Military Review

Battle of Voronezh

61
Battle of Voronezh

Red cavalry in attack. 1919 (documentary frame)


Smoot. 1919 year. In the new strategic offensive of the Red Southern Front, the main blow from two sides was delivered to the Volunteer Army, which advanced to Orel. The May-Mayevsky strike force advanced very much, the flanks were open. The Red Command planned to defeat the May-Mayevsky strike forces, separate the Volunteer and Don Don armies, and beat them separately.

General situation at the front


The total number of white troops in the Moscow direction was about 100 thousand bayonets and sabers, about 300 guns, over 800 machine guns, 22 armored trains and 12 tanks. The troops of the Kiev region under the command of General Dragomirov were located in front of Kiev and along the Desna River near Chernigov. The volunteer army of General May-Mayevsky (over 22 thousand people) held positions from Chernigov to Orel and to the Don (near Zadonsk). During the Moscow campaign, the main forces of May-Mayevsky achieved maximum success and reached the line Khutor-Mikhailovsky, Sevsk, Dmitrovsk, st. Eropkino, Livny, Borki, r. Ikorets. From October 13 to October 20, 1919, White occupied the Orel. The Don army of General Sidorin (50 thousand people) was located from Zadonsk to the mouth of Ilovli; The Caucasian army of General Wrangel (about 15 thousand people) - in the Tsaritsyn area, having part of the forces against Astrakhan, on both banks of the Volga; The detachment of General Drazenko from the Northern Caucasus troops is against Astrakhan from the south and southwest.

The armed forces of the South of Russia were bloodless and exhausted by a strategic offensive in the Moscow direction. Unlike the Reds, the White Command was unable to provide massive support to the people. The social base was weak, and was already exhausted by previous mobilization. Many anti-Bolshevik forces and groups of the population, after eliminating the direct threat, were occupied by internal swarms and conflicts, opposed the White movement. The existing reserves, new formed units and even part of the forces from the main front were diverted to internal fronts and directions. In particular, to pacify the uprising of Makhno and other chieftains who set fire to large areas in New Russia and Little Russia. Part of the forces of the Kiev region fought against the Petliurists and rebels. The troops of the North Caucasus were engaged in the struggle against the highlanders, the forces of the North Caucasus Emirate, etc.

In early October 1919, the Soviet armies of the South and Southeast Front were put in order and replenished. The southern front under the leadership of Egorov totaled about 115 thousand bayonets and sabers, 500 guns, over 1,9 thousand machine guns. On the right flank was the 12-I Red Army - on both sides of the Dnieper from Mazyr, skirting Zhytomyr, and along the Desna to Chernigov to Sosnitsa. Further, the positions of the 14 Army were located - from Sosnitsy to Krom (in the Orel region). 13-I army occupied the defense from Krom to r. Don (near Zadonsk, near Voronezh). 8-I army was located between Zadonsk and Bobrov. The Voronezh direction also housed the 1th horse corps of Budenny (in November it was deployed to the 1th horse army). Further from Voronezh to Astrakhan, the troops of the Southeast Front were located under the command of Shorin. Only about 50 thousand people. 9-I army stood from Bobrov to the mouth of the Bear; 10-I acted in the Tsaritsyno direction; 11-I was located in the Astrakhan region, with operational directions up the Volga against Tsaritsyn, south and east along the Caspian Sea against the North Caucasus and Guryev (Ural White Cossacks).

South Front Offensive Plan


The forces of the Reds on the South and Southeast Front were constantly growing. In connection with the improvement of the situation on other fronts, in October - November 1919 several more divisions were transferred here. The Soviet command formed two strong strike groups in the Oryol and Voronezh directions. Moreover, in the Oryol-Kursk direction, the Reds managed to achieve 2,5-fold superiority in bayonets, and in the Voronezh-Kastornensky direction - 10-fold.

After the failure of the August offensive (), the Soviet command changed the direction of the main attacks. The troops of the 13 and 14 armies were to advance in the Oryol direction: in all 10 divisions, 2 separate brigades, 4 cavalry brigades and 2 separate groups (62 thousand bayonets and sabers, over 170 guns and over 1110 machine guns. The main role in the offensive was to be played by the strike group under the command of the commander of the Latvian division A. A. Martusevich, at first it was part of the 13-th Red Army, then the 14-th Army. The group included: Latvian Rifle Division (10 regiments and 40 guns), Separate cavalry brigade of the Red Cossacks (soon deployed to the division), Separate rifle brigade. The group consisted of about 20 thousand fighters, over 50 guns and more than 100 machine guns. The idea of ​​the Red Command was to force Martusevich’s group to strike at the flank and rear of the units of the 1 Army Corps Kutepov advancing on Moscow (the main striking force of the Volunteer Army, forcing White to stop the attack and then encircle and destroy the enemy. The attack group was to strike from the Krom region in the direction of the Kursk-Oryol railway.The 55th Infantry Division of the 13th Army set the task to defeat the enemy advancing on Orel.

The Red Command formed the second strike group east of Voronezh. The strike group included the 42th Infantry Division of Spider, the cavalry brigade of the 13th Army, Budenny Corps, the 12th Infantry Division of the Roar of the 8th Army. The group was to strike at the right flank of the Moscow group of the Denikin’s army, defeat the enemy in the Voronezh direction (the 4th Don and 3th Kuban corps of Mamontov and Shkuro acted here), liberate Voronezh and strike the enemy’s Orel group in the direction of Kastornaya. Also, the defeat of the White Guards near Voronezh created the conditions for the access of the 8 Red Army to the Don.

Thus, in the new strategic offensive of the Southern Front, the main blow from two sides was delivered to the Volunteer Army, which advanced to Orel. The May-Mayevsky strike force advanced very much, the flanks were open. The white command did not have the strength to simultaneously advance and firmly secure the occupied territories. Therefore, the Reds planned to defeat the May-Mayevsky strike forces, separate the Volunteer and Don Don armies, and beat them separately.

White Command Plans


The White Command had information about the concentration of enemy forces for a counterattack. However, there were no reserves to parry these blows. One could only regroup the available forces. The onset of the Oryol group from the beginning of concern did not arouse. Strong Drozdov and Kornilov divisions operated here. Kutepov received an order from General Mai-Mayevsky without stopping to step on the Eagle and not pay attention to the flanks. As the commander of the 1 Army Corps noted: “I’ll take the Eagle, but my front will advance like a sugar head. When the enemy strike group goes on the offensive and hits my flanks, I will not be able to maneuver. Nevertheless, I was ordered to take the Eagle! ”

The threat on the Voronezh direction to the left flank of the Don army was considered more serious. Therefore, Denikin, not stopping the offensive on the Bryansk-Orel-Yelets line, ordered the Don Army to confine himself to defense in the center and on the right flank, and focus on his left flank, against Liska and Voronezh. The corps of General Shkuro, located in the Voronezh region, was transferred to the Don Army.

Thus, the implementation of the plans of the red and white command led to stubborn oncoming battles, which resulted in a general battle. The battle began, which decided the outcome of the entire campaign.

