Project of the Soviet Empire: Buran

On November 15 on November 1988, the first and last launch of the Soviet Buran orbital spacecraft took place, which could open a new page in the Russian stories space exploration.

The flight of the Soviet Buran lasted about 205 minutes - after its launch into low Earth orbit with the help of the Energia launch vehicle. Having made a couple of turns around the Earth in automatic mode, the spacecraft safely returned to the Yubileiny airfield.

A film was released on the Kalashnikov channel, which is dedicated to Buran and its first and last space flight. In the film, the spaceship is called the project of the empire. And these are by no means empty words. Take at least the number of jobs that served the creation of this machine. According to some estimates, the total number of such jobs reached 2,5 million: from metallurgists to design engineers, from welders to specialists of the Mission Control Center.

The video presents statements about the Buran program of Vladimir Skorodelov, deputy chief designer of the Molniya NGO. In particular, he talks about the problems that arose during the implementation of an ambitious project.

Vladimir Skorodelov:

Our aviation worked up to the speeds of Mah-tri (Mach). And the flight speed of the ship "Buran" was estimated at 28 Maham. This was a huge unexplored area of ​​hypersonic aerodynamics.

Roller:

Comments

[GKS 2111]

the spaceship is called the design of the empire. And these are by no means empty words. Take at least the number of jobs that served the creation of this machine. According to some estimates, the total number of such jobs reached 2,5 million: from metallurgists to design engineers, from welders to specialists of the Mission Control Center.
This has already been said.Breakthroughpokherennym. To my deepest regret ..
So far, the Buran was to be launched into space by no one surpassing the power of the Energia launch vehicle in power. Especially for Energia, Energomash Design Bureau, led by Valentin Glushko, designed the RD-170 oxygen-kerosene engine, the most powerful liquid-propellant jet engine in the world with a thrust of 7257 kN near the Earth. For comparison: the F1 engine of the American lunar Saturn-V rocket had a near-earth thrust of 6869 kN.

[Svarog]

Quote: GKS 2111

That’s already said it all. A breakthrough, poher.

Little by little, the entire legacy of the USSR will be stolen .. and "breakthroughs" we have only with Solovyov and Kiselev .. yes in the reports of various ministries. For that time, it really was a breakthrough .. but in the USSR, a breakthrough was a fairly common thing. Every year the USSR showed the world new achievements in science .. The USSR was equal, feared, admired and respected .. and most importantly people were proud that they live in the USSR .. The first and advanced empire in many high-tech areas ..

[GKS 2111]

I am still proud that I lived in the USSR. I am proud of the children I raised, proud of the rewards of the country, proud of the apartment that the country gave me. I was ready to die for that country. There will never be such a sense of pride and confidence in tomorrow. ..

[Svarog]

Quote: GKS 2111

I am still proud that I lived in the USSR. Such a sense of pride and confidence in the future will never be ...

I'm proud too! But I’m an optimist and I hope that we will return to socialism and imperial ambitions .. Russia must be an empire, it has always been it, only the last 30 years we have been hanging around like a product processed into an ice hole ..

[knn54]

Guys. I’m still proud of the fact that I took part in the development. Let and a small piece. Not one enterprise can be suitable for their CHILDREN. True, because of the transition to another division, "flew" in 1988 with a commemorative medal, but this is a trifle.
Regarding Dora Govizna, there were no fiber optic cables, there were no microprocessors and LSIs (for example, information converters into Manchester-2 code) authorized by the military. Yes, and the process went on for more than 20 years ..
But then there was already M.S. Gorbachev and Co.
It remains only to remember and hope

[Svarog]

Quote: knn54

Guys. I'm still proud of. And the fact that I took part in the development. Let even a small piece.

In this case, we are proud of you and those citizens whose mind and honor made the Great USSR ..

[Barmaleyka]

Quote: Svarog

But I am an optimist and expect that we will return to socialism and imperial ambitions ..

and I am unfortunately a realist and if this happens it is only through a lot of blood, and the safety margin we have with Gulkin’s nose

[Svarog]

Quote: Barmaleyka

and I am unfortunately a realist and if this happens it is only through a lot of blood, and the safety margin we have with Gulkin’s nose

A realist is good, but why unfortunately?
Here with a lot of blood, I do not agree. Not that time, not that power, not that elite, so that the people would stand up for defense. If you want to compare with the revolution of 1917, then the people will not fight for the "Tsar" now .. And then, there is no need to arrange revolutions, it is enough that 70% of the people want to see socialism in the Russian state. And gradually everything will start to change without revolutions .. This is already happening .. You can see from the last elections, where Edro flies with a whistle, and without an admin resource, in general, they would fly everywhere ..

[Barmaleyka]

Quote: Svarog

Not that time, not that power, not that elite that the people would defend themselves.

and what does the elite and the people have to do with it, what you are talking about will require a redistribution of property and a change of system, and this will lead to great blood

Quote: Svarog

enough for 70% of the people to want to see socialism in the Russian state.

Do not specify what percentage belongs to the MOST industrial and other property of the country? !!
do you think they will voluntarily refuse it? !!!

Quote: Svarog

This is already happening .. You can see in the last election, where Edro flies with a whistle, and without an admin resource, they would fly everywhere ..

instead of edra, bulk sternin or other talkers will come, the same eggs only in profile, so that SOMETHING COORDINALLY changes, you need to change "girls", not "sofas"

[Astronaut]

instead of edr, sternum bulk or other talkers will come the same eggs only in profile

do not confuse God's gift with fried eggs. If you don’t own a topic, then it’s better to chew than write!

[Barmaleyka]

Quote: Astronaut

it’s better to chew than write!

in the intervals between chewing, justify YOUR "thought"

[sniperino]

Quote: Svarog

I don’t agree with a lot of blood. Wrong time

In the sense? Shoot a little National Guard and the rest scatter? I would close those planning bloodshed for prophylaxis.

[sniperino]

Quote: Barmaleyka

if this happens then only through a lot of blood, and the safety margin we have with Gulkin’s nose

Do you regret that there is not enough margin of safety for shedding great blood?

[Barmaleyka]

try to comprehend what you read

[sniperino]

Quote: Barmaleyka

try to comprehend what you read

And you try to think when you write. Not immediately, but it will turn out, I believe in you and will help. And then two members are discussing the volume of blood that needs to be shed for an armed coup ...

[Barmaleyka]

Quote: sniperino

then two members are discussing the volume of blood that needs to be shed for an armed coup ...

the thinker stopped working ?!
and where did I call for an armed coup? !!!!!

[sniperino]

Quote: Barmaleyka

and where did I call for an armed coup? !!!!!

Do not panic ahead of time. I have not claimed this anywhere. You want to say that it was a question of shedding blood with hemorrhoids?

[sniperino]

Quote: sniperino

was it about shedding blood with hemorrhoids?

No, I get it. You want to say that this is Vladimir, a member of the community, at the nickname of Svrog, you were inclined to this, but you objected, they say, there will be a lot of bloodsucking. It was?

[Ingenegr]

In fact, the death of the USSR took place on 19-22.08.1991. Something I didn’t see then people who were ready to die for the USSR. The gravediggers at the "white house" were full. Ready even to die, but "against the USSR." And without any pride.

