Military Review

Flame rearguard battle. The final of the Lyubachev battles

132

The Lyubachev battles ended (see Immortal Oleszyce).


In the fire of rearguard battles


By the morning of the 3 June, the group of V.A. Olokhov took the following positions: 29 Army Corps - Dzikuv Novy - Futory, 2 Army Caucasian - Futory - Tower, units of the 4 Horse Corps covered the infantry withdrawal. So, the already mentioned 8-th Don Cossack battery: “On the 3 of June in the battle near the village of Dobrovo ... under strong rifle and machine-gun fire, becoming openly, intensely fired at the enemy’s dense advancing chains, forced them to stop the attack with their fire and acting, on the flank, inflicting tremendous damage on him, which made him almost cease fire on our retreating infantry, which freely and moved to Dokhnov’s position. ” And the 20-th Don Cossack Regiment: "... stubbornly delayed the advance of the enemy north of the foli. Latoshiki, having in the battle line all hundreds. At this time, the infantry, putting itself in order, calmly began to retreat. "

From a tactical point of view, these battles are of particular interest - as a rule, the Russian infantry defended steadily, but the problem of the neighbors or the leveling of the front forced the unit to begin to withdraw. The “victorious” Germans made tactical mistakes, often acted indecisively and ineptly, but due to the general operational situation and due to overwhelming superiority in material and technical support, they moved forward.

Illustrative in this sense is the following battle of one of the regiments of the 51-th Infantry Division of the 2-th Caucasian Army Corps. The front-line soldier left interesting recollections about the battle of the 202-th Infantry Gori Regiment on the 3-th June near the village of Balai. The 2-th Caucasian Corps moved to the city of Lyubachev, taking up positions east of the latter. The regiment occupied the edge of the forest near the village of Balai on the sides of the railway track - and repulsed a series of attacks by the Germans.

Around noon, enemy infantry chains attacked the combat sites of the 1 and 3 battalions. Artillery foe significantly increased. The battalions withstood the onslaught of the enemy’s thick chains - operating under a hail of heavy and incendiary shells (the village caught fire and the trees fell from explosions of high-explosive shells). Using the fire, they hit before the 3-x German battalions, but in 800-1000 steps from the edge of the forest they were met by such a strong rifle-machine gun fire of the 1, 3-th battalions and parts of the companies of the 4-th battalion that they could not stand and surrendered . Russian light and howitzer batteries with well-aimed and concentrated fire struck the supports and rear chains - as a result, all the attackers fled in disorder, leaving many dead and wounded. The Gorians shot the remaining and fleeing Germans.

Around 13 hours, Russian gunners successfully fired at the German infantry, which had again accumulated at the Lyubachevsky barracks and in the hollow. By the 15 watch, the artillery fire of the Germans became as powerful as possible, with heavy caliber mainly operating. And the German infantry again launched an offensive - with larger forces. The advancing chains were no longer supported by snakes, but by thick columns. The sections of the 1 and 4 battalions were hit. Despite heavy losses from rifle-artillery fire, the Germans were moving almost non-stop forward, with their advanced chains already occupying the heights at the railway booth (500 - 600 steps from the edge of the forest). Russian gunners and machine gunners concentrated maximum fire in the area. Under this fire, the Germans, who were on the south side of the railway, began to withdraw, but under well-aimed machine-gun fire they were forced to lay down. New columns of Germans appeared from Lyubachev, trying to move forward - but the strongest artillery and rifle fire produced devastation in their ranks. The Russian howitzer battery carried the entire area, expelling even from behind the hillocks the support hiding there. And the Russian companies and machine guns sheltered in the bushes with destructive fire completed the rout of the enemy rushing in different directions. At the same time, light batteries were covered with shrapnel fire trying to approach the enemy columns. The attack was repelled.


About 17 hours, after a hurricane fire on the 4 battalion of the Gorians and the Caucasian shooters, the Germans again launched an attack. They acted under the guise of artillery fire, as well as machine guns, processing the approaches to the 4 battalion. The Russians suffered greatly from artillery fire, but the German infantry who rushed to the attack were met by the fire of the 1 and 4 battalions, gunners and machine gunners - and began to scatter along the river, hiding in potholes. Russian gunners moved the fire to the approaches to the village of Mokritsy, attacked by German columns. Despite the well-aimed fire of the Russians, the strongly thinned German chains still managed to approach the Mokritsky trenches - while some Germans occupied the latter, the rest began to bypass the trenches from the south. The latter fell under the well-aimed fire of reserve companies and machine gunners of the 4 battalion - and were destroyed. Under the influence of this fire, the Germans could not stay in the trenches in front of the village of Mokritsy, running along the ditches.

Around 19 hours, artillery of opponents was actively operating: Russian artillery smashed the village. Mokritsy, and the German bombarded the Balaevsky forest. The regiment as a rearguard of the division received an order to withdraw. Losses in this battle are an officer and about 300 lower ranks.

The Germans did not pursue heavy losses.

Flame rearguard battle. The final of the Lyubachev battles

Results and trends


The Supreme Commander-in-Chief summed up the result of the defensive battles of 2 - on the 3 of June. The Headquarters report reported that the German attacks east of San continued, and the enemy, pushing the Russians away from Lyubachevka and San, developed the main efforts on the Lyubachev-Krakovets front. A. A. Brusilov, whose army was threatened with circumventing the right flank, ordered his operational association to withdraw to the Gorodok position - on the night of June 3. Losses are very large. The troops suffered most severely towards Lubachev, where only 51 bayonets remained in the 2400 division. On the 3 of June, the front was located at 15 km north of the original positions on the river. Lyubachevka, moreover, Mr. Lyubachev was still holding on. The army of A. A. Brusilov retreated to the Gorodok position without enemy pressure.


The final stage of Lubachev's defensive operation was the situation by the 3 of June (the 16 of June in a new style) of the 1915 of Der Grosse Krieg. Die Schlacht bei Grodek - Lemberg (Juni 1915). Oldenburg, 1918.

During the defensive battle of Lubachev, the Russian 3 army formations suffered heavy losses. So, in the 3-x divisions of the 24-th army corps there are about 5-thousand bayonets, in the 3-m Caucasian army corps 6 thousand-bayonets, in the 2-m Caucasian army corps 5,3 thousand-bayonets. Corps commanders and division heads reported extreme fatigue of the troops and very large losses.

As a result, on the night of June 4 the decision was made to withdraw the 3 Army from the river. Tanev. The army commander issued an operational order at 12 hours on June 3, in which, due to the departure of the 8 army to the Gorodok position, he ordered his corps to retreat to previously prepared new positions on the right bank of the river. Tanev, for which: 4) The 1 Corps continues to occupy its previous positions on the left bank of the river. San; 15) The 2 corps, remaining on the left bank of the Sana'a, should take a position from Burje to Przyszow Kameralny - Varholi - Borovitsy - Przedzel; 9) 3-th building passes to the right bank of the Sana'a and takes a position from the mouth of the river. Tanev up the river until the river flows into it. Lada; 14) 4-th building takes a position from the mouth of the river. Lada to the village Clay; 10) 5-th Caucasian Corps takes a position from the village. Clays before flowing into the river. Tanev r. Noise (opposite the village of Shostaki); 3) 6-th building takes a position from the mouth of the river. The noise to the village. Borovets; 24) General Olokhov’s group takes the line from the village. Borovets through Lublinets - Novi - Zhukov - Goraets to Brusno Nove; 7) army reserve - the brigade of the 8 division and the 61 consolidated Cossack division (the last after the task of covering the withdrawal of the 2 Caucasian corps) under the command of the head of the 3 consolidated Cossack division, Lieutenant General A. A. Pavlova is concentrated in Belgor ; 2) in the above positions should be defended to the extreme, gradually improving the fortifications and organizing dams on the river; dams - to make impassable or mine; 9) after the army withdraws to the above positions, the general task of the army and the task of the group of General Olokhov remain the same. The departure should have begun at 10 hours on the 22 of June. General Olokhov was ordered to pay particular attention to the connection of his left flank with the right flank of the 3 Army, and the comkors were instructed to conduct early reconnaissance of escape routes to sections of the position assigned to the corps, and to take measures to ensure that the connections followed the positions and took up positions in full order and without fuss.

The group of V.A. Olokhov retreated to the Borovets-Rudka front, while the 8th Army went to the Gorodok position, west of Lviv (along the Vereshchitsa River). Under the pressure of the enemy, the 8 Army on the night of the 7 June 1915 moved from Gorodokskaya to the Lvov position.

The corps of the 3 Army retreated to the positions indicated in the order beyond r. Tanev, and the group of V. A. Olokhov occupied the front of Dombruvka - Zhukov - Rudki with the 29 and 2 Caucasian army corps.


M. D. Bonch-Bruyevich wrote that the Russian 3 Army left Galicia in this way - with victorious losses, it passed victoriously in August 1914 from east to west.

