Military Review

Shipbuilding: A Delayed Perspective Catastrophe

133
Shipbuilding: A Delayed Perspective Catastrophe

On 28 of June of this year, the Ministry of Industry and Trade of Russia published a draft strategy for the development of the shipbuilding industry until 2035 of the year (Order No. 28-p of October 2019 of October 2553). This document is very difficult to read, because it is replete with general phrases and an almost complete lack of specificity.


And this can be considered normal, since our ship engine manufacturing is still, from the beginning of the century, if not in a state of clinical death, then coma.

Someone may not agree, but check out the document, there you will find in sufficient quantities formulations such as “critical”, “causing concern” and the like.

Personally, upon close examination, it caused a lot of negative that the federal target program “National Technological Base” (2007 – 2011) had a whole section with the burning title “Creation and organization of production in the Russian Federation in the 2011 – 2015 years of diesel engines and their next-generation components. "

8 billion rubles was spent on the creation and organization of production from the budget. Everyone knows the result.

Desk games such as the creation of a certain “Coordinating Council for the Development of Piston Engine Engineering” under the Ministry of Industry and Trade did not bring expected results. A special investment contract mechanism (SPIC) was introduced, but last year the Cabinet suspended work through the SPIC “until the tool was improved.”

However, as part of the work on the SPIC, nevertheless, something was done towards solving the problem. Prior to the suspension of work under the SPIC, an 33 contract worth 434 billion rubles was concluded. Including money for development were allocated to leading companies in the field of diesel engineering. And “Kolomensky Zavod”, “Star” and “Ural Diesel Engine Plant” eventually began work on the creation of new lines of diesel engines.

Three lines of medium-speed and two lines of high-speed engines of a new generation appeared in the work at once. However, diesels did not get to where they are most needed, that is, in the USC (United Shipbuilding Company) and further into the fleet. More precisely, they were simply not produced. Not enough money.

And the development of 1 – 20 MW engines generally had to be postponed.

In the walls of the plant in Kolomna, testing of D-500 diesel engines continues. For fleet modification 16SD500 is intended, which was demonstrated a year ago in the form of a model at the annual army show in Alabino.

And finally, it happened: after only 11 years after the start of the OCD, the D500K engine went for testing.

But the problem of urgently needed mid-turnarounds has not yet been resolved. And here it is not even a matter of picking new ships. We have available on all fleets a lot of ships that require replacement of engines. This is the Soviet legacy, ships and vessels with a service life of 25 years and older.

Alas, the engine is not eternal, and the lack of a new engine with the full development of the resource definitely puts the ship on the joke.

Soviet marine diesels are in the past, including in Zaporozhye and Nikolaev, so if you change it, then something modern and really domestic.

And we have a "new Russian" D500 from the very beginning was very conditionally Russian. At least the crankshaft, cylinder block, pistons and much more were manufactured by German and Austrian firms.

Today, the times have gone harsh, and it is wonderful that the plant was able to improve the situation and modernize production to produce the necessary components. So, import substitution in the field of engines for ships is very, very serious.

The provision obliges. We either replace German, Austrian, Dutch, Swiss with our own, or we go to bow to China. And there, if there is (not always), then sometimes such a quality that it is better and not necessary.

Well, of course, the problem requires decent funding. Marine diesel engineering should be funded as one of the most important, and then the destroyers and frigates will not be joking in anticipation of at least some engines.

In general, too many things have been destroyed during the times of Russian reality, including the “shameful Soviet heritage” represented by Soyuzdizelmash, which existed under the USSR Ministry of Heavy and Transport Engineering. Accordingly, production and service chains were destroyed at all stages of the diesel engine life cycle.

It will take many more years to eliminate the consequences of a democratic rampage, solely because breaking is not to build.

Meanwhile, the fleet will still choke on a shortage of diesel engines ...

And to say, for example, how long will it take Kolomna diesel engineers in order to solve all the problems of starting to produce ship engines in proper volumes, while it is very, very difficult.

It is not easy to say how, besides the licensed engine from MAN, the fleet can be helped by another old and proven manufacturer of marine diesel engines, PJSC RUMO from Nizhny Novgorod. There, too, due to a lack of funding, they can’t arrange the production of engines of their own design.

In general, sometimes we have strange things to do. The fleet needs engines. Big and small. Domestic manufacturers are in debt, and Chinese cars are being purchased. And then the ships (new) are shipped to completely replace the jammed Chinese miracle diesel.

And the debts of the same "RUMO" for the 2018 year alone amounted to more than 250 million rubles ...

It’s good that they did not even forget how to repair and capitalize a diesel engine. At least we can. For the time being, we don’t know how it will continue.

Yes, dozens of ships and vessels still use Soviet-designed diesel engines in the Navy. These units are quite reliable and have repair and modernization potential.

But alas, diesel is such a thing ... not infinite. It’s impossible to repair it forever, because sooner or later they will say “everything”. And then the problems will begin, especially with those ships, which so far simply have nothing to replace.

These are the BDK of the 1171 and 775 project, the rescuers of the 537 project submarines, the Dubna type tankers, the 11661 project rocket ships, and much more that go, but as long as the engine has a resource.

And do not go anywhere. Therefore, the command and the corresponding services of the Navy extend the life of old ships.

In general, our fleet cannot be called new and modern, the average service life of ships has crossed the 25-year frontier. This is not a very scary indicator, but he says that one ship served 2 of the year, and the second - 40. And just with those who are for 30, all sorts of things usually happen. They begin to smoke, for example. And barely swim. About how to walk, somehow even the conversation does not go.

Therefore, something needs to be done, and it was necessary to start the day before yesterday. When problems with ship engines were just drawn. In Russia there are 10 enterprises that can produce diesel engines. Few? Lot? They are. But our new ships are equipped with Chinese, far from the best diesels.

Moreover, counting on the fact that “Europe will help us” has long been impossible. Everything. Licenses, joint development, modernization - all this was covered by sanctions and left in the past.

MAN, SEMT Pielstik, Wärtsilä - this is not about us now. Forgot.

There are only two options left: either urgently reanimate your own, or buy what they sell. They sell a little and for expensive. Here you have the whole layout.

It’s worth considering: we have TEN manufacturers of marine engines, and we are buying Chinese engines. Well, what can you call it, if not a shame?

But the fact that our engines are developing very slowly is only part of the problem. Because in addition to OCD, the development of production, all sorts of improvements, modernization, plus service and scheduled repairs are immediately drawn.

All this would be good if our fleet ordered diesel in real quantities, like Russian Railways for diesel locomotives.

But we get only small-scale production “on order” at the output. That is, something that is completely disadvantageous to the plant.

So, the problem should be solved through public procurement with normal financing. Since we got on the rails of a market economy, it is in the interest of the state to pay for the fleet to receive engines for ships and ships in a timely manner.

The Russian manufacturer of marine diesel engines must be saved. And we are losing him in the truest sense of the word.

Yes, now that we can safely forget about Western diesel brands, because they remained behind the sanction fence, and ours never appeared, the situation is so-so. It is clear that the market requires to follow the path of least cost, that is, to buy diesel engines in Asia.

Or vice versa, if the enterprise is not able to produce SO MUCH engines (a hint at St. Petersburg's Zvezda, which is really sewn up) plant, because production capacities are simply not calculated.

Is the "star" to blame for not being in time, or those who dumped all orders for small missile ships and boats at one factory?

A coordination center, similar to that created under the Ministry of Industry and Trade, had to be created 15 years ago. But to create not under the ministry, but under the same USC, because who, if not shipbuilders, is interested in engines? And who breaks the deadlines for the State Defense Order?

It is necessary to revive the design school, revive the production of marine engines, and revive the system of maintenance and repair. Yesterday I had more.

But the state should play the first fiddle in this, having funded not properly creating superstructures that are incomprehensible and slurred, namely, manufacturing enterprises should be the first to feel state support.

On their own in small-scale production, the plants will not stretch. Only a state order, and not for the creation of a diesel engine for an X-ray project 22800, but for the creation, construction and maintenance of a line of engines for the needs of the fleet.

In the meantime, the rapid independent creation of competitive marine diesel engines at Russian enterprises is impossible. First of all, because it is not necessary / disadvantageous to the factories themselves, which, for the sake of maintaining their pants, would be better off producing anything, but not an engine under a one-time contract, albeit within the framework of the state defense order.

So, we will develop design bureaus and manufacturers in Asia?

I would not want to. Especially considering the fact that we still have our ten diesel manufacturers.

