Military Review

The myth of the Tatar-Mongol yoke

550
The myth of the Tatar-Mongol yoke

The assault of Vladimir by the Horde. Thumbnail from Russian annals


Secrets of ancient Rus. The term “Tatar-Mongols” is not in the Russian chronicles, neither V. N. Tatishchev, nor N. M. Karamzin and other historians, the founding fathers of the Russian have it historical schools. “Mongols” are the Russes of the Scythian Siberian world, the most powerful and great people of Northern Eurasia from the Urals to the Pacific Ocean. The "Mongols" were Aryan Indo-Europeans, not the Mongoloids. The myth of the "Mongol-Tatar yoke" was invented in the Vatican in order to distort the true history of Russia and the Rus (Russian people).

The problem of the "Tatar-Mongols"


The term "Mongol-Tatars" is artificial, coined, it is not in Russian sources, the first Russian historians do not. The term “Mongol-Tatars” itself is not a self-name or ethnonym for the peoples of Mongolia (Khalkha, Oirats). This is an artificial term that was first introduced by P. Naumov in 1823 in the article “On the attitude of Russian princes to the Mongol and Tatar khans from 1224 to 1480”.

Some researchers derive the term "Mongols" from the Chinese characters "man-gu" - to receive the ancient. " Obviously, this is absurdity, nonsense. In reality, the "Mongols", in the original version, without the nasal "n", "mogul" (in India they were called that), comes from the root word "could, can," - "mozh, husband, mighty, mighty, powerful" (he who “can”, “mighty”, hence “mighty”), and the end of the plural “-ola” (for example, “Voguls”). It was from the "mighty, powerful" that the "Mongols" appeared as "greats." The people who created the greatest empire of Eurasia.

The only people who could build such a world power were the Rus of the Scythian Siberian world. The most powerful ethnic group of the huge forest-steppe zone of Eurasia from the southern Russian steppes, the Urals to the Pacific Ocean. Only they can be called "great", "powerful", "Mughal-Mongols." Other ethnic groups and tribes could not claim such a title. More details about the Rus of Eurasia can be found in the following works: Yu. D. Petukhov, “Rus of Eurasia”; N. I. Vasiliev, Yu. D. Petukhov, “Russian Scythia”.

It is also known that before the beginning of the XII century. n e. Mongols and Tatars were at enmity. And this is not surprising. Mughal Mongols are Indo-Europeans (Aryans), and Tatars are Turks. From the "Secret Legend" it is known that the Moguls (Siberian Rus) hated the Tatars (steppe Turks). For some period, Temuchin (Genghis Khan) “got on” the Tatars, included them in his super union of tribes. And then, for his disobedience and the possibility of betrayal, he ordered everyone to be cut down: all the men above the axis of the cart, women and children were distributed by birth, for assimilation. The word "Tatar" in that era was an insult to the Mughals. Therefore, the term "Mongol-Tatars" is purely cabinet.

Much later, the Volga Bulgars began to be called the ethnonym "Tatars", then other fragments of the Golden Horde - Astrakhan, Crimean Tatars, etc. Although the ethnonym "Bulgars" comes from the "Volgar". That is, "Volga Bulgars-Volgars" is an obvious tautology. "Volgars" belong to the group of intermediate genera, with a large initial Indo-European component. The division of boreals into Indo-Europeans and Prototurks occurred in the Southern Urals in 3 - the beginning of 2 thousand BC. e. Part of the intermediate clans, in the predominance of the Indo-European part, settled on the Volga, becoming "Volgar" -bulgars. The original Turks, including the Tatars, who inherited from Temuchin, lived east and south. At the same time, the Siberian Russ, having reached Bulgaria, did not begin to cut out all the “Volgars”, although they showed strong resistance. Bulgars for the most part, after the elimination of the hostile nobility (Islamized), were accepted into the hordes of the "Mongols". They had the same initial spiritual and material traditions, the same language (a dialect of the common language of the Russians, as now Little Russian-Ukrainian is the adverb of the common Russian language), as the Siberian Rus-Mongols. Therefore, the genera of the Bulgars easily integrated into the all-imperial Northern Eurasian tradition, and later the Kazan “Tatars” became active builders of the common Russian empire-empire, part of the Russian superethnos.

Thus, the Big, “Mongolian” Horde is a Scythian-Siberian-Volga clan of pagan Rus (including Polovtsy and Alans). The Horde is the direct descendant of Great Scythia and Sarmatia, the ancient northern tradition and civilization of the Indo-Aryans. At the peak of their power, the Russians controlled Northern Eurasia, developed on the southern civilizations of Asia - Persian, Indian, Chinese and Japanese (it is interesting that there, in particular in India, as in the "reserve", many traditions of the Eurasian Rus survived, which our enemies were able to erase in the north). There were no other “Mongol-Mongoloids” who had developed many thousands of years of spiritual and material culture, the production necessary to equip powerful armies, a military cult capable of great campaigns and conquests in Northern Eurasia.

The myth of the Tatar-Mongol yoke


The truth is that there are no “Mongol-Mongoloids” from Mongolia in Russia in the 13th – 15th centuries. did not have. The present Mongols are Mongoloids. But archaeologists did not find skulls of the Mongoloids in Ryazan, Vladimir-Suzdal, or Kievan Rus. There are no signs of Mongoloidism among Russians. Although with a large-scale invasion of tens of thousands of soldiers, a long “yoke” should have such signs. If those innumerable tumenes-darkness passed through Russia and the Mongols drove many thousands of Russian women to their camps, and then also dominated the Russian lands for a long time, then anthropological Mongoloid material would certainly remain. Because Mongoloidity is dominant, overwhelming. It was enough for thousands of Mongols to rape thousands of Russian women, and Russian burial grounds for many generations would be filled with Mongols.

So, Polish historians, Russophobes, and Ukrainian behind them, have long come up with a theory about Russian Asians. Like, Slavs in Muscovites did not remain, Russians are a mixture of Mongols and Finno-Ugric peoples. And the real descendants of Kiev Rus are Ukrainians. However, genetics shows that the Rus-Russians do not have signs of Mongoloidity, the Russians are Caucasoids. In the Russian cemeteries of the time of the "Horde" are only the Caucasian Europeans. Mongoloidism in Russia appeared only in the 16th - 17th centuries. instead of serving Tatars, who in masses entered the service of the Russian tsars and themselves, being originally Caucasians, acquired Mongoloid features on the eastern borders of Russia, taking natives as their wives.

Thus, all these tales and tales about narrow-eyed riders, iron archers, who conquered a significant part of Eurasia, is a myth. It was invented in the West in order to distort the true history of Russia, Europe and humanity. Russian history was radically circumcised, almost before Baptism, and rewritten in the interests of Rome and its heirs. Rusov turned into a "wild" tribe that did not know the written language and barely crept out of the marshes in the middle of 1 thousand AD e. Savage barbarians, to whom statehood, civilization, culture and writing were instilled by German Vikings and Greek missionaries.

Wandering monks, missionaries (Catholic intelligence) wrote reports to the "control center" (Vatican). They wrote everything that they knew or came up with, confused, and introduced popular rumors. Based on these reports, they have already written "the history of the great Mongols." These "stories" came from West to East, to Russia already as an indisputable truth. Under the Romanovs, German historians wrote the “history of Russia” in the political interests of Europe. Thus was born the great myth of the great "Mongols from Mongolia." Novels, paintings were written, films began to be shot, as the Mongol tumens from Mongolia came to Russia and Europe. Nowadays, it has come to the point that in the films the “Mongols” are shown as real “Chinese” - the Russian fantasy action movie The Legend of Kolovrat (2017). Although even in Europe, the engravings of the “Mongols” depict Russian Cossacks, boyars and archers.

Lack of capacity to create a “Mongolian” empire


Mongolia so far does not have the spiritual, productive and human potential to create a world empire. There is no great military culture, like the Rus-Russians, or the Japanese and Germans. In the XII century. the Mongolian steppe could not expose the numerous, well-armed, disciplined and high fighting spirits of the army of conquerors, going "to the last sea". Mongolia simply could not conquer such developed and strong powers - China, Central Asia (Khorezm), Russia, half of Europe, Persia, etc.

This is complete nonsense. In the then Mongolia there simply wasn’t a developed industrial, material culture to arm many thousands of soldiers. There was no developed production, crafts, wild steppes and hunters could not become blacksmiths, metallurgists, builders, engineers, great warriors within one generation. Iron discipline and military spirit cannot be instilled in wild camps, something millions of blacks with AK do not conquer the planet. The organization of the army of the "Mongols" is typically Indo-European, the Russian - decimal. Darkness - 10 thousand warriors, thousand, one hundred and ten. The level of spiritual and material culture of the Mongoloid clans of Mongolia of the 12th - 13th centuries approximately corresponded to the culture of the Indian tribes of the Great Lakes of the XVII century. They just started to master cattle breeding, they were hunters. At this level of development, one cannot conquer half the world, build a powerful empire.

Rus war with Rus


Therefore, about the "Mongols from Mongolia" must be forgotten. There were none. But there were wars, storms of the city and fortresses, tithe was. Who fought? The authors of the new chronology Fomenko and Nosovsky answered this question non-traditionally: they believe that these were internal wars between the Russians and the containers of Russia, on the one hand, and the Russians, Cossacks and containers of the Horde, on the other. Big Russia was split into two fronts, into two Russia - Siberian-pagan and European-Christian (de facto double faith reigned, the ancient Russian faith had not yet left, and became part of Russian Christianity), two hostile dynasties - western and eastern. The Eastern Russian Horde was the “Mongol horde” that beat the Russian rati, stormed the cities, and tithed. She went down in history as the "Tatar yoke", "evil Tatarism." The chronicles did not know the Mongols and Mongoloids, but the Russian chroniclers knew and wrote about the Tatars and "filthy" pagans.

Chronicles reported the arrival of the "tongue of the unknowable", "trash." Who was this “language" of the people? Where did the Horde come to Russia? Huge territories from the Northern Black Sea coast through the Volga and the Southern Urals to Altai, Sayan and Mongolia itself, those territories that were inhabited by mythical "Mongols", called "Tartaria", actually belonged to the Scythian Siberian world, Great Scythia-Sarmatia. Long before the departure of the last wave of Indo-European Aryans in 2 thousand BC e., who left the Northern Black Sea Region and the Southern Urals to Persia-Iran and India, Indo-European Caucasians mastered the forest-steppe zone from the Carpathians and the Danube to the Sayan Mountains. They led a semi-nomadic way of life, engaged in cattle breeding and agriculture. Used a horse tamed in the southern Russian steppes. They had developed production, crafts, and the cult of a warrior. They left behind a lot of barrows with carts, rich utensils, weapons. They were the masters of a vast space from the Crimea (Taurus Scythians-Rus) to the Pacific Ocean. They dominated in Mongolia, brought metallurgy, agriculture, civilization as a whole. The local Mongoloids, who were still in the Stone Age, could not compete with the Caucasians. But they retained the memory of them as giants, light-eyed and fair-haired heroes. Hence the light-eyed, light-eyed Genghis Khan. The military elite, the nobility of Transbaikalia, Khakassia, Mongolia, was Indo-European. Only these sorts of Scythian-Siberians were the only real military force that created the world empire. The exodus of the Rus to the East and West led to the weakening of their ethnucleus, later they disappeared into the Mongoloid masses of the East, but remained in the legends and fair-haired and gray-eyed giants (the sign of Mongoloidity is small growth).

Here is a part of these pagan Rus (Scythian-hermitage-skloty) and came to the North-East and South Russia. Anthropologically, genetically, in their spiritual and material culture (mainly the Scythian "animal" style), the late Scythians-Rus were the same Russians as the Russians of Ryazan, Moscow, Novgorod or Kiev. Outwardly, they differed only in the style of clothing - the Scythian Siberian animal style, the dialect of the Russian language and faith - were "filthy" for Christian chroniclers. Also, the Scythians were carriers of a concentrated military cult - the Cossacks. In general, the Horde was the Cossacks, who tried to establish their rules on all Russian lands.

The notorious “Mongol yoke” did not bring anything to Russia. There are no words, no customs, no Mongoloid. The word "horde" itself is a distorted Russian word "glad, kind." The princes of Siberian Rus called themselves khans. But even in Kievan Rus, princes, for example, Vladimir or Yaroslav the Wise, were called kagans-kogans. The word “kogan-kokhan” (abbreviation “khan-khan”) is not of Mongolian origin. This is a Russian word meaning “chosen”, “beloved” (preserved in Little Russia as “kokhan” - “beloved”). It is not surprising that the Scythian Rus easily found a common language with the Russian princes (for example, with Alexander Nevsky), the boyars, the church, had relatives, brothers, and married daughters on both sides. The Scythians were not strangers.

Thus, it was not the Mongoloids and not the Tatars (Bulgars) who came to Russia, but the only real force - the Scythians. Therefore, the three-century dominance of the “yoke” did not leave any anthropological changes in the population of Russia. The Horde themselves were Caucasoid Rus, the eastern core of the superethnos of the Rus. Therefore, they naturally became part of the Russian people. The population of the Horde (Horde, Polovtsy, Alans, etc.) just in one moment became Russian.

The image of the Golden Horde as a completely alien Russia of a foreign hostile state in which the “Mongols” reign supreme is false, created by the enemies of Russian civilization and people. There were no Mongol Mongols in the Horde. There were Volga Bulgars ("Tatars"), there were Scythian Rus. A huge empire "from sea to sea" was created by pagan Rus of the Scythian Siberian world. A great power perished due to Islamization and Arabization. As soon as Islam took up the Horde, a spiritual and religious confrontation began between the parts of the empire, dividing into "friends" and "strangers." As the Horde Empire degenerated, the "control center" of northern civilization gradually moved to Moscow. Under Ivan the Terrible, Russia restored the unity of the Eurasian empire.
Author:
Articles from this series:
Secrets of ancient Rus

How the Russians converted to Islam
The Mystery of Russian Khazaria
"Slavic Atlantis" in Central Europe
Arsa-Artania - the ancient power of the Rus
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  1. Aaron Zawi
    Aaron Zawi 22 November 2019 05: 42
    +21
    Amazing business. It turns out that the Arab and Chinese contemporaries of the Mongol conquests were "enemies of Russian civilization." This is probably why the Jin State, the Hormzshah State and the Baghdad Caliphate were subjected to monstrous destruction and complete destruction. I am not even talking about Georgia and the Alanian state practically wiped off the face of the earth. And the Russian chronicles, describing the first arrival of the Mongols in 1223, do not forget to emphasize their closeness to the Kipchaks. About the fact that during the conquest of the Russian principalities in 1237-40, such a blow was dealt to the East Slavic civilization that it was necessary to leave it for almost 500 years with blood and then it is also not worth remembering. Why dwell on such trifles?
    1. Alexander Suvorov
      Alexander Suvorov 22 November 2019 06: 42
      +29
      The notorious “Mongol yoke” did not bring anything to Russia. There are no words, no customs, no Mongoloid. The word "horde" itself is a distorted Russian word "glad, kind." The princes of Siberian Rus called themselves khans. But in Kievan Rus, princes, for example, Vladimir or Yaroslav the Wise, were called kagans-kogans.
      Ahhhh ... take the computer from Samsonov, I can’t stand it anymore.
      I have a feeling that Mikhail Zadornov came to life, his kingdom to heaven. I respect him as a satirist, but here as a historian negative . Enough already to carry nonsense about the superethnos of the Russians, well, the truth is, the brain breaks when reading such nonsense.
      The Horde themselves were Caucasoid Rus, the eastern core of the superethnos of the Rus. Therefore, they naturally became part of the Russian people. The population of the Horde (Horde, Polovtsy, Alans, etc.) just in one moment became Russian.
      Alans, it’s like modern Ossetians, but you asked them who they consider themselves to be, Russians or all the same Ossetians? About Polovtsy the same trouble.
      Samsonov, write about the revolution and the Civil War, do not touch the theme of the Arye-Scythian-Russes of the ancestors of everyone and everything. In this you are likened to ancient ukrams, are you not ashamed of yourself ?!
      1. The leader of the Redskins
        The leader of the Redskins 22 November 2019 07: 53
        +12
        Here you go! They have been hammering for five years that there were no Ukrainians and no, now that there were no Mongols and no ... And what did I teach at school for ten years and five at institutes ?! And there, professors did not write a book to the current experts! am
        1. Flooding
          Flooding 22 November 2019 08: 39
          +2
          Quote: Leader of the Redskins
          Five years hammered that there were no Ukrainians and no

          Do not worry so.
          Even Ukraine was packed, tied with a bow and presented.
          Who better than the Ukrainians? Not Kolomoisky.
          1. sevryuk
            sevryuk 22 November 2019 11: 11
            +2
            Why wasn’t it? They lived in the Middle Dnieper, mainly on the Left Bank, called Little Russians and Cherkasy.
        2. Krasnoyarsk
          Krasnoyarsk 22 November 2019 09: 02
          +5
          Quote: Leader of the Redskins
          e was and is not ... And what did I then teach at school for five years and five at institutes? !!! And there, professors did not write a book to the current experts!

          So earlier, too, clever "professors" wrote - the earth is flat, stands on three whales, well, then you know, and people like you then some on the fire. Say that he is talking nonsense, I ... for eleven years studied about three whales on which the earth ...
        3. Uncle Izya
          Uncle Izya 22 November 2019 10: 16
          +2
          And in Western Ukraine, especially that Hitler was a liberator, and Poland printed the textbooks, they demolished the monuments and everything in order to erase the memory that the Poles liberated Europe
      2. Krasnoyarsk
        Krasnoyarsk 22 November 2019 08: 57
        -6
        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
        Well, the truth is, the brain is breaking

        Is there really something to break? Is it so numb?
        Yu. Petukhov has such a book - "By the paths of the gods", read it, maybe your brain "softens" a little and stops breaking.
        1. Alexander Suvorov
          Alexander Suvorov 22 November 2019 09: 07
          +4
          Krasnoyarsk
          Is there really something to break? Is it so numb?
          Imagine, unlike you, there is something.
          Yu. Petukhov has such a book - "By the paths of the gods", read it, maybe your brain "softens" a little and stops breaking.
          So I see that you have it softened. You still offer me a rezun with Fomenko for study. Below in the comments there is a sufficiently capacious and accurate definition of who Petukhov is.
          So use this rubbish yourself, there is nothing others to plant on your nonsense.
          1. Pavlov Sergey Alexandrovich
            Pavlov Sergey Alexandrovich 22 November 2019 09: 34
            +4
            Rezun is another storyteller)))
          2. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk 22 November 2019 19: 33
            +18
            Quote: Alexander Suvorov
            Below in the comments there is a sufficiently capacious and accurate definition of who Petukhov is.
            So use this rubbish yourself, there is nothing others to plant on your nonsense.

            In other words, I didn’t read it, but I angrily condemn it! Somewhere I already met similar.
            Y. Petukhov is an unprofessional historian. Therefore, it is not subject to officialdom. He devoted 25 years of his life to researching the topics of his book.
            But actually, don’t, don’t read, and then -
            Quote: Alexander Suvorov
            ... I immediately wanted to run away for half a liter, ...
            you cling to it again, and make VO guilty.
            I’m never a fan of Fomenko and Nosovsky, but, in fairness, it should be noted that I have never met a scientifically sound criticism of them. All criticism came down to the simple - this cannot be, because this cannot be.
            I draw your attention to the fact that the criticism of this article in the comments comes down to one thing - nonsense!
            No questions to the author, no objection to the case.
            When I criticized the article about the Golden Horde, I asked the author a reasonable question - show me material evidence of the existence of the Golden Horde. After all, the Mongoloid race captured and enslaved us. (You know that the Mongols, Koreans, Japanese, Vietnamese are people of the Mongoloid race) They are very different from us Europeans. And for 300 years of their rule, they did not leave their mark? Do you believe that? Of course you believe, because this is Comrade. Schlezer and Miller wrote, and you are a patriot, how can you not believe them.
            In the history of Russia that they wrote, Lomonosov beat them in the face. But who is this Lomonosov, Shletser and Miller? Yes, that’s a nonsense!
            1. Sentinel-vs
              Sentinel-vs 22 November 2019 19: 50
              +15
              I support you. I am not a supporter of the Fomenkovites or anyone else, but the opponents of this article really look like some kind of engaged fanatics. "False synchronists !!! Fomenkovites! Madhouse crying for you!", These are all their arguments by and large. In fact, 90% of the commentators said nothing, just galloped with tambourines of accusation.
              1. Krasnoyarsk
                Krasnoyarsk 22 November 2019 20: 08
                +5
                Quote: Sentinel-vs
                just galloped with tambourines of conviction.

                Yes, there is no reproof. In order to convict are necessary arguments, but where are they?
                Personally, I do not have them, so I am silent. But the rising whistle is not to my liking.
        2. Bigbraza
          Bigbraza 23 November 2019 00: 47
          +4
          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          Y. Petukhov has

          If we are talking about science fiction writer Petukhov, then I can only sympathize with you. To you and your rather softened brain.
          1. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk 23 November 2019 09: 43
            -1
            Quote: BigBraza

            If we are talking about science fiction writer Petukhov, then I can only sympathize with you. To you and your rather softened brain.

            Petukhov is better known as a historian-researcher, and not as a science fiction writer.
            Yes, Petukhov has, in my opinion, not entirely successful fiction. Except for one thing - "Thunderer". But this does not mean that his historical research is the same as his fantasy.
        3. icelord
          icelord April 19 2020 21: 26
          -1
          Are you all smokers?
      3. Sneaky Urus
        Sneaky Urus 22 November 2019 10: 08
        -5
        I fully support. Maybe Fomenko wrote an article? The same clown storyteller.
      4. vladcub
        vladcub 22 November 2019 10: 56
        +7
        "and you asked them who they think they are" I can imagine what they think about mental abilities. At best, they will show you at the temple.
      5. Pellikan
        Pellikan 22 November 2019 13: 51
        +5
        Alexander Vasilievich. or maybe you need to get acquainted in more detail with the history of the Aryan Slavs, who are the indigenous people of our civilization. Check out the research of academician Klesov "DNA geneology" who says that Russians have haplogroup R1A1, 82% of the male population, including Alans, Mordovians, Tatars and Bashkirs in Russia, 42% with the same haplogroup in Germany, 57% each in the Czech Republic and Poland, and even more than 50% in India among the Brahmins. I wish you success. Moreover, I advise Mavro Orbini, a medieval author wrote the book "The Slavic Kingdom" (by the way, it was banned by the Vatican, apparently for a reason).
        1. Sertorius
          Sertorius 22 November 2019 14: 18
          -10
          Dear Pelican!
          Klyosov is an academician? What a news!
          Russians - 82%? Have you read Klesov at all? And you think Orbini is serious
          historical source? Even knowing when he wrote and for whom he wrote? Orbini himself calls his customer stories! Thanks to such absurdities that you wrote, Klyosov, who is tendentious, but quite adequate as a researcher, has already become non grata in the scientific world.
          1. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk 22 November 2019 19: 46
            +6
            Quote: Sertorius
            the absurdities that you wrote, Klyosov, who is tendentious, but quite adequate as a researcher, has already become non grata in the scientific world.

            If it's not a secret, can you tell me where this "scientific world" is located? Isn't it an hour in Russia?
            To this "persona non grata" of the scientific world, the Americans give out grants for research. And he works out these grants. It is in Russia that they pay for the title - professor, Americans do not pay for it, they pay for the RESULT of scientific work. And Klesov has this result, in contrast to Russian professors. And if the "scientific world" of Russia accepts Klesov into its ranks, then many Russian "professors" will have to say goodbye to this title.
          2. RF man
            RF man 27 November 2019 15: 17
            +3
            Klyosov ADEQUALLY ARGUMENTS his position and does not suffer from special chauvinism or "Russophilism"
            But it is "EXTREMELY caustic" and NEGLECTED to its "apponents" and "NARLY makes fun of" THEIR work. HOW to "love" such? -)
            "Apponents", while not overthrowing Klyos' arguments, reduce "objections" to "pseudoscience."
            TO RECOGNIZE HIS arguments is to "send to the trash heap" THOUSANDS of representatives of the "scientific world."
            "Science moves" - LET'S FIND OUT, sooner or later the TRUTH-)
        2. Minato2020
          Minato2020 23 November 2019 05: 34
          +7
          Quote: Pellikan
          Moreover, I advise Mavro Orbini, a medieval author wrote the book "The Slavic Kingdom" (by the way, it was banned by the Vatican, apparently for a reason).


          The general picture of forgers about the alleged absence of ancient roots among the Slavs and the Russian people is being destroyed by the Catholic priest Mavro Orbini, who wrote the book "The Kingdom of the Slavs", which was published in 1601 in Italian and in which he claims that the Slavs came to Eastern Europe from Scandinavia already in 1460 year BC And apparently for this reason it was listed by the Vatican in the "Index of Forbidden Books". Why did this book so angered the falsifiers of history?

