Military Review

What society did Stalin create

428
What society did Stalin create

Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin kisses the “Sword of Stalingrad” at the awarding ceremony in the conference hall of the Soviet embassy during the Tehran Conference. Before I.V. Stalin is the Prime Minister of Great Britain Winston Churchill. To the right of Stalin is People's Commissar for Foreign Affairs of the USSR V.M. Molotov.


The red emperor. Stalin gave rise to the formation of a new civilization and society. In the USSR-Russia, a society of knowledge, service, and creation was created. It was a civilization of the future.

Stalin - the leader-priest, creating a new society and culture


When you watch films of the Stalin era, you pay attention to the fact that the heroes of that time are very different from the current ones. This is a completely different level. Heroes of the Soviet era are filled with bright energy, these are creators, creators, teachers, engineers, scientists, discoverers, warriors. They do not have a disease of the era of consumption, the “golden calf”. In the first place, people of that great era have completely different values. First of all, serving the Soviet society, the Motherland, the accumulation of comprehensive knowledge and creation. This is a society of knowledge, service and creation. Our modern society is a copy of the Western society (which has become global) of consumption and self-destruction.

Thus, despite the intensive construction of new churches, mosques and other religious buildings, modern Russia is very much inferior in morality and spirit to the Stalinist Union. It is enough to recall your experience in communicating with front-line soldiers or rear workers, people who lived at that amazing time, when the children of peasants became marshals, designers and aces pilots. These are simple, bright and strong people. I recall Lermontov’s words: “Yes, there were people in our time, Not that the current tribe: Heroes - not you!”

How did Stalin manage to create such a society?


By the time the Stalinist course began, Russian (Soviet) society was very sick, disfigured. In fact, these were the remains of the destroyed "old Russia" of the 1913 model of the year. These debris and debris did not interact well or barely with each other. Moreover, they had directly opposite interests. In particular, the smoldering war between the city and the village, which was ready to become a full-scale second peasant war and finish off Russia. There were also many conflicts within the city and the village. So, there were contradictions between the new, red bureaucracy, the NEPman (the new bourgeoisie) and the bulk of the semi-impoverished population; the contradictions between the fists and the peasant poor; between the surviving layer of "former" - qualified specialists, the intelligentsia and the masses of the semi-literate population, etc.

But even this was not the worst. The catastrophe of the 1917 of the year and the subsequent turmoil destroyed morality, work ethics, the church, which, even as a screen, hid the shortcomings of society, was almost bold (a significant part of the society, even under the Romanovs, turned away from the church, which lost the fiery spirit of truth). Society has become accustomed to death, violence, expropriations, and has become unaccustomed to creative work. Production activity was now seen as hard labor, excessive labor service. Productive daily labor, observance of social moral standards, and internal culture were destroyed. For most of the population, the internal regulators of public life have disappeared. The man was now ready for anything, there were no internal prohibitions. It is enough to recall the experiments of part of the Soviet “creative” intelligentsia in the 1920-s with “free love” (even before the sexual revolution in the West in the 1960-s). Therefore, society, after the civilizational catastrophe of 1917 of the year, could not be returned to work and creation without violence. This is the phenomenon of Stalin's “purges” and repressions, which were generally purifying and led to the creation of a stronger and healthier society.

Materialization of the new reality meant not only the creation of a material foundation (factories, factories, collective farms, schools, laboratories, institutes, etc.), but the creation of a new society. Stalin understood that it was impossible to create a new society without giving him a common cause. This common cause was the reorganization of the country's life in a constructive way. Industrialization, collectivization, the scientific and technological revolution, the creation of advanced armed forces. The common cause then could be done on the basis of fear, interest and faith in a brighter future.

Stalin had no illusions about the Soviet people of the 20s model. This society was poisoned by revolution, civil war and terror. The people, infinitely far from the ideals of a brighter future (the new “golden age”, civilization and the society of the future), could be encouraged to superhuman efforts only by two methods - by forcing and creating an attractive image of the future. Coercion became the lever that set the system in motion, gave an initial impetus and provided first results. Coercion was carried out by various methods: harsh repressive collectivization, super-harsh punishment for any wrongdoing, forced labor of prisoners, hard work for a small fee (for example, on collective farms).

These were very tough methods. But without them, the peoples of Russian (Soviet) civilization were doomed to historical defeat and disappearance from the planet. Without them, the USSR would not have carried out collectivization and industrialization, had not created a powerful military-industrial complex and advanced armed forces, could not have survived in World War II, and became a victim of Germany, Japan, the USA and England. Already in the mid-30s, when industry rose, a powerful system of material interest appeared. There was money for bonuses, products, goods and services for which they could be spent. The best workers, employees, tankmen, pilots, etc., were encouraged.

Thus, coercion in the Stalinist system is not the result of the bloodthirstiness of the Soviet leader and his entourage, or the inherent property of communism, as Western liberals try to explain to us, but a vital necessity. Coercion and cruel methods came from the catastrophe of the 1917 year and the hopeless situation of the USSR-Russia in 1920 - the beginning of the 1930-s. Stalin was not a villain, an executioner. As soon as it became possible to reward people for their hard work and achievements, Stalin immediately began to use the “carrot”. And the further, the more. So, from 1947 of the year, they began to regularly reduce prices for goods.

At the same time, it is necessary to forget the lie of the liberals that under Stalin there was a general equalization (it was introduced by Khrushchev) that all were equally poor. Stalinist society was effective and diverse. So under Stalin purposefully created the imperial, national elite. It included not “responsible businessmen”, billionaires selling their homeland, not professional lyceum actors, pop-party, as in modern Russia, but designers, engineers, scientists, professors, doctors, teachers, pilots, officers, generals, skilled workers (working aristocracy). They received large salaries, better housing, access to the additional benefits of life. Under Stalin, professors lived better than union ministers. The real forges of the Soviet elite were Suvorov and Nakhimov schools.

Under Khrushchev, all this will be destroyed. The basic principle of socialism “to everyone according to their work” will be violated, equalization will be organized when the engineer will also receive or even less than the average worker. No matter how much you work, you won’t get more than your bet. Salary growth was frozen, but production standards began to rise. Under the “damned” Stalin, he earned as much as he earned (even a million). The principle was clearly adhered to: the higher the qualification, the more income. Therefore, people had an incentive to learn and work better. And production rates rose depending on the introduction of new capacities, technologies and equipment in production. Under Khrushchev, popular Stalinist socialism was destroyed, the imperial elite began to be squeezed by party officials, whose degeneration led to the 1985 — 1991 catastrophe.

The Stalin era was a time of scientific and technological revolution, a breakthrough into the future. This is the "golden age" of inventors and developers of complex technologies. Under Stalin, we create and develop the nuclear industry, our own, original computers, electronics, aircraft manufacturing and rocket science. Russia has become a superpower, a civilization of the future. All this is the result of the social engineering of the red emperor-priest.

Civilization of the future


Stalin used not only coercion and reward, but also a new culture to create the society of the future. Films, songs, books, magazines (only “Technique - Youth” - the whole world!), Houses of culture and creativity. And no matter what they say "about the bloody executioner", and Stalin managed to create a magical civilization of the future. To achieve unprecedented unity of the people, their true faith, turned into the fury of battle and selfless work. Russian (Soviet) civilization was able to overthrow another magical civilization - the Third Reich, which was powered by the energy of the "black sun", the "dark side of power."

It is clear that faith in a brighter future was shared by the entire Soviet people. The old generations, psychologically disfigured by the First World War, the revolution and the turmoil, for the most part did not believe in anything, were tired, only tried to survive, survive, and attach themselves well. Belief in the bright tomorrow was only among the Communists (and even then not all, there were opportunists), young generations.

Stalin understood that the new reality would triumph only when it became the only one for the vast majority of the population. When the bulk of the people will believe in this future. And he will bring it closer, strive for it. To give all the strength for the sake of a dream, and if life is required. There was no other way to create a new civilization. Therefore, the main thing was not coercion or material interest, but the education of people. The older generations were largely lost. The main hopes were for youth.

The fame of Stalin as the best friend of the children was true. Children, youth have become the real elite of the Soviet Union. A happy country of childhood is the absolute truth about the youth policy of the Stalinist government. They gave all the best to children and youth. A whole system was created throughout the Red Empire to educate new generations: pioneer camps, health resorts, houses of creativity and culture, art and music schools, planetariums and stadiums. All so that children, schoolchildren and students can show and develop their abilities, explore the world, engage in science, culture, art, prepare for work and defense. Houses with white columns were rightly called the palaces of pioneers and schoolchildren, as the children themselves called them. Huge money went to science, upbringing, education, physical and intellectual development. The cult of youth, education, strength and purity has been created.

The effect was amazing. Generations of the 20s were devotedly devoted to their socialist Fatherland. For the most part, the first fully literate and educated generations sincerely loved Stalin and the USSR. Soviet power enabled tens of millions of young men and women to realize their creative, human potential. These were the people of the highest standard. It is not surprising that the Great Patriotic War gave many thousands of examples when border guards, tankmen, pilots, sailors, artillerymen and infantry fought to the last, even if they were doomed and had no chance of victory. They believed in a common victory! When these heroes were told, the younger generations taught them examples. The current heroes are elite prostitutes and bandits.

In the same way, Soviet people showed miracles in work. Thanks to the heroism and work of the Soviet people, the country survived and won up in a terrible war, was able to recover in the shortest possible time and again rushed forward to the future. The merit of Stalin is that he was able to give such faith and dedication to society. The Soviet leader gave the new Russian civilization an imperial style everywhere - in cinema, architecture, music, painting and technology (T-34). It’s just breathtaking when you dream about what heights we could achieve thanks to this, if not for the Great Patriotic War 1941 —1945. (a significant part of the new Stalinist generations were killed in it) and not Khrushchev's “perestroika”.

That is why that great era in modern Russia caused the emergence of popular Stalinism. Too sharply great pictures of the past contrast with pictures of the wretched present of the Russian Federation. The experience of the Stalinist empire is the basis for the future revival of great Russia.

Author:
Articles from this series:
Red Emperor and the "Soviet miracle"

What is the phenomenon of Stalin
How Stalin saved Russia
Why were needed Stalinist repression
Stalin as the creator of a new reality
Raise Russia from its knees. Secrets of the Stalinist economy
"After my death, a lot of garbage will be put on my grave, but the wind of history will mercilessly dispel it."
428 comments
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  1. Far B
    Far B 13 November 2019 05: 46
    -15
    What an amazingly prolific author A. Samsonov! If it was even less blown away by the "civilization of the USSR / Rus and the enemies of their Anglo-Saxons" - there would be no price for it. And then somehow too much pathos turns out. In any article, to any topic, it tries to keep an eye on it, even if it does not want to fall back on it. And from this not bad, in general, topics lose a lot. IMHO.
    1. Pessimist22
      Pessimist22 13 November 2019 06: 08
      -12
      Yeah, it turns out we live in the Russian civilization of the future, and in the Japanese civilization of the past smile
      1. Aviator_
        Aviator_ 13 November 2019 08: 12
        +9
        About Japanese civilization. In the director Tarkovsky's work, the Japanese civilization of the 60s was an example of the civilization of the future (shots in Solaris with a stream of cars on the highway). But I visited Japan in '12 and got the impression that I was in the USSR during the 1980s. As is now known, after this peak in the USSR, stagnation and destruction began.
        1. vladimirZ
          vladimirZ 13 November 2019 12: 20
          +31
          Good and correct article by A. Samsonov. Age I.V. Stalin - the heyday of the USSR - a new socialist Russia with a liberated people from the oppression of capitalism and tsarism.
          And for such a historically short period - 10-15 years, the people under the leadership of the Communist Party, headed by I.V. Stalin and his comrades-in-arms built a powerful industrial power that withstood the blow of fascist Europe led by Germany. After the war - in 5-8 years, everything destroyed by enemies was restored; created a nuclear shield that still works and protects us; in 15 years they were the first to go into space; reached a certain, corresponding to that time, material well-being of people.
          The achievements of Stalin's era are especially vividly manifested now, when, after the 30 - year collapse of the USSR, the country and people are increasingly falling into poverty and bondage of the capitalist "paradise" - systemic and endless wars and crises, collapse and destruction, ever greater reduction of social guarantees and political rights of workers.
          1. Alexander Suvorov
            Alexander Suvorov 13 November 2019 14: 28
            +27
            There was time and there were cellars
            There was a time and prices were reduced
            And the channels flowed right
            And in the end, where it was necessary
            (V. Vysotsky)

            Joseph Stalin - the only leader in the country, in which prices actually fell, and this was systematic. The USSR was the first of all countries to cancel food cards, and this despite the fact that since the Soviet Union suffered, no one was injured, including even Germany.
            The pace of the country's recovery was enormous. And this despite the fact that we restored not only ourselves, but the entire Warsaw block. Who of contemporaries or from past leaders is capable of such a thing ?! That's NOBODY!
            1. Leonid Anatolevich
              Leonid Anatolevich 13 November 2019 16: 56
              -18
              Germany, destroyed by bombing in 1945, had the second gold reserve in the world by the mid-1950s - this is the pace of economic recovery without a Leader.
              1. Alexander Suvorov
                Alexander Suvorov 13 November 2019 17: 06
                +13
                Leonid Anatolyevich (Leonid Anatolyevich)
                Germany, destroyed by bombing in 1945, had the second gold reserve in the world by the mid-1950s - this is the pace of economic recovery without a Leader.

                Question 1. What kind of Germany? There were two of them at that time and one of them, which was Eastern, was restored not without the help of the USSR.
                Question 2. If you mean Germany, then WHERE is their gold reserve? Do not know? The Germans have still not seen him in the eye and will not see it most likely.

                - Dad, did you take money in a kamode? Mom will ask you now.
                - Ooo, Nadyukha came to her senses, and the money was taken away by the bough. (from the movie "Love and Doves")

                This is what I mean, this is me to the German gold, which the Americans have and which have long been bye bye.
                Question 3. Have you heard anything about the Marshall plan?

                Without a Leader ... yeah, how so!
                1. Leonid Anatolevich
                  Leonid Anatolevich 19 November 2019 10: 56
                  -3
                  Why all the hints?
                2. Leonid Anatolevich
                  Leonid Anatolevich 19 November 2019 13: 03
                  -4
                  Marshall's plan was rejected by the Russians
              2. Looking for
                Looking for 13 November 2019 17: 15
                -4
                still-robbed all of Europe
              3. RUSS
                RUSS 13 November 2019 20: 43
                -10
                Quote: Leonid Anatolyevich
                Germany, destroyed by bombing in 1945, had the second gold reserve in the world by the mid-1950s - this is the pace of economic recovery without a Leader.

                Not only Germany recovered, but all countries, both losers and winners of the war, and all without "Stalin"
                1. Nikolai Korovin
                  Nikolai Korovin 17 November 2019 22: 54
                  +3
                  Yes, according to the Marshall plan. All those who recovered paid Wall Street the full amount. No wonder the preference contains the term "American aid." Who played - knows. I wasn't particularly fond of it, sometimes. But aware of this circumstance. Your partner plays for you, puts you in a bullet and describes you with whists. Here they do not want to give 2% of GDP for American fart - no, darlings! Played - chase the coin! Everything drags on since the recovery.
                  1. Leonid Anatolevich
                    Leonid Anatolevich 19 November 2019 13: 07
                    -2
                    It remains to cite proofs of Wall Street payouts.
                    In addition, Wall Street took on the cost of helping Land Liz. In the war initiated by the USSR
                2. Leonid Anatolevich
                  Leonid Anatolevich 19 November 2019 11: 01
                  -2
                  I have half of my friends grew up in wooden apartment blocks
            2. frog
              frog 13 November 2019 18: 31
              -3
              Certainly. They also built a BBK under him and abandoned it. And then they built it again, but sane. And with him, a fierce number of people flew away just "for statistics." And much more cool stuff. In the end, he left behind the gravediggers of the country he created. Nobody says that he is a demon. But it is too much to idealize a person with all the jambs. How many idols can you create for yourself?
          2. karabass
            karabass 13 November 2019 16: 41
            -10
            Well, men, I read your comments and my soul rejoices - as long as there are people like you, everything will be good! You would be to the wheelbarrows, but to logging, we would not be the only Belomor - the Channel was built and THREE !!!
            1. Xnumx vis
              Xnumx vis 14 November 2019 22: 43
              0
              Yanka Kupala - Laureate of the Stalin Prize of the first degree (1941) .---: ABOUT STALIN WISE I SONG SONG
              About Stalin wise I lay down a song,
              And the song is from the heart, and the song is such
              That flies everywhere and rings, not smolkaya,
              And there is no end to her, and no edge to her ...
              About Stalin wise I lay down a song.
              I live freely with Stalin in the world:
              As for the clear sun, it warms and shines,
              Paves the way to a great victory,
              So that it was more joyful for both adults and children ...
              I live freely with Stalin in the world.
              To a song, his name lives among the people, -
              In the vast fields and in every plant;
              He comes to collective farm huts as a guest,
              He is with us everywhere - in a round dance ..,
              As for the song, his name lives on among the people.
              Everyone sees his falcon eyes
              And on bright days and on rainy nights.
              He wiped away our tears, he strengthened happiness.
              He prophesies a new share of the untalented ...
              Everyone sees his falcon eyes.
              He gives us strength, brings us to people,
              Free, we breathe deeply,
              And I won’t bow forever,
              And we will never cool our hearts ...
              He gives us strength, brings us to people.
              He writes laws for centuries and nations.
              So that the world is illuminated by a great sunrise, laughing That's where the personality cult is! They licked so that tongues were washed into the blood! laughing am
            2. Nikolai Korovin
              Nikolai Korovin 17 November 2019 22: 56
              +2
              One thing. Either a car or lumbering. Personally, I like logging in moderation. That on a good winter in the taiga was enough. A car - yes God be with her, with a car. Let Leonid Ilyich and Nixon carry from the underestimation of the Chinese.
        2. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 13 November 2019 18: 58
          +4
          Quote: Aviator_
          I visited Japan in 12 and made the impression that I was in the USSR during the 1980 period.

          Why so?
          1. Aviator_
            Aviator_ 13 November 2019 19: 09
            +4
            Wild bureaucracy in everything. A bunch of small papers - so when exchanging dollars for yen (and there everyone prefers cash for some reason) I needed the address of my hotel, where I stayed, but shortly before that they renamed the street where the hotel was located (doesn’t resemble anything?), Did it cost I have an extra half hour of proceedings, given the fact that almost no one speaks English there - of all the staff - a couple of employees. And the success of the Japanese, at least in the field of robotics at the time of the Fukushima disaster, was more than modest in comparison with the robotics of the USSR. And with the Japanese civilian aircraft there, too, strained - in the 70 years they tried to do something, but now they are not trying.
            1. Nikolai Korovin
              Nikolai Korovin 17 November 2019 22: 58
              +2
              Buying someone else’s patents is not going far. Even with American help. Skid, skid the Japanese. Lose markets.
              1. Aviator_
                Aviator_ 18 November 2019 08: 05
                +1
                There American assistance is very specific. For example, the emergence of a competitor in the field of civil aviation to Amer is generally useless, therefore, all attempts to revive the Japanese in this direction are unsuccessful.
    2. Civil
      Civil 13 November 2019 07: 46
      -18
      1. Stalin was one of the revolutionaries.
      2. Before Stalin in 1917-1924 was Lenin, probably he also made a huge contribution.
      3. Society, like the sea, is gradually changing its properties, and in no 1-2 generations the ways of its existence can be changed.
      4. And it doesn’t matter how the position of the ruler of Russia is called - the Grand Duke, Tsar, Emperor, First Secretary, President, always a regime of personal power. You always need your favorite master's boot for kissing.
      1. SOVIET UNION 2
        SOVIET UNION 2 13 November 2019 08: 51
        +28
        1. Well, Stalin was a revolutionary and a fighter for his ideas. So what? We Gaidar and Chubais are also revolutionaries and fighters for their idea. What brought their idea to Russia? 2. Yes, Lenin contributed. Created a new format of society. Gorbachev also created a new society. 3. Change the properties of society in one two generations? Easy! 1941-1991st! How many generations have passed? Some did not let in and drove the West out of their country, others in 50 years stupidly surrendered! 4. Is it important or unimportant what is the title of ruler? If Stalin is called the emperor, then they are not mistaken. The empire was. Putin is called the king. He has no empire. Although there is royal symbolism! And about the beloved master's boot. Then did not bow before the West, unlike perestroika and perestroika times. But from the time of Gorbachev, foreign boots were very fond of! And without them, well, nothing at all! And the wine does not pour down the throat and does not climb a sandwich! wassat
        1. Nasrat
          Nasrat 13 November 2019 09: 23
          -15
          What nonsense I just read .... Who carefully studies the documents of that era, real, historical documents will understand that the nonsense is written ...

          What elite of scientific personnel is discussed in the article if they are pressed in bundles?
          I give an example of Kapitsa:
          Yezhov could not arrest Kapitsa himself, but his employees - Vladimir Fok and Lev Landau - were taken. February 11, the morning after the arrest of Fock, Kapitsa wrote to Stalin, giving four arguments about why Fock should not be planted:
          "1. This will further increase the gap between scientists and the country, which, unfortunately, exists and which I would like to see destroyed.
          2. The arrest of Fock is an act of abuse of a scientist, which, like abuse of a machine, spoils its quality. To spoil the workability of Fock is to harm the entire world of science.
          3. Such treatment of Fock causes both our and Western scientists an internal reaction similar to, for example, reaction to the expulsion of Einstein from Germany.
          4. We have few scientists like Fock, and the Union Science can be proud of it before world science, but it becomes difficult when they put him in a jail. ”

          The same Kapitsa writes to Stalin:
          “So, 27 years after the revolution, we built a lot, mastered a lot, and how little of our large we brought into technology! Personally, I can name only one major achievement of ours - this is synthetic rubber. This is a truly global achievement, here we were at first ahead, but, unfortunately, America and Germany have already overtaken us today. How little we ourselves have felt and feel the significance of this greatest achievement! Academician Lebedev, a pioneer and creator, should have been a national hero, and after a trip in a hard carriage he grabbed typhus and died in 1934. This is a shameful case for us. It’s necessary to say bluntly that in a capitalist country if Lebedev would die, then, probably, in his salon-car and when the train crashed. ”

          Kapitsa himself was "pressed" throughout his life, but they were afraid to send him to the camps - the world community was already endlessly outraged when he was locked up in the USSR
          Kapitsa had gigantic weight at that time in world science ...

          And how lucky Queen SP was that he was already a lucrative man who didn’t have time for the Indigirka steamer, which sank !!! He is practically a corpse, he managed to survive, probably by the fact that there was an internal force in him ... - is this normal?
          1. Alexander Suvorov
            Alexander Suvorov 13 November 2019 09: 34
            +14
            NasRat (Evlampy Spiridonovich)
            What nonsense I just read .... Who carefully studies the documents of that era, real, historical documents will understand that the nonsense is written ...
            What elite of scientific personnel is discussed in the article if they are pressed in bundles?
            You are talking nonsense! Without the scientific elite, there would be no industrialization of the country. Tell me in favor, and who do you think was developing the ZIS-3, T-34, KV, IS, La 5/7, Yak 1/7/9/3, who ...?
            Well, the fact that some designers were locked in sharazhki was for their own good. Because some people didn’t get there at all, and the waste of public money on empty projects also took place.
            And then, the designer is a very valuable shot, spies can and will hunt for him, so it’s very wise to hide him in a sharazhka during the war.
            Remind me which of the leading designers was shot and for what?
            Grabin, at his own peril and risk, in violation of all conceivable instructions, put on stream his ZIS-3 not yet accepted for service, and yet Stalin did not touch him with his finger, because he received the most flattering reviews about this gun from the front.
            So it’s just you and your alleged "truth-tellers" who are talking nonsense.
            There would not be a scientific elite, there would be no flight into space, and there would also be no nuclear bomb!
            1. Nasrat
              Nasrat 13 November 2019 09: 46
              -28
              Uncle, all Soviet industrialization, all the military-industrial complex - was designed and created by an American Albert Kahn with his small company from Detroit Albert Kahn Associates Incorporated ..
              Who do you think designed and built (and where did he build !?) Stalingrad, Chelyabinsk tractor plants? I will answer you - the Americans, and built in America, the Stalingrad Tractor - the Americans built in 6 months !!! ...
              Why ask the Americans build? But because there were no domestic specialists at that time !!! Someone against the wall, and who managed to run abroad !! They are proletarians ...
              1. Alexander Suvorov
                Alexander Suvorov 13 November 2019 09: 58
                +17
                Uncle, I know very well who designed all these plants and even know why. Because in Russia no one simply could design them, there were no such plants in Russia. What does this have to do with your height?
                And at the same time take an interest in what Korolev and many others sat.
                So you and your kind are talking nonsense.
                You still did not answer the question of who created the technique on which we then broke the ridge of Nazi Germany and the entire united West.
                Do the following names tell you anything?
                Shops, Gurevich, Grabin, Koshkin, Kostrikov, Tikhomirov, Artemyev, Mikoyan, Ermolaev, Spirits, Degtyarev, Shpagin, Simonov and many many others.
                1. Nasrat
                  Nasrat 13 November 2019 10: 08
                  -24
                  And I will answer you, who created all this technique - our people, thank God endowed with talents !!! But the fact that all the technical intelligentsia has been mowed down is a fact! Then collected bit by bit ..

                  By the way, tell me what the Queen was planted for? What is he guilty of having to plant him?
                  1. Alexander Suvorov
                    Alexander Suvorov 13 November 2019 10: 13
                    +21
                    NasRat (Evlampy Spiridonovich)
                    And I will answer you, who created all this technique - our people, thank God endowed with talents !!!
                    Oh, another liberal nonsense. It turns out that our people did everything themselves, against the will of Stalin. The people organized themselves, constructed everything themselves, found the materials themselves, built them themselves, began to produce products themselves, organized themselves in regiments and divisions, equipped themselves and equipped themselves, and then fought. But what about the officials? But they damned all prevented the people from organizing themselves, put sticks in the wheels and did not let the people fight, and all this chaos was led by Stalin, along with Beria. I guessed?
                    How fool Need to be so nonsense to carry?
                    1. Nasrat
                      Nasrat 13 November 2019 10: 21
                      -27
                      That's just the point, according to the will of Stalin they rolled everyone into a jail in a row, and when they found out that there was nobody to move the country to, they began to rescue those who survived ... Do you judge by the same army and officers, which officer met the war?
                      What turned out to be the front line near Moscow, the Crimea surrendered, the Caucasus (!) Was barely kept, Leningrad was surrounded - do you think this simple soldier has become worse at war, compared with the First World War? Fortunately, there are talents in our people, and they appear in difficult years for the country ...
                      The failures of Stalin were blamed on the commanders of the districts and they were shot ... - Wasn’t that what?
                      1. Alexander Suvorov
                        Alexander Suvorov 13 November 2019 10: 26
                        +17
                        Yeah, they heard that half the country was sitting, and the second was guarding ... laughing
                        The purges among the officer corps were simply necessary, otherwise the war would have been lost in 1941.
                        I am honestly too lazy to answer you, your stamps on VO have been smeared on the wall a hundred times already, but you have repeatedly, with persistence worthy of better use, carry all this nonsense, which I am too lazy to refute. He who has ears, let him hear, he who has eyes, let him see, who has a brain ... but this does not apply to you!
                      2. Nasrat
                        Nasrat 13 November 2019 10: 52
                        -18
                        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
                        Yeah, they heard that half the country was sitting, and the second was guarding ... laughing
                        The purges among the officer corps were simply necessary, otherwise the war would have been lost in 1941.

                        Returning to Nicolas - he did not do the purges, but he did not give up the Crimea! And he didn’t retreat to Moscow ... Who is to blame? And why did you suddenly need cleansing? You look at the essence !!

                        sometimes I think that it would hardly have been a Great Patriotic War if there hadn’t been for the 1917 Revolution ..
                      3. Alexander Suvorov
                        Alexander Suvorov 13 November 2019 10: 58
                        +14
                        NasRat (Evlampy Spiridonovich)
                        Returning to Nicolas - he didn’t do any purges,
                        Well, yes, just a little people shot, and indiscriminately.
                        and Crimea did not give up!
                        And did Stalin pass Crimea to someone?
                        If I mean the capture of Crimea by the Germans in 1942, then I dare to remind you that Nikolashka completely blamed the Russo-Japanese war, not to mention the lost WWI.