There is a prospect. It must be realized in the government. And then in the "tomorrow" there will be much less problems.
Author:
Photos used:
morvesti.ru
133 comments
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  1. DAC scratch
    DAC scratch 3 December 2019 06: 40
    +14
    like 10 factories, and not one can do the job, one involuntarily recalls the USSR with its shipbuilding program and is depressed
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 3 December 2019 07: 05
      +40
      Yes elementary! Ship diesel is a very complex and specific thing, only Germans and Finns normally do it, but that says something. And why should the plant finance the most complicated OCD at its own expense today? For the sake of one and a half diesels that the fleet will order? The same Kolomna is much easier to drive the shaft for Russian Railways
      1. Eug
        Eug 3 December 2019 08: 38
        +21
        So, like a diesel engine, both for submarines and for diesel locomotives were almost the same. I didn’t come across it personally, but my parents worked at the diesel plant of the Malyshev plant, info from them and their colleagues. True, this was a very long time ago and cannot be specified, but, knowing the attention to unification and standardization in the Union, I can quite believe it. And the question is not only in diesel engines, but also in gearboxes for the joint operation of heterogeneous engines. As for me, the problems are not organizational-design-technological, but in the distribution of potential pie.
        1. abc_alex
          abc_alex 3 December 2019 10: 08
          +19
          Quote: Eug
          So, like a diesel engine, both for submarines and for diesel locomotives were almost the same.

          I guess, yes. But for a ship it’s not enough to put a motor. They still need a sophisticated gearbox, the manufacture of which is also a PROBLEM.
          And that's not what the article says. The point is that no one in Russia needs a naval diesel engine. Generally. Absolutely. The government is busy creating papers. The admirals are busy whining in anticipation of the lifting of the sanctions, when they will finally be able to buy "Germans" again. Ship design bureaus generally do not understand what they are doing, but for some reason they regularly sculpt projects specifically for imported motors. Diesel operators are busy with survival. The fleet, too, did not rest against them with his insignificant order and arrogance.
          Kolomna D-500 is not a naval order. This energy and Russian Railways ordered R&D. And they funded the same. And it is good if the diesel is good for ships. And if not?

          Our fleet needs to take an example from aviation. Flyers created UEC. What prevents admirals from lobbying for a solid association?
          1. Narak-zempo
            Narak-zempo 3 December 2019 10: 48
            +40
            Quote: abc_alex
            The fact is that no one in Russia needs a naval diesel engine

            Look wider. Few people in Russia (of those who really make the decision) need Russia.
            1. NordUral
              NordUral 3 December 2019 11: 11
              +6
              To the point, Narak-zempo!
          2. The comment was deleted.
        2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 3 December 2019 10: 19
          +9
          That's precisely because they go almost the same, the fleet obscures them.
      2. Nemchinov Vl
        Nemchinov Vl 3 December 2019 16: 27
        +1
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        For the sake of one and a half diesels that the fleet will order?
        Well, if the customer's brain (represented by the VFM) straightens up, and he realizes that the ineffective 20380 for PLO, is not just expensive (but also singular) !! And taking into account the speed of production of the power plant "Zvezda", the new 22800, you can safely not order / mortgage (contract), because there is no point in the next 7-10 years. And are they needed in more quantities than the fleet has already contracted ?! Especially in light of the fact that - the simplest, fastest and most economically viable way - project 11661-K (E), at the power plant from 20380 (DDA-12000), with UKSK and TA 533 mm (for UGST), with the same GAK "Zarya", but without the expensive "Reduta" (for the air defense of a single corvette, the "Osa-MA" is enough, well, the maxims up to "Pantsir-M". And in this configuration, it can objectively replace the aging MPK "Albatross" , and perform the functions of RTOs ("Karakurt" or "Buyan-M"), saving a lot of money.Then, it is quite possible that the Kolomna, which has updated its machine park, will receive a really large defense order for its power plant for DDA-12000 corvettes, in quantity some 24-30 units, i.e. years of some kind for the same 8-12 !!!, then she will already have plenty to choose from, and not just, -
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        The same Kolomna is much easier to drive the shaft for Russian Railways
        ... There will be a "diamonds interest", so to speak ...
      3. msm
        msm 4 December 2019 12: 22
        -1
        only Germans with Finns normally do

        It is necessary to add to the list: Swedes, French, Italians, English, Americans, Japanese, Koreans.
    2. Siberia 75
      Siberia 75 3 December 2019 12: 24
      -6
      I read the title of the article, guessed the author, understood "we are all going to die," and closed the article. good
      1. msm
        msm 4 December 2019 12: 28
        0
        No, the question is how and on what to approach the USA at close range at a crisis time, so that the flight time is minimal.
      2. Nick
        Nick 5 December 2019 04: 57
        0
        Quote: Siberia 75
        I read the title of the article, guessed the author, understood "we are all going to die," and closed the article. good

        Exactly!
  2. Obi-Wan Kenobi
    Obi-Wan Kenobi 3 December 2019 06: 47
    +18
    from the beginning of the century, our ship engine industry is still, if not in a state of clinical death, then coma.
    Someone may not agree, but check out the document, there you will find in sufficient quantities formulations such as “critical”, “causing concern” and the like.
    Personally, upon close examination, it caused a lot of negative that the federal target program “National Technological Base” (2007 – 2011) had a whole section with the burning title “Creation and organization of production in the Russian Federation in the 2011 – 2015 years of diesel engines and their next-generation components. "
    8 billion rubles was spent on the creation and organization of production from the budget. Everyone knows the result.

    And for all this, we need to thank our guarantor and our government, which the guarantor himself appointed.
    And as you know - the guarantor is never ashamed of his government, and in general the guarantor is satisfied with his work.
    1. Boris55
      Boris55 3 December 2019 07: 35
      -9
      Quote: Obi Wan Kenobi
      And for all this, we need to thank our guarantor and our government, which the guarantor himself appointed.

      Constitution of the Russian Federation:

      Article 111 n.1. Chairman of the Government Russian Federation assigned The President of the Russian Federation with the consent of the State Duma.

      Section 112, paragraph 2. Chairman of the Government Russian Federation offers To the President of the Russian Federation candidatures for the posts of Deputy Prime Ministers of the Government of the Russian Federation and federal ministers.

      Article 113 Chairman of the Government Of the Russian Federation in accordance with the Constitution of the Russian Federation, federal laws and decrees of the President of the Russian Federation defines the main directions activities of the Government of the Russian Federation and organizes his work.

      ps
      I do not like the current constitution and I am for rewriting itbut any law is better than lawlessness, which will inevitably lead to civil war, the disruption and dismemberment of Russia.
      1. Pereira
        Pereira 3 December 2019 07: 43
        0
        Which of the persons listed in the said articles of the constitution shares your opinion? I guess a few. About deputies and is not worth remembering.
        So the constitution can only be rewritten as a result of a revolution. Decide what is more important for you.
        Civil war do not be afraid. Who in the event of a palace coup will take up arms and go to save DAM with Chubais? Can you recall a couple of names among your friends?
        1. Boris55
          Boris55 3 December 2019 07: 55
          +8
          Quote: Pereira
          Civil war do not be afraid.

          The West has well learned the lessons of Crimea, and therefore any crisis of power in the country will lead to its dismemberment. The perestroika elite has not disappeared, it sleeps and sees when their time comes and they will become small but presidents (look at the governor who openly says that he is not going to eliminate the consequences of the flood and that the president is not a decree to him). Their constant attempts to arrange a maidan are stopped by the security forces (colonel with billions, etc.) ... This conversation is off topic. This is where I end.
      2. Aleksandr21
        Aleksandr21 3 December 2019 10: 20
        +4
        Quote: Boris55
        Constitution of the Russian Federation:

        Section 111, paragraph 1. Chairman of the Government ....


