Tank ace Kurt Knispel. Battle score and big questions

The famous portrait of Kurt Knispel, made by A. Rubbel in 1942. Photo History.wikireading.ru

The troops of Hitlerite Germany had many tank aces with large battle scores. The most productive tanker of the Wehrmacht and of the entire Second World War is called Kurt Knispel. On his official account there are 168 damaged enemy armored vehicles, and taking into account unconfirmed victories, the score is close to two hundred. However, such outstanding successes raise certain doubts and leave questions. How did Feldwebel Knispel manage to defeat so many enemies and set a record?

Enemy Biography

In the post-war years, biographies of many German ace tankers were published abroad, but K. Knispel was not popular for many years. The situation changed only at the end of the 2000s, when the German historian Franz Kurovsky published the book Feldwebel Kurt Knispel. Subsequently, excerpts from this work were included in his collections of German tank crews.

It should be noted that it was thanks to F. Kurovski and his books that K. Knispel gained wide popularity. The historian clarified the nuances of the tanker's biography, described his combat path and also revealed indicators in battles.

Non-commissioned officer Knispel on the pages of Völkischer Beobachter - Nr 138 17.05.1944

The future tanker was born on September 21 1921 (or 1922) in the Sudetenland and was of German origin. In 1940, after the partition of Czechoslovakia, he went to serve in the German army and ended up in tank troops. From May to September of the 1940, K. Knispel underwent training, during which he got acquainted with the tanks Pz.Kpfw.I, Pz.Kpfw.II and Pz.Kpfw.III. In October, the young tanker was transferred to the 29th Tank Regiment of the 12th Tank Division, where he had to master the specialties of the gunner and loading tank Pz.Kpfw.IV.

22 June 1941 g. 12-I Panzer Division took part in the attack on the USSR. At this time, K. Knispel was loading one of her tanks. The division fought in Western Belarus, in the region of Minsk and Smolensk. In late summer, she was transferred to Leningrad to participate in blocking the city. The tanker went all this way with his formation.

In January 1942, Mr. K. Knispel changed his profession and became a gunner. In May, his battalion was recalled to the rear to move to a new material unit - tanks Pz.Kpfw.IV. Soon the battalion was transferred to the 4-th tank regiment of the 13-th tank division, in which he had to participate in the attack on the Caucasus.

At the beginning of 1943, Mr. K. Knispel was sent to study work on the latest tank Pz.Kpfw.VI. After training, he ended up in the 1 company of the 503 heavy tank battalion. In the summer, the unit took part in the Battle of Kursk. Then there was a retreat through the territory of Ukraine.

From May to June of the 1944, the 1-th company of the 503-th battalion was retrained for heavy tanks Pz.Kpfw. VI Ausf.B. Soon after, the battalion was sent to Normandy, where in a few weeks he lost the entire materiel. At the end of September, combat readiness was restored and went to Hungary. During this period, K. Knispel became a tank commander.

28 April 1945 near Vostits (Czechoslovakia) sergeant major Knispel last went into battle. During the battle, a heavy tank was shot down by self-propelled artillery fire of the Red Army. The crew left the car and tried to retreat. A fragment of a Soviet mine inflicted a mortal wound on a tank ace.

Combat score

According to F. Kurovski, K. Knispel won his first victory at the end of August 1941 near Leningrad. Then he was a member of the crew of sergeant-major Hans Fendezak and temporarily served as a gunner. During these battles, the tank knocked out 7 Red Army vehicles. In the future, K. Knispel returned to the place of the loader and for several months the combat score did not change.

Knizpel and colleagues against the background of the Tiger II tank. Photo Forum.axishistory.com

Since January 1942, Mr. K. Knispel served in the crew of Non-Commissioned Officer Alfred Rubbel. Soon, he officially became a gunner, and during an attack on the Caucasus he knocked out five more tanks.

After retraining for Tiger, Lance Corporal Knispel was on the crew of sergeant Ripple. According to the results of the Battle of Kursk, tankers declared 27 victories. Soon new applications appeared, and the combat score was constantly increasing.

In May 1944, Mr. Völkischer Beobachter wrote about an outstanding tanker Knyspel who knocked out 107 enemy tanks. In the coming months, before transferring to a command post, the account was able to bring to 126 confirmed and 20 unconfirmed tanks. Then K. Knispel received a promotion and became a tank commander. On the Tiger and Tiger II machines, as a commander, he won 42 victories, not counting 10 unconfirmed.

One of the tanks of the 503 th heavy tank battalion. Summer 1944, France. Photo History.wikireading.ru

K. Knispel destroyed the last target in the battle of April 28, immediately before his death. The total official score is 168 tanks. Another 30 victories remained unconfirmed. Such data allowed F. Kurovsky and other historians to call Kurt Knispel the most effective tank ace of Germany and the entire Second World War.

Big Questions

The Felkisher Beobacher and F. Kurovski data on 168 confirmed victories raise big questions. It is possible to call into question both the number itself and the method of obtaining it. A careful study of the topic remains a lot of questions, the answers to which ruin the whole harmonious picture.

First of all, you need to touch on the base numbers. It is alleged that K. Knispel knocked out 168 (+ 30) enemy tanks. However, it is well known how tank crews' combat scores could differ from actual results. A number of objective factors make it difficult to evaluate the work of tankers during or after a battle. In addition, the specific attitude of the German command to the confirmation of victories was of great importance. As a result, often the battle accounts of aces are significantly overestimated and do not coincide with the real losses of the enemy.

Another Tiger II after the battles in Normandy, 22 on August 1944. Photo by Wikimedia Commons

Thus, the number “168” refers not so much to the actual results of the tankers as to the bureaucratic features of their service. What should be a real account - an unanswered question.

The method of counting victories used by F. Kurovski looks extremely strange. In his book Tank Aces of the Second World War, Russian historian MB Baryatinsky rightly notes that when calculating victories, emphasis was placed on the personality of K. Knispel, and this led to incorrect results.

When determining the success of tankers, it is customary to single out a crew commander, under whose leadership victories are gained. In this case, from 168 declared victories, tank commander K. Knispel only has 42 left. He knocked out other 126 tanks, being a gunner in the crew of various commanders. This means that when calculating according to the generally accepted methodology, the total score should be divided between several commanders, and Knispel accounts for only a quarter of the declared victories.

503-th heavy tank battalion in Normandy, 1 September 1944 Photo Imperial War Museum / iwm.org.uk

Due to incorrect counting, a characteristic situation is created. K. Knispel with "his" 42 wrecked tanks can not count on the title of the most productive tank ace of the Second World War. Even in German aces ratings, he will not be able to rise above 45-50 places. At the same time, the former loader and gunner “overshadowed” his commanders, who are now known only because of the service with him.

It should be noted that K. Knispel’s well-known biographies regularly raise the topic of lack of awards: they should regularly celebrate such a well-deserved tanker. However, a review of the known data on the adopted techniques shows what could be due to insufficient command attention. Iron crosses of the 2 and 1 class, as well as the Military Order of the German Cross, are quite consistent with the achievements in various positions in the crew of tanks.

Not the best and not the worst

To date, quite a lot is known about the sergeant-major Kurt Knispele. Based on the available data, they consider that he was the best tank ace of the Second World War. However, the same information allows to doubt this version and offers a more balanced picture.

Token K. Knispel found in a mass grave. Photo Kurt-knispel.webnode.cz

Apparently, K. Knispel was really a good gunner and tank commander, capable of professionally performing his work. And the crews with his participation or under his command really caused noticeable damage to the Red Army. Moreover, K. Knispel was a dangerous enemy for us almost throughout the entire Great Patriotic War - until the end of April 1945.

However, restoring pages stories and when searching for unknown participants in World War II, one should not stoop to dubious methods of calculation - even if they give the desired result. Such cases cast doubt on the value of research. In addition, they interfere with the restoration of a complete and real picture of past events. Finally, they leave uncomfortable questions: who needs Axis to have new “heroes” many years after the end of the war - all the more so, with “merit” that is doubtful in all respects?

Comments

[Catfish]

It is really strange with regard to awards, with such an account (168) he should have at least had a Knight's Cross and officer shoulder straps. The German command did not skimp on awards and for a much smaller amount of destroyed enemy equipment issued the Knight's Cross. Whitman's uniform had no free space at all.

[L-39NG]

Kurt Knispel did not seek rewards. The high command did not like him for his character. Knispel knew how to live. He was wayward and hard-headed. He did not like fools over himself. In 1942, the beating officer Schutzpolizei was beaten for beating unarmed prisoners. For this Knispel threatened the court, but the officers from his unit defended him. Knispel, despite serving in the schwere SS-Panzer-Abteilung 503, never entered the NSDAP. He had an opinion about the Hitler regime that was very far from official. He didn’t cut his hair, didn’t shave, and behaved like an equal with everyone and with senior officers. These are the main reasons that he did not become an officer and did not have as many awards as Michael Wittman.

