Mongols in Russia. 1238 Campaign of the Year


Having learned about the tragic events in the neighboring Ryazan principality, the Grand Duke of Vladimir Yuri Vsevolodovich divided his troops into three parts.


Mongols in Russia. 1238 Campaign of the Year

Grand Duke Yuri Vsevolodovich, fresco in the Archangel Cathedral of the Kremlin

With a part of his squad, he went to the Volga forests, to the River City, hoping that the squads of Yaroslavl, Rostov, Uglich and Novgorod would join him there. The second detachment was left by him in the capital, the third, which was headed by the son of the Grand Duke Vsevolod and voivode Yeremey Glebovich, was sent to Kolomna, the last Ryazan city, which still closed the path to his lands to the Mongols.


The battle of Kolomna and the fall of this city


With the remnants of the Ryazan army, there was the son of the deceased Yuri Ingvarevich - Roman. But for the Vladimir prince, this was no longer a help to the dying Ryazan principality, but competent actions to protect their lands. Kolomna, where the Moscow River flows into the Oka, has always been a strategically important city, the loss of which opened the way for the Mongols to Vladimir, Suzdal, Moscow, Dmitrov, Yuriev. Later, it was Kolomna that would become the traditional gathering place for Russian troops to repel another Tatar raid.


Kolomna. Engraving from the book of Adam Olearia

The battle for Kolomna lasted three days and became the largest field battle of the first campaign of Batu to Russia. Moreover, it was in her that the son of Genghis himself, Kulhan, was mortally wounded: he became the only Genghiside killed during the military campaign for the whole history Mongol conquests. Since the Mongol military leaders never fought in the forefront, but led the battle, being in the rear, they believe that during the battle the Russian heavy cavalry managed to break through the enemy’s battle formations, but, apparently, was surrounded and destroyed. After this battle, the Mongols besieged Kolomna for another three days.


Solodkov A., “The Capture of Kolomna”. Kolomna Museum of Local Lore

From the Russian side, Ryazan Prince Roman Yurievich and Vladimir Voivode Yeremey died in this battle. Rashid ad Din reports:
“They fought fiercely. Mengu-kaan personally performed heroic deeds until he defeated them (Russian) ... After that they (Mongols) also captured the city (on) Ike (Oka). The kulcan was wounded there, and he died. One of the Russian emirs, named Urman (Roman), came out with the army, but he was defeated and killed, together they took the city of Makar (Moscow) in five days and killed the prince of the city, named Ulaitimur (Vladimir). ”

Vsevolod Yurievich managed to break into Vladimir, where he died during the siege of this city by the Mongols - February 7, along with his mother and brother Mstislav.


Maximov A. Mongols at the walls of Vladimir

During the siege of Vladimir, part of the Mongol army moved to Suzdal. The city squad met the Mongols at the Big Settlement, where the village of Yakimanskoye is now located, and was defeated there. The remaining defenseless city was stormed.

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Khan Batuy in Suzdal. 16th Century Miniature

From Vladimir to Torzhok




Torzhok, engraving of the 16th century

After that, part of the Mongolian army, headed by Batu Khan and Subedai, went to Torzhok, capturing Yuriev, Pereyaslavl, Dmitrov, Volok Lamsky and Tver along the way. (That year, in addition to the cities mentioned hereafter in the article, Yuryev-Polsky, Starodub-on-Klyazma, Galich-Mersky, Yaroslavl, Uglich, Kashin, Ksnyatin, Dmitrov fell under the blows of the Mongols.)

The siege of Torzhok began on February 21 and lasted 2 weeks. In the Novgorod First Annals, this is how it is said:
“The Tatars came and besieged Torzhok ... and they surrounded the whole city with thunder, just like other cities took ... and fired at the Tatars with stone-mortar guns for two weeks and people were exhausted in the city, but from Novgorod they had no help because everyone was at a loss and fear. ”


And these are the lines of the Tver Chronicle:
“The pagans took the city, killing all - both men and women, all priests and monks. Everything is plundered and scolded, both in bitter and in miserable death ... March 5. "

The Mongols traveled some more distance towards Novgorod, but from the Ignach Cross (this could be a crossroads, or actually a cross by the road) they turned back.

In 2003, in the Novgorod region near the Polet river near the village of Yazhelbitsy, a memorial sign was erected in honor of this event:


Memorial sign Ignach-Cross, Novgorod region

Other Mongol detachments moved in search of the Grand Duke - to Yaroslavl, Gorodets and Rostov.

Yuri Vsevolodovich by the river Sit


And the Grand Duke Yuri Vsevolodovich at that time gathered his troops near Sitya.

Now this river, on the banks of which in March 1238 of the year one of the most terrible and tragic battles of the Batyev invasion took place, flows through the territories of the Tver and Yaroslavl regions. Previously, it was the right tributary of the Mologa, now it flows into the Rybinsk reservoir.


The Sit River in the Tver and Yaroslavl Regions. Tver Oblast highlighted

At present, it has become very shallow, and it is hard to believe that in March 1238, many Russian soldiers drowned in it.


The source of the Sit river near the village of Saburovo



Sit river in the Yaroslavl region, modern photo

Here Yuri Vsevolodovich stopped, waiting for the retinue of brothers and nephews.


Grand Duke Yuri Vsevolodovich. Engraving from the book of William Took "History of Russia from the founding of the monarchy by Rurik to the reign of Catherine II." 1800



Yuri Vsevolodovich and Bishop Simon of Suzdal. Monument in Nizhny Novgorod

His brother Yaroslav, who had ruled in Kiev since the 1236 of the year, also controlling Novgorod (where his son Alexander was now) and Pereyaslavl-Zalessky, did not come to the rescue. Considering what happened on the shores of the City, this was probably for the better: the Russian squads did not die here because of their small numbers, and the presence of another detachment would hardly have changed anything.


Grand Duke Yaroslav Vsevolodovich. Portrait from the Titular 1672


The helmet of Yaroslav Vsevolodovich, thrown by him after the battle on Lipitsa. Found in 1808 near Yuryev-Polsky, a peasant woman collecting nuts

Four princes brought their soldiers - the brother of Yuri Svyatoslav and his nephews Vasilko, Vsevolod and Vladimir.

Historians still argue about the gathering place and camp of this rather large army (as well as the place of battle). Some believe that it was the headwaters of the Cit River, others claim that everything happened near its mouth, while others are convinced that Russian troops were stationed in several camps along the entire length of the river. As a result, commemorative signs in honor of this tragic battle were erected in two regions - Yaroslavl (Neruz district) and Tver (Sonkovsky district).


Monument in honor of the Battle of the City near the village of Lopatino, Yaroslavl Region


Memorial sign in honor of the Battle of the City in the Sonkovsky district of the Tver region (near the village of Bozhonka)

Most historians are still inclined to believe that Russian troops were forced to stretch from the mouth of the City to the village of Bozhonki. It was almost impossible to set up one large camp because of the lack of the necessary space and the difficulty in organizing its supply. Therefore, part of the detachments stood in the surrounding villages, part - in the field - a narrow strip for over 20 kilometers. On the eastern bank, which was considered the safest, between the villages of Semenovskoye and Krasnoye, the Spare Regiment was set up, which could be sent to help both to the center of Russian positions and to the north.

There is no agreement on the date of this battle. The official date is March 4 1238 of the year. But some researchers are sure that it happened on the 1 of March, or on the 2 of the same month.

It is believed that the battle here, as such, was not. Indeed, in European and Persian chronicles of the XIII-XIV centuries, only a sudden attack of the Mongol detachment on the camp of Yuri Vsevolodovich, ending in the death of the Grand Duke, is reported. And his soldiers, in this case, apparently randomly retreated, becoming easy prey for the Tatars pursuing them.

The Novgorod First Chronicle speaks of the same thing:
“And the prince began to set up a regiment beside him, and all of a sudden hurry to Tatarova; the prince didn’t have time to run away. ”

The death of the Grand Duke in this source is said mysteriously and vaguely:
“God knows how he died: many speak more about him.”


The author of the Tver Chronicle also leaves the answer:
“Cyril, the bishop of Rostov, was at that time at Beloozero, and when he came from there, he came to Siti, where the great prince Yuri died, and only God knows how he died, they tell us differently about this.”


M. D. Priselkov (Dean of the Faculty of Social Sciences of Petrograd University, and then Dean of the History Department of Leningrad University), for some reason believed that Yuri Vsevolodovich could be killed by his people when he tried to stop the running soldiers.

In general, despite many sources, the Battle of Sith remains one of the most mysterious battles of that time.

The mysterious commander of the Mongols


On the way to the City, the Mongols took Rostov, Yaroslavl, Uglich, Vologda and Galich-Mer. Who led their troops in this movement towards the City and in the battle itself? In the Ipatiev Chronicle it is reported that it was Burundai - the main commander of Batu Khan after Subaedei returned to Mongolia (there Subedei will also die in 1248). The Mongols themselves said that Burundai “has no pity, but only cruelty and honor”. He enjoyed great authority both among Batu Khan and among the Russian princes, who turned to him with requests to resolve their disputes.

However, the Ipatiev Chronicle also claims that Yuri Vsevolodovich died not in the City, but in Vladimir, which is absolutely wrong.

But other sources (including Mongolian) do not report anything about the participation of Burundai in the first campaigns of Batu Khan. Some researchers consider the instructions of the Ipatiev Chronicle about the victory of Burundai in the Battle of Sith and its participation in the siege of Kiev in 1240 as later inserts. In this case, for the first time in Russia, this commander found himself during a punitive campaign against Daniil Galitsky - in 1259-1260.

But who then could command this part of the Mongolian army?

The “Secret Legend of the Mongols” says that the Great Khan Ogedei, having received news of a quarrel at a banquet, where his son Guyuk and granddaughter of Buri insulted Batu Khan (this was described in the article Mongols in Russia. First strike), angrily says:
“Didn’t your son imagine that you conquered Russia alone, and that’s why you were allowed to mock your elder brother so much and the will to go against him ?! Conducted into the battle by Subegadei and Buzhegom, you overthrew the Russians and the Kipchaks by force. ”


From this passage it becomes clear who, in fact, had true power over the army in the Western campaign of the Mongols: the first was named Subudey, the second - Buzheg (Buzhek), the grandson of Genghis Khan, the son of Toluy. Perhaps it was he who was the commander who defeated the Russian troops in the City.

Battle of the City


The beginning of the battle, many now propose to date the 2 of March to the 1238 of the year, and the 4 of March to be considered the end date of the battle, when the Russian troops opposing the Mongols were completely destroyed.

The main mystery of the Battle of Sith is the unexpected appearance of the Mongols. Apparently, only the guard regiment, which was headed by governor Dorozh, was in relative combat readiness then. But here, the Russian troops were taken by surprise: the Mongol strike led to a panic and complete disorganization of separately standing units, many of which did not even have time to line up for battle.

There was probably no classic “right battle” in the Sith battle: there were numerous clashes between the Mongols and scattered Russian troops and their subsequent pursuit. Moreover, blows, according to many historians, were inflicted in at least three places.


One of the alleged schemes of the battle of Sith

The first episode was the battle of the Watchtower Regiment, it could happen near the villages of Mogilitsa and Bozhonka - in the upper reaches of the City River. It is believed that this regiment was attacked at night.

The Trinity Chronicle says:
“And Dorozh came running, and a speech: now, prince, let the Tartars pass us by ... We were waiting for them from Bezhetsk, and they came from Koya.”


That is, the Mongols came from two sides - from Koya (which came as a surprise to the Russian commanders), and from Bezhetsk (from where the Russian military leaders expected them).


Unexpected Mongol attack on the Sith camp, modern illustration

The second episode is an attack on the units in the center, headed by Prince Yuri Vsevolodovich himself: near the villages of Stanilovo, Yuryevskaya, Ignatovo and Krasnoe. It is believed that the Russian regiments were completely destroyed here. Some sources report that the Russians were driven out to the ice of the City and drowned, there were so many corpses that the bodies blocked the river - the nearby inhabitants for a long time called this place "rafts". Sometimes you can read that the severed head of Yuri Vsevolodovich was sent to Batu Khan.

The Tver Chronicle says:
"Bishop Cyril found the prince’s body, but didn’t find his head among many corpses."



V.P. Vereshchagin. Bishop Cyril finds Grand Duke Yuri on the battlefield by the River Cit

But in the I Sofia Chronicle you can read:
"Then I brought the head of Grand Duke Yury and put you in a coffin to his body."


This was reported in the Simeon Chronicle. But, in this case, it is not clear who and why cut off the head of the Grand Duke.

In the third episode, the regiment of the right hand and the ambush regiment took part - this could happen in the area of ​​the villages of Semenovskoye, Ignatovo and Pokrovskoye.

From here the Russians fled north, the Mongols drove the retreating for many kilometers.

The result of this battle was a catastrophic defeat of the Russian squads. In addition to Grand Duke Yuri Vsevolodovich, Yaroslavl Prince Vsevolod Konstantinovich and Vladimir governor Zhiroslav Mikhailovich died in it. Prince Vasilko of Rostov was captured. It is alleged that he was killed after he refused to change his faith and go to the Mongols to serve.


The Tatars are trying to force Prince Vasilk Konstantinovich to accept their faith. 16th Century Facade Thumbnail

Later, his body was found in the Shernsky forest and buried in the Rostov Assumption Cathedral.