[Barmaleyka]

Quote: Ingenegr

In fact, the death of the USSR took place on August 19-22.08.1991, XNUMX.

no, it happened February 25, 1956

[Ingenegr]

On February 25.02.1956, 1986, in fact, Khrushchev laid the foundation for the events of 1991-XNUMX with his report. To say "thank you" to him for this or to anathematize him?

[Barmaleyka]

Quote: Ingenegr

To say "thank you" to him for this or to anathematize him?

and you ask the residents of Donbass, those who were driven out of the houses with shouts by the invaders, those who hanged themselves not having found the strength to look into the eyes of their children once again coming home without a salary

[Barmaleyka]

Quote: Ingenegr

Something I did not see then people ready for the USSR to die

Let's be honest, NONE of the ordinary people understood what happened then, we were all picturesquely hung noodles about the fact that nothing had changed except for the name, and later it was too late to "drink Borzhom"

[Mestny]

So they hang you now - about crooks and thieves and about the restoration of the USSR.
Only you do not understand.

[New Year day]

Quote: Svarog

and only Solovyov and Kiselev have breakthroughs.

Yes, not a breakthrough in them, but a break. Stop believing them

,
here is the "First" almost bankrupt

[sniperino]

Quote: Silvestr

Stop believing them

They were mostly never believed: neither RBC, where this propaganda was from, nor the brainchild of A. Kudrin, who was conducting the "research" - the Committee for Civil Initiatives (KIG). Except for you, perhaps. With the first statement ("I am used to believe that ...), if the survey were conducted in reality, the statistical error of the respondents would hardly agree, with the second more, but not 50%. They are formulated incorrectly: which media - the fact that I Do I regularly watch, read, or generally everything that I see? These are questions for people who are insensitive to contradictions (schizos, oligophrenics, etc.), because the media is full of contradictions, what to believe? Etc.

[Gardamir]

"breakthroughs"

probably more correct will be holes ..

[tolancop]

Breakthroughs in Soviet times were not unique. There were real achievements. And I am proud that I was born and raised in the USSR. And I read about Buran with delight: what unique technologies have been developed and applied for it. But still there was a worm of doubts: you read about the unique glue that was used to attach the heat-shielding ceramics and pride in the Soviet chemical industry arises ... But why the hell with such adhesives does my boots fall off ?! That is why a lot of money was invested in development, an excellent result was obtained, and the achievements were used extremely poorly. IMHO, one of the sides of mismanagement.

[elfik]

Quote: GKS 2111

the spaceship is called the design of the empire. And these are by no means empty words. Take at least the number of jobs that served the creation of this machine. According to some estimates, the total number of such jobs reached 2,5 million: from metallurgists to design engineers, from welders to specialists of the Mission Control Center.
This has already been said.Breakthroughpokherennym. To my deepest regret ..
So far, the Buran was to be launched into space by no one surpassing the power of the Energia launch vehicle in power. Especially for Energia, Energomash Design Bureau, led by Valentin Glushko, designed the RD-170 oxygen-kerosene engine, the most powerful liquid-propellant jet engine in the world with a thrust of 7257 kN near the Earth. For comparison: the F1 engine of the American lunar Saturn-V rocket had a near-earth thrust of 6869 kN.

And now they cannot make a heavy impact drone, they have been doing it for 10 years and are still not mass-produced.

[Barmaleyka]

Quote: elfik

And now they cannot make a heavy impact drone, they have been doing it for 10 years and are still not mass-produced.

Dneproges built in 2 years, in 54 surveys were conducted on Baikonur, and in 57 the first rocket flew
sometimes it seems to me that it is economically more profitable for a country to maintain Africa, Latin America and Southeast Asia than an army of Chubais-Ragozin-Gref-Millers

[Mityay65]

Quote: GKS 2111

According to some estimates, the total number of such jobs reached 2,5 million: from metallurgists to design engineers, from welders to specialists of the Mission Control Center.

What a wild game! So also by the principle of three handshakes it is possible to count - then just do the gender of the Earth’s population will be involved. No need to drive any scales, dear , will be simpler.
Energy Buran is TWO PROJECTS, by the way. There is Buran, and there is Energy.
Buran, if not demanded by the Moscow Region, the customer, and morally obsolete sunk into oblivion forever ...
But with Energy, I would not rush to write it off. Energy is not out of date at all. Moreover, judging by what is being discussed in the world, technical solutions may well provide Energy, in the event of its reincarnation at a new stage, leadership in the perfection of the design among superheavy spacecraft. Of course, something will have to be updated, such as instrumentation, brains and electrics. It will be much cheaper than building a new superheavy. Let's speculate what is needed for this and what is in the way.
The design documentation is all preserved and calmly lies in the archive, both in paper and in digital form. Moreover, most developers and designers are alive and well. There are no problems.
The rigging of the launch vehicle is all preserved at both Progress and Energy. And engines and in general all these 30 years were produced. Something of course will have to be restored from scratch, such as pyro-pushers, etc., but it’s the little things.
What are the difficulties? What do critics of this idea say?
There are no side blocks of the first stage, they were made on Yuzhmash, this is essentially the first stage of the Zenith LV. It is quite possible to replace the newly developed Soyuz-5 launch vehicle, it is almost an analogue of the Zenith, with the same dvigunami. This is no longer a problem.
The central unit, the second stage, hydrogen-oxygen, there may be difficulties with a large volume of liquid hydrogen. At least they were in the late 80s, the installation for the production and liquefaction of hydrogen cost some completely crazy money, somewhere around $ 1,2 billion. And then this installation just rusted and was handed over for scrap. But now new technologies for producing hydrogen from natural gas are much cheaper, and this will reduce the cost of all ventures. It's not a problem.
Marazovost. Yes, repeating the old Energy in a one-time form is stupid. It is necessary to immediately and consistently resolve the issue with reusable use of the first and second stkpeni. Nowadays, as the sect of St. Ilon teaches us, it’s not a problem to remember by night, it’s not a problem. I agree that this issue can be resolved on the launch vehicle of the second stage. I do not see any problems.
And we will have a new reusable Energy -II, 140 tons in low orbit, and cheaply, because 90% of the work done 35 years ago. And quite quickly - I think if you get down to business as it should, then in 2 years everything can be done.
I repeat once again that the USSR was not spending those resources. The USSR was a country that solved many issues with costly methods, because the cost of social programs immediately went into the cost of any undertakings. To switch to the release of a new truck, it was necessary to solve the problem of building a new neighborhood to attract a slave. strength. Now everything is wrong.
Everything could be done quite a budget.

[Barmaleyka]

Quote: Mityai65

What a wild game! So also by the principle of three handshakes it is possible to count - then just do the gender of the Earth’s population will be involved.

it’s not a game, but the reality of large-scale production, light industry enterprises took part in space programs, it seems as if they had nothing to do with it

[Barmaleyka]

Quote: Mityai65

Buran, if not demanded by the Moscow Region, the customer, and morally obsolete sunk into oblivion forever ...

for one single reason

Do not specify the date of the last shuttle launch ?!

Quote: Mityai65

The USSR was a country that resolved many issues with costly methods.

Are you seriously?!!!!
Do you know the curiosity about the development of mattresses pens that writes in zero gravity and how it was decided in the USSR?

