.

Domestic experts criticized it no less than a single-shaft power plant, pointing to small and suboptimal angles of fire with an air defense system and the Mk.75 artillery gun (76-mm, manufactured in the USA under the license of the Oto Melara company).


Location 76-mm guns.


"One-armed bandit" - universal PU Mk.13

Partly they are right, the angles are not optimal. But such questions cannot be considered in isolation from the conditions under which and against which enemy this ship was to be used.

The US Navy saw the sea missile carrier as the main and most dangerous enemy Aviation Navy of the USSR. However, the actions of single frigates or groups of them against the Soviet Navy were not planned. "Perry" could be in battle against the Tu-22 and Tu-16, but with the highest degree of probability they would be part of a large battle group, which would include missile cruisers and destroyers, and there would be a lot of frigates in the warrant . And with a collective defense, neither their air defense systems, nor their guns would simply have to deflect all-angle attacks. And in relatively simple conditions, against a weak enemy, limited angles would not be a problem - a ship can turn quite quickly and take an air target into the firing sector, and this speed usually surprises an unprepared person.

A definite minus can be considered one channel for the guidance of air defense systems - "Perry" could not fire more than one target at the same time with its anti-aircraft missiles. But - again, one must take into account the purpose of the ships. The frigate was not supposed to fight as the British then fought in the Falklands, for this the United States had other ships.

And the typical opponent of the Perry would be a single Tu-95RC, or Tu-142, which would lead Soviet submarines to an American convoy in the ocean - in the 70's, when these frigates were being designed, the Americans saw the Soviet threat just like that (which was mainly wrong, but they found out about this much later). That is, here everything was "out of place." In general, the Perry air defense cannot be considered weak, it could hit an air target at a distance of up to 80 kilometers, and the fire performance of the Mk.13 launcher, the famous "one-armed bandit", was high at that time - according to American data, it could fire one SAM every 10 seconds, although some domestic experts thought it was faster, up to 7,5 seconds per rocket. SAM-1 missiles themselves, even now, cannot be considered bad, although they are significantly outdated compared to modern missiles.

The universal launcher, with which Perry used rockets, made it possible to complete any combination of SAM missiles and Harpoon anti-ship missiles. The drums of the installation contained 40 missiles, while the time for launching the Harpoon was high - reloading the installation of this missile and its launch required 20 seconds of time instead of 10 for the missiles. But these missiles could be many. In the Russian Navy, for example, only 1 rank ships have a larger total number of missiles.


Recharge Mk.13
Thus, the placement of weapons on board the ship corresponded to its purpose with all the external irrationality.

But at the same time, it, like the single-shaft power plant, helped to significantly reduce displacement. So, an attempt to transfer the gun to the bow of the ship would lead to a significant lengthening of the hull, which would increase the cost of the ship, would require an increase in the power of the power plant and would increase the required amount of fuel on board. In general, according to the results of frigate design, the Americans came to the conclusion that, using traditional design approaches, the frigate would have about 5000 tons of displacement with the same composition of weapons, while with “design at a given cost” it would have a full displacement of 4200 tons .

Moreover, with such a displacement, the Americans were also able to reserve a place on the ship for a towed hydroacoustic station, which later turned the Perry into an anti-submarine, although it was not intended to be such.

It turned out to pack two helicopters into the same displacement. For comparison, in the Soviet Navy, two helicopters carried the BNK of the 1155 project with a total displacement of 7570 tons.


Two hangars, view from the stern

A major minus was the absence of ASROC anti-submarine missiles on the ship. But initially the frigate was not conceived as an anti-submarine in the first place, it had to act in conjunction with ships that had such missiles in the second, it had a “long arm” in the form of two helicopter-carrying torpedoes in the third and its own 324-mm torpedoes for self-defense and close combat in the fourth. When working in a group, the presence of a large number of helicopters and highly efficient towed ASGs among frigates made them effective anti-submarines without PLURs, and reduced to zero the importance of a weak padded ASU. Even later, the introduction of systems for the mutual exchange of information between ships of the US Navy turned any ship’s battle group into a single complex and reduced the disadvantages of a single ship to zero.

Vitality


The frigates were very popular in military operations of the U.S. Navy. They were used to protect shipping during the “tanker war” in the Persian Gulf and during the Persian Gulf War in 1991.


Perry class frigate with another Gulf War veteran — Iowa class battleship

In this case, a series of episodes occurred that characterize well how well this ship was made.

The first of these can be considered an incident with the frigate "Stark" related to this type of ship, which was hit by Iraqi missiles "Exoset". Much has been said about this, so you just need to give an assessment of what has happened.


"Stark" on that bad day

The plane from which the missiles were launched was discovered by the frigate in 20.55, and the attack occurred only after fifteen minutes. All this time, the radar of the ship "led" the Iraqi plane. At the same time, monstrous mistakes were made in the organization of the shift in the BIC in the performance of their duties, for example, when an unknown plane turned over to a frigate, the air defense system operator was in the toilet and no one took any measures to pull it out or replace it with someone missile attack itself.

With medium discipline and at least somewhat performing their duties, the aircraft would have been shot down long before missiles were launched on the ship.

The Stark attack does not in any way testify to his weakness as a warship; it was not in vain that the frigate commander wanted to be brought to justice for everything that happened.

But the combat survivability of "Perry" incident characterizes very well. About five years earlier, the Exocet missile, for the same reason (egregious disorder of personnel), hit the English destroyer Sheffield. As you know, this ship was lost. "Stark" was restored and returned to duty.

True, a reservation must be made here - the Americans were infinitely better than the British in terms of the struggle for vitality. Partly less damage to the Stark is due to this. But only in part.

More interesting from the point of view of Perry’s ability to “hold the blow” was another incident in the Persian Gulf - the bombing of the frigate Samuel Roberts on the Iranian mine on 14 on April 1988. The ship ran into an anchor mine, which exploded under the keel. The results of the blast were: partial separation of the keel from the hull, rupture of the welds of the hull and slow-going destruction of the ship’s set, failure from the foundations of the main power plant, its failure, flooding of the engine room, shutdown of diesel generators and blackout of the ship.

For the vast majority of ships in the world, this would be the end. But not in this case. The destruction of the hull turned out to be slow enough for the Americans to pull the diverging elements from the inside with cables and prevent the complete destruction of the ship. In five minutes, the emergency parties restored power supply. After that, the ship on auxiliary propeller columns left the minefield. Subsequently, the ship was restored and continued to serve.


Roberts exported after blasting

The U.S. Navy traditionally pays great attention to the fight for survivability, as most American sailors are both skilled firefighters, training to fight for survivability takes place simply in a sweatshop, and very strict requirements are imposed on the design of ships in this regard. So, for 1988-1991 years, three American ships were blown up by mines and not one was lost.

“Perry”, with all its cheapness and using less expensive steel grades than is commonly used on warships, was also created in compliance with all standards in terms of combat survivability. Like all American ships, frigates of this class passed shock trials - tests with a powerful underwater explosion near the hull, which was not supposed to cause the ship any malfunctions.


Shock trials

A very interesting example of the survivability of frigates of the Perry type is given by their use as floating targets. The video below shows the results of many hours of air strikes inflicted on the empty hull of a ship, on which, of course, no one is fighting for any survivability. During the SINKEX-2016 ship sinking exercises, this frigate was subsequently attacked by a submarine of the South Korean Navy that drove the Harpoon into it, then the Australian frigate hit Perry with another Harpoon, and the helicopter from it hit ATGM Hellfire, then Orion sequentially hit the frigate "Harpoon" and UR "Maverick", then the "Harpoon" flew into it from the Ticonderoga class cruiser, then the American helicopters hit it with several more Hellfires, after which it fired the F-18 unguided bomb, then controlled by a heavy bomb B-52, inally, the curtain of the American submarines torpedo struck him Mk.48.

After that, the 12 watch remained afloat after that.


As you can see, "design at a given cost" does not mean low survivability of the ship.

Building.


"Perry" were to become a mass series of ships of the US Navy and they became her. In many respects, this was due to the fact that even during the design of the ship, it was possible to build it on as many shipyards as possible. In addition, the design of the ship was created taking into account the need to save money on its construction. Even outwardly, the “Perry” looks like a ship formed by simple forms, the superstructure has a shape close to rectangular and is formed by flat panels, which in a significant number of cases intersect at right angles.

This was due to the need to simplify the production of hull structures and reduce metal consumption, and this goal was achieved.

However, something else was interesting - the design of the ship provided for its block assembly, but it also made it possible for the shipbuilding company to form these blocks in different ways. According to its decision, the shipyard could enlarge the blocks or vice versa, divide each block during assembly into smaller blocks and merge them in the right order. This made it possible to build the Perry anywhere.


Section of the frigate hull.

During the construction of the ship, there was only one major structural change, when the hull of the ships was extended to provide the base for longer SH-70 helicopters. PF except for this, the Perry was built in a long standard series, which again led to savings.

It is not surprising that these ships were also built in Australia, Spain and Taiwan.

"Perry" has been used repeatedly in hostilities. During Operation Mantis in the Persian Gulf, a Perry-class frigate destroyed an oil production platform, which the Iranians used as bases for attacks on shipping, and another ship of this class participated in a naval battle against the Iranian destroyer. During the Gulf War in 1991, the frigate was used as a carrier for helicopters operating against Iraqi platforms, landed airborne assault forces, and destroyed Iraqi targets on oil platforms with artillery fire. In fact, the “Perry” had to fight clearly in accordance with what it was originally intended for, even when it was invented in the Navy led by Elmo Zumwalt.

Currently, these ships are still in service with the Navy of Turkey, Poland, Taiwan, Egypt, Pakistan and Bahrain. Their military career continues.

Lessons for Russia


What conclusions for the domestic fleet and shipbuilding can be drawn from the program of these frigates? Of course, the Russian Navy does not need such ships, our tasks are significantly different from the US. But it would be nice to borrow approaches.

Firstly, it is the "Design at a given cost." When, relatively speaking, a power plant can be any, but not more expensive than a certain price, and with a limited cost of operation. And also weapons, hull and all other subsystems. This is often not applicable to ships that perform strike missions “at the forefront”, in which case they have to sacrifice economies for efficiency, but for ships that perform various less complex tasks, “Designing for a Given Cost” is what allows you to have “more fleet for those same money ”, which is often critical, and for Russia with its specific problems it will always be critical.

Secondly, standardization. Identical ships, modernization by "blocks", the impossibility of revising the performance characteristics of each order, as is the case with us. In principle, this has already been said more than once, but it will not be superfluous.

Thirdly, designing ships in such a way that it can be built on the maximum number of shipyards. If an aircraft carrier in the United States can only be assembled on one slipway, then small ships can be built in many places. As a result, it becomes possible to receive large series of ships in a short time. A large series is a reduction in prices, with a serious decrease.

In our country, it’s possible to build only RTOs at any plant (in the form in which the rest of the ships were designed), the same 20380 corvette in Zelenodolsk cannot be built, on the other hand, even when it was possible to lay ships at different shipyards, they are mainly gave the "Northern shipyard".

But the most important thing - “Perry” was the result of a vision of the future of the US Navy for the next minimum of a decade, and the vision was justified. This project was part of a large and completely unrealized High-Low Navy concept, the purpose of which was to find a way out of the contradiction between the required number of ships and the budget for them. And the Americans eventually found this way out. We, with our incomparably smaller money, with our gigantic gaps in the combat strength (the same minesweepers or ships capable of fighting submarines), with our neighbors from Turkey to Japan and the absence of allies, do not even see a problem.

What would happen if Russia was guided by "American" approaches in the construction of a surface fleet? How would a similar approach to shipbuilding programs look in the domestic version? Would he be successful?

We can easily answer this question. In the chaos of military programs, we have one positive example, a very successful one, the success of which is due to approaches to work similar to American ones. They developed in many ways by chance, but even in this form led to success.

“Varshavyanka” as a domestic “analogue”


Among the stupidity and chaos of our naval shipbuilding, there is an example of a directly opposite phenomenon. Long typical series of ships modernization by “blocks” from series to series, and not on every ship is crazy, the quiet evolution was initially not an ideal, but generally quite successful project and as one of the results - quick construction if necessary, at a very reasonable price. And serious combat effectiveness.

We are talking about submarines of the 636 series of Varshavyanka. Initially, they were not intended for the Navy, but were an export project, which is probably why no one from the Main Directorate or the Ministry of Defense climbed into the dark 2000 and later into the evolution of the project, and foreign customers calmly and measuredly paid for the construction of ships, unlike regularly falling into different fornication like "Poseidon" or racing with wildly changing each other projects of the Ministry of Defense ships, which in many respects because of this always lacked money to fulfill contractual obligations.


Varshavyanka is an example of the right approach to shipbuilding in Russia, an approach similar to the American

Since 1997, 20 of such boats have been built for foreign customers. Of course, their equipment was different from Customer to Customer, but not so much that, as a result, all “foreign” boats belong to the three 636, 636М and 636.1 projects. When the 677 Lada submarine project for the Russian Navy stalled, someone very clever organized the purchase of these submarines for the Navy. The first six went to the Black Sea Fleet, and on Monday, November 25, another such boat joined the ranks of the Pacific Fleet.

“Varshavyanka” with all their shortcomings still retain combat potential. They carry the Caliber KR on board, and even today they have good stealth. Their hypothetical modernization is able to leave them valuable warships for another decades. They, of course, are already outdated, but they will still serve with rearmament.

Compare the approaches to their design with Perry. As well as the Perry, the 636 project boats have design features that have emerged as a means to reduce the cost and simplify their design - for example, the absence of a hatch for loading torpedoes.

As in the case of Perry, Varshavyanka has more or less developed subsystems. Like the Perry, they are being built in a large series. Like the Perry, they are not super-efficient warships and are not oversaturated with the latest technology.

Total?

And the result is this. The first "Warsaw" for the Navy was laid in the 2010 year. Today there are already seven units in the ranks, the eighth is preparing to launch. The boat is to be built in 3 years. The price is quite affordable for our military budget. And if all of a sudden right now you start equipping them with anti-torpedoes, which they really need, new, more efficient batteries, modern torpedoes with modern telecontrol, improved computer systems that can increase the efficiency of the SAC, they will still be built in three years.

To date, 1997 of such boats have been built since 27, one is almost ready and two are under construction. At one shipyard. In the 2020 year, when the Admiralty Shipyards surrendered the Volkhov to the Pacific Fleet, the statistics of this series will look like this - 28 boats for the 23 year.

Varshavyanka is the domestic Perry, just underwater and mainly exported.

This is direct evidence that when we start working as Americans, we get the same results as Americans. Absolutely the same, no worse. This is a gag that should be silenced by anyone who doubts out loud that Russia can, if she wants, moreover, calmly and measuredly, without tears and super-efforts. Can't we work like them? We are already working like them, just at the separate Admiralty Shipyards and at their related plants. And the ships turn out to be quite valuable, never a missile gunboats or some kind of "patrol" squalor.

Of course, the Perry frigates were built in a much larger series than our submarines, and faster. But the similarity of the success of “Perry” in them and “Varshavyanka” surprises us.

When Russia finally ends with a madhouse with naval construction, when the orders of the ships and their quantity will be derived from the sane and realistic concept of the development of the Navy, and not as it is now, then we will be able to learn from the American experience a lot of useful things for ourselves, too. Not by grasping and by chance, but systematically and consciously. And some of this, albeit not in surface shipbuilding, we have already successfully tested in practice.
  • Alexander Timokhin
  • Wikipedia commons, US Navy, seaforces.org, TheDrive.com, Alexey Danichev / RIA Novosti
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  1. +30
    2 December 2019 18: 30
    The computer-aided design method is the enemy of "cutting".
    And about the "Varshavyanka" well, VERY by the way, there are "anti-torpedoes", but they are not included in the ammunition load. And the coils with fiber-optic cable for remotely controlled torpedoes are not on the torpedo case, but on the torpedoes themselves.
    1. +6
      2 December 2019 21: 15
      And about the "Varshavyanka" well, VERY by the way, there are "anti-torpedoes", but they are not included in the ammunition load.


      As well as on nuclear submarines, although they are provided for by the state contract. But there is such a "Santa Barbara" around AT that it is not known when they will be at such a pace.

      And the coils with fiber optic cable for remote-controlled torpedoes are not on the TA body, but on the torpedoes themselves.


      I am a little aware. But the towed coil is a stone age. By weight of reasons.
    2. +1
      3 December 2019 19: 06
      If the ship is as good as the author writes. Then why did the mattress mats begin to be taken out of service rather quickly and "crouched" to their "sixes but NATO" - Greece, Turkey, etc.? They even wanted to "sell" Banderland
      1. +2
        4 December 2019 00: 14
        Last Perry retired in 2015. Is it fast? Just in case, with the collapse of the USSR, these ships lost their tasks, and nevertheless, their service after this lasted more than 30 years.
        1. 0
          4 December 2019 19: 29
          So that's the last one. And when did the first ones leave the "NATO six" and on pins and needles? I answer - they began to sell them to the Turks in 1994-95, i.e. they served mattress mats for 14-15 years. And the one about which you said that you wrote off in 2015 - how long did it sit in the sludge?
          1. +1
            4 December 2019 21: 49
            USS Duncan in service since 1980, transferred to Turkey in 1999, 19 years in the US Navy
            USS Samuel Elliot Morrison in service since 1980, transferred to Turkey in 2002, the U.S. Navy for 22 years
            USS Estocin in service since 1981, transferred to Turkey in 2003, the U.S. Navy for 22 years
            USS Clifton Sprague in service since 1981, transferred to Turkey in 1997, 16 years in the US Navy
            USS John A. Moore, in service since 1981, transferred to Turkey in 2000, 19 years in the US Navy
            USS Antrim, in service since 1981, was handed over to Turkey in 1997, sucks since 1996, has been in the US Navy for 15 years and 1 year in storage.
            USS Flatley, in service since 1981, handed over to Turkey in 2001, sucks since 1996, 15 years in the US Navy, 4 years in storage

            All ships from the "short" series, they could not carry SH-70 helicopters on board, so they could no longer be used in the US Navy after the SH-3 was decommissioned.

            In addition, from 1981 until the mid-nineties in naval affairs, however, a revolution took place.
            Well, the service life was not the same as you write.

            1. 0
              4 December 2019 22: 20
              Data from Wikipedia - "Duncan" transferred to Turkey in 1994, "Clifton Spregue" - 1981 - 1995, "Entrim" - 1981 - 1996, "Flatley" - 1981 - 96, "Jack Williams" - 1981 - 1996, "Copeland" - 1982 - 1996, "Gallery" - 1981 - 1996, "Tisdale" - 1982 - 1996. Service life in the US Navy, on average 14 years, excluding repairs and etc., while other destroyers and frigates serve an average of 25.
              1. +3
                5 December 2019 02: 50
                Firstly, you have the wrong dates, the one who wrote it mixed up the date of transfer to other countries and the date of withdrawal from permanent combat personnel. Double check
                Secondly, I repeat, these ships are from the "short" series, with a short hangar, which did not fit a regular US Navy helicopter at that time. There would still be nothing to do with them, they could no longer be used.
                Thirdly, I repeat again, after the collapse of the USSR, there was no work for these ships for which they were built in such numbers. Why keep them all in line?
                Fourth, at the turn of the 80s-90s, a revolution took place in naval affairs, associated with the emergence of radar with AFAR, new computing systems and protocols for exchanging data between ships, and new anti-aircraft missiles. "Perry" at this point is completely out of date.
                To the heap - their missiles were withdrawn from service due to the expiration of safe storage periods, no one began to make new ones for these ships and they were left without air defense. Again - why should the Americans use them.
                All of the above does not indicate that these ships were poorly invented or made.
                It’s just that the Americans threw off those ships that could not be modernized, since they had to lengthen the hull, which was completely beyond common sense.

                Further - since you like Wikipedia so much, and even Russian, comment on "McCluskey" or "Vandergrift" - how do they fit into your point of view that these ships were getting rid of, as they are some kind of bad?

                other destroyers and frigates serve an average of 25.


                So after the transfer to the Turks, Perry still served, didn't he? You are serving in the US Navy plus your service in other navies. Otherwise, "Kiddas" can be written into bad ships and "Spruyens".

                And the last thing - if you really want to get self-satisfaction by debating the "stupid Americans", then you can always turn on Zadornov and play around, why take my time?
                1. -2
                  5 December 2019 19: 20
                  It is clear - it is clear, all the mattress is the best.)))) I won’t take up your time anymore. In addition to the fact that the mattresses themselves were the first to admit that the troughs turned out to be so-so
                  1. +9
                    5 December 2019 20: 37
                    I don’t serve fermented patriots. Because of you, we have most of the problems in the country. You can’t even voice any problem, immediately a crowd of idiots-approvers flock and starts broadcasting in the style of Zadornov.

                    Zadornov hammered on you grandmother. To myself. And you?

                    If the Yankees were now afraid of Juan de Fuc or Kings Bay from the Gulf of the USSR, sticking their nose out because of the Soviet Navy, your voice could be considered something worthy of attention.

