The second Arctic patrol ship launched in Canada

The second Arctic patrol ship launched in Canada

In Canada, the second in a series patrol ship of the Arctic zone such as Harry DeWolf was launched. As the portal transmits navaltoday.com, the ceremony was held at the Irving Shipbuilding shipyard in Halifax.


The patrol ship launched is the first serial ship after the lead ship of the Arctic zone HMCS Harry DeWolf, launched last September. The ship was named HMCS Margaret Brooke, after its completion and passing the tests, it should become part of the Royal Navy of Canada in 2020 year. Two more ships of this project are at various stages of slipway construction.

The construction contract for the Canadian Navy of five (according to other sources - six) patrol ships was signed at the beginning of the 2015 year. Coastal ships AOPS (Arctic Offshore Patrol Ship) are designed to expand the capabilities of the Royal Navy to perform tasks in the Canadian Arctic archipelago. Their main tasks are monitoring and conducting intelligence, protecting the sovereignty of the country, as well as monitoring the situation in the exclusive economic zone of the state. According to the manufacturer, the ships are able to perform tasks in any arctic latitudes. They can be used in the Arctic as search and rescue ships.

Arctic zone patrol ships (AOPS) have a displacement of 6440 m, their length is 103 m, and their width is 19 m. Equipped with diesel-electric power plants. Speed ​​to 17 knots. Range at medium speed in 14 knots - 6800 nautical miles. A ship can cross ice one meter thick at a speed of three knots. The autonomy of an individual ship in Arctic waters is four months. Crew - 65 people.

The ship is armed with an automatic gun BAE MK38 caliber 25 mm and two machine guns M2 Browning. Space is provided for the placement of the CH-148 helicopter and two boats. According to the statement of the command of the Canadian Navy, these ships are not intended for military operations, their main task is to perform police and border functions.
Photos used:
Irving shipbuilding
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  1. The leader of the Redskins 14 November 2019 16: 40 New
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    Beautiful ship. Indeed, a beautiful ship. The creators are a plus.
    1. Sergey39 14 November 2019 16: 44 New
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      Beautiful, but our "Ivan Papanin" is better!
      1. Lexus 14 November 2019 16: 53 New
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        You see, the negligent "Canadians" stuck somewhere are still talking. And it would be nice for our team to defeat them in hockey at the North Pole.
        1. Dikson 15 November 2019 13: 15 New
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          Actually, according to tradition, they play soccer on ice ..))
      2. Alexander Petrov1 14 November 2019 17: 00 New
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        And he no longer has 1,7 m ice penetration and missiles ...
        1. Alexander Petrov1 14 November 2019 18: 22 New
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          Our Papanin is a real military patrol icebreaker with missiles, and he is a pretty parody ... laughing
          1. Eskobar 15 November 2019 15: 44 New
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            In a recent article about proPapanin, there was no talk of any rockets.
            1. Alexander Petrov1 16 November 2019 04: 04 New
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              Yes, all the TV channels and the Internet are already talking about how he was let down, why don’t you read the sites at all and don’t watch the State Star and, most importantly, the minuses, what is the truth to me?
        2. SovAr238A 14 November 2019 18: 29 New
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          Quote: Alexander Petrov1
          And he no longer has 1,7 m ice penetration and missiles ..


          What an interesting term - "ice penetration" ...
          And why do you compare the Canadian running “ice penetration” with our shunting?
          And why the official 1,5m - in your words turned into 1.7m?

          Did you know that our navigable ice penetration, like that of the Canadians, does not exceed 1m.
          So no one wins anything in this respect - equal positions.

          And tell me which missiles and where they will be based on the Papanin?
          Or will you, like a parrot, repeat mantras about container Gauges?
          Which doesn’t really exist?

          But the fact that the Canadian has twice as much autonomy - 120 days against our 60 - this is not good ...
          1. Alexander Petrov1 14 November 2019 18: 47 New
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            Repeat the "mantra" for whom the Minister of Defense? Listen to this, you are a parrot bought by Western intelligence agencies, but you have to be sent to the FSB, I’ll do it on a campaign ...
            1. SovAr238A 14 November 2019 18: 57 New
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              Quote: Alexander Petrov1
              Repeat the "mantra" for whom the Minister of Defense? Listen to this, you are a parrot bought by Western intelligence agencies, but you have to be sent to the FSB, I’ll do it on a campaign ...