The assassination of Vasilko Konstantinovich, medieval miniature

The story about the requirement of the Mongols to change their faith raises great doubts, since they were not engaged in missionary activity in the conquered territories. But their proposal to switch to the service seems quite reliable: the Mongols always took part of the soldiers of the defeated side to participate in subsequent military campaigns, and Prince Vasilko could become the commander of the Russian allied units. The participation of Russian soldiers in the European campaign of the Mongols is confirmed by both European and Eastern authors. So, in the "Great Chronicle" of Matthew of Paris, a letter is given of two Hungarian monks, where the Mongol army is said:
“Although they are called tartars, there are many false Christians (Orthodox) and komanas (Polovtsy) in their army.”


In another letter placed in this Chronicle (from the head of the Franciscan order in Cologne), it is reported:
"Their number (" tartar ") is increasing day by day, and peaceful people who are defeated and subjugated as allies, namely a great many pagans, heretics and false Christians, are turning into their warriors."



"Tartarin" on the thumbnail of the "Great Chronicle" of Matthew of Paris, possibly Russian or Polovtsian

And here is what Rashid ad-Din writes:
"What has been added lately, consists of Russian troops, Circassians, Kipchaks, Madjars and others who are attached to them."


The losses of ordinary Russian soldiers in the Battle of Sith were huge, the Rostov Bishop Kirill, already mentioned by us, who visited the battle site on the way from Beloozero to Rostov, saw many unburied and half-corpse animals.

But why was Yuri Vsevolodovich so reckless?

He probably believed that the Mongols who came from the steppes simply could not find his army in the impenetrable Trans-Volga forests.

Indeed, it is difficult to believe that the Mongols, who first appeared in these places, managed to do this on their own. At least numerous and experienced guides were needed. Consequently, the Mongols found allies who not only informed them of the gathering place of the Russian squads, but also led them to the camps of the Vladimir prince. One even had to hear a rather unexpected version that it could have been people who did not come to the city with his brother Yuri Vsevolodovich - Yaroslav, who really wanted to occupy the grand-ducal Vladimir table. He avoided the war with the Mongols, and in the autumn of 1239, he completely became an ally in the war against the Chernigov principality (he captured the city of Kamenets, in which Mikhail Chernigovsky’s family tried to take cover). To document this version at the present time, of course, is impossible.

Some researchers, referring to the Bulgarian sources, argue that the main protagonists of the Battle of Sith were not the Mongols, but the Bulgarian troops that came with them, as well as a number of Nizhny Novgorod soldiers. If you believe these news, you can understand why the "Tatars" were so well oriented in the forest area, and were able to secretly approach and surround the army of Yuri Vsevolodovich.

The riddle of the "Evil City".



Defense of Kozelsk. Thumbnail from Nikon Chronicle, 16th Century

In 2009, the small town of Kozelsk (Kaluga Region) was awarded the title “City of Military Glory”. The case is extraordinary and, in its way, unique, because that year marked the 770 anniversary of the semi-legendary events that took place in the 1238 year.

Recall that the army of Batu Khan then allegedly besieged this small and unremarkable fortress for 7 weeks - despite the fact that the entire Mongol campaign in 1237-1238. lasted about five months. For this, it’s as if the Mongols called Kozelsk “The Evil City” (I can Bolgusun).

We must say right away that information about this truly epic siege of a small town (the garrison of which, according to some annals, made up only 300 warriors) immediately causes distrust among any unbiased historian. Because the Mongols knew how to take fortresses. And they proved it perfectly, in the same 1238 year, quite easily and quickly capturing the much larger and more protected Russian cities, in which there were large detachments of professional soldiers. Ryazan fell on the sixth day, Suzdal on the third day, the Mongols approached the capital of North-Eastern Russia Vladimir 3 on February 7 and captured him on February 2. Only Torzhok resisted 7 of the week. And Kozelsk - as many as XNUMX weeks! Why? The answers to this question are striking in their naivety and can satisfy only the inexperienced reader. If you convey the arguments of the supporters of the traditional version in your own words, you get something like the following:

Kozelsk was located on a hill and protected from the east by the Zhizdra River, from the west by Drugusnaya, and in the north, as if, a canal was dug between these rivers. In addition, the city was protected by an earthen rampart and a wooden wall with towers.

And the pictures are drawn accordingly.

Here is such an "impregnable fortress Kozelsk":


Ancient Kozelsk, reconstruction:


Kozlov A. Ancient Kozelsk:


Funny, isn't it? It is unlikely that these simple fortifications could surprise the Mongols who took cities such as Otrar, Gurganj, Merv, Nishapur and Herat.

Mongol warriors next to the siege weapon. Thumbnail from Rashid al-Din

Others say: Batu Khan was stuck near Kozelsk, as he "fell into the trap of spring thaw."

Well, let’s say, but why don’t the Mongols, from nothing to do, immediately take this city? Everything, some kind of "entertainment". And a certain amount of provisions and fodder for the Mongols "stuck in the mud" will also not be superfluous. Why just stand at its walls?

By the way, did you wonder what the Mongols themselves and their horses ate for 7 weeks?

Of course, there are stories about the village of Deshovka, whose inhabitants allegedly supplied the Mongols besieging Kozelsk with provisions, for which they were nicknamed "nasty", and their village received the second name - Pogankino. True, there is another version of the origin of the name of this village recorded in the 19th century: it was as if the Tatars abandoned the "cheap", that is, prisoners of no great value, who later founded this village. And the third version, according to which this village even appeared only in the XVII century.

One way or another, the inhabitants of this village could not feed the army of Batu Khan 7 for weeks, even with a very great desire.

Another question: why did the Mongols really need Kozelsk? What happened in this city? Why did the Mongols need to take it without fail? The Grand Duke did not sit in this city, whose capture (or his death) would certainly affect the degree of resistance of the remaining lands. Kozelsk was not a rich city, the capture of which would more than compensate for the loss of time and human losses. And he was not the last of the unoccupied Russian cities.

Another question: if little Kozelsk defended itself from the Mongols for as long as 7 weeks, what did other Russian princes do at that time? Indeed, during this time they should have been informed that the previously invincible army of Batu Khan stood at a small fortress, unable to take it. This could be explained only by the extreme weakness of the invaders, who, apparently, during the campaign suffered huge, simply critical, losses and are completely bloodless. Why, then, not try to strike from the rear? No, not because the princes that remained unbroken are entirely patriots of Ancient Russia, but with the goal of recapturing the huge booty from the Mongols. Smolensk is very close, and not affected by the invasion. Chernihiv was not hurt at all - and Kozelsk, by the way, is the city of this principality (one can at least somehow explain Mikhail Chernigovsky’s refusal to help Ryazan, but he must defend his own cities). And even the Principality of Vladimir after the defeat on the River Sit is not completely defeated and not broken: the squad of the new Prince Yaroslav Vsevolodovich is intact, and his son Alexander (not yet named Nevsky) is sitting in Novgorod. And, most importantly, if the Mongols really got stuck at Kozelsk, they can now be attacked with almost impunity: other Genghisides, even very angry with the defeat of their comrades-in-arms, in the face of rapidly approaching debauchery, will not be able to return to Smolensk, Chernigov or Vladimir. And maybe they don’t even want to go there: the enemies of Batu Khan - Guyuk and Storms, are likely to be very happy about his defeat. But, no, Russian princes do not go to the aid of the heroic Kozelsk, they do not need neither honor, nor glory, nor fabulous booty.

In general, solid questions that are easier to ask than at least try to answer them.

But some researchers still tried to answer. So, when studying the Bulgarian sources, information was found that the siege of Kozelsk lasted not seven weeks, but seven days, which no longer causes pronounced cognitive dissonance. Of course, there are many days of resistance for this fortress, but there is a version (also Bulgarian) that offers a fairly rational explanation: supposedly, somewhere in the woods near the city, Kozelsk's horse squad was hiding, which made unexpected attacks, attacking the Mongols from the rear. And on the seventh day, the combatants who remained in Kozelsk broke through to meet their comrades, and with them went to Chernigov. And the city, left without defenders, immediately fell. That is, it was not a desperate sortie that ended, according to the official version, with the death of the Kozel squad, but a well-prepared and successful attempt to break through.

This version seems quite plausible, but does not explain the nickname “Evil” given by the Mongols to this city. And it was suggested that Kozelsk’s not fierce and desperate resistance was the reason: for the Mongols, Kozelsk was initially “Evil”, since his current prince, twelve-year-old Vasily, was a grandson of Prince Mstislav - Kozelsky and Chernigov. The one who took part in the murder of the Mongolian ambassadors before the battle on Kalka. It was in order to punish the inhabitants of the "Evil City" that the Mongols lingered at the insignificant Kozelsk. The weak point of this version is the fact that just at that time the Smolensk prince was another participant in this battle - Vsevolod Mstislavich, who, moreover, was also the son of Mstislav Stary, who, along with Mstislav Udatny, decided to kill the ambassadors. But the army of Batu Khan for some reason passed by Smolensk.

In general, historians, apparently, will not solve the riddle of the “Evil City” of Kozelsk soon.
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  1. Gardamir 19 November 2019 06: 26 New
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    What is interesting on old engravings of the Russian Tatars can not be distinguished. In the paintings of the 20th century, the Mongols are drawn. And why is the engraving called King Batu, and not Khan?
    1. Nagaibak 19 November 2019 07: 20 New
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      Gardamir "And why is engraving called King Batu, and not Khan?"
      “But in the middle of the XIII century, as a result of the weakening of Russian lands after feudal fragmentation and civil war, Russia fell under the influence of the Tatar-Mongol khans. And here a very interesting transformation takes place - the tsar’s title is transferred to the title of Khans of the Golden Horde. It would seem that Khan Zolotoy from a religious point of view, he certainly does not have any right to be named as the Roman and then Byzantine emperors were named in Russian chronicles, but nevertheless, this relationship worked here - the tsar is higher I don’t have anyone. In general, it should be noted that the Tatar-Mongol invasion was certainly perceived unambiguously - it’s a retribution for sins, this is a kind of punishment from above. We must not forget, after all, from the Christian point of view, all power is power from God, Tatars "This is a bad power, of course. From a secular point of view, it is that power that makes constant raids, which forces the Horde to pay, which preserves this process of feudal fragmentation." But it is a power that is given from God and given for sins. Therefore, there is no contradiction that the Khan of the Golden Horde begins to be called the royal title .... ""
      “It is very interesting that the Russian annals evaluate the khans differently, never betraying them that they have the right to the tsar’s title. For example, Khan Takhta was called“ the good king. ”Why - because it is a khan in which there was not a single raid on the Russian lands, or, for example, the “harsh tsar" of Uzbek, as you know, under the khan of Uzbek, several campaigns were made, which, oddly enough, were led by Moscow princes, at first it was Yuri Danilovich, then Ivan Danilovich Kalita and therefore he is stern, but he is still king, or else the “good king” Jah Ibek, again, as is known, under Janibek, who ruled after the Uzbeks in the 1350s, relations between the Russian principalities and the Golden Horde were very loyal, especially after the visit of Metropolitan Alexy to the capital of the Golden Horde. According to legend, Metropolitan Alexy cured blindness was the sister of Khan Janibek Taydullah. Therefore, the relationship was good and this was reflected in the fact that he was called “the good king.” Dmitry Stepanov, candidate of historical sciences
      1. Gardamir 19 November 2019 09: 47 New
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        Dmitry Stepanov
        I can’t argue with the historian, but it seems to me in those days to exaggerate the role of Christians. Yesterday's pagans suddenly became Christians, as one. I think everything is much more complicated.
        1. Alexander Suvorov 19 November 2019 10: 29 New
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          Gardamir
          Yesterday's pagans suddenly became Christians, as one.
          Well, it’s as if 250 years passed from the moment of baptism to the invasion, and this is from a dozen generations of the time, so they are clearly not “yesterday's pagans”!
          but it seems to me in those days to exaggerate the role of Christians.
          The leading role of the church at that time, and even the princes, could not compete in influence with the patriarchs of the church.
          1. vladcub 19 November 2019 18: 54 New
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            This is so, but with a slight clarification: at that time the Orthodox Church was headed by the bishop in Vladimir-Suzdal.
        2. Hantengri 19 November 2019 10: 49 New
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          Quote: Gardamir
          Yesterday's pagans suddenly became Christians, as one. I think everything is much more complicated.