                    But in fact it is impossible. For the future - reality does not depend on what you think about it. You may well consider mattresses to be dredgers and lackeys, but you can never prove it to them at the moment when they come to take your life. At that moment, it will be necessary to show real combat readiness - but it does not work out to build up, because the idiots scream that we are already combat-ready, and the mattresses are ineffective, there is no need to worry.
                    1. +1
                      5 December 2019 21: 29
                      Actually, I live in Ukraine. So, blaming me for kvass patriotism, to put it mildly, is not correct. Regarding which of the mattress fighters I know, not from the Internet, but from personal experience. A lot of show-offs and a little sense, and of course - cooler than mattress covers, only boiled eggs.))))
                      1. +2
                        7 December 2019 23: 00
                        I wonder what experience you had? Fought as part of the US unit? Against him? Or otmutuzili US citizen in a bar? )
                        About the quality of the training of crews for the struggle for survivability, no doubt, I hope?
                        Those who exercise more often are better prepared. In an extreme situation, only skills learned before automatism will work.
                      2. 0
                        9 December 2019 16: 57
                        Regarding the BZZ, you amused me. In the West, they don't really bother with this at all. As soon as the commander realizes that the situation is difficult, the command immediately follows: "Leave the ship." How many Britons have lost ships near the Falklands? And there it was still possible to fight. As for the "Stark" - the mattress makers were just lucky. Not a single important ship system was touched, so they saved it. Otherwise, they would have jumped overboard, since the water in the Persian Gulf is warm.
                      3. 0
                        10 December 2019 03: 33
                        The Britons and the US Navy are not the same thing. "Stark", of course, was lucky, "Cole" too)
                        You can bring an episode with MRC Monsoon (ok 1989), apparently there was no luck. Or an accident on Komsomolets of the same years.
                        Those who train for the present (not only puts marks in the journal) will respond better.
                      4. 0
                        10 December 2019 20: 28
                        I do not see any special differences between the Britons, mattresses, French, etc. Persistent, desperate for fanaticism, the struggle for the survivability of the ship (ship) distinguished Russians, Japanese, and, well, Germans. Western sailors, including civilians, did not show much fanaticism. You can see the results of the First, Second World and post-war period. I don’t know - why so? Either these are questions of morality and humanism, or training at nautical schools or the reluctance to have problems with courts and insurance companies. I do not know.
                      5. 0
                        10 December 2019 21: 40
                        This position gives chauvinism, as I see it. You forgot to give the nickname "Defective French."
                      6. 0
                        10 December 2019 22: 04
                        Full or not, this is not for me. This is to citizen Hitler. I state the fact - did not show much persistence in the BZZhS. I don’t know for what reasons.
                      7. 0
                        11 December 2019 00: 59
                        You are talking about the Second World War. But in it the “Russians” (citizens of the Union) did not particularly show themselves on the sea-ocean, and, indeed, they had nowhere to show themselves. What large naval battles did the Soviet fleet take part in and with what composition? What is the tonnage of warships sunk by them? Against the background of the British / Americans, it is generally invisible.
                        But the latter had many opportunities to show training and examples of its application. It’s important, after all, not to “stupidly” cover holes with bodies, but well-coordinated work that gives results.
                        Immediately about BZZH: the accident on Komsomolets in '89 showed a disgusting level of training, where in most cases there was a show and a “tick” in the magazine. Say, in production, this is common now, I had to see it many times (fire training). A mess of course, but it seems absolutely unacceptable on the Premier League (!).
                        In favor of the US Navy is the creation and active use of "the most heroic ship" - the exact layout of the EM "Orly Burke" for training BZZH.
                      8. +1
                        10 December 2019 11: 36
                        As soon as the commander realizes that the situation is difficult, the command immediately follows: "Leave the ship."


                        Are you talking about "Stark"? About the de-energized Roberts falling apart at the welds? Or out of my head again?
                      9. 0
                        10 December 2019 22: 08
                        Have you personally been on board? Or read it in some horror story? For the last 80 years, all ships and ships have welded hulls. Everyone is fine, but Roberts has cracks along the welds, so maybe these are problems with the quality of welded work, and not with damage as a result of a missile hit?
                      10. +1
                        10 December 2019 23: 58
                        Do you understand what you write in general? Keel separation = destruction of the hull. The keel is the basis of the body kit; it ties this kit together.
                        Roberts showed that there is at least one exception to this axiom, and at least one class of ship, in terms of survivability, is capable of enduring such damage. And don't be confused - the missile hit the Stark.
                        Regarding the abandonment of the ship, the same Americans had the defeat of the RCC frigate, another mine blast, later, in 1991, the cruiser and UDC mine blast and in no case did anyone leave the ship, the crews fought for survivability and saved their ships, all they returned later in service.
                        In this regard, I repeat the question - where do you get the nonsense that you preach here?
                      11. 0
                        11 December 2019 01: 00
                        Obviously, in the reasoning of man, a certain ideological setting is putting pressure ...
                      12. +1
                        11 December 2019 10: 54
                        "Lies and lies in propaganda, agitation and the press discredit the party political work, the naval press and inflict exceptional harm on the cause of the Bolshevik education of the masses."

                        From the directive of the Deputy Commissar of the Navy of the USSR and the Chief of the Main Political Directorate of the Navy, Army Commissioner 2, rank IV Rogova.
                      13. -1
                        11 December 2019 17: 28
                        For a UDC with a displacement of 30 tons, a mine detonation will give the elephant a shot. Regarding the separation of the keel - you do not amuse me. I still graduated from a nautical school, though not a military one. I passed the subject "Ship structure" to "000". If the keel on which everything rests has been torn off the steamer, then excuse me - what is left of it? What was the body holding on to? On keelsons and stringers? So they too should have suffered, because they are attached to the same keel through the frames. I advise you to be more skeptical about mattress horror stories. As a former cop, I can tell you. Truth is what you saw with your own eyes and touched with your own hands. Everything else is information obtained from a source, the reliability of which raises certain doubts.
                    2. +1
                      7 December 2019 23: 24
                      The fleet is built for the task. The mention that slipped through you “if the Yankees were afraid to stick their nose out of the bases”: why do we need this? Just for drawing? To "show the coolness of the Russian nation"? .. Have we built a powerful innovative (highly efficient) economy that can produce and contain a large number of "military toys"? No.
                      For a continental power with a predominantly poor population, a defense-oriented fleet is optimal. The same Hi-Low (only reduced according to capabilities), say, consisting of two main types of warships: a light frigate (2-3-4 thousand tons for acceptable seaworthiness, defensive air defense, UKKS, advanced anti-aircraft defense) and a light destroyer a ' For pr. 1155 (8 thousand tons, good seaworthiness and range, with improved air defense and strike capabilities). And the first, I completely agree, should be possible to build on most shipyards and relatively numerous (20+ pieces). The second is good if there are 10 pcs.
                      A separate issue is the GEM. It makes sense to consider the possibility of using a single-shaft version for the "mass" series. As well as the use of gas turbines (which are and are not bad) instead of diesels (with which everything is complicated) on the maximum number of new ships.
                      1. 0
                        29 January 2020 21: 33
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        say, consisting of two main types of warships: light frigate (2-3-4 thousand tons - for acceptable seaworthiness, defensive air defense, UKKS, developed anti-aircraft defense) and light destroyer
                        A destroyer is a "light" frigate, and a cruiser is a "heavy" one. These are two different approaches to classifying ships. A frigate by displacement (for sailing ships, by the number of gun decks), and a destroyer or cruiser by designation.
                      2. 0
                        30 January 2020 00: 46
                        The names of the types of ships here are arbitrary, the main thing is the functions, displacement and the possibility of construction and maintenance.
                        In addition, IMHO, overwhelming, the desire to oversaturate the ship with weapons (in the same small displacement) - is to the detriment, this is a consequence of stinginess (to get a small "inexpensive Burke"). A mean, as you know, pays ... more.
                        Let's say that what the last “corvettes” are trying to stuff is more suitable for 4000 tons (and we immediately get a ship with good seaworthiness), similarly, the “admiral frigates” with filling would be better placed in 8000 tons of hulls. Without further efforts, “install the S-500”, etc.
                      3. 0
                        30 January 2020 14: 18
                        Quote: 4-th Paradise
                        destroyer or cruiser - as intended.

                        porridge in terms ... bully
                        Quote: 4-th Paradise
                        The destroyer is the "light" frigate.

                        have fun ...
                        EM type “Airl Burke” 1 series 8448 tons (full)
                        Oliver Hazard Perry 4200t frigates
    3. +3
      3 December 2019 21: 29
      This article is another argument in favor of abandoning a small series of super expensive ($ 1,5 billion) atomic monsters of 20000 tons with only 64 Zircon missiles, in favor of a large series of relatively inexpensive ($ 500 million) Super Groshkovs with decent ones for their displacement just 8000 tons with 48 Zircon missiles ...
      1. 0
        7 December 2019 23: 05
        Little is known about Zircon rockets. With the declared characteristics, they will not fit in the UKKS cells, and if they fit, these are other missiles. With a high probability - the modernization of BrahMos.
        A large series of SuperGorshkov is unlikely to succeed (or will be built for decades), judging by the timing of construction in service. IMHO, it was necessary to immediately take the hull, comparable with the BOD 1155 in terms of displacement, and without special problems place the weapons and systems prescribed for Gorshkov.
        1. 0
          8 December 2019 03: 12
          But if we do not believe in the SuperGorshkovs, then the $ 1,5 Leaders can be completely forgotten ... smile
          1. +1
            8 December 2019 09: 54
            Leaders - loss of connection with reality, like the Storm aircraft carriers, or the space battleship Sergius of Radonezh smile
  2. +24
    2 December 2019 18: 32
    The article is very good, but the answer to the question "When Russia finally ends up in a madhouse with naval construction," you can press one - not soon ... request
    1. +14
      2 December 2019 20: 29
      If the madhouse doesn’t bother anyone much, moreover, it is very profitable and convenient for many people, and among these many representatives of specialized research institutes, the defense industry, the leadership of the Ministry of Defense and the Navy, this madhouse will last almost forever. Until the next Tsushima and 22.06.41/XNUMX/XNUMX. But who do we think about this in advance? Probably expect that the next heroes will rake at the cost of their lives the consequences of someone's stupidity, greed, ambition.
      1. +3
        3 December 2019 10: 27
        Quote: UAZ 452
        many representatives of specialized research institutes,

        It looks like there are a lot of them, especially design ones - that's what stamps projects with herds ... request
        as far as I remember, since 2000 we launched corvette projects if more than the rest of the world feel
      2. 0
        8 December 2019 09: 57
        Fortunately, the modern world does not threaten either Tsushima or 22.06.41 (thanks to the brilliant leaders for the "friendship" with the scumbag).
        But it is desirable to have a fleet necessary for coast defense and flag demonstration.
    2. 0
      29 January 2020 21: 41
      Quote: ser56
      Article is very good
      a very controversial statement, given that it contains a bunch of blunders that refute the direction to influence the feelings, not the mind, of the article.
      1. 0
        30 January 2020 14: 14
        more specifically possible?
  3. +11
    2 December 2019 18: 40
    Alexander, good article, you +! the Americans also have a search for mega-supersuper weapons, which are expensive, but they also have more money, but the construction of Perry is really something that can and should be taken into service with "partners" for building a fleet when it urgently needs to be filled with ships
    1. +13
      2 December 2019 21: 40
      In fairness, when in the 80s it was about gaining unconditional dominance over the USSR at sea, the search for mega-superweapon was slammed.
      1. 0
        8 December 2019 10: 00
        Yes, there was no unconditional dominance. For this, in particular, it is necessary to have a strong economy that is not dependent on the prices of hydrocarbons sold to a potential adversary. Leadership has lost touch with reality.
        1. 0
          10 December 2019 11: 32
          By the mid-80s, US domination over us was quite.
          1. -1
            10 December 2019 11: 52
            Could afford. As time has shown, they did not have the goal of "capturing the state of workers and peasants."
            Look: in the 1917s, certain individuals carried out a coup in February, and in October extremists-Bolsheviks (much more frostbitten) made another one, staging, afterwards, the Civil War (which they tried to present as romantic time in the cinema of the 70s). They had a dogmatic perception of the world, the economy. Which led to a total state monopoly and foreign policy through the prism of "Marxism-Leninism", in particular, the taking of a lot of parasites, the support of scoundrels and talkers (Egyptian President Nasser and his behavior after the defeat in the 6 day war).
            All this led to a deterioration in relations with developed countries, dependence on the sale of hydrocarbons and serious problems in the economy (it did not exist in the modern sense).
            The trouble now is that the country's leadership is dreaming of an imperial past, focusing, in particular, on the USSR. As a result, we see attempts to "make friends" with Iran and North Korea (which do not give any advantages), only because "a strong Union had relations with them." In short, IMHO. But it all began precisely with the seizure of power by extremist fanatics in 1917, the “fighting detachment” of which, I recall, was the Cheka (“dedicated to the first Chekists”).
            Which, realizing that they were losing in the economy, sought to spread their influence in the world by other methods, including supporting terrorists and seizing adjacent countries.
  4. -4
    2 December 2019 18: 41
    Class, class ... Type!
    1. +7
      2 December 2019 21: 16
      Like this with us, they have a Class. I’m writing about Americans. With their documents, words, etc.
      1. 0
        3 December 2019 03: 56
        The article shows it, where about our ships, there is a project, a series, everything is for sure. But, you will no longer be able to write for example "... a domestic classmate" Oliver. H. Perry "..."

        Aside, grumbling, I could not find about an interesting feature of modern American ships, something like a "citadel of salvation" as I could formulate, this is when you can leave a dying compartment without prejudice to the survivability of the ship, something like a vertical trunk through all the horizons of the compartment to the deck ... Know something about this? For a long time I read about it in a magazine or in a book.
        1. 0
          3 December 2019 11: 07
          To be honest I have not heard about this
  5. +27
    2 December 2019 18: 44
    By the way, yes, I agree with the author that saturating the Fleet with relatively cheap, standard ships of at least 2nd rank in a relatively short period of time will do him good. At least to block the Soviet-built ships that are out of order due to their wear and tear. And it turns out that in all fleets all the last ships of a new type of completely different projects! Yes, fill each of the fleets with a decent amount of the same type of relatively universal units! No! They made trinity pr.11356 at the Black Sea Fleet, completely different pr.22350 is already going to the Northern Fleet, only the corvettes at pr20380 go to Pacific Fleet, So there are at least 4 BOD pr. 1155. But even those Soviet-built in years ... On The Baltic also has four of the same corvettes ... Although there is some sort of sequence ...
    Riveted now "brawlers" and "karakurt" should generally be considered as a modern analogue of "Rendel" gunboats - small ships for large guns (missiles).
    But the creation of cheap "workhorses" would be very helpful. No one argues that conventionally universal cheap ships are bad in everything, but when the Soviet backlog rusts, there will be practically nothing to replace them with. It is clear that one cannot keep up with China or the United States in quantitative terms, and therefore it is not shameful to use the experience of the enemy. Personally, my opinion ... And then I want to howl from impotence, when we cannot form a combat-ready formation around the same "Kuznetsov" or "Petit", and even about ensuring the actions of my MAPLs and SSBNs, I generally keep quiet ...
    1. +20
      2 December 2019 18: 57
      Quote: Rurikovich
      By the way, yes, I agree with the author that saturating the Fleet with relatively cheap, standard ships of at least 2nd rank in a relatively short period of time will do him good.

      Alas, this is not about us. Our admirals just have an itch to improve projects - and this does not depend on what system is in Russia (just remember the same ITC, which the "naval" officers of the RIF jokingly attributed to the undoubted enemies of the fleet).
      It’s massive to build even the middle peasants, winning in the speed of construction due to unification and a large series of orders? No, why - we would be better off constantly upgrading projects. sad
      1. 0
        3 December 2019 10: 31
        Quote: Alexey RA
        does not depend on what system in Russia (

        nevertheless, it should be noted - there were bright times in this respect - the beginning of the dreadnought race and after the Second World War until the late 60s, when they again began to build white elephants of the 1144 type ... request
    2. +13
      2 December 2019 21: 18
      No! At the Black Sea Fleet, pr.11356 was made, at the Northern Fleet a completely different pr.22350 is already going on, at the Pacific Fleet in general only corvettes go pr.20380
      ,

      Well, actually it was a necessary measure. When it became clear that 22350 were being stalled, the then Advisor to the Minister of Defense for Maritime Affairs, Admiral Suchkov, now deceased, pushed the construction of the 11356 series for the Black Sea Fleet. If this had not been done, now at the Black Sea Fleet there would not have been a single ship capable of performing tasks in the DMZ. So it turned out that they did everything right.
      1. +3
        3 December 2019 10: 33
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        sold the construction of the 11356 series for the Black Sea Fleet.

        they had to be launched 10 years earlier with a series of 12-18 keels - an exhausted export project ... and quietly bring new weapons ... no, let's super-duper frigate 22350, well, finally done in 15 years - we should build it with a series - so no, itchy again - need to be modernized ... request
        1. +2
          3 December 2019 11: 09
          22350 would be done faster if the money went stably. 11356 is a deliberately flawed decision, there was simply no choice. Moreover, the understanding that there was no choice came suddenly.
          1. +3
            3 December 2019 11: 20
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            11356 is a knowingly flawed decision,

            It’s strange that you don’t see - this is just our Perry ... hi The development was built by a large series of 1135. One problem is the engines ... But this is a clean jamb of the specialized fleet department - even on the export ones, I had to take care of creating my own production ... Although, as I read, there were elements of nepotism ...
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            22350 would do faster if the money went stably

            if you read Kartsev’s notes, he gives the thesis - there shouldn’t be many innovations in the tank - otherwise there are problems with the refinement ... request And it is better to bring new systems, such as Polymet, on special experimental ships, rather than parent ones ... request And only after that start the series ...
            1. +3
              3 December 2019 12: 16
              Quote: ser56
              if you read Kartsev’s notes, he gives the thesis - there shouldn’t be many innovations in the tank - otherwise there are problems with the refinement ...

              EMNIP, before Kartsev Tupolev talked about this - they say, a new plane should be no more than half new. Otherwise, it will take a very long time to suffer with it.
              1. +3
                3 December 2019 12: 49
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Tupolev spoke about this

                yes, of course, the ANT spoke about this earlier - Kartsev simply put it off ... hi
    3. 0
      11 December 2019 15: 54
      Namely 2 ranks, and now we see an attempt to “saturate” the fleet with ships of the 3rd rank river-sea ...
  6. +12
    2 December 2019 18: 47
    Thank you for the article. It's high time to push our design bureaus and industry up the ass. And as for the "Varshavyanka" - even here on the website it was slipping that the boats to the Black Sea Fleet had managed to be handed over with outdated hydroacoustics and the absence of some of the instruments.
    Well, actually about the frigate "Oliver H. Perry". A strong trough for escorting ocean convoys and ship groupings, a good anti-submarine, and as part of the KPUG, there is generally a floating nightmare for submarines. Disadvantages - and who does not. I think that the concept of an inexpensive, ubiquitous ship was a success for the enemy.
    1. -7
      2 December 2019 21: 29
      The BS of the Black Sea Fleet submarines in the Middle East based in Tartus, casts doubt on the information about the flaws, these submarines were noted in the hunt for the Astute submarine. It should be noted that these submarines are most often used in databases in Syria.
      1. +5
        2 December 2019 22: 51
        it was these submarines that were noted in the hunt for the Astute submarine.


        Fakes do not need to be repeated. It is technically impossible to drive submarines in Warsaw.
        1. +2
          3 December 2019 02: 51
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          Fakes do not need to be repeated. This is technically impossible
          And why actually ?!
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          ... drive submarines in Warsaw.
          ... Yes, you probably don't need to drive, it seems to me (here you are clearly exaggerating)! But to use in places of deployment and entry into combat service of SSBNs (that is, before they leave, in places where it is most convenient for the enemy to intercept and take them under observation, by "ambush" or early patrolling at an especially low speed), or to protect their bases , interception from penetration into the "bastions" in narrow booths, by ambushes ?! What prevents the diesel "Varshavyanka" to lie down on the bottom (having come out a day earlier) and scare off a sneaking hunter (well, the same "Elk"), who will try like V.Ya. Dudko in "Heroes of Bangor", will decide to hunt for our SSBNs (I think you understand what I mean now) ?! What's not possible ?! It is not necessary to chase, but quiet and unobtrusive Varshavyankas, as it seems to me, are quite capable of being "squeezed" out of the deployment areas (and exits to the BS), where it would be convenient to "take them unnoticed for escort," to potential opponents. Is not it so ?!
          1. +4
            3 December 2019 11: 12
            Astyut has such a low-noise speed that Warsaw, trying to chase after it, will drain the battery in about forty minutes, assuming that it is not fully charged. If fully, then in an hour. PLA easily breaks away from the diesel engine, nothing can be done about it.
            1. +2
              3 December 2019 13: 04
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              Astyut has a low-noise speed such that Warsaw is trying to follow it chase will drop the battery in about forty minutes,
              Dear Alexander, well, right ... You are either inattentive when reading, or you did not want to delve into ... Don't chase, and having secretly discovered the first, squeeze out from the exit point to the SSBN BS, where it would be convenient to intercept it, taking for escort ... And 25 minutes is enough ... !!!, and then, let -
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              PLA easily breaks away from the diesel engine,
              for it (PLA) will not reach the main thing. And the SSBN will come out (through the narrowness, for example, where it would be easy to intercept) invisible on the BS. That is the question.
              1. +2
                3 December 2019 13: 38
                To squeeze out means to reveal oneself, to reveal oneself means to give the enemy from afar to write off the portrait of the boat and lose stealth forever.

                Diesel is an ambush. It can follow the weapon in the narrowness through which the PLA goes, sink it, in theory, too (if it is not detected), well, as it were.

                Squeezing is demonstrative action in any case.
                1. 0
                  3 December 2019 15: 34
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  To squeeze out means to reveal oneself, to reveal oneself means to give the enemy from afar to write off the portrait of the boat and lose stealth forever.
                  Maybe you're right, BUT, is the best result if the enemy nuclear submarine, unnoticed, sits on the tail of our SSBN, and will be able to stealthily (not detected) lead it "on sight", know the route of the cruiser BS ?! Have mercy. Here I am strongly against !!
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  Diesel is an ambush. It can follow the weapon in the narrowness through which the PLA goes, sink it, in theory, too (if it is not detected), well, as it were.
                  In my opinion, this is VERY much more !!!
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  Squeezing is demonstrative action in any case.
                  even so, but in any case harm received will be less than prevented, that's what is important !!! In addition (I just assume) that there is option (2), - having discovered covertly from an ambush, urgently transmit (via communication) data about the location of the hunting enemy PLA, PLO ships and PLO aircraft, to "squeeze it out of the deployment area "by them, and not personally, ie without revealing yourself (if possible)?! ...
                  1. +1
                    3 December 2019 15: 38
                    having discovered covertly from an ambush, urgently transmit (via communication) data about the location of the hunting enemy submarine, the ships of the submarine and the submarine aircraft, for its "squeezing out of the deployment area" by them, and not personally, i.e. without revealing yourself (if possible)?! ...


                    Well, write right away - find and transfer contact laughing
                    This is a completely different matter.