        Boris, you well emphasized what is written in the constitution .... but we then live in the real world, and we understand whose interests DAM represents in the government and who is at the helm. Yes, even take the well-known party, it also pushes those laws that need tops. Therefore, the tale of the good king and greedy boyars will not work here. And in general, if we already remembered the constitution, then according to the Russian constitution, the president cannot take more than two consecutive terms, but in our country it does not work.
      3. Neznaika
        Neznaika 3 December 2019 11: 02
        +6
        And why are these red accents? Sometimes, information is also written on the fence. This does not mean that it is objective.
        Someone in Russia will believe that the prime minister will be appointed without first of all the approval of the president? Someone in Russia will believe that some uncle, and not the president himself, is looking for a suitable candidate?
        Someone in Russia does not know that the State Duma has become an appendage of the AP and the president himself? What will she take under the visor and approve any of his decisions?
        No need to engage in demagogy.
        For the prime minister of Russia it is necessary to thank the president. And no one else. For everything else is a decoration. Screen.
        And the result ... Here it is:
        "It is worth considering: we have TEN marine engine manufacturing plants, and we buy Chinese engines. Well, what can you call this, if not a shame?"
        But listen to the premiere - all the buzz, a beautiful marquise. Especially in the field of import substitution. Here we are ahead of the rest.
        1. IC
          IC 17 December 2019 06: 23
          0
          China supplied engines made on the basis of German MWM Deutz, which have long been removed from
          production.
      4. LomKuvaldych
        LomKuvaldych 4 December 2019 01: 45
        +3
        So is it all because of Medvedev? And who has repeatedly proposed his candidacy? And who can fire any minister and the entire government? Is it Trump?
    2. abc_alex
      abc_alex 3 December 2019 10: 20
      -1
      Quote: Obi Wan Kenobi
      And for all this, we need to thank our guarantor and our government, which the guarantor himself appointed.

      Well, yes, it’s Putin personally who approves every warship project. More to say, he designs them!
    3. NordUral
      NordUral 3 December 2019 11: 13
      +2
      Why is he ashamed? Work on the decomposition of Russia and industry as a whole, he and the government from organized crime groups are doing five plus.
    4. Sckepsis
      Sckepsis 6 December 2019 16: 22
      -1
      No, you need to blame. You, me, the inhabitants of this site, our fathers and grandfathers. The easiest way to poke at the most prominent person, hang everything on him and calm down. And he is only displaying us all. And for some reason no one wonders what would happen to be in another chair. Do you think it would be better?
  3. The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 3 December 2019 08: 19
    +2
    It’s strange. I perfectly remember the bravura reports of a year and a half ago on import substitution. From all this, as I understand it, only with helicopter motors more or less did something happen?
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 3 December 2019 09: 44
      +4
      Because we started long - that's why it happened. It turned out smoothly and gradually. Plus MS - also wanted money, regardless of the political situation and actively found options on how to deliver the scarce to the last, bypassing all sanctions. As a result, step-by-step deployment of production was implemented.

      And then, again, engines for the Mi-26 for example - only Ukraine does. And cunning schemes are used for export, to the same Jordan (the latest Mi-26T2), it was precisely MS that supplied and supervises it.

      Ansats are building with PW207K - until the sanctions are blocked by the way, although the training is military. After 4 years, according to the plan, import will be replaced - literally in the summer they said and immediately the performers said - which 4 years - 6 minimum:
      Speaking about the timing of the creation of such an engine, he noted that four years is a very ambitious task. "I would say six years later. Of course, it all depends on funding and desire. But the engine as a child is not born immediately. We need time and a set of tests, some of them cannot be completed faster. Something, of course, is possible if you make a lot of prototypes, although it is expensive, "- said the CEO CIAM.
      https://ria.ru/20190719/1556678335.html

      Ka-226T - flies on Turbomekh. And on Allison.
  4. Professor
    Professor 3 December 2019 08: 39
    +9
    Soviet marine diesels are in the past, including in Zaporozhye and Nikolaev, so if you change it, then something modern and really domestic.

    In Nikolaev ship diesel engines did not do, but only turbines.
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 3 December 2019 09: 50
      +2
      Well, here is more likely a promise - they say jump to the turbine will not work either wink . Domestic turbines are still in the form of 1 type of product that is not suitable for everyone and 1 smaller type of product that will be in the bright future.
      1. Nemchinov Vl
        Nemchinov Vl 3 December 2019 21: 16
        0
        Yeah. Five years have passed !!! No one thought (OR DIDN'T KNOW?!) That one enterprise (Saturn) could not, alone, quickly establish a wide range of marine gas turbine engines ?! And another enterprise for the production of gas turbine engines and gearboxes is not being created ?!
        1. Vadim237
          Vadim237 4 December 2019 20: 25
          +1
          Such complex units as gas and offshore turbines are not quickly created and tested, at least 7 years.
          1. Nemchinov Vl
            Nemchinov Vl 5 December 2019 13: 38
            0
            Quote: Vadim237
            Such complex units as gas and offshore turbines are not quickly created and tested, at least 7 years.
            possibly. Ah-ahh, so you therefore propose, and further not to create a second plant capable of making them (and gearboxes for them) and testing the entire power plant created from them (like "Zorya-Mashproekt", on the territory of the Russian Federation)? Should we continue to rely only on Saturn, given the ever-increasing needs of the fleet? Yes, it does not matter that because of this, the shipbuilding programs will continue to slip. So far five years have passed in vain. As I understand you, due to the fact that it is not easy, now it is possible not to start creating a second such enterprise, well, at least another 7 years, after all - IT'S DIFFICULT! Yes, I do not argue, I do not say that it is easy. I just don't want it to be realized twelve years later, and only then they began to create it !!
            Well then. Under Stalin, the priority areas of industry, with proper control, developed in 2-3-4 years (!), And did not stretch by twelve ...
            1. Vadim237
              Vadim237 5 December 2019 14: 38
              0
              Turbines not only Saturn does.
              1. Nemchinov Vl
                Nemchinov Vl 5 December 2019 15: 06
                0
                Quote: Vadim237
                Turbines not only Saturn does.
                sea, and who else ?!
          2. 3danimal
            3danimal 25 December 2019 17: 52
            +1
            And in 7 years they will only (at best) reach the modern level of the same Motor Sich (I’m not talking about GE). Which will go even further ahead.
  5. rocket757
    rocket757 3 December 2019 08: 42
    +11
    It is necessary to revive the design school, revive the production of marine engines, and revive the system of maintenance and repair. Yesterday I had more.

    the first fiddle in this should be played by the state, having funded not properly creating add-ons obscure and slurred, namely, manufacturing companies should be the first to feel state support.

    And they said that the MARKET will do everything, align it, create ... and all that jazz!
    Not fused! interesting, but why?
    1. lucul
      lucul 3 December 2019 08: 58
      +11
      And they said that the MARKET will do everything, align it, create ... and all that jazz!
      Not fused! interesting, but why?

      Ah, thank you. Under this dogma, it was so convenient to break up the Union ..... You are unfair to them right ...
      Dunk like naughty kittens with their noses in their own shit))))
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 3 December 2019 09: 02
        +5
        Quote: lucul
        Under this dogma, it was so convenient to break up the Union ..... You are unfair to them right ...
        Dunk like naughty kittens with their noses in their own shit))))

        They are just in ... sour cream! But where is the country, where are we all? this is an interesting question and is hardly so pleasantly "smelling"!
    2. AlexVas44
      AlexVas44 3 December 2019 09: 46
      +5
      Quote: rocket757
      And they said that the MARKET will do everything, align it, create ... and all that jazz!
      Not fused! interesting, but why?

      Most likely because on the MARKET, in particular in industry, "high-level management" rules. In the documents they publish, and therefore in their heads, what the author writes: "... the document is very difficult to read, because it is replete with general phrases and an almost complete lack of specifics."
      There are certainly designers, engineers with bright heads, I think that this is not interesting to anyone.
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 3 December 2019 10: 13
        +1
        Quote: AlexVas44
        Most likely because on the MARKET, in particular in industry, "high-level management" rules.

        That is exactly the "rule" and in "golden parachutes", accumulations, "earned by honest labor", put off!
    3. NordUral
      NordUral 3 December 2019 11: 15
      +6
      And they said that the MARKET will do everything, align it, create ... and all that[Quote] [/ quote]
      Didn’t it even out? On the site of factories and institutes scorched earth.
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 3 December 2019 11: 22
        +2
        Quote: NordUral
        On the site of factories and institutes scorched earth.

