On the secrecy of the Soviet SSBNs

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In the previous article we looked at the pros and cons of a naval component of the strategic nuclear forces triad. And we came to the conclusion that missile strategic submarine cruisers (SBNs) of the Russian Federation are absolutely necessary both now and in the foreseeable future. But all these generally correct arguments will become meaningless and insignificant if the…

SSBN stealth in combat services


The key task of the Russian Navy should be considered participation in strategic deterrence and ensuring nuclear retaliation in the event of a nuclear war. To solve this problem fleet must ensure the covert deployment of a certain number of SSBNs on combat duty (CD) in full readiness for an immediate nuclear missile strike. At the same time, stealth is the most important, fundamental advantage of SSBNs, without which the very idea of ​​submarines carrying strategic nuclear weapons weapon completely meaningless.



Obviously, in order to be able to fulfill the deterrence function and, if necessary, to strike back at the aggressor, our SSBNs must carry out military service not detected, not taken for escort by multipurpose submarines and other anti-aircraft and naval reconnaissance equipment of our very probable opponents. If this condition is not met, then the SSBNs cannot serve as weapons of guaranteed retaliation and as a means of preventing nuclear war. They will be destroyed at the moment of aggression and will not have time to use their own nuclear weapons, so the enemy will have no reason for concern.

Can our Navy secure the secrecy of its strategic nuclear forces today? Due to the lack of relevant statistics in open sources, the author, not being either a submariner or even a military sailor, should rely on the opinion of professionals in this matter. Alas, pros often adhere to polar points of view on this issue, and it is extremely difficult to understand where the truth is all the same.

It is believed that, although our SSBNs periodically fell into the sights of the Los Angeles and Sivulfs, a considerable number managed to avoid unnecessary attention from the US Navy and NATO. And that was enough to guarantee nuclear retaliation in the event of a sudden Armageddon. But there are, alas, other allegations: that neither in the USSR, nor in the Russian Federation could ensure secrecy of the SSBN. And that the American submariners on an ongoing basis monitored and continue to monitor our strategic submarines, being ready to immediately destroy the latter as soon as the order is issued.

What really happens, it is decidedly impossible for an outsider to understand from all this. But still, the author has an assumption, to a certain extent, “reconciling” these positions.

A bit of history


To begin with, it is worth recalling that the USSR for a long time lost in the "race of low noise" - domestic nuclear submarines were much inferior in this indicator to our "sworn friends". The situation began to level off on the last multi-purpose nuclear submarines of the 2nd generation. The same Americans noted that the Russian submarines of the Victor III type (Pike project 671RTMK) are noticeably quieter than the previous types of Soviet submarines, so the gap in this indicator between them and the US nuclear submarine has narrowed significantly.


"Pike" of the project 671RTMK - B-138 "Obninsk"

The situation was even better for the multipurpose nuclear submarines of the 3 generation of the Schuka-B, or Shark, according to NATO classification. This predator should not be confused with the heavy SSBNs of the 941 project, which was also called the “Shark”, but in the USSR and the Russian Federation. In NATO, these TRPKSN called "Typhoons."

So, even the most pessimistic estimates of the noisiness of our 3-generation multipurpose nuclear submarines suggest that our Pike-Bs, if they didn’t achieve it, were very close to the American indicators. Here, however, the range of opinions is also quite large. There are allegations that Pike-B surpassed Los Angeles and caught up with Improved Los Angeles, or that our submarine nuclear submarines even managed to surpass Americans in stealth. But there is an opposite opinion: that the lag nevertheless remained, and in terms of low noise “Pike-B” did not even reach the “Los Angeles”. Perhaps the answer lies in the fact that the Shchuk-B series was constantly being improved, and the same Americans in their classification divide them into the 4 sub-series: Shark, Improved Shark, Shark II, and Shark III, moreover, the noise level of these submarines was constantly decreasing. So it cannot be ruled out that the ships of the first sub-series were inferior to the usual "moose", but the Shark II or Shark III nuclear submarines could still compete with Improved Los Angeles.


K-335 "Cheetah". "Pike-B" of the 971 project in our opinion, "Shark III" in NATO

If you believe the American data, then "Pike-B" gained superiority over the "Improved" Los Angeles "already starting from the sub-series" Improved "Shark". This is what the naval analyst N. Polmar announced when he delivered a speech to the US Congress in 1997. It should be noted that N. Polmar was not alone in this opinion: in his speech he quoted the Commander of the United States Naval Operations, Admiral Jeremy Burdu: “For the first time since we launched the Nautilus, a situation arose that the Russians in the sea have submarines that are quieter than ours.”

And if we assume that all of the above is at least partially true, then we can state that the USSR gradually overcame the lag in low noise compared to American nuclear submarines. Thus, the lead Los Angeles was transferred to the fleet in 1974, but its analogue comparable in noise, the first Shchuka-B, was transferred only in 1984. We can talk about a 10-year lag. But the first Improved Los Angeles entered service in 1988, and the Improved Akula Shchuka-B in 1992, that is, the difference was already only 4 years.

In other words, the author does not have reliable data on the real noise ratio of domestic and American nuclear submarines. But the significant progress made by designers and shipbuilders of the USSR in reducing low noise in the 80's cannot be denied. And we can say that even according to the most pessimistic estimates, we approached the level of "Los Angeles" in 1984, and to "Improved" Los Angeles "- in 1992.

What about the SSBN? For a long time, our submarine missile carriers differed significantly worse than American submarines. This, alas, is true for the last representatives of the 2 SSBN of the 667BDR Kalmar project.


One of the last 667BDR - K-433 "St. George the Victorious." Currently awaiting disposal

But, as you know, after the Squid, the development of domestic naval strategic nuclear forces went in two parallel ways. On the one hand, in 1972, the design of the latest 3 generation SSBN, which became the "Shark" of the 941 project, was begun. But a little later, work was continued to improve the Squid, which led to the creation of the Dolphins project 667BDRM. What were these ships?

The heavy SSBNs of the 941 project became extremely famous due to their gigantic size and hitherto unprecedented firepower in the USSR Navy. More than 23 thousand tons of standard displacement and 20 powerful ICBMs. But with all this, it was the Sharks who became real, full-fledged representatives of the 3 generation of the SSBNs in which, like in the multipurpose Shchuky-B of the 971 project, a significant noise reduction was achieved. According to some reports, our 941 project SSBNs were slightly more noisy than their American counterparts Ohio, but less than Los Angeles (probably not advanced) and less than our Pike-B "(First sub-series?).


With this size it is possible to set the brains of world imperialism!

But with the "Dolphins" 667BDRM things were much worse. That is, they, of course, turned out to be much quieter than their predecessors, the 667BDD Kalmar, but despite the use of many technologies of the 941 project, the Dolphins nevertheless “made noise” much louder than the “Sharks”. The ships of the 667BDRM project, in fact, cannot be considered submarines of the 3 generation, they were rather transitional from the 2 to the 3. Something like today's multi-functional fighters “4 +” and “4 ++”, whose performance characteristics are significantly superior to the classic aircraft of the 4 generation, but do not reach the 5. Alas, the 667BDRM noise figures, according to the author, also “stuck” somewhere between the 2 and 3 generations of nuclear submarines: they did not reach the standards of the 941 project, not to mention Ohio.

And now it should be remembered that the underwater carriers of the 3-generation ICBMs both among us and the Americans appeared relatively late, in the 80s of the last century. The parent Ohio and TK-208 of the 941 project (later Dmitry Donskoy) were transferred to the fleet in 1981, later on the number of Sharks and Dolphins in the USSR Navy grew as follows

On the secrecy of the Soviet SSBNs

It is worth noting that the numbers indicated in the table can be safely shifted to the right by a year - the fact is that the SSBNs were mostly transferred to the fleet in the last days of December, that is, they actually went into operation the next year. And it can also be assumed that the latest ships did not immediately leave the shipyard for combat duty, but for some time mastered the fleet.

Then from the above figures it can be concluded that the Soviet Navy simply did not have time to properly feel the opportunities that the new and relatively low-noise SSBNs provided to it. In a somewhat noticeable amount, “Sharks” and “Dolphins” appeared in the fleet only in the second half of the 80's. But even in 1991 and 13 ships of these types accounted for only slightly more than 22,4% of all SSBNs of the USSR - at the end of 1991, the Russian Navy had as many as 58 strategic submarine missile carriers. And, in fact, only 10% of their total number - 6 heavy SSBNs of the 941 Shark project - really met the requirements of that time.

A bit about the enemy


In 1985, the basis of the American multipurpose submarine forces was the 33 submarine of the Los Angeles type.


Parent of the series - SSN-688 Los Angeles

It can be assumed that ships of this type were able to detect first and maintain contact, undetected, with any Soviet SSBN, possibly with the exception of the Sharks. If among the Soviet SSBNs there were those who had a chance to spot the enemy first and avoid meeting before they were discovered, then these are the giants of the 941 project.

Alas, in the beginning of the 90's the situation changed, and not in our favor. The Americans adopted an improved version of their already outstanding multi-purpose nuclear submarines, in which, among other things, they managed to significantly reduce noise. The first “Los Angeles Improved” atomic ship was handed over to the US Navy in 1988, during the 1989-1990 years it went into operation as 4, but still the mass arrival of these ships in the 1991-1995 years, when it was transferred to 16 Nuclear submarines of this type. A total of the U.S. Navy 1996 g inclusive received 23 such ships. And although the author cannot say this for certain, apparently, not one type of our SSBN could “dodge” the “Improved Los Angeles”. It can be assumed that the Sharks had good chances, if not to leave, then at least to detect the “surveillance” of modern American multipurpose atomarians, but other SSBNs, including Dolphins, could hardly count on this.

It should be noted that the latest in the 80's “Sharks” and “Dolphins” replenished exclusively the Northern Fleet. The Pacific, on the other hand, had to be content with, at best, the 2 generation SSBN, such as Squid, or earlier episodes.

A little thought


In general, the situation from the author’s sofa looks something like this. From the moment of their appearance and before the commissioning of the ships of the 667BDRM and 941 project, our nuclear submarine-based SSBNs had noise levels that did not allow them to overcome the boundaries of the NATO PLO and enter the ocean. Our ships were too noticeable to throw them against a whole anti-submarine system, including stationary hydrophones and sonar reconnaissance ships, numerous frigates and destroyers, submarines, specialized aircraft and helicopters, and even spy satellites.

Accordingly, the only way to ensure the combat stability of our underwater ballistic missile launchers was to place them in the so-called "bastions" —the areas of dominance of the USSR Navy, where the presence of surface and air forces of the NATO PLO was, if not completely excluded, then extremely difficult. Of course, we could build such "bastions" only in the seas adjacent to our borders, so such a concept could appear only after ballistic missiles of the corresponding range appeared on the arsenal of the SSBN.

Thanks to this decision, we removed the SSBN patrol areas from the range of the enemy’s PLO system to our area of ​​similar purpose. Thus, the combat stability of the strategic nuclear forces has obviously increased significantly. But, nevertheless, our SSBNs of the 1 and 2 generation, even in the "bastions", remained vulnerable to enemy multipurpose nuclear submarines, which had a great advantage in low noise. Apparently, the situation dramatically improved only in the second half of the 80-ies of the last century, when the Dolphins and Sharks entered the arsenal of the Northern Fleet in a noticeable amount.

The author suggests that in the second half of the 80's, the Northern Fleet provided for the secret deployment of SSBN projects 941 and 667BDRM. Yes, it is possible that even the Shark was not able to avoid contact with the American multipurpose nuclear submarine, but the whole point is that reducing the noise of the SSBN is an extremely important factor even if it is not possible to achieve superiority or at least equality in terms of this indicator with the enemy’s nuclear submarines. And here it is.

The lower the noise of the SSBN, the smaller the distance of its detection. And the capabilities of the US nuclear submarines to search in the same Barents Sea were largely limited to the Soviet anti-aircraft defense system, which included many surface and submarine ships, planes and helicopters. In the 80s, Los Angeles met “black holes” in northern waters - diesel-electric submarines of the 877 project “Halibut”, BODs of the 1155 project, equipped with a monstrous mass (about 800 t) but also a very powerful Polyn ", Multi-purpose" Pike "and" Pike-B ", etc. All this did not exclude the passage of "moose" to the "bastion", but still seriously limited their search capabilities. And the low noise of the SSBN, combined with the difficulties that the Soviet anti-aircraft defense system created for the Americans, reduced the likelihood of such a meeting to acceptable values ​​for us.

Moreover, the concentration of the latest SSBNs in the north was absolutely justified for the USSR. The fact is that the northern seas are extremely unfriendly to acoustics, most of the time of year the conditions for “listening to the waters” in them are extremely far from optimal. So, for example, according to open (and, alas, not necessarily true) data, under favorable weather conditions, Dolphins can be detected by the Superior Los Angeles submarine at a distance of up to 30 km. But these favorable conditions in the north are approximately a month in a year. And in the remaining 11 months, the detection distance of "Dolphin" does not exceed 10 km or even less.


K-407 Novomoskovsk - representative of the 667BDRM project

Obviously, finding “The shark was even more difficult. The opinion was already mentioned above that the “Sharks” defeated the Shchuk-B in low noise. At the same time, American Admiral D. Burda, when he was the chief of the operational headquarters of the US Navy, claimed that the American nuclear submarines were not able to detect the Pike-B if the latter was moving at the speed of 6-9 knots. And if the heavy SSBN could move even quieter, then it would be extremely difficult to detect it even for the latest American atomarians.

But what about the Pacific Fleet? Alas, he was forced to be content with obsolete types of SSBNs and could not provide for their covert deployment. In the north, we had three components of success:

1. Combat services of the SSBN in the zone of domination of the Soviet fleet.

2. Very poor “acoustic transparency” of the northern seas.

3. The latest relatively low-noise submarine missile carriers "Dolphin" and "Shark".

In the Pacific Fleet, of the above, only the first item was available. And it is extremely doubtful that this would be enough to ensure the secrecy of such relatively noisy ships as the 667BDR Kalmar project, not to mention the earlier representatives of this class of nuclear submarines.

A little disaster


And then came 1991 and everything crumbled. With the collapse of the USSR, the great fleet of the Country of Soviets found itself in a joke - the country had no funds for its maintenance and operation. This led, first of all, to the fact that our "bastions" essentially ceased to be such: the areas of dominance of the former Soviet and then the Russian Navy turned into nothing in five minutes. The warships stood idle at the piers, sent for scrap or to the reserve, from which the road was only for scrap. Airplanes and helicopters quietly rusted at airfields.

These "new trends", apparently, quickly put an end to the ability of the Pacific Fleet to somehow cover up their own SSBNs. Most likely, the way to the ocean “Squid” was ordered back in Soviet times, but now a critical weakening of the defense of the Pacific “bastion” combined with the appearance of the enemy even more advanced and low-noise atomic “Improved Los Angeles” and “Sivulf” led to that the "bastion" has become the hunting ground of American submariners.

As for the Northern Fleet, here too the crews of our “strategists” could rely mainly only on themselves. The author assumes that for the Dolphins of the 667BDRM project, such conditions became a five-minute death sentence.

Of course, if we assume that “Los Angeles” under normal conditions of the northern seas could detect “Dolphin” at a distance of 10 km, then in a day the American nuclear submarines, following the “low-noise” 7 nodes, could control approximately 6 216 sq. km This amounts to only 0,44% of the total area of ​​the Barents Sea. And we must also take into account that if the SSBN diverged with the "moose" only 12-15 km, then the "Dolphin" will cross the zone "controlled" by the American submarine, previously remaining undetected.

Everything seems to be fine, but only the calculation of “0,44%” works only if the Americans had a large Barents Sea and the SSBN could be located anywhere. But this is not so - in the USA the basing points of our SSBNs are well known and it is enough for American submariners to control the approaches to the bases and the probable deployment routes of our strategic submarines. Thus, US nuclear submarines significantly narrow down their search areas, and there are not too many chances that the SSBN of the 667BDRM project will be able to enter the duty area unnoticed. But even in these areas, the Dolphin crews are unlikely to feel safe: there are no more powerful general forces capable of detecting and hampering the actions of American nuclear submarines. And the Dolphin itself can hardly counter anything with the modern enemy nuclear submarines. As mentioned above, the SSBN of the 667BDRM project is a transitional type of nuclear submarine from the 2 to the 3 generation. And he needs to “dodge” from the atomarians of the 3-th (Los Angeles), the improved 3-th and now even the 4-th generation (Sivulf and Virginia). This is about the same as putting up against the Su-35 or Su-57 something like the MiG-23MLD or MiG-29 of the first series. Or try on the upgraded Phantom or Tomcat F-14A to fight against the F-22, if you like.

Apparently, in the 90's, only the TRNKSN of the 941 Shark project could solve the problem of nuclear deterrence. Yes, there were no "bastions" anymore, and the Shark was inferior to the latest American nuclear submarines in terms of low noise, but all the same, in order to detect this type of underwater missile carrier it was necessary to approach it literally several kilometers. Probably, in a number of cases, American submariners were able to take the SSBN for escort. But it is extremely doubtful that even Uncle Sam’s powerful submarine fleet would be able to build a sufficiently “strong” submarine “net” outside the zones of their submarine systems in order to guarantee that the 941 projected SSBN is in sight.

And just one "Shark", provided that its missiles are aimed at US cities - this is certain death for about 20 million people.


"The Last of the Mohicans" of the 941 project is Dmitry Donskoy. Alas, the times when the salvo of his 20 R-39 missiles was able to wipe off the top two dozen largest cities in any country in the world

But, as you know, we destroyed the ships of the 941 project ourselves. Of the six TRPCNS of this type, three were withdrawn from the fleet in 1996-97. The rest themselves “retired” in 2005-2006. due to the expiration of storage periods of their main main weapon - SLBM R-39. And as a result, the nuclear containment task fell on the shoulders of the Dolphins. Which, frankly, in the 90s of the last century were only partially suitable for this, and in the 2000s they are already frankly outdated.

Few conclusions


Everything is quite simple here.

For a long time, the domestic strategic nuclear forces were very vulnerable to enemy influence: a significant part of them could really be destroyed at the very beginning of the global conflict. The task of nuclear deterrence was carried out rather due to the large number of SSBNs in the fleet. Indeed, having 58 ships of this class, even with a factor of operational voltage equal to 0,2, we get an 11-12 SSBN in combat service at any given time. And even if up to 70-80% of this amount was controlled by US multipurpose nuclear submarines, it should still be assumed that the Soviet Navy had 2-3, or even all 4 strategic submarines, undetected, and ready to launch a nuclear strike.

The combat stability of the SSBNs was achieved only in the 80s of the last century, with the introduction of the 941 project into the SSBN. But only six such ships were built, and they did not last long. At the same time, the bulk of the Soviet and Russian SSBNs were ships of the 2 (and "2 +") generation, which could be relatively easily tracked and accompanied by multi-purpose US nuclear submarines. The latter, apparently, gave rise to many negative reviews about the inability of the Navy of the USSR and the Russian Federation to ensure the secrecy of its SSBNs.

Nevertheless, the experience in operating the “Sharks” of the 941 project shows that the SSBN, even slightly inferior in the overall technological level to the ships of the likely enemy, can still successfully fulfill the tasks of nuclear deterrence. The thing is that regardless of the noise ratio of our SSBNs and American nuclear submarines, if our strategic submarine cruiser is quiet enough that it is “easier to find than to hear,” it will be extremely difficult to find it even for the ultra-modern Virginia. In some cases, such SSBNs will, of course, be detected, but in some cases not.

In other words, even assuming that until now the Americans have managed to control 80-90% of all our SSBNs on combat duty (the author came across such estimates, which, however, are extremely doubtful), this does not mean at all that we should refuse SSBN. It only means that we need to understand which ships of this class need to be built, where to base them, and how to ensure their deployment and combat patrol.

But we will discuss this in the next article.

To be continued ...
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  1. + 13
    25 November 2019 18: 12
    Thanks to Andrey for the article, detailed and interesting! hi
    Now with the Strategists - the business is more or less being established ... MAPL is catastrophically lacking to cover them.
    1. -8
      25 November 2019 20: 11
      Where is this getting better? Over the last 5 years, NOT A SINGLE new nuclear submarine, neither strategic nor multipurpose, has been introduced into the fleet... And today, the Russian Navy has less than 20 nuclear submarines of all types, capable of going on combat duty... What nuclear submarines, the Russian Navy has only 13 minesweepers, and there is NOT a single one in the Baltic!!! But we have only 3 so-called "communication boats", which are essentially VIP yachts, in the Baltic!!!
      1. + 12
        25 November 2019 21: 06
        1. After 1992 and until 2004, 1 submarine was laid down if that. That gave a sharp jump down in the construction and commissioning of nuclear submarines in the 200s and 2010s.

        2. In the period after 2004 and until 2014, the Borei ersatz (with the use of structural elements of antees and pikes) and the experienced Boreas with Ashens, who naturally had to treat childhood diseases, were laid in essence - it did not make sense to lay massively nuclear submarines of an unworked type.

        3. But in the period after 2014 (the last five years) 5 Ash-trees and 5 Boreev were laid. Naturally, if they were laid down in 2014, they did not enter the fleet by 2019. They will be introduced in 2020-2024.

        4. As for minesweepers ... what are you going to trawl in the Baltic? If the war suddenly and they put minefields there will aviation allow you to trawl?
    2. -5
      25 November 2019 20: 19
      Quote: Hunter 2
      MAPL is catastrophically lacking to cover them.

      And the fact that they themselves are a giveaway for SSBNs on combat duty, does it not bother you? After all, they are required to communicate constantly, and this will not go unnoticed by radio intelligence. Maybe it is easier to leave cover for naval aviation and rely on the weapons of missile carriers, rather than making it easier for the enemy to detect a submarine group, which in addition to SSBNs will also include other submarines?
      1. +5
        26 November 2019 07: 36
        Multipurpose nuclear submarines and other general forces are needed not to escort the SSBNs, but to identify and squeeze out an enemy ploy from the areas of their routes and BS
        1. 0
          26 November 2019 12: 07
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Multipurpose submarines and other general forces are not needed to accompany the SSBN,

          You didn't read carefully the author's statement, which was specifically about a cover-up:
          Quote: Hunter 2
          MAPL is catastrophically lacking to cover them.


          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          and to identify

          Isn’t it too expensive to use MAPL to identify enemy submarines - can it be cheaper with reconnaissance buoys, for example?

          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          and squeezing an enemy plo from areas of their routes

          And as you see it in peacetime - to go to a ram or something? Don't make people laugh, but rather think about what such "squeezing" out of the territorial waters can cost us.
          1. +1
            26 November 2019 16: 23
            Quote: ccsr
            what can such "squeezing" cost us outside the territorial waters.

            casus belli request
            1. +2
              26 November 2019 18: 23
              Quote: ser56
              casus belli

              The Americans are not so stupid as to start a nuclear war with Russia on their own initiative - the country's leadership there is pragmatist, and it is unlikely that they want to deprive themselves and their families of life and a prosperous existence.
              1. 0
                26 November 2019 18: 28
                Quote: ccsr
                Americans are not stupid enough to start a nuclear war

                1) Do you have many American acquaintances? Or did you invent them, putting your understanding of the consequences into them? Alas, they haven't fought at home for a long time and suffer from a superiority complex and missionary spirit: hi
                2) events can go according to different scenarios after the sinking of the nuclear submarine, especially if there is someone like a clintons in the White House ... request
                1. +1
                  26 November 2019 19: 18
                  Quote: ser56
                  Do you have a lot of Americans you know? Or did you come up with them by investing in your understanding of the consequences?

                  No, not a single one right now. But you in vain think that the number of Americans you know may determine the understanding of who and how will use nuclear forces in their leadership - this is from another opera.
                  Quote: ser56
                  Alas, they have not fought at home for a long time and suffer from a complex of superiority and mission:

                  This is not at all the case when it comes to the use of nuclear weapons against them - the example of Kim best proves this.
                  Quote: ser56
                  events can go according to different scenarios after the sinking of the nuclear submarine,

                  And what happened after the Kursk or Thresher?
                  I think that strategic intelligence is still able to determine what happened and whether the missing submarine is the beginning of a war or a maritime tragedy associated with a number of factors unrelated to the attack. As for the "Clinton woman", keep in mind that they have a procedure for declaring the president insane or crazy. So they are not as careless as some might think.
                  1. 0
                    27 November 2019 14: 44
                    Quote: ccsr
                    This is from another opera.

                    be surprised, but in some cases, people behave based on their upbringing, which is associated with the country .... request
                    Quote: ccsr
                    This is not at all the case when it comes to the use of nuclear weapons against them - the example of Kim best proves this.

                    you yourself answered how to behave with them ... request
                    Quote: ccsr
                    And what happened after the Kursk or Thresher?

                    but were they sunk? hi It’s a completely different matter when the nuclear submarine died at the enemy’s base or tracking ... there were already cases of damage during a collision ... But the nerves are not iron ... see CF. Case in sq. 37-80
                    Quote: ccsr
                    then keep in mind that they have a procedure for declaring the president insane or crazy

                    It is somewhat longer than a nuclear strike... request
                    1. 0
                      27 November 2019 19: 05
                      Quote: ser56
                      but were they sunk?

                      At the initial moment, no one knew what happened to them, and whether they were destroyed by the enemy.
                      Quote: ser56
                      It is somewhat longer than a nuclear strike ...

                      On the contrary, they will make a decision quite quickly if they understand that the president is going to attack us simply because of his desires - I am sure of this.
                      1. 0
                        28 November 2019 14: 30
                        Quote: ccsr
                        I'm sure of that.

                        if not a secret - why? Or is everything smart there, is it a mess with us? hi See the movie like Bradley did ... bully
                      2. +1
                        28 November 2019 18: 51
                        Quote: ser56
                        if not a secret - why?

                        I had to study our probable adversary.
                        Quote: ser56
                        Or is everything smart there, is it a mess with us?

                        I think the mess is the same, although in my opinion ours is more unpredictable.
                        Quote: ser56
                        See the movie like Bradley did ...

                        I don't know how they did anything, but if our Western Group of Forces wanted to start a war in Europe, then you couldn't think of a better time than Friday night into Saturday, or even better from Saturday into Sunday, and even during Easter week. And then they, without their strategic nuclear forces of course, would simply surrender all of Western Europe to us in a couple of days, with minimal losses on our part.
                      3. +1
                        29 November 2019 12: 15
                        Quote: ccsr
                        handed over to us all of Western Europe

                        stupid question - and zachem we also Western? Spend resources on the maintenance of troops and communist parties? And that they hated us and spat on our backs? Unfortunately we are not Americans - they have a profit from the deployment of troops ... request
                      4. +1
                        29 November 2019 16: 38
                        Quote: ser56
                        stupid question - why do we also need Western?

                        I made a conditional comparison about the readiness of NATO troops. We Western Europe and nafig was not needed, I can not even argue with that.
          2. +1
            26 November 2019 20: 03
            // And how do you see it in peacetime - to go for a ram or something? Don't make people laugh, but rather think about what such "squeezing" out of the territorial waters can cost us.

            You would read how extrusion occurs.
            And the following is done:
            Above the discovered submarine, several PLO ships / helicopters appear. Turn on their maximum HACKs and narrowly focused beams begin to process the submarine. Because of this concert, the boat simply stalls and cannot continue the pursuit. The concert continues until the submarine changes course and goes away.
            No violence. And yes, this is a common practice.
            1. 0
              27 November 2019 11: 37
              Quote: Serg4545
              Above the discovered submarine, several PLO ships / helicopters appear. Turn on their maximum HACKs and narrowly focused beams begin to process the submarine.

              Well, turn off a number of equipment on the submarine, take a certain depth and begin to drift for several days in the underwater current. Will airplanes and helicopters still fly, and surface ships, despite the stormy weather, will continue to process the submarine? Well, and what will it result in financial and resource plan - did not think by chance?
              Quote: Serg4545
              Because of this concert, the boat simply stalls and cannot continue the pursuit.

              Our boat stalls too. But another enemy submarine will continue to work on tracking as soon as the SSBN goes beyond the suppression systems.
              Quote: Serg4545
              You would read how extrusion occurs.

              You'd better figure out what kind of squeezing comes out, and whether it can be arranged 3-5 thousand miles from our coast, where our SSBNs are on duty. So, in theory, all this looks good, but only the officers of the Navy can know how it happens in practice, but they are likely to keep silent for a well-known reason.
              1. +1
                27 November 2019 12: 56
                // Well, turn off a number of equipment on the submarine, take a certain depth and begin to drift for several days in the underwater stream. //

                Well, that's great! If this submarine hung on the tail of our SSBN, then the SSBN would quietly retire. And in any case, the detected submarine is already not dangerous, our SSBN can always bypass it at a safe distance.
                Well, if the submarine really will interfere with something, then you can walk along the hull of the drifting submarine with a trawl lowered by an anchor, and simply with a metal cable. There is no threat to the submarine and its crew. But the rubber-like anti-acoustic coating on the submarine will be ripped off. And replacing this coating is expensive. And they will ask for it from the captain of the submarine. Does he need this? So this usually does not come to this, and the detected submarine, as a rule, quickly winds off from the area where it was discovered.

