Military Review

About "unwashed" Europe

102

In recent years, a curious confrontation has been identified, which can be called somewhat ideological. On the one hand, those who operate on the words of M.Yu. Lermontov about “unwashed Russia”, and on the other, diametrically opposed, those who claim “unwashed Europe.”


Some arguments: no unwashed Russia existed, since there were baths everywhere in which Russians had been washing since ancient times, but Europe was so dirty that this is why the plague raged there. The arguments of others: unwashed Europe is a myth, everything was clean and beautiful in Europe, but Russia was buried in the mud along with all its people. The disputes of opponents sometimes reach bitterness, and they and others obviously do not intend to find any compromises in their theories.

The candidate of biological sciences, historian Fyodor Lisitsyn is trying to understand the issue and debunk what he considers to be myths. In particular, he cites the example of Patrick Suskind's book “Perfumer” (and a film made on this book), where the author writes that medieval Europe was dirty and smelly and only perfumers with perfumes and aromas created by their own hands somehow corrected the situation.

According to Fedor Lisitsyna, this work of art has sunk into the brains of many modern citizens who judge the past not by data from historical materials, namely by fiction.

The author in his video on “TV Day” tries to convey the idea that the statements about “unwashed Europe” and the plague epidemic that has arisen due to “European sewage” are to a greater extent not sound. At the same time, evidence of the Crusades came to our days, when the Saracens "found the crusaders by smell." According to the comments on the video, it becomes clear that not everyone shares the opinion of the historian.
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medieval painting
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  1. Loess
    Loess 15 November 2019 11: 45 New
    +7
    At the same time, evidence of the Crusades came to our days, when the Saracens "found the crusaders by smell."
    Immediately imagined sniffing Saracen)
    1. GKS 2111
      GKS 2111 15 November 2019 12: 16 New
      +18
      We washed in bathhouses for a long time, when the "enlightened Europe" poured mud from the windows onto each other ... laughingWide-brimmed hats were invented for this. Kings hid stench with spirits because they never washed themselves.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Pravodel
        Pravodel 15 November 2019 12: 53 New
        +7
        Perfume was just invented so that our dear Westerners would not stink. It is a well-known fact that the Pope was very surprised when he found out that Russians are soaring in baths and quilting themselves with brooms. He mistook this for religious torment and sent a special envoy to confirm whether this was true.
        1. Antares
          Antares 15 November 2019 13: 35 New
          +12
          Quote: The Truth
          Perfume was just invented so that our dear Westerners would not stink.

          it is very strange but mankind invented fragrant mixtures much earlier than the advent of the West and Russia. And widely used them in the Ancient World.
          And since Ancient Rome was very developed with a sewage system and mass baths, then no west and Russia could compete with Rome for the largest cities and disease control for a long time.
          Civilization begins with a sewer!
          And with this in the West it was bad (although partly still Roman) and in Russia (partly wooden but very little)
          Both sides were "unwashed" and diseases like the plague (brought from China in three waves) appeared not because unwashed but because there were no methods of struggle.
          No need to stamp ideas of information war who was washed there We or THEY *
          both sides were the same in this regard.
          Reading Peter the Great - Europe is cleaner there, reading Razin - it was very dirty.
          Reading the West, there is generally a gloom of the common people in cities (lack of sewage)
          darkness was in Russian cities before the sewer.
          In short, everyone was dirty.
          Until they again remembered the Rome system. (I will remind the cities of a millionaire because of the sewer and term)
          I've been thinking about syphilis ... if not for him --- the heyday of the sciences and women's freedoms had come much earlier!
          And so tightened the religious nuts ... yes, the moral toughened ..
          ehh and the times were ..
          1. Mestny
            Mestny 15 November 2019 14: 33 New
            +7
            But no godless chemistry. Environmentally friendly slops and death at age 45 without drugs and electricity.
            1. Oleg (Kharkov)
              Oleg (Kharkov) 15 November 2019 17: 57 New
              +8
              Quote: Mestny
              death at 45

              forty-five is nothing for those times.
              there were no antibiotics, picked up a banal pneumonia, you are a corpse with a high probability. Appendicitis, a corpse, has become inflamed. Almost 25 percent death during childbirth.
              Suffice it to say that up to the 10th century, almost half of Russian boys did not live up to the age of XNUMX!
              1. phair
                phair 17 November 2019 09: 44 New
                +1
                Appendectomy and removal of stones in the ICD in the Middle Ages were practiced (by hairdressers). But survival :( And about unwashed Russia, it’s not Lermontov, but the ancestor of the bull (which is not bulls), they like to take pseudonyms. Googling Kuprin’s letter to Batyushkov.
                1. Oleg (Kharkov)
                  Oleg (Kharkov) 17 November 2019 10: 45 New
                  +1
                  Claudius amyand
                  Quote: phair
                  Appendectomy and removal of stones in the ICD in the Middle Ages were practiced (by hairdressers)

                  The first reliable appendectomy was performed in 1735 (and this is by no means the Middle Ages and not even the Renaissance. This is the "Age of Enlightenment") in London, the royal surgeon, founder of St. George's Hospital. Prior to this, they were treated conservatively.
                  Russian surgeons continued to adhere to expectant tactics, resorting to surgical intervention only when complications appeared. Actively, they began to operate on appendicitis only in 1909, after the IX Congress of Russian Surgeons.