                        And one more:
                        Stalin was a communist, say the communists.
                        Stalin was a nationalist - argue nationalists.
                        Stalin was scum and insignificance - scum and insignificance declare.
                      4. The comment was deleted.
                      5. depressant
                        depressant 13 November 2019 16: 19
                        +11
                        Alexander Suvorov, brilliantly!
                        And the high pathos of Samsonov’s article is because the era was pathos, of a cosmic scale.
                        So ask me what is the pathos of the current one, so at first I will laugh for a long time, and then I will answer the question with a question: "Are you serious?"
                        But actually bitter. We, the great nation of dreamers, creators, scientists, have been belittled to the position of animals - skillfully, gradually, subtly, so that it does not catch the eye, so as not to smell. And masterful state traitors of various denominations cooked us slowly, like a frog over low heat, simultaneously evaporating the sublime from us, replacing the oxygen of our dreams with the stench of momentary wretched needs.
                        And, at least partially, but it turned out. Because the great Stalin died at the wrong time. He would have lived another twenty years! And he was the only one with whom, Russians, the stars agreed. He became the father of the Soviet nation, he understood the need of our national soul for high flight and let us fly. And until now, in spite of the vile realities, our soul has not died out and is heading upwards, but its wings are broken and the atmosphere is poisoned. Hence the natural popular Stalinism.
                      6. Alexander Suvorov
                        Alexander Suvorov 13 November 2019 16: 33
                        +4
                        depressant (lyudmila yakovlevna kuznetsova)
                        Alexander Suvorov, brilliantly!
                        Thank you Lyudmila! love hi I try as far as possible.
                        And the high pathos of Samsonov’s article is because the era was pathos, of a cosmic scale.
                        They could also afford pathos, they allowed merit. By the way, Stalin himself did not like pathos or flattery, but was a pragmatist to the marrow of bones.
                        We, the great nation of dreamers, creators, scientists, have been belittled to the position of animals - skillfully, gradually, subtly, so that it does not catch the eye, so as not to smell.
                        This is very true and very subtly noticed. We from the builders of a great future have been reduced to the bestial level of consumer mice. From the most educated and reading nation, we have turned into a nation of victims of the exam. A dumb herd is easier to manage than a community of literate, thinking people.
                        And, at least partially, but it turned out. Because the great Stalin died at the wrong time. He would have lived another twenty years!
                        It is unfortunate that Stalin died without leaving a worthy receiver. More precisely, if Beria had shown as much energy in the undercover fight against Khrushchev as he had shown during the implementation of Stalin’s plans and would have emerged victorious, everything would probably not be so deplorable for the USSR. Repeated and will repeat Khrushchev and is the main culprit in curtailing the USSR from building a great country to its collapse. Tagged and Alkash are just the consequences of his reign.
                        Hence the natural popular Stalinism.
                        The more we fall into the pit of capitalism, the more people will strive for the Stalinist path of development. Because it was the path to justice for ALL, and not for units.
                      7. Andrey VOV
                        Andrey VOV 13 November 2019 16: 30
                        +7
                        For this, Eulmapy Spiridonovich, the scientific elite are figures such as the murderer and the psycho professor from St. Petersburg. That the young lady was also sawn by a professor from the Higher School of Economics, who called the Russian language the language of the gopniks or whatever.
                      8. Alexander Suvorov
                        Alexander Suvorov 13 November 2019 16: 41
                        +3
                        Andrey VOV (Andrey)
                        For this, Eulmapy Spiridonovich, the scientific elite are figures such as the murderer and the psycho professor from St. Petersburg. That the young lady was also sawn by a professor from the Higher School of Economics, who called the Russian language the language of the gopniks or whatever.
                        Well, one field of berries is immediately obvious!
                        I’m saying, scratch the anti-Soviet, you will find a Russophobe!
                        I already wrote, but I repeat. All our so-called crystal bakers are essentially traitors. Why? Yes, because of all the kings, they put idols on themselves the most worthless, in which Russia lay on its shoulder blades and would fall apart, if the Bolsheviks did not come to power. Well, there’s no need to take an example from Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Catherine the Great, but no, they take as an example the one who led the country to disaster. Here is bringing Russia to another disaster and there is their main goal!
                      9. Reptiloid
                        Reptiloid 13 November 2019 22: 44
                        +4
                        Quote: Andrey VOV
                        For this, Eulmapy Spiridonovich, the scientific elite are figures such as the murderer and the psycho professor from St. Petersburg. That the young lady was also sawn by a professor from the Higher School of Economics, who called the Russian language the language of the gopniks or whatever.
                        You can still remember the aunt-economist who, on the eve of May 9th, made up all kinds of obscenities about the siege of Leningrad .... by May 9th, such an illite always comes out with nasty things, they say, revelations, but who pays them for "discoveries"
                      10. Nikolai Korovin
                        Nikolai Korovin 13 November 2019 16: 52
                        +5
                        PMV lost the Provisional rrr-evolutionary government. Order number 1 - and it's done. And "Nikolashka" in the face of Japan fought, in fact, with England and America. Who armed Japan? At that moment it did not even have a steel industry sufficiently developed to build such a powerful fleet! All supply and replenishment of the army in Manchuria - through the single-track Transsib! Who forced Rozhdestvensky's squadron to march around Africa - of course, bearing in mind that while it crosses the equators there, the Japanese will deal with the Port Arthur squadron? Seems like the British. They were not allowed through the Suez Canal. I have nothing against praise for Stalin, only it is necessary to moderate the enthusiasm a little, but there is no reason to mix it with the crap of Nicholas II. The war is going on, and some gentlemen are organizing a revolution in the country (I mean 1905). The secret police was weak, weak. The NKVD did not even hold a candle. And if the director of the Police Department helps the revolutionaries, what does the tsar have to do with it?
                      11. APES
                        APES 13 November 2019 13: 51
                        +1
                        Quote: Nasr
                        sometimes I think that it would hardly have been a Great Patriotic War if there hadn’t been for the 1917 Revolution

                        It would still be, as will be the third, or rather, which is already going for the main prize: "who will have a new printing press"
                        according to the article - one pathos, and so I agree with you, if there was an opportunity, how many scientists and talented scientists would fall over a hill in those days?
                        Now the same thing, smart people are leaving, but now we have Seagal, Roy Jones, there was a network (HZ) Gerard Departier (the main motive for obtaining citizenship is only 13% personal income tax) and a couple of strange comrades.
                        Regarding the opponent of your dispute and the essence of the dispute, that is, people who share, and there are people who share. those who share - it is clear that most are not very smart ...
                        you were much more convincing :)
                      12. brat07
                        brat07 16 November 2019 04: 44
                        0
                        Quote: APES
                        Quote: Nasr
                        sometimes I think that it would hardly have been a Great Patriotic War if there hadn’t been for the 1917 Revolution

                        It would still be, as will be the third, or rather, which is already going for the main prize: "who will have a new printing press"
                        according to the article - one pathos, and so I agree with you, if there was an opportunity, how many scientists and talented scientists would fall over a hill in those days?
                        Now the same thing, smart people are leaving, but now we have Seagal, Roy Jones, there was a network (HZ) Gerard Departier (the main motive for obtaining citizenship is only 13% personal income tax) and a couple of strange comrades.
                        Regarding the opponent of your dispute and the essence of the dispute, that is, people who share, and there are people who share. those who share - it is clear that most are not very smart ...
                        you were much more convincing :)

                        Well, you, as I believe, are from the "caste" who "share"?
                      13. Nikolai Korovin
                        Nikolai Korovin 13 November 2019 16: 42
                        +9
                        And if the liberal State Duma had not demanded a "responsible ministry", it would not have thrown into jail the Minister of War Sukhomlinov, who seems to be not a spy, and finally, would not have removed Nicholas II himself ... So there would have been no revolution either. Unfortunately, the Duma officials were convinced that they should be allowed to steer, as in a couple of months general prosperity will come ... Such prosperity has come, that the people have become enraged. And all this, to the greatest regret, was, and it is necessary, at last, to digest it. When will the public realize that the repressions of 37-38 are a direct consequence of the "revolutionary legality" of the civil war, its final act? Were eliminated, if not all, then very many revolutionary leaders capable only of destruction, incl. the main leaders of collectivization in the grain regions. The number of the RCP (b) from 1934 to 1939 decreased from approximately 2,8 million to 1,6 million. By the way, the number of victims of repressions of 37-38 years is 15 times less than the number of victims of the civil war, about which the sufferers for 37 years do not bother to remember. Naturally, many innocent people suffered in such a meat grinder. Quite a few were released already in 1939, incl. and reinstated in the army. Rokossovsky, for example. This is not Stalin's personal evil will, but the inexorable course of history. The revolution devours its children - that is the law. Sometimes faster, sometimes slower. But always. And Stalin certainly did not personally write 4 million denunciations. All this must be thoroughly understood in all the details (I do not deny that I am giving a bare scheme) in order to prevent repetition, and not to groan - oh, if there were no revolution! It could not but be in that particular situation. Regarding the article itself - in my opinion, the author over-idealizes the era, although, admittedly, with some reason.
                      14. Alexander Suvorov
                        Alexander Suvorov 13 November 2019 17: 59
                        +5
                        Nikolay Korovin (Nikolay)
                        And if the liberal State Duma had not demanded a "responsible ministry", it would not have thrown into jail the Minister of War Sukhomlinov, who seems to be not a spy, and finally, would not have removed Nicholas II himself ... So there would have been no revolution either.
                        Very balanced, capacious and on the topic, neither diminish nor add. hi I subscribe to every word!
                      15. Nikolai Korovin
                        Nikolai Korovin 18 November 2019 03: 50
                        +2
                        Thank. I did my best.
                      16. tesser
                        tesser 13 November 2019 19: 32
                        -6
                        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
                        I subscribe to every word!

                        From me, too, plus)))
                        You are not quite right about the Duma - what His Majesty, such is the Parliament of His Majesty, but you can agree on the bright page in the 37th year.
                      17. Nikolai Korovin
                        Nikolai Korovin 18 November 2019 04: 01
                        +3
                        "There are spies with a strong body. You are at the door - they are at the window." The sovereign-anpirator did not like the first Duma - he dispersed it. The second is the same. And so on, and so on ... The fourth brought it to February. It was not a thought, but a platform for discrediting the government and pro-government forces. "Purishkevich: today in Zlatoust, the chairman of the local branch of the Union of the Russian People (that is, a bloody Black Hundred - NK) was killed. (Laughter from the left in the hall). The Duma must investigate this case (laughter intensifies).
                        I do not guarantee shorthand accuracy, but something like that. Well, Purishkevich, of course, sometimes made very strange maneuvers, but, apparently, in the hope of finding at least some allies, realizing that there are almost no pro-government deputies in the Duma - many Octobrists entered the first provisional government, although they did something like that? The intelligentsia applauded the voice of the people from the Duma rostrum. By the way, for example, Gumilyov objected when he was called an intellectual. "God forbid, I have a specialty!" - spoke. Here is a man walking against the tide. Not in everything, probably, you can agree with him, but still great.
                      18. tesser
                        tesser 18 November 2019 07: 03
                        -1
                        Quote: Nikolai Korovin
                        And so on and so forth ... The fourth brought to February.

                        And the Sovereign and the gene. Alekseev was not brought to February.

                        Well, OK.
                      19. Mordvin 3
                        Mordvin 3 13 November 2019 19: 24
                        +4
                        Quote: Nasr
                        sometimes I think that it would hardly have been a Great Patriotic War if there hadn’t been for the 1917 Revolution ..

                        Think deeper, Spiridonych. The Germans do not distinguish between WWII and WWII.
                      20. Reptiloid
                        Reptiloid 13 November 2019 22: 50
                        +2
                        Quote: mordvin xnumx
                        Quote: Nasr
                        sometimes I think that it would hardly have been a Great Patriotic War if there hadn’t been for the 1917 Revolution ..

                        Think deeper, Spiridonych. The Germans do not distinguish between WWII and WWII.
                        Greetings
                        Vladimir! The world map would be completely different. The temporary ones would be preserved --- the country would be torn to pieces and that's it
                      21. tesser
                        tesser 14 November 2019 07: 49
                        -3
                        Quote: Reptiloid
                        the country would be torn to pieces and all

                        )))
                        You are confusing something. The "supporters of federalization" at that time were just the Reds.
                      22. nedgen
                        nedgen 18 November 2019 01: 50
                        +3
                        Quote: Nasr
                        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
                        Yeah, they heard that half the country was sitting, and the second was guarding ... laughing
                        The purges among the officer corps were simply necessary, otherwise the war would have been lost in 1941.

                        Returning to Nicolas - he did not do the purges, but he did not give up the Crimea! And he didn’t retreat to Moscow ... Who is to blame? And why did you suddenly need cleansing? You look at the essence !!

                        sometimes I think that it would hardly have been a Great Patriotic War if there hadn’t been for the 1917 Revolution ..

                        Well, excuse me, "dear", but comparing WWI and WWII is the same as saying that a crocodile is longer than greener. fool I will give you only a few examples if they are so unknown to you. Firstly, in the WWII, from half to two-thirds of the German army ALL TIME was on the western front, and in WWII the fluorine front in practice barely barely opened in Italy until 1943, and then it pulled a dozen divisions from the eastern front. Secondly, in the Second World War, the German army was superior in training, tactics and operational art to absolutely all the armies of the world combined, and by the end of the war it was surpassed by the Red Army ONLY, and the allies even in early 1945 without 5-6-fold superiority in manpower and equipment and ABSOLUTE EXCELLENCE IN THE AIR could not even defend, not just to advance as it should.
                        As for the purges, yes Nikolasha did not do them. And to remind you how first he had to abdicate and then ended his life in the basement along with the whole family? If I cleared the top of the imperial so-called the elites might not have pissed off first Rusko Japanese and then the PMV and the entire empire.
                      23. evgen1221
                        evgen1221 13 November 2019 11: 18
                        +11
                        Take an interest when the IVS got real power in the country and its own team in the government sharing its views and what started after that and before. So all the excesses, even though there was Stalin in the government, were made of direct decisions and are tyranny of the old Bolsheviks to say the foam handed up. Having cleaned this scum for reliable people, they began to free people (hello delirium about Beria the executioner) and the country made a jerk in the minds of people.
                      24. Nasrat
                        Nasrat 13 November 2019 11: 43
                        -12
                        Interesting people ... When you talk about Stalin's "achievements" - you take the entire term of his rule ... And when about his failures, you refer to his real power ... casuistry .. It turns out that this is not his "achievements" in industrialization and collectivization? This once again says that you know that he is involved, to put it mildly, not beautiful affairs and are trying to shield him ...
                      25. evgen1221
                        evgen1221 13 November 2019 12: 36
                        +9
                        And I personally never talked about Stalin’s personal achievements in industrialization (well, he didn’t build the DreproGES alone. On involvement, Yes, there is part of his guilt, but we don’t forget about Blucher’s chaos and drunkenness in the Far East, for example, or creativity Khrushchev in Ukraine, Stalin just does not bear any responsibility, as well as for the art in the places of small kings, it’s just possible he knew something and was silent for something because he was burned out (delimiting the boundaries of the regions is worth it), well, who is not mistaken? it doesn’t, but the result of the IVS’s affairs is more substantial than its failures, you see, reformatting the population from the Mayak’s shtetl, I’m going to clean up any parasites from society to create a society full of well-founded hopes that everything is worth it today. For example, reformatting a person in our country back to a chewing hamster really like, although it’s for someone who drowns for it will be a great achievement,
                      26. Nasrat
                        Nasrat 13 November 2019 12: 55
                        -6
                        Stalin had nothing to do with the lawlessness in the Far East and the art of small kings ...? Interpolating today .... and what do we get? Putin is not in the affairs of lawlessness in the Far East and the art of small kings? You guys, be consistent!
                        As for reformatting and cleaning (your words!) Of all parasites - why was this carried out by denunciations and triples?
                        Do I agree with the affairs of today from the authorities - no .. I strongly disagree with many .. but this does not mean that the authorities should shoot me for this! And the family should be sent to the settlement ... so that there (a family) would have a new consciousness born and reformatting passed !!!!
                        If you are for this, and you are for it! then again blood and denunciations ... then, after all, the wives of big people were imprisoned, so that their husbands and statesmen could be "reformatted" ... and everyone was merrily reformatted into a society of creation ..



                      27. evgen1221
                        evgen1221 13 November 2019 12: 56
                        0
                        Are you already being shot?
                      28. Nasrat
                        Nasrat 13 November 2019 13: 08
                        -7
                        Quote: evgen1221
                        Are you already being shot?

                        Thank God no! Not that time ... But the adherents of Stalin, whom there is darkness, are ready to do it right now !!! Give them power - they will shoot you for some kind of hesitation in the personality of Stalin!
                      29. evgen1221
                        evgen1221 13 November 2019 14: 42
                        +4
                        Anything was, But mind you, we are trying to evaluate the time, people and actions from the perspective of today and morality. But few people try to give an assessment from the perspective of those days. Then we still did not move away from the civilian terror and thought a lot of people it’s the categories of terror in the first place. In America, highway to the labor army for 1 bucks a day or drove half the country — the gulag doesn’t resemble nirazu (you can cry over the innocent victims of the highway (not a bit better than we had, and they’re not cry and others are not allowed to tear their guano.) From the perspective of that time, this was probably the only way to quickly restore what was destroyed and get people to do a big job.
                      30. Nasrat
                        Nasrat 13 November 2019 15: 31
                        -5
                        Why didn’t you attract Hitler for example? After all, everything is so simple to explain, from your words, right?

                        And it’s strange, but today they ganged up on pension reform? How do you say there - maybe this is the only way to quickly restore the well-being of the elderly in the future? Funny excuse with pension reform? You have an excuse there - a revolution and civil war terror, and now an excuse for the terror of the 90s .... So, do you agree to undergo pension reform? After all, the whole alignment - according to your words, is written above!
                      31. APES
                        APES 13 November 2019 17: 00
                        -5
                        to restore the well-being of the elderly in the future?

                        There will be no old people in the future ...
                      32. Mordvin 3
                        Mordvin 3 13 November 2019 19: 28
                        -3
                        Quote: Nasr
                        So, do you agree to undergo pension reform?

                        And what depends on my answer?
                      33. evgen1221
                        evgen1221 13 November 2019 20: 53
                        +3
                        Nothing is independent of your answer here, but much is possible from your actions in reality ...
                      34. evgen1221
                        evgen1221 13 November 2019 21: 03
                        +2
                        Well, it starts, we started with one thing, we jump to a pensioner who is not even close to the topic of controversy, about the Rosguard or about Syria with the Ukrainians, let's drag in to distract from the topic. What and how people in the government are doing today is the result of education, decency and general morality as well as hotelok and the capabilities of today's generation, At that time everything was different and it was necessary to approach the issue more deeply by understanding those times and people with their needs, the environment and worldview at that time, and not by today's standards of free access to information, comfort and forgive by the concepts of rights human and greenpeace.
                      35. haron
                        haron 13 November 2019 22: 48
                        0
                        Quote: Nasr
                        Give them power - they will shoot

                        You must not be shot.
                        You deserve to be the Minister of Health. With your talents, put things in order for the year.
                        or little? Maybe you want the president. Then surely everything will be in openwork in this country.
                        Do you agree? The question is trifling, the main thing you want. Leave the rest to them. They will do.
                        I repeat. Write that you will do everything right, in this country. And you will be given all the opportunities and resources. You will figure out the timing and price along the way.
                        PS Two coins for me still cook. This is if the terms of the problem come out, or with desires.
                        PSS. Responsibility costs only as much as it affects the fate of others and lives. Exchange allowed a maximum of 1 to 10.
                      36. Nikolai Korovin
                        Nikolai Korovin 18 November 2019 04: 22
                        +2
                        Real power came before collectivization. This is his decision. Absolutely necessary. But Bukharin and the Bukharinites decided to surpass him. Somehow we forget about the "favorite of the party". After 27, he was probably the first person for a while. As an example of Stalin's hypocrisy, an article about excesses is cited. But before that he wrote personally to the most zealous collectivizers to moderate their agility. After the article, there was a rollback in the pace of collectivization. Many, driven out by force, left. But then they entered again on the sly. We saw real benefits. About the executioner Beria - not nonsense, but a strategic move by Khrushchev. Beria was the first to expose the cult right at Stalin's funeral, and he himself rocked the situation. Amnesty and the "cold summer of 1953" are his creation. Khrushchev picked up a valuable idea and turned the arrows to Beria. Until Beria took it up. As Malenkov said in 1957, "You are completely clean with us, Nikita Sergeich."
                      37. Nikolai Korovin
                        Nikolai Korovin 17 November 2019 23: 09
                        +2
                        Russia did not fight in World War I with a united Europe. The Germans held on the Eastern Front during the offensive on Paris no more than 20% of their forces. The transfer of two corps by the Germans during the Battle of Marne saved the French, but destroyed the army of Samsonov. The Austrians are still those warriors. In addition, they also intensified the revolutionary community and nationalists (Hungarian, Czech). So the enemy was much weaker in quality. Finland was part of Russia - a rather significant factor. Romania took the side of the Entente - however, in 1916. With the Turks in 1914-15, the war was sluggish. The Turks were far from the same as before. The actions against Turkey initially did not require much more troops than for the occupation of Northern Iran in 1942. So to compare the course of action in the First War and the Great Patriotic War is not worth it. Too different.
                      38. Ragoz
                        Ragoz 19 November 2019 02: 37
                        -1
                        Us Ratu:
                        The expanses of Russia that were surrendered in 41-42 have returned, and under Yeltsin and Putin they have surrendered all of Russia, and whoever will return will be people like you who are suitable only for licking.
                    2. Reptiloid
                      Reptiloid 13 November 2019 22: 25
                      +4
                      А wassat liberals have such a fashion ---- the people themselves, did everything good in the USSR, not only not because of it, but contrary to the Bolsheviks and Stalin.
                      The question then becomes, why are liberalists in power now? If such a people are good and independent, contrary to the leadership, these liberal ones are definitely useless !!!!
                      Quote: Alexander Suvorov
                      ..... The people of us, it turns out, did everything themselves, against the will of Stalin. The people organized themselves, constructed everything themselves, found the materials themselves, built them themselves, began to produce products themselves, organized themselves in regiments and divisions, equipped themselves and armed themselves, and then fought. But what about the officials? And they damned all prevented the people from organizing themselves, inserted sticks into the wheels and did not allow the people to fight, and all this chaos was led by Stalin, along with Beria. I guessed?
                      How fool Need to be so nonsense to carry?
                  2. Aviator_
                    Aviator_ 13 November 2019 19: 15
                    +5
                    Korolev sat down for a waste of funds. There was a terms of reference for a "rocket torpedo" (in fact, a cruise missile). Its characteristics (with LPRE) would have been worse than the shells of the same BM-13 with solid propellants, but even Korolev could not bring his own "rocket torpedo". And then they asked strictly for the waste of money. So he sat down.
                    1. tesser
                      tesser 13 November 2019 19: 21
                      -4
                      Quote: Aviator_
                      And for embezzlement of money then asked strictly. So he sat down.

                      Oh my god.
                      I had a present for AlekseyRA, okay, catch it.
                      According to the combat capabilities of the RS M-13 approximately corresponded to 122 mm OFS:

                      The jet engine of this shell is 7,1 kg of special powder in checkers, which the USSR was forced to order in England already in the fall of 1941 (d /// people can begin to howl about comrade Stalin's trusting and faithful union duty). 7,1 kg of gunpowder is about twice as much as a propellant charge in a 122 mm howitzer shot, the shell of which was not only much cheaper, but also turned around (it was supposed to be delivered to the used shells to the industry).

                      The jet engine of this projectile is alloy steel and the work of fairly skilled turners in addition to more voluminous body work and very stringent (in theory) requirements for the accuracy of stabilizers and warhead installation.

                      The M-13 rocket projectile for September 1941 is 962 rubles 62 kopecks of "people's" money, at a cost of 122 mm HE shot howitzer arr. 1910/30 with the same fuse (RVMZ) at 186 rubles 55 kopecks (a difference of 5,16 times). At the price of 122 mm HE shot howitzer arr. 1938 with the same fuse and a brass sleeve at 198 rubles 48 kopecks, the difference in the price of a shot is 4,85 times. At a cost of 152 mm HE shot howitzer arr. 1909/30 with the same fuse of 280 rubles 88 kopecks, the difference in the price of a shot is 3,43 times. At a price of 152 mm HE shot howitzer arr. 1938 with the same fuse and a brass sleeve of 307 rubles 98 kopecks, the difference in the price of a shot falls as much as 3,12 times. , 962 rubles 62 kopecks of the cost of the M-13 is no longer only PF shots of all Soviet divisional and corps artillery, but also at least some of the BM artillery howitzer shots - a shot of a 203 mm concrete-piercing shell from a B-4 howitzer cost the Soviet treasury only 905 rubles 4 kopecks.

                      And all this was multiplied by the dispersal wildest compared to the artillery, the impossibility of hitting point targets and the limited possibilities of hitting targets observed from the front line NP - so as not to cover their trenches due to the same dispersion ....

                      Who is there among the modern purulent fighting gays who are always trying to talk about those who are correctly shot and sent to the camps because of the waste of designers and scientists? The same Queen and Langemak? Korolyov, specifically, Kostikov and his supervisors were sent under a firing squad for an "air torpedo" - UR on telecontrol. Control, yes. Moreover, it is designed not on its own initiative, but according to the work plan approved by the chief engineer of the institute according to the order of the GAU. Moreover, the order was not only made by RNII / NII-3, but also by such a subcontractor as NII-20, which was supposed to provide radio control equipment. The leading designers were also shot.

                      PS. kris_reid You can add to the list that before the war the plant No. 70 NKB was taken for the production of RS-s, which had the maximum experience and equipment for the production of 76-mm armor-piercing.
                      Of which in the warehouses of GAU on 1.06.1941/26/000 lay 8,5 pieces. Three pieces each for 76 thousand XNUMX mm divisional guns of the Red Army. even without tank artillery.


                      https://rostislavddd.livejournal.com/367338.html
                      1. brat07
                        brat07 16 November 2019 16: 44
                        0
                        livejournal

                        He says a lot. However!
                      2. tesser
                        tesser 16 November 2019 19: 35
                        -3
                        Kindly express yourself more clearly.
                      3. brat07
                        brat07 16 November 2019 20: 05
                        +1
                        Quote: tesser
                        Kindly express yourself more clearly.

                        The link, let's say, is not very benign.
                        If you have more specific information, then I will be grateful to you. hi
                      4. tesser
                        tesser 16 November 2019 21: 23
                        -3
                        Quote: brat07
                        The link, let's say, is not very benign.

                        It seems that you are on the Internet recently. As in VO there were authors who can be quoted, and there are authors who cannot be categorically quoted, in LJ there are different resources. Marchenko’s blog is one of the quality sources for rivets where you can meet the veterans of the VIF. Mentioned AlekseyRA in this fumbles.
                        Quote: brat07
                        If you have more specific information,

                        The cited fragment sunk into the soul thanks to the wording relating to Alexei at the beginning of the third paragraph from the bottom.

                        What specific information are you interested in?
                    2. Nasrat
                      Nasrat 14 November 2019 09: 19
                      -3
                      The designer was accused of membership in the Trotskyist anti-Soviet counter-revolutionary group and wrecking. All previously arrested scientists, including Ivan Kleimenov, Georgy Langemak and Valentin Glushko, testified against Korolev and confirmed that such an organization really existed within the walls of the Reactive Research Institute.
                  3. haron
                    haron 13 November 2019 22: 34
                    +4
                    Quote: Nasr
                    And I will answer you, who created all this technique - our people, thank God endowed with talents !!!

                    Can you tell me where your "people" are now?
                    Where all the talents have gone. After all, under power, for 30 years, there are no longer Stalin-like general secretaries.
                    What are you and your people capable of without Stalin? ! I will help - on liberalism, and this is a fact. Scream what you want - in power a liberal, corrupt bastard.
                    I am not kidding. And I’m not trolling. Where are the facts that in the country from year to year at least a little but better. Where is the growth of the economy due to the rural population? ... Sori, the rural population is dying, and the economy too ... everything is dying.
                    But it is Stalin's fault! ..How long will you blame him for your impotence?
                  4. Varyag71
                    Varyag71 18 November 2019 16: 07
                    -2
                    Well, what now does the people create nothing?
                  5. Ragoz
                    Ragoz 19 November 2019 02: 23
                    +1
                    About Burning wrote R. Burns:
                    Donkey will remain a donkey
                    You at least shower him with stars
                    Where to act with the mind
                    He claps his ears.
                2. ALEXEY VLADIMIROVICH
                  ALEXEY VLADIMIROVICH 13 November 2019 10: 27
                  0
                  Quote: Alexander Suvorov
                  Do the following names tell you anything?
                  Shops, Gurevich

                  We know, we know ... And also the names of Sikorsky, Kalinin, Polikarpov ... Kalinin was a friend of Sikorsky, worked in one design bureau. Sikorsky emigrated to the USA, Kalinin refused, said he would work for his Soviet homeland .... As a result, Igor Sikorsky became a millionaire and a world-famous designer, and in 1938 the Chekists took him to the basement and shot him in the back of the head. A list for execution where Kalinin appeared, signed by Stalin, Molotov and Zhdanov. https: //topwar.ru/69711-sudba-konstruktora. html
                  Researchers of the history of Russian aviation V.R.Mikheev and G.I.Katyshev in their capital research on I.I. Sikorsky analyzed the biographies of 75 leading Russian specialists who worked until 1917 together with the creator of Ilya Muromets, including the RBVZ aviation enterprise . Of these, only one died before 1917, 25 died between 1917 and 1924. 32 emigrated. Moreover, among the emigrants - not only I. I. Sikorsky himself and employees of his company, but also such outstanding specialists as S. P. Timoshenko, G. A. Botezat, A. A. Lebedev, L. V. Bazilevich for many decades being the "golden fund" of science and technology in France and the United States. Only 17 out of 75 specialists remained to work in the USSR, and 8 out of 17, including the outstanding designer of fighter aircraft N.N. Polikarpov, were repressed
                  1. Alexander Suvorov
                    Alexander Suvorov 13 November 2019 10: 37
                    +6
                    Sikorsky is certainly a talent, but it would be better if his commissars banged in time than he did so to our enemy.
                    Kalinin is frankly sorry, but by the way, it is still not known who denounced him. Probably envious of other KB?
                    Hard time required tough, and often cruel, measures.
                    Better answer me the question, how much longer would the USSR create a nuclear bomb if the process would not be personally supervised by Beria?
                    1. Nasrat
                      Nasrat 13 November 2019 11: 08
                      -9
                      It's funny to read !! You see, he is frankly sorry for Kalinin !!! What cynicism !!! We are, they say, for Stalin's methods, but frankly sorry for Kalinin !!!! These are the "pitiful" ones and they shot in the back of the head ... and this is for scientists, but what can we say about the kulak, who had a cow that he did not give to the collective farm? Obviously, I don’t feel sorry for him at all !!!
                      1. Alexander Suvorov
                        Alexander Suvorov 13 November 2019 11: 20
                        +10
                        NasRat (Evlampy Spiridonovich) These are the "pitiful" and shot in the back of the head ... and this is for scientists
                        Even today I would have let half of our so-called intelligentsia into consumption, and I would have forced the rest to work out the bread in the camps. So yes, here you are right.
                        but what about the fist
                        Oh, that's not just about the "disadvantaged" kulaks. My father-in-law had a grandfather with a fist. So when they seized the surplus of food, he secretly hid his surplus, and showed his sons where to hide, and then he handed these places over to the surplus appropriation system. But when the hunger began, he did not give a grain to either the children or grandchildren. These are the fists they are.
                        I can post about a dozen more kulaks of such stories, and these are examples not from anywhere, but from the history of my family and the families of acquaintances, we had many prosperous fists on the Don.
                      2. Nasrat
                        Nasrat 13 November 2019 11: 27
                        -5
                        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
                        NasRat (Evlampy Spiridonovich) These are the "pitiful" and shot in the back of the head ... and this is for scientists
                        Even today I would have let half of our so-called intelligentsia into consumption, and I would have forced the rest to work out the bread in the camps. So yes, here you are right.
                        .


                        In-in ... those who shot, then they shot themselves ... Fun life and you dream about it !! Isn't that crazy? And you, obviously a kind person, all in the grandfather ... wassat
                        To shoot those who gave bread, and then create collective farms, because bassota did not want to produce bread more than they need for the family !!! Earth now was theirs! But there was no bread! And the fists had !!! strange arithmetic ...
                        Well, yes ... you’re tired of it ... once an adept, then do not rebuild you It is advisable to dip you in that time, but there are no such machines, now ...

                        cheat. Remember my nickname, when your time comes to shoot at the back of the head - I think I will be in the forefront for execution ... a murderer and executioner! tongue
                      3. Alexander Suvorov
                        Alexander Suvorov 13 November 2019 11: 39
                        +1
                        NasRat (Evlampy Spiridonovich)
                        And you, obviously a kind person all in the grandfather ...
                        You can think and write about me as you like, but my grandfather, a veteran of two wars, an artillery officer who spent the whole war on the front end, had two injuries and a bunch of awards, you should not touch with your filthy hands. For such things, faces are beaten, and hard, but you're a coward. On the Internet, all the brave ones fight with the marks, right?
                        To shoot those who gave bread, and then create collective farms, because bassota did not want to produce more bread than they need for the family !!!
                        And who should feed the country and army? Fists or holy spirit? Such as you listen so let the whole country die of hunger, so what?
                        But there was no bread! And the fists had !!!
                        First you need to learn history, then you would know why the kulaks were dispossessed and why the collective farms were created.

                        Tired of me like a bitter radish, it’s boring to comment on your stupid nonsense.
                      4. Nasrat
                        Nasrat 13 November 2019 11: 47
                        -3
                        grandfather and war covered up ... you can immediately see the adherent of Stalin!

                        And history really needs to be taught! Before the revolution, fists and themselves fed both the country and half the world .... this is for you, not to buy bread from Canada and the USA ...
                      5. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 13 November 2019 16: 36
                        +3
                        Quote: Nasr
                        Before the revolution, fists and themselves fed both the country and half the world.

                        Yeah, people in our country were swelling with hunger. Did their fists forget to feed? Or just didn’t want to? fool
                      6. karabass
                        karabass 13 November 2019 19: 02
                        -1
                        And YOU, dear, why don’t you think that in case of the dictatorship (which you require) the check, having read your comments, you will be among the first to be shot or killed in the camps! and?
                      7. RUSS
                        RUSS 13 November 2019 20: 46
                        -4
                        Quote: karabass
                        And YOU, dear, why don’t you think that in case of the dictatorship (which you require) the check, having read your comments, you will be among the first to be shot or killed in the camps! and?

                        They want Stalin for others, not for themselves)
                      8. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 13 November 2019 16: 35
                        +3
                        Quote: Nasr
                        To shoot those who gave bread, and then create collective farms, because bassota did not want to produce more bread than they need for the family !!!

                        It was just the opposite: those who had bread did not want to give it: "If they starve, they will pay more," and those whom you called "Basota" (by the way, most of the peasantry, hence the people in general) did not want, and COULD NOT produce more bread than they need for the family. And often they could not. That is why collectivization with dispossession was needed.
                      9. Sergey1987
                        Sergey1987 13 November 2019 16: 54
                        -2
                        Quote: Nasr
                        Isn't that crazy?

                        There are some people like him, you’ll just be shocked. Brainless ones directly dream of the 30s, without even realizing that if they were the 30s now, they would be the first to put critics like them to the wall. They write from laptops about the poverty in which we live buying cars and apartments, which ordinary citizens could only dream of in the 30s. And all this with the current life expectancy is 2 times higher. And all this is justified by industrialization.
                      10. Mordvin 3
                        Mordvin 3 13 November 2019 19: 42
                        0
                        Quote: Sergey1987
                        They write from laptops about the poverty in which we live buying cars and apartments, which ordinary citizens in 30 could only dream of.

                        laughing Catherine also dreamed about a car. Kulibin made her. With pedals and box. yes
                      11. Sergey1987
                        Sergey1987 14 November 2019 16: 42
                        -1
                        Quote: Mordvin 3
                        Catherine also dreamed about a car. Kulibin made her. With pedals and box

                        The interesting humor you have is just not funny. Why you wrote this is not clear.
                      12. Mordvin 3
                        Mordvin 3 13 November 2019 19: 34
                        -1
                        Quote: Nasr
                        To shoot those who gave bread, and then create collective farms, because bassota did not want to produce more bread than they need for the family !!!

                        Nonsense is complete. Grandfather's parents were laborers. Plowed from morning to night. You, Spiridonych, who in life? Executioner?
                        Quote: Nasr
                        I will be in the forefront for execution ... the killer and the executioner!

                        Look, how would you turn your guts out.
                      13. George Davydov
                        George Davydov 19 November 2019 21: 34
                        0
                        It was necessary to indicate - who were the laborers and what income did they receive from this? Namely, the same question now stands: to earn income using laborers, or rather, office plankton and not only.
                    2. tesser
                      tesser 13 November 2019 14: 05
                      -10
                      Quote: Alexander Suvorov
                      how much longer would the USSR create a nuclear bomb if the process did not personally supervise Beria?

                      And why did he create a nuclear bomb in peacetime?
                      1. fighter angel
                        fighter angel 13 November 2019 14: 40
                        +6
                        tesser.
                        "... Why did he create a nuclear bomb in peacetime? ..."

                        Please pretend to be a stupid person, Mr. Amerophile?
                      2. tesser
                        tesser 13 November 2019 15: 22
                        -9
                        Quote: fighter angel
                        Please pretend to be a stupid person, Mr. Amerophile?

                        Do you have an answer to this question?
                      3. zenion
                        zenion 13 November 2019 15: 57
                        +3
                        In order to have something to transfer with "peaceful" America.
                      4. tesser
                        tesser 13 November 2019 16: 12
                        -6
                        Quote: zenion
                        In order to have something to transfer with "peaceful" America.