[Vitaly Tsymbal]

Do you know him personally, to say that he had all the qualities you listed? Or are you trying to "whitewash the essay" based on some information that was published after the war? Maybe the fact that he did not cut his hair or shave is the main indicator of disloyalty to fascist Nazism?)))

[L-39NG]

Why should I whitewash him? We did not drink beer together. The only thing is that Knispel's house, or rather, the house has not survived, there are fruit trees in that place now, it was 29 km from my house. And yet I have never been there. I just asked about a man. And rummaged through the documents. But I know Konrad Henlein's house well. I pass by it when I go for a walk to the Karlova Studanka sanatorium.
Incidentally, for the battered Schutzpolizei, Knispel was already sewn to the gallows.
You can get all the information by asking questions in the German or Czechoslovak, and now the Czech archives. Photocopies of the documents of interest will be sent to you. Pay only mail.

[Vitaly Tsymbal]

I, with the Essesses, did not drink beer either. But with the former Aborussian (German) - drank. And he personally told me how and whom they selected in the SS. And when he served in Belarus, there was a concentration camp for Soviet people at 3 kilometers (not only for captured Soviet soldiers) and we went there, went along with the soldiers to show them what Nazism is.
Essovtsi also loved children, Do not believe me - write to the archives of Germany you will receive photocopies of documents of interest to you. True, they loved not all children ... for those whom they did not like, they created children's death factories !!!!

[Vitaly Tsymbal]

Come on, please! Something I have not heard about Moscow marches in Moscow for a long time))) Where do you live? But fascism is alive while it is being heroized ...

[Vitaly Tsymbal]

Especially for Ryaruav (Ryaruav)
If you have written to me - and I am an internationalist, I have even been awarded the "Internationalist Warrior" badge. Specify, then I will answer.

[NOMADE]

Sober up painful Troll.

[Okolotochny]

And all Russophobes have one phrase - And you have the Nazis marching! You ask proofs, links - ZERO! The professor is sick of this. Ukrainian neo-Nazis - Jews in power are covered by Groysmans, Zelensky. They can only stupidly translate arrows.

[Catfish]

Hello Peter. Thanks for the interesting details. You write that Knispel served in the SS, and meanwhile, on the top, very first "brutal" photo, he is in the uniform of a Wehrmacht tanker, judging by the buttonholes, and the "bird" on the right side of his chest is visible. The photo below also does not look like SS. And somehow I never came across information that people were moving from the army to the SS, it seemed it was not accepted. But this is so, thinking out loud.

[L-39NG]

Actually, I wrote that Knispel served in some unit. That unit was SS. Before the war, Kurt received a degree in auto mechanics. They sent him to the tank crews. He began his studies at 4 / Pz.Ers.Abt. 15. 13.08.1941/3/29 transferred to the 9rd company Panzer-Regiment 29, two days later to the 12th company Panzer-Regiment 12. These companies were part of the XNUMXth tank division. And that was Division XNUMX. SS-Panzer-Division "Hitlerjugend".
In the photo, the one that is smaller is Kurt Knispel. Adam's head with crossbones is visible on the buttonholes. He participated in the battles on the Kursk Bulge as part of the schwere SS-Panzer Abteilung 103/503, which was under the command of 7. Panzer-Division (Wehrmacht) After 50 documented victories, he received Eisernes Kreuz I. Klasse. After 126 victories, 20. 5. 1944, received the Kriegsorden des Deutschen Kreuz in Gold. In addition, he was probably the only non-commissioned officer whose name was announced on Wehrmachtbericht radio news. He died or was seriously wounded on April 28, 1945, but the official date of death was April 30.04.1945, XNUMX.
Feldfebel Kurt Knispel was a funeral in a mass grave in the South Moravian village of Vrbovice. Then the remains of those who could be identified were reburied without honors, but with respect to death or were transferred to their families.
In Germany there is a Deutsche Dienstelle organization, where you can dig up a lot of information if anyone is interested. The Germans do not hide anything or hide anything under military secrets. They communicate with everyone correctly and go to a meeting. They have their own translators. Do not be afraid to ask questions. Not me, them.

[Catfish]

Peter , thanks again. It seems strange to me that a man seems to have served in SS tank units, but in all the photographs he is in an army uniform, incl. and on the one that you posted. And the German tankmen wore Adam's head in both collar tabs in memory of Frederick's "Hussars of Death", and the black Thomas was also from them. The SS tankers had a skull only in the left buttonhole, and in the right one, as it should be, runic "lightning" belonging to the order.

[Nehist]

You have a mistake! s.SS Pz.-Abt. 103 Number changed to s.SS Pz.-Abt.503 22.09/1944. 503 year. As you can see s.Pz.-Abt.04.09.1942 XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX created where Knispel served. What does the Wehrmacht fragment of the token say by the way. The tokens of the SS soldiers were in the alphanumeric designation or the letters ss or double runes

[L-39NG]

And again. I wrote only about where he served and, therefore, under what command he was. And if "some FAQ" bore the designation SS, and it was not, then this is not for me. We are writing about Kurt Knispel. Writing about units and their names, and changes in the vocabulary of the German army is a different topic.

[Nehist]

And how do you then explain the fact that you define the 29th Tank Regiment in the 12th SS Panzer Division where he never was? Perhaps you are still confusing 12 tank with 12 tank SS. These are actually different units with different commanders, as well as two s.Pz.-Abt.503. and s.SS Pz.-Abt.503. Different units existed at the same time.

[L-39NG]

As I said, maybe I'm mistaken in the meaning of units. Not a specialist. Wrote what I found. I thank everyone for pointing out my mistakes and for clearing the name of Kurt Knispel from the SS-man sticker, in my understanding. Although I'm on the side of who he was. The war ended long ago, and it’s a sin to fight the dead.

[Catfish]

ss letters or double runes

Alexander, this is one and the same.

[tatarin1972]

I already wrote that he was a Wehrmacht sergeant major, if he were in the SS his rank would be Oberscharführer.

[Saxahorse]

Quote: L-39NG

Before the war, Kurt received a degree in auto mechanics. They sent him to the tank crews. He began his studies at 4 / Pz.Ers.Abt. 15. 13.08.1941/3/29 transferred to the 9rd company Panzer-Regiment 29, two days later to the XNUMXth company Panzer-Regiment XNUMX.

Some kind of dregs .. Why suddenly an auto mechanic is appointed as a loader? Why not a mechanical drive? Charger is obviously an auxiliary post for the uneducated. All this is very similar to fiction, because another info immediately looks dubious.

[saigon]

He did not become an officer because he was not trained as an officer, and he did not roll out to receive a rank for services in the Wehrmacht.
Well, they didn’t have such a thing, and in our understanding there were no military schools,

[TermNachTer]

He was a gunner - they considered him destroyed tanks, he became the commander of the tank - they considered again. And those who were with him, the crew was also considered? And as they were believed, all at once, or each individually?

[Catfish]

Reread the article more closely, the author there is trying to explain how the calculation went.

[TermNachTer]

That's because I did not understand how the counting is done and I ask. Also, it is very interesting to know how in battle, from a distance of a kilometer you can determine whether an enemy tank is destroyed or not? Well there, in the 41st or in the 42nd, when ours retreated - it was possible to count the broken cars after the battle, but in the 44th and 45th.

[Catfish]

Well, hit tanks from a kilometer away ... although it did. But with the calculation and the more so sharing for the whole crew, I myself find it difficult to decide. I know that their anti-aircraft gunners divided the downed planes into the entire battery and painted rings on the trunks. The gradual increase in the number of rings determined the status of the award received by the calculation. But with regard to tankers, I find it difficult to say. I know that they did not regret the awards, but how they calculated to whom - what ...

[svp67]

Quote: Sea Cat

It is really strange with regard to awards, with such an account (168) he should have at least had a Knight's Cross and officer shoulder straps.

The Germans didn’t scatter as officers, knowing full well that you can be an excellent gunner, but a bad commander. Why lose the ace-gunner to get another mediocrity commander
But the score is not surprising. When 10..20 tanks attack each of your tanks, you can always knock out a few of them. It is more difficult to do this when 10 of your comrades are hunting for each enemy tank. Yes, and a wrecked tank, this is still a far from destroyed tank and it can be restored, but it means knocking it down and drawing another ring on the barrel

[Catfish]

When 10..20 tanks arrive on each of your tanks, you can always knock out a few of them.

Sergey, you’re a tanker. On which shot will your upcoming 10-20 tanks take up your car and how will it end?