                  Pictured: The surgeon uses a puppy to heat the bowels that tumble out of a wound on his stomach. Think it over. I would prefer to live in Pripyat and there are only GMO products grown in chemistry. At the same time, there are much more chances to live up to the shorthand.
                  1. phair
                    phair 18 November 2019 01: 04 New
                    0
                    http://garbuzenko62.ru/Kolesov_monografiya.pdf

                    The first period, which lasted several centuries, until 1884,
                    characterized by the fact that surgeons at that time performed only an autopsy
                    ulcers of the right iliac region without removing the vermiform
                    process. Wheels "Appendicitis" 1959. Forgot;) Not a surgeon.
            2. Antares
              Antares 15 November 2019 23: 23 New
              +5
              Quote: Mestny
              Environmentally friendly slops and death at age 45 without drugs and electricity.

              25-30, mostly violent. Or from such diseases, which are often easily treated with a set of pharmacies.
            3. Amurets
              Amurets 17 November 2019 07: 24 New
              +1
              Quote: Mestny
              Environmentally friendly slops and death at age 45 without drugs and electricity.

              The electric chair, along with the guillotine, greatly contributes to the fight against .epidences and prolonging life. laughing laughing
          2. akunin
            akunin 15 November 2019 22: 04 New
            +5
            beginning of the 80s. I stand in a line in a rural store, in front of me the head of a small-scale farm, I will turn in front - the smell of perfume + manure, turn my back - in manure (this is to say that I don’t remember how the perfume doesn’t sprinkle). century) the story of how cheremis washed one bucket of water for 19 people of cockroaches and lice (fleas) was also enough in Russian huts. With plague in Russia it was more or less calm, but cholera was a frequent guest in Ukraine, the Caucasus and the south of Russia.
            I've been thinking about syphilis
            everything was “perfect” with tuberculosis too (a little worse than now).
          3. Geo⁣
            Geo⁣ 17 November 2019 00: 55 New
            +3
            Quote: Antares
            no west and Russia have long been able to compete with Rome in terms of cities and disease control

            Yeah. It was especially useful to eat from lead dishes and aqueducts to finish them). There is much to learn!
            And yes, Roman sanitation didn’t go into every apartment building, so they had to pour it into the streets no worse than medieval Europeans
            1. max702
              max702 17 November 2019 12: 20 New
              +1
              In the UK, things are no better, if not worse. Up to 40% of households are still supplied with water through lead pipes
              In addition, public opinion itself does not take seriously the danger of lead pipes and solders based on lead in water systems.

              When I asked my American colleague how they would solder copper pipes after the ban on lead solder, the answer was something like this:

              Yes, I know about the ban on lead solders, but those without lead are more expensive and more difficult to solder (melt worse). Therefore, many plumbers go to the flea market and buy old lead solder, it is still for sale. And for the inspector, they hold in their suitcase a skein of new, authorized.

              Sites of American plumbers abound with tips on how to connect modern copper pipes to old lead:
            2. Antares
              Antares 17 November 2019 13: 14 New
              -3
              Quote: Geo⁣
              Yeah. It was especially useful to eat from lead dishes and aqueducts to finish them). There is much to learn!

              even the accumulation of lead in the body will lead to death later than lack of hygiene!
              You still remember asbestos!
              Death from old age is not at all characteristic of those times. And the Romans did it!
              Quote: Geo⁣
              And yes, Roman sanitation didn’t go into every apartment building, so they had to pour it into the streets no worse than medieval Europeans

              The toilet and sewage system are public. Public terms. In the Middle Ages, this was not enough.
              The toilet in Rome was public, then paid (money doesn’t smell), weakened at the point going out to Cloaca (sewage system in the form of a flowing underground river), wrote in the groove underfoot - collected and used urine (a strategic product of household chemicals). Wipe with reusable sponges on a stick.
              In general, disputes are pointless!
              Let us take the density and number of Rome and its cities and the Middle Ages!
              For this is an indicator.
              In general, the strength of Ancient Rome throughout Europe was reached after 1100!
              the population of Rome reached 700 thousand (according to various studies). I was mistaken above - the first "millionaire" was Baghdad.
              Rome, although it was an agricultural country, but in cities was 10% of the population.
              With the Early Middle Ages it was much worse.
              Cities such as Florence, Milan, Venice, Genoa, Paris, London, with more than 50 inhabitants at the beginning of the 000th century, were considered huge. The vast majority of urban centers totaled no more than 2 - 000 inhabitants, and even less.
              Once again - Civilization begins with a sewer!
              And hygiene allows you to cope with all the mass diseases (thanks to both Arabs and Chinese)
              Another moral. (Especially with syphilis)
    2. marshes
      marshes 15 November 2019 12: 27 New
      +1
      Quote: Less
      Immediately imagined sniffing Saracen)

      Yes, there was such a stench to the campaign, that it was not necessary to sniff.
      Limited water, physiology of Europeans and religion.
    3. K-50
      K-50 15 November 2019 12: 53 New
      -3
      Quote: Less
      Immediately imagined sniffing Saracen)

      If the Saracen begins to sniff, then his breath will catch from spasms. They probably defined the crusaders as the “top instinct”. lol
    4. demo
      demo 15 November 2019 15: 05 New
      -1
      If Saracen began to sniff carefully, then he fainted - this is at best.
    5. Catfish
      Catfish 15 November 2019 16: 44 New
      +3
      One Western scientist suggested that a man at the dawn of his existence stank so that even the most hungry predator disdained it as a snack. That’s why the human race survived smile
      1. mister-red
        mister-red 16 November 2019 23: 48 New
        +1
        Haha - these were the favorite words of our military instructor: man is the most stinking animal, therefore he survived)))) it was a long time ago, in the late 70s. I think that he did not read from Western scientists. So the bike is old)))
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 17 November 2019 14: 59 New
          +1
          Your military instructor was a man with a sense of humor, a rare occurrence. smile
        2. Earth
          Earth 27 November 2019 23: 41 New
          +1
          Quote: mister-red
          man is the most stinking animal, and therefore survived)))) it was a long time ago, in the late 70s. I think that he didn’t read from Western scientists

          not really. Primates smell average (although they don’t need to remove the smell like predators) among species.
          But the stiff smell is present from food of animal origin.
          But we had no choice. Either be carnivorous and live all over the planet, or die.
      2. Geo⁣
        Geo⁣ 17 November 2019 01: 02 New
        +1
        Have you ever sniffed a bear in the forest?)))
        Especially when you approach the den abandoned by your master in the spring, you immediately feel it.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 17 November 2019 14: 58 New
          +1
          Have you ever sniffed a bear in the forest?)))