          Based on historical sources available at that time, M.Orbini writes in it (given in a modern translation):
          "At this time, the Goths came out of Scandinavia and under the same name and the Slavs, who formed a single people with the Goths. So, the Slavic people, having conquered all of Sarmatia to their sovereignty, subsequently split into several tribes and received different names, namely: Wends, Slavs, Antes, Verla, Heruli, Alans or Massagets, Girrs, Skirrs Serbs, Eminglens, Dacians, Swedes, Fenns or Finns, Prussians, Vandals Burgundians, Goths, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Getae, Gepids, Marcomanians, Quads, Avars, Singers, Bastars, Roxolans or Rus, Poles or Poles, Bohemians or Czechs, Schlents and Bulgars, who were all the same Slavic genus, which to this day surpasses all other peoples, since not only those who live in Illyria belong to the Slavic genus, Istria and the Carpathians, but many more great and strong peoples: Bulgars Rashtsy, Raschians, Serbs, Bosnians, Croats, Pyatigorsk, Rus, Podolyans, Lyakhs, Muscovites, Cherkassians and those who live far from the Venedi Bay even to the Albia River (Elba) , the remains of which are still Germansthey are called Slavs and Vindians or Windows, and, of course, Luzans, Cassubians, Moravians, Lithuanians, Schlents and Bohemians. Therefore, the Slavic language is spread from the Caspian Sea to Saxony itself and to the Adriatic Sea and to the German ...
          ... At the time of Caesar Augustus, they lived interspersed with the Thracians, and then captured almost all of Europe and a significant part of Asia and Africa with weapons, because, if you carefully consider this Slavic tribe, there is no other people braver than it in the past. They easily survived the cold, heat and other military hardships. Always faced fearless, faced with a thousand dangers, they were never obedient to the Roman state in everything. Moreover, when the Slavs during the reign of Emperor Maximilian entered Illyria, Pannonia and Mysia, they devastated everything and so bravely attacked the Roman troops that the Roman state was constantly forced to protect itself from the Sarmatian army, considering it a great feat to disgust their ferocity from themselves. "


          As you can see, even the Roman Empire had to reckon with the military strength of the Slavs, and these events are fully confirmed by the oral ancient Russian epic. However, a powerful army cannot be created without the presence of cities and crafts (metallurgy) for the production of weapons and armor. This means that our ancestors possessed statehood long before the call of Rurik, the grandson of the Novgorod prince Gostomysl from Western Russia, whom the falsifiers made "normal", even not giving a damn about the clear indication in the PVL regarding various types of "Varangians" (mercenary soldiers). The information described by M. Orbini one and a half to two hundred years before the appearance in Russia of German historians hired by the Romanovs to write a new History of Russia (which meant the history of the Romanovs) strongly contradicts the apologists of the frankly invented “Norman theory”.
        3. RF man
          RF man 27 November 2019 14: 55
          +2
          Apparently you read and distort Klyosov's words carelessly - he did NOT "formulate" that way.
          Klyosov did NOT call the Aryans "THE INDIGENOUS people of OUR civilization" - according to his calculations, the Aryans came to the Russian Plain "4-5 thousand years ago. And his% R1a is different - depending on the region, 50-70% of the male population of Russia, Ukraine and Belorussia.
          And he classifies 4 (main) gallogroups as "Russian people".
          Klyosov Aryans with Russians DOES NOT ASSOCIATE - calling the Russians SACRED Aryans and their culture
          Khltya, according to HIS calculations, the settlement of Europe and America began from the territory of Siberia and Altai, but HE DOES NOT call these peoples "Russian" and "Slavs" ALSO.
          MORE THAN, SUPPORTS that at that time there were still NO "Slavs", NO Russians
          IN ADDITION, Klyosov has repeatedly emphasized that a gallogroup DOES NOT define "nationality" and "race" and therefore a person with R1a CAN be a "Mongoloid"
      6. Svarog
        Svarog 22 November 2019 19: 43
        +2
        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
        I have a feeling that Mikhail Zadornov came to life, his kingdom to heaven. I respect him as a satirist, but here as a historian. Enough to carry nonsense about the superethnos of the Russians,

        About the Tatar-Mongol yoke, nobody wrote better than Gumilyov .. this is my subjective opinion ..
        What is the author right in that the appearance of the Mongols was different, they did not look absolutely like the Mongols whom we see .. it is reliably known that they were people of European appearance with blue eyes ..
        As for the yoke, in fact it did not exist, rather it was the "roof" of the fragmented Russian principalities .. and it disappeared exactly when the principalities began to unite ..
        And for some reason, the author refers to many historians except Gumilyov .. and Gumilyov is perhaps the only historian whose approach was scientific and justified in every word ..
    2. yuliatreb
      yuliatreb 22 November 2019 07: 14
      +5
      There is a small book, and it is called "Stories of the Primary Russian Chronicle" Novosibirsk Book Publishing House 1991. Which sets out the text of Hegumen Sylvester. Read it.
      1. Alexander Suvorov
        Alexander Suvorov 22 November 2019 07: 19
        -3
        yuliatreb (Vasilisa Yulievna)
        There is a small book, and it is called "Stories of the Primary Russian Chronicle" Novosibirsk Book Publishing House 1991. Which sets out the text of Hegumen Sylvester. Read it.
        You know, now there’s no time to search, could you briefly and concisely state what is written there?
    3. Avior
      Avior 22 November 2019 08: 07
      -1
      What are 500 years old?
      What are 1237-40 years?
      Don't you see
      . The authors of the new chronology Fomenko and Nosovsky answered this question

      All this fictional yoke is actually a description of the First World War, and the feud between Russians is the Civil War in Russia! laughing Accept True Faith in the New Chronology, and for you everything will fall into place! smile
    4. Civil
      Civil 22 November 2019 12: 16
      0
      What nonsense, I just read ...
    5. Doliva63
      Doliva63 22 November 2019 18: 03
      -2
      Quote: Aaron Zawi
      Amazing business. It turns out that the Arab and Chinese contemporaries of the Mongol conquests were "enemies of Russian civilization." This is probably why the Jin State, the Hormzshah State and the Baghdad Caliphate were subjected to monstrous destruction and complete destruction. I am not even talking about Georgia and the Alanian state practically wiped off the face of the earth. And the Russian chronicles, describing the first arrival of the Mongols in 1223, do not forget to emphasize their closeness to the Kipchaks. About the fact that during the conquest of the Russian principalities in 1237-40, such a blow was dealt to the East Slavic civilization that it was necessary to leave it for almost 500 years with blood and then it is also not worth remembering. Why dwell on such trifles?

      What "Russian chronicles" are you talking about? There are no such, there are only remakes, on which it is impossible to build a story, as well as to refer to them.
    6. Bar2
      Bar2 22 November 2019 22: 29
      +1
      -Orda is a breed, and
      -Breed is -Beard
      our ancestors were bearded and that is what distinguished ours from beardless Chinese and other Asians.
      Samsonov cannot spread his worldview in any way and constantly stumbles upon book cliches. Scythians and cleavages according to Herodotus are certainly our ancestors, but there were a huge number of other nations.
      -Venda-from the crown that built Venice and Vienna, they are
      -Vandals who were subjects of King Gigimont 3 in his title and in the Statute for 1588 vandals were present, although the Vandals had long since disappeared by the OI.
      -This is Longbards / Longbeards
      -This is the Varangians are Vary or Bars.
      -This is the Lutici who built Lutetia of Paris and Lutzenburg / Luxembourg
      -This is the Cathars, which are known to the Bogomil Slavs.
      -This is the Caledonians / Scots
      -This is the Gauls
      -This is the Mongols / Mongols
      -This is Alane, this is the Slavs according to Abevege "Russian superstitions"
      -This is Barbara from which comes the name Africa
      -This is the Darians
      -This is Russian
      -This is the Cossacks
      -This is Kalmyks are white
      and finally the original name of our people
      -This is Kolyan or Sokolyan from Kolo / Sun.
      OI scattered all these peoples at different times and in different linguistic groups, but the official history of lies is already clear to every Russian person.
      It is enough to see what is happening in Ukraine, on this Russian land and it becomes quite clear to yourself that since they are now destroying the Russians, it has always been so.
    7. maidan.izrailovich
      maidan.izrailovich 24 November 2019 02: 50
      +3
      An amazing thing ..... such a blow was inflicted on the East Slavic civilization that it had to go out of it for almost 500 years .... Why get hung up on such trifles?

      What Western historians have called the "yoke" was actually a civil war. By the way, the official historical version also has confirmation of this. The Ryazan prince from the first days of the "invasion" was on the opposite side.
      And about the "blow to the civilization of the Slavs." For any nation, getting out of the civil war is difficult. And its echoes stretch for centuries. Hence the three hundred years of confrontation. The Christian Slavs eventually defeated the Gentile Slavs and the peoples who joined them.
      The official historical version is a complete fiction. Unconfirmed in historical sources of that time.
      The simplest question is for supporters of official history. How could it happen that the Mongols, who once "conquered" China, now there are only three (!!!!) million of them (all the peoples kindred to the Mongols are only 10 million), and the Chinese are one and a half billion? Where have the countless hordes gone?
      1. Bar2
        Bar2 24 November 2019 11: 40
        +2
        Quote: maidan.izrailovich
        The simplest question is for supporters of official history. How could it happen that the Mongols, who once "conquered" China, now there are only three (!!!!) million of them (all the peoples kindred to the Mongols are only 10 million), and the Chinese are one and a half billion? Where have the countless hordes gone?


        Well, as you see, official historians don’t want to answer you, I’ll try.
        According to the official history of the OI, the Mongol Tatars built the most powerful state in the 13th century and seized half the world. For this, they were able to unite disparate tribes, create a managing superstructure for collecting taxes like? mm, (there was no money and there was no written language either, as they thought it was not clear, historians don’t talk about it, they say that they joined foreign writing), well, suppose in the form of cattle, rams and horses, then they quickly mastered the production of iron and made a THOUSAND TONS of iron they forged weapons and went to China. In China they captured local weapons specialists and ship craftsmen, set up the ships and went to Japan. They captured Japan.
        Then Genghis Khan went to Khorezm and captured it and so on.
        Then, when half the world was captured. This Mongol state - the Golden Horde built the cities of Karakoram first (they can’t find it), then Sarai (now it’s a bunch of broken bricks on which Sarai is not written). Mongolotatar -DEGADRATED to the picture that we saw in Mongolia itself at the beginning of the 20th century i.e. to the primitive communal system. Here's a story from the OI.

        Now another story.
        Mongols are
        Mon_Galy.
        Those. these are the people of Galov who lived everywhere .as in Europe
        Port_Gala
        Galicia
        Galicia
        Gale
        -Gaul
        -Latgale
        -Galich
        Galilee
        the Caspian Sea was called the Galensky Sea, in Russian, i.e., the Gali Sea and so on.
        and the most important thing
        -Mongols are Mongols, as historians Lyzlov, the cartographer of Remiz wrote, and so wrote numerous cartographers of the Middle Ages.
        That is, there were no Mongol-Mongoloids, but there were Mongols of the white race.
        But then it is no longer clear. From the age of 16-17 there was some kind of war between the conditionally Holy Roman Empire of the Germans and Great Tartary, as a result of which a new, official history arose.
        Choose which story you like best.
        1. Sunstorm
          Sunstorm 25 November 2019 17: 06
          -4
          Quote: Bar2
          Well, as you see, official historians don’t want to answer you, I’ll try.
          According to the official history of the OI, the Mongol Tatars built the most powerful state in the 13th century and seized half the world. For this, they were able to unite disparate tribes, create a managing superstructure for collecting taxes like? mm, (there was no money and there was no written language either, as they thought it was not clear, historians don’t talk about it, they say that they joined foreign writing), well, suppose in the form of cattle, rams and horses, then they quickly mastered the production of iron and made a THOUSAND TONS of iron they forged weapons and went to China. In China they captured local weapons specialists and ship craftsmen, set up the ships and went to Japan. They captured Japan.

          What the hell did you write? From which official historian did you find the capture of Japan by the Mongols? "Kamikaze" to help you.
          Quote: Bar2
          and made a THOUSAND TONS of iron, forged weapons and went to China.

          What nonsense did you write? How many tons of iron do you need for arrowheads? Why did you suddenly decide that they are all Iron (and not bone for example?)? Have you forgotten that the main weapon is a bow and arrow? Or have you dressed the Mongols in lamellar armor?
          Quote: Bar2
          and made a THOUSAND TONS of iron they forged weapons and went to China. In China they captured local weapons specialists and ship craftsmen, set up the ships and went to Japan. They captured Japan.

          Well, for historians you don’t like so much ... the capture of China was not over by the time the campaign to the west began. Tell me, did you read official historians? Well, besides Marx and Engels? It feels like not.
          1. RF man
            RF man 27 November 2019 16: 16
            +2
            The man "STEALED" on the theme "The unrepeatability of the feats of the great Mongols"
            ALL "arguments" of historians are reduced to advice - "READ THERE".
            When historians in ANSWER say - "SO SHOW me THIS or PROVE THIS", historians AGAIN as an ARGUMENT cite "WRITTEN sources" OR "translate arrows" to archaeologists - "let them FIND and PROVE, and WE KNOW that.
            God bless him - with "thousands of tons" of metal, but it is "NOT so easy" in STEPPE even to "cut" arrows for the 10-30 thousandth army. And these stocks SHOULD be constantly replenished - both time and material are needed.
            Moving along the "river highways" IN WINTER is also "NOT so easy" - on MANY rivers of snow to the waist
            SUCH THINGS in "material and technical supply" are "puzzling" for MANY. Almost ANYONE who has "encountered" REAL production or supply
            1. Sunstorm
              Sunstorm 27 November 2019 17: 57
              -1
              Quote: RF Man
              God bless him - with "thousands of tons" of metal, but it is "NOT so easy" in STEPPE even to "cut" arrows for the 10-30 thousandth army.

              Yevpatiy you are Kolovrat, what the hell? Did you basically see those arrows? Those armor? Are you aware that they have been used REPEATEDLY? (I'm talking about arrows). You are not confused by the fact that long before the Mongols, the Huns and Scythians fought like horse archers? Do you basically know that the Archaeologist is a kind of Historian? WHY IN THE HUNDRED HUNDRED WAR the British could shoot clouds of arrows .... but the Mongols are not? Where is your mother, I'm talking about Logic? What do you think that you cannot carry a stock of arrows on horses? Or a small anvil and hammer to fix the tips?
              Quote: RF Man
              Almost ANYONE who has "encountered" REAL production or supply

              In general, I do not believe that you have encountered REAL security. As well as I do not believe that you were at least once in a museum and saw with your hands and eyes samples of those weapons. It is understandable why, if you can theorize.
              1. RF man
                RF man 27 November 2019 18: 20
                +3
                Well, EXPLAIN, since in YOUR opinion, "I had nothing to do with" REAL support ", how many arrows are needed for a 2-3 hour battle?
                Any SPECIFIC figure "with a SCIENTIFICALLY grounded estimate"
                You can collect AFTER the battle, at least your own, even strangers.

                In the same "hundred-year war", the British did not conduct combat operations with "expeditionary corps" a thousand or two kilometers from the "main bases", and the "sources of supply" were more obvious, and "corps" of 30-40 thousand people were not "scattered" in "different directions" and MATERIAL
                Against the background of the "Mongol conquests" the 100-year war is MERKNET, although there is more MATERIAL evidence than for 200-240 years of the same "yoke"

                At the same time, since YOU are an expert on "models of those weapons" - WHAT IS their TOTAL number in the funds? Plus or minus a thousand pieces
                1. Sunstorm
                  Sunstorm 27 November 2019 18: 32
                  -2
                  Quote: RF Man
                  Well, EXPLAIN, since in YOUR opinion, "I had nothing to do with" REAL support ", how many arrows are needed for a 2-3 hour battle?

                  What oak tree do you think archery lasts 2-3 hours?)
                  Quote: RF Man
                  In the same "hundred-year war", the British did NOT fight "expeditionary corps" a thousand or two kilometers from the "main bases", and "sources of supply
                  Hmmmm, what do you think were the Units in France?))) Cut off from England by the sea?) The concept of "main bases" had not even appeared at that time, as well as "shops") You basically have no idea how the database was conducted at that time yes ?)
                  Quote: RF Man
                  Against the background of the "Mongol conquests" the 100-year war is MERKNET, although there is more MATERIAL evidence than for 200-240 years of the same "yoke"

                  A very bold statement) what is it based on?) You don’t even know how many archaeological finds there are from the first and second?)))
                  Quote: RF Man
                  At the same time, since YOU are an expert on "models of those weapons" - WHAT IS their TOTAL number in the funds? Plus or minus a thousand pieces
                  In the collections of which museum of particular name?) Museums?) Which particular samples interest you, your question is too vague)
                  1. RF man
                    RF man 27 November 2019 19: 03
                    +3
                    Quote: Sunstorm
                    What oak tree do you think archery lasts 2-3 hours?)

                    WHERE is it written to me about the "battle of archers"? Take ANY "normal battle" emohi "Mongol yoke" and scientifically JUSTIFY the consumption of arrows. Well, let's say 20-30 pieces for the "arrow" "for that".
                    Quote: Sunstorm
                    Hmmmm and what do you think were the troops in France?)))

                    It meant that, for an EXAMPLE, IN COMPARISON with the campaign from Harezm to the same Kalki, from England to France, "much closer."
                    Quote: Sunstorm
                    You don’t even know how many archaeological finds there are in the first and in the second?)))

                    I don’t know, SO I asked. It was NOT necessary for me to collect such data. You, according to YOUR statement, are the SPECIALIST in question. So ANSWER and "ALL".
                    It meant "everything a little bit" - swords, sabers, spearheads, "protective equipment" of BOTH sides, which can be RELIABLY attributed to the "Mongol yoke".
                    MAY be mistaken by 10-30%.

                    Why should I study “museum funds?” I have a different specialization and a profession NOT related to history.
                    "YOU and the cards in the rki" - "wash with FACTS and TRUE data".

                    Quote: Sunstorm
                    You basically can not imagine how the database was maintained at that time, right?)

                    Why - "I have a general idea." My formulations are INTENTIONALLY put in "quotes". Just used the "more familiar"
                    1. Sunstorm
                      Sunstorm 27 November 2019 19: 34
                      0
                      Quote: RF Man
                      WHERE is it written to me about the "battle of archers"? Take ANY "normal battle" emohi "Mongol yoke" and scientifically JUSTIFY the consumption of arrows. Well, let's say 20-30 pieces for the "arrow" "for that".

                      Well, let's. 1) There is a foot and horse shooter, each with their own characteristics and their own tactics. The rate of fire is important to the foot, for example, a well-trained yeoman fires 5-6 arrows per minute (I do not believe in 10 arrows per minute ... although if for the elite then why not) arrows from a long bow. At a distance of 100+ meters. Therefore, a pedestrian can fire 2+ arrows in 3-1000 hours. Tell me my dear, will there be volunteers to stand for 2-3 hours under fire? I suspect not ... even the most "gifted" will run as fast as possible to the shooter. Hence the desire for the rate of fire on foot. Go ahead Did you, in principle, hold the bow in your hands?) Do you understand the mechanics?) I'm even curious to know what will happen to the muscles if you perform at least a thousand ... arrow pulls, you don't have to remember about the fingertip after about half an hour. ..Based on the chronicles \ chronicles \ physiology and logic - the ammunition of a foot archer is 2-3 quivers (60-70 arrows). Plus, there are arrow carriers that pull arrows from the convoy ... But we are curious about the horse ones, aren't we?
                      2) A horse archer does not need a high rate of fire, since the horse allows you to quickly move quickly and go out to the flank or rear. Suppose an ordinary Nuker with 2 horses, in other words (oddwood). On one horse, he rides into battle on the second of his supplies. (It is quite a common practice for nomads starting with the Scythians). What's with him? Bow, no, not yew or wood or metal. Sabelka, shield, 2-3 quivers on a battle horse (from 20 to 30 in a quiver). How many quivers does a clockwork horse have? God knows let 5-6. How many arrows and how will he release in battle? We will follow the descriptions of the battle from the chronicles "to lure out by provoking, encircle and shoot in the back and flank, seeing a weakness in the enemy's ranks, chop him down with a saber .." preferably when he is already running (sorry for the free retelling) Can they bring arrows from the stock to a horse archer? Why not? Surena is a great example. A horse archer will release about 20-50 arrows into battle, and most of them will fly to the rear or flank, which greatly changes their striking effect.
                      1. RF man
                        RF man 27 November 2019 20: 06
                        +2
                        Well, THIS is the "clanchil" - IMMEDIATELY "nice to read".
                        THANKS FOR ANSWERING THE QUESTION.
                        Quote: Sunstorm
                        trained yeomen per minute starts 5-6 (I do not believe in 10 arrows per minute

                        God bless him - "NOT the essence". There were also 12 arrows per minute.
                        Quote: Sunstorm
                        I’m even curious to find out what will happen to the muscles if you perform at least a thousand ... arrow pulls, you can’t remember about the fingertip in about half an hour

                        Also "omit" - because the "physical capabilities of the opponents" are NOT known. Although apparently "there are unique" - the Italian showed that he even kills an elephant from a bow, so EXCEPT him, NOBODY could pull the string from the ALL "escort group".

                        Now a little busy and later I will state my non-core "doubts" on "this issue."
                        I hope you will have the opportunity to answer.
                      2. RF man
                        RF man 28 November 2019 08: 08
                        +2
                        "As a preface."
                        You wrote about the Disbelief in 10 arrows per minute (mainly based on the rate of fire per hour), but - WHERE YOU TAKE THIS figure, and options 2 - OR it is from written sources "OR" calculated "FROM" modern researchers ".
                        THIS I mean that YOURSELF then leave the OPPORTUNITY and "doubts", on the basis of only a PERSONAL opinion.

                        You "remember" the 100-year-old war and "scoff" at MY "profanity in the matter", but in my amateur opinion, BETWEEN the "Mongol invasion" and the 100-year war, "A significant difference".
                        In the case of the British / French it is POSSIBLE to "trace the" DEVELOPMENT "of military affairs" BEFORE the war - for the CENTURY.
                        HOW and WHAT has evolved in weapons, defense and tactics. KNOWN and the material and economic basis of "THEIR" armed forces "WERE and" professional military ", which for centuries" epolutized "
                        With the Russians - "it is already worse", Although for HUNDREDS of years they were "fighting", but the EXACT image of the "representatives of the military arms" of the Russians during the 6-15 centuries is "LESS known".
                        With the "Mongol hordes" - generally bad, since BEFORE the "era of Genghis Khan", about THEM, as "great warriors", NO ONE "is aware of".
                        IT IS POSSIBLE, as an anology, to "remember" the Vikings, who ALSO "fell out of nowhere", but COMPARED with the "Mongol hordes", VIKINGS are "street hooligans", since THEIR conquests and NUMBER are much less.
                        I was NOT interested, but I SUPPOSE that "in their BEST years", the Vikings "barely scraped" 3-4 "Mongolian tumens", and for the "Mongol hordes", judging by the descriptions, "it is a trifle to fight" on 2-3 "fronts" (and - quite SUCCESSFULLY).

                        Now about the "Small arms"
                        First, "the well-known axioms"
                        1 The bow WAS an effective enough weapon - OTHERWISE WAS NOT "Lasted in service" for HUNDREDS of years.
                        2 WE KNEW ABOUT "small arms fire" and prepared for it - developing protective weapons.
                        2 PUNCHING POWER OF "SMALL ARMS" DEPENDS heavily on "a number of factors" - from the firing range and bow design, to the material, weight and type of arrowhead.
                        4 PROTECTIVE properties of armor strongly depend on the "type of construction" and the quality of the "material used".

                        THE ACTUAL "ammunition consumption" MAY "DIFFER" significantly "from the" practical rate of fire ", including in the LOWER side, and strongly DEPENDS on" a number of factors ", INCLUDING" battle tactics "of EACH side.
                        If "remember old Europe", then there "describes" the exit BEFORE the "battle formations" and the "shooting arrows" of the attacking side.
                        IS IT KNOWN RELIABLE "the place of" LUCHNIKOV "in the order of battle" among the Russians? THIS is "quite important", as it SHOULD affect THEIR "combat equipment", TIME / and "intensity" of THEIR "fire" on the "Mongol hordes"

                        I will continue later ...
                      3. RF man
                        RF man 28 November 2019 09: 09
                        +2
                        Now about the "parties to the conflict" in the "Mongol invasion".

                        The "Mognol hordes" as a "military formation", judging by the "descriptions" WERE "quite effective," they HAVE weapons (attacks and defense) and tactics "MEETING the requests of their time"

                        "In theory," the "Russian squads" SHOULD be "about the same". Again, "according to written sources," the Russians WERE "bold enough" to "go" to the "Polovtsy" or "somewhere else."
                        In the "Soviet school" this "Russian army" was described as consisting of:
                        - "a small princely squad"
                        - "militia", recruited from "barefoot" and "poorly armed" farmers and artisans.
                        MOST of the second in battle GIBLA "pouring blood on their native land."
                        Itself for the FIRST time "collided" with "Doubts" in SUCH "hollowness" of Russians in the 80s of the 20th century - I do not remember WHO, in those years I "posted" articles on "the topic of the Battle of Kulikovo". Maybe "scientists-historians", maybe - "amateurs".

                        Let's take the "ABSTRACT battle" of the Russians and 1-2 "Mongolian tumens".
                        OPTIONS "battle tactics", as they say, "NOT a lot".

                        1 The cavalry of the Mongols "firing on the move" CLOSES with the Russians and enters into "close combat".
                        HEZ about THEIR exact speed and from what distance they "opened fire".
                        "Just take a MINUTE of firing." With 6 "shots", 10 thousand arrows "run over" for 60 thousand.
                        LET "unaimed", LET 20% of arrows "lost", but 48 thousand arrows "on the crowd" of Russians.
                        It WOULD be "not easy" and "suicide" to bring SUCH "army" out into the open field "and it IS SANEERABLE for defense to be in SOME" fortifications "

                        2 The Mongol cavalry "circles" around the Russians "an hour or two or three" and "shoots arrows".
                        Against the "bare-bellied" - THIS is a BETTER tactic, and it IS POSSIBLE to "knock out" a BIG part of the enemy personnel "WITHOUT" close combat "and" MINIMIZE YOUR losses,
                        If even "wounds are NOT fatal", then THEIR "plurality" and blood loss "by the evening will do their job"

                        However, "according to written sources" IT WAS COME TO "close combat".
                        REASONS again "LITTLE":
                        1 "Tired of spinning" and "itching hands."
                        2 Out of "ammunition"
                        3 The "rank-and-file" of the Russians were NOT "holopuzy" and HAD defensive weapons, which ALLOWED most of the "personnel" to REMAIN "combat-ready" UNDER the "hail of arrows".

                        "In world history" both "flank attacks" and "attack from the rear" have repeatedly LEADED to DEFEAT, but IF the Russians "were NOT idiots", then "HAVING the practice of fighting" in the "open field" SHOULD be " then such "at least" guess ", and PREVENT" some countermeasures ".

                        Nevertheless, the Russians were MUCH DEFEATED by the "Mongol hordes".
                        WHY, "kick me", but "NOT installed VERIFY".
                        Most likely "there were a number of factors"
                      4. Sunstorm
                        Sunstorm 28 November 2019 15: 20
                        0
                        Quote: RF Man
                        The "rank and file" of the Russians were NOT "holopuzy" and HAD defensive weapons, which ALLOWED most of the "personnel" to REMAIN "combat-ready" UNDER the "hail of arrows".

                        Shield
                      5. Sunstorm
                        Sunstorm 28 November 2019 15: 23
                        0
                        Quote: RF Man
                        "In world history" both "flank attacks" and "attack from the rear" have repeatedly LEADED to DEFEAT, but IF the Russians "were NOT idiots", then "HAVING the practice of fighting" in the "open field" SHOULD be " then such "at least" guess ", and PREVENT" some countermeasures ".

                        It's not about the stupidity of the Russian, and not the genius of the Mongols. And in feudal civil strife, which at a certain level of feudalism arise and begin to destroy state formations. The Russians, in fact, have never gathered a single army against the monologues. each harrowed "his fatherland" The result is predictable. The Mongols did not have strife ... at that time they would begin much later because they did not have feudalism like that ...
                      6. RF man
                        RF man 28 November 2019 13: 34
                        +2
                        "Guessing" WHY the Russians LOST in EVERY particular case is "thankless business."
                        "MAYBE" they were "poorly informed about the enemy" and, "advancing" against 10 thousand, "ran into" 30, and "this is a completely different story."
                        "MAY be" FORCED "to have taken the battle" in a "bad place", "MAY" there were mistakes in tactics, "MAY" were "attacked on the march, without having time to turn into battle formations."
                        "MAY" be "the rank and file" was NOT prepared for DIFFERENT "types of combat" and the "flanking maneuver" or "extraordinary attack" HAVE "fatal consequences".
                        COULD be "a confluence of a number of factors."

                        "Why guess something," if "even" the STRUCTURE of Russian "armed formations" is NOT known D: REALLY?
                        WHAT was the share of the "feudal squads" - 5-10-50% ?? "There were" estimates of "princely squads" of 100-300-500 people. It is NOT clear - cavalry or "infantry was also".
                        In such a "situation" even 10-20 princes "would have accumulated" FROM 1000 TO 10 "military personnel", and according to "written sources" MORE "described" - they are VISIBLE, some kind of "mobilization of the population.
                        THIS part of the Russians has "the most questions", since THEY, apparently, made up 50-90% of the "Russian army".
                        WHO were THESE people? Was THERE ANY "military training" in THEM? WHAT was THEIR "weaponry" of both attack and defense? WHERE was "everything kept" - "at home" or was it given out from "knazh slaves"?
                        HOW "in general" with "combat readiness" in "ancient Russian society"? DEVELOPED OR "popular amusements" in "military-applied types", for example, archery? Did the "old Russian boys" have a "war game", when from the age of 5 they used sticks? "Was the worldview as a whole" peaceful "and" militarized "?

                        "Written sources" of the 6-15th centuries, NOT that SMALL, but "STRANGE informative" - ​​they "vividly describe" DIALOGUES, list "a bunch of high-ranking participants", and on the MOST "clash" only "general phrases" and "final results", It is unclear from WHOSE words were recorded YEARS later, or even "a century or two".
                        Even the PLACE of the battle with "accuracy back and forth 10-20 versts."

                        STRANGE that AMATEURS like me have "doubts" ??
                        But WHAT is there "strange" IF the history of the 20th century "there are LOTS of questions" ?? IF for the same World War II THERE ARE "discrepancy" and sometimes and INTENTIONAL "distortion of the facts" ??
                        WHY is it "strange" that "uneducated people" DOUBT 100% of the TRUTH of "written sources" 500-800-1000 years old ?? Whether "logs" or "Arab" - any ..
                        In my life alone, according to Kulikovsky alone, the "estimates of the number of parties" WERE from 1 "Tatars" to 000 Russians, then 000 thousand against 300, then "met" 000 thousand against 300, and then "stumbled" on 100 thousand to 100 ..