          Do not look for difficulties where they are not. The pagans treated the gods very pragmatically. One more, one less ... If only there was any use!
          "... and Orm said to his people:
          - He says that we should worship his god. They have only one god, whose name is Allah and he does not love other gods. I think that his god is very powerful in this land, and our gods are powerless so far from their homeland. We will be better treated if we follow the customs of this people ... "

          "Many of my people were baptized seven times, and for the first time they were offered so little!"
          (c) "Dragons of the sea"

          And if, after baptism, luckiness also increased ... So a good god - we must take it! laughing
    2. Civil 19 November 2019 08: 48 New
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      Well, the story of Kozelsk "fell" ((((
      1. Nagaibak 19 November 2019 09: 06 New
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        Civil "Well, here's the story about Kozelsk" fell "((((
        Everything is going to sweep away everything. Reduce our entire history to the level - this was not.)))
        1. haron 20 November 2019 08: 31 New
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          Well, why direct everything sweep away. Sweep away the fiction from the one closest to the truth. In a specific case, the author only cites the terms indicated in some sources of that time, which differ from the most heroic version of the big reality. But why for so long and how the siege took place, here the author has the right to present his version, because in the annals there is no clear reason and course of events. However, like any other can state if there is something.
          IMHO. There are such cases when the whole army is not sent to a small reference point, no matter how logical. And after the city, what fatigue was there. That is, at the beginning they sent to Azelsk ... well, we can a couple of hundred so that they would shout - your khan kirdyk, now our khan is your khan. From that moment, the countdown began. But the walls of small cities are often the same as those of large ones, and you won’t take a hundred of them .... although they tried to see. And here, back in the castle city, the Tengri was in trouble with hefty epic pitching with brains, with knives and evil.
          By the way, maybe someone ran to the city there, such as a collection point. And the Mongols learned about this already about the course of the waltz, when the stars and holes in their carcasses painfully looked beautiful and familiar.
          In general, every day the Basurmans thought that now just one more hundred is enough - they need to be in kind, bring shame on the nesting house all the horde (to share the loot as we will later). How many are there who are left after the city?
          In short, they pulled the cat by the eye. While ours are not tired.
          It’s a very heroic version.
          1. Nagaibak 20 November 2019 12: 54 New
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            haron "shame on a birdhouse to bring the whole horde."
            I think Kozelsk was not a birdhouse as painted in the pictures.
            1. haron 21 November 2019 08: 31 New
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              Quote: Nagaibak
              haron "shame on a birdhouse to bring the whole horde."
              I think Kozelsk was not a birdhouse as painted in the pictures.

              This is my grandmother said so))
              Maybe not. Nonikak kiyov or Uladimir
              1. Nagaibak 21 November 2019 13: 06 New
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                haron "Nonikiy not kiev or Uladimir."
                As I understand it, Kuev must write correctly now.)))
          2. Pilat2009 22 November 2019 18: 10 New
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            Quote: haron
            In short, they pulled the cat by the eye

            Perhaps the corny duration was incorrectly led. Still, Old Russian is quite complicated. Yes, and could embellish for the sake of raising morale
      2. ver_ 26 November 2019 15: 50 New
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        ... not a single military commander will storm the city if an epidemic of a terrible disease rages in it ... He will take a siege and not let anyone out of the inhabitants .. He can burn the city together with the inhabitants, but not release this disease ...
    3. Jopp polska 20 November 2019 01: 49 New
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      Chronicle illustrations were not drawn from nature.
      The Mongols did not have their Vereshchagin on the campaign, the Slavs also did not. The chronicler of the 16th century had no idea what the Mongol army of the 13th century looked like, therefore he depicted the warriors understood by him on both sides.
      So Rembrandt, drawing the New Testament, instead of the Roman soldiers depicted the armor of the seventeenth century available to him.
  2. Dalton 19 November 2019 06: 38 New
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    A terrible period in the history of Russia.
    I would especially like to note the actions of one of the first army partisan detachments in Russian history (and possibly the first) - the Evpatiy Kolovrat detachment
    1. Nagaibak 19 November 2019 07: 14 New
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      Dalton "I would especially like to note the actions of one of the first army partisan detachments in Russian history (and possibly the first) - the Evpatiy Kolovrat detachment."
      Now local experts will quickly explain to you that Evpatia did not exist at all. And that he is the fruit of the fiction of the chroniclers.)))) The siege of Kozelsk is no longer there.))) The fruit of the fiction so to speak.)))
      1. Slavutich 19 November 2019 07: 30 New
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        The fruit of fiction, so to speak.

        Interesting, so to speak.
        1. Nagaibak 19 November 2019 09: 08 New
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          Slavutich "Interesting, so to speak."
          Is there something wrong?)))
          1. Slavutich 20 November 2019 06: 21 New
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            On the contrary,
            everything is correct.
    2. illi 19 November 2019 21: 12 New
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      What was there partisan? In those days, it was not particularly partisan. Armies walked heaplessly without rear.
    3. Pilat2009 22 November 2019 18: 13 New
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      Quote: Dalton
      guerrilla units

      But what is a partisan detachment? In my understanding, this is a detachment constantly operating in the rear of the enemy. Did Kolovrat act in the rear of the enemy? Disrupted supply, undermined communications?
  3. Slavutich 19 November 2019 07: 28 New
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    In general, solid questions that are easier to ask than at least try to answer them.

    Many questions. But the author answered many of them
  4. Korsar4 19 November 2019 07: 34 New
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    Thank. There are more questions than answers. Sity, of course, has become shallow. I wonder how wide was at that time.

    As for Kozelsk, chronicles and legends do not appear from scratch.

    But Smolensk could already lack strength. And spring was approaching.
  5. Free wind 19 November 2019 07: 35 New
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    Yeah, bloody age. The Russians had such a head start. after kalki, and the princes are ready to cling to each other's throats, although all brotherly uncles. Ordinary people are sorry, but the princes got their share. the Mongols got confused in their relatives.
    1. andrew42 19 November 2019 18: 29 New
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      So it comes out terribly insulting. If we adhere to the official historical concept of the Tatar-Mongol invasion, this forces us to apply the well-known Zadornovskoye “Well, stupid ...” to our ancestors. But the soul rebels against this, and we, after all, are the descendants of those people of the 13th century, not fools and not panties-skins. Who were the real "Mongols", and what was the main reason - the purpose of the "invasion" - remained a mystery behind 7 seals.
      1. Doliva63 20 November 2019 19: 47 New
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        Quote: andrew42
        So it comes out terribly insulting. If we adhere to the official historical concept of the Tatar-Mongol invasion, this forces us to apply the well-known Zadornovskoye “Well, stupid ...” to our ancestors. But the soul rebels against this, and we, after all, are the descendants of those people of the 13th century, not fools and not panties-skins. Who were the real "Mongols", and what was the main reason - the purpose of the "invasion" - remained a mystery behind 7 seals.

        This is Stalingrad in our history, and they have the infamous Kalka. We were brought up on the victories of the Red Army, and they - on the defeats of princely squads. And then, what's the difference, who should pay tribute to? So not well, stupid, but really pragmatic.
        1. Suhow 24 November 2019 17: 36 New
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          Stalingrad, the Brest Fortress is something to take an example from.
          1. Doliva63 24 November 2019 17: 46 New
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            Quote: Suhow
            Stalingrad, the Brest Fortress is something to take an example from.

            I agree, but we are comparing the 20th century and the 13th, they did not have these examples. And by the way, it could not be. Then, as in 21m, it’s more practical to give up and pay tribute than to stand to death.
  6. Olgovich 19 November 2019 07: 37 New
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    Ryazan fell on the sixth day, Suzdal on the third day, the Mongols approached the capital of North-Eastern Russia Vladimir on February 3 and captured him on February 7. Only Torzhok resisted for 2 weeks. And Kozelsk - as much as 7 weeks! Why? The answers to this question are striking in their naivety and can satisfy only the inexperienced reader.

    There are thousands of examples of the surrender of some fortresses and cities in a couple of days and the siege of others for months and even years: Izmail, Smolensk, Breslau, Koenigsberg, etc.
    1. Edward Vashchenko 19 November 2019 08: 32 New
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      But, Rostov, for example, agreed and his Tatars did not storm.
      1. haron 20 November 2019 08: 58 New
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        Quote: Edward Vashchenko
        But, Rostov, for example, agreed and his Tatars did not storm.

        The most interesting as agreed? Why did some agree and others did not. At the same time, based on the volume and type of tribute in the following years, the Mongols were not greatly affected by compensation money.
        My opinion is that the first and main condition for a bloodless decision was the proud consent to fight with the khan and for the khan. Or the transfer of the prince and the troops of the city into complete submission to the Mongols. Money is secondary — troops are primary.
        But if Suzdalians MAY stand under the growth in the ranks of the Mongols, then they would be stubborn and begin to curl their fingers. That and the conditions of service were an order of the joster than that of his prince.
        I repeat. This first campaign was a type of gathering of volunteers and the drive of troops under oath. The Mongols gathered an army.
        After 20 years, as usual, a certain part of those who crossed over and those who were hiding behind their own, boiled to serve according to the charter. They were led by the brother of Nevsky. His character seems to fit under NOT an amateur to come to a meeting on time and adhere to a clear order in the ranks and plans. It was under his banner that such people gathered. But discipline was imposed.
        1. Edward Vashchenko 21 November 2019 10: 47 New
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          But if Suzdalians MAY stand under the growth in the ranks of the Mongols, then they would be stubborn and begin to curl their fingers.

          100%
  7. Chersky 19 November 2019 08: 36 New
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    All the same, I will never believe in this crap - the invasion of the Tatar-Mongol hordes))) Someone there, a Mongolian Temujin / Genghis Khan, who came to power in his camp at the age of 30, after almost 3 decades has almost stamped Europe, having passed under this is not in the wild, but in a completely populated and strong state. In my opinion, pure water is nonsense. At that level of communication, and indeed civilization in general, this is to be done. It seems to me impossible.
    1. Nagaibak 19 November 2019 09: 01 New
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      Chersky "At that level of communications, and indeed civilization in general, this is to be done. It seems to me impossible."
      Well, let's not languid anymore, tell us about the Tartarians or Targaryen.))))
      1. Alexander Suvorov 19 November 2019 09: 50 New
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        Nagaybak (Andrey)
        Well, let's not languid anymore, tell us about the Tartarians or Targaryen.))))
        In a neighboring story about the Crimean storm, one alternativeist is already playing with his “tartaria” ... lol
      2. Chersky 19 November 2019 09: 50 New
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        Stand in front of the mirror and broadcast yourself any nonsense that you want to hear. Why bother me)))
        I just expressed my opinion.
        1. Alexander Suvorov 19 November 2019 10: 31 New
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          Chersky
          I just expressed my opinion.
          You can have any opinion, the question is what is it based on ?!
          Stand in front of the mirror and broadcast yourself any nonsense that you want to hear.
          Here you are nonsense and broadcast, passing it off as your opinion!
    2. BAI
      BAI 19 November 2019 09: 59 New
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      Campaigns of Alexander the Great do not bother? But there were even earlier, then the word "communications" was not invented.
      1. Alexander Suvorov 19 November 2019 10: 36 New
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        BAI
        Campaigns of Alexander the Great do not bother? But there were even earlier, then the word "communications" was not invented.
        I, too, always ask a question to the "alternative people" about the Roman Empire, the empire of Alexander the Great, the Arab Caliphate, etc., but in response to slurred bleating about some kind of technical backwardness of the Mongols. Talking about technically “advanced” Huns, Sarmatians, Pechenegs and Polovtsians with them is also useless.

        Drinking without a snack, she's so ... Insidious. Not strengthened brain kills with a bang. lol
        1. Suhow 24 November 2019 17: 42 New
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          Not by number, so we will reduce. The result is needed. And he was.
      2. Chersky 19 November 2019 11: 48 New
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        A comparison of the king of the Argead dynasty with the Mongolian shepherd does not bother?)))
        1. Hantengri 19 November 2019 13: 13 New
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          Quote: Chersky

          A comparison of the king of the Argead dynasty with the Mongolian shepherd does not bother?)))

          What's the problem? Does the "shepherd" have an inhuman form of the skull and a non-Aryan eye shape?
    3. Trilobite Master 19 November 2019 12: 25 New
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      Quote: Chersky
      never believe in this crap

      To believe or not to believe is a question from the field of irrational. Here, unfortunately, science cannot help you.
  8. BAI
    BAI 19 November 2019 09: 56 New
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    Ryazan fell on the sixth day, Suzdal on the third day, the Mongols approached the capital of North-Eastern Russia Vladimir on February 3 and captured him on February 7. Only Torzhok resisted for 2 weeks. And Kozelsk - as much as 7 weeks!

    Why is there anything surprising?
    If we look at the history of Western Europe, we will see that some castles held for a long time, and even withstood the siege, when "3 arrowheads and half a bucket of wine" remained in the arsenals. And other castles and entire cities were taken by storm quickly enough.
    But why some hold on, while others do not - this, of course, is the question.
    The Trinity-Sergius Lavra held out for a long time and did not give up, but the sieges were more developed among the Poles than among the Mongols.
    1. igordok 19 November 2019 12: 06 New
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      Many powerful fortresses surrendered to the "golden donkey". The moral level of the defenders was very affected.
  9. haron 19 November 2019 10: 24 New
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    Let me imagine it. Or maybe not. Fortunately, the author tied together many disparate concepts with a completely logical thread, the main thing is consistent.
    I ask you not to throw slippers strongly, but to indicate errors.
    Always and everywhere, some kind of conquest was guided by the “central idea”, a certain philosophy of the supreme ruler, according to whose pattern it is already possible to determine the meaning of all, or most actions.
    The pathetic deep meaning is the eternal confrontation between priests and warriors. Those who conquer others with a sword or a word. (lasts so far)
    Genghis was a 100% warrior, was completely deprived of the influence of religious ideologues. His "tengri" is only a tradition without the dictates of the high priesthood (remember the fate of the last shaman of Genghis).

