Military Review

Trophy Soviet anti-tank guns in the German Armed Forces in World War II

107
Trophy Soviet anti-tank guns in the German Armed Forces in World War II

Trophy anti-tank artillery in the German Armed Forces. In the course of the hostilities against the USSR, German troops captured several thousand artillery pieces suitable for fighting tanks. Most of the trophies were received in 1941-1942, when the Soviet troops fought heavy defensive battles.


45-mm guns of 1932, 1934 and 1937 samples


At the time of the German attack on the Soviet Union, the main anti-tank weapons of the Red Army were the 45-mm guns of the 1932 year, 1934 year and 1937 year. The 1932 gun of the year (19-K) was created on the basis of the 37-mm anti-tank gun of the 1930 gun of the year (1-K), which, in turn, was designed by the German company Rheinmetall-Borsig AG and had much in common with the 3,7 cm anti-tank gun Pak 35 / 36. At the end of 1931, the designers of Kalinin Plant No. 8 in Mytishchi near Moscow installed a new barrel of 37 mm caliber in the casing of the 1930-mm anti-tank gun of the 45 model of the year and strengthened the carriage. The main reason for increasing the caliber of the gun from 37 to 45 mm was the desire to increase the mass of the fragmentation shell, which made it possible to more effectively deal with enemy manpower and destroy light field fortifications.

During the production, changes were made to the gun design: the bolt and sights were modified, the wooden wheels were replaced by wheels from the GAZ-A car on pneumatic tires and the horizontal aiming mechanism was improved. This transitional modification is known as the 45-mm anti-tank gun of the 1934 model of the year.


45-mm gun arr. 1937, calculated on firing position

The gun of the 1937 model of the year (53-K) had a modified semi-automatic, push-button release, spring suspension was introduced, bulletproof wheels with sponge rubber on stamped steel disks were used, changes were made to the machine manufacturing technology. However, in wartime photographs, one can observe the arr. 1937 g. On wheels with spokes, and with steel wheels. Shortly before the start of the war, the production of 45-mm guns was curtailed, the troops were sufficiently saturated with “forty-fives,” and the military leadership believed that anti-tank guns of greater power would be required in a future war.


For the end of the 1930's, the 45-mm gun 53-K was a completely modern anti-tank gun, with good armor penetration and acceptable weight and size characteristics. With the weight in combat position of 560 kg, a calculation of five people could roll it a short distance to change position. The height of the gun was 1200 mm, which made it possible to mask well. Vertical angles: -8 ° to 25 °. Horizontal: 60 °. With a barrel length of 2070 mm, the initial velocity of an armor-piercing projectile weighing 1,43 kg was 760 m / s. At a distance of 500 m, an armor-piercing projectile pierced 43-mm armor during normal tests. The ammunition also included shots with fragmentation grenades and buckshot. The rate of fire of the 45-mm gun was also at a high - 15-20 rds / min.

The characteristics of the guns made it possible to successfully fight at all ranges of targeted fire with armored vehicles protected by bulletproof armor. However, during the summer battles of 1941 of the year, it turned out that 45-mm armor-piercing shells often did not provide damage to tanks with an armor thickness of 30 mm or more. Due to improper heat treatment, approximately 50% of armor-piercing shells cracked upon encountering armor without breaking through it. During the control firing, it turned out that the actual value of the armor penetration of defective shells was about one and a half times less than declared. Given the fact that by the end of the 1941, the Germans began to massively use tanks and self-propelled artillery systems with a frontal armor thickness of 50 mm, insufficient armor penetration of the 45-mm anti-tank guns often led to heavy losses and undermined the belief in them personnel.

To preserve the declared armor penetration, tough measures were required to observe technological discipline at the enterprises of the People's Commissariat of Ammunition. Based on the model of captured ammunition, the 1943-BR-53P sub-caliber armor-piercing tracer shell of the coil form was developed and put into serial production in 240, which had an armor penetration increase of about 500% compared to a caliber armor-piercing projectile. Sub-caliber shells began to enter the troops in the second half of the 30 year and were issued individually by the personal responsibility of the gun commander. The difficulties in supplying raw materials for the manufacture of sub-caliber ammunition, as well as the effectiveness of their use only when firing at distances up to 1943 m, limited the widespread use of such shells. Mass production of high-speed subcaliber shells was problematic due to the acute shortage of molybdenum, tungsten and cobalt. These metals were used as alloying additives in the manufacture of armor steels and hard tool alloys. Attempts to manufacture subcaliber shells with cores of high-carbon steel alloyed with vanadium were unsuccessful. In tests, such cores left dents on the armor, crumbling into small particles without breaking through.

A number of sources say that as of June 22 of 1941, the Red Army was armed with 16 621 pieces of 45-mm guns of all types. In the border districts (Baltic, West, Southwest, Leningrad and Odessa) there were 7520 of them. The production of these guns was carried out even after the start of World War II until the 1943 year, during which time more than 37000 units were manufactured. According to the pre-war schedule, each rifle battalion should have an anti-tank platoon with two 45-mm guns, and a six-gun battery was supposed to be used for the rifle regiment. The reserve of the commander of the rifle division was a separate anti-tank division - 18 guns. In total, the rifle division was supposed to have 54 anti-tank guns, in the mechanized corps - 36. According to the staff list adopted by 29 on July 1941, the rifle battalion was deprived of anti-tank guns, and they were left only at the regimental level in 6 fighter-anti-tank batteries.


At the battalion and regimental level, 45-mm guns were towed by horse carts. Only in the VET division by states was mechanical traction provided - the 21 light Komsomolets crawler tractor. In most cases, what was at hand was used to transport the guns. Due to the shortage of tracked tractors, GAZ-AA and ZIS-5 trucks were often used, which did not have the necessary cross-country ability when driving on bad roads. An obstacle to the introduction of mechanical traction was also the lack of suspension in the 45-mm guns of early production. About 7000 guns available in the troops remained without suspension and with a gun carriage on wooden wheels.

In the confusion of the first months of the war, the Red Army lost a significant part of its anti-tank artillery. Until December 1941, the German troops had several thousand 45-mm guns and a large number of ammunition at their disposal.


German soldiers repair 4,5-cm Pak 184 (r)

Many guns were captured in artillery parks, or on a march before they could enter the battle. In the Wehrmacht, the Soviet 45-mm guns were assigned the designation 4,5-cm Pak 184 (r).


German crew fires from an 45-mm Pak 184 anti-tank gun (r)

The network has a significant number of photos in which German soldiers are captured next to captured 45-mm guns. But in preparing this publication, it was not possible to find reliable information that the 4,5-cm Pak 184 (r) entered the tank fighter divisions.


Apparently, most of the captured 45-mm guns were used in excess of the existing staff. Apparently, the Germans in the initial period of the war did not highly appreciate the anti-tank capabilities of the "forty-five" due to the large proportion of defective armor-piercing shells. It is also worthwhile to understand that even air-conditioned 45-mm armor-piercing shells were ineffective against the frontal armor of the T-34, and heavy KV-1 were practically invulnerable from all sides.

In this regard, captured 45-mm guns more often fired with fragmentation shots, providing fire support to the infantry. In the initial period of hostilities in the USSR, captured “forty-five” often clung to trucks as part of transport convoys, in case of repelling the attacks of breaking through surrounded Soviet units and partisans. Many guns 4,5-cm Pak 184 (r) were available in police units, they were also transferred to Finland. In 1944, American soldiers who landed in Normandy discovered dozens of "forty-fifty" mounted in the fortifications of the Atlantic Wall.