                        With whom I fought or was going to fight America 26.06.1941/16.07.1945/20.08.1945 until 29.08.1949/XNUMX/XNUMX, I know. With whom did the USSR fight from XNUMX to XNUMX?
                      5. Alexander Suvorov
                        Alexander Suvorov 13 November 2019 14: 54
                        +4
                        tesser (-_-)
                        And why did he create a nuclear bomb in peacetime?
                        I do not answer inadequate questions!
                        Ask your doctor such questions. For example, why treat a patient if he is sick?
                      6. tesser
                        tesser 13 November 2019 15: 22
                        -8
                        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
                        For example, why treat a patient if he is sick?

                        Do not understand. What was the USSR sick in the 49th year?
                      7. zenion
                        zenion 13 November 2019 15: 58
                        +6
                        USSR in 1949, vaccinated against sick America.
                      8. chenia
                        chenia 13 November 2019 16: 31
                        +4
                        Quote: tesser
                        And why did he create a nuclear bomb in peacetime?


                        That peacetime would continue until today (which is what happened) ..
                      9. tesser
                        tesser 13 November 2019 17: 11
                        -6
                        Quote: chenia
                        What would peacetime go on to this day?

                        That is, where the bomb was not created, there was no peace time? Well, I don’t know, in Finland?
                      10. chenia
                        chenia 13 November 2019 17: 29
                        +4
                        Quote: tesser
                        where the bomb was not created, there was no peace time?


                        In Iraq, Libya, Syria, Vietnam, there was no bomb, and there was no peace either. And, interestingly, Finland would not have been if we hadn’t had a bomb.

                        You, as I understand it, idealize people, everyone thinks how to make you good and pleasant. And some near-minded people (and communities of people-states) keep a stone in his bosom.
                        And we should relax and have fun.

                        And ask yourself, why the hell is the US nuclear weapon? From Honduras, from Mexico (there are enough walls there). Or is Canada making aggressive plans?
                      11. tesser
                        tesser 13 November 2019 17: 58
                        -8
                        Quote: chenia
                        Iraq, Libya, Syria

                        This is an example? I heard there are generally troubled places, no? The Jews, by the way, have nuclear weapons, but they did not live much calmer.
                        Quote: chenia
                        Vietnam

                        It would seem, where does the USSR?
                        Quote: chenia
                        And, interestingly, Finland would not have been if we hadn’t had a bomb.

                        I mean, Comrade would be nervous. Stalin did the Finnish ASSR in the end?
                        Quote: chenia
                        You, as I understand it, idealize people,

                        Rather the opposite.
                        Quote: chenia
                        everyone thinks how to make you good and pleasant.

                        All do not care more or less.
                        Quote: chenia
                        And we should relax and have fun.

                        By the way, a good idea. And then all too sandwiched and enjoy little.
                        Quote: chenia
                        And ask yourself, why the hell is the US nuclear weapon?

                        You will not believe, they discussed this issue for about 5 years later.
                        Quote: chenia
                        From Honduras, from Mexico (there are enough walls there)

                        In the 40s, they had a crazy idea that nuclear weapons would guarantee the end of all wars. When comrade Stalin explained to them in the 48th, using the example of Berlin, that no, nifiga, it was already too late.
                      12. Alexander Suvorov
                        Alexander Suvorov 13 November 2019 18: 04
                        +4
                        chenia (kanonier)
                        You, as I understand it, idealize people
                        You have a very good opinion of him, he is just an empty pro-Western troll, no more, and not very smart, in the sense of absolutely fool not smart.
                      13. tesser
                        tesser 14 November 2019 07: 48
                        -3
                        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
                        and not very smart, in the sense of not at all smart.

                        This is written by a person who believes that the Reich lost due to the organization of Todt)). Say, not all peasants were recorded in this wonderful organization)))
                      14. George Davydov
                        George Davydov 19 November 2019 21: 48
                        +2
                        It should be recalled that by the end of World War II, both the United States and England were preparing military plans to attack their ally, the USSR, as well as plans for atomic bombing of Soviet cities. Although this fruit, apparently, is overripe in reverence in the West, and therefore it perverts everything. Indeed, it is of little use. And about Israel and the Jews, I propose to read the speech of the messenger of God on earth from the Chabad Lubavitch sect. Very informative on the topic - who and why carried out the repression, created this authoritarian-bureaucratic regime and made a liberal coup with all that follows. In it, this scumbag does not hesitate to call himself and the like Jewish fascists, waging a war against Russians and Slavs for more than three thousand years. This, apparently, is the answer to everything that happens.
                    3. zenion
                      zenion 13 November 2019 15: 56
                      +2
                      In many design bureaus, those who seemed to be for the power of the Soviets worked, so to speak. So they wrote different denunciations and anonymous letters. Only after there was an addition, as regards anonymous letters, the river of denunciations ceased. And they wrote simply who writes anonymous letters that were not confirmed during the investigation, then the anonymous reporter will be sentenced to as many years as the slander had to serve.
                  2. fighter angel
                    fighter angel 13 November 2019 14: 23
                    +7
                    ALEXEY VLADIMIROVICH.
                    You don’t know anything!
                    And do not drag the feathered predator to the model of the Earth.
                    Firstly, Kalinin was not a friend of Sikorsky. And he was not a student either! Kalinin never even worked at RBVZ. He is a warrant officer of an infantry regiment, from raznochintsy, a mechanic by training, in the PMV, after being wounded, was transferred to an air squad. He simply could not physically meet Sikorsky anywhere in such circumstances. And you are talking about some kind of friendship ...
                    Second. Kalinin received the Kharkov aircraft plant from the Soviet power! A whole plant, imagine! Unlike Sikorsky, who literally vegetated in America, he collected crumbs in the corners. And if it were not for the lucky chance in the person of Sergei Rachmaninoff, where would Sikorsky be at all ??? Things for him, at the very least, went uphill only in the mid-1930s ... When Rachmaninov began to give Sikorsky money! And Kalinin, thanks to Soviet power, has been building his aircraft in Kharkov since the mid-1920s. Feel the difference. Kalinin is here, in the USSR, and has already been building his planes since 1925, he is in charge of the design bureau and the plant at his complete disposal, and Sikorsky is looking for grandmothers in America, rushing about with his projects that no one needs there because he has no money !! ! This is how America is, the country of "equal opportunities"!
                    The third. Kalinin consistently builds small passenger and ambulance aircraft - K-1, K-2, K-3, K-4, K-5.
                    K-4, and especially K-5, go into mass production.
                    Kalinin decides that he "grabbed God by the beard," and literally "on his knee", without preliminary calculations, "by eye" begins the construction of the giant aircraft K-7. Fatal error! Even Tupolev, having TsAGI behind him, and this is a powerful research base, did not risk it, and did not promise to build "giant aircraft" as hastily as Kalinin did!
                    Fourth. Kalinin neglected training and self-improvement as an aircraft designer, building in the old fashioned way, by trial and error. Everything new in science passed him by ... Similarly, another "star" of the Soviet aircraft industry in those years, Grigorovich, tried to build her activities as an aircraft designer. The result turned out to be logical: Plane crash, K-7 just fell apart in the air.
                    Fifth: Trying to maintain his authority before the Soviet government, and to get the Voronezh aircraft plant at his disposal, he deliberately deceived! He promised deliberately unattainable flight characteristics, and deliberately impracticable terms for the start of production of his unfinished "K-12" aircraft. Which, "Firebird", a multipurpose front-line reconnaissance aircraft, light bomber, spotter ... Lied and dodged as best he could. The Soviet government did not forgive him for deception ...
                    For which he received ...
                    In the basement of the Voronezh prison ...
                    1. Alexander Suvorov
                      Alexander Suvorov 13 November 2019 14: 50
                      +4
                      fighter angel (Alex)
                      Fifth: Trying to maintain his authority before the Soviet government, and to get the Voronezh aircraft plant at his disposal, he deliberately deceived! He promised deliberately unattainable flight characteristics, and deliberately impracticable terms for the start of production of his unfinished "K-12" aircraft. Which, "Firebird", a multipurpose front-line reconnaissance aircraft, light bomber, spotter ... Lied and dodged as best he could. The Soviet government did not forgive him for deception ...
                      For which he received ...
                      In the basement of the Voronezh prison ...
                      Alexey hi such revelations for bakers as a Faberge sickle. I wanted to answer in the same spirit as you, but then I decided that it was only to spoil the poor to teach. At least urinate them in the eyes, all of God's dew. They do not see and do not want to see anything that stands out from their wretched vision of the world. For them, tsarist Russia is a country where milk rivers flowed in the jelly banks, where the peasants were completely literate, well-fed and happy. The fact that everything was exactly the opposite in their parallel reality does not fit. And it’s okay to take the periods of the rise of Russia, such as the Petrovsky or Catherine’s periods, but no, they take as an example precisely the period of the decline of Russia during its most worthless reign.
                      Hence a simple conclusion, these are people for whom the decline of Russia is the main goal! That's it. Not for nothing they say, scratch the anti-Soviet you will see a Russophobe!
                3. Sergey1987
                  Sergey1987 13 November 2019 16: 21
                  +3
                  Quote: Alexander Suvorov
                  And at the same time take an interest in what Korolev and many others sat.

                  So you yourself take an interest and read. Everything is far-fetched.
                  Grounds for arrest: testimonies of I.T. Kleimenov (executed), G.E. Langemak (executed), V.P. Glushko - all three called S.P. Korolev an accomplice of the counter-revolutionary Trotskyist organization inside the RNII, “Aimed at weakening the defense power in favor of fascism”
                  He was charged under Article 58, on two points: 58-7 - “Undermining state industry ... committed for counter-revolutionary purposes by appropriate use of state institutions and enterprises, or opposing their normal activities”
                  Do you really believe in this nonsense?
                  1. Alexander Suvorov
                    Alexander Suvorov 13 November 2019 16: 55
                    +2
                    Sergey1987 (Sergey)
                    He was charged under Article 58, on two points: 58-7 - “Undermining state industry ... committed for counter-revolutionary purposes by appropriate use of state institutions and enterprises, or opposing their normal activities”
                    I really believe! Because I really know that he was accused of creating absolutely unnecessary missiles that could not be aimed at the target due to the lack of appropriate materials and technologies, which he was warned about by other scientists. But Korolev was stubborn and eventually made 4 copies of the rocket each at a price comparable to the price of a bomber. As a result, not a single rocket missed the target, but didn’t even fly in the right direction. One of them fell on the bunker, where there were observers from the command of the Red Army. They also wanted to impute an attempt on attempted assassination, but the article was quickly canceled because there was no control on missiles; accordingly, he could not launch them purposefully. As a result, he was soldered and deservedly misplaced waste of state funds. So it's all about the case, learn the story!
                    1. Sergey1987
                      Sergey1987 14 November 2019 16: 40
                      -1
                      Quote: Alexander Suvorov
                      I really believe!

                      Do you believe that he deliberately weakened the military-industrial complex in order to sweeten fascist Germany? That's just funny. This is utter nonsense. And most importantly, unproven. The evidence is zero. In your opinion, he sat like this in the design bureau and thought, why not help the Germans help the military-industrial complex to weaken? Kindergarten.
                      And about what you wrote further, you won’t throw off the link where did you read this?
                      1. andrew42
                        andrew42 19 November 2019 16: 47
                        +1
                        On purpose, not on purpose .... On purpose, not on purpose ... What a babble! This is not the junior group of the kindergarten, but the defense industry! Moreover, in a country left with a hoe after the Citizen, surrounded from all sides by high-tech, armed to the teeth bourgeoisie, with the main doctrine of the "Crusade against communism". In a country where no one will give loans because of the hillock. In a country that can rely exclusively on internal resources - raw materials, financial, infrastructural, and most importantly, personnel! (to be nurtured). This is war baby! This is a fight where the crowd prepares to kick you. And if "everyone was shot," then, as Jack Sparrow said, "where does the news come from then?" Who then created the pre-war military-industrial complex?
                      2. Sergey1987
                        Sergey1987 20 November 2019 13: 34
                        -1
                        Quote: andrew42
                        On purpose, not on purpose .... On purpose, not on purpose ... What a babble!

                        Baby sculpts?))))) A passenger in this world without evidence can only talk, but it will still remain chatter, not evidence. And you can rave as much as you like, that Korolev worked for Germany or Luxembourg, or tried to destroy the military-industrial complex, without proof it will remain your ravings.
                        Quote: andrew42
                        And in the country left with a hoe after Citizens

                        And here what country remained after the citizen to the fact that a lot of people on false charges were shot and put in prison?
                        Quote: andrew42
                        This is war, baby!

                        )))))) But what are you? Unlike you kid, I was in a war, not a clown here to tell you what war is.
                        Quote: andrew42
                        And if "everyone was shot", then as Jack Sparrow said, "where does the news come from then?"

                        And then everything fell into place. Boy go watch your fantasy and do not go into the conversation of an adult uncle.
                      3. andrew42
                        andrew42 29 November 2019 10: 21
                        0
                        Dear uncle who was at war! For the "kid" and "little boy" you got really excited. I'm about to change my 50-tinnik, but I'm not going to brag about where I've been and what I've seen. And you, before scrambling on categorical labels, think about what you are writing.
              2. Nasrat
                Nasrat 13 November 2019 10: 02
                -5
                But, before these events, Russian engineers built TransSib .. !!! 8,8 thousand km. without helicopters and all-terrain vehicles !!! When did BAM begin to build there ?????? and what is its length ??? and its length is 500 km shorter than the transiba !!! despite the fact that during the construction of BAM they used this very transib ....
                By the way, since the railways:
                In the peaceful years under Stalin, railways in Russia increased annually by only 900–950 kilometers. While under Nicholas II, even in the most difficult war years of the First World War, 2000 km of railways were built per year!
                1. Alexander Suvorov
                  Alexander Suvorov 13 November 2019 10: 19
                  +1
                  NasRat (Evlampy Spiridonovich)
                  In the peaceful years under Stalin, railways in Russia increased annually by only 900–950 kilometers. While under Nicholas II, even in the most difficult war years of the First World War, 2000 km of railways were built per year!
                  Another nonsense of the patient.
                  Maybe the answer lies in the fact that there was no such need to build railways so much? More precisely it was, but there were other priorities. How many factories were built under Nicholas and how many under Stalin?
                  How many engines were produced under Nicholas? You can not puff - ZERO!
                  How many planes, tanks, rifles, machine guns were produced in the Republic of Ingushetia and how many in the USSR?

                  Another bunch crunch?
                  1. Nasrat
                    Nasrat 13 November 2019 10: 35
                    -4
                    Funny guys ... And in 1985, you compared your performance with 1913 ... Why do you think that by the 40s, tsarist engineers hadn’t built the same thing, but I’m sure more, only without repression?
                    He provided Nicolas with a submarine fleet, by the way, many of the weapons that fought at the beginning of the Second World War - were still of royal production ..
                    here is the 1913 turbine of the year of manufacture at the Putilov plant ... and when did such turbines begin to be made in the USSR?
                    1. Alexander Suvorov
                      Alexander Suvorov 13 November 2019 10: 48
                      +3
                      NasRat (Evlampy Spiridonovich)
                      Funny guys ... You also compared your performance in 1985 with 1913 ...
                      This happened with the traitor Khrushchev!
                      Why do you think that by the 40s, tsarist engineers had not built the same thing, and I am sure more, only without repression?
                      Because they did not do this by 1913. There was no industry in the Republic of Ingushetia from the word at all.
                      here is the 1913 turbine of the year of manufacture at the Putilov plant ... and when did such turbines begin to be made in the USSR?

                      You have one disgusting trait among the bakers, you take as an example some kind of crap that existed almost in a single copy and start with it it rushes like a written bag, but in fact it’s a complete zilch.

                      I repeat for those who are on an armored train. How many factories were built under Nicholas II and how many under Stalin? How many airplanes, tanks, guns, rifles, machine guns, shells, ammunition and other equipment were fired with one and the other?

                      Why the rear under Stalin worked as a single mechanism and ultimately ensured victory over the united Europe, and the rear under Nikolashka decomposed and rotted like a rotten tree and could not stand the war with Germany and Austria-Hungary, the Turks can hardly be counted. And for Germany, the eastern front was secondary, all the main battles took place on the western front.
                      1. tesser
                        tesser 13 November 2019 14: 21
                        -3
                        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
                        How many aircraft and tanks are produced

                        When Nicholas? )))
                        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
                        How many factories were built under Nicholas II

                        About 40 thousand, EMNIP.
                        In fact, you are partly right. If compared to 1913 there are no special changes in relative indicators, then there really is growth from the level of the beginning of the 20s, it is difficult to deny this. On the other hand, the structure of the economy compared with the same 1913 became much worse (more militarized), so the situation with consumer goods, frankly, is awful.
                      2. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 13 November 2019 17: 26
                        +1
                        Quote: tesser
                        How many factories were built under Nicholas II
                        About 40 thousand

                        Those. for 22 years? The Bolsheviks were proud of nine thousand for three five-year periods - one plant / factory per day. When the king, it turns out, 5 plants were introduced per day? Phenomenally !!! Das ist fiction!
                        I wonder why did the Bolsheviks need industrialization at all? Moreover, in order to "transform our country from an agrarian into an industrial one, capable of producing the necessary equipment on its own" "to protect it from becoming an appendage of world capitalism" (I.V. Stalin)
                      3. tesser
                        tesser 13 November 2019 18: 00
                        -5
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Those. for 22 years?

                        Not sure exactly for 22. This is the number of factories for 1913.
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Moreover, with the aim of "transforming our country from an agrarian into an industrial one, capable of producing the necessary equipment on its own"

                        Comrade Stalin needed tanks, and these NEPmans produced primus tanks at best.
                      4. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 14 November 2019 06: 02
                        +3
                        The question was: how many factories were built under Nicholas II, and not how many were built during it. As of 01.01.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX, there were over nine thousand enterprises in the USSR. Especially with artels making primus. This is not counting private entrepreneurs: tailor shoemakers, dental technicians, etc.
                      5. tesser
                        tesser 14 November 2019 07: 50
                        -1
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Especially with artels making primus. This is not counting private entrepreneurs

                        Yes, private entrepreneurs, red artisans. Something is recalled.
                    2. Mordvin 3
                      Mordvin 3 13 November 2019 22: 15
                      +2
                      Quote: Nasr
                      here is the 1913 turbine of the year of manufacture at the Putilov plant ... and when did such turbines begin to be made in the USSR?

                      So they did. And where is he, the Kirov plant?
                    3. Edvid
                      Edvid 16 November 2019 23: 44
                      0
                      An example of the history of the development of Primorye. What struck me the most was that we knew about the gas field in Artem a hundred years ago. And nothing has changed...
                      Primorsky Territory, the city of Artem, the history of mines.
                      gazeta-vibor.ru
                      EVERYTHING BEGINS FROM THE OLD
                      In 1891-1896 During the construction of the railway in the Khurchizy (Coal) region, outcrops of coal seams were noticed. And the first to start building low-power mines and pits in 1898 was businessman Alexey Startsev.
                      Alexei Dmitrievich established tea trade from China, was engaged in building in Vladivostok and on the island of Putyatin, where he founded the Rodnoe estate from scratch. His sons Dmitry, Alexander and Nikolai worthily continued the work of his father. Among many other things, they were engaged in the development of coal mining.
                      Let us turn to the historical essay, which was later written by Aleksei Aleksandrovich Startsev and Aleksei Viktorovich Shereshev.
                      “In 1909, advancing along the Suchan railway, the Starets prospectors discovered coal deposits outside the village of Uglovoye. An application has been made. Startsev separated four mine branches ... right behind the village, three on the north side of the road, one on the south. In the years 1910-1911, the elders ’branches from the main reservoir were leased to Leonid Leopoldovich Artz. This Pole left a good memory in Corner, having built a school and a church. ”
                      In total, there were five mines on the territory of the Corner.
                      And then the Startsevs did not run away from the Soviet regime. They believed Lenin, who said that "the NEP is seriously and for a long time." They knew that the words of Stalin had already been heard: "Comrade Lenin said that the NEP is for a long time, but he never said that forever." But they tried to get coal mines working. Here is what Dmitry Alekseevich wrote in his autobiography: “In 1924, with the approval of the Primorsky Mining Administration, I started to build a major large mine at Uglovsky 1st mine with an output capacity of 25 coal wagons per day. Pumps threw up to 5000 buckets of water per hour ... Working conditions were very difficult, but we laid a railway line of 1,5 versts. At this time, the liquidation of the private coal industry began. Many mines stood up ...
                      Officials came with great power, but no responsibility. And in the fall a typhoon of terrible power passed ... ”
                      These lines affirmed life. The brothers proposed a project for the construction of a power plant with a capacity of 15000 kilowatts of gas to reduce the cost of electric energy itself, presented plans for the construction of a large chemical plant with the production of gasoline, creosote, engine oils. There were many other practical suggestions. During the coal crisis in the winter of 1929-1930, Dmitry proposed to develop new deposits. And the Mining Department agreed with him, but the court sentenced him to two years in prison, which he replaced with expulsion from the region. Then he was ranked as a pest.
                2. fighter angel
                  fighter angel 13 November 2019 14: 30
                  +2
                  NasRat.
                  Well, how many common people were put "tsar-father" and others like him at the construction site of the Trans-Siberian Railway?
                  And at other railway sites?
                  How many bones are there under each railroad tie?
                  And how many were shot, sent to hard labor for "riots" at the construction site?
                  1. Nasrat
                    Nasrat 13 November 2019 15: 45
                    +1
                    . According to V.F. Borzunov, from different years from 3,6 thousand to 15 thousand workers from European Russia, Central Siberian from 3 thousand to 11 thousand, Transbaikal from 2,5, were involved in the construction of the West Siberian section of the highway 4,5 thousand to 1891 thousand. A significant part of the builders were exiled prisoners and soldiers. The continuous replenishment of labor in the construction of the highway was due to the attraction of Siberian peasants and townspeople and the influx of peasants and philistines from European Russia. In total, at the construction of the Trans-Siberian Railway in 9600, at the beginning of construction, there were 1895 people, and in 1896-84, in the midst of construction work. - 89-1904 thousand, in 5300, at the final stage - only 1910 people. On the construction of the Amur Railway in 20, XNUMX thousand people worked.
                    1. fighter angel
                      fighter angel 13 November 2019 16: 23
                      -1
                      NasRat.
                      Have you tried to read my question carefully? No?
                      I’m not talking about how much worked on the construction of the site,
                      but about how many people were killed and killed there, from injuries, from diseases, epidemics, unbearable living and working conditions ... How many were killed during the "suppression of riots", and then convicted and exiled ...
                      What is V.F.Borzunov writing / saying about this?
                3. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 13 November 2019 19: 47
                  0
                  Quote: Nasr
                  While under Nicholas II, even in the most difficult war years of the First World War, 2000 km of railways were built per year!

                  On the bones of the German grenadiers.
              3. RUSS
                RUSS 13 November 2019 11: 48
                0
                Quote: Nasr
                Uncle, all Soviet industrialization, all the military-industrial complex - was designed and created by an American Albert Kahn with his small company from Detroit Albert Kahn Associates Incorporated ..
                Who do you think designed and built (and where did he build !?) Stalingrad, Chelyabinsk tractor plants? I will answer you - the Americans, and built in America, the Stalingrad Tractor - the Americans built in 6 months !!! ...
                Why ask the Americans build? But because there were no domestic specialists at that time !!! Someone against the wall, and who managed to run abroad !! They are proletarians ...

                Soviet hydroelectric power plants were also built with the help of American engineers
              4. zenion
                zenion 13 November 2019 15: 52
                +5
                Just in America, the Great Depression began and hundreds of thousands of professional workers and thousands of engineers were left without work. If not for the USSR, they would have died of hunger. And the USSR saved not only them, not free of charge, but also their families. Many of the engineers, having become accustomed to well, called their families to themselves and remained forever in the USSR. I know because I lived in Sverdlovsk and was familiar with some who continued to work, both in design bureaus and in workshops.
              5. Sugar Honeyovich
                Sugar Honeyovich 13 November 2019 17: 16
                +2
                Quote: Nasr
                all Soviet industrialization, all the military-industrial complex - the American designed and created

                Quote: Nasr
                But because there were no domestic specialists at that time !!!

                According to one of these Americans, D. Scott: "three or four hundred German and American specialists" participated in the construction of the Magnitogorsk Metallurgical Combine, of which by 1936 "only about half a dozen remained." This is from a total collective of "a quarter of a million" people. He repeatedly mentions "old" Russian engineers.
                For comparison - in 1 MV for the purchase of VINTOVOK (not the construction of factories!), The government of N. A. Romanov brought Americans nearly 2 BILLION in gold. The Americans successfully failed the order ... They did not return the money.
              6. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 13 November 2019 19: 08
                +1
                Quote: Nasr
                Uncle, all Soviet industrialization, all the military-industrial complex - was designed and created by an American Albert Kahn with his small company from Detroit Albert Kahn Associates Incorporated ..

                Spiridonych, have you completely collapsed from oak? Ah, Alik Kann built everything! And he designed industrialization. No, Spiridonych, you definitely need to drink bromine.
            2. Doctor
              Doctor 13 November 2019 12: 19
              -4
              Well, the fact that some designers were locked in sharazhki was for their own good.

              In one phrase, the whole essence of Stalinism.
            3. tesser
              tesser 13 November 2019 13: 42
              -7
              Quote: Alexander Suvorov
              who do you think developed the ZIS-3,

              The artillery unit L. A. Bishlyak, K. M. Sokolovsky and K. I. Lipnitsky, 1902. Grabin - gun carriage, alteration for current technological processes.
              Quote: Alexander Suvorov
              T-34

              A group of enemies of the people. Gypsies, dick, etc.
              Quote: Alexander Suvorov
              HF

              A group of Leningrad comrades, the main ones, did not seem to be shot. In addition to the customer - the enemy of the people of Pavlov.
              Quote: Alexander Suvorov
              La 5/7, Yak 1/7/9/3, who

              Enemy of the people of Polycarp.
              Quote: Alexander Suvorov
              Well, the fact that some designers were locked in sharazhki was for their own good.

              + + + + + +
              drinks
              Particularly lucky were those who were shot.
              Quote: Alexander Suvorov
              and the waste of public money on empty projects also took place.

              Naturally, the guard is better to know.
              Quote: Alexander Suvorov
              spies can and will hunt, so it’s very wise to hide him in a sharazhka during the war.

              What other spies? He is a spy himself. And the Trotskyist.
              Quote: Alexander Suvorov
              Grabin, at his own peril and risk, in violation of all conceivable instructions, put his ZIS-3 on stream

              Grabin, with all due respect, loved to lie. He made this gun on the instructions of Kulik, who, by the way, was also an enemy of the people.
              Quote: Alexander Suvorov
              there would be no flight into space

              It never was. The Queen and Glushko were not shot purely by oversight.
              Quote: Alexander Suvorov
              and there wouldn’t be a nuclear bomb either!

              Useful and stolen.
              1. Nasrat
                Nasrat 13 November 2019 14: 07
                -10
                It is useless to write ... adherents cannot see the real picture ... they hammered it all their lives and suddenly this is what you write about !!! this is the collapse of their whole life ...
              2. fighter angel
                fighter angel 13 November 2019 15: 47
                +2
                tesser

                "... who, according to you, developed
                .... La 5/7, Yak 1/7/9/3,
                Enemy of the people Polikarpov ... "

                A masterpiece! You have surpassed yourself!
                Try to heal with electricity ...
                1. tesser
                  tesser 13 November 2019 15: 54
                  -3
                  Quote: fighter angel
                  A masterpiece! You have surpassed yourself!

                  In your reality, did the Jacob line and the Laggov line have nothing to do with the Polikarpovsky Design Bureau?
                  1. fighter angel
                    fighter angel 13 November 2019 16: 04
                    +1
                    Why not Mozhaisky?
                    Everything went from him! Ashnik back in 1886 ....
      2. RUSS
        RUSS 13 November 2019 09: 20
        -3
        The author writes that Stalin is a leader, a priest, and probably it is, and Stalin is an idol and a god for neopagans and idolaters.
        1. brat07
          brat07 17 November 2019 19: 13
          0
          Quote: RUSS
          The author writes that Stalin is a leader, a priest, and probably it is, and Stalin is an idol and a god for neopagans and idolaters.

          And here's what I "dug" on the Internet:
          Everyone knows that from the words “he accepted the country with a plow, but left it with a nuclear bomb,” Winston Churchill did not say anything about Joseph Stalin. But what did he really say?

          Part one:
          “I have only one goal - to destroy Hitler, and this greatly simplifies my life. If Hitler invaded hell, I would at least speak favorably about Satan in the House of Commons. ”

          Winston Churchill in a conversation with his secretary Colville on June 21, 1941, according to which the phrase was quoted in Churchill's memoirs “World War II” (vol. 3, pr. 1, chap. 20). For these memoirs, Churchill, by the way, received the 1953 Nobel Prize in literature.

          Part two:
          “Russia was very lucky that when it was agonized, it was led by such a tough military leader. This is an outstanding personality, suitable for harsh times. A man is inexhaustibly bold, domineering, direct in actions and even rude in his statements ... However, he retained a sense of humor, which is very important for all people and nations, and especially for big people and great nations. Stalin also impressed me with his cool-blooded wisdom, in the complete absence of any illusions. ”

          Winston Churchill, speech in the British Parliament on September 8, 1942 following a visit to Moscow.

          A couple of Churchill quotes that I personally copied from the original documents at the Pobedny 1945 exhibition, which was held April 20 - June 30, 2005 at the Exhibition Hall of the Federal Archives. By the way, documents from eight archives of the country were presented at the exhibition, including documents that were actually closed to researchers, such as the Central Archive of the FSB or the archive of the Federal Security Service of Russia.

          Here is Churchill's telegram-congratulations on Stalin's birthday: "Your life is precious not only for your country, which you saved, but also for the cause of friendship between Soviet Russia and Great Britain and even the entire English-speaking world, friendship on which the future happiness of mankind depends. ".

          And this is what he wrote on his portrait, presented to Joseph Vissarionovich: “Marshal and Prime Minister Stalin, who, heading the Russian army and the Soviet government, defeated the main forces of the German military machine and helped all the united nations open the way to peace, justice and freedom. friend of Winston S. Churchill. "
    3. sniperino
      sniperino 13 November 2019 11: 48
      -1
      Quote: Dalny V
      If it was even less blown away by the "civilization of the USSR / Rus and the enemies of their Anglo-Saxons"
      This is only one part of the design. Against the backdrop of a false choice (the USSR - the enslavement of the Anglo-Saxons), a quasi-problem is being drawn: our power is on the side of the Anglo-Saxons. If an ordinary man pulls such a pan over his head, he is unlikely to think about democratic transformations. The Ukrainian saucepan is structurally similar.
  2. Gardamir
    Gardamir 13 November 2019 06: 04
    +2
    Unexpected article.
    1. Uncle lee
      Uncle lee 13 November 2019 07: 02
      +8
      The cult of youth, education, strength and purity has been created.
      What now, unfortunately, no ...
      "Communism is the youth of the world,
      And to build it young "!
      1. Alexander Suvorov
        Alexander Suvorov 13 November 2019 08: 46
        +4
        Uncle Lee (Vladimir)
        "Communism is the youth of the world,

        And the battle continues again
        And the heart is anxious in the chest
        And Lenin is so young
        And young October is ahead ...

        I know the city will be
        I know the garden bloom
        When are such people
        In the Soviet country there is ...

        Wonderful poems and wonderful people were!
        How much dirt has been poured on Stalin for 66 years now, and he is becoming ever more alive!

        I recalled a joke. Reception at the US Embassy. At the reception, the American ambassador boasts to Molotov that there is a shaman in the United States who can revive people. Molotov listened and said that in the USSR there is a person capable of overtaking a plane.
        The next day, Khrushchev Molotov calls in and says, why are you spitting out about a man-plane?
        Molotov - well, let them first introduce their shaman.
        Khrushchev - and if present?
        Molotov - well, then we will ask him to revive someone.
        Khrushchev - and whom to revive?
        Molotov - well, for example, Stalin.
        Khrushchev - and if he revives ...?!
        Molotov - and then you are Nikita not only a plane, you will overtake a rocket!
  3. rusin
    rusin 13 November 2019 06: 18
    -16
    And in the photo, the diehard fighter against capitalism, Dzhugashvili (pseudonym Ironman) kisses the gift of the English king ... Samsonov, what are you shooting at!
    1. Same lech
      Same lech 13 November 2019 06: 29
      +11
      And in the photo, the diehard fighter against capitalism, Dzhugashvili (pseudonym Ironman) kisses the gift of the English king ...