                // Our boat stalls too. But another enemy submarine will continue to work on tracking as soon as the SSBN goes beyond the suppression systems.

                No. It does not stall. Processing submarine HAK is a narrow beam.
                And where will another submarine come from?
                Even if the enemy has 2 submarines working in pairs, two options are possible:
                1) They go nearby. Accordingly, both of them are discovered and one fate befalls them (squeezing).
                2) 2 submarines move at a considerable distance from each other.
                Suppose the second submarine remains undetected, but it needs to make a huge hook to go around the area where the first submarine is being pressed. Moreover, at low speed, because they can hear. Our then PLO nearby!
                But our SSBNs can go straight ahead. As a result, the SSBN has a huge handicap in distance. And there they will change course a couple of times and look for winds in the field.

                // You’d better figure out what kind of squeezing comes out, and whether it can be arranged 3-5 thousand miles from our coast, where our SSBNs are on duty //

                There is no need to squeeze them out! Because 3-5 thousand miles from our coast is open ocean (most likely the Arctic Ocean). And there the probability of detecting our SSBNs by enemy submarines is absolutely insignificant. You read the article, right? It is difficult to detect them even in the Barents Sea. And in the ocean...
                So the enemy submarines have good chances to catch the tail of our SSBNs, only near our bases. But near our bases, we can easily accompany the SSBNs, detect enemy submarines and cut / squeeze them.
                1. 0
                  27 November 2019 13: 55
                  Quote: Serg4545
                  Well, that's great! If this submarine hung on the tail of our SSBN, then the SSBN would quietly retire. And in any case, the detected submarine is already not dangerous, our SSBN can always bypass it at a safe distance.

                  Yes, there is nothing good in this, because the Americans will monitor all these measures and carefully study them in order to take countermeasures. And we, apart from material costs and dubious experience, will not gain anything - that's the whole way out of this "squeezing out".
                  Quote: Serg4545
                  So this usually does not come to this, and the detected submarine, as a rule, quickly winds off from the area where it was discovered.

                  At this time, another submarine continued its reconnaissance activity, and the unknown was the first to be found to be mainstream or distracting.
                  Quote: Serg4545
                  Even if the enemy has 2 submarines working in pairs, two options are possible:

                  There is no need to guess, but one must always adhere to the rule of intelligence - "The enemy is much more cunning than he tries to seem." So one must always rely only on this.
                  Quote: Serg4545
                  But our SSBNs can go straight ahead.

                  To be honest, I don't care how they move at all, but the most important thing is whether they can quickly launch the entire BC on command, for me it is more important than their fate after the launch. That's how the current concept of the nuclear submarine fleet is designed - there is practically no hope that they will return after the war begins.
                  Quote: Serg4545
                  So there is no need to squeeze out!

                  Well, you yourself answered yourself that all these extrusion measures are not worth a penny. So it’s cheaper to track their activities than it is not clear why they are scurrying around them, trying to impose something on the boats that are reconnaissance off our coast.
                  Quote: Serg4545
                  So the enemy submarines have a good chance of catching our SSBN’s tail,

                  Something this statement does not fit with your statement:
                  Quote: Serg4545
                  And there the probability of detection of our SSBNs by enemy submarines is completely negligible.

                  But that’s not even the point, but how long our submarines can be undetected, if you say that
                  Even in the Barents Sea is difficult to detect.
                  1. 0
                    27 November 2019 17: 57
                    // Yes, there is nothing good in this, because the Americans will monitor all these activities and carefully study to take countermeasures.

                    And how much more should they study?)
                    About 60 years with us it is a common practice to cover our SSBNs. And the Americans did not come up with anything.
                    1. 0
                      27 November 2019 19: 34
                      Quote: Serg4545
                      And the Americans did not come up with anything.

                      If we don't know everything about their capabilities, then we must assume that they have already come up with something. At the very least, their current orbital reconnaissance group is several times more powerful than what they had in the Soviet period. This alone should alert any military professional when assessing their capabilities.
                2. 0
                  27 November 2019 14: 46
                  Quote: Serg4545
                  only near our ba

                  this is if the patrol areas of the SSBN have not been opened ... request
                  1. 0
                    27 November 2019 18: 00
                    // this is if the patrol areas of the SSBN have not been opened ... //

                    Most often, patrol areas are the whole of the Arctic. But sometimes the Pacific, Indian and Atlantic oceans.
                    How can this be opened?
                    1. 0
                      27 November 2019 19: 38
                      Quote: Serg4545
                      But sometimes the Pacific, Indian and Atlantic oceans.

                      Regarding the Indian Ocean, let me doubt it - it’s unlikely that our SSBNs go there for military service.
              2. 0
                28 November 2019 19: 10
                Nonsense, because the main operational management of the General Staff is not much interested in who, how and where is deployed, the main thing for them is how much we can hit targets with what really stands on duty.


                Are you tired of it? RPKSN combat services are held in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk at the Pacific Fleet and in the Barents and Kara Seas in the North. About 5000 miles can not even go in theory.
                This was the last time in the 80s, but then measures we were very sharply kicked out of the sea.
                1. +1
                  28 November 2019 21: 02
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  About 5000 miles can not even go in theory.
                  This was the last time in the 80s, but then measures we were very sharply kicked out of the sea.

                  Well, if the technical capabilities allow submarines to travel such distances, and this has already been verified from your own words in the 80s, then why can't current naval commanders organize this on more modern SSBNs? Or does your "theory" not allow this? By the way, I didn't mean today, but the time when we will have more modern SSBNs on the Pacific Fleet, and then the planning of campaigns can change dramatically.
        2. +1
          28 November 2019 18: 05
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Multipurpose nuclear submarines and other general forces are needed not to escort the SSBNs, but to identify and squeeze out an enemy ploy from the areas of their routes and BS

          So it is precisely their concentration in a certain place and at a certain time that will tell the enemy in which area it is necessary to concentrate reconnaissance efforts in order to reveal the route of the submarine missile carrier. Has it ever occurred to you why our strategic aviation planes fly without fighter cover, which, by the way, can also refuel in the air like the Tu-160 or Tu-95.
        3. -1
          6 December 2019 13: 10
          Multipurpose boats have a slightly different tactic. Let's just say not squeeze, but confuse the enemy’s brains. Something like this in general terms. With the conclusion to duty, even dizelyuhi cope.
          1. 0
            11 December 2019 13: 21
            What task they will be assigned, this will be accomplished. am
            I remember and from Holuy guys landed on the US terr. I learned from the landing participant. Much later.
            With the conclusion to duty, even dizelyuhi cope.
            Ek, you swung. And why then invented the radar and special tactics for them?
      2. 0
        28 November 2019 13: 15
        This is a strategy from around the mid 80s and late 90s. It was called, from memory, - ensuring stability in a separate area of ​​the water area. No one is "squeezing out" anymore, they simply do not let anyone in.
        Recently, there has been global superiority, where the effectiveness is cross-border and can be multiplied if necessary. I do not want to quote myself. What I wrote a couple of years ago is almost out of date.
    3. +1
      26 November 2019 16: 22
      Quote: Hunter 2
      MAPL is catastrophically lacking to cover them.

      and it will be so in the foreseeable future - it is inevitable! request
    4. 0
      30 November 2019 16: 37
      lol the phrase is a little embarrassing - I myself don’t know, but they’re secret and who don’t know they say the opposite))) is there any stupidity in this propaganda? hi
  2. + 10
    25 November 2019 18: 13
    "Even if we assume that until now the Americans have managed to control 80-90% of all our SSBNs on combat duty (the author has come across such estimates, which, however, are extremely doubtful), this does not mean at all that we should abandon SSBNs. It only means that we need to understand what kind of ships of this class need to be built, where to base them, and how to ensure their deployment and combat patrols "

    Yes, yes, yes, the SSBN is our everything since the days of Chaim Rykovsky laughing
  3. +1
    25 November 2019 18: 16
    Everything is logical.
  4. -6
    25 November 2019 18: 38
    Somewhere, like something, something with something. One guess and guesswork. Such questions are dealt with by people for whom this is a profession, and not by suckers.
    1. + 23
      25 November 2019 19: 05
      Quote: Oden280
      Somewhere, like something, something with something. One guess and guesswork.

      It would, of course, be good to base the analysis on 146% of the confirmed facts ... that's just the strategic nuclear forces - this is the area in which
      Who will give the correct answer -
      He will get ten years!
      ©
      1. +1
        26 November 2019 16: 26
        Quote: Alexey RA
        That's just the strategic nuclear forces - this is the area in which

        1) why only 10? crying
        2) why know everything, if the analysis is quite obvious enough - the more we have the SSBN, the more forces we will be forced to spend on their protection ... request At the same time, if a missile division, for example near Irkutsk, can be covered from the air and by sabotage, as well as a submarine base, then for SSBNs this is not enough - minesweepers, anti-submarine forces, submarines, etc., etc. are needed... request
    2. 0
      25 November 2019 19: 42
      When seafarers deal with such issues, it’s generally sad.
      Read Klimov, for example.
      1. +1
        26 November 2019 08: 01
        If it can be read, then it is the same about nothing.
  5. + 19
    25 November 2019 18: 51
    The author considers the situation only from the point of view of the technical characteristics of the nuclear submarine and from the point of view of the combat strength of the fleets.
    However, it is worth considering the issue of combat training of crews, which, unfortunately, falls between "bad" and "terrible".
    The training of crews is that problem, for which for some reason the command turns a blind eye. And this is a systemic problem.
    And in conjunction with the naval doctrine, which the author already mentioned in previous articles, the situation is awful.
    You can throw slippers.
    1. 0
      25 November 2019 21: 30
      Yes Yes! Crews have a special period of 3 months and then to the seas. The best staff approach! There, and donkey in the sea, but no sense!
    2. 0
      28 November 2019 13: 19
      You're right. Back in the 80s, there were many complaints about the underestimation and uncontrollability of some commanders and calculations. And this is after Paldiski.
  6. +8
    25 November 2019 18: 59
    Creepy somehow ... Dear Andrey, thanks for the article!
  7. +3
    25 November 2019 19: 16
    The stability of the marine component seems insufficient, at least in the first part.
  8. + 10
    25 November 2019 19: 18
    The author highlights the question: "Can our Navy today ensure the secrecy of its strategic nuclear forces?"
    In doing so, the author relies on the following "basis":
    - "Due to the lack of relevant statistics in open sources"
    - "the author, being neither a submariner, nor even a naval sailor"
    - Alas, pros often adhere to polar points of view on this issue.
    - In other words, the author does not have reliable data on the real noise ratio of domestic and American nuclear submarines.
    That is, an article on the topic "And talk?"
    1. +5
      25 November 2019 19: 37
      The author suggests discussing this topic, because for a complete analysis he does not have reliable information, which is either written better in historiography at a research institute or in combat units of the Russian Navy.
      1. + 13
        25 November 2019 21: 30
        Following the discussion, the participants will be divided into two groups:
        - couch experts, who are essentially a blizzard and who are no good, because they do not know anything about the noise and invisibility of nuclear submarines
        - rare real specialists who decided to say the right things about the noise and invisibility of nuclear submarines due to knowledge and access to information
        Participants from the second group will be rewarded for periods of 10 years :)
        1. +2
          25 November 2019 21: 46
          That’s for sure, the author’s author of not only this article’s calculation is to get grains of reliable information in the stream of opinions of various experts
    2. +5
      25 November 2019 21: 56
      Quote: Undecim
      That is, an article on the topic "And talk?"

      But we read this article with interest, and now we are discussing it! Well done Andrei, he raised an interesting topic, now we read what professionals think! good
      1. 0
        25 November 2019 22: 11
        this?
        “Sharks” won in the low noise of “Schuk-B” - this is a myth.

        if my memory serves me about professionals
        1. 0
          26 November 2019 19: 39
          Quote: Avior
          if my memory serves me about professionals

          Well, at least there is an opportunity to read all the available opinions! drinks
  9. -1
    25 November 2019 19: 46
    I recently read the book "Heroes of Bangor", which someone here recommended in the comments. So there the commander of our nuclear submarine (and not a bad commander who personally discovered the American nuclear submarines and followed them) said that even the mighty USSR could not ensure the secrecy of the SSBNs, said that their submarines were in charge of the Sea of ​​Okhotsk. And now everything is even worse, so it is necessary to finish the BZHRK, which are easier to hide.
    1. -3
      25 November 2019 20: 44
      And what am I hosting now in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk? It seems that it has long been recognized by the internal sea of ​​Russia, and being there is a violation of borders with all that it implies.
      1. 0
        25 November 2019 20: 56
        The area of ​​the Sea of ​​Okhotsk is 1 km², the UN Commission recognized a plot of 583 thousand square kilometers of the Sea of ​​Okhotsk as part of the Russian continental shelf. I did not find information about the whole sea. It turns out that only on these 000 square meters. km foreigners are prohibited from doing business. But this is a very small piece of the sea. Therefore, I think that the Americans still go there.
        1. +4
          25 November 2019 21: 59
          It turns out that only on these 52000 square meters. km foreigners are prohibited from doing business.
          This is not territorial water, do not confuse. Economic activity is prohibited, but foreign submarines and surface ships can be there freely and with impunity. Provided that there they will not fish and drill wells.
        2. 0
          26 November 2019 21: 17
          The continental shelf is a little different. Here is a map where everything is explained and shown on the continental shelf, which is located in the middle of the sea. http://morvesti.ru/fotobank/analytics/0001/mvr-07-16-0003.jpg
          In general, this question is quite complicated, as it turns out. However, if you look at the map, it is obvious that the Sea of ​​Okhotsk from outside has a longer land length than the sea border and it is probably not so difficult to establish tight control so that not a single submarine can slip through.
    2. 0
      28 November 2019 13: 31
      Well Dudko is an interesting commander. Somehow a disk with him. On this topic. True, it was encrypted by a stranger Nick.
      Poseidon encryption.
      https://shoehanger.livejournal.com/530973.html#comments
      Still here, transferred to himself, so as not to be lost.
      http://samlib.ru/comment/s/semenow_aleksandr_sergeewich333/protivolodochnaioborona-2019?PAGE=3
      Well, in the book he sometimes started foaming. Screen, if interested.

      This is from here.
      http://samlib.ru/s/semenow_aleksandr_sergeewich333/protivolodochnaioborona-2019.shtml
  10. +5
    25 November 2019 20: 24
    What needs to be built is a fact. And the failure of 941 projects smacks of sabotage
    1. ABM
      0
      26 November 2019 17: 31
      there are Ukrainian missiles there - without missiles it makes no sense to keep 50000 tons of trough (the size of Kuzyu)
  11. 0
    25 November 2019 20: 27
    “Even if we assume that until now the Americans have managed to control 80-90% of all our SSBNs on combat duty (the author came across such estimates, which, however, is extremely doubtful)”
    I came across an assessment from the Russian media a couple of years ago. The Russian military tracks the route of American Poseidons (marine submarine hunters) and plots their route on a map. Once, in the Baltic Sea, having plotted the route on a map, they determined that the plane flew to the same place, made a 180-degree turn and flew away. And this was repeated several times. They did not understand what was going on until they plotted the route of the Russian submarine on the same map. It turns out that it was lying at the point where the plane made a 180-degree turn. That is, it found it, made sure it was in place, and left. I repeat - information from the Russian press.
    1. +2
      25 November 2019 21: 45
      Do you know what is strange? Nuclear submarines do not lie on the ground, due to the cooling of the reactor ...
      1. + 10
        25 November 2019 21: 53
        There are different models of nuclear submarines; new water intakes for cooling the reactor are located on top of the hull of submarines, and therefore they can lie on the ground.
      2. +4
        25 November 2019 23: 44
        Quote: Alien From
        Do you know what is strange? Nuclear submarines do not lie on the ground, due to the cooling of the reactor ...
        this has been repeatedly spoken about since the death of the Kursk, but now -
        Quote: eklmn
        Once upon a time Baltic seaPutting the route on the map, they determined that the plane flew to the same place, made a 180 turn and flew away. And so it was repeated several times. They didn’t understand what was going on until the route was plotted on the same map. Russian submarine.
        , You seem to have not carefully read the text ... If you pay attention to the selection, then 1) - the keyword - Baltic (estimate in depth); 2) - there is no word anywhere - atomic (which, by the way, was suggested by point (1)?! Wasn't it?! Maybe that's the question?! Then it's removed?!
      3. -6
        26 November 2019 18: 56
        Quote: Alien From
        Nuclear submarines do not lie on the ground, due to the cooling of the reactor ..

        In 1994, Project 667B SSBN lay on the ground at a depth of 50 m on day 1 of the Svyatonososky Gulf of the Barents Sea for educational purposes for training submarine commanders of the 11th flotilla in command.

        In 1997, Project 949 A “K-442” submarine laid on liquid soil at a BS in the southeastern Pacific Ocean.
        Control of a nuclear submarine when laying on solid ground, surfacing from solid ground.
        The recommended conditions for laying on the ground are as follows:
        30 minutes to the point of laying on the ground:

        a) “Training alarm for laying on the ground!”;

        b) "In places to stand submarine for laying on the ground to cook!";


        - a long stay of a pl with non-kstonless CHBs on silty ground with marine vegetation can lead to dense siltation of the shear gratings, which will make them impossible to blow, and, if uncontrolled, to destroy the CBH;

        - most of the inlets of the seawater system, including the GTZA central cylinder, are located in the lower part of the hull. This leads to the fact that along with sea water, sand, silt, and other small solid particles are entrained in the systems, causing increased wear and clogging of mechanisms
    2. 0
      28 November 2019 13: 38
      Hence
      http://samlib.ru/s/semenow_aleksandr_sergeewich333/protivolodochnaioborona-2019.shtml
  12. The comment was deleted.
    1. +6
      26 November 2019 07: 14
      Rudolph, remember, I once told how we participated in the exercises? This is the question of the noise of the steamships of my division. In order to reason on this topic, you need to visit this topic. And it’s better not to take it. And when the article describes low-noise speeds and modes that do not correspond to reality, well then, how can all this be perceived? Artistic Whistle.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. +1
        26 November 2019 08: 46
        And the conclusions of the article weakly refute? Or just know how to find fault with individual inaccuracies? :) While the author recalls in almost every paragraph that he is not an expert in the matter
        1. 0
          26 November 2019 10: 01
          Judging by the unrequited minus - only to find fault :))
        2. +5
          26 November 2019 11: 52
          Andrey, I didn’t minus you. If not a specialist in this matter, then why all this scribble? You are trying to talk about tanks, and about planes, and about the fleet, and about tactics, etc. Well, it’s impossible to be a specialist in all areas at once.
          My own "steamer" is "Tula". I started my service on it. And if I gave almost half of my conscious life to the navy, I probably have some idea on this issue. But I do not consider myself to be some kind of specialist for the following reasons: firstly, many years have passed since I left the crew, and secondly, in order to be a specialist at the proper level, you need to constantly monitor the topic and deal with it. Many things are simply forgotten. Often there is simply no time to engage in polemics.
          To talk about what types of weapons we need, about issues of tactics and strategy, development, we need to have information at a deeper level, and that’s all our dreams and conjectures. If you want to know my opinion on the 941 project, then I think that this was a dead end with all the positive qualities of the ship. Although they were decommissioned too early, they could still serve and serve. It is clear that the blame for this, including the collapse of the country, and the economic downturn in those years. But at the same time, they began to remake the K-64, and not one of the Sharks, under the carrier of the loshariks, although this boat is more suitable for this with its huge inter-side space. And also they lost a strategic unit.
          1. +1
            26 November 2019 12: 01
            As for the minus - I'm sorry, I did not immediately understand that it was someone else who promoted all my comments. And about everything else, let me thoroughly unsubscribe in the evening, now it is inconvenient from a smartphone. I would like to explain my motives, if you do not mind
          2. The comment was deleted.
            1. +1
              26 November 2019 13: 09
              So we always crawled with one samovar.
            2. 0
              26 November 2019 15: 41
              But with BDRM sometimes there was hemorrhoids. Especially when it goes under one side.


              Dudko wrote that the old BDR under one side, on the contrary, was more easily detected in the spectral analysis of noise. Type blades are clearly identified, when one screw threshes, I still don’t remember something

              A very good parachute, though hunchbacked.


              Hump ​​in the Arctic had its advantages?
              1. +1
                26 November 2019 16: 56
                BDR and BDRM with external similarity are still different ships.
                1. +1
                  26 November 2019 20: 27
                  Yes, but not that. I found a fragment.

                  At first, with great distrust, but then with increasing confidence, we worked out the identification,
                  classification and tracking of the boat, using only passive means of observation and
                  using the features of the GAPRPK SN.
                  One by one, the characteristic unmasking signs of the field began to emerge.
                  The main discrete components of submarine noise (DS GAP) and the maxima of these components in directions relative to the ship's course; clearly expressed work of one shaft line and a clear manifestation of shaft-blade components, due to a violation of the laminar flow on the boat's propeller;
                  also changing the load created by shifting the vertical rudder to maintain course when the propulsion plant is operating on one side;

                  ...
                  We found out that the recommended single-shaft mode of movement for the RPK SN violates stealth and makes it much easier to track our boats.


                  Confused a little.

                  I don’t want to argue here, I wonder just why such a discrepancy
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                    1. 0
                      28 November 2019 12: 23
                      Well, in general, they then worked with the acoustic spectrum using non-standard imported equipment. rather than just writing GAP. And honestly, I have not met evidence that before them someone did it.

                      Yes, and a trip to Bangor is behind them.
                      1. The comment was deleted.
                      2. 0
                        28 November 2019 14: 54
                        That is, Dudko does not finish?
                      3. The comment was deleted.
                    2. +1
                      28 November 2019 20: 12
                      Rudolph, but saw a photo of the BDRM screws in the factory? As far as I can remember, there have always been five-bladed, and recently a seven-bladed photo slipped through. Interestingly, these are real photos? Did not see?
                      1. The comment was deleted.
                      2. The comment was deleted.
                      3. 0
                        28 November 2019 23: 34
                        By the way, the question is - is it normal that such information gets on the Internet? Ryazan screws are easily accessible from various angles. It seems to me that this should not have happened.
                      4. The comment was deleted.
                      5. +1
                        29 November 2019 00: 20
                        Yes, I understand how such news is. It's just that the further we go, the stranger our policy in the area of ​​secrecy becomes. They want to keep secret to death what should be brought out for public discussion, and what no one should even guess about its existence is quietly lying around on a bunch of websites. Like screws in Ryazan.

                        Somehow the amers had a case, a sailor or a junior officer from the SAW threw an old telephone into the trash but forgot to erase the photos from the boat that were there.

                        He sat down for some decent time in the end. And in general, in the data array that the United States publishes about its aircraft, there is really no interesting technical information.

                        Everything is somehow strange here.

                        Although it is Borey that could be substituted if there are devices for simulating noise, for example, the "increased noise mode" of the TsNKP or a simulator of some discrete, in order to give the enemy a false HAP.

                        But something I don’t believe in that.
                      6. The comment was deleted.
                      7. +1
                        29 November 2019 10: 50
                        Maybe you're right. On the other hand, they still graze ours continuously. Especially new boats, which do not have a portrait.
                        But in the news, such things are announced this, of course, the bottom.
                      8. The comment was deleted.
                      9. 0
                        29 November 2019 17: 00
                        Quote from rudolf
                        Well, how do you like the official messages of the Ministry of Defense from the category:

                        In fact, since Soviet times, there have been treaties on the limitation of strategic offensive arms, and we, like the Americans, are obliged to notify the opposite side about the movements of our strategic nuclear forces that fall into these treaties. It's just that they never reported this in the media before, and the Americans always knew from us which missile carrier was going where or where it was going to exercise. Even the launch of any civilian "Union" with astronauts on board is known to the Americans at least a month in advance - these are the rules.
              2. 0
                28 November 2019 13: 48
                It seems they worked in Okhotsk with the AU. The BDRs had just started arriving then, and Podolsk was on the BS at that time. They chased him like hell. This was during the preparation for the march to Bangor.
                So according to his book.
                I had pluses, but the problem is how to dump multi-ton pieces of ice afterwards and open the mine.
          3. 0
            26 November 2019 16: 31
            Quote: Andrey NM
            that it was a dead end with all the positive qualities of the ship.

            exactly! a technical masterpiece, but strategic stupidity ... request
          4. +7
            26 November 2019 17: 43
            Quote: Andrey NM
            If not a specialist in this matter, then why all this scribble?

            The answer is very simple - due to the almost complete absence of open publications by professionals on these issues.
            That is, there are many people who did not serve in the fleet, but were very interested in the fleet. Personally, with my -4,5 in both eyes, I tried to pop into a sailor, but, of course, was sent - even for the 90s it was considered too much. So ... I'm interested :))))
            However, when you have been studying the history of the fleet for more than a dozen years and at the same time diligently following the news on the modern fleet, then gradually doubts arise that today the fleet is going in the right direction. And the further - the more such doubts. And I'm not alone. But there are no reasonable answers, and even asking the pros "over a glass of tea" you often get completely contradictory information.
            At the same time, I, naturally, do not pretend to be told military secrets. But I (and not only me) would like to understand how our powers-that-be are going to develop the fleet, what tasks are set for the fleet and how these tasks are supposed to be solved. What, for example, is the Defense Ministry counting on by building a series of 8 Boreyevs, but not replenishing the general-purpose forces, not developing a system of naval reconnaissance and target designation, EGSONPO, etc. I don't see any consistency in the development of the fleet. There is no pro who would say: to solve the tasks of the Navy, we need such and such a composition of the fleet, this and this will be laid down, this is in development, etc., and we are going to fight this in something like this and that. All this is completely unclassified information, the same US Navy gives about itself and this is much more.
            Accordingly, there is a feeling of big problems, but what can I do, besides how to talk about it? Nothing. And I'm, excuse me, a taxpayer, whose money is also used to build the defense of the Russian Federation. And the role of the cog "sit and do not tweet" does not suit me.
            My articles are articles of a person who is trying to collect at least some holistic picture of the state of the Russian Navy from the scraps of scattered publicly available information. And, as it was quite rightly noted in the comments, my "gesheft" from such articles is the appearance in the comments of professionals who, no, no, and will share this or that unclassified, but also inaccessible to the common mortal information.
            But at the same time, you need to understand what I see as my main audience of people who are not professional military sailors, but who are interested in the fleet, that is, the same as me. In other words, this is an unprofessional article for non-professionals trying to figure out what happens with our fleet :))))) For such people, my article is just a squeeze, systematization of information that goes over the network and not only, and my personal conclusions, which can make people think about something that they did not take into account before, give them some thoughts.
            At the same time, I, of course, do not pretend to be the Truth in the Last Instance and gladly accept and study any reasoned objections. You see, if I, with my conclusions, would besiege the Ministry of Defense, demanding to build the fleet the way, and only the way it is written in my articles, it would be very funny and even a little sad. But as material for discussion, for exchange of views, my articles are quite suitable, and so that an unprepared reader, God forbid, does not take them for irrefutable facts, I write through the word "the author is not a professional", "according to some information," "for sure unknown, but perhaps "etc. etc.
            I believe that in this capacity on the Internet site my articles have every right to life.
            Quote: Andrey NM
            You are trying to talk about tanks, and about planes, and about the fleet, and about tactics, etc. Well, it’s impossible to be a specialist in all areas at once.

            It all depends on the level of immersion in the question. For example, one of the most brilliant historians of the Russian Empire and the USSR, Tarle Eugene Viktorovich wrote on a wide spectrum: this is the history of Italy, the French Revolution, and Napoleon Bonaparte, and Senyavin, Ushakov and Nakhimov, and the Northern War, and the Crimean ... And that no book is a masterpiece. I don’t put myself close to Tarle, for me it’s an unattainable ideal in creativity, but in my articles I don’t aim at scientific research ... hi
            1. -1
              26 November 2019 18: 48
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              What, for example, does the MO counts on, building a series of 8 Boreyevs, but not replenishing the general-purpose forces,

              The fact that these strategic objects can do without a surface fleet when performing combat services. Certain rescue systems are needed for them, but only within reasonable limits. And then why did you decide that everything will be limited to this series only?
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              without developing a system of marine reconnaissance and target designation,

              In fact, the strategic reconnaissance of the General Staff of the General Staff gives them goals in the first place, because their main task is to defeat the continental territory of the United States and other countries, and not a group of enemy surface ships. And then why did you get the idea that specific naval reconnaissance is not conducted and is not being improved, at least from the point of view of modernizing reconnaissance ships or their orbiting satellites?
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              I do not see a systematic development of the fleet.