[svp67]

Quote: Sea Cat

On which shot will your upcoming 10-20 tanks take up your car and how will it end?

This is provided that they can do something with my car. Tank Kolobanova received more than 150 hits, but not one fatal ... The Tiger, for our tanks was a very difficult opponent.

[Catfish]

You know, it seems to me (baptized) that Kolobanov is not quite a typical example of how many cars were beaten with a much smaller number of hits. Yes, the "Tiger" was a serious opponent, but the T-IV, especially the latest modifications, was also a "gift", and the "Panther" should not be discounted, the Kursk Bulge is not an indicator here - the tanks were still "raw".

[svp67]

Quote: Sea Cat

that Kolobanov is not quite a typical example

I do not agree. He is the most typical example of the correct use of technology and the construction of battle. The tank stood there and so that the enemy could not hit him not only in the stern, but even on board. Only in the forehead. And the enemy could not pull up the guns capable of hitting the HF in the forehead.

[Catfish]

I didn't mean exactly what you call "correct use as a typical example". As an example of correct use, of course, this is an Example, but, unfortunately, it is not typical, there were many more directly opposite examples. Kolobanov was As, and there were very few such people. Alas...

[not main]

Quote: Sea Cat

Sea Cat (K

I do not agree! There were many such examples! But we do not know about everyone! But such fights brought our victory!

[Catfish]

No one disputes that successful battles brought our victory closer. As for "there were many examples", you yourself write that "we do not know about all of them." But for sure they were, although speaking of the "set" it is necessary to cite at least a couple of them.
Because not every pilot is Pokryshkin, and not every tankman Kolobanov. Unfortunately, what, in fact, is a conversation.

[not main]

Unfortunately, I must agree. Yes, I will not immediately find examples. I think it's not fair to use the Internet. But I know that Kozhedub shot down two "amers" in 45, and there are 17 more in Korea! True, this is from Chinese sources. Ours are still silent.

[Catfish]

Our people generally were silent for a very long time that they had fought in Korea. Stupid policy of silence, and the country should know its heroes.

[Serg koma]

Quote: Sea Cat

Stupid silence policy

"Don't be silent"; "Stupid politics" ???
And what would happen if the USSR officially, i.e. declared war on UN peacekeeping forces? By the way, the PRC did not participate in that war either. , again politics, there were only "volunteers" from China
And the planes painted, and they changed their form, and in every possible way concealed their participation ...
With this "stupid policy" the USSR and the PRC prevented the third world war.
PS The awards were received by the Soviet, but without pomp and “scheduling of exploits” in the media.

[Catfish]

With this "stupid policy" the USSR and the PRC prevented the third world

They did not prevent anything from this, the leadership of all interested countries was well aware that the Russians were fighting in Korea, and almost by name. And such trifles as publications in the media never served as a reason for starting a war. The whole question is in the decision of those on whom the adoption of this decision depends. Remember what they wrote in our and German press literally on the eve of June 22nd.
But the younger generation of our boys at that time would not hurt to know how Soviet pilots shot down American planes. A vivid example is more convincing than any words.

[svp67]

Quote: non-primary

But we do not know about everyone!

Well, why, we know something ...

Tank Commander BT-7 of the 9 Tank Regiment of the 5 Tank Division Sergeant G. Naydin received orders to delay the advance of the German tank column to the east at all costs. Arriving at 25 on June 1941 on the site of the future battle, Sergeant Naydin really appreciated the situation and came to the conclusion that the swamped meadow on both sides of the road would become a good ally to him. Disguising his tank among the trees near the road, Sergeant Naydin, expecting the enemy, accurately calculated the strategy of the future battle to the smallest detail. Therefore, when a column of German tanks PzKpfw II and PzKpfw III with artillery trailers appeared on the road and approached an ambush tank at a distance of 400 meters, Naydin opened aimed fire on it. From the first shots, Naydin knocked out the lead tank with the attached gun, and then knocked out the second tank, which closed the convoy. Thus, a traffic jam formed on the road, which deprived the column of maneuver. Taking advantage of the confusion and even panic of the Germans, Naydin began methodically to shoot the column. German tanks were unable to detect the position of the Soviet tank during the time and fired indiscriminately in different directions. Sergeant Naydin developed such a rate of fire that in half an hour he destroyed 12 German tanks and 10 guns. Having suffered significant losses, the Germans made an attempt to bypass the swamp, but Sergeant N. Naydin clearly calculated the possible actions of the Germans and changed the position of his tank, bringing it as close as possible to the place of a probable breakthrough. The sergeant’s calculation turned out to be correct, and soon enemy equipment fell into the shelling sector of his tank’s guns. The battle with enemy tanks flared up again. In this unequal battle, N. N. Naydin knocked out three more German tanks. The others, realizing the futility of their efforts to break through, turned back.

For this battle and the courage and heroism shown at the same time, by decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR of June 3 of 1944 to the tank commander, already at that time, the 5th tank brigade, Lieutenant Naydin Grigory Nikolayevich was awarded the title Hero of the Soviet Union.

That's really HOW he did it, but on BT-7 ?????? And he was not so alone.

[Serg koma]

Quote: svp67

And he was not so alone.

March 26, 1944 Junior Lieutenant Grigory Ivanovich Pegov - 31st Panzer Brigade of the 29th Panzer Corps of the 5th Panzer Army of the 1st Baltic Front, hit the PzKpfw V Panther with the first shot on the T-70 tank, and the next tank PzKpfw V Panther killed the sloth and the crew hastened him. The remaining tanks of the enemy, believing that they had encountered strong anti-tank defenses of the enemy, turned back.
"And one WARRIOR in the field!"

Those same Panthers - CONFIRMED (though adorned these days).

[Snakebyte]

Quote: svp67

That's really HOW he did it, but on BT-7 ??????

From ambush to board. The "Panzers" have a maximum of 30mm armor, it can be fully penetrated from 20K.

[svp67]

Quote: Snakebyte

From ambush to board.

Kolobanov did the same as his feat, but received in response 150 hits. But he was on HF, and then BT-7 and one hit would be enough for him to shut up forever. But somehow I got out

[Serg koma]

Quote: svp67

Yes, and a wrecked tank, this is still a far from destroyed tank and it can be restored, but it means knocking it down and drawing one more ring on the barrel

Draw more than four "rings".
In the battle of Prokhorovka on July 12, 1943, the 5th Guards Tank Army lost 450 vehicles out of 670, and on July 29, the 5th Guards Army had 503 tanks. Repair services restored up to twenty-five tanks a day.
Over the years of the war, 430 repairs of tanks and self-propelled artillery units (self-propelled guns) were carried out. On average, every tank and self-propelled guns released by industry went through the hands of repairmen more than four times!

[Serg koma]

Quote: Sea Cat

and for a much smaller amount of destroyed enemy equipment

After 1943, this instance was gaining very quickly. The battlefield in most cases remained with US, it would be very difficult for them to confirm the destruction of equipment - hence the question: 168 "confirmed" by whom? The command of the Red Army?

Confirmed loss

[andrewkor]

I think that at the end of the war the situation with personnel in Panzervaffen was the same as in Luftwaffen. Experienced people have already been beaten out, green youth fought something like that. Surviving veterans are worth their weight in gold, and they are not forever!

[Greg Miller]

Their PR is just good, and not the results, which in fact turn out to be exaggerated. Most of these German "ases" of the Panzerwaffe and Luftwaffe either survived the war or died at the very end. And this did not help Germany to win, it was our tanks in September 45 paraded across Berlin !!!

[The leader of the Redskins]

Actually, I always thought that Michael Wittmann was the best ace, and here is such a passage ... Live for a century, learn for a century. Thanks to the author!

[Vitaly Tsymbal]

And I always thought that the best aces were Pokryshkin and Kozhedub !!!! I do not know the Vitmans - I know that it was not the fascist aces who won, but my grandfathers - Pavel Timofeevich Tsymbal (a front-line driver - died in 1943) and Pavel Feoktistovich Vorobyov (a sapper - bridge bridge that passed from Stalingrad to Berlin, and ended the war on Sakhalin, having won Japanese "samurai") Yes, they are not "ases" - just no one counted how many times my grandfather Pavel Timofeevich delivered ammunition to the front line under the fire of fascist artillery and air strikes, just no one counted how many crossings my grandfather Pavel Timofeevich made with his comrades in Europe and Asia under enemy fire. Let the author say thank you to those for whom evil spirits are more interesting than our real heroes WINNERS !!!!

[The leader of the Redskins]

No matter how much I reduce the merits of your ancestors. And, believe me, here practically, all the relatives fought, died, returned with disabilities.
Can you write something on the composition of the article? Or so, just to shake the air? Did they teach history at school? And in military schools and academies, by the way, they do not hesitate to study tactics using the examples of the enemy and teach to know the enemy by sight.