                    And not for the press, so to speak.
                    1. +1
                      3 December 2019 15: 50
                      Quote: timokhin-aa
                      Well, write right away - find and transfer contact
                      This is a completely different matter.
                      I emphasized that this is option (2), i.e. I personally guess, which is, of course, formally more correct and desirable (in theory), but unfortunately in practice (in real time, after the detection of the enemy), technically, it will be much more difficult to implement without starting "escorting the enemy personally" (so as not to lose contact) , and of course there is already a risk of being discovered ... There is already personal skill, and whether the outfit of ASBM ships was correctly selected and placed before the SSBN exit itself, and whether the time and place of the possible appearance of a hunter was correctly calculated to intercept the SSBN .. . etc. and so on. (well, there is already staff work) ...
                      Quote: timokhin-aa
                      And not for the press, so to speak.
                      , don’t worry Alexander, we won’t publish, the press won’t know, and the enemies will tremble, be terrified to be the first to find out (and not how to manage now). :)
    2. 0
      11 December 2019 16: 04
      The ideology of the ruling elites (I recall, those who came to power as a result of the coup of moderate (but with an absolutely cynical attitude towards people) Bolshevik fanatics) made them “theirs”.
      In the Second World War they fought together and they helped us a lot.
      I am sure that the main mistake of modern “leaders” (who want to rule until their own death) is the desire to “return the empire” (keeping in mind the recent version - the USSR) and the attack on the previous Soviet rake, identifying RI and the USSR (who rejected it and opposed it to it) attempts to "make friends" with the Soviet allies-survivors, which the Union supported from ideological (in the absence of pragmatics) considerations. Despite the fact that there is no previous ideology and its failure is clear.
  7. ABM
    +5
    2 December 2019 18: 49
    And such a fleet is needed - economically, serially, expediently!
  8. +4
    2 December 2019 18: 53
    But we have something similar with the MBT (T-72B3) for tank battles with Western tanks that are unlikely to be of little use, and the barmaley to drive
    1. +12
      2 December 2019 19: 19
      Quote: bars1
      But we have something similar with the MBT (T-72B3) for tank battles with Western tanks that are unlikely to be of little use, and the barmaley to drive

      By the way, a good example.
      The T-72B3 went to the troops when the armored vehicles were on the brink - the main troops were the T-72A and B built during the Soviet era (and some rode the T-62 and even the T-55). New T-90s arrived at 63 vehicles a year, and the plant regularly raised the price for them. And it was necessary to change about 2000 tanks, and urgently - because the Soviet equipment was pretty worn out. So we decided to choose "a tank for 52 million".
      Yes, he was inferior to the T-90. But the T-90 went almost piece by piece, and there was no chance to rearm the BTVs with them. But the main BTV tanks - T-72A and B - won the new T-72B3 (at least by the fact that they went through the capital). And the B3 plant could produce three times as much. As a result, in the first six years, the BTV met urgent needs, replacing more than 1000 old tanks, and then began to improve - ordering the modernized B3, the new T-90 and the modernized T-80.
      1. +2
        3 December 2019 10: 36
        Quote: Alexey RA
        and modernized T-80s.

        but is it reasonable? Again 3 MBT in service request Yes, and Armata on the horizon ... Well, the T-90 at least the development of the T-72, and the T-80 is a dead end ... request
        1. +4
          3 December 2019 12: 41
          Quote: ser56
          but is it reasonable?

          And this is another question. smile
          For me, the T-80 is superfluous. They just achieved the inconceivable - a single MBT in the BTV (the T-90 with a stretch can be considered a very modernized T-72), and here again the incompatible model is introduced.
          Spawn this did not happen, and again the same thing. ©
          1. +1
            3 December 2019 12: 51
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Just achieved the unthinkable -

            exactly! bully
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Spawn this did not happen, and again the same thing.

            Wh, alas, right! laughing
  9. +4
    2 December 2019 19: 08
    When, relatively speaking, a power plant can be any, but not more expensive than a certain price, and with a limited cost of operation.

    So there are none. request
    Industry does not moo nor calve. Rather, they mumble mumble, they ask for all the money, but there is no result. request
    When will be, they are wondering about the stars. sad
    Secondly, standardization. Identical ships, modernization by "blocks", the impossibility of revising the performance characteristics of each order, as is the case with us.

    Well, this is our national one, since the time of the Russian Empire. sad
    1. +5
      2 December 2019 20: 20
      There is no GEM since there are no large stable orders
      Manufacturers do not strain, you will not have time to master how someone would think of changing the type
      A separate topic is the lack of unification.
      The Americans were able to make their lm2500 uniform for most types of warships from time immemorial.
      And this is cheapness and sophistication in production
      And if for each frigate its own type of power plant is done, no one will rush to establish production, it’s more profitable to make diesel engines for trains
      1. +3
        2 December 2019 20: 28
        ... much more profitable
        T9 works wonders smile
    2. +10
      2 December 2019 20: 43
      If there are officials whose work is estimated by the number of submitted proposals, comments made, etc., then there can be no doubt that the number of such will be off the scale. Which is happening. And for the saturation of the fleet repeatedly mentioned here with high-quality solid equipment of the same type, if you look, no one is personally responsible - neither the Defense Ministry as a whole and the Navy command in particular, nor the defense (not specific personalities at least). And for the specialized marine research institutes, and the elders sitting there, the current situation reminds heaven of heaven - there are a million and a few more projects, it rarely comes to mass production, and if it does, then with the third generation of developers, so there is no real responsibility for the failures - know budget and PR for another super-mega-analogue of a linear submarine aircraft carrier of vertical take-off.
    3. +7
      2 December 2019 21: 26
      So there are none. request
      Industry does not moo nor calve. Rather, they mumble mumble, they ask for all the money, but there is no result.


      Not quite.

      For ships of the 2nd rank there are options with Kolomensky diesels. The first one is like the corvettes 20380 and 20385 - 2DDA12000. There is a problem - the gearboxes make them for a long time and then assemble the unit even longer at the stand.
      If they invested in the second stand, then about a Corvette set per year could have been received.
      The second option for smaller ships is 2DRRA6000, from patrol 22160. Such installations can be baked like pies and some small corvette like the Chinese 056 they would have "carried" without problems.

      GTE M-70 and M-90 will soon go in normal quantities.

      It remains to put the squeeze on the "Star-Reducer".

      Plus there are options with electric propulsion, low-cost GEDs in Russia are produced in series, for a couple of years on the basis of Kolomensky 16D49 you can figure out the appropriate generator, and then make ships with electric propulsion.

      On the way MA7 - 2xM90FRU + 2xM70 and gear adders. This one will be placed on the 22350M and it will be easier to make its gearbox than for the 22350, as revolutions of marching and afterburning turbines are close.

      In general, there are no unsolvable problems, somewhere up to 8000 tons of VI the ships can be equipped with a power plant very soon, if only Zvezda-Reductor does not let down.
      And yes - before everything could also be done, at least for diesel ships.
      1. 0
        11 December 2019 16: 16
        Isn't it easier to put GTU on all ships of 2 ranks and higher (with a displacement of 2-8 thousand tons)? Things are going well with them: BOD 1155 is an example of this.
        Install a power plant according to the COGAG scheme (two gas turbines of different power through a gearbox). We get reliability and acceptable fuel efficiency.
        1. 0
          12 December 2019 11: 27
          It’s somewhat simpler, but the cost of the life cycle of such a ship is much higher - and this is a significant factor.
          1. 0
            12 December 2019 14: 53
            But amid problems with diesel engines?
            And of the pluses - low vibration, noise, faster output at maximum power.
            Americans with their turbines are a good example.
            And, as I understand it, diesel engines comparable in efficiency and reliability with Finnish and German, we still do not get.
            1. 0
              12 December 2019 15: 30
              Problems with the quality of diesel engines that Kolomna made were almost eliminated by the mid-2010s. Then, when the fleet refused to build diesel corvettes further and announced the transition to 20386, it fell again.

              The question is fuel - gas turbine ships burn it so much for 25-30 years of service that they can’t be counted on the move. Plus expensive repairs and spare parts.

              In my opinion, a different complex in our conditions should be on strike ships, such as the future 22350M, and that is limited, but on different corvettes and mass light frigates (if any), the diesel engine is quite appropriate - look at the Chinese with their 054, at the French with their Lafayette and Cassards, or even the Romanians with their Marasesti.
              1. 0
                12 December 2019 19: 01
                I agree about the efficiency, but: there are questions about the ability to produce enough of them, of acceptable quality (it is no coincidence that corvettes were originally designed for MTU diesel engines), as well as the homogeneous power plant (with the same turbines) simplifies repairs and logistics. Military equipment, in principle, is not particularly focused on profitability ...
                1. 0
                  13 December 2019 12: 20
                  Kolomna does something about 500 motors a year. The question is gearboxes, but it is in a sharper form for gas turbine engines than for diesel engines.

                  Military equipment, in principle, is not particularly focused on profitability ...


                  This is not entirely true. They count money in the navy too. Especially when fuel is allocated for military services.
              2. 0
                16 December 2019 19: 22
                I looked for information on the fuel efficiency of gas turbines and diesel engines. Met an article and an interesting schedule:
                http://factmil.com/publ/soderzhanie/vms/perspektivy_razvitija_ehnergeticheskikh_ustanovok_nadvodnykh_korablej_vms_zarubezhnykh_stran_ch1/6-1-0-808
                According to these data, the fuel efficiency of gas turbines of the English EM Daring is almost the same as the medium-speed marine diesel engine.
                I am sure that GTUs are necessary (for ships with more than 1-2 thousand tons of displacement), and developing this area is no less important.
                1. 0
                  16 December 2019 20: 26
                  There, the Dependency is indicated "% power - specific fuel consumption". This does not give the whole picture.

                  Actually, up to 3600-3900 tons can be closed with diesels. More are purely turbine options.
                  1. 0
                    24 December 2019 15: 38
                    I read about the state of the production of gas turbines with us - not a shine, to put it mildly. It is unclear when something similar to the LM-2500 will appear and in a minimum sufficient quantity.
                    1. 0
                      24 December 2019 15: 39
                      Well yes. Not shine. Its 2500 can be made from M90. Power is approximately equivalent.
                      But the gearbox is a problem.
                      1. +1
                        24 December 2019 16: 39
                        Power is not enough, reliability and resource are important. Not at 2500, but at least in approximation.
                        I looked through articles about marine diesel engines at VO: in the region of 2015-2016 - about the purchase of Chinese, according to the tabular data (power, speed) of the corresponding MTU, then, in the region of 2018 - that these diesel engines are of extremely low quality, two were jammed on the ship’s tests ..
                        And a reasonable question arises: why not order from the Republic of Korea? They are now among the leaders of shipbuilding, built analogues of Berkov (and even more powerful). Sanctions do not owe anything. IMHO, their diesel and gas turbines should be of better quality than the Chinese.
                      2. 0
                        24 December 2019 16: 58
                        Why not order from the Republic of Korea? They are now among the leaders of shipbuilding, built analogues of Berkov (and even more powerful). Sanctions do not owe anything. IMHO, their diesel and gas turbines should be of better quality than the Chinese.


                        They put American gas turbines, I don’t know for diesels, STX works with Cummins and MTU, everything is sanctioned there. Doosan makes toy motors for boats from strength.
                        Look like that's it.
                        I didn’t delve deliberately, but in my opinion there is nothing to take there.
                        It’s customary to overestimate South Korea as a manufacturer, judge by Samsung and cars, but in fact they don’t know how to do a lot of basic things. Truck cranes are commonplace, for example, do not know how. Forklift trucks.

                        In 2002, a friend of mine sold a Chelyabinsk truck crane there. For us it’s like sledgehammers, low-tech, and they took apart, studied.
  10. 0
    2 December 2019 19: 08
    In fact, pr. 636 and 877 have already been built in more than 50 units.
    1. +3
      2 December 2019 21: 26
      Well these are different projects.
  11. +1
    2 December 2019 19: 11
    "Father" said that the fleet must be balanced!
    It’s interesting, but whoever he heard is from those responsible.
    On the other hand, when "there is no money and you ... wait, build" special "successes" should not be expected.
    1. +2
      2 December 2019 21: 27
      So the allocation of money on whom depends? From the Ministry of Defense. They must offer management a sane shipbuilding program.
      1. 0
        2 December 2019 22: 48
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        So the allocation of money on whom depends? From the Ministry of Defense. They must offer management a sane shipbuilding program.

        TASS
        Putin demanded to increase the combat capabilities of the Navy in the coming years

        Today, the Guarantor spoke out! Something must change for the better !.
        The article is interesting. Thank! good
      2. 0
        3 December 2019 07: 24
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        So the allocation of money on whom depends? From the Ministry of Defense. They must offer management a sane shipbuilding program.

        Welcome soldier
        Not really knowing how and what is "brewed in that kitchen", we will guess, rush here and there, referring to the opinions of various experts, responsible, someone else's experience .... no knowledge of general principles will help here. Our criticism is mainly an emotional assessment of what we see in the end.
        I would like it to be better ... this is normal, but give advice, give grades, here you need to KNOW!
        They do not know ... but I want to criticize it. Such a "fly" has bitten many! Seems like me too fool
  12. Eug
    +9
    2 December 2019 19: 16
    Once again I am convinced that the emphasis should be placed not on problematic "wunderwales", but on "competently riveted troughs", not forgetting the preparation of l / s. Wunderwaflies are also needed as experimental research models, but they should not occupy a dominant place in the weapons program.
  13. +7
    2 December 2019 19: 20
    Quote: rocket757
    On the other hand, when "there is no money and you ... wait, build" special "successes" should not be expected.

    I disagree. ,, We have the funds. We don't have enough intelligence "so, I remember the cat Matroskin said
    1. +3
      2 December 2019 20: 45
      If all the funds plunge into endless and numerous R&D, then there will definitely not be any money left for the construction of resources, no matter how many were originally.
      1. 0
        3 December 2019 07: 30
        Quote: UAZ 452
        If all the funds plunge into endless and numerous R&D, then there will definitely not be any money left for the construction of resources, no matter how many were originally.

        And that's right too! spending money, resources to nothing, is dangerous! Only we don’t understand, don’t know, don’t understand how it is happening now and this is bad, in all respects.
    2. -1
      3 December 2019 07: 28
      Quote: bars1
      Quote: rocket757
      On the other hand, when "there is no money and you ... wait, build" special "successes" should not be expected.

      I disagree. ,, We have the funds. We don't have enough intelligence "so, I remember the cat Matroskin said

      I don’t argue and don’t assert! Simply, such a "catch phrase" was launched by one of the most "top and responsible"! One could have laughed, but not at that level ... because with them it can mean "a guide to action", and this, for us, is no longer funny!
  14. +6
    2 December 2019 19: 26
    A noteworthy fact - the Navy engineer who created the necessary software was a 36-year-old African-American woman, Ray Jean Montague, actually the "mother" of the modern American warship design school.
    Although this woman is not among our friends, my respect and respect are mine.
    1. +8
      2 December 2019 21: 37
      Yes, I was also impressed.
      1. 0
        3 December 2019 02: 08
        Quote: tihonmarine
        A noteworthy fact - the Navy engineer who created the necessary software was a 36-year-old African-American woman, Ray Jean Montague, actually the "mother" of the modern American warship design school.
        Although this woman is not among our friends, my respect and respect are mine.

        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Yes, I was also impressed.
        and you didn’t notice that even in the photo of this elderly lady, it’s as if underlined (facial features), what -
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        The strange and unconventional design of "Perry" is largely due to the fact that he "came up with" not a human.
        !!! Or it seemed to me ?!
        1. 0
          3 December 2019 05: 02
          It was invented by a computer in 18 hours.
          And the software for this computer was ... 36-year-old African American.
          1. -1
            3 December 2019 07: 03
            Ebony .. just a black woman .. from the word negro-black .. or is it a black woman born in Russia, an Afro-Russian woman, in Europe an Afro-European, and in Asia an Afro-Asian?)
          2. 0
            3 December 2019 12: 54
            My friend, I can read carefully. And also, when I see traits of lizardsI love and joke.
  15. +7
    2 December 2019 20: 01
    Sooo interesting article turned out! Neither add nor remove. I am not a sailor, but I read it with pleasure, watched the video and was especially amazed at the survivability of this ship. Thank you very much!
  16. +1
    2 December 2019 20: 11
    ". According to the calculations of American specialists, the minimum increase in displacement, which could be required for any two-shaft power plant on such a ship, would be 400 tons. Without any increase in useful volumes in the ship."
    "But at the same time, like a single-shaft power plant, it helped to significantly reduce the displacement. So, an attempt to transfer the gun to the bow of the ship would lead to a significant lengthening of the hull, which would increase the cost of the ship, would require an increase in the power of the power plant and would increase the required amount of fuel by board. "
    "... changing the design of the ship so that it would meet the required prices, to reduce the required power of the power plant and, accordingly, its size and mass of fuel, it was supposed to fight for every pound of the frigate's mass."
    What is characteristic, it was about such a situation in a convulsive life that I have been reporting all my life.
    And designing by today's times ... By and large the same. Now no one draws on a whatman with a pencil and a ruler. What I managed to do while defending my diploma. And to two other comrades I painted their pictures.
    1. +2
      2 December 2019 21: 28
      What is characteristic, it was about such a situation in a convulsive life that I have been reporting all my life.


      Can you tell me more?

      With regard to design - this is now the case, and then it was 1971!
  17. +2
    2 December 2019 20: 26
    About the gun in the bow
    Australians and Turks upgraded Perry, installing in the bow of the UV41 MK32 13 medium-range missiles in addition to the MKXNUMX single-armed bandit, providing quick launch, and with the advent of the AGSN, a sharp increase in fire performance
    Taiwanese on Perry managed to add 8 anti-ship missiles, 4 of which are supersonic
  18. +5
    2 December 2019 20: 33
    In the penultimate photo, of course, not a section, but a block (moreover, such ... A rather large block block. It is shown with saturation and mechanisms). They still haven’t even installed onboard sections. Apparently for ease of installation of equipment.
    But in general. Great article. Thanks to the author. Well, my respect hi
    1. +2
      2 December 2019 21: 29
      Yes, this is one of the bottom blocks, messy wrote.

  19. +3
    2 December 2019 20: 36
    An interesting article, there is something to think about. Thanks to the author!
    1. +2
      2 December 2019 21: 29
      Glad you liked it.
  20. 0
    2 December 2019 21: 22
    Thank you, a very interesting article!
  21. +3
    2 December 2019 21: 23
    Yes, they love in Russia "different caliber" ... And during the Soviet era there were simultaneously several types of BODs, cruisers. Although a series of 35 pcs. BOD project 1135 also combined a large series, which was built at several shipyards at once, which made it possible to create a successful seagoing ship PLO. So there were traditions - we must continue!
  22. +3
    2 December 2019 21: 48
    Compact Perry Launcher
  23. +4
    2 December 2019 22: 13
    Effective managers responsible for building ships and ships for the Navy are at least perfectionist-procrastinators. Everyone promises that there will be a super-aircraft carrier, there will be super-Gorshkov, super UDC, super .... But no, they are most likely saboteurs and pests.
  24. +7
    2 December 2019 22: 23
    A question arises about the video with the shelling of a Perry-class frigate. Why, with extensive destruction in the underwater part of the ship, its draft did not change, there was no roll. The waterline is very visible. Most likely it was loaded with materials that increase buoyancy. The purpose of the tests was not to find out the survivability of the ship, but to test the maximum number of different ammunition on it. For this it was made unsinkable. This video cannot testify to the survivability of this type of ships.
    1. +1
      2 December 2019 22: 54
      The waterline is very visible. Most likely, buoyancy enhancing materials were loaded on it. The purpose of the tests was not to find out the survivability of the ship, but to test on it the maximum number of different ammunition. For this, it was made unsinkable.


      Well, he ended up drowning. And if we do with floating targets, then we could shoot like that for ten years.
    2. +4
      2 December 2019 23: 09
      Yes, I also got the impression, besides there was no ammunition there, which is also not unimportant in real life! ...
      But this does not negate the fact that 3,14stan raped many ships for relatively little money ...
      And fast !…
  25. +2
    2 December 2019 22: 31
    Good and relevant article. The unification of military equipment and weapons is needed in all types and types of aircraft for effective training, maintainability, cheaper production and competent use in military conflicts. We have many different weapons systems, which often duplicate each other, and they are also modernized, created new ... money is not wasted. What can I say if a simple gun to replace the PM for several decades really could not be developed and recently it was hardly adopted.
  26. +2
    2 December 2019 22: 33
    "no one from the High Command or the Ministry of Defense got into the evolution of the project with their hands in the gloomy 2000s and later"
    I don’t know why, but it seems to me that the main message of the article is precisely this ...
    with a slight amendment:
    there are not only commanders, and not so much ...
    they are most likely on parcels, errands - wedding admirals, ...
    1. +4
      2 December 2019 22: 55
      Somewhere from 2008 to 2012, the Glavkomat generally had no right to decide which ships to order and which OCD to open. Before and after were.

      This is about "not so much the High Command."

      Now, for example, Evmenov has the opportunity not to bend under the industry - there would be a desire.
      1. +2
        2 December 2019 23: 04
        Thank you, I expected something like this, especially based on the materials of your articles about torpedoes and mine sweepers, because it’s difficult to name our software programs, especially, the construction of surface ships ...
        I mean, if we had okay for money and in general as in 3,14stan, then you can toss around as many as you like and ...
        What doesn’t it start with with an electronic catapult ...
        And so, as it should be wiser ...
        1. +1
          2 December 2019 23: 09
          What doesn’t it start with with an electronic catapult ...