          No, I was dribbling from him with terrible speed. Khabarovsk Territory, winter, 32nd caliber and shot on the hazel grouse, and in the clearing "cake" smokes. Rushed together with a friend in the direction of the firing town with the second space, where our TST worked out. They escaped, but the hunt did not work. True, and the bear had the mind not to climb behind us under machine guns.
    6. Mikhalych
      Mikhalych 17 November 2019 10: 04 New
      +1
      I am 69 years old. When I was about 17-18 years old, my friend told me about the impressions of her father from a trip to France with a delegation. They were shown the palace of the French kings. From medieval dresses on mannequins carried so much later ... So what about the Saracens is quite real.
      crying
  2. Barmaleyka
    Barmaleyka 15 November 2019 11: 56 New
    +8
    The author, in his video on TV Day, is trying to convey the idea that statements about “unwashed Europe” and the plague epidemic that arose due to “European impurities” are largely untenable.
    Well, traps for lice and ermines are fiction, and wide-brimmed hats from the sun covered wassat
    1. knn54
      knn54 15 November 2019 12: 31 New
      +5
      Lice were not found only in silk, hence the satin robes of aristocrats
      PS
      - Monsieur. And where do you swim?
      All not.
      And in the winter?
      And what about that winter ...
  3. Evil echo
    Evil echo 15 November 2019 12: 07 New
    +3
    another creation from overton windows
    1. lucul
      lucul 15 November 2019 12: 10 New
      +3
      another creation from overton windows

      And there is . )))
      Another Huseynov shot a movie .....
  4. rocket757
    rocket757 15 November 2019 12: 15 New
    +4
    The truth is still somewhere not there, not there ....
    In fact, humanity has changed, living conditions have changed .... in short, there are many changes, and the division into clean and dirty, as it was, remains!
    There are some hostel rules that most people follow, and this is our reality!
    1. Same lech
      Same lech 15 November 2019 12: 21 New
      +5
      In fact, humanity has changed, living conditions have changed ....

      Not very strong ... such garbage can be found today in civilized Europe ...



      If you rummage in their civilization, you can dig a lot of unpleasant things there.
      Therefore, I am always surprised by the attempts of Europeans to teach us how to live when they themselves poke their nose in the old fashioned way.
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 15 November 2019 12: 26 New
        +3
        Such garbage dumps sometimes arise in our country, either covered or not ...
        This is not a system error, it is "imprisoned" for purity, it’s the costs \ nonsense of modern .... governing t.s. . It’s just that we have methods to stimulate the negligent (dignity of one-man management), and they have neither leverage nor caring power!
        1. Same lech
          Same lech 15 November 2019 12: 32 New
          +2
          It’s all so ... but in Russians they are trying to hang the stamp of unwashed barbarians precisely from the side of the most unwashed Europe ... in which if you scrape its skin you can find such a layer of barbarism ... Mama Do not Cry.
          1. rocket757
            rocket757 15 November 2019 12: 45 New
            +2
            Quote: The same Lech
            It’s all so ... but in Russians they are trying to hang the stamp of unwashed barbarians precisely from the side of the most unwashed Europe ... in which if you scrape its skin you can find such a layer of barbarism ... Mama Do not Cry.

            There is such a desire ... however, there are generally many desires, over the edge. Our FRIENDLY to them ... you guys go through the woods and there satisfy your wishlist.
            We do it as it should and we will do it as it should!
      2. akunin
        akunin 15 November 2019 22: 10 New
        +1
        beginning of the 80s, city of Perm, ul.sh. astronauts (corner from Odoyevsky St.), there were garbage bins, where they took out the garbage from several apartment buildings. The bins changed their residence permit, and the garbage was put in this place for another six months
    2. Barmaleyka
      Barmaleyka 15 November 2019 12: 22 New
      +6
      Quote: rocket757
      In fact, humanity has changed,

      not sure
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 15 November 2019 12: 31 New
        0
        The change in stop altogether does not affect some or even groups of individuals!
        Society is changing, the person is “monkey” primitive, as it was so ... and if she has the opportunity to release the brakes, many will do so.
    3. marshes
      marshes 15 November 2019 12: 29 New
      +3
      Quote: rocket757
      The truth is still somewhere not there, not there .... In fact, humanity has changed, living conditions have changed .... in short, there are many changes, and the division into neat and dirty, as it was, remains! There are some rules for living in a hostel, which the majority respects, this is our reality!

      I agree to 100, in the army a closer team everything is visible.
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 15 November 2019 12: 48 New
        +3
        Quote: marshes
        I agree to 100, in the army a closer team everything is visible.