[Vitaly Tsymbal]

Where are you, academician, about tactics read ??? Here is a biography of the ideological fascist and essessian (although for some reason the author forgot to write about this - see photo with essayist emblems). I am not opposed to describing and analyzing the tactics of allies and opponents in the years of the 2nd MV and WWII, I am against biographies of fascist evil spirits. You better write about your ancestors who fought against the Nazis - Let other people recognize their glorious names and deeds. And then they write about the Nazis by last name, but about their own-shy !!! ????

[tatarin1972]

And why, you, decided that he was an SS man? The German tankers had skulls in their buttonholes like the Prussian black hussars, without a lower jaw, the Waffen SS had a skull with a lower jaw.

[Vitaly Tsymbal]

The full name of this tank unit is the 503rd SS Panzer Battalion. Search your search engine ... you will find a lot of evidence that only "true Aryans" served in this battalion. I don’t understand why the author (consciously or not), exposing, as it seems to him, a German tank ace, forgets to point out that this ace, the Esserian, is the color of the nation, which means (according to the rules of fascist propaganda), “heroes from birth” !!! There are very, very many such "made by Goebel propaganda" on the ground, in the sky, and in the sea - so it’s impossible to pull out all this Nazi "into the light of God" under the guise of ordinary soldiers who are not responsible for the crimes ???? Now, if the author titled his material "Asses of Goebel's propaganda come to life in modern Germany" - then there would be a point in this article, and so is the biography of an ideological Nazi with some modest "doubts" ...

[Nehist]

Go down the mat part; learn the full name of the Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 unit! Where do you see the SS here?

[Vitaly Tsymbal]

"Mate part" I know - see "Tank battles of the SS troops". Faye Willie.

[Nehist]

You know bad! Do not confuse the 503 Knispel with this unit-s.SS Pz.-Abt.103 Number changed to s.SS Pz.-Abt.503 22.09/1944. 503 year. As you can see s.Pz.-Abt.04.09.1942 XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX created where Knispel served from the above.

[tatarin1972]

You at least pay attention to the title, Knispel sergeant major, in the waffen SS he would be an obersharfuhrer.

[Antares]

Quote: Vitaly Tsymbal

Let other people know their glorious names and deeds. And then they write about the Nazis by last name, but about their own-shy !!! ????

agree and disagree at the same time ...
I agree that it is interesting to know the names of those who drove the self-propelled gun - which turned out to be better than this ace. That golden shot is worth a lot.
And I do not agree - about all of them are "Nazis" and do not deserve attention.
The enemy was what was needed. Experienced, angry, skillful, cruel (etc.) --- and victory over such is worth it! And it was worth the millions of victims of our country!
They weren't "Depersonalized Maniacs!" - these were also the representatives of the German people. And they were always good soldiers. In perseverance and victories and defeats.
Our country and people defeated a very difficult opponent.
It is stupid to turn victory into absolute hatred for centuries to the defeated enemy.
Consider how you did not win and ...

[Vitaly Tsymbal]

I already wrote, but I will repeat myself. In the format in which the article is presented, for a historically uneducated mind, it is a "hero" who destroyed the enemy, and his biography is described, the biography of a fascist who attacked my country. Not my grandfathers attacked the Germans, Romanians, Hungarians, Italians, etc., but such "heroes". The article does not say about the tactics of heavy tanks in the years of the 2nd MV, but there is a "slight doubt" - was it correct to calculate the number of destroyed tanks for this fascist? Not only is the surname of this fascist aggressor mentioned 31 times (in a small piece of material), so why is it also indicated 2 surnames of his crew commanders. This is how the author speaks "unobtrusively" of the Nazi ... True, forgetting to point out about the losses of the crews of German heavy tanks, forgetting to point out that these tanks worked effectively only from ambushes at long distances, which were covered (diverted the main fire of anti-tank crews) with lighter and maneuverable tanks, etc. For some reason, speaking about the German, the author did not even remember a half-word for comparison about our heroes tankers ...
I would like to believe that the author did not do his material specifically, but .... then there is nothing to be surprised when Russian children almost repent for the fact that their great-grandfathers destroyed the German invaders who killed more than 20 million Soviet people.

[Manas manas]

Of course I understand that you have a brain patriotism! But not knowing the enemy is difficult to win the war!

[Vitaly Tsymbal]

Of course, I understand that you have anti-patriotism of the brain! But the enemy destroyed 75 years ago is not being studied to win the war today! To win a war, you need to know not the enemy, but the enemy (as they say, those who served in the army).

[Manas manas]

Everything is clear with you! Another victorious bearer! My friend you need a doctor! Your patriotism rolls over.

[Vitaly Tsymbal]

Eh, it's a pity that you did not indicate which country you live in ... so it is difficult for me to give you recommendations like yours))) Your diagnosis is not correct. My internationalism is skyrocketing, a "complication" after Afgan)))

[Manas manas]

My friend! Contusion is also treated

[Vitaly Tsymbal]

Believe me - not curable! Maybe you are a doctor who can really cure, or you just write nonsense)))

[evgeniy.plotnikov.2019mail.ru]

Exactly. Our grandfathers did not consider them to be any asses, supermen, ... They beat and beat. ,, In the tail and mane ,,. Since 1944, little girls have been doing. ,, Before the ambush ,, and ,, after ,,, they made out albums of their parts ... They beat them planned, calmly, competently （when they didn’t push them on top or didn’t get carried away by themselves ,,） Up to EVERY knocked down enemy car was fixed with photos. ..And not only, moral pleasure, received, but also cash prizes. The Germans themselves are sensible warriors, those of them who didn’t have a snout in the cannon ,,, were not opposed to surrendering to the Soviet troops in 1945 ... And they built with a banner, and built crews in front of their fighting vehicles, and Reported, as expected, to senior Soviet officers. RESPECTED WINNERS

[Vitaly Tsymbal]

Author!!! We don’t have our own heroes of tankers - it’s enough to write about the Nazis! Or maybe even propose to erect a monument to this fascist? All this evil must be forgotten.
If Ryabov has a bad memory - I remind you: During the Great Patriotic War, more than 1200 tankmen became Heroes of the Soviet Union. More than 110 citizens of the Soviet Union were awarded the second Gold Star medal. Among them are representatives of various branches of the army, military leaders, generals. Among those who were twice marked by the Motherland the highest distinction - the title of twice Hero of the Soviet Union, there were sixteen of our courageous tankmen. Here are their names: Arkhipov V.S., Aslanov A.A., Bogdanov S.I., Boyko I.N., Gusakovsky I.I., Dragunsky D.A., Katukov M.E., Kravchenko A.G. ., Lelyushenko D.D., Rybalko P.S., Slyusarenko Z.K., Fomichev M.G., Khokhryakov S.V., Chernyakhovsky I.D., Shutov S.F., Yakubovsky I.I. Three twice Hero Tankers (Aslanov A.A., Khokhryakov S.V. and Chernyakhovsky I.D.) died the death of the brave on the battlefields of World War II.
It is necessary to write about the exploits of these people - the warriors of the WINNERS of fascism, and not about the "heroes" from the Goebel propaganda.

[Astronaut]

I fully support !!! It's just nice to read such reviews. It's a pity only one "+" can be put

[Earthshaker]

All this evil must be forgotten.

And it turns out that our grandfathers fought against the vacuum. We must remember which enemy they defeated.

[Vitaly Tsymbal]

For Earthshaker (Alexander)
Let us recall all the "Hitler's heroes" by name, there is no need to write about the Soviet ones (look how many materials about the fascists, and how many about our victorious grandfathers) - so, in your opinion, you need to preserve the history of the Great Victory of 1945. And the fact that the Nazis reached Moscow, Stalingrad, Elkhotovo is an indicator of the Nazis' weakness, this "vacuum" was coming. Our trouble is that admiring other people's "heroes", we forget ours !!!!

[Earthshaker]

Firstly, neither I nor the author admire the Nazis. Secondly, I agree with you, our heroes need to be remembered and written about their exploits. Thirdly, articles like this one are also needed to debunk the Nazi heroization.

[Looking for]

You and your comments, and raise them to the rank of "knights without fear and reproach." Geeks and Ki !!! HOLUIE !!!. RANGE UNDER THE PATRIOTS.

[Earthshaker]

And I'm not a patriot, lately this word is abusive.

[qQQQ]

Quote: Earthshaker

And it turns out that our grandfathers fought against the vacuum. We must remember which enemy they defeated.

I agree that you need to know the truth about the enemy, no matter how pleasant it is, otherwise we will return to our legendary hats.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

It is necessary to write about the exploits of these people - the warriors of the WINNERS of fascism, and not about the "heroes" from the Goebel propaganda.