45-mm anti-tank gun of the 1942 model of the year (M-42)


In 1942, due to the lack of effectiveness in tanks with anti-ballistic armor, the 45-mm gun of the 1937 model of the year was modernized, after which it received the name "45-mm anti-tank gun of the 1942 model of the year (M-42)." The modernization consisted in lengthening the barrel from 2070 to 3087 mm, with a simultaneous increase in the powder charge, which made it possible to increase the initial velocity of the armor-piercing projectile to 870 m / s. At a range of 500 m, an armor-piercing projectile normally pierced 61 mm armor. With a firing range of 350 m, a sub-caliber projectile could overcome the side armor of a heavy tank Pz.Kpfw.VI Ausf.H1 with a thickness of 82 mm. In addition to increasing armor penetration during modernization, a number of technological measures were taken to simplify mass production. To better protect the calculation from rifle armor-piercing bullets and large fragments, the thickness of the shield armor was increased from 4,5 mm to 7 mm. As a result of all the changes, the mass of the upgraded gun in combat position increased to 625 kg. However, the gun could still be rolled by calculation forces.

Although in the second half of the war, due to the increased protection of German tanks, the M-42 anti-tank gun no longer fully met the requirements, due to the relatively low cost of manufacture, good mobility and ease of camouflage at a firing position, its use continued until the end of hostilities . From 1942 to 1946, the People's Commissariat of Arms enterprises delivered 11156 copies.


German soldiers inspect captured X-NUMX-mm anti-tank gun M-45

Compared to the 45-mm guns of the pre-war production of M-42 guns, the enemy captured much less. The exact number of guns arr. 1942 g., In the hands of the Germans, it is unknown, apparently, we can talk about several hundred units. Although the M-42 received the designation 4,5-cm Pak 186 (r) in the Wehrmacht, information about its use could not be found. But taking into account the fact that the armor penetration of the upgraded 45-mm gun increased significantly, and the German troops on the Eastern Front always lacked anti-tank artillery, with a high degree of probability it can be assumed that the captured 4,5-cm Pak 186 (r) could reinforce infantry units by secondary sections of the front and use them in fortified areas. A number of 45-mm guns were used for their intended purpose by the Romanian troops until the 1944 year. Part of the Romanian guns mounted on tracked chassis.


Together with the 45-mm guns, the enemy captured several hundred T-20 "Komsomolets" light tracked tractors, protected by bulletproof armor. In the Wehrmacht, the Komsomol members received the designation Gepanzerter Artillerie Schlepper 630 (r).


On the basis of Komsomolets, in the German front-line tank repair shops, an improvised tank destroyer 3,7 cm PaK auf gep Artillerie Schlepper 630 (r) with an 37-mm anti-tank gun 3,7 cm Pak 35 / 36 was made. The exact number of self-propelled guns created on the Komsomolets chassis is not known, but it is likely that some of the vehicles were armed with captured 45-mm guns.

57-mm anti-tank gun ZiS-2


The 57-mm ZiS-2 gun quite rightly claims to be the best Soviet artillery anti-tank system used in the Second World War. The creation of this gun was a response to information on the design in Germany of heavy tanks with anti-shell armor. The serial production of the gun under the designation “57-mm anti-tank gun of the 1941 model of the year” was launched in the summer of the 1941 year. A number of sources say that the 57-mm anti-tank gun was removed from the series in December 1941 due to "excessive power." Given that the 45-mm anti-tank guns in the 1941 year could not always penetrate the frontal armor of the German medium tanks Pz.Kpfw.III and PzKpfw IV, this statement looks strange. The main reason for the cessation of production of 57-mm guns was the difficulty of manufacturing long gun barrels. Due to the decline in production culture caused by the difficulties of wartime and the lack of a special machinery, Soviet industry was unable to establish a mass production of 57-mm guns in the initial period of the war. Compared to the previously produced 45-mm guns, the 57-mm gun was distinguished by increased design complexity, and as a result, in November the People’s Commissariat of Arms decided to suspend the production of anti-tank guns with outstanding characteristics in favor of the mass production of well-developed 1941-mm anti-tank and 45 mm division guns.

In different sources, the number of 57-mm guns fired from June to December of the 1941 year ranges from 250 to 370 units. Perhaps the total takes into account the trunks of the ZiS-4 guns designed to arm tanks. Despite their small numbers, long-barreled anti-tank guns showed themselves well. They entered the anti-tank divisions of rifle divisions and brigades, or the anti-tank regiments of the RGK. The division had 3 batteries for 4 guns - total 12 guns. In anti-tank regiments: from 16 to 24 guns.


Light Tank SPG ZIS-30

Using 57-mm guns on the chassis of the T-20 Komsomolets light tractor, 100 light anti-tank self-propelled guns ZiS-30 were manufactured. The developers took the path of maximum simplification by installing the swinging part of the 57-mm anti-tank gun with a standard shield on the roof of the artillery tractor. The upper machine tool was mounted in the middle part on the machine body. The angles of vertical guidance ranged from -5 to + 25 °, horizontally - in the sector 60 °. Shooting was conducted only from a place. The stability of the self-propelled installation when firing was provided with the help of folding coulters located in the aft of the machine body. The combat crew of the installation consisted of five people.


Light tank destroyer ZiS-30 with calculation at the firing position

Anti-tank self-propelled guns began to enter the troops at the end of September 1941. All of them went to equip anti-tank batteries in tank brigades of the Western and South-Western fronts. When operating from pre-prepared positions, the 57-mm anti-tank guns confidently hit any enemy armored vehicles at real combat distances. However, with longer use, self-propelled guns revealed many shortcomings. The chassis of the Komsomolets tractor was overloaded and often failed. The calculations complained about a silhouette that was too high, which caused poor stability during shooting and made camouflage difficult. Also, there were complaints: a small power reserve, small portable ammunition and poor security. By the summer of 1942, almost all ZiS-30 were lost in battle or failed due to breakdowns.


German soldier poses next to a padded self-propelled gun ZiS-30

Although anti-tank self-propelled guns ZiS-30 quickly left the scene, in the army as of 1 on June 1943, there were still 34 57-mm guns arr. 1941 g., Reduced to anti-tank regiments. The guns continued to be actively used in hostilities, as evidenced by the statements of ammunition consumption. So, over the entire 1942 year, more than 50 000 57-mm shells were fired at the enemy.

After the appearance of the enemy's heavy tanks “Tiger” and “Panther”, as well as strengthening the frontal armor of medium “fours” and self-propelled guns created up to 80 mm on their base, the Red Army sharply raised the question of increasing the armor penetration of anti-tank artillery. In this regard, in May 1943, the production of 57-mm guns was restored. Guns arr. 1943 g. (ZIS-2) differed from arr. 1941 better manufacturability, ballistic characteristics remained unchanged.

Re-launching a series of 57-mm guns was not easy, the first ZiS-2 were made using a year backlog from 1941. The mass production of gun barrels for ZiS-2 was possible to establish only after 6 months - in November 1943 of the year, after the commissioning of new American metal-working machines obtained by Lend-Lease.

The ZiS-2 guns in the 1943 entered the fighter-anti-tank artillery regiments, which were a special anti-tank reserve - according to the 20 guns per regiment. At the end of the 1944, 57-mm guns began to arm the anti-tank divisions of the Guards Rifle Divisions - 12 guns. In most cases, the Dodge WC-51 all-terrain vehicles and Studebaker US6 all-wheel drive vehicles supplied by Lend-Lease were used to tow guns. If necessary, could be used horse traction and six horses. The towing speed on a good road was up to 15 km / h when using horse traction, and up to 60 km / h when using mechanical traction. The mass of the gun in combat position was 1050 kg. Barrel length - 3950 mm. Rate of fire with aim correction - up to 15 rds / min. Vertical angles: from −5 to + 25 °. Horizontal: 57 °. Calculation - 5 people.


57-mm ZiS-2 gun with firing position calculation

After the appearance of the 57-mm ZiS-2 guns in the army, Soviet anti-tank artillery was able to penetrate the frontal armor of German heavy tanks at a distance of up to half a kilometer. According to the armor penetration table, a blunt-headed armor-piercing projectile BR-271, weighing 3,19 kg with an initial speed of 990 m / s at 500 m, normally pierced 114 mm armor. A sub-caliber armor-piercing projectile of a BR-271P reel form, weighing 1,79 kg with an initial speed of 1270 m / s under the same conditions, could penetrate 145 mm armor. The ammunition also had shots with a UO-271 fragmentation grenade weighing 3,68 kg containing 218 g of TNT. At a range of up to 400 m against the enemy infantry, buckshot could be used.

