Military Review

Break to the saddle: on the strength of checkers by cavalrymen and Cossacks

160

Excellent blade ownership weapons - A visiting card of the Russian cavalry. But what were the art and strength of these blows?


I. Sagatsky wrote about the amazing blows inflicted by Russian cavalry with knives - both in peacetime and during the First World War. In this regard, he mentioned the 2 of a classic saber strike with the sword of the under-the-guard 12 Don Cossack Field-Marshal General of the High Prince Potemkin-Tauride Regiment Zemlyakova (Sagatsky I. Terrible strikes // Warfare. 1960. No. 44. C. 25).

He reported that, being a child at that time, he watched with curiosity and excitement the competitions in the wheelhouse of the lower ranks of the 11 Cavalry Division, which included the regiment. Competitions before the war took place in Radziwill. The number of competitors was gradually reduced until it was reduced to a duel of the last two candidates for the main prize - they were the chief officer of the 11 Uhlan Chuguevsky regiment and the aforementioned undermate Zemlyakov. Worthy opponents went flush, perfectly cutting down all the targets. The commission was in difficulty, not knowing whom to give the championship to.


Finally came the turn of an additional test. 2 brought the same, in a good fist thick, long clubs. Cudgels secured in the crosses. On the first club, by lot, they released a vahmistra-lancer. The latter dealt a very strong blow - at more than 2 / 3 depths. But the peculiar “vine”, even though its upper part a little stepped aside, remained standing. Then, on a full career, Zemlyakov went on his red-haired handsome man. The checker of a podgorun flashed ... The club remained standing as if nothing had happened - and those present were at a loss. “Missed,” said a Cossack standing next to an eyewitness. “Not so our undersunner. Wait a bit, ”the other said. And, indeed, the top of the club trembled - and, cut off by an unusually quick and powerful blow, its entire upper part slid down.

The son of the soldier of the cavalier of St. George’s weapons, Colonel I.V. Sagatsky, further reported that at the very height of the war in Galicia, his father, at that time the division commander of the 12 Don Cossack Regiment, had to attack the Hungarian cavalry, which had taken the attack, on horseback. The officer in the letter recalled this victorious cavalry battle, describing several terrible moments. Remaining in the “castle”, he found himself surrounded by several Hungarians - for a long time with despair, fighting off them alone. I.V. Sagatsky was preparing for death, when suddenly a gleam broke through, and then again - seeing the commander in danger, the aforementioned record holder podzorunzhy Zemlyakov rushed to his rescue. Having flown on the Hungarians, he began to chop them - and they all remained in place. The last Zemlyakov struck such a terrible blow that the Hungarian fell in two right in the saddle, being cut by an oblique blow - through the collarbone and shoulder to the side.

I.V. Sagatsky
Lieutenant Colonel A.V. Slivinsky, reproducing the details of the cavalry battle at Yaroslavice, recalled the checker hit by Lieutenant 10 of the Dragoon Regiment Kobelyatsky - the last compartment at the elbows both hands of the Austrian major, and then the saber dug into the gunter's neck (Slivinsky A. Equestrian battle of the 10th cavalry division of General Count Keller on 8 / 21 on August 1914 near the village of Yaroslavice. Serbia, 1921. C. 15).

Analyzing the draft strikes of Russian cavalrymen and Cossacks, he notes that they mainly occurred in the area of ​​the shoulders or in the head. Some of the blows were so strong that, like a watermelon cut in half, the head fell apart in the 2 part, and then, moving on, the weapon deeply dug into the victim's body. Austrian cavalry went to war in metal helmets and helmets. The latter, being extremely impractical in the campaign, proved to be useful in battle, saving many lives. Hitting the metal of the helmet or helmet normally, the saber sometimes cut them through (and then, although weakened, the blow hit the target), and sometimes the weapon glided over the iron - and then the blow either “disappeared” or the blade stuck into the neck or shoulder of the enemy (In the same place. C. 42 - 43.).

A. V. Slivinsky
The confrontation between the Russian and German cavalry ended similarly. So, 06. 09. 1914 was a "through" attack of the squadron of Nizhny Novgorod dragoons through the squadron of German Lancers. Counter horse attack began on a quarry, and turned into a slow creep of the two cavalry units met through each other. Russian dragoons, powerful punches easily cut through the German helmets, immediately prevailed. For example, a platoon non-commissioned officer by the name of Luft, with a powerful blow, not only cut a German helmet (with his head open), but when the saber slipped from the victim’s head, he cut the croup of the horse. If the Russian losses in this battle amounted to several people wounded, then the German ones - up to 70 killed and 12 wounded (captured).

The corresponding skills were honed during the years of the Civil War. True, in the fight against the wrong enemy.

So, an eyewitness recalled (Rykhlinsky V. “To the note“ terrible blows ”” // Military War. 1967. No. 47. C. 30.): “In the month of May of the 1920 of the year, before we left for Northern Tavria, by the will of fate, I turned out to be a junior officer of a machine-gun platoon, commander, who was Lieutenant De-Witt, a descendant of the glorious admiral, as I am a Kiev resident. I caught up with the division at Sivash himself and a new, fascinating head of my service began.

Break to the saddle: on the strength of checkers by cavalrymen and Cossacks

“Machine gunners forward!” The team and we, like the “Makhnovists”, are rushing on spring light carts harnessed by a troika and loaded with a heavy Maxim ... Rear, three or two hundred meters away - horsemen ... We were the first to enter the muddy water Sivasha on 25 on May 1920 of the year, carrying machine guns on boats, while walking chest-deep in water. To the right, armored trains thundered and the long-range guns of Kane hit. From that day marches and counter-marches began, endless attacks, skirmishes with red cavalry, days and nights in the saddle, in the fragrant steppes of Tavria ...

On the fifth day, I managed to fall asleep, curled up in a ball, on a large green chest, in a rich hut. About three hours, I was woken up. Anxiety ... In an instant I was on my cart, the second followed me and we rushed forward to Novo-Alekseyevka, where our headquarters was located.


And now, going to a position, in front of dismounted horsemen, on crumpled grass and wheat, we saw strange heaps of “something” ... These were the chopped-off bodies of soldiers of the Kalmyk regiment, who had sentry guard in front of Novo-Alekseyevka. They lay in the same underwear, in heaps of 10 - 20 people. Taken aback by the red cavalry, at about two in the morning, they were completely chopped down. One corpse struck me: it was cut in half, in the very middle, starting from the head to the waist. There was not a drop of blood and the dissected parts were similar to the anatomical models from the museum. Their color was pale pink and the lungs, heart and head with a brain that did not flow out were clearly visible in the section ... A little further, another corpse, his left side was cut off, half of his chest with his left shoulder and arm .. .. The same distinct anatomical incision and not a drop of blood ...

These were “instant” photographs that remained forever in my memory, as an example of what a Cossack checker can do. ”
Author:
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  1. Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 5 December 2019 05: 32
    +6
    In World War II, these skills were already auxiliary, the Soviet Cossacks took fire and maneuver.
    1. Alexander Suvorov
      Alexander Suvorov 5 December 2019 08: 42
      +12
      Vladimir_2U (Vladimir)
      In World War II, these skills were already auxiliary, the Soviet Cossacks took fire and maneuver.
      Even in the Second World War, saber attacks took place, although they were already an anachronism, but nonetheless.
      In general, the possession of melee weapons was always held in high esteem, take at least the same sapper blades. The Germans, in principle, were afraid of our bayonet attacks and close combat, they preferred to fight at the expense of technology and from far away, and they went to hand-to-hand combat extremely rarely and not willingly.
      But only let our people get to the close battle, especially the marines were famous for this, those Germans in general were afraid of fire.
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 5 December 2019 08: 51
        +3
        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
        Even in the Second World War, saber attacks took place, although they were already an anachronism

        I actually wrote about this, it wasn’t melee that the war was decided, although they were cruel.
        1. BARKAS
          BARKAS 5 December 2019 10: 21
          +2
          Once I was in the station of Kushchevskaya on the anniversary of the famous attack and heard the story of veterans of the participants in these events to cut off the infantry from the tanks there and used cavalry using saber attacks.
          1. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 5 December 2019 10: 27
            +3
            Cut off from advancing tanks? I can’t imagine. Counterattack and chase, it seems like the truth. Not a complaint, I'm not aware of the famous attack.
        2. Mikhail3
          Mikhail3 6 December 2019 13: 01
          +2
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          I actually wrote about this, it wasn’t melee that the war was decided, although they were cruel.