Subsequently, the VSYUR command tried to form a strong strike force in the Voronezh direction in order to break up the strike group of the 8 Red Army and the Budenny corps, which again made it possible to intercept the strategic initiative and resume the offensive. It was possible to collect a strong shock fist only by weakening the Don and Caucasian armies. Here again, the fact of the lack of unity of the white command and anti-Bolshevik forces played a negative role. Denikin demanded that the left flank of the Don army be strengthened by weakening the center and the right wing. These requirements crashed on the passive resistance of the Don command, which sought to cover the Don region as much as possible. As Denikin recalled, the command of the Don Army “was heavily pressed by the psychology of the Don Cossack mass, gravitating toward their own huts.” As a result, the Don command allocated only the 4 corps of General Mamontov, which was half-decomposed and weakened after the raid on the red rear, in which 3,5 thousand sabers remained. At the end of November, after the insistent demands of the Denikin Headquarters, the 4 Corps received replenishment, the Plastun brigade and the weak cavalry division were included in the strike group. The commander of the Don army, General Sidorin did not want to weaken the defense of the Don region.

A similar situation was with the command of the Caucasian Army. In October 1919, Wrangel inflicted heavy blows on the southern and northern groups of the enemy in the Tsaritsyn area. After that, the commander informed Stavka that this success was gained “at the cost of completely bleeding the army and the last strain of the moral strength of those chiefs who had not yet gone out of action”. On October 29, Denikin’s headquarters invited the command of the Caucasian Army to allocate forces for the strike group in the center or to launch its own offensive operation in the north to divert the forces of the Red Army and reduce the front of the Don Army, allowing it to focus on its left wing. General Wrangel replied that the development of the operation of the Caucasian army to the north is impossible "in the absence of railways and lack of water communication." And the transfer of troops to the west will not change the general situation due to the small number of horse units and will lead to the loss of Tsaritsyn. Denikin removed from the Caucasus Army only the 2th Kuban Corps.

Voronezh-Kastornenskaya operation


October 13 1919 began the offensive of the Voronezh Red Group. The horse-drawn corps of Budenny, reinforced by the infantry division of the 8 army, struck the 4-th Don corps of Mamontov near the village of Moskovskoye. Until October 19 there were stubborn battles, settlements several times passed from hand to hand. On October 19, the Kuban and Don Shkuro and Mamantova attacked at the junction of the 4 and 6 cavalry divisions in the direction of the village of Khrenovoye. Budyonny’s corps part of the forces went on the defensive and at the same time launched strong counterattacks on the enemy from the north and south. Belokazaki were driven back to the south and east, to Voronezh.

On October 23, the Budenovites, with the support of the rifle divisions of the 8 Army, launched an assault on Voronezh. On October 24, the Reds liberated the city from the Shkuro troops, who retreated to the right bank of the Don. Having crossed the Don, Budyonny fought out to Nizhnedevitsk, threatening Kastornaya and the rear of the 1 Army Corps of the Volunteer Army. At the same time, units of the 8 Army developed an offensive to the south, occupied Liski Station, and drove the 3 Army Don beyond.

On October 31 the Budyonny corps was reinforced by the reserve 11 Cavalry Division. On November 2, the Mamontov donors launched a counterattack in the Klevna-Shumeyka region, but suffered heavy losses and retreated. On November 3 the 42 I rifle division of the 13 Army occupied Livny and began to advance towards Kastorny. On November 5 Budyonny’s corps, troops of the 8 and 13 armies reached the Kastornaya station. Here the Reds met strong resistance from the cavalry of Shkuro and the Markov Regiment. From November 5 to November 15 there were battles for Kastornaya. The 42 I rifle and 11 I cavalry divisions advanced from the north, 12 I rifle and 6 I cavalry divisions from the south, 4 I cavalry division from the east. As a result, the Reds took Kastornaya. By the end of November 16, White was defeated. On November 19 Budyonny’s corps was deployed to the 1-th Cavalry Army.

At the same time there were stubborn counter fights with varying success on the front of the Don Army. The Cossacks defeated the left flank of the 8-th Red Army near Bobrov and Talova and units of the 9-th Soviet Army on the shore of Khopr. Donets again occupied Liski, Talovaya, Novokhopyorsk and Bobrov. There was a threat that White would again occupy Voronezh. However, in the end, the Don Army withdrew on the right flank beyond the Don and the center behind Khoper, holding on to these rivers and on the Liski-Uryupino line.

Thus, the Voronezh group advanced 250 km, liberated Voronezh, inflicted a heavy defeat on the main forces of the white cavalry, the left flank of the Don Army and posed a threat to the flank and rear of the Volunteer Army, contributing to the victory of the Red Army in the Oryol-Kromsky battle.