    The idea of ​​Genghis is to conquer the whole world, from the sea to the sea. His army is a priori the most powerful because he gathered the best warriors from all the conquered lands (almost). His army adopted the best weapons and tactics of these warriors.
    Total: 1. All warriors, nomads and not really, should unite under the rule of the world's strongest warrior (bred by Darwinist selection) and subjugate all non-warriors. Take away their benefits and make them work for themselves. 2. One khan - one law. Peace forever. 3. Booze partying and doing nothing. (Genghis testament)
    The method of the Mongols. 1. To draw all the warriors to their side with these ideas. 2. Do not oblige warriors to supply warriors. 3. Unsuitable for war and supply for laborers. 4. Resist to dust.
    The transition to the service was initially offered to everyone, after resistance only to the best and worthy, and was accompanied by certain rituals (for example, to go through a fire, etc.) but this is not a religion.
    Everything else is derived from the above.
    1. haron 19 November 2019 10: 42 New
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      Quote: haron
      Everything else is derived from the above.

      The selectivity of taking the cities of north-western Russia is determined by the consent to accept or not these conditions.
      In one of the articles, the author indicated that the most devastating campaigns were the later campaigns of the unruly and others. This, the first, had the goal of recruiting warriors and building a common system of relations.
      As always, she began to disagree with someone. And rightly so. The Mongols have a clear pyramid of power, everyone is equal in Russia. So after 20 years, these contradictions resulted in an uprising and a campaign of unbelief.
      Why first to the north and not to the south-western Russia? Subudai and the behavior of the princes under Kalka. But this did not give a reason to deviate from the rules - in Western Europe there were troops of Danila Galitsky, the Kiev governor was offered to switch to service ...
      Orthodoxy saved his secularization by the Byzantine type. The priest in Russia did not claim power, his task is to treat the sick and the wretched, to teach children and give advice if asked.
      Further nuances.
      IMHO.
      PS: Let's think. what professional warrior would not want to work in the strongest army, with a permanent job guaranteed for many years?
    2. Korsar4 19 November 2019 20: 39 New
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      Regarding drunkenness, there were serious restrictions.
      1. haron 20 November 2019 07: 51 New
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        Only until complete victory. Yes, and after that there is a steppe Valhalla. Only instead of a little mare pig. AND! And that's all in real life. By the way, the descendants of Genghis were just weak for a glass.
  10. Operator 19 November 2019 10: 35 New
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    In the photo of Kozedsk reconstructed according to archeldglgvl data, a jail (that is, a fortress, the Kremlin) is clearly visible, and not a city. Vladimir, Ryazan, Kolomna looked similarly before the Mongol invasion of the "city" (an engraving of the city of the 17 century, for some reason given by the author especially delivers), Moscow (the author has to bring a modern map of the city laughing ) etc.

    Naturally, the Kremlin had suburbs that were unprotected and consisted of city estates, artisan workshops and trading posts. But they were practically not protected, since wooden buildings, and so on, once in 25-30 years, burned out or decayed. Losses in people were also minimized - this is the prince's squad, the city militia and the top of the townspeople who took refuge in a small area of ​​the Kremlin.

    Therefore, the dramatic descriptions of Russian chronicles about the numerous losses of Russians relate only to the top of society and its mobilized part. Multiple of the majority of the Russians went into the forests; their benefit was in abundance in the north-east of the country.

    Another situation was in the south of the country in the Principality of Kiev, which was located in the forest-steppe zone and the inhabitants of which were mostly driven to full. Survived by those who migrated to the north-east and west of Russia. Therefore, the annalistic term “depopulated” refers to the border princedoms of Kiev and Ryazan.

    On the whole, the Mongol-Tatar invasion was objectively positive in itself, since it de facto destroyed the feudal fragmentation of Russia into independent specific principalities (in the image and likeness of Europe), about which Russian chroniclers had shed tears for several centuries, urging the princes to unite.

    The new state formation, headed by a single grand duke, made it possible to consolidate the forces of the Russians, turn them into a nation and destroy the parasitic statehood of the Mongols and Tatars on the expanses of Eurasia up to the Pacific Ocean (the Mongolian People's Republic dependent on Russia does not count), thereby eliminating the source of permanent aggression . As a result, at the moment, the number of Great Russians, Little Russians, and Belarusians is two orders of magnitude higher than the number of Turkic-speaking national minorities living in the Russian Federation, Ukraine, and the Republic of Belarus.
    1. Elturisto 19 November 2019 20: 59 New
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      Why are the Mongols full?
      1. Operator 19 November 2019 21: 02 New
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        Slaves can be exchanged (in the Crimea, for example) for money, of course.
    2. Yaik Cossack 20 November 2019 05: 37 New
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      Archaeologically, this point of view is completely refuted. After the Mongol pogrom, many cities did not recover. Others are poorly populated. Even the former capital Kiev is a miserable village of several hundred yards. This means that the population of Posad did not leave, but was exterminated. Many difficult crafts perish.
      The commentator's idea of ​​the ratio of the area of ​​the Detinets (Kremlin) and Posad is also incorrect. You just need to take an archaeological map, for example. Vladimir and see.
  11. Chersky 19 November 2019 11: 54 New
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    Drinking without a snack, she's so ... Insidious. Not strengthened brain kills with a bang. lol

    Judging by the argument, already killed.
  12. svp67 19 November 2019 12: 07 New
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    Since the Mongol military leaders never fought in the forefront, but led the battle, being in the rear, they believe that during the battle the Russian heavy cavalry managed to break through the enemy’s battle formations, but, apparently, was surrounded and destroyed.
    It is possible that the Vladimir detachment hit from the forest, with the goal of either breaking through to the encircled city, or defeating the enemy. And most likely, due to the effect of surprise to them. at first there was success. But here, the question again arises about the number of Russian troops. Judging by the fact that the detachment was equestrian, and even made up a third of the total army, it could not be very large, most likely several hundred people. Which, earlier, in internecine wars, was considered quite sufficient, but not in the case of the battle with the Tatar-Mongol army. Their army was built on a different principle and was much more numerous. As a result, even having success in advance, destroying the command post of one of the Mongol military leaders, and even killing him, the detachment drove itself into the environment of more numerous enemy units. Which, also proved to be more maneuverable and armed with long-range weapons - bows. And then, just a matter of technology. Without entering into direct collisions, the Mongols bombarded the Vladimir detachment with arrows. And if the warrior was not immediately killed, then his horse was taken out, making him horseless, and then the warrior himself was killed.
    Consequently, the Mongols found allies who not only informed them of the gathering place of the Russian squads, but also led them to the camps of the Vladimir prince.
    The battle on the City, as well as the entire invasion of the 1237-38 of the year, raises VERY many questions that have no answers, but only assumptions. So I personally am very surprised at all the course of this battle. The commander of the invasion forces knew exactly where to look for the remaining forces of the Vladimirites. Well, suppose you found out from captured prisoners. The same from them, he could know the approximate number of the Vladimir army. But from where did he get maps of this area, so that he would develop a plan of action so clearly, when and by whom did he manage to collect data on the specific location and number of Russian troops? But he took great risks, dividing his army into several units. But took a chance. Accurately calculated the order of action and movement of their units. And judging by the idea, and most importantly during the battle, the Mongols clearly sought to destroy the Russian troops, rather than squeeze them somewhere else. And how and when did the Mongols manage to develop and retrain their units in battle tactics in the forests? There are a lot of questions.
    Another question: why did the Mongols really need Kozelsk?
    There is a very reasonable version that the Mongols did not so much need the city itself as it was necessary to destroy the prince, he was the last of the princely family that he first met the Mongol on Kalka, and most importantly, whose princes killed the Mongolian ambassadors. The Mongols just took revenge. And the fact that they could not take the city for a long time is worth figuring out where their "engineering units" were at that time. Maybe it’s just the delay in their arrival because of the debauchery that is the answer to this question.
    1. Nagaibak 19 November 2019 13: 16 New
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      svp67 And the fact that they could not take the city for a long time, it is worth figuring out where their "engineering units" were at that time. Maybe it’s just a delay in their arrival because of the mud, there is an answer to this question. "
      This is from the wiki ... "The Arab historian Rashid al-Din, talking about the long siege of Kozelsk, said that the city was taken in three days only when 2 months later the troops of Kadan and Storm arrived. According to the assumption of V.V. Kargalov. "Kozelsk was designated a gathering place for troops, and Storms and Kadan brought siege weapons with them, before that the city had not stormed." Only it seems to me that they could build these tools on the spot. Maybe they were waiting for specialists? And they themselves could not take the town on the fly. It was probably fortified not bad. Chivilikhin suggested that the city could have a large supply of food. That is why the Mongols did not throw a siege. I think this is not a very successful version))) food during the assault could burn out.
      1. svp67 19 November 2019 13: 34 New
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        Quote: Nagaibak
        Chivilikhin suggested that the city could have a large supply of food. That is why the Mongols did not throw a siege. I think this is not a very successful version))) food during the assault could burn out.

        May be. But there is one "but." The chronicles describe that as soon as the city was surrounded, the Mongols DEMANDED them to surrender the city and give the prince. But the Kozelians refused, moreover, they once again swore an oath to their young prince not to surrender the city and not to surrender it. So who thought of them to this, what kind of person stood behind the back of the young Prince Vasilko, who held the city so tightly in his hands? Who so skillfully led the defense? We apparently will not know when
        1. Nagaibak 19 November 2019 14: 20 New
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          svp67 "We will probably not know when."
          We don’t know much. It's true.
  13. Prometey 19 November 2019 13: 13 New
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    It is found in the text that this or that city represented an important point on the way to other lands, for example, Kolomna. I want to object that the value of towns as some important transportation hubs was minimal in those days. It was in the 20th century that the possession of one or another city made it possible to control transport interchanges, primarily railways. In the 13th century - this was not in principle, however, as well as roads, as such. Therefore, they busted what caught my eye.
    1. Operator 19 November 2019 13: 44 New
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      Mostly ruined, because the cities were centers of government, trade and industrial production, and partly because many cities stood at the confluence of rivers and were nodes of water / ice transport.
      1. Prometey 20 November 2019 10: 30 New
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        Quote: Operator
        Mostly ruined, because the cities were centers of government, trade and industrial production, and partly because many cities stood at the confluence of rivers and were nodes of water / ice transport.


        Well, of course, far from it. What are the centers of government in the 13th century? What is the industry in subsistence farming? Go down to the ground.
        1. Operator 20 November 2019 11: 14 New
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          What is the "capital of the specific princedom" do you understand? And what is the "blacksmith and pottery workshops (not to mention leather and jewelry)"?

          Or do you think that the prince's towers and craft workshops in the 13 century were located in forests and fields - as in modern "historical" films? laughing
          1. Prometey 21 November 2019 17: 24 New
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            Quote: Operator
            Or do you think that the prince's towers and craft workshops in the 13 century were located in forests and fields - as in modern "historical" films?

            Do you think that the city of the 13th century is the same as the city, even if it is the 17th century?
      2. Doliva63 20 November 2019 20: 02 New
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        Quote: Operator
        Mostly ruined, because the cities were centers of government, trade and industrial production, and partly because many cities stood at the confluence of rivers and were nodes of water / ice transport.

        I can hardly imagine how the Mongolian cavalry used water transport. And ice - even more so, because in winter there is nothing for horses to eat. More options?
        1. Operator 20 November 2019 20: 16 New
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          You will pay attention to the 1238 season of the year when the Mongols carried out their first raid on Russia and figure out how you can move around in the winter in the territory covered with virgin forest, except on standard winter roads - ice rivers.

          Do not offer clearings laughing
          1. Prometey 21 November 2019 17: 27 New
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            And you explain why after the Mongols right up to the Napoleonic wars in winter there was never any military action - walk along frozen rivers, and destroy enemies.
          2. Charlie 21 November 2019 20: 53 New
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            Duc horses have good cross. In the 42nd Belov’s cavalry corps, it operated for six months in the rear of the Germans, starting with the winter just. Under Vyazma
            1. Doliva63 24 November 2019 20: 06 New
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              Quote: Charlie
              Duc horses have good cross. In the 42nd Belov’s cavalry corps, it operated for six months in the rear of the Germans, starting with the winter just. Under Vyazma


              The Mongolian horse is not at all what Belov had.
        2. Suhow 24 November 2019 18: 02 New
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          As far as I remember at school, the Mongols had stunted shaggy horses, which were unpretentious and that like deers raked snow in search of grass, although I agreed with you there were problems with forage.
    2. svp67 19 November 2019 14: 31 New
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      Quote: Prometey
      I want to object that the value of towns as some important transportation hubs was minimal in those days.

      You are not right. Then there were their own “highways” - waterways along which cities appeared. They carried multiple functions, including tax functions, for passing through a given water artery. Do not want to - forced. Since the city, it is also a military force, in the form of a prince's squad and city guard, that something, something very motivated and well-trained combat detachments. The same Novgorod, Yaroslavl, Kiev are river cities. And they lived off the river. The impoverishment and fall of our cities in front of the Mongols, not to a small extent, came from the fact that our section of the "route from the Varangians to the Greeks" became impoverished. Money became scarce, princes began to fight for their sources, ruining Russia
      1. Prometey 20 November 2019 10: 34 New
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        Quote: svp67
        Then there were their own “highways” - waterways along which cities appeared.

        How did the horde need these waterways? All rivers in European Russia (Old Russian lands) flow from north to south. The Mongols went from east to west. Yes, for some part of the way they walked along the rivers. But the towns were taken to establish control on the ways.
        1. svp67 20 November 2019 10: 47 New
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          Quote: Prometey
          How did the horde need these waterways?

          As "column roads", it was not for nothing that they turned to us in the WINTER
          Quote: Prometey
          All rivers in European Russia (Old Russian lands) flow from north to south.