          Yes, there is not only a catapult, and not only on Ford.
          The wrong one has gone now, one cannot but admit ... although they are still very dangerous. They just got worse than they were (not for us).
          1. +3
            2 December 2019 23: 12
            Money allows! ...
      2. 0
        3 December 2019 02: 33
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Now, for example, Evmenov has the opportunity not to bend under the industry - there would be a desire.
        Then I really hope that he (as an example of a reasonable spending of funds with "Perry" or "Varshavyanka", for mass construction with maximum budget savings) for PLO in BMZ, will prefer not 20380, but 11661 (at the same power plant, with the same GAK, UKSK) and SAM Osa-MA (which is quite enough for the OVR corvette, well, the maximum is "Pantsir-M"). Then it will be able to be both cheap and massive, and become the main ship of the OVR / BMZ, performing the functions there as an ASW (ie, to replace the aging IPC), and perform the tasks of typical MRC (the production of which, in its pure form as "Karakurt" or Buyan-M ", in the future, is just a scattering of funds allocated to the Navy, to nowhere) !!
  27. -20
    3 December 2019 00: 38
    "This is direct evidence that when we start working as Americans, we get the same results as Americans." - Dear, Mr. Timokhin is again trying to impose a race with the whole world for the number of ships. This article is a direct challenge to what is currently being discussed in Sochi.
    "This is a gag that should be gagged to anyone who doubts out loud that Russia can, if it wants, calmly and measuredly, without tears and super-efforts." - Rhetoric with gagging in the mouths who disagree with a man who has no relation to the fleet, but who knows how to beautifully place pictures and refer to foreign authorities in all his articles.
    "And the ships are quite valuable, never missile gunboats or some kind of" patrol "squalor." - This man without military education, without naval education, never commanding anyone indiscriminately humiliates and insults everything done without him and in spite of his "wise" advice. Perfectly! But what does Mr. Timokhin have to do with the Russian Navy, and why does he use “we” so categorically? "we" - according to Timokhin, who is "we"? These are the ones who have been building and reviving the Fleet in recent years?
    "When in Russia the naval construction madness will finally end, when the orders of ships and their number will be derived from a sane and realistic concept of the Navy's development, and not like now" ... that is, you need to understand that money goes past Mr. Timokhin and his owners? ... "We will be able to learn from the American experience a lot of useful things for ourselves as well. Not by catch and accident, but systematically and consciously. And we have already successfully tested some of this, albeit not in surface shipbuilding, in practice." - All these empty sounds have nothing to do with reality. Timokhin again seeks to divert the public in the direction of bezkmless increase in the number, this kind of riveting of ships according to the Khrushchev principle "like sausages." All this is directly opposite to what is being done and is aimed only at destruction, at raising a wave of the public and activists - amateurs and know-it-alls.
    1. +9
      3 December 2019 06: 12
      And without swearing and insults - in essence, what can you tell the author? Or are the victorious failures of shipbuilding programs not the result of the "brilliant" leadership of the leaders?
      Have you strengthened the fighting efficiency of the fleet with an "innovative naval patrolman"? Or not built frigates without a power plant, about the production of which at their own facilities for some reason did not attend to? How many frigates has the fleet received less in the last 5-6 years?
      Is Timokhin to blame for this?
      And the fact that the corvettes and RTOs were without diesel engines?
      And the leapfrog of the projects of corvettes, up to the "breakthrough" 20386, while the fleet needs inexpensive but massive anti-submarine warheads in the near zone?
      Alexander prepared a good article and gave a very illustrative example of solving the difficult problem of mass production of cheap, but very successful frigates. There is another very illustrative example from the history of WWII - the American super-mass transport "Liberty" ...

      To get such a dazzling result from the failures of shipbuilding programs, stupidity alone is not enough ... there was no sabotage here ... especially in the period from 2008 to 2012, the results of which we are all reaping today. You are not heroes, are you covering this sabotage?
      1. -7
        3 December 2019 08: 58
        The heroes of "this sabotage" are actually barking something due to the available economic and production possibilities, and, moreover, the main thing takes place "behind the scenes" away from the playful eyes of the guardians. The emphasis is on this, which is the best solution - new low-cost but effective types of weapons. And riveting just boats with the flow method is like running forward with eyes on the back of your head. It is necessary to build, and this is being done, ships for solving geopolitical problems, with an emphasis on the Northern Fleet and TF. Ships in service, to the best of the state's capabilities, are being modernized, new ones are commissioned annually, the Black Sea Fleet has been revived, the Northern Fleet is replenished with exactly such ice-class ships as the situation requires. What do you gentlemen still want? To follow the wise path of Mr. Timokhin - to remake everything, replace everyone? But he is an amateur, as he himself admitted to me. He did not serve in the Navy, does not have a naval education, and indeed a military one, most likely in the volume of the VK of a civilian university, therefore, his articles are just compilations from open foreign and Russian sources with beautiful pictures and ridiculous conclusions. Moreover, they are covered with blasphemy against the leadership of the country and the Navy, that is, precisely those people who pull the brunt of the decisions and responsibility they make. You remember 2008 - 2012, but again you are looking into the past, but the article is supposedly about the future! And in conclusion, I, by the way, the author, God forbid, do not offend or offend. What for? The people who are really connected with the Fleet are already clear. My comments are more for the enthusiastic amateur fans.
        1. +5
          3 December 2019 09: 45
          LeonidL, come to your senses - what low-cost, but effective replenishment are you talking about?
          In recent years, the Black Sea Fleet has received three frigates of Project 11356, which essentially allows us to have on average one (!) Second-rate combat-ready ship there, which the language does not turn out to be called modern and well-armed. What do you call rebirth?
          As for the Northern Fleet, in my opinion, nothing has been transferred there, except for the Gorshkov, lately. Is this what the situation requires, in your opinion?
          In naval construction, there is a mess and confusion, and Timokhin is 100% right when he denounces them in his articles and points to examples from American experience that show how to use limited resources with greater efficiency.
          1. +2
            3 December 2019 10: 52
            Quote: Ivanchester
            come to your senses -

            he is engaged in the defense of the "honor of the uniform" bully
            1. +1
              3 December 2019 20: 54
              He cannot defend any honor of a uniform, it’s just an unhealthy person and that’s it.
              1. 0
                4 December 2019 15: 05
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                it's just an unhealthy person and that's it.

                it seems you are right ... hi
          2. +2
            4 December 2019 08: 15
            I will come to my senses I recommend to the fans of Mr. Timokhin, a man who has no and no relation to the Fleet. I’ll try to explain my position.
            1. Russia is invited to rivet cheap but numerous ships of almost the same project. What is the purpose and outcome of such voluntarism? What, strata equal in number of pennants to NATO and China? But this is a purely extensive path of development. This has already happened under the USSR, and the result? Everything went into scrap metal or conservation. Thanks to such a blasphemous leadership of Mr. Timokhin, at least something was saved, and now it’s also been built. Building the same for all fleets is nonsense - you must take into account the conditions of navigation and living conditions at least, not to mention the conditions of military service and the diversity of tasks.
            2. Suppose that the leadership of the country and the MoD with the Navy followed the path beaten by the amateur Timokhin, and the shipbuilders, having stretched their hands and configured new slipways, started to bake some Rus-Perry pancakes. Each is cheap on its own, but all together will gobble up a fair share of the budget. For everyone, you need to start preparing the command structure in advance - expand the set or create new schools. Te selection and hiring of a teaching staff, command and instructor, again the expansion of the barracks, canteens, uniforms, food, and so on and so forth. Ships were built and arrived at bases, ports, basing points ... there they need to provide normal conditions for at least mooring at pontoon piers, supplying electricity, water, steam, etc. etc. For command personnel and midshipmen - DOSs or officer dormitories , Houses of Navy officers, everyday life, barracks for foremen and conscripted sailors, shops ... Now it’s not Soviet times and officer wives do not huddle in barracks, in small-panel families, they need work, at least a place for spending time, shopping, hairdressers ... if oh will not be at a decent level, the wives will simply leave the faithful, and the faithful will leave the fleet.
            3. Suppose huge infusions from the budget are made and the ships went to sail on the seas and oceans ... but as everyone knows, Russian warships do not sail alone, but like a squadron of Admiral Rozhdestvensky, accompanied by tankers, tugs, supply vessels. Baz just missed it. This means that in parallel it is necessary to build an auxiliary fleet with all the ensuing needs. Each such combat caravan must be supplied with everything, including "Calibers", that is, their production must be drastically increased.
            4. What is the practical result? First of all, it will be necessary to put together an already tuned shipbuilding program and start from scratch ... A hefty hole will not be formed in the budget, but a hole, first of all, as always, at the expense of social services, which will immediately cause a fair seething and discontent among the people. Well-known personalities will immediately climb the wave of dissatisfaction and will call for the Maidan to the Maidan ... And among the first again you will be gentlemen-fellow citizens, you will begin to curse, drive and demand. But to the "adversary" all these attempts will seem only ridiculous, because even baking cheap rusiche-perry like pancakes, you cannot do anything particularly terrible.
            The Russian military doctrine is unequivocally based in the naval part on the principle of the necessary sufficiency for defense! No naval battles in the future between the great powers are foreseen - this is the lot of entertainment for computer overgrown boys, since any clash of fleets immediately releases the trigger of a full-scale nuclear war. Therefore, for the Russian fleet, victory in a war is a warning of war as such. You can’t prevent a war from floating midges, because the management relies on asymmetric, latest means of warning and deterrence. And people like Mr. Timokhin are trying to drag the leadership and the public into ripping up the budget with funds from the year before last war.
            1. 0
              4 December 2019 09: 39
              Alas, I did not catch the essence of your answer request
              Black Sea Fleet revived
              - did you write this? I ask: what is the rebirth? That there are still some ships that are capable of going out to sea?
              The Northern Fleet is replenished with just such ice class ships as the situation requires
              What kind of ships he replenished in the last, say, three years? Or, in your opinion, the situation now does not require replenishment? smile
              to be equal in number of pennants to NATO and China?

              In articles Timokhin and close there is nothing like it. He only calls for the more efficient use of the funds allocated for the construction of new ships, including by refraining from spraying on unnecessarily complex or initially unsuccessful projects in favor of increasing the serialization of well-proven and well-proven (albeit not super-innovative) ones.
              1. +3
                5 December 2019 00: 16
                Read and think about the logic of what you write: "by refusing to sprinkle on overly complex or initially unsuccessful projects in favor of increasing the seriality of worked out and well-proven (even if not super-innovative) projects." Rejection of "unnecessarily complex" means a complete degradation and immediately loss of advantage over a technically complex, modern ship. Is it ideal to build Noviks? Simple, but a lot? How and who can determine that a project is "initially unsuccessful" - old man Hottabych or Mr. Timokhin. It is precisely the fleet that requires new, breakthrough solutions, and not rollbacks to the past. Who needs the clouds of obsolete self-tope?
            2. -1
              4 December 2019 15: 04
              Quote: LeonidL
              No naval battles in the future between the great powers are foreseen - this is the lot of entertainment for computer overgrown boys,

              1) It’s funny, why then are all the more or less great countries building a fleet? request
              2) By the way - are you not a foreign agent? Such suspicions arouse your desire to make Russia one-armed ... what
        2. +2
          3 December 2019 10: 38
          Quote: LeonidL
          People really connected with the Fleet and so everything is clear.


          Those. Do "people who are really connected" think that everything is done in the best way? That assortment of corvettes and floating launchers are the best that is possible now? If so, why?
        3. +2
          3 December 2019 10: 52
          Quote: LeonidL
          moreover, the main thing takes place "behind the scenes" away from the playful eyes of the guardians

          that’s why the bummer over and over again ... secret their stupidity and lack of competence ... request and no one is responsible for wasted money ... hi
          Quote: LeonidL
          My comments are more likely for enthusiastic non-professional fans.

          look funny enough ... request We, non-naval ones, are able to do something else! And the principles of creating new technology are the same everywhere - if there are no engines, then you can’t make either a tank or a corvette ... request However, there are diesel and turbine tanks, but not for ships ... hi
        4. +4
          3 December 2019 13: 25
          Quote: LeonidL
          The emphasis is precisely on this, which is the best solution - new low-cost but effective types of weapons.

          Yeah ... for example, project 22160 is extremely low-cost due to the lack of almost all the modules expected to be installed (and orders for them) and the physical impossibility to install an air defense system (the space for the module on the ordered ships is already taken). smile
          This "patrol ship" was created to replace the OVR corvette, but at the same time it has near-zero capabilities of its own for PLO (any Ka-27 carrier for PLO is equivalent to 22160, even the same Herluf Bidstrup smile ).
          Quote: LeonidL
          Black Sea Fleet revived

          The Black Sea Fleet contracted to three FRs and one RRC. Because all the other surface ships of the fleet, including the IPC, have been serving for 30-50 years. Before the arrival of the Black Sea Fleet, the 11356 brigade of surface ships consisted of projects that even in the USSR were considered obsolete.
          Quote: LeonidL
          The Northern Fleet is replenished with just such ice class ships as the situation requires

          What ice class, what is the atmosphere? We have 40% of strategic security systems locked in two bases, and it is impossible to secretly get them out of there. OVR has died - the IPC is outdated and all the deadlines come out, there are no modern TSHs in the iron and in the building. But we will build patrol icebreakers, patrol ships and other patrol something.
          Quote: LeonidL
          Ships in service, to the best of their ability, are being modernized.

          Oh yes ... like the "Kulakov", which was replaced by a MANPADS on a pedestal in the course of modernization in place of the design bow AP "Dagger". With the same success it was possible to put a "forty-five" there.
          1. 0
            3 December 2019 14: 27
            Yeah ... for example, project 22160 is extremely low-cost due to the lack of almost all the modules expected to be installed (and orders for them) and the physical impossibility to install an air defense system (the space for the module on the ordered ships is already taken)


            By the way, it costs the same as "Karakurt" without "Shell". For all my dislike for the MRK as a class of ships, I would prefer to see an extra "Karakurt" in the fleet instead of a trough. And even six "Karakurt" instead of each of the troughs. Even without the "Shell".
          2. 0
            3 December 2019 22: 07
            Quote: Alexey RA
            But we will build patrol icebreakers, patrol ships and other patrol something.
            Well, I don’t really understand the logic of the Navy (as a customer), which, the less remains in the ranks of warships of the first rank (Soviet-built), the more stubbornly orders new patrol icebreakers. Occupying building berths in this way, instead of the same 22350 (as the most developed project for today), in the same Baltic plant ?! I would like to ask these naval commanders enthusiastically looking at patrol icebreakers with the AK-100 (as the main weapon),- what are you doing?! or - what happens at all?!
            1. -1
              5 December 2019 02: 48
              Vladimir, you know better than me that ships without a power plant cannot be built, and so program 22350 froze. Now they are again actively laying down, because the first power plants were delivered to shipbuilders - this year two 22350+ were laid, two more will be laid next spring, and then, if the project is prepared, already 22350M will go into series. And at 2 shipyards right away - Kaliningrad and Peter.
              But combat icebreakers are also needed to protect the northern possessions, and therefore they are building them, but they do not take away the berths from 22350 at completely different shipyards. After all, they will not only be engaged in patrolling, but also to ensure the logistics of the Arctic bases, now they are driving BODs there, and it’s not very comfortable in the ice.
          3. 0
            5 December 2019 00: 22
            Sorry, but you are unproven in the sense that it was not about traditional ships, but about a breakthrough weapon. you are also wrong when speaking about icebreakers. Their task is to patrol in the Arctic waters and protect national economic interests, for example, drilling ones, from all sorts of buzoters like greenps, there are more than 76 mm, but the presence of container "calibers", "zircons" and air defense / missile defense, which is not particularly written about - this is already the answer to more serious challenges. And especially on this score they do not spread with speeches for quite understandable political reasons.
      2. +2
        3 December 2019 15: 00
        it could not do without sabotage ... especially between 2008 and 2012, the results of which we are all reaping today


        Somehow Klimov revealed some details to me, I gasped already - I told him - Max, but this guy, he is after all an agent of influence. Why didn’t anyone else's eye hurt? Well, in his own information, he drew attention to some points.

        Then he somehow did not heed, but later KMK believed, and "above" the opinion begins to ripen that these failures on key issues did not happen by themselves.

        Here this "sleeping" is mentioned, but I will not poke a finger specifically in the photo
        https://topwar.ru/157559-apkr-severodvinsk-proekt-885-jasen-sdan-vmf-s-kriticheskimi-dlja-ego-boesposobnosti-nedodelkami-protivotorpednoj-zaschity-podlodok-vmf-rf-net.html

        Google yourself, a person is "everywhere and nowhere", he can influence everything, but he is not responsible for anything. A board member of literally everything, but nowhere is a formal leader.
        With a professionally cleaned up biography, there are no traces, it is as if he was "born an adult."
        1. 0
          3 December 2019 21: 27
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          A member of the board of directors is literally everything, but nowhere is a formal leader.
          With a professionally cleaned up biography, there are no traces, it is as if he was "born an adult."

          Very interesting character.
          And of course he is not alone in this field. But one thing is sabotage and sabotage / subversive work, and another is the lack of control and proper reaction from the top management and the relevant services ... This situation is not only in the Navy, but in this area the fruits of their "efforts" are especially egregious.

          Alexander, your article has led me to such thoughts. To date, perhaps the only successful project of the new ships 22350 and its development 22350M. Moreover, it is the 22350M that is scheduled for a large series - 12-18 copies, at least in the first stage. But this is actually the destroyer - the ship of the ocean zone. At the same time, the fleets are experiencing serious hunger for anti-submarine ships of the near zone (IPC) and distant sea (BOD \ frigate). These ships should be inexpensive, balanced in terms of armament and as unified as possible with ships of other classes and purpose.
          The example of "Oliver H. Perry" with its single-shaft power plant suggested the following idea. If the main ship of the oceanic zone fleet is 22350M and a serious series is envisaged, then consider whether to use the "half" of its power plant (turbopair M-70 and M-90FRU) as a power plant for a promising single-shaft frigate?
          It could be a frigate with a displacement of about 4 tons (000 tons - full) with a GAK from "Gorshkov", missile torpedoes, etc. KR in the UKSK, an air defense missile system based on "Pantsyr-M" and two helicopters (example of "Oliver H. Perry "demonstrates that the basing of 4500 helicopters on ships of this class is a completely solvable issue)," Packet-NK ", where can we go without it. Taking into account the maximum unification and the use of proven models of weapons and equipment, this frigate would come out at a cost no more than the same 2 of the Black Sea series or the corvette 11356 \ 20380.
          Large 22350M series and a hypothetical prospective frigate would lead to a significant increase in the order for M-90FRU and M-70 turbines and, as a result, lower prices for them and power plants with them built, improve quality (as a result of serial production), facilitate and reduce the cost of their maintenance , repair and maintenance by staff.

          And for a promising MPK with a displacement of about 2000 tons, it would be possible to consider a power plant on 2 M-70s, and the power plant is also single-shaft, in which the M-70 could work alternately as sustainer, and in pair - on afterburner for full speed. Armament - as in 20385, minus Polyment-Redut, plus Pantsir-M. In principle, a helicopter can be abandoned due to the complexity of its use in fresh weather from a ship of such a small displacement, but there is room for placing unmanned aerial vehicles, including a helicopter type.

          As a result, we would get two types of inexpensive, but very necessary ships for a wide series with the maximum unification of GEMs and other systems among themselves and with the project 22350M.
          1. +2
            3 December 2019 22: 45
            Quote: bayard
            The example of "Oliver H. Perry" with its single-shaft power plant suggested the following idea ...
            и
            Quote: bayard
            ... then not to consider the question of using the "half" of its power plant (turbopair M-70 and M-90FRU) as a power plant for a promising single-shaft frigate?
            A very good idea! Especially when you consider that 22350M (this is not a close prospect), because there are no GAKs of the Polynom or Zvezda-2 type for ships of the BOD / EM class. But to use half of this power plant (run in advance, so to speak, directly with a gearbox), so that later the price does not grow (thanks to increasing orders) and there is maximum unification. This is an absolutely sane idea. I support you. And the prototype could be pr. 12441 "Thunder" (it was designed according to a single-shaft scheme). It's just that in terms of the composition of weapons it could be rebalanced, a little. Let's say two transversely installed behind the wheelhouse (as in the "Karakurt") UKSK with 8 cells (instead of the planned 6 by three along), remove the Medvedka, there is nothing for it, (after all, some of the cells will carry 91RT for PLO). Let's say not 4 but 3 of 8 cells "Polyment-Redut" (or in extreme cases "Calm-1"), for PTZ, the same "Packet-NK", the same SJSC "Zarya-3" ... Perhaps, that Yes. I would take your side if such an order from the Navy appeared.
            Quote: bayard
            And for a promising MPK with a displacement of about 2000 tons.
            there is a Kolomna diesel engine and a ready-made power plant: DDA-12000, and here it is not worth inventing a bicycle. And the project of the cheapest replacement for the aging Albatrosses in the form of 1166 * for this power plant is the same ...
            Quote: bayard
            But sabotage and sabotage \ subversive work is one thing, and the lack of control and proper reaction from the top management and relevant services is another ...
            or as mentioned above and with a smile
            Quote: bars1
            Quote: rocket757
            On the other hand, when "there is no money and you ... wait, build" special "successes" should not be expected.

            I disagree. ,, We have the funds. We don't have enough intelligence "so, I remember the cat Matroskin said
            . Do not find that the point is noticed ?!
            1. 0
              4 December 2019 03: 03
              Quote: Vl Nemchinov
              Especially when you consider that 22350M (this is not a close prospect), because there are no GAKs of the Polynom or Zvezda-2 type for ships of the BOD / EM class.