A significant role in the anti-tank defense of the Red Army ZiS-2 began to play with 1944 year. But until the end of the war, despite the high characteristics, the 57-mm guns could not outnumber the 45-mm M-42 and 76-mm ZiS-3. So at the beginning of March of the 1945 year, in the units of the 3-th Ukrainian Front there were 129 57-mm guns, 516 45-mm guns and 1167 76-mm divisional guns. At the same time, taking into account the high armor penetration, the ZiS-2 guns were considered as a special anti-tank reserve and were used very intensively. This is demonstrated by the records of the presence and summary of the losses of artillery in the army. In the 1944 year, anti-tank units had approximately 4000 57-mm guns, while more than 1100 guns were lost during the fighting. Consumption of shells amounted to 460,3 thousand. In January-May of the 1945 year, the troops received about 1000 ZiS-2, the losses amounted to about 500 guns.

Considering that the ZiS-2 anti-tank guns began to enter the army en masse after Germany switched to strategic defense, the enemy managed to capture only a few dozen 57-mm anti-tank guns in good condition.


An American soldier inspects the 57-mm gun ZiS-2, which was used by the Germans under the designation 5,7-cm Pak 208 (r)

In contrast to the “forty-five,” the Germans praised the ZiS-2, which posed a mortal threat to all serial tanks used by the parties at the end of World War II. The captured Soviet 57-mm guns in Germany received the name 5,7-cm Pak 208 (r) and were used up to the surrender of German troops. The captured 57-mm anti-tank guns were used both on the Eastern and Western front, but due to their small numbers they did not have a noticeable effect on the course of hostilities. At least one 5,7-cm Pak 208 (r) gun was captured by US forces in May 1945.

Unlike the 45- and 57-mm guns, the captured 76-mm divisional guns mod. 1936 g. (Ф-22), arr. 1939 g. (SPM) and arr. 1942 g. (ZiS-3), but they will be discussed in the next publication devoted to captured Wehrmacht anti-tank artillery.

To be continued ...
Author:
Articles from this series:
Trophy Austrian, Czechoslovak and Polish anti-tank guns in the German Armed Forces in World War II
Trophy Belgian, British and French anti-tank guns in the German Armed Forces in World War II
107 comments
Ad

Subscribe to our Telegram channel, regularly additional information about the special operation in Ukraine, a large amount of information, videos, something that does not fall on the site: https://t.me/topwar_official

Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. Amurets
    Amurets 1 December 2019 07: 02
    +17
    Sergei! Thanks, interesting. A military unit stood near my house, now it has been disbanded. So, at her checkpoint there were two 45mm guns of the 1937 model, as it should be, a map-diagram of the combat path of the unit. When I walked past this checkpoint, it always struck me how small they were, how small
    shells and really this crumb fought. The shells, of course, were not just blank, but holes were drilled in the casings. Now regarding the article, I was surprised that the Germans used 45mm cannons in the fortifications of the Atlantic Wall. Where did I get this quote? “At the end of 1931, the designers of factory # 8 inserted a new 37 mm tube into the casing of the 1930-mm anti-tank gun model 45 and slightly strengthened the carriage. This system was put into service in March 1932 under the name“ 45-mm anti-tank gun model 1932 ", the factory index of the gun is 19K. Then the designers of the factory # 8 redesigned the 19K field gun for installation in a tank, which was named" 45-mm tank gun model 1932 "and, accordingly, the factory index 20K". Tank turrets of the T-26 tank were used in the construction of URs



    Really the Germans adopted the Soviet experience.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 1 December 2019 08: 21
      +16
      Good morning Nikolai!
      But we still used 45 matches in the fleet! They were put on gunboats, monitors and various boats.
      1. Bongo
        1 December 2019 08: 34
        +11
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        But we still used 45 matches in the fleet! They were put on gunboats, monitors and various boats.

        Vladislav, welcome! hi
        I'm sorry to interfere, but the 45-mm 21-K semi-automatic universal gun was still structurally different from the anti-tank. Despite the fact that their barrel and ammunition were the same.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 1 December 2019 09: 16
          +10
          I agree!
          K-20 and K-21 were developed as universal guns with air defense capabilities for river and sea ships, boats and ships.
          But consider them semi-automatic, I think it is still impossible. Recently, historians have tended to the term "quarter machines"!
          I'm interested in your opinion about something else!
          A number of historians (Shirokorad, Katorin and our Shpakovsky) believe that the 45mm caliber arose after turning the 47mm shell of the Gochix sea gun.
          What do you think about that?
          Regards, Vlad!
          1. Bongo
            1 December 2019 11: 09
            +5
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            A number of historians (Shirokorad, Katorin and our Shpakovsky) believe that the 45mm caliber arose after turning the 47mm shell of the Gochix sea gun.
            What do you think about that?

            Vladislav, I also came across such an opinion. Most likely they are right.
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 1 December 2019 11: 46
              +6
              Then the low quality of 45mm shells at the beginning of World War II, could be associated with the tsar’s ammunition. I dare to suggest that when cutting the belts the quenching of the disc was disturbed. Although it is possible in tsarist times this did not bother. Mine artillery, to which belonged and 47mm quick-fire guns were intended against destroyers and destroyers which reservation was not foreseen in advance.
              1. Bongo
                1 December 2019 11: 56
                +9
                Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                Then the low quality of 45mm shells at the beginning of World War II, could be associated with the tsar’s ammunition. I dare to suggest that when cutting the belts the quenching of the disc was disturbed. Although it is possible in tsarist times this did not bother. Mine artillery, to which belonged and 47mm quick-fire guns were intended against destroyers and destroyers which reservation was not foreseen in advance.

                Vladislav, there were other ammunition for the 47 mm guns of Hotchkiss. It is unlikely that they could be effectively used against tanks. The low quality of armor-piercing shells was also noted for 76,2 mm divisional cannons. So, a large percentage of marriage is still the merit of Soviet enterprises.
              2. dgonni
                dgonni 1 December 2019 18: 07
                +5
                In order to do what kind of thread. You need to know for the design of the Hotchkiss cartridge and the 45mm Soviet projectile! Well, and so suddenly. But Hotchkiss did not have in fact armor-piercing in the sense of how they were positioned in the PTO! Well, like cutting a copper belt, as it were, on armor penetration has no effect!
              3. ser56
                ser56 2 December 2019 14: 38
                +2
                Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                reservation of which was not foreseen a priori.

                But coal pits were used for protection, and a meter of coal is 2dm of armor ... hi
          2. Amurets
            Amurets 3 December 2019 00: 50
            +2
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            A number of historians (Shirokorad, Katorin and our Shpakovsky) believe that the 45mm caliber arose after turning the 47mm shell of the Gochix sea gun.

            Let them consider, if they do not understand why leading belts on shells are needed.
            The lead belt of the projectile is not a bullet that crashes into rifling. In the projectile, into the rifling of the barrel, it is the leading belt that crashes
            "Part of an artillery projectile, firmly fixed on its body, designed to obturate the powder gases and guide the projectile along the rifling of the artillery gun barrel, which ensures that the projectile communicates rotational motion for its stable flight on the trajectory." https://dictionary.mil.ru/folder/123100/item/128510/
            By the way, Shpakovsky has already "lined" rifle barrels for a different caliber.
    2. Bongo
      1 December 2019 08: 26
      +7
      Quote: Amurets
      Sergei! Thanks, interesting. A military unit stood near my house, now it has been disbanded. So, at her checkpoint there were two 45mm guns of the 1937 model, as it should be, a map-diagram of the combat path of the unit.