                        YES, "I judge from OWN bell tower" and according to a "DIFFERENT profile", but if I come to the customer or the bank with SUCH "justification" for the project AS the historians of the "Mongol invasion" have, THEM "will seem LITTLE" and "WILL NOT deal" ...

                        I will write separately on "artifacts".
                      7. Sunstorm
                        Sunstorm 28 November 2019 15: 33
                        0
                        Quote: RF Man
                        "Guessing" WHY the Russians LOST in EVERY particular case is "thankless business."

                        And you do not guess. No need. According to the squad .... after all, we still argue where Rurik is from, if he is Scandinavian ... then obviously the squad is close to Varangian ... but even if he is not Scandinavian, the squads are still more like Scandinavian ... since the main the road is a river, and transport is a boat. The village of Rus is a country of forests.
                        The point is that written sources are written by people ... for people by order of people. Just like the current media, the question "who benefits" should always arise when analyzing ancient texts.
                        And about 300 thousand Hittites against 100 thousand Egyptians under Kadesh did not stumble?)
                        Incidentally, the Hittite kingdom was one of the first to be a form of military unification of different peoples into one. And then there was the Persian power and again hundreds of thousands there against 45 thousand Macedonians ... You should not think that there were no analogues to the Golden Horde and Igu in world history. After all, we won’t talk about Sasha of Macedon?) About his campaign from Macedonia to the Indus?)
                        You should not think that the British in the 100-year war acted differently than the Mongols ... they, too, were in full self-sufficiency. (I don’t remember writing or not ... not everything is skipped)
                      8. lucul
                        lucul 1 December 2019 13: 57
                        0
                        How many quivers on a clockwork horse? Heck knows let him 5-6.

                        Aha-ahah .... They tell you where the archer will take so many arrows (5-6 quivers) in the bare steppe, where more than 1 km to the nearest forests)))) Not every branch will go to the arrow, and to make a quiver of arrows It takes some time. You yourself try to make a quiver of arrows with a copper or stone knife - how much effort and money it will take. And these are just arrows, I generally keep quiet about saber swords - to arm 000 troops with swords / sabers at that level of metallurgy development is generally a fantastic task. It was necessary to have a metallurgical center similar to the Ruhr basin, where NEAR and iron ore and coal, because even having iron ore available - on dungs ​​the desired melting point of iron cannot be reached ....
                        This is just so, offhand, the first thing that occurred to me - and if you start digging thoroughly into history ......
                    2. Sunstorm
                      Sunstorm 27 November 2019 19: 44
                      0
                      Quote: RF Man
                      I do not know, therefore, and asked. I did NOT have to collect such data.

                      It is not possible to answer your question in one or two sentences, even if we only touch on the arrowheads. In a special article and complex work devoted to manual throwing devices of the early and advanced Middle Ages, published in 1, A.F. Medvedev analyzed (more than 2 thousand arrowheads!), He interprets these data, presents them in a generalized form, as a rifle arsenal of nomads of the southern Russian steppes. "
                      1. RF man
                        RF man 27 November 2019 20: 10
                        +2
                        Quote: Sunstorm
                        The answer to your question cannot be given in 1-2 sentences

                        Well, "hoped" for something like "sabers - about 15 thousand pieces", chain mail - about 7 thousand pieces, mirror - about 3 thousand pieces ". And so on and so on. As they say:" ORDER of numbers. "
                        On arrowheads - "quite satisfied"
                      2. RF man
                        RF man 27 November 2019 21: 50
                        +2
                        Can I "expound" in "pieces"?
                        It is also difficult to "briefly formulate" the ESSENCE of "doubts" (taking into account the POSSIBILITY of one's own "knowledge" in the "subtleties" of THAT period of history).

                        First, about the losers - i.e. "ancient Russia".
                        By the time of the "Mongol invasion" Russian principalities had existed for several centuries "often" HAVING "clashes" with DIFFERENT opponents, including "nomads").
                        They fought with "varying success", but HAVE "some" EXPERIENCE of "combat operations".
                        IF the Russians "weren't completely idiots," then there SHOULD have some sort of "combat training", "mobilization" and "weapons production" system.
                        "LOGIC", all "this" SHOULD be "somehow" consistent with the "battle tactics" and "weapons system" of HIS time.
                        And part of the episodes of "written sources" can be "interpreted" SO that "towards the Mongols" they walked WITHOUT "thoughts" that "WILL BE broken into trash"

                        Based on "global experience", VICTORY is (mainly) achieved by Excellence
                        - NUMEROUS
                        - in the "weapons system" (including "firepower")
                        - in "battle tactics"
                        - in "combat training of personnel".
                        "Moral-strong-willed", "the factor of surprise", etc. "We will not touch"
                        "WHAT COULD surprise the" Russians "the Mongolian horde in COMPARED with the opposition to the" Polovtsy "," Scythians "or" Byzantines "??
                        I COULD be wrong, BUT "like nothing."
                        If we talk about NUMERICAL, then according to the same "written sources" on the Kulikovo field it did NOT help, although (like?) The "tactics" of the "opponents" did NOT change
                        "Although it is clear" that "one thing" 1 to 2-3, and another 1 to 10-20
                        But "in theory" the Russians SHOULD have "suitable tactics" for DIFFERENT situations, but nevertheless - THEY were defeated, and sometimes "in the hills" (judging by the "chronicles").

                        Then I will write WHY "found fault" with the number of arrows. They are more of a "minor point"
                    3. Sunstorm
                      Sunstorm 27 November 2019 19: 46
                      0
                      Quote: RF Man
                      Why - "I have a general idea."

                      Share be so kind.
                      Quote: RF Man
                      how many arrows are necessary for a 2-3 hour battle
                      Although yes you already share)
                    4. Sunstorm
                      Sunstorm 27 November 2019 19: 49
                      0
                      Quote: RF Man
                      It meant that, for an EXAMPLE, IN COMPARISON with the campaign from Harezm to the same Kalki, from England to France, "much closer."

                      Yeah, of course ... of course closer, especially given the level of navigation at that time) You probably imagine that "ships loaded with ale and arrows sailed early in the morning from London to Calais?" Just clarifying)
  2. Pessimist22
    Pessimist22 22 November 2019 05: 48
    +14
    "Siberian - Rus - Mongols" You hurt my ears. smile
    1. svp67
      svp67 22 November 2019 06: 31
      +6
      Quote: Aron Zaavi
      An amazing thing.

      Quote: Pessimist22
      "Siberian - Rus - Mongols" You hurt my ears.

      I already thought that we had been ill with this disease, but it is an infectious muck ... And dangerous, thanks to her, we now have the Ukraine that is, with its "Black Sea diggers", "ancient Persian wars" and " a bunch of teachers "gone into the world to teach the last civilization.
      1. Alexander Suvorov
        Alexander Suvorov 22 November 2019 07: 10
        0
        svp67 (Sergey)
        I already thought that we had been ill with this disease, but contagious muck ...
        This infection is spreading more and more and notice not without the help of VO. Here you have a question as a moderator, but can you sort out such articles? Well, the truth is, the brain explodes when reading this:
        Rus war with Rus
        Therefore, about the "Mongols from Mongolia" must be forgotten. There were none. But there were wars, storms of the city and fortresses, tithe was. Who fought? The authors of the new chronology Fomenko and Nosovsky answered this question non-traditionally: they believe that these were internal wars between the Russians and the containers of Russia, on the one hand, and the Russians, Cossacks and containers of the Horde, on the other.
        spare our brain.
        After reading this, I even find it difficult to softly name the nonsense that I saw here in the morning, I immediately wanted to run away for half a liter, and today, by the way, though Friday, it's still a working day.
        1. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak 22 November 2019 07: 55
          +3
          Alexander Suvorov "This infection is spreading more and more, and notice not without the help of VO."
          Such ideological diversion is normal. Tartararians consider A.V. Suvorov’s enemy of Russia.))) Our other commanders, too, since they served the Romanovs (those who rewrote all the archives and ruined everything.) The Fomenkovtsy movement itself is essentially a sect.))) At the same time, VO positions itself as a patriotic site. Yes, and Samsonov considers himself kind of like a patriot. It is strange how all this coexists in them?)))
          1. Alexander Suvorov
            Alexander Suvorov 22 November 2019 08: 34
            +2
            Nagaybak (Andrey)
            Yes, and Samsonov considers himself kind of like a patriot. It is strange how all this coexists in them?)))
            For me, this is also a great mystery.
            All this biliberde reminds me of a scene from the movie "Ivan Vasilyevich Changes His Profession".
            - Packs ... packs ... like cherubs ... Nina tell me something in Old Church Slavonic. My life.
            - What life is your dog stinky?
            Forgive your excellency I do not speak languages. And by the way, you misunderstood me.
            - But how do you understand, if you do not say anything ...

            So Samsonov wrote and wrote, but what did he write? Why did you write?
            1. vladcub
              vladcub 22 November 2019 11: 10
              -1
              Where are we wretched to understand Fomenko and Co., after all, they write for the elite.
              This is about the same as the "pearls" of the Bear Cub, you read and do not know: cry or laugh
          2. Flooding
            Flooding 22 November 2019 08: 42
            +4
            Quote: Nagaibak
            Yes, and Samsonov considers himself a kind of patriot

            Is patriotism a love of the motherland?
            Nowhere is it said what she should be wearing, red or white, sheepskin coat or sundress.
            And love is so different. As in the old days they used to say "beats means love".
            1. Alexander Suvorov
              Alexander Suvorov 22 November 2019 09: 02
              -3
              Navodlom (Vladimir Ilyich)
              Is patriotism a love of the motherland?
              Nowhere is it said what she should be wearing, red or white, sheepskin coat or sundress.
              And love is so different. As in the old days they used to say "beats means love".
              Well, you know, they also say this: make fool He prays to God, and he will break his forehead. Sometimes it’s hard to say who does more harm to your homeland, a stranger or his own, but not very smart.
              Tell me, what purpose does Samsonov pursue by rejecting classical history and engaging in open Fomenkovism, which NO scientist has recognized?
              Samsonov has not bad articles on the history of the Great Patriotic War, the Second World War, let him continue to do this. And then when he begins to write about the superethnos of the Rus-Aryans, Adolf is immediately remembered with his theory of racial inferiority, and instead of being proud of his story and the fact that you are Russian, you start slowly not so ashamed, no. You get ashamed of the fact that Samsonov and other followers of Fomenko seem to be Russian and I am ashamed of it.
              1. Flooding
                Flooding 22 November 2019 09: 22
                +3
                Quote: Alexander Suvorov
                Sometimes it’s hard to say who does more harm to your homeland, a stranger or his own, but not very smart.

                Without hesitation, I choose the second.
                Quote: Alexander Suvorov
                Tell me, what purpose does Samsonov pursue by rejecting classical history and engaging in open Fomenkovism, which NO scientist has recognized?

                A person either does not give an account of the consequences and does it "out of love for art" or vice versa.
              2. Lannan Shi
                Lannan Shi 22 November 2019 11: 39
                +12
                Quote: Alexander Suvorov
                Tell me what purpose Samsonov pursues, rejecting the classic story.

                What is a classic story? Discover - History of China; Textbook / Edited by A.V. Meliksetova. 2nd ed., Rev. and add. - M.: Publishing House of Moscow State University, Publishing House "Higher School", 2002. We quote.
                "Usually, each new dynasty, after its establishment on the throne, created a commission of professional historians whose task was to write the history of the previous dynasty. In total, there are traditionally 24 such stories. They were composed by highly qualified specialists who sought to fairly objectively expound the historical events of the previous dynasty and lead the reader to conclusions that were supposed to confirm the legitimacy of the ruling dynasty. Naturally, the proof of the legitimacy of the new dynasty sometimes required a new interpretation and events of the distant past.."
                That is, this crap, only officially 24 times corrected, in accordance with the new course of the party, is there a story? It's funny Yeah.
                1. Flooding
                  Flooding 22 November 2019 15: 59
                  +1
                  Correctly. Forget the story at all. Everyone lies.
                  1. Lannan Shi
                    Lannan Shi 22 November 2019 16: 27
                    +9
                    Quote: Flood
                    Correctly. Forget the story at all. Everyone lies.

                    What exactly do you dislike? Are you for the official story? You are quoted by a historian. So official that there is nowhere official. From a completely official textbook corresponding to official historical thought. The textbook quite officially states that the history of China, to which the Mongolophiles love to refer, has been officially interpreted 24 times in general, and 7 times since the 13th century in particular. What questions to me?
                    1. Trilobite Master
                      Trilobite Master 22 November 2019 17: 28
                      0
                      Quote: Lannan Shi
                      What questions to me?

                      And what kind of historians? They are just versed in what, how and why chroniclers wrote. They study, verify, verify, seek confirmation, refutation, draw conclusions. And non-historians draw conclusions without these unnecessary formalities, that’s the difference.
                      1. Tamparu
                        Tamparu 23 November 2019 15: 27
                        +4
                        What kind of historians? They are just versed in what, how and why chroniclers wrote. They study, verify, verify, seek confirmation, refutation, draw conclusions.

                        Perfectly! And what do they read and do they read? What sources are used for their work? How much can you trust these sources? Etc, Etc, Etc .....
                        In my subjective opinion, all or almost all historians of the 20th and 21st centuries who specialize in history, at least the Middle Ages, not to mention the more ancient centuries, are purely modern "Jesuits" who also "write "history. Someone for something, and someone just from the scarcity of their mind.
                        Something like that.
                        Sincerely, hi
                      2. Good_Anonymous
                        Good_Anonymous 23 November 2019 17: 57
                        +1
                        Quote: TampaRU
                        In my subjective opinion, all or almost all historians of the 20th and 21st centuries who specialize in history, at least the Middle Ages, not to mention the more ancient centuries, are purely modern "Jesuits" who also "write "history.


                        And they falsify the excavations.
                    2. Flooding
                      Flooding 22 November 2019 17: 30
                      0
                      Quote: Lannan Shi
                      What exactly do you dislike?

                      A superficial approach to a serious issue.
                      Quote: Lannan Shi
                      Are you for the official story?

                      I am for an objective story.
                      Quote: Lannan Shi
                      You are quoted by a historian. So official that there is nowhere official. From a completely official textbook corresponding to official historical thought. The textbook quite officially states that the history of China, to which the Mongolophiles love to refer, has been officially interpreted 24 times in general, and 7 times since the 13th century in particular. What questions to me?

                      1. I didn’t ask you any questions.
                      2. This is the opinion of a particular historian about very specific cases. Which you are pulling on a story in general.
                      3. This, from your words, is written in a textbook. That is, the facts have a place to be, they are known. And it would be extremely foolish to assume that modern historical science has not made a correction for them, even if it has been written about in textbooks.
                      4. You behave inconsistently. You urge you not to trust the official history, immediately referring to the official textbook.
                2. Minato2020
                  Minato2020 23 November 2019 19: 40
                  +3
                  Quote: Lannan Shi
                  Quote: Alexander Suvorov
                  Tell me what purpose Samsonov pursues, rejecting the classic story.

                  What is a classic story? ..
                  ... That is, this crap, only officially ruled 24 times, in accordance with the new course of the party, is there a story? It's funny Yeah.


                  The so-called "Secret Legend of the Mongols" first came to the Mongols in 1942 on the 20th anniversary of the founding of the Mongolian People's Republic. In the Kremlin, the delegation of the Mongolian People's Republic was given a translated text in Russian, which was made by the linguist Kozin from the Turkic original, which was later "lost". Initially, the original was written in Old Uigur script.

                  The so-called Laws of Genghis Khan.
                  Interestingly, where are the surviving texts of Yassa Genghis Khan in the original in order to evaluate the very language of writing, or was everything "lost"? )))
              3. Pilat2009
                Pilat2009 22 November 2019 16: 56
                +1
                "something millions of blacks with AK do not conquer the planet"
                Well, the Chinese and the Indians, too
              4. Kronos
                Kronos 23 November 2019 01: 12
                -2
                the history of the Great Patriotic War, the Second World War, he has the same conspiracy theological crap only about the Anglo-Saxons
              5. Nonna
                Nonna 24 November 2019 05: 37
                +2
                Suvorov. Come on, you won't tell others what to do and you won't be sent far and for a long time. And also "slowly be ashamed" that you are Russian in your kitchen, and don't pour your complexes here - you are not at the psychiatrist's appointment.
            2. UserGun
              UserGun 22 November 2019 14: 17
              +2
              Quote: Flood
              Is patriotism a love of the motherland?


              And you take an interest in yourself by direct translation of this word. Patriot = compatriot. And much will become clear. Including the fact that many simply forgot (or simply hide behind this word) about the literal meaning of this word, and Nazism in the Russian Federation is simply prohibited. Love for the motherland from such patriots and does not smell, but Nazism carries a mile away.
        2. Olgovich
          Olgovich 22 November 2019 09: 45
          +2
          Quote: Alexander Suvorov
          This infection

          it yes yes .
          Quote: Alexander Suvorov
          spreads more and more and notice not without the help of VO. Here you have a question as a moderator, but can you sort out such articles? Well the truth is, the brain explodes

          and here I don’t see anything terrible: VO editors publish articles in VARIOUS points of view and ratings of History events.

          And this in itself is wonderful. You can agree, you can, no, you can have an excellent opinion and express it.

          already (in the morning) 80 (!) comments, is this not an indicator of interest?
          Quote: Alexander Suvorov
          spare our brain.

          Quote: Alexander Suvorov
          After reading this, I’m even at a loss to name the nonsense that I saw here in the morning, I immediately wanted to run away for half a liter,

          Alexander "Suvorov", and you send your neighbor Napoleon or Alexander the Great for him. yes
          1. Good_Anonymous
            Good_Anonymous 23 November 2019 17: 59
            -2
            Quote: Olgovich
            VO editors publish articles in VARIOUS points of view


            The article above is not a point of view. This is fantasy.
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 24 November 2019 11: 18
              -2
              Quote: Good_Anonymous
              The article above is not a point of view. This is fantasy.

              Yes, and let ... request
        3. Krasnoyarsk
          Krasnoyarsk 22 November 2019 19: 59
          +2
          Quote: Alexander Suvorov
          to you, as a moderator, a question, but can you sort out such articles here? Well, the truth is, the brain explodes when reading this:

          Do you mean - "Wars of the Rus with the Rus"?
          And what's so surprising? The "uprisings" of Razin, Bolotnikov, Pugachev, GV, the current war in Donbass, is this a war of whom and with whom? Not Rus with Rus?
          Your Moss explodes not from WHAT you are reading, but from the fact that you do not know what to do with this information. You are at a loss, you are rushing around, but what will happen now? How to live?!!!! After all, they told me that the earth is flat !!!!
      2. Flooding
        Flooding 22 November 2019 07: 40
        +1
        Neophytes need a legend.
        They create it zealously and uncompromisingly.
      3. The comment was deleted.
  3. YOUR
    YOUR 22 November 2019 06: 11
    +24
    Who knows how it really was, but if you indirectly pumped it then there was no invasion. There are no traces of it. The Tatar-Mongols did not have their own production, but they were all perfectly armed. Their bows are something transcendental for shooting at a gallop, from which they were made, where in the mountainous desert Mongolia to take so much material. Trekking from one hemisphere to another. And now it’s not easy work, but in those days. How they crossed the river with convoys, but not able to swim. No where there is no mention of the exodus from their native places. The warriors were leaving. Oh well. And the wives of the children means remained, and who defended them. Yes, and husbands almost forever left, it was not possible to fly on vacation by plane in those days.
    The capture of Kiev. Historians paint so from the Mongol side it was 100-150 thousand. It means that only horses were at least 2, or even 3 times more, and even camels, donkeys were draft force and there was no canned food. They drove herds of cattle. A horse eats up to 40 kg of grass per month and drinks up to 60 - 100 liters of water. Specially interested. Those. all this cattle was supposed to gobble up not only all the grass around Kiev, but also the forests, and also drink the Dnieper. And to spoil everything in such a way that the descendants would have long recalled these places by fossils.
    And the main capital of the Golden Horde, with all our modern capabilities, has not yet been found. There are hundreds of versions and the Volga changed its course and covered everything with sand. But not found.
    1. Chersky
      Chersky 22 November 2019 06: 49
      +13
      This elementary logic for some reason does not want to go into the head of the majority. I do not think that the author of the article is right. This is just a beautiful version. But to believe with ease the invasion of some shepherds from the Mongolian steppes is also beyond reason.
      1. Uncle lee
        Uncle lee 22 November 2019 08: 06
        +17
        "and the Russian with his narrow soul is still none other than the slave beaten by the whips of the Tatars, as he was for hundreds of years "
        is from a neighboring branch! That's what the tribal historians write about Russia! So about the yoke, from the same ditch gleaned!
        In order to humiliate Russia, Russia was written by foreign "scientists" the history of Russia in an unsightly and distorted form. For which Mikhailo Lomonosov fought with them
        1. novel66
          novel66 22 November 2019 10: 37
          +5
          Volodya hi he did not fight! he just ... muttered them, say, using physical superiority!
          1. vladcub
            vladcub 22 November 2019 11: 24
            +5
            What's true is true: Michal Vasilyevich had a cutie. Somehow 2 sailors wanted to "check" Lomonosov's wallet, but he slapped them well and dragged them to the police
        2. Hantengri
          Hantengri 22 November 2019 10: 44
          -3
          Quote: Uncle Lee
          In order to humiliate Russia, Russia was written by foreign "scientists" the history of Russia in an unsightly and distorted form. For which Mikhailo Lomonosov fought with them

          So, in spite of their vile, denigrating lies, we will come up with our, good, bright, majestic and call it truth! It will turn out great! Yes?
    2. Alexander Suvorov
      Alexander Suvorov 22 November 2019 08: 14
      0
      YOUR (Vladimir) Historians paint so from the Mongol side it was 100-150 thousand. It means that only horses were at least 2, or even 3 times more, and still camels, donkeys are draft force and there was no canned food. They drove herds of cattle. A horse eats up to 40 kg of grass per month and drinks up to 60 - 100 liters of water.
      Sorry, but you write complete nonsense. Napoleon brought to Russia a little more than 600 thousand, with cavalry, artillery (which horses also pulled, and not one) and carts, which were also on horses and somehow reached Moscow. So why do you refuse the Tatar-Mongols this, despite the fact that there were 5-6 times less of them? Or was Napoleon not there either? Miller got up from the grave and rewrote the history of the invasion of the Great Army?
      Well, turn on the brain already and do not post the same crap about the lack of supplies and stuff!
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Lannan Shi
        Lannan Shi 22 November 2019 09: 17
        +11
        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
        Napoleon brought to Russia a little more than 600 thousand, with cavalry, artillery (which horses also pulled, and not one) and carts, which were also on horses and somehow reached Moscow.

        Actually, from starvation, Napoleon’s army died. From hunger, cold and disease. Combat losses - a miserable, against the background of the sanitary. And this despite the fact that he had no more horses than the fantasy Mongols, who had a pair of clockwork. And the feed base is many times wider. But the total size of the army in general does not play a role. If we talk about the supply. For 1 soldier on foot needs 1 kg of feed per day, and 1 Mongol and 3 horses - 61. And the hypothetical Mongol army, with a strength of 30.000, ate at the level of the entire army of Napoleon. And at 50.000 1,5 times more. Here are just peasant households, in one Moscow province, was at the level of the whole of Northern Russia of the XIII century. And they could not feed Napoleon. And lonely farmsteads, lost in the woods, easily fed a horde that eats 2 times more.
        1. Alexander Suvorov
          Alexander Suvorov 22 November 2019 09: 29
          +1
          Lannan Shi Today,
          Actually, from starvation, Napoleon’s army died. From hunger, cold and disease.
          Actually learn the story! Napoleon’s army began to starve in ravaged Moscow, and to die of hunger and cold, on the way back along the old Smolensk road, again ravaged, on which Kutuzov drove him.
          And the feed base is many times wider.
          What does this follow from? Proofs to the studio please.
          And the hypothetical Mongol army, with a strength of 30.000, ate at the level of the entire army of Napoleon. And at 50.000 1,5 times more.
          Where does this conclusion come from? Did the Mongols have three stomachs? By the way, the Mongolian horses are much less whimsical.
          To school and again to school!
          1. YOUR
            YOUR 22 November 2019 10: 25
            +5
            What are you attached to this Napoleon? What does it have to do with the Tatar-Mongol invasion?
            1. novel66
              novel66 22 November 2019 10: 39
              +8
              softly trying to convey to you that eating from pasture (and there is no other!) you can’t feed so many horses
              1. YOUR
                YOUR 22 November 2019 11: 26
                +4
                Actually, I wrote about this directly.
                1. novel66
                  novel66 22 November 2019 13: 55
                  +3
                  Remember, not blunted, confused! hi
          2. Lannan Shi
            Lannan Shi 22 November 2019 10: 42
            +16
            Quote: Alexander Suvorov
            What does this follow from? Proofs to the studio please.

            The old Smolensk road is two provinces. Moscow and Smolensk. In 1812, the population in the region was 2 million. The population of northern Russia, in the first third of the 13th century, was about 3. At the same time, Napoleon is in Moscow just at the perfect time, at the time of harvest. Plus forage is not so critical. The grass is green, the poorly poor horses on the pasture can survive. But by the time of the battle in the City, in the barns and on the hayloft, the mice were starving to death. In Torzhok district, even now, the population density is 1 family per square kilometer. And Torzhok’s army of steppes besieging Torzhok, in early March, when the local cattle eats up the last straw ... This is violent fantasy, about elves - from the recharging sun, and their unicorns, fed by amulets from amulets.
            Quote: Alexander Suvorov
            Where does this conclusion come from? Did the Mongols have three stomachs? By the way, the Mongolian horses are much less whimsical.

            The Mongolian horse can be arbitrarily unpretentious. However, she is not the Little Humpbacked Horse, working exclusively on the narrator’s imagination. And if the Mongolian horse is not seasoned with grass or hay, regularly, it first weakens, and then dies. Scientific fact.
      3. KERMET
        KERMET 22 November 2019 09: 21
        +9
        A staggering security operation was undertaken to move 26 battalions. Eight battalions demanded 600 light and medium carts. Each of the remaining 18 battalions needed 252 carts drawn by four horses, carrying 1,36 tons of cargo. The entire convoy consisted of more than 9300 wagons.

        To transport cavalry and artillery, 250 thousand horses were required, each of which needed nine kilograms of feed daily.

        Fatal mistake
        Even if Napoleon captured Moscow in two months with the forces of half his 400th army, he would still need more than 16 thousand tons of food, which is twice as much as what was in his wagon train.

        Satisfaction of the French emperor was exactly 24 days. Obviously, he was counting on a short and victorious campaign.
        1. KERMET
          KERMET 22 November 2019 09: 35
          +7
          It is enough to recall how, during the Seven Years' War (1756–1763) against Prussia, the Russian troops even took Berlin, but each time they were forced to withdraw to the winter apartments to the Russian border, losing everything they had conquered.
          1. tlauicol
            tlauicol 22 November 2019 09: 48
            -1
            the Mongols also left, ravaging the cities
          2. YOUR
            YOUR 22 November 2019 10: 27
            +5
            You can still recall the Crimean War of 1853-56. While food and feed for livestock 3/4 were brought to Sevastopol, the horsemen and horses themselves ate.
        2. Mihaylo Tishayshiy
          Mihaylo Tishayshiy 22 November 2019 16: 28
          +5
          Quote: KERMET
          Fatal mistake
          Even if Napoleon captured Moscow in two months with the forces of half his 400th army, he would still need more than 16 thousand tons of food, which is twice as much as what was in his wagon train.
          Satisfaction of the French emperor was exactly 24 days. Obviously, he was counting on a short and victorious campaign.