              You know, I have such a presentiment that the 22350M will be laid much earlier - in 1,5 - 2 years, and most likely in the first version it will be just a slightly grown 22350 with an increased ammunition load of up to 48 KR in the UKSK, the updated power plant entirely on gas turbines, with the same air defense system "Polyment-Redut" and, possibly, two helicopters (which I would very much like). And the SAC on the first version will most likely be the same as on 22350.
              But in subsequent modifications, when the Polynom class GAK appears in the iron, it will be possible to marry the Polyment-Redut and the S-400 (at least integrate the S-400 long-range missiles into the ship's air defense system), it will be possible to lay a new version of the 22350M (M2 ?) with possibly even more extended ammunition.
              And if you wait for all this and try to build the most advanced version right away, then there will be a too high coefficient of novelty, the industry will be in a fever and we will not wait for new ships for a long time to come. Best the enemy of the good .
              ... So in this case, the power plant is most likely to be driven in the Super-Gorshkov earlier than on the hypothetical frigate we are discussing, but due to the use on 2 types of ships and the mass production / large-scale production, its price should decrease, the quality should increase , and maintenance and repairs will be easier.
              Quote: Vl Nemchinov
              I support you. And the prototype could be pr. 12441 "Thunder" (it was designed according to a single-shaft scheme). Just in terms of the composition of weapons, it could be rebalanced, a little. Let's say two transversely installed behind the wheelhouse (as on "Karakurt") UKSK with 8 cells (instead of the planned 6 by three along), remove the “Medvedka”, there is nothing for it, (after all, some of the cells will carry 91RT for PLO). Let's say not 4 but 3 of 8 cells "Polyment-Redut" (or in extreme cases "Calm-1"), for PTZ, the same "Packet-NK", the same SJSC "Zarya-3" ... Perhaps, that Yes. I would take your side if such an order from the Navy appeared.

              drinks I just looked at project 12441 ... it's just some kind of beast ... yes, in such a displacement - 18 Onyx, 8 Medvedok. But 4 turbines per one shaft (!) ... a bit too much, the gearbox is tricky and there would probably be no sugar in maintenance, but with half from 22350M fellow The basis would really fit perfectly, with your edits. hi
              1. +1
                4 December 2019 10: 13
                You probably joked about a lot of things - he eats so much displacement, especially in a full set (bulb, tail and under-pitch), that 1155 is the minimum where he will climb. A star or a dawn is another matter, the only question is who makes them.
                12442 - yes, it was a single-shaft with a couple of water cannons for taxiing (which caused legitimate questions) .A powerful weaponry required design according to boat standards and rounded off weight savings. (For example, titanium fittings with the corresponding price tag - I then worked in sector 333, he just engaged in household water). Plus stability - the CM turned out to be high.
                1. 0
                  4 December 2019 17: 40
                  Quote: sivuch
                  About a lot, you probably joked - he eats so much displacement, especially in a complete set (bulb, tail and under-pitch), that 1155 is the minimum where he will climb

                  800 tons is, of course, a lot and turned out to be the ultimate load even for 1155, and although the 22350M is designed with the same displacement, the GAC there will probably be the same as the 22350 in the current version. I talked about the possible further development of this project - with an even greater displacement, if the need arises. It can be a ship with a displacement of 12 tons on 000 turbines M-4FR (like the Chinese project 90), with 055 CD in the UVP, a powerful air defense system based on the frozen S-80 and "Polyment-Reduta" ... something like the project is not a nuclear / gas turbine "Leader" (it was presented just in a displacement of 400 tons). On a ship of this class, the "Polynom" class SAC would be quite appropriate, as it is quite harmoniously integrated on the same 12.
                  Quote: sivuch
                  12442 - yes, it was single-shaft with a pair of water cannons for taxiing (which caused legitimate questions)

                  Apparently the influence of the example of "Oliver H. Perry", where this combination - one shaft and retractable thrusters, proved to be quite good, both in terms of survivability, and in terms of cost and weight / volume savings.
                  The fact that this project was too clever can be seen with the naked eye. In the conditions of the USSR, he could and would have found his place as a light strike ship of the BSK / frigate class, but now ... except perhaps to take a single-shaft hull from his project, increase in size and apply the arrangement of weapons, as suggested by Comrade Nemchinov. With a power plant from a half from 22350M, two helicopters (as in "Oliver H. Perry") and a GAK from "Gorshkov". Price restrictions should be within the price range of 11356 and 20385, that is, 17 - 19 billion rubles.
                  1. 0
                    4 December 2019 17: 51
                    Design guys from the 11th department spoke to me about 1500 tons, and a hefty bulb negatively affected seaworthiness. On the Fence, if sclerosis does not change, there was Platinum without a tail.
                    And what’s better - retractable devices or built-in water cannons - I can’t judge, but I myself heard one of the big bumps say - they’ll beat them with sludge ...., well, of course, what
                    1. 0
                      4 December 2019 18: 02
                      In our northern conditions, yes, sludge will score. But the retractable speakers of the Americans were also in the role of auxiliary movers in case of damage to a single shaft. And there were cases when they rescued them, including after the mine bombing.
                      And about the total weight of the "Polynom" ... maybe ... maybe 800 tons. This is just the weight of the bulb ...
                      1. +1
                        5 December 2019 13: 18
                        Quote: bayard
                        ... I have such a hunch that the 22350M will be laid much earlier - in 1,5 - 2 years, and most likely ...
                        и
                        Quote: bayard
                        ... And the HOOK on the first version will most likely be the same as on the 22350.
                        I beg your pardon, but to build a new BOD / EM, with the Zarya-3 SJSC, is to "create deliberately castrated ship"Do not be offended, but it is.
                        Quote: sivuch
                        Star or Dawn is another matter, the only question is who makes them.
                        I tried for a long time to find (in open sources) whether there is an enterprise in the territory of the Russian Federation that can solve these problems. The only thing that gives at least some hope is OJSC “Priboy Taganrog Plant”. If you believe the information from the article (because she is quite old), - https://bmpd.livejournal.com/92351.html. So, if it has not died yet, then the new 22350M will need a SAC, like / like "Zvezda-2" (and the article suggested that, in principle, this enterprise is "in the subject" on this issue). For this each his own: frigates - "Zarya-3,3", but ships with VI 8000 tons and more, that is, the BOD / EM class - "Zvezda-2" (as on "Admiral Chabanenko"), respectively, ships of the class corvette (with VI within 1700 and up to 2500 tons, you can also "Zarya-2" or "Zvezda-1M".
                        If you are now
                        Quote: sivuch
                        Design guys from department 11 talked to me about 1500 tons
                        about pr. 12441 under the code "Thunder", then there seems to be VI within the range of 2500-2900 t. fluctuates, and the GAK planned it seems "Zvezda-1" (something akin to "Zarya-2", just a bit more powerful).
                        Quote: bayard
                        Price restrictions should be within the price range of 11356 and 20385, that is, 17-19 billion rubles.
                        well, even 20385 does not fit into the limits specified by you. But we must be honest and admit that (if you and I are talking about the hypothetical model 12441 (1244 *), as a single-shaft analogue of "Perry"), that even with a real price tag of 23-26 billion, the one described by you and me, discussed above the model, perhaps, would make sense and the right to life, as it is much more seaworthy (and better armed) compared to 20385, but cheaper with 22350, which, as I assume, does not cost the Navy now, is cheaper than 35 billion rubles. ?!
                        Quote: bayard
                        The fact that this project has been overdone is visible to the naked eye.
                        Eco for sure you noticed !! With the original "Thunder", for its time, namely - are too smart ! Exactly in the "top ten"!
                        Well, about the development of 22350M, (i.e. ships with a VI more than 8000 tons that meet the requirements for BOD / EM)
                        Quote: bayard
                        ... I talked about the possible further development of this project - with an even greater displacement, if the need arises. It can be a ship with a displacement of 12 tons on 000 turbines M-4FR (as well as the Chinese project 90), with 055 CD in the UVP, powerful air defense based on the frozen S-80 and "Polyment-Reduta" ... something like non-nuclear / gas turbine "Leader" project
                        , then as you know, in this direction, I would welcome the development (up to the corresponding technical solutions of the present day) of project 11560. For its time, like the "Thunder" (in its class of light escort ships), it turned out to be too over-complicated. But now ?! Yes, if you set up mass production of the Zvezda-2 SJC, yes, a power plant of four M-90FR (by analogy with the scheme of "singing frigates" pr.61, as you subtly noted), and with the "Polyment-Redut" (according to which he was planned, before the actual appearance of that in the world, but for the future (!), which was quite bold, in my opinion), if with the possibility of using "long-range missiles" from the S-400. Yes, and if you completely dream, and Navy customers, will reach the inclined PU for "Onyx / Caliber / Zircon", as quite sensibly tried to draw attention to this in his articles A, Timokhin ... !!
          2. +1
            4 December 2019 15: 10
            not bad idea... drinks your words, yes to bossy ears .... love
          3. 0
            5 December 2019 20: 44
            The example of "Oliver H. Perry" with its single-shaft power plant suggested the following idea. If the main ship of the oceanic zone fleet is 22350M and a serious series is envisaged, then consider whether to use the "half" of its power plant (turbopair M-70 and M-90FRU) as a power plant for a promising single-shaft frigate?


            I am against copying "Perry" smile

            But if we argue purely from a technical point of view, then you really need a couple of modified M90s in the marching version, so that they can last for 23-24 thousand hp give out.

            But again, we do not have such tasks as the United States. And we do not need a horde of escort frigates.
            1. 0
              5 December 2019 23: 19
              Quote: timokhin-aa

              But if we argue purely from a technical point of view, then you really need a couple of modified M90s in the marching version, so that they can last for 23-24 thousand hp give out.

              Two diesel engines at 22350 give out at a maximum of 10400 l / s, and one M-70 - up to 12 l / s, when working simultaneously on one gearbox, the M-000 and M-70FR will give 90 + 12 = 000 s, this it is enough for the full speed of the frigate with a displacement of 27 \ 500 tons.
              It's not about creating a frigate with record-breaking characteristics, but about a budget-friendly, unified with 22350M, convenient and cheap to maintain ship with anti-submarine / escort functions.
              If necessary, its single-shaft power plant will be able to operate in march mode both on one M-70 (economical move) and on one M-90FR (conditionally - full march), and on two at the same time - the most complete.
              It’s about maximum unification when two types of ships are built on the same type of power plant (turbo-gas pairs), which can reduce the cost of their production due to a large series and simplify maintenance.
              Such a frigate will be slightly inferior to 22350+, but noticeably cheaper and easier to maintain. For an escort / anti-submarine, its capabilities are quite enough, especially if the hangar is for two helicopters.

              But I do not impose my opinion at all, the extension of the 22350+ series may be more rational from the point of view of industry ovation and in terms of the pace of construction.
              The variant of frigate proposed by me is not instead of possible future extras. 22350+ bookmarks, and 1135 to replace soon.
              1. +1
                6 December 2019 11: 57
                It's not about creating a frigate with record-breaking characteristics, but about a budget-friendly, unified with 22350M, convenient and cheap to maintain ship with anti-submarine / escort functions.


                I am against it because I will have to create a new gearbox and the cost of the life cycle of such a fuel-service vehicle will be higher.

                I had another idea for a mass ship. To puzzle the KGNTs Krylov so that, on the basis of their Monoclin patent, they came up with contours with which a ship of 3700-3900 tons could normally sail on 2DDA12000 from corvettes 20380.

                That would be cheaper and much easier.
      3. -1
        5 December 2019 00: 27
        Where you found abuse and insults is only a statement of what Mr. Timokhin personally said. You do not serve as a case in the Cheka-NKVD, does something seem like sabotage to you? Professionals work and if you find it difficult to understand a lot, then, alas, this is your problem. And Mr. Timokhin’s articles are simple and intelligible for non-professionals, emotional, well illustrated with pictures - exactly what is required to raise a public wave, but it is unlikely to succeed.
        1. -1
          5 December 2019 03: 44
          Quote: LeonidL
          something sabotage seems to you all?

          Alas, not just me. request
          Quote: LeonidL
          You are not a case in the Cheka-NKVD

          It’s too late to serve me, but I had some respect for such reputable structures.
          Quote: LeonidL
          Professionals work and if you find it difficult to understand a lot, then, alas, this is your problem.

          For services to professionals - honor and praise.
          And how are we doing with the anti-torpedo protection at Boreyev and Ash?
          And with torpedo weapons in general?
          Why are anti-torpedoes installed on surface ships, but not on submarines, which are of vital importance?
          What kind of miracle Yudo did the "professionals" push (and push) so stubbornly to the bookmark under the index 20386?
          Why is the fleet so prohibitively expensive and just as amazingly toothless a misunderstanding?
          For an innovative power plant with electric propulsion? For the sake of technology development? So the professionals would take one of the unfinished buildings and adapt it for a similar power plant, it would be an experimental vessel. Why should you burn budget money for empty Wishlist? Why a toothless corvette with a frigate displacement and a Zumvalta profile?
          Why do professionals not pay any attention to anti-submarine defense? Why don't even those few corvettes that they managed to build have anti-submarine weapons capable of REALLY fighting the enemy’s submarines?
          I ask you not to mention the "Package" - it's a good thing, but in a duel situation it will lose. By range.
          Why are our professionals good, and the results of their work ... AWESOME?
          1. -1
            5 December 2019 07: 56
            Therefore, do you like Mr. Timokhin’s little idea to rivet a lot of cheap rashen-perry? And will all of you list them on? By the way, Perry has long gone for gifts to underdeveloped allies, and here they are threatening to give the Ukrainian Absurdistan a couple on the same conditions as the coast guard motorbots.
            1. -1
              5 December 2019 09: 10
              Quote: LeonidL
              Therefore, do you like Mr. Timokhin’s little idea to rivet a lot of cheap rashen-perry?

              I liked the article, it is interesting and informative. And leads to interesting thoughts, considerations and suggestions.
              Our fleet really needs warships in commodity quantities for specific tasks, and not multifunctional station wagons, which equally well know nothing.
              The idea of ​​using half a GEM from the future destroyer \ frigate (?) 22350M as a GEM for a promising, inexpensive and mass frigate of 4000-4500 tons is asked for itself. We are now not in a better position than the USA after the lost war in Vietnam, we need an inexpensive solution to extremely urgent issues. Therefore, the article is timely, interesting and useful.
              Timokhin is an indifferent, honest man, rooting for the fate of the fleet. He may be mistaken in some ways in his conclusions and proposals, but he does not have an evil intention, covered by patriotic rhetoric. He does his job as best he can and I am grateful to him for the article.
              1. -1
                6 December 2019 00: 13
                Explain to me the purpose of a large series of obviously weak in all respects ships? This is the last century! even if we assume that it will be possible to rivet them quickly, one for each NATO pennant, then for each such ship, which is basically weak, you still need a leash from a tanker, tugboat, supply vessel. For each, one needs to learn and grow an officer of the Fleet at the VMU, midshipmen need specialists, for all they need houses, social services, training classes, also officers and midshipmen of the coastal service, MTO berths ... I believe that what is being done, even if not so magnificent as desirable, calmly and progressively, is done right. Moreover, the main thing is done, as always, away from curious eyes, including the eyes of the public and activists. The victory of the Russian fleet in war is the prevention of war. The principle of guaranteed mutual destruction has not been canceled. Everything else is for fans of computer games.
                1. +1
                  6 December 2019 02: 25
                  Quote: LeonidL
                  Explain to me the purpose of a large series of obviously weak in all respects ships? This is the last century!

                  Why are they "weak in all respects"? The single-shaft scheme of "Oliver H. Perry" has demonstrated high reliability and performance. And still demonstrates. There will definitely not be a drop in speed in comparison with 22350. The power of its afterburner turbines is 27 x 500 = 2 hp and a speed of 55 knots. With a displacement of 000 tons. The total capacity of two turbines when operating on one gearbox M-29Fr and M-5300 will give 90 + 70 = 27 l / s, with a displacement of max. 500 tons, which will provide a maximum speed of the same 12 knots. So there is no loss in terms of speed characteristics. Moreover, with this scheme, on the march it will be able to go both on the M-000 (which will allow to have a high economic speed - 39 l / s versus 500 l / s with a difference in displacement), and on the M-4FR (so to speak - maximum cruising mode), and if necessary, give full speed, both turbines will work simultaneously, providing a speed of 500 knots. As with "Gorshkov", which everyone is happy with.
                  In terms of armament, there is also an approximate parity with the first version of 22350 - 16 CD in the UVP, and for complete unification - "Polyment-Redut" (since it is now put on corvettes).
                  Saving internal volumes and displacement thanks to a single-shaft power plant makes it possible to place approximately the same weapons in a smaller body, and the ability to base 2 helicopters on board will provide better combat capabilities for anti-aircraft defense, reconnaissance of surface conditions, and greater flexibility in combat use.
                  And all this for much less money and with much more unification. The industry will drive the same type of power plant for two types of ships, which will lead to lower prices, improve quality and reliability due to a large series.
                  Quote: LeonidL
                  rivet them quickly, one for each NATO pennant

                  What kind of fantasies, the number we will never defeat them. We need warships to replace the old BOD 1135, BSK and other rarities. Ships should be enough to carry out all the basic tasks of the fleet. First of all, ensuring a safe exit from the bases of our nuclear submarines and ensuring their combat deployment, isolating this area from the presence of submarines, combat, anti-submarine and patrol aircraft of the enemy. Exactly for this we need such ships in SUFFICIENT quantities.
                  Well, for representative needs, sending such a ship is much easier and cheaper, without distracting the main ships from more important tasks.
                  Quote: LeonidL
                  For each, one needs to learn and grow an officer of the Fleet from the cadet at the VMU, midshipmen need specialists, for all they need houses, social services, training classes, that is, officers and midshipmen of the coastal service, ITO berths ...

                  And without these ships you do not need to do all of the above? If these ships will replace the old watchmen, BOD and other veterans, then the crews will simply be transferred to new ships. And these ships will not need any special berthing infrastructure, tea is not aircraft carriers or BDK. And do not forget that for spare parts, components and consumables they have maximum unification with the new ships 22350 and 22350M.
                  Quote: LeonidL
                  The principle of guaranteed mutual destruction has not been canceled.

                  Are you about global war?
                  And what about the underwater?
                  How many minutes will our submarines live in the sea after the start of the conflict, having less perfect hydroacoustics, frankly weak torpedoes and the complete absence of anti-torpedo protection.

                  And to the previous question. I am an officer. Stock. So a professional, although not a naval one, but my friend took part in the military council of the Pacific Fleet ... we talk sometimes.
                  And as an air defense officer, I understand the topic of anti-torpedo protection somewhat better than an artilleryman or infantryman ... specifics ... Well, the experience of interspecific interaction.
                  1. -1
                    7 December 2019 04: 41
                    The point is also about singleness, this is the last century, it's not about speed, but what tasks and where to solve. Well, there are no global tasks to be solved for the Russian traditional surface fleet! You are talking about speed, but I am giving a real example of the sailing of Russian ships across three seas - a tanker, a tugboat, and so on, small things. It is clear that the speed of the leash is far from the same. This is time. The only combat unit must cover the missile defense / anti-aircraft defense / air defense of the entire caravanserai. How long will it last? Or abandon ... and cover the submarine? And how will an underfregat cover it for a long time in conditions of enemy superiority? T e Do you assign at least two warships the role of kamikaze? They will not send such a thing to representative offices - prestige is more expensive. That is why the heavy cruisers "Orlany" are being restored - this is the representative office, and not the armored scaffold or the under-frigate. You have deigned to call the ships rarities - but look at the service times of ships of other fleets. Not noticeable? For this, modernization takes place if the cases fully meet the requirements. You write that these underships, they say, will replace the old ships and new officers are not needed. It will be funny and sad to watch the fleet in such a state. Well, about the Premier League. In the event of a global conflict, these are suicide bombers for one volley, and they already know it. Therefore, the victory of the fleet is not a skirmish in a hypothetical sea exploration of the last century such as Jutland, but the prevention and prevention of war as such! And this requires not myriads of underships, not huge floating targets for hypersonic missiles, but the latest means based on the latest scientific principles. Some of this Putin opened a little, and the rest, as it should be, behind closed doors, although there is probably a permissible leak ... for the sake of prevention. so do not be delighted with the delights of amateurs whose goal is to tear up the budget with zero, not even a negative result.
                    1. +1
                      7 December 2019 07: 53
                      Quote: LeonidL
                      The point is one thing, this is the last century, the point is not speed, but what tasks and where to solve. Well, there is no global solvable task for the Russian surface traditional fleet!

                      Well, let's point by point:
                      - "Sameness is the last century". Yes, our naval commanders and sailors laughed at the single-shaft design of Oliver H. Perry ... But was this type of ship embarrassed at least once because of this particular feature? I do not know of such cases. The ship was built in huge series and has served well.
                      And I voiced my proposal not for the sake of the scheme itself, as such and its advantages, but because we have very big problems with shipborne power plants ... and at the same time it’s a variety of grades. And if the industry is already launching the production of these turbines and running gears for them (for 22350 and 22350M) and the fate of project 22350 is not clear in terms of continuing the series ... most likely it will be limited to 8 pieces and will immediately begin the 22350M series. But this is essentially a full-fledged destroyer - a ship of a completely different class ... and tasks. And what about the need for DMF frigates and anti-submarine ships? Built is extremely insufficient.
                      So there was a proposal for a cheaper frigate with half the power plant from 22350M, and at the same time I would not put the prefix "under" on it, because due to the economy in displacement and internal volumes, although it is 500 - 800 tons lighter than "Gorshkov", but it is capable of having the same set of weapons - 16 KR in the UVP, Polyment-Redut, the same GAK, BIUS, Packet-NK, and unlike Gorshkov, not one, two helicopters. And where is the "under"? Plus it will have some benefits. Firstly, at the expense of the M-70 sustainer turbine (12 l / s versus 000 l / s in 10), which will provide it with a high economic speed, for the lack of which Gorshkov is so often criticized. Secondly, these are 400 helicopters instead of one, which gives an advantage in anti-submarine work. Thirdly, a single-shaft power plant is easier and cheaper to maintain, repair, requires a smaller number of l / s.
                      And by the way, Timokhin did not support my idea with a single-shaft scheme, he was more impressed by the cheap frigate PLO on diesels ... I also offered this one about a year ago, but ... for diesels, we have even more gag ...
                      I repeat, I proposed a single-shaft scheme based on the fact that it already exists - half of the GEM from 22350M, in order to unify, reduce the cost and save internal volumes and, as a result, displacement. If, after the launch of the 22350M series, the 22350+ frigates continue to lay in parallel flow, my proposal loses its meaning and is withdrawn, because 22350 has already been mastered by the industry, cooperation has been established, which means there will be no gain from my proposal.
                      Quote: LeonidL
                      You are talking about speed, and I give a real example of sailing Russian ships over three seas - a tanker, a tug boat, and so on in small things. It is clear that the leash is far from the leash.

                      Well, it depends on where to go, if to the round-the-world or from the Baltic to the Pacific Fleet or to Venezuela, then yes. But any other ship will need such an escort ... Although it is not always necessary if there are states ready to provide their ports for refueling and replenishment. In the same Mediterranean, there are such states - Syria, Egypt, Algeria. There are some states in Africa, and India probably will not refuse, and Vietnam declared readiness.
                      Regarding the cover of nuclear submarines in areas of combat deployment. These are the so-called bastions, they are removed from the enemy’s ground bases and the main danger will be from the enemy’s nuclear submarines, against which the appropriate outfit of anti-submarine ships is needed, and from the air to the bastions the enemy’s basic fighter aircraft can hardly reach - far, anti-submarine aviation is more dangerous here the enemy, against which both its own basic aircraft and air defense systems of the cover ships will act. And in order to cope with all this successfully, there should be SUFFICIENT number of anti-submarine ships in the area, preferably frigates, for corvettes with their displacement, seaworthiness and autonomy are weak assistants. Light frigates with 2 helicopters on board each for such purposes are the best. Yes, and they will have to conduct naval battles in bastions only against the enemy’s submarines, because the main forces of the fleet at the borders of this bastion will talk with the enemy’s surface forces.
                      Quote: LeonidL
                      this requires not a myriad of underships, not huge floating targets for hypersonic missiles, but the latest tools based on the latest scientific principles.

                      What hypersonic missiles are you talking about? The enemy does not have them in the anti-ship incarnation, even in projects ... and in no incarnation. And it won’t be for a long time.
                      The maximum that can be applied against cover ships in the area of ​​combat deployment is the Kyrgyz Republic, mainly subsonic and enemy aircraft. Well, and sub.
                      Quote: LeonidL
                      so it’s not worth the enthusiasm for the delights of amateurs whose goal is to tear the budget to zero, there is not even a negative result.

