Forgotten Soviet cartridge 6x49 mm vs cartridge 6,8 mm NGSW

Consequences for the RF Armed Forces in the Case of Success or Failure of the NGSW Program

In a previous article, we looked at what actions can be taken if the Next Generation Squad Weapon (NGSW) program is partially successful, when program participants cannot create weapon, providing at the same time a significant increase in range, and high armor penetration, in combination with a fairly low recoil, and an acceptable mass of weapons.

In this case, the weapons created under the NGSW program will occupy a limited niche in the US armed forces in the form of the light machine gun NGSW-AR and the Marxman rifle NGSW-R. At the same time, the bulk of US troops will be armed with traditional weapons chambered for 5,56x45 mm caliber, or weapons with slightly more powerful ammunition, for example, on the basis of 6,5x39 Grendel or 6,8x43 Rem SPC cartridges.

The response of the Russian armed forces and industry in this case may lie in the area of ​​relatively low-cost evolutionary development of existing weapons, such as the Pecheneg machine gun, SVD / Microwave sniper rifles and Kalashnikov assault rifle or machine gun, as well as ammunition for them of the caliber 7,62x54R, 7,62x39 mm or 5,45x39 mm.

However, if NGSW members will be able to to create a weapon that provides both a significant increase in range, and high armor penetration, combined with a fairly low recoil, and an acceptable mass, a simple improvement of existing weapons and ammunition will not succeed. In this article, we consider what options for reciprocal decisions can be implemented by industry in the interests of the armed forces of the Russian Federation.

As a preamble, one can cite the words of Alexei Sorokin, former director of the Tula TsKIB SOO: “It is obvious that promising systems of small arms (SALW) should be built on the basis of new ammunition, since the potential for modernization of cartridges 5,45 × 39 mm and 7,62 × 54 mm is practically exhausted and still does not reach promising requirements. Several years ago, research was carried out on a new ammunition for promising small arms and light weapons, and although, in my opinion, the work was interesting, the parent organization carried out very poorly technological work on the manufacture of an experimental batch of cartridges, and comparative tests did not show an advantage over existing ammunition, a negative output. Work stopped. The discussion of returning to the 7,62 × 39 mm cartridge is speculation. "No significant advantages over 5,45 × 39 mm can be obtained, and work on the creation of new ammunition for machine guns and sniper rifles, and machine guns is not actively and systematically conducted."

To borrow useful things from the West, as we see, is not the first time for Russia. But borrow only the caliber of the rifle is not worth it. It is better to start, for example, with at least a partial creation of that atmosphere of open and public discussion that accompanies similar work "with them." Moreover, it does not require additional money. On the contrary, to reduce efforts to classify everything, and everything will even save. Unless, of course, once again it turns out that the "secret" was not from strangers, but from their own ".

TsKIB SOO, a branch of KBP JSC (Tula), is a developer of not only weapons, but also ammunition. In the photo are cartridges for underwater firing of the PSP (with a bullet made of tungsten alloy) and PSP-UD for the two-medium machine gun "ADS" of caliber 5,45x39 mm

And another digression: “In accordance with a request for information from 08.07.2019 issued on July 8, the US Army Contract Command, on behalf of the military research and production organization Picatinny Arsenal, wishes to receive from the industry data on the possibility of manufacturing, cost of testing and supply of new ammunition of caliber 6,8 mm designed for use with weapons under the NGSW program. Cost and cost estimates should take into account the use of equipment necessary for the manufacture of cores from tungsten carbide».

Cherished 6,5 mm

Since the advent of the unitary cartridge for small arms, countless ammunition of various caliber and purpose has been released. Probably from this moment the search for the perfect ammunition began, first for rifles and machine guns, and then for machine guns, which continues to this day not only on the pages of specialized Internet resources, but also within the walls of defense enterprises and institutes. Often, in search of an “ideal” caliber, it is forgotten that the diameter of the bullet is only one of the characteristics of the ammunition, and cartridges with fundamentally different characteristics can be realized within the framework of one caliber.

Cartridges 7,92x57 mm and 7,92x94 mm with almost the same bullet, with initial energy, respectively, 3567 J and 10673 J

Often the choice of the best ammunition is surrounded by legends, one of which is the widespread belief that the ideal cartridge for an assault rifle should be the 6,5 mm caliber cartridge, proposed in the 1913 year by V.G. Fedor 1913 year cartridge 6,5x57 mm for an automatic rifle of his own design. For cartridge 6,5х57 mm V.G. Fedorov developed not only standard, but also armor-piercing bullets, with tungsten alloy cores.

The cartridge 6,5X57 mm was never adopted by the Russian and then the Soviet army, and therefore it is possible to talk about its likely advantages only in the alternative format stories.

Cartridge V.G. Fedorova caliber 6,5X57 mm

At the end of the 19th - beginning of the 20th centuries, a lot of cartridges of the 6,5 mm caliber were produced - this is the Italian cartridge 6,5 × 52 mm Mannlicher-Carcano, and the Swedish 6,5 × 55SE mm Swedish Mauser, and the Japanese 6,5 × 50SR Arisaka, which V.G. Fedorov used in his rifle instead of his own cartridge 6,5x57 mm.

Cartridges 6,5x50SR Arisaka, 6,5x52 mm Mannlicher-Carcano, 6,5x54 Mannlicher-Schonauer, 6.5x54R Mannlicher, 6.5 × 55 Mauser and 7,62xXNNMXR

Ultimately, in the 20th century, ammunition of the caliber 7,62 mm and low-pulse cartridges of the caliber 5,45 / 5,56 mm dominated by a huge margin. Given the funds that the leading powers of the world invested in defense research, it can hardly be said that this choice is unreasonable.

Nevertheless, the story is made in a spiral, and the development of promising ammunition caliber 6-7 mm can be claimed in promising weapons.

Soviet heritage

In the USSR, systematic studies were conducted of promising small arms and ammunition for it. As could be seen from the previous article The evolution of an automaton in the USSR and in Russia in the context of the American NGSW programThe scale of the work carried out in the framework of the competition for the “Ratnik” equipment machine is not even close to what was implemented in the USSR as part of the solution of a similar problem.

An interesting ammunition for small arms, about which there is not enough information, is the 6x49 mm cartridge, developed at the end of the 80 of the XX century by specialists from the Central Scientific Research Institute of Precision Engineering (TSNIITOCHMASH). The 6x49 mm cartridge is a rifle and machine-gun ammunition designed to engage targets protected by means of individual armor protection (NIB) at a distance of up to 1000 meters. The predecessor of the 6x49 mm cartridge was the 1975x6 mm cartridge created back in the 54 year, with an initial speed of the 5-gram bullet in 1080 m / s. The energy of the bullet of the cartridge 6x54 mm exceeded in some parts of the trajectory, and in others it was comparable with the energy of the bullet of the cartridge 7,62x54R.

Left to right cartridges 7,62x54R, 6x54 mm, 7,62x39 mm, 5,45x39 mm

The 6x49 mm cartridge had higher characteristics compared to the 6x54 mm cartridge with smaller dimensions. A bullet weighing 5 grams was accelerated to a speed of 1150 m / s, while the recoil momentum was less by 25-30% than the cartridge 7,62x54R.

From left to right, cartridges of 6x54 mm, 6x49 mm with an ordinary bullet with a steel core, 6x49 mm with an armor-piercing bullet with a steel core, 6x49 mm with an armor-piercing bullet with a tungsten-cobalt core X, with an xNUM xNUM core core, X mm ordinary x, with an ordinary core bullet, X x NUM x mm, with an ordinary core, N x 6x49 mm with a modified sleeve and with an experimental bullet with an enlarged core. For comparison, on the right is the Fedorov cartridge of caliber 6 mm

Cartridge 6x49 mm
Under this cartridge prototypes of small arms were developed - sniper rifles TKB-0145K developed by TsKIB SOO and SVK, SVK-S.

Experienced sniper rifles TKB-0145K and SVK, SVK-S

Apparently, the 6x49 mm cartridge is the most developed and promising ammunition developed in the USSR / Russia. How suitable is it for weapons that can be considered as a competitor to the automatic rifle created under the American NGSW program?

As we said earlier, in the case of negative results on the NGSW program, the majority of U.S. military personnel will be armed with traditional weapons chambered for 5,56x45 mm caliber, or weapons under a reinforced cartridge based on cartridges of the 6,5x39 Grendel or 6,8x43 Rem SPC type with an initial energy of 2000-2600 J. In the scenario, the initial energy of a promising 6,8 mm NGSW cartridge can be of the order of 4300 J. This is much more than the 7,62x51 cartridge and even more than the .30-06 Springfield cartridge (7,62 × 63 mm) used in the American M1 Garand rifle.

Semi-automatic American rifle M1 Garand chambered .30-06 Springfield

The initial energy of the 6x49 mm cartridge bullet is about 3300 J, it can probably be increased to 3500-3700 J. This is supposedly lower than the promising American cartridge of the 6,8 mm NGSW caliber, but there is a suspicion that it is one thing to want to get an automatic weapon under the cartridge with the initial energy of 4300 J, another thing is to get it in reality. It is likely that the US military will have to “cut back sturgeon,” and in the process of developing the United States will come to the same 3500-3700 J.