          It's just that Napoleon also read a lot of "historians" about Batu and the Mongol. So I didn't calculate it manenko.
          And the Mongolian horse, even unpretentious, in Russian fields, not to mention the forests, can not dig a hoof out of the snow with a beam of grass.
      4. dzvero
        dzvero 22 November 2019 09: 27
        +4
        The potential of Europe was behind Napoleon. Where was the nomad base? So YOUR (Vladimir's) doubts are well founded. Modern history does not give an unambiguous answer to the questions that arise (history is written by the winners), and all sorts of alternative "beliefs" are sprouting on this soil. True, the theory of the alliance of Chelyabisk with Tagil against Moscow and Kiev has not yet reached smile "but it goes to this" (c) not mine.
      5. YOUR
        YOUR 22 November 2019 09: 37
        +2
        Each warrior of the Tatar-Mongolian army had at least 2 horses and this is only combat. There were also carts where each warrior had at least one horse or a camel; they also drove herds of cattle with them. Didn’t you know dry at that time. They compared him to Napoleon, but he had so many horses and so many cattle? Yes, there was no tenth.
        Your example is not true
        1. Lannan Shi
          Lannan Shi 22 November 2019 11: 30
          +9
          Quote: YOUR
          they also drove herds of cattle with them.

          "In Mongolia, due to heavy snowfalls in the first decade of December, more than 50 thousand animals, mainly cattle, have died. As RIA Novosti reported on Tuesday, the Department of Civil Defense (UGO) of Mongolia, for example, in Bayankhongor aimak, the thickness of the snow cover reaches 40-50 cm, which is why the livestock cannot eat pasture. "
          You see the point. The basis of the Mongolian herds is sheep. For them, 20 cm of snow is the limit. Then they begin to starve and die. In the standard meter of snow for the Moscow Region, they will have to dig holes. In addition, the speed of moving flocks in winter is 500-1000 meters per day. And go camping, dragging the herds ... This is for the gifted.
          By the way. In the summer, sheep are also not very similar to a Formula 1 car. And in reality, the nomads were quite caught by boring infantry. Furthermore. to act against nomads with one cavalry well, it was not very recommended. It's funny, but true. Infantry + cavalry regiments are more mobile than two cavalry and "mobile" steppe dwellers. lol
          1. Zvonarev
            Zvonarev 22 November 2019 12: 48
            +4
            Plus, attackers do not have to drag their flocks with them; you can always borrow from the attacker. Were they after all?
          2. Bar2
            Bar2 23 November 2019 07: 18
            0
            Quote: Lannan Shi
            In Mongolia, more than 50 thousand animals, mainly cattle, died in the first decade of December due to heavy snowfalls.


            Severe frosts deprived Mongolia of 1,7 million livestock


            http://news.bibo.kz/376813-silnye-morozy-lishili-mongoliju-17-mln-golov-skota.html
            in Mongolia, cattle are constantly dying from snow and frost, and the scale of this phenomenon is enormous.
          3. Sergey Sadchikov
            Sergey Sadchikov 23 November 2019 13: 49
            +1
            That's right, but they tell us how Mongolian horses dig snow, and get grass under it, they just forget to voice that they probably dig with shovels, if so, then I have no doubt that the Mongols captured half the world, with such "skates" !!! !!!!!
        2. Pilat2009
          Pilat2009 23 November 2019 12: 05
          +2
          Quote: YOUR
          Didn't know whether dry at that time

          such as meat was not dried or dried, crackers were not made, fish was not salted ....
          1. YOUR
            YOUR 24 November 2019 04: 25
            +1
            Like because of the Urals they walked on foot, and not flew by plane. The Mongols do not eat fish, they consider it dirty meat.
          2. ikrut
            ikrut 28 November 2019 01: 59
            +4
            Buryats (Mongols) even today do not dry meat, do not make crackers, and on long taiga trips hunters take only flour, butter and tea. Meat is obtained by hunting. They don't eat fish. Livestock - mostly cows - are freely grazed from spring to autumn. Organized herds are rare. And those are small and around the summer. I myself have traveled hundreds of kilometers and swam through the scenes of the historical novel "The Cruel Age". I just can't imagine. so that in those places even today it was possible to organize something like at least a battalion of troops, and even make some conquests. The fact that the Mongolian Mongols have nothing to do with the conquests known to us from the official history is not difficult to understand even for a child who has visited the "historical" homeland of Temujin.
        3. Kunar
          Kunar 28 November 2019 09: 37
          -1
          The Mongols are pastoralists nomads)))) What is the difference where to roam? At least in Russia, even in the Middle Kingdom)))) For them, life in a campaign is a natural way of life
          1. YOUR
            YOUR 28 November 2019 09: 43
            +2
            Yeah, over 10000 thousand kilometers in a straight line, through the taiga, which they do not know, through rivers that they fear and have no experience of crossing, through swamps that they have not seen in their steppes. Doesn't add up.
            1. Kunar
              Kunar 28 November 2019 09: 56
              0
              You are probably new to geography.) In order to get from Mongolia to Russia, the Northern Sea Route is absolutely unnecessary)))) And they do not need to climb into the taiga. You will not believe it, but from Mongolia to the Volga (Itil) it’s bare-footed )))) Graze, I do not want
              1. YOUR
                YOUR 28 November 2019 13: 33
                +2
                You won’t believe it, but I know geography. Moreover, I even know how this steppe is marked on the maps. You, as a connoisseur, are naturally aware of what is written on the back of the cards, and it is designated as HUNGRY STEP. Neither water nor plain herbs. The soil is interestingly called dresva. Read take an interest.
      6. The comment was deleted.
    3. Xnumx vis
      Xnumx vis 22 November 2019 08: 51
      0
      Quote: YOUR
      Who knows how it really was, but if you indirectly pumped it then there was no invasion.

      And the fact that the civilization of Central Asian states collapsed, the culture of Ancient Russia collapsed, hundreds of cities and villages were destroyed, China, India fell, the Caucasus and Georgia, Persia were ravaged. Entire civilizations were swept away and destroyed ... Metalworking, construction cultures were destroyed, written sources ... It seems that there was a nuclear war ... Millions of people died, which for that time with a small population density was critical .. Abandoned land cultivation. One cattle breeding flourished. Nomad lifestyle ... Nomad m cultivated land and cities were not needed! ... you analyze! Connect your head to this business ...
      1. YOUR
        YOUR 22 November 2019 09: 38
        +3
        Very, very true advice, plug your head. And try to refute everything that I wrote. Not general phrases, but specifics.
        1. Lord_Raven
          Lord_Raven 22 November 2019 12: 03
          +5
          Want to be specific? Ok, what can you say about the excavations of the Zolotarevskoye settlement? Sanitary burials in Vladimir, Yaroslavl, Staraya Ryazan, Izyaslavl, Kozelsk, Moscow, Kiev? Or are archaeologists lying and the finds are forged?
          1. YOUR
            YOUR 22 November 2019 13: 14
            -1
            Those. Excavations on the battlefield. And what does it say that they were Tatar-Mongols?
            And a question on the topic of what you raised. The Kulikovo battle - excavations yielded just a scanty material. They started to bring up the base right there, because they all gathered and took it out, because they both drove to bury their dead home, and they carefully collected weapons, there were such times. And how the numbers differ. That Tatars were 800 thousand, then 60, then 150 thousand. The Genoese infantry was standing in the center, it was not standing. The fact that the battle was not discussed, but so powerful? And as described by Dmitry Donskoy. Everywhere he is presented as tall, slender, but bad luck, in the annals he is described as fatly fat, that a special horse was brought to him in order to withstand him, and two young men helped him to ride a horse.
            history is the most fantastic science, so they decided to consider everything from some hangover. In the first in Russia, the Yoke was talked about after the Karamazov brothers, after their many languid historical misunderstandings. Which they take from anywhere.
            1. Captain45
              Captain45 22 November 2019 14: 46
              +12
              Quote: YOUR
              In the first in Russia, the Yoke was talked about after the Karamazov brothers, after their many languid historical misunderstandings.

              I, of course, apologize, but .... multivolume historical, as you say, misunderstandings were written by N. Karamzin - "History of the Russian State", and "The Brothers Karamazov" did not write anything at all, tk. were the fruit of the literary fantasy of another author - F.M. Dostoevsky.
            2. Lord_Raven
              Lord_Raven 22 November 2019 14: 50
              +5
              Vladimir, do you still like to answer a question with a question? You were asked a question about the results of archaeological research, which indicate military operations during the Mongol-Tatar invasion of Russia. Now let's try to think. There are written sources, both Russian and foreign, talking about the invasion of the steppes on the Russian principalities. There are archaeological finds - destroyed settlements, weapons, mass graves of people who died a violent death, etc. Match the data and do not produce false entities.
              PS
              Quote: YOUR
              And as described by Dmitry Donskoy. Everywhere he is presented as tall, slender, but bad luck, in the annals he is described as fatly fat, that a special horse was brought to him in order to withstand him, and two young men helped him to ride a horse.

              Who represents? Where? In whose erotic fantasies? In the end, all over the world, servants regularly helped rulers and many other high-ranking people to carry out any actions, including putting them on horses. And in armor, this is not very easy.
              P.P.S
              Quote: YOUR
              In the first in Russia, the Yoke was talked about after the Karamazov brothers, after their many languid historical misunderstandings

              What kind of brothers? Karamazov? Are you seriously?
              1. YOUR
                YOUR 23 November 2019 03: 38
                -1
                Quote: Lord_Raven
                and you still more accustomed to answer a question with a question?

                Rather, it is for you.
                Quote: Lord_Raven
                which indicate military operations during the Mongol-Tatar invasion of Russia

                Which indicate that the battle took place, the Mongol-Tatar historians have come up with.
                But for some reason you have chosen separate phrases that you can laugh at. But why don’t you want to explain where the historical chronicles about the mass exodus of the tribes went, we will consider them Mongols from our places of residence. There are no records of their campaign across Asia and half of Europe, no regimental time division.
            3. Simargl
              Simargl 23 November 2019 02: 58
              +2
              Quote: YOUR
              That Tatars were 800 thousand, then 60, then 150 thousand
              Do not grind! Let's get millions!
              Not many people participated in the Battle of Kulikovo (by the standards of the Great Patriotic War) - up to 10 on both sides.
              Iron - yes, at first the soldiers gathered, and the peasants got the rest into the economy.
              Now is it different? There, people with metal detectors clean the earth with might and main.
              1. YOUR
                YOUR 23 November 2019 03: 40
                0
                Quote: Simargl
                Do not grind! Let's get millions!

                Especially for you. in the Battle of Kulikovo participated 100 million on each side.
                I hope you enjoyed it.
                In the future, try to move away from ernism, and in such disputes to observe at least the appearance of decency.
                1. Simargl
                  Simargl 23 November 2019 03: 43
                  0
                  Quote: YOUR
                  in the Battle of Kulikovo participated 100 million on each side.
                  ... heavily armed horsemen ... cool!

                  Quote: YOUR
                  In the future, try to move away from ernism, and in such disputes to observe at least the appearance of decency.
                  Uh ... give delusional numbers - what's this?
                  Okay - 60000: you can somehow believe (if about the total number), but 150 ... 800 is a wild delirium ...
                  1. YOUR
                    YOUR 23 November 2019 12: 05
                    0
                    Quote: Simargl
                    Uh ... give delusional numbers - what's this?

                    Refute.
                    1. Simargl
                      Simargl 23 November 2019 12: 34
                      0
                      What to refute then? Even the brachopedia is not buried already ...
              2. Minato2020
                Minato2020 23 November 2019 06: 18
                +4
                Independent researchers, exposing the pseudo-historical myths of falsifiers of history, are increasingly beginning to join professional historians, more carefully studying historical documents and artifacts stored in museums and archives. This allows not only to reveal many absurdities and inconsistencies of the official version, but also to put forward more logical and plausible hypotheses than those free interpretations of falsifiers that are described in official history textbooks. And above all, these are various myths on which the whole project of falsification of the history of Russia rests.

                The history of the Russian people has at least 5 thousand years of its history and it is the Russian people that are the indigenous population of Eastern Europe, and therefore cannot be an "occupier" on these lands.
                Nevertheless, other peoples settled here much later and were accepted by the Russians into a single cultural community. For example, the same Finno-Ugric peoples admit that they learned to cultivate agriculture from our people. And this could only be if they came to Eastern Europe later than the ancestors of the Russians. In addition, many researchers have already noted that the toponymy of the same Russian North clearly has common Indo-European (Aryan) linguistic roots (Sanskrit) and is almost identical to Aryan names in Northern India, where some of the Aryans went.

                In other words, as Professor A. Klesov has already noticed, the part of the once united people that went to India and Iran were later called Arias, and those that remained in Eastern Europe and the vast expanses of Southern Siberia (where the haplogroup substate itself had previously been formed R1a) - received the name of the Rus, Scythians, Sarmatians, etc.
                And in Siberia, as well as in Eastern Europe, it is they who are the indigenous population of these lands. Confirmation of this can be found in the oral legends of small Siberian peoples, which tell us that when their distant ancestors came to Siberian lands.
                1. Operator
                  Operator 23 November 2019 13: 18
                  +10
                  The Slavs are direct descendants of the Aryans (carriers of the haplogroup R1a), the first of them separated from the carriers R1 24 thousand years ago (Altai), 12 thousand years ago the Aryans came to Europe (Balkans), 9 thousand years ago reached the Baltic (Karelian Isthmus), 6 thousand years ago they were divided into western, Black Sea and eastern, the first of which went to Scandinavia (along with the northern Illyrians), the second to Asia, and the third became the ancestors of the Slavs.

                  The first Ugro-Finns appeared in Europe 3000 years after the separation of the Aryans and mixed with the Slavs (in the Volga and Baltic regions) and the Northern Illyrians (in Finland).
      2. Olgovich
        Olgovich 22 November 2019 09: 52
        +2
        Quote: 30 vis
        And the fact that the civilization of Central Asian states collapsed, the culture of Ancient Russia collapsed, hundreds of cities and villages were destroyed, China, India fell, the Caucasus and Georgia, Persia were ravaged. Entire civilizations were swept away and destroyed ... Metalworking, construction cultures were destroyed, written sources ... It seems that there was a nuclear war ... Millions of people died, which for that time with a small population density was critical ..

        No, this is all "invented by" German "historians to discredit the history of Russia yes
        1. Minato2020
          Minato2020 23 November 2019 20: 15
          +2
          Quote: Olgovich
          Quote: 30 vis
          And the fact that the civilization of the states of Central Asia collapsed, the culture of Ancient Russia collapsed, hundreds of cities and villages were destroyed, China, India fell, the Caucasus and Georgia, Persia were ravaged. Entire civilizations were swept away and destroyed ... Metalworking, construction cultures were destroyed, the written ones disappeared sources ... It seems that there was a nuclear war ... Millions of people died, which for that time with a small population density was critical ..

          No, this is all "invented by" German "historians to discredit the history of Russia yes


          Nuclear explosion over Moscow or Who is to blame for the fire of 1812?
          https://wod-1958.livejournal.com/3675592.html

          PS Was there a civilization in India that fell in the Middle Ages?
    4. Lannan Shi
      Lannan Shi 22 November 2019 08: 52
      +5
      Quote: YOUR
      A horse eats up to 40 kg of grass per month and drinks up to 60 - 100 liters of water. Specially interested.

      A day, actually, not a month. 40 kilos of grass or 20-25 hay. 10 feed units is an approximate daily requirement.
      1. YOUR
        YOUR 22 November 2019 09: 39
        +3
        Yes exactly. I made a mistake while writing. Thank.
    5. kapitan281271
      kapitan281271 22 November 2019 09: 06
      +6
      The article is, of course, strange, but the fact that with this yoke is not so simple, it’s for sure, there are too many, I would say catastrophically, many indirect facts that go against the official version of the story. But superethnos, arias, and so on, it really is from the area of ​​the dug up sea.
    6. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 22 November 2019 09: 20
      0
      YOUR "Their bows are something transcendent for shooting at a gallop, from which they were made, where in the mountainous desert Mongolia can get so much material."
      I will not comment on all your scribbling.))) But about the material for bows.))) As I understand it, you doubt the presence of forests in Mongolia?))) Mongolia is not only steppes. deserts, but taiga. And then our Buryats are also Mongols.))) "Forestry is self-supporting and financed by 15% of the tax value of the forest allowed for felling. Logging work is carried out by specialized enterprises and self-procurers, as well as partly by forestry and forestry. Forest use is small. So , the volume of logging in 2008 reached 2,4 million m3 (commercial timber - 1 million m3). Timber exploitation is carried out in the areas of railways, in the basins of the Tola and Iro rivers, to a lesser extent along the Selenga river. the main products of which are sawn timber, plywood, particle boards, standard houses, transport products, furniture, technological chips, containers. A small amount of wood is exported. All forests are state. Forestry activities are coordinated by the Ministry of Forests and Woodworking Industry of the MPR. Except forestry enterprises and forestries. in the system of the ministry there are logging, woodworking and private enterprises .. Forestry specialists are trained in special departments at the agricultural institute and construction college of Ulan Bator. Mongolia is greatly assisted in the training of forestry specialists. All forests are state-owned. Forestry activities are coordinated by the Ministry of Forests and Woodworking Industry of the MPR. In addition to leshozes and forestries, the system of the ministry has logging, woodworking and furniture enterprises. "- Source: Forests of Mongolia It seems that the given data are enough to understand the material among the Mongols. But it is useless to explain to believers.))) And so on. everyone.)))) We do not know, but we affirm.))) Or they say it is impossible, but on horseback so far.))) This is generally beyond the verge of insanity.)))
      1. YOUR
        YOUR 22 November 2019 09: 41
        +5
        I did not quite understand what relation our achievements in deforestation have to the Tatar-Mongol yoke.
        1. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak 22 November 2019 10: 44
          +3
          YOUR "our achievements in deforestation for the Tatar-Mongol yoke."
          These are not our achievements, but the Mongol ones. You wrote that there is no material for the production of bows and arrows?))) I wrote that there is dofiga woods there.))) I don’t want to do it.))) This is about the Mongolian forest industry. They have such an industry.))))
          1. YOUR
            YOUR 22 November 2019 11: 28
            -3
            In China, it is the same, although deforestation is prohibited there. if in the woods with matches / lighters they are detained, then the term of 5 years is provided.
            1. Zvonarev
              Zvonarev 22 November 2019 11: 59
              +5
              And, therefore, Mongolian craftsmen, so that the Chinese do not fine them, do not chop trees, do not craft bows?
              1. YOUR
                YOUR 22 November 2019 12: 42
                0
                Therefore, onions need refracted varieties of wood, such as yew. Is he in Mongolia? He is not here.
                And where did the Mongols go, why were only the Tatars left?
                1. Zvonarev
                  Zvonarev 22 November 2019 13: 33
                  +1
                  But the Tatars were not originally. In the steppes of Mongolia, many wandered. And the Mongols are also a conditional name. Do you need to name them somehow?
                  And as for the bows, I’ll say so - yew is, of course, good, but there are other breeds. And almost everything, except spruce and pine, is more or less suitable for onions. Besides, I’ll tell you a secret, the Mongols had composite bows, and the tree was not a critical element.
                  1. YOUR
                    YOUR 22 November 2019 13: 49
                    0
                    Kapets. And what is composite bow for that time, you did not bother to find out?
                    Revealing the secret. This is an onion made of various or varieties of wood or with inserts of other materials bonded to each other, i.e. compound bow. So a saadak or a saidak was made from yew, beech, sometimes met from oak with horn inserts
                    1. Hantengri
                      Hantengri 22 November 2019 18: 58
                      +6
                      Quote: YOUR
                      So a saadak or a saidak was made from yew ...

                      Saadak is a cover for onions and can be made from at least a cactus. lol Or, the whole set of equestrian archer’s armament was also called: bow in bulk (saadak) + arrows in tula (quiver). But you do not hesitate, continue ... Entertains.
                      1. Golovan Jack
                        Golovan Jack 22 November 2019 23: 14
                        +7
                        Quote: HanTengri
                        Saadak is a cover for onions and can be made from at least a cactus

                        what

                        Ahem ... it's hard to argue with that yes laughing
                      2. YOUR
                        YOUR 23 November 2019 03: 31
                        0
                        Those. what is a composite bow you do not dispute. So where did the Mongols take the material? Or is it generally accepted that they simply had such bows? Why are still no traces of the production of weapons of this army?
                        And because it is customary to believe that it was and that's it.
                        Have fun further
                      3. Minato2020
                        Minato2020 23 November 2019 06: 28
                        +4
                        If there was no 300 year old Mongol yoke, then it turns out the history books are deceiving. Perhaps they are deceiving in another, therefore such resistance to the revision of history. And what do the Mongols say in their favor? Are proud of Genghis Khan?
                      4. Pilat2009
                        Pilat2009 23 November 2019 11: 59
                        +3
                        Quote: Minato2020
                        And what do the Mongols say in their favor? Are proud of Genghis Khan?

                        Not only the Mongols-won in Tuva stands a monument to Subedea
                      5. Minato2020
                        Minato2020 23 November 2019 20: 24
                        +3
                        The Mongols erected a monument to Genghis Khan in Soviet times.
                        The so-called "Secret Legend of the Mongols" first came to the Mongols in 1942 on the 20th anniversary of the founding of the Mongolian People's Republic. In the Kremlin, the delegation of the Mongolian People's Republic was given a translated text in Russian, which was made by the linguist Kozin from the Turkic original, which was later "lost". Initially, the original was written in Old Uigur script.
                      6. Hantengri
                        Hantengri 23 November 2019 09: 55
                        -1
                        Quote: YOUR
                        Those. what is a composite bow you do not dispute. So where did the Mongols take the material?

                        Horn, bone, tendons are the main working elements of the Mongolian bow. Do you not understand where the Mongols took all this? Do you need a lot of wood to make two 200-250mm "arms" at the ends of a recurve bow?
                2. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 22 November 2019 17: 54
                  +2
                  The Mongols had composite bows. Birch and elm trees grew. There were no problems with horns.
                  1. Golovan Jack
                    Golovan Jack 23 November 2019 00: 29
                    +9
                    Quote: Korsar4
                    The Mongols ... There were no problems with horns.

                    Md what so these Mongolian wives, they are so ... Mongolian laughing
                3. Pilat2009
                  Pilat2009 26 November 2019 18: 41
                  -1
                  Quote: YOUR
                  And where did the Mongols go, why were only the Tatars left?

                  Or maybe there were Tatars and not Mongols. No wonder they remained in the Crimea and Kazan. And maybe they conquered Mongolia and forced the Mongols and other nomads to serve.
                  1. YOUR
                    YOUR 27 November 2019 03: 50
                    +2
                    You see, you are already in doubt. Read who the Polovtsy are. Polovtsy-Kipchaks-Tatars. And try to find at least one mention of the mass exodus of the Mongols from their places of residence. If you take into account that they captured China, and then went on a skating rink around the world, and even left their garrisons everywhere and retained their ancestral lands, as the story goes, there were millions and millions of them. No other way. And some of them went on a campaign by all sorts with wives, herds of children, huge wagons ....
              2. YOUR
                YOUR 22 November 2019 13: 02
                +1
                Corrected corrected. not broken, but certain
            2. Nagaibak
              Nagaibak 22 November 2019 12: 02
              +1
              YOUR "In China, it is the same despite the fact that deforestation is prohibited there."
              You wrote that there is a desert in Mongolia.))) And in this regard, "Their bows are something transcendent for shooting at a gallop, from which they were made, where in the mountainous desert Mongolia can get so much material." I told you that it is full of forests, not only deserts. There are plenty of materials.)))) Everything.)))
        2. Zvonarev
          Zvonarev 22 November 2019 11: 08
          +4
          Well, bows can not only be made from wood
    7. Hantengri
      Hantengri 22 November 2019 09: 58
      +6
      Quote: YOUR
      Historians paint so from the Mongol side it was 100-150 thousand.

      Modern military historians are inclined to the figure of 40-45 thousand. in the western campaign, a total of 4 full tumens took part. 4 tumens, 3 streams, this, you see, is a completely different logistics.
      Quote: YOUR
      And the main capital of the Golden Horde, with all our modern capabilities, has not yet been found. There are hundreds of versions and the Volga changed its course and covered everything with sand. But not found.

      Alternatively gifted, of course, they did not hear about the Selitrennoe fortification ... lol
      1. Zvonarev
        Zvonarev 22 November 2019 11: 53
        +7
        And for some, the number 33-35 thousand appears (Greeks, for example). Fear has big eyes ... We were defeated / defeated / routed ?! So this is because there were an awful lot of them! One hundred five hundred million!
        It is enough to look at the mobresource of Russia to understand that even 20 thousand organized and harmonious cavalry would be enough to deal with all the principalities individually (rarely, at least 2-3 thousand professional soldiers were recruited, many princes had a squad of 2-3 hundred. And that's it! Don’t take the militia as a militia for the army laughing ) So everything really rested on logistics. And for 30 thousand, even in the winter, somehow it could be organized. And again: is it not strange that the Mongols calmly robbed and ruined Russia ALL winter, and as soon as spring came (and the grass should have turned green - all the cattle to help) they left?
        1. Hantengri
          Hantengri 22 November 2019 12: 14
          +3
          Quote: Zvonarev
          many princes had a squad in 2-3 hundreds. And that’s all!

          And this was quite enough for "showdowns" with the closest neighbors. Take, for example, the Battle on the Ice where 350-400 people. The squad of Alexander Yaroslavich "from Novgorod" fought with 250-300 Livonians ... It seems that the number is "none", by modern standards, but what a significant result!
          1. Zvonarev
            Zvonarev 22 November 2019 12: 57
            +1
            Well, I still think that there were more than 250-300 Livonians. The chronicles also mention Prussian mercenaries. In addition, according to the Novgorod Chronicle, captured up to 50 armored men. Plus, about 100 fled (although this figure is also suspicious). And someone after all and utop. So it seems to me that the order still exhibited more than 1000 howls, including knightly cavalry. But not as much as shown, for example, in a pre-war film.
          2. Zvonarev
            Zvonarev 22 November 2019 12: 59
            +2
            And by the way, here Novgorod could put up a full-fledged army of 5-6 thousand fully equipped heavy cavalrymen and an infantryman, production and financial capabilities were quite available.
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 22 November 2019 19: 41
              -1
              Quote: Zvonarev
              5-6 thousand fully equipped heavy cavalrymen

              Such a force that one who at that time could put her on the battlefield would be the ruler of Eastern Europe, without options.
              Probably, so many would have accumulated throughout Russia.
              1. Zvonarev
                Zvonarev 23 November 2019 11: 26
                0
                Well, the phrase "could exhibit" does not mean "exhibited at least every day." The contradictions between the oligarchic elite were too great, and in reality they could act as such a common front only in the face of a mortal threat. But from the princes, no one particularly aspired to this, as it is scary, and if you gather so much strength in a campaign, then there will be no one to defend the patrimony. And Novgorod in the south was not interested in anything at all; they preferred trade expansion, moreover, to the west and northeast.
            2. Pilat2009
              Pilat2009 26 November 2019 19: 09
              0
              Quote: Zvonarev
              could put up a full-fledged army of 5-6 thousand fully equipped heavy cavalrymen and infantryman

              And in peacetime what did they do? For free they drank and ate? A professional warrior must fight, otherwise he will grow fat
          3. Doliva63
            Doliva63 22 November 2019 18: 34
            -5
            Quote: HanTengri
            Quote: Zvonarev
            many princes had a squad in 2-3 hundreds. And that’s all!

            And this was quite enough for "showdowns" with the closest neighbors. Take, for example, the Battle on the Ice where 350-400 people. The squad of Alexander Yaroslavich "from Novgorod" fought with 250-300 Livonians ... It seems that the number is "none", by modern standards, but what a significant result!