Source: https://bigenc.ru


To be continued ...
Author:
Articles from this series:
Smoot. 1919 year

How the British created the Armed Forces of the South of Russia
How to restore Soviet power in Ukraine
How Petliurists led Little Russia to a complete catastrophe
How defeated Petliurism
Give the boundaries of 1772 of the year!
Battle for the North Caucasus. How to suppress the Terek Uprising
Battle for the North Caucasus. CH 2. December battle
Battle for the North Caucasus. CH 3. The January accident of the 11 Army
Battle for the North Caucasus. CH 4. How the 11 army died
Battle for the North Caucasus. CH 5. Capture of Kizlyar and the Terrible
Battle for the North Caucasus. CH 6. Furious assault of Vladikavkaz
How Georgia tried to seize Sochi
How the Whites crushed the Georgian invaders
The war of February and October as a confrontation between two civilization projects
How did the "Flight to the Volga"
How Kolchak's army broke through to the Volga
Catastrophe of the Don Cossacks
Verkhniyon uprising
How "Great Finland" planned to seize Petrograd
"All to fight with Kolchak!"
Frunze. Red Napoleon
The missed opportunities of the army of Kolchak
May offensive of the Northern Corps
How white broke through to Petrograd
Battle for the South of Russia
Strategic change on the southern front. Manych operation
Crimea on fire Russian distemper
Crimea in 1918-1919. Intervents, local authorities and whites
How did the uprising of ataman Grigoriev
Nikifor Grigoriev, "ataman of the rebel forces of Kherson region, Zaporizhia and Tavria"
Odessa operation ataman Grigoriev
Uprising in the Ukraine. How failed the “Blitzkrieg” of Grigorievka
Ufa operation. How were defeated the best parts of the army of Kolchak
Moscow campaign army Denikin
"All to fight with Denikin!"
Battle of the Urals
The defeat of the Siberian army. How the Red Army liberated Perm and Yekaterinburg
The defeat of Kolchak in the Chelyabinsk battle
August Counterattack of the Southern Front
The battle for Siberia. Recent operations Kolchak
Pyrrhic victory of the Kolchak armies on Tobol
Operation "White Sword". Beat at the heart of the revolution
"Do not give up Petrograd!"
General battle for Russia
Avalov Army Campaign in Riga
The defeat of the Kolchak armies in the second battle on Tobol
Victories of Denikin’s army in New Russia and Little Russia
White Movement Top
Recent major victories of Denikin
Why did the White Army lose?
Makhno's blow to Denikin
The fall of white Omsk. Great Siberian Ice Camp
Siberian exodus
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  1. Slavutich
    Slavutich 20 November 2019 06: 19 New
    +1
    Military art does not age, everything is like in antiquity: flanking coverage, concentration of forces in the main directions.
    1. Alexander Suvorov
      Alexander Suvorov 20 November 2019 08: 23 New
      +7
      Military art, of course, is good, but when you have the rear to hell, then no military art will help.
      The armed forces of the South of Russia were bloodless and exhausted by a strategic offensive in the Moscow direction. Unlike the Reds, the White Command was unable to provide massive support to the people. The social base was weak, and was already exhausted by previous mobilization.
      Actually that’s all said. White could be three times the geniuses of strategy and tactics, but still would have lost, because in order to conduct successful hostilities it is necessary to have a strong rear base, which they did not have and could not have. And then, exactly the same former tsarist officers fought against the white officers, only the Reds, who were not inferior to the White either in courage or in tactics.
      So the outcome of the rout of white is quite logical!
      1. SERGEY SERGEEVICS
        SERGEY SERGEEVICS 20 November 2019 10: 32 New
        -12
        White could be three times the geniuses of strategy and tactics, but they would still lose,
        They were heroes and strategists. But the betrayal of some personalities took their toll and played not for the better.
        in order to conduct successful hostilities it is necessary to have a strong rear base, which they did not have and could not have.
        Only the Bolsheviks enriched their rear reserves with the help of simple peasants, they raided them and plundered them and made money on their grief.
        And then, exactly the same former tsarist officers fought against the white officers, only the Reds, who were not inferior to the White either in courage or in tactics.
        But only then, these red officers, were exiled to the camps. And they shed blood for them, so they thanked them with what.
        1. Alexander Suvorov
          Alexander Suvorov 20 November 2019 10: 51 New
          +3
          SERGEY SERGEEVICS (SERGEY SERGEEVICS)
          They were the heroes
          Traitors of their own people cannot be heroes! These your “heroes” then went under the banner of Hitler with their people to fight, for the right to continue to rob and exploit this very people. Krasnov and Shkuro are your true "heroes"!
          But the betrayal of some personalities took and played not for the better.
          Who, whom and when betrayed? Give specifics, and not, as always, unfounded blah blah.
          Only the Bolsheviks enriched their rear reserves with the help of simple peasants, they raided them and plundered them and made money on their grief.
          Well, yes, but white means they fed on the holy spirit and never plundered ordinary peasants, right? Well, holy people, ches word ... laughing laughing laughing In fact, it was the whites who fought to continue to be able to exploit the working people. If it were different, the people would not go en masse for the Reds.
          But only then, these red officers, were exiled to the camps. And they shed blood for them, so they thanked them with what.
          Directly all exiled or maybe only those who deserved it?
          1. SERGEY SERGEEVICS
            SERGEY SERGEEVICS 20 November 2019 11: 41 New
            -6
            Traitors of their own people cannot be heroes!
            Of course not, it’s enough to analyze the situation with the Bolsheviks and their camps. And it will already be possible to understand that they are not heroes.
            These your “heroes” then went under the banner of Hitler with their people to fight, for the right to continue to rob and exploit this very people.
            Sasha, when WWII began, unfortunately, a huge number of your heroes went over and went to the Germans. And on their side, they fought and all this is very terrible and sad. So it’s unnecessary to be ironic here with such things in such groups. This is our story and we must accept it as it is, and not arrange another circus from it.
            Who, whom and when betrayed? Give specifics, and not, as always, unfounded blah blah.
            White countries were betrayed by those countries that helped both ours and yours, but in the end they threw all.
            Give specifics, and not, as always, unfounded blah blah
            So on your part there is never any specifics, only one blah blah blah blah and nothing more.
            Well, yes, but white means they fed on the holy spirit and never plundered ordinary peasants, right?
            Well, not with holy spirit, but with the help of other countries that supplied gold products at first.
            Well, holy people, ches word ...
            Here you have correctly noticed everything.
            If it were different, the people would not go en masse for the Reds.
            He didn’t go to them en masse, but only with the help of a stick and a carrot they fled. Yes, and propaganda also played its own.
            Directly all exiled or maybe only those who deserved it?
            Yes, almost every second and what happens, they all deserve it or something, when they shed blood for them.
            1. Alexander Suvorov
              Alexander Suvorov 20 November 2019 12: 33 New
              +3
              SERGEY SERGEEVICS (SERGEY SERGEEVICS)
              Well, not with holy spirit, but with the help of other countries that supplied gold products at first.
              Enough already to carry nonsense. What are the supply of products? From whom, how much? What is mythical gold for?
              “Soar, falcons, eagles” - was such a popular song, from the time of the good old Russian Empire. So, the right-wing conservative politician of the Civil War, V.V. Shulgin, at a look (rather long) at the White Guard units, replaced the word “eagles” with the word “thieves”. This leader noted in his memoirs the inability of the leadership of the Volunteer Army to cope with the selfish desires of their own soldiers, officers and individual "field" generals. According to Shulgin, the population, at first, greeted the "white warriors" with optimism. But after a month or two spent under the army of Denikin, the peasants openly hated the "liberators." Those who fought less than the rest — officials, enforcers, part of the Cossacks and “native” units — were particularly successful in violence against the population.

              One of the organizers of the White Army, General A.S. Lukomsky explained the unbridled behavior of whites by the fact that earlier the “volunteers” had to supply themselves somehow, in the first months of the fighting. After all, the White Knights simply did not have any organized material supply base. And here is Baron P.N. Wrangel believed that the robbery of the Cossacks - is the desire to improve their own economy.

              The same Wrangel, the dashing cavalryman, noted an acute shortage of people at the front, in the midst of important, deciding the fate of the white movement of battles. Everyone was breaking into the rear, selling the loot. One white soldier-officer accounted for up to ten rear officers and outright deserters. This led to strategic complications - the railways were stupidly blocked by trains with “requisitioned” property. A.S. Lukomsky recalls the enormous composition of one commander, who totaled dozens of wagons and prevented other locomotives from entering Rostov. Subsequent authors believed that it was none other than A. Shkuro with his Cossacks “on vacation”. This brave Kuban Cossack will later become a SS gruppenfuhrer in the Third Reich, during the Second World War. Flourished in the rear and drunkenness, gambling. Many white commanders also suffered from these defects. For example, one of the leaders of the Volunteer Army, V. May-Mayevsky.

              The Commander-in-Chief A.I. did not deny the similar behavior of his charges. Denikin. Recognizing the guilt of his subordinates, he acutely felt his military-political inability to stop the flow of atrocities done by his army. In short, the command was unable to cope with a part of the military leaders, military leaders did not control their own soldiers. And the soldiers, Cossacks and officers, who were once decent people and even heroes of the World War, in the midst of general collapse, massively took the path of robbery.
              Here they are white and "noble" ... laughing
              They were not white noble, continuous rabble fought for the opportunity to continue to parasitize on the body of the people.
              By the way, the raid of Shkuro and Mamontov to the rear to the Reds ended in a complete loss of combat effectiveness precisely because the Cossacks rushed to rob civilians. As a result, they turned from combat-ready units into biomass of marauders and were not so much concerned with completing a combat mission as with bringing the loot to the house. The AFU and the national battalions in the Donbas are now doing exactly the same thing.
              He didn’t go to them en masse, but only with the help of a stick and a carrot they fled. Yes, and propaganda also played its own.
              Well, yes. You can drag your nonsense to someone else. And my great-grandfather in Civil was forcibly mobilized by just the same white. Then he voluntarily switched to the Reds and fought in the First Horse Army until the end of the war.