              And the fact of the presence of container Caliber give?
              it is a fact - and not the idle talk of our MO ...

              He will send me to the FSB - go to the wineglass ... There are all your sending friends ...

              PS Are these people really writing to the FSB? Or are they calling? And How?
              They offended me on the Topvar forum - urgently punish the offender otherwise I won’t fall asleep ...
              Funny .. and ridiculous.
              1. Alexander Petrov1 14 November 2019 19: 00 New
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                Yes, it's just you mishandled Cossack and do not know, but type in the search engine you are my genius.
                1. SovAr238A 14 November 2019 19: 02 New
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                  Quote: Alexander Petrov1
                  Yes, it's just you mishandled Cossack and do not know, but type in the search engine you are my genius.

                  I read hundreds and thousands of articles. and on a multitude of resources.
                  In that chmsle and on 5-8 pages of search, and even I reach 12.
                  And I can not only listen to bravura propaganda songs, but also find real discussions of real subjects ...
                  Total weapons on this ship will be: Cannon, helicopter and 2 boats. All.
                  1. Alexander Petrov1 14 November 2019 19: 06 New
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                    Keep your well-read - https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4191985
                  2. Alexander Petrov1 14 November 2019 19: 10 New
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                    Just came to the site today, the news again will argue with the facts https://news.rambler.ru/army/43162093-dlya-vmf-rossii-sozdayutsya-vooruzhennye-ledokoly/
                    1. SovAr238A 14 November 2019 19: 18 New
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                      Quote: Alexander Petrov1
                      Just came to the site today, the news again will argue with the facts https://news.rambler.ru/army/43162093-dlya-vmf-rossii-sozdayutsya-vooruzhennye-ledokoly/


                      It’s better to read here - more trusted sources than tass and rambler ...
                      https://militaryarms.ru/voennaya-texnika/voennye-korabli/proekt-23550/

                      Quotes from the article:
                      In one version of the project, a small platform with a missile launcher was provided at the stern of the ship. - this is where the caliber rocket myth came from - but alas, the project that went into metal is not the version of the project with rockets.

                      The high-speed mode of the ships will be up to 18 knots, with a range of up to six thousand miles, and autonomy is expected up to two months. The structural features of the hull will allow them to cope with the thickness of the ice up to one and a half meters, while in a state of constant movement the thickness of the overcome ice cannot be higher than one meter. - I think that it is clearly written ...

                      1. Alexander Petrov1 14 November 2019 19: 22 New
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                        Will the Zvezda and Moscow TV channel suit you? Read there - the question is settled.
                      2. SovAr238A 14 November 2019 19: 23 New
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                        Quote: Alexander Petrov1
                        Will the Zvezda and Moscow TV channel suit you? Read there - the question is settled.


                        There is no greater lie than on the Star ...
                        Especially about weapons ...
                      3. Alexander Petrov1 14 November 2019 19: 30 New
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                        You are definitely a mishandled Cossack, go to Western or Ukrainian sites and water there for likes and, accordingly, the loot of our Russian armed forces.
                      4. SovAr238A 14 November 2019 19: 35 New
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                        Quote: Alexander Petrov1
                        You are definitely a mishandled Cossack, go to Western or Ukrainian sites and water there for likes and, accordingly, the loot of our Russian armed forces.


                        And you are just a stupid person ...

                        For example, I see no reason to be proud of the absolutely average result.
                        And I see no reason to look from the side at bonnet-bearers like you ..

                        you are very similar to sparrows who need to fly to the stable, so that you would not be left without hot ...
                      5. Alexander Petrov1 14 November 2019 19: 38 New
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                        And what is average, and what do you want, how many years have you lived under the USSR?
                      6. Alexander Petrov1 14 November 2019 20: 11 New
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                        I also want us to build ships for 3 years at 10 thousand tons with a small egg (440 billion gold and foreign currency fund and 125 billion generation fund) in Russia, 665 billion and this does not depend on us, but on the government and if we allocated more money we would build It’s fast, like in China, and not 2 icebreaker patrols in 6 years, but more so that you don’t agree and I, until there are new elections, nothing changes ...
                      7. SovAr238A 14 November 2019 21: 17 New
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                        Quote: Alexander Petrov1
                        And what is average, and what do you want, how many years have you lived under the USSR?