      It depends on which side to look ...
      it is a symbol of the victory of the USSR over Nazi Germany in Stalingrad is not a sin to kiss him.
      By the way, the Red Army used the Lendlizovskaya American stew with pleasure, would you really call the Red Army fighters agents of the damned West.
      1. Ross xnumx
        Ross xnumx 13 November 2019 08: 17
        +2
        Quote: The same LYOKHA
        By the way, the Red Army used the Lendlizovskaya American stew with pleasure, would you really call the Red Army fighters agents of the damned West.

        good
        Then what are the facts?
    2. Alexander Suvorov
      Alexander Suvorov 13 November 2019 08: 15
      +4
      Rusin Today, 06:18
      And in the photo, the diehard fighter against capitalism, Dzhugashvili (pseudonym Ironman) kisses the gift of the English king.
      To begin with, they would ask who and why this gift was made. We gave more than a million lives of our fathers and grandfathers for Stalingrad, and the English king, admiring the courage of our soldiers, made this gift to the defenders of Stalingrad.
      By the way, now this gift can be seen in the museum-panorama of the Battle of Stalingrad. Personally, I saw him.
  4. vomag
    vomag 13 November 2019 06: 19
    +1
    It seems to be a good article .. Stalin is Stalin now ... he and that .. he and that! Stalin did not hold government posts from 1924 to July 19, 1941! What era of Stalin? It was a country of soviets! That's what they are trying to hide from YOU .. what everything was decided by a simple PEOPLE by direct vote ....
    1. Procopius Nesterov
      Procopius Nesterov 13 November 2019 06: 36
      +4
      And how many parties participated in the election?
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 13 November 2019 07: 29
        -11
        Quote: Procopius Nesterov
        And how many parties participated in the election?

        One, of course, is the GREAT merit of the "society of creation, knowledge, service." yes

        The people were saved not only from the torment of choice (and this is the most severe torment), but even from the need to think: they knew everything, they already thought out and chose a caring party!

        But the people had enormous rights: to admire the care and wisdom of the party, to build, serve, and know their place.
        1. Boris55
          Boris55 13 November 2019 08: 31
          +1
          Quote: Olgovich
          But the people had enormous rights: to admire the care and wisdom of the party, to build, serve, and know their place.

          After Khrushchev removed the people from control, that was the only thing left ...

          In order to choose something, you must have an idea of ​​what we choose and for what. Do we have to know all the subtleties of management? Are we obligated to be economists? Are we obligated to be financiers? Are we required to be lawyers? What else are we obliged to be and how many institutions must we complete in order to understand everything? Yes, and do we need it? If everyone becomes economists, financiers, lawyers, then who will work - come in large numbers?

          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 13 November 2019 12: 14
            -1
            Quote: Boris55
            After Khrushchev suspended people from management, only that remained ...

            Tell HOW people ruled BEFORE Khrushchev
            [quote = Boris55] Do we have to know all the subtleties of control? Are we obligated to be economists? Are we obligated to be financiers? Are we obligated to be lawyers? What else are we obliged to be and how many institutions must we complete to understand everything? Yes, and do we need it? If everyone becomes economists, financiers, lawyers, then who will work - come along? [/ Quote]
            Tell WHO must to be them? Who owes and on what basis? yes
            1. Gardamir
              Gardamir 13 November 2019 13: 17
              +2
              Who owes
              Well, let's put now all these artists and athletes, in the Duma, too, do not control anything.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 13 November 2019 13: 54
                -6
                Quote: Gardamir
                Well, let's put now all these artists and athletes, in the Duma, too, do not control anything.

                they CAN do it.
                Then no. Even theoretically.
        2. SOVIET UNION 2
          SOVIET UNION 2 13 November 2019 08: 58
          +8
          There was one idea. And she showed her worth. A lot of parties? Party is what? Is a beer lovers party a party? Is a party of animal lovers a party? In modern Russia, how many parties? What kind of government do they care about? There was more than one presidential candidate in the last election. So what? Was there a choice or not? What rights do people have today? Where is his place? Have a bucket? How today are the labor achievements of simple hard workers? Do they compose songs and make films about them?
          1. Procopius Nesterov
            Procopius Nesterov 13 November 2019 12: 18
            -5
            So you can leave one batch of United Russia? How did you get that people from the bucket? Judge for yourself?
            People do not vote for the Communist Party. Why did you think that everyone thinks like you and there should be one party without a choice.
            1. Gardamir
              Gardamir 13 November 2019 13: 18
              +1
              What makes you think that people do not vote for the Communist Party.
              Only rearranged in places, but how beautiful.
            2. SOVIET UNION 2
              SOVIET UNION 2 13 November 2019 17: 29
              0
              Well, if the servants of the people drive luxury cars and live in chic mansions! It’s scary to imagine how then people live well! Salary from one to several minimum wages in units? Everyone drives foreign cars for at least a million? And who then rides in rusty gazelles? People still drive cars of the 70s. Is it probably expensive rarities? Or is it just that I'm so stupid and impoverished? All the normal ones are already driving foreign cars. But the basins flicker even in Moscow. This is also rogue people ride them? If our police travel from sevens to priors, are they rogue too? Or is this state so impoverished that even the police cannot provide foreign cars? And optimization of medicine, when all medical services are driven into a large city. And as for one party, so it is. And one. This is a lot of moneybags. And she will crush competitors.
              1. Procopius Nesterov
                Procopius Nesterov 13 November 2019 18: 37
                0
                Previously, officials did not ride bicycles either.
                As for cars from people, last year 1 million 800 thousand new cars were bought. In the USSR, 1985 million 1 thousand were produced in 300. We divide this figure by 2 since the USSR had 2 times the population, it turns out 650 thousand .That is, now people in Russia can afford to buy 3 times more new cars.
          2. Olgovich
            Olgovich 13 November 2019 12: 57
            -2
            Quote: SOVIET UNION 2
            How today are the labor achievements of simple hard workers? Do they compose songs and make films about them?

            The father-in-law worked for 45 years as a driver on a postal machine of the Ministry of Communications (and this in the rain, in the snow, at night) - die, but deliver.

            left: foot of letters, "drummer ST", medal VT. All. He left NOTHING for the children: no apartment, no car, no money. All.
            1. SOVIET UNION 2
              SOVIET UNION 2 13 November 2019 17: 32
              0
              Today, the driver of the postal machine will also not leave the apartment, the car and the means. But the song about him will not be added up and the film will not be shot, and his work will remain completely without attention. Today they look at him through the void.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 14 November 2019 10: 08
                0
                Quote: SOVIET UNION 2
                Today, the driver of the postal machine will also not leave the apartment, the car and the means.

                The car is available to almost everyone today.
                And to earn today, having a working profession, you can, have ALL the opportunities.

                Quote: SOVIET UNION 2
                But the song about him will not be added up and the film will not be shot, and his work will remain completely without attention. Today they look at him through the void.

                I have three award-winning crunch vases, certificates, badge.
                And?
                WHY do they give me money?
      2. Boris55
        Boris55 13 November 2019 08: 15
        +1
        Quote: Procopius Nesterov
        And how many parties participated in the election?

        Any party strives for omnipotence, and its leader strives for sole domination.
        The Soviets of People's Deputies included communists, and there were non-partisans. All of them were chosen by labor collectives.

      3. vomag
        vomag 14 November 2019 13: 29
        0
        Excuse me, but can I ask what elections? where is the election? who is the election? where are the elections? what year did the elections take place?
  5. Obi-Wan Kenobi
    Obi-Wan Kenobi 13 November 2019 06: 26
    +3
    A WORD TO COMRADE STALIN
    ---------------------------
    It came without waiting for a call
    It came by itself - and not to restrain him ...
    Let me tell you this word,
    A simple word of my heart.
    That day has come. Deadlines are over.
    The earth again found its peace.
    Thank you for your high deed,
    For your hard work.
    Thank you for the years of testing
    You helped us withstand the struggle.
    We believed you so, Comrade Stalin,
    How, perhaps, they did not believe themselves.
    You were our stronghold and guarantee
    That the enemies do not get away from reckoning.
    Let me shake your hand tight
    Bow to the earth
    For your loyalty to the motherland,
    For your wisdom and for your honor,
    For the purity and truth of your life,
    For the fact that you are who you are.
    Thank you for the days of great tribulation
    You thought about us all in the Kremlin,
    For being with us everywhere
    Because you live on earth.
    21.12.1949
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 13 November 2019 07: 38
      -8
      Quote: Obi Wan Kenobi
      You thought about us all in the Kremlin,
      For being with us everywhere
      Because you live on earth.

      Exactly:

      Stalin!

      Favorite! You are a resident of my soul!

      I wanted to compare you with the prophet

      I could not compare you with the prophet.

      The prophet could not speak the truth! ..

      I wanted to compare you with the ocean,

      I could not compare you with the ocean!

      And in the ocean sometimes ships

      With open bottoms they are sitting aground ...

      I wanted to compare with the North Star,

      I wanted to compare you with the mountains,

      I could not compare you with the mountains!

      Of the mountains you are not equal to none -

      At each mountain, the peak is visible ...

      And I wanted to compare you with the sun,

      I could not compare you with the sun!

      Maybe the sun can sometimes change, -

      It shines only on clear days.

      Stalin burns like an eternal flame!
      .
      yes
      1936, D. Dzhabaev
      1. Alexander Suvorov
        Alexander Suvorov 13 November 2019 08: 22
        +4
        Olgovich (Andrey)
        And I wanted to compare you with the sun,
        I could not compare you with the sun!
        Maybe the sun can sometimes change, -
        It shines only on clear days.
        Stalin burns like an eternal flame !. yes
        1936, D. Dzhabaev
        For those who are especially stubborn, watch the newsreel of Joseph Stalin’s funeral. Or say that the terrible NKVDeshniki drove everyone out of the house and made them cry from grief from grief.

        No matter how you get hungry here, but for that generation, Stalin was really the FATHER OF THE PEOPLE! And your manure will sweep away from his grave. They will always remember him, but they will forget about you the very next day after your priests sing. Yes, and rightly so!
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 13 November 2019 10: 58
          -8
          Quote: Alexander Suvorov
          For those who are especially stubborn, watch the newsreel of Joseph Stalin’s funeral. Or say that the terrible NKVDeshniki drove everyone out of the house and made them cry from grief from grief.

          You ... didn’t like the poem ?! belay request

          You need to familiarize yourself with the voting results at the 20th Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union on the resolution "on the condemnation of the cult of personality.
          Voted "FOR" UNANIMOUSLY.

          Tens of thousands of monuments were demolished after millions of books were seized: WHERE are millions of demontrations, uprisings, etc.?
          Quote: Alexander Suvorov
          manure sweeps away from his grave.

          And before that? belay request
  6. andrewkor
    andrewkor 13 November 2019 06: 31
    +16
    My mother told me that ordinary people sincerely mourned the death of Joseph Vissarionovich and with fear awaited at that time that Enemies from the West would again unleash the War against the USSR.
    My relatives are from the bottom of Soviet society. Uncle, aunt, mother are orphans from Chelyabinsk, father and his brothers are fatherless, peasants from Kuzbass. Year of birth -1925 and younger. Uncle - military doctor in the Airborne Forces, officer, father - an ordinary front-line intelligence officer, both went through the war, both order bearers. The father became an officer - a tanker.
    Mom and aunt are nurses, uncles remained in the village to peasantry, all machine operators, visited them on vacation - well, very wealthy, by the standards of the 60s.
    For the sake of fairness, I would like to note that one of the brothers served time for "spikelets", but remained alive.
    The most negative memory is the queues for bread, when the "maize" was thrown off, I still remember the taste of bread with corn flour, a little sweetish.
    And then the notorious "stagnation" with the conquest of the Cosmos, BAM, when the future is predetermined, in the good sense of this concept!
    1. Van 16
      Van 16 13 November 2019 09: 10
      +1
      The same thing, and grandparents (and collectivization went through the war, it would seem darned dashing) treated Stalin with great respect. By the way, as with Beria, which I was surprised at the time, we were told something else about Beria, and they continue to tell us.
  7. Procopius Nesterov
    Procopius Nesterov 13 November 2019 06: 35
    -4
    The Communists have something with their heads. Emperor Stalin, sounds like the Secretary General of the CPSU, Nikolai II.
    Stalin secretary general. So would write the red secretary general.
    1. sergo1914
      sergo1914 13 November 2019 06: 47
      -4
      Quote: Procopius Nesterov
      The Communists have something with their heads.


      Right They not only eat it. And they say it by mouth. There are additional features. This opportunity offends some.
    2. Same lech
      Same lech 13 November 2019 06: 47
      +1
      The Communists have something with their heads.

      Real communists are idealistic romanticists ... usually divorced from the realities of life. smile
      Because the Communists of the USSR lost the decaying West.
      Recently I watched the argument of Platoshkin and Solovyov (laughed) ... it resembles the argument of a blind man with a deaf-mute. smile about which hand to hold a spoon for dinner.
    3. SOVIET UNION 2
      SOVIET UNION 2 13 November 2019 09: 08
      +2
      Everything is normal with the head. There was a Red Empire. Stalin really created the Empire, unlike the liberals. So no dissonance! But Putin is now called the king. And today we have a real kingdom. There is a higher class and a lower one. The higher can influence politics; the lower cannot. For the higher, its own laws; for the lower, others. One all the humanity of justice, the other all the severity of the law. One all the benefits, the other one duties. One tax incentive, the other state tax (for the right to live). One salary at the request, another salary at the minimum wage.
      1. Procopius Nesterov
        Procopius Nesterov 13 November 2019 12: 47
        -3
        You fantasize some garbage. Can you quote Lenin or Stalin that they are building the Empire?
        They also destroyed the Russian Empire, and created 15 states with the right to exit under the USSR constitution.
        1. SOVIET UNION 2
          SOVIET UNION 2 13 November 2019 17: 14
          +3
          The empire was in fact. And influenced half the world. hi
        2. Edvid
          Edvid 17 November 2019 00: 03
          +1
          Having seized power, the Bolsheviks began to distribute the territory of the empire. For example, the southern coast of the Caspian Sea-Iran, a number of territories of the Caucasus-Turkey ... They eliminated the provinces by dividing the country by national auls, generously endowing new republics with territories they did not belong to - take the same Kazakhstan ..
      2. sniperino
        sniperino 13 November 2019 13: 10
        -2
        Quote: SOVIET UNION 2
        There is a higher class and a lower one. The higher can influence politics; the lower cannot. For the higher, its own laws; for the lower, others. One all the humanity of justice, the other all the severity of the law. One all the benefits, the other one duties.
        I found out! Is this the USSR from about the mid 70s?
  8. DNS-a42
    DNS-a42 13 November 2019 06: 48
    +3
    The article does not tell anything interesting and informative about Stalin. Better read Stalin himself (complete works), that’s where the storehouse of knowledge is.
  9. Moskovit
    Moskovit 13 November 2019 07: 07
    +4
    Under Khrushchev, no matter how he was scolded, millions of Soviet people learned what hot water from the tap was, what a toilet was not on the street. Collective farmers began to receive money. They were able to move freely around the country. Punitive organs were driven under a bench. About the time of Stalin, sighing now is simply ridiculous. Nobody lived then, including Samsonov.
    1. Same lech
      Same lech 13 November 2019 07: 12
      +3
      Punitive organs were driven under a bench.

      Yeah ... if now they are driven out from under the shops in the sun, they will sober up with the dissenters from the heart ... 99 percent of the members of the forum will crawl for seditious thoughts against the government and the state along the stage in Magadan.
      So far, GDP does not allow them to roam.
      1. Moskovit
        Moskovit 13 November 2019 08: 03
        +7
        Yes, they themselves are now more profitable to sit on cash flows than chasing criminals.))

        On the other hand, I would not want the child to be splashed out with water.
        State planning and tight control over the implementation of state programs, the responsibility of officials and employees of bodies - this can be learned from the IVS.
      2. SOVIET UNION 2
        SOVIET UNION 2 13 November 2019 09: 20
        +2
        And under Stalin there was an article for seditious thoughts? Listen to anti-Stalinists, then there was an article for a joke about Stalin. and an article for wiping your ass with a portrait of Stalin from a newspaper. And how terrible it was then! Tolley business life in the 90s began to improve! From a good life they began to set iron doors. window grilles, high fences, video cameras. Protection has become not only the first persons of the state, but also everyone who has the loot! And how safe it has become on the streets since the 90s! Could easily shoot or kill in another way. How many videos have been shown about executions on the street, at home, near the house! And how many corpses were found in the forest belts! And irons and soldering irons for making money! Who doesn’t let the GDP go? If you stole millions, they did not find the crime. He borrowed a few thousand rubles from the bank, confiscation! Stunned life! Money loan at 2%! Not bad!? In a day! Great? So who doesn’t let anyone go for a walk? Funnels arrived at night !? And the collectors do not bother?
        1. Same lech
          Same lech 13 November 2019 09: 25
          +1
          The era of Stalin is gone ... what can I say ... do you really think people like Zakharchenko and Cherkalin should get freedom of action from GDP ... if there is no ideology in the state, it is difficult to demand loyal thoughts from the citizens to power ... each is left to his own devices. .. is it good or bad? ... I don’t know ... time will tell.
    2. Aviator_
      Aviator_ 13 November 2019 08: 16
      +4
      Clear. Without Khrushchev, no one would have let hot water into the tap. It was forbidden.
      1. Moskovit
        Moskovit 13 November 2019 08: 56
        +6
        Under Khrushchev, a massive relocation of people from barracks and huts began to more or less normal housing. Not everyone was lucky to be a general or an academician and live in stalin. There were ordinary workers who were also worthy of living in human conditions.
        1. Boris55
          Boris55 13 November 2019 09: 33
          +2
          Quote: Moskovit
          Under Khrushchev, a massive relocation of people from barracks and huts began to more or less normal housing.

          Even the people prefer more and more Stalin than Khrushchev.
          You forget that under Stalin, the country survived the most bloody war.
          1. evgen1221
            evgen1221 13 November 2019 11: 56
            +3
            And take an interest when the project of these same Khrushchevs was developed, be surprised. Under Stalin! With Khrushchev, mass construction began because the panel plants still had to be built and began to be built at the temporary detention center. And the name Khrushchev was simply due to the coincidence of time with the Khrushchev rule.
            1. Moskovit
              Moskovit 13 November 2019 15: 54
              +3
              Not so simple. There were projects. Experimental buildings were under construction, but it was Khrushchev who gave the ticket to life for mass construction and, in general, a change in the concept of new housing estates.
              It was he who embodied the principle of moving away from elitism to mass.
        2. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
          Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 13 November 2019 15: 06
          +3
          By the way, these were the achievements of the times of Stalin, just like many of the achievements of the early twentieth century were carried out not under Nikolai Alexandrovich Romanov-II, but under Lenin or later in the 1940-70s: either hands did not reach, then industry did not allow, then war then other problems ... By the way, both the BAM and the Moscow Metro are the developments of our pre-revolutionary Russian engineers, and were built, as you know, in the 1930s.
        3. Pavel57
          Pavel57 14 November 2019 13: 17
          0
          When Khrushchev was fired by his party comrades, a list of his sins was rolled out to him - and that’s it.
    3. RUSS
      RUSS 13 November 2019 09: 23
      -2
      Quote: Moskovit
      what is a toilet not on the street

      Now it’s hard to believe, but there wasn’t toilet paper in the USSR until 1968.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. RUSS
          RUSS 13 November 2019 11: 55
          0
          Quote: Alexander Suvorov
          built DneproGES and

          the legendary giant dam, which became a symbol of Soviet industrialization - Dneproges - was mainly built by the Americans. In particular, five unusually powerful generators were built by General Motors. They say that while the station was being built, construction manager Alexander Winter turned gray in the literal sense of the word. The well-known power engineer could not reconcile with the negligence and drunkenness of the Soviet workers.
          At the time of the development of the Dneproges project, there was no experience in the construction of large hydrotechnical facilities either in the Soviet Union or in Europe. He went to America for him. So, the creators of the Zaporizhzhya hydroelectric power plant got acquainted with Hugh Cooper, the future consultant for the construction of the first hydroelectric station on the Dnieper and the first foreign citizen awarded the Order of the Red Banner of Labor (another 5 US specialists involved in the construction received the same award). The practical experience of the American military engineer obtained in the construction of hydropower plants in the Mississippi and Niagara significantly helped in the construction of the largest facility of the first Soviet five-year plan. In addition to a significant contribution to the technical equipment of the Dnieper Hydroelectric Power Station (it was in the United States that turbines were built to order for a future hydroelectric power station), American experts proposed to provide for the project to use a dam for rail traffic. At first it was about the railway, but in the end only a branch was built for the movement of the tram, which went along the dam until the war.

          In the appointment of Cooper (by the way - a self-taught engineer) as the chief consultant of Dneprostroy, the decisive role was played directly by Stalin, who gave him preference over the German company Siemens AG for political reasons.
          About five hundred enterprises in the USSR were built by the American company of industrial architect Albert Kahn. In order to hide the participation of foreign specialists and not emphasize their own personnel helplessness, all foreign firms were renamed in the Soviet way. In particular, Kan’s enterprise was called “Gosproektstroy”.
          1. maden.usmanow
            maden.usmanow 15 November 2019 01: 25
            -1
            That's how bad you are. They took and destroyed all the Soviet agitations that the States were the country of the 3rd world. Before WWII
      2. VeteranVSSSR
        VeteranVSSSR 13 November 2019 23: 38
        0
        And ballpoint pens were the machinations of imperialism ...
    4. boriz
      boriz 13 November 2019 12: 08
      +3
      The war was not over yet, Stalin sent Mikoyan to France to study the experience of large-scale housing construction, purchase equipment for DSC, then they designed and built DSC and set up the production of their equipment. Khrushchev came to the ready, with him the process ended. But he screwed him up. What Stalin saw at home, we can assess the "Stalin". Khrushchev relegated Stalin's plans to Khrushchevs. For whatever he took, he ruined and ruined everything.
      As for the repressions, during the years of repression Khrushchev was the most bloodthirsty customer of additional quotas for executions.
      1. tesser
        tesser 13 November 2019 14: 42
        -6
        Quote: boriz
        What Stalin saw at home, we can assess the "Stalin". Khrushchev relegated Stalin's plans to Khrushchevs.

        Stalinki by panel-frame construction? Strong.
  10. apro
    apro 13 November 2019 07: 25
    +2
    Creating a new type of society is not a quick process .. especially when devastation alternates with war. IV Stalin was able to formulate. But the creation of an economic base for the country's independence dragged on resources plus military danger ..
  11. Mcar
    Mcar 13 November 2019 07: 29
    +5
    The article is good, but not without cliches. For instance:
    ... hard work for a small reward (for example, on collective farms).


    For example, on collective farms, depending on the region, the norm of workdays was from 60 to 100. If I am not mistaken, it was only slightly raised during the war.

    To understand what a workday is. This is not from morning to evening, and not 8 hours, as in a factory. A workday is a certain amount of work, like a chord system. Those. sow a certain amount of grain, or mow a certain amount of hay, or plow a certain amount of arable land, or ... in short, do a certain amount of work. And how much you will do is your business. You can pull at least all day, but you can do in half a day. And how else we had drummers doing 400-700 workdays per year, where 365 days are known.

    Above the norm no one could force to do. They could only entreat, persuade in strada, relying on sayings and proverbs de feeds one day a year, etc.

    Oil painting!
    Some did their 100 workdays (maybe 50 days), and then they went about their business all year, for example, they sat in the bazaar - they traded surpluses of personal plots. And were considered the builders of communism. Naturally, they received a little, but compensated outside the collective farm work, with earnings.
    Others did 500 or more workdays and, in addition to receiving well, they also had vouchers to the southern seas, valuable and scarce items, as well as simply large cash bonuses. And how else to explain, such a fact that in the country of the Soviets there were collective farmers who gave the army a tank or plane bought for their savings. And accumulated in just 10-12 years.
    1. Aviator_
      Aviator_ 13 November 2019 08: 19
      +4
      About workdays is absolutely true. Here was such a collective farmer - Ferapont Golovaty. So he bought a plane at his own expense and handed it to the Air Force. And the artists of the Bolshoi Theater were dumped on the plane.
      1. SOVIET UNION 2
        SOVIET UNION 2 13 November 2019 09: 23
        +3
        I don’t imagine today a worker buying a tank or plane for the army. And I don’t even imagine a businessman. And oh, horror! I can’t imagine an oligarch giving a tank, plane or ship as a gift to the Ministry of Defense! winked
        1. boriz
          boriz 13 November 2019 14: 45
          +5
          It’s easier to imagine an oligarch who has stolen money from orders from MOs for more than one tank, plane or ship.
      2. bober1982
        bober1982 13 November 2019 09: 27
        +5
        Quote: Aviator_
        And the artists of the Bolshoi Theater were dumped on the plane.

        Wanting to help the Red Army defeat the enemy faster, I deposited (1942) at the cash desk of the State Bank in cash all my personal savings in the amount of 273 thousand rubles. I ask you to build two combat aircraft.
        Priest of the Assumption Church Vladimir Aleksandrovich Stefanov.
        Thank you, Vladimir Alexandrovich. Accept my greetings.
        I.Stalin
        1. Aviator_
          Aviator_ 13 November 2019 19: 32
          0
          A good example of how priests lived in the Stalin era - because of their well-being, neither the Bolshoi artists, nor individual collective farmers could keep up with them.
          1. bober1982
            bober1982 13 November 2019 20: 12
            +2
            Quote: Aviator_
            A good example of how priests lived in the Stalin era

            What do you want, Stalin still studied at the theological seminary, by the way the collective farmers also lived well, so it turns out that if they could afford to build a couple of planes on personal savings.
            By the way, during the war years, about 2,5 thousand aircraft, almost a dozen submarines and many thousands of tanks were built with donations from Soviet citizens.
            1. Aviator_
              Aviator_ 13 November 2019 21: 29
              +1
              That’s all right, but your example of using donations from Soviet citizens is all the money, and the collective farmer Golovaty and a particular priest are one-time donations from each of them.
    2. rocket757
      rocket757 13 November 2019 08: 25
      +1
      Just remember that nothing is given for nothing at all! And a completely new one, such as the state of the Workers and Peasants, did not fit into the reality surrounding it and had really huge, negative, terrible pressure from all sides!
      I don’t know what really was not enough for the implementation, continuation of the outstanding idea of ​​building a more equitable state, but the fact that the HR was decided by all is the most likely answer.
    3. Moskovit
      Moskovit 13 November 2019 09: 49
      +5
      And now you don’t want to work for workdays? If they are so beautiful
      1. Mcar
        Mcar 13 November 2019 10: 15
        -2
        Quote: Moskovit
        And now you don’t want to work for workdays? If they are so beautiful

        Workdays, as a measure of labor, are still used all over the world in areas with hardly predictable results. For example, in gold mining.

        This is the time. Secondly, only those who dream of the parasite's lifestyle are afraid of workdays. Such were in the Union. What to do, just do nothing is about them. In general, people are afraid of work, not quite people - creatures. To take more and better from society, and give less or worse is the motto of humus, which is mistakenly called people.

        I would like that time, those conditions, that system, those people, that attitude to work to come in our time.
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 13 November 2019 13: 07
          -1
          Quote: McAr
          Workdays, as a measure of labor, are still used all over the world in areas with hardly predictable results. for instancein gold mining.

          Yeah, on the collective farms GOLD was mined. lol

          And on the same NEIGHBORHOOD field, where the same peasant worked, but in the State Farm, they also put such "golden" labor poles? fool
          1. Mcar
            Mcar 13 November 2019 14: 01
            +2
            Quote: Olgovich
            Quote: McAr
            Workdays, as a measure of labor, are still used all over the world in areas with hardly predictable results. for instancein gold mining.

            Yeah, on the collective farms GOLD was mined. lol

            And on the same NEIGHBORHOOD field, where the same peasant worked, but in the State Farm, they also put such "golden" labor poles? fool

            Have you just begun to learn the Russian language or in childhood iodine was malnourished? If the latter sympathize - cretinism is not treated.

            Once again for the mentally retarded.
            When an artel is about to wash gold, the whole season in the stick statements. But the payment at the end of the work. Why is that? Yes, because it is not known how much gold will get washed. It was exactly the same on collective farms. In advance, i.e. in winter, no one can say exactly what crop will be harvested by autumn. Therefore, sticks, and therefore workdays. Now it’s clear to a creature with a defective brain?
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 14 November 2019 10: 39
              0
              Quote: McAr
              Have you just begun to learn the Russian language or in childhood iodine was malnourished? If the latter sympathize - cretinism is not treated.

              I read the comment and understandyes
              Quote: McAr
              Once again for the mentally retarded.

              lol
              Quote: McAr
              When an artel is about to wash gold, the whole season in the stick statements. But the payment at the end of the work. Why is that? Yes, because it is not known how much gold will get washed. It was exactly the same on collective farms. In advance, i.e. in winter, no one can say exactly what crop will be harvested by autumn. Therefore, sticks, and therefore workdays.

              On the collective farm, the cowgirl knee-deep in shit and the clerks with bookkeepers in the office received the same workday.
              Moreover, the cattleman could still not get it. Like a lumberjack who did not comply with the cubes. Dumb leveling.
              Therefore, they did not want to work there and stole everything that was possible.

              In an artel, the opposite is true.
              now
              Quote: McAr
              is it clear to a creature with a defective brain?
              lol
              1. Foul skeptic
                Foul skeptic 14 November 2019 15: 03
                0
                On the collective farm, the cowgirl knee-deep in shit and the clerks with bookkeepers in the office received the same workday. Moreover, the cattleman could still not get it. Like a lumberjack who did not comply with the cubes. Dumb leveling

                What is egalitarianism? If:
                1) Depending on the efforts made, and therefore the annual result obtained, not one and the same amount of natural product could be obtained for a workday.
                2) Depending on the specialization of the collective farm, the rate of output per unit of manufactured products also differed, since different agricultural crops require different investments of labor.
                3) Workdays were multiplied by coefficients, depending on the group of quotes by type of work.
                1. tesser
                  tesser 14 November 2019 17: 43
                  +1
                  Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                  Workdays were multiplied by coefficients, depending on the group of quotes by type of work.

                  As far as I know, it was a bit the other way around (that is, maybe you meant it, but poorly formulated it). Payment (with food) for the workday was the same. But more qualified jobs could "cost" in workdays with increasing coefficients, a day for two, etc.
                  Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                  Depending on the specialization of the collective farm, the rate of output per unit of output also differed

                  Unfortunately, there is not only talk about specialization. Extradition rates floated quite strongly from collective farm to collective farm. Unlike sales, the collective farmers did not have a workday.
                  Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                  Depending on the efforts made, and therefore the annual result obtained, for the workday it was possible to get not the same amount of natural product.

                  Nonsense. "The efforts made" were not of decisive importance, and this crippled the collective farm peasantry. What mattered was the situation on the collective farm as a whole (the size of the pie) and the ability to resolve issues at the stage of distribution (blat).
                  1. Foul skeptic
                    Foul skeptic 15 November 2019 09: 21
                    0
                    But more qualified jobs could "cost" in workdays with increasing coefficients, a day for two, etc.

                    Is this any different than what I wrote? Well, except that I do not repeat a common mistake, believing that a workday is the norm of time.
                    Nonsense. The "efforts made" were not of decisive importance, and this crippled the collective farm peasantry.

                    Firstly, even within the framework of one collective farm, they had, for N workdays M payments, for 2N workdays, 2M payments. This is a quantitative differentiation.
                    Secondly, it was not about quantitative, but about qualitative differentiation - they meant different collective farms within one association. One collective farm invested N labor, so its yield was M, another collective farm invested 2N labor, so its yield was 2M / x (where x <= 2). Therefore, the latter will receive more products for each workday.
                    The charter of agricultural artels did not provide for equalization at all. The problem was that stupidity from above could equalize the rate of change. As well as irresponsibility or incompetence within the team, you can work well, but by mistake of the agronomist, livestock technician or brigade responsible for safety, ruin the fruits of collective labor, which will result in a lot of workdays and a little work day.
                    The situation on the collective farm as a whole (the size of the pie) and the ability to resolve issues at the distribution stage (blat) mattered

                    But at all times and everywhere was wrong? This must be fought. If you don’t fight, then everything suits you personally.
                    1. tesser
                      tesser 15 November 2019 09: 33
                      -2
                      Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                      at all times and everywhere was wrong? You have to deal with it.

                      By the methods of the Tambov peasantry?
                      1. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 15 November 2019 09: 37
                        0
                        With a doom inside the collective farm collective?
                        It mattered ... on the collective farm
                    2. brat07
                      brat07 17 November 2019 20: 26
                      0
                      How boring to read you!
                      Well, is it any easier? AND?
                      "Brevity is the sister of talent" (c).
                2. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 15 November 2019 10: 33
                  -1
                  Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                  What is egalitarianism?

                  Normal: the same workday was received by both the cattleman and fifa from the board.
                  Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                  Workdays were multiplied by coefficients, depending on the group of quotes by type of work.

                  Yes, bring the United Russia and the United Arab Republic by country.
                  1. Foul skeptic
                    Foul skeptic 15 November 2019 11: 11
                    +1
                    Normal: the same workday was received by both the cattleman and fifa from the board

                    Another "literate" who repeats the mistake of all "literate" who believe that a workday is the norm of the time. This time.
                    Two - you don’t know that the number of workdays for a cattleman depends on the cattleman, and the number of workdays for a cattleman does not depend on fifa at all, but depends ... on a cattleman. And Fifa can do nothing about it, just rely on this very cattle. Therefore, on large collective farms, everything else went wherever — due to the large total number of workdays, the limit for administrative personnel was tolerable, but there were no people in small boards — all the duties of the board members were pushed to the chairman.
                    Three - and what, somewhere now a laborer gets more administrative staff within the same organization? But there you have a complaint, but not here.
                    Yes, bring the United Russia and the United Arab Republic by country.