              And how can you see it if the development of the fleet is planned by the armament program for at least a decade, and in reality for longer periods? And why did you assume that this is not a state secret, known to a very narrow circle of government and military officials.
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              All this is absolutely unclassified information, the same US Navy gives about itself and this and much more.

              And what, are we simply obliged to take an example from them in this matter? I don’t think so, because it was thanks to the regime of secrecy that we forced the Americans to spend huge amounts of money on developing unpromising weapons or, for example, the same shuttle, the idea of ​​which they were planted in the form of a narrowly focused printed work of a Soviet scientist in the early sixties.
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              You see, if I were to besiege the MO with my conclusions, demanding to build the fleet in such a way, and only as it was written in my articles, it would be very funny and even a little sad.

              Never mind - those who determine our arms policy are hardly interested in the opinions of those who write on forums on the Internet. So it makes no difference to them whether they are condemned on the Internet or not - for them these are just abstract arguments of people who have no idea about the real situation in this area of ​​armaments.
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              I believe that in this capacity on the Internet site my articles have every right to life.

              Of course they have, since so many people read them and express an opinion that does not even agree with your conclusions. Maybe this will give you the opportunity in the future to substantiate your ideas more reasonably. But do not blame those who chuckle at some of your conclusions - they have exactly the same right to their opinion.
              1. 0
                26 November 2019 21: 11
                The fact that these strategic objects can do without a surface fleet when performing combat services.


                Can't even close
                1. +1
                  27 November 2019 11: 43
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  Can't even close

                  You want to say that our SSBNs are accompanied by a surface fleet all the way to the coast of America?
                  Then it’s not at all clear why they are contained, if we can use surface ships as a platform for launching ballistic missiles - at least it will be cheaper.
                  I don’t see any logic in your statement, although the very fact of using a surface fleet for SSBN campaigns hardly makes sense to deny - but this is more for the safety of the campaign, and not as an operational necessity.
              2. -1
                27 November 2019 19: 22
                Quote: ccsr
                The fact that these strategic objects can do without a surface fleet when performing combat services.

                Can not. Surface ships are one of the necessary components of an anti-aircraft defense system: if you do not have them, then you do not have an effective anti-enemy submarine defense system and you enable the enemy to deploy such a system.
                Quote: ccsr
                And then why did you decide that everything will be limited to this series only?

                The question is off topic - it is unclear how to deploy these, much more?
                Quote: ccsr
                In fact, the strategic intelligence of the GRU GS gives them goals first of all

                In fact, SMRTS is needed to identify in peacetime - crowding out or escorting, and in war - the destruction of ship-hunters for the SSBNs.
                Quote: ccsr
                then why did you get the idea that specific naval reconnaissance is not conducted and is not being improved, at least from the point of view of modernizing reconnaissance ships or their orbiting satellites?

                I will not ask which reconnaissance ships are the ones who postulate the uselessness of the surface fleet. And what kind of satellite upgrades can be discussed. I’ll just say that reconnaissance ships are being built for completely different purposes, and the satellite constellation of the Russian Federation is withering before our eyes. At the same time, the Navy does not have specialized reconnaissance aircraft
                Quote: ccsr
                And how can you see it if the development of the fleet is planned by the armament program for at least a decade, but really for longer lines?

                I see shipbuilding programs for a decade :)))) The GPV 2011-2020 was opened, and today's trends and bookmarks are also well known. You can describe it in one word: a mess.
                Quote: ccsr
                And where did you get the idea that this is not a state secret

                It’s not a secret. Legislatively :)))) Although soon it may be.
                In fact, it makes sense to secret only in order not to defame the existing government with subsequent failures. The rest of the veil of secrecy can be built only against your people, but not probable opponents.
                In general, as was the case in one of the Moscow libraries in the USSR, foreign magazines are not issued for viewing, because they contain photos of Soviet secret military equipment :)))
                Quote: ccsr
                And what, are we simply obliged to take an example from them in this matter?

                Yes.
                Quote: ccsr
                I don’t think so, because it was thanks to the regime of secrecy that we forced the Americans to spend huge amounts of money on developing unpromising weapons

                What are the futile weapons of the US Navy :))))
                Quote: ccsr
                for example, the same shuttle, the idea of ​​creating which they planted in the form of narrowly focused printed work of a Soviet scientist in the early sixties

                In fact, it was like this - the US leadership requested the design of the reusable spacecraft, they did it, the leadership was horrified by its cost and refused. But the cunning gentlemen from NASA managed to cram the project, under the mock of a frankly wretched and obviously erroneous business plan. The lobby is everything :))) One of the first victories of American large corporations over common sense
                Quote: ccsr
                Never mind - those who determine our military policy are hardly interested in the opinions of those who write on online forums

                Nothing, a drop wears away a stone :)))
                Quote: ccsr
                But do not blame those who chuckle at some of your conclusions - they have exactly the same right to their opinion.

                Of course. I just really want this opinion to be expressed in the form of constructive criticism. And laugh as much as you like!
                1. 0
                  27 November 2019 20: 45
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Can not. Surface ships are one of the necessary components of the PLO system:

                  They can. You are clearly not in the subject, because initially the SSBNs themselves were conceived as completely autonomous combat platforms for ballistic missiles.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  The question is off topic - it is unclear how to deploy these, much more?

                  First of all, you don’t know the exact calculations, which will determine the exact number of necessary SSBNs when they can deliver an unacceptable blow to the United States during campaigns.
                  And secondly, you do not know the plan to write off and replace the existing SSBNs at least for the next decade.
                  So to judge the number of required SSBNs can only be judged with a high degree of probability.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  and in the military - the destruction of ship-hunters for the SSBN.

                  And if all the "wartime" takes less than an hour - who are you going to displace there?
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  I will not ask which reconnaissance ships are the ones who postulate the uselessness of the surface fleet.

                  The surface fleet can be combat and auxiliary, and you, as a "land admiral," should know that. By the way, the functions of reconnaissance ships were at one time performed by the ships of the Academy of Sciences and other civilian ships that were not part of the Navy.

                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  I see shipbuilding programs for a decade :)))) The GPV 2011-2020 was opened, and today's trends and bookmarks are also well known.

                  Dream, and do not forget that a change in the program can occur for different reasons. There was such a ship "Ural", it was planned to build a couple more, and where is all this now?
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Yes.

                  You can do it personally, but as they say, you can’t call anyone for naval specialists.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  What are the futile weapons of the US Navy

                  I haven't looked into this specifically, but the example of the "unkillable" F-117A stealth military aircraft in Yugoslavia showed that the Americans bought into our disinformation.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  In fact, it was like this - the US leadership requested the design of the reusable spacecraft, they did it, the leadership was horrified by its cost and refused.

                  You probably don't know how it actually happened, because even Academician Chertok couldn't understand why the Americans abandoned the Saturn-5 in favor of the shuttle. So you can continue to guess, but believe me, the more you make categorical statements, the more people understand that you have a poor understanding of the essence of the issue.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  And laugh as much as you like!

                  Thank you very much for giving a reason for this.
                  1. 0
                    28 November 2019 12: 16
                    They can. You are clearly not in the subject, because initially the SSBNs themselves were conceived as completely autonomous combat platforms for ballistic missiles.


                    Wrong. This is at the stage of combat patrol, but not at the deployment stage - Andrey told you everything correctly
                    1. +1
                      28 November 2019 18: 00
                      Quote: timokhin-aa
                      Wrong. This is at the stage of combat patrol, but not at the deployment stage - Andrey told you everything correctly

                      Nonsense, because the Main Operational Directorate of the General Staff is of little interest to who, how and where is deployed, the main thing for them is how many targets we can hit with what is actually on duty. So all your fuss about the deployment of those who are planning a nuclear strike is of no interest at all - come to terms with it. And all the fuss about this had a different basis, and as I believe, it was the desire of naval commanders to have more stars on their shoulder straps, that is why the surface fleet was inflated in Soviet times.
                      1. 0
                        28 November 2019 19: 07
                        Nonsense, because the main operational management of the General Staff is not much interested in who, how and where is deployed, the main thing for them is how much we can hit targets with what really stands on duty.


                        I believe that the logic of the army is just that.
                        But the problem is that this does not work with the fleet - is there no pair of important types of support? The number of targets hit will be zero for any number of missiles and their carriers.

                        Always.

                        This is how it works.
                      2. +1
                        28 November 2019 19: 32
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        I believe that the logic of the army is just that.

                        This is the logic of the General Staffists - they generally spit on all your radiance with galloons and postures, regardless of the type of troops.
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        But the problem is that this does not work with the fleet

                        Only one thing works with all the armed forces - this is the ratio of the effectiveness and cost of one or another kind of armed forces. The strategic nuclear forces cannot adapt to the fleet - on the contrary, the fleet must adapt to them and increase their share in the strategic nuclear forces, but having proved that they can fulfill the tasks assigned to them.
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        The number of targets hit will be zero for any number of missiles and their carriers.

                        Then they will abandon such an underwater fleet. But I do not believe in your conclusions, because on the contrary I believe that the future of the fleet is for the SSBN, and the tendency will be to reduce the surface combat component of the fleet and reduce other types of submarines.
                      3. 0
                        28 November 2019 20: 53
                        Then they will abandon such an underwater fleet.


                        With the surface is the same. This is generally the basic feature of the fleet - they are either ready as a whole or a set of floating targets. There is no middle ground.

                        And without him, our "partners" will one day put a barbed wire along their own bank, so to speak figuratively.
                      4. +1
                        28 November 2019 21: 07
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        With the surface is the same. This is generally the basic feature of the fleet - they are either ready as a whole or a set of floating targets. There is no middle ground.

                        I look at this more optimistically - optimization is necessary, it will be painful for someone, but the submarine fleet will be made such that the Americans will be afraid of our SSBNs not only in the northern seas. This is the dialectic of the development of naval weapons, and we either go in this direction, or abandon the fleet as an element of the strategic nuclear forces. But this should not be done under any circumstances.
                      5. 0
                        28 November 2019 22: 02
                        Optimism should be based on something realistic and not on fantasies completely divorced from reality
                      6. +1
                        29 November 2019 16: 13
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        Optimism should be based on something realistic and not on fantasies completely divorced from reality

                        You want to say that new submarines under construction are projects divorced from reality? Oh well...
                      7. 0
                        29 November 2019 20: 39
                        Would you know how they are built and what is crammed into it and why ...
                      8. +1
                        30 November 2019 11: 04
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        Would you know how they are built and what is crammed into it and why ...

                        I admit that not everything is as great as we would like, but nevertheless it still needs to be done if we think about the future of our children and grandchildren. By the way, what problems I have with ships, I know at least from the example of "Ural", tk. I knew some people who stuffed him with technology in the eighties.
                      9. 0
                        3 December 2019 11: 37
                        Alexander, in my opinion you are bred. lol
                        The interlocutor is clearly not in the subject, so I stopped responding to him.
                        Kindergarten with educational program is not enough.
                      10. +1
                        April 27 2020 09: 53
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        I believe that the logic of the army is just that.

                        This is not the logic of the army, but the logic of military professionals who come from the realities of modern nuclear war with our main adversary, and which, according to various estimates, will last from several tens of minutes to an hour or two. Therefore, everything that does not fit into this interval will be redundant and will not bring us any benefit in any scenario.
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        The number of targets hit will be zero for any number of missiles and their carriers.

                        The goals have long been explored, and they are constantly monitored, so there will be no zero option.
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        This is how it works.

                        We were taught different in Soviet times, and then everything worked as it should. I don’t think that everything has changed now.
                  2. -1
                    28 November 2019 17: 21
                    Quote: ccsr
                    Thank you very much for giving a reason for this.

                    Great please. But alas, looking at your next comment, a proverb is involuntarily recalled, which begins with the words: "Laughter for no reason ...."
                    Quote: ccsr
                    They can. You are clearly not in the subject, because initially the SSBNs themselves were conceived as completely autonomous combat platforms for ballistic missiles.

                    Well, all Soviet admirals were also not in the subject, so with the advent of intercontinental SLBMs, SSBNs were deployed in "bastions", under the cover of NK and aviation and multipurpose submarine forces.
                    Quote: ccsr
                    First of all, you don’t know the exact calculations, which will determine the exact number of necessary SSBNs when they can deliver an unacceptable blow to the United States during campaigns.

                    Your objection would make sense if the SSBNs could successfully operate without MSON. But they can’t, therefore, alas, there is no sense in your words.
                    Quote: ccsr
                    And secondly, you do not know the plan to write off and replace the existing SSBNs at least for the next decade.

                    Also to me, binomial of Newton. "Dolphins" in 2024-2030 will be 40 years old (they were commissioned with an interval of a year), but in fact it is time for them to retire yesterday. These are good, but already old ships.
                    Quote: ccsr
                    And if all the "wartime" takes less than an hour - who are you going to displace there?

                    Get ready and re-read my comment again.
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    In fact, SMRC is needed to identify and in peacetime - crowding out or escortingand in the military - the destruction of ship-hunters for the SSBN.

                    Is that understandable? :)))) And if you do not do it in peacetime, then the war will end for the SSBN when trying to occupy the starting corridor. The speaker will hear the opening covers of the torpedo tubes of the enemy MAPL and ... that's it.
                    Quote: ccsr
                    The surface fleet can be combat and auxiliary, and you, as a "land admiral," should know that. By the way, the functions of reconnaissance ships were at one time performed by the ships of the Academy of Sciences and other civilian ships that were not part of the Navy.

                    That is, do you think that the wars of the Academy of Sciences will provide you with intelligence? In the absence of NK? And after such nonsense do you blame me for lack of professionalism? M-d ...
                    Quote: ccsr
                    Dream, and do not forget that a program change can occur for various reasons.

                    This is not relevant to the issue under discussion, because even the initial programs were very crooked and unbalanced.
                    Quote: ccsr
                    You can do it personally, but as they say, you can’t call anyone for naval specialists.

                    Yeah, only the privacy issues are determined by completely different people.
                    Quote: ccsr
                    I didn't do this on purpose, but the example of the "unbreakable" military stealth aircraft F-117A in Yugoslavia showed that the Americans bought into our disinformation.

                    You did not do this on purpose, so you managed to pile up more stupid things than usual.
                    First, you talked about the fleet. And the F-117 has nothing to do with the fleet, it is the Air Force. So my thesis that we forced the United States to spend some money on the wrong weapons there failed miserably
                    Secondly, no misinformation in the story of the F-117A exists in nature. If you look at the report of the air defense missile system commander, it was possible to capture the "invisibility" at a distance of about 13 km. The Americans burst out - no stealth will work at such distances.
                    Quote: ccsr
                    As it was in reality, you hardly know, because even Academic Chertok could not understand why the Americans abandoned Saturn 5 in favor of the shuttle

                    You are touchingly inconsistent. That is, I cannot draw conclusions about the shuttle, because "even the academician did not understand", but everything is clear and understandable to you :))))
                    You have a very high opinion of yourself. Alas, completely unfounded
                    1. 0
                      28 November 2019 18: 35
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Well, all Soviet admirals were also not in the subject, so with the advent of intercontinental SLBMs, SSBNs were deployed in "bastions", under the cover of NK and aviation and multipurpose submarine forces.

                      You are too young and naive, that’s why you have no idea how in the Soviet era posts were created, titles and awards were given. So I’ll tell some jacket about the Soviet military leaders, and not me — I have seen too many reorganizations and the development of different systems over the years of my service to understand what was sometimes hidden behind it. As an example, the Kiev Naval Political School, which solely trained fleet officers without the sea itself. Ask how this happened, maybe the veil and subside ...
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Your objection would make sense if the SSBNs could successfully operate without MSON.

                      Remember this once and for all your life - each element of the Soviet triad of strategic nuclear forces was required to act autonomously in ANY situation, and this was laid down at the conceptual level. That is why the Strategic Missile Forces were even separated into a separate branch of the armed forces from the Missile Forces and artillery, so that they would not depend on anyone at all. The same was laid down for the SSBNs - they were left in the fleet only because they would not have been able to handle their infrastructure, just like long-range aviation in the Air Force. Although I know that the issue of separating the strategic nuclear forces into a single structure within the Ministry of Defense was raised back in the sixties, but due to financial and organizational difficulties it did not pass.
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      That is, do you think that the wars of the Academy of Sciences will provide you with intelligence?

                      They even have a better chance of surviving than warships, which will be immediately destroyed in the first strike. By the way, than the intelligence information received from a civilian ship such as "Cosmonaut Yuri Gagarin" or "Academician Korolev", on which the intelligence officers were with their equipment, is less valuable than the information that military reconnaissance ships receive in peacetime?
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      You did not do this on purpose, so you managed to pile up more stupid things than usual.
                      First, you talked about the fleet. And the F-117 has nothing to do with the fleet, it is the Air Force.

                      The lack of systemic military knowledge is a big gap in your work, which is why you don’t even understand the analogies.
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Secondly, there is no misinformation in the story of the F-117A in nature.

                      I say that you have a superficial knowledge of some issues, and do not know on the basis of what the idea of ​​"invisibility" was born.
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      That is, I cannot draw conclusions about the shuttle, because "even the academician did not understand," but everything is clear and understandable to you

                      Naturally, you did not read his memoirs, where he describes the story of the shuttles.
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      You have a very high opinion of yourself. Alas, completely unfounded

                      May be so. But it is at least based on certain knowledge gained during the service. But what your conclusions are based on is still a mystery to me.
              3. 0
                28 November 2019 13: 50
                Strategic intelligence of the GRU
                Operational management of the Navy.
                1. +1
                  28 November 2019 19: 19
                  Quote: Polinom
                  Strategic intelligence of the GRU
                  Operational management of the Navy.

                  The main body coordinating and responsible for all military reconnaissance of the armed forces is the GRU General Staff, therefore only it provides the final information for the General Purpose General Staff - this was laid back in Soviet times. The operational command of the Navy only receives instructions from the Main Directorate of the General Staff and does not have the authority to independently plan strikes of the strategic nuclear forces of the fleet. At least it used to be, but I don’t think that now something has changed dramatically.
                  1. 0
                    3 December 2019 11: 39
                    You are mistaken, but I will not edit. So be it.
                    1. +1
                      3 December 2019 16: 16
                      Quote: Polinom
                      You are mistaken, but I will not edit.

                      You want to say that the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy can PERSONALLY order the use of strategic nuclear forces and will be executed by the submarine commander?
                      As far as I understand, this in principle cannot be, not for nothing that there is the 12th Directorate of Defense Ministry.
        3. 0
          26 November 2019 16: 29
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          And the conclusions of the article weakly refute?

          banal - see below... you don't have a systemic analysis, but variations on a given theme - if it's not a secret - not from Makeyevka... wink
          1. -1
            26 November 2019 17: 44
            Quote: ser56
            corny - see below ...

            I won’t even read
            Quote: ser56
            you do not have a system analysis, but variations on a given topic

            Sorry, but you absolutely do not know what system analysis is :)))
            1. 0
              26 November 2019 18: 20
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              I won’t even read

              your right, live in your illusions ...
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Sorry, but you absolutely do not know what system analysis is :)))

              1) I understand that the complex appeared ... bully
              2) let's say, you can't even imagine what I know and to what extent... hi I’ll say that I’ve been to specialized museums in Snezhensk and Albuquerque, which I reasonably believe you will never get into ... hi however, if it is convenient for you to be a know-it-all, I don’t dare interfere... feel
              1. 0
                27 November 2019 19: 25
                Quote: ser56
                let's just say that you can’t even imagine what I know and to what extent ... hi I’ll say that I was in specialized museums

                You have just brilliantly confirmed my thesis. I tell you about system analysis - you tell me about museums :))))
                1. +2
                  28 November 2019 14: 46
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  You have just brilliantly confirmed my thesis.

                  in your wet dreams hi
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  I tell you about system analysis - you tell me about museums :))))

                  I started a conversation about system analysis,
                  Quote: ser56
                  you do not have a system analysis, but variations on a given topic

                  you doubted my knowledge
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Sorry, but you absolutely do not know what system analysis is :)))

                  I cited some facts from my biography that tell a knowledgeable person a lot about what - for example, on the territory of which institution is the museum in Snezhinsk hi or in Albuquerque - I’m chewing VNIITF and a / b Kirkland hi
                  - ergo - you are an ignoramus in this matter, you have lost the thread of discussion and slipped to fraud ... hi
    2. 0
      26 November 2019 08: 42
      It may well be. Klimov wrote about this, but he seems to be not a submariner
      1. 0
        26 November 2019 15: 37
        Just a submariner. True, how he and his diploma entered the submarine - an interesting question, but he served there.
        1. +2
          26 November 2019 16: 47
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          Just a submariner. True, how he and his diploma entered the submarine - an interesting question, but he served there.

          VVMUPPovtsy with their diplomas were not carried anywhere. At one time they were sent to the disposal of the headquarters of the Northern Fleet, from there - to the aviation regiment on the TU-16 as navigators. I have 2 comrades, twin brothers got it. We barely fled from there. Then they took part in "Behemoths". But another one did not escape. He flew as a navigator, then dropped. In civilian life, at first he flew as a navigator on a Tu-154, but with the departure of the "carcasses" navigators as a class began to disappear. I had to retrain urgently. Now a Boeing commander.
    3. 0
      26 November 2019 21: 20
      It seemed strange to me too. As far as I remember, the boat was a little noisy only at speeds less than 10 knots.
  13. +4
    25 November 2019 20: 39
    The Russian Federation has its own chips for the formation of strategic nuclear forces (heavy ICBMs, light PGRKs), which provide crushing and inevitability of a retaliatory strike (missile defense, depending on external target designation and incapacitated by a hollow EMP, should not be offered).

    It is only necessary to ensure a 5-minute readiness for the launch of the Russian ICBMs after receiving the ZGRLS information about the launch of the enemy’s infantry ballistic regiment and the Russian SSBNs can be removed from service. And for insurance, we always have PGRK and there will be a Poseidon NPA.

    Therefore, it is high time to stop following the cargo cult and replicate ultra-expensive Western decisions in the area of ​​strategic nuclear forces.
    1. +2
      25 November 2019 22: 02
      and there will be NPA Poseidon.
      Is Poseidon not based on submarines? And do not they need to go unnoticed to release the Poseidons?
      1. +2
        25 November 2019 22: 06
        Based on the range of the Poseidon RV with the YSU of several million km, the use of nuclear submarines is clearly a temporary solution for the period of mastering new technology.
        1. +7
          26 November 2019 00: 45
          NPA "Poseidon" with YSU in several million km


          Well, when will they be allowed to go online through the medical board?
          1. 0
            26 November 2019 02: 25
            They won’t let you in ...
            1. 0
              26 November 2019 13: 44
              They’ll let me through, but such a thing will destroy the ranks of VO commentators ... laughing
              1. 0
                26 November 2019 16: 33
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                They’ll let me through

                maybe based on the tasks of misinformation of partners, you should be banned? love
              2. +2
                26 November 2019 17: 31
                Yes, you flatter yourself. You have in every article "Urgently! The Americans will soon untie the atomic armageddon and attack Russia. Because they do not like the Chinese. You would not be bothered with a reference for accessing the Internet."
                1. 0
                  26 November 2019 20: 07
                  They will not untie soon, but have the technical ability, cause and actively build up the potential of such actions.

                  It is a fact. Fuses on the W76-1 are a fact. Removing restrictions on ultra-small charges is a fact. Modern B-61 to improve accuracy - a fact.

                  This is already real or is happening or has happened. The fact that your consciousness defends itself against these facts by refusing to believe in them is your problem and nothing more.
                  1. 0
                    27 November 2019 15: 11
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    Not soon untied, but have the technical ability

                    She appeared in 1945 ... request
                    1. 0
                      28 November 2019 12: 17
                      Well, count how many times they were just about enough to hit. And they wanted
                      1. 0
                        28 November 2019 14: 48
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        they were just about enough to hit. And they wanted

                        they want now, but they are afraid ... hi so you do not need to flog a fever - although complacency is not reasonable ...
                      2. 0
                        28 November 2019 14: 57
                        Then they were missing a little bit all the time. We didn’t have time here with bombs, here with green missiles in Europe and so on to Korea.

                        We walked along the edge of the second half of the 40s
                      3. 0
                        28 November 2019 17: 12
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        Then they were missing a little bit all the time.

                        this is a competent strategy ... hi
                      4. 0
                        28 November 2019 17: 14
                        This is a game of Russian roulette. In fact, lucky then.
                      5. 0
                        28 November 2019 17: 46
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        . In fact, lucky then.

                        as there Suvorov - Once luck, two luck ... request
              3. 0
                28 November 2019 00: 16
                Sorry, I sent the wrong remark. Lyapsus manus.
              4. 0
                28 November 2019 13: 52
                Can not wait. good
    2. 0
      26 November 2019 04: 17
      In a recent article, a strong argument was made (among many) for maintaining the SSBN, namely, the degradation of the managing elite of the likely enemy, for which the PGRK, the silo ICBM, but not SSBNs, may become empty words.
      1. +2
        26 November 2019 07: 29
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        In some recent article, a strong argument was made (among many) for maintaining the SSBN, namely, the degradation of the ruling elite of a potential enemy

        This was in a previous article by the author of this article. ;)
      2. 0
        26 November 2019 17: 42
        The type of elite who thinks that all nuclear missiles can only be placed on nuclear submarines. And if the enemy has no nuclear submarines, then there is no danger, he can be killed. Well, yes, this is the author wrote in the previous article. But something tells me that this is Zadornov's "Well, stupid!" makes us stupid. So the author fell under this Zadornov's delusion.
    3. +1
      26 November 2019 16: 32
      Quote: Operator
      Therefore, it is high time to stop following the cargo cult and replicate ultra-expensive Western decisions in the area of ​​strategic nuclear forces.

      Bravo! love
    4. +1
      26 November 2019 18: 54
      Quote: Operator
      It is only necessary to ensure a 5-minute readiness for the launch of Russian ICBMs after receiving the data of the ZRLS about the launch of the enemy’s infantry ballistic regiment

      It is too late - we will have no chance to survive, even if we destroy the enemy later. Therefore, the task is to uncover preparations for a nuclear war even earlier, in order to try to preempt their attack by launching our strategic nuclear missiles. It is not for nothing that they are betting on hypersonic weapons - this is a remarkable factor.
  14. +1
    25 November 2019 20: 57
    Another attempt to put a good face on a bad game. Yes, to put it mildly, everything is bad with us and the underwater component of the nuclear triad is not capable of completing the task, but it’s okay, we need to continue.
    The trouble is that it the dearest and as if not the most ineffective part of our strategic nuclear forces.. The question is why? So as not to lose competence? And will it be possible at all to catch up with a potential enemy in this direction? It is impossible to decide on the AUG, neither theoretically nor practically, now it is up to the SSBNs.. The main question is, will other parts of the strategic nuclear forces be able to compensate for the loss of this component of the triad? Let's start with the Aerospace Forces, now there is a massive modernization of strategic aviation and due to the fact that this tool is maximally universal, there is sense in this.. Even if (I hope) it is never used for its intended purpose, it is quite possible to use it with conventional weapons, progress in missile technology easily allows this without the slightest risk to the carriers, therefore it is a good and correct thing. Let's move on to the Strategic Missile Forces, everything is simple here, this is the support and the only reliable guarantee of the inevitability of our nuclear strike, nothing will stop it, not a preventive strike, not weather conditions, not the mythical missile defense in Eastern Europe or the USA. Accordingly, with the new weapons that are methodically supplied to the troops, this type of weapons will continue to occupy a leading role in our strategic nuclear forces. Therefore, if there is still some sense in strategic aviation, then in the SSBN it simply does not exist! Technological, strategic and tactical lag puts an end to this segment of the strategic nuclear forces. It is expensive, useless, and therefore not necessary. It is better to spend funds on the same Aerospace Forces (they will always find work), as well as missile technologies and the Strategic Missile Forces. Two components of the strategic nuclear forces are quite sufficient, there is no need to waste small resources, we are not the USSR, the possibilities are much more modest (although having gotten rid of 14 weights, it will still be necessary to calculate how it really is). SSBNs were relevant during the times of weakness of the Strategic Missile Forces (and this problem was solved in the 80s), but these times have passed, and colossal investments in the fleet remained, therefore they tried to use it somehow, today almost nothing remains from the legacy of the USSR, so the question is, is it necessary to start this mess again and is it possible to get by with other equally (in fact, much more) reliable tools.. In addition, it will be cheaper and more practical for the Armed Forces as a whole..
    1. + 13
      25 November 2019 21: 18
      From the point of view of common sense, to solve the problem of containment, silo-based ICBMs are enough - they are cheap, effective if there are a lot of them and at least 25% of their warheads reach the enemy - that's all, put out the light, how the state will cease to exist, but ...

      But we are dealing with people, people tend to believe their own propaganda. The presence of silo-based ICBMs alone creates a psychological problem - someone in the Pentagon or the Oval Office can sincerely believe in their own missile defense and take a risk...