                      I repeat once again - Timokhin did not call for the construction of single-shaft frigates of the Oliver H. Perry type; moreover, he did not support my proposal of a single-shaft frigate on half of the 22350M power plant. He generally cited this example as an approach to solving the problem of building a large number of the required type of ships with limited funding for the program. As an example of creating an inexpensive ship with sufficient characteristics. For the sake of the same example, he cited the "Varshavyanka", which, while not possessing outstanding advantages, nevertheless allow solving the problems of replenishing the fleet with the necessary type of ships.
                      Without the proper number of effective anti-submarine ships, the value of one of the parts of our nuclear triad is reduced ... by a factor. And this issue must be resolved as soon as possible, at a high pace and for a reasonable price.
                      1. -1
                        8 December 2019 02: 18
                        You are quite convincing in arguing your opinion, it commands respect, but the point is different. "Varshavyanka" - a strategic weapon or not? Of course not. And we are talking about the fact that it is necessary to build a Fleet with strategic, newest weapons, to spend money on this, to go ahead, and not to lag behind with inexplicably riveted cheap handicrafts. A smaller price - a larger number. God forbid it happens to be at war, then any rusty barge from a marquise puddle, Ladoga, Volga, Amur, Golden Horn ... etc., can launch calibers from canteners ... decisions of the military-political display of the flag, to combat piracy. Battles like Jutland must be forgotten once and for all. Missions for the Navy are now in the Arctic and at the TF. Moreover, I believed and still believe that China could become the main enemy. Everything depends on two main factors - the internal situation in Russia and the internal situation in China. Russia will weaken, for example, with a weak leader such as MG, EBN, DM, and the neighbors will have an incentive to take, for example, the Kuril Islands or Siberia with the Far East. here a dozen under-frigates will not help the business, the Japanese already have a modern fleet and not half and not enough, and more opportunities, therefore it is necessary to restore what is already there, modernize and re-equip, but again so without excessive financial fanaticism. Should the Chinese economy collapse, and this may happen as a result of butting with the United States, the communists will try to solve internal problems through a small victorious war with the weak RF. But in this case, the main events will not be on the shoulders of the fleet, but on the shoulders of the ground forces, aerospace forces. Again, the PRC fleet is already one of the largest and most modern, it has a dozen semi-frigates per tooth. So why waste your money?
                      2. +1
                        8 December 2019 05: 01
                        Quote: LeonidL
                        "Varshavyanka" - a strategic weapon or not? Of course not. And we are talking about the fact that you need to build a Fleet with strategic, modern weapons, this is what you spend money on, go ahead, and not lag behind with inexplicably riveted cheap handicrafts

                        "Varshavyanka" - diesel-electric submarine designed for operations in BMZ, watch in the strait zones, laying minefields, ensuring the safe withdrawal and entry of nuclear submarines into bases (cover), PLO of the near sea zone. To strike at coastal and continental targets, they can have on board up to 8 - 10 KR "Caliber" of various modifications and different combat equipment, including nuclear warheads, which, in turn, gives them operational and strategic importance.
                        But the strategic forces of the fleet, of course, are the nuclear submarines with SLBMs, which must be guarded and covered both at the bases and in the areas of combat deployment / duty. It is stupid and irrational to distract the main forces of the fleet for this, especially in a peace period, for this a special tool is needed - a frigate DMZ with anti-submarine sharpening of weapons and sufficient air defense equipment to protect the area from enemy patrol and submarines. Frigate - because it has sufficient seaworthiness and autonomy and is capable of carrying a helicopter \ you PLO. A sufficient outfit of forces is needed to isolate the combat deployment area, because the area of ​​such a district / bastion is large, it is necessary to be on duty for a sufficiently long time, and this must be done WITHOUT using the BASIC ships of the fleet. This is a job for PLO / AAF frigates, they DO NOT have the RIGHT to be expensive and must be the same for all fleets. These are not the main (!), But vital ships for the full functioning of the fleet, as a single organism. Their characteristics should not be outstanding, but MUST be sufficient. And the price is acceptable. The construction cycle is relatively small, and the number on each fleet is optimal.
                        The pre-desired amount of them needed in the fleets seems to me so _
                        -TOF - 6 - 8 pcs.
                        - SF - 6 - 8 pcs.
                        - Black Sea Fleet - 6 pieces, half of which can be sent to the Mediterranean Sea on an ongoing basis as part of the 5th oesk.
                        - BF - 3 - 4.

                        This is by no means a "weakened" or "toothless" frigate, since, since 16 UVP in the UKSK can contain both 8 submarines of Caliber missiles, and 8 more anti-ship missiles of the Zircon, Onyx class, or the same number of shock missiles "Caliber" and "Caliber-M" for work on land. Exactly the same number as in "Gorshkov." "Polyment-Redut" will provide reliable air defense coverage and coverage of the air situation, and a good GAK (the same as in " Gorshkov ") and two helicopters will ensure quality work for the main purpose of this ship - PLO.
                        I don’t know about you, but I see such a ship as a completely toothy and self-sufficient warship of the far sea zone, which will not be offended by surface ships of the enemy, nor its combat aircraft, nor even its submarines. Especially if he acts not alone, but in a group. In addition, such a ship will turn out to be an excellent escort frigate ... and by no means expensive.
                        As for the "strategic and most modern forces of the fleet" ... as I understand it, I mean large surface ships of the 1st rank?
                        Well, let's talk about them.
                        Firstly, the 22350M is one of those - the ship of the ocean zone with 48 KR on board. They are currently ordered 12 pcs. and an option is possible for another 6 pcs. ... say, 6 pcs. to each of the main fleets. Already something, and in 10 - 12 years they may already be in service if something does not happen again in the country and the world.
                        So let's talk about what we could / would like to have in the fleet in 10-12 years.
                        Do you agree?
                        So:
                        - at least 12 destroyers 22350M;
                        - 2 nuclear-powered cruisers of the "Orlan" class (80 CR each);
                        - 2 cruisers of type 1164 "Atlant" ("Moscow" will most likely be written off by that time) at the limit of validity;
                        - 8 frigates 22350 and 22350+ (built under existing contracts);
                        - 4 - 6 BOD 1155 after modernization \ calibration;
                        - 3 - 4 (if another one is completed, in which there are doubts, but plans were voiced) frigate 11356;
                        - at least 10 fully completed "Boeev" and "Boreyev-M", and, possibly, 2 - 4 "Borey-K" - with CD in the launch tubes ... it is possible that some of the latter will still be completed ... but most likely still in the ranks;
                        - at least 10 fully completed Ash trees;
                        - and ... drum roll ... about 12 frigates proposed by your humble servant, and the same number in completion and order.

                        Don't you find that without the last paragraph, the list looks incomplete and not balanced?

                        I don’t mention about corvettes, RTOs and other diesel-electric submarines, nor about the MAPL of the previous buildings, because I don’t know how many of them will remain in service.
                        I also do not mention the 941 shock projects, because they began to modernize them for new CDs (including "Zircon", but how much they will manage before they are written off - I don't know ... let's say 4 - 6 pcs.
                        I will also keep silent about UDC, BDK and other "aircraft carriers", because they do not belong to the strike forces of the fleet.

                        So, without the above frigates, or their analogues (the continuation of the 22350+ line would be a good solution), the fleet looks extremely unbalanced, because the vast majority of 1135 and 1124 will be written off by that time, and the rest will not meet the time requirements.

                        The aforementioned frigates or their analogues require 24-30 pcs. to all fleets. Considering that 8 pcs. has already been contracted and under construction / built (22350), then little remains to be done, either continue the 22350+ line in parallel with the construction of the 22350M series, or accept my proposal and build a series of about 20 light PLO frigates (+ -). In addition, if we restrict ourselves to ASW functions and simplify air defense (taking into account that ships will have to operate mainly in "bastions", BMZ, or as part of a group), say, to the level of "Pantsir-M" ... its price will be reduced even more. Suppose the price tag is in the region of 20 billion rubles. + - depending on the choice of air defense.

                        And I repeat, now we are talking exclusively about DMZ anti-submarine ships with the functions of escort ships.
                      3. -1
                        9 December 2019 02: 12
                        I do not dispute your data, but I repeat, this is not a solution to geopolitical issues. All this fits perfectly into the Procrustean bed of past wars, but, alas or thank God, most likely it will never be realized in the future. Perhaps I am wrong, but an armed conflict of such intensity, where the "bastion" will be realized, is unlikely. With a small degree of probability, it can be predicted as a conflict with a country that is not a member of NATO - Ukraine, Georgia. But even without the "bastion" everything will be resolved very quickly. With a greater degree of probability, I can imagine a conflict in the Far East, but as I already wrote, only with a sharp weakening of the internal political situation in the Russian Federation, or with the collapse of the policy of state communism in the PRC. But at the moment, the likelihood of such a development of events is small. Although you need to prepare. That is, not to build a second-seat fleet for everything and everywhere, but to create promising groupings of ships on the Northern Fleet and TF, capable, in the event of aggression, to resist either the fleet of Japan or the PRC. I think that in the latter case, history will repeat itself and to a greater or lesser extent there will be cooperation between the Russian Federation and the United States. As it has always been in world history. With regard to China, I completely exclude cooperation - the Chinese, according to their Confuunian ideology, according to the history of the Middle Empire, according to their mentality, are interested only in their own benefit, and not in helping anyone else. It is thanks to this that they managed to reconcile with almost all neighbors. But in any case - the emphasis in the Russian Federation is and will continue to be placed on new, non-traditional models of strategic weapons - only they can become guarantors of non-aggression against Russia. I repeat - the victory of the Russian Navy in preventing a war with Russia. And for this polulokhanki are not suitable.
                      4. 0
                        9 December 2019 21: 19
                        Quote: bayard
                        ... 22350M just refers to those - the ship of the ocean zone with 48 KR on board. Their today ordered 12 pcs...
                        Stop. Stop. Stop !! They cannot be ordered for today, because so far only a preliminary design has been born ... Not even a technical one, but only a preliminary one ... !!
                        Quote: bayard
                        So let's talk about so that we can \ would like have in the fleet in 10 - 12 years.
                        ...
                        Quote: bayard

                        So:
                        - at least 12 destroyers 22350M;
                        - 2 nuclear-powered cruisers of the "Orlan" class (80 CR each);
                        - 2 cruisers of type 1164 "Atlant" ("Moscow" will most likely be written off by that time) at the limit of validity;
                        - 8 frigates 22350 and 22350+ (built under existing contracts) ....
                        - and ... drum roll ... about 12 frigates proposed by your humble servant, and the same number in completion and order.
                        Yes, you are my friend, an incorrigible optimist, however !!
                      5. 0
                        9 December 2019 22: 19
                        As comrade Carlson said: "Calm. Only calm."

                        Quote: Vl Nemchinov
                        Quote: bayard
                        ... 22350M just refers to those - the ship of the ocean zone with 48 KR on board. Today they are ordered 12 pcs.
                        Stop. Stop. Stop !! They cannot be ordered for today, because so far only a preliminary design has been born ... Not even a technical one, but only a preliminary one ... !!

                        The Supreme Commander-in-Chief announced his intention to build 18 such ships, later it was clarified that 12 copies would be ordered at the first stage. The fact that by the end of December only a preliminary design should be adopted, after which it is expected to spend 1,5 years on the preparation of a full set of technical documentation, I know. Therefore, I hope that the first 22350M will be laid down approximately in 2 years.
                        The pace of laying is expected in 2 buildings per year, the construction period is 5 years before the delivery of each fleet. At this pace, in 10 years the fleet can get 10 - 12 of these ships. So my optimism is incorrigible, but based on some calculations and the realization that the construction of this type of ship will be under special control.
                        At the beginning of this year, 2 22350+ buildings were laid, at the beginning of the future 2 more buildings will be laid, and it seems that already in Kaliningrad. In any case, bookmark places are already being prepared.
                        Therefore, there is some reason to expect that the pace of bookmarks 22350+, and then 22350M will be observed in the future. It is on the basis of these plans that it was assumed that from the moment the project 22350M is ready, they will be laid INSTEAD OF 22350+, at two shipyards simultaneously. Whether the capacities of the plants for the construction by the parallel flows of both projects will suffice, there is no certainty. In any case, at the initial stage.
                        It is from the realization that with the start of construction of the 22350M series, the laying of 22350+ can be stopped, I proposed the design of the PLO frigate as unified as possible (including the GEM) with 22350M), but cheap ... and they will have to be built, most likely, at other capacities ... though ...
                        “What we want / can” just means that we can expect exactly such results from our shipbuilding program, the industry is able to provide such rates. Any business can be ruined, but the potential is just that.
                        And there is no longer an opportunity to pull the cat for belonging - you have to build. Moreover, the technical obstacles to this, mainly, have been overcome - both for the power plant (turbine, gearbox and partly the diesel engine), and for the air defense ("Polyment-Redut"). So if disruptions start again, this is sabotage.
                      6. +1
                        9 December 2019 23: 23
                        Quote: bayard
                        Supreme Commander Announces Intention to Build 18 such ships , later there was a clarification that at the first stage 12 copies will be ordered
                        I don’t know your name, but your optimism, I like it !! It just blew, - "... but the lips whisper in tune, in four years there will be a garden city here !! ...".
                        Quote: bayard
                        Moreover, the technical obstacles to this have mainly been overcome - both for the power plant (turbine, gearbox and partly diesel), and for the air defense ("Polyment-Redut")
                        , but what about the class / type SJC - "Zvezda-2", how ?! There is a strong belief that OJSC "Taganrog Plant" Priboy "(or who else might" be in the subject ") will not disappoint ?!
                        Quote: bayard
                        The pace of laying is expected in 2 buildings per year, the construction period is 5 years before the delivery of each fleet. At this pace, in 10 years the fleet can get 10 - 12 of these ships
                        Well, in practice, unfortunately, more and more often it looks like - "it was smooth on paper ...". Didn't you get that impression ?! Today, the construction period of a corvette 20380 (a much smaller ship, and with a spent power plant existing in the metal) manage to stretch for 4,5 years ?!
                        Quote: bayard
                        if disruptions start again, this is sabotage
                        quite admit it to myself. Although like you, I would really like to see the revival of the fleet in the shortest period of time ... But unfortunately, I also observe objective prerequisites for the opposite. Want a clear example ?! Excuse me ... Well, let's say you over optimistic imagined that -
                        Quote: bayard
                        ... let's talk about what we could / would like to have in the fleet in 10-12 years
                        where they allowed themselves to imagine, including -
                        Quote: bayard
                        4 - 6 BOD 1155 after modernization\ calibration
                        ?! But you and I can easily observe that to this day the Russian Federation is not building a second marine gas turbine engine building enterprise, but continues to rely on Saturn. GTE analogues of which GEM 1155 consists, - Each unit includes a marching engine GTE D090 with a capacity of 9000 liters. with. and afterburning GTE DT59 with a capacity of 22 500 liters. with. Well, just not, and not foreseen ... Now estimate what you plan 10 years of harsh exploitation in which these ships are located today ...?! their motor resources ...?! and ...?! planned by you - 4 - 6 BOD 1155 after modernization I already think too optimistic ...?! For example, the Chinese have already bought the documentation for the UGT25000 from Zorya-Mashproekt and set up large-scale serial production of these gas turbine engines (under the index - QC280, opening their licensed production), since they were planning a series of powerful modern EMs of type 055 !! There you can see a meticulous and scrupulous, serious approach to government shipbuilding programs. The approach is comprehensive and integral !! Unfortunately, in the post of Soviet Russia, I do not see this. I talk about the great shipbuilding plans, but I observe, but unfortunately there is no integral and comprehensive approach to this issue ... Maybe I'm just blind ?! But how would I like to see well-coordinated, with the greatest efficiency, systematic work in this direction (instead of a talking shop), and shy away either in the direction of a "promising aircraft carrier", then in the direction of the UDC of the Mistral / Priboy / Avalanche type, or Poseidon. , then 20386 "Mercury", well, etc. !!! Now 5 years have passed after the coup in Ukraine (Zorya-Mashproekt's shipbuilding capacity was lost ...) !! China creates its powerful gas turbine engine building (necessary for the construction of large warships) because it is engaged in the development of the fleet, but the Russian Federation - no ?!
                      7. +1
                        10 December 2019 04: 17
                        Quote: Vl Nemchinov
                        I don’t know your name, but your optimism, I like it !! It just blew, - "... but the lips whisper in tune, in four years there will be a garden city here !! ...".

                        I did my best . Yes
                        But seriously, to us without optimism - nowhere, I’m writing from Donetsk.
                        Quote: Vl Nemchinov
                        , but what about the class / type SJC - "Zvezda-2", how ?! There is a strong belief that OJSC "Taganrog Plant" Priboy "(or who else might" be in the subject ") will not disappoint ?!

                        I don’t know this, but what is already on the “Gorshkov” will go to start the series. I understand your craving for maximalism in this area, but a proven "what is" is better than an unassimilated "something". And the hangar for 2 helicopters will expand the possibilities in anti-submarine work, and then you look and a suitable SAC will be drawn. The main thing is that any innovation does not affect the pace of construction / commissioning.

                        Quote: Vl Nemchinov
                        "it was smooth on paper ...". Didn't you get that impression ?! Today, the construction period of a corvette 20380 (a much smaller ship, and with a spent power plant existing in the metal) manage to stretch for 4,5 years ?!

                        Alternatively, you can look at the pace / timing of the construction of the Black Sea frigates of project 11356 or the same "Varshavyanka" - a developed project with well-established cooperation is being built at an almost Soviet pace. But 22350 is being built in a large series (by our standards) - already 6 pieces have been laid, 2 more in the spring, and 22350M grows out of an already debugged project with improving cooperation. It is easier to build products of the same type.
                        Quote: Vl Nemchinov
                        planned by you - 4-6 BOD 1155 after modernization seem to me too optimistic

                        I will not argue, there is "optimism" in this, but it must be taken into account that the Marshal Shaposhnikov BPK at the time of delivery for modernization was slow and the main problem was precisely the repair of a power plant that was no longer produced, and he was the first to modernize it, the shipyard at this order came back to life ... therefore, the timing ... But if you send for modernization the running BODs, with the best condition of the power plant, then the modernization of those will be significantly accelerated, after all, they went to a minimum - 16 UVP instead of the second gun and the X-35 instead of "Trumpet", and of the BEO update. In addition, I hope that another enterprise will join the BOD modernization program, because you cannot drive such companies from the Northern Fleet to the Pacific Fleet. And in two hands, 2 - 3 ships can be upgraded. After all, the main thing for them (the modernized BOD) is to make it to the end of the 22350M series, which is 10 - 15 years, and there you can go to rest.
                        Quote: Vl Nemchinov
                        For example, the Chinese have already bought the documentation for the UGT25000 from Zorya-Mashproekt and have launched a large-scale serial production of these gas turbine engines.

                        As far as I have heard, "Zorya-Mashproekt" is now working in 2 - 3 shifts for China, this is what allowed to raise the pace of construction of the Chinese fleet to such a scale. But a planned economy and a systemic, integrated approach are on the face and one can only envy.
                        In our country, in addition to corruption, foolishness (shuffling) and direct sabotage, there were also objective reasons for the failure of quite sane programs for building a series of corvettes and frigates, although these "objective reasons" stemmed from mistakes in strategic planning. They expected to have Ukraine as part of the Eurasian Union, but they got an enemy and a mass of plans and deadlines were thwarted.
                        And since gas turbine engineering is just being revived, we should not force it with unnecessary requests for a wide range of products, but design and build ships using the turbines, diesel engines and gearboxes that it (the industry) is already capable of producing. Only the same type of power plant! And large (for us) series of the same type of ships! The industry should be comfortable during its revival ... then it will grow up healthy and strong.
                      8. +1
                        9 December 2019 22: 11
                        Quote: LeonidL
                        And the point is that the Fleet needs to be built with strategic, latest weapons,
                        ...
                        Quote: LeonidL
                        ... instead of lagging behind with incomprehensible why riveted cheap crafts. At a lower price - a larger number.
                        I beg your pardon that I got into your argument, somewhat unceremoniously, but, with your last statement, I disagree fundamentally !! Three or four of the most modern and super-expensive "Ash-M" (in my subjective opinion, of course), are much less dangerous for the enemy (in tactical terms), and therefore less useful to their own Navy than those built for the same amount of 6-7 (if no more) "Pike-B" (Project 971). And even more useful (again from my point of view), I would see the creation (for the same amount from the budget) 10-12 multipurpose nuclear submarines, a modern project of even smaller VI. Something in between the Soviet projects "Condor" ("Barakuda") and etc. 671 RTMK - "Pike", with the use of a high degree of automation and the most rational hull contours, by analogy with the project 705 "Lira". Probably, at the current level, the reactor there would be much smaller than at the RTMK (something of the promising, such as RITM-2000, for example, adapted to the submarine). According to VI, approximately 4500-5500 tons. All this, in principle, is said to the fact that more the number of new combat units in the fleet is far from secondary, and one of the main arguments, I see it in this, is - most rational spendingallocated to the fleet! The USSR, in turn, at first almost reached quantitative parity with the United States, creating nuclear submarines of the 2nd and 3rd generations, by the end of the seventies and eighties, and only then, began to make a quantum leap !! Already only later, allowing himself to be sick with gigantomania, and building a "victory of technology over common sense" (as the engineers called it - pr.941). Today's RF, on the contrary, having lost almost quantitative parity after cutting / cutting new (which did not serve out their nuclear submarines) in the 90s, and with a much less powerful economy, swung at "Ash-M" ... right away ?! In my opinion, it is too bold, not rational, and burdensome for the defense budget ... The composition of the same Pacific Fleet, today, is the most colorful confirmation of this !!
                      9. +1
                        10 December 2019 05: 17
                        An excellent analysis, especially the assessment of the Yasen-M project in modern realities. After all, it came out twice as expensive as the same "Borey-M". And the size? For a multipurpose nuclear submarine, it is too large, and for an attack submarine (CR) ... it would be wiser to lay several Boreis as carriers of the CR in the launch tubes. And the price would be half the price, and the ammunition load would be expanded to 112 KR. I once expressed a similar thought on VO and ... lo and behold, literally a month or two later, Shoigu announced that he intends to order 2 Borei-K class nuclear submarines as carriers of CD with an option for 2 more units. I don't know what kind of wind brought such a sound idea into his head, but I was completely satisfied fellow ... And then there was a message that it was decided to lay down 2 more "Boreya-M" (which is reasonable) and 2 "Ash-M", which somewhat puzzled ... Apparently there is no ready-made project for a new hunter, "Husky" seems to have been called, and the fleet is asking exactly this - like "Pike-B" or even more nimble. If the continuation of the order for "Ash" is only out of desire, so that the slipways do not stand idle ... it is better then "Borey-K" - and more powerful in a salvo, and half the price.
    2. +3
      3 December 2019 10: 46
      Quote: LeonidL
      This man without military education, without naval education, never commander of anyone indiscriminately humiliates and insults everything done without him and in spite of his "wise" advice.