        In a tight collective, common interests prevail over the desires of individuals ... this was the case before, at least. There are rules, kindly follow them.
        In this case, coercion is a blessing that all sorts of different people would not say there.
        1. marshes
          marshes 15 November 2019 12: 55 New
          +1
          Quote: rocket757
          In a tight collective, common interests prevail over the desires of individuals ... this was the case before, at least. There are rules, be so kind as to comply with them. In this case, coercion is a blessing that all kinds of different people would not say there.

          And then they wonder why they humiliate someone. I wanted to put it another way.
          I met with such individuals that their clothes were standing and they themselves probably need to be soaked in liquor in order to wash. It was noticeable how they dropped.
          1. rocket757
            rocket757 15 November 2019 12: 58 New
            +1
            Quote: marshes
            I met with such individuals that their clothes were standing and they themselves probably need to be soaked in liquor in order to wash. It was noticeable how they dropped.

            We didn’t have such a thing .... in general, it’s hard to imagine such a thing.
  5. lucul
    lucul 15 November 2019 12: 17 New
    +8
    Yaroslav the Wise gave his daughter for the king of the Franks - this is a well-known fact.
    So, she wrote letters to her father complaining of an unbearable stink in those parts. These letters are almost 1000 years old.
    In general, if you think about the truth, you can find it among the Byzantines or among the Arabs. They were supposed to describe Western Europe from the early Middle Ages as eyewitnesses. The Byzantines themselves were neat, and the baths from them came to us everywhere.
    It is necessary to remake the Byzantine records - the only way to get to the truth.
    VO could well deal with this issue ....
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 15 November 2019 12: 48 New
      0
      Quote: lucul
      VO could well deal with this issue.

      To get to the bottom, you first need to get there.
      1. lucul
        lucul 15 November 2019 12: 49 New
        0
        To get to the bottom, you first need to get there

        No-no - the main desire.
        1. tihonmarine
          tihonmarine 15 November 2019 12: 51 New
          0
          Quote: lucul
          No-no - the main desire

          There is a desire, there are no opportunities.
    2. Alexzn
      Alexzn 15 November 2019 20: 17 New
      -1
      Strange ... the story goes that the daughter was illiterate ... Can I see these letters? Where are they? Who saw them?
      Here it is, the letters from the book of Maurice Druon are given out as historical facts.
      1. lucul
        lucul 15 November 2019 20: 41 New
        +2
        Strange ... the story goes that the daughter was illiterate ..

        Whose story is it? )))
        Why does the “illiterate” daughter need a prayer book, which, after 500 years, read Peter 1, when he looked in France, during a “tour” in Europe? )))
        1. Alexzn
          Alexzn 15 November 2019 23: 14 New
          -2
          Quote: lucul
          Strange ... the story goes that the daughter was illiterate ..

          Whose story is it? )))
          Why does the “illiterate” daughter need a prayer book, which, after 500 years, read Peter 1, when he looked in France, during a “tour” in Europe? )))

          To be correct, the story doubts its literacy, the maximum - it was illiterate. There is not a single line written to her. The presence of prayer books or a bible among the noble persons of that time only indicates that they were given them (these were very expensive gifts at that time), not more.
      2. Tenet
        Tenet 16 November 2019 23: 31 New
        +6
        in Veliky Novgorod, they found a birch bark certificate, with an assignment for a boy and a list of products that needed to be bought !!! They knew how to read in Novgorod from childhood, and let’s give a link to Maurice ... and all the rules. download furtherrepeat
    3. Antares
      Antares 15 November 2019 23: 30 New
      +4
      Quote: lucul
      So, she wrote letters to her father complaining of an unbearable stink in those parts. These letters are almost 1000 years old.

      Anna's letter where
      “To which barbaric country did you send me; here dwellings are gloomy, churches are ugly and morals are terrible. ”
      "And where did you send me, the sinner, to send me? To the smelly hole, to France, to the town of Paris, be it wrong!"
      It's fake. There, for one spoon and forks, it is clear that Anna could not write this in the 11th century!
      in Russia, the fork first appears at the beginning of the XVII century. Marina Mnishek at one time greatly shocked Moscow society, starting to eat with a fork at a banquet.
      And the burning of witches in the 11th century, someone too wanted to write this letter in stamps ...
      In general, it was laid out in detail why this is fake (fork spoons, cutlets, witches, vodka, etc.)
      1. Alexzn
        Alexzn 15 November 2019 23: 36 New
        -1
        Quote: Antares
        So, she wrote letters to her father complaining of an unbearable stink in those parts. These letters are almost 1000 years old.

        Anna's letter where
        “To which barbaric country did you send me; here dwellings are gloomy, churches are ugly and morals are terrible. ”
        "And where did you send me, the sinner, to send me? To the smelly hole, to France, to the town of Paris, be it wrong!"
        It's fake. There, for one spoon and forks, it is clear that Anna could not write this in the 11th century!
        in Russia, the fork first appears at the beginning of the XVII century. Marina Mnishek at one time greatly shocked Moscow society, starting to eat with a fork at a banquet.
        And the burning of witches in the 11th century, someone too wanted to write this letter in stamps ...
        In general, it was laid out in detail why this is fake (fork spoons, cutlets, witches, vodka, etc.)

        So the proposed myth about the prayer book of Anna is also nothing more than a myth, for beauty they also dragged Peter.
        1. lucul
          lucul 16 November 2019 13: 51 New
          +2
          So the proposed myth about the prayer book of Anna is also nothing more than a myth, for beauty they also dragged Peter.