          This is their BASIC direction, but they are not straight, like arrows, but winding, otherwise, simply the path "From VARYAG to PERSA" could not exist and armed colonization of Siberia by Russians could not occur


  14. Bully 19 November 2019 13: 21 New
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    And on the seventh day, the combatants who remained in Kozelsk broke through to meet their comrades, and with them went to Chernigov

    leaving behind the inevitable death of their relatives and the remaining townspeople? Yes, after such a disgrace, these warriors would spit on the trail all and sundry. It must be understood that such a “rational” move is simply impossible due to the mentality of the Russian people. Here, the version that the squad left the city in the field, accepted the battle and all fell, just does not raise doubts because "the dead do not have shame"
    1. Elturisto 19 November 2019 21: 31 New
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      But why leave the city so that everyone could fly? Is this a game? Or maybe the princes were fools? Most likely they tried to escape from the city and the whole business. This is so usual for princes, and there are examples — Kalka, Shayo, Kresi — why are their common people to spare or protect, well, them ...
      1. Bully 10 December 2019 15: 54 New
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        Oh how! So you, dear, if you were a prince and a retinue, boldly abandoned your wife and children and hit on slippers? I’ll find another one, and I’ll give birth to more children with it fool With such a worldview, of course, one does not understand why the defenders of the Brest Fortress held the defense without a chance to survive.
        1. Elturisto 13 December 2019 12: 30 New
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          You’ve got a little taut with the assimilation of what you’ve read. Have you cited concrete examples! Do you have anything to say about them? And what does the Brest Fortress have to do with it? -Where did the princes hold the defense or did the Soviet wars still?
  15. gorenina91 19 November 2019 13: 52 New
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    -That one is not clear to me ...
    -Everyone who sets forth this “Mongolian topic” and discusses it .. somehow abstracts from such a weighty fact .. as the human factor ...
    -Well, Europeans can fight each other, hate each other as enemies .. but in principle they are the same ... -They have the same clothes; the same food; same appearance; almost the same way of life and almost the same material and spiritual values ​​... -And that modern world has already developed comfort and coziness; built cities, churches; various buildings for his whims and inclinations and developed rules for how to use all this and give yourself pleasure in leisure and holidays; developed traditions ... -It was already a civilized world where people appreciated one thing and disdained others as a rational person., not so much out of a sense of patriotism, but because they are civilized people ...- People already understood, perceived and accepted ethics, aesthetics, beauty of appearance, clothes, manner of behavior ... - standards of appearance have already been developed, paintings have already been painted and statues sculptured. where beauty was sung ... -Yes, it was impossible even, even then to force a European to eat human beings just like that ..., and even just eat raw meat of animals and drink their blood ...
    -And the Mongol invasion ... -If it was at all ...- As many here set forth ...
    -And here is the Mongol warrior himself; on its dwarf horse, in its appearance (mainly a canine-footed and clubfoot, with a flat face); the ragged man in a robe of animal skins, with a disgusting fetid odor (any today's homeless person would "envy") was an absolute freak for a European, inspiring disgust and disgust ...
    -And there was nothing attractive for a European ...- neither food., Nor drink., Nor Mongolian life; that would at least somehow cooperate voluntarily with the Mongols ...
    -There, even fierce fierce enemies will unite; if you want-you don’t want, but you have to ...- before such a plague danger ...
    -Here, personally, I still agree. That the Russian princes, enmity among themselves ...- could hire some scumbag-nomads, standing at the lower stage of development, for their "one-time actions" against each other ... -That is the Russian people and reflected these actions in his epics and legends ...
    -Well, but all this has come to us many times over the revised "edition" ...
    1. Nagaibak 19 November 2019 14: 17 New
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      gorenina91 "represented for the European an absolute freak inspiring disgust and disgust .."
      You would read the notes of foreigners about the Russians of the 15-17th centuries.))) In their view the Russians .... what you wrote about the Mongol warriors)))) .. Yes, and why go far and in the 19th century Europeans are not very good (to put it mildly) spoke about the Russians.)))
      1. Vincent 19 November 2019 15: 19 New
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        Russians in these centuries were more neat than Europeans (washed in a bath), this is a proven historical fact, the opinion of someone’s notes there is “very valuable” for us LOL
        1. Nagaibak 19 November 2019 18: 38 New
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          Vincent "The Russians in these centuries were neater than Europeans (washed in the bathhouse), this is a proven historical fact, the opinion of someone's notes there is" very valuable ""
          And so what?))) Foreigners left their opinion. And still on this they build their attitude towards us. Second question. And what was it that everyone was washing right?))) All the peasants had baths right in those days?))) Our many peasants ran barefoot and in bast shoes until the middle of the 20th century. Before the revolution, there was more than enough unsanitary conditions in the villages. Not everyone had the same level. And then the lady wrote about some kind of superiority over the steppes. Their weapons were at a good level, the organization and state system under Genghis Khan was at a very high level.
        2. Prometey 21 November 2019 17: 33 New
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          Quote: Vincent
          Russians in these centuries were more neat than Europeans (washed in a bath), this is a proven historical fact, the opinion of someone’s notes there is “very valuable”

          How tired of this myth about neat Russians and dirty Europeans. Would you at least read sources, that there were public baths in European cities. And when soap first appeared in Russia, who began to massively use underwear, toothpaste, and feminine hygiene items. Believe me, a lot of facts are not in favor of a "clean" Russia.
          1. RF man 24 November 2019 19: 07 New
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            WHO WAS "tidier" I will not "reason" with anyone, but that THOUGHT in Russia is NOT a myth ..
            MYTH, that almost EVERYONE had a bath. THIS, even in the late Soviet times, was NOT.
            It is described that they were washed in Huts near the stove - on straw. But washed the same-) In the summer of course it was easier.-)
            Surely, as in the "Soviet era", several families bathed in ONE bath - with neighbors and relatives. ...

            And on the bill “when the soap appeared”, other toothpaste - there are “natural” and “folk” remedies.
            I myself found a time when we washed our head with EGGS - NOT because there was NO shampoo, but it was believed that SO "more useful"

            "And so", most likely, by CURRENT standards, EVERYBODY "lured" -)
    2. Same lech 19 November 2019 14: 22 New
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      The main vulnerability in the version of the Tatar-Mongol yoke is the lack of convincing material evidence from the places of key battles at Kalka ... at the City ... at the battle of Evpatiy Kolovrat ... etc.
      historians very convincingly interpret what foreign sources described and here you can paint anything ... put the evidence on the table then and you can say something about the Tatar-Mongol yoke.
      1. Nagaibak 19 November 2019 18: 52 New
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        The same LECHA "The main vulnerability in the version of the Tatar-Mongol yoke is the lack of convincing material evidence from the places of key battles at Kalka ... at City ... at the battle of Evpatiy Kolovrat ... etc."
        The battle on the Kondurch River of Timur and Tokhtamysh, the battle on the Terek is a major battle, which took place on April 15, 1395 between the troops of the emir Timur (Tamerlane) and the Golden Horde army of Khan Tokhtamysh. The battle on the Vorskla River was one of the largest. And convincing material evidence was also not found there. But, this does not mean that there were no battles. In Europe the same situation. After the battle of Poitiers, did you find a lot of material evidence? It seems not so.
      2. RF man 24 November 2019 19: 17 New
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        Well, that’s why "some" even claim that history is NOT a science, since it does NOT use accurate facts, but TERRIBLE "opinions" that cannot be verified / confirmed by "experiments" and other "scientific methods".
        God knows him WHAT "written sources" of the Second World War will be based on historians in 500-1000 .. years. ALREADY "have options"
    3. Trilobite Master 19 November 2019 15: 22 New
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      Quote: gorenina91
      It was already a civilized world

      It seems to me that here you are just making a big mistake. Before the beginning of the Renaissance, with its humanism and other achievements, it was still very far away. The price of human life was determined only by the degree of its usefulness to others, life itself was not worth anything. People are much, an order of magnitude more likely to die from illness, minor injuries, hunger, and more than from the hands of their own kind. The ordinary nomad, in terms of smell and worldview, was not much different from the ordinary peasant and the feelings that they aroused in the privileged class, which were approximately the same in the steppe and in the village. And the personal hostility of the nobles to each other played a much larger role in their worldview than their feelings for the tax-paying population, which, at best, they were not noticed.
      On the eve of the invasion in southern Russia, a feudal war raged for ten years over control of Galich and Kiev between Daniil Romanovich Volynsky (future Galitsky) and Mikhail Vsevolodovich Chernigovsky. In the position of mutual zugzwang, the Daniil party brought the Suzdal Yurievichs to the conflict in the person of Yaroslav Vsevolodovich, who was given the Golden Kiev Table in exchange for support. While Yaroslav was sitting in Kiev, Mikhail was afraid to scramble in the south, but as soon as Yaroslav rushed to help his brother, the first thing he did was capture Kiev, that is, unleash a new round of war, and not prepare to repel the invasion. When later ambassadors from the Mongols came to him in Kiev, he ordered them to be killed, and he himself fled. The first thing his rival Daniel did was - guess? - right, captured Kiev.
      After the Mongols left the steppe in 1238, the first foreign policy action of Yaroslav was the liberation of Smolensk from Lithuania, and the second was the capture of the Mikhail family, which he later exchanged with Daniel for the same Kiev. And then all three, though not together, but in turns, went to Batu’s headquarters to receive labels on their own lands. True, this trip turned out to be the last for Mikhail.
      Quote: gorenina91
      Russian princes, enmity among themselves ...- could hire some scumbags, nomads

      Oh, our sins are grave ... Irina, how can that be?
      Russian princes for one hundred and fifty years of communication by the middle of the XIII century. already half were married to Polovtsian women, were grandchildren and (or) godfathers of Polovtsian khans and their daughters.
      You do not understand how this or that event could have happened simply because you have a very peculiar idea of ​​what kind of world people lived then, what they thought, how they made decisions. For the Russian prince, the Mongol khan, wonderfully looking, speaking incomprehensibly and living differently than himself, was much closer and more understandable than his own Russian peasant, with whom he speaks the same language.
      We began our dialogue with your extrapolations of the 20th century to the 13th century, but you still judge the actions of the ancestors from the point of view of modern man. Not surprisingly, this technique introduces you into cognitive dissonance.
      1. gorenina91 19 November 2019 16: 16 New
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        -Ah, I don’t want to. I’ll start this whole bodyagie again ... -Well, I’ll unsubscribe a little ...

        -Yes, the Polovtsy were fair-haired and blue-eyed and differed from the Mongols ...- as "two big differences" ...
        -I don’t want to draw a parallel ...- but even today, the Tatars (who are supposedly often prophesied to be the ancestors of the Polovtsy) are quite “cool” (to say the least) to the Kazakhs and other Mongoloid peoples of Russia ...
        - Actually, personally, I don’t see any sense in what they often describe as some kind of battle between the Russian princes and Polovets ... What was the point in these battles ???
        - Why was the Polovtsy attacking the Russian principalities and why was the Russian principalities sending punitive expeditions to the steppe in order to strain the Polovtsy there ???
        -Yes, there were constant skirmishes between those and these .. but nothing more ...
        -Golden princely youth also traveled to the steppe and participated in local festivals ("Polovtsian dances"), competitions, feasts ... -Brides brought from there; you yourself write about it ...
        -Likewise, the Polovtsian nobility was visiting Russian towers ... and was called to princely feasts ...
        -Another way ...- how could it happen then that:
        Russian princes for one hundred and fifty years of communication by the middle of the XIII century. already half were married to Polovtsian women, were grandchildren and (or) godfathers of Polovtsian khans and their daughters.

        -You can already see that the adroit and crafty Polovtsy people liked Russian towers more than the steppe life ... -About this, I wrote that even then comfort selectively began to prevail ...- People became civilized ...
        -And here they constantly try to present everything like darkness ...- sheer darkness ...- communication with the Mongols ... it’s not clear from somewhere ..., they even try to impose the worship of Russians before the Mongols ...
        -Yes, even 150 years of communion between Russians and Polovtsy would not allow Russian princes to humiliate themselves (and this is 300 years) in front of the steppe pastoralists, whose few crafts were at an embryonic level; who knew neither hygiene, nor literacy, nor what architecture was; nor urban development, etc. ... -It can only be imagined ...- stench., dirt, a whole bunch of all kinds of diseases and practical development at the "cave level" ...
        -Yes, the Russian princes would have united at once to fight this rabble, and then would have continued their further feuds ...