        And so and so it is, that's right. The Soviet Union was bad for them, it was ... and then it was only being built !!! A LOT OF.
        There was an era of creation, now it’s completely different ... because they jump on the past without regard to anything and no one!
      2. Vadim237
        Vadim237 3 December 2019 17: 33
        -9
        After the collapse of the USSR, all institutes remained to this day, they continue to work.
        1. NordUral
          NordUral 3 December 2019 18: 52
          +2
          Do you have mirages, 237th? In St. Petersburg, there was almost nothing left of them, small islands behind the stained-glass windows of business centers or the conflagration of the 90s and 2000s.
          1. Vadim237
            Vadim237 4 December 2019 01: 12
            -6
            No mirages, most of the technical and other institutions remained, now there are 780 of them all over Russia - I do not remember exactly 1500 defense industry enterprises.
            1. NordUral
              NordUral 4 December 2019 10: 43
              +1
              Blessed is he who believes, Vadim. What remains is shards. I don’t have to go far. Near my house, a grandiose construction site (so far, mainly only fences) on the site of the former GIPKh (it exists at a different address, has not been completely destroyed, but this is not the same institution that was). and there will be something grand in its place with access to the Neva for the thieves of the nouveau riche.
  6. Earthshaker
    Earthshaker 3 December 2019 08: 43
    +3
    I do not know what should happen for the existing government to invest in the real sector of the economy. Or I know, but I am silent.
    1. NordUral
      NordUral 3 December 2019 11: 17
      +4
      And do not be silent! These never! will do nothing. Their other tasks.
    2. Vadim237
      Vadim237 3 December 2019 17: 34
      -3
      High-tech production pays off from 7 to 10 years or more. As they say - wait.
  7. Dude
    Dude 3 December 2019 09: 36
    +7
    It’s worth considering: we have TEN manufacturers of marine engines, and we are buying Chinese engines. Well, what can you call it, if not a shame?
    This can and should be called what it is - sabotage at the highest level and the continued deliberate destruction of the country's industry. hi
    1. victor50
      victor50 8 December 2019 23: 00
      -1
      Quote: Dude
      sabotage at the highest level and ongoing deliberate destruction of the country's industry

      I can’t decide for myself in any way: is this sabotage or is it stupidity? Much similar, not only about diesel engines. In 2008, Yushchenko promised not to let "Moscow" into Sevastopol. It was not clear what it was already then necessary to start thinking about propulsion for ships? And I have no intelligence, the FSB and the GRU .. request
  8. Maks1995
    Maks1995 3 December 2019 09: 41
    0
    "Only a state order, and not for the creation of a diesel engine for the MRK project 22800, but for the creation, construction and maintenance of a line of engines for the needs of the fleet."

    Dream, dream ...
  9. Pilat2009
    Pilat2009 3 December 2019 09: 53
    +1
    Quote: rocket757
    It is necessary to revive the design school, revive the production of marine engines, and revive the system of maintenance and repair. Yesterday I had more.

    the first fiddle in this should be played by the state, having funded not properly creating add-ons obscure and slurred, namely, manufacturing companies should be the first to feel state support.

    And they said that the MARKET will do everything, align it, create ... and all that jazz!
    Not fused! interesting, but why?

    Because prices are set by the state and not the market
    1. rocket757
      rocket757 3 December 2019 10: 16
      0
      Quote: Pilat2009
      Because prices are set by the state and not the market

      Are you serious?
      Our country WHOSE? Who are its most important founders and beneficiaries?
  10. donavi49
    donavi49 3 December 2019 09: 57
    +7
    The main article is where there are many times more specifics on the BMPD if that:
    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3854428.html

    There, Sinara's megaprojects were also illuminated, which everyone died in fact. And the Soviet diesels, which are now being produced as having no analogues, have applied:
    In the meantime, operational requirements for high-speed turnovers are growing, including in terms of resource. According to the naval source of the publication, the resource, for example, diesel engines of type M50, before the first bulkhead 2500 hours. At analogues from Perkins - Up 10 000 hours, Caterpillar and Cummins have even more. "It happens, antifreeze pours into cylinders. And the expense is twice as much as that of foreign counterparts", - said a mechanic who maintains such engines.
    1. Astronaut
      Astronaut 4 December 2019 10: 18
      0
      You gave a good link to the article, but besides the article, did you read the comments?
    2. IC
      IC 17 December 2019 06: 38
      0
      Perkins is a Caterpillar low-power engine division.
      Powerful medium speed engines, this is a division of MAK. The rest is CAT.
      Almost all new tugs of the Navy are equipped with CAT engines, the same tugs are civilian. All new projects of ships of marine border guards, to sanctions, MTU engines with KAMEWA engines
      1. IC
        IC 17 December 2019 06: 40
        0
        Typo. KAMEWA propulsors
  11. gridasov
    gridasov 3 December 2019 11: 17
    -3
    New Principles of operation of new propulsion engines drastically reducing energy consumption while increasing the speed of the entire ship will be unknown to many for a long time to come. But they already exist and are working on a small installation. The increase in the dimension of the mover to ensure the movement of large vessels is carried out according to other laws, since they work with the elasticity of water. Moreover, electric machines on coil-free induction coils and rotating magnetic fluxes in the stator open up new possibilities, etc.
    1. gridasov
      gridasov 4 December 2019 09: 54
      0
      Americans are imprisoning Russian citizens for trying to buy the so-called modern gas turbines. For ten years now, we have been offering Russia to start developing fundamentally new types of turbines with obvious advantages and understandable even for people absolutely limited by their minds. And they play minuscans. But who generally pays attention to fools.
  12. stalkerwalker
    stalkerwalker 3 December 2019 11: 39
    +2
    In order to create modern marine diesel engines with power from 1000 kW and above, you need a school, and a base, and, as always, money, money, and again money.
    Time is lost. In Soviet times, a licensed Burmeister & Vine was produced in Bryansk. Only this "Vanka" was very far from its original.
    To understand the extent of the problems raised by the author, just look at the engines produced by domestic manufacturers for domestic cars. What they put on Vesta and X-Ray is an anachronism.
    With shipboard ECs, it’s so completely - a complete blockage. Here the author is right. In the medium term, a breakthrough is not expected. It is possible and necessary to purchase imports. The question is price and country of delivery.
    Kolomna plant is "not rubber". And technologically it produces exactly as much as the power allows.
    In addition, without going into details, historically Kolomna has supplied diesel engines to plants producing railway locomotives. And the shipyards on which the ships and small-tonnage ships were built.
    The conclusion is simple.
    In the near future it will be necessary to purchase diesel from manufacturers from China (and where to go?). And, perhaps, in the same place to buy equipment and a license. By analogy with GAZ, which buys licensed Cummings for its city buses in China.
    1. msm
      msm 4 December 2019 12: 40
      +2
      as always, money, money, and again money

      There is a lot of money in RUSNANO. "A lot" - quote.
  13. nikolaj1703
    nikolaj1703 3 December 2019 12: 23
    0
    There are no normal, competent engineers. And that’s it !!!
    1. Rzzz
      Rzzz 3 December 2019 12: 51
      +9
      There are engineers for now. Only they work as office plankton. Because no one needs them in their specialty, or even needs them, but they are ready to pay only below the survival bar.
      1. msm
        msm 4 December 2019 12: 42
        +1
        Yes, and their pension is soon, very soon.
    2. prior
      prior 3 December 2019 16: 32
      +4
      I am a process engineer.
      I admit honestly. Being an engineer today is a shame.
      1. gridasov
        gridasov 4 December 2019 10: 17
        +2
        An engineer is never ashamed to be. An engineer is a state of intelligence to see and understand the mechanics of natural processes and to embody them in his own interests without destroying this nature. Nothing can cost the people as much as neglecting their talented people. They not only do not develop their people, but they often develop those who are competitors in the struggle for vitality.
  14. Radikal
    Radikal 3 December 2019 12: 42
    +5
    Quote: nikolaj1703
    There are no normal, competent engineers.
    And where do they come from? winked Education is in the same position as engine building, and much more is achieved that they were not killed in the 90s .... sad
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 3 December 2019 17: 37
      -2
      In aviation, rocket, as well as in locomotive and cargo engine building, everything is fine. Ship D500 will begin to be mass-produced in the 2021st.
  15. Rzzz
    Rzzz 3 December 2019 12: 44
    +4
    You can also forget about RUMO. There, thanks to effective management, only the walls remained. While. And then they want to demolish, it is stopped by the fact that the demand for real estate in this area of ​​NN is not very high.
    There is no factory. Although the prospects were excellent ten years ago, there was a ready-made new line of engines of the most running dimension 1000-1500 kW. The old 36/45 line was also not bad, and sold well, although the old one was, of course. The factory had a full cycle - both casting and crankshafts were ground.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 3 December 2019 17: 45
      0
      10 years ago there was a crisis in 2009. I doubt that in those conditions, someone purchased the necessary amount of products for the cost-effective operation of the enterprise. Shipbuilding is all, in Russia really flooded only in 2012th.
      1. Rzzz
        Rzzz 4 December 2019 09: 11
        +2
        Well, it's a shame that it was not preserved. Many enterprises were able to survive, and this most important plant was killed. Now, to bow to the Finns, Dutch-Japanese, Americans and Chinese to go for motors.