During the battle, the enemy, acting at the junction of the 3 and 8 armies, forced the Southwestern Front to withdraw. The most dangerous moment of the operation was the enemy’s attempt to circumvent the left flank of the 3 Army. The Russian command, finally, begins to pay increased attention to the defense of army and front-line joints. It was to solve this problem that the army group of V. A. Olokhov was specially created. On the other hand, as Quartermaster General Stavki noted, infantry general Yu.N. Danilov, the choice of an area too close to the front to concentrate the Olokhov group led to the fact that on the 3 of June the troops of this group ended up in the battle line, thus losing the opportunity to implement any maneuver. The armies of the South-3western Front continued to "hopelessly lean back."

The troops of the Russian 3 Army were once again seriously affected. Being the main target of the enemy’s influence during the Gorlitsky operation, the 3 Army, due to the small number and heavy fatigue of people, was not able to solve large operational tasks. She could not carry out a full-fledged offensive operation with Lyubachev. During the defensive battle, it turned out that under the fire of powerful artillery of the enemy, with a lack of ammunition and in uncomfortable positions, she would not be able to hold on either. Despite all the negative factors, the Russian troops fought excellently, inflicting heavy losses on the enemy.

Sources of
RGVIA. F. 2007. Op. 1. D. 35. H. 1; D. 42. H. 1; D. 42. H. 5; D. 54. H. 1; D. 54. H. 2;
Year of war. M., 1915;
Chronicle of the war. 1915. 43 number;
Der Grosse Krieg. Die Schlacht bei Grodek - Lemberg (Juni 1915). Oldenburg, 1918;
Österreich-Ungarns Letzter Krieg 1914 -1918. Bd ii. Wien, 1931;
Reichsarchiv. Der Weltkrieg 1914 - 1918. Bd 7. Berlin, 1931;
Reichsarchiv. Der Weltkrieg 1914 - 1918. Bd 8. Berlin, 1932;
Stepun F. From the notes of the ensign-artilleryman. Prague, 1926;
Wevern B.V. 6 Battery. 1914 - 1917 T. 2. Paris, 1938;
Brusilov A. A. My memories. M., 1983;
Popov K. S. Memoirs of the Caucasian grenadier 1914 - 1920. M., 2007.

Literature
The composition of the German army. Warsaw, 1915;
The combat schedule of the Austro-Hungarian army. B. m., 1915;
Great War. 1915 year. Pg., 1916;
Strategic essay on the 1914 war - 1918's. CH 4. M., 1922;
Ritter H. Criticism of World War. Pg., 1923;
Yu. N. Danilov. Russia in World War 1914 - 1915 Berlin, 1924;
Bonch-Bruevich, M.D., Our loss of Galicia in 1915, Part II. M. - L., 1926;
Popov K. Temple of Glory. CH 1. Paris, 1931;
Life Erivans in the Great War. Paris, 1959;
Rubets I.F. Equestrian attacks of the Russian Imperial Cavalry in the First World War - 1915 year // Military Story. 1965. 76 number;
Kersnovsky A. A. History Russian Army. TT. 3 - 4. M., 1994;
Karpeev V.I. Cavalry: divisions, brigades, corps. 1810-1917. M., 2012;
Participate in the War (1914-1918). Washington, 1920.
Author:
Articles from this series:
Immortal Oleszyce
Mackensen is eager for Lyubachev
From offensive to defense. The battle of Lyubachev enters a new phase
8 Army strike group tragedy
Lyubachev battles, May-June of 1915
Final battle for the Radymnensky key to Przemysl
Senyava 1915. Perfect night attack
Bloody Radymno. Gunners, cavalry and plastuy on the path of the "rink" A. Mackensen
Battle of Radymno. First round
Final of the Battle of Yaroslav. Will we hold on to Sana'a?
The struggle for the initiative in the battle of Yaroslav. Two counterattacks
The apogee of the 1915 battle of the year near Yaroslav. Canceled order of Radko-Dmitriev
Heavy May Day under Yaroslav
Battle of Yaroslav. Key position of the Third Army
Battle of a Polish city with a Russian name. CH 1. Bridgehead at Yaroslav
The 3 Caucasian Corps is on the path of a strategic hurricane. Part of 4. Calculations and prospects
The 3 Caucasian Corps is on the path of a strategic hurricane. Part of 3. Day of disaster
The 3 Caucasian Corps is on the path of a strategic hurricane. Part of 2. The backbone of the army group
The 3 Caucasian Corps is on the path of a strategic hurricane. Part of 1. Elite entered into battle
Under the blow "ram" Mackensen
132 comments
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  1. Same lech
    Same lech 23 November 2019 05: 25
    -4
    The trouble for the Russian army in the First World War is the eternal shortage of shells and artillery .... this drawback was filled with the heroism of the infantry, naturally with heavy losses for them ... they had to prepare for the war in advance and not climb into it headlong to please bourgeois interests .. .uria yurya ... with what hopes and enthusiasm and patriotism they entered into this bloody meat grinder ... and reality put everything in its place.

    So many Russian men lost in her ... damn this war.
    1. Albatroz
      Albatroz 23 November 2019 08: 31
      +4
      Not a comment but a pearl))
      The trouble for the Russian army in the First World War is the eternal lack of shells and artillery

      Why eternal? Lack of shells was a natural occurrence.
      And only at a certain stage (spring - autumn 15 for the Russian army) and for all the armies of the First World War, oriented toward a fleeting war and miscalculated both with reserves for a long war and with the rapid mobilization of industry.
      this shortcoming was compensated for by the heroism of the foot soldiers naturally with great losses for them

      It was supplemented by artillery tactics and artillery (Russian) firing quality.
      And the infantry in all the armies suffered heavy losses. Such is the specificity of the war.
      for the sake of bourgeois interests

      At that time, Russia was attacked.
      It was for the sake of the class interests of the RSFSR (not Russia) that unleashed a fratricidal Civil War, the USSR scoured the allies and was left alone against all of Europe in 1941, and then intervened for ideological reasons in Czechoslovakia.
      Having lost
      so many russian men
      1. Dalton
        Dalton 23 November 2019 08: 42
        +5
        Archival data, by the way, provide more than interesting data on the consumption of artillery ammunition in 1915. Not everything fits into the previous version)
    2. Olgovich
      Olgovich 23 November 2019 10: 36
      -2
      Quote: The same LYOKHA
      .. for the war it was necessary to prepare in advance and not climb into it headlong

      They climbed into it exactly same, as in WWII (see History).
      Quote: The same LYOKHA
      So many Russian men lost in her ... damn this war.

      Any war is a disaster.
      But at least understandable.

      But in PEACEFUL 1922, 25, 31, 33, 47 g, Russian men (and even more Russian children) died of hunger / cold, almost 10 times morethan on the battlefields of World War II.

      The civil massacre inside the country, unleashed by the Iliches, killed the Russian peasants SIX times more than what they cursed ... world war.

      So the world war of a host of aggressive states against Russia is a flower, in comparison with those that foreigners from Switzerland unleashed against it.
      1. Alexander Greene
        Alexander Greene 23 November 2019 15: 57
        -5
        Quote: Olgovich
        But in PEACEFUL 1922, 25, 31, 33, 47 g, Russian men (and even more Russian children) died of hunger / cold, almost 10 times more than in the battlefields of the WORLD war.

        Olgievich in his role. It can’t be without nasty things. Only he forgets that, if we take the same period in Russia before the First World War, then people died from starvation and cold and from diseases, no less than on the fields of the First World War. Especially children, my cousin in those days had 17 children - three survived.
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 24 November 2019 10: 44
          -3
          Quote: Alexander Green
          Olgievich in his role. It can’t be without nasty things. Only he forgets that if you take same period in Russia before the first world war, then from hunger and cold and from diseases people died no less than in the fields of the first world war.

          So take this period, liar and prove it.

          Outperform, yes, the Bolshevik learned demographers and propagandists who are failed and shy .. yes

          We must not forget what has never been in nature.

          Bolshevik peaceful the hunger you ashamed, hid and afraid- were the worst in human history until the middle of the 20th century in terms of the number of victims and cannibalism, which was not in Russia
          1. Alexander Greene
            Alexander Greene 26 November 2019 20: 46
            -2
            Quote: Olgovich
            So take this period, liar and prove it.

            Oh, what a liar you are - everyone knows, bulbit without any evidence
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 27 November 2019 09: 46
              -2
              Quote: Alexander Green
              Quote: Olgovich
              So take this period, liar and prove it.

              Oh, what a liar you are - everyone knows, bulbit without any evidence

              It is YOU who declared terrible famines with millions of victims in Russia before the Thief.

              Those. rude and oak lied.
              1. Alexander Greene
                Alexander Greene 27 November 2019 11: 38
                0
                Quote: Olgovich
                It is YOU who declared terrible famines with millions of victims in Russia before the Thief

                Witnesses of those years, tsarist officials who participated in commissions to help the starving, write about this, and my grandmothers in those days lived as they were starving, I drive from their stories.
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 27 November 2019 12: 44
                  -3
                  Quote: Alexander Green
                  Witnesses of those years, tsarist officials who participated in commissions to help the starving, write about this, and my grandmothers in those days lived as they were starving, I drive from their stories.

                  FOR THE CENTURY I propose: don't chat, and finally, give the reports of the tsarist officials on the famine: place, time. how many millions died from everyone, how many cannibals, mutilated, refugees, etc.