Another argument is that even if the Americans manage to create a weapon that allows firing in bursts with a cartridge with an initial energy of 4300 J, then at short ranges it will lose in accuracy the automatic weapons of a similar layout, made on the basis of a cartridge with lower energy. Thus, a weapon chambered for 6,8 mm NGSW with an initial energy of 4300 J will have advantages over a long range, for example, over 500 meters, when firing with single shots, and a weapon created under a cartridge of 6x49 mm with an initial energy of 3300 J will have advantages at a lower range, for example, to 500 m, when shooting in short bursts.

Long-range shooting, in addition to the necessary and sufficient parameters of the weapon-cartridge complex, also requires appropriate skills from the shooter. It is doubtful that all US Army personnel will be able to realize the capabilities of such weapons, and in this sense, weapons under a powerful cartridge are more effective in the traditional role of Marxian weapons. At the same time, it is possible to fire suppression both with weapons under the promising 6,8 mm NGSW cartridge, and under the 6x49 mm cartridge.

The penetration of modern and promising NIB at the effective fire range should be approximately the same for both cartridges. The smaller estimated energy of the 6x49 mm cartridge, compared to the 6,8 mm NGSW cartridge, is compensated by almost 30% of the greater transverse area of ​​the bullet of the latter. The area of ​​a bullet with a diameter of 6 mm is 28,3 mm2, the bullet with a diameter of 6,8 mm is 36,3 mm2, for a cartridge 6x49 mm with 3300 J it is 117 J / mm2, for a cartridge 6,8 mm with 4300 J it is 118 J / mm2. Accordingly, if the initial energy of the cartridge 6x49 mm is increased to 3500 J, and the cartridge 6,8 mm NGSW is reduced to 3700 J, these figures will be 124 J / mm2 and 102 J / mm2, respectively. Of course, these are fairly general figures, since much will determine the shape and size of the carbide core, the aerodynamics of the bullet, and other factors.

Weapon chuck 6X49 mm

It can not be said that the idea of ​​using a cartridge 6x49 mm instead of an intermediate cartridge is some new one. According to reports, the 6x49 mm cartridge was initially considered as a single ammunition for a promising sniper rifle, machine gun and machine gun, although there is no reliable information about the machine gun. Experimental weapons were tested under the 6x49 mm cartridge — the TKB-0145K and SVK, SVK-S sniper rifles, a PKM-based machine gun and, presumably, an Abakan-based machine gun based on the AN-94.

Concepts of an assault rifle and a Marxman rifle chambered for 6x49 mm, based on an AN-94 assault rifle, made by a member of the guns.ru NEZNAIKO forum

Can the AN-94 assault rifle be reborn like a Phoenix bird and become the basis for a promising rifle complex based on the 6x49 mm cartridge? The answer to this question lies largely in how well the AN-94 design is developed, and how it will work in tandem with the 6x49 mm cartridge, which is much more powerful than the 5,45x39 mm. The main advantage of the AN-94 assault rifle is that it uses a monitors with a shifted recoil momentum, which will potentially allow firing with powerful cartridges of the caliber 6x49 mm in short bursts with acceptable accuracy and accuracy. Presumably the gun monitor is used in one or more weapons developed by the NGSW program.

The carriage scheme was also used in the Stechkin experimental machine TKB-0146, developed as part of the Abakan contest. Despite the fact that the Stechkin TKB-0146 assault rifle lost the test, it could well be finalized at a new level and considered as another weapon model under the 6x49 mm cartridge. By the way, a purely visual device TKB-0146 looks much simpler than the AN-94. The problem of the need for a double recharge in the Stechkin machine can certainly be solved in one way or another.

Stechkin experienced machine gun TKB-0146

Also in a promising machine based on TKB-0146 can be taken into account the achievements obtained during the creation of automatic grenade launcher systems 5,45A-91, 7,62A-91 and ADS (special two-machine gun) developed by KBP JSC (Tula).

Automatic machines 5,45A-91, 7,62A-91 and ADS

Thus, in the framework of a potential Russian competition, in response to the American NGSW program, two participants can be attracted: Kalashnikov Concern with a machine gun based on AN-94 and KBP JSC / TsKIB SOO branch with a machine gun based on TKB-0146. In addition to developing a promising assault rifle for a single 6x49 mm cartridge, as it was planned, a machine gun should be created, for example, based on the Pecheneg machine gun, and a sniper rifle based on the microwave.

Also, to reduce recoil on promising weapons, a closed-type muzzle brake compensator (DTK) can be used. In addition to a significant decrease in recoil, closed-type DTCs significantly reduce the brightness of a muzzle flame and reduce the sound of a shot to values ​​that are safe for hearing - you can shoot indoors without any problems. When firing from a prone position, a weapon with a closed type DTK raises significantly less dust. DTC closed type can be used with supersonic cartridges. By the way, unlike silencers, closed-type DTCs are allowed in Russia for civilian use.

Closed type DTK

The mass of a closed type DTC depends on the number of cameras and averages from 400 grams (tactical series) to 900 grams (machine-gun models). Titanium alloy products weigh approximately 30-40% less. In the manufacture of closed-type DTCs from titanium by the 3D printing method, as is expected for some samples of weapons created by the NGSW program, their mass will be even lower and efficiency will increase.

For example, the Rotor-43 closed-type DTCs easily withstand bursts of fire even with cartridges like 7,62x54R. In this case, the muzzle flame is almost completely removed, the sound volume decreases from 120-140 dB to 72-78 dB. The DTK is quickly put on the weapon and also quickly removed, it is not necessary to introduce additional amendments to the sights of the weapon. Also, replaceable membranes and regular care are not required - DTK “cans” are self-blowing.


DTK for AK-74 5,45X39: shooting
The use of closed-type DTKs made of titanium alloys by 3D printing can be one of the leading trends in the development of promising weapon-cartridge complexes. In combination with a fire monitor, this can really make it possible to move in small arms from small-caliber, low-pulse cartridges to a single cartridge of the caliber 6-7 mm, with an initial energy of the order of 3500 J. There is a non-zero probability that promising closed-type DTCs can reduce returns to such the level at which the application of recoil accumulation schemes is not required, which in turn will significantly expand the list of weapons potentially acceptable for conversion under the cartridge 6x49 mm.

Finale

Why exactly 6X49 mm? Is it not possible to create a completely new cartridge using the latest technology? Of course, the development of a completely new ammunition using the latest advances in the creation of materials and gunpowders, as well as production technologies, will make it possible to obtain a product with higher characteristics than those that can be implemented in the 6x49 mm cartridge. The only question is whether they are being conducted now and what results have been achieved. Cartridge 6x49 mm, and its production technology, with a high probability worked out at a fairly high level. Based on the existing backlog, the 6x49 mm cartridge and weapons for it can be created in the shortest possible time, which will give an adequate and timely response to the American NGSW program, in case of its quick successful implementation. Also affected by the cartridge 6x49 mm can be used as the basis for the development of a new cartridge caliber 6,5-6,8 mm, if it is deemed appropriate. In any case, as mentioned earlier, the diameter of the bullet is far from the only parameter of the cartridge, and the number 6,5 mm is hardly worth considering as an answer to all questions.

On the other hand, the NGSW program cannot be ruled out over time. In this case, we do not need to rush and we can approach the development of a promising ammunition for small arms with more thoroughness, using promising striking elements, materials and layout schemes for ammunition. Of course, in this case, one can not do without the backlog of the Soviet period, but we will talk about this in the next article.

Comments

[Victor Tsenin]

> The 6x49 mm cartridge had better performance compared to the 6x49 mm cartridge with smaller dimensions.

The second 6x54, I think the typo is small.

[Pessimist22]

New is a well-forgotten old one, since the tendency to increase the caliber, then transfer everyone to 7,62,51, AK 308 in the hands of a professional is a very serious weapon, RMB and SVD will also be normal with this caliber, but unification, a powerful cartridge mastered in production. , and then on the development and so on and so forth, billions will go away.

[YOUR]

but with the exception that the cartridge 7.62 * 51 in our country is not produced on the necessary scale. And as I understand it in peacetime, its release requires a license and the restructuring of factory facilities for the production of such cartridges. Or building from scratch. And what's the point?

[SHOPPING MALL]

Quote: YOUR

but with the exception that the cartridge 7.62 * 51 in our country is not produced on the necessary scale. And as I understand it in peacetime, its release requires a license and the restructuring of factory facilities for the production of such cartridges. Or building from scratch. And what's the point?

Produced for hunters, no license needed, it's old. But you are right, there is no point in changing the "awl for soap".

[Dmitry_34]

The "NATO Seven" has a cylindrical sleeve, which can make it difficult to remove it from the chamber, but allows it to build belt-fed machine guns on a single-stage cartridge feed scheme. As they say, choose, but carefully.))