          Such comments are always striking. Apparently children who do not understand life, but for some reason this whole life is the standard of our time ... To think this way is to seriously consider that a person is the brain on some (anyway what) transport platform. No, dear, you are all wrong)
          First, about the Cossack saber. Awesome weapon! Fencing with it is basically unrealistic. Not intended. After watching numerous videos on the net, it is easy to see that "fencing" consists of eights with a loose hand. In a horse battle, one single blow decides everything, so no fencing is needed. Either you hit, cutting through the enemy's defenses, or you are killed, that's all. And the checker is heavy, has a far forward center of gravity. It seems to be a crowbar ...
          But no. Real possession of the checker requires the finest tuning of the entire skeletal muscles in order to convert all the movement energy available to you (including the movement of your horse) into a fast, unstoppable blow. That is, the possession of this type of edged weapon requires great courage (it’s not sitting in a shelter, death literally hugs you all the time) and magnificent, on the verge of art, possession of the body.
          Both factors are crucial for both personal victory and overall victory in the war. It’s just like with any other cooler - those people who know it well are likely to win. Let them use tanks and missiles in the attack, but still ...
          1. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 6 December 2019 13: 58
            +1
            Quote: Mikhail3
            Such comments are always striking.

            Somehow you are impressionable.
          2. cat Rusich
            cat Rusich 8 December 2019 20: 15
            +2
            "The checker should be LIGHT as a FEATHER, sharp as a razor, flexible as a vine. Whoever wears a HEAVY checker does not rely on skill." - Adyghe proverb. Checker - 300-350 grams weight, maybe 200-250 grams. The checker cuts with the speed and skill of the "cutter". Cuts with a weight - a sword.
            1. Mikhail3
              Mikhail3 9 December 2019 09: 36
              +1
              And cost like an airplane, right?) Right here all the Circassians got drafts from the village of Gurda. Wholesale. By weight. Metal of the right quality at an affordable price began to be made only in the 20th century. We will write your post to the eternal Caucasian show-offs.
            2. cat Rusich
              cat Rusich 9 December 2019 22: 34
              +1
              Let's remember P.P. Anosov and his bulat from the town of Zlatoust (after 1906 the secret was lost again). A quality blade has always been expensive, and damask is "worth its weight in gold." Mass blades are in service with ordinary soldiers of any army at all times - "consumer goods" "for one battle."
      2. tatarin1972
        tatarin1972 5 December 2019 11: 35
        +3
        You probably wanted to say infantry shoulder blade? Yes, in the marine corps and now they are taught to own MPL, though not all.
        1. Alexander Suvorov
          Alexander Suvorov 5 December 2019 11: 53
          +5
          tatarin1972 (Mihail Abrashitov)
          You probably wanted to say infantry shoulder blade?
          Of course, I understand that you want to show your erudition in this matter, but I know what it is called. Officially, it may be called MPL, but with us it has always been called a sapper!
          1. tatarin1972
            tatarin1972 5 December 2019 12: 03
            -1
            Well, you, notorious boors are sent to the north to serve, erudites usually serve in "sanatorium-resort" conditions.
          2. icant007
            icant007 6 December 2019 16: 40
            +2
            I'll try to judge you gentlemen. They explained to us in the first year of the military school that there is only a large sapper shovel, commonly known as BSL-110)
            But well-known in the common people small sapper blade - Its correct name is the Infantry Shovel (PL). Not to be confused with a submarine). Knowledge as of 1992.
            I do not pretend to be true, now perhaps something has changed.
      3. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 6 December 2019 02: 21
        +2
        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
        Even in the Second World War, saber attacks took place, although they were already an anachronism, but nonetheless.

        I think that the expression "saber attacks is an anachronism ..." Anachronism is when in horse ranks with sabers (sabers) "yes to tanks" or to fortified positions of an entrenched enemy, "stuffed" with MG-34/42 ... But what kind of "anachronism" is this, when the cavalry caught the enemy column by surprise on the march without tanks, armored personnel carriers, and even on foot?
        1. Pilat2009
          Pilat2009 6 December 2019 16: 44
          0
          Quote: Nikolaevich I
          But what kind of "anachronism" is this, when the cavalry took the enemy column by surprise on the march without tanks, armored personnel carriers, and even on foot?

          And what prevents the column from laying down and shooting back?
    2. Petrograd
      Petrograd 6 December 2019 00: 37
      +5
      Cossacks, they are different, let's be honest yes Vladimir? Some of them defended their homeland during the Great Patriotic War, someone (these freaks in the photo) went to serve the "great in the Wehrmacht"




      and with "pleasure he improved his skill" chopping off prisoners and civilians.
      1. Petrograd
        Petrograd 6 December 2019 00: 58
        +6
        or as



        just for reflection and knowledge about the "Cossacks" and how and whom they cut. Despite the bunch of awards (here they have already overtaken North Korea, which there are only "trinkets and shoulder straps and aiguillettes - on cheap military clothing - from the nearest store like" sports, hunting, fishing ") and there are (mostly) just punitive semi-formal They boast, but in the village of Psebay they gagged their mouths and the checkers were removed, they were silent when they killed Natalia with particular cruelty, how, there, "golden boys frolicked, sons of cones" and did not hear anything.
        ... As we were at the service "who gives gingerbread and glitter", they remained ...
      2. xax
        xax 6 December 2019 02: 24
        +2
        Quote: Petrograd
        Cossacks are different

        As well as the red commanders.
        I will not publish photos of the most famous traitor.

        Che wanted to say something?

        Quote: Petrograd
        e looking at a bunch of awards (here they overtook North Korea, there are no "trinkets

        No need to equal today's mummers with the Cossacks.

        My two great-grandfathers (on the same line) and 5 of their sons - all Cossacks and all died on the fronts of the Second World War, honestly doing their duty and protecting the land that you are now trampling.

        Be healthy.
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. arthropod
            arthropod 6 December 2019 12: 53
            +4
            Quote: Petrograd
            If everyone died like you then "appeared