              What are you all the same bulkhrusty crippled on his head. fool
              1. SERGEY SERGEEVICS
                SERGEY SERGEEVICS 20 November 2019 13: 13 New
                -10
                Enough already to carry nonsense. What are the supply of products? From whom, how much? What is mythical gold for?
                The fact of the matter is that this nonsense is coming from you, you can’t think of anything better than to sit in the open field and carry this nonsense and the same thing in every comment.
                They were not white noble, continuous rabble fought for the opportunity to continue to parasitize on the body of the people.
                Enough to carry nonsense, already change the dislocation from the field to the washroom. What will you prove all this: where are the facts, official documents, and not this is your nonsense and your blah, blah, blah.
                As a result, they turned from combat-ready units into biomass of marauders and were not so much concerned with completing a combat mission as with bringing the loot to the house.
                Here you’ve noticed everything well, about the reds.
                Well, yes. You can drag your nonsense to someone else.
                Why should I suck in someone else when you are and it’s talking with you now, and not with others.
                What are you all the same bulkhrusty crippled on his head.
                You have it when you started building camps.
                You are here for me, don’t bring all this nonsense and don’t speak your teeth, but answer this question:
                1. Look, you are ready to give your apartment to all the property to the Communists, since you are for them.
                those who deserve it
                2. And if someone is on you, the denunciation will do and what will you consider that you have been deservedly punished or what?
                1. Alexander Suvorov
                  Alexander Suvorov 20 November 2019 13: 28 New
                  +2
                  SERGEY SERGEEVICS (SERGEY SERGEEVICS)
                  The fact of the matter is that this nonsense is coming from you
                  About which of the two of us carries bullshit can be judged by your garbage rating, which is below the baseboard. About five years ago you would have been banned a long time ago for such a rating, but now democracy can carry any kind of nonsense.
                  1. Look, you are ready to give your apartment to all the property to the Communists, since you are for them.
                  Where is the logic here? Well then go, give your apartment to Cyril-Romanovskiy dodgers, since you are for them.
                  2. And if someone is on you, the denunciation will do and what will you consider that you have been deservedly punished or what?
                  That is, there are no smarter questions?

                  The fact that you are not far away was immediately apparent, but to such an extent ... request
                  1. SERGEY SERGEEVICS
                    SERGEY SERGEEVICS 20 November 2019 13: 42 New
                    -8
                    About which of the two of us carries bullshit can be judged by your garbage rating, which is below the baseboard.
                    You are better than such successes in life to achieve positive, and do not rejoice that you have them in the group. And as I wrote earlier, to me these minuses with pluses in parallel, I didn’t register here to sit and collect + and -.
                    About five years ago you would have been banned a long time ago for such a rating, but now democracy can carry any kind of nonsense.
                    Don’t worry and calm down, I can even make you happy, I’ve stayed a little and will be put on the black list, I already suggested that they do it, but for now they probably don’t want to just minus it. Well, okay, this has nothing to do with the topic.
                    Where is the logic here? Well then go, give your apartment to Cyril-Romanovskiy dodgers, since you are for them.
                    What is your logic here, it’s unnecessary for me to give something to someone. I asked you a question, and you can’t even answer it.
                    That is, there are no smarter questions?
                    For you, and such a happiness will be.
                    The fact that you are not far away was immediately apparent, but to such an extent ...
                    and YOU ARE NOT AWAY FROM THIS.
              2. SERGEY SERGEEVICS
                SERGEY SERGEEVICS 20 November 2019 13: 28 New
                -8
                All that you wrote above, you can leave everything for yourself and your own kind. yes You will sit in the open field and discuss all this. smile You specifically answer my question.
                1. Look, you are ready to give your apartment to all the property to the Communists, since you are for them.
                those who deserve it
                2. And if someone is on you, the denunciation will do and what will you consider that you have been deservedly punished or what?
            2. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 20 November 2019 13: 58 New
              +7
              Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS
              White countries were betrayed by those countries that helped both ours and yours, but in the end they threw all.

              That is, the Whites could come to power only with foreign help? wink
              Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS
              He didn’t go to them en masse, but only with the help of a stick and a carrot they fled.

              Yeah ... with the whip of Whites. Especially the Supreme Ruler tried. It is incomprehensible to the mind how, in less than a year, to change the mood of the masses from a “liberator from the Reds” to a “bloody executioner of Siberia”, turning their own rear into a snake nest of partisan detachments.
              1. SERGEY SERGEEVICS
                SERGEY SERGEEVICS 20 November 2019 14: 05 New
                -7
                That's just the red with the help of other countries and came to power.
                Yeah ... with the whip of Whites.
                A little you made a mistake of the red whip.
                It is incomprehensible to the mind how, in less than a year, to change the mood of the masses from a “liberator from the Reds” to a “bloody executioner of Siberia”, turning their own rear into a snake nest of partisan detachments.
                As well as the uprising of the 30s. When they used force against their own people.
            3. nov_tech.vrn
              nov_tech.vrn 10 February 2020 12: 48 New
              0
              SERGEY SERGEEVICS you still crunch buns, there could be no popular support for that insignificant percentage of the population in whose interests the civil war was waged by the white movement, we are not even talking about a million, about several hundred thousand people who lived humanly, of them about 100 thousand who constantly lived abroad, well, it’s not a question of traitors, look what someone promised, Admiral Kolchak to his European allies (more precisely, to the owners), in case of victory, the colony, only with white slaves, these are official documents of that time , not your verbiage.
          2. SERGEY SERGEEVICS
            SERGEY SERGEEVICS 20 November 2019 11: 46 New
            -8
            Directly all exiled or maybe only those who deserved it?
            1. Look, you are ready to give your apartment to all the property to the Communists, since you are for them.
            those who deserve it
            2. And if someone is on you, the denunciation will do and what will you consider that you have been deservedly punished or what?
            1. Alexander Suvorov
              Alexander Suvorov 20 November 2019 13: 33 New
              +3
              Why do you persistently continue to show everyone your stupidity? Are you not a masochist for an hour?
              It is not necessary to repeat the same absolutely stupid questions devoid of any sense and logic three times.
              1. SERGEY SERGEEVICS
                SERGEY SERGEEVICS 20 November 2019 13: 46 New
                -6
                Why do you persistently continue to show everyone your stupidity? Are you not a masochist for an hour?
                From your experience you write, which showed in practice.
                It is not necessary to repeat the same absolutely stupid questions devoid of any sense and logic three times.
                And why do you work according to one scheme, that you do not have a comment, then the same thing, at least change words, you have only one nonsense in the text, go change it for another word.
              2. SERGEY SERGEEVICS
                SERGEY SERGEEVICS 20 November 2019 13: 53 New
                -7
                What did you immediately become silent there, do you think your pluses laughing Answer the question to me, not the heresy that you write in the field or that he went to do masochism.
                1. Alexander Suvorov
                  Alexander Suvorov 20 November 2019 14: 19 New
                  +3
                  SERGEY SERGEEVICS (SERGEY SERGEEVICS)
                  What did you immediately become silent there, do you think your pluses
                  I'm on the drum + and -, I'm not here for that. Pointing to your garbage rating, I just wanted to emphasize that the majority of this site does not share your point of view. Most are on my side, which means I'm right, and you are not. In the same way, the majority supported the Bolsheviks, but did not support the white, that's all!
                  Answer me a question
                  Formulate a competent, and most importantly not a stupid question, and I will answer you. To stupid and idiotic questions I do not answer.
                  or that went into masochism.
                  It’s more about your part.
                  1. SERGEY SERGEEVICS
                    SERGEY SERGEEVICS 20 November 2019 14: 34 New
                    -6
                    that your point of view is not shared by the majority on this site.
                    And what from this? I express my opinion, and not the majority of people, and for this I create such groups so that people can express their opinion, rather than copying other people.
                    Most are on my side, which means I'm right, and you are not.
                    Kindergarten, and you did not take into account the fact that you can create many such pages and put advantages. And from this you will not be right.
                    In the same way, the majority supported the Bolsheviks, but did not support the white, that's all!
                    Only then they had to pay a lot for it.
                    Formulate a competent, and most importantly not a stupid question, and I will answer you. To stupid and idiotic questions I do not answer.
                    You have already shown your stupidity when you could not answer the question, and switched to taking it, so rejoice at this question, calm down and get together and answer it.
                    It’s more about your part.
                    You wrote about this and you also brought your sore subject to public display. So you are, and that is what you are undermining from.
                  2. SERGEY SERGEEVICS
                    SERGEY SERGEEVICS 20 November 2019 17: 20 New
                    -4
                    Most are on my side, which means I'm right, and you are not.
                    The logic of course you have at the kindergarten level.
                    Formulate a competent, and most importantly not a stupid question, and I will answer you. To stupid and idiotic questions I do not answer.
                    How do you answer stupid and idiotic answers, such and you have to ask questions, if you ask the right question and there are no words suitable for this answer, rejoice at least they ask you questions. It will be much honor for you to ask something worthwhile.
              3. SERGEY SERGEEVICS
                SERGEY SERGEEVICS 20 November 2019 13: 56 New
                -6
                Why do you persistently continue to show everyone your stupidity? Are you not a masochist for an hour?
                AND WHY DO YOU DO IT.
                It is not necessary to repeat the same absolutely stupid questions devoid of any sense and logic three times.
                YOU DO IT FIVE TIMES. When you start proving your meaningless logic about the Reds. You are liberal, and with all of this, you are just hiding behind.
              4. nov_tech.vrn
                nov_tech.vrn 10 February 2020 12: 52 New
                +1
                he is a direct student of Dr. Goebbels, what do you want from him?
        2. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 20 November 2019 13: 39 New
          +9
          Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS
          They were heroes and strategists