                  Take the empty DIGITAL SERVICE, liar.
                  1. Alexander Greene
                    Alexander Greene 27 November 2019 20: 55
                    0
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    Take the empty DIGITAL SERVICE, liar.

                    Oh, how you talked. Yes, now everything can be denied, because the people who survived all this died out, the tsarist archives do not testify to this, because the government at that time hid the scale of the famine, and you know this very well, and therefore speculate with your imaginary pedantry.

                    Would you try to deny this when there were still living witnesses ... .. But we are still alive, those who remember their stories.

                    My cousin grandmother (born 1872) gave birth to 17 children before the revolution, because of the regular hungry years from 1892 to 1911, 14 children died.

                    My paternal grandmother (born 1879) talked about the famine of 1892, in which her younger brothers died, only two girls survived.

                    My mother talked about the famine in 1911, she was a small child, but she remembered how her mother took with her to beg for charity in the villages.

                    And in the press at this time, royal censorship forbade the use of the word “hunger”, replacing it with the word “underperformance.” Although according to historians in 1901-1912. about 8 million people died from hunger and its consequences.

                    So think about whom I believe more: you - the slanderer or honest historians.
                    1. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 28 November 2019 10: 16
                      -3
                      Quote: Alexander Green
                      Oh, how you talked. Yes, now everything can be denied, because the people who survived all this died out, the tsarist archives do not testify to this, because the government at that time hid the scale of the famine, and you know this very well, and therefore speculate with your imaginary pedantry.

                      Would you try to deny this when there were still living witnesses ... .. But we are still alive, those who remember their stories.

                      My cousin grandmother (born 1872) gave birth to 17 children before the revolution, because of the regular hungry years from 1892 to 1911, 14 children died.

                      My paternal grandmother (born 1879) talked about the famine of 1892, in which her younger brothers died, only two girls survived.

                      My mother talked about the famine in 1911, she was a small child, but she remembered how her mother took with her to beg for charity in the villages.

                      And in the press at this time, royal censorship forbade the use of the word “hunger”, replacing it with the word “underperformance.” Although according to historians in 1901-1912. about 8 million people died from hunger and its consequences.

                      So think about whom I believe more: you - the slanderer or honest historians.

                      FOR THE FOURTH TIME I propose not to litter, but to prove my FALSE about MILLIONS of people who died from hunger, mass cannibalism in the Republic of Ingushetia before the Thief.

                      You can not? No

                      We state: You are a liar. Fi ... negative
                      1. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 28 November 2019 11: 10
                        -1
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        We state: You are a liar. Fi

                        Chamber No. 6 really cries for you, A. Suvorov is right when you greet you as a patient, you with manic persistence dismiss all explanations.

                        Well, how much can you repeat for stupid slanderers that the tsarist government hid these facts and did not keep statistics, there is only evidence of eyewitnesses, which are plentiful. I just have no time to look for them in order to satisfy your zabubo, which you are trying to give out objectivity.

                        My grandmothers were illiterate, so they didn’t leave any notes after themselves, but their memories are not rubbish, you litter and crap.
                      2. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 28 November 2019 11: 30
                        -3
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        Chamber No. 6 really cries for you, A. Suvorov is right when you greet you as a patient, you with manic persistence dismiss all explanations.

                        Well, as much as you can for stupid slanderers to repeat that the tsarist government hid these facts and did not keep statistics, there is only evidence of eyewitnesses, which are numerous. I just have no time to look for them in order to satisfy your zabubo, which you are trying to give out objectivity.

                        My grandmothers were illiterate, so they didn’t leave any notes after themselves, but their memories are not rubbish, you litter and crap.

                        You are a liar.
                        For they could not confirm their "statements" with ANYTHING.


                        PS It is understandable, no one could, because there were NOT these famines in Russia, with millions of victims and mass cannibalism, as with you in PEACE TIME
                      3. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 28 November 2019 19: 08
                        0
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        You are a liar.
                        For they could not confirm their "statements" with ANYTHING.


                        Do not believe me, your business, but there is other evidence.

                        For example, there is a book: 1906 - 1907. HUNGER IN RUSSIA. Travel N.E. Belyavskaya "for hunger"
                        Winter 1906 years

                        FIRST TRIP N. Belyavskaya "ON HUNGER"
                        The neighboring Tatar villages are already starving nearby: Varangushi and one more. Scarlet fever began in the village of Chepchugah. And here everything comes to the sick. A terrible impression: you will enter the hut - legs stick out: - surely someone is lying near the door on the stove. They lie on benches on the floor. Sometimes they sit a little recovering, hanging his head; hands like whips, blank faces, all coughing, complaining of chest pain. Often made deaf by tinnitus and a heavy head. In one family there are 3 patients, and only two children are healthy: a girl of 12 years old and a boy of 10 years old. And a girl with a sad face of an adult man drowns the stove herself, walks after the sick, feeds, walks to us for milk. They die almost every day.

                        There are many such testimonies, but Senya does not have time to look for them in order to satisfy your Zabubon, which you pass off as pedantry. Look for yourself.
                        .
                      4. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 29 November 2019 09: 49
                        -3
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        You are a liar.
                        For they could not confirm their "statements" with ANYTHING.


                        Do not believe me, your business, but there is other evidence.

                        For example, there is a book: 1906 - 1907. HUNGER IN RUSSIA. Travel N.E. Belyavskaya "for hunger"
                        Winter 1906 years

                        FIRST TRIP N. Belyavskaya "ON HUNGER"
                        The neighboring Tatar villages are already starving nearby: Varangushi and one more. Scarlet fever began in the village of Chepchugah. And here everything comes to the sick. A terrible impression: you will enter the hut - legs stick out: - surely someone is lying near the door on the stove. They lie on benches on the floor. Sometimes they sit a little recovering, hanging his head; hands like whips, blank faces, all coughing, complaining of chest pain. Often made deaf by tinnitus and a heavy head. In one family there are 3 patients, and only two children are healthy: a girl of 12 years old and a boy of 10 years old. And a girl with a sad face of an adult man drowns the stove herself, walks after the sick, feeds, walks to us for milk. They die almost every day.

                        There are many such testimonies, but Senya does not have time to look for them in order to satisfy your Zabubon, which you pass off as pedantry. Look for yourself.
                        .

                        Stop chatting, submit DOCUMENTS about MILLIONS of starvation, their burial, PROMISED by you, a liar!

                        SOVIET propagandists imagine! What, dumb? Even they were ashamed to carry this BAD!
                      5. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 29 November 2019 19: 04
                        0
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Stop chatting, submit DOCUMENTS about MILLIONS of starvation, their burial, PROMISED by you, a liar!

                        Firstly, I did not promise you anything. Secondly, stop hysteria, and make a pedant out of yourself, it’s better to watch your lies,
                        I told you everything, I am a witness to the stories of my relatives, try to refute them,. and if you do not accept these certificates - these are your problems, with such jumps you will have a place in ward No. 6.
                      6. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 30 November 2019 09: 54
                        -5
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        Firstly, I did not promise you anything. Secondly, stop hysteria, and make a pedant out of yourself, it’s better to watch your lies,

                        Liar (see above YOUR links to the "reports" of the royal ranks)
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        I told you everything, I am a witness to the stories of my relatives, try to refute them,. and if you do not accept these certificates - these are your problems, with such jumps you will have a place in ward No. 6.

                        Spit on the tales of a liar.
                      7. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 30 November 2019 12: 49
                        +1
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Liar (see above YOUR links to the "reports" of the royal ranks)
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        I told you everything, I am a witness to the stories of my relatives, try to refute them,. and if you do not accept these certificates - these are your problems, with such jumps you will have a place in ward No. 6.

                        Spit on the tales of a liar.

                        But to refute something, weakly, oh ...
                      8. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 30 November 2019 13: 28
                        -5
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        But to refute something, weakly-oh-oh ..

                        What to refute?

                        You didn’t provide anything, NI of one digit. Not a single document.
                      9. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 30 November 2019 15: 27
                        +2
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        You didn’t provide anything, NI of one digit. Not a single document

                        I brought you evidence with numbers, refute.
                      10. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 1 December 2019 09: 10
                        -5
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        I brought you evidence with numbers, refute.

                        Not a single figure, Not a single document on the mass millionth mortality.
                        Liar
                      11. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 1 December 2019 12: 15
                        +1
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        I brought you evidence with numbers, refute.

                        Not a single figure, Not a single document on the mass millionth mortality.
                        Liar

                        Eyewitness accounts - refute!
                      12. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 1 December 2019 12: 37
                        -5
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        Eyewitness accounts - refute!

                        OBS ?!

                        WHERE are the promised reports from tsarist officials about the millions who died of starvation. liar?

                        Tired ... Fi negative
    3. Walking
      Walking 23 November 2019 13: 44
      -1
      Quote: The same Lech

      So many Russian men lost in her ... damn this war.