            There was no ice battle, historians say, so the example is useless.
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 22 November 2019 19: 53
              +5
              Quote: Doliva63
              There was no ice battle

              Oh how. What happened?
              1. Alexander Suvorov
                Alexander Suvorov 22 November 2019 20: 23
                +4
                Trilobite Master (Michael)
                Oh how. What happened?
                Michael, have you not yet understood? Everything is just like five cents. Two gangs of guys converged on the arrow, on the one hand there were northeastern Russes on the other western Russes and let's kick each other. Well, they did not share who to protect Novgorod.
                There were no Germans, there were no Swedes, and there was nothing at all, one solid Russia from Kamchatka to the Atlantic coast.
                If you are not in the Course, then Charlemagne, this is the Russian prince Konstantin (no matter what), and Friedrich Barbarossa, this is Prince Fyodor, well, let him be Belozersky, and why fantasize so fantasize ... laughing laughing laughing

                For those who do not understand THIS SARCASM !!!
              2. Golovan Jack
                Golovan Jack 22 November 2019 23: 12
                +4
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                Quote: Doliva63
                There was no ice battle

                Oh how. What happened?

                Essss !!! The owner, you and your trilobite - many years good laughing
          4. nikon7717
            nikon7717 22 November 2019 23: 18
            +1
            Quote: HanTengri
            Quote: Zvonarev
            many princes had a squad in 2-3 hundreds. And that’s all!

            And this was quite enough for "showdowns" with the closest neighbors. Take, for example, the Battle on the Ice where 350-400 people. The squad of Alexander Yaroslavich "from Novgorod" fought with 250-300 Livonians ... It seems that the number is "none", by modern standards, but what a significant result!

            In fact, a heavily armed knight always had from 5 to 10 light warriors, including the 1-3 squire that was the closest light warrior to support the knights in battle. So there were more than one thousand people on the lake for sure. And these were professional warriors. Know. As special forces, the elite, military units would say today. But they all did not return from the campaign. Somewhere nearby was their convoy. Maybe he got Alexander as a prey
            1. Hantengri
              Hantengri 22 November 2019 23: 53
              -1
              Did I mention 250-300 Brothers Knights somewhere? There were, according to military historian K. A. Zhukov, 35-40 brothers knights (spear, at that time, 3-5 people) + people (knights) of the Dorpat bishop (xs how many, but the Livonians write: "very few" ( squeezed, bastard! laughing )) + "chudi without number" (because there is nothing to count any bastard, because in battle they are useless 0). So try to figure out whether "there were more than one thousand people on the lake for sure."
              1. nikon7717
                nikon7717 23 November 2019 09: 48
                +4
                Fact one. Victory recognized contemporaries outstanding. The young Prince Alexander received the nickname Nevsky. And the Catholic Church stopped its expansion efforts. I consider everything else to be speculations designed to reduce the significance of victory for Russia and the severity of the military defeat of the Livonian Order (oh there were few of us, and in general, how the ice broke under 25 knights in a pig :)))
                1. Hantengri
                  Hantengri 23 November 2019 11: 09
                  -3
                  Quote: nikon7717
                  The young Prince Alexander received the nickname Nevsky.

                  Strange as it may seem, Alexander Yaroslavich received the nickname Nevsky for his victory in the Nevsky massacre. lol And ... only in the 15th century.
                  Quote: nikon7717
                  and in general, how the ice broke under 25 knights in a pig :)))

                  Oklmn ... 25 knights are 25 knightly spears, they are 125 heavily armed horsemen. 40 knights - 40 spears - 200 heavily armed horsemen. And yes, most likely, no one fell through the ice en masse. The Elder Livonian Chronicle of Rhymes says that those killed fell on the grass from both sides. Those. someone, perhaps, and "that" (April all the same), but not all, without exception, as in Eisenstein's film ...
                  Quote: nikon7717
                  I consider everything else as speculations designed to reduce the significance of victory for Russia and the severity of the military defeat of the Livonian Order

                  1. Is the political and strategic significance of victory somehow related to the number of fighters?
                  2. Of the 40 "brothers of knights" who arrived, 20 were killed, 6 were taken prisoner. This is not enough "severity of military defeat ЛIvonian Order "?
                  3. There were more of ours, their armament was better, richer, more modern and heavier than the Germans (ours are already in "scales", and the Germans are still in chain mail). Is this fact worth being proud of? Or should it be recognized as the Russophobic intrigues of modern historians?
                2. Zvonarev
                  Zvonarev 23 November 2019 11: 32
                  +3
                  Excuse me, but the nickname Nevsky is also for the ice battle? I agree with everything else, especially about the "pig on ice" effect.
        2. Pissarro
          Pissarro 23 November 2019 17: 51
          0
          Isn’t it strange that ALL winter the Mongols calmly plundered and ruined Russia, and as soon as spring came (and the grass had to turn green - all the cattle to help) they left?



          This is just not strange. Nomads are always as weak as possible in the early spring, after the experienced winter. Long before the Mongols, Russian princes went on preventative campaigns in the steppe always in the spring, knowing that the resistance would be minimal. And the nomads raided the raids always in late autumn and winter, when the horses were as hot as possible, ice bound the rivers, turning them into convenient roads and the attacked only harvested
    8. Lannan Shi
      Lannan Shi 22 November 2019 13: 04
      0
      Quote: YOUR
      Their bows are something extraordinary for galloping

      In general, the stories about archers in general, and horsemen in particular, who mow down the enemy are no worse than KPVT, to put it mildly are exaggerated. The bow was quite used until the end of the 19th century. In the same wars with Napoleon, very massively. Track efficiency is easy. Let us turn to the one who himself fought with the "invincible" steppe archers.
      Jean-Baptiste Antoine Marceline de Marbo
      "In the blink of an eye, these vile barbarians surrounded our squadrons with loud shouts and pelted them with arrows, which, however, did not bring us much harm, because the Bashkirs, who did not know how to obey any commands, did not know how to line up in ranks, and in the noise and Because of this disorder, the Bashkir horsemen could not shoot horizontally, without killing or wounding their own comrades who galloped in front of them, Therefore, the Bashkirs shot their arrows in an arc into the air, and the arrows described a larger or smaller curve , depending on how far away the archers considered the enemy.However, this method of shooting arrows during a battle does not allow accurate aiming, therefore 9/10 arrows fall in vain, otherwise the small amount that reaches the enemy, when lifting, already loses almost all the force that the bowstring gives to the arrow.Therefore, when the arrow hits the target, it has only the force of its own weight, and it is quite small, because of this, arrows usually inflicted very light wounds. And finally, since the Bashkirs did not have any other weapons, they were the most non-dangerous military unit that exists in the world."
      And this is the 19th century, among the French from protection - a vest and a peakless cap. The effectiveness of the impact on the mail cavalry, when a part of the face, the right hand, part of the forearm, the right knee, the muzzle and neck of the horse and its front legs are vulnerable? Something around zero.
      In general, when horse archers pass from fairy tales to documents, they somehow degrade rapidly. From invincible heroes to dirty savages who are easily cut by the blue-legged Vanka and Zhany, well, of course, if the balance of power is at least relatively sane.
      1. Zvonarev
        Zvonarev 22 November 2019 13: 48
        +2
        Absolutely right! They are relatively effective only in the case of complete encirclement of the enemy, when they curl around the system and showered it with arrows from all sides. Good illustration - Thermopylae. For some reason, archers became effective only after the Persians went to the rear of the Greeks. Yes, and in the annals we see descriptions of battles, so there the horse archers do not try to meet the lava of the heavy cavalry in one gulp, on the contrary, they scatter and start the attackers, with the formation already broken in the jump, into the monolithic ranks of the Mongolian heavy cavalry. Actually, it was she who decided almost everything in the winter campaign to Russia.
        But I don't quite agree on the effectiveness of arrows. Still, infantry squares are quite capable of fighting off a horse attack with small arms and not incurring serious losses simply by not allowing archers to reach an effective shooting distance. And so try in a vest and a peakless cap to "take on the chest" an arrow not even a combat bow from 30-50 meters - it will easily pierce, and break bones. Of course, if the arrow is not made of reeds, and with a combat tip.
        1. Lannan Shi
          Lannan Shi 22 November 2019 14: 47
          +1
          Quote: Zvonarev
          Yes, and in the annals we see descriptions of battles, so there the horse archers do not try to meet the lava of the heavy cavalry in one gulp, on the contrary, they scatter and start the attackers, with the formation already broken in the jump, into the monolithic ranks of the Mongolian heavy cavalry.

          1. Steppe horses grown on pasture, much slower than stalls. The Mongols are the most inhibitory of the steppes. Archery distance - 50 meters. The speed difference between Mongolians and Europeans is 250 meters per minute. 10-15 seconds to catch up with the Mongol. Then the massacre of the defenseless.
          2. Heavy cavalry of the steppe - narcotic delirium. The severity of the cavalry is determined by the weight of the horses. Mongolians, on the other hand, are classified as ultra-light.
          A classic Mongolian horse weighs 230-240 kilos, 2 times less than a light "hussar" horse. She is technically unable to drag a heavily armed rider. Restriction of carriage on the back - 1/5 of its own weight. You can even 1/4, with the condition - to go slower than a pedestrian, and the horse will die quickly and with a guarantee. Collect dwarfs, no heavier than 30 kilos. So that with weapons, armor, clothing and harness, they do not exceed 50. There are no other candidates for the role of "Mongolian heavy cavalry" by nature.
          Quote: Zvonarev
          That's just about the effectiveness of the arrows do not quite agree

          Your consent / disagreement is generally uninteresting. The words of an eyewitness who came under arrows are given. And not in a square, but in the ranks of light cavalry. Reasoning about anything, against practice ... It is somehow ...
          1. Hantengri
            Hantengri 22 November 2019 20: 16
            +1
            Quote: Lannan Shi
            The severity of the cavalry is determined by the weight of the horses. Mongolians, on the other hand, are classified as ultra-light.
            A classic Mongolian horse weighs 230-240 kilos, 2 times less than a light "hussar" horse. She is technically unable to drag a heavily armed rider. Restriction of transportation on the back - 1/5 of its own weight. You can also 1/4,

            And with what ben did you decide that the heavy Mongol cavalry rode the Mongols? In Khorezm, already captured by them, there were many very decent horses of the "Destrie" class.
            Quote: Lannan Shi
            The speed difference between Mongolians and Europeans is 250 meters per minute.

            Compared to destrie, with a knight "on board"? Horrible! Poor Mongols! Can you link to the study?
            1. Lannan Shi
              Lannan Shi 22 November 2019 22: 23
              +3
              Quote: HanTengri
              In Khorezm, already captured by them, there were many very decent horses of the "Destrie" class.

              Yeah. And there were Orcish horse riders on the wolves, dark Elven on giant spiders and a gnome hird with Aule himself. And they all recruited to the Mongols.
              Quote: HanTengri
              Compared to destrie, with a knight "on board"? Horrible! Poor Mongols! Can you link to the study?

              You can unscrew my comm down. There is a video check-in on the shire, which is 1,5 times more weighty than destrie. Even he, a frank heavy truck, looks faster than a Mongol, on which by the way children are put on races. About eight years old. For with an adult, it moves very sadly.
              By the way. The lifespan of destrie, in the steppe, until the coming winter. And to maintain heavy cavalry, combat-ready for 4-5 months a year, while annually updating the horse-drawn stock ... A rare perversion. You already decide who Genghis was. Genius, or Down.
              1. Hantengri
                Hantengri 22 November 2019 23: 03
                +2
                Quote: Lannan Shi
                There is a video check-in on the shire, which is 1,5 times more weighty than destrie. Even he, a frank heavy truck, looks faster than a Mongol,

                How many Mongolians are in the video? None? What a pity! Can you explain the methodology of comparing the speed of these two large and fat "kazy" with a speed that is not on the video for a Mongolian horse?
                1. Lannan Shi
                  Lannan Shi 23 November 2019 00: 00
                  +3
                  Quote: HanTengri
                  How many on the video is a Mongolian? None? What a pity!

                  Have better pity on these sad nags claiming the title of champions of Mongolia.

                  Quote: HanTengri
                  Can you explain the methodology for comparing the speed of these two large and fat "kazy" with a speed that is not in the video for a Mongolian horse?

                  A goat is written through O. And you know, the Mongol is more suitable for the role of a goat. Especially if you remove the kindergartner from her, and put an armed warrior. Just you will be a knight on a goat.
                  Open the "Book about the Horse" by Budyonny. Sections dedicated to Mongolians, and then to trotters. Make a discovery for yourself. You don't need record holders to chase Mongols. The average Mongolian horse is quite possible to catch up with the infantry, seated on carts. The main thing is that the ravines do not interfere.

                  In general ... I'm tired. Even laughing at you is boring. We open de Marbeau, who chased the steppe archers in 1812. The verdict is that the steppes are stupid, useless meat. Dreadbow sucks, unable to inflict significant damage even on unarmored horsemen. The only thing that is capable of saving the "conquerors of the galaxy" from total destruction is the Russian hussars, given to them for stability. And this is not written by a kitchen theorist, but by a professional cavalryman with 45 years of experience, who personally chased the steppe inhabitants. Here is a real eyewitness testimony of a real eyewitness, not a filkin letter written by a craftsman who lives from the manufacture of "ancient manuscripts".
                  Dixi.
                  1. Hantengri
                    Hantengri 23 November 2019 00: 13
                    -1
                    Quote: Lannan Shi
                    Have better pity on these sad nags claiming the title of champions of Mongolia.

                    Sane methodology for comparing speed will be, no?
                    Quote: Lannan Shi
                    Goat is written through O.

                    Sure! And "kazy" (this is a sausage made from selected horse meat. Oh-very tasty) is written with "a". laughing
                    Quote: Lannan Shi
                    But in general ... Tired. It’s boring even to laugh at you.

                    So don’t go here anymore! And then, suddenly, from boredom, depression will begin, the complexion will deteriorate ... lol
                    1. LiSiCyn
                      LiSiCyn 23 November 2019 11: 06
                      +7
                      Khan, I don’t know what your name is? Me stas hi
                      Quote: Lannan Shi
                      Goat is written through O.

                      You can’t argue with that laughing , I call my wife, with an emphasis on O, although it happens on A lol
                      Quote: HanTengri
                      ! And "kazy" (this is such a sausage made from selected horse meat. Oh-very tasty

                      Ah, kazy ... We have, in connection with the large number of people who moved from Wed. Asia, now for sale. But, "not cake" ... Either the horses are not the same, or the grass that they eat. request What about a stranger? It is a pity there is no emoticon to lick.
                      Quote: HanTengri
                      Sane methodology for comparing speed will be, no?

                      Probably no. I would have looked at the Oryol breed in the mountains.
                      The presence of the Mongols from Wed. Asia and Siberia is not a disputed fact. My friend has a bowl with dragons ... Turned out by a plow when the mound was plowed, in the Tyumen region. The photo of which he showed to the specialists. They said "scaly casting", the secret is lost.
                      And Tamgaly Tas? Rus (ancient) - Buddhists ??? belay
                  2. Golovan Jack
                    Golovan Jack 23 November 2019 00: 27
                    +5
                    Quote: Lannan Shi
                    Goat is written through O

                    Reminded:

                    The elephant will stop
                    And the trunk will tear him

                    Nothing personal, pure association request
          2. Zvonarev
            Zvonarev 23 November 2019 11: 42
            +3
            The words of an eyewitness who came under arrows are given. And not in a square, but in the ranks of light cavalry. Reasoning about anything, against practice ...

            So what's the little thing? A 19th-century witness says that bows are ineffective, an arrow cannot do anything at all ... Well, after all, there is some grief, and the people did not know. Here are just the British after Cressy and Poitiers do not get it spread, do not understand and send to the felt room. And do not refer to the power of longbow compared to the steppe bow. It is just compensated by lack of care.
            1. Hantengri
              Hantengri 23 November 2019 12: 14
              -2
              Quote: Zvonarev
              And do not refer to the power of longbow compared to the steppe bow. It is just compensated by lack of care.

              Longbow is weaker than a compound recursive bow, by definition.
              1. Zvonarev
                Zvonarev 23 November 2019 17: 54
                +2
                And I didn’t write about the recursive bow, for some reason I think that the Bashkirs of 1812 did not have them ...
          3. Zvonarev
            Zvonarev 23 November 2019 12: 19
            +2
            Uh ... And in China, too, there was nowhere to take horses?
      2. Mouse
        Mouse 22 November 2019 16: 04
        +6
        vest and visor.

        do not touch the holy !!!!! do not touch the figs with your little hands, even mentally .... when you re-write, turn on the brain a little!
      3. Pilat2009
        Pilat2009 26 November 2019 20: 02
        0
        Quote: Lannan Shi
        In general, when horse archers move from fairy tales to documents,

        Actually, you read about campaigns against the Tatars, there only guns with guns saved and order, because you’re not catching up with light cavalry, but it’s
    9. Sertorius
      Sertorius 22 November 2019 14: 34
      +3
      A horse eats up to 40 kg of grass per month and drinks up to 60 - 100 liters of water. Specially interested.
      Very poorly interested. Your horse is already dead. She needs 30 liters of water per day!
      Historians paint so from the Mongol side it was 100-150 thousand
      What kind of historians are these? Probably like you! Maybe you’ll read the modern. There, no one estimates it above 30 thousand.
      Trekking from one hemisphere to another
      Buy a globe already. Russia and Mongolia - in one hemisphere.
      1. Simargl
        Simargl 23 November 2019 03: 19
        +2
        Quote: Sertorius
        Buy a globe already. Russia and Mongolia - in one hemisphere.
        This is how to split! laughing
        Деpour the globe diagonally and ... Russia in two hemispheres ...
    10. karabass
      karabass 22 November 2019 21: 05
      -1
      Lord, aren't you ashamed *? You say dear stupidity, and so arrogantly and peremptorily that some one can infiltrate you, believe in you, and eventually move your mind (for the fate of this fool you are not a bit ashamed?)
      ps do not write anything historical anymore, not yours
    11. Pilat2009
      Pilat2009 23 November 2019 11: 58
      +1
      Quote: YOUR
      The capture of Kiev. Historians paint so from the Mongol side it was 100-150 thousand
      What do you think other armies fought? For example, the Turks in the battle of Vienna in 1683 totaled 200 thousand. To begin with, it is impossible to calculate the exact number, it means that armies of 20-40 thousand could well go, and the Mongols themselves there were few, most were recruited among conquered peoples
    12. Good_Anonymous
      Good_Anonymous 23 November 2019 18: 09
      0
      Quote: YOUR
      A horse eats up to 40 kg of grass per month and drinks up to 60 - 100 liters of water. Specially interested. Those. all this cattle was supposed to gobble up not only all the grass around Kiev, but also the forests, and also drink the Dnieper.


      100 liters of water per month, you say? Well, let's estimate: 100 liters * 300000 horses = 30mln. liters per month. In the Kiev region, the flow of the Dnieper per second is 1370 cubic meters, 1.37 million. liters. We get that in a month the horses would drink 30 / 1.37 = 21, the flow of the Dnieper in 21 seconds smile
  4. Albatroz
    Albatroz 22 November 2019 06: 13
    +6
    The Mongol-Tatar invasion and yoke took place to be.
    Archaeologists find mass graves, burnt cities, characteristic tips.
    There were 3 forms of dependence of Russia on the Horde. And Igo proving it.
    Which led to a fair lag, the Asian woman, in many respects the consequences of which we are still reaping
    1. IGOR GORDEEV
      IGOR GORDEEV 22 November 2019 07: 40
      +2
      Quote: Albatroz
      There were 3 forms of dependence of Russia on the Horde. And Igo proving it.
      Which led to a fair lag, the Asian woman, in many respects the consequences of which we are still reaping

      But, what about the civil strife between the Russian princes? This, in your opinion, did not lead to a significant lag? In my opinion, we are still reaping the consequences of civil strife - when each "prince" pulls the blanket over himself and spares no effort and money for this.
      There were "Mongols" or there were none as a result - a single Russian state.
    2. Warrior-80
      Warrior-80 22 November 2019 09: 26
      +4
      Well, to be objective, cities at that time probably burned out once every ten years, in the time of Peter the Great, this was a big problem, tips can also be found to explain. Well, in general, I also disagree with the author of the article
    3. kapitan281271
      kapitan281271 22 November 2019 09: 27
      +4
      Quote: Albatroz
      The Mongol-Tatar invasion and yoke took place to be.
      Archaeologists find mass graves, burnt cities, characteristic tips.
      There were 3 forms of dependence of Russia on the Horde. And Igo proving it.
      Which led to a fair lag, the Asian woman, in many respects the consequences of which we are still reaping

      Or maybe not, maybe they have survived until now, because they absorbed at the genetic level what loss of statehood and sovereignty is for us, look what a new conqueror means in Europe, this is just a change of the ruling elite, but ,,,,,, ,,,,
      ....... we have such a people,
      if the homeland is in danger,
      it means everyone to go to the front (V.S. Vysotsky)
      For us, it is always a matter of survival, and it may be the consequences of the invasion itself, and not just it. I don’t pretend to the historical correctness of my version, I just think that we would become who we are, remember Napoleon’s invasion, because then in a large part of Russian society the idea of ​​comparison with Batu’s invasion hovered, and understanding what would happen if we didn’t again become a single wall. So this price could be, and God's providence, so that we would not turn into a small cozy European state, but would turn not only into a great country, but also a special separate civilization.
      1. Albatroz
        Albatroz 22 November 2019 11: 41
        0
        but also a special separate civilization.

        creepy. especially when you look at today's society.
        However, we agree that YOGA was. And then thank God)
        1. kapitan281271
          kapitan281271 22 November 2019 15: 08
          +2
          Quote: Albatroz
          creepy. especially when you look at today's society.
          However, we agree that YOGA was. And then thank God)

          Maybe it, society, became such, because at some point we decided to become a cozy European power, or maybe because in the age of communications, it was so easy to ****** but pop up, although with all that the horror that floats on the surface, worthy people, we still have the majority and there are many examples.
          When I look at everything that our media and 99% of the Internet are busy with today, I’m quietly eating, just go and shoot myself. Then, in general, I understand, this is from a complete lack of talent. Remember Aunt Valya Leontyeva, and her program "From all souls ", she found absolutely positive examples and talked about them in such a way that it was impossible to tear herself away from the TV, because TALENT. Today I found a couple of marginals, pulled them into the drawer and all the ratings are secured and the journalists are happy "show all the ulcers of society." Or representatives of today's elite, in the same box, so that we would listen to how they share apartments or who with whom and from whom. Maybe our elite is today what they would like in the "Cozy European State". And our society, I think, is much healthier than the media and the Internet broadcasts to us. And also, it was not me who called Russia a separate civilization; there were little people and smarter, for example, General DE GOL hi
          1. Albatroz
            Albatroz 22 November 2019 15: 38
            +1
            it became such when it was not possible to become a cozy European power.
            claims to exclusivity, you know, gives rise to countries with megalomania, and spoiled characters inside them (such as a falcon).
            hi
        2. alexey alexeyev_2
          alexey alexeyev_2 23 November 2019 13: 30
          +3
          something that our ancestors were not particularly upset with this yoke. if you carefully read the Russian chronicles.
      2. Hantengri
        Hantengri 22 November 2019 20: 25
        0
        Quote: kapitan281271
        remember Napoleon’s invasion, because then in a large part of Russian society the idea of ​​comparison with Batu’s invasion, and an understanding of what would happen if we again did not become a single wall, hovered.

        During the invasion of Batu, we did not become a "single wall". For at that moment there were no single "us". Once again, we (in a zero approximation) became united by winning the Don battle.
        1. Zvonarev
          Zvonarev 23 November 2019 11: 45
          +3
          Well, it’s not quite so, already after 2 years Nizhny Novgorod showed their unity. And for the most part of the 15th century it is also difficult to talk about unity even within the Moscow principality.
          1. Hantengri
            Hantengri 23 November 2019 12: 10
            +1
            Key phrase: "in the zero approximation". hi
    4. Doliva63
      Doliva63 22 November 2019 18: 45
      -1
      Quote: Albatroz
      The Mongol-Tatar invasion and yoke took place to be.
      Archaeologists find mass graves, burnt cities, characteristic tips.
      There were 3 forms of dependence of Russia on the Horde. And Igo proving it.
      Which led to a fair lag, the Asian woman, in many respects the consequences of which we are still reaping

      Mass graves of the Mongols? The burnt cities of the Mongols? Characteristic tips were with the Mongolian stigma? In the first place, Russia was led to a considerable abandonment by internecine wars, which were waged with extraordinary cruelty. History requires only facts, not speculation and interpretation.
      1. Albatroz
        Albatroz 22 November 2019 19: 14
        +2
        Mass graves of the Mongols? The burnt cities of the Mongols?

        Learn to read in Russian - we are talking about Russian damage, about the losses of Russia from the invasion and yoke.
        No strife (quite small-town) can be compared with the devastating Batu army, Nevruev army, etc. And also with the exhaustion of all juice by the Horde from the Russian land.
        History requires only facts, not speculation and interpretation.

        Always keep that in mind! Especially when you pervert facts, put forward fantastic hypotheses and try to prove that night is day and vice versa
        1. Doliva63
          Doliva63 22 November 2019 19: 41
          -2
          Quote: Albatroz
          Mass graves of the Mongols? The burnt cities of the Mongols?

          Learn to read in Russian - we are talking about Russian damage, about the losses of Russia from the invasion and yoke.
          No strife (quite small-town) can be compared with the devastating Batu army, Nevruev army, etc. And also with the exhaustion of all juice by the Horde from the Russian land.
          History requires only facts, not speculation and interpretation.

          Always keep that in mind! Especially when you pervert facts, put forward fantastic hypotheses and try to prove that night is day and vice versa

          I have been reading Russian well since 5 years. But you have a problem. With comprehension of the read. Where is the evidence in the excavations that the pogroms are Mongol? They are not there. The rest are fantastic hypotheses, as you put it.
          1. Albatroz
            Albatroz 22 November 2019 19: 56
            +3
            I read fantastic hypotheses only in VO.
            For historians and archaeologists, neither the invasion nor the yoke raises questions) It has been repeatedly proved - it has been proved. And even here (by the way) the spears were once broken.
            I don’t feel like throwing beads again. Excuse me.
            Moreover, this still does not change anything. Not in the minds of homegrown counterfeiters (Sumero-Rus from the Great Khazaria laughing ), not in reality - in which there was an invasion and a yoke.
            But you have a problem.

            May be. But not like you wink
            1. Doliva63
              Doliva63 23 November 2019 18: 07
              +2
              Quote: Albatroz
              I read fantastic hypotheses only in VO.
              For historians and archaeologists, neither the invasion nor the yoke raises questions) It has been repeatedly proved - it has been proved. And even here (by the way) the spears were once broken.
              I don’t feel like throwing beads again. Excuse me.
              Moreover, this still does not change anything. Not in the minds of homegrown counterfeiters (Sumero-Rus from the Great Khazaria laughing ), not in reality - in which there was an invasion and a yoke.
              But you have a problem.

              May be. But not like you wink

              Have a nice one you too hi
              P.S. I have the same attitude to Sumero-Rus and the Mongol yoke, because no conclusive evidence exists on either side.
          2. Minato2020
            Minato2020 23 November 2019 06: 58
            +2
            The official history building continues to stagger. If everything that was taught from the time of Peter the Great will be refuted, then this will lead to a reassessment of the worldview and a new ideology will appear.
            Ideology is an integral part of society, it will exist in any case. Society either produces it itself (typical in the early stages of human existence), or it is developed by the ruling stratum. And if the absence of a unified ideology is legally proclaimed, the chance of imposing it from the outside increases.
            1. Albatroz
              Albatroz 23 November 2019 14: 10
              +1
              You do not confuse ideology with facts.
              Traditionally wink
              When facts are denied (under the guise of a fight against ideology) it is not of great intelligence and only goes to the minus of such a "sensationalist"
              1. Minato2020
                Minato2020 23 November 2019 19: 12
                +1
                Quote: Albatroz
                You do not confuse ideology with facts.
                Traditionally wink
                When facts are denied (under the guise of a fight against ideology) it is not of great intelligence and only goes to the minus of such a "sensationalist"


                An example of denial.
                The fact of the creation of the city of St. Petersburg under Peter I is denied
                based on the ideology that the Russian people are uneducated, drinking and the like.
                https://levhudoi.blogspot.com/2013/06/blog-post.html
                Conclusion - either the legislation of the Russian Federation affirms Russian civilization or is imposed from the outside about the savagery of the Russian population.