      Nikolay, welcome! In Khabarovsk, on Seryshev, near the entrance to the headquarters of the KDVO are 45-mm guns mod. 1937 and M-42, at the other entrance is a T-18 tank. There was a time, I admired them almost every day.
      Quote: Amurets
      I was surprised that the Germans used 45mm guns in the fortifications of the Atlantic Wall.

      Quote: Amurets
      Tank towers of the T-26 tank were used in the construction of URs

      Quote: Amurets
      Really the Germans adopted the Soviet experience.

      The idea of ​​using tank turrets in URs lies on the surface. As for the Atlantic Wall, the Germans collected there a large number of captured guns from different countries. But "magpies" were used in pillboxes, or in fortified caponiers.
      1. Amurets
        Amurets 1 December 2019 09: 52
        +7
        Quote: Bongo
        As for the Atlantic Wall, the Germans collected there a large number of captured guns from different countries. But "magpies" were used in pillboxes, or in fortified caponiers.

        Do you want to say in the pre-installation or casemate installation? Like here such DOT-4?


        1. Bongo
          1 December 2019 11: 08
          +9
          Quote: Amurets
          Do you want to say in the pre-installation or casemate installation? Like here such DOT-4?

          No. No. These were bunkers in which the guns rolled up on wheels.

          The British (or Canadians) are firing from the "forty-five" captured from the Germans.
          1. Amurets
            Amurets 1 December 2019 13: 06
            +5
            Quote: Bongo
            These were bunkers in which the guns rolled up on wheels.

            Then it’s clear. Neither anti-school protection, nor anti-chemical.
            1. Bongo
              1 December 2019 13: 11
              +4
              Quote: Amurets
              Then it’s clear. Neither anti-school protection, nor anti-chemical.

              But the gut ... wink
            2. militarist63
              militarist63 2 December 2019 00: 40
              0
              Against the Anglo-Saxons enough!
            3. hohol95
              hohol95 2 December 2019 10: 27
              +1
              Prelude to Barbarossa (Kolomiyets M., Makarov M.)
              Photo 68 -
              Artillery half-capier on the old border, armed with a 76-mm field gun of 1902.
              Photo taken from the magazine did not work!
              1. Amurets
                Amurets 2 December 2019 11: 46
                +4
                Quote: hohol95
                Artillery half-capier on the old border, armed with a 76-mm field gun of 1902.

                It? Opens in the browser.
                1. hohol95
                  hohol95 2 December 2019 11: 50
                  +4
                  It, it. I was looking for the photo itself without text - I didn’t dig.
                  Apparently everyone was fond of similar cheap constructions. Cheap and fast.
                  1. Amurets
                    Amurets 2 December 2019 11: 59
                    +3
                    Quote: hohol95
                    Apparently everyone was fond of similar cheap constructions. Cheap and fast.

                    As an element of disguise. On the Internet you can find such photos. Masked bunkers under sheds, buildings, haystacks, large boulders. Well, the price mattered.
    3. EvilLion
      EvilLion 2 December 2019 13: 41
      +4
      In fact, fortresses are always a warehouse of illiquid assets (and rare captured cannons are usually illiquid assets) and the location of the least combat-ready troops that cannot be moved anywhere. And so the Germans did and bunkers with towers from the "panther", which is really strange and not from a good life.
  2. andrewkor
    andrewkor 1 December 2019 07: 21
    +7
    Slowly, slowly the picture is developing! It would be very interesting to learn about the use of captured weapons in the USSR after WWII. Something is known about Caesar and Luttsov, but I would like to know about the rest too!
    1. Bongo
      1 December 2019 08: 39
      +12
      Quote: andrewkor
      It would be very interesting to learn about the use of captured weapons in the USSR after WWII.

      For all the weapons I will not say, but the 75-mm anti-tank Cancer 40, 88 and 105-mm anti-aircraft guns were in storage until the end of the 1960s. Trophy six-barreled "mortars" were actively used in the Korean War. Subsequently, the USSR transferred German small arms in the form of military assistance to various national liberation movements. For example, MG-34 and MG-42 machine guns actively fought against the Americans in Vietnam. German rifles Mauser 98k are still sold in our gun shops as a hunting weapon.
    2. dgonni
      dgonni 1 December 2019 18: 11
      +1
      Open the wiki and enlighten. For the concept of a fleet, warships of the USSR are 1928-1945. Although there are no Japanese destroyers, however, as well as Admiral Makarov, who became Soviet. And so there everything is laid out on the shelves.
  3. Anatole Klim
    Anatole Klim 1 December 2019 09: 09
    +13
    The ZIS-2 is still fighting in Syria and, according to unconfirmed reports, is used by the Houthis in Yemen. Of course, you can't take a modern tank with this legendary cannon, but it can easily hit armored vehicles, moreover, it will be a little expensive to shoot ATGMs at all "Hummers", but then from an ambush with a cheap shell it hit and destroyed.
    1. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 1 December 2019 10: 02
      +12
      My bro served in an artillery unit (130-mm M-46 cannon ...) in the 70s ... he said that when going to training ranges, they took "magpies" with them for zeroing ... yes
      By the way, in North Korea, although they were removed from the army, they did not throw them into the "scrap metal"! Just in case, they are stored in storage warehouses ...
      1. chenia
        chenia 1 December 2019 10: 22
        +6
        Quote: Nikolaevich I
        My bro served in the artillery unit (130-mm gun M-46 ...) in the 70s ...


        Bro a little wrong. The absolute substitute for artillery was ZIS 3, and not ZIS 2.
        1. Nikolaevich I
          Nikolaevich I 1 December 2019 11: 13
          +5
          Quite possibly ! It is possible that the bro accidentally made a mistake or made a slip of the tongue, in fact, he did not mean "forty-five" ... request Although, I have sometimes met the statement earlier that the "forty-five", nevertheless, were used for zeroing ... even, in the post-war years. But I can't argue in any way, tk. , I can only refer to what I once read or told me ...
          1. chenia
            chenia 1 December 2019 18: 35
            +3
            Quote: Nikolaevich I
            , nevertheless, were used for shooting ... even, in the postwar years.


            Used. but for its intended purpose. For example, in VU the first live firing (1973) on direct fire we were fired from ZIS-2 (the main truth was D-44 and T-12). And the PDO shooting for 130mm (heavy cannon regiment (brigade) is separate (naya) or in the AD of the RGK) is the main one, the gap fountain is weak, and the ZIS 3 fired more (and the shells too). than ZIS-2
            1. Nikolaevich I
              Nikolaevich I 2 December 2019 06: 43
              0
              Probably, everything was so ... especially since the unit had 130-mm guns ... compared to them, "some" ZiS-2 or ZiS-3 could seem "small!"
      2. BAI
        BAI 1 December 2019 16: 10
        +11
        Forty and now successfully used in everyday life
    2. dgonni
      dgonni 1 December 2019 18: 13
      +3
      I agree. Akromya one! Ptur can be fired from a given calculation position. The gun does not allow such frills. 3 shots and you need to tear the claws from the gun. Well then the tactics of application.
      1. Svarog51
        Svarog51 2 December 2019 00: 14
        +7
        3 shots and need to tear the claws

        I agree, but it already was. The third cigarette lighter is a potential suicide bomber from a sniper bullet. The question is, how is the position hidden? The guns still shoot, like WWII. To detect them in the current conditions with all sorts of devices is easier. And suddenly there is no such device with the intelligence and slam the position. And they will do such a thing that mom does not spoil.
    3. EvilLion
      EvilLion 2 December 2019 13: 44
      +3
      100 mm penetration is guaranteed to pierce any NATO tank on board, good chances against Soviet cars on board, and a full finish from any angle to any light armored vehicles.
  4. The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 1 December 2019 09: 10
    +5
    Thanks. It was also interesting to read, but there is a comment - too "scattered" on the repetition of the stories of creation and the production problems of our artillery systems. These facts are often known to the reader.
  5. igordok
    igordok 1 December 2019 09: 42
    +7
    Thank. There is a lot of information about the artillery service in the Red Army in the article. But as a trophy, not enough. sad I understand that there is not enough information, but I want more.
    1. Bongo
      1 December 2019 11: 13
      +8
      Quote: igordok
      But as a trophy, not enough. sad I understand that there is not enough information, but I want more.