[K-50]

I wonder why the garden fence, inventing a new ammunition.
They will develop a new cartridge for themselves, "catch all the fleas", and bring them to their senses. then on the basis of it and our machine to build. At least the enemy's ammunition can be used if something happens.
For one, we will save on research work, or does someone want to "rip off" a prize for a new development for public money?

[SHOPPING MALL]

Quote: K-50

I wonder why the garden fence, inventing a new ammunition.
They will develop a new cartridge for themselves, "catch all the fleas", and bring them to their senses. then on the basis of it and our machine to build. At least the enemy's ammunition can be used if something happens.
For one, we will save on research work, or does someone want to "rip off" a prize for a new development for public money?

And if we went out into space like that? Why, they would wait until the "s" collect all the bumps ...
Of course, I understand that the scale of the goal is not comparable, because after all, there are also funds for its implementation.

What are the special costs of developing new small arms? Why is a small company, such as Lobaev Arms or others, quite able to afford it?

And if you take the state. factories. There sit engineers and designers on the salary that they get anyway. Making prototypes? So at large factories there is a huge fleet of equipment that is either idle or working, and people with it are also on a salary. In general, reasoning logically, the development of a promising small arms-cartridge complex should not be much more expensive than non-development, or development instead of another bolt rifle or some other highly specialized miracle.

In my opinion, the main thing in this matter is a clear understanding of the customer, what he wants, and iron will in the desire to get what he wants.

[K-50]

Quote: AVM

What are the special costs of developing new small arms?

You did not read my post correctly. Not the development of weapons, but the cartridge.
It’s clear to Kose that we will construct a weapon for any of our own, but after waiting until the Yankens break down with the construction of a new ammunition (maybe they will not get anything good at all, either a new cartridge or weapons based on it, for the first time or something ), we will save a lot of budget and time.

[psiho117]

The Germans after World War I, in order to support the design school, produced sewing machines, tractors, and other crap at arms factories - just to not lose their skill!
And you suggest to sit - and not to do a shisha.
In our country, as compared to the USSR, the design school is in decline ...

[Narak-zempo]

Quote: K-50

They will develop a new cartridge for themselves, "catch all the fleas", and bring them to their senses. then on the basis of it and our machine to build

Once the party and the government made a "wise" decision not to develop computers of their own design, but to copy the time-tested American ones. That automatically guaranteed a lag of 1-2 generations.
Understand that in the process of "stuffing cones" not only is it seemingly wasted efforts and resources, but also experience is gained. As a result, "s" will have great specialists, but we will not.
Then, where to get to young professionals who want to deal with cartridges? Go to the office or, again, go to the States and become THEIR qualified specialists.

Quote: K-50

at least enemy ammunition can be used if something happens

So, after all, they will be able to use ours - that's how lucky. Imagine if we at 30 decided to switch to the Mauser cartridge - what a gift to the Fritz in 41 would be.

[K-50]

Quote: Narak-zempo

So, after all, they will be able to use ours - that's how lucky. Imagine if we at 30 decided to switch to the Mauser cartridge - what a gift to the Fritz in 41 would be.

And whatever gift was ours, especially at the beginning of the war, when both weapons and ammunition with shells were in warehouses on the western border, and the soldiers had a dozen or two on the barrel.

[3danimal]

People, forget, finally, about the massive battles in the style of 2MV. You won’t have to use trophy ammunition.

[Narak-zempo]

Quote: 3danimal

People, forget, finally, about the massive battles in the style of 2MV. You won’t have to use trophy ammunition.

That is, in modern type of conflicts the ability to replenish ammunition at the expense of the enemy is no longer relevant?

[psiho117]

Quote: Narak-zempo

That is, in modern type of conflicts the ability to replenish ammunition at the expense of the enemy is no longer relevant?

Very unlikely for a normal army.
No, the babai find what they find, they use it, but even then - all terrorists now have "sponsors" who are adjusting their equipment.
But if one (or both) of the parties is technically developed, then they have their own supply of ammunition (which went through military acceptance, and they will definitely shoot), and even the commander, without extreme need, will not allow the use of unverified ammunition.
And in general it’s not a fact that the warring parties will have the same calibers ...

[Narak-zempo]

Quote: psiho117

baba

They are actually called "partisans".

Quote: psiho117

And in general it’s not a fact that the warring parties will have the same calibers ...

About that and speech that it is necessary to accept the caliber of the most probable opponent.
Although some cartridges are already in fact international. The same 9 × 19. Even we have new pistols designed for him.

[3danimal]

What for? In what situation?
It looks from the category of "pick up weapons from a dead enemy" (it seemed more interesting). Logistics works, everything is in stock.

[Narak-zempo]

Quote: 3danimal

What for? In what situation?
It looks from the category of "pick up weapons from a dead enemy" (it seemed more interesting). Logistics works, everything is in stock.

There may be some problems in a future world civil war with logistics.

[3danimal]

World Civil? These are kind of conspiracy theories, in my opinion.

[Narak-zempo]

Quote: 3danimal

World Civil? These are kind of conspiracy theories, in my opinion.

No conspiracy theories. It’s already coming, it’s just not yet become world.
So the Second World War before the attack on the USSR and the entry of Japan, the world, in fact, was not. But already from Spain it was clear what was going on.

[3danimal]

It was clear after the Nazis came to power. They didn’t hide their plans especially.
Now there are no such inadequacies among developed countries. (Iranian fundamentalists and the Kimov regime are not included in them)

[Narak-zempo]

As the crisis of capitalism deepens, "inadequacies" will gain strength in the most unexpected places, while the ability of the current hegemons to control the situation in the world will shrink.

[3danimal]

The crisis? Was in 2008, there will be some more. What is a disaster?
Or are you talking about the world victory of communism?
Hegemons have a replaceable government. Thugs in third world countries have too few resources, they can terrorize only their population, maximum neighbors.

[Narak-zempo]

A changing government? You are welcome. There is one "inadequate" Trump. The next step is "inadequate" Corbin and "inadequate" Sanders.

[3danimal]

Trump will not sit in power for more than two terms. And there is the Senate and other elements of checks and balances.

[Felix99]

I wonder why the garden fence, inventing a new ammunition.
They will develop a new cartridge for themselves, "catch all the fleas", and bring them to their senses. then on the basis of it and our machine to build. At least the enemy's ammunition can be used if something happens.
For one, we will save on research work, or does someone want to "rip off" a prize for a new development for public money?

With folk money you need to educate your folk talents. Its designers. Since you advise the countries of Africa and Latin America.

[Pavel57]

- Tell the sovereign that the British do not clean their guns with a brick: even if they do not clean them with us, otherwise, God bless the war, they are not suitable for shooting ....

[maidan.izrailovich]

- Tell the sovereign that the British do not clean their guns with a brick: even if they do not clean them with us, otherwise, God bless the war, they are not suitable for shooting ....

The current generation of Russian gunsmiths is at least no worse than foreign ones. Go and figure out what is good and what is bad.

[3danimal]

No worse. But there are different backlogs in different areas, different experiences. And “there” there are more than one gunsmith.

[Undecim]

At the beginning of the 1970's in the United States, work began under the Squad Automatic Weapon program to create a cartridge for assault rifles and machine guns in order to replace the ammunition 5,56 mm and 7,62 mm.
As a result of the experiments, an 6 × 45mm SAW cartridge was created, as well as a number of small arms samples under this cartridge.

.

[Undecim]

Under the aforementioned cartridge, several samples of machine guns were developed.

Rodman Laboratories XM235 Rock Island Arsenal.

[Undecim]

XM 234 Ford Aerospace & Communications Corp.

[Undecim]

Here are all three experimental machine guns chambered for 6x45 mm: XM234 (Ford, left), XM233 (Maremont, center), XM235 (Rodman Labs, right).

[Undecim]

As you can see, the United States has considerable experience with 6 mm caliber cartridges, especially given that this caliber is widely distributed in the United States on the civilian market and is manufactured by many companies. However, in the NGSW program, the Americans considered it necessary to begin developing a new caliber, taking into account previous experience.
In the USSR in the 1980s, a similar R&D "Gachet" was carried out, within the framework of which, in addition to the samples mentioned by the author in the article, machine guns were also created.

Experienced machine gun AO-64 CRI TochMash.

[Undecim]

TKB-0170 Nevizhin.
The question arises, on the basis of which the author decided that the development of thirty years ago can compete with the development of today?

[Michael HORNET]

6x45 was a more correct concept, IMHO. 6.8 Magnum is already beyond the bounds of physical condition arrow

[SHOPPING MALL]

Quote: Undecim

TKB-0170 Nevizhin.
The question arises, on the basis of which the author decided that the development of thirty years ago can compete with the development of today?

30 years is not such a long time in such a conservative industry as small arms. It is foolish to overlook what has been developed for many years - this is how to build a bike from scratch, with square wheels. Why do you think that new developments in the USA also do not use early developments, which we simply don’t know about?