          Yeah ... great strategists.
          I’ll take the Eagle, but my front will come forward like a sugar head. When the enemy strike group goes on the offensive and hits my flanks, I will not be able to maneuver. Nevertheless, I was ordered to take the Eagle!

          In White’s tactics, horror-horror-horror was going on:
          The whites had the experience of three years of the Great, and many of the years of the Japanese war. Perfectly saw the mistakes of both the tsarist and the Provisional Government back then. And what did you get?
          IMHO, most of all the civil war resembled the war not even of the XNUMXth, but of the XNUMXthth centuries - large and small gangs of unknown orientation and unknown numbers roam the ruined country in an unknown direction. With their heads at the peaks and hatred of all living things.
          Instead of assault teams - walking in the attack with thick chains without a shot, without bending down and not lying down, and the officers are proud of it. My God, many years before this, the last blacks in Africa knew what a machine gun, shrapnel and magazine rifles were. On the WWII fronts, even half a head could not be raised, or looked out into a loophole.
          Since August 14th, when the hands lying under shrapnel were digging shelters, fortification and tactics have developed incredibly. And then "the simplest tactical truths were perceived as a revelation." In the 18th, “trenches and fortifications were not built. The largest that was dug by a hole to protect the shoulders and head, for the most part lay open ”, in the 19th“ our trenches were built extremely remotely ”and in the 20th already on Perekop it was the same. Artillery pulls up and openly shoots at close range, forgetting just everything. Intelligence is such that even in the 18th, the Reds attack suddenly, despite the fact that their plans and radio were read freely. And a constant refrain: “But if the hand of the red machine gunner / gunner didn’t flinch, we would all remain there.”
          In the memoirs and works - a continuous moan over the shots destroyed in the WWI, and rightly so. But whites create officer regiments and St. George battalions, completely not caring for the training of recruits. They drove to slaughter, although often there was time and money. And dreamed of what kind of division could be made from the Academy of the General Staff. Even the Landsknechts would blush from the principle of forming parts by a group of acquaintances.
          © E. Belash

          Well, the eternal problem is supply ...
          Beginning of 1918: “Of one hundred and two people, 60 were frostbite ... I pass the note to the regiment. S. and report. “So much frostbite!”, “Didn’t get canned food ?!”, “Still no warm!” “Kornilov shouts, clutching his head.” “Var, Var, return my legions” - where was the strike regiment created back in May-August 17th?
          December 1918: “The fresh 47th regiment of the 12th division and the brigade of the 6th Ural division suffered heavy losses from frostbite, because, participating in the battle for the first time, they lay for a long time under fire in the snow. Kappel was later accused of misusing them. Rather, the complete unpreparedness of the command staff for fighting in the winter was to blame. ”
          January 1920: “Wet felt boots were immediately covered with ice crust. To avoid pneumonia, the last 10 versts after the river had to be walked in pood boots. General Kappel, pitying his horse, often walked, drowning in the snow just like the others. Shod in fur boots, he accidentally drowned in snow and scooped up water in boots without telling anyone about this ... At this passage Kappel grabbed erysipelas of the leg and then lungs and soon died. ”
          February 1920: General Pavlov loses half his equestrian group frozen out; the cavalry of the South of Russia orders a long life.
          October 1920: “The Russian army, which launched the campaign in the summer of 1920, was not prepared for such a sharp change in the weather and for winter battles. Soldiers in the trenches, not having warm clothes, wrapped themselves in rags and left their positions in the rear villages. Frost caused both the decline in the spirit of the troops and the frostbite of hundreds of soldiers on the front lines. "
          1. SERGEY SERGEEVICS
            SERGEY SERGEEVICS 20 November 2019 13: 50 New
            -7
            Yeah ... great strategists.
            Of course, these people, and on the sidelines of the First World War, won grandiose victories in civilian too. Or will you dispute this too?
            In White’s tactics, horror-horror-horror was going on:
            This is already at the end, as well as the reds.
            Well, the eternal problem is supply ...
            The betrayal has taken its place, and the Reds were no better either.
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 20 November 2019 14: 11 New
              +5
              Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS
              Of course, these people, and on the sidelines of the First World War, won grandiose victories in civilian too.

              Yeah ... and like in WWI, they got a series of victories leading to defeat.
              Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS
              This is already at the end, as well as the reds.

              1918 is at the end of the hot water? belay
              To hell with them, with trenches. But for three days to keep the headquarters in a hut in an open field, in an observable place, under the fire of the Reds - what's this called?
              You know - the headquarters was in a hut in an open field. For several days they were shooting, and quite successfully ... We told the general. He paid no attention ... "Good, after." The last day everyone was digging around with shells ... they realized that there was a headquarters, for the horsemen were arriving, with reports, people were crowding. Well, here is one of these shells and hit right in the hut, in the room where the general was. He was thrown about the stove. He broke his leg, arm. Khadzhiev and I were carried out into the air. But nothing could be done. He died, did not say a word, just moaned ...
              1. The comment was deleted.
              2. SERGEY SERGEEVICS
                SERGEY SERGEEVICS 20 November 2019 14: 22 New
                -7
                Yeah ... and like in WWI, they got a series of victories leading to defeat.
                THEY DID NOT LOSE THIS WAR, but there was a cowardly agreement on the part of the Bolsheviks, according to which they transferred part of the land to the Germans.
                To hell with them, with trenches. But for three days to keep the headquarters in a hut in an open field, in an observable place, under the fire of the Reds - what's this called?
                And this is called a courageous and heroic feat when they fought with all their might for their native land.
                1. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 20 November 2019 15: 00 New
                  +5
                  Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS
                  And this is called a courageous and heroic feat when they fought with all their might for their native land.