            Your brain has long been drenched, right?
        2. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 6 December 2019 03: 23
          +8
          Current lapasniks are not Cossacks.
      3. napalm
        napalm 13 December 2019 18: 36
        0
        Nightmare, horror
    3. Ros 56
      Ros 56 23 February 2020 09: 45
      0
      I don’t know how and what, but at school our drawing teacher (cavalryman) told how they attacked the Germans, their heads flew like cabbage and machine guns did not help. According to him, it is both scary and terribly beautiful, a cavalry attack. By the way, a poorly built man, not tall, with glasses, would never have thought looking from the side that he was such a hero.
  2. Alexander Trebuntsev
    Alexander Trebuntsev 5 December 2019 06: 39
    +12
    There are many legends. Most likely, the terrible blows were inflicted with a non-standard saber. The standard Gorlovskaya checker was very heavy, not strong and with a slight bend. The Baklanov checkers were very good at chopping. But for the First World War they were made almost only by order. General Fyodorov's good work on drafts and its shortcomings.
    1. sen
      sen 5 December 2019 07: 04
      +8
      V.G. Fedorov, there are two articles on this topic: "The foundations of the device of edged weapons" and "On the issue of changing the currently adopted checkers."
    2. Alexander Suvorov
      Alexander Suvorov 5 December 2019 08: 48
      +12
      Alexander Trebuntsev (Alexander Trebuntsev)
      A lot of legends. Most likely, terrible blows were delivered not by a standard checker.
      Cossacks from childhood were taught to own ANY weapon. At the age of three, the boys were mounted on a horse; at the age of five, he was already studying horse-riding with training weapons. So what kind of a saber to chop on the drum.
      And one more thing, this is already from the words of my great-grandfather, who passed the civil war at Budenny, and so before a saber attack, the Cossacks never raised their arms or blades up and over their heads, as is often shown in films. On the contrary, the hand was below in order to pour blood so that the blow was as strong as possible.
  3. andrewkor
    andrewkor 5 December 2019 06: 40
    +4
    In Kuprin's "Duel", in an artistic form, the technique of such a chopping blow was described!
    1. Sentinel-vs
      Sentinel-vs 5 December 2019 06: 42
      +6
      Sholokhov in "Quiet Don" also has about this.
    2. novel66
      novel66 5 December 2019 07: 31
      +3
      as well as how not to chop ..
  4. riwas
    riwas 5 December 2019 06: 45
    +1
    Grandfather served in the Red Army. True, not of their own free will - they said, if you don't go, they will send you along with your family. So he himself saw how they hacked the Pole to the saddle. Budyonny liked to repeat: "cut to the saddle, and then he will fall apart himself."
    1. Alexander Suvorov
      Alexander Suvorov 5 December 2019 09: 01
      +4
      riwas
      Grandfather served in the Red Army. The truth is not of their own free will - they said that if you don’t go, they will send it with your family.
      Oh really? And where will they send it? To Kolyma?
      My great-grandfather was mobilized by force, but only white, and then thrown under the drafts of the First Horse to their fate. The officers all ran away, but simple Cossacks did not even show resistance. Most, including my great-grandfather, went over to the Reds voluntarily and served faithfully until the end of the Civil War.
      1. riwas
        riwas 5 December 2019 09: 42
        +1
        So they exiled. They came again and announced that they were taking the house (it was the largest in the village) under the "village council". There was no other free home, but there were two young children in my grandmother's arms, one of whom was nursing. My grandmother tried to object, arguing that my grandfather serves in the Red Army. But everything was in vain - the grandmother and the children were exiled to the Tomsk region. Grandfather, after returning from the army, did not find not only his family, but also his home, because soon after the grandmother was exiled, the drunken "authorities" started a fire and the house burned down.
        The second grandfather (from my mother's side) is the old Bolshevik. He fought in Central Asia. I was familiar with Frunze. He spoke badly about Voroshilov.
        1. Alexander Suvorov
          Alexander Suvorov 5 December 2019 09: 47
          +5
          iwas
          So they exiled. They came again and announced that they were taking the house (it was the largest in the village) under the "village council". There was no other free home, but there were two young children in my grandmother's arms, one of whom was nursing. My grandmother tried to object, arguing that my grandfather serves in the Red Army. But all is in vain - grandmother with children exiled to the Tomsk region.
          Well, let's say that I still believe the house was confiscated, but the fact that my grandmother and children exiled to the Tomsk region, I'm sorry, either you came up with, or one of two. Tomsk region at the time of the Civil War was near Kolchak and how could the Reds send anyone there ?!
          If you are not telling the truth, then at least do not lie so frankly!
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. riwas
            riwas 5 December 2019 10: 11
            0
            So exiled before Kolchak. Grandmother said that the retreating Kolchakites robbed and raped, but there were no Kolchakites in their village.
            1. Nagaibak
              Nagaibak 5 December 2019 10: 29
              +4
              riwas "So they exiled before Kolchak"
              From which province were exiled if not secret? It sounds very doubtful.
            2. Alexander Suvorov
              Alexander Suvorov 5 December 2019 10: 42
              +4
              riwas
              So exiled before Kolchak.
              Well, what are you telling tales? The mass formation of the Red Army units, including through forced mobilization, began in the spring of 1918, when there was no longer Soviet power in Tomsk.
              What do you sculpt humpback? The Soviet government confidently controlled at the beginning of 1918 only the central regions up to the Volga region, everything else was either white or anarchy. And who would be in the unlobery of the beginning of 1918 to whom he would refer? It was easier to shoot than to exile. They would have written that they took them hostage and, under the threat of execution, forced their families to serve in red. It looked at least less believable than the link.
              Although, if anyone was taken hostage, then only families of not reliable military experts, i.e. former tsarist officers, but not ordinary soldiers. For in order to take so many hostages and keep them in custody, no Red Army would be enough.
              So you're lying like Baron Munchausen ...
              1. Nagaibak
                Nagaibak 5 December 2019 11: 41
                +8
                Alexander Suvorov "So you are lying as Baron Munchausen ..."
                I think that he is not on purpose.))) Family legends are such a thing. Perhaps someone confused something.)))) Let's say the family legend about exile and dispossession in the 30s with the civil war. Of course, if "Rivas" stupidly did not lie.))) Otherwise, I agree with you. Links in the 18-19th years during the civil war are strong.))) Even powerful.))) I don't know who has enough imagination for this. Well, except that at Olgovich's. wink
              2. riwas
                riwas 5 December 2019 11: 46
                +2
                Well, of course, my parents lied to me, and my grandparents lied to me. He was small with his parents in the village of exile, and there the old-timers lied.
                1. sen
                  sen 5 December 2019 11: 58
                  +2
                  Judging by the story, they were exiled before the Civil War, during the formation of Soviet power. It was so. Otherwise, they simply would not have gotten off with a settlement.
                  1. Alexander Suvorov
                    Alexander Suvorov 5 December 2019 12: 20
                    -2
                    sen (sen)
                    Judging by the story, they were exiled before the Civil War, during the formation of Soviet power.
                    No docking is obtained. The civil war began almost immediately after the October Revolution. Mass mobilization in the Red Army is the spring-summer of 1918, and at that time the Soviet government did not smell in Tobolsk. So the Reds could not send his family, as he writes. And this means that either his relatives lied, or he himself lies as I don’t know who!
                    1. sen
                      sen 5 December 2019 13: 26
                      +4
                      What is the mass mobilization? Here specifically it was necessary to repulse the house under the village council of the just created.
                      1. Hantengri
                        Hantengri 5 December 2019 19: 47
                        +2
                        Quote: sen

                        What is the mass mobilization? Here specifically it was necessary to repulse the house under the village council of the just created.

                        And the "newly created village council" sent the poor fellows to the Tobolsk province, so that they could have a house ... Nothing in this "scheme" worries you? Nothing at all? lol
                      2. sen
                        sen 6 December 2019 06: 32
                        +3
                        So time was different, People were different. And their logic was different.
                      3. Hantengri
                        Hantengri 6 December 2019 09: 04
                        -2
                        Let's try again. 1918 is far from 1931. The village council is not the OGPU, and even the Cheka of that time, according to the possibilities, is far from the OGPU ... Do you still not see any inconsistencies in your "scheme"?
                      4. sen
                        sen 6 December 2019 12: 01
                        +3
                        No. No patterns. Then everything happened.
                      5. Hantengri
                        Hantengri 6 December 2019 12: 21
                        0
                        That is, in your opinion, in 1918 some kind of battered village council or commander had the powers of a court and, most importantly, the resources of the OGPU in the early 30s, to first sentence the family to deportation to the Tobolsk province, and then to provide transportation under guard (will they suddenly run away?) to the place of exile, and then monitor the stay in the indicated place (suddenly they will run away back)? wassat
                      6. riwas
                        riwas 7 December 2019 05: 59
                        +1
                        Settled, used to. But the exiles of the 30s built a highway instead of a settlement. Not fulfilled the norm - you will not get food that was shared with the children. We went to Kerzhaks to change things for food. Someone gave food so, someone changed, and someone killed for things. So they tried to run.
                      7. Sling cutter
                        Sling cutter 7 December 2019 06: 16
                        0
                        Quote: riwas
                        They settled down, got used to it But exiled 30s built a highway instead of a settlement. Not fulfilled the norm - you will not get food that was shared with the children. We went to Kerzhaks to change things for food. Someone gave food so, someone changed, and someone killed for things. So they tried to run.

                        I agree with you, I have a grandfather of 1913, told how his grandmother of 1965 was taken for 3 Stalin’s spikelets to mean, well, they hung up, then grandfather and great-grandmother were sent to Siberia, some to Volgodon, and others to Belomor - Etont, pooh yago, disgusting, Uritskago factory, shaved, raped and immediately shot there, put down a stone, well, that’s how they drove everyone to take Berlin, and then, damn it, they shot again, after that they rehabilitated and the bastards ... were shot. ...
                        Tell me what to do in Washington?
        2. Petrograd
          Petrograd 6 December 2019 01: 20
          0
          Quote: riwas
          So they exiled. They came again and announced that they were taking the house (it was the largest in the village) under the "village council". There was no other free home, but there were two young children in my grandmother's arms, one of whom was nursing. My grandmother tried to object, arguing that my grandfather serves in the Red Army. But everything was in vain - the grandmother and the children were exiled to the Tomsk region. Grandfather, after returning from the army, did not find not only his family, but also his home, because soon after the grandmother was exiled, the drunken "authorities" started a fire and the house burned down.
          The second grandfather (from my mother's side) is the old Bolshevik. He fought in Central Asia. I was familiar with Frunze. He spoke badly about Voroshilov.