And I do not propose to put into service the old prototypes of weapons, but I propose to use them as a basis for creating new weapons, taking into account new materials and technological processes. And this is supposedly the easiest option. If there are more modern developments that I don’t know about, then this is wonderful!

[Undecim]

It is foolish to overlook what has been developed for many years - this is how to build a bike from scratch, with square wheels.
And where do I write that it is necessary to sweep away all previous experience in creating small arms?
If we maintain the principle of action, i.e. use the force of pressure of gases generated during the combustion of a propellant explosive for throwing a bullet, then ignoring the previous experience will not work a priori.
However, if we set the task to obtain not a modernized 30-40 sample of summer ago, but to take the next step, to change the paradigm, then we must not use the accumulated information to trample on the spot around the already completed stage, but to move forward, which, in fact, they try to do Once again, the Americans.
And I do not propose to put into service the old prototypes of weapons, but I propose to use them as a basis for creating new weapons, taking into account new materials and technological processes.
Going this way, we will get another incarnation of the Kalashnikov assault rifle under the next caliber, but in a new body kit and "modernized" materials.

[SHOPPING MALL]

Quote: Undecim

At the beginning of the 1970's in the United States, work began under the Squad Automatic Weapon program to create a cartridge for assault rifles and machine guns in order to replace the ammunition 5,56 mm and 7,62 mm.
As a result of the experiments, an 6 × 45mm SAW cartridge was created, as well as a number of small arms samples under this cartridge.

.

Yes, you are right, by the way, he is on the first photo just next to the cartridge 6x49 mm.

[Operator]

All three models of weapons of the caliber 6,8x51 mm presented at the NGSW competition work like clockwork, so there is no reason to expect a decrease in the performance characteristics implemented in them. Another thing is that the two models that use cartridges with a plastic sleeve are expected to fail during the army tests, but their ammunition at any time can be replaced with the same, but with a metal sleeve.

But the prospect of domestic weapons under the Soviet cartridge 6x49 mm foggy:
- muzzle energy is significantly less than that of 6,8x51 mm;
- a powder charge with a longer burning time than 6,8x51 mm requires the use of an elongated barrel with a corresponding increase in the size of the weapon;
- the lag of the USSR in the development of high-strength barrel steels forced the use of an ambiguous solution in the form of a corrugation on a sleeve (compensating for the extension of the barrel chamber), which led to cracking of the sleeve along the corrugation (the place of stress concentration during the formation of the sleeve) during storage.

And in conclusion, the carriage scheme is certainly preferable for a high-pulse automatic machine (since it stretches the recoil momentum for the duration of movement of the moving parts of the automation), but AN-94 cannot be used for firing high-pulse cartridges in any way, since it has two shots at the end of the queue impulses are added, as a result of which the total impulse will deprive the shooter of combat readiness.

So I would not limit myself to simply using the Soviet developments of 30 years ago.

[SHOPPING MALL]

Quote: Operator

All three models of weapons of the caliber 6,8x51 mm presented at the NGSW competition work like clockwork, so there is no reason to expect a decrease in the performance characteristics implemented in them.
...
So I would not limit myself to simply using the Soviet developments of 30 years ago.

I agree, this is not an ideal solution, but I try to consistently consider various options.

[garri-lin]

Well, with impulse, everything is complicated. Although you can delay and then neutralize the counter-pulse. Pull back so as not to knock down the aiming line until the last bullet exits the barrel.

[Operator]

Counter-pulse - how is it?

Small arms firearm scheme is good for everyone - with the exception of reduced accuracy with single shots due to play in the guides of the firing unit.

[garri-lin]

Counter pulse? Yes, anything. Counter mass. And you yourself indicated one more minus of the carriage scheme. With high pulse cartridge.

[haron]

Quote: garri-lin

Counter pulse? Yes, anything. Counter mass. And you yourself indicated one more minus of the carriage scheme. With high pulse cartridge.

I will add that by 94 I had in the concept an increase in "lethality" of a relatively weak 5,45. Due to the almost simultaneous hit of two bullets with a small spread. After the first shot, the rate of fire dropped to standard. This moment and what is given above make it completely meaningless to cross between AN and a more powerful cartridge. And the load on complex parts of the AN will require a multiple increase in their strength due to weight or price (the best material).
Another nuance.
While the Hague rule on the inadmissibility of using expansive, fragmentation, and the fact that will increase the severity of the wound is working. If the world slides into chaos, then the law is zero. The advantage of the one who took this into account in advance ... but this is philosophy. What am I leading to?
It is possible to cross the expansive with armor-piercing, without technological tweaks and rise in price in a larger caliber, 7'62 is that. In addition, armor-piercing depends not only on the total energy, but on the maximum pressure on the minimum contact area. The mass helps keep pressure time longer. the hardness of the material allows you to quickly destroy the integrity of the barrier, at least a little, you can move it further. And plus, beyond the barriers expansiveness is needed. It is sometimes difficult and expensive to combine all this in a small caliber. Well, if we want to lighten the cartridge, then the bimaterial bullet with polymers solves this. And even makes it possible to use Teflon or the like. I think you understand how many benefits even 0,05 mm of coverage brings across the entire area.
Little gunpowder in 7,62-39? Chemistry for what, yes it has long been found. The issue of price and something else has not been resolved, but if there is continued funding, AKM could get more than 3000 j.
The area of ​​the rear of the bullet that the gases press on is the caliber. The more it is, the faster we will disperse the bullet, and this is the length of the barrel.

I recall from physics that energy depends on the square of the speed, and on mass it is only directly proportional. This means that to improve armor-piercing, it is easier to increase speed. But simpler does not mean better. New technologies and materials make the old man 7,62-39 a monster and station wagon to certain limits. It’s better to work on high technology than trying to solve a niche issue by introducing another supply.
IMHO

[Droid]

Quote: haron

I will add that by 94 I had in the concept an increase in "lethality" of a relatively weak 5,45.

He did not have such a concept.

Quote: haron

Due to the almost simultaneous hit of two bullets with a small spread.

Two bullets miss the same target. Especially on 450-600 meters.

Quote: haron

Little gunpowder in 7,62-39? Chemistry for what, yes it has long been found. The issue of price and something else has not been resolved, but if there is continued funding, AKM could get more than 3000 j.

This is not possible for a whole bunch of reasons.

[haron]

[quote = Droid] [quote = haron] I will add that at 94 I had an increase in the concept of "kill" relatively weak 5,45. [/ quote]
He did not have such a concept.
[quote = haron] Due to the almost simultaneous hit of two bullets with a small spread. [/ quote]
Two bullets miss the same target. Especially on 450-600 meters.
If my text, regarding this topic on the Academy of Sciences, is compared with the documents of the Ministry of Defense, then yes, there is no such sequence of words. But if you take the meaning then ... below is also not an official text, but I do not consider it to be logical to deny its meaning. These are the test results of one of the last pre-production specimens later named AN 94,
".. On tests carried out in 1987, the ASM assault rifle showed approximately the same accuracy as the AK74 when firing single shots. When firing at 100 meters from the hands in bursts of 2 shots, A 94 showed a dispersion of Seq = 41 cm, while for the AK-74 this parameter was 138 cm. When firing by experienced “Afghan” shooters, standing with hands at the same 100 meters, the probability of hitting a typical target with one burst (2 shots) for the AFM was 0.63, while for the AK74 it left 0.30. Thus, the AFM showed the required TTZ a twofold increase in the probability of hitting a target with one short burst from unstable positions The "tenfold superiority in accuracy" of the AFM over AK74, mentioned in the press, was in fact expressed in the value of the dispersion areas of Sv * Sb when firing in short bursts of 2 shots each while prone and standing with hands , and having values ​​of 800-1000 cm2 for AFM and about 8000-9000 cm2 for AK74 .... "
Yes. My words about weak "slaughter" are very relative, probably the most correct "efficiency". I consider the concept of stopping action to be extremely meaningless and empty in meaning.
and I did not write about 400 meters.
"... [AKM can receive over 3000 J.
This is impossible for a whole bunch of reasons ... "
Here I completely agree with my mistake. It was necessary to write an 7,62x39 cartridge and the fact that it will only be similar to the classics in external dimensions. But AKM can’t stand such a cartridge for a long time.
The point is that the new weapon could be fed with both old cartridges and new ones with more power and a different design. This gives a greater chance of not being left without ammunition and preserving the advantages of its modern machine. An option to avoid modularity and not to drag extra details.

[Droid]

Quote: haron

But if you take the meaning then ... below is also not an official text, but I do not consider it to be logical to deny its meaning.

Not. The text is completely contrary to your words. The text says - probability of defeatand not two bullets.
For understanding - Seq = 41 cm means that only half of the bullets fall into the square with the side 41 cm. If we shoot 100 bursts of 2 shots, only 100 bullets will fall into this square. The probability that both bullets of the queue will fall into it will be only 0,25, i.e. only in one case from 4's. There was no talk of any defeat at once with two bullets, it is simply very unlikely. The whole point was that if the first bullet misses, then we have a second probability of hitting which is not very different from the first, just because of a fairly high accuracy. Thus, the total probability of hitting at least one of two bullets in 1,5-2 times higher than that of AK74.