                        I am almost 50 ... 71 years old ...
                      8. Alexander Petrov1 14 November 2019 21: 24 New
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                        Well, I wrote to you that I would also like to be built as in the USSR or modern China, but unfortunately this is not possible because in the USSR the dollar exchange rate was 80 kopecks and now 65 rubles is the final price of the ship.
          2. Rzzz 14 November 2019 19: 33 New
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            It should be emphasized by the way that the speed is up to 18 knots. Precisely "before." Because he has enough dope to accelerate at such a speed, despite the extremely inefficient contours of the icebreaking corps. But if you press on the gas for a long time, then all the supplies of diesel fuel will fly into the pipe in a few days, no two-month autonomy.
          3. The comment was deleted.
          4. stalki 14 November 2019 22: 48 New
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            It’s better to read here - more trusted sources than tass and rambler ...
            https://militaryarms.ru/voennaya-texnika/voennye-korabli/proekt-23550/

            Quotes from the article:
            In one version of the project, a small platform with a missile launcher was provided at the stern of the ship. - this is where the caliber rocket myth came from - but alas, the project that went into metal is not the version of the project with rockets.

            The high-speed mode of the ships will be up to 18 knots, with a range of up to six thousand miles, and autonomy is expected up to two months. The structural features of the hull will allow them to cope with the thickness of the ice up to one and a half meters, while in a state of constant movement the thickness of the overcome ice cannot be higher than one meter. - I think that it is clearly written ...
            this is your source, and now compare with what is written on the official page of the Admiralty shipyards VKontakte, compare for objectivity
            ADMIRALTEY YARDS JSC LAUNCHED THE WATER PATTERN OF THE ICE CLASS "IVAN PAPANIN" ON WATER
            25.10.2019

            The Admiralty Shipyards JSC held a solemn ceremony of launching the ice class patrol ship Ivan Papanin for the Russian Navy. The ceremony was attended by the Head of the Technical Department of the Russian Navy, Rear Admiral Igor Zvarich, Chairman of the Board of Directors of JSC United Shipbuilding Corporation Georgy Poltavchenko and General Director of the company Alexander Buzakov.
            The launching of the patrol icebreaker "Ivan Papanin" by the director general of the enterprise called a worthy gift for the 315th anniversary of the shipyards.
            “This event marks for us a fundamentally new stage in the construction of ice-class vessels, since this ship has no analogues in the totality of its technical characteristics,” Alexander Buzakov emphasized. - It is symbolic that an ice-resistant self-propelled platform "North Pole" is being built nearby, on the same slipway - the namesake of the world's first Soviet polar research station, which drifted in the Arctic in 1937 under the leadership of Ivan Papanin. And there is no doubt that the new patrol ship will be another contribution of the shipyards to the creation of the Arctic grouping of the Russian Navy.
            “The new ship that we launch today at the Admiralty Shipyards is designed to perform tasks in the harsh conditions of the Arctic,” said Igor Zvarich, head of the Technical Department of the Russian Navy. “To do this, it has a heavy-duty housing, a powerful main power plant and modern weapons. I am sure that he will fully comply with his legendary name!
            “This is a unique and versatile ship: essentially military, but designed for peaceful work.” It combines the functions of a tugboat, patrol, icebreaker and a scientific vessel. It can solve an unlimited number of different tasks and, thanks to the incorporated design solutions, work in the Arctic region as efficiently as possible, ”said Georgy Poltavchenko, Chairman of the Board of Directors of USC JSC. - I am sure that this ship, like the Russian Arctic, has a great future!
            The ship of project 23550 is designed to protect Arctic water resources; escort and towage to the port of detained ships; escort and support of support vessels; in addition, it has the ability to hit sea, coastal and air targets. It can cross ice about 1,7 m thick.
            The main performance characteristics: displacement of about 9 thousand tons; the navigation area is unlimited, the economic speed is about 10 knots, the full speed is about 18 knots, the range of the economic course is about 10 thousand miles, autonomy is about 70 days. Arctic ship category Arc7. The ship will be armed with a portable anti-aircraft missile system and artillery mount. The possibility of permanent basing of a ship's helicopter is provided. The ship will have a radar station for lighting the air and surface situation and a hydrometeorological station. The construction contract was signed on April 25, 2016.
            Earlier, in 2017, the Admiralty Shipyards handed over to the Russian Navy the diesel-electric icebreaker of project 21180 Ilya Muromets with the functions of a scientific hydrographic vessel. The ship became part of the Arctic fleet.
  • Alexander Petrov1 16 November 2019 04: 06 New
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    Even if 1,5 meters is still the largest in the world for patrols.
  • Alien From 14 November 2019 16: 45 New
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    With the language, as they say, "removed"!
  • Thrall 14 November 2019 16: 46 New
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    To "Ivan Papanin" he is very far away
    1. SovAr238A 14 November 2019 18: 30 New
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      Quote: Thrall
      To "Ivan Papanin" he is very far away