          Damn, read-ready script for Bollywood, for your riwas, history of popcorn and a "sheet" for tears and snot-attached?
          Without sarcasm, from your story.
          1. riwas
            riwas 6 December 2019 06: 37
            +2
            Seriously? And how do you like this story?
            My father got into the war, not at the beginning of it, but in 1944. "Training" was in Barnaul. Its command and training staff consisted of former camp guards. Knowing that the conscripts were the children of exiles, they behaved as they were accustomed to, in particular, they appropriated their allowance, including food. By the end of the "training" conscripts were skeletons covered with leather. Then they were taken by train to the front. The attendants were all the same from the "training". We drove slowly with big stops. Hunger is not an aunt, who could go "hunting" in the nearby fields. For a long time, my father's neighbor could not make up his mind - his conscience did not allow him to steal. But when he made up his mind, he was caught with two small beets. It was easy to do this, since he could hardly move. They hung these beets around his neck and shot them in front of the train. But the "mood" at the front was different. When they reached their destination, all the survivors were sent to the hospital, and the accompanying people were shot.
            1. Hantengri
              Hantengri 6 December 2019 12: 41
              -1
              Quote: riwas
              Its command staff consisted of former camp guards. They, knowing that the recruits were children of the exiles, behaved as they were used to, in particular, appropriated their contentment, including food.

              Were all the recruits children of exiles? Here, right, without exception? Children of exiles, in your opinion, are some special stratum of citizens affected by their rights, something like "almost ZK"? You have, right, fairy tale after fairy tale and all anti-Soviet!
              1. riwas
                riwas 7 December 2019 05: 51
                +1
                There was a specific batch of draftees from a particular locality. It does not seem real now.
    2. Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
      Aristarkh Lyudvigovich 5 December 2019 12: 24
      +4
      Quote: riwas
      So he himself saw how the Pole was cut to the saddle.

      Theoretically, if the saber is accelerated to such a high speed that kinetic energy is enough to halve a person, then everything will turn out fellow But in general, human bones are strong enough. Splitting 12 ribs at 2 points, the clavicle, the ilium and the pubic bone with one stroke is unrealistic, even with the strongest hand, even with two. Once I came across this explanation "from shoulder to saddle": the blow does not break the enemy in two at all. From the shoulder to the saddle, a superficial wound 1-3 cm deep is inflicted. That's all. Such a wound cannot be squeezed with a hand, and from loss of blood from an extensive wound, a person will not become within a few minutes.
      1. sen
        sen 5 December 2019 13: 31
        +3
        Should I slant diagonally?
      2. neri73-r
        neri73-r 5 December 2019 14: 23
        +8
        You know, maybe not in the subject, but I’ll write how I learned that the body is so vulnerable. I was 13-14 years old and the first time I myself pricked a pig. Clearly, the elders held, my task was only to stab, stabbed with a German bayonet with a knife, unlike ours, flat and equally long. I was very surprised that I felt resistance to the bayonet only when the bayonet pierced the skin, then it seemed to fall into the void, as I cut the heart did not even feel. Therefore, I won’t be surprised that with a certain technique you can halve a person without a problem.
        1. beeper
          beeper 5 December 2019 15: 02
          +5
          hi Professional chopping blow "with pull".
          By the way, the "gentry" Polish "zholnezhs", during and after the Polish-Soviet war, enthusiastically trained on the already unarmed prisoners of the Red Army, competing among themselves who, with one blow, "completely halves" a motionless person is one of their favorite pastimes "This" arrogant gentry "had (although not the most painful of them, then they" practiced "and more perversely extrajudicial, for Polish entertainment, the murder of our captive compatriots) .... then, in 1939, the convicted Polish fanatics-sadists were perplexed" but what about us? request
          1. Oleg Zorin
            Oleg Zorin 9 December 2019 16: 21
            0
            For having pinned up near Warsaw, no?
            1. beeper
              beeper 9 December 2019 17: 41
              0
              It’s you, Oleg Zorin, look from the wrong end — AT THE FIRST TIME, POLISH AGGRESSORS BAD IN KIEV AND MINSK, and only then, under the retaliatory strike of the Red Army, they rolled the sausage right up to Warsaw ...
              In those events, it is full of all the nuances and intricacies of political intrigue, including from the side of V. Britain and France, who supported the Polish revenge-seekers ....
              1. Oleg Zorin
                Oleg Zorin 10 December 2019 01: 41
                +1
                Disable Kapslok, otherwise I'm nervous for you.
                1. beeper
                  beeper 10 December 2019 02: 19
                  0
                  hi Thank you for your sincerity, Oleg, really appreciate! good Don't worry so much about me - I'm fine, it's just my bad habit of "bringing up" the "main thought" in the text that made you nervous.
                  Forgive me magnanimously, I didn’t casually "knock my hand down" ... but from now on I will take into account your fine mental organization and "kaplokom" with you, no, no, I promise! yes
                  1. Oleg Zorin
                    Oleg Zorin 11 December 2019 11: 31
                    +1
                    Thank! I knew you were a good person. I wrote something for something: there was not much love between the parties. Especially among the Poles, you yourself understand for what reasons. But this is not an excuse. Hacking prisoners is definitely a crime. It concerns everyone.
        2. evgic
          evgic 5 December 2019 20: 35
          +8
          As a man who has butchered more than one carcass, I’ll say that theoretically you can ruin a person to the saddle if three conditions are met:
          -the availability of the appropriate tool
          - the presence of an individual unmeasured physical strength
          -the presence of this person's excellent skills in tool ownership
          I personally managed to cut 8 out of 14 ribs with an ax on a suspended pig carcass, although I am not the deadest person. People have fewer ribs, and they themselves are thinner, plus the front part is attached to the cartilage, so that is possible in principle. But the instrument should be at its best, such a trick would not work out with an ordinary checker, and naturally, we must be able to, and also how to be able.
          1. Paul
            Paul 6 December 2019 10: 37
            +2
            I have no experience cutting. But it’s interesting how do you think if you would be put on a horse with your blow and at least 20 km / h at a speed you could break in half? Why did I ask - sometimes accident victims, even at low speed, get such injuries that terribly covers.
        3. Petrograd
          Petrograd 6 December 2019 02: 09
          0
          Sorry for the pig, maybe it's easier, he stunned him on the head, cut his throat to "bleed" and "burn" with a blowtorch and cut him up. Why such difficulties - stabbing with a German bayonet and in the heart, it’s a dreary long time, and it’s "shit" while you "cut your heart" there.
          1. neri73-r
            neri73-r 6 December 2019 08: 01
            +1
            Easier from a gun in the ear and bleed. fellow
          2. neri73-r
            neri73-r 6 December 2019 08: 08
            +1
            Quote: Petrograd
            Sorry for the pig, maybe it's easier, he stunned him on the head, cut his throat to "bleed" and "burn" with a blowtorch and cut him up. Why such difficulties - stabbing with a German bayonet and in the heart, it’s a dreary long time, and it’s "shit" while you "cut your heart" there.

            Second thing, they tied a rope by the leg, pulled it, turned it over and stabbed it, blew the blood.
  5. The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 5 December 2019 08: 10
    +3
    Hmm ... Creepy in its accuracy, details ...
    1. igordok
      igordok 5 December 2019 09: 31
      +6
      About the helmets. Protective helmets were originally leather. It is still possible to cut them. And with the advent of steel - alas.
    2. dmmyak40
      dmmyak40 5 December 2019 16: 29
      +4
      During the Anglo-Boer War, the British practiced such a "fun" game - "kill the pig." Lancers of one team had to drive the unarmed drill behind a certain line with lances. And the other command is to prevent this from happening.
      Humanists ...
  6. Zeev Zeev
    Zeev Zeev 5 December 2019 08: 29
    +4
    After reading another article about 20th-century supermen with checkers chopping the enemy to the saddle, I personally remember the unforgettable lines of Healer Bellock:
    Whatever happens, we have got
    The Maxim gun, and they have not.
    So that does not happen, we have the answer:
    We have Maxim, they don't have it.