                PS At the moment, in the Russian Federation there is no state ideology.
                1. Albatroz
                  Albatroz 23 November 2019 20: 48
                  +1
                  What does ideology have to do with it ?? And all sorts of sophisms and inappropriate twists?
                  You and the different Doliva63 (Valentine) are denying the facts.
                  Recorded by sources and long noted by historians.
                  No matter how you look for sensations, you won’t argue against the facts)
                  By the way. Even the attitude to the question speaks of who is really a historian and who is a seeker of sensations)
                  I even have students - Tatars and Kazakhs - know that Igo was.
                  Are you hungry here)
  5. pin_code
    pin_code 22 November 2019 06: 14
    +1
    every hypothesis has the right to live. moreover, Alexander only stated it in his own words, no more. moreover, no one living now knows the truth.
    1. Uncle lee
      Uncle lee 22 November 2019 06: 19
      +8
      And why is the Great Wall of China looking through the embrasures to the south? Who and from whom, then built it?
      1. pin_code
        pin_code 22 November 2019 06: 27
        0
        given that Mongolia is located north of China, I can only speculate ...
      2. Moskovit
        Moskovit 22 November 2019 07: 10
        +12
        Was on the Chinese wall. The walls are on the ridges, block the walkways, so loopholes can look in any direction.
      3. Talgarets
        Talgarets 22 November 2019 07: 14
        +3
        Another lie alternatives! I looked at a bunch of photos on the Internet, everywhere loopholes on the north side
        1. Nitochkin
          Nitochkin 22 November 2019 07: 41
          +5
          Quote: Talgarets
          Another lie alternatives! I looked at a bunch of photos on the Internet, everywhere loopholes on the north side

          The Chinese have very well learned to mask the remake under antiquity. Moreover, they themselves are engaged in falsification of history. I want to note that tourists are allowed, and allowed to take pictures, not anywhere in the wall. For open visits, only a few places. The rest is forbidden to visit.
          1. Talgarets
            Talgarets 22 November 2019 07: 49
            +4
            Where does the information come from?
            1. Nitochkin
              Nitochkin 22 November 2019 17: 28
              +2
              Quote: Talgarets
              Where does the information come from?

              It's funny to argue about which way the loopholes are looking. Reminiscent of the argument between "pointed" and "blunt-pointed" by Jonathan Swift.
              The history of the "Great Wall of China" is also covered with darkness, like the history of the "Tatar-Mongol yoke". Who built it, and for what purpose, only God knows. Also, only God alone knows for certain who Genghis Khan was.
              PS There is a version on the Internet that it was built under Mao Dzedong in order to keep people busy.
        2. Kruglov
          Kruglov 24 November 2019 04: 38
          +3
          No need to go to the remake, from the time of Mao. There the loopholes will look anywhere. The old wall is to the north, almost destroyed. But there the loopholes, where they are visible, are located to the south. Tourists are not taken there, on pain of almost "death". And it's almost impossible to get there on your own. But money does its job. And under cover of the night the locals spent. You can explore until dawn. And then slowly bring down from there. Everything can be studied perfectly. Loopholes to the south. Quality wall, remake. That's it ...
      4. Flooding
        Flooding 22 November 2019 07: 43
        0
        Why do you think so? Have you personally been to the Wall?
        https://popoffich.livejournal.com/123728.html
        1. Hantengri
          Hantengri 22 November 2019 10: 17
          +1
          Quote: Flood
          Why do you think so? Have you personally been to the Wall?

          What for? Fomenko already explained everything to him!
        2. Nitochkin
          Nitochkin 22 November 2019 17: 32
          0
          Quote: Flood
          Why do you think so? Have you personally been to the Wall?
          https://popoffich.livejournal.com/123728.html

          This is an argument! He drove like a nail into the lid of the coffin. Everything immediately fell into place, bgg.
      5. Nagaibak
        Nagaibak 22 November 2019 10: 51
        0
        Uncle Lee "And why is the Great Wall of China facing south with its embrasures?"
        C'mon))) ... Where, where ... say they look?))) Strictly to the south?))) Or is it still to the north?))) And so in everything as usual.)))
        1. Vladimir61
          Vladimir61 22 November 2019 12: 11
          -1
          Quote: Nagaibak
          And so in everything as usual

          Well, not always ...
          1. Nagaibak
            Nagaibak 22 November 2019 12: 54
            -1
            Vladimir61 "Well, not always"
            Well, yes, you determined by the compass that there is the south?))))
            1. Vladimir61
              Vladimir61 22 November 2019 12: 59
              0
              Quote: Nagaibak
              Well, yes, you determined by the compass that there is south

              And why the hell am I a compass, in the controversy that embrasures were directed in both directions?
              1. Nagaibak
                Nagaibak 22 November 2019 16: 29
                +1
                Vladimir61 "Why the hell do I need a compass in the polemic that the embrasures were directed in both directions?" Conversation that the embrasures are directed strictly south. I brought a photo where in both directions. Not necessarily by the way that to the south and north.))) Maybe west and east. I just got a degenerate example. Loopholes to the south, to the south.)))
                1. Uncle lee
                  Uncle lee 23 November 2019 10: 52
                  +3
                  Quote: Nagaibak
                  Embrasures were sent in both directions?

                  What are the wise ancient Chinese: loopholes in both directions - to fight back from both white and red! wassat
            2. Bar2
              Bar2 23 November 2019 07: 52
              0
              Quote: Nagaibak
              Well, yes, you determined by the compass that there is south?)


              south uncle where the sun is, so the shadows are cast north.
              1. Nagaibak
                Nagaibak 23 November 2019 12: 24
                -2
                Bar2 "south uncle where the sun is, so the shadows are cast to the north."
                Hey, you aunt and your eye is a diamond)))) since you cast shadows.))))).
          2. 1970mk
            1970mk 22 November 2019 18: 26
            +3
            So THIS is a remake ....
        2. 1970mk
          1970mk 22 November 2019 18: 27
          +3
          And this is a remake))))
          1. Nagaibak
            Nagaibak 22 November 2019 19: 16
            +1
            1970mk "AND THIS IS a remake)))"
            Of course a remake. There, all the remake including the Chinese.))))
            1. 1970mk
              1970mk 22 November 2019 19: 20
              +2
              Do not be foolish, I repeat ..... IT'S just a Fact - everything shown to tourists under the name "Great Wall of China" was made in the 20th century ... Nothing remains of the real wall .... And if you are arguing about where is that directed-to the Chinese, please contact ... they will explain to you that what was right for you to do that)))
              1. Nagaibak
                Nagaibak 22 November 2019 19: 22
                0
                1970mk "Do not be foolish, I repeat .." Yes, I don't care. Do not crucify in front of me. I didn’t start a dispute about loopholes.))) But about Novgorod, you wrote, what did you mean - a child?
                1. 1970mk
                  1970mk 22 November 2019 19: 29
                  0
                  Yes ....... In Veliky Novgorod, there is nothing of the "antiquities" ... except as the real ruins of a church on the other bank of the Volkhov River. These are the pies .... Any historian who conducts excursions there will tell you ... It's a shame ... but nothing has survived from the Greatness of the Lord of Veliky Novgorod .... That, very little, that could somehow be revived. ... died during the Second World War ...
                  1. Nagaibak
                    Nagaibak 22 November 2019 19: 39
                    +3
                    1970mk "Yes ....... In Veliky Novgorod, there is nothing of the" antiquities "."
                    Thank. Did not know. I know that in Tobolsk and Verkhoturye the Kremlin for the most part is also a remake. True, I can’t say exactly what percentage of the remake I can’t. Let's say most of the walls and towers in Tobolsk are a remake. And in Verkhoturye as well.
                    1. 1970mk
                      1970mk 22 November 2019 20: 06
                      +2
                      Unfortunately, in general, little is left ((((The same Old Ladoga ... the fortress is being rebuilt there intensively .... but what is being done "based on" is called .... It looks beautiful ... but there they immediately said - " WHAT ARE YOU DOING "? Well, at least that way .... okay ...
                      1. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 22 November 2019 20: 20
                        0
                        1970mk "Well, at least this way .... okay ..."
                        I agree with you !!!)))
                    2. nikon7717
                      nikon7717 22 November 2019 23: 44
                      0
                      What is so new in Verkhoturye? The fortress on which the monastery is located is not one hundred years old. There was a children's zone in Soviet times. Almost intended operation was carried out. The temples are also ancient. From the Holy Trinity, a UNESCO World Heritage Site, to the huge Transfiguration Cathedral. Amazing statements.
                      1. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 23 November 2019 20: 28
                        0
                        nikon7717 "What is it about Verkhoturye from the remake?"
                        The monastery is not surrounded by a fortified wall. This is essentially a fence with decorative turrets. This is not a fortress. I talked about the Kremlin, which is opposite. So when I was there, part of the wall was being completed.)))) And I personally saw it.)))
                        Yes, admire ...))))))))))))))
      6. Simargl
        Simargl 23 November 2019 03: 25
        +2
        Quote: Uncle Lee
        And why is the Great Wall of China looking through the embrasures to the south?
        If you look at satellite photos - it will be seen that you are either not in the topic (retyping the lie), or you are lying deliberately. Loopholes towards Mongolia ... or both sides ...
      7. ver_
        ver_ 23 November 2019 11: 35
        +2
        ... 7500 years from the creation of the world in a star temple ..., the border between the Scythians and the Chinese ... - it seems to sound like this ..., but according to what calendar hell knows ё ... The Beijing count - was called Belkan - white Khan .. and why is he on the Chinese side ... More questions than answers ...
      8. Zvonarev
        Zvonarev 23 November 2019 11: 49
        +2
        Everything is clear here. The nomadic steppe residents were afraid that the Chinese would rush to settle in Siberia, and we, the distant descendants, were trying to protect us yes
      9. Pissarro
        Pissarro 23 November 2019 18: 20
        -3
        ] She looks with embrasures to the south exclusively in the inflamed brains of the Fomenkivtsi. Here is its beginning, resting against the sea. For completely flawed, the wall abuts against the sea only with its eastern end and embrasures look where it is laid to the north
        1. Nitochkin
          Nitochkin 24 November 2019 08: 01
          +4
          Quote: Pissarro
          ] She looks with embrasures to the south exclusively in the inflamed brains of the Fomenkivtsi. Here is its beginning, resting against the sea. For completely flawed, the wall abuts against the sea only with its eastern end and embrasures look where it is laid to the north

          Ha ha ha So this is a remake.
          You’re talking about the famous Shaolin Monastery, post a picture and declare that everything is ancient and genuine.
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 22 November 2019 06: 25
      +4
      Yeah, but for some reason, "Mongol-Tatars" are firmly registered on the pages of textbooks. wink Or the hypothesis of official historians has more rights to life than hypotheses that reject the "yoke" request
      Why do not historians say that type yes, we don’t know how it really was, it’s just our guesses, but instead they stamp next evidence from the same as the historians themselves and stupidly say that it was ...
      Neither common sense nor logic can convince them. Yes, because their ranks and regalia received on the spread of lies. So, we lie further ... laughing
      1. pin_code
        pin_code 22 November 2019 06: 37
        0
        and here you can’t argue with you, colleague!
        1. ver_
          ver_ 23 November 2019 11: 47
          +2
          ... well so - if your head * of the project * disagrees with you - you’ll defend the thesis and get the academic title ...- you will be an outcast ..
      2. dzvero
        dzvero 22 November 2019 09: 47
        +10
        "Stones from the sky cannot fall, they have nowhere to come from!" (c) Paris Academy of Meteorite Sciences, 1772
  6. vomag
    vomag 22 November 2019 06: 16
    +2
    Here you are clearly written that the term Mongol Tatars is coined .. you write that the Mongols steppe try to put together a bunch of gypsy camps! .. this is not possible ..
    1. pin_code
      pin_code 22 November 2019 06: 26
      +7
      I lived in Mongolia for almost 5 years. the nomads are at a fair distance from each other, even just riding a horse the next nomad’s day will not be enough, even with a clockwork horse.
      1. Nagaibak
        Nagaibak 22 November 2019 12: 08
        -6
        pin_code "I have lived in Mongolia for almost 5 years. The nomad camps are located at a considerable distance from each other, even just galloping the nearest nomad camps on a horse is not enough, even with a clockwork horse."
        If the horse was only seen in the picture, then yes. Do not jump around with the crown. And here I’ve read how, after the civil war, the Orenburg Cossacks on horseback rode quietly to the house from China, and not about the bitch of nifig. Kalmyks in the 16-17th century wound back and forth from the territory of eastern Turkestan beyond the Volga and back. Calm and stress free.
        1. pin_code
          pin_code 22 November 2019 12: 11
          0
          the question is how long did they travel (Cossacks) and how long did they wander (Kalmyks) here and there?
          1. tlauicol
            tlauicol 22 November 2019 13: 55
            -4
            Quote: pin_code
            the question is how long did they travel (Cossacks) and how long did they wander (Kalmyks) here and there?

            why don’t you ask: how long did the Mongols travel to Russia? about 20 years.
            1. Zvonarev
              Zvonarev 22 November 2019 14: 17
              +2
              But could you explain where the figure of 20 years came from?
              1. tlauicol
                tlauicol 22 November 2019 14: 24
                -2
                Quote: Zvonarev
                But could you explain where the figure of 20 years came from?

                in 1206, Temujin became Genghis Khan, uniting the tribes, and began aggressive campaigns. Until Kalki 17 years. Before the invasion 30. You can go around the Earth several times
                1. Zvonarev
                  Zvonarev 23 November 2019 11: 54
                  +1
                  This is true if Temujin proclaimed the Great campaign against Russia in Kurultai. But first, it was necessary to deal with neighbors, including China. Further, Khorezm was on the way. And you can’t even remember about Kalka, the Mongols did not wait for the princes there, they drove the Polovtsy. Anyway, that Subedai campaign was more like a reconnaissance battle. We had to see what kind of people live at sunset.
                  1. tlauicol
                    tlauicol 23 November 2019 12: 06
                    -1
                    this is true in any case, if you talk with lovers to remember that Mongolia is far away. 30 years is more than enough.
                    if you measure from the time of the first invasion, then Batu was 0 (zero) kilometers to the Russian principalities - not very far to get there, is it?
                    1. Zvonarev
                      Zvonarev 23 November 2019 12: 10
                      +1
                      This, again, does not negate the need for straightforward movement. Batu, like his grandfather, had many problems with his neighbors. I had to get distracted by the Volga Bulgaria and the remnants of the Polovtsian. Well, he could not leave them on the flanks and in the rear before going to Russia.
                      1. tlauicol
                        tlauicol 23 November 2019 12: 22
                        0
                        of course. solved problems as they arrived. the Mongols did not arrive in one day. and conquered the world too
          2. Nagaibak
            Nagaibak 22 November 2019 14: 01
            -3
            pin_code "how long did they go (Cossacks)"
            It's not a question. Read about the Kalmyks yourself. And for example, here is an example of "The Hunger Campaign of Dutov's Army." The retreat of the Orenburg Army of Generals A. I. Dutov and A. S. Bakich from the combat area near Kokchetav to Sergiopol in the winter of 1919. In a straight line from Kokchetav to Sergiopol, now it is Ayagoz in Semirechye about 970 km. The retreat began on November 22, after the capture of the city of Omsk by the Red Army (simultaneously with the Great Siberian Ice Campaign). Ended December 31, 1919. The Dutovites traveled this distance in winter, essentially without provisions. Many on foot !!!)))) Or one more thing ... The Ural army retreated from Guryev to Fort Aleksandrovsky. And then the remnants of the army retreated to Persia. "March 22 [April 4] 1920 - May 20 [June 2] 1920) - the transfer of the remainder of the ranks of the Ural Separate Army, under the command of Lieutenant General Tolstov V. S., and civilians (mainly family members) from Fort Aleksandrovsky to Persia ." There, too, there was no preparation, they went with a minimum set of food. There will be 1000 km along the sea to the Persian border. Many people died in these campaigns, so the whites retreated unprepared, without convoys, in the conditions of a typhus epidemic. Therefore, the Mongols could go very far on horseback and one horse. Add to this that they still prepared their campaigns.
            1. pin_code
              pin_code 22 November 2019 14: 44
              +4
              I read on VO and about Kalmyks and about Kolchak’s army. and according to the stories of relatives. I was just born 100 km from Kokchetav. and I agree that for the campaign we need a detailed study of the army’s movement paths, provisions, and intelligence.
              1. Doliva63
                Doliva63 22 November 2019 19: 10
                +2
                Quote: pin_code
                I read on VO and about Kalmyks and about Kolchak’s army. and according to the stories of relatives. I was just born 100 km from Kokchetav. and I agree that for the campaign we need a detailed study of the army’s movement paths, provisions, and intelligence.

                Kokchetav and the region - nostalgia of the 90s laughing My area of ​​work was up to 120 km. Around the city. Beauties! Romance! drinks
                1. pin_code
                  pin_code 23 November 2019 02: 49
                  +1
                  I welcome, fellow countryman, what is the endemic of cherries in the Volodarsky district worth?
                  1. The comment was deleted.
        2. Zvonarev
          Zvonarev 22 November 2019 13: 14
          +2
          Per day???
          The question is not exactly that. It was quite rightly noted above that to assemble a crowd of nomads from different clans is a feat in itself. To keep and direct the running of their horses is an epic feat and requires very serious organizational work. Of course, nomads never objected to rob. Here are just neighbors from the clan, well, let it be the Gray Sheep, they are somehow closer, and here their soldiers went to some last sea ... And the departing also understood this. Once they left, then they were sure of the rear. Which again speaks of the Organization. For some reason, the author and his ilk see the organizers of some Aryans, great husbands and other linguistic opuses.
          1. pin_code
            pin_code 22 November 2019 13: 59
            +1
            I wrote "close" nomad camps, not all. even the neighbors are a feat probably. even more so in those days the population was smaller.
            1. Zvonarev
              Zvonarev 22 November 2019 14: 21
              +3
              Well, actually, in your dispute with Nagaybak, I was just on your side. In the sense that for a day you can’t even go round the nearest nomads. Even a little one.
          2. Nagaibak
            Nagaibak 22 November 2019 16: 24
            -1
            Zvonarev "It was quite rightly noted above that gathering a crowd of nomads from different clans is a feat in itself."
            The very possibility of making long trips by the Mongols is being questioned. And with the organization they were all right.
            1. Zvonarev
              Zvonarev 23 November 2019 11: 58
              +1
              And what, excuse me, are doubts about long trips? Of course, looking at the modern Mongols, I will also have certain doubts. Here are just the steppes of the 13th century and contemporaries - as they say, two big differences. The same is true for other peoples, both Russian and German.
              1. Nagaibak
                Nagaibak 23 November 2019 12: 19
                +1
                Zvonarev "And what, excuse me, doubts about long trips?"
                This is a question for the Tartararians and not for me.))) I have no questions.
        3. ver_
          ver_ 23 November 2019 11: 56
          +2
          ... and about inns (pits) after 50 km. You did not hear? And how they sent to penal servitude under the tsar in Transbaikalia ...
          1. Nagaibak
            Nagaibak 23 November 2019 12: 20
            -2
            ver_ "Didn't you hear?"
            Question to the elves.)))
    2. Alexander Suvorov
      Alexander Suvorov 22 November 2019 06: 49
      -2
      vomag (sergey) try to put together a bunch of gypsy camps!
      What is the relationship between gypsies and the Mongols?
      Here you are clearly written that the term Mongol Tatars was coined ..
      WHO WRITES? Samsonov? And with what fright should I suddenly believe him? Does he even have the beginnings of a historical education? Was he on excavation expeditions and personally found evidence?
      Oh, wake up, something is also written on the fence, and there is firewood!
      1. pin_code
        pin_code 22 November 2019 06: 59
        +2
        you, too, personally did not find evidence. this is just a theory.
      2. 1970mk
        1970mk 22 November 2019 18: 25
        0
        Not for the sake of self-interest ... "Mongol-Tatar yoke" the term actually appeared in the 18th century)))) There was no such name ... Just like "Kievan Rus" ... "Vladimir Rus", etc. THIS was not called that ... But what was the name of HZ)))) Science does not know)))
    3. Pissarro
      Pissarro 24 November 2019 14: 39
      +1
      Crimean Tatars are also steppes. Do you believe in your sect that there were no raids of the Crimean Tatars in Russia and Poland?
      Arab nomads also could not unite and did not reach Spain and India and Islam spread in some other way?
      1. Minato2020
        Minato2020 24 November 2019 23: 04
        +1
        Quote: Pissarro
        Crimean Tatars are also steppes. Do you believe in your sect that there were no raids of the Crimean Tatars in Russia and Poland?


        It is unlikely that anyone will deny the abduction of Slavic girls by Crimean slave traders for subsequent sale on slave markets. Gumilev wrote about the raids of the Crimean slave traders on the Slavic lands. Therefore, the otvetka flew into the Crimea.

        Ah, otherwise in the past
        Conjured the earth with heaven
        Diva marvelous mature then
        Wonderful miracles happened themselves ...

        Forgetting the Golden Horde
        The colorful roar of the Chinese plain
        Winged Serpent in a Desert Garden
        Often hid at midnight in May.

        Only girls see the moon
        They came out gait stately, -
        He quickly picked up one,
        And soared, and sought back.

        How sparkled, how blinded and burned
        The copper shell under the moon of prey
        As a silver ring flew
        Dimensional scream over Russia forest



  7. Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 22 November 2019 06: 31
    0
    Well done, Samsonov! Like it!
    Coward and these storytellers good drinks And tell me, let in their annals the current period be called a yoke, otherwise the local "princes" demand tithes and another half of the top tax every month. It has become unbearable to live - the Herods do not allow one more time to go to the sea for the Basurmans in Turkey wassat Not that before - only a dozen were required ....laughing laughing laughing
  8. Cartalon
    Cartalon 22 November 2019 06: 33
    +1
    Well people don’t need to comment on these emissions for the sake of srach
    1. pin_code
      pin_code 22 November 2019 06: 57
      0
      here only you threw srach
  9. Talgarets
    Talgarets 22 November 2019 06: 39
    +7
    What is interesting in the article is that it is based on the works of Yu. D. Petukhov, some of whose works were recognized by the Perovsky Court of Moscow as extremist, propagating racial, national and religious hatred, a cult of cruelty and xenophobia.
    1. Captain45
      Captain45 22 November 2019 15: 11
      +1
      Quote: Talgarets
      The interesting thing in the article is that it is based on the works of Yu.D. Petukhov, some of whose works are recognized by the Perovsky Court of Moscow as extremist,

      In the 90s, I came across several books by Yuri Petukhov, but it was a fantasy with a historical bias about the Mongol-Tatars "who came to the Horde", by the way, he wrote this amusingly, out of boredom one could read somewhere on the night watch. Is this the same Petukhov?
      1. Talgarets
        Talgarets 22 November 2019 18: 42
        0
        Yes, probably one.
        1. Captain45
          Captain45 22 November 2019 21: 44
          0
          Quote: Talgarets
          Yes, probably one.

          He has a good fantasy, something that you want to come up with, especially if it is for sale. It can be seen spent on fiction for fiction, now it is developing other topics or just interested people pay more for them.
          1. Talgarets
            Talgarets 23 November 2019 07: 16
            0
            No, he died, if not mistaken in 2009
  10. pin_code
    pin_code 22 November 2019 06: 42
    +1
    By the way .. I had to hold a Mongolian saber in my hands. there are so many notches on it ... metal-ha ... but. if you re-sharpen it, you get just a very curved sword.
    1. 1970mk
      1970mk 22 November 2019 18: 22
      +1
      Can I ask? They kept the Mongolian saber?)))) Can you tell me where you got it and what time it dates from? The thing that edged weapons turn into in 300 years (we’ll generally keep silent about more time) I really saw ...
      1. pin_code
        pin_code 23 November 2019 02: 46
        0
        Departure of the museum’s exposition to the pioneer camp of Soviet specialists (East aimak, Mongolia). maybe 16-17 century. probably earlier.
        1. 1970mk
          1970mk 23 November 2019 19: 33
          0
          What does THIS have to do with the weapons of the times of Genghis Khan? 17th century? Or maybe earlier? There is no dating .... and in the 17th century, who were the Mongols? Extinct ..... degradation ... Like Europe in the "dark ages".
      2. Pissarro
        Pissarro 23 November 2019 19: 05
        0
        Theoretically, if you throw a saber into a swamp, then after a thousand years it will look good. The lack of oxygen will not let it oxidize and rust
  11. Zeev Zeev
    Zeev Zeev 22 November 2019 06: 54
    +3
    I read two lines, threw this bad business. Author - learn history and there will be happiness.
  12. Cryvedco
    Cryvedco 22 November 2019 06: 55
    +11
    Right now, I'm not going to challenge this or that version, but ... who finally came up with the term "Tatar-Mongols" ?! Well, damn it, like the Afro-Scots or the Arab-Yakuts there.
    1. Pike
      Pike 22 November 2019 08: 10
      +1
      The term "Mughals" is found in chronicles, the notorious "Tartaria" was drawn on ancient maps. Modern "historians" have simply combined the two terms.
      1. novel66
        novel66 22 November 2019 10: 44
        +4
        on the basis of what connected two completely different ethnic groups?
        1. Pike
          Pike 22 November 2019 12: 49
          +2
          I was surprised at the lessons of history
      2. Captain45
        Captain45 22 November 2019 15: 19
        +2
        Quote: Pike
        The term "Mughals" is found in chronicles, the notorious "Tartaria" was drawn on ancient maps. Modern "historians" have simply combined the two terms.

        About Tartaria on European maps, it seems to me that everything is very simple. Here the ancient Greeks called hell Tartarus i.e. it was something terrible, distant, inaccessible to an ordinary person. And what was Siberia for the same Dutch, French, British? Yes, too, with something terrible, distant, inaccessible to an ordinary person, especially since no Europeans were there, they knew about Siberia only from the stories of the boyars at the court of the Moscow Tsar. But to lie in the story, but don’t feed honey .... And what is the name of this unknown territory? Of course Tartarus (hell) - Tartaria.
      3. Zvonarev
        Zvonarev 23 November 2019 12: 02
        +2
        That’s how the Tatars are mentioned in the annals
        "and come to the Tartar's nasty". Another thing is that behind the name "Tatars" anyone could have stood there, the chronicler hardly saw them personally.
  13. parusnik
    parusnik 22 November 2019 07: 01
    +8
    Yes, that's right, the Rus of the Scythian Siberian world left behind a rich inheritance: man-made Lake Baikal, man-made Siberian rivers, if you think that this is nature that has patched up, you are mistaken .. laughing laughing They still bred mammoths ... laughing
    1. Pike
      Pike 22 November 2019 08: 20
      +5
      Russia is the birthplace of elephants! )
      Although not everything is clear with mammoths), some mammoth bone figures found in Kostenki (near Voronezh) are more than 40 years old
      1. Mcar
        Mcar 22 November 2019 09: 20
        +2
        Quote: Pike
        Russia is the birthplace of elephants!

        The word comes into the language along with an object that the people did not have. If there were no elephants, then the word is borrowed. Moreover, together with elephantatelephantgo, forelephant etc. Question - from which language?

        Quote: Pike
        Although not everything is clear with mammoths), some mammoth bone figures found in Kostenki (near Voronezh) are more than 40 years old

        Even how ambiguous!

        1. Doliva63
          Doliva63 22 November 2019 19: 19
          +1
          Quote: McAr
          Quote: Pike
          Russia is the birthplace of elephants!

          The word comes into the language along with an object that the people did not have. If there were no elephants, then the word is borrowed. Moreover, together with elephantatelephantgo, forelephant etc. Question - from which language?

          Quote: Pike
          Although not everything is clear with mammoths), some mammoth bone figures found in Kostenki (near Voronezh) are more than 40 years old

          Even how ambiguous!