      evidence will be?
      Or just the habit of throwing caps for no reason?
  • rich 14 November 2019 17: 16 New
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    I post several photos from Canadian sites




    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. stalki 14 November 2019 23: 05 New
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      but our handsome man.
  • Pavel57 14 November 2019 16: 48 New
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    But he has no calibers ...
  • knn54 14 November 2019 16: 54 New
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    Cannot be used to clear paths for other ships.
    And how a patrol ship (judging by the declared capabilities) is impressive.
  • Amateur 14 November 2019 16: 56 New
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    A ship can cross ice one meter thick at a speed of three knots

    "I do not believe!" (K.S. Stanislavsky) Nose - not "icebreaking"
    1. We_smart 14 November 2019 17: 13 New
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      And what do you think should be an icebreaking nose?
      1. Amateur 14 November 2019 17: 19 New
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        That's something like this. Under 45 degrees
        1. tlauicol 14 November 2019 18: 12 New
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          And he has the same. And the dad. Lenin is not in a load - look at the waterline and imagine it in normal draft
        2. SovAr238A 14 November 2019 18: 32 New
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          Quote: Amateur

          That's something like this. Under 45 degrees


          Have you written the truth now?
          Do you really think that ice-breakers "sharp noses cut ice"?
          1. Kurare 14 November 2019 19: 07 New
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            Quote: SovAr238A
            Do you really think that ice-breakers "sharp noses cut ice"?

            They don’t cut ice, they climb it and crush it with their mass. With a "blunt" nose, this is very difficult.
            1. SovAr238A 14 November 2019 19: 17 New
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              Quote: Kurare
              Quote: SovAr238A
              Do you really think that ice-breakers "sharp noses cut ice"?

              They don’t cut ice, they climb it and crush it with their mass. With a "blunt" nose, this is very difficult.

              He is not stupid, and not under 45 ...
              Well, you can’t call him sharp stem anyway ...
    2. Rzzz 14 November 2019 20: 15 New
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      It’s completely icebreaking, with skiing.
  • Jerk 14 November 2019 17: 01 New
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    What are they supposed to patrol there? There is no analog of the Northern Sea Route, and there will never be
    1. Sergey39 14 November 2019 17: 08 New
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      Northwest Passage. Which also claims the United States.
    2. Errr 14 November 2019 17: 09 New
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      “There” is the Northwest Passage.)
      1. figwam 14 November 2019 17: 21 New
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        We have a way, they have a passage.
        1. Errr 14 November 2019 17: 28 New
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          Yes, such a passage. More truly - The Northwest Passage.)))
      2. Jerk 14 November 2019 17: 27 New
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        What is being carried? Cargo from east to west of the USA, and the Panama Canal under repair? laughing
        1. Errr 14 November 2019 18: 08 New
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          The advantages of the Northwest Passage are obvious, namely: ship routes from Europe to East Asia can become 4000 km shorter (Shanghai-New York route). In addition, the presence of a passage is an attractive feature for the potential mining of mineral resources of the Canadian North, and this sea route can also be used to transport hydrocarbon resources in Alaska.
          According to M. Byers, the NWFP is deep enough and will be able to accept supertankers and container ships (bulk carriers), Panamax class (294 meters long, 32 meters wide, 12 meters draft and a displacement of more than 65 thousand tons) and even a higher class that are too big to pass through the Panama Canal, the shortest route from the Atlantic Ocean to the Pacific Ocean at present.
          In 1969, the Exxon SS Manhattan (SS Manhattan) with its accompanying Northwind icebreaker, the US Coast Guard, traveled along the Northwest Passage as an alternative to the construction of the Alaskan pipeline. A US tanker tested the viability of the waterway as an oil delivery route from the northern slope of Alaska to the east coast.
          If you are interested in the details, you can read this entire article at:
          https://goarctic.ru/work/severo-zapadnyy-prokhod/
          1. Jerk 15 November 2019 06: 35 New
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            ship routes from Europe to East Asia may become 4000 km shorter (route Shanghai - New York)
            WHO IS FROM EUROPE? From EUROPE it’s just shorter than the Northern Sea Route - by you. And the exact opposite!
            All that you said - transport from the east to the west of the USA - and only to Alaska - from the east to the West coast - is cheaper, because closer - through Panama !!!
  • Retvizan 8 14 November 2019 17: 04 New
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    Where is Canada and where is the Arctic?
    Where are these clowns going to patrol?
    Or are they waiting for the ice age?
  • Nycomed 14 November 2019 17: 05 New
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    Well what is it! The thickness of the ice is meter. Are they going to use them on the Great Lakes? "Papanin" cooler, definitely!
    1. SovAr238A 14 November 2019 18: 33 New
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      Quote: Nycomed
      Well what is it! The thickness of the ice is meter. Are they going to use them on the Great Lakes? "Papanin" cooler, definitely!