    Times of dashing cavalry attacks ended with the advent of trenches, machine guns, and barbed wire. And those who did not understand this paid cruelly for their naivety. Although they were great masters of dressage, cutting and other cavalry disciplines.
    1. RUSS
      RUSS 5 December 2019 09: 07
      +2
      Quote: Zeev Zeev
      Times of dashing cavalry attacks ended with the advent of trenches, machine guns, and barbed wire. And those who did not understand it paid cruelly for their naivety

      But there were exceptions, for example an episode in the Second World War, namely the Kushchevskaya attack on August 2, 1942
      1. Zeev Zeev
        Zeev Zeev 5 December 2019 09: 50
        +4
        There was also an attack near Izbushensky farm on August 24, 1942, when Italian cavalrymen in a dashing saber attack defeated two battalions of the 812th Infantry Regiment, capturing up to 600 prisoners, 10 machine guns and four regimental guns. But this is a separate episode in which the cavalry was able to take fortified positions due to the fact that the Soviet troops went on the attack and machine gunners from the trenches could not shoot.
        Two years later, under the columns of ONE, a German machine gunner kept Pliev's cavalrymen until tanks arrived. Eyewitnesses told me that the field in front of his position was littered with the corpses of soldiers and horses. Even if we divide these stories by the limitation of events and popular exaggeration, the result for cavalrymen is still disappointing.
        1. Alexander Suvorov
          Alexander Suvorov 5 December 2019 10: 06
          +1
          Zeev Zeev (Zeev Zeev)
          Eyewitnesses told me that the field in front of his position was littered with the corpses of soldiers and horses.
          Here are direct "eyewitnesses" and PERSONALLY told you ...?! laughing
          1. Zeev Zeev
            Zeev Zeev 5 December 2019 10: 28
            +7
            Yes, it is for me and precisely the eyewitnesses. Residents of the village of New Sverzhen, in 1944, were children. Just a conversation went behind a glass
        2. hohol95
          hohol95 5 December 2019 16: 52
          0
          The Italians were helped by the mistakes of the regiment commander Merkulov!
          1. Zeev Zeev
            Zeev Zeev 5 December 2019 16: 59
            0
            Of course, the mistakes of the commander of the Italian cavalry helped. In the same way as in any battle, the mistakes of the enemy help to defeat him. If the commander were more competent, he would sit on the defensive, holding the bridgehead until reinforcements arrived.
            1. hohol95
              hohol95 6 December 2019 08: 00
              0
              And the old woman is a bummer ...
    2. haron
      haron 5 December 2019 09: 18
      +4
      Quote: Zeev Zeev
      Times of dashing cavalry attacks ended with the advent of trenches, machine guns, and barbed wire. And those who did not understand this paid cruelly for their naivety. Although they were great masters of dressage, cutting and other cavalry disciplines.

      This is logical and true when there is a solid front line, as in World War I in the west. And if there is no front line? Like a civilian. There were Maxims, and 1 konarmiya, and Chervonets, everything was, when there was no line.
      1. Zeev Zeev
        Zeev Zeev 5 December 2019 09: 54
        +6
        And if there is no front line, then it turns out the attack of the Polish cavalry near Kroyants, when a couple of German armored cars a third of the lancers regiment mowed.
        1. haron
          haron 5 December 2019 10: 02
          +3
          Quote: Zeev Zeev
          when a couple of German armored cars a third of the Lancers regiment mowed down.

          "I lost one ball and broke the other", or "Make the fool pray to God, so he will break his forehead." The article and comments provide examples of the correct use of XO when there were many machine guns.
          1. Zeev Zeev
            Zeev Zeev 5 December 2019 10: 30
            0
            These are isolated cases. Exceptions confirming the rule.
    3. Adjutant
      Adjutant 5 December 2019 13: 11
      +4
      Zeev Zeev (Zeev Zeev)
      Times of dashing cavalry attacks ended with the advent of trenches, machine guns, and barbed wire.

      As history shows, no.
      An example of this is the victorious equestrian attacks in 1914-17. and on the trenches, and on the barbed wire and on machine guns.
      1. Zeev Zeev
        Zeev Zeev 5 December 2019 14: 01
        +1
        Could you elaborate on such attacks?
        1. Adjutant
          Adjutant 5 December 2019 14: 17
          +3
          A whole bunch of articles on VO came out.
          Or do not watch?
          Or retell in article comments?
          1. Adjutant
            Adjutant 5 December 2019 14: 18
            +4
            Ali throw links? So they will punish you)
          2. Zeev Zeev
            Zeev Zeev 5 December 2019 15: 37
            -3
            You can just give a couple of examples. Next google
            1. Adjutant
              Adjutant 5 December 2019 18: 35
              +6
              Well then for the sake of example, type - Belarusian attack. 16 year, situation of positional warfare (though temporarily taking maneuvering forms during the offensive of the Southwestern Front). The advancing Hungarian infantry is defeated. Machine guns taken.
              Or.
              Immortal Oleszyce. 15 year, the advancing German infantry was defeated. Machine guns taken.
              Volchetsky trophy. German batteries taken. In the midst of a breakthrough in the positional front.
              For example, in August of the 16th Cossacks 16 and 17 of the DKP, barbed wire, artillery fire, and airplane bombs did not stop. Trophies taken.
              I can go on.
              1. Zeev Zeev
                Zeev Zeev 5 December 2019 21: 13
                -1
                Coming, advancing, after breaking through the front.
                1. Albatroz
                  Albatroz 5 December 2019 21: 32
                  +6
                  Kostyukhnovka - defending against the cavalry, which entered the breakthrough of the front.
                  Rudka Worm - defending in position, cavalry attacked.
                  As with Balamutovka - Rzhavantsy.
                  So not only against the advancing infantry)
                  But also against the defenders
            2. Nagaibak
              Nagaibak 5 December 2019 20: 18
              +3
              Zeev Zeev "You can just give a couple of examples. Next Google"
              From the article on this site "So, A. A. Kersnovsky highlights the defeat inflicted by the Russian cavalry of the Austro-Hungarian 7th Army at Rzhaventsev-Gorodenki on April 28, 1915, the attack at Neradov on July 3, 1915, Niva Zlochevskaya 19 June 1916, etc. (Kersnovsky A.A. History of the Russian Army. T. 4. M., 1994. S. 219.) In the course of about 400 horse attacks, 170 enemy guns were captured, a mass of prisoners, the most important combat tasks.
              I. F. Rubets briefly describes about 250 of the most successful horse attacks that took place on the Russian front of the First World War (see Rubets I. F. Equestrian attacks of the Russian imperial cavalry in the First World War // Military Story - 1964. No. 68. C . 15 - 18; 1965. No. 76. S. 43-47; 1966. No. 77. S. 8-10 .; 1966. No. 81. S. 15-19.).
    4. riwas
      riwas 8 December 2019 04: 43
      +1
      In 1942, in the rear of the Germans, our cavalry corps, which was introduced to break through the front, successfully operated.
  7. Olgovich
    Olgovich 5 December 2019 09: 18
    -13
    The last Zemlyakov struck such a terrible blow that the Hungarian fell in two right in the saddle, being cut by an oblique blow - through the collarbone and shoulder to the side.

    This is power!
    These were the chopped-off bodies of the soldiers of the Kalmyk regiment, who had guard watch in front of Novo-Alekseevka. They lay in single linen

    Training on prisoners is another thing, not like in battle.

    А in battle , in the spring of 1920, the Latvian Red Mercenaries were driven away from Perekop and notably cut by the Cossacks in the steppe into cabbage.
    1. Zeev Zeev
      Zeev Zeev 5 December 2019 10: 08
      +3
      Well, it depends a lot on who opposes the cavalry. If the Latvian Cossacks were not against the same Cossacks, but the Makhnovists or Poles, the result could have been completely different.
    2. Alexander Suvorov
      Alexander Suvorov 5 December 2019 10: 13
      +2
      Olgovich (Andrey)
      These were the chopped-off bodies of the soldiers of the Kalmyk regiment, who had guard watch in front of Novo-Alekseevka. They lay in the same underwear

      Training on prisoners is another thing, not like in battle.
      Where did you see that they were prisoners? If they were in the same underwear, this does not mean that they were "prisoners". If the regiment was guarded, then these grief warriors most likely got drunk on the moonshine before they fell through and slept through the attack, so they jumped out in one underwear under a saber strike.
      And in the battle, in the spring of 1920, the Latvian red-hired mercenaries were driven away from Perekop and notably cut by the Cossacks into the steppe into cabbage.
      And how did this ultimately help yours? They fled from Perekop, only the bare heels sparkled, the soldiers were unfinished.
      At least the Reds had Latvians, and your whites had all the international rabble from the British to the Japanese!
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 5 December 2019 11: 15
        -11
        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
        If they were in the same underwear, this does not mean that they were "prisoners". If the regiment was guarded,

        Well, yes, guarded, in linen fool
        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
        And how did this ultimately help yours? They fled from Perekop, only the bare heels sparkled, the soldiers were unfinished.