          My grandfather, when he was the chief engineer of LenZoloto in the 30s, had a sweater made of mammoth wool. From his words, of course, but I believe this could be.
          1. ver_
            ver_ 23 November 2019 12: 19
            +2
            ... not so long ago I read that the moon Fata fell to the Earth not so long ago and the climate of Siberia changed - it was subtropical ... - the clay of this moon mixed with the moisture-saturated atmosphere and clay rains started, they lost part of the atmosphere and it got pretty cold -mammoths survived - there was no water left for them - everything froze ...
          2. alexey alexeyev_2
            alexey alexeyev_2 23 November 2019 13: 35
            +2
            I am not surprised at all. I even tried the mammoth meat. On Yamal.
          3. Minato2020
            Minato2020 23 November 2019 20: 43
            +3
            Quote: Doliva63
            My grandfather, when he was the chief engineer of LenZoloto in the 30s, had a sweater made of mammoth wool. From his words, of course, but I believe this could be.


            Mammoths are rightly called fossils.
            Because in our time they are simply digging.
            In order to extract tusks for crafts.

            It is estimated that over two and a half centuries in the north-east of Siberia, tusks belonging to at least forty-six thousand (!) Mammoths were collected (the average weight of a pair of tusks is close to eight pounds - about one hundred and thirty kilograms).
            Mammoth Tusks DIG. That is, they get them out of the ground. But how did they end up underground? At a depth of 10 meters or more? Why do mammoth tusks dig from cliffs on the banks of rivers? Moreover, massively. So massive that a bill has been introduced in the State Duma that equates mammoths with minerals, as well as introduces a tax on their extraction. According to science, the distribution area of ​​mammoths was huge:
            But for some reason they dig them in large numbers only in the North of the Russian Federation.
            And now the question arises - what exactly happened that whole mammoth cemeteries formed here?
            You can build the following logical chain:
            1. There were a lot of mammoths.
            2. Since there were many of them, they should have had a good forage base - not the tundra, where they are now found
            3. If it was not the tundra, the climate in those places was slightly different, much warmer.
            4. A slightly different climate Beyond the Arctic Circle could only be if it were not the Arctic at that time.
            5. Tusks of a mammoth, and even entire mammoths themselves are found underground. Somehow they got there, an event happened that covered them with a layer of soil.
            6. Taking it as an axiom that mammoths themselves didn’t dig holes, only water could bring this soil, first surging through, and then descending.
            7. The layer of this soil is thick - meters, and even tens of meters. And the amount of water that caused such a layer should have been very large. Ocean, so to speak, quantity.
            8. Carcasses of mammoths are found in a very well-preserved condition - if their meat can be eaten, then the event that destroyed them did not take place tens of thousands of years ago, but relatively recently. And immediately after the washing of the corpses with sand, their freezing followed, which was almost instantaneous. Even if not instant, then very fast.
            The resulting conclusion is contrary to the official point of view on the previous Being.
    2. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 22 November 2019 12: 11
      +1
      parusnik "They also bred mammoths .."
      Bravo !!!))) Skiforussa is generally beyond.)))
    3. Simargl
      Simargl 23 November 2019 03: 34
      -2
      Quote: parusnik
      They still bred mammoths ...
      Not this way! Mammoths, they just worn out.
  14. VLR
    VLR 22 November 2019 07: 07
    +7
    Seeing the headline, I was scared that this article would be taken for mine. But it seems people figured out smile
    1. pin_code
      pin_code 22 November 2019 07: 50
      -1
      By and large, your series of articles, also a retelling of one of the versions, no more. although I read with pleasure.
    2. Hantengri
      Hantengri 22 November 2019 10: 25
      +5
      Quote: VlR

      Seeing the headline, I was scared that this article would be taken for mine. But it seems people figured out

      Apparently, this is Samson's "answer to Chamberlain," i.e. You. I could not stand it, I was sick. lol I am afraid that a whole series of "revelations" awaits us now.
      1. Alexander Suvorov
        Alexander Suvorov 22 November 2019 10: 46
        +4
        HanTengri (Igor)
        I am afraid that a whole series of "revelations" awaits us now.
        Igor! hi Apparently and the truth is waiting. Although this is not Samsonov's first pearl about the "myth of the Tatar-Mongol invasion."
        Another thing scares me. The number of alternatives is growing from article to article. This crap is really contagious. Moreover, it infects quite normal and adequate. I’m here from some commentators, well, I didn’t expect a nick. It seems that their ancient Ukrainians bit at night.
        Along the way, in Durk open day.
        1. Hantengri
          Hantengri 22 November 2019 11: 19
          +5
          Quote: Alexander Suvorov
          Another thing scares me. The number of alternatives is growing from article to article. This crap is really contagious. Moreover, it infects quite normal and adequate. I’m here from some commentators, well, I didn’t expect a nick. It seems that their ancient Ukrainians bit at night.

          I also do not understand why normal, sane people seem to get this rubbish. I have one good friend, a candidate of physical sciences and mathematics, an excellent specialist in my field, but, God forbid, start a conversation with him about history ... At once logic, common sense, a scientific approach disappear and begins: rewritten, they lie, hide, falsify, etc.
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 22 November 2019 12: 27
            +10
            I also do not understand why normal, sane people seem to get this rubbish.
            The answer can be found in Nietzsche, in his book "Untimely Reflections:" On the benefits and harms of history for life. "In it, he, in particular, says that people often try to create a comfortable story in which they would like to live.
            And since people are very different, the story that has been invented, respectively, is very different. Therefore, some stories will distort, interpret in their own way, others mythologize, simplify and so on.
            Someone wants to be proud of ancient greatness. And since there is a demand in society, there will always be those who satisfy this demand or use it for certain purposes, propaganda, for example.
            Moreover, the desire to "glorify" history and "super-ethosization" does not have any one localization. Such sprouts arise periodically in very different places and in very different minds.
            Suffice it to recall the Finnish Egyptologist, artist, poet, composer, astronomer, architect and freemason Sigurd Wettenhovi-Aspa. In 1935, he published the fundamental research "Kalevala and Egypt", in which he argued very reasonably that Finland is the birthplace of all human civilization, the culture of ancient Egypt was developed not by some Africans, but by the Finns who came through India to the banks of the Nile. By the way, even the very name "pyramid", in his opinion, directly points to Finland: the word "pyramids" is nothing more than a distorted Finnish "pyhät raamit" - "Holy frames". A familiar train of thought, isn't it?
            Ukrainians also have their own Vettenhovi-Aspa. This is an emigrant from Canada Lev Silenko, Rodnover, the creator of the religious movement "Worship of the One God Dazhbog".
            Back in 1979, this prophet made a folio "Mighty Faith" with a volume of 1427 pages and 3 kilos in weight, in which he outlined the history of mankind, in which, naturally, the Ukrainians are at the head. I quote briefly.
            "The book traces the historical, missionary path of the ancient Ukrainians-Aryans, who carried agricultural culture to the worlds in the following directions: Oriana (Ukraine) - India - China - Babylon (Mesopotamia) - Egypt - Palestine - Crete - Gittia (territory of modern Turkey) - Italy - Greece - Aztecs - Peru - Western Europe. The Sumerian author paid much attention to the migration of Orian to Mesopotamia. " Sumerians (Sumerians) - Silenko notes, - the first civilized people on earth, came to the fertile valleys of the Tigris and Euphrates 5300 ago and turned the Mesopots into Eden (paradise). "
            So, no more, no less.
            But the amateur attempts of Finns and Ukrainians look like a children's game against the backdrop of the monumental efforts of venerable professionals. Moreover, by no means professional alternative specialists. These are official historians.
            For example, the Chairman of the Commission on the History of Culture of Ancient Russia of the Council on the History of Culture under the Presidium of the Russian Academy of Sciences, Professor Valery Alekseevich Chudinov.
            A respected Russian historian, Doctor of Philosophy and an employee of the State University of Management presented his doctrine in a concentrated manner not on the VO website or in a tabloid leaflet, but immediately in the official "Russian newspaper".
            To summarize Chudinov, modern people appeared in Africa about 160-200 thousand years ago, and began to migrate outside the Black Continent only 100 thousand years ago. Nevertheless, Mr. Chudinov categorically asserts that already 200 years ago, the first people on the planet spoke exclusively Russian: "... The existence of the Russian language (you can call it whatever you like: the most ancient Russian, Paleo-Russian, Common Slavic, Indo-European) in the most ancient times - specifically: at least two hundred thousand years ago. "
            Moreover, the professor declares the presence of written sources, which are 200 000 years.
            "I note that all the inscriptions were written in Russian, but not quite modern: the names of many animals, tools, household items, geographical areas, the spelling of demonstrative pronouns, verb forms was different. However, despite these small differences, any text ( and they are usually very short, just a few words) was easily understood as Russian. So I can say with good reason that many thousands of years before Cyril and Methodius, our ancestors wrote the way we write with you. "
            This is the scope. And you criticize Samsonov. His tales of superethnos are babble compared to the trumpet voice of professional historians.
            1. Captain45
              Captain45 22 November 2019 15: 22
              +3
              Quote: Undecim
              Moreover, the professor declares the presence of written sources, which are 200 000 years.
              "I will note that all the inscriptions were written in Russian, but not quite modern: the names of many animals,

              So he has the corresponding surname-CHUDINOV, an old man is strange .. lol
            2. Edward Vashchenko
              Edward Vashchenko 22 November 2019 15: 50
              +6
              Chudinov is not a historian, that he sits in some pseudo-historical societies is tantamount to a manager’s faculty at the Academy of Civil Engineering and Construction.
              By education a physicist. His Ph.D. thesis “Philosophical analysis of the concepts of divisibility and compatibility”, the doctoral thesis even worse - “Philosophical problems of natural science atomism”.
              So, he has nothing to do with professional history, from the word: at all. laughing
              1. Hantengri
                Hantengri 22 November 2019 21: 07
                +1
                Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
                By education a physicist. His Ph.D. thesis “Philosophical analysis of the concepts of divisibility and compatibility”, the doctoral thesis even worse - “Philosophical problems of natural science atomism”.
                So, he has nothing to do with professional history, from the word: completely

                No need to shove IT to us! laughing You never know what he graduated from there! Defended your defense in philosophy? It means a humanist! He was still studying to be a philologist, and this is generally a "zashkvar"! laughing He is not a physicist! You can take it to yourself, in the shadow of the humanities. We give it to you. lol
                1. Edward Vashchenko
                  Edward Vashchenko 22 November 2019 21: 50
                  0
                  You write frank nonsense, as if it was a speech about corporate solidarity, a speech about what is pseudoscience and science. Here is what you need to understand and distinguish.
                  And the fact that the leaders of false studies in the humanities are now “lyric physicists” is not physics or mathematics as science is to blame, but a general approach and environment. It would not have occurred to me to blame all science for the fact that there are people who are struck by cognitive dissonance.
                  1. Undecim
                    Undecim 22 November 2019 22: 03
                    -2
                    Edward, the lack of a sense of humor, British scientists consider a serious symptom, and the Estonian (!) Neurophysiologist Jaak Panksepp believes that this sensation activates the brain.
                  2. Hantengri
                    Hantengri 22 November 2019 22: 12
                    +1
                    Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
                    ..... It would not have occurred to me to blame all the science that there are people who are struck by cognitive dissonance.

                    It doesn’t come to me either, since I have been ill for a long time with great physical chauvinism. Edward, one cannot be so impenetrably serious. I'm just kidding. I even inserted these idiotic emoticons ...
                    1. Edward Vashchenko
                      Edward Vashchenko 22 November 2019 22: 53
                      +2
                      Igor,
                      I do not understand, I think many perceive as well, despite the smiles laughing
                      Well, let's go laughing I agree, Chudinov is not a historian, even Jaak Panksepp himself believes that this feeling activates the brain wassat
                    2. Undecim
                      Undecim 23 November 2019 14: 23
                      -1
                      Igor, judging by the minuses, the "alternatively gifted representatives of the superethnos" are on duty on the site.
                      1. Edward Vashchenko
                        Edward Vashchenko 23 November 2019 16: 53
                        -2
                        I spat to you, but it’s useless
                      2. Hantengri
                        Hantengri 23 November 2019 19: 52
                        -3
                        It seems that the entire contingent of the kramola.info site has decided to gradually move to the "History" section of VO.
                  3. syndicalist
                    syndicalist 23 November 2019 15: 24
                    0
                    Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
                    it did not occur to all science to blame that there are people who are struck by cognitive dissonance

                    And then who is to blame? Well, by golly, now there is a feeling that almost all of modern science and almost all scientists (of those who are by ear) are struck by this ailment.
            3. Elturisto
              Elturisto 23 November 2019 10: 38
              -1
              Thank you. Great comment. Do you have any articles on this subject? I regularly have to talk with sectarians (it’s hard to imagine that you can believe this crap). But they really exist, raise children, actively go to general and art schools, conduct missionary schools activity. In general, they represent a real danger to society.
              1. Undecim
                Undecim 23 November 2019 10: 44
                -1
                No, articles on this topic are "not filed". The fight against sectarianism and other various manifestations of human stupidity does not appeal to me at this stage.
              2. Undecim
                Undecim 23 November 2019 10: 44
                -3
                No, articles on this topic are "not filed". The fight against sectarianism and other various manifestations of human stupidity does not appeal to me at this stage.
                1. Elturisto
                  Elturisto 23 November 2019 10: 53
                  0
                  If it were just a manifestation of human stupidity! How ... The themes of racial and ethnic superiority are being intensively cultivated among various nations. One approach is the great past that some alien enemies destroyed, they are to blame for all the sorrows, and if you get rid of them then It's gonna be allright.
          2. Simargl
            Simargl 23 November 2019 03: 37
            +4
            Quote: HanTengri
            I have one good acquaintance, candidate of physics and mathematics, an excellent specialist in my field, but, God forbid, have a conversation with him about history ... At once logic, common sense, and scientific approach disappear.
            Fomenko is also a mathematician ... have they bitten one infection?
  15. tlauicol
    tlauicol 22 November 2019 07: 20
    0
    they say, from today, inquiries in the drug dispensary have risen in price
    1. pin_code
      pin_code 22 November 2019 07: 30
      -1
      you have problems with this, h
      are you so worried?
      1. tlauicol
        tlauicol 22 November 2019 08: 28
        +3
        how not to worry when you are more and more ... I already thought that the Chronolozhites will die, but no - they share their budding
    2. novel66
      novel66 22 November 2019 10: 46
      +1
      Putin canceled ... URA, chtoli ...
  16. Korsar4
    Korsar4 22 November 2019 07: 23
    +7
    "Churchill invented it all
    In the eighteenth year! "(C).
  17. Flooding
    Flooding 22 November 2019 07: 31
    +6
    I like a lot in this article.
    Freedom of thought, not burdened by classic cabinet gibberish.
    The breadth of scope, not limited to hundreds of useless volumes in history.
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 22 November 2019 07: 48
      +3
      К
      Quote: Flood
      The breadth of scope, not limited to hundreds of useless volumes in history.

      Knowing without thinking stupidity, thinking without knowing stupidity is doubly!
      1. Flooding
        Flooding 22 November 2019 08: 02
        +4
        Dear Kalibr,
        and irony is a sign of intelligence.
        What does the absence of it mean?
        Indeed, the subtext is read so easily.
      2. Flooding
        Flooding 22 November 2019 08: 48
        -2
        Quote: kalibr
        Knowing without thinking stupidity, thinking without knowing stupidity is doubly!

        By the way, an extremely controversial maxim.
        I don’t know who the author is, but a schoolboy can refute it.
      3. Boris55
        Boris55 22 November 2019 09: 10
        +2
        Quote: kalibr
        Knowing without thinking stupidity, thinking without knowing stupidity is doubly!

        Faith does not imply knowledge, much less reflection. The believer needs a guide because he is blind and deaf to the voice of reason.

        Everyone has their own truth. Truth is the truth of many.

        As soon as the majority believed in the presence of the "Tatar-Mongol yoke" - it became true. For this business, they write articles and defend dissertations. Anything that contradicts the faith of the majority is recognized as sedition.

        Everyone heard about Miller, Schlösser, etc., the nemchur, who edited our story for us, even the work of Lomonosov was released after his death, and only after Miller rummaged there, and nevertheless, faith is not foolish, hardly speaking Russian, is faceless .. This is just amazing!

        In almost everyone in the comments, no one even had a shadow of doubt ... sad

        Quote: kalibr
        Take a trip - see how it works.

        Why go - photos in the internet sea (at sunset):

        1. Sentinel-vs
          Sentinel-vs 22 November 2019 09: 31
          +4
          Any photo can be mirrored in any direction and signed at sunset / sunrise, as you like.
          1. Boris55
            Boris55 22 November 2019 09: 42
            -1
            Quote: Sentinel-vs
            Any photo can be mirrored in any direction.

            It is possible, but changing the lighting in the photo is not so simple. The Chinese wall is great and if you wish, you can find any segment of it that suits your ideas about the world.
          2. 1970mk
            1970mk 22 November 2019 18: 14
            0
            photos in the internet sea

            Photos of WHAT? When is IT built? Elementary in the same internet, ask what is from the "Great Wall of China" now? Surprise - NOTHING! Absolutely. All the photos and what you posted a remake. At the same time, the Chinese cannot themselves say what they were guided by in their pseudo reconstruction.
          3. 1970mk
            1970mk 22 November 2019 18: 43
            +2
            Which picture? What "teeth"? The Chinese wall is what is shown to tourists ... And THIS was done in the last century ...... there is no Ancient Chinese wall ..... there are ruins .... foundations .... remains of the "duvala" type .. . and what the Chinese have done recently "based on")))
        2. Flooding
          Flooding 22 November 2019 13: 51
          +2
          Quote: Boris55
          Faith does not imply knowledge, much less reflection. The believer needs a guide because he is blind and deaf to the voice of reason.

          That is, any faith for a person is evil. This is something new.
          And, of course, all the philosophers of antiquity and the Middle Ages, people who for the most part were believers, were not capable of reflection or knowledge.
          Bravo!
      4. Edward Vashchenko
        Edward Vashchenko 22 November 2019 15: 51
        -4
        Excellent words Vyacheslav Olegovich! Exactly!
  18. kalibr
    kalibr 22 November 2019 07: 47
    +3
    Quote: Uncle Lee
    And why is the Great Wall of China looking through the embrasures to the south? Who and from whom, then built it?

    Who told you that? You were there? Take a trip - see how it works.
  19. kalibr
    kalibr 22 November 2019 07: 50
    +1
    Quote: Talgarets
    What is interesting in the article is that it is based on the works of Yu. D. Petukhov, some of whose works were recognized by the Perovsky Court of Moscow as extremist, propagating racial, national and religious hatred, a cult of cruelty and xenophobia.

    Birds of a feather flock together!
  20. kalibr
    kalibr 22 November 2019 08: 03
    +3
    "Storming of Vladimir by the Horde" = caption under the first picture. Was the Horde already there then? It seems to be a later education? And if so why write this? No term found?
  21. Slavutich
    Slavutich 22 November 2019 08: 12
    +3
    It’s a pity, the lasso was thrown at me at the wrong time, -
    I would suck a glass - and to the Vatican!
    The churchmen parted the bakery
    Confused a little Vatican, -
    We threw the pope to them -
    From ours, from the Poles, from the Slavs.
    1. Hantengri
      Hantengri 22 November 2019 10: 37
      +2
      Quote: Slavutich
      It’s a pity, the lasso was thrown at me at the wrong time, -
      I would suck a glass - and to the Vatican!

      "It hurts our souls
      Voices thousands of miles away.
      We do not stifle America in vain
      Oh, do not crush Israel in vain:
      With all its hostile essence
      Undermine and harm -
      They feed us, drink us bermuta
      About the mysterious square! "(C) laughing
  22. The comment was deleted.
    1. Minato2020
      Minato2020 23 November 2019 07: 04
      +2
      Old Russian history, like no other, has undergone many transcriptions, free interpretations and outright falsifications, the peak of which fell on the first century of the Romanov dynasty, which, after replacing Peter and marrying this impostor to a German courtyard girl, were no longer the Russian dynasty. Especially considering the fact that all subsequent Russian tsars married only princesses of German blood. Naturally, the German historians hired by the Romanovs did their best to give legitimacy to the rule of the Russian people by the non-Russian dynasty. But even before them, the impostor himself laid the foundation for this, having abolished the Old Russian calendar and stolen essentially several thousand years of Russian history, which had been going on since the community of Indo-European Aryans.
      Many researchers note the dramatic changes that took place with Peter I, after his return from the "Great Embassy" to the countries of the West. A completely different person returned back - an ardent Russophobe who hates everything Russian, including his own people, who renounced their relatives and former friends.
  23. Ezekiel 25-17
    Ezekiel 25-17 22 November 2019 08: 33
    +3
    O tempora, o mores ...
    1. Slavutich
      Slavutich 22 November 2019 14: 41
      +2
      What yes: yes. Hard times and manners.
  24. BAI
    BAI 22 November 2019 08: 43
    +5
    “Mongols” are the Russes of the Scythian Siberian world, the most powerful and great people of Northern Eurasia from the Urals to the Pacific Ocean. The "Mongols" were Aryan Indo-Europeans, not the Mongoloids. The myth of the “Mongol-Tatar yoke” was invented in the Vatican in order to distort the true history of Russia and the Rus (Russian people).

    The morning began on the collective farm. Myth is the author’s crazy ideas.
    1. Alexander Suvorov
      Alexander Suvorov 22 November 2019 09: 13
      -4
      BAI
      The morning began on the collective farm. Myth is the author’s crazy ideas.
      My regards! hi Well, from today, certificates from drug addicts have risen in price by several orders of magnitude. So sick.
      1. Boris55
        Boris55 22 November 2019 09: 26
        +2
        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
        Well, from today on, certificates from narcologists have risen by several orders of magnitude.

        Sleep long, have already been canceled.
  25. Vadim Golubkov
    Vadim Golubkov 22 November 2019 08: 47
    +1
    I barely read it. Can the author troll readers?
  26. RUSS
    RUSS 22 November 2019 08: 55
    -2
    It’s good that Samsonov is there, people reading this nonsense understand that everything else that comes out of this man’s pen is nonsense, especially about Stalin about his greatness
    1. Fraracol_2
      Fraracol_2 22 November 2019 19: 30
      -2
      That's for sure!!!
  27. Zvonarev
    Zvonarev 22 November 2019 09: 12
    +7
    But I'm also interested. Suppose that in Russia the history is distorted, documents are forged or destroyed for the sake of one or another force and belief. There were precedents, and not so long ago. But!
    What to do with Arab and Chinese historians, Western European chroniclers and travelers? They, too ... hmm ... became participants in the anti-Russian conspiracy? Moreover, in order not to be trifled and subsequently not to be distracted by trifles, right from the 13th century? Well, then to just rest on our laurels and toss firewood? The Vatican, perhaps, could have acted in such a way to the peak of Orthodoxy as a way to catholicize Russian lands. But the Chinese and the Arabs with the Persians? Why should they?
    PS And about the lack of skulls of the Mongoloid type ... So the Mongols were not always buried in the ground. well, and if it’s still in the ground, then then drove herds over this place so that no enemy could find and defile. And why did everyone decide that the Mongols so cautious even in their native steppes in a foreign country would not try to hide the grave? Well, or at least move it away from the battlefield? And it would be like in modern eastern Europe - all sorts of people go to cemeteries and monuments and ... in general, vandals
    1. Minato2020
      Minato2020 23 November 2019 21: 10
      +3
      Quote: Zvonarev
      But I'm also interested. Suppose that in Russia the history is distorted, documents are forged or destroyed for the sake of one or another force and belief. There were precedents, and not so long ago. But!
      What to do with Arab and Chinese historians, Western European chroniclers and travelers? They, too ... hmm ... became participants in the anti-Russian conspiracy? Moreover, in order not to be trifled and subsequently not to be distracted by trifles, right from the 13th century? Well, then to just rest on our laurels and toss firewood? The Vatican, perhaps, could have acted in such a way to the peak of Orthodoxy as a way to catholicize Russian lands. But the Chinese and the Arabs with the Persians? Why should they?



      The first empire of the white race, which was written in the Mahabharata, scientific historical circles attributed to fantasy.
      The second empire, which arose on the ruins of the first, was ignored together.
      In order to mislead the masses (someone had conquered China, India and Iran; defeated the invincible Urartu and Assyria), the Scythian, Sarmatian, Massagetan tribes were invented, the Zhou, Dinlin, and Juan tribes. Allegedly, all this was done on the historical stage by individual tribal associations, which had gone mad from malice and greed.
      There was a third race, directly related to the Huns, which, of course, were not any Mongoloids.
      The Hunnic empire, which arose in the south of Siberia immediately after sunset, the second, did even easier. They said that the Huns by race were Mongoloids and did not speak the Old Russian language, but Turkic and Ugric.

      That is why the Chinese emperor (III century BC) Qin Shihuandi, the one who was able to liberate China from the Dinlin and unite it into a single whole, ordered to burn all ancient Chinese chronicles without exception. Moreover, on his orders, four hundred of the best Chinese scientists were buried alive in the ground.
      What we now call the Chinese annals were written in the XNUMXth century by Italian Jesuits who copied the history of the "Celestial Empire" from the ancient Roman past. Only a few Taoist chronicles and only three Buddhist ones survived. One thing is clear, Qin Shi Huang destroyed the past of his people at the behest of those who understood that in the historical science of the future there should not be even a hint of the northern empire of the white race.
      That is why all subsequent (starting with the Huns) conquests of the white race in Europe began to be called invasion by the representatives of the yellow race - the Mongoloids.

      The so-called "Secret Legend of the Mongols" first came to the Mongols in 1942 on the 20th anniversary of the founding of the Mongolian People's Republic. In the Kremlin, the delegation of the Mongolian People's Republic was given a translated text in Russian, which was made by the linguist Kozin from the Turkic original, which was later "lost". Initially, the original was written in Old Uigur script ...
      1. Pissarro
        Pissarro 24 November 2019 15: 41
        +1
        Could you put here the order of Qin Shihuandi to destroy all manuscripts and bury scientists? Or did you get this billiard from the constellation Tau Ceti?)
        1. Minato2020
          Minato2020 24 November 2019 19: 04
          +2
          Quote: Pissarro
          Could you put here the order of Qin Shihuandi to destroy all manuscripts and bury scientists? Or did you get this billiard from the constellation Tau Ceti?)


          Order of Qin Shihuandi in the original language on the destruction of all manuscripts and the digging of scholars,
          as well as the order on the burning of the four wise men in Novgorod in the bishop's court "there were four magi in the yard" with the permission of the archbishop (Nikon Chronicle, 1227),
          and also the order of the Moscow Metropolitan Daniel, according to which in 1504 Prince Lukomsky was burned for reading books in Moscow, as heretics Ivan Volkov, Mikhail Konoplev, Ivan Maximov were burned, in Novgorod - Nekras Rukavov,
          Aleksey Mikhailovich’s decree in 1648 on the prohibition of songs, holidays, dances, games (it’s forbidden to swing on a swing, bury fallen soldiers in the mountains (barrows) and to hold a feast (commemoration with a feast). The decree mentioned the dangers of buffoons, ordered to break dudas, harp etc., but for those who follow buffoons (imitates, mumbles), gods and a link were prescribed),

          as well as other orders (decrees) on this site it is not possible to lay out.

          Consider it sent from the constellation Hercules.
          1. Pissarro
            Pissarro 24 November 2019 21: 42
            0
            Indeed, as I myself did not realize, there is a direct connection between the ban on playing the pipes and harp under the window of the Russian metropolitan and the tyranny of the ancient Chinese emperor. This one is so obvious.
            You can write a whole dissertation to a psychiatrist about the fragmented consciousness of Fomenkovites and attempts to look for connections between everything in the world)
            1. Minato2020
              Minato2020 24 November 2019 22: 07
              +2
              Why write (and subsequently defend) a dissertation? Everything is so obvious.
              The Chinese emperor destroyed the wrong chronicle and witnesses,
              Caliph Osman (Usman) destroyed the wrong versions of the Koran,
              Christian metropolitans burned the wrong books and their owners,
              Christian kings forbade folk traditions,
              the Nazis burned books, and then people ...
              The rulers are always in their own right - this is an obvious conclusion.