        Moreover, the Chinese are generally handsome. They didn’t bother with developments in general nirazu. MAN is discontinuing the old model, the Chinese are buying the whole plant in the bud and transporting it to themselves. They rivet the WeiChai tablet and successfully sell it half the world, including us.
        1. Vadim237
          Vadim237 4 December 2019 16: 49
          -2
          And the production of the fuel system, they are buying the same?
          1. Rzzz
            Rzzz 4 December 2019 20: 53
            0
            And how is the fuel system different from everything else?
            1. Vadim237
              Vadim237 5 December 2019 14: 42
              0
              More difficult to manufacture, as it has significantly smaller tolerances, plunger pairs up to 0,0001 mm, and also control units with programs.
              1. Rzzz
                Rzzz 5 December 2019 18: 50
                0
                For example, German SKL diesel engines have not been produced for a quarter of a century, and fuel equipment is still sold. New. Back in Soviet times, several shipyards opened fuel equipment workshops, and made it worse than German. And now they do, though not everyone survived.
                There are no nanotechnologies. A few correct machines - and sharpen the plungers to your health.
                The only thing that is technologically difficult to do right now is ceramic plungers for Common Rail.
  16. dgonni
    dgonni 3 December 2019 13: 42
    +3
    The star is not sewn up because of production facilities! The wound is sewn up due to the lack of specialists in terms of hard workers of machine operators and lower-level engineers!
    1. Rzzz
      Rzzz 5 December 2019 19: 23
      0
      A star is generally a strange enterprise. Its products - M-504, M-507 - creepy dinosaurs from the middle of the last century. Crazy fuel consumption, disgusting reliability, extremely low resource, maintainability none - most of the work can not be done on board, you need to remove the motor and take it to the workshop. No sane shipowner will order this. They are steeped in by the military, pouring crazy money into the toilet now and during subsequent repairs, and getting ships that will be in the repair bases for most of their lives.
      A characteristic moment - ships with these engines are being driven from fleet to fleet along rivers - in tow !!!. Because such a drive will gobble up a third of the regulatory overhaul resource !!!! Yes, and engine failure when moving along the channel - will lead to ugly consequences.

      For me, it's more correct to demolish the whole "star". And build a new plant focused on the production of modern diesel engines. There is no need to develop anything special, everything that is possible in diesel engines has already been developed.
      This will be a more rational investment. But nobody needs this from us.
      The "star" itself in the form in which it is and with its products is not needed by ANYONE. 112-cylinder diesels are not made anywhere in the world - this is an indicator.
    2. Alien From
      Alien From 6 December 2019 00: 45
      0
      Moreover, now even in a baaAlschoy city, finding a decent locksmith mechanic is a problem out of problems !!!! Everyone wants to click on the buttons of a CNC machine, no more ......
  17. steelmaker
    steelmaker 3 December 2019 13: 46
    +7
    In Soviet times, plans were made for a five-year plan, and now right away until 2035. They walk widely! This is what it means when the "Stooltkins" are put in charge with their own optimization. So we were optimized before!
  18. Paul Siebert
    Paul Siebert 3 December 2019 13: 57
    +6
    Yes, the current government knows how and loves to cut money.
    But it's not just about the money.
    Political will is needed to change the situation in industry.
    Did the young Country of the Soviets have extra money? After the Civil War, the country lay in ruins. There was no industry at all, the population was starving, street children inundated large cities.
    However, the fleet was rebuilt. No matter what. Because there was a goal. Belief in her achievement. There was a will. The will of the people.
    Does Oreshkin have such a will? An effective manager, originally from the Higher School of Economics?
    There is, but another. The will to steal, saw, enrich.
    There is not even a means of controlling the spending of funds. In the Accounts Chamber - Kudrin, another "gift of democracy".
    State of the fleet and engine building - tracing paper from the situation in the country ...
    1. Astronaut
      Astronaut 4 December 2019 10: 25
      0
      You forgot to mention the most important thing: Stalin was at the helm. And the "will to steal" from "effective managers" out of despair, but not in front of the Maidan, but before the Russian revolution, and the first thing that the revolution will do is to destroy the American embassy, ​​so that no figures like Navalny could get to power
  19. alex aircraft
    alex aircraft 3 December 2019 14: 25
    +2
    Stop whining !!! see how many new churches, temples, mosques and even synagogues have been built! With so many we are not afraid of adversity! And you are all about the worldly-some kind of diesel there. Vanity .......
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 3 December 2019 17: 47
      -1
      And what do you put the emphasis on: temples, synagogues and mosques - that in addition to them, in Russia for 10 years they have not created anything new and have not built it?
      1. Harry.km
        Harry.km 4 December 2019 09: 51
        +2
        Quote: Vadim237
        And what are you focusing on: temples, synagogues and mosques

        Do you have something against? It has long been proven that the earth is flat, astronomy is a false science, it was even removed from schools. Missiles are beating against the vault of heaven. The ship does not need an engine because metal cannot float in water and fly through the air. And one must worry about the soul not before leaving for another world, but constantly. Therefore, the braces should be spiritual, and not metal in armor and with guns ...
        1. Vadim237
          Vadim237 4 December 2019 16: 57
          -4
          Let them build temples - how places for tourism will be attractive, and most importantly they are built mainly with donations. But it is not necessary to criticize everyone around a big mind - mainly because of a start, they themselves cannot and they don’t do anything for them, so they whine.
    2. msm
      msm 4 December 2019 12: 45
      0
      Stop whining !!! see how many new churches, temples, mosques and even synagogues have been built! With so many we are not afraid of adversity! And you are all about the worldly-some kind of diesel there. Vanity .......

      Thank you, clearly stated! We will not "die", we are in paradise!
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 4 December 2019 16: 58
        -1
        You set off, from whiners there has never been any sense and no.
  20. The comment was deleted.
  21. Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 3 December 2019 18: 17
    +3
    In general, sometimes we have strange things to do. The fleet needs engines. Big and small. Domestic manufacturers are in debt, and Chinese cars are being purchased. And then the ships (new) are shipped to completely replace the jammed Chinese miracle diesel.

    What a heart-rending picture. That's just to reality, it has little to do.
    "Poor unfortunate Kolomna" in fact has a firm order from Russian Railways. And she spat on naval diesel engines - because there will always be fewer ships than diesel locomotives. At the head 22380, the Kolomna power plant was brought to mind for five years. And all this time there were accidents up to fires. A natural monopolist does not care about customer requirements. Take what they give - there will be no other. And they give only diesel diesel.
    The Ural diesel engine plant ... there is no doubt that the fleet, the government and personally the GDP are to blame for the fact that the plant managed to turn in the diesel fleet without corrosion resistance.
    There are only three enterprises in Russia that are engaged in the production of marine power plants: Kolomna Diesel, Ural Diesel, which makes it so that after two months the covers on these units are completely corroded by sea water ”, and another plant - Zvezda, presented at the salon his engine, which was actually manufactured in Austria.

    Moreover, the representative of UDMZ did not even deny the fact of inadequate product quality:
    Naturally, the quality is lame in all diesel engines. The Commander-in-Chief is right, no one can deny that quality must be raised.


    So don't put the cart in front of the horse. It is not because the domestic factories are "suffering" because the fleet is trying to replace the products with imports - these are imported diesel engines that were purchased exactly as a result of the operation of domestic diesel engines by the Customer.
    Is the "star" to blame for not being in time, or those who dumped all orders for small missile ships and boats at one factory?

    That is, the poor plant was forced to sign a deliberately unrealistic contract? Did the factory workers themselves fight off him with all their hands?
    Only when the plant missed all delivery dates, why did the plant workers not refer to this "contract enforcement"?
    It’s worth considering: we have TEN manufacturers of marine engines, and we are buying Chinese engines. Well, what can you call it, if not a shame?

    And how many of them produce exactly ship engines. Or does the author not see the difference between a ship and a ship engine? Well really, what's the difference between "plow the sea between ports with a constant course and course"And"run around the square with variables, and even under shock loads"? wink
    1. stalkerwalker
      stalkerwalker 4 December 2019 00: 59
      +4
      Quote: Alexey RA
      And how many of them are actually ship engines. Or does the author not see the difference between a ship and a ship engine? Well, really, what's the difference between "plowing the sea between ports with a constant course and speed" and "running around the square with variables, and even under shock loads"?