      Oh, like you, Alexei, the boulder crunches have blown away.
      1. Dalton
        Dalton 23 November 2019 14: 07
        +3
        Prefer to rotate loaves or creak sand wink
        1. Brutan
          Brutan 23 November 2019 16: 05
          +7
          bun crumbs

          Chic terminology, I never cease to admire. Would still patent)
    4. george.prokudin
      george.prokudin 9 February 2020 09: 22
      0
      During the battles of 14-15 years. the Russian imperial army suffered irreparable losses. The guards and cadre officers of the army were almost completely knocked out. And although in the 16th year the situation with artillery and ammunition improved significantly, but the mood in the army was already significantly different from the original. The younger officers from raznochintsy after short-term Officer courses were significantly inferior in quality to 1914-15 staff officers. Before the war alone, in St. Petersburg and its environs there were more than 60 thousand soldiers and officers of the guard regiments devoted to the emperor, but they were killed in the course of heavy fighting in which they threw the guard. And at the end of 16- On the beginning of the 17th year, the guards regiments recruited from the reserve were already purely nominal and were no different from other spare parts. And when the turmoil began in St. Petersburg, the emperor had no one to lean on. Nobody wanted to go to the front, it was better to hold a meeting on the streets and squares. For comparison: 1812. Borodino. Napoleonic marshals beg their emperor: sire, give us the guard and we will break through the defenses of the Russians. He answered, maybe you will break through, or maybe not. But I stay here with you without my guard for thousands of leagues from Paris! So: it was the guard that helped him carry his legs from Russia and stood with him until the end, was destroyed near Waterloo.
  2. Albatroz
    Albatroz 23 November 2019 08: 34
    +7
    The Gorlitsky strategic operation ended with a difficult ending, but not catastrophic.
    RIA worthily opposed the enemy and loomed on the horizon the Entente Victory in the war of attrition.
    Which Russia brought as far as she could, crumpling the war to destroy Germany and Austria-Hungary
    1. Hunghuz
      Hunghuz 23 November 2019 09: 05
      +7
      That's for sure!
    2. Olgovich
      Olgovich 23 November 2019 10: 45
      +1
      Quote: Albatroz
      The Gorlitsky strategic operation ended with a difficult ending, but not catastrophic.

      One of the main achievements, in my opinion, is that the command managed to avoid terrible military disasters, such as Vyazma, Kiev, Uman, Kharkov in WWII.
      Accordingly, there were no wild instantaneous losses and lightning-fast throws of the enemy for tens of kilometers in open rear
      1. Alexander Greene
        Alexander Greene 23 November 2019 15: 47
        -7
        Quote: Olgovich
        One of the main achievements, in my opinion, is that the command managed to avoid terrible military disasters, such as Vyazma, Kiev, Uman, Kharkov in WWII.
        Accordingly, there were no wild instantaneous losses and lightning-fast throws of the enemy for tens of kilometers in open rear


        Firstly, you forgot such a disaster at the beginning of the war that happened with Samsonov’s army.

        Secondly, how do you imagine the lightning throws of the Germans? - On carts, or what?
        The First World War was a positional one, because there were no tanks and armored personnel carriers that could move quickly, machine guns appeared against the cavalry. The Second World War and in particular the Great Patriotic War were maneuvering wars, because a new kind of troops appeared - tank armies.

        It is foolish to compare the incomparable
        1. Albatroz
          Albatroz 23 November 2019 15: 55
          +5
          Again Green laughing
          forgot such a catastrophe at the beginning of the war

          Enough local disaster, which did not mean ANYTHING. Unlike Vyazma, Kiev or Kharkov, 41-42 years. Moreover, after it, the North-Western Front again drove the Germans, capturing half of East Prussia.
          how do you imagine the lightning throws of the Germans? - On carts, or what?

          Yes, you know, dear, the parties did well with the technique that they had.
          Nothing prevented the Germans from conducting such throws in France and Belgium in the summer of 14 years or in the Baltic states in the spring of 1915. Railway, horse-drawn vehicles and such a wonderful tool as cavalry.
          It solved strategic tasks in the summer of autumn 1914 on the Western Front and in 1914 - 15 years. in the East.
          World War I was a positional

          Lie.
          WWII was MANEUVERED on the Western Front in August - November 1914 and in March - November 1918.
          and on the Eastern Front - in the summer of 1914 - in the autumn of 1915, and even then intermittently.
          machine guns appeared against the cavalry

          which cavalry valiantly took during horse attacks laughing
          if it is of course correctly applied.
          1. Alexander Greene
            Alexander Greene 23 November 2019 16: 06
            -8
            Quote: Albatroz
            Again Green

            I see it hurts you, but I'm sorry. that's what I am ...
            Quote: Albatroz
            World War I was a positional

            Lie.

            Quote: Albatroz
            if it is of course correctly applied.

            It feels like you're the same strategist as Olgievich. Two of a Kind..
            1. Albatroz
              Albatroz 23 November 2019 16: 11
              +5
              From your opus, I see that you essentially have nothing to object to green
              Q.E.D. You are our multichannel laughing
              Or what, argue with me about the frequency of positional and maneuverable war on different fronts?
              What not to give out pearls
              World War I was a positional

              Exactly and categorically wink
              Teach materiel buddy
              1. Alexander Greene
                Alexander Greene 23 November 2019 23: 30
                -5
                Quote: Albatroz
                you have essentially nothing to object

                And what can be objected to your children's comments.

                Quote: Albatroz
                World War I was a positional

                Exactly and categorically
                Teach materiel buddy


                Thanks for the advice, but it would also be nice for you to deepen your knowledge.

                First, the I hope that you will not argue against the definition of a positional war, that it is a war with a predominance of military operations on continuous stable fronts of great length.

                You will not argue with the fact that the transition to a positional war is due to the inability of both sides to carry out breakthroughs of the opponent’s defense or develop tactical breakthroughs into operational ones, since a balance of forces is established with the same level of development of weapons and military equipment.

                Secondly, I hope you will not deny that after the stabilization of the front in the fall of 1914, hostilities degenerated into a merciless and senseless massacre, when for every meter of advance you had to pay thousands of lives - all attempts to go on the offensive were choked in blood and dirt, attacking chains mowed machine guns and hurricane artillery fire, so the troops buried themselves in the ground.

                Therefore, all military experts agree that the First World War was a positional, trench warfare. The aim of the war in this way was: the depletion of the resources of the warring parties.
                1. Albatroz
                  Albatroz 24 November 2019 08: 13
                  +4
                  I can object only to those who are in the subject of green. You do not belong to those.
                  Therefore, what else can I talk about since you don’t even understand what you are talking about?)
                  I hope that you will not argue against the definition of a positional war, that it is a war with a predominance of military operations on continuous stable fronts of great length.

                  Of course I will.
                  Because the stages of positional war alternated with maneuverability. I repeat. WWII was MANEUVERED on the Western Front in August - November 1914 and in March - November 1918.
                  That is, in the first and last stages. The most important.
                  Yes, and generally respected, after a breakthrough in positional defense, positional warfare tends to turn into maneuverability (this is me future conflicts after WWII).
                  On the Russian Austro-German front, in general, most of the WWII combat operations were maneuverable or mixed. As Volpe notes, for example.
                  There was no positional war on the Caucasian front.
                  Only on the Italian front did it have an almost exclusively positional character (with the exception of the last stage).
                  I hope that you will not deny that after the front stabilized in the fall of 1914, hostilities degenerated into a merciless and senseless massacre, when for every meter of advance you had to pay thousands of lives - all attempts to go on the offensive were choked in blood and dirt, the attacking chains choked machine guns and hurricane artillery fire, so the troops buried themselves in the ground.

                  Of course I will.
                  This is a Hollywood vision, a vision of a green issue. For firstly,
                  after the stabilization of the front in the fall of 1914
                  concerns only the Western Front, secondly, I explained above that in 1918 the war (even on this front) regains maneuverable forms (a beacon for the designers of the future, World War II), and thirdly - what is this nonsense? You yourself wrote that this is an important element of the war of attrition. Which brought the Entente victory. So that their great-grandchildren live in prosperity.
                  Therefore, all military experts agree that the First World War was a positional, trench warfare.

                  Shameless amateur lie. Military experts agree on what I quoted above.
                  That the phases of maneuvering / positional warfare for the main fronts alternated. What: a) on the Russian front, the war was positionally / maneuverable, and that b) on the French front, a chronologically large part of the confrontation took place in positional forms, but the first and last campaigns were maneuverable.
                  the transition to a positional war is explained by the inability of both sides to carry out breakthroughs of the opponent’s defense or develop tactical breakthroughs into operational ones because a balance of forces is established with the same level of development of weapons and military equipment.
                  It was then, in 1918, that balance was overcome, which allowed the parties to switch to large-scale maneuvering actions.
                  Teach materiel buddy
                  1. Alexander Greene
                    Alexander Greene 24 November 2019 10: 46
                    -6
                    Quote: Albatroz
                    Of course I will.
                    Because the stages of positional war alternated with maneuverability.

                    You argue not with me but with academics.
                    BES - POSITIONAL WAR - war with the predominance of hostilities on continuous stable fronts of great length.