      Well, if people with a military education and rich team experience drove the situation in one place with the letter z, then what should I do? bully
      Quote: LeonidL
      this kind of riveting of ships according to the Khrushchev principle "like sausages"

      is it better to build a fleet of samples? bully
      1. -1
        5 December 2019 00: 32
        "people with military education and rich command experience drove the situation into one place with the letter z." - Sergei is your personal opinion, how much it corresponds to reality is difficult for you to judge, to put it mildly. Stay with yours, admire Timokhin ... but the question "Will you go to a professional doctor or psychic fortune-teller without medical education, without medical practice, but suddenly decided to declare herself a super-specialist"? So Timokhin, due to the lack of special knowledge, service experience, normal maritime education, can only compile pictures and draw profound conclusions for an even more unassuming audience.
        1. 0
          5 December 2019 04: 33
          In Russia today there are a lot of wonderful specialists. There are many remarkable governors and regional ministers, industry leaders and simply heads of important areas ... And lately, the Investigative Committee and special services have been paying attention to the results of their, of course, very professional activities.
          There was a wonderful governor Khoroshavin - an excellent specialist.
          And the former leadership of Roskosmos, which brought huge money out of the country and left for the radiant West ...
          And how many excellent construction managers of the Vostochny cosmodrome have received the attention and care of the competent authorities?
          And do not count.
          And the Ministry of Defense can be "proud" of a considerable number of specialists and professionals in their field, who have received the attention of the watchful eye of the guardians of capitalist legality
          A good person is not a profession, and a professional is not an indulgence. High-flying professionals, the devil confuses much more often than a simpler person ... even if he is a good person and a wonderful professional.
          A professional, vested with power, caresses business, and special services unfriendly will pay attention to us. Indeed, in the conditions of developed capitalism, an official is often much more profitable (in material terms) to do nothing than honestly fulfill his duties and justify the high confidence of the motherland ...
          Indeed, under capitalism, the motherland is where they pay more.
          Right ? wink
          1. -1
            5 December 2019 07: 52
            You have correctly noted that Russia lives under capitalism. This is your choice, you stood for it at the White House, with your chest for Yeltsin, for "living like the French unemployed" ... So that is what it is. That Timokhin's spells will help? But you are positioning yourself as a patriot? Right? So you are a patriot, but there are no patriots among the leadership? Do you a priori deny them patriotism? But, you must admit that in the years after Yeltsin and Co. Russia made a mighty leap forward. Who did it, if only you are the only patriot in the whole Russia? Putin and his team are doing what can be done - the maximum that is possible with the minimum of opportunities. RF is not the USSR. EP is not the Communist Party. The FSB is not the KGB, and therefore Putin is not Stalin either. Well, he does not have those levers, those opportunities, the party and the people that could run a distance of 10 in 50 years! Be realistic!
            1. +1
              5 December 2019 08: 51
              Quote: LeonidL
              This is your choice, you stood for it at the White House, with your chest for Yeltsin, for "living like the French unemployed" ... So that is what it is.

              This choice was made without me, it is not necessary so indiscriminately. Moreover, in 1993 I was not at all on the side of those who shouted "Finish the Russian reptile", but quite the opposite.
              Quote: LeonidL
              So you are a patriot, but there are no patriots among the leadership? Do you deny them a priori patriotism?

              Not at all. I have a very good attitude towards Vladimir Vladimirovich and his like-minded people, perhaps I even understand too well how difficult it is for him to solve security and development issues in the current conditions. That is why I will never accept direct sabotage for "professional work" without results. Or ostentatious idiocy for a "cunning plan" and a secret boon.
              The failures in naval construction are obvious and egregious. Including in the construction of the latest submarines, for which the money was always there. Why is the issue of anti-torpedo protection still not resolved? There are no technical problems. The technologies are worked out. In order, these systems are and are paid!
              ... who will answer?
              And after all, the experience of recent years shows that someone will still answer ... if he doesn’t have time to prudently dump him into the radiant West.
              If some officials and officials prefer to work not for their Country, but for the enemy, making one of the components of the nuclear triad defenseless, dooming our nuclear submarines to death right at the exit from the bases and in the areas of combat deployment ... having done almost nothing to ensure the PLO, anti-torpedo protection of submarines, leading to deadlock issues with torpedo rearmament ... even the all-conquering kindness and condescension of the Supreme Commander-in-Chief can exhaust his limit and give place to JUSTICE.
              I am a realist, therefore I believe in the inevitability of the necessary.
              1. -1
                5 December 2019 23: 56
                Are you a specialist, a professional in shipbuilding, do you have a naval education? If not, then all your fervor leaves with steam.
                1. +1
                  7 December 2019 18: 38
                  No, Lenya, it’s your fervor that goes away for nothing - people perfectly understand what you are laughing
                  1. -3
                    8 December 2019 01: 48
                    Hey, dear Mr. Timokhin, you are dear to become personalities from your hysterical impotence. The newly-minted Nelson, a naval commander and commander who never studied anywhere and never served anywhere. Do not rivet on people in vain - they understand, but they do not understand now, so they will understand a little later. They will understand what you are and what you are trying to manipulate the "public" to do.
            2. 0
              5 December 2019 15: 30
              Quote: LeonidL
              that Russia lives under capitalism.

              and the US does not live with it? hi
              Quote: LeonidL
              Are you the only patriot?

              and without transitions to the person is impossible? Or do you deny the right of Russian citizens to know what and how budget funds are spent?
              Quote: LeonidL
              Well, he doesn’t have those levers, those opportunities, that party and that people,

              1) you can’t ensure order - leave! request Russia lived without GDP and will live after it ...
              2) again, the people let us down? bully
              1. 0
                5 December 2019 15: 51
                and the US lives with it

                Capitalism to capitalism discord wink
                1. +2
                  6 December 2019 11: 08
                  Quote: strannik1985
                  Capitalism to capitalism discord

                  who argues, socialism is also different - see Kampuchea or Sweden ... request
                  1. +1
                    6 December 2019 13: 10
                    who argues, socialism is also different - see Kampuchea or Sweden ..

                    No, the Swedes have ordinary capitalism with a developed social system. The difference is different — a number of countries have agreed to support each other by non-market methods, the most striking of them being the United States, whose debts will never be paid, but the satellites also have their share. Even in December 2012, Sweden had an external debt level of 106 dollars per capita, for the Russian Federation a similar indicator of 851. Within the framework of the capitalist economy and finance, they will always be more effective due to the ability to print or receive unsecured money.
                    1. +1
                      6 December 2019 15: 18
                      Quote: strannik1985
                      No, the Swedes have ordinary capitalism with a developed social system.

                      terminology issue request if you are a supporter of ML, then yes ... hi
                      Quote: strannik1985
                      for the Russian Federation a similar indicator of 3 089

                      and this is the fault of our leadership - they save money, instead of investing in the economy request
                      Quote: strannik1985
                      The United States, whose debts will never be paid,

                      who knows - they just serve them and do not steam ..
                      1. +1
                        6 December 2019 16: 38
                        terminology issue

                        What difference does it make that two bearded men came up with it?
                        and this is the fault of our leadership

                        You can’t do it yourself, inflation wink We are not Japan. wink
                        In addition, until recently, we also serviced American debt. laughing
                        who knows

                        The "exceptional" ones from the 64th had a surplus for 2 years, in 1999-2000)))
              2. -2
                6 December 2019 00: 00
                Why is the question so unnerving? There is a right - within the limits determined by considerations of state security, otherwise this right will not be used by "non-citizens" either. Russia lived up to GDP - under the EBN. Are you completely satisfied with this life? And after the GDP will live - a question is how. The people, as always, are silent ... or with the help of gentlemen like Soros and the World Behind the Scenes, they run out to the Maidanchik, to the swamp ... after which, if the state does not show the people its true place, it becomes many times worse. Learn history, sweetie!
                1. 0
                  6 December 2019 11: 07
                  Quote: LeonidL
                  Why is the question so unnerving?

                  you? hi
                  Quote: LeonidL
                  otherwise, this right will not be used by "non-citizens" either.

                  so they already know - intelligence works, these are secrets from citizens of the Russian Federation ... However, there are progress - in the USSR they didn’t know anything ... request
                  Quote: LeonidL
                  Russia also lived before GDP - under the EBN. Are you completely satisfied with this living?

                  1) There were more terrible periods in the history of Russia than under EBN request I note that I always voted against him, at the end of 80 I was generally in the election headquarters of the opponents ... hi
                  2) EBN, like the USSR, is history, it is necessary to draw conclusions and strive to live better now and in the future ...
                  Quote: LeonidL
                  People as always silent

                  So you are the supporter, moreover, aggressive, of this ... request
                  Quote: LeonidL
                  if the state does not show the people its true place

                  everything is clear with you ... I recommend reading the Constitution of the Russian Federation - the source of power in Russia - its people ...
                  And the state was created so that the people would live better! If the state forgets about it. it happens 1917 or 1991 hi
                  Quote: LeonidL
                  Learn the story, dear!

                  Do you give me advice? bully
                  1. 0
                    7 December 2019 04: 23
                    You are delighted with the advice of a diligent and dunno, what are my advice to you? And the rule of the people is a complete fiction, which was proved by the first years after the adenia of the Romanov dynasty, until the leader of the people took power again and the people again became an executor, not a leader. Do you like the state of troubles and a pub with the letter "B" in Russia and the world? Then you, my dear, are a fan and follower of the World Backstage and Soros with their theory of world chaos. Have you heard of these? It is to chaos and uncertainty that Timokhin are pushing. look retrospectively his articles, well, except for articles about the advantage of light fighters, about Vietnam, about the internal combustion engine from the United States ... Look articles about the Navy. there is praise for the AUG with aircraft carriers, and calls to build them, and about the worthlessness of torpedoes and counter-torpedoes, about mining the Baltic Sea, about the latest theory of war at sea with the aim of capturing superiority (not even funny), there are so many things, and one clearly contradicts the other. finally - the construction of a lot of cheap half-destroyers, obviously losing in performance characteristics to everyone and everywhere, but ... a lot. That will be a laugh! Understand what kind of budget cut with a ridiculous result, and an article as a spoon, before the meeting on the Navy at GDP. there it means that some decisions are made for the country, factories are already being built for them, money is being allocated, etc., and he is against Timokhin and drives a wave of the public. And who is Timokhin? A specialist in combat aviation? On the history of Vietnam and Laos? I don't know, not a specialist, but the fact that he is not a professional and not an officer of the Navy - he himself confirmed this. Do not believe me - see his commentary on my note in the previous articles. Or ask him a direct question yourself. Timokhin does not stand at the combat post of an under-frigate or half-destroyer, God forbid that he will really have to get into battle ... and from the couch, of course, everything is cute and, most importantly, safe. In general, Timokhin seems to me to be a warmonger.
                    1. +1
                      7 December 2019 15: 21
                      Quote: LeonidL
                      You are enthusiastic about the advice of a dilent and dunno, what are my advice to you

                      1) and you justify the frank collapse of the fleet like a pro ... request
                      2) if not a secret - who are you? Write an article, discuss ... hi
                      Quote: LeonidL
                      until again the leader of the people took power and the people again became the executor, and not the leader.

                      not surprised - slave psychology is often found in Russia ... request
                      express one side of this - superiors are always right ... laughing
                      Quote: LeonidL
                      Do you like the state of troubles and a pub with the letter "B" in Russia and the world?

                      Bit thinking is characteristic of underdeveloped individuals .... It is for them that Marxists simplify everything ... hi See France - people are struggling with anti-people pension reform, we have been deceived by the people and silence ...
                      Quote: LeonidL
                      Then you, dearest, admirer and follower of the World Backstage and Soros with their theory of world chaos. Have you heard of such?

                      I do not read nonsense ... bully
                      Quote: LeonidL
                      Understand what a budget cut with a ridiculous result

                      if it's not a secret - is Timokhin to blame for reality? When ships in 2kt are built for 12-15 years? When are 4 types of new corvette in service? When are there problems with engines for ships, although 20 years have passed in the grip of GDP? Maybe it's time to disperse the "pros"? At least retired? bully
                      Quote: LeonidL
                      Timokhin does not stand on a combat post of a half-destroyer or half destroyer

                      1) Do you stand? If it's not a secret - did you graduate from the General Staff Academy?
                      2) For you, the RTOs under construction are not what you write about? Do you have a self-prop?
                      3) In my opinion - the hatred of Timokhin is a reflection of his opening a mess in the fleet in the media - are you connected with the leadership of the fleet or a volunteer? soldier
                      1. -3
                        8 December 2019 02: 01
                        Dear, you do not quite understand what you are writing about. the collapse of the Fleet was in the days of EBN, now the fleet is on its feet, and with the weapons that you had never dreamed of before, and you are trying to pipe the illiterate amateur, but successful scribbler, to pull everything into the last century. Regarding your supposedly caustic questions 1. I’m no longer standing, I began the officer service back in 1972. Retired after 43 and a half calendar. By the way, and with a pension probably more than your entire annual salary. 2. Timokhin, by virtue of his complete unpreparedness, simply cannot open anything, but can only raise a wave of public opinion, which, like him, did not have and does not have a relationship with the Fleet. By the way, the mess is inherent in all fleets of the world to a greater or lesser extent, but the history of the Fleet of Russia and the USSR shows a harmful influence on the fleet precisely of public opinion, which strengthens the mess. Neither you, nor Timokhin, nor I, by virtue of our situation today, are actually dedicated to real plans, fortunately for these plans. But if I know something, then I certainly won’t begin to talk about it on the pages of VO. Like that.
                      2. +3
                        9 December 2019 13: 54
                        Quote: LeonidL
                        By the way, and with a pension probably more than your entire annual salary.

                        Do you know the size of my earnings? bully Funny you ... a mixture of inferiority and excellence complexes ...
                        Quote: LeonidL
                        I began the officer service back in 1972. Retired after 43 and a half calendar

                        everything is clear with you - you are defending the honor of the uniform .. bully Sorry for you ... hi
                        Quote: LeonidL
                        now the fleet is on its feet

                        This is when a corvette in 2ct is built for 12 years? hi Or fleet replenish MRK or patrol, like border guards? fool
                        Quote: LeonidL
                        By the way, the mess is inherent in all fleets of the world to a greater or lesser extent,

                        I’ll tell you a secret - the mess is inherent in everything ... request The level is important ....
                        Quote: LeonidL
                        shows the harmful influence of public opinion on the fleet,

                        I understand that in the quiet of secrets it is more comfortable ... bully
                        Quote: LeonidL
                        But if I know something,

                        Retirement tales? bully
                      3. -3
                        10 December 2019 02: 22
                        Have pity on yourself, dear!
                      4. +1
                        10 December 2019 14: 08
                        Unwind up a comment.
                      5. +6
                        10 December 2019 14: 01
                        And let's dissect you a little, citizen. And then something has become a lot in the comments. I at one time spent too long in the analytical department, I can not help but cling to the numbers, I hardly forget them.
                        And random moments, even those forgotten, seem to pop up on their own if necessary.

                        So:

                        1. I’m no longer standing, I began the officer's service back in 1972


                        This means that in 1972 you were 22-25 years old. That is, you were born in 1947-1950. Now, here we go.

                        https://topwar.ru/157910-idejnyj-tupik-rossijskogo-flota-net-rossijskogo-obschestva.html#comment-id-9375165

                        and see there:

                        dear, I made my first dive already in 1959 with Italian equipment.


                        Great, for example. What is it like? At 10-12 years old, even before Gagarin’s flight with Italian scuba gear, to the USSR, right?
                        Further here:

                        https://topwar.ru/160531-bez-poterpevshego-putina-otvetchik-po-delu-ob-oskorblenii-vlasti-otkazalsja-prijti-v-sud-b.html#comment-id-9553871

                        and there:

                        And during the service and after he never sat on his ass, he became a candidate of sciences (+50), when he realized that the state did not want to pay for inventions - he became a rationalizer and introduced them like pies (+100), he became Honored (+50), weakness, associate professor.


                        This is when you did it all, huh? Plus 50 rubles to the salary as a significant factor, this is the 80s. In the 80s, it takes time to make a career as a candidate of sciences, inventor-rationalizer and innovator-docent. There are only 365 (366) days in a year, and 24 hours in a day. I don’t argue that such a fantastic universality in a person is possible, because he himself is the same, but this in time does not fight in any way with the 43 calendar years of service in the Navy.

                        In order to have time to explosively increase your salary by 50 rubles by obtaining a Ph.D. dissertation, you had to leave the Navy in the mid-80s, at least in 1986. Then you would have had five years for all this. From a retiree who had just taken off his uniform to an associate professor, candidate of sciences who gave one invention after another, getting an extra hundred square meters a month. And for this you had to count a year for three EVERY YEAR OF SERVICE FROM THE MOMENT OF RECEIVING THE FIRST OFFICER'S TITLE. What did you do there? Did you overload the reactor cores with your hands? laughing

                        And yes, how did you quit before retiring from the USSR Armed Forces? The age limit has not been reached, it's not the Russian Federation, where you can simply take and quit at the end of the contract.

                        We look at the resolution of the USSR Council of Ministers of March 18, 1985 N 240 ON THE APPROVAL OF THE PROVISION ON THE CARRYING OUT OF THE MILITARY SERVICE BY THE OFFICIAL COMPOSITION OF THE ARMED FORCES OF THE USSR
                        http://www.libussr.ru/doc_ussr/usr_12606.htm


                        6. In accordance with the Law of the USSR "On General Military Duty", officers of the Armed Forces of the USSR are in active military service until the following age limits:
                        junior lieutenants, lieutenants, senior lieutenants and captains - 40 years
                        majors and lieutenant colonels - 45 years
                        Colonels - 50th Anniversary
                        major and lieutenant generals - 55 years
                        Colonel General - 60 years.


                        And yet, there is no other way to remove the shoulder straps, only if you lose your leg in battle. But this is clearly not about you.

                        Maybe you have not even mastered cap-3, and as a lieutenant-commander you left by age? But the question of "100% a year in three without interruptions" remains, LeonidL. I do not have a comrade who earned himself a pension in just 12 years of service, but in general has never served outside the "hot spots", never, he has never seen civilian service and never served outside the North Caucasus Military District. As a result, he could retire at 37 if he wanted to. A unique figure, I must say.
                        But you, the Soviet sailor, what were the hot spots in a continuous stream?

                        Well and yes, how could a person who did not even reach cap-3 write any military-scientific work? But you wrote secret military books from your words that will not be allowed to be read by anyone, see here.

                        https://topwar.ru/162604-stroim-flot-posledstvija-neudobnoj-geografii.html#comment-id-9700351

                        I had enough publications in my time in serious military publications, separate books were published. Alas, with age, the desire to publish has subsided, and there are other reasons.


                        Or did you still outgrow the lieutenant commander? But how did you quit then?
                        And what other reasons are "there"? Is the time retarder broken or something? laughing

                        At the same time, you also claim that you are a hereditary nobleman. Well, wonderfully simple.

                        And we also remember how you are carried face to face on the table by those in whose biography there are no inconsistencies. For instance:

                        https://topwar.ru/156502-30-let-so-dnja-gibeli-apl-k-278-komsomolec.html#comment-id-9265192

                        Those interested - to watch the whole thread to the end, everything is obvious.

                        And what is the conclusion from this, LeonidL? And the conclusion is this - you are scribbling such comments on each sane (albeit faulty) article about the state of the Navy, and there are ten for each article:

                        Well, it's just ridiculous to read the linguistic exercises of a person who does not have a naval education, who has not served in the Fleets. But the goal of all the latest articles "for the Fleet" is very, very dubious.


                        while the impostor themselves are so stupid that they get confused in their own lies. What shamelessness! Are you fulfilling someone’s order? Or is it medical?

                        Rather, an order, because you go around any stupidity not supported by facts. And where there is criticism of the actions of our corporate thugs or naval leaders bent by them to the ground, you are right there, imitating public opinion, so to speak.

                        As a person experienced in life, I will give you advice - if you started to lie, then always remember your lies, and always lie to everyone the same thing. And never, NEVER play with numbers, as you did in the previous comment. And it will be like now.

                        Well, besiege already with your skip in the comments to each of my articles, please, you start to bother me, and in the end you see what happens laughing ? But I only spent half an hour on your person, and in between.
                        laughing laughing
                      6. 0
                        10 December 2019 14: 23
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        But I only spent half an hour on your person, and in between.

                        hope rested? bully
                      7. +1
                        10 December 2019 14: 48
                        In the meantime, LeonidLu took time, not tired, in general, even laughing
                      8. -6
                        11 December 2019 02: 46
                        Mr. Timokhin, you are ridiculously naive with your "analysis", and you cannot even imagine how far from the truth. However, you are right about diving - it was in my childhood that I’ll even tell where - on the beach of the Reviera sanatorium in Sochi, my father got the Italian equipment. "but this time does not beat in any way with 43 calendar years of service in the Navy." - And then little lied about where I wrote about the 43 years of the Navy? Service it can be different, you will not understand this because you have never had any relation to service. The analytical department of Horns and Hooves is different. And everything that you deserve - you envy, it is clear, deserved honestly. This is the whole other price of your "analysis". However, frolic until your next opus on the Fleet. Everything else is just not interesting to me. You can pick up napalm in the kitchen, run away from bears, trade in unclear how purchased and unsold ammunition. Play and entertain the audience.
                      9. The comment was deleted.
                      10. The comment was deleted.
                      11. +2
                        12 December 2019 11: 31
                        You do not understand this because you have never had a relationship with the service.


                        You didn’t have it. What the inconsistencies listed above prove. You did not serve not the Navy, you work out the number here.
                        YARD
                      12. -6
                        13 December 2019 01: 08
                        I process, process and will process. Adieu.
                      13. +1
                        13 December 2019 12: 20
                        Well, I have no doubt about that laughing
        2. +2
          5 December 2019 15: 26
          Quote: LeonidL
          Sergey, this is your personal opinion, how much it corresponds to reality is difficult to judge, to put it mildly

          do you know so much about my qualifications? bully
          Quote: LeonidL
          You will go to a professional doctor or a fortuneteller psychic

          1) the classic of demagoguery and substitution - there is a discussion of general issues, not for example, than one particular product is better than another! If the fleet orders corvettes of projects 11661, 20380, 20385 and 20386, as well as patrol ships 22160 of close displacement, there is no need to be a pro to understand the strange situation! request
          2) I remind you that it’s more visible from the side, and a narrow specialist is like a flux ... laughing
          1. -2
            6 December 2019 00: 02
            Does a narrow specialist flux look like? And what is not a specialist like in general from the word at all, just an amateur? Cancerous tumor! can destroy, but not create.
            1. +1
              6 December 2019 11: 09
              Quote: LeonidL
              Cancerous tumor! can destroy, but not create.