          Yeah, and the Torah means the original in the last resort, and all the Russian myth a priori? )))
          Maybe first look in the mirror? )))
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. Antares
            Antares 17 November 2019 13: 19 New
            -3
            Quote: lucul
            and all the Russian myth a priori? )))

            much more western legends are myths (if it’s easier for you!)
            just everyone is reverent about their myths. And aliens joyfully destroy.
            They generally like to distort and invent history. But famous people or events, there is no end to fakes and myths!
            But a specific fake about Pure Russia and Dirty Europe has long been put on the shelves and put up for a common laughing stock. As a product of the information war of domestic consumption.
            And in Russia. And how long! It is enough to read contemporaries or literature. Not necessarily me or other "debunkers."
            Tolstoy wrote well about "pure Russia" ...
            Many Westerners wrote in great detail about the terrifying dirtiness of Western cities.
            There are enough sources.
      2. Russian jacket
        Russian jacket 17 November 2019 03: 14 New
        +2
        Even the National Geographic channel shows programs about the persecution and burning of witches in Europe, in particular in Spain and Britain, and gives data on the reduction of the female population in the Middle Ages ..... Apparently I do not know that this is a fake ....
        1. Antares
          Antares 17 November 2019 13: 26 New
          -4
          Quote: Russian quilted jacket
          Even the National Geographic channel shows programs on the persecution and burning of witches in Europe, in particular in Spain and Britain, and provides data on the reduction of the female population in the Middle Ages.

          much more than the destruction of witches — climate change killed the population (crop failure, hunger and poor trade development — there was no food import).
          It is the persecution of women that is the result of hunger and disease.
          In northern countries, on the contrary, more men were burned.
          In Russia, religious reprisals against witches and ministers of objectionable religions also blazed.
          The Russian church carefully destroyed opium rivals for the people.
          Ergot could also contribute to mood. Yes, and other illnesses.
          1. Russian jacket
            Russian jacket 18 November 2019 06: 24 New
            +1
            In one interesting book, I did not read such a comparison verbatim ..... "The Russian schism, the painful for us, cannot be compared with Europe. Russian bonfires for several centuries, This is one day of the Albiguian war, half of Bartholomew’s night, the day of the Louis Dragonnade ( I don’t remember the numbers) "... This is if about men as well. And you are right about the search for those responsible for hunger and disease ... But this is only part of the Inquisition. Just do not need about the number of people ... In percent, Europe is still ahead hi
    4. Selevc
      Selevc 18 November 2019 13: 06 New
      +1
      "In general, if you think about the truth, you can find it among the Byzantines or among the Arabs ..."
      Byzantium is generally an extremely curious country - a country with a name invented by historians !!! It turns out that the Byzantines did not call themselves so - they called themselves Romans !!! Wildness isn't it? It’s not even savagery, it’s a crime of historians - left on the pages of textbooks !!! The name Byzantium is given to a huge power with a thousand-year history by the name of a small provincial town ... This is ridiculous !!! - this is the same as calling England for example Bristol or France calling Marcelia ... I think that this was done maliciously with the aim of belittling and hiding the great past of the Eastern European peoples ...

      It turns out that the Romans are the Romans in Greek !!! And if you correctly call Byzantium the Eastern Roman Empire !!! - it turns out that Russia and other countries of Eastern Europe are not a "gathering of wild Scythians" but the legitimate descendants of an ancient Roman civilization !!! This is the Western Roman Empire destroyed by barbarians and the Eastern stood another 1000 years after the collapse of the Western !!!
      And only a treacherous blow to the back of the Crusader knights destroyed it !!! Probably in the West they hated Constantinople already then !!!
      Western Europe inspires Eastern Europe with the myth of its savagery and bankruptcy, and this process has been going on for hundreds of years, and this can be seen even on the pages of history textbooks !!!
  6. Masha
    Masha 15 November 2019 12: 22 New
    +6
    the author decided to wash the unwashed Europe ....
    1. Prisoner
      Prisoner 15 November 2019 12: 32 New
      0
      laughing Vain attempts. You cannot fool genetics.
    2. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 15 November 2019 12: 46 New
      0
      Quote: Masha
      the author decided to wash the unwashed Europe.

      Well, how do you wash it if there were no baths.
      1. Antares
        Antares 15 November 2019 23: 33 New
        0
        Quote: tihonmarine
        Well, how do you wash it if there were no baths.

        The terms of Ancient Rome were all over Europe.
        Traditions have lived much more technology (water procedures and sewage of the Romans)
        Thanks to Rome - Europe was much cleaner
        and in terms of population density it’s clearly ahead (although here the climate is well and the technology of Rome)
        Nothing - then the Arabs brought the torch of civilization to Europe
        1. Geo⁣
          Geo⁣ 17 November 2019 01: 56 New
          +1
          Quote: Antares
          The terms of ancient Rome were all over Europe

          Seriously? Can you say for sure, all over Europe - how much and where? laughing
    3. marshes
      marshes 15 November 2019 12: 49 New
      +1
      Quote: Masha
      the author decided to wash the unwashed Europe ....

      Take our cities where there is no central hot water supply, or rather a local type of boiler. As the heating season ends, there is no hot water. Residents install electric boilers or gas if the gas is main. Some people on the balconies heat water in eggplants. Lucky people who have relatives in a private house live here and a bath and shower from the sun.
      That's how people survive, not like Europe.
      Yes, and in the morning, there are counters everywhere, everyone is waiting for who the first water will begin to drain from the riser. laughing
      1. Mouse
        Mouse 15 November 2019 12: 55 New
        0
        Have you felt all the hardships on yourself? I felt sorry for you ... crying
        1. marshes
          marshes 15 November 2019 12: 58 New
          0
          Quote: Mouse
          Have you felt all the hardships on yourself? I felt sorry for you ...