A word in defense of the Author!
The last three years, I have been doing informational and analytical work. In fact, "sifting grain from the chaff." Especially in the documents, the slogan and populist nature of the statements of the subjects of control annoy me. After reading your dear colleague your comment, sorry inspired!
So substitute slippers!
The first one. Before you "climb on an armored train," you must be the author of at least a dozen works, then understanding and respecting the work of a colleague, you may have a moral right to condemn him for something.
The second one. Populism, throwing the obvious into the air is nothing more than a banal attempt to cut down “likes”! Does the author dispute the feat of our grandfathers and great-grandfathers or their victory? No and no again! Trite The author is looking for the truth, trying to figure out and analyze.
The third. Very advanced forum users feed on the history and weapons of the site, some of them have unique knowledge, which as a whole allows you to turn any article into a highlight! And sometimes the volumes of the raisin article and the cake comment are comparable !!!
Conclusion! Do you want to read the work about G. Zhukov, there are no questions, write, and we will read! And comment if you like it !!!
P.S. I sincerely do not like the consumer attitude to intellectual work!

[Vitaly Tsymbal]

Dear colleague (I also worked in the information and analytical field for more than 10 years). So, starting to analyze the material, I always asked myself the question: for what purpose was the material written and what audience is it aimed at. And then I determine the level (quality) of the material.
But it's not for me to tell you about this, I hope that without me you know all the subtleties of information analytics. I'll start with the "armored train" ....
First: As you understand, I know the work of those who write not only informational materials, but also ... even slogans))) Therefore, I can "sift the wheat from the chaff". The first article, in my opinion, is a hackneyed annotation of the book by the German historian Franz Kurowski "Feldwebel Kurt Knispel". Therefore, I do not understand the purpose of publishing this article in a publication that is a means of MASS information, and not a narrow-profile site on the history of the 2nd MV. (The word mass is an indicator that the published articles are designed for a reader with any level of knowledge and life experience, and not between authors and narrow specialists). I am a reader of the Voennoye Obozreniye mass publication and I have to express my opinion and emotions. I DO NOT CHALLENGE THE HISTORICAL TRUTH OF THE MATERIAL, I SHOW MY EMOTIONS. Maybe this information is interesting to someone, but if it were published in a scientific publication (where everything is "in the subject"), I would positively evaluate the author. I would appreciate it for giving me a guideline for further work on a narrow topic. But VO, again, is the media.
Second. Likes to me on a drum, likes are necessary for those who earn on them))) I do not hide my name and surname behind "Internet nicknames" and do not change them for the sake of the "flickering" frequency. Therefore, before advising someone "about likes and paotriotism" - ask who you are dealing with. Moreover, you work in the information and analytical field.
The third. I repeat - I AM NOT A WRITER, I A READER)))
By the way, about "it is necessary to be the Author of at least a dozen works, then understanding and respecting the work of a colleague, you may have a moral right to scold him for something" - on the basis of what facts and data you are a friend so "categorically hinting" that I have no works of authorship? Probably because I don't write articles in the media ??? Take my word for it - there are (how many - did not count), but I am not a journalist or a blogger. I do not want to write about what I wrote and list, because there will be who will accuse me of bragging))))
RESULTS: Material for the media - secretly propagandizes the Nazis. The material for a narrow-profile publication is quite popular information about a new source of replenishment of the invoice in the framework of the study.

[Astra wild]

Vitaly, you almost voiced my thoughts: WE NEED TO KNOW YOUR HEROES, but among the heroes you listed, how many ordinary tankers? If the author spoke about Guderean, it is NECESSARY to recall our illustrious generals: Katukov, Lelyushenko. Compare their biographies and REAL merits.
The author tells the biography of an ordinary enemy and doesn’t even tell so much, but sifts the husk. It is appropriate to recall our ordinary tankers in order to compare their biographies with real merits.
Here on the site more than once it flickered that the German pilots had a somewhat simplified criterion by which they defended the victory: the plane was smoking, it was already a victory, or maybe the motor was buggy there? So maybe with Wittmann or Knispel

[Manas manas]

I agree with you! Let’s write only about our own, we will leave the rest into oblivion! It was the USSR that won the war and no one else! The enemies had no heroes and only cowards! You wait a bit, they will soon introduce cheburnet and Russia will live in a vacuum!

[Vitaly Tsymbal]

The Great Patriotic War was won by the SOVIET PEOPLE, the victory in the 2nd World War was the anti-Hitler coalition. Of course, if your ancestors fought on the side of Nazi Germany, then you need to preserve the memory of the heroes of Nazi Germany, it is true to remember how their heroism ended and not repeat their exploits)))

[Kasym]

Vitaliy, I support. We would have more information about our heroes of the Second World War.
My friend's father was twice a prisoner and both times fled, partisan. The Germans called him "Black Ivan". "Iconostasis" would impress everyone. And what is interesting, when the partisans joined the regular troops, he went to his unit, where he had been "buried" long ago. Later he taught at KazSU, lawyer.
Two grandfathers also fought with me. One from near Stalingrad (why not the Russian Federation return the old name of this city?) Crippled back, was the chairman of the collective farm until the men returned from the war; and met the second victory in Vienna, also the whole wounded man returned. Both of us are no longer among us, but the memory is still alive - the son is constantly asking, he somehow bought a uniform (the truth has grown from her, but he is putting on a cap and a belt with a CA star).

[tatarin1972]

Photo portrait of the driver of the T-34 tank Mikhail Smirnov after the end of the battle.



During an attack on German positions, an enemy anti-tank gun shell hit directly on the T-34's forehead. The entire crew died except for Mikhail, who for some time lost consciousness. Recovering, Smirnov accelerated the tank and burst into German positions, crushed three anti-tank guns and destroyed 30 more enemy soldiers and officers from the machine gun.



The photo was taken immediately after the battle ended.

January 17, 1944, Leningrad Region.



Mikhail Sergeevich Smirnov will die in six months in Latvia, on July 29, 1944.

[Golovan Jack]

Quote: tatarin1972

and destroyed another 30 enemy soldiers and officers from the machine gun

Where did the mechanic in 34 ke get a machine gun? Or I don’t understand what? I'm not thirty-four, if it is

[tatarin1972]

Nearby is the course DT-27 in a ball installation, you can reach by hand.

[WapentakeLokki]

Not at all derogatory about our aces but .. Kolobanov proved himself in 41 not KV-1 and his opponents were LIGHT tanks (Pz II and Pz III) and against their background the UNBREAKABLE KV shone .. but after appearing in 43 (in droves ) Tigers and Panthers .. the number of our tank aces ... and for example historically - they were there, those who beat the Tigers in dozens or. 5-9 T-34s crushed single Tigers in a crowd ... and even SAU-152 is not a panacea they could, with luck, kill one or two Tigers (but not TEN) .. Yes, the crowd and the Old Man are easier to beat but .. and we and, especially the allies with their Shermans, after the 43rd to the end There were no war tank aces like Deutsche for there was no similar ratio of performance characteristics (yeah theirs Aht-aht against our 85 mm and even 122-152 mm and allied long-barreled 75 mm ... and who was killer ?? and do not exalt our 122 mm with separate charging and scanty BC, I’m silent about our optics and sights - well, obviously not Karl Zeiss .. no ??) .. I summarize; the Nazis relied on a sort of Knight with thick armor and a long spear, and we are on a crowd of light cavalry - well, like the Monogolo Tatars, yes they don’t have such armor but THERE ARE MANY .. really many .. and they will eventually trample any oh ... well, and the price of each battle .. such are tank aces with 50-100 frags but ... because we will not stand the PRICE ...

[EvilLion]

"Tigers" were built 1300+, "royal" a little less than 500. The question is, could our grandfathers, during the war, shoot at least a noticeable number of "tigers", if the Germans simply never had them in large numbers? Do not write nonsense about some kind of bet on armor, the IS-2 is not weaker, if not stronger than the "tiger", and the "panther" in terms of protection in the realities of 43 and especially 44 years does not differ much from the T-34, the same cardboard due to the fact that building up the power of guns is easier than protecting tanks. The Pz-IV with additional bolt-on armor versus the 85mm cannon is simply not serious. Plus, the Germans had just a lot of armored vehicles, that's really where the cardboard is made of cardboard.

As for our 122 mm, the awesome barrel, not inferior in accuracy 88/71. 28 shells, but in practice up to 42 they fired at the IS-2 is enough to calm any Pz, but they do not shoot at 20 rounds before hitting each other.

The British 17-pound, 76 mm caliber is just death to any iron on the tracks, unlike the ZiS-3, which is light and against tanks because of the scanty charge, so-so, and 85 mm for this were, 17-pounder is the unit in terms of weight and power level is comparable to "akht-aht".