        -And the Polovtsy subsequently basically just assimilated into the Russians ...
        -Esaul Polovtsev remember ...- from Sholokhov’s “Virgin Soil Upturned” ... -that is a bright example ...- Joke ...
        -And there are some three hundred year old Mongol invasions ...
        1. Trilobite Master 19 November 2019 17: 00 New
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          Quote: gorenina91
          even today the Tatars

          You are all about your ... sad
          Quote: gorenina91
          a whole bunch of all kinds of diseases and practical development at the "cave level"

          Yes, no more diseases they had than ours and than in Europe. The same shamans and herbalists, sorcerers and sorcerers, monks and other brethren are no worse.
          Quote: gorenina91
          Yes, Russian princes would at once unite to fight this rabble

          I specifically painted for you how they "united" on the eve of the invasion, and even along the way. Did you lie? smile
          At first I thought that you didn’t understand something and that something could be explained to you. Now I see that you even read what I wrote strictly diagonally, but that you write, you sincerely believe and your faith does not need any knowledge.
          Everything, I leave you alone. And then colleagues-ill-wishers will now attribute a harassment to me. smile
          1. 3x3zsave 19 November 2019 21: 00 New
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            Moreover - gender chauvinism !!! laughing
        2. Nagaibak 19 November 2019 20: 25 New
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          gorenina91-Yes, the Polovtsy were fair-haired and blue-eyed and differed from the Mongols ...- as "two big differences" ...
          His mother Polovtsy was blue-eyed and fair-haired. Andrey Bogolyubsky.)))
          1. 3x3zsave 19 November 2019 21: 02 New
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            By the way, the author strongly dislikes Gerasimov.
            1. Nagaibak 19 November 2019 21: 49 New
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              3x3zsave "By the way, the author strongly dislikes Gerasimov."
              Each has its own shortcomings.)))
              1. 3x3zsave 19 November 2019 21: 54 New
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                Oh yeah!!! I appreciate your sense of humor! hi
          2. gorenina91 19 November 2019 22: 52 New
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            - To me, is that a treatment ???
            -Yes, would you have at least some portrait ... or a drawing ... as an argument you would have presented ... or something ...- And somehow it even becomes embarrassing for you ...
            -Yes, even here ... -It is quite possible that a man whose bust is represented has blond hair ... has soft wavy blond hair (and not black and stiff like that of the Mongols); and his eyes ... are most likely light ...
            - I’ll tell you the secret of Pecheninel ... - the Polovtsy were nicknamed because they had light yellow hair .., straw color was hair ...- Just like Russian or Russian hair color appeared -Russian .. .
            1. Nagaibak 20 November 2019 07: 33 New
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              gorenina91 "-And somehow it even becomes embarrassing for you ...
              Don’t worry about me. I myself feel shy somehow)))). Genghis Khan was also red-haired with bright eyes. And still there are such instances come across. And so what?)))) Alexander Nevsky’s father is half Ossetian, his mother is Polovtsian. It seems to me he was not an exemplary Aryan. How can this be correlated with what you wrote?))) Maybe the Asian facial features helped him establish contact with the invaders, who knows him?))) And with some people, fraternizing.))) Regarding cleanliness, this is a separate issue.))) )
    4. ver_ 26 November 2019 17: 23 New
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      ... when the Cossacks conquered Siberia - they walked along the rivers .. Grounded horses are much easier to walk along a smooth * road * than gullies, ravines, forests and drag sledges with various utensils - saws, axes, cannons ... Chita was founded by Cossacks Beketov in 1653 ..
  16. Zerofact 19 November 2019 14: 04 New
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    Quote: svp67
    And how and when did the Mongols manage to develop and retrain their units in battle tactics in the forests?

    And what is the tactics of cavalry in the forests?
  17. Trilobite Master 19 November 2019 14: 28 New
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    Valery, thanks for the article. Of course, I again disagree with many things (I see the battle in the City and the siege of Kozelsk somewhat differently), but this is already familiar to me. smile
    I will try to briefly and simplistically express my vision of this company.
    Imagine Batu Khan at the end of autumn 1237
    Given:
    Available forces - seven full-blooded tumens - almost two-thirds of the total empire forces.
    Two not completely conquered areas are Bulgaria in the north and Desht-i-Kipchak in the south. Both rebellion is ripening there and there.
    Ahead to the west - 1000 km of unconquered steppes, in the north-west are Russian principalities, the most powerful of which is Vladimir-Suzdal, which borders directly on its new possessions. Further south, on the border with the steppe, is Kiev, in which the brother of the Vladimir-Suzdal prince sits, followed by several more independent, hostile principalities, each of which is significantly weaker than Vladimir-Suzdal.
    Problem:
    To expand as much as possible their possessions to the west, without losing control of existing lands.
    Decision:
    Concentrate on removing the most dangerous adversary from the fight, and then tackle the rest. To withdraw from the struggle is to destroy the military and undermine the economic potential of the enemy, to disorganize his control. In relation to the situation, this means defeating the enemy’s armed forces in several general battles, destroying, or at least decapitating, the ruling dynasty and causing maximum damage to his economy through mass killings, arson and ruin throughout his territory. All this must be done without withdrawing troops from the controlled territories for a long time and returning to the steppe before the onset of slaughter.
    It was necessary to pass about one and a half thousand kilometers, for everything about all three winter months. By the way, the Mongols easily reached a speed of 500 km per month, for example, in 1240, when they advanced in the south of Russia, that is, such speed was quite achievable in the steppe and forest-steppe, so the calculation was most likely just that.
    They started as soon as the ground froze. After Ryazan they split up - two tumens remained in the steppe to exclude the Kipchak uprising, one returned to Bulgaria for the same purpose.
    The main thing is speed, in order to prevent the opponent from collecting all his strength and hitting him in parts. The general battle near Kolomna was won, followed by Vladimir and Suzdal. And then two problems drew up. The first - Prince Yuri, the supreme ruler, is alive and safe. It must be found and either captured and executed, or simply destroyed in battle. The Mongols have always attached particular importance to this. The second is time. In the forests, even with guides, the speed to which the Mongols were accustomed did not work out. There was also a third - losses, maybe even not so much combat as non-combat. Nevertheless, Batu takes a huge risk and continues the pursuit of Yuri, simultaneously destroying everything that comes in his way. Two weeks of standing near Torzhok at the beginning of March - already the edge - it's time to return and here comes the happy news from Burundai - Yuri is killed. The general signal for withdrawal is through the direct route and light, dropping carts with siege weapons. There was a thaw near Kozelsky - after all, they didn’t have enough time, the rivers swelled up, the villages didn’t have the same reserves that the city didn’t give up voluntarily at the beginning of winter, there wasn’t any forces or equipment to storm, the horses weakened and wounded, the soldiers fought for more than three months energized, too tired. And the defense of Kozelsk was also active - the defenders even allowed themselves a sortie with heavy losses for the besiegers. They sent for help to the steppe, while they waited, they survived as best they could, they probably died of hunger and disease. When the roads dried up, the grass grew, and the rivers returned to the banks, two tumens came from the steppe, they quickly took the city and returned without delay to the steppe.
    In a similar situation in Hungary, the Mongols remained on the Pannonian Plain, where they spent the whole summer and autumn, and were forced to return here.
    By and large, all three tasks of the campaign were completed, the risk of Batu was justified, but everything hung in the balance. If Mikhail Chernigov were more decisive and short-sighted, the invasion near Kozelsky could end. But, knowing the situation in the south of Russia, where, with the departure of Yaroslav Vsevolodovich from Kiev to the north, the feudal war gained a new round, even dreaming of Mikhail’s Kiev-Chernigov squads near Kozelsk would be extremely frivolous.
    As for the City, my opinion is this: the troops stood there for about a month, the discipline went loose, guarding and long-range reconnaissance faded into the background, which the Mongols took advantage of, having our "with their pants down" directly in the camp. The battle, as such, was not, there was a raid, panic and rout. Chronicles, it seems to me, testify precisely to this.
    1. From Siberia we 20 November 2019 17: 36 New
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      Quote: Trilobite Master
      Available forces - seven full-blooded tumens

      Quote: Trilobite Master
      It was necessary to pass about one and a half thousand kilometers, for everything about all three winter months

      I repeat. The allowance rate per soldier of the Russian Federation is 250 grams of meat per day. Suppose the Mongols consumed the same amount. it means 17,5 tons per day. and one and a half thousand tons per transition. to obtain or requisition such an amount is impossible. and this is not counting the fodder for horses, (on average 5 kg of oats and 10 kg of hay per day) horseshoes, and so on. Further, it is necessary to prepare everything. daylight hours are very short. and where and how to water the horses? no roads, no maps. You will not find conductors. The task is simply impossible. In the Second World War, the Germans stopped their offensive in certain areas due to the backlog of rear areas. and requisition was that, and railway and auto transport.
      1. Grandfather Mansour 21 November 2019 20: 00 New
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        From Siberia we, the points:
        "I repeat. The allowance rate for one soldier of the Russian Federation is 250 grams of meat per day. Suppose the Mongols consumed the same amount. That means 17,5 tons per day. And one and a half thousand tons per transition. It is impossible to obtain or requisition this amount."
        Sources of food for the Mongolian army: 1. Stocks in toroki and wagon train; 2. major hunting (unlikely in our case, because the fun is steppe and at leisure) 3. Live cattle that accompanied the army in the herds (it is unlikely, because in winter, it’s more snowy than in the steppe and it’s extremely difficult (or completely impossible)) 4. Looted from local stocks 5. Meat of fallen or forcibly slaughtered horses.
        Whether it is possible or impossible to requisition is an emotional, not an actual assessment. Chernyshevsky has at least a digital figure.
        Again, if the Mongols were 30-40 thousand, then their supply requirements would be less (for example, according to the standards you quoted - 250 g of meat per 40 thousand snouts is already 10 tons. Moreover, IMHO, Chernyshevsky underestimated the number of horses the composition for the Mongolian army is the same of its 110 thousand horse heads - 30-40 thousand troops are a more realistic figure (three horses per warrior - fighting, clockwork, pack).
        horseshoes
        The Mongols did not forge their horses!
        "This must be prepared. The daylight hours are very short."
        Therefore, detachments of foragers had to stand out, who robbed the villages to supply troops. The average speed of the Mongolian troops in this operation (15 km per day) precisely because of this was small.
        and where and how to water the horses?
        An endless winter water source in the form of snow.
        no roads, no maps. You will not find conductors.
        Conductors from languages ​​and other prisoners, for example.
        In the Second World War, the Germans stopped their offensive in certain areas due to the backlog of rear areas. and requisition was that, and railway and auto transport.
        The example is unsuccessful, since the level of needs of modern regular armies is higher by orders of magnitude.
  18. Vincent 19 November 2019 16: 21 New
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    The Mongols of that time were ordinary nomadic people who terrorized those neighbors whom they could reach, these “dashing people” all those around were forced to pay tribute, because if you have neighbors who are dirty aggressive nomadic savages who cannot be given a general battle and / or force peace to pay tribute to them (the nomadic people do not have a city / castle that can be conquered or destroyed), it’s cheaper than rebuilding the destroyed cities and living in anticipation of a constant attack, it is not known where it is from. It is ridiculous and wild to ascribe to the Mongols the creation of a super empire from which there were no physical traces left of the word at all, historians can never take into account the verbiage that was not confirmed. That for which there is no physical evidence does not exist in nature, the rest is a matter of faith.
    1. Karen 19 November 2019 16: 46 New
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      Quote: Vincent
      It is ridiculous and wild to ascribe to the Mongols the creation of a super empire from which there were no physical traces left of the word at all, historians can never take into account the verbiage that was not confirmed.

      Somehow I watched a program about the Mongols ... So there were ancient Chinese folk songs that told how the Chinese were obliged to give their noble young ladies to some Mongolian wild horsemen ...
    2. Trilobite Master 19 November 2019 17: 09 New
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      Quote: Vincent
      an empire from which there were no physical traces

      I recall a children's poem:
      It was a mushroom picker from afar.
      And in the basket — not a fungus!
      Not a single mushroom -
      Only grass and leaves.
      Mushroom mushroom tired
      And sat on a stump:
      - You say, tell me, forest,
      Are you with or without mushrooms?
      Looked at the mushroom picker
      Deep forest down,
      Swayed - creak yes creak! -
      He showed a mushroom under the tree ...
      - I'm with mushrooms, - said the forest, -
      Are you with or without eyes?
    3. Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 November 2019 18: 02 New
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      Quote: Vincent
      The Mongols of that time were ordinary nomadic people who terrorized those neighbors whom they could reach, these “dashing people” all those around were forced to pay tribute, because if you have neighbors who are dirty aggressive nomadic savages who cannot be given a general battle and / or force peace to pay tribute to them (the nomadic people do not have a city / castle that can be conquered or destroyed), it’s cheaper than rebuilding the destroyed cities and living in anticipation of a constant attack, it is not known where it is from. It is ridiculous and wild to ascribe to the Mongols the creation of a super empire from which there were no physical traces left of the word at all, historians can never take into account the verbiage that was not confirmed. That for which there is no physical evidence does not exist in nature, the rest is a matter of faith.

      From this "wretched" people there remained the sickly ruins of Saray at the mouth of the Volga !!! Not very frail .....
      According to eyewitnesses, it took a whole day to go around the barn around on a horse.
  19. Grandfather Mansour 19 November 2019 16: 50 New
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    Quote: Vincent
    The Mongols of that time were ordinary nomadic people who terrorized those neighbors whom they could reach, these "dashing people" all those around were forced to pay tribute, because if you have neighbors who are dirty aggressive nomadic savages who cannot be given a general battle and / or force peace, you will forced to pay tribute to them on a regular basis, it’s easier than expecting a constant attack. It is ridiculous and wild to ascribe to the Mongols the creation of a super empire from which there were no physical traces left of the word at all, historians can never take into account the verbiage that was not confirmed. That for which there is no physical evidence does not exist in nature, the rest is a matter of faith.

    Well, this is a very common point of view: to consider what we cannot understand as stupid.
    1. Vincent 19 November 2019 17: 08 New
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      Historians must confirm their conclusions with evidence based on material resources, do not offer songs of Chinese peasants and drawings of German scientists.
      1. Hantengri 19 November 2019 19: 55 New
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        Quote: Vincent
        Historians must confirm their conclusions with evidence based on material resources, do not offer songs of Chinese peasants and drawings of German scientists.