[Alien From]

Barmaleyka, more accurately with photos tagged. this erysipelas asks for a brick, for all his vile deeds !!!!!

[Barmaleyka]

afraid for your monitor?

[Alien From]

Exactly so, I was already crumpled by such a photo of this creature !!!!

[Astronaut]

Everything could be done quite a budget

It would be possible if there were not Rogozins in Roscosmos, but Chelomei, or Yangel, or Lozino-Lozinsky, or other people like them ..

[atalef]

Quote: Astronaut

It would be possible if there were not Rogozins in Roscosmos, but Chelomei, or Yangel, or Lozino-Lozinsky, or other people like them ..

and what was then cheap?
Is the cost of the whole project voiced at all? How much did the country cost Energy - Buran?
so that would compare how much dough just took and poheril.

[Barmaleyka]

Quote: Astronaut

not Rogozins, but Chelomei, or Yangel, or Lozino-Lozinsky

so now we don’t need Creators, we need consumers

[atalef]

Quote: Mityai65

And we will have a new reusable Energy -II, on 140 tons in low orbit, and cheaply, because 90% of the work done 35 years ago

to restore the 35 technologies - those years ago, porters, chains - is not realistic.
Cheaper to create a new one.

Quote: Mityai65

And pretty quickly - I think if you get down to business as it should, then for 2 of the year everything can be done.

joker, you are my friend. joker

Quote: Mityai65

Everything could be done quite a budget.

quick and budget.
What country do you live in ???

[Mityay65]

Quote: atalef

to restore the 35 technologies - those years ago, porters, chains - is not realistic.
Cheaper to create a new one.

I understand the issues I'm writing about. Create New:
a) more expensive;
b) longer;
c) There is no point.
About this was my post above.

Quote: atalef

joker, you are my friend. joker

I participated in the Energy-Buran program, and had the opportunity to observe how this program was implemented under the USSR. Then it seemed to me that everything that was happening before my eyes was normal and it should be so. I was young and inexperienced. Later, I was able to get acquainted with modern Western project management methods, in particular with lean production, kanban, 5S and others.
Now it seems to me that what the USSR did under the Energy-Buran program is an example of mismanagement, sloppiness and a waste of resources. An insane solution to howls through the anus has been made. Just totally stupid wasting resources! About 5 military builders erected only one start on Baikonur, and for some reason 000 were built at once. It looked something like the construction of the pyramids in ancient Egypt
It doesn’t work: our mess was just biblical ...
Therefore, I believe that everything can be repeated with the necessary improvements without problems and with tremendous resource savings, unless, of course, it is not a Soviet approach to the matter
And do it fast enough.
The Yankees cannot repeat Saturn-5, they cannot even reproduce the rocket engine, the rigging and equipment are lost, the specialists died. Our situation is different, everything is preserved.

Quote: atalef

quick and budget.
What country do you live in ???

I live in normal.
And what are you in?

[atalef]

Quote: Mityai65

I understand the issues I'm writing about. Create New:
a) more expensive;
b) longer;
c) There is no point.

Well, please revive, well, let's say the tube horizon, with a black-and-white screen.
How much will this device cost?

Quote: Mityai65

participated in the Energy-Buran program

not you alone

Quote: Mityai65

Only one start on Baikonur erected about 5 000 military builders, and for some reason, 2 built starts for some reason.

and runways - 3.

Quote: Mityai65

Therefore, I believe that everything can be repeated with the necessary improvements without problems and with tremendous resource savings, unless, of course, it is not a Soviet approach to the matter

not Soviet - this is to the Mask.
And in Soviet times - whatever you try to release - the tank will be the same all the way out.

Quote: Mityai65

Yankees can't repeat Saturn-5

Of course they can, but why?
They know how to count money.

Quote: Mityai65

Our situation is different, everything is preserved

what is preserved?
What reality are you in?

Quote: Mityai65

I live in normal.
And what are you in?

Well, about normality - everything is relative.

[The Siberian barber]

All that you wrote is the words of a person who cares.
Try to ask yourself the question: "Do they need it ??"

[militarist63]

And the rubber product No. 2 - M. Gorbachev, who buried the project, will never die!

[Lexus]

Project of the Soviet Empire: Buran

Done and dumped by the organizers of the collapse of the Great Soviet Union.

[Golovan Jack]

Quote: lexus

Project of the Soviet Empire: Buran

Done and dumped by the organizers of the collapse of the Great Soviet Union.

Lehus, what do you know about Buran?

Buran was a purely military project, and very very expensive ... buddy, I got (to the edge) to take part in this, ahem, disgrace ...

Even for the Union, it was prohibitively expensive. That's why they turned. Something like this

[Svarog]

Quote: Golovan Jack

Even for the Union, it was prohibitively expensive. That's why they turned. Something like this

Science in general is not a cheap thing .. but do you suggest what money to spend on? On yachts? Golovan, how narrowly do you think .. but there is so much pathos ..

[carstorm 11]

17 yards of American money was worth an average. and not current. then this amount was even worse. here everyone laughs that they broke a lot of money into a penguin or zumwalt. and what do you think is called? at the current rate this is taking into account the inflation of the buck almost 37 yards Karl !.

[depressant]

Golovan Jack, whatever you say, the project was amazing, the impression was stunning. If you really took part in this project "at least", you should talk about it with undisguised pride, and not sketch here about the high cost. Further improvement reduces the cost of such projects. For example, it hurts me to talk about "Buran", as about a miracle that flashed and disappeared. How so?

[carstorm 11]

so it disappeared because nobody needed it. it was under the Moscow Defense Ministry and it was immediately thrown off to the Academy of Sciences. no one hid that this answer to the Americans. maybe he was wonderful, but because of him they closed the Spiral. many people think that it was much more promising.

[atalef]

Quote: depressant

If you really took part in this project "at least", you should talk about it with undisguised pride, and not sketch here about the high cost

I attended the shift on duty at the start of Buran.
Already then there was talk among the officers about the simply unbearable cost of the project.
all the more, no reusability was envisaged (for energy) there was talk, but no more

[ccsr]

Quote: atalef

Already then there was talk among the officers about the simply unbearable cost of the project.

It’s not even a matter of inappropriateness, but the fact that the GOU understood that this system would not give us any advantages in a nuclear war with the United States, but the costs would be so much that my mother did not grieve. But the main drawback is the very short time spent in orbit and the frequency of being over enemy territory, reaching a gap of up to 2 hours. Yes, during this period the war could already end, so that the system from a military point of view is absolutely useless - and this was understood by all competent officers who had an idea of ​​our capabilities of those years.

Quote: atalef

all the more, no reusability was envisaged (for energy) there was talk, but no more

Especially when you consider that you’ll have to land with nuclear weapons on board, and not the fact that everything will go well. Here you involuntarily think - what for goat button accordion ...

[AU Ivanov.]

The Americans abandoned the shuttles. Expensive. Well, someone who, and mattresses know how to count money.

[nikvic46]

Andrei: After the Americans abandoned the shuttles, they recovered for a long time.

[Gardamir]

On yachts?