      This is a complex problem that comes from systemic errors.
      The USSR Fleet Admiral Gorshkov once said that the power of the USSR Navy is based on a triad consisting of the Navy, the Merchant Marine Fleet and the Fishing Fleet.
      And if today a huge amount of money is invested in modernizing the Russian Navy, as in a state-level system, the merchant fleet and the fishermen have agony, or a state close to it.
      It all began in the unforgettable perestroika times, when the Shipping Companies and state-owned fishing enterprises became joint-stock companies. This gave no impetus for development. Nimble St. Petersburg "shareholders" in the blink of an eye sawed off the largest shipping company in the USSR.
      Today the remnants of the Murmansk Shipping Company are at the berths of Europe. Only in Spain I saw two ships: in Aviles the "Novaya Zemlya" was arrested for debts, in Motril I was watching the "Zaporozhye" with the naked eye.
      About the remnants of the trailer to the IMF - Northern Shipping Company, we can say that it is not a tenant. For fishermen, the situation is no better.
      But in full swing, under the enthusiastic cries of the townsfolk, "modern" bargeons of the "river-sea" class rivet. They put wunder diesels from Kolomna on them.
      Rounding off, I’ll say that until the state solves the problem of domestic maritime shipbuilding, there will be no modern domestic power plants — neither for the Navy, nor for anyone else, because only mass production will be able to repel R&D and reach a certain modern level.
      And today, the vast expanses of the oceans under the flag of Russia plow troughs and pelvis, as a symptom of domestic impotence, or, I would say, impotence.
      And there’s no reason to blame super-modern LNG carriers serving supplies from Yamal. These are private traders who hire Filipinos. Russian sailors ordered places there ....
    2. abc_alex
      abc_alex 7 December 2019 11: 10
      0
      Quote: Alexey RA
      "Poor unfortunate Kolomna" in fact has a firm order from Russian Railways. And she spat on naval diesel engines - because there will always be fewer ships than diesel locomotives. At the head 22380, the Kolomna power plant was brought to mind for five years. And all this time there were accidents up to fires. A natural monopolist does not care about customer requirements. Take what they give - there will be no other. And they give only diesel diesel.


      And what, the naval officers brought at least a penny to the plant in the 90s-2000s? When did the plant work three days a week for three hours? Maybe he just came with a proposal to create a "marine workshop" at the plant and brought money for it? The plant is still operating at 50 percent capacity.
      No. Admirals can only "dyke". Give me a diesel. Give it now. Give me two! It doesn't work that way. The plant has been producing a new diesel engine for 10 years already. And this is normal for the state in which the plant began its development. 5 years of fine-tuning the ship's control system, that's not enough. Considering that this is an old motor, assembled by a dilapidated enterprise with a gearbox assembled also almost on its knees. If I were the director of the plant, I would send admirals in three letters. Let them walk around the world with their caps, looking for where else to buy a good diesel, so that the staff members do not have time to turn off the tap. This is a joke, of course.
      Kolomna is not at all a monopolist and has never been eager to become a monopolist. Until recently, there was a question of survival, not monopoly. And the situation was not as you described it, but vice versa: at first the fleet deliberately abandoned domestic diesel engines, after which their development was practically stopped. And now, suddenly, it begins to hysteria that there are no modern high-quality motors. And where do they come from, if no one has been engaged in them for 20 years, knowing that admirals buy only foreign ones. Quality is not taken from the air. First you need to invest in the development of the model and the equipment of production a lot of money. And wait 10 years.
      And the fleet, it seems, and this time decided to "sit on the tail" of the railway workers and power engineers, without investing a penny in development, wants to get a new power plant
      Yes, even without jambs. So I had to eat a shovel. And buy motors in Bangladesh. Until he understands that his own marine engine building is not a whim or a burden, but a necessary basis for the naval program.


      And by the way, the question is, what was burning there, on ships, that does not burn on locomotives?
  22. eckons
    eckons 3 December 2019 19: 34
    +1
    Quote: Pereira
    Civil war do not be afraid. Who in the event of a palace coup will take up arms and go to save DAM with Chubais? Can you recall a couple of names among your friends?

    You will go. Or do you, fool, think that in the event of a civil war someone will let you choose who to fight for. They will come, they will rob the house, rape the wife, put the machine gun in their hands, and go, driven by machine guns, to fight for DAM, at least for VanDam. Where do you get such dumb daredevils come from. As if not our country survived so many coups. Did you get a lot of happiness? Or do you hope to sit out?
  23. leon1204id
    leon1204id 3 December 2019 19: 44
    -1
    Well, how can I not talk about import substitution (about capital placement), because I do not understand anything about marine diesel engines. But a word then you can say! Let talented people invent and create. They work not for money, but for an idea. Don't feed them bread, but let them invent something new. The problem is not the money or the materials. The problem is the "organization" of an acceptable funeral process for everything talented and non-standard. No, just think about the meaning of the term - "financing development" !! Ah, the old days. To create TU160, Tupolev and his design bureau were given the green light and he had the right to interfere in the very fabric of production, mining, and distribution of GDP. Ugh-you association involuntarily runs over. hi fool
  24. awdrgy
    awdrgy 3 December 2019 21: 05
    +1
    About his Work as a turner at a factory until 2010 Salaries of superiors our high low work hard People started to run away I remember back in 2007 with men in the smoking room they discussed that there would be no 5-6 years old and there will be no specialists (old people leave and if the youth is poorly trained, I have there was a student who knew how to count only integers, what kind of a rod with a micrometer could he? Of course he couldn’t work) And not only hard workers, but technologists as well left generally all who are not managers (administration) And then? Then they suggested, of course, who will go when they are settled down and not very strained in security by the administrator or even where the Old Men are few and their health is not right. The defense order went, they gave the money, and where were the specialists? You need to cook them and this time Well, they found some decent money for production for small parties for small batches, so to speak, Yes, savvy youth do not go to production (30 years there they paid a penny who believes that now they will pay normally for a long time?)
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 4 December 2019 01: 17
      -5
      As it goes, everyone has their own interests.
      1. awdrgy
        awdrgy 4 December 2019 09: 39
        0
        Then where are the engines of cars from domestic spare parts, computers on a domestic base of toys, clothes, etc. And they are just not massively inadequate (with obviously overpriced), which should be proved. As for the question, there is a question with what quality of knowledge, but I pointed out above
        1. Vadim237
          Vadim237 4 December 2019 17: 37
          -2
          What engines do you need - cargo YaMZ 536, Kamazovsky 910 - on Aurus and the engine did a nine-speed automatic transmission - computers on a domestic base please price tag from 200 300 thousand, also headphones from 60 to 90 thousand cameras from 3000 euro, a kettle of our production I saw 900 rubles True, its quality is in great doubt, all the work clothes in Russia are made, but on this market, like on all the others, there are many competitors whose products have been used by not a single generation - do you think that we will now create a completely domestic smartphone and it will be good for it - damn two, as with all other items, including toys, the market is crowded, the costs of completely manufacturing are huge - hence the price tags I quoted above if I bought clothes from Salamon Reebok Adidas and so on. I will continue to buy things from these brands if my production worked and continues to work on DMG machines I will continue to buy DMG because I will not stop production for the sake of transition new domestic machine tools that have not shown themselves anywhere else, there is no steady trust in domestic consumer goods and it will not appear soon all the more so more and more global offices localize their production in Russia, not a single country in the world has and never will have its own But in the USSR - tell me at least one brand in the clothing of computer shoes or products created in the USSR that has survived to this day and is known as Coca-Cola Nike HP, you can produce whatever you want - but it’s far from completely untwisting and selling and most importantly not everywhere.
          1. awdrgy
            awdrgy 4 December 2019 20: 14
            0
            Engines are needed for ships and massively What should have been proven There is nothing and what is expensive, including due to the lack of specialists Domestic computer 200-300-wow! we have an average salary of 25-30 locksmiths in the region and his wife has even less and the region is not the most killed computer for 50 this is already a luxury The 9-step box is cool only the roller in the VAZ timing kit is Polish and this kit costs much more than the Italian one at retail 3200 and 2500, respectively A "domestic consumer goods" (space weapons, aviation are taken out of the brackets - these are just Soviet brands and their development) is not an indirect confirmation of what I wrote above But seriously, I wrote how we came to life like this By the way, I I didn't know about headphones for 60 sput and a camera for 3000 euros (for me now a state employee is the same as buying a personal yacht, it is impossible, therefore, I was not interested and did not know)
            1. Vadim237
              Vadim237 4 December 2019 21: 23
              -3
              We have come to such a life thanks to the "wisest" policy of the CPSU since the beginning of the 60s, all our computer architectures have been ditched - we will do it like the Americans, cybernetics have been flooded with microelectronics, the domestic auto industry has been filled up in the same 60s, in fact, there was no hi-tech behind forever - and it couldn't be when in the country, even fabrics were in short supply, it was at the end of the 60s that they began to chew with sausage because there was not enough meat, and the plan had to be fulfilled, but in the same 60s the USSR put 120 rogue countries around its neck - we gave them products with high added value, loans, weapons, factories, specialists, materials, they paid us with loyalty and "coconuts" and were still surprised that we were producing "Why do we have a shortage" all breakthrough developments in the USSR were stacked on the shelves, since their introduction into production required resources, new equipment and interfered with the implementation of the plan as a whole - abroad inventors received money for their inventions, found investors, conquered markets inin all spheres, which is why they now have brands with worldwide popularity such as: Apple, IMD, Intl, Microsoft, Barbie, GE, Pepsi and many others in all spheres of society, and we have zero without a stick in this regard for civilian products - we will never compete with these companies on the world market, and on the domestic market the same, at least how much money you put in our specialists, the whole market is overflowing with super-heavy competitors - who managed to eat it, Russia is trying to do everything for which there is a demand and there are few competitors atomic reactors nuclear fuel optical devices special equipment aircraft and rocket engines metallurgy materials all kinds of cars locomotives CNC machines gas turbines, all electronics for the military-industrial complex, as well as all products of the SH.
              1. awdrgy
                awdrgy 4 December 2019 22: 54
                0
                I agree that the economy of the USSR raises some questions It can be assumed that privatization was ultimately a consequence of the party's policy However, it is precisely possible to assume that in this causal link we are already moving into the area of ​​conspiracy. Actually, a lot has been written about this. There is a lot of real information. trying to make the above products for which there is a demand in the foreign market The question is whether it will be able to provide a high income for the majority of citizens, even taking into account the sale of resources that are finite on our ball? (by the way, you can agree on the policy of the government that I would not like to discuss) The fact, however, is a loss specialists in production, although after the removal of the CPSU from power, quite a long time has passed, by the way, enough so that many of these specialists and those who could become them "stretch their legs" (demography until 2008 is in the public domain and even now is not ice) You are a good interlocutor, but let's already close this topic Ochev Idno that each of us will remain unconvinced
              2. S-400
                S-400 5 December 2019 13: 19
                0
                Quote: Vadim237
                We have reached such a life thanks to the "wisest" policy of the CPSU