[Mountain shooter]

All these asss ... Add up the number of their victories ... There were not so many tanks in the Red Army. With a margin several times ...
Dr. Goebbels created the image of a super-soldier hero, and he did not need real indicators

[Zufei]

And the PARMs of the Soviet fronts "pounded pears"? After 1943, the tanks were rebuilt several times. So the number of "victories" is naturally overestimated, but there is a place to be. But knocking out the TOTAL - who is in Berlin?

[qQQQ]

Quote: Mountain Shooter

There were not so many tanks in the Red Army

I don’t agree here, count how many teshes of all kinds have been released, lendlis, there are a lot of not even units, tens of thousands, they have gone somewhere. History must be known without embellishment, and showing the professionalism of the enemy, we only exalt the heroism and skill of our ancestors.

[shinobi]

And even if it’s elevated. Moreover, we are doing it weakly. Look at the USA, how their propaganda works competently. Their average person already says that they left Germany. If this is not done, after 20 years our average person will say the same. If not worse.

[qQQQ]

Quote: shinobi

Moreover, we do it weakly

I completely agree, our propaganda works on a different order, it shows how bad it is in Ukraine and how good it is with us, nobody cares about history - they won’t pay a lot.

[tesser]

Quote: shinobi

Their layman already says that they beat Germany

Some strange formulation of the question. Most of the Wehrmacht soldiers died in the East, most of the Japanese died in China. The war in Europe ended at Eisenhower's headquarters in Reims, and the war in Asia ended aboard the Missouri. What should they, the poor, write now that they just adjusted the buffet table both times? Eisenhower and Truman later made excuses why the former let Susloparov into his headquarters, and the latter did not send Stalin to hell with his idea of ​​re-signing the surrender in Karlshorst. We barely got out then.

[igordok]

Even without outright lies, counting "wins" is a tricky thing. The same tank as a trophy can be recorded by tankers, artillerymen, and infantry. And if a damaged tank was restored, then several times.
Yes, and knock out KV and T-26 - different complexity. You can knock out a dozen T-26 - you will be considered an ass, but try to knock out the HF. (The beginning of the Second World War)

[lwxx]

During the years of World War II, 74 tanks were built in the USSR (the data vary slightly but approximately), plus 576 tanks at the beginning of the war, of which 25 were operational (combat ready) - more than 621%. Well, the cherry on the cake from the USA was received 19; from Britain - 997. Well, the Germans, of course, are still those statistics lovers; according to their calculations, they destroyed us directly by hordes for each soldier.

[Yeti suvorov]

Military production by country
(Tanks and self-propelled artillery)
USA = 148,410 (124,067)
USSR = 105,251 (92,595)
Germany = 46,857 (37,794)
Great Britain = 27,896
Canada = 5,678
Japan =? 2,515 or? 5,800
Italy =? 2,473 or? 2,68
Hungary =? 500 or? 710
Mongolia =? 45 or? 12
Romania = 105 (72)

The total resource of tanks and self-propelled guns that the Red Army had in the war with Germany was 131700 combat units (22600 were in service with the spacecraft by June 22, 1941, plus production and supply under Lend-Lease). On May 9, 1945, the Soviet Union had 35200 tanks and self-propelled guns
Of. Owls data (GlavUpra of armored forces of the Red Army on lost tanks and self-propelled guns (recently declassified)) - The irretrievable losses of tanks and self-propelled guns of the Red Army from 1941 to 1945 amounted to 96500 combat units.
By the beginning of World War II (September 2, 1.09.1939), Germany had 3200 tanks (there were no assault guns yet). During the war years (by May 1945) the Third Reich produced 46300 tanks and self-propelled guns. Thus, the total resource that the Wehrmacht had in the war was 49500 combat units. At the time of surrender, there were still (in combat units on the territory of Germany itself, as well as in Italy, Norway, Austria and Czechoslovakia, in reserve, at training bases and factory territories) about 4500 tanks and assault guns. Consequently, the losses of the Wehrmacht during the war amounted to 45000 combat units in all theaters of operations.
By the beginning of World War II (September 2, 1.09.1939), Germany had 3200 tanks (there were no assault guns yet). During the war years (by May 1945) the Third Reich produced 46300 tanks and self-propelled guns. Thus, the total resource that the Wehrmacht had in the war was 49500 combat units. At the time of surrender, there were still (in combat units on the territory of Germany itself, as well as in Italy, Norway, Austria and Czechoslovakia, in reserve, at training bases and factory territories) about 4500 tanks and assault guns. Consequently, the losses of the Wehrmacht during the war amounted to 45000 military units.
from 45000 it is necessary, first of all, to take 1600 tanks and self-propelled guns lost by Germany from 1.09.1939/22.06.1941/32550 to XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX = XNUMX
as well as in other theaters of war
According to official Soviet data, the Germans lost 75% of their tanks and assault guns on the Eastern Front.
75% of 43400 - 32550.
The ratio of losses in tanks and self-propelled guns between the USSR and Germany amounted to 2,96 to 1.
http://tankfront.ru/ussr/losses.html

True trophies are not taken into account, if desired, you can find these numbers

[sergo1914]

We summarize the victories of the tank / air aces of Germany. We take the statistics of the production of tanks / planes of the USSR. Add Lend-Lease (I remember Vyacheslav Olegovich). Add repaired / returned to service. Compare. Few victories. The Germans were clearly modest.
PS For those in the tank. C - sarcasm.

[Mountain shooter]

Quote: sergo1914

The Germans were clearly modest.

By airplanes? Tanks - well, they really could be repaired more than once. But a downed plane is unlikely to be repaired. I have a book on the asses of the Luftwaffe. Here are the first three hundred aces to summarize just as many planes the USSR did not have. One Hartman is worth it. More than 350 shot down. And he began to fight in the 43rd, it seems.

[Ros 56]

Will the fascists who destroyed our fathers and grandfathers discuss?

[Narak-zempo]

Let us discuss those who fought only on the Western Front, and killed small Britons, mattresses and paddles.

[Ros 56]

Yes, even discuss round the clock, I expressed my attitude to these creatures, and you can even kiss them in the ass.

[Narak-zempo]

Well, those who did not kill our ancestors, but only ours allies future geopolitical opponents, it turns out, not so creatures.

[shinobi]

Calculations are a separate special art of the West in general and of the Germans during the war in particular. The numbers can be safely divided into 3

[Aviator_]

The article is informative, I did not see any propaganda of the Nazi Wehrmacht here. Many people have already been born who need to explain previously obvious things. Otherwise they will be like "Kolya s Urengoy". The author only had to concentrate more on the sources: what kind of newspaper is this - "Folkishe Beobachter", whose department published (I. Goebbels), that is, to highlight this rotten source more clearly. And I would like to learn more about the methodology for calculating victories, but thanks for that too.

[vnord]

"The tankers declared 27 victories to the results of the Battle of Kursk ...." Here you can believe if the opponents were mainly our tankers on the T-60 and T-70 ... ... .... In principle, a land mine from a tiger would be enough for light tanks.

And here you understand what efforts it took our grandfathers to break the German car and at what cost ..

[shura7782]

Ugly, but monotonous!

Ugly - this is if the calculation method does not suit someone.
Monotonously - it means a technique - one for all.
According to their methodology, it is believed that the tanker is productive. Even if you remove half of the victories - an impressive figure. The fact that he remained in service from the beginning to the end of the war also draws attention to himself. What is skill multiplied by luck? Quite possibly. Not everyone was so lucky. One fight was enough for someone.

[alexey alexeyev_2]

The author tied me .. I have this book .. All the same, Wittmann can be considered the first tank ace .. But the question is. The same daring Wittmann showed the result while he fought in the east ... How was transferred to the west -as the grandmother whispered-the result fell. The situation is the same as in the Luftwaffe. In the West you won’t get yourself an extra dozen victories .. But in my opinion, Dmitry Lavrinenko was the best and unsurpassed tank ace. For half an hour 22 tanks !!! I rafigachil entire regiment .. And everything is documented by the Germans themselves ..

[Zufei]

For half an hour 22 tanks !!! I rafigachil whole regiment .. And everything is documented by the Germans themselves.

Can I link to such an epic feat?

[alexey alexeyev_2]

To blame - mixed up with Zinoviy Kolobanov

[tesser]

Quote: Aleksey Alekseev_2

transferred to the west - as the grandmother whispered - the performance has fallen .. The same situation as in the Luftwaffe

Hans-Yohim Marseille looks at you as at the P-40.