550 million Dilbar yacht was built in 2016, then it seems to the people that they announced ssanctions

[Svarog]

Quote: Gardamir

Dilbar yacht 550 million built in 2016, it seems to the people announced ssancations

Previously, people were offered to be proud of Buran .. and now they are oligarch yachts .. they are trying to pass off the absurdity as achievements .. the saddest thing is that many still believe ..

[Mestny]

Now no one offers anything. Everyone decides what to do.
You can, for example, write posts in the Internet industry by filling the keyboard with saliva or other liquid in the ecstasy of memories about the USSR invented.
And no one will say anything. Punitive psychiatry is known to have been canceled.
But in the real USSR, on the contrary, try to doubt the correctness of the party line.

[Astronaut]

try to doubt the correctness of the party line.

You want to say what's different now?

[atalef]

Quote: Svarog

They used to offer people to be proud of Buran .. and now they are oligarch yachts.

and that someone offers to be proud of the yachts of the oligarchs?

[mvg]

// science is not cheap //
Where did you find science here? Useless project. Answer to the Space Shuttle. Without the ability to return at least part of the money. You can laugh a lot over the DDG-1000, but for such projects themselves, at least eat some booty.
PS: Science, it’s like the Chinese, whole scientific towns from people of all nationalities, and not the swelling of degng in SOI and Buran-Energia.

[Svarog]

Quote: mvg

Where did you find science here? Useless project.

Take a closer look at this "useless project" more than 4 know-how has been implemented .. And all innovations and discoveries are science.

[mvg]

I watched a movie and read a lot as the USSR overstrained this project. Most of the know-how remains in the form of pieces of paper. The maximum team will be given a bonus. And most of the how it happens. For the award. You are an adult.
PS: This is a hundred times worse than the Angara.

[Astronaut]

I watched a movie and read a lot,

"Read less newspapers before dinner" (c)

[atalef]

Quote: Svarog

Take a closer look at this "useless project" over 4 know-how has been implemented.

Well, as I understand it, you will give an example without difficulty, well, at least heels and, say, economic effect.

[Lexus]

Kat, are you sure you crawled under that account? Not beguiled? After all, Smirnov will someday get tired of your multi-station. And it will send you back to the "fragrant world" you are used to. Yes, and you bored me with your tongue-tied tongue. Well, if you turn to the interlocutor without misrepresenting your nickname and name, you can't do it, don't count on the fact that someone will communicate with you. Switch over and write praises to yourself and put plus signs.

[Lexus]

Until the whole "cat-shed" was closed

[Greg Miller]

When Buran was created, our Great and Huge country was ruled by those who were in the trenches of the Great Patriotic War, who retreated to Moscow and Stalingrad, and then took Berlin ... They well understood the cost of defeat in the war and did everything to prevent this war from repeating ... These are the current pygmies ruling Russia, who grew up on speculation and farts, believe that there are only partners around, that you can agree with everyone and do not want to believe that they are still talking to them only because Russia has not yet lost those nuclear teeth that we were inserted by the same ones who gave the command to create "Buran" ...

[Karen]

Beautifully written. +

[carstorm 11]

the Central Committee gave the command to create Buran. for the reason to prove to the states that we can too. while closing really serious projects. your words are quite understandable, only you wishful thinking.

[Svarog]

Quote: Greg Miller

then the current pygmies ruling Russia, who grew up on speculation and farts, believe that there are only partners around, that one can agree with everyone and do not want to believe that they are still talking to them only because Russia has not yet lost those nuclear teeth that we were inserted by the same ones who gave the command to create "Buran" ...

It would be possible to put 1000 +, I would put it .. you can’t say more precisely!

[demo]

It is not sad, but I agree with you.
If the Soviet Union and our foreign adversaries had not collapsed, then we would have already raised the dust of Martian roads.
And it does not matter in what "pretty penny" it would result in us.
Here "THIS" (excluding costs) is one of the cornerstones of the country's collapse.
We always proved something to someone.
But this was not necessary.

But we could not prove to ourselves that since we lived is the best that can be.
For 92 year, we did not go to the barricades of the system and the power to defend.
And they sat quietly and quietly. Watched TV.

About "Buran".
The cost of the project is estimated at the same amount as the cost of building the Baikal-Amur Railway.
Cool.

[AU Ivanov.]

We entertained our own FAQ at the price of a superhighway.

[ccsr]

Quote: Golovan Jack

Buran was a purely military project, and very very expensive ... buddy, I got (to the edge) to take part in this, ahem, disgrace ...

If we talk about disgrace, then it was imposed on the military, because Buran, in terms of operational and technical characteristics, did not correspond to the realities of a nuclear war. How this all happened is well understood from this text:

"Reusable space systems had both strong supporters and authoritative opponents in the USSR. Wishing to finally decide on the ISS, GUKOS decided to choose an authoritative arbiter in the dispute between the military and industry, instructing the head institute of the Ministry of Defense for military space (TsNII 50) to carry out research work ( R&D) to substantiate the need for the ISS to solve the tasks of the country's defense capability, but this did not clarify either, since General Melnikov, who headed this institute, deciding to play it safe, issued two "reports": one in favor of creating the ISS, the other against. in the end, both of these reports, overgrown with numerous authoritative "Agreed" and "Approved", met in the most inappropriate place - on the desk of DF Ustinov. Annoyed by the results of the "arbitration", Ustinov called Glushko and asked to bring him up to date, introducing detailed information on the ISS options, but Glushko unexpectedly sent him to a meeting with the secretary of the CPSU Central Committee, a candidate member of the Politbue ro, instead of himself as the General Designer - his employee, and. about. Head of Department 162 Valery Burdakov.
Arriving at Ustinov's office on the old square, Burdakov began to answer questions from the Secretary of the Central Committee. Ustinov was interested in all the details: why do we need the ISS, what it might be, what we need for this, why the United States is creating its own shuttle, how it threatens us. As Valery Pavlovich later recalled, Ustinov was primarily interested in the military capabilities of the ISS and he presented to D.F.Ustinov his vision of using orbital shuttles as possible carriers of thermonuclear weapons, which could be based on permanent military orbital stations in immediate readiness to deliver a crushing blow to anywhere in the world [5]. The perspectives of the ISS, presented by Burdakov, so deeply excited and interested DF Ustinov that he prepared a decision in the shortest possible time, which was discussed in the Politburo, approved and signed by Leonid Brezhnev [6] [7], and the topic of reusable space system received the highest priority among all space programs in the party-state leadership and the military-industrial complex. "

So because of the incompetence of Ustinov, who did not regret taking into account the opinions of the military, we got a system that the Defense Ministry did not need.
By the way, this is what this program cost us:
Total costs as of January 1, 1991: R&D - 12,3 billion rubles; cap. construction - 4,1 billion rubles.
The cost of building the BAM in 1991 prices amounted to 17,7 billion rubles.

[Karen]

Quote: ccsr

By the way, this is what this program cost us:
Total costs as of January 1, 1991: R&D - 12,3 billion rubles; cap. construction - 4,1 billion rubles.
The cost of building the BAM in 1991 prices amounted to 17,7 billion rubles.