      The presence in the composition of nuclear forces - long-range aviation with long-range missiles, silo ICBMs, PGRK, the SSBN makes one think about the possibility of counteracting all threats and sharply reduces the likelihood of inter-ear ganglion failure by the general and the US leadership. Poseidons with petrels serve the same purpose - it’s scary when an untracked torpedo with a bomb on board can fly somewhere - and that’s why it’s for fighting :)

      So the multiplicity of carriers is necessary - at least from the point of view of the psychology of decision-makers - to believe that they can intercept all carriers and missiles launched from them, if there are many types of carriers, it is much more complicated.
      1. 0
        25 November 2019 21: 40
        Plyusanul your comment - the correct consideration of the psychology of the enemy in the strategy of intimidation is priceless.

        With one amendment - in the near future, the Russian Aerospace Forces will have a Burevestnik UAV with a YAPVRD, the launcher of which can be made in the form factor of a conventional large-tonnage container, and the time of continuous loitering in the air during a special period will be about a year.
        1. +9
          25 November 2019 23: 27
          Quote: Operator
          UAV "Burevestnik" with YAPVRD, the launcher of which can be made in the form factor of a conventional large-tonnage container, and the time of continuous loitering in the air during a special period will be about a year.


          Say no to drugs.
          1. 0
            26 November 2019 17: 55
            Well, the guarantor also guaranteed. Like there is such a thing, shiver adversaries. No drugs I'm afraid he will not say.
            1. -1
              26 November 2019 21: 20
              Even a guarantor did not promise a year in the air.
        2. +1
          26 November 2019 04: 20
          A year in the air ?! Yes, gnome-pilots food will end in a month! ))) The year you turned down is simply unbelievable, the nafig turbine will fall apart, not to mention the burning out of the core.
          1. +8
            26 November 2019 12: 31
            Where is the turbine located at the ramjet and what is the life of the nuclear reactor at the same nuclear submarine? laughing
            1. 0
              27 November 2019 03: 11
              How is the power from the reactor transferred to the ramjet of a subsonic missile and what size and degree of load of the reactor in a nuclear submarine?
              1. 0
                27 November 2019 03: 28
                A nuclear ramjet engine gives an increased radioactive "exhaust", a ramjet engine on subsonic has the lowest efficiency, here are the arguments against a ramjet engine.
                1. + 10
                  27 November 2019 12: 24
                  Not power is transferred from the nuclear reactor to the YNVRD, but heat is transferred by placing the heat exchanger of the reactor primary circuit in the YNVRD heating chamber. Therefore, there are no movable elements (including a turbine) in the YNVRD from the word in general.

                  The radioactive trace (from aerosols with radiation induced by a neutron flux) is formed in the case of using an air-cooled ramjet nuclear reactor (as in the American Pluto cruise missile). The Burevestnik uses a reactor with a liquid-metal coolant (according to V. Putin's statement about the same type of reactor with the Poseidon) and a heat exchanger in the YaPVRD heating chamber.
                  1. 0
                    27 November 2019 13: 57
                    Where did you get that ramjet engine? "Pluto" had to drive at 2M minimum. A subsonic ramjet is ineffective, unlike a turbojet engine, and at least it has a compressor turbine. And how is the coolant chasing from the core to the heat exchanger? Hardly natural circulation. It means some kind of pump, it is possible that a turbine. The homogeneity (allegedly) with the rector of "Poseidon" directly screams about the spent mechanical power takeoff.
                    1. + 10
                      27 November 2019 14: 15
                      The speed of the Petrel is 2 M (like the Tu-144).

                      The lead coolant is pumped in the first heat sink of a nuclear reactor by an MHD pump powered by a thermoelectric generator mounted in a heat exchanger of the first / second circuit.

                      The differences between YSU "Poseidon" and "Petrel" begin with the second circuit:
                      - in the first case, distilled water is used as a heat carrier, in the second case, outside air is used;
                      - in the first case, there is a TZA with a third circuit with a coolant in the form of sea water, in the second case, a TZA and a third circuit are absent as unnecessary.
                      1. 0
                        27 November 2019 14: 21
                        Holy shit, where did you get this data from? People are racking their brains trying to figure out what and how, and you just don't have any process maps. Everywhere they write about the lack of sound, and you're talking about 2M, where's the link? By the way, I didn't think about MGD.
                      2. + 10
                        27 November 2019 14: 29
                        If the Tu-144 made of luminescence was not quite steaming and flew at 2 M, then why should the Petrel be worse?

                        In addition, V.Putin (in contrast to "all") technically correctly characterized the similarity of the reactors, and not the nuclear power plant of Poseidon and Burevestnik.
                      3. 0
                        27 November 2019 14: 36
                        Where did you get the data about Mach 2 ?? What does the Tu-144 have to do with it? What they showed and wrote about the Petrel is everywhere a typical subsonic !!
                      4. 0
                        27 November 2019 14: 41
                        Tu-144 flew on a nuclear ramjet?
                      5. +9
                        27 November 2019 14: 47
                        What is the problem of supersonic JVPRD? The Americans won’t run their direct-flow tank on Pluto 60 years ago and abandoned it only because of sharp fluctuations in the reactivity of the reactor when the aerosol concentration in the outside air changed.

                        And we, therefore, the Petrel with a heat exchanger in the YAPVRD heating chamber did not "shmogli"?
                      6. 0
                        27 November 2019 14: 56
                        Do you understand that ramjet on subsonic works almost nothing? Photos of the Petrel are clearly shown on its subsonic aerodynamics, and you rub everything about supersonic. In Pluto, the air had to be blown through the active zone, but on the Petrel through the heat exchanger (supposedly), it is not clear to you that the efficiency even at the same speed, which is close, the Petrel would be much worse in this case.
                        Quote: Operator
                        abandoned it only because of sharp fluctuations in the reactivity of the reactor due to changes in aerosol concentrations in flight
                        This is complete nonsense, they refused because they were afraid to even test it in the air. What is the concentration of the aerosol? Is this some kind of spice?
                      7. + 10
                        27 November 2019 15: 09
                        A speed of 2 M is the boundary of the use of aluminum alloys as the structural material of a glider of supersonic aircraft, more than 2 M is already steel and titanium.

                        YSU "Burevestnik" has a thermal power of 30 MW with a heat transfer coefficient between 1000-degree lead and 100-degree air ~ 66%, i.e. ramjet power is 20 MW - quite enough to accelerate a cruise missile to a speed of 2 M.

                        Regarding fluctuations in the reactivity of the direct-flow Pluto reactor (beyond the scope of reactor regulation) due to changes in the concentration of aerosol in the outside air, information is available on specialized (non-journalistic) websites on the Internet.
                      8. 0
                        27 November 2019 15: 19
                        You are either trolling, or in a state of altered consciousness, or a third. The argument is simply meaningless.
                      9. +8
                        27 November 2019 15: 23
                        So far, you have not brought a single technical argument in defense of your point of view, which characterizes you as a humanitarian, far from the essence of the issue under consideration.

                        Therefore, I wish you success in your independent study of the subject of discussion.
                      10. 0
                        27 November 2019 16: 29
                        You dragged Tu-144 as an argument in a ramjet or turbojet engine dispute installed on a petrel. It's enough.
                      11. +9
                        27 November 2019 16: 35
                        Themselves, only yourself.
                      12. 0
                        27 November 2019 17: 07
                        Quote: Operator
                        So far, you have not given a single technical argument in defense of your point of view
                        You brought the parameters sucked from your finger, ignore simple logic, don’t understand the difference between the aerodynamics of subsonic and supersonic, you can’t even give links. But the connoisseur writhe. Very familiar type.
      2. -1
        25 November 2019 21: 56
        Quote: 30hgsa
        But we are dealing with people, people tend to believe in their own propaganda. The presence of only silo-based ICBMs creates a psychological problem - in the Pentagon’s armchair or in the oval office, he can sincerely believe in his missile defense and risk it ...

        Well, as if for missile defense systems, silo complexes have the greatest complexity and threat.. The silo has enough means to overcome missile defense due to the most powerful carrier and this is a fundamental difference from other forces of the strategic nuclear forces. Therefore, if you are not afraid of the silo, then other carriers should be perceived as a much smaller threat.. If missile defense systems on ships can counter the naval component, the Air Force air, then nothing will stop the silo! That is, your conclusion is illogical, if the greatest threat is not scary, then the least will not bother at all and a decision will be made..
        1. +3
          25 November 2019 22: 43
          It doesn't matter which is the most dangerous. I say - psychology. People are afraid of snakes and sharks and are not afraid to cross the road in the wrong place, although snake bites, especially sharks, will kill people thousands of times less than they hit on the roads. You can believe that it will turn out to cover all silos with the first blow, and that it will fly off to destroy missile defense ... But if there are a lot of types of carriers, even if some are easy to neutralize, an impressive list of measures arises in the head more easily than silos, and fear, and suddenly something will not work. It does not work mat. logics.
          1. -1
            25 November 2019 22: 50
            Quote: 30hgsa
            It doesn't matter which is the most dangerous. I say - psychology.

            Psychology does not work in such issues (such a level of decision-making), but a clear analysis of prospects and threats is underway, and decision-making is already based on it ..
            Quote: 30hgsa
            You can believe
            But this does not work at all in principle, we will leave the question of faith to the servants of the cult .. Those who make decisions about the end of the world categorically do not believe in God ..
            1. 0
              25 November 2019 23: 01
              Well then tell me what logical analysis Hitler and his General Staff based their decision on when they decided to start a war against the giant and most powerful country of the USSR - on two fronts, with Britain still unsuppressed - and even declared war on the USA in December 1941, just when the Red Army launched a counteroffensive near Moscow (although Japan did not declare war on the USSR).
              1. -3
                25 November 2019 23: 56
                Quote: 30hgsa
                Well then tell me on what logical analysis Hitler and his

                Better tell me how it ended .. Or do you think the sucker is not a mammoth will not die out?
                And then there was no great peacemaker called nuclear weapons ..
                1. +3
                  25 November 2019 23: 58
                  It ended with the bloodiest and most terrible war in history being unleashed on the basis of the faith of the German General Staff and Hitler in their own strength. Logically, this war should not have happened, at least in this form. But logic did not work, Germany lost the war, tens of millions of people died. Who told you that the US General Staff is better than the German one?
                  1. -2
                    26 November 2019 00: 19
                    No, it ended with the complete defeat of Germany, and the present existence of such a payment for that defeat, the Germans were neutered and sheared until now .. She has no chance to become a great power, unless she goes to the Alliance and does not enter into an alliance with Russia .. Generals in the USA are clearly smarter and I repeat, everything has changed too much in the world so that because of the faith of someone to jeopardize the well-fed existence of the powerful of this world .. The United States can stupidly eliminate nuclear weapons arsenals as unnecessary, no one is going to attack them, and the US Armed Forces will practically cope with traditional methods anyone again except nuclear super powers to which we belong.
                    1. +2
                      26 November 2019 00: 22
                      In the garden elderberry, and in Kiev uncle.
                      You have a fact before your eyes when a whole country with a whole general staff got involved in the war in a pre-losing configuration ... although there were no logical reasons for this :) And you are all about logic ....
                      Well, your faith in the minds of US generals touches, honestly :) This is precisely faith.
                      1. The comment was deleted.
                    2. +1
                      26 November 2019 21: 25
                      Generals in the US are clearly smarter

                      Strange, I have the impression in recent years that it seems that they are not at all friends with brains there. As some general blurts out something, you think what oak fell off.
                  2. +2
                    26 November 2019 12: 15
                    Quote: 30hgsa
                    Who told you that the US General Staff is better than the German?

                    The committee of chiefs of staff on the level of training may not be better than the German general staff of the times of the Wehrmacht, but the Americans are well informed about the consequences of a massive nuclear attack from the USSR-Russia, and therefore the Germans will not repeat the mistakes. And I'm sure of it, for some reason ...
              2. +1
                26 November 2019 10: 39
                Quote: 30hgsa
                Well then tell me what logical analysis Hitler and his general staff were based on when they made the decision to start a war against the gigantic and most powerful country of the USSR

                On the pre-war mobilization plan of the USSR. The mass formation of new compounds was not envisaged - only the deployment and replenishment of existing ones.
                And also on the experience of past Wehrmacht wars, when the enemy country, which had lost the best part of the cadre army, could no longer continue meaningful resistance.
                Well, what about powerful country Reich intelligence had great doubts. Moreover, it cannot be said that they are unreasonable - even if the IVS following the results of the Soviet-Finnish admit that the USSR does not have a modern army.
                1. + 10
                  26 November 2019 12: 37
                  Where can I read about the pre-war mobilization plan of the USSR?
                  1. + 10
                    26 November 2019 13: 57
                    http://militera.lib.ru/research/gorkov2/02.html
                    "... approved on February 12, 1941. The plan provided for the following: the size of the Red Army in wartime - 8 682 827 people, rifle corps administrations - 65, mechanized corps administrations - 30, divisions - 304, including 60 tank and 30 motorized "- and it was necessary to approve +100500 divisions? laughing
                    1. 0
                      26 November 2019 16: 38
                      Quote: Alexey RA
                      And you can’t say that unreasonable

                      otherwise they would not have reached Moscow in 41 ... request
                    2. +1
                      26 November 2019 16: 55
                      That's not what I'm talking about. The mobilization plan did not provide for the formation of new units - it was planned to fight with the existing units, replenishing them as needed.
                      That is, if you encircle a large part of the active army in the Western theater of operations at the border, then further it will be possible to meet only a few formations of internal districts and reserves transferred from Asian territory. And if you break them, then everyone who retreated went to re-form, there are no other units, you can calmly move. And instead of this, first from somewhere crawled out "border" and NKVD-shnye divisions, then - the militia, and then generally went "three hundredth" rifle divisions.
              3. 0
                26 November 2019 16: 36
                Quote: 30hgsa
                Well then tell me what logical analysis Hitler was based on.

                he himself told his ambassador - I had no other way out ... request
          2. -2
            25 November 2019 22: 50
            Quote: 30hgsa
            You can believe that it will turn out to cover all silos with the first blow, and that it will fly down


            Do you really think that a decision on a nuclear strike is made on the basis of faith?
            1. 0
              25 November 2019 22: 55
              Yes. I am sure about that. :)))
              If decisions were made on the basis of logic, Hitler would not attack the USSR.
              Remember Forrestal and his jump from the window of the psychiatric hospital. Remember Reagan and his broadcast.
              And then think about the adequacy of the people who make decisions.
              1. -2
                25 November 2019 23: 01
                Quote: 30hgsa
                If decisions were made on the basis of logic, Hitler would not attack the USSR.


                Have you ever thought that a sober calculation just crept into Hitler's mistake? And that Hitler’s calculation was sober, says that he almost succeeded.

                Quote: 30hgsa
                Remember Forrestal and his jump from the window of the psychiatric hospital.


                You yourself are guided by myths. That explains a lot.
                1. +4
                  25 November 2019 23: 04
                  No I do not think so. If a mistake had crept into his sober calculation, he would not have declared the USA war in December 1941 just after the start of the Red Army counter-offensive near Moscow, in 1942 he would not have gone over to Stalingrad, but using a favorable environment would have made peace on favorable terms, and in 1943 would not lane on Kursk in a doomed attack. There was no sober calculation, there was faith in one's own strength.

                  PS: about myths, what if Forrestal didn't jump out of the window? If you had logic, you would have noticed the lack of references in my post to the cry attributed to Forrestal during the jump: "the Russians are coming". There is no data that he shouted this during his suicide, but the suicide itself is a fact and this is written about in the post. And here it turns out that YOU PERSONALLY cannot analyze a short text, but you think that logic decides everything :) Funny.
                  1. -2
                    25 November 2019 23: 39
                    Quote: 30hgsa
                    about myths, and what did Forrestal not jump out of the window?


                    As for the myths that Forrestal was the Minister of Defense at that time (you didn’t say this explicitly, but you wouldn’t just remember the insane psycho, right?). At the time of his death, Forrestal had already been dismissed. This is not to say that the decision on a nuclear strike would be made by a large group of people, and not by Forrestal personally.

                    Quote: 30hgsa
                    And here it turns out YOU PERSONALLY cannot analyze the short text


                    I don’t make decisions about the beginning of the war, so it’s unrivaled.
                    1. +4
                      25 November 2019 23: 44
                      I said that he jumped out of the window of the asylum. A person in a psychiatric hospital can no longer be the Minister of Defense. Turn on the logic.

                      At the time of his death, Forrestal was retired, only mental illness did not develop in a day or even a month. And Forrestal was placed in a psychiatric hospital five FIVE DAYS after his resignation. He decided to fly two months after that. Are there any doubts that the US Secretary of Defense was a diagnosed psycho? :) Moreover, he was clearly mentally abnormal even when he was in office.
                      1. -3
                        25 November 2019 23: 52
                        Quote: 30hgsa
                        I said that he jumped out of the window of the asylum. A person in a psychiatric hospital cannot be the Minister of Defense.


                        Those. he did not have access to power.

                        Quote: 30hgsa
                        Are there any doubts that the US Secretary of Defense was a diagnosed psycho? :)


                        Yes of course. Your opinion is against the opinions of Roosevelt and Truman - I don’t even know what to choose.

                        Quote: 30hgsa
                        Moreover, he was clearly mentally abnormal even when he was in office.


                        Yes, you are also a doctor.

                        You also ignore "the decision to launch a nuclear strike would be made by a large group of people, not Forrestal personally."
                      2. +4
                        25 November 2019 23: 54
                        If a person takes the post of Minister of Defense, and five days after his resignation he is sent to a mental hospital for treatment, and two months later he jumps out of a window... does this mean that two months before the jump and five days before the hospitalization - when he was still a minister - his cuckoo was in place?

                        Stop explaining, you are trying to make excuses and pull an owl on the globe; it looks ridiculous, more honest and more logical :))) it would be easy to admit that you are wrong.
                      3. -5
                        25 November 2019 23: 58
                        Quote: 30hgsa
                        If a person holds the post of Minister of Defense, and five days after his resignation, he is sent to a psychiatric hospital for treatment, and after another two months he jumps from the window ... this means that two months before the jump and five days before hospitalization - when he is still was a minister - did he have a cuckoo in place?


                        Suicide after two months in a psychiatric hospital in the 40s does not mean anything.

                        Quote: 30hgsa
                        Stop explaining


                        This word is spelled "to scare."

                        Quote: 30hgsa
                        more honest and logical :))) it would be easy to admit that you are wrong.


                        What is wrong in that you are guided by myths? I still think so.
                      4. +5
                        26 November 2019 07: 53
                        What is wrong in that you are guided by myths? I still think so.

                        you do not count, but just grimace. Trying "arguments" sucked from the finger to refute quite logical conclusions. And argue from the principle "just to argue." I am not even surprised that when the "arguments" began to end, the most "weighty" methods of dispute were used - to begin to incriminate the opponent in poor spelling knowledge.
                      5. -3
                        26 November 2019 09: 59
                        Quote: Ka-52
                        Trying "arguments" sucked from the finger to refute quite logical conclusions.


                        The statement "I'm sure of it" is definitely not logic.

                        Quote: Ka-52
                        the most "weighty" methods of dispute were used - to begin to incriminate the opponent in poor knowledge of spelling.


                        When trying to convict an opponent of clowning, at least spell the words correctly smile
                      6. -2
                        26 November 2019 00: 16
                        If a person holds the post of Minister of Defense, and five days after his resignation, he is sent to be treated in a psychiatric hospital

                        you confuse cause and effect. Resignation due to illness. Nervous exhaustion is a common problem of workaholics
                      7. +2
                        26 November 2019 00: 18
                        And what am I confusing? I affirm that the US Department of Defense was led for some time by a mentally unhealthy person. And according to your logic, if the resignation was the result of a mental illness ... then Forrestal, when he was in office, was mentally healthy? :)
                      8. -3
                        26 November 2019 00: 41
                        confuse that
                        The U.S. Department of Defense was led for some time by a mentally ill person.

                        was Forrestal mentally healthy when he was in office?

                        Do you have evidence to the contrary?
                      9. +3
                        26 November 2019 00: 54
                        It is full of indirect. The Secretary of Defense wrote about the appalling mental state of the Secretary of Defense before his resignation.

                        In 1949, angered over Forrestal's continued opposition to his defense economization policies, and concerned about reports in the press over his mental condition, Truman abruptly asked Forrestal to resign.
                        https://www.wikiwand.com/en/James_Forrestal
                      10. -5
                        26 November 2019 01: 24
                        newspapers write a lot of things.
                        these are not doctors.
                        medical opinion is known and it makes no sense to add newspaper inventions to him from the time of the election campaign.
                      11. +3
                        26 November 2019 01: 26
                        Everyone lies. One you know the truth :) All proofs are wrong. You don’t have them at all, but the truth is yours. You left and were going to end the conversation? So come on - be a man - a man said - a man did :)))))
                      12. -4
                        26 November 2019 01: 34
                        and, yes, you are also a provocateur, and not only write rudeness and nonsense in huge quantities.
                        forget the nonsense that you litter the branch here.
                        this is a declassified official report of his death

                        his diagnosis is depression.
                        https://findingaids.princeton.edu/collections/MC051/c04531
                        hi
                      13. +3
                        26 November 2019 01: 54
                        1. I read the entire report. Unlike you. It does not say anything about the period before admission to the hospital - they were not interested. They investigated death and they needed a diagnosis at the time of death, as well as to exclude negligence. So the report is past, it is about nothing.

                        2. About the diagnosis - if you do not know, depression is a mental illness. Smoke ICD.
                      14. -4
                        26 November 2019 02: 32
                        That is, there is no evidence that he even had depression during his service.
                        So this was originally said.
                        If there are official documents confirming that he had a mental illness during the service, bring them.
                        But no, do not litter the forum with meaningless posts.
                      15. -1
                        25 November 2019 23: 58
                        This comrade is trying desperately to pull an owl on the globe .. Owl is very painful ..
                      16. -1
                        26 November 2019 00: 06
                        That's what I'm talking about
                        Quote: max702
                        If a person holds the post of Minister of Defense, and five days after his resignation, he is sent to be treated in a psychiatric hospital
                      17. +2
                        26 November 2019 00: 16
                        That is, if a person was so sick that he was not even treated on an outpatient basis, but was placed in a psychiatric hospital for treatment, then six days before that he was mentally normal? :)
                      18. -4
                        26 November 2019 00: 39
                        Are you a specialist in psychiatry too?
                        A nervous breakdown from overload, but he did.
                        The diagnosis of nervous exhaustion, then depression.
                        The usual set of workaholic. Very common.
                      19. +1
                        26 November 2019 01: 02
                        Presidential Disability: Papers, Discussions, and Recommendations ... Page 54
                        https://books.google.ru/books?id=6m75P0WpGHMC&pg=PA54&lpg=PA54&dq=James+Forrestal+disease&source=bl&ots=uZkG0I01wt&sig=ACfU3U2GJA1gmMeVgVBhMbWKHIr--JrYxA&hl=ru&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj41rmcrobmAhXB4aYKHSCDBp44ChDoATAHegQICRAB#v=onepage&q=James%20Forrestal%20disease&f=false
                      20. -3
                        26 November 2019 01: 04
                        By request https://books.google.ru/books?id=6m75P0WpGHMC&pg=PA54&lpg=PA54&dq ... nothing was found.
                      21. +2
                        26 November 2019 01: 05
                        And you do not drive into the Google search bar, but into the address bar. It's that simple ... can you handle it? :))
                      22. -4
                        26 November 2019 01: 17
                        for information, with those who pokes me, I do not communicate. No interest.
                        As a rule, these people are not very smart.
                        try again.
                        Yes, and it makes no sense to watch, by the way
                      23. +1
                        26 November 2019 01: 19
                        OK. All clear. You then rested your horns for hours in the end merged, but you don’t want to admit wrong :) Well, to hell with you. :))) Be, Pinocchio, there really is nothing to talk about with you.
                      24. -4
                        26 November 2019 01: 36
                        No, I’ll read your nonsense. I have nothing to do
                        there is an official report, I gave you a link, study.
                      25. 0
                        26 November 2019 01: 14
                        Your link just says that Forrestal was depressed:


                        Had he been treated like an ordinary seaman, this talented public servant might well have recovered from his suicidal depression


                        As stated above, "the usual set of a workaholic."
                      26. +1
                        26 November 2019 01: 17
                        ICD 10 - International Classification of Diseases of the 10th Revision
                        Classes MKB-10 / F00-F99 / F30-F39
                        MOOD DISORDERS [AFFECTIVE DISORDERS] (F30-F39)
                        Depressive episode (F32)

                        In mild, moderate, or severe typical cases of depressive episodes, the patient has a lowered mood, decreased energy, and decreased activity. Reduced ability to rejoice, have fun, be interested, concentrate. Expressed fatigue is common, even after minimal effort. Usually disturbed sleep and decreased appetite. Self-esteem and self-confidence are almost always reduced, even with mild forms of the disease. Often there are thoughts of one's own guilt and worthlessness. A low mood, which changes little day by day, does not depend on the circumstances and may be accompanied by so-called somatic symptoms, such as loss of interest in the environment and loss of sensations that give pleasure, wake up in the morning several hours earlier than usual, and increase depression in the morning, severe psychomotor retardation, anxiety, loss of appetite, weight loss and decreased libido. Depending on the number and severity of symptoms, a depressive episode can be classified as mild, moderately severe, and severe.
                      27. -2
                        26 November 2019 01: 42
                        Oh, you’ve already become a psychiatrist.
                        ICD-10 with its terminology and classification was adopted in 1989, and therefore to apply it to the diagnosis of a doctor of the 40s is an absurd undertaking.
                        Did you actually read what you copied and pasted?
                        These are the symptoms of half the population .....
                      28. +2
                        26 November 2019 02: 03
                        Well, let's take ICD-6. ICD-6 314 Neurotic-depressive reaction - diagnosis from the report - mental illness.
                        You’re like a donkey from a cartoon, you don’t understand why.
                      29. -2
                        26 November 2019 02: 26
                        And what from this?
                        They immediately wrote to you that after he left his post, he was diagnosed with depression.
                        And you argue about the same hour.
                      30. 0
                        26 November 2019 01: 42
                        And that proves ... what exactly? What did Forrestal single-handedly plan a nuclear strike, relying on his faith?
                      31. +3
                        26 November 2019 01: 57
                        No, this proves that people make decisions that are not at all perfect and decisions are made not only on the basis of pure logic, but also on the basis of personal pathologies. Which they have - Forrestal is just an example of a person with a diagnosed mental illness at the head of the defense department.

                        The outbreak of war is a political decision, not a military one. When making such decisions, it’s not so much logic that works, but confidence in the possibility of winning a war, including false confidence.
                      32. -2
                        26 November 2019 02: 02
                        Quote: 30hgsa
                        this proves that people make decisions that are far from ideal


                        As if someone were arguing with this.

                        Quote: 30hgsa
                        decisions are made not only on the basis of pure logic, but also on the basis of personal pathologies


                        This is completely different from "I'm sure the decision to launch a nuclear strike is made on the basis of faith."

                        Quote: 30hgsa
                        When making such decisions, it’s not so much logic that works, but confidence


                        This is your personal opinion, based on about nothing.
                      33. +2
                        26 November 2019 08: 02
                        That is, if a person was so sick that he was not even treated on an outpatient basis, but was placed in a psychiatric hospital for treatment, then six days before that he was mentally normal? :)

                        if it were the Soviet or Russian Ministry of Defense, then these defenders like Max702, Anonymous and Aviors wouldn't even croak. And the Americans can't even have mental disorders in principle. They are hegemons after all ))
                      34. -2
                        26 November 2019 10: 03
                        Quote: Ka-52
                        if it was a Soviet or Russian Defense Ministry, then these defenders such as max702s, ananimuses and aviators would not have even croaked.