                  It is called utter stupidity. As well as the fact that noble Belorussians in WWI did not like to crawl in the mud, as a result a huge part of the officers was knocked out.
                  1. SERGEY SERGEEVICS
                    SERGEY SERGEEVICS 20 November 2019 15: 23 New
                    -5
                    It is called utter stupidity.
                    And according to your opinion, it was necessary to surrender without a fight, as the Reds did, and then also gave the land. No, they gave the oath to their country and people, that's what they fought for.
                    As well as the fact that noble Belorussians in WWI did not like to crawl in the mud, as a result a huge part of the officers was knocked out.
                    It was there that they crawled and won brilliant victories, thanks to them the South of the country and part of the territory of the West was completely cleared. And then the Bolsheviks stupidly gave these lands to the Germans, and to other countries too.
                2. Alexey RA
                  Alexey RA 20 November 2019 16: 58 New
                  +6
                  Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS
                  And this is called a courageous and heroic feat when they fought with all their might for their native land.

                  This is not called a feat, but a crime. Deliberately putting the headquarters under attack, making it difficult to control the entrusted troops (and, in the future, and depriving them of this command) - this will make it easier for the enemy to carry out his mission and provide increased losses to his troops.

                  And this is if you do not remember the role of the individual in the Civil War, when the troops did not go for abstract concepts, but for a specific person. And his death often led to a mess and anarchy among those who followed him. In fact, Kornilov, with his pseudo-heroism, was leading the collapse of the White forces and the disorganization of his units.
                  1. SERGEY SERGEEVICS
                    SERGEY SERGEEVICS 20 November 2019 17: 08 New
                    -7
                    This is not called a feat, but a crime.
                    But WHAT RED DOES WITH THE COUNTRY AND PEOPLE IS NOT A CRIME? The whole mess and the whole anarchy were made and created by the Bolsheviks when they unleashed the revolution.
                    1. Alexey RA
                      Alexey RA 20 November 2019 18: 44 New
                      +5
                      Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS
                      But WHAT RED DOES WITH THE COUNTRY AND PEOPLE IS NOT A CRIME? The whole mess and the whole anarchy were made and created by the Bolsheviks when they unleashed the revolution.

                      And we all know these Bolsheviks - Guchkov, Milyukov, Alekseev, Kerensky, Chkheidze and other members of the military-industrial-political "elite", including members of the Surname. smile
                      The collapse of the army began with "Order No. 1". Developed by the Executive Committee of the Petrosoviet, in which at that time there were as many as 17 Bolsheviks on 3 members (of which 0 in the manual). The most active "promoter" of this order was darling Alexander Fedorovich.
                      The temporary workers had a chance to escape October. But they merged him, having managed at first to try to restore order by the forces of the army, and then, frightened, to declare their own creature a rebel - and throw in suppression "rebellion" legal gangs its main political opponent, while also arming them.
                      1. SERGEY SERGEEVICS
                        SERGEY SERGEEVICS 21 November 2019 17: 25 New
                        -2
                        And what did all these people do with the imperial empire? That's right, Alexey, they destroyed her and people. A huge amount of land was given to other countries, the royal treasury was sold for a penny and other values, too. yes
  2. Aviator_
    Aviator_ 20 November 2019 08: 12 New
    +3
    Interesting stuff. To the author - respect.
  3. Olgovich
    Olgovich 20 November 2019 09: 22 New
    -8
    Makhno and other chieftainsthat set fire to large spaces in New Russia and Little Russia. Part of the forces of the Kiev region fought against Petliuristsс Highlanders, forces of the North Caucasus Emirate, etc.

    The Bolsheviks have good allies, yes ...
    The forces of the Reds on the South and Southeast Front were constantly growing. Due with improvement on other fronts
    By betraying the interests of Russia on the Western Front with the Poles: the Bolsheviks promised them any Russian lands for a truce in order to be saved, which they taught. Then they found complete mutual understanding with them: both of them hated a united Russia
    The main role in the offensive was to play the strike group under Latvian Division A. A. Martusevich,

    Who would doubt: hired foreign army (10 regiments and 40 guns) in the service of the Bolsheviks, deployed from the Western Front ..
    The author forgot yet another Rusak division that had been transferred from there: the Estonian division. These "Rusaks", coupled with the red Ukrainians, "Cossacks" and tipped the scales ....

    On the other hand, all of these Egorovs, Shorins, Makhns and Primakovs (commander of red hearts), Latvians and Estonians were safely killed by their masters.
    1. apro
      apro 20 November 2019 10: 03 New
      +8
      Quote: Olgovich
      By betraying the interests of Russia on the Western Front with the Poles: the Bolsheviks promised them any Russian lands for a truce,

      This time. And what lands did the Bolsheviks voluntarily transfer to the Poles? All that they lost under the Riga Treaty were returned in 1939. And they did not take a stranger ...
      1. Alexander Suvorov
        Alexander Suvorov 20 November 2019 10: 17 New
        +3
        apro (Oleg Frolov)
        This time. And what lands did the Bolsheviks voluntarily give to the Poles?
        What do you want from a person living in parallel reality? He has his own story there.
        1. SERGEY SERGEEVICS
          SERGEY SERGEEVICS 20 November 2019 10: 34 New
          -3
          Like you, you constantly live and are somewhere there, which the world is no more and will not be.
        2. Olgovich
          Olgovich 20 November 2019 11: 18 New
          -6
          Quote: Alexander Suvorov
          What do you want from a person living in parallel reality? He has his own story there.

          Hello to the distant past! hi lol
      2. Olgovich
        Olgovich 20 November 2019 11: 14 New
        -1
        Quote: apro
        This time. And what lands did the Bolsheviks voluntarily transfer to the Poles? All that they lost under the Riga Treaty were returned in 1939. And they did not take a stranger ...

        West Russian.

        You could know your story:
        The Russian Socialist Federative Soviet Republic is ready to immediately sign a truce and preliminaries
        peace based on recognition of the border between Poland and Russia
        lines extending significantly east of the border established by
        Supreme Allied Council December 3, 1919
        Mr.
        .

        those. even east of the 1941 border. Did you catch it?

        This is a document of 1920, but it was the same in 1919.
        1. apro
          apro 20 November 2019 11: 51 New
          +5
          Quote: Olgovich
          those. even east of the 1941 border. Caught?

          Did the Poles go for it?
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 21 November 2019 07: 45 New
            -3
            Quote: apro
            Did the Poles go for it?

            What does the Poles .... to the fact of betrayal of the Ulyanovsk territories of Russia? belay
            1. apro
              apro 21 November 2019 09: 38 New
              +2
              I don’t understand your idea. What does it mean? And what is the fact of the betrayal of the territory of Russia? Was the territory of Poland part of RI on a voluntary basis? Or was the tsar a Polish prince upon the conquest? Did the Polish population want to be a part of Russia?
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 21 November 2019 11: 28 New
                -3
                Quote: apro
                I do not understand your thought. What does it mean?