[haron]

Not. The text is completely contrary to your words. The text says - probability of defeatand not two bullets.
For understanding ...
Droid
If my text completely contradicts my own words, then what can be said about "Two bullets do not hit one target." ?!
Are you sure that in the format of communication here and now it is necessary to strictly observe the formalities of expressing rather general meanings? I am completely unsure of this. Moreover, with obvious errors that can distort the embedded meaning with probability)) 50% agree and acknowledge.
Before the debate, I try very hard to look for the beam in my own eye, not to waste time on secondary inaccuracies (if they do not change the truth of the meaning) and most importantly I try to understand whether my disagreement and explanation of the reason will be "throwing beads" or simply useless - this is how to live more freely , you can see more around, breathe easier and sleep more calmly.
Hope for understanding

[garri-lin]

The carriage scheme. AN is a representative. One of. In principle, the trend rules in weapons: the simpler the better. But recently, they are stepping back from this. The carriage scheme has advantages and it is necessary to work in this direction continuously. At least for the sake of gaining experience.
And in terms of expansions in the army during the war, you are fundamentally wrong. A simple example. In World War I, some soldiers cut the tip of a bullet crosswise. Read how they dealt with prisoners of war who had such cartridges in their pouches. It was the same during WWII. Plus, firemen usually did not survive in captivity and did not expect an easy death. Well, at the end of the 20th century, especially cruel snipers were also punished. On the "spare wheel rolled" for example.
A good soldier will not be substituted using unnecessarily cruel methods of killing. He understands that the answer will be the same.

[haron]

And in terms of expansions in the army during the war, you are fundamentally wrong. A simple example. In World War I, some soldiers cut the tip of a bullet crosswise. Read how they dealt with prisoners of war who had such cartridges in their pouches. It was the same during WWII. Plus, firemen usually did not survive in captivity and did not expect an easy death. Well, at the end of the 20th century, especially cruel snipers were also punished. On the "spare wheel rolled" for example.
A good soldier will not be set up using unnecessarily brutal methods of killing. He understands that the answer will be everything ... "
Unfortunately I do not need to read, I have something to compare from ... direct visual experience. No one forbade snipers and flamethrowers, and not the love of these enemies did not lead to their prohibition in The Hague and disappearance from the battlefield.
expansively during the war, people deceive themselves, looking for the culprit of troubles anywhere. This is normal.
1. To make a lead-clad bullet look like an expansive, it is not necessary. carry a whole set of tools, enough knife and stone (like a file)
2. 5.45 x 39, 7Н6 due to instability, reversal and high speed on the first 200 meters, it leaves wounds an order of magnitude heavier, for example, the hunting expansive 7,62х39.
Although the work of the latter was seen only on the beast, the anatomy and properties of the tissues are the same.
3. An 7,62 or 308 shell bullet hit after a rebound from anything is often harder than a direct half shell hit.
4. I have never seen a prisoner tortured right away, if the half-shell is not prohibited in the holder of the gun.
If I am still wrong, it will be determined at the end of the discussion and not immediately. Internet communication does not make it possible to see a person's eyes, which means that his experience is not clear. So please, at the expense of wrongness, we will assert later, after studying the arguments of both. Sorry for the moralizing, but I want a vestidialogue and not make excuses. I will gladly accept "you are wrong" if it is not written in the first sentence, but after reliable arguments clearly on the topic.
In general, the topic of the prohibition of half-shells is purely philosophical and partly populist. It is easily circumvented by inventing even worse means of quick killing. She deserves a separate article. Sincerely.

[3danimal]

One science fiction writer described an uber rifle, in the crown two shots were fired forward (bullet) and back (counterbalance), to radically reduce the strongest recoil (although there were problems with the weight)
Maybe it's about this?

[psiho117]

Quote: 3danimal

One science fiction writer

and not even one. As soon as it is necessary to describe a shootout in zero gravity without laser-ballasts, science fiction writers immediately recall the dynamo-reactive principle on which they build their rifles.

[bunta]

The lag of the USSR in the development of high-strength barrel steels forced the use of an ambiguous solution in the form of a corrugation on a sleeve (compensating for the stretching of the barrel chamber)

Just do not la la!

[3danimal]

Refute reasonably, please.

[bunta]

Quote: 3danimal

Refute reasonably, please.

Is this a question for me? When they talk about the technological lag in the USSR in the field of military technologies, I would like to remind once again about the glorious "stamping" because of the "backwardness" of which the AK-47 had to be produced with milled boxes. I already wrote about it. But about the compensation of the chamber stretching - this is something new from the delusional generator of the respected Operator.
The bottom line is that at high pressures, and this cartridge had it up to 4000 atm, the sleeve at the bottom was deformed. Roughly speaking, it flattened, and so that this would not lead to a transverse rupture, such a notch was made in the place of a dangerous section.

The elastic deformations of the locking assembly referred to herein relate to locking systems by skewing the shutter. This does not apply to the systems in which this cartridge was tested, so only the deformation factor of the bottom of the sleeve remains.

[3danimal]

On a number of issues, the lag has formed (the same electronics)))
I just wanted to hear your arguments.

[Narak-zempo]

Quote: Operator

All three models of weapons of the caliber 6,8x51 mm presented at the NGSW contest work like clockwork

This has not yet fallen into the hands of an ordinary user. The one who "broke one ball, lost the second."

[3danimal]

In a professional army there are no ordinary users driven from under the stick. All inappropriate are fired.

[K-50]

Cartridge 6x49 mm had higher characteristics compared to the cartridge 6x49 mm with smaller dimensions.

Is it like that?

[SHOPPING MALL]

Quote: K-50

Cartridge 6x49 mm had higher characteristics compared to the cartridge 6x49 mm with smaller dimensions.

Is it like that?

Thanks, typo, correct.
Of course:

The 6x49 mm cartridge had higher characteristics, compared to the 6x54 mm cartridge, with smaller dimensions.

[illi]

According to reports, the 6x49 mm cartridge was initially considered as a single ammunition for a promising sniper rifle, machine gun and machine gun, although there is no reliable information about the machine gun.

Well, you contradict yourself. If there is no information on the machine for this cartridge. But she is not. So for what available data do you consider this cartridge as a single one? This cartridge was designed to replace the 7.62x54.

The use of closed-type DTC made of titanium alloys by 3D printing can become one of the leading trends in the development of promising weapon-cartridge complexes

What is it that the closed-type titanium DTC gives such that it can become a leading trend? . To remove sound and flame is certainly good in modern warfare. But you write about this in such a way that you get the impression that put the DTK on any weapon with a powerful cartridge and that’s all, the problems are solved. I’m silent about the cost (and they are not cheap) and overweight in such a place.

[SHOPPING MALL]

Quote: illi

According to reports, the 6x49 mm cartridge was initially considered as a single ammunition for a promising sniper rifle, machine gun and machine gun, although there is no reliable information about the machine gun.

Well, you contradict yourself. If there is no information on the machine for this cartridge. But she is not. So for what available data do you consider this cartridge as a single one? This cartridge was designed to replace the 7.62x54.

Such information slipped through several forums and cartridge reviews. It is possible that this is speculation, and therefore it is written:

there is no reliable information about the machine

But even if earlier this cartridge was not considered as a single one, then taking into account new circumstances it may well.

Quote: illi

The use of closed-type DTC made of titanium alloys by 3D printing can become one of the leading trends in the development of promising weapon-cartridge complexes

What is it that the closed-type titanium DTC gives such that it can become a leading trend? . To remove sound and flame is certainly good in modern warfare. But you write about this in such a way that you get the impression that put the DTK on any weapon with a powerful cartridge and that’s all, the problems are solved. I’m silent about the cost (and they are not cheap) and overweight in such a place.

Weight DTK closed type 400-1000 gr. Of titanium will be 250-600 gr. 3D seal from titanium can achieve 150-450 grams - honeycomb structures, structures with hidden cavities, etc. This is a small fee for almost flameless shooting and the absence of shell shock when shooting indoors without headphones, and in the forest / field there is a reduction in unmasking.

According to NGSW data, the reduced recoil potential of closed-type DTCs provides up to 30%. And this is a lot. If you look at the table in the article, then for a weapon chambered for 6x49 mm with a closed type DTC, the return will be like for a weapon chambered for 7,62x39 mm. And for weapons under the cartridge 7,62x39 mm, as for weapons under the cartridge 5,45x39 mm.