      Unfortunately, this is all that can be documented. request Publishing rumors and speculation is not considered possible.
  6. Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 1 December 2019 10: 21
    +6
    Hello, Sergey! You mentioned such German designations for "magpies" as Cancer 184 (r), Cancer 186 (r) ..., but I also met the designation Cancer 185 (r) ... Considering that the 45 mm guns were arr. 1932, 1937, 1942 ... then ... you can think of anything! what
    1. Bongo
      1 December 2019 11: 03
      +6
      Quote: Nikolaevich I
      Hello, Sergey! You mentioned such German designations for "magpies" as Cancer 184 (r), Cancer 186 (r) ..., but I also met the designation Cancer 185 (r) ... Considering that the 45 mm guns were arr. 1932, 1937, 1942 ... then ... you can think of anything!

      Hello Vladimir The designation Cancer 185 (r) came across to me only at Shirokorad, perhaps he was mistaken. request Other sources do not confirm this. Tools arr. 1932 ... 1937 in terms of ballistic characteristics were the same, and it seems to me that the Germans did not make a difference between them.
      1. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 1 December 2019 11: 08
        +4
        Quote: Bongo
        The designation Cancer 185 (r) came across to me only at Shirokorad, perhaps he was mistaken.

        Yes you are right ! The designation Cancer 185 (r) I met at Shirokorad ...
    2. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 1 December 2019 11: 03
      +5
      PS Some kind of "rubbish" turns out ... here is a fragment from the reprint of Shirokorad's book A.B. : During the Eastern campaign, the Germans captured several hundred Soviet 45-mm anti-tank guns 19K and 53K. The Germans gave them the name 4,5 cm Pak 185 (r), apparently without making much difference between the modifications. The Germans did not favor these guns, as did our soldiers, who called them "Farewell, Motherland." But you, Sergei ... are designated Cancer 184 (r) ... Somewhere a mistake ... a misunderstanding ...
      1. Bongo
        1 December 2019 11: 11
        +4
        Quote: Nikolaevich I
        But you, Sergey ... is the designation Cancer 184 (r) ... Somewhere a mistake ... a misunderstanding ...

        In Russian and English sources 4,5-cm Pak 184 (r) and 4,5-cm Pak 186 (r) request
        1. Nikolaevich I
          Nikolaevich I 1 December 2019 11: 37
          +5
          By the way, Shirokorad also has such an assertion that the Belgian 47-mm cannons are named by the Germans as Cancer 185 (b) ... Cancer 185 (r) and Cancer 185 (b) ... isn't it "the dog is buried" here? what
          1. Bongo
            1 December 2019 11: 38
            +5
            Quote: Nikolaevich I
            By the way, Shirokorad also has such an assertion that the Belgian 47-mm cannons are named by the Germans as Cancer 185 (b) ... Cancer 185 (r) and Cancer 185 (b) ... isn't it "the dog is buried" here?

            I came to the same conclusion ... yes
            1. Svarog51
              Svarog51 2 December 2019 00: 19
              +5
              Sergei hi And so you know, I look forward to continuing. good But about
              "the dog is buried"

              Have you and Nikolayevich been infected from the Koreans there? wink
              The fish is tastier. Although what am I talking about? I’m March - I’m a fish. recourse
              1. Bongo
                2 December 2019 03: 10
                +5
                Quote: Svarog51
                Have you and Nikolayevich been infected from the Koreans there?

                Sergey, hello! I risk such a confession to run into the anger of the "dog lovers", but the local Koreans treated me to the dog-like dog ... quite edible. However, I also tried raccoon dog, bear meat and badger. I still live in the Far East. But with the fish every year we are getting worse. Catch quotas are given to foreigners and Moscow companies, and chum salmon almost never reach us. There are huge fines for catching grayling, lenok and taimen. so the fish and we have a road today.
                1. Svarog51
                  Svarog51 3 December 2019 05: 25
                  +6
                  As for the "dog lovers" - you didn't cook them. Five years ago, my old houses were demolished near the garage. Homeless people lived there for some time - they also killed all the dogs. And they don't seem to be Koreans. request And with the fish it seems normal, I regularly buy chum salmon by order of my wife, she cooks a light-salted cut from it. But he wanted to find a smoked sturgeon and treat his wife - he traveled all over the city, but did not find it. And I live 100 km from the Volga. Another river fish in bulk. Sometimes such names are found that I never heard.
                  P.S. Fine for grayling, lenok and taimen, even if you catch one fish for yourself? belay
                  1. Bongo
                    3 December 2019 07: 22
                    +1
                    Quote: Svarog51
                    And with the fish it seems normal, I regularly buy chum salmon by order of my wife, she cooks a light-salted cut from it.

                    So it is normal in shops, and how much it costs at you. And to Komsomolsk fish began to reach much less, it is all caught in the estuary by barbaric methods. The saddest thing is that she cannot rise to spawning grounds.
                    Quote: Svarog51
                    Fine for grayling, lenok and taimen, even if you catch one fish for yourself?

                    And there is. For one taimen, a fine of more than 10 rubles. People can get 000-200 thousand for one fishing.
    3. The comment was deleted.
      1. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 1 December 2019 14: 36
        +3
        Quote: Amurets
        Anti-tank gun of the Leningrad volunteers

        Well, yes ... there was such a gun. Mentioned very infrequently ... relatively few were released. Leningrad "blockade homemade", made on the basis of old tank guns, intended for melting ... And what?
        1. Amurets
          Amurets 1 December 2019 15: 07
          +4
          Quote: Nikolaevich I
          Leningrad "blockade homemade", made on the basis of old tank guns, intended for melting ... And what?

          The people will know what our grandfathers fought.
        2. serg.shishkov2015
          serg.shishkov2015 2 December 2019 12: 40
          +2
          In my collection * Veteran * there are recollections of a man who fought at the beginning of the war with such a gun, according to the memoirs, it is rather cumbersome and uncomfortable. When I found out about * Leningrad * in VO, I realized that it was about her - the person described it as a makeshift
          1. Nikolaevich I
            Nikolaevich I 2 December 2019 14: 25
            +3
            Quote: serg.shishkov2015
            there are memories of a man who fought at the beginning of the war with such a gun, according to the memoirs, it is rather bulky and uncomfortable,

            Yes, there were enough complaints about this gun ... Well, "homemade"! There was not enough weapons, but somehow it was necessary to fight ...
            1. serg.shishkov2015
              serg.shishkov2015 3 December 2019 06: 01
              +3
              And I don’t argue with that! and the topic of artisanal weapons in the Great Patriotic War is a separate interest for me, I’m doing notes in my head!
              1. Nikolaevich I
                Nikolaevich I 3 December 2019 08: 28
                +3
                Quote: serg.shishkov2015
                the theme of artisanal weapons in the Great Patriotic War is a separate interest for me