        Finished-look at State Banner of White RUSSIA over the Kremlin and the country.
        Even ... no heels left .... lol
        1. Alexander Suvorov
          Alexander Suvorov 5 December 2019 11: 33
          +2
          Olgovich (Andrey)
          Finished-look at the State Banner of white RUSSIA over the Kremlin and the Country.
          You are pregnant, this is temporary, this is temporary ... laughing laughing laughing
          We may have lost the battle, only the war is not over yet, so let’s see whose flag eventually remains over the Kremlin!
          1. Nagaibak
            Nagaibak 5 December 2019 11: 46
            +8
            Alexander Suvorov "We may have lost the fight."
            He thinks that we have the carriers of the white idea in power. laughing This is normal. The stars are red over the Kremlin, the music of the Soviet anthem under which this room white guard stands up and does not fade. wink So let him dream. laughing
            1. Alexander Suvorov
              Alexander Suvorov 5 December 2019 12: 27
              +2
              Nagaybak (Andrey)
              Alexander Suvorov "We may have lost the fight."
              He thinks that we have the carriers of the white idea in power.
              Well yes! He doesn’t have everything with his brains, everything is on one’s side.
              He drowns for the tsar-incompetent king, but denies the fact that the tsar was overthrown by his own circle. Immediately drowns for the mythical CSS, and how this relates to the overthrow of the king, it is not clear. It is clear that the main thing is to carry any of the most delusional and not utter nonsense, if only to throw a little more on the fan, and most importantly, against the Soviet regime.
              I tell you, quietly slate rustling shiza mows the ranks of crystal bakers. What is in their head alone God and psychiatrists know!
              1. Alexander Trebuntsev
                Alexander Trebuntsev 5 December 2019 12: 39
                +1
                After the collapse of the Soviet Union, a lot of "whites" appeared. Only these are not the whites who fought to the death then, but the liberal cowardly huskies, incapable of anything. For the most part, office plankton, at most capable of some kind of war-reconstruction game.
            2. Olgovich
              Olgovich 5 December 2019 12: 32
              -11
              Quote: Nagaibak
              He thinks that we have the carriers of the white idea in power

              Nope, "red" laughing
              Quote: Nagaibak
              Red stars over the Kremlin

              There are far from only them: Towers 20stars already .... 5 request .
              proudly flies over Red Square Double-headed Eagle and Orthodox CROSSES.
              Quote: Nagaibak
              the music of the Soviet anthem to which this room white guard stands up and does not growl.

              But what about THIS:
              Russia is our sacred power,
              Russia is our favorite country.
              Mighty will, great glory -
              Your wealth for all time!
              don't get up? With pleasure!yes

              This is not
              And Lenin gave us a great path:
              We were raised by Stalin - on fidelity to the people,
          2. Olgovich
            Olgovich 5 December 2019 11: 48
            -11
            Quote: Alexander Suvorov
            You are pregnant, this is temporary, this is temporary ...

            brother of A. Makedonsky and Buonopartia in misfortune-A ..... "Suvorov" ..... request
            Quote: Alexander Suvorov
            We may have lost the battle, only the war is not over yet, so what else seewhose flag is in!

            How are you with These- looks like:
            Today tomorrow not everyone can watch. Rather, not only everyone can watch. Few can do this.
            lol laughing
          3. Zeev Zeev
            Zeev Zeev 5 December 2019 14: 09
            -9
            Gentlemen, comrades, let’s hang some neutral flag over your Kremlin? I offer bel-chyrvona-bely.
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 6 December 2019 12: 17
              -3
              Quote: Zeev Zeev
              Gentlemen, comrades, let’s hang some neutral flag over your Kremlin? I offer bel-chyrvona-bel

              What kind of beast is this? What fright? belay
              Yes and no such flags ....
              1. Zeev Zeev
                Zeev Zeev 6 December 2019 13: 52
                -1
                Flag of Belarus. White-red-white.
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 6 December 2019 14: 17
                  -3
                  Quote: Zeev Zeev
                  Flag of Belarus. White-red-white.

                  I’m talking about him: NO such
                  1. Zeev Zeev
                    Zeev Zeev 6 December 2019 16: 16
                    -3
                    There is. And the language, and the flag, and the coat of arms "Pagonya".
                    1. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 7 December 2019 07: 27
                      -1
                      Quote: Zeev Zeev
                      Is. flag and coat of arms "Pagonya".

                      With this you- to Napoleon. Or Alexander the Great. hi
        2. evgic
          evgic 5 December 2019 15: 42
          +1
          Where is your white Russia eccentric? Modern RF is 80% red, and only blushes over time.
      2. Adjutant
        Adjutant 5 December 2019 13: 12
        +8
        In the Civil War, it was simply customary to strip to linen.
        Both prisoners and the dead.
        By both parties
        1. beeper
          beeper 5 December 2019 15: 14
          +5
          hi And not only in the Civil War it was "accepted", although it happened in different ways.
      3. Oleg Zorin
        Oleg Zorin 9 December 2019 16: 26
        0
        And for me, sir, both white and red - OWN.
  8. Glory1974
    Glory1974 5 December 2019 10: 31
    +1
    Austro-Hungarian cavalry was forbidden to engage in battle with the Cossacks, only as a last resort or with a numerical superiority of 10 to 1.
    So, they probably differed not only in the strength of a draft strike, but also in reticence, tactics, possession of spades and other weapons.
    1. Alexander Trebuntsev
      Alexander Trebuntsev 5 December 2019 12: 35
      +2
      In the first Russian-Japanese war we lost, the situation was similar with the Japanese. They, as a rule, did not accept cutting.
    2. Adjutant
      Adjutant 5 December 2019 13: 12
      +7
      probably they differed not only in the strength of a checker strike, but also in reticence, tactics, possession of spades and other weapons.

      Exactly
  9. Ryazan87
    Ryazan87 5 December 2019 13: 31
    +4
    In the part of the description of strokes with a checker:
    "... A group of Cossack officers was talking next to me. Young was surprised.
    - Why are there no beheaded among the dead? Is it possible to cut off the head with one blow? You see sometimes beautiful blows: the skull was slanted obliquely, but I did not see the severed heads.
    The senior officer explained:
    - To chop off your head, you don’t need to hit too hard. This is a matter of position, not strength.. You need to be at the same level and cut with a horizontal blow.
    If the mounted opponent bends, and he always bends, then a horizontal strike is impossible. We are chopping up infantry from top to bottom ... Oh, sorry, if I had a chance, I would have shown how they chopped off their heads.
    In one of the previous battles, we captured the commissar ...
    I still did not believe in the fulfillment of the plan. But the elderly went behind the commissioner and with a dry horizontal blow, cut off his head, which rolled onto the grass. The body stood for a split second, then collapsed.
    I made a mistake. It would be necessary to observe what is being done with the head, and I was attracted to his neck. She was fat, probably 42, and suddenly fell into a fist, and her throat popped out and black blood poured.
    I began to feel sick, and I hastened to leave. All this happened without any malice, just as a demonstration of a good blow.
    “This is what,” said the elderly. - Here, to cut a person from shoulder to lower back, you need strength.
    He wiped the saber on the commissar's uniform. Human life was valued inexpensively. "