                    Of course, the war does not begin with sitting in positions, but with an attack when the troops are in motion. In a military collision, if at some point comes the soar of forces, it turns into a positional one. And if most of the time it is in the so-called positional deadlock, which is very difficult to overcome, then it is called positional.
                    The main fronts of World War I were considered Western and Eastern, where most of the time of the war was held positionally.
                    1. The comment was deleted.
                    2. Albatroz
                      Albatroz 24 November 2019 10: 51
                      +4
                      Academicians ??
                      I argue so far only with the talker green, who cuts everything under one comb.
                      Not seeing the patterns indicated by me above. And traditionally, their understanding of the question reduces to the essence of the question.
                      I explained everything above.
                      Do not disgrace. Here sophisms and tricks will not help, here you are not the Horde yoke, and military experts and scientists have long put all the points over I.
                      1. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 24 November 2019 21: 27
                        -6
                        Quote: Albatroz
                        I argue so far only with the talker green,

                        Is the Great Soviet Encyclopedia of the second edition and the modern Great Encyclopedic Dictionary not your authority for you? All that I wrote, I checked with these sources.
                      2. Albatroz
                        Albatroz 24 November 2019 21: 35
                        +4
                        This is even funny)
                        Well, firstly, general dictionaries are of little value in highly professional matters.
                        And secondly, you are trying to pull an owl on a globe. I.e. I explain.
                        Subtracting there (only) the definition
                        POSITIONAL WAR - a war with a predominance of military operations on continuous stable fronts of great length.
                        philosophizing with an abstruse look.
                        Yes, the definition is theoretically true. And no one argues with him.
                        But in relation to the WWII, there was no positional war on any front other than the Italian one. On the periodicity of the stages of positional and maneuver warfare on the French and Russian fronts - see my comment above.
                      3. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 24 November 2019 22: 17
                        -5
                        Quote: Albatroz
                        Yes, the definition is theoretically true. And no one argues with him.

                        Don’t argue, articles in encyclopedias and dictionaries are ordered by specialists, including the military. Besides. in science, including military science, the definitions of events are given on the dominant basis, and since most of the armed confrontation on the Western Front (November 1914 - November 1918) and on the Eastern Front (autumn 1915 - January 1918) took place it is in the form of positional war, it is fair to say that the first world won was positional. So many authors call it, so search the Internet.
                      4. Albatroz
                        Albatroz 24 November 2019 22: 40
                        +4
                        Do not you understand?
                        You give me only a theoretical definition of positional warfare. In theory, yes, it is true. But the trouble is different - you do not know how to apply this definition to WWI.
                        And apart from the definition you don’t know anything.
                        I quote
                        most of the armed confrontation on the Western Front (November 1914 - November 1918) took place precisely in the form of positional warfare

                        Lying.
                        The large German offensive in March 18 led to the transition of positional warfare into a maneuvering phase. And the subsequent actions of the Allies in the summer and fall of that year are of the same maneuverable nature. That is, a maneuver war - in August - November 14 and March - November 18 years. In the most critical period. In the middle - only the exhaustion and accumulation of strength.
                        and on the Eastern Front (autumn 1915-January 1918) took place precisely in the form of a positional war

                        Periodically, it also entered a maneuvering phase, and Soviet military theorists (for example, Volpe) even call it positional / maneuver warfare. Highlighting the ABSENCE of purely positional forms.
                        The most important stages of the WWII took place in maneuvering phases, and this is why we cannot call the entire war positional.
                        so browse the internet

                        I understand that this is how you draw your "knowledge". Rummage on the Internet, at best, look at encyclopedias and cite Wikipedia. What else can a multi-stationer do?
                        I will not appeal to you to read serious literature on the topic - it is not for people like you, well, besides, someone is working, but someone is parasitizing green.
                        World War I was positional

                        The answer is no. She was combined. Teach materiel friend. If you want - in the dictionaries, but only a little more serious than I know the world or the British Encyclopedia. Joke)
                      5. Albatroz
                        Albatroz 24 November 2019 22: 45
                        +5
                        Novitsky, Galaktionov, Bazarevsky, Isserson, Bartholomew, Stenger, Bose and others write about the maneuvering phase in March - November 1918 in France and Belgium. GREEN SPECIALISTS.
                        called by many authors, so search the Internet

                        current rubbish, "authors" of the modern Internet such as you green on the same board with the above-mentioned luminaries is simply ridiculous hi
                      6. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 25 November 2019 00: 10
                        -6
                        Quote: Albatroz
                        current rubbish, "authors" of the modern Internet such as you green on the same board with the above-mentioned luminaries is simply ridiculous


                        First of all. No one denies moments of maneuver warfare. But the fact is that all the warring parties were bogged down for a long period in a positional war, i.e. the war very quickly turned from a maneuverable “war of armies” into a positional “war of resources”, and in this period, with the exit of the war of Russia and the depletion of German reserves, the war ended.

                        The last breakthrough offensive of the German troops did not lead to an operational victory, and did not solve any tasks, neither strategic nor even tactical, so this attack cannot be considered a sign of a maneuver war. Therefore, the victory of the Entente was obtained not as a result of a maneuver war, but precisely a positional one.

                        Second. Yes, I watch the Internet, if you want, admit - if you want, no, but this link gives, for example, a complete classification of wars.

                        http://www.warconflict.ru/rus/statistika/?action=shwprd&id=793

                        "Trench warfare. The war is fought on positional fronts, with low results of offensive operations, with the exhaustion of the parties. Positional war arose thanks to new forms of struggle and the development of military equipment in the second half of the XNUMXth century. A classic example of positional struggle - World War I, almost throughout its entirety. ”

                        All of the authors listed by you, the authors mainly consider specific operations in specific phases of warfare in order to study victories and defeats, but they do not make historical generalizations, Historical. assessment of wars and scientific generalizations are made by scientists and historians.
                      7. Albatroz
                        Albatroz 25 November 2019 06: 42
                        +3
                        With your verbose amateurish discourse on green, you only recognize impotence in the matter. sorry for directness)
                        No one denies moments of maneuver warfare.

                        These are not moments, but as I noted above, but the most important periods of the war - and they passed at its maneuverable stage.
                        The last breakthrough offensive of the German troops did not lead to an operational victory, and did not solve any tasks, neither strategic nor even tactical, so this attack cannot be considered a sign of a maneuver war. Therefore, the victory of the Entente was obtained not as a result of a maneuver war, but precisely a positional one.

                        Kindergarten) What is this not an operational and tactical victory? If
                        The operation was successful, leading to the heavy defeat of several Entente armies and the solution of operational tasks. The tactical success of the Germans was also significant. They advanced to Amiens and Paris for 60 - 80 km, capturing an area of ​​almost 3,5 thousand square meters. km 90000 prisoners and 1300 guns were captured, and 10 English divisions disappeared from the theater of war, appearing on it only in the fall.

                        Only strategic success was not achieved.
                        Before you argue, understand the categories of tactics, operational art and strategy.
                        You traditionally dump eggs and hens in one pile. What does the Entente victory have to do with it? It was achieved due to many factors.
                        I am about the FORM of military operations, which in the 1918 campaign were of a pronounced maneuverability.
                        I do not care about your Internet classifications, the same amateurs as you.
                        All of the authors listed by you, mainly consider specific operations in specific phases of warfare with the aim of studying victories and defeats, but they do not make historical generalizations,

                        Kindergarten laughing
                        You cannot know this and have just demonstrated it fully) For they did not see these works in person. Otherwise, they would have known that these authors are considering the campaign of 1918 in France, making appropriate generalizations.
                        Historical. assessment of wars and scientific generalizations are made by scientists and historians.

                        exactly. Not greens. And the historical assessment is as follows - the PMW cannot be called positional, it was of a mixed character, in which the phases of maneuvering war were replaced by positional.
                      8. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 25 November 2019 14: 46
                        -5
                        Quote: Albatroz
                        Historical. assessment of wars and scientific generalizations are made by scientists and historians.

                        exactly. Not greens.

                        And I just repeated this assessment, but you are fixated on individual campaigns, and "you don't see the forest for the trees ", you are not able to reach a higher level of generalizations, you do not have enough breadth of thinking. If you are a specialist in military affairs, then it is too narrow for this. About such Kuzma Prutkov said that "The specialist is like a gumboil."

                        To understand the assessment that I voiced, you need to familiarize yourself with the laws and categories of dialectics, at least with such as single, special, general. You do not understand the connection categories of content and form with categories of whole and part, don't understand what parts of the whole may differ qualitatively from the whole. So kindergarten is your level.
                      9. Albatroz
                        Albatroz 25 November 2019 17: 10
                        +4
                        And again NOTHING essentially. The owner of broad thinking) One thinking with zero knowledge))
                        You won’t be able to get out of thinking, here you’re not the goat of bars laughing
                        I repeat.
                        stages of positional war alternated with maneuverability.
                        WWII was MANEUVERED on the Western Front in August - November 1914 and in March - November 1918.
                        That is, in the first and last stages. The most important.
                        On the Russian Austro-German Front, most of the WWII combat operations were maneuverable or mixed. As Volpe notes, for example.
                        There was no positional war on the Caucasian front.
                        Only on the Italian front did it have an almost exclusively positional character (with the exception of the last stage).