          Why didn’t they live like that, didn’t they recognize the garrison life?
          1. Mouse
            Mouse 15 November 2019 13: 20 New
            +2
            I didn’t have to somehow warm the water on the balcony ... the boiler seems to have been invented for a long time ... and if you wait until the neighbors drive the water out of the riser, you can be late for work ... laughing
            1. marshes
              marshes 15 November 2019 13: 38 New
              +1
              Quote: Mouse
              I didn’t have to somehow warm the water on the balcony ... the boilers seemed to have been invented for a long time ...

              I had to come from the PUC all the dusty, they cut off hot water in the spring, and used the boiler in the winter to warm the water before, I still have a kilowatt.
              To wash and wash, it is good that there were no children.
              Quote: Mouse
              and if you wait until the neighbors drive the water along the riser, you can be late for work ...

              Especially when lean pensioners live in the bonnet. They have nowhere to hurry, the finish is soon.
      2. Xnumx vis
        Xnumx vis 15 November 2019 13: 34 New
        +2
        Quote: marshes
        Yes, and in the morning, there are counters everywhere, everyone is waiting for who the first water will begin to drain from the riser.

        The terrible redneck you lived there ... Squids and goons. A friend visits his family in (German wife from Kazakhstan) Germany. I was surprised how they washed the floors with this water ... The strictest savings .. And the unsanitary conditions naturally ... Europe is called!
        1. marshes
          marshes 15 November 2019 13: 46 New
          +1
          Quote: 30 vis
          The terrible redneck you lived there ... Squids and goons. A friend visits his family in (German wife from Kazakhstan) Germany. I was surprised how they washed the floors with this water ... The strictest savings .. And the unsanitary conditions naturally ... Europe is called

          I have relatives in the north-westwestphalia, a private house, they save water but not to the extremes, especially since their town has centralized gas supply. I got permission to install a sauna on my gas boiler in my yard inside. The architectural view of the facade has not changed, but as an extension to the house it was forbidden to build, like a household building.
      3. tihonmarine
        tihonmarine 16 November 2019 11: 29 New
        0
        Quote: marshes
        Yes, and in the morning, there are counters everywhere, everyone is waiting for who the first water will begin to drain from the riser

        This is the most important thing for a city man.
  7. Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 15 November 2019 12: 31 New
    0
    Channel promotion? Interestingly, at least the site is paid for it?
  8. tihonmarine
    tihonmarine 15 November 2019 12: 45 New
    +1
    allegations of a "dirty Europe" and the plague epidemic arising from the "European sewage" are largely untenable
    For the plague, that clean, that dirty, she indiscriminately enough ..
    1. Antares
      Antares 15 November 2019 23: 37 New
      +1
      Quote: tihonmarine
      For the plague, that clean, that dirty, she indiscriminately enough ..

      according to the description of the plague in Moscow - it is characterized by the spread in crowds (religious gatherings, touch) in families --- someone brought and everything there in the house,
      in public places, etc.
      and no matter who visited the bathhouse there (and by the way, they also got infected there)
      And due to religion, the plague spread very much ...
      They prohibit moves - but fanatics still gathered and the plague mowed down their ranks by hundreds. They also killed the fighters with the plague ...
      and theft of clothes from the plague?
      They also forbade it, but whom did it stop ...
      1. tihonmarine
        tihonmarine 16 November 2019 11: 34 New
        0
        Quote: Antares
        They also killed the plague fighters ...
        and theft of clothes from the plague?

        And now the more severe plague of the 21 century has come - "Ebola".
        1. Antares
          Antares 17 November 2019 13: 38 New
          0
          Quote: tihonmarine
          And now the more severe plague of the 21 century has come - "Ebola".

          compare the scale of the plague for humanity?
          With an ebola scale?
          Yersinia pestis kills over 100 million people
          Nevertheless, the human body has not learned to cope with Yersinia pestis on its own. Modern treatment for plague includes the use of antibiotics such as streptomycin, tetracycline, gentamicin. Despite this, antibiotics are not always able to cope with the disease, and the patient needs the support of the respiratory or circulatory system (and may also end in death)
          By the way, the plague wand, having mutated 10 thousand years ago, turned into a huge problem of humanity (as indeed many diseases)
          With regard to Ebola, more than 10 thousand people. Mostly in Africa.
          Treatment
          Supportive care with oral or intravenous fluids and treatment of specific symptoms improves survival. An approved treatment for EVD does not yet exist
          But the vaccines appeared quite quickly (here it is Progress!)
          for example
          The rVSV-ZEBOV vaccine is being used during the current Ebola outbreak 2018–2019. in DRC. Initial data indicate the high efficacy of this vaccine. The WHO Strategic Advisory Expert Group has expressed the need to evaluate additional Ebola vaccines.
          What did humanity have during Justian? And the next waves of the Plague?
          Cross? Oh yes ... religion ... but self-hypnosis does not help from the plague ....
          1. tihonmarine
            tihonmarine 17 November 2019 17: 52 New
            0
            Quote: Antares
            The WHO Strategic Advisory Expert Group has expressed the need to evaluate additional Ebola vaccines.