                        For starters, they would not blame the Soviet and Russian Defense Ministries for planning a war based on faith. And the American Defense Ministry - it’s possible, there is Forrestal suicide. It is strange that they did not remember Reagan's dementia - then it would have worked out quite well.
                      35. -2
                        26 November 2019 12: 09
                        Forrestal was not in a "mental hospital", but in an ordinary military hospital.
                        the fact that someone from post to post ignores this is just an attempt to manipulate stamps.
                        Forrestor was not able to do anything that many leaders do not have in serious and responsible work. Nervous exhaustion - and depression after dismissal. And the situation is quite real for any country in the world.
                        And attempts to pull an owl on a globe with an allegedly insane minister are ordinary manipulation and juggling of terms.
                        if it was a Soviet or Russian Defense Ministry

                        This is what you want. It never occurred to anyone to claim, based on the fact that a Soviet minister committed suicide after being fired, that the Soviet police were led by madmen, as someone is trying to portray about Forrestal.
                        He quarreled with Truman, supporting his rival in the elections, he was dismissed from his post - there are enough reasons for depression.
                        hi
                  2. 0
                    26 November 2019 00: 04
                    Late in 1942, Hitler was to make peace on favorable terms.
                    At that time, the Atlantic Charter and the Declaration of the United Nations had already been adopted, according to which there was no place for either "Hitlerism" or a separate peace with the Axis countries.
                    And even in December 1941, the late-Atlantic Charter was already adopted, and the Declaration was on the way.
                    1. 0
                      26 November 2019 00: 11
                      Hitler had two options in the war: first defeat England (he thought he would come to an agreement with the white people), or attack the USSR together with Japan, and better yet with Turkey, but he did not work hard on the diplomatic front and as a result lost.
                      1. 0
                        26 November 2019 00: 20
                        Japan was useless. There was no oil in the Far East.
                        And Turkey also does not need.
                      2. 0
                        26 November 2019 00: 31
                        If Japan has no interests in this region ... then what were the fights on Lake Hassan and the Khalkhin Gol River? In Mongolia, too, there is no oil :)) But did Turkey really have no views of the Caucasus and Caucasian oil? :))
                      3. 0
                        26 November 2019 00: 51
                        Mongolia is not the USSR.
                      4. 0
                        26 November 2019 00: 57
                        Hassan is the USSR.
                      5. +3
                        26 November 2019 11: 16
                        Quote: 30hgsa
                        If Japan has no interests in this region ... then what were the fights on Lake Hassan and the Khalkhin Gol River?

                        Yes, because Japan of the 30s is not a monolithic state, but a conglomerate of practically openly fighting industrial clans. Do not forget - we are talking about a country in which dissatisfied army officers can go to the houses of the highest officials of the Empire and slaughter them a little, and the fleet can land troops in the capital and threaten the army with the main caliber of the LC, because the admirals were among the targets of the rebels.
                        Hassan and Khalkhin-Gol are an initiative of the Kwantunts group. The metropolis practically did not participate in this adventure - which led the Kwantungs to a draw in the first case and to defeat in the second. If Japan were united, then both conflicts could be much more bloody. But ... The fleet, with its powerful base aircraft from the military operations against the USSR, generally withdrew. The Kwantungs did not receive reinforcements from the Expeditionary Force in China or from the Metropolis during the fighting. Themselves attacked - and fight back.
                        Quote: 30hgsa
                        There is no oil in Mongolia either

                        In Mongolia, the Kwantungs decided to straighten the border a little in order to divert the hypothetical threat from the road they paved. Who would have thought that because of such a trifle, the long-nosed northern barbarians would send an army corps, and then also elite pilots, to this godforsaken corner. smile
                      6. 0
                        26 November 2019 16: 40
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        this is not a monolithic state, but a conglomerate of military-industrial clans practically openly at war with each other.

                        But is it somewhere else? bully
                      7. 0
                        26 November 2019 00: 39
                        Quote: Avior
                        Japan was useless. There was no oil in the Far East.
                        And Turkey also does not need.

                        Tactically and strategically no. History has confirmed their error.
                        Having finished off the USSR quickly, they would have thrown England out of the Middle East and Africa in one fell swoop, and then they would have rolled out the island... And all this by mid-1942. Japan has more than enough oil from the Middle East, the Germans have the resource base of the USSR and their hands are untied to build an ocean fleet, the shipyards of Great Britain work around the clock for the Third Reich, the USA in shock mobilizes the economy, putting the country under arms and trying to do something with the Japanese brazenly pushing towards the States, at the same time looking with horror at the Atlantic, where the German and Italian navies are in full swing, not experiencing any problems with any resources, looking at all this, neutral Sweden joins the Reich, and then Spain and Portugal (everyone wants to be with the winners), Switzerland is simply presented with the fact that this is another German land (no violinist needed). So strategically the picture is very scary... And then Lend-Lease came from somewhere around this time, the US did not want to be left alone with the enraged predator and this was in the Russian Empire when the US position was an order of magnitude better than the alternative...
                      8. 0
                        26 November 2019 00: 57
                        Weak science fiction smile
                        The most likely thing that would have happened was that Japan immediately fell into its beginning in 1945 due to the fact that there was no blow to Pearl Harbor, but on the contrary, the States would deliver a sudden blow and the sea would become inaccessible to the Japanese in 1941, Germany nothing would help.
                        And then what is the use of the Japanese from the Far East of the USSR, other than problems?
                      9. -2
                        26 November 2019 12: 25
                        Quote: Avior
                        And then what is the use of the Japanese from the Far East of the USSR, other than problems?

                        The point is that they helped an ally, torn apart on two fronts the USSR would not have been able to stop the blitzkrieg in the West, as a result of which it would have suffered defeat. We were afraid to transfer troops from the Far East expecting an attack by Japan and took the risk of this when everything in the West became really bad, because there was no choice. As a result, Germany would have freed up dozens of well-trained divisions that would have been sent to Africa and the Middle East, sharply complicating the life of the allies, the Japanese after that could simply retreat to their earlier positions or consolidate their achievements. In the future, the US pressure on Japan would have noticeably weakened since it was necessary to help England on a much larger scale due to the real threat of Germany's invasion of the island. Or do you really think that England could have resisted dozens of divisions seasoned in battles on the Eastern Front? And let's not forget that the USSR's industrial and resource base in Ukraine, Belarus and the central part of Russia works for the Germans, even the evacuation of factories during an attack on the USSR from two sides would hardly have been possible. Even in the Russian Empire, the Germans used the Kharkov factories and coal from the Donbass to the fullest extent. In the AI, everything would have been much larger, a faster blitzkrieg and non-evacuated industry that would have gone to the Germans. It is quite possible that Moscow would have fallen by August, thereby fully confirming the plans of the German General Staff. By the New Year, the Wehrmacht is at the English Channel, and the Air Force has been bombing England for a couple of months, taking into account the lessons of the previous "war for Britain".
                      10. -2
                        26 November 2019 12: 29
                        Or do you really think that England could resist dozens of divisions seasoned in battles on the eastern front?

                        England is an island, that’s the subtlety.
                        Hitler did not succeed in preparing and landing there, and without this the most seasoned divisions would not have helped.
                        The states would intervene in the war with Japan on their own terms, and very soon the Japanese would have had huge problems.
                        they lasted because of the surprise attack
                      11. -1
                        26 November 2019 13: 10
                        Quote: Avior
                        England is an island, that’s the subtlety.
                        Hitler did not succeed in preparing and landing there, and without this the most seasoned divisions would not have helped.

                        It is clear that when several hundred divisions are fighting in the east, there can be no talk of any landing, Hitler attacked the USSR solely because of the erroneous assessment that the USSR was weaker than England and would cope more easily, he almost succeeded. Before the war, the possible threat from the USSR in the event of a full-fledged conflict with England did not allow increasing pressure on England, Hitler chose the USSR and was wrong, history has proven this, how it would have been in another case we do not know but we can assume. Seeing the development of the situation in the Great Patriotic War, there is every reason that in the event of a double blow the USSR would have suffered defeat, which would have entailed completely different alignments in world politics.
                      12. 0
                        26 November 2019 13: 40
                        he first tried to land in England, it didn’t work, it didn’t even reach the divisions
                      13. +1
                        26 November 2019 12: 38
                        Quote: Avior
                        The most likely thing that would have happened was that Japan immediately fell into its beginning in 1945 due to the fact that there was no blow to Pearl Harbor, but on the contrary, the States would deliver a sudden blow and the sea would become inaccessible to the Japanese already in 1941

                        The Americans did not think so, and this is described in detail in one of the monographs on the attack on Pearl Harbor:
                        Having examined some important aspects of Japanese-American relations in the 1930s, the publications of the American press during periods of crisis in the Pacific, military program data and journalism, we come to the following conclusions.
                        1. Japan was regarded by the US military and political leadership as the main adversary in the Pacific since the mid-1920s, or rather, the conclusion of the Washington Agreements. This is confirmed by the beginning of detailed military planning.
                        2. In 1931, together with the recognition of the inevitability of the Pacific War, there is a hope to reorient the direction of Japanese expansion. In favor of this, according to American public and military-political figures, the provisions of the Tanaka memorandum, the attack on Manchuria and China, and the possibility of exerting economic pressure on Japan speak.
                        3. In the USA during the 1920s - 1941 The question of the Japanese threat was constantly raised. The country's leadership, the official press, unofficial journalism, army and navy officers discussed the prospects of a future war, the scenario of its development, the chances of their own victory. American military politicians expected an imminent conflict with the Empire of the Rising Sun.
                        4. After 1936, the United States is actively preparing for war. This is evidenced not only by the development of military plans, but also by budget indicators, materials from programs to increase the fleet, aviation, and the expansion of basing systems. All this (especially the projects for the construction of new ships, the creation of amphibious forces, special attention to submarines) indicates that American leaders were preparing precisely for the war with Japan.

                        S. O. Buranok
                        "Pearl Harbor assessed by US military and political leaders (1941 - 1945)"
                      14. 0
                        26 November 2019 13: 43
                        and what of this quote? what did the US prepare to fight against Japan?
                        I do not argue.
                      15. +1
                        26 November 2019 18: 20
                        Quote: Avior
                        and what of this quote? what did the US prepare to fight against Japan?
                        I do not argue.

                        The fact that the Americans considered Japan a serious opponent and hardly dreamed of an easy victory over the Japanese in 1941.
                      16. 0
                        26 November 2019 21: 18
                        I, too, about this.
                        According to the scenario suggested above, the Americans would have attacked first at the worst moment for the Japanese themselves - Japan's reserves and resources would have gone to war with the USSR.
                        and not vice versa, as it was in reality.
                        This would immediately change the balance of power.
                        Therefore, I believe that the Japanese attack on the USSR at that time was disadvantageous to Japan.
                      17. 0
                        27 November 2019 11: 50
                        Quote: Avior
                        Therefore, I believe that the Japanese attack on the USSR at that time was disadvantageous to Japan.

                        This is certainly true, especially considering that our ground forces have shown what they are capable of. It was not for nothing that Stalin saw off the Japanese minister even at the station - apparently a verbal agreement in the form of non-protocol words, in addition to official documents, took place since the leader of the peoples showed such respect.
                      18. +1
                        26 November 2019 08: 04
                        Altistory again.

                        Quote: max702
                        Finishing a quick USSR

                        How fast? Right in the summer? But finishing off is how? Like in Belgium or like in Yugoslavia?
                        Quote: max702
                        England would have been thrown out in one fell swoop from the Middle East and Africa,

                        And this is how much time?
                        Quote: max702
                        after that they would have rolled out the islet ... And all this by the middle of 1942.

                        In what crazy world did you have a fleet and aircraft comparable to the English + American ones by the middle of the 42nd at the Reich? Or will you go to England on ice?
                        Quote: max702
                        Germans resource base of the USSR

                        What other "resource base"?
                        Quote: max702
                        UK shipyards work around the clock on third

                        Why else? A lot of French shipyards worked out for the third Reich?
                        Quote: max702
                        US shocked to mobilize economy

                        The United States has been shocking to mobilize the economy since the summer of 40.
                        Quote: max702
                        trying to do something with the Japanese brazenly twisting towards the states,

                        0 chances of the Japanese to devour more than they ate in reality before the end of the 42nd year. Puzo is not rubber.
                        Quote: max702
                        with might and main host the Navy of Germany and Italy

                        There are no Navy of Germany and Italy, except for the submarine. Even compared to Japan alone.
                        Quote: max702
                        followed by Spain and Portugal (everyone wants to be with the winners)

                        The commandante was noticeably smarter than Duce.
                        Quote: max702
                        Switzerland is trivially confronted with the fact

                        They tried to put in the summer of the 40th. We decided that it’s more expensive.
                        Quote: max702
                        And then Lendlis or Otkel took about at this time

                        LL took at the beginning of the 41st year
                      19. +2
                        26 November 2019 11: 34
                        Quote: Octopus
                        The United States has been shocking to mobilize the economy since the summer of 40.

                        And if you recall the Merchant Marine Act 1936, the program for the construction of high-speed transports and Emory Land - it would have been like since 1938. wink
                      20. +1
                        26 November 2019 12: 05
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        if you remember

                        These are not purely military measures.
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        FDR with a flick of the arm began the creation of ground forces

                        Everything is not easy there. The FDR began to count the National Guard under the detectives, primarily from this explosive growth. On the other hand, NG of the 41st year is some kind of terdivision / country club, the quality is near-zero, especially sergeants / officers. Worker-Peasant Blue Army, God forgive me.
                      21. +2
                        26 November 2019 12: 35
                        Quote: Octopus
                        These are not purely military measures.

                        These are measures of at least dual use. Deployment of mass construction by state order of high-speed transports (with the possibility of mobilization into the fleet and armaments by mobvariant), leased to private companies, provided that they are exclusively staffed by American citizens. Yes, and the creation of a reserve of civilian sailors.
                      22. 0
                        26 November 2019 16: 42
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        then no matter since 1938

                        but you can start by selling us Christie's plants and tractor ... they know how to count far ... feel
                      23. +1
                        26 November 2019 11: 31
                        Quote: max702
                        Having finished in a quick USSR, England would have been thrown out in one fell swoop from the Middle East and Africa

                        Somewhere in the middle between these two events, the Allies left Japan without oil after the war with the USSR. smile
                        There is practically no oil in the Far East of the USSR (and half of the Soviet Far East oil is already extracted by the Japanese). Japan’s own production does not cover 10% of peacetime needs either. No import - oil embargo. The stocks of the Empire were wasted on a war with the USSR.
                        Quote: max702
                        and then the island would be rolled out ..

                        Yeah ... in 1940, when the forces of the British Metropolis were at a minimum - they did not roll out. And in 1942, when the Island has been pumping equipment from the United States for a year already, they will roll it out. smile
                        Quote: max702
                        US shocked to mobilize economy

                        The mobilization of the economy in the United States actually began in 1939, when the FDR began to create ground forces with a flick of the wrist. Moreover, in the initial he had three settlement divisions (half in overseas territories). And by the end of 1941 in the ground forces there were fifty forming divisions. The fleet did not lag behind - two divisions and ten separate battalions were formed from two brigades of the marine corps. In parallel with the formation of the American army, the FDR reorganized the British, sending there as many weapons and equipment as its own army received. In 1941, even escorted ABs were built at the American shipyards for the British. So the US military industry in 1941 worked for two.
                      24. 0
                        26 November 2019 16: 44
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        The mobilization of the economy in the United States actually began in 1939 -

                        and the B-17 was ordered at 35 ...
                    2. 0
                      26 November 2019 00: 13
                      Well, some documents were signed, and? Separate peace, despite the treaties, is such a rare occurrence in world history :) Especially when the troops are defeated and the front is broken. No, in fact, it is unlikely that the USSR would have made such a peace, but Adik did not even try to extract strategic benefits from the successes of the same 42nd year or even the 41st (when it became clear that the blitzkrieg would not work, and this is somewhere October, or even September 1941)
                      1. +2
                        26 November 2019 00: 31
                        It was precisely because of this that I did not try that no one would go to him, including Stalin.

                        it became clear that the blitzkrieg will not work, and this is somewhere in October, or even September 1941

                        Yes, take it immediately from June 23.
                      2. +2
                        26 November 2019 00: 40
                        Yes, I take the Barbarossa plan and compare it with reality. According to the plan, we were supposed to reach Moscow on August 25 :) It was in September that it became clear that the deadlines were being missed, and seriously so, and the resistance was only growing. As for who would have done what in the conditions of the catastrophe at the beginning of the war - I won't take it upon myself to say.
                      3. -1
                        26 November 2019 00: 58
                        if everyone fled to conclude the world, as soon as a deadline broke, the wars would subside on their own.
                    3. 0
                      26 November 2019 07: 51
                      Quote: Avior
                      even in December 1941, the late Atlantic Charter was already adopted, and the Declaration was on the way.

                      )))
                      You underestimate the flexibility of great democracies. In the post-war world there was a place for both the Spanish fascists, the peace-loving USSR, and even the head of the Japanese Empire, you can understand, forgive. Churchill had an allergy to Hitler personally. And the Charter, that Charter, it did not touch the Czech Republic a little bit, that with Hitler, that without Hitler.
                      1. 0
                        26 November 2019 11: 31
                        But should they have fought with everyone right away?
                        During the war, no one violated this treaty, including because it made no sense, the rest would have continued.
                    4. +3
                      26 November 2019 10: 56
                      Quote: Avior
                      And even in December 1941, the late-Atlantic Charter was already adopted, and the Declaration was on the way.

                      It’s not even a matter of the Charter - in January-March 1941 the notorious ABC-1 was held: a series of meetings of senior staff officers of the United States, Britain and Canada, at which a single joint military strategy of the Allies (including the formally neutral USA) was developed. The traces of this meeting are clearly visible in the American pre-war plans for the development of 1941, in which in the chapters on the general principles of military planning, there is a direct link to the decisions of ABC-1: the main theater of operations - Europe for the army, the Atlantic - for the fleet; the main enemy is Germany; First of all, it is necessary to knock out the weak link of the Axis - Italy.
                      The ink on the ABC-1 documents had not time to dry yet - and a commission of the American army had already appeared on the British Isles, examining the military facilities of the Island Empire in order to select the most suitable American bases for basing. And behind it came American firms, expanding ports, bases and airfields so that they could receive troops and supplies from across the ocean. The United States was preparing to enter the war in Europe - and they needed only an excuse.
                      1. 0
                        26 November 2019 11: 45
                        American British Conversation is a plan of the States and England before Hitler's attack on the USSR, rather a secret technical one.
                        And the Charter and the Declaration are public program Documents.
                        And about the entry of the United States into the war - after they began to help England, it was a matter of time before Hitler declared war on the United States in order to be able to fight this help, and everyone understood this.
                2. +1
                  26 November 2019 21: 33
                  You yourself are guided by myths. That explains a lot.

                  True, this is a myth. And they invented it only in the states themselves. The only truth is that, on the basis of conscientious aggression, he went nuts and ended up in a psychiatric hospital. Twice tried to commit suicide, the second time successfully. From the window or not, but he jumped into hell from the darkness of his diseased brain.
                  And he said the phrase "The Reds are coming." Whether he was delirious or not, it doesn't matter anymore.
            2. 0
              26 November 2019 00: 47
              It is adopted based on the algorithm. Man only gives the go-ahead.
    2. 0
      25 November 2019 22: 12
      Therefore, if in strategic aviation there is still some sense, then in the SSBN it is not corny!
      In the event of a sudden nuclear strike, aircraft won't even have time to take off, so it's hard to count on them. And even if a submarine is detected, it may disappear from the hunter's boat's field of vision for a while. And who in their right mind would risk launching a strike unless there is a 100% guarantee that it won't happen during the strike. And no one can give such a guarantee. Even one undetected or lost submarine at the wrong time is a risk of losing 16 cities, receiving unacceptable damage.
      1. -1
        25 November 2019 22: 42
        In fact, our SSBNs are mostly stationed at bases at sea, they are afraid to release them, apparently on the issue of detection and escort by the enemy, competent people have more information and there is no illusion of success. Maybe they will make it from the pier in time. As for aviation, I agree with you, as an instrument of the strategic nuclear forces, it is very questionable, but as I wrote above, it can be used in other ways, but SSBNs (insanely expensive) cannot be used for other purposes in any other way. Therefore, we minimize risks and costs, while at the same time, we strengthen more reliable and rational solutions with the freed resources.
    3. +1
      26 November 2019 16: 35
      Quote: max702
      It is expensive useless, and therefore not necessary ..

      I would say it is harmful! because it distracts the forces of the fleet and industry!
  15. +3
    25 November 2019 21: 37
    Rumors that the Americans monitor our submarines are greatly exaggerated. Yes, in peacetime, ships cruise near our bases that track every time our submarine goes out to sea.
    But during the period of threat and during military actions, no enemy reconnaissance aircraft will remain near our shores, no one will allow Orions to fly over our territory. Accordingly, finding boats in the seas will become a big problem. We have also learned to overcome the underwater tracking system. Only a group of anti-submarine ships together with aviation can track our boat, spending a certain amount of time on this.
    A duel situation of boat against boat can arise with no more frequency than during World War II.
    Therefore, our guides will fulfill their task; there can be no two opinions here.
    1. +2
      26 November 2019 00: 07
      Quote: glory1974
      The duel situation of a boat against a boat can develop with a frequency of no more than during World War II.
      Well, that?! For example, I received information that collisions between their and our submarines have happened more than once (during mutual surveillance and games of "cat and mouse"), but probably no more than 10% of the cases that actually took place leaked into open sources (and that's why they don't seem numerous)?! And if you add to this the opinion of the same Klimov, who once emphasized that to this day our submarines are not equipped with effective anti-torpedo defense systems, then it becomes alarming for the fate of the submariners. Well, and in the fact that -
      Quote: glory1974
      Therefore, our submariners will fulfill their task; there can be no two opinions here.
      , so no one argues. It's just like in the song, - "we believe in the courage of desperate guys...", I personally would like our submariners to not be let down by their word from the start, - desperate .. I hope you understood me correctly ?!
      Quote: glory1974
      Rumors that the Americans control our submarines are greatly exaggerated.
      , - God willing. God willing!!!
      1. +1
        26 November 2019 08: 24
        for example, I received information that collisions between them and our boats happened more than once (during mutual tracking and games of "cat and mouse"),

        Nobody says that it was just once. Over the entire period, there have probably been several dozen cases of collisions with both submarines and surface ships. But a combat situation is somewhat different. There is no need to monitor, you need to use weapons.
        I hope you understood me correctly ?!

        I understand you, I think you understand me too. When a submarine uses weapons, it becomes visible to everyone. It doesn't matter if it's American or Russian.
        1. +1
          26 November 2019 11: 55
          Quote: glory1974
          But the combat situation is somewhat different. You do not need to track, you need to use weapons.
          here I completely agree with you!, well, that's just my logic, it tells me what exactly for this and very important (even in peacetime) to learn, and "hear" earlier, and "see" further, if possible, remaining as invisible to the opponent / enemy / as possible (if you like, then just until that very moment - use weapons !!). And not to be in the role of a victim, already on the exits from their bases ...
          Quote: glory1974
          When a boat uses a weapon, it becomes visible to everyone. It doesn’t matter American or Russian.
          and then it’s already clear that it will be important for the attacker to try to evade the attack (and not to secrecy anymore), but it’s important for the attacker to finish off and not miss, not to allow evasion (and probably also not to secrecy). Therefore, in my opinion, secrecy (little noise and all that it depends on: crew training, design features of the boat project, features of controlling the boat by the commander, depending on knowledge of the technical capabilities of the project and so on ....) it is really very important, I repeat with what I said above, so that the guys serving on it do not find themselves in a role where everything will depend only on - courage desperate guys ... otherwise Timokhin (with Klimov) constantly keep in good shape, assuming that -
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          Especially considering that in the threatened period around our bases enemy submarines that we have nothing to detect will graze.
          ... what is alarming ?!
    2. 0
      26 November 2019 00: 51
      Accordingly, finding boats in the seas will be a big problem.


      Especially considering that in the threatened period around our bases enemy submarines that we have nothing to detect will graze.

      We also learned to overcome the underwater tracking system.


      Do you remember the name of this system? We didn't learn it in the 80s. Americans plugged all the holes.
      1. 0
        26 November 2019 08: 20
        taking into account the fact that in the threatened period around our bases enemy submarines that we have nothing to detect will graze.

        But this is not the same when a tracking vessel drifts right near the base exit. And to track a boat in the open sea, you need a solid outfit of forces and means of anti-aircraft defense.
        Do you want to remember her name, this system?

        wassat What kind of snobbery? Do you show excellence in your knowledge?
        Not learned, in the 80s, Americans plugged all the holes.

        And I have other information. I do not want to reveal all the secrets, but in the 90s our boat checked the closure of "all holes" and ........ in general, let the Americans sleep peacefully, and so do we.
        1. 0
          26 November 2019 13: 50
          And I have other information. I do not want to reveal all the secrets, but in the 90s our boat checked the closure of "all holes" and ........ in general, let the Americans sleep peacefully, and so do we.


          These are fairy tales. There are passages to the West Atlantic, but the boat is constantly monitored, they have occasional contact loss, then they still find the boat. In the Pacific, it was worse and worse.
  16. +2
    25 November 2019 21: 47
    Thanks to Andrey for the article! I, like the author, have nothing to do with the fleet, which is probably why I liked the article! A lot of analysis, a lot of work, thanks! hi
  17. -1
    25 November 2019 21: 55
    Andrei is not a specialist in naval issues, but writes. It’s strange. Why not write about ChTZ? There is a lot of information, the plant is nearby, housemates are working there, they will prompt.
  18. 0
    25 November 2019 22: 59
    Quote: Operator
    With one amendment - in the near future, the Russian Aerospace Forces will have a Burevestnik UAV with a YAPVRD, the launcher of which can be made in the form factor of a conventional large-tonnage container, and the time of continuous loitering in the air during a special period will be about a year.

    Do you yourself believe in that? In the near future is in 100 years?
    1. +9
      25 November 2019 23: 24
      Think of the Crimean bridge.
  19. +1
    25 November 2019 23: 01
    A very important topic is revealed by the respected Andrey from Chelyabinsk, it is necessary to reduce the visibility of the submarine,
  20. +1
    26 November 2019 00: 57
    Andrei, we need not to talk about secrecy, but about the combat stability of the strategic nuclear forces as a whole, which cannot be reduced to secrecy of submarines in the first place, and secondly, not only by boats (in theory).
    And yes, it is achieved in different ways, this is the third.
    1. +1
      26 November 2019 07: 30
      How? About secrecy is also necessary, because it is important, and the whole range of measures in one article, even kill does not fit. We'll talk about the rest further, I feel that strategists will have to devote at least 2 articles more
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. 0
          26 November 2019 10: 38
          I’m sorry, this is just some kind of conspiracy. I am writing about the BS, and the subconscious mind prints the database crying
          1. The comment was deleted.
      2. +1
        26 November 2019 11: 30
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        We’ll talk about the rest,
        wait, sir, you have Andrei, in general, it doesn’t work out very well (I personally look at your and Timokhin’s articles with particular interest !!). You are both fellows (from the word fellows) !!
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        I feel that strategists will have to devote at least 2 articles more
        I am now more interested in the current, deplorable state of the ICAPL, and the PLO system (as A. Timokhin correctly noted, in a set of measures to fill /updating and speed of modernization, incl./ fleet, in combat units, especially in the Pacific Fleet), but we will tolerate that. I hope you will reach this "hot topic" later ?! And for your work and the topics raised, respect - and to both of you as authors !! And you find interesting topics and reveal them in the most complete way, with a good and interesting analysis, as a reason for discussion.
        1. 0
          26 November 2019 11: 55
          We will definitely get there, and thank you for your kind words!
        2. 0
          26 November 2019 13: 49
          And for your work, and topics raised, respect - both of you as authors !! And find the topics interesting, and reveal them in the most complete way, with a good and interesting analysis, as an occasion for discussion.
          I am joining! I’ll add on my own that their positions do not always converge, which gives rise to discussion, even debate. And this is magnificent, it is in a dispute that truth is born. The truth is probably not for arguing, but for those who follow the dispute from the side. And it's great that they began their series of articles on the construction of the fleet almost in parallel.
      3. -1
        26 November 2019 13: 48
        Yes, we simply do not completely solve the issue of secrecy in our conditions. That is, somewhere you have to come to terms with the fact that the enemy is the first to attack and be prepared for just that.
        Like the VKS - air combat begins with a rocket arriving from nowhere, and a maneuver to evade it with the help of air-blast equipment.
        That is, we start with what the Americans would like to end with.

        So it is - stealth measures should be organized at the operational level rather than at the technical level, and at the tactical level, it is necessary to plan to win the battle, which began with an enemy salvo.

        Something like that.
        1. +2
          26 November 2019 16: 49
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          So it is - stealth measures should be organized at the operational level rather than at the technical level, and at the tactical level, it is necessary to plan to win the battle, which began with an enemy salvo.

          maybe change the strategy? To partners did not feel so comfortable?
          1. 0
            26 November 2019 20: 08
            For example, how?
            1. 0
              26 November 2019 20: 22
              Well, for example, instead of writing about the use of nuclear weapons in the event of a fundamental threat to the existence of the state, write down that the decision to use is transferred to the level of the divisional commander and higher if the application will more efficiently solve the tactical task.
              1. 0
                26 November 2019 20: 32
                This is not good for the country, to say the least.
                1. 0
                  26 November 2019 23: 28
                  But the "partners" will feel uncomfortable (see above)
                  1. 0
                    28 November 2019 12: 19
                    On the contrary. Partners feel uncomfortable when their population does not feel any threat from these wonderful and lovely Russians, and grandmas at the VPK need to be beaten out.
            2. +2
              27 November 2019 14: 38
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              For example, how?