As the American most effective military-industrial complex manager George W. Bush (not to be confused with you know with whom) said: "Give money to an engineer, and he will bring something new." (+/-)
This is the George W. Bush whom the Americans pushed away after the victory in WWII ... They remembered him after 12 years ... As you probably already know by the date - because of our space launch of the satellite ...
And now let’s think together: what kind of return could the Soviet people get with such numbers of funding for science / engineers, which was the Buran project? Following Bush’s thoughts, it’s almost immeasurable ...

[Amateur]

Total costs as of January 1, 1991: R&D - 12,3 billion rubles; cap. construction - 4,1 billion rubles.
The cost of building the BAM in 1991 prices amounted to 17,7 billion rubles.

And where did these costs go? For yachts, real estate in France or Chelsea football club?
This money went to the salaries of Soviet scientists, engineers and workers. This money went to housing, hospitals and kindergartens in science cities. This money went to the development of the latest technologies, materials and devices, which, unfortunately, from the "big mind" were classified and were not used in civilian industries.
Worldwide, the military-industrial complex brings profit to its owners, and only in the USSR in the 90s. all sorts of guides and chubais defense industry was declared ruinous.
Buying weapons or components for its production abroad is really ruinous.
An example is the Russian military aircraft industry - profitable, and the civilian one, based on the import of engines, avionics, etc. - unprofitable.

[ccsr]

Quote: Amateur

And where did these costs go? For yachts, real estate in France or Chelsea football club?
This money went to the salary of Soviet scientists, engineers and workers.

I did not aim to criticize the Soviet Union, but rather try to explain why the collapse of the country occurred, and what role military orders played in this. You didn’t get the idea that having a full-fledged and powerful Strategic Missile Forces, to draw GUKOS to nuclear weapons combat systems is utter nonsense, which even in terms of managing space weapons are already huge problems.
Maybe it would be better to use these funds to improve non-military products - people would live easier, and engineering thought would not be affected.

Quote: Amateur

An example is the Russian military aircraft industry - profitable, and the civilian one, based on the import of engines, avionics, etc. - unprofitable.

I will not discuss the current situation in aircraft construction, because it is a consequence of the collapse of the country, in which unnecessary and costly Soviet projects, including the Buran, played an important role.

[Amateur]

N.P.Shmelev (Academician of the Russian Academy of Sciences) in one of his articles of 90 years argued that the main reason for the collapse of the USSR economy was the planning by the State Planning Committee of the same rate of annual growth in output for all industries. Those. if the production of plastics is growing, then the production of non-ferrous metals, etc. should decrease accordingly. As a result, a huge amount of useless products was produced, lying in warehouses. We all well remember the endless fields near which dispossessed tractors and other agricultural machinery were lying. At the same time, a lot of what was needed was missing.
The importance and necessity of the military-industrial complex is just from Shmelev.
Well, about planning styles of lingerie for the five-year period ahead there were more jokes than lingerie itself.

[ccsr]

Quote: Amateur

N.P.Shmelev (academician of the Russian Academy of Sciences) in one of his articles of 90 years argued that the main reason for the collapse of the USSR economy was planning by the State Planning Commission

And no less famous economist with a worldwide reputation Leontiev on the contrary believed that the Gosplan was a unique achievement of the Soviet system, and even then he understood all the advantages of the capitalist and socialist system.

Quote: Amateur

Well, about planning styles of lingerie for the five-year period ahead there were more jokes than lingerie itself.

You didn’t live in the fifties and sixties, and you didn’t see what ruins were in the post-war cities, what was the lack of even ordinary goods, and I remember it very well, as well as how hard it was for the five-day period and how people were happy about it. So it’s easier to expose the socialist system — we therefore lived poorly because we did not spare money on the military-industrial complex, condemning the people to long-term restrictions. But now it’s easy to use those achievements to blame those who sought them.
I read Shmeleva - it was a fashionable opus, although competent professionals immediately drew attention to the superficial analysis of the author. We had such theorists, such as Aganbegyan, there was dofig, but no one can understand what they have created for the country so far. Here is such a homespun truth ...

[Amateur]

You didn’t live in the fifties and sixties, and you didn’t see what ruins are in the post-war cities, what was the lack of even ordinary goods,

I was born in 1951 Two VO- communications engineer (full-time), engineer-economist (in absentia). So I’ve seen something and I know something.

[ccsr]

Quote: Amateur

I was born in 1951 Two VO- communications engineer (full-time), engineer-economist (in absentia). So I’ve seen something and I know something.

Then it’s strange that you don’t remember how we lived then. They should at least understand why, in the fifties, a technological breakthrough in the nuclear and missile industries was made.

[Amateur]

Then it’s strange that you don’t remember how we lived then.

I remember very well. With the idiot Khrushchev, there were interruptions in bread. And then they lived quite normally. All were shod, clothed and fed. Not croissants and not in the Prado. We didn't go to Turkey. But our family (father is a locksmith, mother is a teacher) every year went somewhere on vacation. When on a tour, when - "savages". Were in the Crimea and the Caucasus. And most importantly, everyone was confident in the future.

[Barmaleyka]

Quote: Golovan Jack

That's why they turned

Well, that's not why

Quote: Golovan Jack

Buran was a purely military project

so Gagarin’s flight PURE MILITARY PROJECT

[onix757]

The organizers of course did their dirty deed, but Tushinsky machine-building was ruined in the 2000s

[Lexus]

I absolutely agree with you. Many, many enterprises in one way or another survived and were barbarously destroyed by the "St. Petersburg" companies.

[svp67]

The peak of the rise of the USSR, after which the "fall" began, and mostly due to the direct betrayal of the political leadership.

[Corn]

The peak of the rise of the USSR was in 1922, when the tsarist legacy was still eaten, after which a continuous fall and universal shame began, which stopped only in 1991.
The fight against the obviously criminal leadership of degenerative party mediocrity is a noble work in its essence, which cannot be called “betrayal”.

[Good_Anonymous]

Quote: Corn

The peak of the rise of the USSR was in 1922

Yeah, January 1

[Corn]

Almost December 30th

[Good_Anonymous]

Right? And not December 23? Well, so that the very next day.

[Barmaleyka]

Do not specify the date of the first space flight?

[Barmaleyka]

Quote: Corn

The peak of the rise of the USSR was in 1922, when the royal heritage was still eaten

victim of the exam?
or can you voice this "legacy" in numbers, by the way, and not the tsarist but the liberal-democratic more like by October 17 the king did not smell

[Barmaleyka]

it is clear, as always, only a loud crunch of bread, stat data is not in honor

[Xnumx vis]

Quote: svp67

The betrayal of political leadership.

CPSU Central Committee!

[New Year day]

Quote: 30 vis

CPSU Central Committee!

then it is worth adding "... and the union republics"

[svp67]

Quote: Silvestr

then it is worth adding "... and the union republics"

But now it’s not clear. The first Secretaries of the Union republics were part of the Central Committee of the CPSU, and the rest, which were members of some other parties, and not the CPSU?

[svp67]

Quote: 30 vis

CPSU Central Committee!

Did you know anything else at that time?

[sabotage]

Expensive and not necessary. Either it was necessary to finish H1 in the year 74, or it was necessary to think in advance about the further program for using this complex. Cosmonauts at the WORLD were cheaper to carry the Union. Loads - by protons. And this rocket, except for giant satellites, which were not or for lunar missions is not needed. Therefore, she went to the scrap. Sorry for the money and time spent.