              Let the psychiatrist not disturb Fomenko, but write a dissertation on the belief of religious people that prayers can be saved from epidemics. This is such a saving for the budget - no vaccinations are needed.
              1. Pissarro
                Pissarro 24 November 2019 22: 50
                -1
                There was a certain international event of a large scale, such as the invasion of the Mongols. The weak point of your conspiracy theory is that the Chinese emperor, the Shah of Persia, the Arab Caliph, the Turkish sultan, Russian princes, kings of Hungary and Poland, and the Pope of Rome should synchronize their testimonies with the invasion of the horde with the Japanese and other Khmers and Georgians. The event took place to be reflected in sources in dozens of languages ​​on different continents.
                1. Minato2020
                  Minato2020 24 November 2019 23: 29
                  +3
                  Quote: Pissarro
                  There was a certain international event of a large scale, such as the invasion of the Mongols. The weak point of your conspiracy theory is that the Chinese emperor, the Shah of Persia, the Arab Caliph, the Turkish sultan, Russian princes, kings of Hungary and Poland, and the Pope of Rome should synchronize their testimonies with the invasion of the horde with the Japanese and other Khmers and Georgians. The event took place to be reflected in sources in dozens of languages ​​on different continents.


                  I won’t say anything about the Mongolian script XIII (whether it was))), but there were researchers who looked at the chronicles of the Order of the Sword-Bearers (Schwertbrüderorden Order of the Sword Brothers) and compared it with the Russian description of the Battle of Ice, after which doubts arose about the correct interpretation of what happened the battle.

                  Therefore, so that there are no doubters, it is easier to burn written sources of past years.
          2. The comment was deleted.
    2. ver_
      ver_ 24 November 2019 05: 40
      +2
      ... not quite so long ago - the Mongol, feeling his death - went to the steppe, put a pole with a black rag and lay down ... Time and liveliness ended ... Evenks of the deceased were wrapped in hide and * bundle * was placed on a tree .. .
  28. Mcar
    Mcar 22 November 2019 09: 31
    +2
    In reality, the "Mongols", in the original version, without the nasal "n", "mogul" (in India they were called that), comes from the root word "could, can," - "mozh, husband, mighty, mighty, powerful" (he who “can”, “mighty”, hence “mighty”), and the end of the plural “-ola” (for example, “Voguls”).

    He would add, apparently, the words magician, husband, muse, the power of the same exodus as the Mughal. Yes, that's right - whoever can is only a husband. )))
  29. Keyser soze
    Keyser soze 22 November 2019 09: 32
    +2
    I expect from the author and other interesting articles - the influence of the State Department on Tartaria and the nuclear war of the 18th century and the role of the Mongol-Australian Aryans in it.
    1. Corn
      Corn 22 November 2019 11: 21
      -1
      About the nuclear war in the Middle Ages, scientific papers and all kinds of searches are regularly published on this site.
      And the State Department, these are almost the same Masons and Illuminati who have influenced human history at least since the time of Ancient Assyria.
      1. Hantengri
        Hantengri 22 November 2019 11: 43
        +3
        Quote: Corn
        About the nuclear war in the Middle Ages, scientific papers and all kinds of searches are regularly published on this site.

        Link to one, but really scientific work on this topic, is it possible?
    2. parusnik
      parusnik 22 November 2019 17: 31
      +5
      Eugene hi Already not that type, Emelyan Pugachev the last commander of Tartaria ... laughing
      1. Keyser soze
        Keyser soze 22 November 2019 18: 14
        +4
        Emelyan Pugachev the last commander of Tartaria ...


        Alexei, this is of course a masterpiece that you and I are not given to check out ... laughing
        We are from the other house ... drinks
      2. Captain45
        Captain45 24 November 2019 12: 42
        0
        Quote: parusnik
        Eugene hi Already not that type, Emelyan Pugachev the last commander of Tartaria ...

        But did Pugach have the atomic bomb in the cart? lol feel
    3. Minato2020
      Minato2020 23 November 2019 21: 17
      +1
      Quote: Keyser Soze
      I expect from the author and other interesting articles - the influence of the State Department on Tartaria and the nuclear war of the 18th century and the role of the Mongol-Australian Aryans in it.


      The State Department appeared much later than Tartaria and, by definition, cannot influence the latter (Tartaria).
      A nuclear explosion over Moscow in 1812. The Mongols were not seen there, but the descendants of the Aryans were on both sides.

      https://wod-1958.livejournal.com/3675592.html
      1. Captain45
        Captain45 24 November 2019 12: 45
        +2
        Quote: Minato2020
        A nuclear explosion over Moscow in 1812. The Mongols were not seen there, but the descendants of the Aryans were on both sides.

        Napoleon? belay Is that from the chamber where the prosecutor is? laughing And then Kutuzov from which chamber? belay
  30. The comment was deleted.
  31. Gunxnumx
    Gunxnumx 22 November 2019 10: 17
    +3
    "History is politics overturned into the past." To whose mill is Comrade Samsonov pouring water?
    But seriously, I have heard such an opinion, which can neither be proved nor refuted, because there are no reliable documents (Chinese, Old Russian, Persian, etc.cannot be considered completely objective, since they were, at one time, "the loser "side). That Genghis Khan, when he was proclaimed the khan of the union of the Turkic tribes that inhabited the territory of modern Mongolia at that time (approximately), gave his people the name "Mongols". Those. "Mongols" is a political name that eventually became an ethnonym for completely different people (Khalkha and Oirats). I repeat, I am not saying this. The author presents the material as facts (and conclusions) that should be believed. There was such an author, Murat Aji. So he wrote (no less interesting and exciting than Samsonov) similarly about the Turks. Very emotional, but without any normal justification.
  32. Laurus
    Laurus 22 November 2019 10: 25
    0
    An ambiguous article. On the one hand, the official version of the Mongols from Mongolia who conquered the galaxy is absurd and is not confirmed by anything other than the tales of historians no earlier than the XNUMXth century. On the other hand, fairy tales about Scythians-Rus are no less absurd. I am sure everything is much simpler. There was the Golden Horde (without any Mongols), the state of the Turkic peoples who always lived nearby and still live.
    1. Slavutich
      Slavutich 22 November 2019 14: 45
      +4
      An interesting statement of the question, neither peace, nor war.
  33. swyatoslav
    swyatoslav 22 November 2019 10: 28
    +5
    "Well, our ancestors could not be so smart and strong!" - something like this can be understood as some comments to the article.
    Nomadic shepherds could create a Great Empire, impoverished Europeans, too, bare-footed Romans and Greeks - were simply obliged, and our ancestors, by no means ... I call it historical masochism.
    1. Zvonarev
      Zvonarev 22 November 2019 11: 42
      +1
      And if you see your ancestors in all world events, then this is called paranoia. And why did you decide that our ancestors could not create an empire even without Russoarii (the name is another!)? Excuse me, where do we live? In all respects, in the largest, after the Russian, empire. Yes, and your namesake is also the empire of the rules, at that time one of the greatest in Europe. There were then two of them, Kievan Rus and Byzantium. Well, do not count the decaying scum in France and Germany as empires ...
      1. swyatoslav
        swyatoslav 22 November 2019 16: 00
        0
        I meant the Ancient World, of course. Nobody has canceled the Russian empire either - this is understandable, but this is already our time.
        And we live in a federal state, by the way, and not in an empire.
        And do not ascribe to me what I did not say! If you haven’t noticed yet, these are comments on an article about a specific historical period, and not about
        all world events
        .
        And what does it mean without Russoarii? Our ancestors are Russes (simplified, of course) - part of the Aryan peoples. Why do you separate them? And if you do not like the term Russoarii, replace it with any other one you like. I prefer to call them our ancestors.
        And the fact that our ancestors come from Altai (haplogroup R / R1a / R1b) is a scientific and proven fact.
        And their migrations across Eurasia are dated and scheduled taking into account the latest DNA genealogy data. The same conclusions and dates, in particular on the Apennine Peninsula, are presented in the most prestigious scientific journal Science (https://news.mail.ru/society/39406695/).
        That is, the author has every reason to propose such a version of events. In any case, this does not contradict the data of DNA genealogy.
        1. Hantengri
          Hantengri 22 November 2019 18: 21
          +1
          Quote: swyatoslav
          DNA genealogy

          There is no such science. There is population genetics. The works of the biochemist Klesov, this science were sent to catch butterflies in the village, because of their unscience, and for a long time. After that, Klesov was offended and created DNA genialogy, as well as Filkin Academy of Sciences, in which he was embraced by the main academician and Great Guru of modern Russian Nazism.
          1. swyatoslav
            swyatoslav 23 November 2019 10: 53
            +4
            The only country still trying to deny DNA genealogy is Russia. Because academics, historians and other interested parties have made a name for themselves on the postulates that are in great question.
            In the same way, in due time, in the USSR they denied cybernetics and genetics - they recognized them as pseudosciences. And what is the result?
            The whole world not only recognizes, but actively uses the data of DNA genealogy and develops it.
            But you, of course, have the right to an opinion that is different from the opinion of the entire scientific world community!
            I in the previous answer offered a link - https://ria.ru/20191108/1560713520.html there are just Western scientists who confirm the conclusions (on dating and migration) A. Klesov
            But you don't have to believe them either. It is enough just to keep repeating - "I do not believe".
            And when him in
            Guru of Russian Nazis
            recorded, and most importantly who? He lives and works in the USA. The overwhelming volume of his research DOES NOT APPLY to Russia, but with all this, do you blame him for Nazism? Is there a reason or just do you think so?
            It’s not good to insult an absent person so “behind the back”, all the more without good reason.
            1. Hantengri
              Hantengri 23 November 2019 11: 33
              -5
              Quote: swyatoslav
              The only country still trying to deny DNA genealogy is Russia. Because academics, historians and other interested parties have made a name for themselves on the postulates that are in great question.

              Did Klesov tell you this?
              Quote: swyatoslav
              I in the previous answer offered a link - https://ria.ru/20191108/1560713520.html there are just Western scientists who confirm the conclusions (on dating and migration) A. Klesov

              Let me tell you the secret of these "wonderful" coincidences: A.A. Klesov. takes research in the field of population genetics and, without any hesitation, having spiced it up with a bit of Russian Nazism, passes it off as his own. For this they do not like him.
              1. swyatoslav
                swyatoslav 24 November 2019 17: 43
                +2
                Did Klesov tell you this?
                No, Klesov didn’t tell me anything - he’s not personally acquainted. Yes, this is not required.
                Klesov A.A. takes research in population genetics and ...
                - This simple formula of your charge reminded you of an old joke about Vovochka and physics.
                I won't retell the whole story, just the result: "........ Little Johnny again pulls his hand.
                - Calm down, boy, so you’ll reduce all physics to me! ”- conclusion: no need to oversimplify!
                And I also remembered how in Soviet times everyone here forbade and blamed the cursed imperialists, misleading (some) gullible Soviet citizens, with all sorts of pseudoscientific geneticists, cybernetics, and other miracles (unconditionally backward capitalist) science.
                1. Hantengri
                  Hantengri 24 November 2019 20: 29
                  -1
                  Quote: swyatoslav
                  - This simple formula of your charge reminded you of an old joke about Vovochka and physics.

                  The believer’s brain is unbreakable! Good luck in creating your idol.
                  1. swyatoslav
                    swyatoslav 25 November 2019 11: 23
                    0
                    Quote: HanTengri
                    The believer’s brain is unbreakable!

                    - could not resist self-criticism? I did not expect from you ...
                    The difference between the supporters of the official and alternative versions of the story is simple: the officers are intolerant and immune to opinions other than their own; alternative specialists - on the contrary, are ready to discuss and study everything new.
                    It is the officials who pounce on everything (and everyone) that (who) does not correspond to their ideas about history. That's who creates an idol.
                    Look back at yourself more often, instead of judging others. All the best!
                2. Foul skeptic
                  Foul skeptic 25 November 2019 12: 43
                  -2
                  In the same way, cybernetics and genetics were denied in the USSR in due time.

                  no one has ever denied either genetics or cybernetics.
    2. Pissarro
      Pissarro 24 November 2019 15: 44
      -2
      Actually, we live in the largest country in the world. So, about what our ancestors created
      1. swyatoslav
        swyatoslav 24 November 2019 17: 50
        +3
        I agree.
        Does this mean, in your opinion, that this should be "enough" for us and the entire ancient history of our ancestors should not be remembered or investigated?
        For example, Academician Likhachev DS said: "Why do we need some crude forgeries like the Veles Book? Does culture need such kind of" additions "? Why is our writing built to the 199196st century AD? and what we have in the first seven centuries of its existence from the 43th to the XNUMXth century is grandiose! " - https://www.litmir.me/br/?b=XNUMX&p=XNUMX
  34. alexey alexeyev_2
    alexey alexeyev_2 22 November 2019 10: 43
    -6
    Bredyatina, of course. But the "luminaries" like shpakovsky and vashchenko, constantly published here, are not like that. And no one is surprised .. Probably it's time to introduce censorship on VO ..
  35. kalibr
    kalibr 22 November 2019 11: 05
    -2
    Quote: Zvonarev
    They, too ... hmm ... became participants in the anti-Russian conspiracy? Moreover, in order not to be trifled and subsequently not to be distracted by trifles, right from the 13th century? Well, then to just rest on our laurels and toss firewood? The Vatican, perhaps, could have acted in such a way to the peak of Orthodoxy as a way to catholicize Russian lands. But the Chinese and the Arabs with the Persians?

    Everything, everything without exception, the whole world consists in mutual correspondence and forges documents with the sole purpose of belittling the great Russian superethnos. To distort everything, to deceive everyone, is the goal of everyone around us. And we, the patience, believe everything, for our main feature is trustfulness on the verge of stupidity and sacrifice on the verge of madness.
    1. Zvonarev
      Zvonarev 22 November 2019 12: 06
      +5
      To some extent, this is true after the 16th century (not in terms of falsification of documents, but simply coverage of events, accents, and silence). It's just that when you live in a small, cozy Europe and suddenly a monster appears in the east (in terms of size, of course), the trousers sharply become wet and you need to urgently do something, somehow restore your peace of mind.
    2. Minato2020
      Minato2020 23 November 2019 21: 27
      +1
      Quote: kalibr
      Everything, everything without exception, the whole world consists in mutual correspondence and forges documents with the sole purpose of belittling the great Russian superethnos. To distort everything, to deceive everyone, is the goal of everyone around us. And we, the patience, believe everything, for our main feature is trustfulness on the verge of stupidity and sacrifice on the verge of madness.


      Not the whole world polls forged documents and is in correspondence, but the Vatican began, which consisted of correspondence with Catholic figures and Jesuits and the Vatican helped falsify documents in order to belittle the great Russian Ethnos. Now the US State Department is doing this, using modern technology.
  36. kalibr
    kalibr 22 November 2019 11: 06
    0
    Quote: Aleksey Alekseev_2
    Shpakovsky and Vashchenko, and not so.

    And what is it? Can you give examples? And who will be the censor? Aren't you?
    1. alexey alexeyev_2
      alexey alexeyev_2 23 November 2019 00: 25
      0
      Well, if you are a regular visitor to VO, you should have noticed that everything they write is in flagrant contradiction with the development of the material culture of people .. However, all of our official historiography suffers from this .. And as for censorship, well got excited. Although self-censorship for many will not superfluous. I actually for the pluralism of opinions ..
  37. kalibr
    kalibr 22 November 2019 11: 07
    0
    Quote: Laurel
    not confirmed by anything other than the tales of historians no earlier than the XNUMXth century

    Really? Well, you are an expert!
  38. kalibr
    kalibr 22 November 2019 11: 10
    -1
    Quote: Boris55
    The Chinese wall is great and you can find any section of it if you wish

    And yours ... Friends from China just arrived, brought a photo as a gift.


    So the battlements are looking north!
    1. Boris55
      Boris55 22 November 2019 12: 43
      0
      Quote: kalibr
      So the battlements are looking north!

      Which ones laughing :
      - those in the foreground,
      - those on the left,
      - those on the right or
      - those in the distance?
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 22 November 2019 13: 10
        +1
        Those facing north!
    2. 1970mk
      1970mk 22 November 2019 17: 54
      +1
      What prongs? Which North? When was THAT done? To help you with "prongs to the north" - apart from this small section of the "Great Wall of China" (which is shown to everyone), there is really nothing from this "Wall"! And THIS was built after the "CPC came to Vlast" ... How was it built? The Chinese say THIS is reconstruction .... At the same time, no one (and the Chinese themselves) know by what method or by what source they created this remake! Moral - what are you talking about? Ask the Chinese why they built a wall with teeth in the other direction))) This will drive them into another stupor))
      By the way, "if you wish, you can find any segment of it" .. YOU BURN! You can detail what really is from the "Great Wall of China" and when what you say is created ...
      This is all "Novgorod" a fortress))) Although there is nothing in Novgorod at all! Just old buildings NO! Kremlin made of red brick)))) The only antiquity in Lord Veliky Novgorod is on the other bank of the Volkhov, the ruins of a 13th century chapel.
      With the Chinese type of the Great Wall is still more and more neglected))
      1. Yaik Cossack
        Yaik Cossack 22 November 2019 20: 07
        +1
        Ugums, and as St. Nosovsky teaches, St. Sophia Cathedral was built by Princess Sophia and made of concrete
  39. with a bomb
    with a bomb 22 November 2019 12: 26
    +2
    there’s no reason to bother with fantasies of millers and slots
    1. Boris55
      Boris55 22 November 2019 12: 47
      +2
      Quote: with the bomb
      there’s no reason to bother with fantasies of millers and slots

      Can you imagine how many people defended their dissertations in their fairy tales, how many received honorary titles, etc.? They never admit that they have spent their whole lives spreading lies.
  40. Vladimir61
    Vladimir61 22 November 2019 12: 44
    0
    Interesting to read. How close to the historical material is hard to say, as is the fact that some arguments are hard to deny.
    Attempts to understand historical material since the inception of civilization have been undertaken at all times, but no one has ever achieved the goal. Often, even today, historians argue about what really happened 100-200 years ago. Since the emergence of the state as a socio-political structure of society, history began to reflect not facts, but political expediency.
    Cities burned, and along with them, ancient historical evidence burned down, political orientation, religion, morality and morality changed, - documentary evidence of the previous heritage was destroyed. From the surviving documents, legends and other oral works, the first historians "glued" their "new" history, which they subsequently rewrote and supplemented.
    You can even challenge the results of the DNA test, and even any historical legacy is even more so!
  41. kalibr
    kalibr 22 November 2019 13: 08
    +1
    Quote: Boris55
    how many people defended their dissertations in their tales, how many received honorary titles, etc.? They never admit that they have spent their whole lives spreading lies.

    What nonsense! There is nothing more pleasant than exposing colleagues and poking your nose in the city ... Read my article about the "Fiuma incident". People are specifically engaged in looking for errors in dating, incorrect attribution of artifacts to cultures. You just have no idea about the work of historians. How is Pushkin doing? "And she feeds on fables ..." So you, too, are sitting on the same ration.
    1. Boris55
      Boris55 23 November 2019 09: 11
      +3
      Quote: kalibr
      What a stupid thing! There is nothing nicer than exposing colleagues and poking your nose in g ...

      "The cuckoo praises the rooster for praising that cuckoo"

      On trifles - yes. But on a large scale - not when! Not a single historian will ever go beyond the Biblical concept of the World, otherwise he will immediately cease to be such. Over the 500 years, you have composed so many tales that you yourself do not know where the truth is, but where is the fiction.
      1. Minato2020
        Minato2020 23 November 2019 21: 38
        +3
        Quote: Boris55
        ... Not a single historian will ever go beyond the Biblical concept of the World, otherwise he will immediately cease to be such. For 500 years, you have written so many tales that you yourself don’t know where the truth is, but where is the fiction.


        Why go beyond the biblical view of the world? There is a Bible, everything described is true there.

        David Naydis. Bible truth. https://www.proza.ru/2010/09/08/270
  42. kalibr
    kalibr 22 November 2019 13: 13
    -2
    Quote: Zvonarev
    the pantaloons are suddenly getting wet and something urgently needs to be done, somehow to restore peace of mind.

    And among the Chinese, Indians, Persians, Arabs ... everything has been described since the 16th century from the appearance of the Russian state. All right! And in 1780 there was an atomic war. And Ketsalkoatl is Cortes and Ermak at the same time ... Everything is so, I agree!
    1. Zvonarev
      Zvonarev 22 November 2019 14: 02
      +3
      Dear Vyacheslav!
      Not for the first time I have already noticed that the art of reading and extracting information from what has been written is now entering some kind of Tmutarakan. Is that what your comment is about? For me, this is either nonsense, or the answer is not for me. I have already expressed doubt above that Arab, Chinese and other historians "invented" the invasion. They were in no way involved in the events of the 16th century. Well, let the atomic war with Yermak be on your conscience.
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 22 November 2019 18: 10
        -3
        It’s impossible to joke, right?
    2. Yaik Cossack
      Yaik Cossack 22 November 2019 20: 04
      -3
      I am very sorry, but all three of them are also Columbus !!! They have a common letter K
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 24 November 2019 08: 48
        -1
        "I am very sorry, but all these three are also Columbus !!! They have a common letter K." - yes it is true, forgot about him!
  43. kalibr
    kalibr 22 November 2019 13: 20
    -3
    Quote: Alexander Suvorov
    Along the way, in Durk open day.

    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  44. Operator
    Operator 22 November 2019 13: 25
    +6
    The author is the Black Sea arias in the 2nd millennium BC. in their chariots they did reach Manchuria, but then they were assimilated (due to their small numbers) by the local Northern Semites (Central Asians), Ugrofinns (Altai), and the Manchus themselves. Then the Central Asians and Altai were once again assimilated by the Manchus (Huns), after which they became Türks (Tatars in Russian).

    In the first millennium BC from Asia, the Sanskrit-speaking Mestizo-Central Asians called Scythians and Sarmatians invaded as Alaverdi from Asia; in the first millennium AD - Türkic-speaking mestizos Hunnu, Avars, Bulgars, Pechenegs, Khazars and Polovtsy, as well as Finno-speaking Ugrians; at the beginning of the second millennium AD - mono-ethnic Mongols, together with the Metis-Tatars who were subject to them.

    Actually, the Mongol among the migrants was even smaller than the Black Sea Aryans who migrated to Asia, so the Mongols in Europe were assimilated by the Tatars.

    In connection with these circumstances, it is completely unnatural to put on one board the mono-ethnic relatives of the Black Sea Aryans (Sanskrit-speaking Slavs) and their Asian mixed breeds (Türkic-speaking Avars, Bulgars, Pechenegs, Khazars and Polovtsy, in which the proportion of descendants of the Aryans did not exceed 20%).
    1. Captain45
      Captain45 24 November 2019 12: 54
      0
      Quote: Operator
      ugrofinnymi (Altai)

      Why Altaians? What does the Altaians have to the Ugrofinns or, more correctly, the Finno-Ugric language group - the Mordvins of the Volga region, the Ugrians (Hungarians) -Europeans and Finns (Scandinavians). The three nationalities I have listed have one thing in common - language, and this is a well-known fact. But the language of the Altai people, and by the way is it a single people, is similar to the language of the Ugro-Finns?
      1. Operator
        Operator 24 November 2019 13: 13
        +9
        The descendants of the Ugro-Finns (carriers of the haplogroup N1c1) in the Altaians account for 40%, while the descendants of the Aryans (R1a) make up about 20%, the descendants of the Mongols (C2) - about 10%.

        Among Finns, carriers of N1c1 make up 60% (the rest are mainly carriers of the North Illyrian I1), Baltic states and Mordovians - 40% (with 40% of carriers R1a).

        And carriers of N95c1 reach a mono-ethnic level in 1% only in Yakuts, apparently laughing
  45. Sertorius
    Sertorius 22 November 2019 13: 59
    0
    This is complete nonsense.
    This is the only quote from this opus with which I completely agree.
  46. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 22 November 2019 14: 05
    +4
    This is complete nonsense.

    A wonderful phrase, the only thing in this article deserves attention. It should be at the beginning and end of each paragraph, so successful. How did the author pass this find?
    1. Zvonarev
      Zvonarev 22 November 2019 14: 28
      -2
      Completely laid out during the writing process?
  47. Operator
    Operator 22 November 2019 15: 09
    +7
    Quote: Lannan Shi
    This method of launching arrows during the battle does not allow you to precisely aim, so 9/10 arrows fall in vain, and even the small amount that reaches the enemy already loses almost all its strength when lifting, which tells the bow bowstring

    This is not a good example - the French cavalry in 1812 was used in the form of frontal ranks, so to get into it with mounted archery, and even in the movement of both the French and the Bashkirs, it was necessary to precisely aim for what the irregular Bashkir units (essentially shepherds with experience of persistent shooting at wolves point-blank) did not know how to use the word at all.

    In the 13th century, the Mongols trained the Tatars subject to them to the level of regular military units with training in mounted shooting, plus Russian cavalry was then used as cavalry lava, which was hard to miss.

    By the way - an arrow, fired at an angle of 45 degrees to the horizon, at the moment it hits the target has almost the same energy (with a loss of about 10% of friction against the air), as it did when the bow was torn off.
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 22 November 2019 18: 14
      -3
      Andrew! An interesting study was published in England: "The History of the Nomads". Its author traveled to Hungary and talked with local equestrian archers, was in Mongolia, watched how they shoot and ... that's exactly how it is!
      1. Operator
        Operator 22 November 2019 18: 17
        +9
        I myself went to the MPR several times myself - on business trips, of course.
        1. tanit
          tanit 22 November 2019 18: 44
          -6
          Vyacheslav Olegovich, can you tell your opponents that there is also Inner Mongolia ... It’s just curious what kind of "theories" they will fail under this "revelation".
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 24 November 2019 08: 44
            -2
            Why prompt something? "There is no forest in Mongolia, so there are no bows either." So in England there is no yew either, so it was imported from Spain for bows. By the way, there are two fish on the flag of Mongolia. It is clear that the symbol. But is there any fish? Is there a steppe all around? But there is, and a lot, so there was fish glue for bows. But ... it's useless to point this out ...
  48. Region-25.rus
    Region-25.rus 22 November 2019 15: 28
    +2
    Is Samsonov a pseudonym for Fomenko? Or Nosovsky?
  49. Andrey VOV
    Andrey VOV 22 November 2019 17: 05
    0
    Immediately identified the author, Samsonov))))
  50. 1970mk
    1970mk 22 November 2019 17: 33
    0
    Again flooded))) "clans of pagan Rus", etc. Articles as anecdote)))
    But in general, how strange is that who is IT on this serious (or it is not serious) allows the press such? Fantasy military practice now practiced? Or is it for the money?
    1. tanit
      tanit 22 November 2019 18: 04
      -2
      Ahem ... So this, Samsonov was kind of like the head of the historical department at VO. Stormy comments - higher payment?)))
      1. 1970mk
        1970mk 22 November 2019 18: 10
        0
        What do you mean)))) I somehow was not interested)))) Well, now we know, refers to this publication as a "yellow press"))
        1. tanit
          tanit 22 November 2019 18: 14
          -3
          And here you are in vain. Excellent articles by historians. Both graduates and "amateurs". By the way, in defense of Samsonov, he does not jam with bunnies.
          1. 1970mk
            1970mk 22 November 2019 18: 16
            -1
            In defense? His constant stories about ancient Russians ...... overshadow the tales of Ukrainians about ancient stolen ... He writes fantasy .... There are no sources ... it scratches the prophetic dreams ...
            1. tanit
              tanit 22 November 2019 18: 34
              -3
              In defense. He does not use administrative resources in terms of "punishing those who disagree." Um ... I guess ...
              1. 1970mk
                1970mk 22 November 2019 18: 37
                -2
                He uses the administrative resource))))) By publishing this Achinea unproven ... based on, apparently, his prophetic dreams)))