      Nonsense...
      Running "ice penetration" (as one bonnet-bearer wrote here - they have exactly the same - no more than 1 meter.
  • rocket757 14 November 2019 17: 20 New
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    Papanin, a military icebreaker. The patrol vessel is not correct to compare with him.
    They are satisfied with this option and okay.
    And so, the ship looks fine.
    1. Kurare 14 November 2019 17: 44 New
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      Quote: rocket757
      Papanin, a military icebreaker. The patrol vessel is not correct to compare with him.

      For lack of alternatives - have to compare!
      According to the statement of the command of the Canadian Navy, these ships are not intended for military operations, their main task is to perform police and border functions.

      And so, you are absolutely right. This is rather a FSB ship or Coast Guard.
      1. rocket757 14 November 2019 18: 43 New
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        Quote: Kurare
        This is rather a FSB ship or Coast Guard.

        A military icebreaker, there were no ships of this class before, an ice class patrol / border vessel, nothing unusual for Canada. For their territorial waters, the ship necessary .... are not in the south, no matter how.
    2. tlauicol 14 November 2019 18: 13 New
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      Quote: rocket757
      Papanin, a military icebreaker. The patrol vessel is not correct to compare with him.
      They are satisfied with this option and okay.
      And so, the ship looks fine.

      Papanin patrol ship
      1. rocket757 14 November 2019 18: 52 New
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        Quote: Tlauicol

        Papanin patrol ship

        There is such a thing, as they call it, they have confused it.
        A patrol ship, but with the functions of an icebreaker - rescuer - tugboat .... it’s scary to talk about the alleged weapons; Not Craiser, but very dangerous!
        By the way, what thickness of ice is available to him for a normal course? I did not find where it is written.
        1. tlauicol 14 November 2019 19: 01 New
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          Somewhere about a meter and a half wrote, emnip
          1. rocket757 14 November 2019 19: 13 New
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            One and a half meters, along the way, it’s a light icebreaker.
        2. SovAr238A 14 November 2019 19: 32 New
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          Quote: rocket757

          By the way, what thickness of ice is available to him for a normal course? I did not find where it is written.

          on the go - no more than 1 meter
          1. rocket757 15 November 2019 08: 00 New
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            Quote: SovAr238A
            on the go - no more than 1 meter

            It looks like the media are "having fun" to the fullest ... entertainment for the layman.
        3. Rzzz 14 November 2019 20: 19 New
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          Quote: rocket757
          with the functions of an icebreaker - lifeguard - tugboat

          There is no crinoline in the stern; it is extremely uncomfortable to tow it. When in ice, when towed, it’s under the stern or back to back, or on a minimally short cable.
          1. rocket757 15 November 2019 07: 54 New
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            Quote: rzzz
            There is no crinoline in the stern; it is extremely uncomfortable to tow it. When in ice, when towed, it’s under the stern or back to back, or on a minimally short cable.