                And you're right! The topic of "handicraft", "home-made" weapons in "full" and conventional senses is very interesting and certainly deserves attention! Of course, materials on this topic have appeared and appear from time to time ... but it is still worthwhile to start uniting, systematizing such materials.
                1. serg.shishkov2015
                  serg.shishkov2015 3 December 2019 08: 33
                  0
                  This year in * TiV * I had a cool parish! DA-2UPS, 76-mm self-propelled guns on a wheeled and tracked chassis, RPU!
  7. chenia
    chenia 1 December 2019 10: 38
    +6
    45 mm (and in the M-42 version) is an excellent battalion anti-aircraft gun. They fire at extremely close range. and often on board. Also being in battle formations of the battalion are covered by infantry.
    But for PT res. shelf (and above), 45 mm is not suitable. Fri lines (Fri areas) are located behind the first position. they cannot always be covered by their infantry, and therefore anti-aircraft guns of this level should be able to hit enemy tanks at their maximum range (outside the area of ​​their machine-gun fire). Here 57 mm would fit. And unfortunately, for the period of defensive (before the Battle of Kursk) battles, the Red Army did not have normal anti-tank artillery (they were taken away from battalions, ineffective in regiments and divisions). And I had to use. Everything that was at hand.
  8. L-39NG
    L-39NG 1 December 2019 13: 03
    +4
    The second photo "45-mm cannon model 1937 with the calculation at the firing position" is also interesting for the reason that the loader has a Czechoslovak helmet vz. 32 (Přilba vz. 32)
  9. TVK
    TVK 1 December 2019 13: 23
    +7
    Thank you, the article is interesting. You can simply add that at the beginning of the war, the "forty-five" was the most massive weapon, and therefore in large quantities fell to the enemy. This massiveness was achieved by the introduction in 1938 of a conveyor assembly at the plant, first 45 mm tank, and then anti-tank "forty-five", which were collected and fired back in the same shop. In addition, a number of units and parts they had the same. The conveyor was debugged in two months. This workshop even had its own testing ground. As for Germany, they did not assemble the guns on the conveyor; in the design bureaus, many modifications of weapons were created, which were produced in small batches. As a result, many armaments lacked corny spare parts, which did not allow for quick repairs. My grandfather was engaged in "forty-five" back in 1931, when he returned to the plant as an engineer after university. The last modification (53K) was made by him as Chief Designer. After 1935, when the plant began to deal exclusively with anti-aircraft and naval artillery, the design bureau no longer dealt with anti-tank guns. However, all anti-aircraft guns were specially designed universal, which made it possible to use them as anti-tank guns. I draw your attention, specifically, on the instructions of the GAU, realizing that the available anti-tank artillery was not enough. As a result, literally three years before the war, all the anti-aircraft artillery of the Great Patriotic War was created, my grandfather did not have time to finish a lot (for example, weaving), but some samples were calculated theoretically, which made it possible to create them after the war.
    1. Alf
      Alf 1 December 2019 22: 13
      +1
      Quote: TCEs
      However, all anti-aircraft guns were specially designed universal, which allowed them to be used as anti-tank.

      And what, in your opinion, was the specialty of the design of anti-aircraft guns for fighting tanks?
      1. TVK
        TVK 1 December 2019 23: 28
        +2
        This is not my opinion, this is the opinion of the head of the anti-aircraft weapons department of the Artkom GAU RKKA Traube Petr Borisovich. I quote: "All anti-aircraft guns, as a rule, were provided with a sighting device for firing at ground targets, including tanks. For this purpose, armor-piercing shells were included in the ammunition of each anti-aircraft gun." I have his manuscript on the development of anti-aircraft artillery from that period.
  10. Undecim
    Undecim 1 December 2019 14: 31
    +3
    At the end of 1931, the designers of the plant number 8 named after Kalinin in Mytishchi near Moscow
    A slight inaccuracy. Factory number 8 named after Kalinin since 1919 was located in Podlipki near Moscow.
    1. TVK
      TVK 1 December 2019 19: 37
      +5
      No, the author is correct. The territory where the plant was located belonged to Mytishchi, although Podlipki station was nearby. In 1928, the village, which was formed as a result of the growth and development of the plant, was named Kalinenets, and in 1938 it was given the status of a city, Kaliningrad. But on German prewar maps, the address of the plant is still Mytishchi.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 1 December 2019 20: 49
        +2
        The territory where the plant was located belonged to Mytishchi
        How did the territory of the villa community of Villa Podlipki "relate" to Mytishchi?
        1. TVK
          TVK 1 December 2019 22: 04
          +6
          Very simple, Country Podliki entered Mytishchi. Source: D. Guryanov. The streets of my childhood. Old Mytishchi. There is German aerial photography.
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 2 December 2019 01: 10
            +1
            Back to the starting positions.
            At the end of 1931, the designers of the plant number 8 named after Kalinin in Mytishchi near Moscow

            That is, we are talking about 1931.
            The settlements of Bolshoi Mytishchi, Rupasovo, Sharapovo, Zarechnaya Sloboda, Leonidovka, Perlovka, Tayninsky settlements, Friendship and Taininka were included in Mytishchi in November 1932.
            The village of Podlipki (formerly Novo-Perlovka, future Kalininsky - Kaliningrad - Korolev), located a few kilometers from Perlovka, in which the Orudny Zavod (future Plant No. 1918) was evacuated, was not part of Mytishchi.
            Podlipki Station is not a settlement of Podlipki.
            1. Undecim
              Undecim 2 December 2019 01: 28
              +1
              Source - "Handbook on the administrative-territorial division of the Moscow region in 1929-2004."
            2. TVK
              TVK 2 December 2019 12: 15
              +2
              Podlipki (as a settlement, not a station) did not enter Mytishchi in 1932, because they had already entered earlier, in 1917. But it was like this. I will omit the story of the sale and purchase of land for summer cottages, to begin with the fact that part of the land was in the possession of the British engineering company "Bekos", where it wanted to build a plant. They managed to build several workshops, a railway line and buildings for workers. In 1917, after the well-known events, the workers of the plant organized a council of people's deputies, which entered the Mytishchi council. In 1918 the village was renamed Podlipki. Many owners abandoned their dachas, the workshops were privatized, and in 1919, after long ordeals, a plant arrived here from St. Petersburg. And my ancestors along with him, some settled in abandoned dachas. In 1925 Mytishchi became a city, and in 1928 Podlipki was renamed Kalininets. And in 1931 it was a village included in the urban district of Mytishchi. And all official documents, certificates, etc. were issued in Mytishchi. But in 1939 the village was transformed into the city of Kaliningrad. Three people became the initiators - my grandfather, the chief designer of the plant Loginov, the director of the plant Nosovsky and the head of the village council Boldyrev. All this is in the local history museums of Mytishchi and Korolev, where you can get acquainted with the documents.
              1. TVK
                TVK 2 December 2019 12: 19
                +1
                A typo in 1938 became a city.
              2. Undecim
                Undecim 2 December 2019 12: 21
                +1
                As it is even uncomfortable for me to discuss with you, but the question is interesting. What do you mean by "urban district"? Is this the Mytishchi district or is it the territory of the city of Mytishchi?
                1. TVK
                  TVK 3 December 2019 00: 16
                  +4
                  You can always discuss, sometimes you can find out a lot of interesting things that you won’t find on the Internet! In 1931, it was considered one city of Mytishchi and the author of the article apparently used official documents. One party organization, one city council, passport offices, etc. I have a lot of all kinds of documents left from my grandparents, all of them are Mytishchi. In the district I will not say which cities and when they entered. I was more interested in the history of the plant. After all, this plant in the several years before the war produced 12 times more guns than all the artillery plants combined for the same period. And my grandfather was just doing all sorts of papers to transform into a city, since he personally knew Kalinin.
                  And now I’m more interested in technical details. Nowhere I can not find why the 85 mm anti-aircraft guns have different trunks, similar to 76 mm and with a conical part in the middle. And both with a muzzle brake! Maybe someone knows.
                  1. Undecim
                    Undecim 3 December 2019 07: 58
                    +1
                    And on the trunks, can you specify the question, which anti-aircraft gun is of interest to you and what is of interest to it?
                    1. TVK
                      TVK 3 December 2019 13: 32
                      +4
                      Initially, 85 anti-aircraft guns had a barrel with a casing and a free pipe (such as a pipe in a pipe), however, in 1944, they already made a monolithic in Sverdlovsk. This seems to be understandable. However, in many photographs in museums (for example, on Poklonnaya Gora), the monolithic trunk goes like 1939. And vice versa, the barrel with a casing and a loose pipe is ascribed only to a 76 mm cannon. For example, in Lobny, on the line where the 85 mm anti-aircraft guns stopped the tank attack, there is an 85 mm anti-aircraft gun with a casing. And in their museum of local lore they claim that it is 76 mm, since when installed, the right gun was not found. But they did not install a muzzle brake at 76 mm, as far as I know, but in Lobny there is. On many sites on the Internet, the visual differences between the guns are described as having a 85 muzzle brake and a cone in the middle of the barrel. Either it's their jambs or I missed something. And to climb a monument with a roulette is somehow not handy lol
                      1. Undecim
                        Undecim 3 December 2019 14: 13
                        +2
                        I don’t see a particular problem here. During the Great Patriotic War in the Red Army in the caliber of 76 mm and 85 mm, four types of anti-aircraft guns were used.