                    You didn't know that either?
                    1. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 15 November 2019 12: 23
                      -2
                      Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                      that workday this is the norm time. This time.

                      fool.
                      Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                      Two - you don’t know that the number of workdays for a cattleman depends on the cattleman, and the number of workdays for a cattleman does not depend on fifa at all, but depends ... on a cattleman. And Fifa can do nothing about it, just rely on this very cattle. Therefore, on large collective farms, everything else went wherever — due to the large total number of workdays, the limit for administrative personnel was tolerable, but there were no people in small boards — all the duties of the board members were pushed to the chairman.

                      "Be literate", yes! this led in a number of collective farms to the fact that collective farmers directly involved in production (field cultivation, animal husbandry), worked out significantly fewer workdays than collective farmers engaged in administrative, economic and ancillary work
                      Decree of the Council of Ministers of the USSR and the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks on measures to eliminate violations of the charter of the agricultural cooperative on collective farms. September 19.9.1946, XNUMX



                      The Council of Ministers of the USSR and the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks, on the basis of the materials received and the checks carried out in a number of areas, establish serious violations of the Charter of the agricultural artel on collective farms.

                      These violations are expressed in the misuse of workdays, the theft of public lands of collective farms, in the theft of collective farm property, abuses by district and other party-Soviet workers, violation of the democratic principles of managing the agricultural artel — the election of boards and chairmen of collective farms, and their accountability to meetings of collective farmers.

                      Waste of workdays

                      The misuse of workdays on collective farms goes onon the line of inflating the staff of management and maintenance personnel on collective farms and excessively high labor costs and cash for administrative expenses
                      The improper use of labor due to an unjustified, excessive expansion of the administrative and managerial staff in many collective farms led to a shortage of able-bodied collective farmers to work in the fields and farms, while there were many people in service positions who did nothing and were paid higher than in production work.

                      In unnecessary and far-fetched positions on collective farms, often retailers and parasites who evade production work, eat up the accumulations of collective farms and live off the labor of those collective farmers who work in the field or take care of livestock.
                      .
                      Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                      You didn't know that either?

                      chatter ....
                      1. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 15 November 2019 12: 53
                        0
                        mistake all the "literates" who believe that workday is the norm

                        Is there a problem with understanding the Russian language?
                        Next.
                        Does the word violation in your text not bother you? Do not give offense as an accepted norm.
                        Inflating the states? High labor costs?
                        According to the law, the determination of the staff of administrative and service personnel and the limit of workdays for their payment is not under the responsibility of one person or group of persons, but is approved at a general meeting of collective farmers. Monetary contributions, and not in kind, were generally prescribed at a rate of 2% for maintenance and not more. At the same meeting, collective farmers have the right to impose a fine of up to 10% on the chairman and members of the board, if they consider that the distribution of workdays did not happen correctly. Where is it now possible for subordinates to impose a fine on their leader by collective decision?
                        chatter ....

                        You have about ENiR. request
                      2. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 16 November 2019 07: 10
                        0
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Is there a problem with understanding the Russian language?

                        At you, for you said what I did not say.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Does the word violation in your text not bother you? Do not give offense as accepted norm.
                        Inflating the states? High labor costs?

                        No, it doesn’t bother.
                        For these "violations" became the daily NORM, with which these regulations fought, but the "violations" won. And not only in collective farms, but in the entire vicious system
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        You have about ENiR.

                        ENiR for sowing millet and collecting buckwheat-bring.
                      3. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 17 November 2019 11: 23
                        0
                        At you, for you said what I did not say

                        Pearl about cattle and Fifu with the same workday can occur only in the case of the perception of the workday as the norm of time.
                        For these "violations" became the daily NORM, with which these regulations fought, but the "violations" won. And not only in collective farms, but in the entire vicious system

                        If you argue in this way, then the situation is even worse now. If only they would have thought before writing.
                        You just need to get away from where the discussion started and spread your thoughts on the tree.
                        The conversation began with "leveling". Show me in the charter of the agricultural cartel, which clause of it implies the same wages, regardless of the volume, nature or quality of work performed. You say the installed system was flawed. So show me this flaw in the law.
                        ENiR for sowing millet and collecting buckwheat-bring.

                        For what? Does this relate to the topic of conversation? In which place?
                      4. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 17 November 2019 13: 01
                        -2
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Pearl about cattle and Fifu with the same workday can occur only in the case of the perception of the workday as the norm of time.

                        This could only happen with understanding problems.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        If you argue in this way, then the situation is even worse now. If only they would have thought before writing.
                        You just need to get away from where the discussion started and spread your thoughts on the tree.
                        The conversation began with "leveling". Show me in the charter of the agricultural cartel, which clause of it implies the same wages, regardless of the volume, nature or quality of work performed. You say the installed system was flawed. So show me this flaw in the law.

                        I say. See behind the window: it is NOT. Are you few?
                        Vices-in the decision indicated.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        For what? Does this relate to the topic of conversation? In which place?

                        in the last paragraph
                      5. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 18 November 2019 19: 00
                        -1
                        Vices-in the decision indicated.

                        The decision indicated violations of the charter. Once again I say - do not give offense as the norm.
                        Show me in the charter of the agricultural artel what item it implies the same pay, regardless of the volume, nature or quality of work.
                        in the last paragraph

                        There are already many last paragraphs in the correspondence. And at the same time, anyway, your request about the UniR does not correspond with any one.
                      6. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 19 November 2019 10: 08
                        -1
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        The decision indicated violations of the charter. Once again I say - do not give offense as the norm.

                        Chronic illnesses that disappeared only together with the patient
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        There are already many last paragraphs in the correspondence. And at the same time, anyway, your request about the UniR does not correspond with any one.

                        The latter is always about pricing
                      7. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 19 November 2019 10: 51
                        0
                        In the introduction, CHRONIC diseases are indicated that disappeared only with the patient

                        Ah, that's how it turns out. Can I tell you about chronic diseases, say, of the public procurement system? We then have a "vicious system in the state, the state is vicious through and through and in general darkness." Start judging.
                        I repeat the third time - do not give the violation as normal.
                        Show me the clause of the bylaws that has a loophole that causes such "necessarily-predominantly" diseases to appear.
                        Moreover, you are looking for loopholes in order to get away from talking about leveling and giving such "evidence" you do not even understand that this proof, even in violation, shows that there was no leveling.
                        Doing nothing and receiving a higher payment than in production

                        Different salaries for different jobs are no longer equalization laughing laughing
                        The latter is always about pricing

                        It's about pricing, but it has nothing to do with the topic of conversation. Therefore, I don’t understand why I should bring ENiR, what will it show?
                      8. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 19 November 2019 13: 01
                        -1
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Ah, that's how it turns out. You tell about chronic diseases, say, the public procurement system? We then have a "vicious system in the state, the state is vicious through and through and in general darkness." Start judging.

                        Yes yes
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        I repeat the third time - do not give the violation as normal.
                        Show me the paragraph of the charter in which the loophole is hidden due to which tWhat kind of diseases "must-mandatory "appear.

                        the patient died -You are not enough ?! belay
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Moreover, you are looking for loopholes in order to get away from talking about leveling and giving such "evidence" you do not even understand that this evidence, even in violation, shows that there was no leveling

                        On the contrary, it was: therefore, they sat in a bloated state, and not in manure.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Different salaries for different jobs are no longer equalization

                        good
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        It's about pricing, but it has nothing to do with the topic of conversation. Therefore, I don’t understand why I should bring ENiR, what will it show?

                        it was you trying to show them something request
                      9. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 19 November 2019 13: 46
                        0
                        Yes

                        fitting tenders to specific suppliers of goods and services.
                        You are not enough ?!

                        Yes, I want to see the charter item
                        On the contrary, it was

                        And what is "equalized" here, volume, character or quality of work? Between what is the equal sign then put?
                        it was you trying to show them something

                        you were the first to write about EniR, so I keep wondering why I should bring it.
                      10. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 20 November 2019 10: 42
                        0
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        fitting tenders to specific suppliers of goods and services.

                        Common General Tender Rules
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Yes, I want to see the charter item

                        choose any. NO collective farms, artificially forcibly created, disappeared
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        And what is "equalized" here, volume, character or quality of work? Between what is the equal sign then put?

                        between money
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        you were the first to write about EniR, so I keep wondering why I should bring it.

                        uniform country rules for collective farms - you mentioned
                      11. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 20 November 2019 18: 53
                        0
                        Common General Tender Rules

                        Are you crazy?
                        Show me where "adjustment of bidding for specific suppliers of goods and services" is allowed in the Federal Law "On the contract system in the procurement of goods, works, services to meet state and municipal needs" dated 05.04.2013 N 44-FZ
                        choose any.

                        It is clear that there is nothing to say in defense of your stupidity.
                        between money

                        something does not grow together
                        higher payment

                        higher is>, not =. Even in violation there is no "leveling", all the more so if the activity is organized in accordance with the charter.
                        uniform country rules for collective farms - you mentioned

                        No. I could not say such stupidity. ENiRami normalized the construction and repair and construction sector, not agricultural. Show me where I am talking about ENiR? I can show you where you ask about EniR.
                      12. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 21 November 2019 10: 50
                        -1
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Are you crazy?
                        Show me where "adjustment of bidding for specific suppliers of goods and services" is allowed in the Federal Law "On the contract system in the procurement of goods, works, services to meet state and municipal needs" dated 05.04.2013 N 44-FZ

                        Nowhere, naturally, is "normal".
                        Therefore, this is a crime, and not the norm.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        It is clear that there is nothing to say in defense of your stupidity.

                        belay Stupidity (coll.khozv), which has long died out due to its bastardity, is defended by you. request
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        something does not grow together

                        tighten up! yes
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        No. I could not say such stupidity. ENiRami normalized the construction and repair and construction sector, not agricultural. Show me where I am talking about ENiR? I can show you where you ask about EniR.

                        belay
                        Naturally, I asked after Your his mention of this.

                        PS with "normal", mentioning abnormal, I do not communicate (disdain).

                        MSS As it came to life, there are NO answers to 5 questions for the fifth time either. lol
                      13. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 21 November 2019 19: 25
                        0
                        Nowhere naturally

                        a message earlier you write
                        Common general rules

                        And do not get out laughing
                        Naturally, I asked after your mention of this

                        Show me the mention of ENIR?
                        long dead due to its viciousness, you protect just

                        You are stubborn, it’s already a clinical something.
                        It was only about the erroneous judgment that the collective farm charter provides for "leveling".
                        no answers to 5 questions

                        So you will not answer "yes or no" to a direct monosyllabic question
                        "Olgovich, do you wear women's underwear only on even days, or always?"
                        Your questions are of the same nature.
                      14. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 22 November 2019 11: 44
                        -1
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic

                        a message earlier you write
                        Common general rules

                        And do not get out



                        And there is.
                        And what do you fantasize about? lol
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Show me the mention of ENIR?

                        you mentioned ed norms for collective farms, and I asked to submit them
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic

                        Here it is you're stubborn, it's already clinical something.
                        It was only about the erroneous judgment that the collective farm charter provides for "leveling".

                        It never came to you, ek:
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        you are stubborn, this is already a clinical thing.
                        request
                        It was about the vagueness of the economy and the system that imposed it, where NOBODY wanted to work. AGAIN incomprehensible? request
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Т
                        "Olgovich, do you wear women's underwear only on even days or always?"
                        Your questions are of the same nature.

                        You forget: WHAT do you allow yourself? negative
                        Fi ... negative
                      15. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 22 November 2019 14: 28
                        0
                        Common general rules

                        this is a crime

                        Yeah, that means federal laws set crime as the norm.
                        Which of your characteristics apply to such a case ... - "vicious system ... or full-time ..."? I even find it difficult to choose.
                        Maybe, nevertheless, we will not pass offense as the norm and everything will fall into place and there will be no need to make such nonsense? I am for this option, and you?
                        you mentioned ed norms for collective farms, and I asked to submit them

                        Well, I still mentioned otherwise in the first tessera message.
                        It is difficult to fulfill your request. To do this, I would have to present account books and a charter specifically taken collective farm. The fact is that, according to the charter, the norms for the development and rate of work in workdays are approved at general meetings of collective farmers in collaboration with executive committees. The executive committees corrected approximate payment standards approved by the Council of Ministers taking into account the particularities of individual collective farms. Further, such approved norms were superimposed on a 9-bit grid (there were seven- and five-). Thus, a fivefold gradation (0,5-2,5) of the assessment and payment of work was obtained.
                      16. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 22 November 2019 15: 17
                        -1
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Yeah, that means federal laws set crime as the norm.

                        no. Where is it? fool
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Well, I still mentioned otherwise in the first tessera message.
                        It is difficult to fulfill your request. For this, account books and the charter of a particular collective farm would have to be presented. The fact is that, according to the charter, the norms for the development and rate of work in workdays are approved at general meetings of collective farmers in collaboration with executive committees. The executive committees corrected approximate payment standards approved by the Council of Ministers taking into account the particularities of individual collective farms. Further, such approved norms were superimposed on a 9-bit grid (there were seven- and five-). Thus, a fivefold gradation (0,5-2,5) of the assessment and payment of work was obtained.

                        what is it about
                      17. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 22 November 2019 18: 59
                        0
                        no. Where is it?

                        in your posts, where else:
                        1) adjustment of bidding for specific suppliers of goods and services (BUT)
                        this is a crime (AT)

                        2) adjustment of bidding for specific suppliers of goods and services (BUT)
                        Common General Tender Rules (C)

                        remember the laws of classical logic "if A = B and A = C, then B = C or C = B"
                        So for you, "The usual general rules for holding tenders is a crime." And since the "general rules for holding tenders" are spelled out in 44-FZ (federal law), then, accordingly,
                        federal laws set crime as the norm

                        Either that, or it is not necessary, and in the case of collective farms, the crime should be passed off as the norm. Then either put on your underpants or remove the cross.
                        what is it about

                        no, the question is, with what fright did such a question come to me in the context of my message to tesser?
                        Again, in the best traditions, you asked a question to which, in principle, there could be no answer, since there were no uniform norms, in principle, there were, paradoxically, approximate norms, since they proceeded from one central governing body. Therefore, the request cannot be fulfilled, not because it contradicts my previous statements, but because it is impossible to do at all due to the absence of the requested things in nature.
                        And in the context of the message to tesser, the explanation in the previous message is presented - the workday was multiplied by a value from 0,5 to 2,5.
                      18. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 23 November 2019 12: 31
                        -2
                        Quote: A vile skeptic
                        no. Where is it?

                        in your posts, where else:
                        1) adjustment of bidding for specific suppliers of goods and services (BUT)
                        this is a crime (AT)

                        2) adjustment of bidding for specific suppliers of goods and services (BUT)
                        Common General Tender Rules (C)

                        remember the laws of classical logic "if A = B and A = C, then B = C or C = B"
                        So for you, "The usual general rules for holding tenders is a crime." And since the "general rules for holding tenders" are spelled out in 44-FZ (federal law), then, accordingly,
                        federal laws set crime as the norm

                        Either that, or it is not necessary, and in the case of collective farms, the crime should be passed off as the norm. Then either put on your underpants or remove the cross.
                        what is it about

                        no, the question is, with what fright did such a question come to me in the context of my message to tesser?
                        Again, in the best traditions, you asked a question to which, in principle, there could be no answer, since there were no uniform norms, in principle, there were, paradoxically, approximate norms, since they proceeded from one central governing body. Therefore, the request cannot be fulfilled, not because it contradicts my previous statements, but because it is impossible to do at all due to the absence of the requested things in nature.
                        And in the context of the message to tesser, the explanation in the previous message is presented - the workday was multiplied by a value from 0,5 to 2,5.

                        Same..
                        Tired of it. For sim hi
                      19. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 22 November 2019 14: 46
                        0
                        You forget: WHAT do you allow yourself? negative
                        Fi ...

                        I sincerely apologize for my trick
                      20. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 22 November 2019 15: 19
                        -1
                        Quote: A vile skeptic
                        You forget: WHAT do you allow yourself? negative
                        Fi ...

                        I sincerely apologize for my trick

                        accepted.
                        What for?! request
                      21. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 22 November 2019 18: 06
                        0
                        What for?!

                        You see, I mentioned Miss Bok about Carlson's question? In the context of your asking questions that cannot be answered unequivocally. Mentioned. You either did not understand what I meant by that, or you ignored it. Then, so that you could not miss it, I just translated it into a more "adult" version.
                      22. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 23 November 2019 12: 32
                        -2
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic

                        You see, I did mention Frecken Bock about Carlson’s question? In the context of your questions to which It is impossible to give a definite answer. Mentioned. You either did not understand what I meant by that, or you ignored it. Then, so that you could not miss it, I just translated it into a more "adult" version.


                        You can: "no".
                      23. George Davydov
                        George Davydov 19 November 2019 22: 55
                        0
                        Is it necessary to bring to the end ?, mind ?, that these violations are the methods of creating social parasites that have devoured the roots of Soviet power, removed workers from power, etc., which allowed us to overthrow the Soviet power quietly, peacefully and without war.
        2. tesser
          tesser 13 November 2019 15: 06
          -3
          Quote: McAr
          I would like that time, those conditions, that system, those people, that attitude to work to come in our time.

          Has already. Suitcase - Station - Pyongyang. The train 100Щ, left today, you didn’t have time (but you can still catch it by plane), the nearest December 12 and 26, 0.35 Moscow time Yaroslavsky station.
    4. kalibr
      kalibr 13 November 2019 10: 15
      -1
      Alexander! You are all the author, and you suffer from incomplete knowledge. You do not know which side the archive door opens to, but judge ... you would go to the party archive, read the affairs of the collective farms, the situation of collective farmers ... the inside of life would open to you. What city do you live in? If it is a regional center, then you should have the archive of the former OK CPSU and anybody can get there.
      1. Mcar
        Mcar 13 November 2019 10: 18
        +1
        Quote: kalibr
        Alexander!

        Am I wrong somewhere? Wasn’t 60-100 workdays the norm? Could someone make it work more? Essentially got nitpicking?
    5. tesser
      tesser 13 November 2019 14: 58
      -3
      Quote: McAr
      For example, on collective farms, depending on the region, the norm of workdays was from 60 to 100.

      Yeah. Only this is not the norm. This is the minimum, not fulfilled - a criminal offense.
      Quote: McAr
      maybe in 50 days

      50 workdays - for children from 12 to 16.
      Quote: McAr
      sat in the bazaar - traded surpluses of personal plots

      What bazaar is it? Who will let them into the city? And what kind of surplus? Do you know how much for 100 sticks of grain they gave under Comrade Stalin? Do you know that women were dragging milk from their own cow to the collective farm?
      Quote: McAr
      Naturally, they received a little, but compensated outside the collective farm work, with earnings.

      Freelancers. Outsourced Microsoft code.
      Quote: McAr
      also had permits to the southern seas,

      To Azure.
      Quote: McAr
      Valuable and scarce items

      That saddle is big for you,
      Carpet and TV.
      They immediately hand in a gift
      Or maybe handed.

      Quote: McAr
      And how else to explain, such a fact that in the country of the Soviets there were collective farmers who gave the army a tank or plane bought for their savings.

      Addictive pricing. This plane at the state price cost the same as a can of 20 liters of honey on the market.

      Little of. Okay, Yaki. Cobras used to give the front. Roosevelt bought for labor savings.
      1. Mcar
        Mcar 13 November 2019 15: 10
        +3
        Quote: tesser
        Yeah. Only this is not the norm. This is the minimum, not fulfilled - a criminal offense.

        Yes, such as you do at least 2 working days a year, all one thing there are heroes who are not able to do this - impotent fucking.

        Quote: tesser
        50 workdays - for children from 12 to 16.

        Now prove, yap bazaar.

        Quote: tesser
        What bazaar is it?

        Ordinary. One member of the family sits in the bazaar, one for the whole family works out the workdays, the rest to the fact that in the bazaar they carry everything from dill to crucian carp. Family in a row.

        Quote: tesser
        Addictive pricing. This plane at the state price cost the same as a can of 20 liters of honey on the market.

        Yeah, 2 liters of urine.

        Why are you, Russophobe, so you don’t like people, huh? Did you have mom, dad? Why angry like a dog?
        1. tesser
          tesser 13 November 2019 15: 33
          -3
          Quote: McAr
          Do 2 working days a year, all one thing there are heroes who are not able to do this - impotent fucking.

          Do you offer to shoot these two days in x-video?
          Quote: McAr
          Now prove, yap bazaar.

          I did not drink hawthorn with you on the brudershaft.
          4. To establish the obligatory minimum of workdays per year for adolescents - family members of collective farmers aged 12 to 16 years in the amount of at least 50 workdays per year. To invite collective farms to issue work books to adolescents and to take into account the workdays separately worked out by adolescents.

          5. To establish that able-bodied collective farmers who have not worked out without compelling reasons the obligatory minimum of workdays for periods of agricultural work are brought to trial and, by the verdict of the people's court, are punished with corrective labor on collective farms for up to 6 months with deduction from payment of workdays of up to 25% in favor collective farm. To invite collective farms to establish that able-bodied collective farmers and collective farmers who have not worked out the obligatory minimum of workdays during the year should be considered as having left the collective farm, having lost the collective farmer’s rights and losing their personal plot.

          6. To propose to the people's courts all the cases referred to in paragraph 5, to consider no more than 10 days and the sentences in these cases to be executed immediately.

          7. The chairpersons of the boards of collective farms and the foremen for evading the court of able-bodied collective farmers who do not produce a minimum of workdays are brought to justice.

          Chairman of the board
          People's Commissars of the USSR
          I. STALIN
          Secretary
          Central Committee of the CPSU (b)
          A. ANDREEV

          RESOLUTION SNK / VKP (b) of April 13, 1942 No. 508
          Quote: McAr
          Ordinary. One family member sits in a bazaar,

          Who issued him a passport to this member? I don’t ask yet who gave him the car, the bazaar is also to me.
          Quote: McAr
          Yeah, 2 liters of urine.


          Quote: McAr
          Yeah, 2 liters of urine.

          I am not interested in this topic. And food prices
          https://archive74.ru/tseny-voennogo-vremeni
          1. Mcar
            Mcar 13 November 2019 15: 51
            +2
            Quote: tesser
            RESOLUTION SNK / VKP (b) of April 13, 1942 No. 508

            Nerd, tell what at that time was in the country, with the country, or do you realize?
            1. tesser
              tesser 13 November 2019 15: 56
              -4
              Quote: McAr
              Nerd, tell what at that time was in the country, with the country, or do you realize?

              And what was the matter with the country that deserters of the labor front - under the people's court? In the Reich, they did it in the same 42nd?
              1. Mcar
                Mcar 13 November 2019 15: 58
                +1
                Quote: tesser
                In the Reich, they did it in the same 42nd?

                That's because they didn’t do that, it ended in the 45th.
      2. Sugar Honeyovich
        Sugar Honeyovich 13 November 2019 16: 57
        +2
        Quote: tesser
        What bazaar is it? Who will let them into the city?

        Which is in the city. Anyone. And if no one starts up, they’ll just leave. However, as a rule, no one asked for permission.
        1. tesser
          tesser 13 November 2019 22: 06
          -3
          Quote: Sahar Medovich
          Which is in the city. Anyone

          Seriously? We read the standard for passports and rules for staying in cities.
          1. Sugar Honeyovich
            Sugar Honeyovich 14 November 2019 06: 12
            -1
            Quote: tesser
            Seriously? We read the standard for passports and rules for staying in cities.

            Serious does not happen. Reading the rules and regulations, as mathematicians say, is necessary, but not enough. To know how it was REALLY, you need to question people - contemporaries, eyewitnesses, participants in the events. And they say that:
            - in the city (district center) to the bazaar from the villages went constantly;
            - except for going to the market (who wished) to church;
            - Specifically, my ancestors for some special occasion went to church and to the regional center. We walked because to go to such a thing is a sin.
            1. tesser
              tesser 14 November 2019 07: 53
              -1
              That is, peasant happiness under the USSR, about which we are talking - to stomp on foot into a city with "surplus farm" on the backs and there to shred from garbage?

              Hmm, that sounds interesting.
  12. kalibr
    kalibr 13 November 2019 07: 35
    -5
    What state created Steel? Such that after his death lasted only 38 years. For comparison, the shogun Ieyasu Tokugawa created a state that lasted 264 years after his death.
    1. Far B
      Far B 13 November 2019 08: 06
      +1
      But did the Shogun Tokugawa also have to completely rephrase the social structure with consciousness? Or is it just that the political system is slightly under itself to rihtanut?
    2. Aviator_
      Aviator_ 13 November 2019 08: 19
      +2
      This shogun did not find his Corn Khrushchev.
    3. Alexander Suvorov
      Alexander Suvorov 13 November 2019 08: 32
      -1
      kalibr (Vyacheslav)
      What state created Steel? Such that after his death lasted only 38 years.
      What are you saying ?! His legacy still cannot be plundered and destroyed. All the successes of the USSR have been backlogged since the Stalin era, including a breakthrough into space and other achievements.
      The plant built in our city under Stalin was a city-forming one, after the collapse of the USSR, whoever just did not outbid and robbed it, starting from local thieves and ending with the Americans. But he still lives no matter what, although with a creak, but this is already a question for modern leadership.
      Well, who, whom, but not Stalin’s fault for you, a citizen, a former teacher of history of the CPSU, and now a changeling and a champion in shoes in the air.
    4. BAI
      BAI 13 November 2019 09: 26
      0
      And the state of Alexander the Great collapsed immediately after his death.
    5. RUSS
      RUSS 13 November 2019 09: 30
      -2
      Quote: kalibr
      What state created Steel? Such that after his death lasted only 38 years

      After the death of the same Mao Zedong, 43 years have passed, and China does not even think to slow down the pace of development.
      So, Dzhugashvili chose the wrong path, like the other general secretaries.
      1. boriz
        boriz 13 November 2019 14: 50
        +2
        An anti-Soviet project was created from China, so the United States actively helped with money and technology. If it weren’t for that, China would have sat in the deep ...
  13. The comment was deleted.
    1. Alexander Suvorov
      Alexander Suvorov 13 November 2019 08: 34
      +4
      Muhammad (Muhammad)
      Damn you sick with your Stalin
      Look do not choke on your anger, curses tend to turn against those who sent them.
      So you do not get sick!
    2. RUSS
      RUSS 13 November 2019 09: 25
      -2
      Quote: Muhammad
      Damn you sick with your Stalin, and communism is your curse, to all who are nostalgic for the times of this tyrant, I wish you a quick reunion with him !!!

      good good good
    3. BAI
      BAI 13 November 2019 09: 28
      +2
      A long time ago there was no such tantrum.
    4. SOVIET UNION 2
      SOVIET UNION 2 13 November 2019 09: 31
      +4
      And what was tyrannical under Stalin? Can I educate? What was the manifestation of Stalin's tyranny? That's about criminal tyranny that something all the language in the ass hold. And there they somehow do without the police. courts and human rights defenders. And no one buzzes about violating human rights by crime. No one makes a complaint to criminal authorities. On the contrary! Crime is cool! Crime is fair! And what is the justice of crime? Is Chanson cool music? Music of the people? Which one? Criminal? Or is the criminal world the fairest? Well praised Circle crime. So what? Did it help him?
      1. carstorm 11
        carstorm 11 13 November 2019 12: 31
        -6
        chanson is just the most folk music and is) this is a collective term that includes thieves and, for example, military songs. romances, etc. Rosenbaum as an example of such music. or cliffs. all this chanson united.
  14. rocket757
    rocket757 13 November 2019 08: 20
    0
    In the USSR-Russia, a society of knowledge, service, and creation was created. It was a civilization of the future.

    The goals and objectives were clear, worthy ... and the rest, much, had to be perceived differently.
    Now that they don’t talk about those goals and objectives, don’t dream, in general, we hope that we will return to them anyway without repeating our previous mistakes.
  15. BAI
    BAI 13 November 2019 09: 21
    +1
    The red emperor. Stalin gave rise to the formation of a new civilization and society.

    1. Well now it’s clear who the emperor is, according to the author (which was not clear in the last article). Even despite the fact that the presence of a military caste was an indispensable feature of the empire, there were no castes in the USSR by definition.
    2. K. Marx: "Civilization is a social formation based on the oppression of one class by another." Socialism is a social formation following civilization. What class oppresses the other under socialism? Of course, I understand that the author considers himself smarter than K. Marx, but how many people know and share the opinion of Marx, and how many - the author?
    1. Mcar
      Mcar 13 November 2019 09: 31
      +2
      Quote: BAI
      Socialism is the social formation following civilization. Which class oppresses the other under socialism?

      The social formation following capitalism is called communism. And this is a classless society, there are no oppressors and oppressed. Socialism is the primary, initial, undeveloped phase of communism. Like a child growing up, but not yet an adult. And in this phase, the most progressive class of the proletariat suppresses (should suppress) any manifestations of the bourgeois, i.e. negative manifestations from the previous formation. In my opinion everything is transparent here.
    2. Boris55
      Boris55 13 November 2019 09: 43
      -1
      Quote: BAI
      in the USSR there were no castes by definition.

      But in the late USSR there was a joke.
      The colonel’s son asks his father:
      - Dad, will I become a colonel?
      - Yes, son.
      - Daddy, and I will become a general?
      - No son, the general has his own son.

      Quote: BAI
      but how many people know and share the opinion of Marx

      Stalin did not share Marx's opinion. Moreover, he spoke about the bankruptcy of Capital under socialism. "... I think that our economists should put an end to this discrepancy between the old concepts and the new state of affairs in our socialist country, replacing the old concepts with new ones, corresponding to the new situation. We could tolerate this discrepancy until a certain time, but now the time has come, when we must finally eliminate this discrepancy ... "i.e. give up obscurity.
      1. DNS-a42
        DNS-a42 13 November 2019 12: 39
        +1
        Quote: Boris55
        Stalin did not share Marx's opinion. Moreover, he spoke about the bankruptcy of Capital under socialism. "... I think that our economists should put an end to this discrepancy between the old concepts and the new state of affairs in our socialist country by replacing the old concepts with new ones corresponding to the new situation. We could tolerate this discrepancy until a certain time, but now the time has come, when we must finally eliminate this discrepancy ... " those. abandon mraxism.


        "Moreover, I think it is necessary throw back some other conceptstaken from the "Capital" of Marx, where Marx was engaged in the analysis of capitalism, and artificially glued to our socialist relations."

        Maybe stop misinterpreting? And it turns out that Stalin is your schizophrenic, at first he calls for abandoning Marxism, and then he writes that we cannot do without Marx’s reproduction theory under socialism, and then he also writes about the importance of a textbook on Marxism, and then he also reproaches his comrades for leaving from Marxist principles.
  16. kalibr
    kalibr 13 November 2019 09: 30
    -1
    Quote: BAI
    And the state of Alexander the Great collapsed immediately after his death.

    Which just speaks of its fragility, right?
    1. BAI
      BAI 13 November 2019 14: 37
      +4
      Not durable, but why? It all depends not on the system - slave states existed long after the Macedonian, but on the leader. There would be a more worthy king than Nicholas - RI would still exist, at least there would be no revolutions of 1917. Another person would come to power instead of Gorbachev — the USSR would also exist. We see that completely different states in terms of organization equally depend on who is in power. An example of the United States is not necessary. The events with Trump (and with Kennedy) clearly demonstrated that in the United States (and, probably, in other countries), the president is not the head of state, but some kind of shadow government that wants to be unknown, and elected rulers only fulfill his will. How there (in the shadow government) come to power - we do not know.
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 13 November 2019 14: 50
        -5
        Rome lasted a thousand years ...
  17. kalibr
    kalibr 13 November 2019 09: 33
    -3
    Quote: Alexander Suvorov
    Well, who, whom, but not Stalin’s fault for you, a citizen, a former teacher of history of the CPSU, and now a changeling and a champion in shoes in the air.

    Did I find fault? I pointed out that it lasted only 38 years. Obviously, had it been more ... well, let's say, perfect, it would have stood longer, or we would still live under the USSR. But as always, some "would" would have prevented.
    1. Boris55
      Boris55 13 November 2019 09: 53
      +1
      Quote: kalibr
      I pointed out that it lasted only 38 years.

      It didn’t exist for 38 years. It took them 38 years to destroy it.

      After the execution of workers in Novocherkassk (1962 year), the Trotskyists realized that capitalism would not succeed in imposing the people on the heels. The era of Brezhnev’s degradation was nothing more than a creeping counter-revolution, during which they nurtured and placed their people in all key posts, at the same time removing the people from management, killing any initiative from below, soldering it ... it was for this reason that the people did not defend guiding and guiding.
    2. Alexander Suvorov
      Alexander Suvorov 13 November 2019 11: 09
      +2
      kalibr (Vyacheslav) But, as always, some kind of "would" interfere.
      Well, about this very "would" have stumbled and RI in due time, right?
  18. kalibr
    kalibr 13 November 2019 09: 35
    0
    [quote = Aviator_] of this shogun did not find his Khrushchek Kukuruznogo.
    Or he made it so that this was not found, which speaks of his mind, right?
  19. kalibr
    kalibr 13 November 2019 09: 37
    -1
    Quote: rocket757
    And a completely new one, such as the state of the Workers and Peasants, did not fit into the reality surrounding it and had really huge, negative, terrible pressure from all sides!