              Are you about yourself or something deeply personal? hi
              1. -2
                7 December 2019 04: 10
                Kind! I do not discuss your health, although I can doubt it. I answered your statement and asked a counter question, do you consider amateur and dunno to be able to make serious decisions? In this regard, with an affirmative answer, I recommend that professional doctors not go and use charlatans.
                1. +1
                  7 December 2019 15: 07
                  Quote: LeonidL
                  answered your statement

                  Do you know the classics so badly? bully It's not me - Kozma Prutkov hi
                  Quote: LeonidL
                  Do you think amateurs and dunno are capable of making serious decisions?
                  I believe that when the "pros" do stupid things that you cowardly pass over silence - only the voice of the public, ie amateurs, is able to call them to order - see the experience of the revival of the fleet after the RYAV ... hi
                  Quote: LeonidL
                  I recommend not to go to professional doctors and use charlatans.

                  I will say this - your recommendations are void for me ... request
                  Then begins a frank flood - bye! hi
  28. +2
    3 December 2019 01: 55
    A surprisingly robust article.
    It is a pity that the high ranks do not need a systematic approach; they are more than satisfied with the "zoo" with dubious combat value. It's easier to budget with projects, layouts and "dead souls" in your pockets than spend on building a fleet.
  29. +1
    3 December 2019 07: 36
    We have a lot of different things going on a lot where! Clear and not very, very muddy !!!
    We just can't know EVERYTHING!
    It remains to be hoped that common sense and understanding of the situation here in the world will make our leadership do HOW TO! Rationally and consistently.
    We can’t act, nor can we change anything NOW ... however, it was like that before, it was \ is ALWAYS!
    We will participate, from the side, see what happens! What other options are there?
  30. 0
    3 December 2019 08: 56
    Type 056.
    About 50 ships in 5 years.
    1. 0
      3 December 2019 14: 22
      We would have mastered the twenty if we tried.
  31. +4
    3 December 2019 09: 35
    The variability of the composition of the ships is our eternal disease, since the time of Tsar Pea. And with the "enviable" persistence of the ascetic, we continue to step on the old rake. The author rightly highlighted another key problem of our Fleet. Hot article
  32. 0
    3 December 2019 10: 41
    I agree with you in many ways. The only thing you should not overestimate the CAD capabilities of the 70s. And how do you like the BOD 1155x as a similar ship? Now it is possible to put a lighter gas engine, fewer gas turbine engines, leave the same 2 helicopters, etc. .. One of the few truly successful ships in the Russian fleet.
    1. +2
      3 December 2019 11: 20
      Successful when someone provides air defense and protection against NK.

      In general, we have problems with successful solutions during the Soviet period. After the "Sverdlov" the optimal and truly successful ships - re-read on the fingers. This is the price of trying to "go your own way."

      From this point of view, the 20380-20385 line looked much more sensible, but in the end everything went into fornication and scattered money.

      22350 wanted to kill, but in the fleet there were people who defended this project. I don’t know everyone, but I have to pay tribute to the former commander-in-chief Korolev, he made his contribution, although later he chewed it.

      22350M can be a salvation. And it seems like nobody drowns him.
      So what are we waiting for. It is unclear just what we will have with BMZ now. And with mine support.
      1. 0
        3 December 2019 11: 46
        After the "Sverdlov" the optimal and truly successful ships - re-read on the fingers.


        I think that 1164 could become such a project. But instead of building these cruisers in a really large series, we limited ourselves to four units, which they also managed to distribute to different fleets. But they spent huge sums of money on Project 1144, which, in my opinion, had no significant advantages over Atlantis, turned out to be too powerful, complex and expensive, which also had a negative impact on the serial production.
        1. +2
          3 December 2019 20: 22
          Quote: Ivanchester
          project 1144, which, in my opinion, has no significant advantages over Atlanta
          1144 has a full-fledged PLO, a quarter more missiles GK, missiles unified with nuclear submarines. And air defense systems without restrictions. This, of course, does not compensate for the double difference in displacement, but still ...
        2. 0
          4 December 2019 03: 52
          Quote: Ivanchester
          I think that 1164 could become such a project. But instead of building these cruisers a really large series, we limited ourselves to four units, which they also managed to distribute to different fleets

          1164 were planned in a series of 10 ships, based on 3 fleets: 4 on the Northern Fleet, 4 on the Pacific Fleet and 2 on the Black Sea Fleet, and therefore they arrived immediately at all these three fleets - for timely development. But only the 3rd managed to build and transfer the fleet, the 4th almost ready remained in Ukraine - in Nikolaev.
          Project 1164 was designed exactly as an alternative to the nuclear 1144, when after the construction of the first of them, the price turned out to be the same as that of the aircraft carrier "Krechet", and the cost and complexity of operation simply went off scale, a specific and extremely expensive infrastructure was required and there were restrictions on entry to foreign ports - as a ship with a nuclear power plant. Therefore, we decided to limit ourselves to a series of 4 units for joint service with nuclear-powered aircraft carriers of the Ulyanovsk type planned for construction, and instead of the other planned 1144, we urgently developed Project 1164, which turned out to be extremely successful. With almost equal striking power, it had more than half the displacement, an order of magnitude lower price and life cycle cost, did not require specific infrastructure and could be built quite quickly ... But only 3 of them were built. It is a pity that at one time they did not buy the almost finished 4th cruiser of this series from Ukraine for debts - they did not want to pay "twice", because even during the Soviet Union it was paid by the Ministry of Defense almost in full ... but if then they had not stinted would be one more powerful ship of the 1st rank today.
      2. +2
        3 December 2019 14: 19
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        After the "Sverdlov" the optimal and truly successful ships - re-read on the fingers.

        C'mon. Enough of successful projects. The singing frigates alone are worth it. Project 61 is a masterpiece of its time. And a series of 20 hulls + export is quite worthy for our Navy
        I consider Project 1134B ultra-successful.
        Project 1124, with all its problems, is also a cool ship. Given the amount in the series.
        1135 almost ... if not for the strange arrangement of weapons.
        The boats of the 205th project are an ideal missile boat for all times (given that its times as a class have already passed in the 80s, then for those 20 years while the class "missile boat" was relevant the 205th can be considered an absolute ideal, as in terms of performance characteristics , and by the number in the series on planet Earth).
        1. +5
          3 December 2019 15: 56
          My list is shorter than your 68bis, 1124, 1155.1, 1164.
      3. +1
        4 December 2019 00: 55
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        In general, we have problems with the Soviet period with successful solutions.
        ... Well, why, there was also a "Peri", in the form of pr. 1135 (as a cheap escort for the construction of a large series), and quite a successful "magnificent seven" from pr. 1134-B. And almost (but did not have time to appear in metal, due to the collapse of the USSR) optimally calculated (at that time) and in fact universal BOD / EM pr. 11560.
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        and truly successful ships - re-read on the fingers.
        Yes, and ICAPL pr. 671 RTMK or pr. 971, it would be difficult for me to call not successful projects.
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        22350 wanted to kill
        God forbid !
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        but in the fleet there were people who defended this project. I don’t know everyone, but I have to pay tribute to the former commander in chief Korolev, he contributed.
        This makes me happy. I would like to build more (instead of patrol icebreakers) and build faster. As the main working type, for completing the KPUG.
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        22350M can be a salvation. And it seems like nobody drowns him.
        the enemies are calm, realizing that it is still in the distant future (there are no ready-made GAKs and power plants for the BOD / EM), then most likely they will activate and propose a new, more "modern" or "perfect" project ... and so on. ... :))
    2. +1
      4 December 2019 10: 15
      also lacked flaws. dove of peace + luminous superstructures
  33. +4
    3 December 2019 11: 08
    Ships are still not designed by machines - Computer Aided Design means "computer design."

    The Navy engineer who created the software was 36-year-old African-American woman, Ray Jean Montague


    Complex programs are not written alone. She did not write the program used (in different sources called CASDAC or CASDOS), she worked on the maximum. If anyone is interested: https://www.gao.gov/assets/120/113337.pdf
  34. 0
    3 December 2019 11: 52
    A very sensible article with a minimum of "all-popular" theses.
    I do not understand the essence of the problems with diesel power plants. Well, Kolomna loves railway topics, so take the modular version of the DGU from there, power conjugation electronics, GED from Varshavyanka and on. From the pluses, the line of shafts from the bow MO is leaving, the modules are standardized and are quickly replaced. That is, you can keep the substitution in the bases.
  35. +2
    3 December 2019 13: 32
    The article is wonderful, read with great interest. The only question is why the author does not mention the Soviet 68-bis series cruisers, which were built on approximately the same principles and became the basis of the Soviet Navy after the war and allowed to develop further. there was an excellent series of articles on this topic at https://topwar.ru/101357-kreysera-proekta-68-bis-stanovoy-hrebet-poslevoennogo-flota-chast-1.html. Posted by Andrey from Chelyabinsk.
    1. +3
      3 December 2019 13: 45
      In order not to overload the article. And yes, an example from the same series.
  36. 0
    3 December 2019 14: 51
    Very interesting article. Especially about the concept of the future for the Navy. Russia has problems with this; hence, nichrome is not clear what to do. Admirals want a hundred aircraft carriers and so that for every fleet. And the budget clearly says that it is necessary to build small ships, since there’s not enough for everything.
  37. 0
    3 December 2019 14: 55
    Oliver Hazard Perry was designed by people using computers and appropriate software, which of course in those years was a big step forward compared to how ships were designed before this frigate. It should be noted that such design is not at all a panacea for "cutting the budget", since It is not machines that are "sawing", but people, and in the States and other developed countries of the West, sawing occurs mainly at the stages of issuing an order for development and manufacture. As soon as the order is issued, there is a strict control by the Customer over the spending of the allocated funds and the project manager is responsible for the use of money. Even if the project ends unsuccessfully, the project manager must still account for the money spent. This time.
    In terms of the combination of cheap and expensive weapons and military equipment, too, the State did not come up with anything particularly new. In particular, such an approach was investigated theoretically justified and, to some extent, introduced by the USSR in the development of the radar systems of air defense of the country and air defense of the ground forces. Now, however, there is an obsession with radars with AFAR, and it is forgotten that such radars are an order of magnitude or even two more expensive than radars with traditional antennas and are also destroyed easily.
  38. 0
    3 December 2019 18: 22
    I think in the episode about the unsinkability of the frigate, the means of destruction are to blame. The mass of warhead harpoon, as can be seen from the teachings, is not enough for confident drowning. But it will fail for sure. What would you immediately need one-shot something like P-800 or P-1000)))
    1. +2
      3 December 2019 20: 57
      The fact is that on ships that are drowned during exercises, all combustible materials are removed, all liquids are drained, in fact, we are talking about stripping to metal.

      Therefore, the effect of missiles is not at all the same as on a "live" ship.
    2. 0
      4 December 2019 10: 18
      In the case of Stark, he was completely calm, unlike the South Atlantic
  39. 0
    3 December 2019 20: 41
    Maybe not the topic! I love our boats, they are pretty
  40. +1
    4 December 2019 00: 36
    In fact, the main reason for our zoo in the Navy is a chronic lack of money (resources).
    From this all troubles come.
    The same Oliver. We look at the chronicle of commissioning: the first three years are 1, then 5 (80), and the next year already 8 (81). Then another 9 (82). A year later, another 11 (83). Then another 8 (84). And the last massive 85 year is still built.
    Sorry, but our shipyards only dreamed of such orders. To build at least 5 ships a year of the same type is a fairy tale for shipbuilders.

    I am sure that if the shipyards were given an order for such a quantity, then we would have had modern shipyards and the construction time was not 10 years.

    And then we have how. There is a seemingly good project (without relatively reality). But damn it is not completely money for him. But you need a lot of it. That's how they scrap the money for the ship - they will order it. And the fact that this is scraped together once every two or three years (at best) is a problem for shipbuilders, because it is more profitable for them to fulfill civil orders - they are at least more stable.

    By the way, only in civil shipbuilding did our shipyards survive in the 90s.
    1. +1
      5 December 2019 20: 51
      In fact, the main reason for our zoo in the Navy is a chronic lack of money (resources).
      From this all troubles come.
      The same Oliver. We look at the chronicle of commissioning: the first three years are 1, then 5 (80), and the next year already 8 (81). Then another 9 (82). A year later, another 11 (83). Then another 8 (84). And the last massive 85 year is still built.
      Sorry, but our shipyards only dreamed of such orders.


      Shipyards have nothing to do with it.

      Let's look at what is being built and built after the 2000s, for example among BMZ ships of the 2nd rank:

      20380 - 6 built, 4 under construction
      20385 - 1 built, 1 completed
      21361 - 8 built 4 under construction
      22800 - 3 built, 11 under construction
      22160 - 2 built, 4 under construction
      20386 - 1 "under construction" (if you can call it that)

      Total: 20 built, 25 under construction. Since 2001 But the fleet is not.

      The question is - could all this be replaced by one type? The answer is yes, you can. Here is the answer about money.
      1. +1
        5 December 2019 21: 59
        But only with comparable amounts, the period is three times shorter. And this is just the problem of financing. If there is rhythmic funding, then the construction time would be different. And the prices would not jump either.
        1. 0
          5 December 2019 22: 58
          Well, I agree. So it was, but if there weren’t a race of projects, then from 2009-2010 this problem would sharply decrease in severity - money went for shipbuilding just then.

          Therefore, on the one hand, you are right, on the other hand, with a rational approach to spending money, something could be solved here.
  41. -1
    4 December 2019 03: 56
    Thanks! Nice smart article with interesting analytics. I read it with pleasure, bordering on "information hunger" in Soviet times, when the grandfather of your publication, "Foreign Military Review" could only be read in the reading rooms of libraries without taking out! From my incompetent point of view, an interesting "circular" tendency is visible. Having in the 70s in the face of the USSR a really tough REAL enemy, and being hourly on the brink of war, the United States very clearly and functionally allocated the budget and turned it into military-industrial complex products. They were forced to do this. Nobody frightened each other with empty yapping. The Perry series is a worthy fruit of this time. When the Union was gone, the US and NATO ... became soft. But the military-industrial complex machine, which has gained momentum, is not so easy to stop: industrial companies that got a taste for large series demanded orders and their own piece of the "Military Budget" corporate pie. They began to look for opponents wherever they had to, sometimes engaging in "single voyage". And for this, the universal naval units represented by destroyers were the best suited. The fruit was "Arleigh Burke" with a series of 68 pennants. But, I dare say, it was not the same fighter as "Perry". He seemed to be blown away by sweets. He got it off a sweet budget. The thirty-year resource begins to come to an end and is replaced by WHAT ...? "Zumvolt" ?! How is this possible? To name THIS after the father of the "low navy" program ?! The United States was struck by our disease called corruption and budget sawing. Now we are beginning to realize that we do not have a fleet and this invigorates us, encourages us to move. Making your own "Perries" ... And they ... by the 30th year, when the disposal of "Burks" begins, they will be in our place. And so in a circle ... Or am I wrong? Hardly...
    1. 0
      4 December 2019 12: 35
      Let's just say that there is something in it. Although I would argue about Berkov with you, they were invented just then, as the murderer of the Soviet MPA.
      1. 0
        4 December 2019 20: 59
        Please explain what you mean by the term "Soviet MRA"?
        1. +1
          4 December 2019 22: 01
          Marine missile aircraft
          1. 0
            5 December 2019 02: 41
            Well, that is, in fact, according to the TU-22M3. Today the situation is different. The Tu-22M3M will no longer come up to RIM's shot, but will be fired off by the Dagger. And the support submarine will already finish off "Arla", if there is something to finish off.
            1. +3
              5 December 2019 13: 49
              This is all under a very big question. The dagger is not in the series and not in service, how this missile can really hit mobile targets is a matter of questions. We do not have a command center for such a range, the Tu-22M3 itself is small and they are old, their engines are in short supply, etc.
              Plus, they are in the Air Force, and not the fact that they will survive until the moment when the pilots throw them at the attack of naval targets.
              Plus, the problem of starting the Dagger - for the Tu-22Mz when opening the bomb bay at supersonic, it breaks and wrinkles the equipment and mechanisms inside, and the Dagger needs a cut-off from the carrier at high speed to ensure range.
              And with an external suspension, Tu does not go to supersonic.
              In short, be careful with a superweapon. Not so simple.
              1. 0
                9 December 2019 22: 50
                Look more closely: I meant Tu-22M3M !!! Does he also "break"? Do you seriously think that there are exactly as many "Daggers" and their delivery vehicles as the media give out? ...? And without them there is something to scandalize. In general, to summarize, I do not see potential theaters of naval battles near our shores. If the Arctic Ocean was free of ice and the Burkes could go out into the operational space there (but their ships are not designed for high-latitude cruises), I would say yes. But, what is actually? The Greenland-Spitsbergen-North Cape line, the Baltic and Black Sea (internal !!!) waters and the Belt of the Kuril ridge. We are locked in our waters, but at the same time, we completely control them in everything we can. And it is right. No captain of the Arleigh Burke in these waters would dare to press the Start button without SUPER reasons, and that would definitely be suicide ...
                1. 0
                  10 December 2019 11: 34
                  Does he also "break"? Do you seriously think that there are exactly as many "Daggers" and their delivery vehicles as the media give out? ...?


                  The aerodynamics of the Tu-22M3 and M3M airframes are the same, so it should break down .. I think I wrote everything exhaustively about the "Dagger".
              2. 0
                10 December 2019 19: 18
                If sclerosis does not change me, the only carrier of the "Dagger" is the MiG-31.
                1. 0
                  10 December 2019 20: 23
                  So far, yes, but plans to use other media have been and are.
  42. The comment was deleted.
  43. 0
    4 December 2019 13: 59
    The many years of multiplicity of NK projects continuously reduces the possible serialization of construction and significantly increases the cost of the surface fleet. But to ensure really large series of ships of the same type, it is necessary, firstly, not to change the technical specifications for each new ship, and secondly, to realize that designing for a large series will be somewhat more expensive and will require competition between projects - and HONEST choice. So far, it seems to me that all this is just a dream ... :(
  44. 0
    4 December 2019 17: 50
    Interesting article. Optimum ships with a budget limit. Each country implements this principle in different ways.
  45. +2
    5 December 2019 02: 05
    Perry is a massive, but a bad ship and the Russian Federation does not need to build such pelvis for his fleet ... the US built them more to demonstrate the flag, and for the Russian Federation to build underfregs is fraught with the loss of the fleet’s combat effectiveness, since the Russian fleet is already getting not enough new military station wagons
    1. 0
      5 December 2019 20: 53
      Well, in general, it was not so bad in the end. We do not need such ships, but not because they are just plain bad, but because we have different tasks.
      But construction approaches should be adopted.
  46. +1
    6 December 2019 07: 23
    There is a reasonable saving, but there is a saving for the sake of saving. Perry is the last example. Exposing him as a role model is her minimum controversial idea. The key factor in creating an economical fleet can be considered not cost per se, but cost / efficiency. And here Perry does not shine, for as without decreasing the price, the number divided by zero will always be infinity.
    1. 0
      7 December 2019 18: 43
      Generally speaking, Perry is the most warring ship after Falkland. The maximum number of combat episodes and combat damage.

      The material for evaluating the project is quite sufficient.
  47. 0
    10 December 2019 18: 14
    Everything is just about weapons. But is it not better to think about raising the economy, although a 1,5 increase in GDP is to begin with. In the USSR there were many ships, but when people became concerned about the standard of living, they began to destroy everything and everyone, and the ships remained rotten. And to admit that at the current level of the economy and the gdp it is impossible to keep the number of weapons at the superpower level. Sooner or later, everything will return to normal, or the level of defense at the level of u. Korea or another collapse?
    1. 0
      10 December 2019 20: 24
      Well, somehow we keep the level of weapons? Moreover, updated faster than the United States.
      I do not argue that the economy should be pulled, but this is just another matter.
  48. 0
    15 December 2019 13: 11
    Despite the fact that the comments on this article have already exceeded the volume of publication, I consider it necessary to add quotes from the article by B. G. Marov in the journal “Shipbuilding Abroad” No. 2, 1983 “Features of the design and construction of frigates Oliver H. Perry” FFG 7 US Navy. "
    “At the initial stages of designing, the cost of one FFG 7 frigate was estimated at $ 45 million. The cost ... of a program of 51 FFG 7 frigates in 1973 prices was estimated ... about $ 4 billion ... the purchase cost of the FFG 7 frigate for 1977-1978. increased to $ 104 million per ship. ... when ordering frigates in 1980 fin. the cost of one ship reached $ 200 million, in 1981 - $ 236 million ... and in 1984 - 317 million dollars ... according to [Jane's Fighting Ships 1980-81 ... 82-83] the cost of the frigate FFG-56 ordered in 1982 f. at current prices they were supposed to reach $ 498,9 million. Since 1985, it is planned to modernize 26 frigates ... the displacement will increase by 50 tons, ... the cost of upgrading one ship will reach $ 13 million. "

    "[I] Wouldn't you be chasing cheap things, pop"
    A.S. Pushkin
  49. 0
    29 December 2019 20: 22
    "The plane from which the missiles were launched was discovered by the frigate at 20.55"
    )))
    In 20645 from the destroyer "Coontz" to "Stark" passed on the target going on it. At 20:46 the same thing was broadcast to Stark from AWACS. And only at 20:58, "Stark" was able to take the target for escort in its radar. The distance was 70 miles. Roughly speaking, on the radio horizon. This is normal. So, in fairness.
    "But the incident characterizes the combat survivability of the Perry very well. About five years earlier, the Exocet missile hit the British destroyer Sheffield for the same reason (blatant carelessness of the personnel). As you know, this ship was lost." Stark "It was restored and returned to service."
    You will speak now. The conclusions of the American commission were unambiguous - if it was not in the Persian Gulf, but in the open ocean, "Stark" would have sunk in the first hour. "Sheffield", just the same was in the South Atlantic, in not the most favorable weather, but was lost only two days later.

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