            But Ebola was not defeated and it is advancing. Last year I visited the DRC, Boma, Matadi. I won’t go there anymore. You listen to their people, and I think this is not the end.
    2. birs
      birs 16 November 2019 02: 36 New
      0
      There is a difference. It was found that for a body steamed after washing, the chance of catching the plague is even slightly, but higher than for the unwashed. The fear of the plague was so great that they stopped mass washing at all, and for several centuries.
      1. Antares
        Antares 17 November 2019 13: 43 New
        0
        Quote: birs
        It was found that for a body steamed after washing, the chance of catching the plague is even slightly, but higher than for the unwashed. The fear of the plague was so great that they stopped mass washing at all, and for several centuries

        I will correct
        From about the end of the XNUMXth century, the baths began to be closed due to the plague epidemic. When the townspeople came to wash, they dumped their clothes in the same room. Fleas that suffered the plague freely jumped on the vestments of a healthy person, and then infected him. People decided that bathing (clean water) spreads the plague, so they abandoned this procedure.
        fear of death overcomes logic, religion and more ..
        So - quarantine primarily concerned public places. And the first bathhouse was banned!
  9. K-50
    K-50 15 November 2019 12: 51 New
    +3
    What kind of cleanliness in Europe can we talk about if anyone in the palace in Paris could go behind any curtain, curtain and lighten up without bothering to search for a toilet. If lice were considered "God's creatures" and it was not considered shameful that they crawl over a person, albeit a king. lol
    And this is at a time when in Russia there was a weekly mandatory washing in a bathhouse with linen of clothes and clothes.
    1. Antares
      Antares 15 November 2019 23: 46 New
      +1
      Quote: K-50
      when in Russia there was a weekly obligatory washing in a bathhouse with linen of clothes and clothes.

      With the growth of European cities in the IX-X centuries. public bath complexes appeared in them, where one could wash with soap, cut hair, shave, and put leeches. People gathered in baths as naturally and often as they did in churches; and these bathing establishments were designed for all classes, so they were liable to seignorial duties like mills, blacksmiths and drinking establishments
      In this kind of institution, they bathed in an individual wooden bathtub or in a common pool, but there were also special steam rooms where the air was heated by hot stones, and the clients were not in the water, but simply on the benches. From ancient doctors, the medieval inherited the idea of ​​the health benefits of the steam room; for example, St. Hildegard of Bingen, who wrote in the XII century. works on medicine, advised in case of illnesses to drink decoctions of medicinal plants (parsley, thyme, chamomile, tansy, mint, lavender, rosemary, etc.) in a bathhouse and at the same time give them to hot stones and breathe this vapor
      in 1249, 26 public baths operated in Paris. These baths worked, according to the documents, 6 days a week.
      ("Registers of Crafts and Trade of the City of Paris" in Statute LXXIII)
      . At about the same time, there were 29 baths in Vienna, and in small Nuremberg, for example - 9. Similar information is easily found in any other medieval city. In Frankfurt at the end of the 25th century, the bathhouse workshop included XNUMX “licensed” specialists
      What about soap -
      The “soap capitals” were Italian cities and Marseille - if you look around the XNUMXth century. However, later large-scale productions begin to be traced decisively everywhere: from Scandinavia to Castile, from England to Hungary.
      So "Dirty Europe" due to the lack of baths is a lie.
      Baths, soap, water treatment facilities, etc. everything was there.
      And about the curtains in Paris ...
      READ by Peter the Great and his complaints about the inhabitants of Moscow (17th century, if that already)
      that crap right on the doorstep, too lazy to get to the pit!
      1. K-50
        K-50 16 November 2019 12: 02 New
        +1
        Quote: Antares
        So "Dirty Europe" due to the lack of baths is a lie.

        The ban is not a ban, but they began to refuse washing at a later time. Church washing did not approve.
    2. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 16 November 2019 11: 36 New
      +2
      Quote: K-50
      And this is at a time when in Russia there was a weekly mandatory washing in a bathhouse with linen of clothes and clothes.

      That is why Russia has suffered less than Europe from the plague.
      1. Antares
        Antares 17 November 2019 14: 35 New
        -2
        Quote: tihonmarine
        That is why Russia has suffered less than Europe from the plague.

        Pskov 1352 does not agree with you!
        It is the plague in Pskov that echoes the myths that the cleanliness of the Russians protected them from rats with fleas and that diseases spread little in cold Russia. Firstly, this plague wore a pulmonary form, because the chronicles preserved the mention of hemoptysis and imminent death. And the pulmonary form only spreads better in the cold. Secondly, fleas infected with plague bacillus (as it was in London in the 17th century) already lived in foreign goods and they bit that dirty, that clean people.
        Smolensk, 1387-similar (but it is unclear whether the plague - mortality is higher than the plague)
        bubonic form of the plague - 1364 in the Lower Volga
        And this despite measures taken by the late Prince Simeon the Proud (quarantines, prohibitions, border closures)
        The only advantage of Russia over the West is that earlier they began to jam the laundry while he was bathing there! In Russia (Rus), this began a little earlier than the West. And then thanks to the construction of dining churches.
        And there are studies that
        The authors of the work noted on the basis of the sample that the ancestor of all the strains that arose during the second global plague pandemic came from Russia, namely, near the city of Laishevo near Kazan.
  10. Narak-zempo
    Narak-zempo 15 November 2019 12: 52 New
    +2
    Maybe it's time to diversify the PR channels on VO?
    And then Day-TV is sick of it.
  11. Amateur
    Amateur 15 November 2019 12: 54 New
    +3
    After the French king Louis IX (XIII century) was drenched with shit from the window, the inhabitants of Paris were allowed to remove household waste through the window, only shouting three times before, “Beware!”

    1. Good_Anonymous
      Good_Anonymous 16 November 2019 11: 26 New
      -3
      This cabin hangs over the moat.
    2. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 16 November 2019 11: 40 New
      0
      Quote: Amateur
      Parisians were allowed to remove household waste through the window, only shouting three times before: “Watch out!”