[illi]

Well, DTKs, albeit not so advanced, have been putting on trunks for a long time. And it would be incorrect to compare the caliber 6x49 with DTC with the caliber 7.62x39 without DTC. The kolasha did not find exact data on compensation for the DTK. Write about 20%. So with all your desire, you will not get the same return as on 7.62x39

[Operator]

In the NGSW competition, silencers are used instead of closed-type DTCs, including the Brevis print muffler of the American company Delta P Design

weight - 210 g
Dimensions - 94X51 mm
Brevis II - titanium alloy Ti6Al4V
Brevis II Ultra - Inconel 625 Nickel-Chrome Alloy
External ceramic coating

The silencer dampens the recoil of powder gases equal to the product of the mass of the powder charge (~ 2 grams) by the difference in the velocity of the flow of powder gases at the muzzle of the barrel (~ 1250 m / s) and at the outlet of the silencer (~ 300 m / s). That allows a third to reduce the total momentum of the bullet and gases.

[illi]

Well, yes I read about him. I'm talking about something else. DTK set for a long time. On the same AK-74 he was from the very beginning. And also compensated for the return. Here is https://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/54/324647.html dude writes that the standard DTC from the Kalnakh 7.62x39 compensates for 26.1% return. So, in fact, closed DTKs add only silencing, fire extinguishing, cost and weight.

[Michael HORNET]

So it is not enough. Closed-type titanium DTC from GK weighs less than 200 g and in terms of total efficiency exceeds the standard DTC in 7,62x39. The most important thing is that he sharply removes the unmasking factors of the shot, while maintaining the invisibility of the shooter

[illi]

I don’t mind. The author simply expects miracles from the DTK in terms of bestowal. So that the return of the cartridges 6x49 is the same as that of the 5.45x39 and this is hardly possible with at least some dtk

[prodi]

it’s unlikely to put a silencer on a mass production weapon, and not even because of the price and size, but because of the wild soot inside all weapons from firing

[Operator]

Yes, there is such an overgas problem in automatic firing - you need to improve the muffler as an ejector of a tank gun barrel.

[prodi]

you still do not want to understand that in order to reduce recoil with the help of a silencer, it must have a very significant amount. Look, for example, at a screw cutter: after all, he has not only a loose cartridge, but also a well drilled under the muffler, and you want to get the same exhaust with a reinforced cartridge

[Operator]

The minimum volume of the silencer must be such that the powder gas in it expands in proportion to the decrease in velocity at the outlet of the silencer compared to the velocity at the muzzle of the barrel. In other words, for a gas velocity to fall by four times, the volume of the muffler must also exactly exceed the volume of the bore.

Naturally, an increase in the volume of the muffler is only welcome (if possible) in order to reduce its heating with powder gas. But titanium or nickel-chromium mufflers can withstand much higher heating than steel mufflers of the PBS "vintoreza" type.

[prodi]

you continue to misunderstand: if we did not use the exhaust gases on the muzzle brake, but only reduced the rate of their expiration, then we did not reduce the return; and if used, they should bounce off the brake, run BACK, and only then expand and cool

[Operator]

See jet propulsion formula.

[prodi]

and the fact that this movement begins even at maximum pressure at the shutter in the barrel - nothing?

[Operator]

At the moment of the release of powder gases from the barrel, the pressure at the level of 300 atmospheres acts in it - 15-20 times less than the maximum pressure at the time of the shot.

[prodi]

but, now I understand, I thought that you want to get two in one, and instead of using the residual gases on the brake, you just want to slow them down. Well, there must be some kind of effect, much smaller than with a muzzle brake and a very perverse way

[Operator]

The flow rate of gases depends on their pressure - if there are 300 atmospheres in the table channel at the end of the shot, then after filling the additional (to the barrel) volume of the silencer, the pressure decreases, for example, to 75 atmospheres. Gas expands and, in the form of a bonus, also lowers its temperature.

As a result, the rate of gas outflow into the atmosphere drops from 1250 m / s to 300 m / s, in other words - without a silencer, gas leaves the atmosphere within 1 / 500 seconds, and with a silencer - within 1 / 125 seconds (with an interval between shots in 1 / 10 seconds).

[prodi]

about 300 m / s at the output from the real 1000, this, as I already said, will be more adaptable

[Michael HORNET]

No, the return is reduced by the contribution of gases to the return
There is no point in arguing - anyone who has tried knows that when installing a suppressor, the return is reduced. But it’s far less noticeable than when installing a specialized DTK, of course. So the main properties of the suppressor is a decrease in the signature of the shot, and not a decrease in recoil. Titanium is the best material for a suppressor, MUCH superior to all others in terms of a combination of factors

[illi]

Well, duck, the author, together with the operator, are trying to convince everyone that the new titanium suppressor is two in one and even better. That it extinguishes returns better than DTK and also reduces visibility. And at the exit we get a barrel with a powerful cartridge 6x49 or NGSW, but with a return like that of a low-pulse. And all this thanks to the new titanium superDTK

[3danimal]

Improve the smokeless powder used?

[garri-lin]

Titanium is becoming a trend just because of weight. It is much lighter and the unbalance of the weapon will therefore be less. But under the powerful DTK cartridge, you need a large one and here, in addition to weight, ergonomics are also needed. Excess 15 20 cm long weapons.

[haron]

Quote: garri-lin

Titanium is becoming a trend just because of weight. It is much lighter and the unbalance of the weapon will therefore be less. But under the powerful DTK cartridge, you need a large one and here, in addition to weight, ergonomics are also needed. Excess 15 20 cm long weapons.

This is not true. Titanium has very low thermal conductivity, and the energy of gases and their speed are highly dependent on temperature. With frequent firing, the titanium silencer picks up the sound very quickly. Take a look at what these things are made of serious players. Duralumin or alloys of luminium. No titans.

[garri-lin]

Who are the serious players? Concerning military weapons, I recognize the opinion of only "seasoned warriors".

[Michael HORNET]

Closed-type DTK made of titanium is really extremely good as a muzzle device. But it does not significantly reduce the return. With it, only from 6.8 magnum you will not shoot from 5.45

[Earthshaker]

Thanks for the article, I have not heard about this Soviet patron.

[Leomobil]

The laurels of "Ilona Mask" do not give rest to our "managers" We get from the bootleg a piece of a dilapidated footcloth and wiping away tears (from the smell of history) , we read, but unas we have something to answer to the "zaluzhny adversary" cartridge 6x of 45 mm ... Or maybe it will be enough to consider your people a poor cattle, to drive grandmothers into a "cold fusion locomotive" albeit with air conditioning ... In the yard of 21 CENTURY! The unitary cartridge is more than 150 years old, it is the same age as the PAROVOZA ...!

[snc]

Storm in a glass of water. Any cartridge with an energy higher than 7.62 * 39 (the characteristics of our intermediate cartridge were not taken from the ceiling during development) excludes effective automatic fire. For a semi-automatic fire, the usual propeller cartridge is perfectly suitable, what is ours, what is NATO, and what's the point then in these 6.5, 6.8, etc.? Only a qualitative breakthrough in technology will justify the transition to a new cartridge, for example, if problems with accuracy for sub-caliber bullets or the cost and resource of conical trunks are solved, a cheap, compact Gaus in the end.

[SHOPPING MALL]

[quote = snc] Storm in a glass of water. Any cartridge with an energy higher than 7.62 * 39 (the characteristics of our intermediate cartridge were not taken from the ceiling during development) excludes effective automatic fire. [/ quote]

But this is just the question. The United States is setting this task for industry, let’s see how they cope with it.

[quote = snc] For a semi-automatic fire, the usual screw chuck is perfect, what is ours, what is NATO, and what's the point then in these 6.5, 6.8, etc.? [/ quote]

If we talk about 6x49 mm, then compared to 7,62x54 it has a third less weight, like the weapons under it, with similar parameters, and this in itself is very valuable. [/ Quote]

Special forces drags 2000 machine gun cartridges, this is 50 kg. A third less for them is a huge advantage.

[quote = snc] Only a qualitative breakthrough in technology will justify the transition to a new cartridge, for example if problems with precision for sub-caliber bullets or the cost and resource of conical barrels are solved, cheap, compact Gaus in the end. [/ quote]

Perhaps the United States will have such a breakthrough, but maybe not ...

[Simargl]

Quote: AVM

Perhaps the United States will have such a breakthrough, but maybe not ...

The breakthrough will not be with a cartridge case. Even the plastic sleeve is ersatz.
Sleeveless cartridge. Most likely - with a cross section close to square.

[SHOPPING MALL]

Quote: Simargl

Quote: AVM

Perhaps the United States will have such a breakthrough, but maybe not ...

The breakthrough will not be with a cartridge case. Even the plastic sleeve is ersatz.
Sleeveless cartridge. Most likely - with a cross section close to square.

A lot of unresolved problems with a cartridgeless cartridge. Mechanical strength, accidental ignition, storage, etc. Even with polymer sleeves a sea of ​​problems.

PMSM polymer sleeves are limited compatible with the traditional cartridge form factor, most likely with telescopic cartridges.

[Simargl]

Quote: AVM

A lot of unresolved problems with a cartridgeless cartridge.

Well, you need to look for solutions and compromises.

Quote: AVM

rather with telescopic cartridges.

So the telescope is sleeveless!

[SHOPPING MALL]

Quote: Simargl

Quote: AVM

A lot of unresolved problems with a cartridgeless cartridge.