[onix757]

In the case of the preservation of the Union, the second generation of Buran would have changed in one form or another, and is expensive only for those who justify their failure.

[Corn]

In fact, Buran is simply the perfect symbol of the USSR.
He was obviously a useless and super-expensive wunderwaffe with super-characteristics, whose main goal was show-offs and window dressing to 3,14ndos.

[onix757]

And what is the ideal symbol of the Russian Federation? What is helpful?

[Corn]

In modern Russia, a lot is being done not for “spite of the 3,14ndos” but for people, for the good of the people and country.

And what is the ideal symbol of the Russian Federation?

How do you like this symbol?

[Good_Anonymous]

I understand that skyscrapers are for people? Do we know these people?

[onix757]

A symbol of greed ... Now it’s clear how to inspire Roskosmos when he decided to put something similar instead of a plant. But the saddest thing is that even such a mediocre symbol is a product of Western technology.

[nikvic46]

Karl.Symbol of the USSR was young people who did not need the custody of the Ministry of Internal Affairs. She lived free. And now even kindergartens are forced to protect them from freaks. They have freed and have no idea what to do with them.

[Corn]

youth lived free.

and therefore could not do what she wants, travel where she wants and live when she wants.
“Freedom is slavery, war is peace, ignorance is power”, thank you for the reminder.

And now even kindergartens are forced to guard against freaks

In the USSR, they did not protect people from freaks because there were no people ... but there were no less freaks than now.

[onix757]

In the USSR they did not protect people from freaks because there were no people ..

Are you a noble descendant whose ancestors were offended by the Soviet regime, or simply do not imagine life without a master?

[AU Ivanov.]

Free in what? In moving around the planet, in the ability to implement their projects?

[Good_Anonymous]

In the film, the spaceship is called the project of the empire. And these are by no means empty words.

An anti-Soviet can always be recognized by the words "Soviet empire".

[sniperino]

Quote: Good_Anonymous

An anti-Soviet can always be recognized by the words "Soviet empire".

And by what words can an adviser be recognized?

[U-58]

By the way, the year since Kalashnikov took over "Molniya"
Worps: why and what are the results?

[carstorm 11]

in a year? seriously want the results?) there is three years to rake there. not less.

[U-58]

I meant the tasks.
That is, gunsmiths in the small arms direction suddenly acquired a space firm. Moreover, even for the space industry, it is very specific.
Of course, the question arises, but what the hell?

[nikvic46]

I also contributed a microscopic share to this order. And I am offended when they call it unnecessary. "Nothing goes without a trace .."

[Corn]

. "Nothing passes without a trace .."

That's for sure. Even negative experience is also experience and it is useful.
The “energy-snowstorm” program has become an excellent visual example for posterity of how not to do it.

[Barmaleyka]

Quote: Corn

how to do it is not necessary.

so how should it be?!
can you compare with the mattress counterpart?

[U-58]

Of course, not without a trace!
So, dvigatli model 171 will go to the Irtysh (Soyuz-5)

[what's up]

The hunchback and the Yeltsin brigade at stake !!!!!!!!!!! 90% of Medveputov are also on the NUMBER!

[G. Georgiev]

I am from Bulgaria. I loved Russian cosmonautics. And now it’s a shame that even 40 tons cannot go into orbit because of the conservative old-fashioned thinking of old personnel.

[serge siberian]

Not old, but "new" cadres, who only stupidly pretend to be working for the good of the people.

[serge siberian]

After the Buran flight, it was the opinion of experts from space that it would launch satellites of various directions into orbit. The only thing is that a blizzard at that time without additional costs twice (as the video says) to launch is already a breakthrough friends. The project was closed on more than one-time petitions of the "partners" who, after the first flight, were trying to achieve this.

[Good_Anonymous]

Quote: serzh sibiryak

And the project was closed on more than one-time petitions of the "partners"

Everywhere betrayal, yeah.

[Karen]

Quote: Good_Anonymous

Everywhere betrayal, yeah.

Buran - this is financing in science ... Applied application would be obtained automatically ...
I want to give another example ... Funded by astronomers ... Victor Hambartsumyan was given the task of deriving mathematical formulas for cosmic dust ... It was these formulas that were later used in the search equipment for enemy submarines in 1944.

[Good_Anonymous]

Quote: Karen

Buran is funding for science ...

First of all, Buran is very expensive. And there was no more money.

Quote: Karen

Applied application would turn out automatically ...

What specific tasks did Buran demand?

[Karen]

I meant that everything that happened during the design / creation of Buran (technology) would be quietly implemented in the applied ...

[Good_Anonymous]

So what kind of applied tasks did Buran demand?

[Karen]

I repeat ... Buran is also funding for Soviet science ... For all Soviet science ... And not only for Buran as such ...

[Good_Anonymous]

That is, there were no applied problems for Buran. And science could be financed without its construction.

[Karen]

At that time I did not get to Buran in my work ... Although I worked on a topic from the resolution of the Supreme Council on the "Star" system.
... so I don’t know specifically about the applied tasks for Buran ...

[Avior]

the task of deriving mathematical formulas for cosmic dust ... It was these formulas that were later used in the search equipment for enemy submarines in 1944.

interesting. can you read more?

[Karen]

No, unfortunately, I can’t ... About this it was said here in connection with the application from the activities of V. Hambartsumyan ...

[Barmaleyka]

Quote: Good_Anonymous

Everywhere betrayal, yeah.

nuuuu .....
either this is idiocy or betrayal, frankly speaking, idiots did not make their way to the top, we conclude

[Good_Anonymous]

Oh yes. There are two simple reasons; there is no third.

[Barmaleyka]

Quote: Good_Anonymous

There is no third.

name

[Good_Anonymous]

And if I do not name, is he not? I am flattered by your trust.

[Barmaleyka]

no, it just means that you stupidly blurted out, and when asked for specifics merged

[Good_Anonymous]

Quote: Barmaleyka

merged

I don’t want to waste time on obviously useless explanations. You can consider it a drain, not a question.

[Barmaleyka]

well, as always, a "good" excuse

[Fevralsk. Morev]

Could not create this in the USSR themselves !!!!! Only galoshes were released, and then in Africa they exchanged.

[Barmaleyka]

Quote: Fevralsk. Morev

Could not create this in the USSR themselves !!!!! Only galoshes were released, and then in Africa they exchanged.

is it humor or nonsense?

[Fevralsk. Morev]

These words, about galoshes said Putin himself. Decide for yourself - he raved or joked.

[Gardamir]

Quote: Greg Miller

When Buran was created, our Great and Huge country was ruled by those who were in the trenches of the Great Patriotic War, who retreated to Moscow and Stalingrad, and then took Berlin ... They well understood the cost of defeat in the war and did everything to prevent this war from repeating ... These are the current pygmies ruling Russia, who grew up on speculation and farts, believe that there are only partners around, that you can agree with everyone and do not want to believe that they are still talking to them only because Russia has not yet lost those nuclear teeth that we were inserted by the same ones who gave the command to create "Buran" ...