            In general, to show, to tell, to promise more than the World Cup is / is possible .... it is not something unusual. Advertising, marketing however.
            For a non-specialist, a picture is drawn "fantastic."
            The specialist understands everything correctly.
        4. Kettle 15 November 2019 02: 10 New
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          Neither DeWolf nor Papanin are icebreakers.
          As sometimes happens recently, the data is slightly embellished by officials and the media; such ... philistine, populist approach instead of clear definitions. Although this, in principle, is a trifle ... With hypersound, there, in general, many were confused to cereal in their heads.
          They are ice class patrol vessels. And for the operation of the icebreaker - the movement on continuous multi-year ice and the piloting of ships in ice - are not intended.

          I already wrote:
          Never a sailor, but if you look at our classification of ice classes, then there are clear definitions for each of them.
          Ice1 ... Ice3 - independent swimming in the shallow rarefied ice of the non-Arctic seas (as I understand it, individual small ice floes).
          Arc4 ... Arc6 - in rarer Arctic ice (probably large, but still separate ice floes).
          Arc7 (just “Papanin”, in the manufacturer’s booklets, “Pella”, even Arc6 is indicated) ... Arc9 - in close-knit ice (ice fields drifting, but already clinging to each other) and overcoming ice jumpers by raids.
          And all this is independent swimming, i.e. "for private purposes".
          And then icebreakers come
          Icebreaker6 ... Icebreaker9 - they are already for solid ice and for "public" icebreaking work - carrying out other vessels in any ice - from rarefied to solid.

          In the West, a different classification, with slightly different criteria.
          DeWolf - Polar class 5 vessel. Judging by the definitions and the fact that they have 7 classes, and the coolest one is the first, the Papanin seems to be really better in this same icebreaking sense.
          1. Avior 15 November 2019 05: 01 New
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            Same.
            They simply have a completely different classification and such subtleties as the ability to move in shallow ice during icebreaking are simply not specified. And it does not stipulate separately independent sailing and icebreakers for wiring.

            . PC5 - Year-round operation in annual ice of moderate thickness with inclusions of perennial ice.

            And the 4th class they have is already ice of considerable thickness
            . PC4 - Year-round operation in annual ice of significant thickness with inclusions of perennial ice.
          2. rocket757 15 November 2019 07: 57 New
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            Quote: Kettle
            Neither DeWolf nor Papanin are icebreakers.

            PLUS, everything is clear.
            Advertising, a presentation for the layman wrote ... well done, too, specialists, the customer reads a completely "different literature" .....
  • Thrifty 14 November 2019 17: 33 New
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    Yes, just what will they do if they get into ice hummocks? Or, they will go on a flight, and immediately run into the ice a meter thick under three — will our icebreaker be called?
    1. Dikson 15 November 2019 06: 47 New
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      And there, by the way, there are enough of our icebreakers - they have carried scientists on expeditions in the American-Canadian Arctic on an expedition .. For many years, by the way .. Because to compare our Papanin and Muromets, this Canadian with the same Admiral Makarov or Dranitsyn "just silly .. I generally keep quiet about nuclear submarines ..
  • IS-80_RVGK2 14 November 2019 17: 53 New
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    In principle, our Palpatine will drown all this flotilla alone. Just stupidly firing from an automatic 76 mm gun. laughing
    1. SovAr238A 14 November 2019 18: 34 New
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      Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
      In principle, our Palpatine will drown all this flotilla alone. Just stupidly firing from an automatic 76 mm gun. laughing


      And what about the anti-ship missile launched from a distance of 50 km from the helicopter? A hat or a cap?
  • Dikson 15 November 2019 06: 41 New
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    The boat is not bad Canadian .. But the anchor cloaks are a bit low .. - will freeze for one or two .. About weapons - Will there be air defense on it in the form of portable air defense systems or something? It is unclear .. I read the branch - Here Papanin praised our ..
    Actually - an under-tow and an under-ice .. - he does not have a wiring system on his mustache, judging by the photos and sketches .. An ice class coast guard patrol ship .. About Container Gauges - maybe at the design stage and laid such a modular idea .. As well as module for diving and rescue operations .. There is a series similar to ours .. But the placement of such a module automatically deprives the ship of a towing function .. - nothing should be aft there according to the rules .. A helicopter is needed not just for such ships .. Not enough that the ice reconnaissance, also with anti-submarine and anti-ship weapons .. Well then, a serious defender of the Arctic will be .. But it doesn’t hurt to put things in order on tin corvettes and plastic frigates ... - remembers them there like ice on paper ..