                        76-mm anti-aircraft gun of the 1931 model (3-K).
                      2. Undecim
                        Undecim 3 December 2019 14: 25
                        +2

                        76 mm anti-aircraft gun arr. 1938 year. This is the same anti-aircraft gun of 1931, but mounted on a four-wheeled platform ZU-8. Relatively few have been released. This gun is most often confused with the 85 mm anti-aircraft gun of the 1939 model (52-K).
                      3. Undecim
                        Undecim 3 December 2019 14: 29
                        +2

                        85-mm anti-aircraft gun of the 1939 model (52-K).
                        Despite the strong external similarity of both guns, they have two distinctive details of the part: the 85 mm anti-aircraft gun of the 1939 model is equipped with a muzzle brake and has a conical section in the middle of the barrel. In contrast, the three-inch barrel is completely straight.
                      4. Undecim
                        Undecim 3 December 2019 14: 42
                        +2

                        Since 1944, in Sverdlovsk, under the index KS-12, a slightly modernized version of the 52-K gun was produced.
                      5. Undecim
                        Undecim 3 December 2019 14: 48
                        +2
                        Now about the trunks. Let's use the book "Handbook of the Anti-Aircraft Officer.
                        Book 3 Material part of anti-aircraft artillery "
                        under the general editorship of Major General of Artillery Prokhorov P. M.
                        Military Publishing House of the USSR Ministry of Internal Affairs, 1946. Both the book and the publishing house can be completely trusted.
                        Let's start with 76 mm guns.
                      6. Undecim
                        Undecim 3 December 2019 14: 51
                        +2

                        This applies to the 1938 model.
                      7. Undecim
                        Undecim 3 December 2019 14: 53
                        +2

                        This is the trunks of 85 mm guns
                      8. Undecim
                        Undecim 3 December 2019 14: 56
                        +2

                        Clarification by wartime production trunks.
                        I hope now you can figure out your question.
                      9. TVK
                        TVK 3 December 2019 20: 22
                        +3
                        And what is this?
                      10. TVK
                        TVK 3 December 2019 20: 26
                        +2
                        It is written 85 mm, and the trunk is not the same as in your photo from Poklonnaya Gora. There the trunk is monolithic with a conical part in the middle. And here in the photo is a pipe in a casing. This is the problem. That is the problem.
                      11. TVK
                        TVK 3 December 2019 20: 39
                        +2
                        In my photo, an 85 mm gun in Mitino in Moscow. If in wartime barrels were made in the form of a monoblock, then there were already blueprints and were tested up to 44 years. And in many sources they say that the monoblock was only in the 1944 modification.
                      12. Undecim
                        Undecim 3 December 2019 22: 15
                        +2
                        Honestly, you are driving yourself into a corner with these "many" sources, in my opinion. What "many sources" can you name? The source that I cited indicates that the barrel can be either fastened or a monoblock.
                        By the way, the candy bar is widely represented in museum displays.
                      13. Undecim
                        Undecim 3 December 2019 22: 21
                        +2
                        But 52-K military photographs with such a barrel are extremely difficult to find. I have one. The second is in doubt.

                        Stalingrad. The area of ​​the fallen fighters.
                      14. Undecim
                        Undecim 3 December 2019 22: 26
                        +2
                        But there are a lot of photos of guns with a fastened barrel, as on yours.

                        Leningrad, 1942.
                      15. Undecim
                        Undecim 3 December 2019 22: 29
                        +2

                        Tula, 1941.
                        Therefore, I do not see any problem.
                      16. Undecim
                        Undecim 3 December 2019 22: 38
                        +2

                        Found another one. 1945, Budapest.
                      17. Undecim
                        Undecim 3 December 2019 22: 36
                        +2

                        Central Museum of the Great Patriotic War.
                      18. TVK
                        TVK 4 December 2019 22: 27
                        +2

                        This is the source and also Poklonnaya Gora. However, thanks for the shot from Stalingrad. I do not have that. So there were two options for the trunk before 44 years. Since they were manufactured, it means there was technical documentation and tests were carried out. And now you can archive. By the way, I was at the Museum of Defense of Moscow today and again everything is mixed up there. They say that anti-aircraft guns were made by the Bolshevik factory in Leningrad. It seems like a solid museum .... Here are the sources ...
  11. AsmyppoL
    AsmyppoL 1 December 2019 17: 35
    +6
    Sergey, thanks for the interesting article!
    Spent half a day: I wanted to find information about the 45-mm guns in the arsenal of the Wehrmacht.
    It was possible to find only information from May 1942 and later ... It talked about our guns, which were armed with the Wehrmacht: 7,62, 12,2 and 15,2 cm. It is possible that forty-five were armed with light batteries in the Wehrmacht until spring 1942 year. Since May 1942 only 7,62 cm cannons were available from Russian cannons armed with light batteries
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. AsmyppoL
      AsmyppoL 1 December 2019 18: 11
      +6
      Nevertheless, several documents were found that the Wehrmacht was armed with 45 mm guns.

      "Documents of an artillery officer at the headquarters of the 4th army: report on an inspection trip to check the defense strongholds of the 331st infantry division on the Bolva river north of Bryansk."
  12. bubalik
    bubalik 1 December 2019 17: 40
    +8
    Thanks to the author good

    Budapest, Hungary, October 1944
    1. Svarog51
      Svarog51 2 December 2019 00: 31
      +8
      Sergei hi Isn't the Royal Tiger in the background? My uncle (mechanic driver T-34, 4th Ukrainian) talked about Bolatonskaya and the capture of Budapest (I didn’t go to school at that time, but the construction of a “fir-tree” down the street stuck in my memory), while always crying remembering comrades in arms. Then they got a solid "beast". He said if it weren't for the IPTAPs, everyone would have stayed there. I was out of the house then, what he was talking about, then I realized.
  13. dgonni
    dgonni 1 December 2019 21: 29
    +5
    Further, as I understand it will be the most delicious! Many do not like it, but in fact in 1942 and until the end of 1943 the Germans were provided with trophies received in the USSR during the initial period of the war. Yes, bored our universal divisions. F-22 and f-22
    1. Alf
      Alf 1 December 2019 22: 18
      +4
      Yes, 358 F-22 and SPM guns were outgrown.
      1. Amurets
        Amurets 2 December 2019 14: 14
        +2
        Quote: Alf
        Yes, 358 F-22 and SPM guns were outgrown.

        Well, we are already starting to put the cart before the horse. We do not yet know what the author will write next
    2. stalkerwalker
      stalkerwalker 2 December 2019 01: 52
      +5
      Quote: dgonni
      Many do not like it, but in fact in 1942 and until the end of 1943 the Germans were provided with trophies received in the USSR during the initial period of the war

      The use of "armor-burning" (cumulative) shells allowed the use of such "monsters" as the Pak 97/38: the swinging part of the 75-mm French cannon mod. 1897 was imposed on the carriage of the German 5-cm anti-tank gun Pak 38. The barrel of the gun was equipped with a muzzle brake. This is how the anti-tank gun turned out. 7 cm Pak 5/97. In 1942, the Wehrmacht received 2854 units of 7,5-cm Pak 97/38 guns.
      In all its "glory", the advantage of the new type of anti-tank missiles was "shown" in the battles near Stalingrad, when attempts to break through the "northern finger" and unite with the defenders of Stalingrad led to massive, if not gigantic, losses of Soviet armored vehicles.
      1. hohol95
        hohol95 2 December 2019 13: 46
        +1
        For firing, shots developed by the Germans with an armor-piercing projectile PzGr and a cumulative HL.Gr 38/97 were used. The fragmentation was used only by the French, who received the designation SprGr 230/1 (f) and SprGr 233/1 (f) in the Wehrmacht.