                        Maybe you’ll understand at least 25 times) Just the same people make such conclusions, analyzing the general, identifying the importance of certain PMA campaigns. "Mixed" character means that the war was not purely positional or only mobile.
                        However, I am glad my green friend that you confirm the main thing - the forms of military operations were cyclical in nature, maneuver warfare replaced the positional one. And vice versa.
                        The only thing I understand is that you green denied that in the 1918 campaign on the Western Front of the WWII, hostilities again took on a maneuverable form.?
                        Did I understand you correctly?
                        Do you deny this fact?
                      10. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 25 November 2019 22: 41
                        -6
                        Quote: Albatroz
                        The only thing I understand is that you green denied that in the 1918 campaign on the Western Front of the WWII, hostilities again took on a maneuverable form.?
                        Did I understand you correctly?

                        You understood almost everything correctly.

                        Calling the end of the WWII period a maneuvering war is incorrect, because a German frontal strike on a wide sector of the front is not a maneuvering war.

                        Maneuver warfare implies that, in the absence of a long, continuous front line, using maneuver to bypass the enemy from the flanks, strike him in the rear in order to cut off part of the enemy troops from the main forces and: either defeat them or force them to surrender. The strike is carried out using large masses of mobile troops.

                        But there was none of this, the Germans, with the help of assault battalions, dealt a powerful straightforward blow, broke through the defense, but ... Very soon, the Entente troops launched a counterattack on all fronts and also began to linearly force out German troops from the occupied territory of France and Belgium, which also cannot be called maneuverability.

                        Yes, at the beginning of the war there was a maneuvering phase, but it was very short-lived compared to the entire period of the war. The Western Front had already stabilized by November 15, 1914, and the Eastern Front a little later. All of Europe was cut by fronts with defense in depth, which was almost impossible to break through.

                        So they stood most of the time of the entire WWI, not without reason E.M. Remarque called his novel “On the Western Front without Change. So with full right PMV can be called positional.
                      11. Albatroz
                        Albatroz 26 November 2019 07: 36
                        +4
                        Your amateurish considerations do not bother me much.
                        As well as a distorted-child view of the database of that era.
                        I repeat the question:
                        You green denied that in the 1918 campaign on the Western Front of the WWII, hostilities again took on a maneuverable form.?
                        Did I understand you correctly?
                        Do you deny this fact?
                      12. Albatroz
                        Albatroz 26 November 2019 07: 42
                        +4
                        I understand correctly that you are claiming that the fighting on the Western Front in the period March - November 18, did not go into the maneuverable stage, according to you, and you confirm this opus with a reference to the Remarque "All Quiet on the Western Front"? lol
                      13. Albatroz
                        Albatroz 26 November 2019 11: 29
                        +3
                        I will not disgrace the green, citing the novel as a source lol
                        I will not cite formulations from the above-mentioned works of specialists who analyze the campaign of 18 years in Belgium and France and indicate that it again acquired a maneuverable character. The works that you have not seen in your eyes.
                        But ...
                        Mindful of the fact that training is education, I’ll take care of your education. But at the beginning of this educational process: tell me my green friend signs of maneuver warfare, maneuverable military operations. Based on the postulates of military art in the first quarter of the 20th century. Let's start with the theory)
                      14. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 26 November 2019 17: 07
                        -4
                        Quote: Albatroz
                        Mindful of the fact that training is education, I’ll take care of your education.

                        It's too late to teach me ... and who can you teach, if you can't even read the text yourself. I brought you Remarque's novel for a metaphor, because Remarque named his novel, borrowing the texts of telegrams that the command of the Western Front constantly sent to the German General Staff: "Quiet on the Western Front ...".

                        Your misfortune is in the inflexibility of thinking, you think in a straightforward way, like the football player Logofet from Spartak (he was such in the 60-70s), who was called the “geometry teacher” because he only moved in a straight line, without maneuvering, knocking everyone along the way.

                        Therefore, you yourself cannot analyze. To convince you, it is necessary that one of the authorities specifically writes - this is a positional war, or - this is a maneuver war.
                        For the rest, you understood me correctly: Yes, I believe that the final stage of the war was not maneuverable.
                      15. Albatroz
                        Albatroz 26 November 2019 17: 21
                        +2
                        Leave aside verbiage green)
                        It does not impress me
                        Your logic is miserable, and knowledge is zero.
                        Logic with zero knowledge looks especially funny.
                        Well, I’m proposing to you to establish for yourself (and without authority) whether actions on the Western Front in March - November 18 took maneuverable forms. Let us analyze the theory using concrete operations as an example.
                        And for starters, I suggested that you formulate the signs of maneuver warfare, maneuverable military operations of this era. Not in the form of an incoherent splash, but like this: first, second, third.
                        And I look forward to hearing the green)
                      16. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 26 November 2019 17: 32
                        -3
                        Quote: Albatroz
                        Your logic is miserable, and knowledge is zero.
                        Logic with zero knowledge looks especially funny.

                        Sorry, but we have a dialo, as in a joke about the ensign.

                        The ensign conducts classes with the privates, tells the device of the machine: "This is a butt, it is made of wood, and this fore-end - it's done from the same material " Seeing that one of the soldiers was distracted, the warrant officer asks him: "Private Green, what material is the forend made of ?. Green replies:" From wood. "Warrant officer:" The answer is incorrect - FROM THE SAME MATERIAL"
                      17. Albatroz
                        Albatroz 26 November 2019 17: 36
                        +2
                        Will you tell me the green signs of a maneuvering war green or will you get out of extraneous phrases?
                      18. Albatroz
                        Albatroz 26 November 2019 17: 22
                        +2
                        Learning is never too late)
                      19. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 26 November 2019 17: 44
                        -4
                        Quote: Albatroz
                        Learning is never too late)

                        To teach a scientist is only to spoil.
                        And about the signs of a maneuvering war, read in my comments, I have already brought them to you repeatedly, But you, like that ensign from a joke .....
                        We have different thinking, therefore, to argue further, I see no reason.
                      20. Albatroz
                        Albatroz 26 November 2019 17: 56
                        +2
                        Are you a scientist))? Only really))
                        An ignoramus like you can’t ruin anything))
                        And we don’t argue. I don’t see who I could argue with.
                        I suggested that you point out the signs of maneuver warfare in ITEMS to track their presence or absence in the 18 year campaign.
                        And you get off with stupid jokes. That's your business. Not surprised))
                      21. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 26 November 2019 18: 08
                        -3
                        Quote: Albatroz
                        And we don’t argue. I don’t see who I could argue with.

                        I also
                      22. Albatroz
                        Albatroz 26 November 2019 18: 43
                        +3
                        So you can’t name it?
                        What was required to prove. We don’t even know the theory, but there ...
                      23. Hunghuz
                        Hunghuz 26 November 2019 17: 48
                        +2
                        An impudent cynical ignoramus will call Albatross something for you, keep your pocket wider. Dumb, with.
                        Yes, and he needs him, this analysis of the campaign of 18 as a hare stop signal)
                        I noticed that he is also proud of the lack of specific knowledge, considering himself the "broadest" outlook. The opposite is true. So, slozolud)
                      24. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 26 November 2019 18: 05
                        -4
                        Quote: Hunghouse
                        An impudent cynical ignoramus will call Albatross something for you, keep your pocket wider. Dumb, with.

                        And here the hunveibins published their da za bao.
                      25. Albatroz
                        Albatroz 26 November 2019 18: 44
                        +2
                        True, she pricks, it's a green man)
                      26. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 27 November 2019 20: 58
                        -1
                        Quote: Albatroz
                        True, she pricks, it's a green man)

                        While you are only rude.
                      27. Adjutant
                        Adjutant 27 November 2019 21: 03
                        +1
                        And you only evade Alexander Green
                      28. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 27 November 2019 21: 15
                        -2
                        Quote: Adjutant
                        And you only evade Alexander Green

                        Nobody evades, I expressed my justified vision to you, you ignore it, but you have never refuted it. What else to argue about?
                      29. Adjutant
                        Adjutant 27 November 2019 21: 34
                        +1
                        I don’t ignore anything.
                        You guys were asked to answer point by point, and you are in the bushes
                      30. Adjutant
                        Adjutant 27 November 2019 21: 35
                        +1
                        You can’t even name the signs. And to dismantle them Alexander Green - even more so.
                      31. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 27 November 2019 21: 40
                        -2
                        Quote: Adjutant
                        I don’t ignore anything.

                        Ignore it, because you are not in a position to refute my justification, and I do not play role-playing games such as "exams".
                      32. Adjutant
                        Adjutant 27 November 2019 21: 43
                        +1
                        What other rationale?
                        They are not there ...
                        Name the signs of a mobile war, point by point. Then there will be a subject for conversation. We will see their presence in Operation Michael and in the Amiens operation.
                        So far I see one thing - you do not know anything, you are incompetent ...
                        Motivating a reluctance to call pride. But really - incompetence, no more Alexander Green
                      33. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 27 November 2019 22: 15
                        -2
                        Quote: Adjutant
                        What are the signs of maneuver warfare,


                        Three minutes ... you, straight, guard me ... But I already said everything, stop procrastinating this topic, nobody reads us anyway ...