[rocket757]

The Buran project was expensive, but since it gave impetus to the development of many areas of science, technology, production, it was justified. Of course, this reserve should have been rationally used, but ... we have what we have! In fact, betrayal and surrender of positions, interests of the country.
Okay, they condemned everyone .... radishes, they want to be virtual ... then what?
We drove, it's time to move on, and HOW? You can try to change the carriage, or you can harness together with the poor horse and drag our common carriage forward, forward!
Everyone makes their own choices, and they will have to do it TOGETHER anyway!

[bubalik]

The reusable Buran spacecraft, together with the Energia launch vehicle, was stored at the 110 site at the MIC for the year before the tragedy.

,,, morning of 12 on May 2002 of the year on the “Buran” together with the Energia rocket carrier ... the roof collapsed! Together with the 8-th workers who were repairing it at that moment and who provoked this collapse. The workers died. Later, the remains of the Buran were sawn up by the workers of the cosmodrome for scrap and quietly sold. In addition, they also quietly wrote off and then sold to the Chinese three mock-ups of the RD-0120 engine, which was promising at that time, for superheavy rocket carriers.

[Ros 56]

It is necessary for Gorbachev to erect a monument to JUDAH, to write so directly. I think this is not at all an exaggeration.

[Chit]

Quote: GKS 2111

I am still proud that I lived in the USSR. I am proud of the children I raised, proud of the rewards of the country, proud of the apartment that the country gave me. I was ready to die for that country. There will never be such a sense of pride and confidence in tomorrow. ..

And what, in fact, prevented? Die? In the 91st?

[Mestny]

This is their epic rally pathos.
Well, like in the old days "let's stand for the Russian land against the dark force."
As a carbon copy shpari. Well, under such an article, there are dances with tambourines right here.
Clearly, no real deeds or ideas behind their words are worth it. Empty verbiage with round dances, to save their sectarians from rupture of the lower brain in the process of familiarization with reality.

[Barmaleyka]

Tell me, how old were YOU ?!
I remember my reaction then, and you?

[Mestny]

Quote: Corn

The peak of the rise of the USSR was in 1922, when the tsarist legacy was still eaten, after which a continuous fall and universal shame began, which stopped only in 1991.

In vain you write it here. Today there is a bacchanalia of red trolls.

[Barmaleyka]

and in defense of this nonsense can you give statistic data on the "legacy", or crunching a roll will not allow?

[ccsr]

Quote: Mestny

In vain you write it here. Today there is a bacchanalia of red trolls.

Would you like a ball of lying ghouls here?
By the way, did they themselves work in Soviet times for at least five years to talk about the fictional USSR?

[Good_Anonymous]

Quote: Mestny

Today there is a bacchanalia of red trolls.

Yes, there are uncertain colors and trolls.

[Klingon]

Quote: Svarog

Quote: GKS 2111

I am still proud that I lived in the USSR. Such a sense of pride and confidence in the future will never be ...

I'm proud too! But I’m an optimist and I hope that we will return to socialism and imperial ambitions .. Russia must be an empire, it has always been it, only the last 30 years we have been hanging around like a product processed into an ice hole ..

and I was born lived and proud of the USSR. - The Empire strikes back!
only I think we need * a new Darth Vader *

[Lontus]

Soviet designers understood that the idea of ​​a flawed and miserable senile fraudulent American shuttle was stupid - which practice showed toughly.
Unfortunately, they did not have the opportunity to send three letters of the Kremlin elders and andropyshes in an attempt to force them to copy American shit.
They resisted (Glushko repeatedly stated that he would not do this stupid garbage) but as a result they could not withstand political pressure.
In automatic mode, he flew because the Life Support System (LSS) was not ready.
And there was no point in launching people on the IEO on almost 3000 tons of media.
At least here the techies sabotaged the orders of the party members and KGB officers who destroyed the country.

[ccsr]

Quote: Lontus

Soviet designers understood that the idea of ​​a flawed and miserable senile fraudulent American shuttle was stupid - which practice showed toughly.

I completely agree with this conclusion.

Quote: Lontus

At least here the techies sabotaged the orders of the party members and KGB officers who destroyed the country.

What other sabotage, if the "chief technician of the country" Ustinov himself insisted on this development. Well, who would dare not to fulfill at that time the Resolution of the Central Committee and the Council of Ministers?

[Lontus]

Quote: ccsr

Quote: Lontus
At least here the techies sabotaged the orders of the party members and KGB officers who destroyed the country.

What other sabotage, if the "chief technician of the country" Ustinov himself insisted on this development.

Ustinov was then, not the "chief technician", but the chief bureaucrat of the military ..
Yes, and he drove tricks with scum andropov, which already says a lot.

On December 12, 1979, at a meeting of the Politburo, Andropov, along with Ustinov, Gromyko and Tikhonov, were the main drafters of the resolution on the troops' water.

Wherein:
In October of the 79th year, Ustinov ordered the dismantling of the mountain rifle units, in particular the 105th Airborne Forces, and in December of that year this command was followed by the deaths of many Soviet soldiers whom Ustinov threw into Afghanistan with his accomplice Andropov!

What is this if not direct wrecking ??

Ustinov did a lot of harm to the armed forces.
The civilian marshal, who did not command any unit in his life, brought the SA in number to 4 million 500 thousand soldiers and officers, and adopted two types of MBT — for what ???
In 1980, again, with his strong-willed decision, Ustinov reorganized the Air Force and Air Defense, and after 4 years it turned out that this, to put it mildly, was not the right decision !!!

Ustinov lobbies for the development and production of ekranoplanes, and the sailors did not understand what to do with them ... "We asked 956th, 1164, 1155, and what did you give us projects?" .... " to the foe in the Mediterranean to shoot! "...." And what for are we keeping the BRAV brigade in Bulgaria? "..." And this is none of your business! " A lot of people's money down the drain and hundreds of ruined lives, someone answered for this to the people ????

That is, like Andropov (who imitated an absurd "type of toughness", but at the same time feeding up Russophobes and liberals) Ustinov imitated the greatness and power with stupid projects that ate up a sea of ​​resources, in fact, destroying useful directions.
From the same opera and Buran.

[ccsr]

Quote: Lontus

Ustinov was then, not the "chief technician", but the chief bureaucrat of the military ..

Well, this is too much, if only because he was responsible for the defense industry even under Stalin, so do not belittle his merits. Another thing is that he didn’t understand everything what he was doing, but the age crisis was a common disease of people of this level at that time.

Quote: Lontus

Ustinov did a lot of harm to the armed forces.

To be objective, the very appointment of Ustinov to the post of the Moscow Defense Ministry was harmful, but he did not play a decisive role in this appointment. So he himself is a victim of the circumstances of that country's governance, and in general, as the leader of the military-industrial complex, he was useful to our armed forces.

Quote: Lontus

What is this if not direct wrecking ??

Against the background of Yeltsin, he generally looks like a saint, so do not throw such accusations, although I personally think that his appointment to the post of MO was a big mistake.

[U-58]

Yes, what the hell, copying ?!
The Energia-Buran and Space Shuttle systems worked absolutely - differently.
And since our craft was chronologically younger, it turned out to be more digestible in technical terms.
They didn't "cook" the Toko ...

[sniperino]

Our aircraft operated up to speeds of Mach-three (Mach). And the flight speeds of the "Buran" spacecraft were calculated as Mach 28

We need to make a modern space drone and call it Lavrenty Beria. That will be a naughty liberal.