                No! We have come to such a life, thanks only to ourselves!
                That in the 60s-70s, when our parents sat quietly, enjoying free wretched apartments in Khrushchev, and went to the polls in formation, I vote for "whoever needs it" that we are now doing the same :(
                Understand the simplest truth: if the feedback from those in power to citizens is broken and citizens turn, de facto, into "subjects" or even "slaves", nothing will happen. The country is beginning to resemble a rocket, in which the control system has failed: further flight is not predictable with a final fall into some swamp.
                Therefore and only therefore
                Quote: Vadim237
                we have zero without a stick
                it will only get worse :(
                1. Vadim237
                  Vadim237 5 December 2019 15: 09
                  -1
                  We now have a lot of opportunities for the production of everything - but there will be no demand for everything, so we are engaged in promising and what there is demand for and will be in the future, fortunately in Russia they began to engage in hydroponics and vertical farms that are not inferior to agricultural equipment thanks Rostselmash and Agromash in aviation finally got the MC 21 aircraft and the PD 14 engine, which is in no way inferior to and even surpasses foreign counterparts in fuel efficiency in the automotive industry, finally they have created their own branded car Aurus engine and their nine-speed automatic machine in machine tool building their drives and consoles with a CNC program thanks to Balt Systems, with the help of which private offices modernize old Soviet machines and make them modern in medicine, they began to make modern domestic equipment, including MRI and equipment for the treatment of cancer, thanks to Shvaba, they also make night vision devices, sights including thermal imagers, gas turbines began to make Saturn a ck Oro will present its new turbines "Power Machines" in all other respects there is progress and significant And at the expense of "The country of the missile that lost control" - you made a mistake in time, it was with the country in the 90s with a dumping into a swamp. Now the rocket has brought our spaceship into orbit - despite all the crises, sanctions, and other sticking in the wheels of our economy, corruption, as well as the inaction of the local authorities, the flight continues and will be successful and will be better in the future, in terms of energy it is for sure, but there is energy means everything else will be Rosatom
          2. abc_alex
            abc_alex 7 December 2019 11: 19
            0
            Quote: Vadim237
            tell me at least one brand in the clothing of computer shoes or products created in the USSR that has survived to this day and is well known as the Coca-Cola Nike HP, you can produce everything you want - but to promote and sell, and most importantly, it’s far from complete and not everywhere.

            So that's what the article is about. That market regulation is not compatible with the interests of the fleet. Making motors for him is simply not profitable right now. Therefore, I, for example, believe that the fleet needs its own production cooperation, focused not on market regulation, but on planned consumption. We need production that is capable of even with zero margin, but stably produce a line of diesel engines with different power and dimension in small series. The plant needs a new, specially designed. And no market orientation, the more external. A purely internal naval order.
  25. Roman Mitin
    Roman Mitin 4 December 2019 07: 26
    0
    I live in Nizhny Novgorod and drive past the RUMO (formerly the Engine of the Revolution plant) every other day. Since the summer, activity began in terms of repairing workshops. Apparently the plant is being revived ... But something else is strange. In the summer of this year, they removed the railway line that went to this plant ...
    1. GTYCBJYTH2021
      GTYCBJYTH2021 4 December 2019 10: 00
      +3
      Why the future of the SEC Railway branch ?! The goods will be delivered by cars, the territory-parking for guests and visitors of the entertainment ... Example-the Kvant plant in Krasnoyarsk-produced photographic paper for the people and other for the needs of the Moscow region-they ruined, repaired, and in the center of the city of the shopping center .... ... There are very few parking spaces ...
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 4 December 2019 17: 42
        -2
        Why the heck to restore it - something better than the Kolomna diesel engines D 500, he will never do it. But with a very high probability, it will simply go bankrupt again, in view of the lack of orders for its products.
    2. Andrei Nikolaevich
      Andrei Nikolaevich 5 December 2019 00: 21
      0
      Roman, and you ask, why did you remove the railway line? Maybe for sure, production will be raised? Then, how without railway logistics? ..
  26. The comment was deleted.
  27. GTYCBJYTH2021
    GTYCBJYTH2021 4 December 2019 09: 51
    0
    What kind of ship engines, both Main and auxiliary, can we talk about if there is only a locally made case in the Biryusa refrigerator ..... Motor-compressor-Chinese, relay components are also from China, the relay is already assembled here, PRIVATE entrepreneur ......
  28. ZAV69
    ZAV69 4 December 2019 10: 01
    +2
    I’ll say a banality, but under Stalin someone would have been shot for such a long time. The possibility of such an outcome stimulates the search for a solution to the problem. But right now there is no and it is not necessary, because there is an opportunity for a public account to go to China, and even put it in your pocket from grateful Chinese.
    1. msm
      msm 4 December 2019 12: 55
      +4
      Whoa! They begin to understand why Stalin planted "a lot" and ...
  29. mik193
    mik193 4 December 2019 10: 07
    +2
    Somehow it seems that it is time to introduce articles "sabotage", "sabotage", etc. into the criminal code.
  30. Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 4 December 2019 10: 56
    +2
    There was a Soviet way of implementing large projects. It was super-efficient, allowing you to solve problems of absolutely any scale and complexity, and much more effective than any Western tool. Who wants to, he will easily know how this method worked. Modern Russian managers, in principle, cannot use it, all of their nature, all of their experience, all their guts against using this method.
    The funny thing is that they cannot even reproduce Western methods! Even the simple design method lacks skills, will and desire! Only the ability to steal is mastered. The West also steals with might and main. But he mastered enough ways to build, albeit not as perfect as the Soviet one. And we do not have a single worker!
    As soon as those who from the last old age forces improve our military technologies die, everything will simply end for us. How space ended, how everything else ended. Ahead is a shameful death accompanied by vigorous TV programs about great prosperity and "launching new projects." Ugh...
    1. S-400
      S-400 4 December 2019 11: 27
      +1
      Quote: Mikhail3
      There was a Soviet way of implementing large projects

      -ag, tochnyak, existed, more precisely - there were two ways:
      1) to close everyone in sharaby, previously, especially outstanding (like Korolev), breaking the bones;
      2) to whip up, without regard for anything ("we will not stand for the price"), completely disproportionate forces and means and eventually throw out a monster that no one needs for nothing, such as Energia-Buran (each launch costs cosmic money, and carrier with GP 105t. to LEO neither in p ... nor in the Red Army :()