Well, you need to look for solutions and compromises.

Quote: AVM

rather with telescopic cartridges.

So the telescope is sleeveless!

No, a sleeveless one is the one in which everything except the bullet burns, well, and possibly a capsule, for example, as in the cartridge for the German G11 rifle. It is also telescopic:

But telescopic, not necessarily sleeveless. There may be a plastic and metal sleeve, just a bullet recessed into it completely or almost completely:

[Simargl]

Quote: AVM

But telescopic, not necessarily sleeveless. There may be a plastic and metal sleeve, just a bullet recessed into it completely or almost completely:

With a piston - this is a cartridge of the type SP-4: ensuring low-noise shots by locking gases.
Below is a sleeveless cartridge.
I'll try to explain ...
A cartridge is a device that contains a projectile, propellant and initiating substance or device, as well as a housing for holding the entire kit in the kit.
A projectile is a bullet, in particular ...
Throwing substance - usually - gunpowder.
The initiating substance is most often a capsule.
The case is traditionally a sleeve.
We can’t refuse (for now) only propellant and projectile.
The sleeve can be combustible, you can initiate an electric external fuse.
An example of a telescopic cartridge (ordinary, not for silent weapons) is the Nagant cartridge, but there is no sense in its telescopic nature (except in the Nagan itself, for obturation): the mass is higher (excess metal), the volume of gunpowder is the same.
So ... a cartridgeless cartridge, almost square. Perhaps - for an external fuse.
A cartridge with an expelling charge is "the last century", below you are presented with a more progressive version - a fragmented charge knocks out a projectile, and a monolithic one starts burning later.
Why square in cross section? Ensuring mechanical strength: with a square section in contact with other cartridges by a plane, not a line. True, stores are only single-row ...

[SHOPPING MALL]

And how do you like this form factor?

[Simargl]

Quote: AVM

And how do you like this form factor?

I didn’t think about this ...
Why not? Moreover, this can be stacked in 2 series ...

[SVD68]

6x49 has just a qualitative improvement in trajectory flatness, bullet flight time, and the influence of external factors.

[Ironcity]

Yes, everyone who experimented with these 6s experimented. A .243 wines 55 year of birth, in general. The problems are the same: high momentum and weight (for automatic), low barrel life. All combinations of bullet-diameter-speed combinations have been tried for a long time. The NGSW contest is in order to get out of this dead end. Immediately, it’s not the optimal caliber, but the decisions that will help to level the weaknesses of powerful calibers, which made, in due time, switch to a low-impulse one.

[Bormanxnumx]

6,5 mm caliber cartridge, proposed in the 1913 year by V.G. Fedor 1913 year cartridge 6,5x57 mm for an automatic rifle of his own design. For cartridge 6,5х57 mm V.G. Fedorov developed not only standard, but also armor-piercing bullets, with tungsten alloy cores.

In 1913, tungsten just learned how to "clearly" use it for the production of metal-cutting tools and the production of cores for br-bullets from it, at that time, looks like a "bike."

[Undecim]

In 1913, they just learned to use tungsten "distinctly" for the production of metal-cutting tools
1858 year - Muschet steel for metalworking tools - 1,85% carbon, 9% tungsten and 2,5% manganese.
1868 year - the same Musche develops self-hardening steel (self-hardening steel) - 2,15% carbon, 0,38% manganese, 5,44% tungsten and 0,4% chromium.
In the 1901 year, Taylor-White steel.
And in 1904 Crucible steel patents the famous 18 / 4 / 1 (18% W, 4% Cr, 1% V), which is used today as P18.

[Bormanxnumx]

The first br-bullets with a tungsten carbide core, in commercial quantities only after 1935 of the year.

[SHOPPING MALL]

Quote: BORMAN82

The first br-bullets with a tungsten carbide core, in commercial quantities only after 1935 of the year.

Quite a normal period between "offered" (1913) and "in marketable quantities".

[Bormanxnumx]

Quote: AVM

Quote: BORMAN82

The first br-bullets with a tungsten carbide core, in commercial quantities only after 1935 of the year.

Quite a normal period between "offered" (1913) and "in marketable quantities".

Proposed and developed (in your text) are two different things. Jules Verne proposed "Nautilus" in 1870, but they managed to do something intelligible in 40 years, and to be objective, much later)

[riwas]

I am from the book Churbashev E.R. “Inner ballistics”, L, 1975, wrote in BASIC a program for calculating internal ballistics. http://www.sinor.ru/~bukren1/anti_t_b.htm
I checked it for the 7,62-mm Kalashnikov assault rifle - it agreed.
Solving different options, I found an interesting pattern: If the bullet is overweight, then the maximum pressure in the barrel (taking into account the strength of the barrel) comes almost immediately (the bullet manages to move a few millimeters, and normally - 4-6 cm), and then the pressure drops sharply. As a result, muzzle energy drops. The increase in the chamber (gas chamber) volume somewhat saves, but this reduces the number of cartridges in the magazine and increases the weight of the weapon.
So I doubt the achievement of muzzle energy 4300 J for caliber 6,8 mm. The problem can be solved by using a partial reservation of powders, but there are some disadvantages.

[Pavel57]

I am far from weapons issues, but was involved in the mathematical modeling of complex systems. Why it is impossible to calculate the weapon-cartridge system in the space of given parameters and find the optimum in the conditions of fulfilling the given criterion. And then fix the nearest caliber, type of gunpowder, etc.

[riwas]

Not so easy. The solution to the problem is to solve a system of equations of three differential and one algebraic equations by the numerical Runge-Kutta method. Some of the coefficients have to be taken from the tables, depending on the source data.

[Pavel57]

What is missing - equations, optimization methods, computer capacities, or a correctly formulated statement of the problem?

[riwas]

I think this will not be easy. Here is another example. Ballistics is highly dependent on ambient temperature. According to the book, it is proposed to carry out calculations for three temperatures: -40ºС, + 15ºС and + 40ºС, although in reality in the desert in the sun the temperature of cartridges in a store can be significantly higher.

[Pavel57]

If you connect the program with all known dependencies, at least in the form of formulas, or in the form of tables, then count for any temperature, taking into account the temperature in the sun or in the shade. Set the temperature of the powder separately, and the air temperature separately.

[riwas]

I found the right option by brute force, the benefit considers relatively quickly.
The calculation uses the temperature of the air and the powder in the cartridge. The ambient temperature is needed to calculate the external ballistics. See Shapiro Ya.M. "External Ballistics", 1946

[Pavel57]

The problem is solved. And that means the most difficult task is what they want to get as a result.

[Leomobil]

In the elite sect "Shooting (from the word arrow) gunsmiths" - "maaatemAatic model" is an obscene curse You here also remind them of the automated tactical command and control system and then from you, with this model, they will roll under the asphalt ... They need money (a lot!) To continue fighting Kalashmats and microwave ovens.

[Pavel57]

Genetics was once a corrupt girl of imperialism. Then it is clear that the choice of a new ammunition resembles shamanistic dances.

[Simargl]

Quote: riwas

Solving different options, I discovered an interesting pattern:

Hunters and gunners are thoughtful.
What should I do if 12 caliber uses shells from 18 to 64?
Oddly enough, but to use gunpowder with a different burning rate (moderators / composition, grain size, etc.).
Pour the gunpowder into the rifle cartridge - your barrel will burst. If on the contrary - you can catch a bullet on foot ...
... exaggerate ...

[riwas]

So there are a lot of variables for the calculation: the power of the powder (f), the size and type of powder, the loading density, the weight of the powder, the volume of the gas chamber, its relative dimensions, etc.
In the calculation, some variables were fixed: the volume of the gas chamber, the maximum pressure in the barrel, etc. For a given "heavy" bullet, the weight of the powder charge was selected.
Use a "heavy" bullet with a large charge of gunpowder and the barrel will explode.

[SHOPPING MALL]

Quote: riwas

I am from the book Churbashev E.R. “Inner ballistics”, L, 1975, wrote in BASIC a program for calculating internal ballistics. http://www.sinor.ru/~bukren1/anti_t_b.htm
I checked it for the 7,62-mm Kalashnikov assault rifle - it agreed.
Solving different options, I found an interesting pattern: If the bullet is overweight, then the maximum pressure in the barrel (taking into account the strength of the barrel) comes almost immediately (the bullet manages to move a few millimeters, and normally - 4-6 cm), and then the pressure drops sharply. As a result, muzzle energy drops. The increase in the chamber (gas chamber) volume somewhat saves, but this reduces the number of cartridges in the magazine and increases the weight of the weapon.
So I doubt the achievement of muzzle energy 4300 J for caliber 6,8 mm. The problem can be solved by using a partial reservation of powders, but there are some disadvantages.

https://topwar.ru/164134-kalibr-9-mm-i-ostanavlivajuschee-dejstvie-pochemu-762h25-tt-zamenili-na-9h18-mm-pm.html

As an extreme example of small-caliber high-speed ammunition, the Gerlich bullet for conical trunks can be mentioned. Gerlich's bullet diameter was 6,35 mm, the mass of the bullet 6,35 g, the initial velocity of the bullet reached 1740 — 1760 m / s, muzzle energy - 9840 J. This record for bullets of small caliber and low mass has not been broken so far. Gerlich's bullet at a distance of 50 m broke through a hole with a diameter of 12 mm in a steel armor sheet with a thickness of 15 mm, and in a thicker armor made a funnel in 15 mm of depth and a diameter of 25 mm. The usual bullet of a Mauser rifle of 7,92 mm caliber left only a small depression in 2 – 3 mm on such armor. The Gerlich bullet was used in the development of high-speed shells, but in small arms such ammunition did not receive distribution due to the low resource of weapons for them, amounting to about 400-500 rounds.