[alexey alexeyev_2]

Yes, and a dog to him. Let him look .. Well, you found an example .. The most stupid plane. According to the feedback of our pilots. Yes, and Marcel fought yours in Africa .. Who will confirm the shot down in the sand .. Well, if you shot Toda over the territory of Germany, yes .. Hartman, with all his might, kicked back from moving to the west. In the east, he attributed his victories with impunity .. In the sky of Germany, such a feint would not have passed

[tesser]

Quote: Aleksey Alekseev_2

The most stupid plane. According to the reviews of our pilots

This is the main fighter of the US Army Air Force until 2/2 of the 43rd year. They, too, at first believed that the bombers would fly.

Quote: Aleksey Alekseev_2

Now, if I shot down over the territory of Germany

The Reich Air Force also came across pilots with big scores. Another thing is that 1000 strategists + 1500 fighters are not 20 IL-2 + 20 Yaks. By the 44th, the Allies had learned to realize the numerical advantage.

Quote: Aleksey Alekseev_2

Hartman did his best to kick back from moving west

But Novotny did not kick back when he was N1 in the Luftwaffe.

Quote: Aleksey Alekseev_2

In the east, he attributed impunity to himself with impunity.

Hartmann's attributed victories are an Internet warrior marker. Let's say he attributed half. 180 is not enough for you, or what?

[alexey alexeyev_2]

Here I have a book: The Reich Blond Knight, authors Tolliver and Constable .. Hartman’s biography, re-read several times. I’ve tried to understand .. It’s all about the difference in tactics in the Red Army and the Luftwaffe. The Germans are mostly free hunters. The same Hartman could have put an order to escort the bombers. and he won’t have anything. And our hawk would try to drop his wards. He’d have his genitals cut into nickels .. Without anesthesia. Because the fighter is like a combat unit — zero Bomber-force .. If you are not too lazy, look for the number of bombers shot down by Hartman. He’s a bomber for years hoots with a shooter .. And there were up to a dozen firing points on American fortresses. So there was no benefit from Hartman. When he was pulled by a mustang, he drove a parachute and threw a working car .. Somewhere at 43, we were allowed to hunt freely. Here Kozhedub and clicked on three heroes. By the way, in the book I did not find a description for Hartman to participate in a dog dump, so beloved by our pilots ...

[tesser]

Quote: Aleksey Alekseev_2

authors Tolliver and Constable ..

Oh yeah. When I read, it was an impression that they would have taken off about him. Some indecent love.

Quote: Aleksey Alekseev_2

Germans are mostly free hunters

Not "mostly", but the Germans 200+. Naturally, all tops are free hunters. Both Bong and Kozhedub. On escorts, even the Americans fired 20 frags at most, and then, most likely, 5 applications for the same aircraft from fighters and from gunners.

Quote: Aleksey Alekseev_2

Hartman could have succumbed to an order to escort the bombers. And he won’t be anything.

As a rule, he was not given such orders. With the discipline of the Germans, on average in a hospital, it was decent. 176 GVIAP also rarely did rough work, this is normal practice.

Quote: Aleksey Alekseev_2

Hartman participated in a dog dump so beloved by our pilots ...

Dog dump - a sign of that. While you are spinning, your drummers will leave naked and fall under the next German. He drove away, even with tracks along the nose - and wali, catch up with your own.

Quote: Aleksey Alekseev_2

I tried to understand everything ... It's all about the difference in tactics

1. Free hunting.
2. The abyss in the raid of Hartmann, who already flew as a kid himself, and the average Soviet young pilot - twenty-hour.
3. The huge work of the Germans, the ratio of applications to flights at Hartmann and Kozhedub is about the same. Hartmann flew factor of more. He was born in America, after 10-20 frags he would have gone home as an instructor, like the same Bong. Which (Bong) almost illegally in the 44th flew to fight.
4. Phenomenally lucky, devil. Some Marcel chick - and already in heaven, and this was shot down, shot down, even taken prisoner, but never shot down.
5. Yes, he was born a fighter. This happens.
6. Ah, I almost forgot. Equipment. Yes, Messer was still better, especially in the thieves.

[alexey alexeyev_2]

Here I was struck by an episode in his biography. Described by Constable. He flew off before hunting and reported on the shot down. After breakfast, he flew off and reported on two shot down. When the guns began to reload, it turned out that Hartman had spent only 4 shells.! And what do you want to think .. Well, about the Messer is better, Well, I don’t know. German ace Baer was shot down over the Baltic Sea on the 3rd day of the war by an I-16 pilot. He hung out on the water for three days .. It’s a pity he didn’t die. The name of the pilot who shot him down did not survive. .

[tesser]

Quote: Aleksey Alekseev_2

it turned out that Hartman spent only 4 shells.!

It seems you have artistically rethought this episode

"Something is wrong?"

"No, everything is okay. You just made a total of 120 shots at 3 downed planes. I think you need to know that. ”

Given Hatramann's love for extremely small distances, there is nothing incredible in this case. McCampbell, America's No. 1 fleet, recorded 9 Zeros in one sortie (and 15 pair), nothing, he had all the rules, Medal of Honor, all cases, USS McCampbell (DDG-85) of the "Arleigh Burke" type.

[karabass]

And he never took part in landfills - after the Second World War he received 10 years in camps.When he sat with us, his tactics were thoroughly studied and they came to the conclusion that it was no longer suitable for anyone, in an inexplicable way he could raise the plane to a height unattainable for other pilots, and then he simply attacked from the direction of the sun and everyone. When asked which battle he remembered most, he replied that when he could not shoot down "RUS_FANER" y - 2, and he didn’t even remember the others. There was even a thought that he would try to raise our planes, but for reasons of prestige it was abandoned
Now, with regard to this Fritz - he had a unique super-panoramic vision (which of you participated in the battles you know that 90% of people tunnel tunnels in battle, especially at first, and this fascist’s vision expanded at the time of danger) is the reason for his success in battles

[tesser]

Quote: karabass

he had a unique super-panoramic vision

Unique physiology is not the answer. If there was no Hartmann - there would be Barkhorn, there is not much difference. Such statistics of 200+ and 100+ pilots suggests systemic causes. Unfortunately, not only from the German side.

[Nehist]

Gg! Backlash also went to escort the bombers! That's just a tactic was different to which the Red Army Air Force came only to 44

[tatarin1972]

The Luftwaffe cleared away rather than escorted.

[abc_alex]

Quote: Aleksey Alekseev_2

I tried to understand everything .. It's all about the difference in tactics in the Red Army and the Luftwaffe.

I think the difference in state. ideology. The Nazis had to constantly prove to the man in the street the second-rate Slavs, and the racial superiority of the Germans, so they generated the image of a "blond beast" in every possible way. Hartman fit perfectly into the model. Therefore, I suppose, his image was "pumped up" artificially. Tactics is tactics, but look what frequency of air battles he gave out. It is three times higher than that of other pilots of his own squadron. Did he have a radar on the plane?

[Flatter]

Military fate favored a certain moment. Considering the average, 4 tanks a month for 4 years of the war. It’s quite an ordinary tankman. We destroyed TM Lyubushkin in 20 months. He was an ace

[iouris]

It is known that most of all lies after fishing and after the war (and not the war). To summarize, then, "intact", we can say that there is a pattern: "whoever works as he fights." Both there and there general and specific knowledge, abilities, skills, quick learning ability, physical and psychophysiological data are needed, which are derived from the lifestyle of the mass of the population. This should always be borne in mind, bearing in mind the specific enemy and the balance of forces in the war against this enemy. Probably this tank ace was really an outstanding tanker. However, the number of victories attributed to him is most likely Goebbels' propaganda, so the final figure should be divided by the numbers "pi" or even "pi squared." Perhaps then we will get results that are close to possible. Otherwise, the overall outcome of the war cannot be explained.

[tesser]

Quote: iouris

Otherwise, the general outcome of the war cannot be explained.

Nothing complicated, actually.

At the beginning of the war, the Germans fought with the Kolobanovs in the HF mainly in Soviet propaganda. In reality, they came across mainly T-26 / BT, then T-60 / T-70. The T-34 became a mass machine when it was already something to break through, starting from a long four gun, but even then badly armored Su-76s were not uncommon. In such a situation, units that specialized in PT reinforcement could score impressive bills. But this does not mean that they were a million times more useful than the same Su-76, which, as a rule, didn’t fill a single tank during its life. The work in the Wehrmacht was done by the Shtugs, not the Panthers.

[Vladimir_2U]

As soon as the battlefield ceased to be in the hands of the German fascist invaders, their "accounts" began to grow sharply! There is no one to check it!

[Saboteur Holuy]

The Germans had good tanks, and there paid a lot of attention to study!

[DesToeR]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

As soon as the battlefield ceased to be in the hands of the German fascist invaders, their "accounts" began to grow sharply! There is no one to check it!