        In all its "glory", the advantage of the new type of anti-tank missiles was "shown" in the battles near Stalingrad, when attempts to break through the "northern finger" and unite with the defenders of Stalingrad led to massive, if not gigantic, losses of Soviet armored vehicles.

        Germans burned all IS-2?
        Or they still had to deal with the more numerous T-60 / T-70 and the rare T-34 and KV-1s.
        1. stalkerwalker
          stalkerwalker 2 December 2019 15: 25
          +5
          Quote: hohol95
          Germans burned all IS-2?

          It is a question or a statement?
          Quote: hohol95
          Or they still had to deal with the more numerous T-60 / T-70 and the rare T-34 and KV-1s.

          Was the T-34 rare? Yes, and KV-1 were not counted in units ...
          One example of one of the days of one of the next breakthrough attempts
          ... The 7th Panzer Corps was concentrated in the strip of the 66th Army of R. Ya. Malinowski. Now he had to act in collaboration with the 64th and 99th rifle divisions (7148 people and 8531 people on September 20.09, respectively) in a two-brigade composition. The composite 87th tank brigade of the corps numbered 24 T-34s and 15 T-60s, and the attached 58th tank brigade - another 43 vehicles.
          At 18.00:24 on September 30, after a 7-minute artillery preparation, the offensive began. Two brigades of the XNUMXth Panzer Corps advanced and soon broke through the front line of the enemy’s defense. Infantry under the influence of artillery and mortar fire of the Germans reduced the pace of the offensive and was far behind tanks. Tank assaults dismounted when approaching the front line of the enemy, and communication with them was lost. Despite the onset of darkness, which impedes the actions of the deadly aircraft of the Germans, the infantry did not go after the tanks. Separate tanks that broke into the depths of the defense were burned. Several tanks lost their orientation in the dark and went to Akatovka, where they captured the staff car and returned to their original positions.
          In the morning of September 25, the offensive was resumed, but was not successful. However, the Germans counterattacks to restore the situation were also reflected. In two days, out of 89 tanks of the Rotmistrov corps participating in the battle, 75 tanks failed, of which 29 tanks were irretrievably lost. The tanks, which were the main striking force of counterattacks, were knocked out, and the offensive impulse ran out
          Meanwhile, the tank fleet of the corps was gradually melting. On September 24, the 16th Panzer Corps lost 11 KV and 28 T-34s, and by the end of September 25, only 3 T-34s and 11 T-60s remained in service ...

          Or. History of 2 brigades "missing" in one attack ...
          ... For the new offensive of the 24th Army, two fresh tank brigades were transferred: the 241st (23 M3 Li and 25 M3 Stuart) and 167th (29 MkIII Valentine and 21 T-70 ..
          The development of events with the onset of the offensive was generally quite typical for this direction. Under heavy fire, the infantry lagged behind the tanks and had no advance. The tank landing dismounted. This is not surprising: the consumption of ammunition in the XIV corps for September 30 was comparable to the most intense days of the “battle for the semaphore” and amounted to 198 tons. Quickly rushing forward, the tanks disappeared behind the crest of heights and out of sight. Radio communication with the brigades was maintained until 11.30 on September 30. Subsequent attempts to reconnect with tanks that broke into the depths of the defense continued until the end of the next day, but yielded no results. Two tanks in the brigade returned from the battlefield, and one vehicle each evacuated the brigade. The fate of the remaining cars then remained unknown. German documents make it possible to shed light on the fate of those received by Lend-Lease and overnight disappeared "Lee", "Stuarts" and "Valentines". In the ZhBD of the 6th Army, it was noted that the offensive was repelled by the forces of the 3rd Motorized Division, 60 Soviet tanks were knocked out already behind the line of defense of the compound. According to the report of the XIV Corps, on September 30, a total of 24 Soviet and 100 non-Soviet tanks were destroyed, distributed according to type as follows: 2 T-34, 3 T-60, 19 T-70, 8 M3 “General Lee”, 47 M3 “Stuart "And 24" Valentine "...
          1. hohol95
            hohol95 2 December 2019 15: 53
            +3
            According to the report of the XIV corps, for September 30 only 24 Soviet and 100 non-Soviet tanks were destroyed, distributed according to types as follows: 2 T-34, 3 T-60, 19 T-70, 8 M3 “General Lee”, 47 M3 “Stuart” and 24 “Valentine” ...

            Well, they "destroy" like nuts are pricked ...
    3. hohol95
      hohol95 2 December 2019 13: 43
      +3
      Many do not like it, but in fact in 1942 and until the end of 1943 the Germans were provided with trophies received in the USSR during the initial period of the war.

      I think you are wrong! For modernized guns, the Germans had to produce shells. For guns that did not undergo changes, a constant search for ammunition and spare parts was required!
      And the Germans had less and less time and energy for that!
      And the Germans themselves indicated in the reports that the guns left by the Soviet troops and the destroyed tanks were not assembled for several months. And in the end, often climbed back by Soviet troops who recaptured this territory back!
      Production of Pak 97/38 began in early 1942 and was discontinued in July 1943. Moreover, the last 160 guns were made on a gun carriage Pak 40 guns, they received the designation Pak 97/40. Compared to Pak 97/38, the new artillery system became heavier (1425 against 1270 kg), but the ballistic data remained the same. In just one and a half years of mass production, 3712 Pak 97/38 and Pak 97/40 were manufactured. They went into service with tank fighter divisions in infantry divisions and several others. As of March 1, 1945, the Wehrmacht still contained 122 Pak 97/38 and F. K.231 (f) guns, of which only 14 were at the front.
      In addition, a large number of ammunition for these artillery systems fell into German hands: in France alone there were more than 5,5 million pieces!

      The trophies taken by Europe were more significant.
  14. serg.shishkov2015
    serg.shishkov2015 2 December 2019 06: 20
    +2
    I have long been interested in the question - was the shipboard 45-mm 21-K used as a moving field gun? The question is not accidental - in Stepanov’s book * Port Arthur * there are episodes of such use of ship’s guns, Thank you in advance!
    1. Bongo
      2 December 2019 08: 35
      +3
      Quote: serg.shishkov2015
      I have long been interested in the question - was the shipboard 45-mm 21-K used as a moving field gun? The question is not accidental - in Stepanov’s book * Port Arthur * there are episodes of such use of ship’s guns, Thank you in advance!

      In the Russian-Japanese ship cannons on the shore, they were forced to use, for not having the best. During the years of the Second World War, 45 mm 21-K was also limitedly used in stationary positions on the stands Theoretically, they could be used in a mobile version on a wagon of a 37-mm anti-aircraft gun, or installed in a truck. Only there was no point in this. As an anti-aircraft gun, it was ineffective, and the mobility of such a mobile installation left much to be desired. In addition, she would have a very significant silhouette when placed on a firing position.
      1. Amurets
        Amurets 2 December 2019 14: 09
        +4
        Quote: Bongo
        During the Great Patriotic War, 45 mm 21-K was also limitedly used on pedestals on stationary

        In fact, the way it was. Such guns were used on the coast as anti-aircraft and anti-aircraft in coastal defense, but there was no sense from them either there or there. General Kabanov wrote that he was ready to exchange a division of 45-mm guns for a battery of 37-mm machine guns. There was more sense from machine guns.
  15. Pavel57
    Pavel57 15 December 2019 10: 52
    0
    Good article.
  16. Xomaik
    Xomaik 15 February 2020 10: 52
    0
    Yeah, the German army captured a lot of anti-tank guns