              1) like you yourself wrote - the fleet must attack! request
              2) Change the military strategy of the state - stop fooling around with innocence and announce a preventive or demonstration strike in the presence of a clear threat... Precisely formulate this concept and its characteristics - for example, the entry of enemy submarines into certain areas, the deployment of large partner forces in certain places, etc. For example, the deployment of a tank battalion or air squadron in the Baltics would be a preventive strike... hi You can call it red lines ... request
              Of course there will be attempts at provocations - if you act decisively and toughly - both on Khalkhin Gol or in Korea - they will wake up ... request If not, it’s better to strike the first blow - as there - if there is no way to get out of the fight - hit first ... feel
              1. 0
                28 November 2019 15: 42
                1) like you yourself wrote - the fleet must attack!


                In the course of hostilities. In peacetime, it must maintain a level of combat readiness that would show a potential adversary the futility of its offensive plans.

                In terms of the strategic nuclear forces - ensuring the right level of combat stability (not to be confused with passive defense).
                1. 0
                  28 November 2019 17: 14
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  In peacetime should maintain such a level

                  if you do not develop peacetime plans and prepare crews for tasks, how will they be able to fight?
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  ensuring the necessary level of combat stability (not to be confused with passive defense).

                  tricky terms a lot to confuse request
  21. +1
    26 November 2019 04: 11
    As always with Andrei: sane analysis, knowledge of terminology, honed syllable, and often extraordinary conclusions. I always read his articles carefully.
  22. +1
    26 November 2019 05: 16
    Commanders, with external similarity, always differed from each other. From this and much more formed the opinion of the commander. I am sure that among the stupid commanders in understanding one, and in comparison with the other, there is none at all. There is a mindset that, one way or another, forms a person’s style and behavior. Each
    the commander controlled the boat to the best of his interests and abilities. Interests stemmed from goals set for oneself; abilities determined goals. Going out to sea for one was an outlet from the home "hearth", for another it was the pleasure of creative knowledge, and for the third a burden, etc. Therefore, each commander had his own result from the same type of submarines - one discovered something new for himself and the others, the second man could not do without miracles, the third sailed, as if in a steam tug, using 3-4 teams:
    “Forward, backward, upward, downward, etc., and the fourth one was both strange and studied.
    V. Ya. Dudko. "Heroes of Bangor"


    If you carefully read the retired nuclear submarine commanders, the conclusion suggests itself that much more important factors affecting the stealth of a boat are in importance:
    1. Training of the crew and submarine commander.
    2. The quality of the ongoing implementation of the current and average repair of submarines. The presence of factory defects.
    3. The design of the boat.
  23. -3
    26 November 2019 08: 48
    Quote: Operator
    Think of the Crimean bridge

    And what to remember? Have we ever built bridges? Do not confuse the warm with the soft! Nuclear energy is not a compromise, there is a lot of unknown, and there is no need to watch cartoons ...
    1. +5
      26 November 2019 12: 48
      Quote: Alex1973
      Have we ever built bridges? ... no need to watch cartoons

      "......", - S. Lavrov (C)
    2. +2
      27 November 2019 15: 17
      Quote: Alex1973
      Nuclear power is not a compromise

      be surprised, what kind of sopromat - tanks at nuclear power plants under high pressure and ... bully And also temperature, streams of ionizing radiation ... hi
  24. +2
    26 November 2019 10: 22
    The problem of detecting submarines should be considered from the most modern positions. In the field of noise reduction, as far as one can judge, no breakthroughs are now possible. All the achievements that were clearly available in the USSR in the field of hydrodynamics (and these achievements are unique, let me remind you - only our country is able to separate uranium into isotopes by centrifuges quite efficiently, the rest use gas epitaxy with different successes, so we clearly have some secrets in hydrodynamics, unknown to others) have long been used, there can be no growth here.
    However, there is another side. A live acoustician on duty is a funny archaism. Since the last century, computing technologies have changed radically. Now the task of searching and distinguishing sounds is entirely given over to computer programs. These software and hardware complexes are now extremely effective and are used in many areas, that is, there is a lot of experience in their application.
    Given the enormous advantage that the US has in computer technology, I think it is entirely reasonable to assume that any of our boats, no matter how quiet they are, can be detected by US submarines and buoys of various detection networks at a distance of several hundred kilometers. 500-600 km in the case of a submarine, and many thousands of kilometers in the case of distributed buoy networks.
    It is unlikely that at least something moving and undetectable remained on the planet ...
    1. 0
      26 November 2019 12: 54
      Quote: Mikhail3

      It is unlikely that at least something moving and undetectable remained on the planet ...

      How can Americans discover SSBNs in the Caspian or Lake Onega?
      No, I do not urge to drive submarines there. But the principle itself: no access - no detection. And the only solution in my opinion is the transformation of the Sea of ​​Okhotsk into a region inaccessible to enemy boats.
      Well, we’ll wait and see what Andrei from Chelyabinsk will offer.
      1. +1
        26 November 2019 15: 50
        Will missiles fly from the Caspian to the United States? And if it will be necessary to reduce flight time, can the SSBN come closer to the goal by 1-2 thousand km?

        And the only solution in my opinion is the transformation of the Sea of ​​Okhotsk into a region inaccessible to enemy boats.


        How?
  25. 0
    26 November 2019 12: 28
    In the 90s, our country resembled a once formidable fortress that had turned into ruins; in the last 10-15 years, the situation has begun to improve somewhat, but the question of how much and whether it will ever improve completely is unknown.
  26. +2
    26 November 2019 13: 55
    "It should be noted that the figures indicated in the table can be safely shifted to the right by a year - the fact is that the majority of the PKK SN were transferred to the fleet in the last days of December, that is, they actually entered service next year. And you can also assume that the newest ships did not immediately leave the shipyard on combat duty, but were mastered by the fleet for some time. "


    The ships were handed over to the fleet in the last days of December, so that the plant would receive a prize. In what condition they were transmitted, I think you guess. The same thing with the repair. And the ships were not so much mastered as they were eliminated by numerous imperfections and mistakes of industry. Naturally, this quality of construction and repair did not positively affect stealth either. I don’t think that much has changed for the better today.
  27. -1
    26 November 2019 14: 27
    The article is designed for Western intelligence agencies or by their order.
  28. +4
    26 November 2019 16: 20
    The author persists in his concept of the need for an SSBN - his right, but why write absurdities like:
    "But, nevertheless, our 1st and 2nd generation SSBNs, even in the" bastions ", remained vulnerable to the enemy's multipurpose nuclear submarines, which had a great advantage in low noise."
    what bastions for 658 with R13 with a range of 600 km? or the bulk of the 2nd - 667A with R-27 with a range of 2500-3000?
    "And, in fact, only 10% of their total number - 6 heavy SSBNs of project 941" Akula ""
    alas, but the noise in different parts of the spectrum depends on different factors - the larger the boat, the more water movement it creates, in addition, the light hull inevitably creates low-frequency vibrations - so the characteristics of the Sharks are more for the good mood of the high-ranking officials... request Well, comfort for the crew, and there will be a war or not - who knows ...
    and further funny:
    1) "In other words, even if we assume that up to now the Americans have managed to control 80-90% of all our SSBNs on combat duty, this does not mean at all that we should abandon the SSBNs."
    2) "what kind of ships of this class should be built, where to base them, and how to ensure their deployment and combat patrolling."
    recalls - hedgehogs cried, pricked, but continued to eat cacti ... hi
    Maybe the conclusion is different - if a partner is stronger in something, then it is not worth playing by his rules? And maybe the forces of our fleet should not be spent on protecting our SSBNs, which is objectively beneficial to the partner, but on the contrary, directed to searching for and destroying his SLBM submarines?
    1. 0
      26 November 2019 19: 02
      Quote: ser56
      The author persists in his concept of the need for the SSBN - his right,

      This is not the author who persists, but the harsh reality forces us to reduce the surface fleet and increase the combat strength of the SSBNs on the campaign, and not against the wall.
      1. +2
        27 November 2019 14: 50
        Quote: ccsr
        and the harsh reality forces us to reduce the surface fleet and increase the combat strength of the SSBNs on the march, and not against the wall.

        1) you have a logical contradiction - for the withdrawal and cover of the SSBNs, solid NK forces are needed
        2) SSBNs are obviously more expensive than attack submarines, let alone surface ships, so reducing SSBNs will allow a sharp increase in the number of attack submarines and/or surface ships, while freeing up forces that are aimed at protecting strategic...
        1. 0
          27 November 2019 19: 12
          Quote: ser56
          you have a logical contradiction - for the withdrawal and cover of the SSBNs, solid NK forces are needed

          With what joy do you need solid NK - the naval admiral ranks are not enough, or what?
          Our strategic aircraft carriers without escort of fighters to the launch areas go out, and nothing, they are not soared with fear.
          Quote: ser56
          The SSBNs are obviously more expensive as shock nuclear submarines, especially NKs, so reducing the SSBNs will dramatically increase the number of shock nuclear submarines and / or NKs,

          Why, from a military point of view, this is necessary - open the topic, as they say in certain circles.
          Quote: ser56
          at the same time, the forces that are sent to defend the strategists are freed ...

          And without strategic SSBNs we practically don't need the entire navy - does this really require proof? Or you didn't understand why the INF Treaty was placed on small-tonnage ships, which are clearly not for ocean theaters of military operations.
          1. +2
            28 November 2019 14: 36
            Quote: ccsr
            With what joy you need solid NK -

            to demonstrate the flag, protect shipping, etc. - there are many tasks ... see Syria and what RKR Moscow did there ... request
            Quote: ccsr
            For what, from a military point of view, this is necessary - open the topic,

            strike submarines are needed for (in addition to protecting their strategists):
            1) attacks of enemy statues,
            2) actions on enemy communications
            3) destruction of NK thereof
            4) Impact on important objects on land.
            The tasks are important!
            Quote: ccsr
            Does this really require proof?

            You are mistaken - the fleet was needed before the appearance of the SSBN and would be needed even after ... request
            As for the strategists, their necessity was caused by the short range of our missiles; after the appearance of the R-29, there is no point in them compared to conventional strategic missiles... well, what a monkey business request
            Quote: ccsr
            Or didn’t you understand why they began to deploy the INF missiles on small-tonnage ships, which are clearly not for oceanic military theater.

            and that was a mistake - the Americans saw it and withdrew from the contract, and we have a bunch of highly specialized ships ... request
            1. 0
              28 November 2019 19: 08
              Quote: ser56
              to demonstrate the flag, protect shipping, etc. - there are many tasks ... see

              This is all frivolous. Why should we protect the income of foreign shipowners from the budget of our defense ministry if you are talking about Somali or South Chinese pirates?
              Quote: ser56
              strike submarines are needed for (in addition to protecting their strategists):
              1) attacks of enemy statues,

              Attacks of Western strategists can be carried out from areas where we cannot provide a permanent presence, and temporary stay there will cost us large sums. So measure the power of the USSR and Russia before brandishing a saber.
              Quote: ser56
              The tasks are important!

              Who would doubt that the military budget is not rubber.
              Quote: ser56
              As for the strategists, their need was caused by the short range of our missiles, after the appearance of the R-29 there is no sense in them relative to conventional strategic missiles ... well, and monkey

              Here you are mistaken, because now the situation is completely different - the submarine fleet provides our strategic nuclear forces with many missile flight directions, and most importantly, a reduction in the time from launch to destruction, which our strategic missile forces cannot provide at the current stage.
              Quote: ser56
              and that was a mistake - the Americans saw it and left the contract,

              Their way out is not at all connected with this - they realized that the Agreement does not give them anything, and therefore immediately threw it into the basket to untie the hands of their military-industrial complex.
              1. +1
                29 November 2019 12: 26
                Quote: ccsr
                This is all frivolous. Why do we need to protect the income of foreign shipowners

                I don't see any point in trying to convince you, you live within the framework of the struggle against capital :) I'll note that even the USSR defended shipping...
                Quote: ccsr
                only here the military budget is not rubber.

                then may not build an SSBN, the need for which is not obvious?
                Quote: ccsr
                Here you are wrong

                by no means
                Quote: ccsr
                reduction of time from start to failure

                this is while in the "bastions"? it's not even funny... request
                Quote: ccsr
                Their way out is completely unrelated.

                are you sure? bully
                1. +1
                  29 November 2019 16: 48
                  Quote: ser56
                  I note that even the USSR defended shipping ...

                  Soviet shipping in the first place, not Western shipowners.
                  Quote: ser56
                  then may not build an SSBN, the need for which is not obvious?

                  No, it is precisely them that need to be built, because only they from the nuclear triad can come closer to the territory of the USA. And under favorable conditions, it’s generally secretive to be where no one is waiting for them.
                  Quote: ser56
                  is it when you are in the "bastions"?

                  I don’t know what you mean by this, which means I can’t say anything.
                  Quote: ser56
                  are you sure?

                  Yes - 90 percent. By the way, the American military themselves in the early nineties warned our senior military officers that they should in no way believe the promises of their politicians, because they themselves understood what our concessions would lead to, and how it would turn out to them. And so it happened - for twenty years now, Americans have only been fighting all over the world, and believe them, this is far from a joy.
                  1. 0
                    30 November 2019 15: 53
                    Quote: ccsr
                    Soviet shipping in the first place, not Western shipowners.

                    are mistaken - see an example of the Iran-Iraq war
                    Quote: ccsr
                    because only they from the nuclear triad can come closer to the territory of the USA

                    1) If it’s not a secret, then why do they need intercontinental range missiles? hi
                    2) do you want to strike the first blow? Otherwise, it does not make sense ... request
                    Quote: ccsr
                    I don’t know what you mean by this

                    see the article and my answers above ... in short - "bastions" at our borders ...
                    Quote: ccsr
                    and believe them this is far from a joy.

                    to whom? war is always a joy to generals, like the military-industrial complex! hi What to faith
                    Quote: ccsr
                    did not believe the promises of their politicians

                    then this is essentially treason - should they be trusted? hi
                    1. +1
                      30 November 2019 19: 15
                      Quote: ser56
                      if not a secret - then why do they need intercontinental-range missiles?

                      There is no secret - they are slowly advanced, and therefore, taking into account the movement, they must be able to hit the US territory while still on our shores.
                      Well, only subsequently they can generally be on duty much south of the US borders, and this will create a problem for their missile defense systems.
                      Quote: ser56
                      do you want to strike first

                      But we have no choice left to avoid the enormous losses of our population.
                      Quote: ser56
                      in short - "bastions" at our borders ...

                      What threat do they pose to the continental United States?
                      Quote: ser56
                      war is always a joy to generals, like the military-industrial complex!

                      You are mistaken - the "generals" want to fight the least of all, because they know that they will have to pay with their lives in the first place.
                      Quote: ser56
                      then this is essentially treason - should they be trusted?

                      Stop throwing yourself to extremes - they just foresaw future scenarios and were afraid of the stupidity of their politicians. Not unreasonably afraid, by the way ...
                      1. 0
                        2 December 2019 13: 44
                        Quote: ccsr
                        There is no secret - they are slowly moving forward

                        Quote: ccsr
                        What threat do they pose to the continental United States?

                        Have you read the article in question? About the bastions? bully
                        Quote: ccsr
                        And we have no choice

                        hmm... do you have children or grandchildren?
                        Quote: ccsr
                        know that they will have to pay their lives in the first place.

                        Not even funny ... hi
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Yes, throw yourself to extremes

                        imagine a mirror - our generals are turning ... wassat
    2. +3
      26 November 2019 21: 22
      And maybe the forces of our fleet should not be spent on protecting their own SSBNs, which is objectively beneficial for the partner, but on the contrary sent to search for and destroy its nuclear submarines?


      Do you imagine the complexity of this task here? Since the appearance of the Trident SLBM, there has been ONE documented case when a Soviet submarine managed to briefly target an American missile carrier while remaining undetected.

      But there were attempts - to get exhausted. And no stupider than you people undertook them.

      The task of finding and destroying US SSBNs probably cannot be considered unsolvable, but it’s like five of us flying to the moon — theoretically possible, and technically not and it is not clear when it will be possible.
      1. +1
        27 November 2019 15: 00
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Do you imagine the complexity of this task here?

        everyones! however, if you don’t, then it won’t work out ... request
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        And no stupider than you people undertook them.

        1) I never understood the desire to evaluate the opponent’s mind on the Web, and not his arguments ... bully
        2) If this is not done, then the enemy has obvious advantages - he reduces his strength to defend his strategists and increases his outfit for attacking ours ... it’s corny! request
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        but technically not and it is not clear when it will be possible.

        I have good reason to believe that you are mistaken... any complex task consists of many interconnected small ones... For example, patrol areas can be roughly exposed by intelligence bully or satellite, more precisely, areas can be opened by aviation, etc. You can also take the tactics of the enemy - to get on the tail when leaving the bases ... In short - if you do nothing, then it won’t work out ... request
        And yet, if 6-7 keels of 885 will do this, then the task is not realistic - there will be 2-3 in the watch at best, but without strategists the number of submarines on the hunt can be increased not by 2-3, but 4-5 times for the same money, because the SSBN defense forces will be released, especially if you stop building universal monsters of the 885 type and return to the nuclear submarines at 6-8 ct ... feel
      2. 0
        28 November 2019 14: 08
        ONE documented case when the Soviet submarine managed to briefly take on the sight of an American missile carrier
        Yes, Ohio discovered. Institute confirmed.
        I think that the Americans themselves were not fully aware of the possibilities of Ohio.
        Well these are my assumptions. Well, it was lucky that the boat was preparing for the BS. Dudko claimed that he had broken the exit, but the guys from the reconnaissance administration of the fleet corrected him.
        Well, coincidence, I'm about 5 miles, not 12 miles, which Reagan installed. From there, and coastal shots, I think from 12 miles Dudko would have been discovered earlier.
        1. 0
          28 November 2019 14: 58
          By the way, are the photos classified? Has anyone seen them?
          1. 0
            11 December 2019 10: 41
            So in the book is his photo, Heroes of Bangor. I ripped off from there. The report was, but I did not get to his report in 1987. I watched the Mustachioed Tit. I wrote. Special admission was issued at the request of the NS of the Schumanin flotilla. I wound up at the institute several times, this is far from Peter, about two hours drive. Well, then to see in the Navy or in Moscow, they caught on and revoked the admission (((
            1. 0
              11 December 2019 10: 49
              There are no Seattle photos through the periscope in the book. I asked about them.
              1. 0
                11 December 2019 13: 12
                There are two options. Either he doesn't have them (for now), or this is all to raise the importance of the expedition. This is a normal practice not only for submariners. Well, the political department was bustling about, they also wanted to wedge in and get it.
                Well, I myself was at a loss - how could he see Seattle, even if I looked at the map. drinks
                1. 0
                  11 December 2019 13: 29
                  It might not have been Seattle, there’s a big agglomeration
                  1. 0
                    11 December 2019 14: 23
                    Alexander, the expression "It could have been and ..." makes the discussion meaningless. At the entrance to the bay, yes, there is a photo, using the 5 mile so waters. And he exaggerated the rest, which is probably why the carriages with bars were waiting for him.
                    Or over time, all this has grown into fables.
                    Well, people occupied the admiral's niche, he needs to rebel? From his comm Klimova
                    "Until now, the shooting necessary for this has not really been carried out, although Americans do it all the time. But such proposals have been prepared and can be implemented if necessary. Russia needs a fleet that would set independent strategic tasks and solve them at sea. Today our fleet is rising. Sharp and fast". "(The military expert told what to train Russian submariners in the Arctic)
                    I did not hear such absurdities even from the most stupid political worker.
                    1. 0
                      11 December 2019 20: 01
                      Alexander, the expression "It could have been and ..." makes the discussion meaningless. At the entrance to the bay, yes, there is a photo, using the 5 mile so waters.


                      Yes, I just want to look at the pictures of America in the periscope)))

                      I have not heard such absurdities even from the most stupid political worker ..


                      I got a feeling that this is age.
                      1. 0
                        14 December 2019 11: 28
                        And that too. He long ago realized that nothing depends on him, broadcasts what does not irritate the authorities and enjoys the privileges that the admiral's pension gives. Would be smarter, would fall into the group of advisers to the president. laughing
    3. 0
      27 November 2019 19: 31
      what are the bastions for 658 with P13 with a range of 600km? or the bulk of the 2nd - 667A with R-27 with a range of 2500-3000?

      Well, with these, yes, of course. But in the 2nd generation, 18 units were also built. 667B, 4 - 667BD, 14 - 667BDR. All of them had intercontinental BRs. With all their shortcomings (due primarily to the backwardness of industry), a missile salvo could be fired (and even from an unexpected point) and it makes sense to defend them in the so-called. "Bastions" was all the same.
      1. 0
        28 November 2019 14: 39
        Quote: mik193
        All of them were intercontinental BR.

        1) do I dispute this - I showed a problem with the author hi
        2) then what is the difference between the SSBN and conventional strategic missile forces? request
        1. +2
          28 November 2019 19: 11
          Quote: ser56
          then what is the difference between the SSBN and conventional strategic missile forces?

          In the flight time and the inability to accurately determine from which point the launch will be made.
          1. +1
            29 November 2019 12: 27
            Quote: ccsr
            In the flight time and the inability to accurately determine from which point the launch will be made.

            1) The flight time from the "bastions" and the positions of the Strategic Missile Forces are comparable request
            2) What does the starting point matter? JBCH flies according to a given program ... feel
            1. 0
              29 November 2019 16: 52
              Quote: ser56
              The flight time from the "bastions" and the positions of the Strategic Missile Forces are comparable

              I have not heard that our "Bastions" were in Cuba - maybe you have such information, educate.
              Quote: ser56
              What does the starting point matter?

              Great for enemy missile defense systems, especially with a massive launch.
              1. -1
                30 November 2019 15: 55
                Quote: ccsr
                I have not heard that our "Bastions" were in Cuba -

                did you read the article under discussion? bully
                Quote: ccsr
                Great for enemy missile defense systems, especially with a massive launch.

                Do you mean that when rockets are launched off the coast of SSA, they can be destroyed on an active site by laser planes? wink
                1. +1
                  30 November 2019 19: 18
                  Quote: ser56
                  did you read the article under discussion?

                  I did not understand why you dragged them to the SSBN.
                  Quote: ser56
                  Do you mean that when rockets are launched off the coast of SSA, they can be destroyed on an active site by laser planes?

                  First, you first need to determine where the launch will be, because it will not necessarily be areas of territorial waters of the United States.
                  Secondly, organizing a huge number of aircraft on duty in peacetime is very costly even for Americans.
                  1. 0
                    2 December 2019 13: 45
                    Quote: ccsr
                    Secondly, organizing a huge number of aircraft on duty in peacetime is very costly even for Americans.

                    range action 500km ... request
                2. +1
                  30 November 2019 19: 18
                  Quote: ser56
                  did you read the article under discussion?

                  I did not understand why you dragged them to the SSBN.
                  Quote: ser56
                  Do you mean that when rockets are launched off the coast of SSA, they can be destroyed on an active site by laser planes?

                  First, you first need to determine where the launch will be, because it will not necessarily be areas of territorial waters of the United States.
                  Secondly, organizing a huge number of aircraft on duty with lasers in peacetime is very expensive even for the Americans. So do not take seriously what has not been worked out yet.
  29. 0
    26 November 2019 17: 24
    Quote: max702
    Another attempt to put a good face on a bad game. Yes, to put it mildly, everything is bad with us and the underwater component of the nuclear triad is not capable of completing the task, but it’s okay, we need to continue.
    The trouble is that it the dearest and as if not the most ineffective part of our strategic nuclear forces.. The question is why? So as not to lose competence? And will it be possible at all to catch up with a potential enemy in this direction? It is impossible to decide on the AUG, neither theoretically nor practically, now it is up to the SSBNs.. The main question is, will other parts of the strategic nuclear forces be able to compensate for the loss of this component of the triad? Let's start with the Aerospace Forces, now there is a massive modernization of strategic aviation and due to the fact that this tool is maximally universal, there is sense in this.. Even if (I hope) it is never used for its intended purpose, it is quite possible to use it with conventional weapons, progress in missile technology easily allows this without the slightest risk to the carriers, therefore it is a good and correct thing. Let's move on to the Strategic Missile Forces, everything is simple here, this is the support and the only reliable guarantee of the inevitability of our nuclear strike, nothing will stop it, not a preventive strike, not weather conditions, not the mythical missile defense in Eastern Europe or the USA. Accordingly, with the new weapons that are methodically supplied to the troops, this type of weapons will continue to occupy a leading role in our strategic nuclear forces. Therefore, if there is still some sense in strategic aviation, then in the SSBN it simply does not exist! Technological, strategic and tactical lag puts an end to this segment of the strategic nuclear forces. It is expensive, useless, and therefore not necessary. It is better to spend funds on the same Aerospace Forces (they will always find work), as well as missile technologies and the Strategic Missile Forces. Two components of the strategic nuclear forces are quite sufficient, there is no need to waste small resources, we are not the USSR, the possibilities are much more modest (although having gotten rid of 14 weights, it will still be necessary to calculate how it really is). SSBNs were relevant during the times of weakness of the Strategic Missile Forces (and this problem was solved in the 80s), but these times have passed, and colossal investments in the fleet remained, therefore they tried to use it somehow, today almost nothing remains from the legacy of the USSR, so the question is, is it necessary to start this mess again and is it possible to get by with other equally (in fact, much more) reliable tools.. In addition, it will be cheaper and more practical for the Armed Forces as a whole..

    Immediately there was an article where counter-force and counter-value nuclear strikes (strategies?) Were clearly prescribed and what was the role of the SSBNs in them. And then your fantasies to reality?
  30. 0
    26 November 2019 20: 44
    "The USSR was gradually overcoming the lag in low noise from American atomarines ..."

    Suppose Soviet agents stole thoroughly all-all low-noise technology to the very last screw. Suppose also that Soviet industry reproduced all this in the same way.

    The main sources of submarine noise. and. screw b. reactor cooling system pumps c. GTZA.

    Take at random (very approximately): the screw gives 50% noise, the pump and GTZA another 25%.

    Let's assume that Pike-B and Los Angeles are traveling at the same speed. Then the power of the jet from the propeller will be proportional to the pressure of the submarine body cylinder on the water. We consider this value to be proportional to the square of the submarine body diameter. In the first case, this value is 13 m, in the second - 10. Thus, the noise of the "Shchuka-B" propellers will be 1,69 times stronger.

    Let us assume that the noise of the cooling pumps is proportional to the reactor power. Shchuka-B has 190 MW, aircraft - 165 MW. 1,15 times the difference. The noise from the GTZA is assumed to be proportional to the turbine power. In our case, this is 50 hp. and 000 hp. The difference is 35360 times.

    If we take the noise from the aircraft as a unit, then the noise from the Pike-B will get:

    1,15x0,25 + 1,4x0,25 + 1,69x0,5 = 1,48

    Those. the noise from Shchuka-B is very approximately equal to the noise from one and a half aircraft, provided the technologies are the same.
    1. +1
      26 November 2019 21: 14
      according to pr941 according to your method
      diameter 25 m, reactor power 2 * 190 MW, turbines 2 * 50000. and two screws.
      2,3*0,25+2,86*0,25+1,58*0,5= 2,08
      Only this technique is in doubt.
      she suggests that the boats are in full swing.
      correctly calculate the ratio at lower speeds
    2. +1
      26 November 2019 23: 35
      Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
      We consider this value proportional to the square of the diameter of the submarine case.
      Wrongly think: The wolf is wider than the Elk (12 m versus 10), but the noise from its slow speed is less than that of the Elk at the pier (according to the "partners")
    3. +1
      27 November 2019 19: 18
      I’ll fix it a bit. At low speeds, the main source of submarine noise is the ATG - an autonomous turbogenerator. Moreover, both in the sound and in the ultrasonic ranges. Screw components appear at much greater strokes and they also depend on the depth of the stroke. Primary circulation pulsers (TsNPK) on a number of modern submarines (including the USA) do not work at low speeds (search) and reduced reactor power, i.e. the mode of natural circulation of the coolant is in effect. Values ​​of moves depend on the project and according to various open data can reach from 10 to 16 nodes (if not more).
      1. 0
        28 November 2019 14: 13
        Yes you are right.
        the mode of natural circulation of the coolant is in effect.
        But for a limited time, the first Elk has up to 40 minutes. Plus or minus 10 min. So it was in the summary. From this they danced by the time of the work of the aircraft RSL and the radius of barriers.
        1. 0
          29 November 2019 11: 08
          If I am not mistaken, the ECT mode can currently be supported almost unlimitedly, but at low speeds and power of the power plant.
          1. 0
            3 December 2019 11: 48
            My info is from the mid 80s. Then it became irrelevant, well, accounting for the time of this "freeze". As a tactical method of evasion, he did not justify himself.
            Although K-252 in 1974 (Lutsk) crawled in precisely this way through SOSUS south of Aleut. They cited as an example in the classroom.
  31. +9
    26 November 2019 23: 50
    Quote: ccsr
    the task is even earlier to open preparations for a nuclear war in order to try to forestall their strike by launching our strategic nuclear forces

    The current Military Doctrine of the Russian Federation provides only a retaliatory strike with nuclear weapons, while Russia reserves the right to launch a nuclear strike in response to the use of conventional weapons.