    What else in the 1908 year in his novel RED STAR was warned by A. Bogadanov. Lenin then argued with him, but we see who turned out to be right. Read it, a very interesting piece
  20. Olgovich
    Olgovich 13 November 2019 09: 37
    -3
    When you watch movies of the Stalin era Heroes of the Soviet era are filled with bright energy,. In them ndisease era of consumption

    So there they are generally nothing and never get sick. And also do not get divorced, do not drink, do not swear, do not age and do not die.

    Such hefty, always young, good fellows, forever and without reason laughing and cheerfully singing, jokingly exceed the tasks of the party.
    This society knowledge, ministry and creation

    They did NOT know: about the millions who died within 9 months of starvation, about 630 executions for 000 year 1 * 37gg, about hundreds of thousands of exiled children, about the price of wars, etc.
    What is this ... "knowledge? belay

    By the way, where are the members of this society?
    -Stalin, 1934: "we have become 168 млн
    -Stalin, 1935 (and 1930) - "we each grow by more than 3 million.
    .those. in 1937: 168 + 3 * 3 =177 million
    The census of 1937 gave ....162 млн
    177-162 =15 million DECLASED over 3 years- from the fun, apparently.
    This is 10% of the population ...
    then the demographic catastrophe began ...
    and again rushed forward to the future. The merit of Stalin is that he was able to give such faith and dedication to society.

    The author, apparently, is not aware that all the great Stalinist unfinished buildings were immediately closed after his death by his comrades-in-arms of the Turkmen canal, the Sahal tunnel, the northern railway, etc.
    The tired country didn’t already have the strength or the means to do this: it’s impossible to live forever in a rush regime
    1. Foul skeptic
      Foul skeptic 13 November 2019 10: 30
      +1
      -Stalin, 1934: "there are 168 million of us
      -Stalin, 1935 (and 1930) - "we each grow by more than 3 million.
      .those. in 1937: 168 + 3 * 3 = 177 million
      The 1937 census yielded ... 162 million
      177-162 = 15 million LOST for 3 years, from the fun, apparently.

      Well, they gave the person incorrect data, he voiced them. The census simply showed the incorrectness of previous calculations. Count according to this principle, as you think, the population decline in the United States between 30 and 40 years. And tell me how many people have gone there.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 13 November 2019 11: 43
        +1
        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
        Well, they gave the person incorrect data, he voiced them. The census simply showed the incorrectness of previous calculations.

        Yeah, Stalin-and give the wrong information-and for many years ?!belay Moreover, to make an unconscious retranslator from it? what are you ... belay

        M. Kurman is a demographer who managed population statistics at the TsUNKHU of the USSR in the 1930s .:

        "The last more or less known data on the population of the USSR refers to the end of 1931. As for the next two years - 1932 and 1933, they were characterized by a very large crop failure on a large territory of the Soviet Union - in Ukraine, in the Central Black Earth Region, In the Kuban, in the Volga region. As a result, the natural increase over the years was extremely small, and in some cases even turned out to be negative. In such conditions, we in the then TSUKHNU closed all data on the population, declared them forbidden. The last figure that was published refers to January 1, 1933. After that, no data was published, but they kept score. What was our surprise when at the XVII Congress of the Party Stalin was called the figure of the population, which diverged towards overstatement against our calculation of eight million. At my insistence, the then head of the population and health statistics department, the Hungarian émigré Sikra, turned to the then head of TsUNHU Osinsky with a question where did Stalin get the population figure named at the congress. Then they told me that Osinsky had a conversation with Stalin on this subject, and Stalin replied that he himself knew what number to call him. True, in the printed text, the population was reduced by a million against Stalin's oral speech. However, it was overpriced. "

        He knew everything well.
        The fame of the catastrophe is evidenced by the fact that since 1936 abortions in the country have been FORBIDDEN and this was done precisely because of the knowledge of the extent of what happened.

        And the 1937 census was banned.

        Then, by executions, direct falsification and lies, they pulled in the figure of 1939 million in 170, but, again, they didn’t explain where the tens of millions of the proclaimed growth had gone ....
        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
        Count on this principle how do you think population decline in the US between 30 and 40 years. And tell me how many people have gone there.

        You surprise me again: this is not what I think, but Stalin, December 35:
        the material situation of workers has improved significantly, which life has become better, more fun. population began to multiply much faster than in the old days. This, of course, is good, and we welcome it. Now we have Each year, a net population growth of about three million souls.
        He stated the same 5 years earlier.
      2. Olgovich
        Olgovich 13 November 2019 13: 20
        -2
        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
        Count according to this principle, as you think, the population decline in the United States between 30 and 40 years. And tell me how many people have gone there.

        And in the United States in these years, did they announce a much faster population growth every year than before, and even with a number?
        No?
        so how do I ... count? belay

        Let's go themselves, once offered such a probability hi
        1. Foul skeptic
          Foul skeptic 13 November 2019 14: 32
          +4
          Yeah, Stalin-and give the wrong information-and for many years?! Belay Yes, even make him an unconscious retranslator? what are you ... belay

          What's so surprising about that? This is not uncommon in life. They gave incorrect information not because they had the right one, but wanted to substitute and slip "misinformation". They gave the wrong one simply because they counted it wrong. I quote Zhiromskaya:
          at that time in science there was an official version that the increase in life
          population level automatically leads to its expanded reproduction,

          Based on this postulate
          Gosplan and TsUNKHU believed that "the law of the population of the socialist economy during the first five-year plan is the law of stabilization of rates at a relatively high level - 2,2-2,3%
          (in America - 0,9, in Japan - 1,2, in Italy - 0,85). The law of the population for the second five-year plan is a law in comparison with the first five-year plan of the narrowing spiral of population growth ... The growth rate of the population for the second five-year period is set at an average of 1,82%. Roughly speaking,
          the annual population growth for the second five-year period was estimated at about 3 million people

          But in fact, it turned out that the increase was 1% (an indicator similar to other industrial countries).
          M. Kurman the demographer who led the 1930s

          And it should not be surprising at all that everything he said appeared when it was impossible to verify his words. And for some reason, in a French expat magazine. Although I do not deny such an opportunity - well, a person’s insult, he served time because the calculated predicted figure was voiced as real.
          And by the way, he himself said about the accuracy of the calculations:
          As for the remaining discrepancy, it, apparently, can be attributed to the fact that the current statistics do not have a series of data.

          You surprise me again: I don’t think so.

          those. in 1937: 168 + 3 * 3 = 177 million
          177-162 = 15 million LOSS
          This is your calculations.
          So count on the same principle the US population between 30 and 40.
          And in the United States in these years, did they announce a much faster population growth every year than before, and even with a number?
          No?
          so how do I ... count? belay

          Let’s do it yourself, if you offered such a probability

          You do not understand? Then why, if you do not understand, then do the calculations for the USSR? We must begin to understand, and then count.
          US Population Census:
          1920 - 106 021 537
          1930 - 123 202 624
          1940 - 132 164 569
          1950 - 151 325 798
          Growth for 1920-1930: 123 202 624 - 106 021 537 = 17 181 087
          Growth for 1940-1950: 151 325 798 - 132 164 569 = 19 161 229
          Growth for 1930-1940: 132 164 569 - 123 202 624 = 8 961 945
          Voila, 8-9 million US deaths due to the Great Depression.
          This is what happens if you consider what you think.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 13 November 2019 14: 52
            0
            Quote: Nefarious skeptic
            What's so surprising about that? This is not uncommon in life. They gave incorrect information not because they had the right one, but wanted to substitute and slip "misinformation". They gave the wrong one simply because they counted it wrong. I quote Zhiromskaya:
            at that time in science there was an official version that the increase in life
            population level automatically leads to its expanded reproduction,

            I clearly wrote: the correct number in TSUNHU was known: 160 млн at the end of 1933, and not declared by Stalin 168 million
            Oh that gain no-There, they ALSO knew (therefore the data were kept secret), just as Stalin knew from them.

            And he announced an increase of 3 million because, yes, he had to declare, in order to "prove" all the Sov. the theory that under socialism "everything is random" than under capitalism, and a happy population breeds at a frantic pace (from happiness) ..

            To do this, and measures (Soviet) took-abortion is prohibited. But anyway ... request
            Quote: Nefarious skeptic
            So count on the same principle the US population between 30 and 40.

            With a fright?
            The USA did NOT lie that they were growing at 3 million annually. Why count them ?! belay
            1. Foul skeptic
              Foul skeptic 13 November 2019 16: 04
              0
              I wrote CLEARLY: the correct number was known to TsUNHU: 160 million at the end of 1933, and not 168 million declared by Stalin.

              To call the predicted figure correct is strong of course.
              And 160 million (more precisely, the phrase that a population of 8 million more was voiced) appeared from only one source - an article in a French magazine, allegedly based on a tape recording of Kurman’s voice, who had already died 23 years before the article was released.
              You wrote clearly ... Here Popov clearly wrote in his memorandum why the calculations showed an overestimated figure.
              With a fright?
              The USA did NOT lie that they were growing at 3 million annually. Why count them ?!

              Forget your kindergarten - you didn’t lie. Just count the shortfall in the United States between two specific dates (1930 and 1940) as "your" method. Let me remind you of your method.
              168 + 3 * 3 = 177 million
              177-162 = 15 million
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 14 November 2019 09: 59
                -1
                Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                To call the predicted figure correct is strong of course.

                What is this ... "forecast"? belay

                Stalin:
                our annual population growth is more than three million souls "

                "We have for the reporting period:
                ... b) The growth of the population of the Soviet Union with 160,5 million at the end of 1930 to 168 million at the end of 1933 "(1934).


                In 1934, the forecast ... 1930? What do you?
                Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                And 160 million (more precisely, the phrase that a population of 8 million more was voiced) appeared from only one source - an article in a French magazine, allegedly based on a tape recording of Kurman’s voice, who had already died 23 years before the article was released.

                Nonsense: at the beginning of 1934 the statistics given by the population was only 160465,2 thousand people. Source: The population of Russia in the twentieth century / Ed. Yu.A. Polyakova. M .: ROSSPEN, 2000.V. 1. S. 346.
                Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                Yes, you forget your kindergarten - you didn’t lie.

                How to forget it, if this lie has become-
                1. an indicator ... of the "success" of the system, the BASIS of justifying any crimes: after all, everything is for the people, it looks like it is rushing.
                2. indicated in all so-called What are the country’s directories?
                Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                Just count the US population shortage between two specific dates (1930 and 1940) as "your" method. Let me remind you of your method.

                I refuse to understand you: what is the PURPOSE of this calculation?
                In the USA, let it be as it is, they didn’t hide anything, there are all numbers by years and there is no need to count anything.
                In addition, they have their own specifics associated with the waves of immigration.
                Stalin announced 30 and 34 g and in 1935 (a constant for 6 years), about the CONSTANT growth of three million, while the KNOWN truth was completely different.
                1. Foul skeptic
                  Foul skeptic 14 November 2019 11: 58
                  0
                  What is this ... "forecast"

                  The usual one, which was built on the basis of the population size according to the 1926 census and the reproduction rate adopted according to the "version that the increase in
                  the level of the population automatically leads to its expanded reproduction. "
                  In 1934, the forecast ... 1930? What do you?

                  No, not the forecast for 1930, but the forecast for the first and second five-year plans based on the population size according to the 1926 census and the reproduction rate adopted according to "the version that an increase in the standard of living of the population automatically leads to its expanded reproduction." So, at least 1930, at least 1934 - there was only one source of numbers.
                  Nonsense: at the beginning of 1934, the statistics given by the population figure was only 160465,2 thousand people. Source: The population of Russia in the twentieth century / Ed. Yu.A. Polyakova. M .: ROSSPEN, 2000.V. 1.P. 346.

                  As I like, when you take the liberty of citing sources of information)) The source of the information provided is not ROSSPEN’s book, but the Demoscope website (although there is something that Soros’s money does), but since there is a link to this book, then you decide to attribute it. And so maybe they saw that it says the same thing that I wrote (which is not surprising, the drafters from Zhiromskaya borrowed this):
                  Gosplan and TsUNKHU believed that "the law of the population of the socialist economy during the first five-year plan is the law of stabilization of rates at a relatively high level - 2,2-2,3%
                  (in America - 0,9, in Japan - 1,2, in Italy - 0,85). The law of the population for the second five-year plan is a law in comparison with the first five-year plan of the narrowing spiral of population growth ... The growth rate of the population for the second five-year period is set at an average of 1,82%. Roughly speaking,
                  the annual population growth for the second five-year period was estimated at about 3 million people

                  And in the same place it is accidentally written that "based on this forecast, Stalin, in his speech at the XV II Congress of the Military Commission (6), named the number of the population of the CCP as 168 million people (at the end of 1933)." And this is a direct confirmation of where Stalin received the figure and that it was not calculated correctly.
                  And the cherry on the cake - Stalin was given information that in 1930 there were 160,5 million people. And in the same book of ROSSPEN, a table is given that TsUNKHU, for 1930, and the figure of 155,9 million received. Do you understand? Any figure can be obtained by calculation. But this is only a calculated figure. I have already given you the "technique" that Andreev used - 1024 unknowns in the system of equations, it is impossible to solve, therefore all unknowns were accepted by the researchers themselves, so there can be no speech about any accuracy, and this despite the fact that Andreev already had a post-knowledge.
                  How to forget this, if this lie has become-indicated in all the so-called country directories

                  I beg you, an adult like a person. I can show you mistakes in "Russia in Figures - 2018" from Rosstat, I even wrote a letter and received thanks in return.
                  Lying is a deliberate distortion of information. The man demanded statistical data, they brought him, he included them in the report, they turned out to be incorrect due to
                  at that time in science there was an official version that increasing the living standard of a population automatically leads to its expanded reproduction,

                  All. Yes, the result of such an error turned out to be far-reaching. But there are no sinister conspiracies here.
                  I refuse to understand you: what is the PURPOSE of this calculation?

                  The purpose of the calculation is to show that one cannot so primitively consider the issues of the dynamics of biological populations (especially of a person where, in addition to biology, the social component is connected), as they are considered here. And not only here.
                  In the USA, let it be as it is, they didn’t hide anything, there are all numbers by years and there is no need to count anything.
                  In addition, they have their own specifics associated with the waves of immigration.

                  Accounting for migration is easy to carry out with the help of the US Department of Homeland Security - a population shortfall due to migrants in the 1930s compared to the 1920s - 430 people. Up to 302-8 million difference still oh how far.
                  Maybe you just need to understand that the mistake of all the "proofs of murder" is that they attribute all the shortfall to the increase in mortality, not taking into account the decline in the birth rate. Well, or then let them begin to prove how the Roosevelt regime "strangled" 8-9 million of its citizens.
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 15 November 2019 10: 19
                    -1
                    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                    The usual one, which was built on the basis of the population according to the 1926 census and the reproduction rate adopted according to the "version that increase in life
                    population level automatically leads to its expanded reproduction
                    ".

                    1. What turned out to be nonsense and confirmed the illiteracy of leaders: neither the growth of wealth, nor population growth, but in fact, the death of millions from starvation
                    2. Poor, naive, ignorant, fearful, trusting, seeing, conscientious, deluded "leaders"
                    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                    No, not the forecast for 1930, but the forecast for the first and second five-year plans based on the population size according to the 1926 census and the reproduction rate adopted according to "the version that an increase in the standard of living of the population automatically leads to its expanded reproduction." So, at least 1930, at least 1934 - there was only one source of numbers.

                    Yeah and no one for 11 years years "did not notice", "did not understand" and did not draw conclusions.

                    Your speculative constructions based on the narrow-minded "logic" what they knew was what they said "are contradicted by WITNESSES, NUMBERS, (see above) FACTS, especially the PROHIBITION of abortions, the classification of statistical data, which you do not see.

                    1. Can you give the numbers of the reports and the statistics reports themselves 27,28,29, 30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37gg Stalin with your numbers and subject to your speculative constructs? No? What then to talk about? AND witnesses They talk about the numbers REALLY transmitted to him.

                    2. You are making from Stalin a very stupid person (which he was not, of course)), who during many years just did not know and did not understand what was happening in his country, going through a terrible turning point. Everyone has seen, but he .... no.
                    Do you understand what you say?
                    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                    К the information provided is not a ROSSPEN book, and the Demoscope site (although something that exists for the money of Soros), but since there is a link to this book,

                    belay Write in Russian WHAT did you want to say? what kind of abracadabra?
                    The figure, by the way, is the page indicated.
                    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                    And in the same place it is accidentally written that "based on this forecast, Stalin, in his speech at the XV II Congress of the Military Commission (6), named the number of the population of the CCP as 168 million people (at the end of 1933)." And this is a direct confirmation of where Stalin received the figure and that it was not calculated correctly.

                    Forecast transmitted to Stalin-present. He is not here . But there is evidence of the opposite.

                    And it could not be: several million people have just died within several. months, of which the center was well aware through the OGPU, the Prosecutor’s Office, the Soviets, statistical agencies, etc.: see reports of the ogpu in Rosarchive.

                    Ahh, they didn’t report to him, right? And that is why at this congress it was announced that tens of millions of peasants stopped starving and began ...wealthy by people.
                    Again, after all, they were simply told upstairs, but what questions are there for them? yes
                    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                    The man demanded statistical data, they brought him, he included them in the report

                    A naive victim of a mistake (albeit very profitable and very timely). "By chance" coincided, yes. ....... So -11 years in a rowyes
                    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                    The purpose of the calculation is to show that it is impossible primitively considersl issues of the dynamics of biological populations

                    But that’s exactly what I thought (see above quote)
                    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                    Migration accounting easy with US Department of Homeland Security

                    Spit on the USA. Everything is clear there and there is no mystery.
                    1. Foul skeptic
                      Foul skeptic 15 November 2019 16: 26
                      0
                      1. What turned out to be nonsense and confirmed the illiteracy of managers

                      Firstly, this population law is not nonsense, it just works in a narrow field of situational factors. Secondly, the literacy of leaders has nothing to do with it; this theory was common in the world in scientific circles at that time.
                      contradict ..., NUMBERS, (see above)

                      Especially these
                      those. in 1937: 168 + 3 * 3 = 177 million
                      177-162 = 15 million LOSS
                      Can you give the numbers of the reports and the statistics reports themselves 27,28,29, 30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37gg Stalin with your numbers and subject to your speculation? No? What then to talk about? And witnesses talk about the numbers REALLY transferred to him

                      And why are you not happy with the information from the source you proposed? The numbers are taken from there.
                      Witnesses - is this an article in a French émigré magazine based supposedly on a tape recording of the voice of Kurman, who had already died 23 years before the article was released?
                      Naive victim of error (true, very profitable and very on time)

                      What nonsense about the profitability of error? How can it be beneficial?
                      But that’s exactly what I thought

                      What are you talking about? Who counted?
                      those. in 1937: 168 + 3 * 3 = 177 million
                      177-162 = 15 million LOSS
                      Anyone who looks at population dynamics like this?
                      Spit on the USA. Everything is clear there and there is no mystery

                      If you understand it, then why is it incomprehensible here? Or you still do not understand.

                      Once again I explain my position - you will not find in any report that I deny hunger and increased mortality due to hunger, repressive activity and increased mortality due to repressive activity. But I am against such bookkeepers
                      those. in 1937: 168 + 3 * 3 = 177 million
                      177-162 = 15 million LOSS
                      against when they themselves attribute their goals and motives for others.
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 16 November 2019 07: 58
                        0
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Firstly, this population law is not nonsense, it just works in a narrow field of situational factors ..

                        I am writing about FACTS 1930-1934, not about theories. I repeat once again: there was no growth in wealth, nor population growth,
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Secondly, the literacy of leaders has nothing to do with it, this theory was generally in the world in scientific circles at that time.

                        Ahhh this literacy led to a million starvation mortality .. WHAT are you saying, huh ?! belay
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Especially these
                        those. in 1937: 168 + 3 * 3 = 177 million
                        177-162 = 15 million LOSS

                        All
                        - strictly according to Stalin: his 1930,1934,1935
                        - according to evidence (160 million),
                        by TsUNHU (160 million)
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        And why are you not happy with the information from the source you proposed? The numbers are taken from there.

                        I DO NOT SEE the information I requested: submit 11 statistical reports to Stalin with an increase of 3 million every year.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Witnesses - is this an article in a French émigré magazine based supposedly on a tape recording of the voice of Kurman, who had already died 23 years before the article was released?

                        You have nothing at all. In addition to chatter, of course
                        And I also have a decision by them to PROHIBIT abortions and to SECRET statistics. What you have not noticed for the third time ....
                        You also do not stubbornly answer: did the leadership know nothing, did not see, did not understand for MANY years what was happening with demography? And sincerely talked about ... wealthy peasants in terrible February 33 g?
                        Silence is eloquent.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        What nonsense about the profitability of error? How can it be beneficial?

                        Not errors, but intentional lies. And the lie will come always, when it is necessary to hide the outbreak of disasters and get away from responsibility. All the upper classes do this. There is such a law, "population". lol
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        What are you talking about? Who counted?
                        those. in 1937: 168 + 3 * 3 = 177 million
                        177-162 = 15 million LOSS
                        Anyone who looks at population dynamics like this?

                        The one who talked about this in 1930-1934,1935. Each year, 3 million. WHAT is not clear?
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        If you understand it, then why is it incomprehensible here? Or do you still unclear.

                        You did not understand the subject of my misunderstanding: and these are not numbers (with them, just everything is clear)
                        But something else is not clear: how could such a lie be so shamelessly!
                      2. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 17 November 2019 11: 10
                        0
                        WHAT are you saying, huh ?!

                        Simple things that you can’t understand or no desire to understand, but rather both
                        I DO NOT SEE the information I requested: submit 11 statistical reports to Stalin with an increase of 3 million every year.

                        As predictable ... start demanding what is not.
                        So provide them, it is you who say that such reports were to him annually.
                        I say (and others, including in the source you proposed) that three million is a growth calculated once for two five-year periods and accepted as one for two five-year periods.
                        What you have not noticed for the third time ....
                        You also do not stubbornly answer: did the leadership know nothing, did not see, did not understand for MANY years what was happening with demography?

                        Well? Can I tell you about abortion? In order to understand why they were banned, one must understand why they were allowed and what problems arose in connection with this permission. And for this you need to read the doctors of that time, and not the demoscope website. In the absence of a culture of pregnancy planning and contraception, women perceived abortion as a "substitute for contraception". With all the ensuing negative consequences of such a "substitution". All the time until the prohibition of abortions, explanatory work was carried out with women, both in medical establishments and up to mobile propaganda teams giving lectures "on the topic" at enterprises, institutions and in rural areas. In 1935, the first plant in the USSR for the production of "mechanical" contraceptives was opened. In 1936, non-medical abortion was banned. They allowed it only when a generation of women grew up who already knew that they could be protected by methods that were less damaging to health.
                        We had to classify the statistics when we figured out that the calculation was made according to overstated indicators and turned out to be very overstated. And homegrown accountants like you, counting exactly the same
                        "168 + 3 * 3 = 177 million
                        177-162 = 15 million LOST "
                        because otherwise, because of their ignorance, they could not have counted, would have derived exactly the same ridiculous figures. Not understanding why such a calculation is not true.
                        And if in a quiet time it would be possible to explain this mistake to people (in the 60s and 70s it was easy) and they would understand it, then in the 30s, when there was famine and repression, all the "shortage" would be attributed to hunger and repression. What's wrong. But there was a mass of people in the country who were interested in the fact that the inhabitants began to think that way. That's the whole reason for the secrecy.
                        Not errors, but intentional lies

                        Um, so the planning authorities were deliberately lying? )) So you take the side of those who later "lynched" them at 37. If you start again about the fact that these figures came not from the planning authorities, but from Stalin, then all the same "submit 11 reports of statistics to Stalin." Moreover, be sure to color scans with a resolution of at least 300 dpi))
                        Ask any modern demographer, he will tell you that in order to calculate population growth in the first and second five-year periods, a simplified methodology was adopted with the setting of inflated variables, which in any situation would show overestimated figures. This is mistake
                        But something else is not clear: how could such a lie be so shamelessly!

                        Tell me, when you recently wrote about the "appeal of the Petersburg workers" - did you shamelessly tell a lie, or were you just not in the subject? It was exactly the same in that case.
                      3. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 17 November 2019 12: 50
                        -1
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Simple thingsthat you can’t understand or have no desire to understand, but rather both

                        I do not see them: you have nothing to understand.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        As predictable ... start demanding what is not.
                        So provide them, it is you who say that such reports were to him annually.

                        belay
                        Myself, remember? Nope:
                        Vile skeptic Well were given the person has incorrect data, he voiced them.
                        Or with a Russian problem?
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        In the absence of a pregnancy planning culture and methods of contraception, women perceived abortion as a "substitute for contraception". With all the ensuing negative consequences of such a "substitution".

                        yes yes and it took 16 years, to understand .... "lack of culture. lol
                        Moreover, it did not prevent ... to rejoice at the growth in 1926 and "horrified" after ... ten years.
                        You are ridiculous, excuse me lol .
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        We had to classify the statistics when we figured out that the calculation was made according to overstated indicators and turned out to be very overstated. And homegrown accountants like you, counting exactly the same
                        "168 + 3 * 3 = 177 million
                        177-162 = 15 million LOST "
                        because otherwise, because of their ignorance, they could not have counted, would have derived exactly the same ridiculous figures. Not understanding why such a calculation is not true.
                        And if in a quiet time it would be possible to explain this mistake to people (in the 60s and 70s it was easy) and they would understand it, then in the 30s, when there was famine and repression, all the "shortage" would be attributed to hunger and repression. What's wrong. But in the country there was a mass of people who were interested in the fact that the townsfolk began to think that way. That's all reason for secrecy.

                        1. What is so.
                        2. No one is interested in what a bizarre brew was brewing in the heads of the tops, as a cause of lies: people HAVE THE RIGHT TO KNOW THE TRUTH, they are not cattle and nobody's own. it's up to you to inform her or not. am
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Um, so the planning authorities were deliberately lying? )) So you take the side of those who later "lynched" them at 37. If you start again about the fact that these figures came not from the planning authorities, but from Stalin, then all the same "submit 11 reports of statistics to Stalin." Moreover, be sure to color scans with a resolution of at least 300 dpi))
                        Ask any modern demographer, he will tell you that in order to calculate population growth in the first and second five-year periods, a simplified methodology was adopted with the setting of inflated variables, which in any situation would show overestimated figures. This is mistake

                        Yeah, i.e. You are THIRD times stubbornly not noticing my answer. I repeat:
                        You also do not stubbornly answer: did the leadership know nothing, did not see, did not understand for MANY years what was going on with demography? And sincerely talked about ... wealthy peasants in terrible February 33 g?
                        Silence is eloquent.

                        Those. it was blind, deaf, slow-witted and did not understand, did not feel and did not know WHAT is happening in the country at the BREAKTHROUGH? belay What parallel reality did they live in then?

                        And the data is classified ... in early 30sbecause in .... 1937 realized that they were wrong lol.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Tell me, when you recently wrote about the "appeal of the St. Petersburg workers" - you shamelessly told a lie or just were not in the subject? That was exactly the same in that case.

                        There is no archival file, liar.
                      4. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 18 November 2019 18: 52
                        0
                        Myself, remember? Nope:

                        I remember. I didn’t mention anywhere what you demanded and what was redirected to you
                        You can give the numbers of reports and the statistics reports themselves 27,28,29, 30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37gg

                        When I wrote about
                        Well, they gave the person incorrect data, he voiced them

                        It was meant
                        The man demanded statistical data, because he was preparing the report, they brought him, he included them in the report, they turned out to be incorrect

                        There was no where he could get the exact data from, even knowing about hunger, it was impossible to quantify its consequences. Such at that time was accounting. In principle, Andreev and Darskaya should be trusted, since they themselves once referred to them?
                        Until 1933, no information was collected on the coverage of the territory by the registry office. After 1933, in reports containing information on the number of births and deaths, the percentage of coverage was indicated, however, not for all territories. All estimates of registry office coverage contained in archival materials prior to this year are based on indirect data.

                        The incompleteness of statistics for all the pre-war years up to 1941 was due to two reasons: firstly, the presence of territories where there was no accounting at all or it was not conducted all year round, and secondly, the incomplete registration of births and deaths, where such accounting was carried out. Estimates of the proportion of the population covered by registration differ among different authors (Kurman - 90%, CSB -80%, note mine)
                        According to the summary for 1934, even in the regions that were considered covered by registration, it was actually carried out only on a part of the territory (from 99,3% in the cities of Belarus to 44,1% in the rural Asian part of the RSFSR and 7% in rural Uzbekistan) . In 1935, of the 5040 monthly reports of registry offices that were supposed to come from the Tajik SSR, only 1266 were actually received.

                        That is, there could not be a correct figure from the REGISTRY OFFICES, since incomplete accounting. Therefore, an ASSESSMENT of population movement was made

                        Current estimates of the population in the 30s deviated from reality, as they were based on exaggerated data on natural growth. Planning authorities generally relied on their own unqualified estimates and projections of the country's population.
                        This led to an exaggeration of the natural increase, and therefore the current estimates of the population. TsUNHU employees knew about the underreporting but the results of the checks, but did not introduce any amendments to the existing results of registration of natural movement, because they could not or did not dare to quantify it.

                        1. What is so.
                        2. No one is interested in what a bizarre brew was brewing in the heads of the tops, as a cause of lies: people HAVE THE RIGHT TO KNOW THE TRUTH, they are not cattle and nobody's own. it's up to you to inform her or not.

                        1) If so, then you also agree that Roosevelt has genocide 30 million of his citizens.
                        2) Yeah, that’s how the states in the world even now, not to mention the second quarter of the 20th century, all present to their citizens right on a plate and do not secret anything. Do not forget to direct your righteous anger at them.
                        yes, and it took 16 (!) years to understand .... "lack of culture.

                        Mdaaa ... it is necessary for you 16 years to understand something
                        It took 16 years not to understand the lack of culture immediately, but to organize and carry out work on the sexual education of women and to begin the spread of contraception.
                        the leadership that - did not know anything, did not see, did not understand for MANY years what was going on

                        And when, for example, Putin on a straight line or after another "landing" is sincerely surprised at what is happening on the ground, he also does not know, does not see and does not understand?
                        Have you ever been the leader of something large, with a large number of staff and an extensive organizational structure?
                        There is the number of archives

                        So not in the subject)))
                        And what, what is the archive number?
                        In this case is the issue of the newspaper "Vperyod", which contains this appeal. But only. I have already asked you, since when did Messrs. Bogdanov and Smirnov become workers in St. Petersburg?
                        That is exactly the same way something may turn out to be the head of something.
                      5. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 19 November 2019 09: 56
                        -1
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        It was meant
                        Man demanded statistical data, therefore that prepared the report, they brought him, he included them in the report, they turned out to be wrong

                        Yeah, that means you have a problem with Russian: "once they gave" and "they gave, these are words that are different in meaning.

                        Although, of course, you are lying: because he was given several times, at least: in 1930, 1934 and 1935, exactly
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        No where he had the exact data to come from, even knowing about hunger, could not be estimated its effects are quantified.

                        Of course, "it is impossible": thousands of reports of the OGPU, the prosecutor's office, advice on the mass death of people with cannibalism, from the vast territory of Kavkaz-Verny to Ryazan-Gomel, "did not give" a reason to at least keep silent, but gave a reason to shout about ... "successes in demography. yes

                        "They didn't know", yes, that's why they issued a decree of the Central Committee and the government, driving tens of millions starving back to extinct villages and cities, preventing them from being saved in more bread-covered areas.
                        Do you hear yourself? No.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        That is, there could not be a correct figure from the REGISTRY OFFICES, since incomplete accounting. Therefore, an ASSESSMENT of population movement was made

                        Yes, but only one thing was not clear: exactly how many millions died and how many millions were not born, but it was definitely known that it was many millions
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        1) If so, then you also agree that Roosevelt has genocide 30 million of his citizens.

                        No. In the USA - EVERYTHING IS UNDERSTANDING AND TRANSPARENT,
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        2) Yeah, that’s how the states in the world even now, not to mention the second quarter of the 20th century, all present to their citizens right on a plate and do not secret anything. Do not forget to direct your righteous anger at them.

                        Asha, Show me where they are silent about the death of their 7 million citizens for 10 months of a peaceful year. Start: 1), 2) ......
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Mdaaa ... it is necessary for you 16 years to understand something
                        It took 16 years not to understand the lack of culture immediately, but to organize and carry out work on the sexual education of women and to begin the spread of contraception.