        What ruins Saray ruins do not suit you?

        This is Sarah Burke. And there is also Sarai Batu ... look and find out.
        1. 3x3zsave 19 November 2019 20: 35 New
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          But how many dances with tambourines around Arkaim! laughing
          1. Korsar4 19 November 2019 20: 43 New
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            And around, let’s say it’s interesting to arrange dances. Yes, and get there.
            1. 3x3zsave 19 November 2019 20: 50 New
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              "They don’t shoot series about them,
              They’re not in the channel format,
              And the Internet doesn’t write about them,
              They do not seem to exist at all. "(C)
              1. Korsar4 19 November 2019 21: 10 New
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                "Well, then, everyone has chosen faith and life,
                Fifty games in death by winning in a row.
                And only the major of the landing troops N. N. Zyatiev
                Lies shot under the city of Herat '(s).
                1. 3x3zsave 19 November 2019 21: 19 New
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                  "And the difference is lost at the battlefield,
                  And in the field of the universe there is no more pain,
                  Out of place something was remembered, "the clock froze",
                  Get up, soldier, it's over, you were killed. "(C)
                  1. Korsar4 19 November 2019 21: 23 New
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                    0
                    "The wind rises, the star fades. Caesar sleeps and groans in a dream.
                    Tomorrow it will be clear who will overthrow whom, and they will kill me in the war ... "(c).
                    1. 3x3zsave 19 November 2019 21: 31 New
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                      0
                      "Like there in Libya, my Postum, or where there,
                      Are we still fighting? "(C)
                      1. Korsar4 19 November 2019 21: 53 New
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                        "One evening, patricians
                        Gathered at the Capitol "(c).
                      2. 3x3zsave 19 November 2019 21: 59 New
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                        • 3
                        0
                        "It was evening,
                        There was nothing to do "(c)
                      3. Korsar4 19 November 2019 22: 06 New
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                        0
                        "Evening jingle, evening jingle,
                        So many thoughts
                        He brings "(c).
                      4. 3x3zsave 19 November 2019 22: 21 New
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                        +1
                        "I'm afraid I'm fed up with" old Russian longing. "(C)
                    2. Hantengri 19 November 2019 22: 26 New
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                      "But at the hour when midnight will turn off the colors
                      Former Pierrot will change the mask
                      The new one who laughed at him
                      Will turn into pus "(c)
                    3. 3x3zsave 19 November 2019 22: 40 New
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                      "I'm not a butcher or a shredder for carcasses,
                      And hell I'm not a representative
                      But a loving and faithful husband
                      Sincerely yours, Jack the Ripper. "(C)
                    4. Hantengri 19 November 2019 22: 44 New
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                      "I didn't follow her,
                      That is my fault!
                      But tell me
                      Is it really tasty? "(C)
                    5. 3x3zsave 19 November 2019 23: 00 New
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                      "You are not a swindler; you killed a man." (with)
                    6. Hantengri 19 November 2019 23: 33 New
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                      "I buried it under an alder,
                      Light from lightning streamed down his mustache, "(c)
                    7. 3x3zsave 19 November 2019 23: 40 New
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                      "The trouble with the boots, from the spring something completely worn out,
                      They would have punished themselves, so I would not have killed them in vain "(C)
              2. Korsar4 19 November 2019 22: 48 New
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                "Cavalier de Grieux! - In vain
                You dream of beauty
                Autocratic - not imperious in itself -
                Voluptuous of his Manon "(c).
              3. 3x3zsave 19 November 2019 22: 54 New
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                "Uh-gay, trawl-wali,
                If the red girl lived, but in the basement,
                I'd squat down then
                Squat at the window
                We would coo until the morning ... "(c)
              4. Korsar4 19 November 2019 23: 03 New
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                "Hide a girl behind a high fence,
                I’ll steal along with the fence "(c).
              5. 3x3zsave 19 November 2019 23: 15 New
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                "Do not be afraid, Masha! It's me, Dubrovsky!" (WITH)
              6. Korsar4 19 November 2019 23: 31 New
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                "Ah, they have already answered ...
                Well hello - it's me "(c).
              7. 3x3zsave 19 November 2019 23: 47 New
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                0
                "" I "- are different" (c)
          2. Hantengri 19 November 2019 23: 37 New
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            "Children," flowers of life, "thieves, damn it, growing! Hide a little ring with chains under your underpants, steal it with your underpants!" (C)
          3. 3x3zsave 19 November 2019 23: 56 New
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            "And Herzen forever, then lousy caught, then stibrit something" (C)
      2. Hantengri 19 November 2019 23: 34 New
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        "And now, and now hid with ... and
        In the windows of individual apartments "(c)
      3. Korsar4 19 November 2019 23: 44 New
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        "Nothing, I will create comfort for them!
        He will swiftly exchange the apartment.
        They have money - chickens do not peck.
        And we don’t have enough vodka "(c).
      4. Hantengri 20 November 2019 00: 06 New
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        "There, neighbors have meat in cabbage soup -
        The whole village is crunching in cartilage,
        And the daughter - the bride, all in acne -
        Ripened, then. "(C)
    2. 3x3zsave 19 November 2019 23: 45 New
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      "Oh come out, get out, get out, Agrafena!
      Listen to the serenade of love! "(WITH)
    3. Korsar4 19 November 2019 23: 53 New
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      "And she went to him
      Like to prison "(c).
    4. 3x3zsave 20 November 2019 00: 07 New
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      • 3
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      "Cry Yaroslavna poor,
      I cried more than once
      Prince Igor with the Pechenegs,
      Playing preference
      Sold to the cross,
      Will come: "I'm sorry, baby!",
      You will regret infuriates
      Hug and ... forgive! "(C)
    5. Hantengri 20 November 2019 00: 11 New
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      "Taganka, all nights full of fire,
      Taganka, why did you ruin me? "(C)
    6. 3x3zsave 20 November 2019 00: 30 New
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      "Worms, bubi, blame,
      And for me - Crosses! "(C)
  20. Hantengri 20 November 2019 00: 08 New
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    "- From women around the head,
    Fall in love - you won’t get into trouble "(c)
  21. 3x3zsave 20 November 2019 00: 13 New
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    "Oh, you vile people, calculating women,
    Your number is a legion, and your name is self-interest! "(C)
  22. Korsar4 20 November 2019 00: 19 New
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    "Well, she needs rings as a present,
    Cognac, first-hand perfume "(c).
  23. 3x3zsave 20 November 2019 00: 24 New
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    "I spread her bread rolls,
    Money just flowed like a river
    Well, I ordered such songs to her,
    And then he ordered the "Cranes" "(c)
  24. Korsar4 20 November 2019 00: 36 New
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    "The captain sits alone at the table.
    “- Allow me?” I asked.
    "-Sit down" (c).
  25. 3x3zsave 20 November 2019 00: 41 New
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    "Our border guards, with our captain,
    And on the other side - theirs posts.
    On the neutral strip of flowers,
    Extraordinary beauty! " (WITH)
  • Nagaibak 20 November 2019 10: 06 New
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    3x3zsave "But how many dances with tambourines around Arkaim."
    I visited there.))) They say there is some kind of utter power.))) I looked at the steppe, cow cakes ... there’s no more horseradish there.))) And the museum is not bad there. Directly in the middle of the steppe, the museum building is solid.
    1. Nagaibak 20 November 2019 10: 14 New
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      In addition to this museum there is a mill, some huts. In general, a tourist complex. People go for "power", enlighten for one. For the museum is a plus, development is ongoing.)))
  • Grandfather Mansour 19 November 2019 17: 18 New
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    Many thanks to the author for the article!
    Dear Trilobite Master (Michael), your version is quite believable.
    There is a rather curious, albeit old article: Chernyshevsky D.V. "Come on innumerable, like a fork" // Questions of History, 1989, No. 2, - p. 127 - 132. (alas, there are no scans, but I don’t think how to attach it in Word format, tell me how?).
    The author estimates the number of Mongolian troops at the time of the invasion at about 55-65 thousand sabers with a horse force of about 110 thousand heads. Calculations are based on an assessment of the feed base of Northeast Russia at that time and the speed of movement of the Mongols in this campaign. The military potential of the Vladimir-Suzdal principality is estimated at 20-25 thousand people without the ability to concentrate them at once. Under Kolomna, the number of Russian rats was estimated by Chernyshevsky at 10-15 thousand people.
    Even if we assume that some part (up to a third) of the Mongolian army at that time acted against the Polovtsy in the steppe, then 40-45 thousand people (which is close to Veselovsky’s estimate, if this is not my sclerosis) against such a number of Russian troops, and even acting separately - for the eyes. Plus, as already mentioned here, part of the Russian troops could generally avoid participating in the fight against the Mongols). Ftnal was pretty predictable.
    1. From Siberia we 20 November 2019 17: 24 New
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      Quote: Grandfather Mansour
      The author estimates the number of Mongolian troops at the time of the invasion at about 55-65 thousand sabers

      With modern standards of allowance of 250 grams of meat per day, it is 15 tons daily. I'm afraid the Mongol warriors would have scored such a soldering. And all this still needs to be prepared. Or are the Mongols vegetarians?
  • Grandfather Mansour 19 November 2019 17: 23 New
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    Quote: Vincent
    It is ridiculous and wild to ascribe to the Mongols the creation of a super empire from which there were no physical traces left of the word at all, historians can never take into account the verbiage that was not confirmed. That for which there is no physical evidence does not exist in nature, the rest is a matter of faith.

    Let me ask, what physical traces do you want to see?
    And in order to evaluate the evidence, you must be in the subject line and have some kind of “mind bunnies”. A common fun among the profane is to consider something incomprehensible to them personally as something stupid. Stupid.
    1. voyaka uh 19 November 2019 23: 43 New
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      The main physical footprint is the Great Silk Road. He passed
      through the entire Genghis Empire, from China to Western Europe.
      And without this empire would have been impossible. Because merchant caravans
      These thousands of kilometers passed without armed guard and without interference.
      It was necessary to pay tax on goods, get a special label on payment
      and follow him unhindered throughout Asia.
      The merchants were all literate and kept travel diaries. And the Mongol cities, khans,
      , weapons, military stations described in detail. In Arabic, Latin, Spanish.
      Their records can be compared - they generally coincide.
  • andrew42 19 November 2019 18: 22 New
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    That is not too lazy, carefully read all 3 articles. I see a statement of long-known events, in a long-known sequence. I see the enumeration of numerous “oddities” from 1223 to 1238. I see vague assumptions designed to explain these “oddities”, in essence, to talk in the style of REN-TV, but in reality God forbid to reconsider the historical concept of “invasion”. However, thanks to the author for the fact that countless hordes will no longer ride through the snowy Russian forests. And that is bread.
  • bandabas 19 November 2019 19: 07 New
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    20 kilometers. Author. I can not say anything. You probably need to start learning with the ABC Book. I’m not even talking about the rest.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 November 2019 20: 21 New
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      Quote: bandabas
      20 kilometers. Author. I can not say anything. You probably need to start learning with the ABC Book. I’m not even talking about the rest.

      Dear, explain to the wretched man what is the problem?
      Regards, Kote!
  • colotun 19 November 2019 23: 35 New
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    The fourth century AD - Attila conquers Western Europe. Atilla's banners depict an equilateral cross and a golden double-headed eagle.
    The twelfth century AD - Genghis Khan and Batu conquer Western Europe.
    The historical emblem of the Golden Horde is a golden double-headed eagle (only without three crowns). Also, the golden double-headed eagle is the family coat of arms of Genghis Khan.
    The Russian Empire was created from the East, and not from the West.
    What did the specific Russian princes do during the period of feudal fragmentation in Russia (11-12 centuries)?
    They slaughtered each other in the struggle for power, ruthlessly ruining the neighboring lands and Russian cities.
    When the Mongol-Tatars united them, they forbade them to fight with each other, told them: - "You are now one country, one people." And after several generations, Russian people in Central Russia ceased to regard their neighbors as enemies.
    In Ivan the Terrible, the blood of the Rurikovich and the khans of the Golden Horde (through his mother, Elena Glinskaya) was combined, and this explosive incendiary mixture splashed out in the form of a passionary union of the three pillars of Russian statehood - the union of Slavs, Turks and Finno-Ugrians = the Moscow, Vladimir, Suzdal principalities were united , Novgorod and the Golden Horde = Great Empire revived in a new guise again.
    Orthodox prayer ends with the word AMEN, Catholic prayer ends with the word OMEN, Muslim prayer ends with the word EMEN. Also known is the Indian Buddhist mantra OM-MAN.
    And there is the Turkic word AMAN = have mercy and mercy. And these are not the only traces of the Turkic origin of the Christian faith (reference to Academician Oparin).
    And there was also a great medieval empire that conquered including China (QIN dynasty = Golden Dynasty) and India (Great Mughals).
    It is interesting that on the territory of our country of Russia, approximately within the borders of the former Soviet Union, there were five empires: - the first empire was at Attila (4-5 century AD), the second empire was at Genghis Khan (11-12 century AD) , the third empire is the Romanovs, the fourth empire is the Soviet Union and the fifth empire is the Russian Federation now.
    The Russian nation came from the merger of three different nations - Slavs, Turks (including Tatars) and Finno-Ugrians.
    And for one and a half thousand years on the territory of our great united country people of different nationalities live, as one people.
    "Having seized the Russian lands, the Mongols shared their determination with the steppe wolves with the Russians, gave masculinity, a desire for expansion and suppression."
    (A quote from an article by a Chinese author in the Chinese newspaper Sohu dated May 2019)
  • Yaik Cossack 20 November 2019 05: 44 New
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    I would like to ask a question to the author V.A. Ryzhov - what written "Bulgarian" sources does he hint at? Not Jagafar Tarihi? So this is a long-exposed modern fake!
    1. Slavutich 20 November 2019 06: 25 New
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      Jagafar Tarih

      Can you give more details?
      Thank you
      1. Bar2 20 November 2019 08: 41 New
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        Quote: Slavutich
        Can you give more details?

        https://topwar.ru/164296-imperija-chingishana-i-horezm-poslednij-geroj.html#comment-id-9823640
        1. Slavutich 21 November 2019 09: 04 New
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          Thanks for the link
      2. Yaik Cossack 20 November 2019 20: 49 New
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        Jagfar Tarih - these are allegedly ancient Bulgarian annals falsified by Nurutdinov. Since their author was illiterate, he left the evidence in place and got caught. But for some of the Tatar nationalists and stubborn lovers, they are their favorite "source". There, about the Bulgars, and about the Slavs with the Mongols. Read, laugh, eat online. Many of Nurutdinov’s passages are delusional to the highest degree of idiocy))))
        In fact, the ancient Bulgarian annals are not known to science, and it is not a fact that they were generally kept.
  • Operator 20 November 2019 11: 22 New
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    Quote: Yaitsky Cossack
    the population of the settlements did not leave, but was exterminated. Many difficult crafts perish.