    Therefore, it is possible to preempt in principle, but only after the start of foreign aggression.
    1. 0
      27 November 2019 12: 20
      Quote: Operator
      The current Military Doctrine of the Russian Federation provides only a retaliatory strike with nuclear weapons,

      Come on, tell tales - this doctrine is written for the media and for the masses, and military professionals are well aware that we are unlikely to wait for the moment when American missile torches will be spotted by satellites or over-the-horizon radar stations.
      Quote: Operator
      while Russia reserves the right to launch a nuclear strike in response to the use of conventional weapons.

      Burlakov even had this right when he was commander-in-chief in Soviet times in the Western Peace Reserve, and without coordination with Moscow in a critical situation:
      So, were you preparing for war in the early 1980s? - Not just preparing, but ready! Marshal Ogarkov created four strategic directions to lead the offensive war. The western one was in Polish Legnica, and then in Smolensk, the southwestern one was in Chisinau, the southern one was in Baku, the Far Eastern one was in Ulan-Ude, and the Chinese one. Hungary (the Southern group) was part of the same direction as the Kyiv and Odessa districts. We were supposed to destroy the south of Europe, including Italy. The General Staff has these plans. These samples may be needed someday, everything is thought out there, although it needs to be clarified.
      Was the use of nuclear weapons planned? - Of course.
      “Would we be the first to hit?” - Of course.

      - Foreign Minister Gromyko repeated that the USSR would not be the first to use nuclear weapons. - He said one thing, but the military had different thoughts. We have to answer for the war.
      - Isn't the political leadership responsible for this? - The political leadership - Gorbachev and others - betrayed the Union. They were bought in America.

      Interview with Matvey Burlakov ("Kommersant-Vlast", No. 12, 2005)
      1. +9
        27 November 2019 13: 05
        Trust the retirees less with their "of course" - as the Soviet political leadership would have ordered, so the military would have done with nuclear weapons in TMV laughing

        In addition, the tasks of the USSR and the Russian Federation in TMV at the European theater of operations are fundamentally different: the first state from the Elbe’s border planned to occupy the remaining part of the European subcontinent, the second state from the Dnieper’s border plans to destroy the entire military and civilian infrastructure along with the mobility of the remaining part of the European subcontinent without its occupation (for radioactivity).

        Therefore, in the second case, not operational-tactical nuclear weapons with kiloton-class charges (army level) will be involved, but medium-range nuclear weapons with megaton-class charges of the RS-26 type (analogous to the Soviet Pioneer-3, which was at the disposal of the Supreme Command ).
        1. 0
          27 November 2019 13: 34
          Quote: Operator
          Trust retirees less with their "of course"

          The thing is that I was there at that time, and was on combat duty at one of the headquarters of the group’s headquarters, and I can confirm that the time to make a decision was so minimal that it would hardly have become the commander-in-chief - here in I'm sure of that. So Burlakov did not come up with anything.
          Quote: Operator
          Therefore, in the second case, not operational-tactical nuclear weapons with kiloton-class charges (army level) will be involved, but medium-range nuclear weapons with megaton-class charges of the RS-26 type (analogous to the Soviet Pioneer-3, which was at the disposal of the Supreme Command ).

          I don't need to be told about this ABC - I went through it in my time, and I know the supposed scenarios for unleashing a nuclear war. I'm just telling you that, being cut off from the borders of the USSR and being minutes away from American bases, the commander-in-chief had no choice but to strike NATO if the intelligence service had discovered a massive takeoff of nuclear weapons carriers and the withdrawal of Pershings from their boxes. That's why Burlakov told how he would have acted, and believe me, that's exactly how it would have been.
  32. -3
    27 November 2019 02: 27
    even assuming that until now the Americans have managed to control 80-90% of all our SSBNs on combat duty (the author came across such estimates, which, however, are extremely doubtful), this does not mean at all that we should abandon the SSBN. It only means that we need to understand which ships of this class need to be built, where to base them, and how to ensure their deployment and combat patrol.


    I'm afraid the problem is much broader and more severe.

    You can decide, but then what?

    The problem is that neither in the days of the USSR, nor now are Russians
    cannot / do not know how to build SUCH submarines (like surface ships,
    but now not about them), as in the USA (or the same France, Japan, etc.).

    And it would probably be strange to expect something different in a country where they couldn’t produce a normal camera, television or tape recorder (and to this day they themselves can’t fully produce the same smartphone, digital camera or refrigerator).
    Exactly to everyone.
    And different "prefabricated hodgepodge" and screwdriver assemblies do not count here.
    So it is - in relation to refrigerators or something like that.

    What can we say about military equipment, which embodies the highest engineering
    and the production thought of all mankind.
    This area is the highest concentration of technology and achievements, but not only thoughts
    engineers as well as production facilities.
    Well, it is impossible to do complicated things on the knee.
    And so as not to be on the knee - you need to have such power here. And so that they are regularly updated
    in terms of technological excellence, in accordance with the development of technology in the world.

    Therefore, the hope is that in the Russian Federation, where, as mentioned above, they CANNOT make a normal TV, camera or drill (on their own, and not on the principle of a screwdriver assembly, or, even worse, a "hodgepodge"), they produce the best military equipment in the world it's simple
    the result of an exaggeration in reading pseudo-patriotic resources and newspapers. And "pseudo" - because first you need to become the coolest (at least in any industry - it doesn't matter), and only then shout about it at every corner.

    One way or another, but in the matter of "catching up and surpassing the United States in terms of the steepness of military equipment" such a pseudo-patriotic auto-training will hardly help.


    Something like that.
    1. +1
      27 November 2019 12: 35
      Quote: Pereturbatsiya1
      The problem is that neither in the days of the USSR, nor now are Russians
      cannot / do not know how to build SUCH submarines (like surface ships,
      but now not about them), as in the USA (or the same France, Japan, etc.).

      Complete nonsense, because the issue is not even the nuclear weapons carriers themselves, no matter whether they are sea, air or land-based, but whether we will be able to preempt an enemy attack with a lightning strike by our strategic nuclear forces. This will save many lives of our people, otherwise we will have losses comparable to the Americans. All your other reasoning about our problems is simply amateurish nonsense, something like that.
      Quote: Pereturbatsiya1
      where they couldn’t let out a normal camera, TV or tape recorder

      The United States has not released a single VCR, and American-branded televisions do not exist. The camera, even on the Moon, was not American - according to their own statements, and Canon and Nikon did not leave any chance for American manufacturers of photographic equipment at all. Where is Polaroid now?
      Quote: Pereturbatsiya1
      And different "prefabricated hodgepodge" and screwdriver assemblies do not count here.

      Even the famous Volvo trucks assembled in Sweden, only 20% consist of Swedish parts - this is the world distribution of labor, you just have not heard about this.
      Quote: Pereturbatsiya1
      One way or another, but in the matter of "catching up and surpassing the United States in terms of the steepness of military equipment" such a pseudo-patriotic auto-training will hardly help.

      Training is not necessary - we have always surpassed them in the ratio of operational capabilities/cost of military equipment, and they were not competitors to us, well, perhaps only in some narrow areas, which we generally did little work on.
      1. 0
        27 November 2019 15: 06
        Quote: ccsr
        even on the moon was not American -

        do you think they were on the moon? bully
        1. 0
          27 November 2019 19: 16
          Quote: ser56
          do you think they were on the moon?

          No, I don't believe that they landed on the Moon - it was a bluff, although I do admit that astronauts flew around the Moon.
    2. 0
      27 November 2019 15: 05
      Quote: Pereturbatsiya1
      that in the Russian Federation, where, as mentioned above, they CANNOT make a normal TV, camera or drill

      and in the USA they cannot make a spaceship and a rocket for it - so what? bully
      got these agents of the State Department ... soldier
      1. -1
        27 November 2019 19: 02
        So compare the caliber of inability ....
    3. 0
      28 November 2019 15: 52
      Therefore, the hope is that in the Russian Federation, where, as mentioned above, they CANNOT make a normal TV, camera or drill (on their own, and not on the principle of a screwdriver assembly, or, even worse, a "hodgepodge"), they produce the best military equipment in the world is simply the result of an inflection in reading pseudo-patriotic resources and newspapers.


      Therefore, the hope is that in Japan, where, as mentioned above, they CANNOT make a normal gearbox for a helicopter, a turbojet engine or a nuclear reactor (independently, and not according to the principle "figure something out on the basis of an American prototype 20 years ago"), produce the best civilian technology in the world - it's just the result of an inflection in reading foreign advertising catalogs.

      Yes?

      In fact, in the real world, countries have the opportunities to which they have invested strength and resources. The USSR, for example, invested in manned space exploration but did not invest in large diameter pipes, so it could build a space orbital station, and could not make a spiral tube with a diameter of 2 meters and a length of 17 meters.

      All states of the world are in a similar position, to a greater or lesser degree. The United States, for example, also does not have its own smartphones and cannot start their production, but they can land a rover on Mars.

      So with your tales, go to Detskiy Sad. There is the place for both you and them - without regard to the real merits or demerits of Russian weapons.
  33. +8
    27 November 2019 14: 17
    Quote: ccsr
    I was there at that time, and was on combat duty at one of the headquarters of the group’s headquarters, and I can confirm that the time to make a decision was so minimal that it would hardly have become the commander-in-chief

    This is your personal opinion (not knowledge), since this kind of information was not communicated to you.

    Plus, you do not take into account the existence of a special period when the right to make a decision on the use of nuclear weapons is delegated to the level of military units upon the fact of mass take-off of aircraft and launch of missiles within the theater of operations - the so-called retaliatory strike.

    Naturally, there is also a strike at the appointed time, but it can be made only after an official statement on changing the military doctrine of the state, which neither the USSR nor the Russian Federation did - unlike the United States, whose military doctrine contains the concept of counter-force strike.
    1. +2
      27 November 2019 15: 07
      Quote: Operator
      you ignore the existence of a special period,

      I remind you that the IVS also waited and did not expect ... request
      1. +7
        27 November 2019 15: 18
        For the IVS in 1941, the expectation was critical due to the lower level of the military potential of the USSR compared with the potential of Europe (united under the auspices of the Third Reich), for the Russian Federation, whose military potential exceeds the combined potential of all other countries of the world - no.
        1. +1
          27 November 2019 15: 26
          Quote: Operator
          due to the lower level of the military potential of the USSR compared with the potential of Europe, united under the auspices of the Third Reich

          1) the more it was necessary to deploy troops, and not wait ... request
          2) I note that financially our troops were well armed, the problem was the organization and training of personnel from the regiment and above ... hi
          1. +9
            27 November 2019 15: 38
            The lower level of military potential naturally causes a desire to pull it up (to the level of May 1942, for example), as well as to wait for the Third Reich to enter the war situation on two fronts - fortunately, the Soviet intelligence informed the ITT about the conclusion in March 1941 of a secret US-British an agreement under the title of ABC on the mobilization of American industry and the deployment of the American armed forces in the British Isles, as well as on the decision of the Japanese government, will focus on the seizure of oil fields in European colonies in the territory of Southeast Asia (and not taiga in the Soviet Far East).
            1. +1
              27 November 2019 16: 56
              Quote: Operator
              The lower level of military potential naturally causes a desire to pull it up (to the level of May 1942, for example)

              Do not repeat the tales of Agitprop - the Wehrmacht gained power faster than the Red Army ... request If in the fall of 39g the Red Army had every chance to conduct a brief victorious war, as in May 40, then in May 42 the defeat could be even worse ... request For a year, the problems of the Red Army with the command cannot be solved, and an increase in the number of tanks and other things would further aggravate the problem of communications, transport, etc.
              1. 0
                27 November 2019 19: 57
                Quote: ser56
                If in the fall of 39g the Red Army had every chance to conduct a brief victorious war,

                You grabbed it over the edge - we had no chance in 1939, and the Finnish War clearly proved it.
                1. 0
                  28 November 2019 14: 25
                  Quote: ccsr
                  You grabbed it over the edge - we had no chance in 1939,

                  compare the number and quality of tanks, aircraft, the number of divisions and brigades in the Red Army and the Wehrmacht...
                  Quote: ccsr
                  The Finnish war has clearly demonstrated this.

                  do you think some other army was able to fight in the winter and break the line of Manerheim? hi
                  Wrong conclusions were drawn by the Germans on the basis of this war and they paid ... and the problems of the Winter War in poor preparation for it, when they were prepared at least a little, they broke through February-March ...
                  1. +1
                    28 November 2019 18: 43
                    Quote: ser56
                    compare the number and quality of tanks, aircraft, the number of divisions and brigades in the Red Army and the Wehrmacht ...

                    Better compare the Finnish results and read the report on its results - it is on the network.
                    Quote: ser56
                    do you think some other army was able to fight in the winter and break the line of Manerheim?

                    You read the report of the chief of the General Staff of the General Staff of Proskurov on the results of this war, then much will understand why we had such results.
                    Quote: ser56
                    and the problems of the Winter War are in poor preparation for it,

                    More precisely, in the weakness of the entire Red Army, and this is obvious. That is why if Stalin had decided to start a war against Germany in 1939, it is hard to even imagine how it would have ended for us.
                    1. 0
                      29 November 2019 12: 12
                      Quote: ccsr
                      Better Compare Results

                      Quote: ccsr
                      You read the report

                      country of advice ... bully I will say this - not only the Red Army had shortcomings, but also the Wehrmacht! I recommend comparing the results of the march of German tank crews to Vienna in 1938 and Prague in 1939 along European roads and the march of our brigades to the battlefield in Mongolia in 1939. You will discover amazing things... bully
                      Quote: ccsr
                      More precisely, the weaknesses of the entire Red Army, and this is obvious.

                      1) Again Agitprop ... yours is obvious only to you ...
                      2) The Red Army broke through the line of fortifications, and from the question - who else could do this in the winter, you evaded! I note that the Wehrmacht could not break through the defense of Moscow in winter, although there were no pillboxes of millionaires request
                      Quote: ccsr
                      it’s even hard to imagine how it would end for us.

                      Why not? The Wehrmacht has only 100 divisions, and some of them are covering the front with France! The main tanks are the T-1 and T-2, which are essentially tankettes and are nothing against the T-26 and BT... The main fighter is the Emil, which has no super advantage over the I-16. In addition, our tank brigades have not been destroyed by reforms, and the cavalry corps have not been reduced... Finland and Romania will not side with Hitler, the Germans have no sources of oil, no factories for the production of artificial fuel...
                      So we’ll fight in Poland, and in 2-3 weeks the generals will conspire and make peace ... hi
                      1. +1
                        29 November 2019 16: 34
                        Quote: ser56
                        I recommend comparing the results of the march of German tankers to Vienna in 1938 and Prague 1939 on European roads and the march of our brigades to the battlefield in Mongolia in 1939.

                        The number of troops in both companies forgot to compare, for the sake of clarity.
                        Quote: ser56
                        The Red Army broke through the line of fortifications, and from the question

                        At what cost, and most importantly, against whom? You want to compare the Finnish army with the Wehrmacht? It will not work, even in quantitative terms.

                        Quote: ser56
                        The main tanks are the T-1 and T-2, which are essentially tankettes and against the T-26 and BT, they are nothing ...

                        This is just an amateurish approach, when according to the characteristics of one or two samples they conclude that the state of the armored formations of all armed forces. We’ll have to disappoint you, because the infrastructure of the tank units of the Wehrmacht was more advanced than that in the Red Army. The year 1941 proved this clearly when our tanks did not have the means of communication, tankers were sorely lacking as well as the fuel itself, and the remorgan could not even fix sometimes simple malfunctions, because of which equipment was thrown even on the battlefield. I’m not even talking about the resource of our and German technology - we lost to them in this even after 1941. And after that, you propose to evaluate the Wehrmacht’s tank formations through the lip, which, for example, could directly receive intelligence from the reconnaissance aircraft.
                        Quote: ser56
                        So we’ll fight in Poland, and in 2-3 weeks

                        I read reports about the problems our troops had when entering Poland, and I will note that they were much more serious than the Wehrmacht. So there is no point in being overly enthusiastic about the combat capabilities of the Red Army in 1939 - even taking into account the air raids on Helsinki and the participation of the NKVMF in that war, we did not achieve any brilliant results then, and to be objective, if the West had not abandoned the Finns, it is still unknown how long the war would have dragged on. It is strange that you do not want to see this.
                      2. 0
                        30 November 2019 15: 47
                        Quote: ccsr
                        The number of troops in both companies forgot to compare, d

                        1) in order to find out the taste of the soup it is not necessary to eat completely ... hi
                        2) Not elite brigades fought in Mongolia, I am the most ordinary ...
                        Quote: ccsr
                        It’s just an amateurish approach,

                        words ... I'll see how you will fight on the T-1 against the T-26 ... bully
                        Quote: ccsr
                        1941 proved this clearly when our tanks did not have the means of communication, tankers were sorely lacking like the fuel itself, and the remorgan could not even fix sometimes simple malfunctions

                        1) it is a pity that you repeat Agitprop, and do not read my arguments ... request
                        2) I already said above - the GKZh defeated our tank forces by forming the 29MK request, in 1939 our tank brigades were quite combat-ready - see the example of Mongolia. I understand that this is difficult to comprehend... hi
                        Quote: ccsr
                        for example, they could directly receive intelligence from the reconnaissance aircraft.

                        in the Red Army, this was not even in 1945, which did not stop taking Berlin ... hi
                        Quote: ccsr
                        do not be very enthusiastic about the combat capabilities of the Red

                        I repeat the question for the 3rd time - what army could have broken through the Mannerheim line in winter in 1940? No answer? bully
                        Quote: ccsr
                        It is strange that you do not want to see this.

                        come to yourself with a similar measure ... hi
                      3. 0
                        30 November 2019 16: 03
                        GKZH defeated our tank forces with the formation of 29MK

                        1. There are only 37 pieces in the Japanese PD 18-mm anti-tank gun, while the losses in equipment at Bain-Tsagan were impressive.
                        2. The tank brigade at the front level will not pull, that is, it will be worse than with the MK in the summer of 1941.
                      4. 0
                        30 November 2019 16: 32
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        at the same time, the losses in technology at Bain-Tsagan were impressive.

                        This is the corporate style of using tanks from the GKZH - forehead, without artillery, infantry and reconnaissance ... request Under Brody was also ...
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        The tank brigade at the front level will not pull, i.e. it will be worse than with the MK in the summer of 1941.

                        1) It was planned to use horse-fur. groups based on the corps - see WWII - there it worked.
                        2) Worse than MK model 1941 it is difficult to come up with something request And the TBRs were quite alert - see the offensive of 20 TTBRs in Finland request
                      5. 0
                        30 November 2019 17: 26
                        This is a corporate identity.

                        This is a lag in military science, because in a similar way most commanders of the MK and armies commanded in the summer of 1941.
                        Planned to use

                        The cavalry corps of the 1941 and 1944 model are two big differences (despite the fact that cavalrymen have never been the main striking force), in addition, the KK will not pull the supply of the TBbr.
                      6. 0
                        30 November 2019 17: 34
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        This is a lag in military science,

                        Yes, what kind of science in primary general and military education? request
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        in addition, QC will not pull the supply of TBR.

                        I remind you that in the CC there were 2 CDs, and each in TP ... hi
                      7. 0
                        30 November 2019 17: 58
                        Yes, what kind of science in primary general and military education?

                        Zhukov is not the only representative of the highest command staff.
                        I remind

                        Yeah, in the 2-division corps of 128 BT-5s for 1116 vehicles, 278 combat and 49 training BTs or 276 (36 training) T-26s will suddenly be added to this number.
                      8. 0
                        30 November 2019 18: 13
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        to this number will be added

                        1) There are no rear services in the TBR at all?
                        2) There are army supply bases.
                      9. 0
                        30 November 2019 18: 55
                        1) There are, under the capabilities of the brigade.
                        2) There is, but for example in the Polish campaign for the cavalry AG Tyulenev did not organize supplies, as a result, tanks 25 TC had to carry fuel by plane.
                      10. 0
                        2 December 2019 13: 27
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        I had to carry fuel by air.

                        both the Germans and ours did this in Manchuria in 1945 - what is the problem?
                      11. 0
                        2 December 2019 13: 33
                        both the Germans and ours did this in Manchuria in 1945 - what is the problem?

                        EMNIP in Manchuria, the total depth of the offensive operation was 800 km, and on the first day 6 TA advanced 150 km, in 5 days 450 km. There is a difference.
                      12. +1
                        30 November 2019 19: 03
                        Quote: ser56
                        to know the taste of the soup it’s not necessary to eat completely ...

                        You can't eat your fill with one spoon, so don't judge the state of the Wehrmacht's armored forces by one, the weakest model of a German tank. Our T-18 was still in service until 1939 - wouldn't you like to compare the German T-1 with it?
                        Quote: ser56
                        Not elite brigades fought in Mongolia, I am the most ordinary ...

                        And what is this talking about? We needed to create a new army for the Finnish, so what is your hint to understand?
                        Quote: ser56
                        I will see how you will fight on the T-1 against the T-26 ...

                        But in 1941 we didn’t have tank battles at all, so we don’t need to speculate, because the Wehrmacht tanks were means of supporting infantry, and not means of fighting tanks.
                        Quote: ser56
                        I already said above - the GKZh defeated our tank forces by forming the 29MK

                        This is complete nonsense, because Zhukov had nothing to do with the planning of creating thirty mechanized corps - the GABTU was engaged in developing the theory and justification for such a number, and it was not subordinate to the General Staff.
                        Quote: ser56
                        in the Red Army, this was not even in 1945, which did not stop taking Berlin ...

                        You kind of spoke about 1939, but now you want to retouch everything with the end result of the war. This is a distortion of history.
                        Quote: ser56
                        I repeat the question 3 times - which army could break through the Manerheim line in the winter of 1940? There will be no answer?

                        You yourself answered, bringing the capture of Berlin - the Red Army of the 1945 model would have been able to deal with this line in a couple of weeks, or maybe faster.
                      13. 0
                        2 December 2019 13: 39
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Our T-18s were still in service until 1939 - do you want to compare the German T-1 with them?

                        I'll put it this way - I'm too lazy to prove the obvious to you: the basis of the Red Army tank forces in 1939 were T-26 and BT-5/7 (more than 10 in total)! With a noticeable number of T-000 (28 units). The basis of the Wehrmacht tank forces at that time were T-500, T-1 and Praga, while T-2 and T-3 were in small quantities (4 units).
                        And if you like to look for problems only in the Red Army and prove what you learned in school - that's your problem... request
                        Quote: ccsr
                        And what is this talking about? We needed to create a new army for the Finnish, so what is your hint to understand?

                        1) This indicates the good training of conventional Red Army battleships in the Red Army in 1939 and the quality of equipment.
                        2) The Finnish war took place in very specific conditions, which the leadership of the country and the Red Army did not take into account (although the BMS paid attention). Why problems were solved and the line was broken.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        And we didn’t have tank battles in 1941,

                        read about the battle of Brody ... is on Wiki, I'm too lazy to educate you ... request
                        Quote: ccsr
                        because the tanks of the Wehrmacht were means of supporting infantry, and

                        What nonsense ... request Poor Guderian ... bully
                        Quote: ccsr
                        because Zhukov had nothing to do with planning the creation of thirty mechanized corps -

                        read his memoir - he still repents that he did not take into account the possibilities of industry.... laughing
                        Quote: ccsr
                        This is a distortion of history.

                        1) Only with you - I’m uncleaning - the absence of what you indicated didn’t place you to win in 1945, nor did you prevent 1940 willows ... request
                        2) juggling is your path ...
                        Quote: ccsr
                        The Red Army of 1945 would have been able to deal with this line in a couple of weeks, or maybe faster.

                        1) It is a pity that you do not know that in 1944 the Red Army broke through this line in 10 days - I recommend learning the history of the Red Army ....
                        2) The discussion with you is not interesting - you do not know the banal ... request
                      14. +1
                        2 December 2019 14: 07
                        Quote: ser56
                        I will say this - I’m too lazy to prove the obvious to you: in 1939 the main tank forces of the Red Army were T-26 and BT-5/7 (more than 10 in total)! With a noticeable amount of T-000 (28pcs). The basis of the tank forces of the Wehrmacht at that time was T-500, T-1 and Prague, while T-2 and T-3 were in small numbers (4 pcs.).

                        You were too lazy to study the armored vehicles of the Wehrmacht, and like Meltyukhov, you cleverly slip in the weakest model of a German tank for comparison, forgetting that the same half-track Sd Kfz 251, produced since 1939, was not inferior in capabilities to the same T-26, if it used mortar weapons in combat. But the point is not even this, but that it was practically impossible to control a large part of our armored vehicles in combat due to the lack of radio stations, but the Germans succeeded in this, and hence their effectiveness when using even old models of weapons.
                        Quote: ser56
                        This indicates the good training of conventional Red Army battleships in the Red Army in 1939 and the quality of equipment.

                        Well, since everything was so perfect with training, why did the Finnish go so long and why such great losses?
                        Quote: ser56
                        read about the battle of Brody.

                        Read better about the structure of the anti-tank units of the Wehrmacht's land units in terms of their purpose, in order to understand what they were originally ordered to do without tanks.
                        Quote: ser56
                        read his memoir - he still repents,

                        You don't have to believe everything that is written in your memoirs, even our victorious commanders. And the defeated will make so many "discoveries" to you that sometimes you doubt who the winner was.
                        Quote: ser56
                        It is a pity that you do not know that in 1944 the Red Army broke through this line in 10 days - I recommend learning the history of the Red Army ....

                        Firstly, I just hypothetically named the number of days, so do not puff out your literacy.
                        Secondly, you are again trying to pull the events of 1939 onto the spacecraft of the 1944 model, and these are two big differences, especially after several years of battles with the Wehrmacht.
                        But this is not even the point, but the fact that the Red Army of peacetime was unable to effectively and quickly defeat Finland, and this best proves that with such problems it simply could not defeat the Wehrmacht in 1939, how would you This is not a dream.
                        Quote: ser56
                        The discussion with you is not interesting - you do not know the banal ...

                        Your inability to objectively analyze the events of past years generally puts an end to you as a professional in military matters - discuss with your own kind ...
            2. 0
              27 November 2019 16: 58
              Quote: Operator
              in a situation of war on two fronts

              Comrade Stalin successfully overslept this in 1939-40; repetition would have been impossible request
              1. + 10
                27 November 2019 17: 26
                As the Red Army’s liberation campaign of 1939 and the Soviet-Finnish War of 1939–40 showed, the Red Army as a military force essentially lagged behind in organization terms even from the Reichswehr (with its ready-made cadre of officers and non-commissioned officers), not to mention the Wehrmacht of the 1939 model.

                As planned by the IVS, the organizational backlog of the workers 'and peasants' army had to be compensated by the technical level of armament (artillery, including jet, T-34 and KV-1, new fighters and attack aircraft). Plus, at least 100% staffing by May 1942 created from scratch military units, not to mention their military coordination.

                And you still do not take into account the risk for the USSR of entering the war with the Third Reich before September 1, 1939 - without first engaging the Reich in the war with Britain and France so that they "suddenly" do not find themselves on the side of our opponents. Moreover, nothing prevented Britain and France from going over to the side of Germany at any moment, both in 1940 and in 1941 (in part of Britain). So, the time delay of the IVS (for stirring up the British-German contradictions and actually drawing the United States into the war on the side of Britain) was absolutely logical.

                Another thing is that the IVS, together with the high command of the Red Army, did not go childishly in the first half of 1941, placing the army not ready for war at the very German-Soviet border. But this was, by and large, a tactical miscalculation, which was compensated by the correct strategic calculation for the formation of a solid anti-German coalition of former unapproachable opponents - the communist USSR and the Atnicommunist British Empire and the United States, whose military potential was several times higher than the combined potential of Germany, Italy and Japan, together with their satellites.
                1. +1
                  27 November 2019 18: 02
                  Quote: Operator
                  As a military force, the Red Army significantly lagged behind even the Reichswehr (with its ready-made cadre of officers and non-commissioned officers), not to mention the Wehrmacht of the 1939 model.

                  A controversial point of view - in 39 the Wehrmacht was far from ideal, but the Red Army was noticeably (many times) stronger both numerically and technically! At the same time, Germany does not have the oil of Romania and its and Finland's divisions, as well as the experience and trophies of France - the same oil! By the way, the experience of the Red Army and the Wehrmacht in combat was a draw... request
                  Quote: Operator
                  Plus, at least 100% staffing by May 1942 created from scratch military units, not to mention their military coordination.

                  tanks would be riveted so what? Where would they get cars, technicals, radio, etc.? The very idea of ​​forming 30MK was stupid ...
                  Quote: Operator
                  And you still do not take into account for the USSR the risk of entering the war with the Third Reich before September 1, 1939

                  and who is talking about this? laughing I’m talking about October - when we signed a friendship agreement ... and in May 40 there were no problems at all with this ...
                  Quote: Operator
                  But it was by and large a tactical miscalculation,

                  tactics at a strategic level? bully
                  Quote: Operator
                  the correct strategic calculation for the formation of a solid anti-German coalition of former unreasonable opponents - the communist USSR and the atnicommunist British Empire and the United States, whose military potential exceeded the combined potential of Germany, Italy and Japan, together with their satellites.

                  you again set out Agitprop ... request Churchill himself said like - I’ll go to an alliance with the devil if he fights with Hitler ... so there was no course - there was an objective reality of a common enemy ... request
                  1. + 10
                    27 November 2019 19: 08
                    To promise is not to marry.