                The Bolsheviks, for the preservation of their power, gave everything to everyone: Germans, Poles, etc.
                Brest, Decree of the All-Russian Central Executive Committee (above) -You to help.

                for some it’s the norm, for Russia it’s a disaster
                Quote: apro
                Was Poland's territory voluntarily included? Or was the tsar a Polish prince upon the conquest? Did the Polish population want to be in Russia?

                belay
                yes yes no AND?
    2. Freeman
      Freeman 20 November 2019 10: 43 New
      +4
      Olgovich Today, 09:22
      Who would doubt it: a hired foreign army (10 regiments and 40 guns) in the service of the Bolsheviks, deployed from the Western Front ..
      The author forgot yet another Rusak division that had been transferred from there: the Estonian division. These "Rusaks", coupled with the red Ukrainians, "Cossacks" and tipped the scales ....

      Olgovich, you obviously have some kind of “fad” against the Latvian shooters. Is this something personal? Do not explain?

      And if you are such a champion of the Russian Empire, then why do you deny its citizens the right to participate in a civil war only on the grounds that they are not “Rusaks”?
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 20 November 2019 11: 31 New
        -5
        Quote: Freeman
        Olgovich, you obviously have some kind of “fad” against the Latvian shooters. Is this something personal? Do not explain?

        , Alexey, I do not like hypocritical cruel mercenaries. Instead of America, they ... went to Russia to earn money. On their hands is the blood of tens of thousands of Russian people.
        Then they thrown out their red banners and with ... cap flags. Latvia returned to serve her. I don't like and disdain.
        Quote: Freeman
        And if you are such a champion of the Russian Empire, then why do you deny its citizens the right to participate in a civil war only on the grounds that they are not “Rusaks”?


        Latvia was RECOGNIZED by the so-called SNK of the Bolsheviks INDEPENDENT by the state. This is FOREIGNERS already.
        He had his own red army. Which, after being expelled from the Motherland, went to earn money in Russia by killing Russians, this is the so-called Latvian division.
        The same with the Estonians: those families generally went to "nearby earnings" (wives, daughters, etc.) to the nearby petrograd (Est division)
        1. Freeman
          Freeman 20 November 2019 21: 36 New
          +1
          Olgovich (Andrey) Today, 11:31
          ... I do not like hypocritical cruel mercenaries. Instead of America, they ... went to Russia to earn money.

          They are not mercenaries, they are participants in the civil war. And in the ranks of the "white" against the "red" fought about 9500 former Latvian riflemen of the army of the Republic of Ingushetia. Only unlike the Red Army, they were not brought into national units.
          On their hands the blood of tens of thousands of Russian people

          Blood was "poured" and "white" and "red" - and by no means on ethnic grounds.
          Latvia was RECOGNIZED by the so-called SNK of the Bolsheviks as an INDEPENDENT state.

          In 1918, SNK recognized independence Soviet Republic of Latvia
          This is FOREIGNERS already

          The Bolshevik-Leninists were internationalists. Recognizing the independence of Latvia, they are primarily recognized the power of the Councils of Latviarather than independence of the territory. / see decree: https://francis-maks.livejournal.com/480254.html /
          Then they threw out their red banners and with ... cap flags. Latvia returned to serve her.

          Based on what has been written, some might think that the Latvian units of the Red Army, fully armed, to the music of military bands and drum rolls, with their banners unfolded in red, returned to bourgeois Latvia - and at the border, they threw out these banners and raised the flags of "cap. Latvia" and immediately poured into her armed forces. wassat
          “But that is not so.” By the time of their return, the Latvian units of the Red Army were already disbanded. And already already demobilized (that is, "civilian") and some refugees who sought refuge in Russia from the German occupation of the Baltic states in WWI returned to Latvia.
          However, it should be noted that subsequently, some of these Latvians joined the army of bourgeois Latvia.
          By the way, after Latvia joined the USSR in 1940, its armed forces became part of the Red Army.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 21 November 2019 08: 04 New
            -3
            Quote: Freeman
            They are not mercenaries, they are participants in the civil war. And in the ranks of the "white" against the "red" fought about 9500 former Latvian riflemen of the army of the Republic of Ingushetia. Only unlike the Red Army, they were not brought into national units.

            You do not know your own story: nat. Latvian parts WERE created on the territory of the Russian state of Kolchak under the auspices of the Entente, at the front -NOT foughtand were evacuated to Latvia by the Entente and joined the Latvian army.
            Quote: Freeman
            Blood was "poured" and "white" and "red" - and by no means on ethnic grounds.

            Yeah, only, for some reason, 90% of the victims of hired animalsRussiane people.
            Quote: Freeman
            The Bolshevik-Leninists were internationalists. Recognizing the independence of Latvia, they primarily recognized the power of the Councils of Latvia, and not the independence of the territory. / see decree: https://francis-maks.livejournal.com/480254.html /

            You Russian Do you understand the language? no It reads:
            1. The Russian Soviet Government recognizes independencel of the Soviet Republic of Latvia

            Is this another state now that is incomprehensible ??
            Quote: Freeman
            Based on what was written, some may think that the Latvian units of the Red Army, fully armed, to the music of military bands and drum rolls, with their banners unfolded in red, returned to bourgeois Latvia - and at the border, these banners were thrown and raised flags "cap. Latvia" and immediately poured into its armed forces.

            So it was: the mercenaries were returning organized by ECHELONS under LATISH bourgeois flags.

            If you delve into a ditch in Pytalovo, you can also find red bows of tyrnationalist-zarobitchans

            Quote: Freeman
            However, it should be noted that subsequently, some of these Latvians joined the army of bourgeois Latvia.

            Recognized, though.
            They also served in the SS
            Quote: Freeman
            By the way, after Latvia joined the USSR in 1940, its armed forces became part of the Red Army.

            AND? Why are we silent about their “heroic struggle” with the invaders in June-July 41? lol
            1. Freeman
              Freeman 21 November 2019 19: 55 New
              0
              Olgovich (Andrey) Today, 08:04
              nat. the Latvian units WERE created on the territory of the Russian state of Kolchak under the auspices of the Entente, at the front they did NOT fight, were evacuated to Latvia by the Entente and joined the Latvian army.

              I know about the Imperial Regiment and the Trinity Battalion, but I did not unequivocally consider them as part of Kolchak's army. All of this status is "under the auspices of the Entente."
              On the one hand, the Trinity battalion performed security functions and even participated in some “police”, even punitive, operations.
              On the other hand, the Czechoslovak corps, subordinate to a member of the Entente, France, partly did the same.
              But relations with the Kolchak government, they developed according to the principle
              - "We gave you rotation, and the axis was our genital organ."
              1. The Russian Soviet Government recognizes the independence of the Soviet Republic of Latvia

              Is this another state now that is incomprehensible ??
              mercenaries returned organized by ECHELONS under the BALTIC BALTHOUS flags.

              Not mercenaries - but allies. Have you considered this option?
              They returned under the national flags, and not under the red ones, since by that time they did not have them. Parts disbanded, fighters demobilized, banners delivered.
              Ordinary demobilization was returning, not organized military units.
              Recognized, though.
              They also served in the SS

              I did not deny it. And in the SS, alas, some also served.
              AND? Why are we silent about their “heroic struggle” with the invaders in June-July 41?