[Fevralsk. Morev]

Quote: Corn

The peak of the rise of the USSR was in 1922, when the royal heritage was still eaten up,

That's for sure. The commies fed up the royal heritage in the form of total illiteracy, tuberculosis and syphilis, child mortality, and the absence of industry.

[Old26]

Quote: depressant

Golovan Jack, whatever you say, the project was amazing, the impression was stunning. If you really took part in this project "at least", you should talk about it with undisguised pride, and not sketch here about the high cost. Further improvement reduces the cost of such projects. For example, it hurts me to talk about "Buran", as about a miracle that flashed and disappeared. How so?

The pride was. They did it no worse than the Americans. But what the carrier and the ship did without creating payloads is a fact. And the military for those years did not have loads of more than 7-10 tons. Why, in this case, create a ship that could lift 28-30 tons is not clear. "Our sworn friends" even though they immediately considered the commercial use of shuttles. But even they could not achieve such a cost reduction that the complex would become profitable.

So, alas, it was expensive. The Soviet Union would have lost absolutely nothing if they created a mini-shuttle with a carrying capacity of 10 tons, which could be launched on the same Protonoye, and possibly a lighter one to be launched by Soyuz. But alas, the elders from the Politburo said "do as the Americans do." So it didn't smell cheap from the beginning.

Quote: atalef

I attended the shift on duty at the start of Buran.
Already then there was talk among the officers about the simply unbearable cost of the project.
all the more, no reusability was envisaged (for energy) there was talk, but no more

The cost was such that it is even difficult to imagine. It is possible to announce the cost of the training complex for Buran (it was never completed in the star town). It included how many subsystems and the estimated cost of the training complex was about 4 billion rubles at the beginning of the 80s. .

And the reusability of the Energia was planned for the 5th or 6th flight, when it was planned to save the "sides". Alas, the central block with engines was not even planned to be saved. Unlike our "sworn friends", who only had a tank without engines ...

[Mityay65]

Quote: Old26

There was pride. They did no worse than the Americans.

Vladimir, but I was always annoyed by this topic - "Do not worse than the Yankees." She gives off such an inferiority complex that all pride sinks ... Especially Oleg Dmitrievich Baklanov, whom I deeply respect on the whole, as they said, loved this thesis in those times.
We were engaged in imitation, our development was deeply secondary in relation to the Shuttle. As well as all the ideas of space wars and weapons that were in that era ...

Quote: Old26

But what the carrier and the ship did without creating payloads is a fact. And the military for those years did not have loads of more than 7-10 tons. Why at the same time create a ship that could lift 28-30 tons - it is not clear.

For Energy, cargo was and was planned. First of all, a new DOS, God forbid weighing up to 1500 tons, as a first step. With a crew of up to 40 people. Under it, new blocks, farms, manipulators, energy, etc., were designed and worked on by the design departments. Secondly, it is a universal heavy communication platform, if it does not change memory, weighing 29 tons per GSO. This is just a very commercial thing. Thirdly, these are the planned expeditions to the moon and Mars. I have heard little about the Moon, but Mars has been actively and pedagogically discussed. Fourth, these are combat platforms, the prototype is Skif, of course.
So the Energy was all right.
But with the shuttle it is more difficult, if what was planned, it is well hidden to this day. This is understandable because Buran planned to use MO. My version is that they don’t know why they needed Buran, but they hoped that the Yankees were smart, they didn’t know ... He was unsuitable as a DOS supply ship.
In the same period, in parallel, the "Bubble" - KK "Zarya", by the way, was developed. Was to become the main DOS supply ship.

Quote: Old26

So, alas, it was expensive. The Soviet Union would have lost absolutely nothing if they created a mini-shuttle with a carrying capacity of 10 tons, which could be launched on the same Protonoye, and possibly a lighter one to be launched by Soyuz.

For Proton, there was a wonderful Chelomeevsk spacecraft TCS, and at Zenit - spacecraft Zarya. Only they were not winged. And thank God. A winged ship in space is nonsense. It is simply not needed - a dead end branch.

Quote: Old26

The cost was such that it is even difficult to imagine. It is possible to announce the cost of the training complex for Buran (it was never completed in the star town). It included how many subsystems and the estimated cost of the training complex was about 4 billion rubles at the beginning of the 80s. ...

This was the Soviet economy - a cost-based economy. There, prizes were given "for the development of funds in the 4th quarter", which in our time is pure nonsense. Amounts of money in Sov. the economy played almost no role - much more important was the allocation of funds by the State Planning Committee. And when the State Planning Committee singled out something, it immediately took into account the social sector: housing, kindergartens, clinics, etc.
Therefore, to say that Energia-Buran were de expensive is an empty phrase. More important are the resources for the project. For Soviet economics, the "super-expensive project" was for happiness - she grinded it with joy, and asked for more ... Look, Siberian hydroelectric power plants, one after another, were erected like seeds for 30 years and only rejoiced, and these were the world's largest construction projects at that time ...

[Old26]

Quote: Mityai65

Vladimir, but I was always annoyed by this topic - "Do not worse than the Yankees." She gives off such an inferiority complex that all pride fades ...

Alas, Dmitry, but we did SECOND. So that such a thesis is valid. We did after them, and no worse ... And pride ... If you did - you always have pride in your work, the first you did, the second or third

Quote: Mityai65

For Energy, cargo was and was planned. First of all, a new DOS, God forbid weighing up to 1500 tons, as a first step. With a crew of up to 40 people. Under it, new blocks, farms, manipulators, energy, etc., were designed and worked on by the design departments.

There is sometimes a gigantic distance between theoretical planning and real loads.
The new DOS, now known as MIR-2, was essentially the same size as MIR, although in architecture it was closer to the current joint ISS.
Yes, in the future, blocks of 80 tons were planned, and even almost an assembly shop in orbit (slipway), but this was in the very distant future, and often when using the Vulcan carrier, from which there were only drawings.
A crew of 40 people? I have not seen such numbers. The numbers in 12 were considered reasonable, with a maximum of 24 people. Usually 12-18

Quote: Mityai65

Secondly, it is a universal heavy communication platform, if it does not change memory, weighing 29 tons per GSO. This is just a very commercial thing.

Yes, a lot was written about this platform then. That's just the Ministry of Radio and Industry could give a maximum of 7-ton load. And consider it commercial?
At one time at the time of the development of our ship in KB, dealing with such topics were volumes of literature on the American shuttle. Among all, there were publications indicating prices. That is, how much this or that consumer will pay for a load of certain dimensions or mass. How much will it be cheaper for him if he cedes his position and leads not to No. 5, for example, but to No. 6. Moreover, very serious feasibility studies. Yes, and those that were unrealized. And here is a certain commercial subject - a platform, without load (which was still supposed to be created), without even trying to comprehend, but can we do this ... For the media, it was like flying to Mars or the Moon was spectacular.
In reality, the only burden, as you correctly wrote, is SKIF

[iouris]

The USSR was not an "empire" ("from the word" in general ""). Those who use the concept of "empire" in relation to the USSR are spitting not only on the history of their country, but also, possibly, in its future, which may exist. The USSR is the first anti-imperial project in the history of mankind, which contributed to the fall of all modern empires.