    Mamontov SI "Campaigns and Horses" - one of the best memoirs of an ordinary participant in the Civil War (the author served in the 1st General of the Drozdovsky Horse-Mountain Battery).
    1. phair
      phair 5 December 2019 14: 26
      +1
      I have not seen this (Pigolkin- I was the head of the department (who understands)) Lentchik, bring!
      1. Ryazan87
        Ryazan87 5 December 2019 15: 14
        0
        For me, I remember, the surprise was how long a person has a tongue. Well, the manner of pulling the skin from the skull onto the face upon opening.
        1. Oleg Zorin
          Oleg Zorin 9 December 2019 16: 30
          0
          Otherwise, do not cut the arch of the skull.
    2. Alexander Suvorov
      Alexander Suvorov 5 December 2019 14: 27
      -7
      Ryazanets87 (Nikita)
      In one of the previous battles, we captured the commissar ...
      I still did not believe in the fulfillment of the plan. But an elderly man went behind the commissar and, with a dry horizontal blow, cut off his head, which rolled onto the grass.
      An excellent illustration of the "nobility" of whites, and most importantly of the rule of law, about which the crushers here yell, about the courts, investigations and other rubbish.
      Just like that, in passing, in order to "show off with valor" in front of an inexperienced person, to take and take off a man's head, this is certainly the top of "valor and nobility", isn't it gentlemen of the baker?
      And there is no need to shout here about the "Red Terror", for such an attitude, all the whites had to be cut out at the root, and without trial or investigation. And this is not all the atrocities committed by the whites, one can recall what the Kolchakites did, and what the White Czechs and other interventionists did is beyond description, nothing better than the Hitlerites, the white-bellied cattle.
      1. phair
        phair 5 December 2019 14: 32
        +5
        It’s difficult to fight in a civilian. And to judge? I will not take it.
        1. Ryazan87
          Ryazan87 5 December 2019 15: 19
          +5
          Quite a common occurrence at that time: prisoners of war were often killed, especially "ideological" opponents. And the degree of general brutality (the events in the above passage take place in 1920) has reached a peak. Read the previous commentator: he is torn to cut even after 100 years ..
      2. Adjutant
        Adjutant 5 December 2019 15: 12
        +6
        The Reds acted absolutely the same.
        And even larger.
        This is so, by the way.
        This is about SEPARATE EXCESSES, that is, murders characteristic of any war.
        The Red Terror is a state policy aimed at the destruction of entire social groups.
        And to confuse excesses (killings of individuals) with terror as a targeted state policy is at least incorrect
        1. Adjutant
          Adjutant 5 December 2019 15: 20
          +11
          In terms of excesses. A couple of words.
          You can recall how the Reds (since we are comparing the Reds and the Whites) cut down the captive Colonel Chernetsov and his subordinates. From a hundred there was no one left. Prisoners, unarmed chopped down by checkers.
          The episode was reproduced in "Quiet Don" and became the basis for the future execution of those guilty of this atrocity, Podtyolkov and his people.
          The terrible thing is Civil War.
          1. phair
            phair 5 December 2019 15: 36
            +5
            White yourself, about the chieftain Annenkov know? I just had a mother-in-law in Xinjiang born. She told a lot ....
            1. Sugar Honeyovich
              Sugar Honeyovich 5 December 2019 18: 33
              0
              And what did she say? Share the material! For the story!
              1. phair
                phair 6 December 2019 02: 01
                +5
                When retreating from the Seven Rivers, part of the Cossacks decided to return (6-7 thousand). They were killed, women squeezed. Annenkov was shot in Novosibirsk by the emnip in 1928.
          2. Ryazan87
            Ryazan87 5 December 2019 15: 38
            +6
            I recently read here a very interesting diary of the Drozdov artilleryman Georgy Orlov: you can clearly see how the categories of "hatred" stood out among whites:
            - Latvians and Chinese were shot unconditionally (even from the words of the author it is clear what anger they caused);
            - sailors most often too;
            - commissioners unconditionally;
            - Former officers, paints strongly in the situation (right now it’s really how lucky).
            The bulk of the prisoners from among those mobilized were either put into operation (white in 1920 for good 2/3 former Red Army prisoners) or just a kick in the ass. Many ordinary soldiers (especially from among the former RIA soldiers) changed the army 3-4 times during the civil war.
          3. Nagaibak
            Nagaibak 5 December 2019 15: 55
            +9
            Adjutant "A terrible thing Civil war."
            Here, some do not understand this. From the word in general. All fell on the reds. And this is not normal. All were good then. The same Mamontov is full of memories of such scenes. They just tell us what red ghouls and white with angel wings. I do not accept this view of those events. And how, for example, to justify Annenkov, whose henchmen raped and chopped the Orenburg Cossacks from the Dutov detachment with sabers. One girl’s hand was chopped off but she managed to run to her Orenburgers. What could ordinary peasants be expected from such freaks? If they did not spare their own?
            “The families of some officers marched with the detachment to the border, such as the family of the honored Orenburg resident Colonel Lugovskys, which consisted of three daughters, an elderly wife, the wife of Esaul Martemyanov and, among others, the wife and 12-year-old daughter of Vakhmister Petrov-Orenburg. ordered to evacuate to China, and immediately gave the order to the 1st hundred of the Ataman regiment, centurion Vasiliev to give all the women at the disposal of the partisans and Kirghiz, and kill the men. his hundreds, where there were already fans of violence: Colonel Sergeev - the head of the garrison of Sergiopol, Shulga, Ganaga, etc. The women who arrived were undressed, and they passed into drunken company from hand to hand, and after that they were chopped off in the most incredible poses. get out already raped with a severed hand of the sergeant's daughter, who ran to the detachment and told everything. " I gave this as an example.
            1. Adjutant
              Adjutant 5 December 2019 18: 26
              +5
              Can you idealize the reds?
              Scenes similar to those described - and from their side a wagon and a small cart. If not more.
              And also they did not capture whole categories, tortured and killed.
              Only, I repeat, the whites were angry with the Bolsheviks (the former officer, the Bolshevik and some sailor, was executed by them), regardless of social affiliation (naturally, innocent people often suffered under a hot hand), and the red ones purposefully destroyed entire social groups. And the red terror is bigger and worse. Especially at an early stage.
              The commanders - bandits (Annenkov and Semenov among the whites, Muravyov and Avtonomov among the reds) were all.
              In short, based on how terrible the Civil War is, those who called for turning the imperialist (that is, external) war into a civil war, perfectly understanding the consequences of this for Russia, are real criminals. Is not it so?
              And all - it was necessary to wait for the victory over Germany and its allies. In every sense it was cheaper
              1. Nagaibak
                Nagaibak 5 December 2019 20: 11
                +4
                Adjutant "Can you idealize the Reds?"
                And where did I write that they can be idealized?
                Adjutant "All in all, it was necessary to wait for the victory over Germany and her allies."
                You simplify the situation.))) People’s waiting was over.))) The country was unlucky with the king, the priest. If the Cunning one were in power, maybe he would have kept the situation in the country and so ... temporary even weaker ones came to power, the foundations of the state collapsed abolished the one-man management in the army. Further events everyone knows.
              2. evgic
                evgic 5 December 2019 20: 17
                +4
                And all - it was necessary to wait for the victory over Germany and its allies. In every sense it was cheaper
                Excuse me, what about the red ones? Were it not for February, there would be no October. Army destroyed order No. 1 of the interim government, not the Bolsheviks. And then there was nothing to fight, no one and why. The Reds actually saved what else could be saved.
                1. Ryazan87
                  Ryazan87 5 December 2019 20: 52
                  +1
                  Army destroyed order No. 1 of the interim government, not the Bolsheviks.

                  Excuse me, what about the Provisional Government?
                  Order No. 1 was issued by the United Petrograd Soviet of Workers 'and Soldiers' Deputies. By the way, by the time the order was issued (March 2 (15), 1917), the Executive Committee of the Council included 7 Bolsheviks (A. N. Paderin, A. D. Sadovsky, V. I. Badenko, F. F. Linde, and others). The Mensheviks and the villain Sokolov were noted, too, of course.
                  Well it is, for information.
                  1. evgic
                    evgic 5 December 2019 21: 04
                    0
                    That is, they called themselves the government, but they can manage anything, have spawned some advice that orders that they want and are not guilty of the interim government? The fact that they have a mess in the army and corruption, are also the Bolsheviks to blame, not the VP and those who were behind the overthrow of the tsar? Well then, we now have a holy government in general, on whom they also have blame
                    1. Ryazan87
                      Ryazan87 6 December 2019 10: 50
                      +2
                      That is, they called themselves the government, but they can manage anything, have spawned some advice that orders that they want and are not guilty of the interim government?

                      That is, you do not know that:
                      1. The interim government as an authority created the next day after the publication of Order No. 1;
                      2. The Provisional Government was created as a result of the agreement of the Provisional Committee of the State Duma and the Petrograd Soviet of Workers 'and Soldiers' Deputies.
                      A respected colleague, Albatroz, has already mentioned Pro Dual Power. True, there was rather a situation of Siamese twins who want to kill each other.
                      Excuse me generously, but it would not hurt you to at least superficially familiarize yourself with the milestones of the political history of Russia in 1917.
                      R.S. one of the most curious figures in the Order # 1 case is the actual author and editor Nikolai Sokolov, a lawyer closely associated with the socialist movement and directly with the Bolsheviks. Yes, and a near-Mason. They called him a "non-factional" Bolshevik, although he was not a member of any party.
                      And after 1917, modestly - "... he worked as a legal adviser to the Soviet government, holding positions in various Soviet institutions."
                  2. Albatroz
                    Albatroz 5 December 2019 21: 39
                    +8
                    The situation from March to October 17 was characterized as dual power. That is a symbiosis of the Provisional Government and the Petrograd Council.
                    Without each other, they could not make serious decisions; strength was lacking and credibility. Plus, the same characters (often) were included in both bodies. Like for example Chernov.
                    So it's a two-headed little dragon, so to speak.
                    A type of communicating vessel
        2. chenia
          chenia 5 December 2019 19: 40
          -1
          Quote: Adjutant
          The Red Terror is a state policy aimed at the destruction of entire social groups.