    Not a fact - artisans could spread out over smaller settlements, as well as migrate from border princedoms to internal ones.

    The long non-population of the devastated Kiev and Ryazan is related to their border position - fools are dumb to live in the city without protective structures, and they can only be built with the help of outside labor from other places of the specific principality. Due to large losses among the ruling elite, such actions were temporarily complicated.

    On the other hand, small cities in a forest zone such as Moscow quickly rebuilt. In the conditions of continuity of power, which took refuge in the forests of the population, preserved earthworks (ramparts and embankments) and an excess of timber, rebuilding the Kremlin and, especially, planting sites is garbage.
    1. From Siberia we 20 November 2019 17: 18 New
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      have you tried to build it yourself? Take away all the mechanization, and do not forget to plow the plow yet
    2. Yaik Cossack 20 November 2019 20: 59 New
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      Could. Sometimes it was.
      But there are statistics of archaeological sites. And it indicates a significant decline in cities everywhere (except Novgorod, Pskov and part of the Western Russian principalities). Look at the Archeology of the USSR, the corresponding volume.

      As for the "garbage question" - that's not garbage at all. The urban population was then a minority, but its economic and cultural significance significantly exceeded the share in the population. Here, let’s say, two-thirds of the population of capital Vladimir died. Instead of artisans, merchants, competent and economically active citizens, you can settle illiterate peasants there, but they cannot become a full-fledged replacement for the dead social groups.
      The pogrom of the cities of Russia is one of the reasons for the decline of urban self-government and economic stagnation.
      1. Operator 20 November 2019 22: 22 New
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        9 / 10 of the population of the cities, including artisans, lived in the suburbs and, as the Mongols approached, went into the forests, and therefore physically survived and spread out over small settlements.

        Another thing is that after the destruction of the elite of society, the solvent demand for craft products disappeared and this same economic stagnation arose.
        1. Yaik Cossack 20 November 2019 22: 57 New
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          Where did you get the calculations? Why 9 / 10, not 11 / 26?
          1. Operator 20 November 2019 23: 25 New
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            The layout of the cities of the 13 century: 1 / 10 squares - the Kremlin, 9 / 10 - Posad.
            1. Yaik Cossack 21 November 2019 00: 52 New
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              Ahhh, well, they would immediately say that your knowledge of archeology and the life of ancient Russian cities is almost zero. I would not mind you.
              Is that what you measured - 1 and 10? Did you make a discovery? But in Vladimir, how about%? Which fortified parts of the city do you attribute to the Kremlin, and which are fortified parts of the city? Indeed, by the nature of the settlement between them there is not much difference.
              And further. So, according to your opinion, 90% from the Posad - they ran away, and those who were in detinets (10%) remained? You have proven this pattern, yes? )))))
              As I understand it, you except the words Kremlin and Posad know nothing about the city. What did they have a more complex structure, that at first poorly fortified villages over time surrounded by new lines of walls and turned into full-fledged urban areas?
              Have you ever seen a map of Vladimir either?

              As a rule, not only residents of cities (fortified parts and suburbs), but even suburban territories, sought to take refuge in cities, since they knew that usually nomads (Polovtsy for example) avoided decisive assaults for lack of siege equipment.
              I have no more questions, sorry for my time spent.
              1. Operator 21 November 2019 01: 05 New
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                Excuse me, older than you, for your time, but actually you need to warn in advance that you are a witness Jehovah's Batuhana laughing
                1. Yaik Cossack 21 November 2019 01: 11 New
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                  But rude, young man, do not. First read at least the annals, then serious literature, try to understand them, and only then, perhaps, you will understand the ridiculousness of your inventions and “calculations”.
                  1. Yaik Cossack 21 November 2019 01: 16 New
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                    You did not read either Tikhomirov, nor Ioannina, nor Kirpichnikov, nor the magnificent combined work Ancient Russia. Town. Lock. Village ”, no other major work. So your aplomb is completely groundless. Learning is light.
      2. andrew42 26 November 2019 14: 03 New
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        As for the "illiterate peasants" vs "qualified townspeople" is that you got excited. Firstly, in those days, with those technologies, village peasants were jack of all trades. The tradition of setting up new forges and walking carpentry in the district remained until the beginning of the 20th century. This is a way, you won’t drink it. Secondly, the permanent population of the then “cities” was 30 percent — these were boyars with courtyards (not counting boyar estates in villages), merchants' courtyards, courtyards of urban servants, and artisans, of course, too, but it seems to me that most of these Masters were citizens in 1-2 generations. And the "illiteracy" of the peasants is a big question - we will never know for sure. But if the housewives used to sign pots there from more ancient times, then arguing that ALL peasants did not know the Initials, is unfounded.
  • alexei.guliver 20 November 2019 16: 37 New
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    The Zolotarev battle is a battle of the 30th century that occurred XNUMX km south-east of modern Penza between the defenders of the Zolotarevsky fortification, one of the important fortresses of the Volga Bulgaria on the way to Kiev, and the invading Mongol-Tatars of Batu (according to another version, the detachments of Dzhebe and Subedei https: //ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zolotarevskoe_ battle "The Golden Arrow of Batu. Kudiyarov ravine in the Penza region - a dangerous and perilous place. Eight hundred years ago there was a fortress, there was a rich settlement. According to scientists, they were destroyed by the horde of Batu Khan .. . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg uXvr-bURc
    1. depressant 20 November 2019 16: 51 New
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      By the way, according to the writer Dmitry Sillov, Kozelsk fell as a result of betrayal, which he told about in the novel "Evil City"))
  • From Siberia we 20 November 2019 17: 16 New
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    As already got the topic of the Tatar-Mongols. Take historians, put them on horses and make them drive without maps, and roads from Mongolia to Moscow. Well, or take a piece of paper, a calculator, allowance rates and calculate the amount of NECESSARY provisions, equipment, etc. measure the distance and the daily passage of the cavalry. Igo is possible only in the brains of a cabinet scientist who only saw a horse in the picture. Plus the rear. Or do not need horseshoe horses? For thought, read the pace of the construction of the Trans-Siberian Railway. calculator and google to help. And yes, do not forget about the war.
    1. Yaik Cossack 20 November 2019 21: 04 New
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      What kind of Siberia? There is no your Siberia, there is Tartaria .... here they are, Scaligerian agents.
      And Napoleon, too, was not, and Stephen Batory, and the campaigns of the Ottomans, and Alexander of Macedon, and Babur, and Tamerlane. Take a calculator and count Google))))
      1. The comment was deleted.
    2. andrew42 26 November 2019 14: 14 New
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      Yes, historians in the winter forest and on horses - it was nice to drive. There, the "Dyatlov Pass" will seem like a fairy tale. Moving a small “Horde” in winter conditions is impossible at a distance of more than 30-50 versts from a full-fledged, well-rich, permanent (!) “Operational base” designed to provide several thousand soldiers. Otherwise, it will be a one-time and long-term walk in 2 directions. Once a year. A classic of the genre is the confrontation between Vseslav Polotsky and Yaroslavich in the 11th century, which ended with NOTHING. But if the "Mongols" had hosted in busy cities, preparing for the next transition, then yes. But they burned them! busted! all were killed! (as in Ryazan / Suzdal / Kozelsk). and then apparently the 10000th Tumen fed from 50-100 yards ravaged by the mansions. No, without dumplings it just could not have done! Sources, I give the idea, "Dumplings came up with the Tatar-Mongols" to fight in the winter on the East European Plain. Go ahead for the dissertation!
  • Ekpin Tөlentaev 20 November 2019 23: 28 New
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    It was not the Mongols who conquered Russia, but the Turkic tribes. The Mongols of the 12th-13th centuries were Türks. The common name of these Turkic tribes is the Kipchaks, who united 92 tribes. The Mongols did not have khans, like Oirats they were led by the huntaiji, and the khan was purely Turkic a word from the Turkic Khaganates, Today's Mongols, the people of the hulk are not the heirs of Genghis Khan. These are late people, formed by mixing the eastern tribes with the Manchurians. 15-16 centuries
    1. Yaik Cossack 21 November 2019 01: 01 New
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      Oh, Turkic chauvinists pulled themselves up. Their fix idea is to try to appropriate Mongolian history. There are plenty of such crazy people in modern Kazakhstan, the chauvinistic waste of uneducated masses is bearing fruit. Now they will begin - “Genghis Khan is a Kazakh or a Kyrgyz”))))
    2. Operator 21 November 2019 01: 48 New
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      Quote: Ekpin Tөlentaev
      Not the Mongols conquered Russia, but the Turkic tribes

      Technically, you are right - the vast majority of the conquerors were Tatars (so until the 20 century the Russians called all the Turkic-speaking peoples).

      But the Mongols, whose mother tongue is part of the Tungus-Manchu language family, along with the Tungus and Manchu languages, were the state-forming core of the 13th-14th centuries empire. All Turkic languages ​​are nothing more than derivatives of these three.

      Tatars / Turks are originally residents of Central Asia and South Siberia, in contrast to the Mongols, Tungus and Manchurians - originally residents of the Far East. Far Easterners in the first millennium AD they conquered and assimilated the Central Asians, after which the latter became Tatars / Turks. Then the Tatars / Türks, led by the Khazar Huns, conquered the Volga region and assimilated the local Ugro-Finns, after which they also became Tatars / Türks.

      The Mongols came from the Far East in the second wave and forced the newly formed Tatars / Turks into their empire, after which they were used as cannon fodder in the attack on Russia.

      In any case, mono-ethnic Mongols (on 90% carriers of the haplogroup С2) are genetically sharply different from Tatars / Turks, who are almost all mestizos without any dominant haplogroup.

      For example, among Kazakhs, the carriers of the Mongolian С2 are only 1 / 3 of the population (the rest are carriers of the Pamir G, North Semitic J2, etc.). Uzbeks are sharply different from the Kazakhs - with 1 / 4 carriers of C2, the rest of them are carriers of the North Semitic J2 and Aryan R1a. Among the Volga Tatars, 40% are carriers of the Ugro-Finnish N1c1, the rest are carriers X2 and R1a. Kyrgyz people have 55% of R1a carriers, the rest are C2 carriers, etc.
  • Operator 21 November 2019 02: 10 New
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    Vladimir’s plan with the Kremlin and the gardens before the Mongol invasion, the length of the perimeter 5600 meters - more than Kiev (4600 meters), and less than Novgorod (6100 meters)


    According to witnesses of Batukhan, the entire population of Vladimir could be accommodated in the local Kremlin laughing
    1. Yaik Cossack 21 November 2019 21: 28 New
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      Well, they themselves began to see the absurdity of your assessments, looking at the plan of Vladimir.
      It was you, not me, who claimed that in the cities only the Kremlin population had to defend themselves, and all the rest - scattered from the cities through the forests.
      On the above plan, the Kremlin (Roman numeral IV) is very small.

      That is, if you take your imagination for the truth, then the inhabitants of the City of Monomakh, the New City and the Ham Town (which are not the Kremlin, I remind you not to try to distort) should have abandoned to defend the walls, the Golden and Irininy gates and .... run away.
      These same areas were the main trade and craft territories (which you inaccurately call “Posad”).
      And unfortified landings? But Vladimir almost didn’t have them.

      You see how the plan immediately showed the absurdity of your idea about the unkilled inhabitants of Posad and about 9 / 10.
      Residents of Vladimir Posad and constituted the vast majority of defenders of the city. But the inhabitants of the Kremlin of Vladimir were hardly so crowded to occupy the entire perimeter of the walls. And he was busy and stubbornly defending himself.
      1. RF man 24 November 2019 20: 31 New
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        Has anyone made estimates of the total losses of the parties when taking cities?