      As for diesel engines, we have, that with a scoop, that now, the only sane pr-l of these is Kolomna. I personally know that in recent years they have grown well. Not MAN, of course, but the retention is no longer strong. But the guys in Kolomna are imprisoned for the railway, the fleet for them has always been a "side" and the attitude is appropriate. And, taking into account the fact that the sanctions practically closed for us the ability to purchase normal diesel engines abroad, yes, soon our fleet will switch to rowing :(
      1. Mikhail3
        Mikhail3 4 December 2019 13: 08
        +2
        I'm sorry. Does it not surprise you why the West does not use these methods you have perspicuously noticed? That is, he used them, for example, the Belgians tripled the population of the Belgian Congo, without hesitation, cutting their hands and killing those blacks who allowed themselves to sit down at work, or could not cope with the norm. However, the Negroes did not go into space, and the Belgians, too. The Americans tried to pump monstrous amounts into their projects. How does the F 35 fly? And the buzzworms are swimming? And much more?
        No, the Soviet method is space for example. Where so far you can’t really fly on anything, except for Soviet ships. This method was not used in civilian sectors; the party did not want to lose the role of the main provider of goods. If it were used in civilian sectors, now we would have something similar to communism in the understanding of the idler Khrushchev. But the party in the form that we had in recent years, would certainly not have been.
        Think about it. Read. There was a way. He is, just do not thief pathetic to use it ...
        1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Vadim237
        Vadim237 4 December 2019 17: 44
        -1
        That's just Kolomentsy will not abandon the attendants of the Moscow Region for diesel engines - and the main production will be fully loaded.
        1. S-400
          S-400 4 December 2019 17: 52
          0
          They won't refuse, but they won't do a damn thing. Already passed and many times, I personally observed all this. The grandmas will be laid out in the necessary pockets, a second compressor and something remotely resembling a gearbox will be hung "on snot" to the Kolomna diesel locomotive of the D49 type. This something will break at the first exit to the sea, but to hell with it - but they did not refuse money.
          1. Vadim237
            Vadim237 4 December 2019 21: 27
            0
            They don’t hang - the military are waiting for 500oku no old diesel engines with suspended compressors, by the way, adding the compressor also means strengthening the design of the cooling system of the lubrication system and the piston group of the engine, military acceptance will not be missed.
  31. 7,62x54
    7,62x54 4 December 2019 11: 37
    -1
    You are there in the Ministry of Industry and Trade, better tell me, "nail down or stick the plate?"
  32. Andrei Nikolaevich
    Andrei Nikolaevich 5 December 2019 00: 15
    0
    My grandfather, in the village, still has an old tractor diesel generator from a Soviet bulldozer. When something happens in the winter, it is launched to supply energy to the old village council building. Starts with a half a pint. About 40 years old for sure. Well, if you were able to make such a reliable diesel engine, then is it really impossible to make shipboard ?. Do we have mechanical engineers here? ..
  33. Bear040
    Bear040 5 December 2019 02: 17
    +1
    It is high time to nationalize strategic enterprises in the Russian Federation, only then will things get off the ground
    1. S-400
      S-400 5 December 2019 13: 10
      0
      Quote: Bear040
      It is high time to nationalize strategic enterprises in the Russian Federation, only then will things get off the ground

      You will be surprised that they have long been, de facto, nationalized. Only this, you will be surprised again, not only does not help, but on the contrary, everything has sharply worsened.
      The most striking example: a drowned floating dock, at parting with the "Kuzyu" crane. The dock belonged to the SRZ-82 plant, which was privatized in 2010. And everything somehow worked.
      And then the plant was transferred in 2015. STATE COMPANIES "Rosneft" (that is, nationalized). And, just after that, everything happened. Doesn't it suggest any thoughts?
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 5 December 2019 15: 14
        +2
        Suggests - PD 50, like the whole series of these docks, is currently just floating junk, which is already 40 years old - with all the charms in the form of design fatigue and rust.
        1. 3danimal
          3danimal 6 December 2019 20: 05
          -1
          So how to repair Kuznetsov? Ask Norwegians to build to build a new one? Or maybe the South Koreans will help out ... (for the corresponding fee, of course).
  34. The comment was deleted.
  35. maxsvistok
    maxsvistok 5 December 2019 12: 11
    0
    We have such problems everywhere, both in the ground engine, the structure, and in the land, and in the aircraft, and the sawmill plants are sold. For example, in Barnaul there were two plants that built the diesel engines Barnaul Motor and Transmash. transmash at death, and BMZ no longer exists until the building materials are disassembled
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 5 December 2019 15: 16
      0
      Only in shipbuilding - in 2021 will its Kolomna D 500 be corrected when their mass production begins.
      1. 3danimal
        3danimal 6 December 2019 20: 00
        0
        It would be good. In general, I met proposals for the redesign of ships with a diesel power plant on a gas turbine, with which we are doing better.
        It is also interesting whether the option of purchasing marine diesel engines in Korea (not North) was considered.
  36. 3danimal
    3danimal 6 December 2019 19: 52
    0
    About complaints of sanctions and the inability to buy good diesel engines: it is necessary to assume the possible consequences, making serious geopolitical and military decisions. And the impression is that the “leaders” reasoned in the spirit of “so lads, these suckers can endure everything, we don’t strain” (for some of the bureaucracy this talk is very close).
    Russian citizens will pay for all the costs, as usual (no one will ask them), and the "best people of the country" will receive compensation for financial and moral suffering (at our expense).
  37. starshina78
    starshina78 12 December 2019 12: 52
    0
    All this stems from the anti-Russian Government of the Russian Federation. It is ready to work for someone - for China, Germany. Syria, but not to Russia. There is a systematic destruction of entire industries. In Russia, such industries as chemical engineering, manufacturing of equipment for the food industry, machine-tool manufacturing, production of bearings of various types have disappeared, heavy machinery is not working, convulsing, special metallurgy is also not in its best position and there are still a lot of things that don’t or do not work, but languishes due to underfunding and expensive loans. The question is - where is the Government, the Duma and the President looking? Well, everything is clear with the Government, the Duma is also not particularly concerned about the state of industry (at least a large part of the Duma), and what is the President doing nothing?
  38. Basarev
    Basarev 12 December 2019 13: 11
    -3
    The trouble is that they have produced too many unnecessary offices and unnecessary officials. Busy only tossing pieces of paper. The real state of affairs for them to the bulb, their only concern is to extend their seat in the chair. And since the committee was created to solve the problem, it turns out that the problem should be as long-term as possible. As for the diesels themselves, isn’t it better to finally switch to electric motors?
  39. NF68
    NF68 16 December 2019 16: 01
    0
    MAN, SEMT Pielstik, Wärtsilä - this is not about us now. Forgot.


    They also forgot about MTU.
  40. NF68
    NF68 16 December 2019 16: 23
    0
    Quote: Andrey Nikolaevich
    Well, if you were able to make such a reliable diesel engine, then is it really impossible to make shipboard ?. Do we have mechanical engineers here? ..


    A marine diesel engine of high power is not a tractor at all.



    It is enough to pay attention to the sizes of powerful marine engines and to what power they develop:
  41. IC
    IC 17 December 2019 06: 16
    0
    The volume of orders for the Navy cannot ensure the profitability of the development and production of new engines. And the prospects for deliveries for civil shipbuilding, especially for export, are unrealistic.
    The market is completely filled with modern engines of multinational companies and their licensees, which have a global network of services and spare parts.
  42. Pandora1978
    Pandora1978 9 January 2020 22: 41
    0
    Until they stop stealing budget money and wasting it for other purposes, they will not build anything anywhere, including ship diesel engines. Everything is sad and hopeless.
  43. rotkiv04
    rotkiv04 11 January 2020 16: 12
    0
    So the one on the galleys said that the iPhone and his camarilla, called the Cabinet of Ministers, fully copes with the tasks, so the author does not write the truth
  44. octogen
    octogen 24 February 2020 23: 42
    0
    We also have problems in another: the fleet leadership does not understand that the future is in full electric propulsion. And does not invest in it.

    The efficiency of combined-cycle plants in surface power plants has long exceeded 50%. Which fully compensates for losses in the electric motor. The bourgeoisie, while on the ground, is running around the technology of in-line batteries of huge capacity. The combination of combined-cycle turbines, large batteries, large-capacity propulsion motors could well solve all the problems. At least in the form of a partial hybrid where the electric motor helps to rotate the shaft of the main gas turbine engine or diesel engine.

    It's like a situation with AFAR: it hurts, is expensive, it breaks stereotypes, but THIS is inevitable.