          And the liberal terror of the whole people.
          And with a sweet smile, constantly, slowly and in any way. Only when you start counting the population over decades does a third of the population suddenly disappear.
          1. Hunghuz
            Hunghuz 5 December 2019 19: 52
            +4
            Liberals (the most interesting thing) are not contraindicated for any England. Why?
            Maybe we rub anyone, but it turns out? .. as in that joke)
            Names and disguises alone
  10. Elturisto
    Elturisto 5 December 2019 20: 16
    -5
    An article on the type of a bullet is a fool, a bayonet is a young man. About how infantry steel helmets were chopped with checkers ...
    1. Albatroz
      Albatroz 5 December 2019 21: 42
      +6
      An article (as you can see) about some interesting features of the use of checkers and the art of our cavalrymen. Please note that not a word about the infantry. Cavalry versus cavalry.
      That is
      The rest - you yourself have come up with and pull others under this thesis? wink
      1. Albatroz
        Albatroz 5 December 2019 21: 45
        +4
        But for me, as history shows, indeed, often a fool’s bullet and a bayonet did well. With less loss and time, the desired result.
        Naturally in a favorable environment
      2. Elturisto
        Elturisto 6 December 2019 11: 33
        -4
        You have a problem with understanding what you read. The article is based on propaganda from the time of the 1st World War. The task of retelling the technical article lagged behind the tsarist army (for example, in artillery) against the backdrop of its opponents. We’ll chop all of them with drafts. The infantry helmet because the helmet model is infantry, which could be used by cavalrymen.
        1. XII Legion
          XII Legion 6 December 2019 18: 00
          +3
          "Article" as you please express yourself Karl Marx, based on several sources, links to which are given in the text.
          As for the rest. It’s time for you to start thinking, abandoning stupid ideological blinders.
          Like, we chop them all with checkers
          Copyright - Karl Marx, not someone wink
          An infantry helmet because the helmet model is an infantry helmet, which cavalrymen could also use.
          why puff up and make excuses?)) with an effort coming up with excuses for your fantasies.
          For the fact that the article is not about infantry. We don’t read, but we’re smart)
          No, trying to be clever))
          1. Elturisto
            Elturisto 6 December 2019 20: 03
            -5
            Chat a lot and it's not the case ... I flush the water ...
            1. XII Legion
              XII Legion 6 December 2019 22: 54
              +3
              Flush your water)) false Carlo Marx ElTuristo (ElTuristo)
              Would you please confirm your opus
              The article is based on the agitation of the 1st World War

              Could you name this agitation ...
              times of the First World War))
              shpyakyauchus?))
              I look forward to, with impatience, with - a link to this "PMV propaganda", you are our staff member bryakhunchauchas))
              1. Albatroz
                Albatroz 6 December 2019 23: 09
                0
                You do not understand the 12th legion?
                He casts wassat
                That is, it refers
                Our lying provocateur Vyacheslav Olegovich
                Not the first time laughing
  11. Pacifist with AK
    Pacifist with AK 5 December 2019 23: 00
    +4
    "For example, a platoon non-commissioned officer by the name of Luft with a powerful blow not only cut the German's helmet (cutting his head open), but also, when the saber slid from the victim's head, cut the horse's rump" .............. ...........
    Have you noticed your last name? Luft is clearly ethnic German or had German roots. This is the entire Russian Empire ..... "Before the First World War, the number of German villages in the Russian Empire (not counting the Russian part of Poland) ranged from 3 to 4 thousand." (Wiki).
  12. Indifferent
    Indifferent 6 December 2019 00: 39
    +3
    My father knew how to fight well with a saber! He told me that when they fought against the Basmachis, they specially put on 4-6 chapan (cotton quilted robes). It was impossible to cut through them with a checker. How many times did he chase after the basmach and chopped it with a saber. Vata flies, but it’s impossible to cut through. And without cotton wool, too, with a successful strike, he could break a man in two. But he preferred firearms. And the checker was used only for general attacks on the enemy.
    1. e-sam
      e-sam 7 January 2020 02: 21
      -2
      Quote: indifferent
      He told me that when they fought against the Basmachis,

      Decent people of such details of their biography (and the biography of their relatives) are shy. But zombies don't look like decent people at all.
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  14. Batonkt
    Batonkt 6 December 2019 13: 26
    0
    For some reason, I immediately recall the clip "The Russians are chopping the Russians" and the comments confirm this.
  15. certero
    certero 6 December 2019 13: 49
    0
    How do you imagine the severed "vine" remaining standing? The checker has a nonzero thickness and inevitably had to move the chopped parts. And in modern reconstructions, for some reason, such garbage never turns out.
    1. Flatter
      Flatter 6 December 2019 23: 21
      0
      The answer is not so much in strength as in the sharpness of the impact-momentum of force per unit time, this is the main thing in such exercises
      1. certero
        certero 7 December 2019 02: 34
        0
        Please, remember better school formulas what is strength and what is impulse. At the same time explain what sharpness is in these terms. And how does this all affect the fact that the chopped stick remains standing after the violation of the integrity of its structure.
        After discussion in such terms, it becomes clear that all these stories are ordinary stories.
        1. Flatter
          Flatter 21 December 2019 12: 38
          -1
          Pull the paper out from under the standing glass. The glass will remain in place.
          1. certero
            certero 23 December 2019 14: 17
            0
            Well, where in your example with paper is a violation of the structure? However, as soon as I see a video on YouTube where they chopped a saber like that right away, I believe it
  16. wow
    wow 6 December 2019 18: 08
    0
    Horror, yo-mine ...!
  17. Albatroz
    Albatroz 6 December 2019 23: 00
    0
    So the Russian cavalry was cut
    What is unbeknownst to today's spaxes
  18. Ryazan87
    Ryazan87 10 December 2019 18: 52
    0
    Another historical quote:
    "... In the twilight that came at once, the reds could be distinguished from our own only by instinct and by their large hats and hoods ... In the fire of a common dump, something instantly flashed in my eyes, like a big spark or a ball of fire and I got a saber hit in the head; thanks to the cap, the skull remained intact, only part of the scalp fell off, closing the right eye and exposing the skull. With my right hand with a bloody saber hanging on it on a lanyard, I tried to raise the skin hanging on my face and free my bloodshot eye ... A good horse took me out of the general dump with several leaps. Everything happened very quickly, as if in an instant. The sleeve, glove, cut shoulder strap and shoulder were soaked through with blood. On the way, a dressing was made - the individual package found its application ... "
    A.V. Golubintsev "Russian Vendee. Essays on the Civil War on the Don 1917-1920", Munich, 1959
  19. ab2020
    ab2020 7 January 2020 02: 01
    0
    In general, the article describes it well. About the wheelhouse "to the saddle" I heard from Grandfather. He was told by his father and uncle - they fought in the First World War. The dashing men were the Don Cossacks.
    But about the use of cavalry units exclusively in equestrian attack - an obvious bust.
    At that time, a horse is a convenient form of transport. Equestrian unit can make significant marches, carry ammunition.
    I also heard from Grandfather that the shooting training of the Cossacks was at their best. My great-grandfather - a Don Cossack - was an army gunsmith in the army, he worked with small arms.
    1. e-sam
      e-sam 7 January 2020 02: 17
      -1
      Quote: ab2020
      But about the use of cavalry units exclusively in equestrian attack - an obvious bust.

      Used, unfortunately. There were enough idiots in the Red Army.
      But in fact, in the world, cavalry was an appendage of the motorized infantry. Only the car could not pass everywhere, and the horse was more "passable".
      In addition, the car could not be eaten in this case. A horse, easily.
  20. ma-monthly
    ma-monthly 9 January 2020 06: 11
    -2
    "One corpse struck me: it was cut in half, in the very middle, from the head to the waist. There was not a drop of blood and the dissected parts looked like anatomical models from a museum. Their color was pale pink and were clearly visible."

    oh he didn’t know what he was saying, he would have kept silent ...
    this type of dissection (bloodless) is characteristic of post-mortem wounds. Those. already the corpse was leaned against something and chopped.
    However, this will be news only for patriots in pink glasses who consider the Red Army angels with wings. Cruelty and atrocities in the Civil War went wild on both sides.
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