      Now you also need to introduce the same rule to shout “palundra” and then throw out stools, flower pots, empty bottles from the windows.
  12. Simfy
    Simfy 15 November 2019 13: 37 New
    +3
    Just look in the internet for "terms", "hammam", "bath" ... who, what, when, and from whom I think I’ll figure it out yourself)
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 16 November 2019 12: 04 New
      +2
      Quote: Simfy
      Just look in the internet for "terms", "hammam", "bath"

      The internet will write such that again the "terms" came up with the ancient Ukrainians. And we had a bathhouse at home, which my great-grandfather built from a thick, half-meter cedar. We climbed onto the “shelves” with the whole family for the first steam, about ten people, and both brothers, nephews and uncles, so this is only the first run, and six more for the second, well, and the women, as expected, went after the men (in the steam room and the boy, already a man).
  13. Jerk
    Jerk 15 November 2019 14: 25 New
    +2
    Well, you know ... They dragged flea traps there - and without exception ... Yes, and hats with huge brim had strict functionality. On the head at any time a night pot from the window can pour. They incidentally and shot "gallantly" wink removing behind - so that it stinks of them less. In the northern city, a garbage poured in the cold will lead to breaking your feet on your own porch, in the people
  14. Flatter
    Flatter 15 November 2019 16: 03 New
    +5
    All in one world oiled
    City sewage and sewage
    "In the newspaper" Russian Chronicle ", published by a prominent city bourgeois: N. P. Shchepkin, in 1871, such a characteristic of the sanitary condition of the central part of the city, called the City part, was placed." From whatever side you go to it, a terrible stench meets you We’re on the doorstep. We’re on the smell. Here is Red Square and it’s the only monument to the liberators of Russia in Moscow in 1612. Around it is a real infection from the stinking streams running around the sides. Near the monument booth, in the manner of Parisian urinals, it’s disgusting to approach them. Ruch they flow down the mountain near the fruit shops. ”In the depths of the city“ in the mud and stink of city pubs ... And ... nearby ... latrines ... ”From the courtyards“ often whole streams of smelly sewage flow straight to the streets. "
    https://history-club.livejournal.com/365884.html
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 16 November 2019 12: 09 New
      +1
      Quote: Flatter
      In the depths of the city "in the mud and stink of city taverns ... And ... nearby ... latrines ...

      Well, it was, and where to go to the people, swallowing beer, and then nearby. And remember the free toilets at the train stations in 80, years earlier. It smelled good, but it’s free, and you won’t stay too long.
  15. Brigadier
    Brigadier 15 November 2019 17: 49 New
    0
    Medieval European zas-ran-ts!
    As the French queen once said there: "I recognize Versailles by smell." lol
  16. 16112014nk
    16112014nk 15 November 2019 18: 19 New
    0
    According to legend, Louis XIV washed twice in his life - at baptism and before the wedding.
    1. Antares
      Antares 15 November 2019 23: 51 New
      +2
      Quote: 16112014nk
      According to legend, Louis XIV washed twice in his life - at baptism and before the wedding.

      this fake is not attributed to the King of the Sun!
      The man "State is me" swam very often. Although he loved perfumes and women.
      1. tihonmarine
        tihonmarine 16 November 2019 12: 11 New
        +1
        Quote: Antares
        Although he loved perfumes and women.

        Well, who doesn’t like the latter?
        1. Antares
          Antares 17 November 2019 15: 26 New
          +1
          Quote: tihonmarine
          Well, who doesn’t like the latter?

          there are such people)
          This is by the way not gay. (Gays also love women but in their own way)
          1. tihonmarine
            tihonmarine 17 November 2019 18: 00 New
            0
            Quote: Antares
            This is by the way not gay.

            Yes, misogynists. I feel sorry for them. Everything must be as God created.
            1. Earth
              Earth 27 November 2019 23: 49 New
              +1
              Quote: tihonmarine
              Yes, misogynists. I feel sorry for them. Everything must be as God created.

              evolution does not "propagate" those who do not like women.
  17. Muhammad
    Muhammad 15 November 2019 18: 45 New
    0
    Saracens found crusaders by smell
  18. nikvic46
    nikvic46 16 November 2019 08: 53 New
    +1
    Here we are talking mainly about cities. We, in Russia, had a lot of room with this matter. Cleanliness is akin to neatness. And these qualities were very revered in our country. Even torn clothes, if they were clean and neatly patched, were considered a model of neatness. Here they write about Russian baths. But the desire to be clean forced people to wash in tubs, and even in stoves, and in the summer on the river. We had a very small urban population. But even in my memory, my father put patches on our felt boots every fall . And once a week we went to the bathhouse.
  19. Alexander Sosnitsky
    Alexander Sosnitsky 17 November 2019 21: 43 New
    +1
    In Stuttgart, on the central square, there is an ancient monument to the Russian Tsar and his relatives, who gave a lot of money to their daughter to equip this square and the hills around it. Prior to this, there was a lot of dirt and soldiers marching in poverty of an illiterate and unwashed brother-in-law. Then the daughter again asked her dad for money for the construction of Orthodox churches around. There are now a lot of cultural buildings of Orthodox property and Swabians are gratefully and sacredly honored. Half a century ago, all Western Europeans related to the Slavs were poor, dirty, and small. Bulgaria, on the contrary, was from sea to sea and the population was four times larger than France, for example. Then the bros asked ... everything between themselves and came under the opinion of supposedly stupid and lazy motionless subhuman. The latter were just waiting for this and quickly went to Berlin at 45m to break away from the soul for a change, it became boring. Then they added east Germany for their thanks, and even earlier Alaska and many other lands. But how else, if the natural wealth underfoot is unmeasured, why fuss? Stuck a stick in the ground and it produces.