I was also surprised by the sharp increase in the number of destroyed tanks after the main battles (summer-autumn 1941 and summer 1943). When there was a high intensity of battles and the battlefield remained with the Germans, the account of the "ace" was modest, but after 1944 some kind of take-off took off. Although if we take the period as a whole, then on average one tank a week knocked out ... quite real.

[Nehist]

No wonder. If you pay attention to the main number of victories tank aces accounted for T-VI and T-V. That is, when the Germans moved to a more modern technique with excellent guns.

[trahterist]

Quote: Greg Miller

Their PR is just good, and not the results, which in fact turn out to be exaggerated. Most of these German "ases" of the Panzerwaffe and Luftwaffe either survived the war or died at the very end. And this did not help Germany to win, it was our tanks in September 45 paraded across Berlin !!!

I am more than sure that all these Hartmann-Rudels-Karius-Wittmann and other "color" of the Reich troops were the same bloated record holders.
There was not less than our own lack of observance for receiving posts and gigantic statistics of results there.
Well, the propaganda is still here.
Let the whole world know what kind of UHVOyaki we have.

[Ryaruav]

I bought a Kurovsky book that I want to say while the army is beginning to defend victories quite easily, because the enemy’s defeated equipment is well identified, but when retreating, yes, I filled up 50 tanks, go check

[bubalik]

,,, tanks, tanks
07 November 1942 two armored personnel carriers from ATGMs destroyed two 20 tanks in one battle !!! Here are HEROES !!!

and Fedor G. Startsev? . 13 January 1943 years when repelling a tank attack knocked out 11 tanks. 17 January, in battle, disabled four more enemy tanks.

[bubalik]

,,, of the tankers, probably Dmitry Sholokhov, in three hours of the 24 tank !!!

[Zufei]

Some "hunting stories", IMHO, of course. 24 tanks in 3 hours. It would be interesting to look at the summary of the losses of the opposing tank unit. Kurt is certainly not an angel either. As Napoleon said: "Victory loves large battalions"

[bubalik]

,,, in any case, regardless of the exact number of tanks wrecked, it was Sholokhov D.D. - the episode had a place to be.

[Zufei]

Of course. I recall a children's film about the prince of Soyet, who played 23 musical instruments. They made a mistake at the printing house: they did not insert a dash in quantity. Actually, 2-3 tools.

[bubalik]

201 TP Germans, on 29 June in the ranks of 93 machines. In the battle of June 30, the division’s tank regiment lost half of the tanks it had destroyed and burned down. At 1 July, only 45 combat-ready vehicles remained in service.

[EvilLion]

And that only the rest of the Red Army was dishonored against them and until 1945 was busy with it, it was necessary to learn from these brothers, and from Panfilov’s.

[ecolog]

How can tank victories be considered adequately? The plane was shot down - it crashed, in most cases to the scrap. A tank, if it does not burn out with the detonation of a BC, can be restored, part of it very quickly. The main condition is to leave the battlefield behind you. What is considered a victory? Burned tank? remaining in your territory? - 100% yes. The rest is harder. He shot down a gusli - a frag, it was repaired, tomorrow he again shot it down - it is not clear.
I read Kurovsky, there wasn’t about Knyspel in that book, but everything was somehow too vigorously fun - we burn t-34 packs, but for some reason we lose. About light tanks like t-60 and self-propelled guns SU-76 not a word, only completely armored monsters T-34, Is-2, ISU.
Many questions.

[age1751]

Disqualification of TNK during battle was considered a victory

[sokol77]

Actually, we were advancing - but according to tactics, the attackers, according to our standards, should be 1 to 3, and in the direction of the breakthrough it was still growing. Try to destroy the tank with a trained crew, and even buried in the tower, disguised, with sometimes spare firing positions. In defense it is always easier, there are landmarks, everything around is shot, in the offensive the principle is: I saw a shot, I don’t see targets around, there’s constant reconnaissance, or until reconnaissance of targets. And, as a rule, the defender opens fire first, letting attackers come closer, and this is the distance of a direct shot, but here you can’t get out without options. Pounded by dozens, both ours and Fritz on the defensive, read the bulletins. And the resources were treated differently. The fritz could have had 126 victories. And on the counting line, you can clearly see who hit the rules, how valuable the rules are - the crew got in, looked, the crew got out, if so, then finished it off, if there was hell left with him so that time to consider up to the car number. What difference did anyone take into account, knocked out, the victory of the whole crew, that is, the tank’s cars, they marked it as victory. And about the awards, maybe the leadership had a deep leadership .... pe, ours wasn’t always given the well-deserved A hero. Why we do not know about our heroes - most likely either the archives are classified or the truth is not entirely presentable, it can shock - true, this is a generation. Yes, everything is true, this is propaganda, but this is a struggle for young minds, this is the whitening of the Enemy and the belittling of our Victory.

[EvilLion]

In fact, the Germans are not very much with the aces tankers who fought on the Pz-IV or even the "Panther", a formally good anti-tank tank, all their heroes fought on the "tigers", that is, in litigation, which at the end of the Second World War were sent much more often for parrying Soviet tank breakthroughs, than went along with the infantry to attack Soviet guns, when the chance to shoot large targets is small, but getting an 85 mm BB is quite weighty.

[Antares]

it was interesting and informative
Thanks to the authors and commentators.

[age1751]

And here "there is no need to stoop to dubious methods"? You don't have to be the smartest. The Germans were able to trace the victories of their fighter. In principle, we couldn't have such a thing. with us they were suicide bombers, they could not live more than a dozen wounded. The statistics of our losses speaks for itself.

[seacap]

I don’t know how objective control of the wrecked cars was conducted, the same term is also dubious, you can set fire to the car, destroy it, or you can shoot down a track or immobilize, which is also considered a wreck. For German pilots, for example, the score was kept on the engines, so the numbers are also prohibitive.

[tank64rus]

"In May 1944, Völkischer Beobachter wrote about the outstanding tanker Knispel, who knocked out 107 enemy tanks. In the coming months, before being transferred to the command position, the score was brought to 126 confirmed and 20 unconfirmed tanks." This is the mouthpiece of Dr. Goebbels to make a hero is one of the methods of military and other propaganda. You read the memoirs of the pilots, tankers of the Wehrmacht are completely superhuman. But one question is why the Russians took Berlin. Delirium over the blockage of corpses is not accepted.

[age1751]

Well, if you do not want to accept "delirium about the blockage of corpses," then the answer to your question is simple. We had dozens of tankers and pilots who personally knocked out hundreds of tanks and aircraft. Only now the statistics of the losses of our tanks more confirm the German data.

[tank64rus]

In general, the main anti-tank weapon in WWII was anti-tank artillery. and the main losses were caused by the tanks plus aviation. Secondly, all these "heroes" were glorified by German propaganda in 1943, when the case of the 3rd Reich became, to put it mildly, not brilliant, and at the same time talk began about weapons of retaliation. There is such a technique in military propaganda, when heroes are needed to raise the military spirit, especially when their deeds are not brilliant. Likewise, all German "heroes" have a sharp increase in performance after or in 1943. And there is also such a tendency that the losing side always wins in their memoirs.

[Trapperxnumx]

I absolutely agree with the last paragraph of the article. Always puzzling is this desire to admire the "achievements" of the enemy. Fascist Germany is the worst nightmare of the 20th century. No one has brought more horror to Europe, more death and destruction than this country, which placed itself above all others. How can you rejoice in their "merits"? Look, such an ace in one battle burned 40 cromwells ... Guys, they must be burned with a red-hot iron from the pages of history, so that even the memory of these scoundrels will not remain. They don't deserve more.

[age1751]

No one admires them. You just need to be aware that we did not defeat the German fools, but professional soldiers using well-made equipment. And to understand what price we paid, and not trynde about about equal losses.

[ser56]

it’s funny how much we write about the Nazis ...
even a fraction of the place would be given to our heroes, tankmen ...
And then they know a little about Lavrinenko, Kolobanov and all ...

[georggy]

Fascist lies.
I believe only in the achievements of Wittmann.

[DeGreen]

The Wehrmacht also had such a storyteller, Otto Carius. Also a tanker. He fought in Estonia. Reading his opus "Tigers in the Mud", you are amazed. Its crew destroyed 30-40 Soviet tanks every day.

[Dedok]

L-39NG (Peter), thank you, for the information on the topic of publication.

[EvilLion]

Lavrinenko scored a score of 52 frags just months before his death, he had someone to wet, which prevented the heavy tanker, and their battalions at the end of the Second World War just threw off parries of Soviet tank breakthroughs and put together a hundred and a half, it is clear that a significant part of these vehicles were then repaired , on average, in WWII the tank burns down somewhere in 20% of cases and is repaired on average 5 times.