                        You weren’t even 50 years old to understand
                        1. first conduct training and introduce contraception, and then allow abortion
                        2. in the bone heads of the "educators" such a madness could not arise.
                        3. only when the bone dashed with all the dope, then they introduced a ban
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        And when, for example, Putin on a straight line or after another "landing" is sincerely surprised at what is happening on the ground, he also does not know, does not see and does not understand?
                        Have you ever been the leader of something large, with a large number of staff and an extensive organizational structure?

                        1.Do you pretend? Do you compare a world-wide demographic catastrophe with official theft?
                        2. The director is building. company.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        So not in the subject)))
                        And what, what is the archive number?
                        In this case is the issue of the newspaper "Vperyod", which contains this appeal. But only. I have already asked you, since when did Messrs. Bogdanov and Smirnov become workers in St. Petersburg?

                        So you are not at all a copegagen:

                        Materials of the XNUMXst meeting of the Extraordinary Assembly
                        authorized factories of Petrograd on March 13

                        Protocol Record

                        Representatives of the following enterprises are present:

                        Putilovsky plant, Semyannikovsky, Obukhov, Pipe, Baltic,
                        Alexander Mechanical, Gunpowder, Siemens and Halske,
                        Westinghouse, Locomotive workshops of Mykolayiv railroad [rail], railcar
                        workshops (behind the Moscow outpost), car building workshops
                        Nikol [Aevsky] rail [ogo], Locomotive workshops (beyond Narva
                        outpost), Carriage workshops Sev [ero] -Zap [hell] gland [ezny]
                        Dor [ogi], Factories: Pal, Maxwell, Pylinin, Bligken and Robinson, Electric
                        stations, printing houses: Golike, "Kopeyka", "Slovo", First State,
                        Sixth State
                        .

                        AND THE FOURTH TIME I will not deny myself the pleasure of hearing your silence in response to simple questions:
                        did the leadership know nothing, did not see, did not understand for MANY years what was going on with demography? And sincerely talked about ... wealthy peasants in terrible February 33 g?
                        What parallel reality did they live in then?
                        yes
                      6. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 19 November 2019 10: 38
                        0
                        I’m not even voicing my thoughts to you, I’m giving you an assessment of the then statistics from the books of researchers-demographers, but this does not suit you.
                        conduct training and contraception first, and then allow abortion

                        Abortion at the hospital was less evil than abortion at home. Therefore, I had to resort to such a measure.
                        No. IN THE USA - EVERYTHING IS UNDERSTANDING AND TRANSPARENT

                        And what do you understand?
                        7 million citizens in 10 months

                        that's why they kept secret and did the right thing, because such "calculations" would certainly appear. And about 12 would have appeared, And about 13. What is really there. It is difficult to count where there is no data only for those who have a conscience. The rest is easy.
                        The director is building. the company

                        And you want to say that you did not encounter the provision of incorrect information that you relayed to you? Or a two-man fence installation company? Then maybe
                        So you are not at all a copegagen

                        wrote a man who, in fact, before that wrote that
                        You are the Declaration of the Fourth Extraordinary Congress of Soviets
                        I - it will not bother you to tell where this "appeal" appeared
                        You - At the congress of the so-called tips appeared, it’s written

                        laughing laughing laughing
                        And now I had to google it and already
                        I meeting of the Extraordinary Meeting of Commissioners

                        But that still doesn't get you into the subject. Or they would have known that the appeal was written by Bogdanov, voiced by Smirnov (and what interesting biographies), listened to by representatives, met with ambiguity. But since the Mensheviks, pushed away from the trough, have to swing the boat at all costs, it was distributed throughout factories and factories in the form of proclamations and published for wide coverage in the Menshevik newspaper Vperyod (after the 4th Congress of Soviets). She never appeared at the congress itself, since Mr. Bogdanov never set it as a goal.
                      7. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 19 November 2019 12: 42
                        -1
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        I’m not even voicing my thoughts to you, I’m giving you an assessment of the then statistics from the books of researchers-demographers, but this does not suit you.

                        And I brought you demographers, you yourself and common sense_You are not satisfied with ANYTHING.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Abortion at the hospital was less evil than abortion at home. Therefore, I had to resort to such a measure.

                        According to medical indications, they were always in hospitals.
                        But in 1920 there was NOTHING to FEED people as a result of the "achievements" of the Soviet government (wild hunger since 1918), read the abortion order: in view of the SEVERE mat of the woman's position.
                        They didn't give a damn about women, as such: In 20 g, "extra" children interfered - they allowed abortion, in 35 g - there weren't enough working hands - and they were banned. But no, demography is NOT subject to bone heads. It was easy to create a disaster ...
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        And what do you understand?

                        All. And you something, no? belay
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        that's why they kept secret and did the right thing, because such "calculations" would certainly appear. And about 12 would have appeared, And about 13. What is really there. It is difficult to count where there is no data only for those who have a conscience. The rest is easy.

                        This is not private. it’s up to the people to decide what they know and what not. People had the right to it: they are dying and suffering, and resolvers.

                        From which there would have been no dust left in the free election at the same time.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        And you want to say that you did not encounter the provision of incorrect information that you relayed to you? Or a two-man fence installation company? Then maybe

                        What are you talking about: I'm not a dumb ass to broadcast the obvious nonsense, my duty is to know, otherwise .... belay request Fences, so fences. lol ...
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        You are the Declaration of the Fourth Extraordinary Congress of Soviets
                        I - it will not bother you to tell where this "appeal" appeared
                        You - At the congress of the so-called tips appeared, it’s written


                        And now I had to google it and already
                        I meeting of the Extraordinary Meeting of Commissioners

                        I'm glad you use Google. yes

                        But do not carry nonsense: my source is primary sources (and I advise you) of the archives, where there are ALL the materials of the ChSUFZ, from where the passages 1 and 2 are given (TsGA SPb. F. 3390. Op. 1. D. 13. L. 1).

                        declaration accepted by ChSUFZ BEFORE the so-called Congress of Soviets, was spread out and the Congress of Soviets is thus known (appeared).
                        Your rate
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        the Mensheviks, pushed away from the trough, must swing the boat at all costs,

                        -the smallest that is interesting.
                        An interesting fact is the assessment of WORKING crimes of power
                      8. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 19 November 2019 13: 35
                        0
                        But in 1920 there was NOTHING to FEED people as a result of the "achievements" of the Soviet government (wild hunger since 1918), read the abortion order: in view of the SEVERE mat of the woman's position.

                        how do you perceive information distorted, you are simply amazed.
                        Abortions were not introduced in order to limit the birth rate, but in order to save 4% of women who, regardless of whether he will be officially allowed or not, will make it clandestine and die from complications. There is no need to weave financial position - this factor would be the same whether abortion would be legalized or not.
                        I'm not a dumb ass to broadcast obvious bullshit

                        and if it is not obvious, then relay?
                        and the congress of councils is thus known

                        really? and in the minutes of the congress of councils about this no gu-gu.
                        Your rate the least that is interesting
                        An interesting fact is the evaluation by WORKERS

                        So these are not only my assessments of the activities of this Menshevik organization. This is said by modern historians and, what is most amusing, by the participants themselves. The same Berg or Denike. And, in general, the fact of assessment is the fact of assessment (and I already wrote that it is ambiguous). You wrote - the workers wrote (and it begins with the words "We, workers"). Tell me the workers who wrote it.
                        This declaration is a prime example of political populism. Only. And no workers have ever stood behind its creation.
                      9. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 20 November 2019 10: 18
                        0
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        So these are not only my assessments of the activities of this Menshevik organization. This is said by modern historians and, what is most amusing, by the participants themselves. The same Berg or Denike. And, in general, the fact of assessment is the fact of assessment (and I already wrote that it is ambiguous). You wrote - the workers wrote (and it begins with the words "We, workers"). Tell me the workers who wrote it.
                        This declaration is a prime example of political populism. Only. And no workers have ever stood behind its creation.

                        Declaration ACCEPTED by ChSUFZ, workers - with factories listed above in the same document there are also their SURNAMES.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        how do you perceive information distorted, you are simply amazed.
                        Abortions were not introduced in order to limit the birth rate, but in order to save 4% of women who, regardless of whether he will be officially allowed or not, will make it clandestine and die from complications. There is no need to weave financial position - this factor would be the same whether abortion would be legalized or not.

                        They didn't give a damn about women: who helped millions of women who died of starvation in 1922?
                        From the Order:
                        difficult economic conditions of the present still force some women to decide on this operation, decides:
                        I. It is allowed to carry out a free operation to terminate a pregnancy in the setting of Soviet hospitals, where its maximum safety is ensured.

                        Do you hear, no? DESTRUCTION, HUNGER forced the "leaders" of the "people's" state to get rid of the "freeloaders".

                        FIRST in the world (other countries were "Turaks", yes). Abortions have grown TEN TIMES, there was a CATASTROPHE, when there are more abortions in the only country in the world than in the WHOLE world.

                        And, of course, the "fight" against abortions in the Soviet way: we have BANNED statistics on abortions since 1929. We closed our eyes and the problem disappeared! good
                        2. Yes, yes, the mat the position of a woman with a child and without is "IDEAL" for a woman and the state lol laughing
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        really? and in the minutes of the congress of councils about this no gu-gu.

                        And what are the Bolsheviks "gu-gu" about? Everywhere, gross lies, violence, falsifications, treachery and betrayal: read the materials of the ChSUFZ (they worked in 1919).
                        Acceleration, executions, fake elections from dead souls, police and dictatorship: all the dirt of "power" out: with facts, names, etc.
                      10. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 20 November 2019 18: 37
                        0
                        Declaration ACCEPTED by ChSUFZ, workers from the plants listed above, in the same document there are also their SURNAMES
                        And what are the Bolsheviks "gu-gu" about? ... read the materials of the ChSUFZ (they worked in 1919)

                        You understand that you have reduced the St. Petersburg workers to six dozen people opposition party? Or don't you understand?
                        I read the materials of the ChSU FZ back before our conversation (this is clear already because I knew how this "declaration" appeared). You understand that the meetings are thematically prepared by org. committee, at meetings workers are just extras, who are skillfully warmed up. You see the same thing in any modern elections. In order to understand the ins and outs of the CSU FZ, one must read the memoirs of the Mensheviks, where they describe their activities without cuts. The same Dubois. Or modern researchers of the labor movement. From ours though Churakov, from foreign the path of the same Garvey.
                        "Ni gu-gu" does not mean "they did not say," but "did not know."
                        They didn't give a damn about women: who helped millions of women who died of starvation in 1922?

                        our song is good. Even according to Andreev and Darskaya, the supermortality of persons of both sexes in 1922 was 1,4 million. That is, they took it and increased it by at least 2,5 times, which is really embarrassing. And then we continue to lie shamelessly about the lack of help and measures to reduce the effects of hunger.
                        difficult economic conditions of the present

                        in isolation from the full text, you pulled out the phrase and meditate on it. But where are the Bolsheviks who hide everything in the world? There, honestly recognize the difficult economic conditions. And also
                        THERE in the document abortions are called EVIL.
                        Affirms the need to FIGHT them.
                        Confidence is expressed that abortion will gradually DISAPPEAR.
                        FIRST in the world (other countries were "Turaks", yes). Abortions increased TEN TIMES

                        I have repeatedly brought you documents showing that the doctors of the Russian Empire advocated abortion.
                        I have already told you more than once that other countries are probably "Turaks" now, since they have allowed abortions.
                        The fact that abortion has grown dozens of times only shows how many miscarriages had been done before on their own, either through attendants or underground.
                        Yes, yes, mat the position of a woman with a child and without is "IDEAL" for a woman and the state

                        It is not the same with or without a child, it is equally legal abortion or not (and that’s exactly what I have written, it’s just that the Chukchi is not a reader, the Chukchi is a writer)
                      11. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 21 November 2019 10: 33
                        -1
                        [quote = Vile skeptic] Do you understand that you have reduced the St. Petersburg workers to six dozen people of the opposition party? Or don't you understand?
                        I read the materials of the ChSU FZ back before our conversation (this is clear already because I knew how this "declaration" appeared). . [/ quote]
                        Do you understand that your assessments, the assessments of the notorious apoget of notorious bankrupts, are not interesting?

                        We discuss FACTS

                        I spent several days reading the materials of the ChSUFZ and long before you: there the WORKERS give the FACTS of crimes, lies, violence of manipulation of power.
                        Refute them point by point. [quote = Vile Skeptic] our song is good. Even according to Andreev and Darskaya, the supermortality rate of persons of both sexes in 1922 was 1,4 million. That is, they took it and overestimated it by at least 2,5 times, why should we be ashamed of it. And further we continue shamelessly lie about the lack of help and measures to reduce the effects of hunger. [/ quote]
                        1. 5 million counts in victims of famine, recognized by TSB councils. liar
                        2. The biggest help from the so-called. The "authorities" would have shot themselves. By doing this, they would have saved millions and millions more, both in 1925 and in 1933 [quote = Vile skeptic], apart from the full text, you pulled out the phrase and talk about it. And where are the Bolsheviks hiding everything in the world? Vaughn honestly admit the difficult economic conditions. And also
                        THERE in the document abortions are called EVIL.
                        Affirms the need STRUGGLE with them.
                        Confidence is expressed that abortion will gradually DISAPPEAR. [/ Quote]
                        1. This is a RECOGNITION of the results of THEIR "activity". And how to hide them if EVERYONE lives in IT?

                        And the entourage of LYING chatter around "evil" is their usual hypocritical pharisaism.

                        2. Facts, don't you see? Abortions did not disappear, but became the CATASTROPHY of the country - this is the result of their "struggle"

                        [quote = Vile skeptic] I have already told you more than once that other countries are probably "Turaks" now, since they have allowed abortion. [/ quote]
                        Yeah, but in FORTY YEARS, after the "leaders". The difference is NOT getting it? And even now there, with huge reservations, the same England and Germany, to help. [Quote = Vile skeptic] The fact that abortions have grown tenfold only shows how many miscarriages were done on their own, either through attendants, or clandestinely. [/ Quote ]
                        unsubstantiated nonsense: many SAVED children, since it is impossible [quote = Vile skeptic] It is not the same with a child or without, it is equally legalized abortion or not / quote]
                        With the ban, children are born, with all flowed out, if it did not.
                        [quote = Vile skeptic] it's just not a Chukchi reader, Chukchi writer) [/ quote]
                        You have a rare nationality, I must admit, but why are you telling me her? belay request
                      12. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 21 November 2019 19: 15
                        0
                        Refute them point by point

                        They refute themselves. It is enough to know that for the world in which they accuse the Bolsheviks in 1918, in 1917, Mr. Smirnov personally rallied in the squares. Ordinary political prostitution. So I better refute you.
                        In the topic "Anniversary of the Great October Socialist Revolution" of 07.11.2019/XNUMX/XNUMX, you wrote that:
                        1) This declaration appeared 4 emergency congress of councils.
                        At the congress, the so-called tips appeared, it’s written

                        2) Workers wrote this declaration
                        WORKERS wrote

                        Which directly shows your lack of knowledge on this topic. Since such statements are not true. And the fact that you, after being dipped into your amateurism, and you got with the help of Google Index to reading the minutes of the meeting, did not make you smarter.
                        5 million counts in victims of hunger, recognized by the councils in the TSB. liar

                        Hush hush...
                        Here is what you wrote
                        to millions starved women in 1922 г

                        five million, this is for four years from 20 to 23 and of both sexes.
                        and in 1922, 5324-3904 = 1420 thousand people. supermortality of both sexes.
                        Yeah, but in FORTY YEARS, after the "leaders". The difference is NOT getting it?

                        And what is the difference? But in nothing. You are again completely off topic and trying to judge serious things.
                        I have repeatedly brought you documents showing that the doctors of the Russian Empire advocated abortion.
                        unsubstantiated nonsense: many SAVED children, since it’s impossible

                        and I look at your thought, you prove in this proposal, the direct arguments are so convincing. laughing
                        With the ban, children are born, with all flowed out, if it did not.

                        With the ban, fruit expulsion is done either on their own or with the grandmother. If only pre-revolutionary gynecologists would be revered.
                      13. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 22 November 2019 11: 09
                        -1
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic

                        They refute themselves. It is enough to know that for the world in which they accuse the Bolsheviks in 1918, in 1917, Mr. Smirnov personally rallied in the squares. Ordinary political prostitution. So I better refute you.
                        In the topic "Anniversary of the Great October Socialist Revolution" of 07.11.2019/XNUMX/XNUMX, you wrote that:
                        1) This declaration appeared 4 emergency congress of councils.
                        At the congress, the so-called tips appeared, it’s written

                        2) Workers wrote this declaration
                        WORKERS wrote

                        Which directly shows your lack of knowledge on this topic. Since such statements are not true. And the fact that you, after being dipped into your amateurism, and you got with the help of Google Index to reading the minutes of the meeting, did not make you smarter.

                        1. easy-going brought by the occupiers from Switzerland

                        2. The declaration was adopted at the CONGRESS of authorized workers.
                        Published. It is known, thus, the so-called. "congress". Have you denied that, liar? No.

                        3.It hasn’t reached you yet request I don’t give a damn about what you think about me and how you value it.
                        Accordingly, I have no purpose to prove my knowledge of the topic before the conversation. Who are you, to me, to do this? What do you think of yourself? belay lol .
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic

                        Hush hush...
                        Here is what you wrote
                        millions of women starving to death in 1922

                        five million, this is for four years from 20 to 23 and of both sexes.
                        and in 1922, 5324-3904 = 1420 thousand people. supermortality of both sexes.

                        1. Hunger is called "1921-22" and his peak was fall-spring 21-22 g and divide by 4 years evenly it fool
                        2. Central Statistical Bureau: population deficit for the period from 1920 to 1922 equal to 5 million people
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        And what is the difference? But in nothing. You are again completely off topic and trying to judge serious things.

                        If the difference hasn’t reached you, then there’s nothing to talk about with you: you are an absolute zero, and I’m not an alcoholic.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        and I look at your thought, you prove in this proposal, the direct arguments are so convincing.

                        Do you prove that the earth revolves around the sun? yes What for?! Do not agree, and yes. with yes These
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        With the ban, fruit expulsion is done either on their own or with the grandmother. If only pre-revolutionary gynecologists would be revered.

                        The ban increases the number of births - read at least something.
                      14. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 22 November 2019 13: 24
                        0
                        easy behavior brought by the occupiers from Switzerland

                        Those whom you call "occupiers", Messrs. Smirnov and Borisov were not brought from "Switzerland"
                        And by the way, why are you using the word "occupier". An occupier is a participant in an act of occupation from the occupying country. That is, the occupier always has citizenship (allegiance) of the occupying country, not the occupied country.
                        Declaration adopted at the congress of authorized workers

                        Do not sculpt a hunchback, you wrote another))
                        "The Fourth Extraordinary Congress of Soviets"
                        I ask where it originally appeared and you again
                        "At the congress of TN Councils appeared, it is written"

                        This you have already learned about the CSU FZ, which is the "Extraordinary Meeting of Commissioners from Factories and Plants"
                        Which is a "meeting", not a "congress". And not "advice". And do not even start to soar about what you meant it. You wouldn't have written then "so-called councils ", your illogical hatred has played a cruel joke on you here - or is it you about the CSU ZF so dismissively, the so-called? laughing
                        1. The famine is called "1921-22", and its peak was in the autumn-spring of 21-22 and divided by 4 years evenly is fool
                        2. Central Statistical Bureau: population deficit for the period from 1920 to 1922 equal to 5 million people

                        And again sculpt the hunchback, you wrote another))):
                        millions of starvation women in 1922 г

                        No need to jump on the population deficit for 1920-1922 (3 years), do I dispute this somewhere? I say that in 1922, millions (and this is 2 or more) of women did not die of starvation, thereby you overestimated the situation that happened at least 2,5 times.
                        Moreover, I do not evenly divide anywhere 5 into four years. Show me the division operation in this laughing :
                        in 1922, 5324-3904 = 1420 thousand people. supermortality of both sexes

                        The ban increases the number of births - read at least something.

                        And again the same rake ... laughing
                        I denied somewhere that the ban would increase the number of births? I said that the ban would increase the number of exorcisms. And Yaroslavna's "lament" that the permission of abortions lowers the birth rate and thus can significantly affect the demographic situation is not confirmed by practice, it is enough to look at the dynamics of the birth rate since 1920. Even your favorite dump, Demoscope, has the same opinion on this matter:
                        Demographers have long known that there is no direct connection between the birth rate and the prevalence of abortion, especially now, when there are other ways to regulate childbearing ...
                        His meagerness just indicates that women continued to regulate the number of births, and with an extremely weak culture of contraception in the USSR at that time this was possible only due to the widespread proliferation of clandestine abortions.
                        The birth rate is determined by the intentions of people, and not by the means by which they realize these intentions. Means are different, abortion is only one of them, now it is already very archaic. Legislation does not affect abortion prevalence, but procedure safety[39]. Prohibited abortion is much more dangerous than permitted.
                      15. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 22 November 2019 14: 53
                        -1
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Those whom you call "occupiers", Messrs. Smirnov and Borisov didn't bring from "switzerland"

                        no, of course: they brought simply. From switzerland
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        And by the way, why are you using the word "occupier". An occupier is a participant in an act of occupation from the occupying country. That is, the occupier always has citizenship (citizenship) of the occupying country, not the occupied country.

                        belay
                        AND? GERMAN invaders and brought. jammed?
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        This you have already learned about the CSU FZ, which is the "Extraordinary Meeting of Commissioners from Factories and Plants"

                        I am brought a declaration with the CSU (about which you are neither sleeping, nor digging) and ... just found out? belay lol
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        And do not even start to soar about what you meant it. Then you would not have written "so-called advice", your illogical hatred played a cruel joke on you here - or are you so dismissive about the CSU ZF, the so-called?

                        1 "Sculpt, soar, women's clothing" - free me from this: look for a partner in the bunk and the city - club elsewhere
                        2. Do not burden me with your bizarre visions: a declaration was born - at the ChSU, appeared - at the SS (which he could not write to himself) request
                        didn’t reach even 4 GO times? lol
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        No need to jump on the population deficit for 1920-1922 (3 years), do I dispute this somewhere? I say that in 1922, millions (and this is 2 or more) of women did not die of starvation, thereby you overestimated the situation that happened at least 2,5 times.
                        Moreover, I do not evenly divide anywhere 5 into four years. Show me in this division operation

                        Killing by hunger, not scarcity. By stupidity (what happened) or intentionally, not the essence.
                        More than 2 million women died in 21 and 22 g. And most likely. and more, because NOBODY counted them.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Have I denied somewhere that the ban will increase the number of births? I said the ban increase the number of fruit exiles

                        "deuce again". those. lie or sclerosis: itata: Foul skeptic
                        With prohibition, fruit exile is made
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        ... And Yaroslavna's "lament" that the permission of abortions lowers the birth rate and thus can significantly affect the demographic situation is not confirmed by practice, it is enough to look at the dynamics of the birth rate since 1920. Even your favorite dump, Demoscope, has the same opinion on this matter:
                        Demographers have long known that there is no direct relationship between fertility and the prevalence of abortion, especially nowwhen there are other ways to control childbearing ...

                        "Now"?! We are talking about then.
                        When there was no Soviet ugly abortion culture. And when she is like a cancerous tumor. spread across the country when the prosperous NEP peasants passed then
                        At B. Urlanis there was every reason to believethat a decree banning abortion was adopted, “on the assumption that the continued spread of abortion threatened with even greater declining birth rates»

                        What is the dynamics of the birth rate coffer?
                        And, as is quite rightly written in the Demoscope (an excellent publication, compared to Bolshevik. Lying garbage)
                        Birth rate is determined by intentions people, not the means by which they carry out these intentions.
                        .
                        And intentions were determined by CIRCUMSTANCES and living conditions as indicated to you from the abortion order: the plight of people, primarily women: giving birth in hunger, in the cold, in barracks for hundreds of people, in cellars and attics, no one wanted.
                        And then they got used to it, with a 2,1 child.

                        Yes, and again: determined by intentions people, not means
                        Those. under the "accursed" tsarism, people WANTED to have children, but under "people's power, already NO, did not want to

                        these are the ones that “life has become more fun” and “the population began to multiply much faster than in the old days.

                        drowned in this :: Lies, hypocrisy, nonsense, stupidity.
                      16. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 22 November 2019 17: 54
                        0
                        GERMAN invaders and brought

                        I misunderstood you, about the German invaders, I agree with the remark, except for that part about ,, ok - Messrs. Smirnov and Borisov themselves got)))
                        I brought a declaration с Csu

                        and at the same time they gave her away
                        T.N. tips

                        laughing Himself is not funny?
                        a declaration was born - at the CSU, appeared - at the SS

                        well yes well yes and her
                        WORKERS wrote

                        everything fits right there. You managed to pretend to be a fool with "birth-appearance", but Mr. Borisov in a worker "reincarnated" by no means lol tongue
                        more than 2 million women in 21 and 22

                        take more here in the appendage or 20 or 23, otherwise you will still not reach "more than 2" for all reasons.
                        Foul skeptic
                        With prohibition, fruit exile is made

                        Yes, because with 1) permitted abortions, if a woman decides to give birth, she gives birth, if she does not want to give birth, she makes an abortion. 2) with prohibited abortions, if a woman decides to give birth, she gives birth, if she does not decide to give birth, she makes fetal expulsion on her own or in secret.
                        It is impossible to do legally what is not permitted by law. So what are the claims to the written?
                        "Now"?! We're talking about "then"

                        your talent is not to focus on the main point. And the main one in this phrase:
                        Demographers have long been aware that there is no direct relationship between fertility and the prevalence of abortion.

                        Soviet ugly abortion culture

                        What is your understanding of abortion culture? A very specific definition of some kind. And what's "ugly" about this:
                        I. It is allowed to perform a free operation on artificial termination of pregnancy in the setting of Soviet hospitals, where its maximum harmlessness is ensured.
                        II. It is absolutely forbidden to perform this operation to anyone except a doctor.
                        III. The midwife or grandmother, guilty of this operation, is deprived of the right to practice and is brought before the People's Court.
                        IV. A doctor who has carried out a fruiting operation in private practice for selfish purposes is also brought to trial.

                        Make a comparison with the "abortion culture" in another country. Does it say something completely different? I understand it could be called ugly if abortions were done WITHOUT the woman's consent, by force. The woman independently and voluntarily decided - she wants to do, does, does not want, no one forces. So what's wrong?
                        B. Urlanis had every reason to believe

                        And until the 19th century and the MKT, all physicists of the world had reason to believe the transfer of heat as an "influx or outflow of" caloric ""
                        Those. under the "accursed" tsarism, people WANTED to have children, but under "people's power, already NO, did not want to

                        People just WANTED.
                        In the fragrant Niger and Chad, as well as in the fragrant Empire, people want to give birth to children, and in the whole modern cursed developed world, like in the cursed Union, they do not want to.
                        The explanation is elementary. Distribution of contraception. Basic instincts are inevitable. And children are a "by-product" of this WANTING. Because the culture of contraception is not among the common people, which are the majority. Noble ladies could be perfectly protected and protected themselves, have you ever wondered why the birth of city ladies of the "high" world is an order of magnitude less than that of peasant women? By the way, in one of the methods for indirectly determining the number of abortions, it was used for calculations. So where did you get the idea that people wanted children? From this one:

                        I meet the inhabitants of the hut.
                        “My daughter was a widow with three children,” the old woman says, “now she serves as a cook in Baku.” She took two with her, and left us the third ... Yes, the old man did not love her, she whispers to me, everyone says: they left her to her mother, an extra mouth ...


                        or from this

                        Levitskaya began to ask the girl from her parents. The father sternly declared: ``
                        - She will die soon. What is in it? Feed your son — he will be a worker.


                        or from this

                        "The emergence of a new mouth is a real burden and burden of the family." You know how to make money with children, but you can't feed it like that "- they reproach family women who often give birth." There is nothing to eat themselves, but she reproduces like a cat "- they condemn such a woman."

                        This is written by the doctor of medicine Popov in 1903. He writes this by the way in a study on traditional medicine, in the same chapter where he describes the means used for fruitful expulsion.
                        In the dissertation of the doctor of medicine Selyugin in 1906, practices of fruit expulsion are mentioned in the context of the causes of the increased mortality rate of children who fall into statistics as stillborn.
                        And this is in the dissertation of Dr. Bezgin on the causes of infanticide
                        "Difficulties of a material nature, the inability to support a child was an incentive in 40% of cases. The desire to hide pregnancy from parents or close relatives was characteristic of 28%. And only 2% of all infanticides were caused by a feeling of shame for having a child out of wedlock."
                      17. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 23 November 2019 12: 15
                        -2
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        I brought a declaration with the CSU

                        and at the same time they gave her away
                        T.N. tips

                        Himself is not funny?
                        a declaration was born - at the CSU, appeared - at the SS

                        well yes well yes and her
                        WORKERS wrote

                        everything right in your place converges. You did pretend to be a fool with "birth-appearance", but Mr. Borisov will not be able to "reincarnate" into a worker

                        1. fool gave out for the declaration of workers to the Congress of Soviets. It didn’t even reach 5 times, which is himself Congress of the so-called advice no one COULD write .... his own appeal? But from St. Petersburg, they wrote: read the DECLARATION, finally: "We, the workers, are addressing the congress."
                        2. You do not need to pretend. hi
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic

                        take more here in the appendage or 20 or 23, otherwise you will still not reach "more than 2" for all reasons.

                        hunger 21-22 yyywhen millions of women and children died, which NOBODY even counted, burying hundreds in holes and ravines. Or give the burial protocols with the names, surnames, places of the accountant?
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Yes, because with 1) permitted abortions, if a woman decides to give birth, she gives birth, if she does not want to give birth, she makes an abortion. 2) with prohibited abortions, if a woman decides to give birth, she gives birth, if she does not decide to give birth, she makes fetal expulsion on her own or in secret.
                        It is impossible to do legally what is not permitted by law. So what are the claims to the written?

                        belay
                        you wrote for the first time about fruitful exile, and in the second about increase exile.
                        Do not remember yourself?
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        "Now"?! We're talking about "then"

                        your talent is not to focus on the main point. And the main one in this phrase:
                        Demographers have long been aware that there is no direct relationship between fertility and the prevalence of abortion.

                        If you do not see the CORE difference between "then and now, there is nothing to talk about with you
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        What is your understanding of abortion culture? A very specific definition of some kind. And what is "ugly"

                        In 1924, for 100 births, 24 abortions in Moscow, in 1934, 272: 10 times the growth
                        ! By the way, in your opinion, women have become ten times more "ignorant" than in 1920. Or do you already have - the achievements of the owls of medicine in enlightenment? lol

                        This ugliness is the destruction of the moral and moral foundations of society, the family, which resulted in the destruction of children (more than in the whole world).

                        The ugliness is that for women the norm was NOT to give birth, but to kill
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Make a comparison with the "abortion culture" in another country.

                        In the US, the Criminal Code, France allowed abortion 50 years after the animals!
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        People just WANTED.
                        In the fragrant Niger and Chad, as well as in the fragrant Empire, people want to give birth to children, and in the whole modern cursed developed world, like in the cursed Union, they do not want to.
                        .

                        Sclerosis again? Let me remind you:
                        Birth rate is determined by intentions people, not means

                        WANTED and gave birth.

                        with your-like and- killed: abortion, but, for example, in 1937, a quarter of the killings is already killing childrenknitting, in the restroom, rope, in a landfill.
                        Oh, Women are becoming more and more "enlightened" with you, yes. fool
                        And abortions "completely disappeared", everything is "conceived", yeah!

                        The number of abortions is absolutely wild, halved the country from 1950-1990.

                        PS Tired already: you repeat ..

                        Summary: You are right in saying that, speaking of an increase over the years, the speakers were, yes, inconspicuous, illiterate, blind uh, idiots.

                        For sim ... hi
                      18. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 19 November 2019 10: 52
                        0
                        AND THE FOURTH TIME I will not deny myself the pleasure of hearing your silence in response to simple questions

                        But nothing that I have already answered you? All reports on the quality of statistical records, all excerpts from books with direct words that gave incorrect data, said that the leadership knew about nutrition problems, about hunger, but no one could calculate its magnitude. And it will never count. What do you think it was all about?
                      19. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 19 November 2019 12: 53
                        -1
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        But nothing that I have already answered you? All reports on the quality of statistical records, all excerpts from books with direct words that gave incorrect data, said that the leadership knew about nutrition problems, about hunger, but no one could calculate its magnitude. And it will never count. What do you think it was all about?

                        Not about that, of course.

                        Answer directly to the post questions:
                        leadership that:
                        1 knew nothing
                        2. did not see
                        3. did not understand for MANY years what was happening with demography ?.
                        4. And sincerely spoke about ... wealthy peasants in terrible February 33 g?
                        5. In what parallel reality did they live then?
                      20. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 19 November 2019 14: 00
                        0
                        Again twisted questions to which you can’t just give an answer, yes, I knew, no, I didn’t.
                        This is like Carlson’s question Freken Bock - Have you quit drinking brandy in the morning?
                      21. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 20 November 2019 10: 35
                        0
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Again twisted questions to which you can’t just give an answer, yes, I knew, no, I didn’t.