              Well, fact is fact. These parts showed themselves in the worst possible way. Partially deserted, partly surrendered, and some went over to the Wehrmacht.
              But the Latvian 201st Infantry Division (1st formation), created later in the USSR, fought worthily.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 22 November 2019 11: 57 New
                -1
                Quote: Freeman
                I know about the Imperial Regiment and the Trinity Battalion, but I did not unequivocally consider them as part of Kolchak's army. All of this status is "under the auspices of the Entente."
                On the one hand, the Trinity battalion performed security functions and even participated in some “police”, even punitive, operations.
                On the other hand, the Czechoslovak corps, subordinate to a member of the Entente, France, partly did the same.
                But relations with the Kolchak government, they developed according to the principle
                - "We gave you rotation, and the axis was our genital organ."

                You declared warring on the side of white Latvians, that already a mistake
                Quote: Freeman
                On the other hand, the Czechoslovak corps, subordinate to a member of the Entente, France, partly did the same.

                Czechs fought at the front, Latvians no.
                Quote: Freeman
                Not mercenaries - but allies. Have you considered this option?

                Them money paid several times more than the usual red
                Quote: Freeman
                They returned under the national flags, and not under the red ones, since by that time they did not have them. Parts disbanded, fighters demobilized, banners delivered.
                Ordinary demobilization returned, not organized military units

                ECHELONES demobilization with the flags of the regime against which .... Fought ?!
                This is where this is seen, depict request
                Quote: Freeman
                Well, fact is fact. These parts showed themselves in the worst possible way. Partially deserted, partly surrendered, and some went over to the Wehrmacht.
                .

                I respect you for acknowledging this fact.
                Quote: Freeman
                But here is the Latvian 201st Infantry Division (1st formation), created later in the USSR, fought with dignity.

                I know these parts: my uncle, a Lithuanian, fought in the Lithuanian division. But there were a lot of neo-people there ...
                1. The comment was deleted.
    3. ALEXEY VLADIMIROVICH
      ALEXEY VLADIMIROVICH 20 November 2019 11: 45 New
      +4
      Quote: Olgovich
      all of these Egorovs, Shorins, Makhns and Primakovs (commander of red hearts), Latvians and Estonians were safely killed by their masters.

      Well, not all. For example, the Soviet commander of the Latvian division A. Martusevich left for capitalist Lithuania, where in 1921 he took the post of chief of artillery with the rank of lieutenant general. After his resignation, the red commander Martusevich headed the Credit Bank of Lithuania.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 21 November 2019 08: 08 New
        0
        Quote: ALEXEY VLADIMIROVICH
        Well, not all. For example, the Soviet commander of the Latvian division A. Martusevich left for capitalist Lithuania, where in 1921 he took the post of chief of artillery with the rank of lieutenant general. After his resignation, the red commander Martusevich headed the Credit Bank of Lithuania.

        Duc, escaped, unfortunately, until the happy 1937 ...
    4. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 20 November 2019 14: 04 New
      +5
      Quote: Olgovich
      The Bolsheviks have good allies, yes ...

      And since when did all the opponents of the whites become allies of the Bolsheviks? belay
      Was the army of free Georgia, which captured Sochi and fought with Denikin, was allied with the Bolsheviks (the same army that had defeated the Bolsheviks before)?
      Do not forget that in the Civil War there were more than two sides - the same nationalists fought against the whites and the reds.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 21 November 2019 09: 10 New
        -1
        Quote: Alexey RA
        А since when all the opponents of the white became allies of the Bolsheviks?
        Was the army of free Georgia, which captured Sochi and fought with Denikin, was allied with the Bolsheviks (the same army that had defeated the Bolsheviks before)?
        Do not forget that in the Civil War there were more than two sides - the same nationalists fought against the whites and the reds.

        I wrote quite clearly with “what” ones: from those when it was necessary to overthrow Russian Russia.

        Then they united.

        And the rest, of course, they had their own graters (very conditional, because all the wildest unimaginable mrias of the Ukrainian Grushevsky nationalists were realized by the Bolsheviks: in the territories, Ukrainization, "history", etc., etc.)
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 21 November 2019 10: 31 New
          +4
          Quote: Olgovich
          I wrote quite clearly with “what” ones: from those when it was necessary to overthrow Russian Russia.

          And when the same Georgians beat the Bolsheviks-were they allies of the Whites? Especially if you recall that Georgia at that time fell under the Second Reich. wink
          And whose allies were the white Finns? Reds whom they killed, or whites, whom they also killed, and even demanded from the leadership of the White movement of the land of the Empire?
          And the funniest thing is - whose ally was the separatist and Hataskan Great Don Army? smile
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 21 November 2019 10: 57 New
            -2
            Quote: Alexey RA
            And when the same Georgians beat the Bolsheviks-were they allies of the Whites? Especially if you recall that Georgia at that time fell under the Second Reich.
            And whose allies were the white Finns? Reds whom they killed, or whites, whom they also killed, and even demanded from the leadership of the White movement of the land of the Empire?

            Patiently THIRD times I will explain: they all united against Russia) this is the main thing). In breaks and after-cut each other.
            Quote: Alexey RA
            And the funniest thing is - whose ally was the separatist and Hataskrai Great Don Army?

            belay
            Don Army -integral part of VSYUR
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 21 November 2019 13: 39 New
              0
              Quote: Olgovich
              The Don Army is an integral part of the All-Union Socialist League

              That is, the Whites advocated the dismemberment of Russia? For the Great Don Army is a sovereign independent state.
              Quote: Olgovich
              Patiently, THIRD TIME I will explain: they all united against Russia)

              That is, the Whites wanted help from the dismembers of Russia?
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 22 November 2019 10: 11 New
                -1
                Quote: Alexey RA
                That is, the Whites advocated the dismemberment of Russia? For the Great Don Army is sovereign independent state.

                belay request
                This is part of Russia with its own management BEFORE RECOVERY authorities throughout Russia (Kaledin)
                Quote: Alexey RA
                That is, the Whites wanted help from the dismembers of Russia?

                Where does it come from? belay
  4. Looking for
    Looking for 20 November 2019 16: 48 New
    0
    Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS
    They were heroes and strategists.

    they were traitors and murderers.
  5. Looking for
    Looking for 20 November 2019 16: 53 New
    +4
    Quote: Olgovich
    , Alexey, I do not like hypocritical cruel mercenaries.

    and to whom only "glorious" white officers did not serve - both the Katays and the Japanese and the Germans. and the Yugoslavs and the British and others. other.
    1. BAI
      BAI 20 November 2019 17: 20 New
      +4
      The network has a chronicle - the last white parade in Vladivostok. The parade takes the Japanese. They are in the same ranks with the Americans - i.e. ceremonial boxes go one after another - white, American, etc. Everything is very clear: to whom they served, with whom they served.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 21 November 2019 09: 21 New
        -4
        Quote: BAI
        The network has a chronicle - the last white parade in Vladivostok. The parade takes the Japanese. They are in the same ranks with the Americans - i.e. ceremonial boxes go one after another - white, American, etc. Everything is very clear: to whom they served, with whom they served

        There is a parade in Berlin on the web and in the newsletter, go
        Quote: BAI
        in line with the Americans - i.e. ceremonial boxes go one after another - American, etc.
        yes
        All
        Quote: BAI
        it is very clear: to whom they served, with whom they served.