                        You and Olgievich are so prolific that I don’t have time to answer for you, you obviously don’t work, you’re bored, you’re looking for fun, but I’m still working, I have little time, and because of you I don’t have time to read all the articles. And there, on another page, Olgievich crap, and you distract me ...
                      34. Adjutant
                        Adjutant 27 November 2019 22: 36
                        +3
                        Well, see
                        you can’t name ... Or you could, we would see that the campaign of 18 was maneuverable.
                        Therefore you cannot wink
                        type
          2. Brutan
            Brutan 23 November 2019 16: 06
            +7
            You are right Albatross.
            And operational mobility depends not only on means of transport, which some are unaware of
        2. Olgovich
          Olgovich 24 November 2019 11: 07
          -3
          Quote: Alexander Green
          Firstly, you forgot such a disaster at the beginning of the war that happened with Samsonov’s army.

          Do you compare 5 surrounded divisions with ... 40 divisions in the Kiev boiler, when 600 thousand people were captured ?!
          1. Alexander Greene
            Alexander Greene 26 November 2019 00: 04
            -5
            Quote: Olgovich
            when 600 thousand people were captured ?!

            Without exaggeration, you cannot - 600 thousand prisoners .. This is a disease

            In some questions, you build yourself up as a pedant and delve into the little things, and then take on faith, figures launched by someone, several times overstated, and do not even try to analyze them.

            For example, Krivosheev in his “Book of losses” indicates the number of troops before the operation - 627 thousand, irretrievable losses he considers 531 thousand. But this does not mean that they were all captured.

            At first, by the end of the operation, only in the front units, which did not get surrounded (38th and 40th armies, many front units, a significant part of the rear of the front, armies and others) there were 150 541 people.

            Second, the during the defense of Kiev there were fierce battles that lasted all September, in which the troops of the front suffered heavy losses, 54 wounded Krivosheev alone. We will approximately assume that there are as many killed as 54 thousand. Thus, 627 - (151 + 54 + 54) = 368 thousand were surrounded

            Thirdly, no less fierce battles took place and surrounded, часть died часть broke out of the ring of surroundings, часть switched to guerrilla action часть captured.

            As you can see, the circle is divided into 4 parts, of course not equal, therefore historians, for example, in the book “Kiev Red Banner” estimate the number of prisoners less than one third of those surrounded. And this 100-120 thousand.

            So what is your number 600 тыс. does not dance at all.
            1. Albatroz
              Albatroz 26 November 2019 09: 29
              +3
              Even here, my green friend is lying)
              You would have the will, so you would have surrounded the Germans in 41 near Kiev)
              There is a publication of the Ministry of Defense about losses in wars and military conflicts of the 20th century. Check it out.
              What 150 thousand there, you can sense.
              Yeah, military history in Green's way (that is, Shpakovsky-Samsonovsky) is an outrageous thing) They rejoice that there is no control - and write whatever you want)), to the best of your understanding, and to the extent of intentional distortion)
              1. Alexander Greene
                Alexander Greene 26 November 2019 16: 45
                -2
                Quote: Albatroz
                What 150 thousand there, you can sense.

                Do you know how to count, or just can repeat Goebbels speculations? Where am I wrong? Or you cannot open brackets?
                1. Albatroz
                  Albatroz 26 November 2019 17: 14
                  +2
                  What kind of Goebbels propaganda is this?
                  This is the official material of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation
                  Or is everything the same for you?))
                  1. Alexander Greene
                    Alexander Greene 26 November 2019 17: 18
                    -3
                    Quote: Albatroz
                    What kind of Goebbels propaganda is this?
                    This is the official material of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation
                    Or is everything the same for you?

                    And you don’t know, for the sake of whom they all do it?
                    1. Albatroz
                      Albatroz 26 November 2019 17: 26
                      +2
                      That is, you equate the data of our archives, the data of official statistics with Goebbels propaganda?)
                      What Goebbels propaganda is, of course, you know by hearsay (just look at your samso articles on VO). But he doesn’t have a claw about archives, because they saw them only on the Internet)
                      1. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 26 November 2019 18: 01
                        -3
                        Quote: Albatroz
                        But he doesn’t have a claw about archives, because they saw them only on the Internet


                        Well, do you believe Olga? Look what a gift he made to us - he published a bulletin of the Information Bureau of those times where Goebbels' lie is refuted.
                        I hope you noticed that the figure of my approximate calculations of those who were surrounded by 368 thousand almost coincided with the one that Olgievich brought in - 380 thousand.

                        Now try to refute my thesis, in the battles in the encirclement, part died, part escaped from the encirclement, part went on to partisan actions, part was captured.

                        So how many were captured? Already not 600 thousand. As stated Ogievich.
                        So you cluck.
                      2. Albatroz
                        Albatroz 26 November 2019 18: 42
                        +3
                        And what does Olegovich have to do with your homegrown theses?
                        Leave it all to yourself or to the victims of Goebbels propaganda)
                        Open the edition indicated by me
                        Everything is laid out there for operations
                      3. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 26 November 2019 20: 25
                        0
                        Quote: Albatroz
                        Open the edition indicated by me
                        Everything is laid out there for operations

                        He opened, well, where there are 600 thousand prisoners
                      4. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 26 November 2019 20: 50
                        -3
                        Quote: Albatroz
                        And what does Olegovich have to do with your homegrown theses?
                        Leave it all to yourself or to the victims of Goebbels propaganda)


                        The foreign press (mainly in Germany) shows the number of Soviet prisoners of war ... for the first period of the war (June 1941 - November 1942) ....
                        So, in the reports of the German High Command it was reported that in the boilers ...
                        in the Kiev region - 665 thousand

                        The figures are impressive, but not accurate enough, since the fascist leadership in the number of prisoners of war included not only military personnel, but also all members of the party and Soviet bodies, as well as men, regardless of age, who left with the retreating and surrounded troops.

                        As a result, the number of captured sometimes exceeds the number of armies and fronts that took part in a particular operation (battle). For example, the German command reported that 665 thousand Soviet soldiers and officers were taken prisoner east of Kiev. Meanwhile, the total number of troops of the South-Western Front at the beginning of the Kiev defensive operation was 627 thousand people. Of this number, more than 150 thousand acted outside the encirclement, and tens of thousands of servicemen left the encirclement with fighting.

                        In this regard, it is appropriate to refer to the statement of the English historian D. Fuller, who argued that it is impossible to trust the German communiqué about victories, because astronomical figures were often cited in them
                      5. Albatroz
                        Albatroz 26 November 2019 21: 07
                        +3
                        Well, now an evergreen connoisseur of wars on encyclopedias, do so.
                        From almost 600 thousand total losses, the sanitary 54 thousand are taken away (however, this was done without you).
                        So, in the column Irretrievable losses 531 thousand - just killed and missing (that is, mostly captured) are indicated. And half a million prisoners is a very impressive figure. Why is the Germans higher? Everything is very simple - they added captured prisoners of war age, draftees actually moving to the gathering places, civilian personnel, etc. to the column of prisoners of war. That is why newsreels in the crowds of Soviet prisoners of war also show people in civilian clothes.
                        Only the Vyazemsky cauldron was larger - more than 600 thousand prisoners.
                        And without such boilers as Kiev, Vyazemsky, Barvenkovsky, etc., well, the Germans could not scrape together 5 million Soviet prisoners of war in the Second World War. Remember this, green, when you cheat with numbers. Don't flirt
                      6. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 27 November 2019 00: 50
                        -4
                        Quote: Albatroz
                        Remember this, green, when you cheat with numbers. Don't flirt

                        Quote: Albatroz
                        Well, now an evergreen connoisseur of wars on encyclopedias, do so.
                        From almost 600 thousand total losses, sanitary 54 thousand are taken away (however, this was done without you)

                        Yeah, how everything turns out to be working for you, it turns out you don’t know how to read, count, nor think, and I compared you with a geometry teacher, and you have a place in the ABVGD-yak.

                        I copied the phrase for you at Krivosheev! Read it again!