                        From what? You are welcome:

                        1. Know (reports MILLION)
                        2. Seen (and registry offices died out))
                        3. Understood: already in 1926 they started to have abortions, introduced a fee, then 29 grams were stricter and up to the ban 36 grams
                        4. "wealthy" peasants in the fierce February 33, with THOUSAND screams from the field about the catastrophe, this is something beyond human.
                        5. See 1-4

                        Do you understand this? Of course, yes. Here admit, even to himself, not in power. Well, okay
      3. tesser
        tesser 13 November 2019 15: 17
        -3
        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
        Count according to this principle, how do you think the population decline in the United States between 30 and 40 years

        + 9 million
        1930 - 123 202 624,
        1940 - 132 164 569,
        1. Foul skeptic
          Foul skeptic 13 November 2019 15: 35
          +1
          You didn’t understand what was going on or did you pretend you didn’t understand?
          1. tesser
            tesser 13 November 2019 15: 47
            -4
            132-123 = + 9
            162-168 = -6.

            Here for these -6 and tell.
            1. Foul skeptic
              Foul skeptic 13 November 2019 16: 05
              +1
              And what is 168? The result of the census?
              1. tesser
                tesser 13 November 2019 16: 22
                -3
                Want censuses? 1937 162 million, 1926 147 million +15 million. States 1920 106 million, 1940 132 million +26 million from a 1,5 times lower base. Comments will be?
                1. Foul skeptic
                  Foul skeptic 13 November 2019 17: 25
                  +1
                  Want censuses?

                  It is very clearly written what I want - to find out what 168 is.
                  1920 1940

                  Do you like to juggle with numbers?
                  counting for 11 years or for 20 years, no difference
                  from 1,5 times lower base

                  and what, in these similarities of the calculation "168 + 3 * 3" do you see its accounting?
                  And why did you not want to neutralize the influence of the "base" and did not take as the base a year with a higher population ... uh ... for example 1930? Because we manipulate, juggle?
                  Comments will be?

                  When you answer what was asked of you (more precisely, Olgovich, but you decided to break in "to flash"), then I will comment on this. And to comment on juggling - I'm not in the circus.
                  1. tesser
                    tesser 13 November 2019 18: 02
                    -2
                    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                    counting for 11 years or for 20 years, no difference

                    Well, I do not conduct American zhezh censuses. Do you want to take the States 40-30 + 9 million and say that compared with the Soviet 15 all the norms are more or less?
                    1. Foul skeptic
                      Foul skeptic 13 November 2019 18: 17
                      +1
                      No, I won’t say such nonsense.
                      Using the example of the United States censuses, I simply showed that it is impossible to so primitively consider the issues of the dynamics of biological populations (especially a person where, in addition to biology, the social component is connected), as they are considered here. And not only here. Otherwise, 132 million in 1940, and not 140-141 million (even with a linear, rather than exponential dependence) in the United States, then super mortality must also be explained.
                      1. tesser
                        tesser 13 November 2019 18: 30
                        -1
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        especially a person where, in addition to biology, the social component is connected)

                        In this you are right, the story of counting millions on the fingers is a direct road to the well-known billion killed by Stalin.
    2. chenia
      chenia 13 November 2019 11: 39
      -1
      Quote: Olgovich
      They did NOT know: about the millions who died within 9 months of starvation, about 630 executions for 000 year 1 * 37gg, about hundreds of thousands of exiled children, about the price of wars, etc.


      Shaw again Moldovan wine in the morning. You are done with this.

      Is there really not enough mind to attach a ruler to the population growth schedule and see (for example, in 1960, when there were certainly no repressions) there should be no more 280 Million
      It was 209 million demographic losses 70 млн. person.

      40 млн. (1960) losses from the Second World War
      30 млн. civil, hunger, repression.

      Moreover, this is a demographic loss, where 22-24 million. not born, in view of the deterioration of life and loss from loss. And if you add emigration, a pandemic (Spanish), etc. then the loss of specific people 37-40 million for all the years of Soviet power.

      For 30 years, the countries of the former USSR lost their liberalism -70-75 million people.

      Point.
      1. tesser
        tesser 13 November 2019 15: 20
        -5
        Quote: chenia
        For 30 years of liberalism, the countries of the former USSR lost -70-75 million people.

        And where does this beautiful figure come from?
        1. chenia
          chenia 13 November 2019 16: 13
          +3
          Quote: tesser
          And where does this beautiful figure come from?


          The population growth of the USSR over the past three decades has averaged 22-24 million people / 10 years. (60-70- generally -32 million)
          Total for 30 years, the increase should be up to 75 million. In 1989 - 293 million. THOSE. IN 2019 SHOULD BE
          365-370 million. And what is in the post-Soviet countries?

          Continue to continue? Or yourself ?.
          1. tesser
            tesser 13 November 2019 17: 15
            -5
            Quote: chenia
            In 1989 - 293 million. THOSE. IN 2019 SHOULD BE
            365-370 million

            Clear. The population of Japan 1989, the population of Japan now? Hungary? Greece? Where else have your liberals tried?
            1. chenia
              chenia 13 November 2019 17: 56
              +1
              Quote: tesser
              Where else have your liberals tried?


              Yes, we tried. I haven’t told you about Ukraine yet. Is it worth it?

              But Comrade Stalin deliberately plagued the people (and he is a bastard, resisting everything multiplied and multiplied).
              And if direct comparisons are made, then the percentage of the growth of the USSR from 1918 to 1960 is slightly inferior, for example, to Great Britain. Strange, yes (with all the losses)? Is it true that on the Gulag Islands, civilian and losses in WWII are commensurate?
              Well, how is a direct comparison?
              1. tesser
                tesser 13 November 2019 18: 06
                -3
                Quote: chenia
                But Comrade Stalin deliberately plagued the people (and he is a bastard, resisting everything multiplied and multiplied).

                That's right, you accidentally guessed. Ever heard of the second demographic transition?
                1. chenia
                  chenia 13 November 2019 18: 14
                  +1
                  Quote: tesser
                  Ever heard of the second demographic transition?


                  This is when the number of births increased by 1/5, and the increase by 40%.

                  Well and . what is uk What did they do there, such a small increase?
                  1. tesser
                    tesser 13 November 2019 18: 55
                    -5
                    Quote: chenia
                    This is when the number of births increased by 1/5, and the increase by 40%.

                    No, they didn’t guess. Good luck has left you.
                    1. chenia
                      chenia 13 November 2019 19: 31
                      +2
                      Quote: tesser
                      No, they didn’t guess. Good luck has left you.


                      And what shall I do to the poor? All suffered, I will not sleep.

                      But Britain entered the second unguarded transition, and it was hit by demography.
                      1. tesser
                        tesser 13 November 2019 21: 53
                        -4
                        Quote: chenia
                        And what shall I do to the poor?

                        Well, a normal person could google. But I can’t give you advice.
                      2. chenia
                        chenia 14 November 2019 11: 06
                        0
                        Quote: tesser
                        Well, a normal person could google.


                        A normal person could turn on the brain.
                        Ukraine - everything contradicts the criteria of the second demographic transition (and Russia, too), in addition, the transition itself (reflection on the graph) is a smooth function, and we had it like that. Well III? Maybe the reasons are different?

                        And what is Britain from 1920 to 1960? The first transition is not to offer. Comparable-USSR from 1960 to 1993, the population grew from 209 to 293 million (the same urbanization and even greater industrialization). Notice, I take the last three decades.
                      3. tesser
                        tesser 14 November 2019 13: 38
                        -4
                        Quote: chenia
                        Notice, I take the last three decades.

                        And what is there for decades? The threshold of urbanization of 50% in the USSR was passed in the 61st. The village generation is gone - and hello, one family, one child.

                        However, this is not a bit about this. You really do not see the difference between people who died under Yeltsin from vodka and hopelessness, and people who died under Stalin under much more energetic circumstances?
                      4. chenia
                        chenia 14 November 2019 15: 09
                        +1
                        Quote: tesser
                        The threshold of urbanization of 50% in the USSR was passed in the 61st. The village generation is gone - and hello, one family, one child.


                        Correctly. that's why I compared two different historical periods, but with a similar level of industrialization and urbanization.
                        So what?
                        In the above version, we (the USSR) have an increase of about 50%, they have 30%.
                        Moreover, for example, in Italy, 45%.
                        And that’s not the point. I argued with Olgovich who accuses the USSR of almost destroying the Russian ethnic group due to a significant reduction in the number of births by one woman and targeted extermination.
                        And not some arguments of demographic transitions do not reassure him (he has been excited for several years).

                        Quote: tesser
                        under Stalin under much more energetic circumstances?
                        Reply


                        I understand that energetic circumstances are repression, hunger. So, these reasons (real loss of people) account for 4-6 million people, but not tens of millions.
                        I must say right away do not try to refute (for large losses for these reasons, the population is not enough).
                      5. tesser
                        tesser 14 November 2019 18: 10
                        -2
                        Quote: chenia
                        due to a significant reduction in the number of births by one woman and targeted extermination.

                        Reduction of births - no, increase in mortality from unnatural causes - yes, genocide.
                        Quote: chenia
                        So, these reasons (real loss of people) account for 4-6 million people, but not tens of millions.
                        I must say right away do not try to refute (for large losses for these reasons, the population is not enough).

                        This is why you would not be enough if only BMN under a million? Here we rest against the same calculation of people on the fingers. Especially in the famine, where no one counted people.
                        As a matter of fact, the counting of victims in millions by demographic dynamics already speaks all about that time. And not only that.
                      6. chenia
                        chenia 14 November 2019 18: 37
                        0
                        Quote: tesser
                        VMN under a million?


                        Trim. more than 600 thousand. And the excess mortality in the camps up to 200 thousand from here -0,8 -0,9 million - this is the repression. And the rest of the hunger is 3-5 million.

                        Quote: tesser
                        famine, where no one counted people.


                        There are true big numbers.
                        Any person with an analytical mind (able to weed out both propaganda and phony reports and summaries) checks by this method.
                        When you know the initial figure, then you can determine the final by the most optimistic option. And compare with the real (and more or less reliable).

                        Then you determine the losses due to the causes of them.
                        I have several times given the alignment of losses, I do not want to repeat.
                        And you try, and I'm sure you will understand a lot.

                        I will help - the initial figure (number) for 1914 - the population of the Republic of Ingushetia - 166 million people.
                        And the calculation is easier to carry out before the 1959 census (there are no repressions or starvation here, i.e., losses for this case are excluded, and the census figure is plausible -209 million
                        Calculate how much could be. Hence the demographic losses, and so on (there is already an approximate layout at the top).
                      7. tesser
                        tesser 14 November 2019 19: 15
                        -2
                        Quote: chenia
                        Trim. more than 600 thousand.

                        This is only the 58th.
                        Quote: chenia
                        And the excess mortality in the camps is up to 200 thousand.

                        Excessive compared to what? The Japanese, who received no more than 10 years of this sanatorium, rested from every tenth (Soviet data) to every third (Japanese). But all were military people, not very sick and not old.
                        Quote: chenia
                        And the rest is 3-5 million

                        Of which only Ukraine, and only in 32-33, takes from 2,2 to 3,5 million people. The Russians did not die under Stalin, I am ready to support this concept.
                        Quote: chenia
                        in 1914, the population of RI was 166 million people.
                        And the calculation is easier to carry out before the 1959 census.

                        No. not easier. The USSR in 1959 included territories that had not been found on the holiday itself.
                      8. chenia
                        chenia 14 November 2019 19: 46
                        0
                        Quote: tesser
                        This is only the 58th.


                        No, this is from the civilian until 1956.

                        According to political articles, there were more than 3 million cases (taking into account some, (and often) they were tried twice, there were up to 3 million specific people. Again, many were amnestied.

                        Quote: tesser
                        2,2 to 3,5 million

                        So this figure in some reaches 10 million.
                        Although more likely 0,9 million


                        Quote: tesser
                        The USSR in 1959 included territories that had not been found on the holiday itself.


                        Oddly enough, this only increases losses.
                        For example, the figure for 1918 I deduced from 166 million. + 6 million increase. (by the way, both France and Britain have a significant minus.).
                        Further, the difference between the 10 Privislinsky provinces and Galicia, Transcarpathia, Bukovina and Bessarabia (which would not be counted twice) is 4 million minus.
                        Ie for 1918-19 to 168-170 million. person. (I repeat the entire population of the territories that will come in 1939-40 g are counted). and then the maximum possible increase of 65% .for forty years (by the way, how's the second transition? Can the percentage be reduced).
                        Well, we get to 1960 no more than 280 million people (maybe less).
                        That pops up demographic losses in 70 millionhuman.

                        And then try it yourself.
                      9. tesser
                        tesser 14 November 2019 23: 18
                        -2
                        Quote: chenia
                        No, this is from the civilian until 1956.

                        )))
                        The number 600 (640, EMNIP) is from Rudenko’s reference to counter-revolutionary crimes. That is, for example, the court’s verdicts are not included in it.
                        Quote: chenia
                        So this figure in some reaches 10 million.

                        You will talk about some with some.
                        Quote: chenia
                        Although more likely 0,9 million

                        The figure 3,5 is considered official in Ukraine (the Institute of Ptukhi), it is killed, without the unborn. The figure appeared before the current stage of brotherly love, even under the rich-vector Yanukovych. Your 0,9, as I understand it, your personal calculations.
                        Quote: chenia
                        For example, the figure for 1918 I deduced from 166 million. + 6 million increase.

                        For people like you, they wrote a special article on the wiki, The Population of the Russian Empire (1897-1917)
                        Quote: chenia
                        and then the maximum possible increase of 65% .for forty years

                        Easier. Take the 1896 census - 1913 census, see the growth. 1926 census, look, thanks red and white. Census of 1937, see growth, thanks to Comrade Stalin. On the site 1897-1937, unlike 1960-2020, the second demographic transition is not involved, extrapolation is possible.
                        Quote: chenia
                        the maximum possible increase of 65% .for forty years

                        Under Nicholas the Bloody they gave 40% for 17.
                        Quote: chenia
                        By the way, how is the second transition?

                        He is not there yet, low urbanization, low education.
                      10. chenia
                        chenia 15 November 2019 11: 45
                        0
                        [quote = tesser] Easier. Take the 1896 census - 1913 census, see the growth. 1926 census, look, thanks red and white. Census of 1937, see growth, thanks to Comrade Stalin. On the site 1897-1937, unlike 1960-2020, the second demographic transition is not involved, it is possible

                        Once again I affirm the truth of large numbers.

                        Original number in 170-172 million (excluding Finland) the population of the Republic of Ingushetia (incoming countries) in 1918
                        In the given version for 1918 countries included in the USSR -168-179 million (here the difference is between 10 Privislinsky provinces (Poland) and Galicia, Bukovina and Transcarpathia, all the rest came out, came in, came in for the population in 1918 by 4 million less.)

                        Further, by comparison, we derive the percentage of growth over 40 years-65% (only Greece and Bulgaria, and not quite European Turkey had more).
                        65% is -110 million and we get for 1960 -280 млн.

                        Second method. We take the population growth graph of RI and the USSR. and through the line from 1904 to 1913 we bring it to 1960, we get 285 million (and this is the growth rate of Russian bastard.)

                        Knowing the population of the USSR in 1959 - 209 million you can determine the maximum demographic loss -about 70 million people No more, at least bursts. And then a lot of things do not converge among the liberals.

                        [quote = tesser] Under Nikolai the Bloody they gave 40% for 17. [/ quote]

                        Well, 90% in 40 years (in the given version) is a bastard country, but by 1904 the growth rate had fallen.
                        The USSR for 1940 1/3 lives in cities. in 1959 is half. Should the pace fall?

                        [quote = tesser] He is not there yet, low urbanization, low education. [/ quote]

                        Nodo war was one interesting thing that showed a decline in the population growth of the USSR after the Civil War - permission for abortion.
                        How much? But as far as the 1938 ban on abortion. In 1937 (repression in full swing, and growth increased by 40%)
                        At the same time, the birth rate increased from 5 million to 6 million (only by 1/5)
                        But mortality was like it was 2,9-3, 2 million. (found different numbers) and approximately remained (increased only by 170-200 thousand. only due to mortality of newborns up to a year)
                        That is, the country has lost 15-0,7 million people / year for 08 years. (Up to 10 million) in abortion. (This is a loss of growth compared with RI). And there are losses to reduce the birth rate in the Second World War (although this is already the loss of the Second World War).

                        And at the same time I gave some of the highest rates in Europe.

                        And if you want to throw the blinders out of your eyes. You will see a completely different picture.
    3. tesser
      tesser 13 November 2019 15: 09
      -3
      Quote: Olgovich
      So there they are generally nothing and never get sick.

      How many people were shot there on a trophy case? It seems to have questions to comrade Zhukov?
  21. kalibr
    kalibr 13 November 2019 10: 03
    +1
    Stalin had no illusions about the Soviet people of the 20s model. This society was poisoned by revolution, civil war and terror. The people, infinitely far from the ideals of a brighter future (the new “golden age”, civilization and the society of the future), could be encouraged to superhuman efforts only by two methods - by forcing and creating an attractive image of the future. Coercion became the lever that set the system in motion, gave an initial impetus and provided first results. Coercion was carried out by various methods: harsh repressive collectivization, super-harsh punishment for any wrongdoing, forced labor of prisoners, hard work for a small fee (for example, on collective farms).

    These were very tough methods. But without them, the peoples of Russian (Soviet) civilization were doomed to historical defeat and disappearance from the planet.


    Very well written! Only now ... and with all this, Soviet civilization fell apart, and Russian is still alive. Do not confuse these two concepts and then everything will be fine!
  22. kalibr
    kalibr 13 November 2019 10: 06
    0
    Quote: Boris55
    It didn’t exist for 38 years. It took them 38 years to destroy it.

    After the execution of workers in Novocherkassk (1962 year), the Trotskyists realized that capitalism would not succeed in imposing the people on the heels. The era of Brezhnev’s degradation was nothing more than a creeping counter-revolution, during which they nurtured and placed their people in all key posts, at the same time removing the people from management, killing any initiative from below, soldering it ... it was for this reason that the people did not defend guiding and guiding.
    Reply

    All the same, "they" are smart, but the people ... God forgive me, here the word is forbidden in VO.
    1. Boris55
      Boris55 13 November 2019 10: 18
      +4
      Quote: kalibr
      All the same, "they" are smart, but the people.

      The people are not up to the time when we should not receive 10 formations, so that we ourselves can understand everything. We need to work, and the task of managers is not to fill their scrotum, but to provide creators with acceptable conditions for life and creation.

      The main achievement of Stalin is the annual reduction in prices. You can print money on an additional product, or you can lower prices. Stalin took the second path, which Democrats of all stripes cannot forgive him ... With lower prices, the poor get richer. With rising salaries, the poor become poorer - they did not have time to announce an increase, as prices for everything have already skyrocketed.
  23. kalibr
    kalibr 13 November 2019 10: 09
    +1
    Quote: Boris55
    in the USSR there were no castes by definition.

    But in the late USSR there was a joke.
    The colonel’s son asks his father:
    - Dad, will I become a colonel?
    - Yes, son.
    - Daddy, and I will become a general?
    - No son, the general has his own son.

    But you noticed it well! There were castes, there were some more ... With a salary in envelopes, special sanatoriums, special clinics, where workers from the machine tool and a mile away were not allowed ...
  24. kalibr
    kalibr 13 November 2019 10: 10
    -1
    Quote: McAr
    And in this phase, the most progressive class of the proletariat suppresses (should suppress) any manifestations of the bourgeois, i.e. negative manifestations from the previous formation.

    Why didn’t the progressive class suppress Khrushchev?
  25. kalibr
    kalibr 13 November 2019 10: 24
    -1
    Quote: Boris55
    The people are not up to the time we once have 10 formations

    That's why it will always be ... those who have enough time for this. It simply cannot be otherwise. Who, then, will scoff at those who are intellectually inferior to themselves? These horses work for people, not people for horses. And among people in the same way.
  26. kalibr
    kalibr 13 November 2019 10: 27
    0
    Quote: McAr
    Am I wrong somewhere? Wasn’t 60-100 workdays the norm? Could someone make it work more? Essentially got nitpicking?

    I do not know if you were mistaken. I'm not at all interested in what the norm was. And was it ... I just read the documents and try to let you read them, but everything looks a bit different in them ...
  27. kalibr
    kalibr 13 November 2019 10: 29
    0
    Quote: Boris55
    Even the people prefer more and more Stalin than Khrushchev.

    Only stalinkas are few, and there are many hrushers - that’s the whole difference!
  28. alebor
    alebor 13 November 2019 10: 52
    +3
    I looked specifically at the definition in the dictionary: "CIVILIZATION
    (from Lat. civilis - civil, state) - one of the main units of historical time, denoting a long-existing, self-sufficient community of countries and peoples, the originality of which is due to socio-cultural reasons. Ts. Is like a living organism, passing the path from birth to death, constantly reproducing itself and giving a unique originality to all the processes taking place in it. "
    In my opinion, if "civilization" was able to exist for only about 70 years (and if we count from the time of Stalin, then even less), then this is not a civilization, but an unsuccessful and short-term (by historical standards) political and economic experiment that began with a sharp push and the rise, which quickly lost its dynamism and ended in slow decay and the final complete stagnation of all systems of this extremely inflexible and inert system.
    If "civilization" rests on the personality of one person, if "civilization" is not able to reproduce itself for a long time - this is not a civilization, but something else.
  29. kalibr
    kalibr 13 November 2019 11: 24
    +1
    Quote: alebor
    then this is not civilization, but an unsuccessful and short-term (by historical standards) political and economic experiment, which began with a sharp push and lift, quickly lost its dynamism and ended with slow decay and final complete stagnation of all systems of this extremely inflexible and inert system.
    If "civilization" rests on the personality of one person, if "civilization" is not able to reproduce itself for a long time - this is not a civilization

    ... exactly!
  30. kalibr
    kalibr 13 November 2019 11: 26
    -2
    Quote: Boris55
    The main achievement of Stalin is the annual reduction in prices.

    He died and did not decline. Here is such an economic system. The system of one person who died on the carpet alone without help and hope.
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 13 November 2019 13: 32
      -4
      Quote: kalibr
      He died and did not decline. Here is such an economic system.

      And the system was simple to the point of confusion: the purchase prices for the products of peasants were several times lower than the prices at which the same products were already sold by the state in stores and were incompatible with the prices of manufactured goods ..

      Such is the "effective" model, called by Stalin himself DAY with the peasants.
      1. chenia
        chenia 13 November 2019 17: 02
        +4
        Quote: Olgovich
        Such is the "effective" model, which Stalin himself called Tribute from the peasants.


        Yes, a tribute, and the process was industrialization (no one else gave loans. There would have been no industrialization, there would have been no country. Stalin understood this, but it’s not obvious to everyone.
        But in the 80s the process was the opposite (they solved the problem) when the cattle were bought more expensive from the villagers than the meat was then sold in stores (and at prices of the 60s).

        Yes, there were lines, although in the bazaar (one and a half times more expensive they didn’t really want to take), shouting that there was no meat.
        1. Aviator_
          Aviator_ 13 November 2019 19: 40
          0
          To argue with Olgovich in the field of history is the same as with Gridasov in the field of science. Only Gridasov is more adequate.
        2. Olgovich
          Olgovich 14 November 2019 10: 45
          +1
          Quote: chenia
          Yes tribute, and the process was industrialization

          Tribute-file with the population or tax levied by the winner of the defeated people
          Quote: chenia
          There would be no industrialization, there would be no country.

          And How the whole world industrialized without him? recourse
          Quote: chenia
          But in the 80s the process was the opposite (they solved the problem) when the cattle were bought more expensive from the villagers than the meat was then sold in stores (and at prices of the 60s).

          Yes, there were lines, although in the bazaar (one and a half times more expensive they didn’t really want to take), shouting that there was no meat.

          achievements are "good", yes yes
          1. chenia
            chenia 14 November 2019 10: 54
            +1
            Quote: Olgovich
            Tribute to the population or tax levied by the winner from the defeated people


            At first they thought. What a tribute, but a closer look turned out to be a loan
            But in the 80s the process was the opposite (they solved the problem) when the cattle were bought more expensive from the villagers than the meat was then sold in stores (and at prices of the 60s).

            And technology at the state price (for example, ZIL -1700 rubles). and a tractor (and we produced 0,5 million / year. and other agricultural machinery for a penny.


            Quote: Olgovich
            And how did the whole world industrialize without it?


            But here the Rothschilds and the Rockefellers decide.
  31. evgen1221
    evgen1221 13 November 2019 11: 42
    +1
    Stalin sincerely believed in the possibility of building socialism of communism in the country and all his
    I passed decisions and opinions of advisers through the prism of my idea, after which I made decisions. Bushkov described his characteristic features well, and you believe this by looking back and comparing decision dates and results. The ITF again received power in the country in the region of 37g and began to clean the starry old Leninist brethren, about which the howl still goes in every way. Note Beria began in the NKVD with mass revisions and the release of prisoners and plantings of woodcutters from the Cheka. And yes, the factor of euphoria from the great Victory in the war played a cruel joke on the country. The leader loosened his grip on personnel matters, although it was excusable to a person in his years and carried such a load. The personality of Stalin is too multifaceted and enormous to portray him with just one color.
  32. Procopius Nesterov
    Procopius Nesterov 13 November 2019 12: 26
    -3
    The only part of the former Russian Empire that did not fall under the communist yoke is Finland.
    The result in terms of living is evident.
    1. Flatter
      Flatter 13 November 2019 14: 33
      +6
      One of the requirements for capitulated Finland from the USSR was the complete absence of its own armed forces, the absence of armed formations and forces of other countries on the territory and entry into blocs. The USSR supplied Finland with industrial raw materials, semi-finished products, timber, chemical fertilizers, and metals according to the barter scheme receiving Finnish industry products in exchange. At the same time, Finland could trade with other countries. For the USSR, Finland was only 3–4 million people in terms of population. This is the whole success of the Finns. Let the USSR thank
      1. Procopius Nesterov
        Procopius Nesterov 13 November 2019 18: 23
        -2
        As of 1978, the total number of Finnish armed forces was 40 thousand people (32 thousand of them were military servicemen)
        This is 1 percent of the population, which is a lot.
        After the war, Finland paid reparations of the USSR for 6 years.
        The USSR, which supplied goods for free ?, did not trade. In the USSR, only 20 percent of trade was at its peak. Wherever communism was built, wretchedness turned out. As can be seen from the example, communism was not affected by Finland. Although the only former part of Russia lives normally.
        And Russia will live normally, your wretched economic experiment over the country is over.
  33. kalibr
    kalibr 13 November 2019 14: 51
    -2
    Quote: Alexander Suvorov
    Well, about this very "would" have stumbled and RI in due time, right?

    Of course!
  34. kalibr
    kalibr 13 November 2019 14: 57
    -4
    Quote: Olgovich
    And the system was simple to the point of confusion: the purchase prices for the products of peasants were several times lower than the prices at which the same products were already sold by the state in stores and were incompatible with the prices of manufactured goods ..

    So this is the whole system of the economy of the USSR was based on the underpayment to citizens.
  35. kalibr
    kalibr 13 November 2019 15: 19
    -1
    Quote: Alexander Suvorov
    For those who are especially stubborn, watch the newsreel of Joseph Stalin’s funeral. Or say that the terrible NKVDeshniki drove everyone out of the house and made them cry from grief from grief.

    No matter how you get hungry here, but for that generation, Stalin was really the FATHER OF THE PEOPLE!

    Alexander! Nobody argues with that! In every society, there are 80% of the population that are feeble-minded and insufficiently informed and socialized. Read Boris's commentary about the fact that the workers have no time to learn. If you show them your finger, they laugh; if you say the father of nations is dead, they cry. But they do not determine the vector of development. And the rest is 20%. For example, my stepfather, Colonel of the GRU, told me that he and his comrades had just pulled down the curtains and were drinking champagne, that they would finally ... breathe freely! So who what ... Do you understand that those who cried do not rule ?! Steering Beria, Malenkov, Zhukov, Shepilov, Khrushchev, Gorbachev. Do you think someone was the first to cry? Yes, everyone thought only one thing: "Well, finally dead, now it's my turn!" Isn't that so? So!
  36. kalibr
    kalibr 13 November 2019 15: 21
    -1
    Quote: evgen1221
    The leader loosened his grip on personnel matters, although it was forgivable to a person in his years and who endured such a load.

    A good system should not depend on a strong or weak "grip" of the leader!
  37. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 13 November 2019 15: 25
    -6
    "Stalin is a leader-priest," ////
    ----
    Amazingly accurate definition!
    good
    The USSR was not in vain compared in economic terms with ancient Egypt, and the communist nomenclature elite was compared with a caste of priests.
    At the head: the leader-priest, adored by all Pharaoh. Deified in life. Father of the nation. Friend of children.
    Thunderstorm of enemies.
    They love him to madness and are afraid to madness.
    1. Alexander Suvorov
      Alexander Suvorov 13 November 2019 15: 47
      +6
      voyaka uh (Alexey)
      The USSR was not in vain compared in terms of economic structure with Ancient Egypt
      Who compared? Are there strange voices in your sore brain? Such growth rates that the USSR issued under Stalin are not and never will be. So wipe it off.
      The country prepared and won the war, recovered twice after the devastating wars and became the second world power thanks to the planned method of farming.
      Soviet planning was successfully implemented at the enterprises of billionaires in many countries. In 1991, in Moscow, at the Academy of Labor and Social Relations, a Soviet-American symposium was held, at which the Japanese were. Here is what the Japanese billionaire Herosi Terawama said there in response to the rants of Soviet economists and sociologists about the "Japanese miracle":

      “You are not talking about the main thing. About your leading role in the world. In 1939, you Russians were smart, and we Japanese were fools. In 1949, you became even smarter, and we were fools so far. And in 1955 we got smarter, and you turned into five-year-old children. Our entire economic system is almost completely copied from yours, with the only difference being that we have capitalism, private producers, and we have never achieved more than 15% growth, but you, when you have public ownership of the means of production, have reached 30% or more. All of our firms have your slogans of the Stalin era. ”
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 13 November 2019 15: 53
        -5
        "There are no such growth rates that the USSR gave out under Stalin and will never be more" ////
        ----
        So in ancient Egypt was an outstanding powerful economy! Great construction sites: irrigation canals and reservoirs. Huge granaries. Ports, palaces, pyramids. Powerful army. Art. Medicine.
        Intensive scientific (priests knew mathematics and the basics of physics) slave system.
        Superpower! fellow
        1. Alexander Suvorov
          Alexander Suvorov 13 November 2019 15: 56
          +3
          voyaka uh (Alexey)
          Superpower! fellow
          Well, not over not over, but I had you as I wanted. It got to the point that Moses had to chase you through the desert until the last one who remembered Egyptian slavery died. wassat
          1. voyaka uh
            voyaka uh 13 November 2019 17: 02
            -5
            ABOUT! Ancient Egypt at that time had everything as it wanted, and not just Jews. laughing
            But it was from the Egyptians, after a long captivity, that the Jews grasped the technologies that helped the kings Saul-David-Solomon at the beginning of the 1st millennium BC build a fairly developed kingdom of Judea. Although he was far from ancient Egyptian.
        2. Flatter
          Flatter 13 November 2019 16: 27
          +3
          Only in the territory of the Russian Federation should it be a superpower, otherwise it will fall apart into components. But, if the army served as a pillar under tsarism, then the industrial and scientific potential was added under the USSR. The obvious economic growth of the state maintained the status quo
      2. Procopius Nesterov
        Procopius Nesterov 13 November 2019 18: 29
        -1
        By the way, the USSR had features of a slave system.
        If in a slave state a slave is given a stew and a roof over his head, and if the slave does not want to work, then he is punished with a whip. But in the USSR there was only the stew more fat, but if you do not work then you will be punished. The slave in this case was the state.
        209.1 Article. Malicious evasion of the decision on employment and termination of parasitic existence

        Malicious evasion of the person leading an antisocial lifestyle from the implementation of the decision of the executive committee of the district (city) Council of Workers' Deputies on employment and termination of parasitic existence -

        is punished by imprisonment for up to one year or correctional labor for the same term.

        The same act committed by a person previously convicted under the first part of this article -

        the applicable sentence is deprivation of liberty for a term not exceeding two years. "
  38. Andrey VOV
    Andrey VOV 13 November 2019 16: 24
    +2
    In childhood, he wrote out the technique of youth ... so friends were almost in line for a new number or they all gathered in my crowd and read and read to the holes!
  39. Wildcat
    Wildcat 13 November 2019 18: 58
    -2
    And the article is so-so, and the necrostalists are somehow weakly manifesting themselves ... Here in St. Petersburg, the necrobonapartist in the hat was more vigorous than the other!
    More energetic, necrostalinists!
    Well, necroberiaphiles, help them!
  40. The comment was deleted.
  41. Wildcat
    Wildcat 13 November 2019 20: 49
    -1
    What a weak reaction ...
    Stalinophiles! Beryaphil!
    I am not trying to consider Stalin and Beria "by modern standards," what happened, then was, and these are already historical characters of the last century.
    Listen, I really don’t understand: how can one be a Stalinophile after the Twentieth Congress? I’m not talking about further things.
    How can one be a beryaphil after 1