                    I talked about the staffing shortfalls and organizational incapacity of the Red Army in 1939-41, and not about the number of weapons it had. A vivid example is the Arabs: how many Soviet weapons were not pumped into them in 1960-70, but with no organization they over and over again lost quantitatively to a smaller enemy.

                    It was necessary to implement the Soviet mobplan of 1939-41 according to anyone, even with 30 mechanized corps (armed with BT), at least without - at least to compensate for the same mobplan of potential opponents. Another thing is that the leadership needed to be aware that the units in the process of formation had not yet become military, and therefore pull them into the depth of defense, which in the western direction was about 1000 km.

                    The same thing had to be done with the covering army and withdrawing it from the border to a depth of 100-200 km in order to gain time for its deployment at the time of the invasion of the enemy troops. But the military leadership was connected with the target installation of the ITT to quickly transfer hostilities to the territory of the enemy, on which the Red Army burned out in 1941.

                    I called this a tactical mistake in understanding that everything else (engaging Germany in a war on two fronts and forming an anti-German coalition) was done strategically correctly - the war ended in Berlin, and not in Moscow.
                    1. 0
                      28 November 2019 14: 29
                      Quote: Operator
                      I talked about the regular understaffing and organizational disruption of the Red Army in 1939-41,

                      which was the result of crazy growth, the same Zhukov destroyed the tank troops by starting the formation of 29MK request
                      Quote: Operator
                      But the military leadership was connected with the target installation of the ITT to quickly transfer hostilities to the territory of the enemy, on which the Red Army burned out in 1941.
                      I agree that there were different options, the proposed one was caused by the complete military incompetence of the IVS, Tymoshenko and Zhukov ... request
                      Quote: Operator
                      in the understanding that everything else

                      This "tactical" mistake cost our people a sea of ​​blood and suffering...
    2. +1
      27 November 2019 19: 54
      Quote: Operator
      This is your personal opinion (not knowledge), since this kind of information was not communicated to you.

      You want to say that Burlakov just cheaply stuffed his own price? I do not believe in this.
      As for my knowledge, you do not even suspect how much I was involved in such information, and if you consider yourself an "operator" for VUS, then remember from whom you received the material for your planning.
      Quote: Operator
      Plus, you ignore the existence of a special period,

      This is what you suppose from theory, but in practice we were obliged to lay on its complete absence. This is where the speed of decision making comes from.
      Quote: Operator
      Naturally, there is also a blow at the appointed time,

      In theory, yes, but in practice, in order to keep everything secret, we would be notified after a preemptive launch of our strategic nuclear forces, and this is a harsh reality that is understood by those who know how to think strategically.
      Quote: Operator
      which neither the USSR nor the Russian Federation did

      Are you sure you know everything about operational planning at the GOU level? Even though you have a nickname "operator", something tells me that your level is not General Staff.
  34. +9
    27 November 2019 14: 38
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    showed and wrote about the Petrel

    Who wrote - customers and developers?
  35. 0
    27 November 2019 15: 00
    Quote: ABM
    And the failure of 941 projects smacks of sabotage

    Do you know what the navy calls this boat? "Water carrier".
    Do you know what the designers from the Malakhit Design Bureau called it? "The victory of technology over common sense." They didn't need to be built at all, let alone 7 of them. One would have been enough for testing. And close the project.
  36. 0
    27 November 2019 18: 50
    Quote: ccsr
    Will we be able to forestall the enemy attack in a lightning strike with our strategic nuclear forces


    How can you prevent it if you have a shortage of everything - submarines, PLCs, and the missiles themselves?
    And if the submarines are so noisy that they can be detected without difficulty?
    And if the strategy of the Russian Federation says that they will only respond to the attack, i.e. upon the fact of its commission?
    1. 0
      27 November 2019 20: 06
      Quote: Pereturbatsiya1
      How can you preempt, if everything is in short supply - submarines, and PLCs, and the missiles themselves?

      We actually have a triad, and I still hope that the navy "didn't drink it all away, so as not to disgrace itself," as they say in one naval saying. And the naval program itself is much more protracted in terms of time, so there's no need to rush and judge only by the current state.
      Quote: Pereturbatsiya1
      And if the strategy of the Russian Federation says that they will only respond to the attack, i.e. upon the fact of its commission?

      For people like you, they write this specifically so that you sleep peacefully.
      Quote: Pereturbatsiya1
      And if the submarines are so noisy that they can be detected without difficulty?

      Are you even aware that all the positions of the American strategic nuclear forces are known with an accuracy of tens of meters? And what does this solve if they try to secretly prepare and launch a preemptive strike? The same thing with submarine noises - even if the location of a submarine is known, it is not a fact that it will be destroyed before it releases its ammunition.
  37. -1
    27 November 2019 18: 55
    Quote: ser56
    The US has not released a single VCR, and American-branded televisions do not exist


    This is where your amateurish pseudo-patriotic auto-training manifests itself.

    Please read:

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnavox

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnavox

    Here is at least such a moment:

    "The term" Commercial Wireless "had a different meaning in the early days of radio and telephone. Magnavox manufactured radios, TVs, and phonographs. In the 1960s Magnavox manufactured the first plasma displays for the military and for computer applications".

    I hope you can master? ..
    1. +2
      27 November 2019 20: 12
      Quote: Pereturbatsiya1
      This is where your amateurish pseudo-patriotic auto-training manifests itself.

      Please read:

      https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnavox

      The Magnavox company, due to its backwardness, was absorbed by the Dutch company Phillips, and this best says, without any pseudo-patriotic auto-training, what incompetents Americans are in matters of electronics.
      Enlighten:
      After the end of World War II, Philips remained in the United States 8 companies that have become formally independent; By the 1980s, they had merged under the auspices of NAP, becoming the third largest producer of televisions in the USA, and NAP also occupied a significant place in the market of lighting equipment and electronics (including defense). NAP included a number of American companies absorbed during the period of independent development, such as Magnavox and Signetics[en] [8].
  38. 0
    27 November 2019 21: 27
    Quote: ccsr
    even if the location of the submarine is known, not a fact


    You see how much you have in the conditional mood. So, in fact, all this is "written with a pitchfork on the water."
    But in the real incline, the number of ships / submarines and missiles for them in the United States significantly exceeds the potential of the Russian Federation.
    And there is only a "nuclear umbrella" (moreover, inherited from the USSR), covering the country.
    But the real potential of this "umbrella" is beginning to thin out (the gradual decommissioning of old missiles in the mines), but everything will not work out with the new ones - they are passing throw tests, and that's it. Further - nothing. PRGKs are nevertheless an addition to silos, and cannot by themselves STRONGLY scare the "foe".

    We have to resort to "fighting cartoons" as a new stage of "vigorous-baton-scarecrow".
  39. +1
    27 November 2019 21: 31
    Quote: ccsr
    what are Americans stupid about electronics


    Thank you, made fun.

    Lack of skill, or not, but it was from them, before the situation escalated in the late 2000s, that the Russian Federation bought "military" electronics. Now compensates for the French.
    Unlike the USSR, where everything was different in such matters.
    The same applies to other areas - in matters of genetic engineering and biotechnology, they have no equal.
    Do not think that I advocate for them - just stating a fact.
    The Russian oligarchs could really boost the Russian economy starting in the 2000s, if they invested in this very economy, and not in offshore and construction of superyachts.

    But, as they say, to each his own.
    1. +1
      28 November 2019 11: 41
      Quote: Pereturbatsiya1
      Lack of skill, or not, but it was from them, before the situation escalated in the late 2000s, that the Russian Federation bought "military" electronics.

      I don't know about the end of the 2000s, but since Soviet times there has been a ban on the use of foreign components in combat systems, so there is no need to tell tales about the purchase of "military" electronics - we ourselves riveted it even in difficult times.
      Quote: Pereturbatsiya1
      The same applies to other areas - in matters of genetic engineering and biotechnology, they have no equal.

      You will talk about other areas in other forums - military issues are discussed here.
      Quote: Pereturbatsiya1
      Russian oligarchs could really boost the Russian economy starting in the 2000s,

      The oligarchs will never raise anything if it will not bring them a large income - study the classics of Marxism.
  40. +8
    27 November 2019 22: 49
    Quote: ccsr
    something tells me that your level is not the General Staff

    You are right - my level is the head of the ministry.
    1. 0
      28 November 2019 11: 47
      Quote: Operator
      my level is the head of the ministry.

      Why then did you assign yourself the nickname "operator" - it is not respectable for a military man, because "operators" are usually those who had a connection with the Main Operational Directorate of the General Staff or the operational directorate of the district headquarters. At least that was the custom in my time. However, you did not specify which ministry, so it is quite possible that this is practiced in your structure.
      1. +8
        28 November 2019 11: 52
        I was in the civil service not in the Ministry of Defense, but in another (but also militarized) ministry and was in charge of sectoral automated control systems - hence the nickname "operator".
        1. +1
          28 November 2019 17: 53
          Quote: Operator
          I was in the civil service not in the Moscow Region

          I understood everything - each structure has its own slang, which is why I was surprised.
  41. 0
    28 November 2019 13: 04
    I’ll add a bit.
    To begin with, it is worth recalling that the USSR for a long time lost in the "race of low noise" - domestic nuclear submarines were much inferior in this indicator to our "sworn friends". The situation began to level off on the latest multipurpose nuclear powered 2 generation. The same Americans noted that domestic Victor III submarines of the 671RTMK project are noticeably quieter than previous types of Soviet submarines, so the gap in this indicator between them and the US nuclear submarines has narrowed significantly.
    This is true. However, if we take into account the growth dynamics of the capabilities to detect SSBNs, then they increased them faster than we reduced the noise.
    “For the first time since we launched the Nautilus, a situation arose that the Russians in the sea have submarines that are quieter than ours.”
    But he did not note that it is precisely when the levels drop below background that Russian submarines are detected. The Americans' concept for 15-20 years is to maintain the background level by disguising themselves as it.
    Well, theoretically, a double-hulled boat cannot be less noisy than a single-hulled boat (in the low-frequency ranges with external radiation).
    Thus, the combat stability of the strategic nuclear forces has obviously increased significantly.
    When in an air defense missile system in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk. But how to secretly reach him? They just won’t give it.

    In other words, even assuming that so far the Americans have managed to control 80-90% of all our SSBNs on combat duty (the author also came across such estimates, which, however, is extremely doubtful) ...
    According to the Pacific Fleet. From 1983 to 1991 it is.

    Well, you did not mark the so-called "non-traditional" search and tracking tools. And they have a multiple advantage in this.
    However, you already had an article referring to Sokerin, Klimov and Semenov.
    1. -1
      2 December 2019 17: 53
      Hello, dear Alex!
      I am extremely grateful to you for taking the time and opportunity to speak on the merits of the issue. This is what I really missed in our "conversation" in the comments to the previous article. This is the first time I hear this from you about "Pike", thanks, very interesting.
      Let me clarify the question. You write
      Quote: Polinom
      When in an air defense missile system in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk. But how to secretly reach him? They just won’t give it.

      и
      Quote: Polinom
      According to the Pacific Fleet. From 1983 to 1991 it is.

      Should your words be understood in such a way that the Americans landed on the "tail" of our SSBNs during the transition to Okhotskoye and thanks to this 80-90% of strategic missile carriers were tracked even there? Or does your estimate of 80-90% refer only to ocean cruises of SSBNs?
      1. 0
        3 December 2019 12: 14
        You read the article "Anti-submarine warfare. A view from the U.S.S.R." http://samlib.ru/editors/s/semenow_aleksandr_sergeewich333/protivolodochnaioborona-2019.shtml
        There is a piece of the working card. What and how was checked. Here is a complete map of my then.
        They began to drive into the air defense system not from a good life. Even across the First Kuril Strait in the surface, to bring down the tail.
        Were practiced ON POSSIBLE WAR. Penzhinsky, Ust-Bolsheretsky, Kronotsky ZRBD.
        Then there was something to ensure the exit and protection of the air defense system.
        Difficult to share. For they often drove SSBNs into Okhotskoye. They were checked many times for "fox" (Aviation and PLA). If it was clean, then they were taken out into the ocean. Especially 667AU with their missile ranges.
        Well, to understand that the deployed forces at the Post BG and at the signal (threatened period or administrative order) are different. In addition, we checked them in the area of ​​responsibility of the KVF. The ocean zone is not ours.
        And yes, what was carried out by aviation, almost 80-90% noted tracking. There is a SSBN symbol (in red) and a Be-12 signature (for example). That is, it is a fox. Yellow circle - hidden tracking. Signature NS unhidden. I indicated with arrows. Well, and the boat number. If you knew. Who discovered. Blue color - foreign submarine, signature inside who discovered. Its coordinates are on the front lower corner of the boat symbol. Well, the accuracy is still there, I just made it for memory and carried it with me for reference. There was also one in Avach Bay, but the size is large and the scale is different there. Everything was dotted there.))) But I burned it when I was discharged, out of sin.

  42. +9
    28 November 2019 14: 43
    Quote: ser56
    which was the result of crazy growth

    An increase by an order of magnitude of the Red Army was caused by a lack of funds for its maintenance. Taking advantage of the foreign economic crisis of the USSR from the 1920s, it contained very small armed forces (similar to the USA, for example). After the start of the militarization of Germany and the conclusion of the Munich Pact, it was decided to create large-scale armed forces of up to 8 million people (1941 mobile plan).

    Therefore, there were difficulties in growth, including in the preparation of the rank and file, sergeant and commanders, the formation, training and rallying from scratch of several hundred new divisions and corps.
  43. 0
    29 November 2019 02: 24
    Thanks twice, dear Andrey!
    And for an interesting article, and for the fact that they again began to lay out their work.
    On the topic, I want to bring the story of a comrade who served an urgent in the mid-80s in the Northern Fleet in an atomic missile submarine. I asked him today, how, they say, did the Americans spot you? He said that when his boat surfaced, the officers first ran out onto the deck to see what color it was.
    The fact is that when the Americans discovered our boat, they poured something into the sea, and the hull of the submarine was painted orange. How they did this, my friend does not know, but if this happened, the boat commander was written off to the shore.
    When asked if this happened to his boat, he replied that during his service they went on a military campaign twice and returned twice with a clean hull.
    They always went to the Atlantic under camouflage cover. Excitement prevailed during the campaign, the guys were aware that they were carrying out a combat mission, and tried their best. Even slobs (he put it a little differently laughing ) tried to keep up.
    1. 0
      2 December 2019 17: 46
      Greetings, dear colleague!
      Quote: Comrade
      He said that when his boat surfaced, the officers first ran out onto the deck to see what color it was.
      The fact is that when the Americans discovered our boat, they poured something into the sea, and the hull of the submarine was painted orange

      Perhaps I am mistaken, but could it be that your friend went on a multipurpose rocket boat? Like "Anthea" project 949A or earlier ships - carriers of anti-ship missiles?
      1. 0
        3 December 2019 00: 32
        Hello Andrey !
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        but could it be that your friend went on a multipurpose missile boat? Like "Anthea" project 949A?

        Your assumption was confirmed, my friend really served on a submarine of either project 949, or 949A. Without specifying the project, he said that they had 24 "lionfish" on board.
        Yes, he also told how they had fun there at the base. Boring, there is nothing to do, here the men will catch the cormorant, draw red stars on his wings and let them go. Like, let the NATO Allies see who is in the Navy.
    2. 0
      3 December 2019 12: 24
      It was like that in the early 80s. laughing
      He wrote in the story.
      "In the morning, the operative has several corporals from the second flotilla, waiting for Komovsky's Il-62. There is such a plane, the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy. Arrived yesterday from Moscow, and today is returning.
      - And what, flew after them three? I ask the manager of the ensign.
      -Yes. Here in the morning we run, how much to give the application.
      It turns out that the boat came from military service. And the rubber coating is stained with some incomprehensible paint.

      The options were- got into a landfill, where it all floated in the form of a suspension at a certain depth. Whether this is so, our Americans began to mark boats. Perhaps ultraviolet or radiation. Here the command was alarmed.
      They cut off a piece of rubber and now drag it all to Moscow for research at the institute.

      -So what are you by plane, another passage under the ice to the north. Still grab on the GSS. (GSS- Hero of the Soviet Union). But the boat is explored all.

      Kaprazy inflated, not accustomed to the junior jokes in rank.

      Apparently, it was the notorious K-433. Which got into some kind of filth, as the submariners later said, resembling a clot of jelly. So much so that the boat shuddered. The whole thing was blamed on the Quakers and calmed down. "
  44. 0
    30 November 2019 00: 13
    Firstly, the purpose of SSBNs is not stealth, but pressure on the enemy, to force the enemy to spend much more effort and resources on defense against SSBNs than is spent on SSBNs. And stealth is simply one of the methods that increases such pressure.
    Secondly, there are other methods of detecting submarines (not by noise), and methods of masking the noise of submarines, and methods of breaking through submarines.
    But to look at it so narrowly, limiting oneself to one parameter - noise, means to limit one’s strategic (“admiral’s”) vision and to lose in advance.

    And, yes, also - somehow in the doctrines of admirals I have never encountered any reasoning (let alone calculations) about the public efficiency of the fleet, but the opposite, how to force the motherland to spend as much as possible on them - constantly. If someone points to documents refuting this thesis - I will be only glad.
    1. +1
      30 November 2019 11: 25
      Quote: srha
      Firstly, the meaning of the SSBN is not in secrecy, but in pressure on the enemy,

      What prevents pressuring the enemy with cheaper heavy missile cruisers with ballistic missiles on board? Only one thing interferes - they cannot be hidden, that's why surface ships, as platforms for strategic ballistic missiles, were abandoned back in the days of Khrushchev.
      Quote: srha
      in order to force the enemy to spend forces and resources on defense against the SSBN much more than it spends on the SSBN.

      But this is a moot point, because the cost of SSBNs is simply astronomical due to their uniqueness, but the means for detecting and combating them can be cheaper and mass-produced in large quantities, which reduces the cost of PLO means.
      Quote: srha
      Secondly, there are other methods of detecting submarines (not by noise), and methods of masking the noise of submarines, and methods of breaking through submarines.

      U.S. civilian, dual-use satellites can detect surface warships, but our submarines are too tough for this, they require specialized reconnaissance satellites, which are very expensive. That is why the future for the SSBN.
      Quote: srha
      somehow, in the admiral’s doctrines, I’ve never met with reasoning (let alone calculations) about the social effectiveness of the fleet,

      You couldn't "meet" them, because such R&D is ordered not even by sailors, but by those who scientifically substantiate the content of our nuclear triad for the government of the country. Ordering such research from a naval research institute is the same as "letting a goat into the garden" - they will draw such pictures that we will start building canals in Kamchatka.
      Quote: srha
      If someone points out documents refuting this thesis - I will only be glad.

      Contact the General Staff with a request - they will tell you in which direction to move.
      1. 0
        2 December 2019 17: 20
        Yes, I'm not a maritime specialist. But I remember the thesis that admirals are always preparing for the last war. In the light of the information that Americans have the means of accurately positioning Russian submarines in the depths of the ocean on principles different from acoustic ones, and not to consider such an opportunity... this is mistake.

        I also consider the thesis erroneous:
        Quote: ccsr
        Only one thing bothers - they cannot be hidden
        It seems to me that even sailors should not forget themselves so much as not to remember about land, for example, land-based silo installations, which, for sure, are not only not hidden, but in general, everyone can look on the Internet where they are - and this does not prevent them from exerting "pressure". Will it not turn out that single supposedly hidden nuclear submarines will be destroyed in the ocean, and surface formations with active protection will be more stable?

        The issue of cost comparison is clarified when analyzing budgets. The US budget is almost open ...

        With social efficiency, you somehow understood me exactly the opposite. Therefore, I repeat: the social efficiency of everything, including the Navy, should be controlled by society, but the admirals should report on the results achieved, and not the "goat", this is their, admiral's, results ...

        And I got the impression that you didn’t like some of my amateurish (I'm not a sailor) questions, but also your unsubscribes
        Quote: ccsr
        Contact the General Staff with a request - they will tell you in which direction to move.
        I do not need. Why do you need them?

        Yes, by the way, with regards to the "past wars" - satellites are now cheap (especially in relation to the budget of the Navy), even universities launch them in dozens.
        1. +1
          2 December 2019 18: 49
          Quote: srha
          But I remember the thesis that admirals are always preparing for the last war.

          This thesis took place in the pre-nuclear era, and to be more precise, for us the issue of war with America was resolved in the early 70s, when we first got the opportunity to completely destroy them from our territory.
          So all the higher military men have since been preparing for only one war, although they have correctly portrayed the appearance that we may have a nuclear-free war, and this was done exclusively either because of delusions, or because of having extra stars on uniform. Such is the homespun truth, which not everyone is aware of.
          Quote: srha
          Is it possible that single, supposedly hidden nuclear submarines will be destroyed in the ocean, and surface formations with active protection will be more stable?

          This can happen in theory, but in practice, to prevent this from happening, both technical and organizational issues are studied to ensure that at least part of the naval strategic nuclear forces are hit in any situation. I don’t think that our navy would not deal with these issues - they understand that if they fail, they will be allowed to go under the knife, like the battleships under Khrushchev.
          Quote: srha
          the social effectiveness of everything, including the same Navy, must be controlled by society,

          This cannot be in principle, because it is a state secret, and if you even know the distribution of budgetary funds within the Ministry of Defense, you can indirectly determine what the state’s military power will be in the future.
          Quote: srha
          that you didn’t like some of my amateurish (I'm not a sailor) questions,

          I am also not a sailor, but there are general laws of armed struggle, and if they are approached from a materialistic point of view, it becomes clear what the further prospect of developing our strategic nuclear forces is. The main factor in the future war will be the time factor, i.e. the period from the decision to start the war to the launch of the first missiles, as well as the flight time of the warheads themselves. That's why everything will be built to reduce these two time intervals to the very minimum, and in order to understand how promising these or those types of our triads are, we must proceed only from these two values. Everything else will be secondary, or in one way or another take these two time intervals into account.
          Quote: srha
          Yes, by the way, with regards to the "past wars" - satellites are now cheap (especially in relation to the budget of the Navy), even universities launch them in dozens.

          This is not an entirely correct comparison, because hundreds of ships and yachts are not worth the power of one SSBN, and reconnaissance satellites cost a lot of money in comparison with all "cheap satellites".
          1. 0
            4 December 2019 08: 12
            Quote: ccsr
            This cannot be in principle, because it is a state secret
            Not so. Or rather, it shouldn't be so, because it leads to abuse. But there are control methods.

            I recall the past, as before the war, intelligence tried to determine the performance of some important chemical. They tried to infiltrate the plant, count on communications (wagons), find out something through the ministries ... In general, a lot of money, time, lost scouts, but there is no result ... And then, some of our factory director passes through this city and writes about the capacity of the plant in a business trip report. He answered the question how he found out, like
            - I saw the pipe.
            - What does the pipe have to do with it?
            - Well, the exhaust gases, the volume is calculated based on the pipe size, I know the technology and standards, and the volume of products corresponds to the waste. That's all.

            The tale is a lie, but a hint in it: no secrecy will save from technological knowledge and skills.
            1. +1
              4 December 2019 12: 57
              Quote: srha
              Not this way. Rather, it should not be, because this leads to abuse. But there are control methods.

              There is no need to build illusions - even inside the Ministry of Defense there are articles of expenditure that only a limited circle of military leaders know, and where inspectors from other structures are not allowed to.
              Quote: srha
              I recall the past, as before the war, intelligence

              Now more than 95% of all intelligence information is received from the technical means of intelligence, so "reality" is now irrelevant.
              Quote: srha
              no secrecy will save from technological knowledge and skills.

              Organizational measures just allow us to prevent those who are not supposed to know them from being our secrets. It’s just that sometimes they don’t work, especially when a person intentionally betrays.
              1. 0
                4 December 2019 17: 14
                Quote: ccsr
                so the "reality" is now irrelevant.
                Are you for technological illiteracy and secrecy from public control?
                Quote: ccsr
                Organizational measures just allow us to prevent those who are not supposed to know them from being our secrets.
                Do you know? But even the luminosity of cities at night, tracked by cheap satellites, allows in some cases to bypass the "Organizational measures" of last century ago and draw conclusions, if you can correctly interpret the information "from technical means of intelligence" - by the way, that director did exactly that, if you consider his eyes "technical means". And the professionals could not.
                1. +1
                  4 December 2019 20: 29
                  Quote: srha
                  Are you for technological illiteracy and secrecy from public control?

                  I am for us to have it like the Americans - there should be closed articles, and no one except a few people in the state has the right to control the expenses on these articles. For example, intelligence activities of the special services - are you suggesting that some silk-operators from the State Duma or the Federation Council know how much money we spend on this or that special operation in different countries? Don't make me laugh, this is complete nonsense, considering the contingent that gets into the elected structures.
                  Quote: srha
                  You know? But even the luminosity of cities at night tracked by cheap satellites makes it possible in some cases to bypass the "Organizational measures" of the past century

                  You do not seem to be in the know what is meant by "organizational measures", and they begin with the selection of personnel. And then a whole complex exists.
                  Quote: srha
                  But the professionals could not.

                  Professionals have achieved even more - read Nikolsky's "GRU during the Great Patriotic War" or other authors who reveal the successes of intelligence officers of the past.
  45. kig
    +1
    4 December 2019 04: 53
    What's the point of arguing if you don't know the exact performance characteristics, ours and others? If you don't know the American statistics on the detection of our submarines? Of course, I want to believe...
  46. -1
    6 December 2019 12: 59
    Did you, sir, serve in the headquarters of the submarine fleet command? No. Then the article is about nothing. Firstly, it is classified information. Data from open sources is not. But I talked to submariners when I worked for them. Conclusions. Have you ever been on a submarine, not a museum one. I worked in a combat unit. Examples of American articles. They would write even worse.
  47. 0
    23 December 2019 06: 50
    The creation of a group of SSBNs in the Caspian will provide Russia with the ability to fully protect even 2nd generation strategic missile carriers from US ASW forces. Considering that the range of the Liner and Sineva installed on the Dolphins and Kalmars reaches 11,5 thousand km, and the throw weight is 2,8 tons (10 warheads), then reducing the throw weight and the number of warheads thrown will increase the range, making the R-29 missiles virtually semi-orbital (which are no longer prohibited by international treaties). The deployment of Dolphins and Kalmars to the Caspian is technologically possible. It is possible to equip basing sites in Kaspiysk. And the Caspian waters are not patrolled by US submarines and ASW aircraft.
  48. 0
    5 August 2020 11: 08
    there's a sea of ​​water in the comments: they were talking about strategists, but they got to the Great Patriotic War and cavalry... cool! in essence... the main hopes of the triad are on ground forces: mines, mobile installations and railway complexes. It's best to have 30-50 railway complexes: always "on wheels", not easy to track, launch practically quickly and from any point of the route... etc. etc. but they were treacherously curtailed and the now well-known friends of the people do not want to launch them into production... let's return to the underwater component and around... there is no modern surface support a priori: there is no naval aviation, the auxiliary fleet and escort ships and boats are in the pen and in theory, the coastal infrastructure is there too... torpedo and anti-torpedo weapons "from the times of Ochakov and the conquest of Crimea"... weasels and huskies cannot even by definition swim and dive normally: they have another canine purpose (analogy with a mace)... general electronics (acoustics, noise and signal processing, etc.) are already lagging behind Japan, China, Korea, Denmark, Sweden, Germany... Two main bases (in space, air, on water and under water) are very tightly controlled... It is no secret that almost all missile carriers are "grazing" the Yankees... hope that at least one will survive and make it in time shooting back is just not serious... the Yankees have been walking around under the Arctic ice as they please for a long time, doing a lot of scientific and research work - a secret for those who do NOT want to know about it... it's really hard to understand the mess with these modernizations, various projects and projects... someone mentioned naval commanders, WOW! and where are they, and when was the last time they were seen in person? There is a merger between the military-industrial complex and the navy - in the highest offices... now hold on, adversary!!!
  49. 0
    6 May 2021 22: 23
    As an officer who served on the 941 project for 15 years, I can add that the combat stability of the RPK SN still largely depends on the area of ​​​​combat service. The Americans did not go under the ice of the Arctic, and they do not go to the inner White and Okhotsk seas.