Or in the same article: Cartridges 7,92x57 mm and 7,92x94 mm with almost the same bullet, with initial energy, respectively, 3567 J and 10673 J

[Simargl]

Instead of Gerlich’s bullet and conical barrel, we tried a barrel of more than 70 calibers ....

[riwas]

That's right, but the conical trunks are not widespread due to the complexity of the manufacture of trunks and rapid wear due to the large work on the compression of the leading belts.
Alternatively, a partial reservation of the powder.

Or in the same article: Cartridges 7,92x57 mm and 7,92x94 mm with almost the same bullet, with initial energy, respectively, 3567 J and 10673 J

About this I said:

The increase in the chamber (gas chamber) volume somewhat saves, but this reduces the number of cartridges in the magazine and increases the weight of the weapon.

[Operator]

Quote: illi

the author, along with the operator, are trying to convince everyone that the new titanium suppressor is two in one and even better. That it extinguishes returns better than DTK and also reduces visibility. And at the exit we get a barrel with a powerful cartridge 6x49 or NGSW, but with a return like a low-pulse

There is no need for gagging - the silencer can absorb no more than one third of the total recoil impulse, for the case of 6,8x51 mm the residual impulse is at the level of the total impulse 7,62x51 mm and is twice as large as the total impulse 5,45x39 mm.

Therefore, more or less heap shooting with bursts of machine gun 6,8x51 mm is possible only when using a gun monitor (which spreads momentum over time), which was implemented in the General Dynamics RM277 model.

In addition, the impulse can be further reduced by firing at the shutter roll, but then you need to switch from gas exhaust to a semi-free shutter, which none of the participants in the NGSW contest decided on.

[riwas]

Somewhere like that. The recoil momentum of the weapon adds up from the momentum of the propellant gases flying out and the momentum of the bullet. The mass of the propellant gases emitted is significantly less than the mass of the bullet. See books: Sergeev M.M. "Theory of muzzle brakes", 1939, Alferov V.V. "Design and calculation of automatic weapons", 1977

[Denimax]

If the cartridge has an advantage, then it makes sense to introduce it and weapons for it for a limited contingent of troops currently fighting. As they are called there, expeditionary or quick response. They should have everything Top.

[psiho117]

Quote: Denimax

... weapons under it makes sense to introduce for a limited contingent of troops now fighting ...

any contingent, though limited, at least not, first of all needs communication, reconnaissance and target designation equipment, it is necessary to bring units and support facilities into one network, with the ability to quickly cause (and receive) a fire attack.
We need drones - both reconnaissance / target designation, and attacking type. Well, high-precision, where would you be without her.

We need advanced air defense and electronic warfare equipment to combat enemy unmanned midges.
Well, it will be very good if the soldier is trained to apply all this on time and to the place.

But the new shooter, alas, is not particularly needed.
The modernization of individual small arms no longer affects the outcome of modern combat - already in the wars of the end of the last century, the proportion of individual weapons on the battlefield did not exceed 10%, now even less.
Only a handful of specialists are interested in a high-quality individual shooter - and they certainly get it.
Therefore, now the army is quite enough machine design 70's, just in new plastic and with a new scope. Well, you can still put a microchip in there, for control / reporting.
All.

[SHOPPING MALL]

Quote: psiho117

Quote: Denimax

... weapons under it makes sense to introduce for a limited contingent of troops now fighting ...

any contingent, though limited, at least not, first of all needs communication, reconnaissance and target designation equipment, it is necessary to bring units and support facilities into one network, with the ability to quickly cause (and receive) a fire attack.
We need drones - both reconnaissance / target designation, and attacking type. Well, high-precision, where would you be without her.

We need advanced air defense and electronic warfare equipment to combat enemy unmanned midges.
Well, it will be very good if the soldier is trained to apply all this on time and to the place.

Small arms do not cancel it all.

Quote: psiho117

But the new shooter, alas, is not particularly needed.
The modernization of individual small arms no longer affects the outcome of modern combat - already in the wars of the end of the last century, the proportion of individual weapons on the battlefield did not exceed 10%, now even less.

You should not compare large-scale conflicts and conflicts of low intensity, such as that in Syria, or was in Chechnya.

Quote: psiho117

Only a handful of specialists are interested in a high-quality individual shooter - and they certainly get it.

A small handful is how much? US MTR is about 70000 people, even though half of them are security, anyway, this is 35000 people. In order for them to get something, this must first be developed.

Quote: psiho117

Therefore, now the army is quite enough machine design 70's, just in new plastic and with a new scope. Well, you can still put a microchip in there, for control / reporting.
All.

Not a fact, let's see what happens in the USA. It is possible that the USSR did not fall apart, we would be the first with a cartridge of 6X49 mm, and the rest would reach for us.

[psiho117]

Quote: AVM

Do not compare large-scale and low-intensity conflicts

Chasing babaev is enough for conventional weapons. What they are developing is extremely redundant for local wars, and can be useful only in the fight against an equal enemy, in the framework of a large-scale clash - for example, infantry in exoskeletons, combat drones, and so that all this could be massively present on the battlefield, and the ordinary infantryman had to to hit these targets ... Oh doubtful.
I do not believe in large-scale conflict.
First, there is no need for them corny - all the goals that were previously achieved by serious powers through war are now feasible using the methods of behind-the-scenes struggle: manipulation of public opinion, economic pressure, bribery of the state. officials, "pink" revolutions, etc.
These methods have already been worked out, and do not bear any risks - the United States has been successfully operating this way for the last 50 years, and has managed to take the position of the world hegemon, having collapsed its rival, the USSR, before it.

Second, the development of deterrence tools has reached such a stage that a serious war with a victorious end has become simply impossible - there will be no winners in a nuclear shootout, everyone will die.

Well, the third - (resulting from the second) - the world is not ruled by presidents and prime ministers, but by banking clans and transnational corporations.
All this elite wants to live well, for a long time and in comfort - and in case of a big war - they can lose all this.

[sh3roman]

Yes, okay, 130 years, they can’t replace the cartridge holder, but here ahead of the United States, you need to stop believing in fairy tales

[bunta]

Quote: sh3roman

Yes, okay, 130 years old, the cartridge cannot be replaced

and why?

[ln_ln]

For tape feed (push-pull), a welt cartridge is better.

[SHOPPING MALL]

Quote: Denimax

If the cartridge has an advantage, then it makes sense to introduce it and weapons for it for a limited contingent of troops currently fighting. As they are called there, expeditionary or quick response. They should have everything Top.

Exactly so, but its cost may be higher, since it does not need to be purchased in quantities of 100 000 000 pcs, and this opens the way for more efficient design solutions.

[Oleg53]

In the 70 years, at the DOSAAF shooting range in Mytishchi, they shot from the rifle of 6,5x54 cartridges with a rant. I do not know the parameters of this cartridge, but I remembered that at a distance of 300 the bullet falling into the sand was heated to the state that lead flowed out of it. The rifle was used for precision shooting .. If we talk about automatic weapons, then their use occurs at distances shorter than 100m. Modern military conflicts occur outside the trenches ... in the first place is the reliability and simplicity of the design, the squirrel in the eye does not need to get into the carcass enough. the caliber 7,62x39 if it cannot break through a promising bronik will inflict such a wound that the enemy cannot fight ...

[Klausfuks]

I read the comments. Well, these are simply masterpieces! Who will change the system! The weapons system in the Russian Federation?! Yes, this is nonsense! What kind of tungsten is in the cores?! Count! You have come to the conclusion that it is cheaper to use depleted uranium. In tanks! Artillery and anti-aircraft shells. The 6x49 cartridge is an excellent ballistics cartridge. Reconciliation of it in automatic weapons with a high rate of fire is checked and not necessary. And further. What three de printers?!!! What are you carrying?! Until the technology is developed, no one will use it on small arms for the army. Especially for the Russian army. The widespread use of polymers turned out to be a complete failure of the g 36 rifle in Afghanistan.

[Engineer]

Concepts of an assault rifle and a Marxman rifle chambered for 6x49 mm, based on an AN-94 assault rifle, made by a member of the guns.ru NEZNAIKO forum

Is it done in Paint or Photoshop?

[tracer]

Skipped this article. Great article, great. While I read "obliquely". I'll be back from the post-fire, but it's very interesting.