                        "For example, the German command reported that it was taken prisoner east of Kiev 665 thousand. Soviet soldiers and officers. Meanwhile, the entire number of troops of the Southwestern Front at the beginning of the Kiev defensive operation was 627 тыс. people Of this number, more 150 thousand. acted outside the environment, and tens of thousands... servicemen left the encirclement with battles "

                        Is there really nothing moving up there?
                        Even if you do not take into account those who are surrounded (tens of thousands) and it doesn’t work out 531 thousand

                        Count 621 - 150 = 471 тыс.
                      7. Adjutant
                        Adjutant 27 November 2019 21: 15
                        +3
                        The exclusiveness of the Great Terror was the unprecedented and massive scale of the massacres organized by the governing bodies of the Communist Party in peacetime. The pre-war decade was a disaster for the population of the USSR. Between 1930 and 1940, more than 8,5 million people became victims of Stalin's social policy: more than 760 thousand were shot for "counter-revolutionary crimes", about a million dispossessed died at the stages of dispossession and in special settlements, about half a million prisoners died in the Gulag . Finally, 6,5 million people died as a result of the famine of 1933, which, according to the Russian State Duma, was the result of "forcible collectivization of agriculture."
                        The main victims were in the 1930s, 1931th, 1932th and 1933th years - about 7 million people. For comparison: the total number of deaths in the occupied territories of the USSR in 1941–1944 is estimated by demographic experts in the range of 4–4,5 million people. At the same time, the “Yezhovshchina” of 1937-1938 became a direct and inevitable consequence of collectivization.
                        According to the reference data of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the USSR in 1953, in 1937-1938, the NKVD bodies arrested 1 million 575 thousand 259 people, of whom 1 thousand 372 (382 percent) for "counter-revolutionary crimes". 87,1 people were convicted (including 1 people were shot).
                        Those sentenced to capital punishment were not only shot. For example, in the Vologda NKVD, performers - with the knowledge of the chief order bearer, major of state security Sergei Zhupakhin - were sentenced to death by prisoners who were condemned to be shot. Of the nearly two thousand executed in 1937-1938, about 600 people were strangled with ropes in the Kuybyshevsky UNKVD. In Barnaul, convicts were killed with crowbars. In Altai and the Novosibirsk Region, women were sexually assaulted before being shot. In the Novosibirsk NKVD prison, employees competed who would kill a prisoner with one blow in the groin.
                        In total, from the 1930s to the 1940s, more than 760 thousand people were convicted and executed for political reasons in the USSR (of which more than 680 thousand were killed during the war). For comparison: in the Russian Empire for 37 years (1875-1912) no more than six thousand people were executed on all convictions, including serious criminal offenses, as well as on the sentences of the military field and military district courts of the period of the first Russian revolution. In 1937-1939, the German People's Tribunal (Volksgericht), the Reich’s extraordinary judicial body for high treason, espionage and other political crimes, convicted 1709 people and sentenced 85 death sentences.
                        As a result of the October Revolution and the victory of the Bolsheviks in the civil war, a dictatorship of the Central Committee of the Communist Party arose in our country. The main task of Lenin, Stalin and their comrades-in-arms was to keep the captured power at all costs - its loss threatened not only political, but also personal risks to tens of thousands of Bolsheviks.
                        The bulk of the USSR population was peasants: according to the 1926 census, the share of the rural population exceeded 80 percent. During the well-fed years of NEP (1923-1925), the village became rich, and demand for industrial goods grew. But there were not enough manufactured goods on the Soviet market, since the Bolsheviks artificially limited private initiative, fearing the growth and influence of the "capitalist elements." As a result, prices for scarce manufactured goods began to rise, and peasants, in turn, began to raise selling prices for food. But the Bolsheviks did not want to buy bread at market prices. So there were crises of 1927-1928, during which the Communists returned to the practice of forced harvesting. With the help of tough measures, they managed, as Molotov said, to “pump up bread”, but the threat of mass unrest in the cities, due to supply problems, remained.
                        It became clear to Stalin that as long as a free and independent peasant producer remained on earth, he would always be a danger to the Communist Party. And in 1928, Stalin openly called the peasantry "a class that distinguishes from its midst, generates and nourishes the capitalists, kulaks and, in general, all kinds of exploiters." It was required to destroy the most hardworking part of the peasants, to expropriate their resources, and the rest to attach to the land as state disenfranchised farm laborers - to work for a nominal fee. Only such a collective farm system, despite its low profitability, allowed the party to retain power.
                        Collectivization was inevitable: Stalin and his comrades-in-arms explained its necessity by the interests of industrialization, but in fact they were primarily fighting for their political survival in a peasant country. The Bolsheviks dispossessed about one million peasant farms (5-6 million people), about four million people were deported and deported from their homes. The village fiercely resisted: according to the OGPU, in 1930, 13 mass peasant demonstrations (including 453 insurgents) and 176 armed uprisings took place in the USSR. Together, they were attended by almost 55 million people - three times more than in the White movement during the civil war.
                        Despite the fact that in 1930-1933 the authorities managed to break down the peasant resistance, the secret protest against the “happy collective farm life” persisted and posed a great danger. In addition, in 1935-1936, peasants convicted in the early 1930s began to return from places of detention and exile. And the main share of those executed during the New Year’s Day (approximately 60 percent) was made up of the peasants — collective farmers and individual farmers who were dispossessed, who were registered with the state security agencies. The primary goal of the "Black Sea" on the eve of the great war was to suppress protest against collectivization and the collective farm system.
                        Along the way, other "enemies of the people" were destroyed. For example, a complete disaster befell the Orthodox Russian Church. By 1917, there were 146 thousand Orthodox clergy and monks in Russia, almost 56 thousand parishes, more than 67 thousand churches and chapels were operating. In 1917-1939, out of 146 thousand clergymen and monks, the Bolsheviks destroyed more than 120 thousand, in the absolute majority - in the 1930s under Stalin, especially in 1937-1938. By the autumn of 1939, only 150 to 300 Orthodox parishes and no more than 350 churches remained operational in the USSR. The Bolsheviks - with the indifference of the vast majority of the Orthodox population by baptism - managed to almost completely destroy the largest local Orthodox Church in the world.
                      8. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 28 November 2019 01: 58
                        -4
                        Quote: Adjutant
                        Finally, 6,5 million people died as a result of the famine of 1933, which, according to the Russian State Duma, was the result of "forcible collectivization of agriculture."

                        Well, why so shamelessly lying? Even the Ukrainian Natsiks and those became more modest, they claimed 20 and 10 and 7 million, but now they agree on the figure of 3,5 million.

                        But what is interesting? Statistical data from ZAKS, which recorded the deaths of people, testify that during this time in Ukraine only 2,5 million died. Subtract from this figure the average statistical mortality for other years and get death from hunger. Although this is also accurate, because there was an epidemic of hunger.
                      9. Adjutant
                        Adjutant 28 November 2019 08: 36
                        +4
                        Only numbers and facts
                      10. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 27 November 2019 12: 38
                        -1
                        Quote: Alexander Green

                        Well, do you believe Olga? Look what a gift he made to us - he published a bulletin of the Information Bureau of those times where Goebbels' lie is refuted.
                        I hope you noticed that the figure of my approximate calculations of those who were surrounded by 368 thousand almost coincided with the one that Olgievich brought in - 380 thousand.

                        belay
                        1. This "lie" turned out to be much more truthful than the "truth" of the Information Bureau, as the same Krivosheev showed. ...
                        2. The battles had not yet ended at the time of the summary and the prisoners continued to arrive.
                      11. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 27 November 2019 21: 09
                        -2
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        This "lie" turned out to be much more truthful than the "truth" of the Information Bureau, as shown by the same Krivosheev.

                        Do not lie, Krivosheev did not show you anything, on the contrary, he noted a German lie. And as the Germans believe, we know that civilians are included there.
                      12. Adjutant
                        Adjutant 27 November 2019 21: 15
                        +2
                        Stalin's actions determined criminal inclinations, the desire to rule the Communist Party as a mafia organization in which all its leaders are tied with complicity in the killings; finally, the willingness to destroy not only genuine and imaginary enemies, but also members of their families. As the Chechen Abdurakhman Avtorkhanov wrote, who was part of the nomenclature of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks in 1937, “Stalin was a brilliant criminal offender from politics whose state crimes legitimized the state itself. From the amalgam of crime with politics, the only one born: Stalinism. ” In the Stalinist system, the perpetrators of mass crimes were doomed: the organizers eliminated them as unnecessary accomplices. Therefore, for example, not only the aforementioned major of state security Sergey Zhupakhin was shot, but also the general commissioner of state security Nikolay Yezhov.
                        However, one should not exaggerate the scale of repression among the KGB. Of the 25 thousand NKVD employees who worked in the state security system in March 1937, 1938 people were arrested for all crimes, including criminality and domestic corruption, until mid-August 2. In 273, 1939 employees were dismissed, of which only 7 security officers who served under Yezhov were arrested.
                        The country needed a respite after a two-year bloody nightmare - everyone, including the Chekists, was tired of Yezhovism. In the fall of 1938, the international situation changed. Hitler's ambitions could have sparked a war between Germany and the Western democracies, and Stalin wanted to make the most of this clash. Therefore, now all attention should be focused on international relations. "Beria liberalization" has come, but this does not mean that the Bolsheviks abandoned terror. In 1939-1940, 135 people were convicted for "counter-revolutionary crimes" in the USSR, including 695 - to be shot.
                        Since the end of 1917, the Bolsheviks have been waging a continuous social war in Russia. Enemies were declared by nobles, merchants, representatives of the clergy, Cossacks, former officers, members of other political parties, White Guards and white emigrants, then fists and elders, “bourgeois specialists”, wreckers, again clergy, members of opposition groups. Society was kept in constant tension. Mass propaganda campaigns allowed the mobilization of representatives of the social lower classes in punitive bodies, for whom the pursuit of imaginary, obvious and potential enemies opened up career opportunities.
                        Stalin and his subordinates destroyed hundreds of thousands of innocent people. Millions of people, given the family members of the repressed, they have broken destinies. In an atmosphere of terror, an incredible spiritual corruption of a multimillion people took place - lies, fear, duplicity, and opportunism. They killed not only human bodies, but also the souls of the survivors.
                        Scientific, economic, military personnel, cultural and art workers suffered heavy losses, huge human capital was destroyed - all this weakened society and the country. What measure, for example, can measure the consequences of the deaths of the commander Alexander Svechin, the scholar George Langemak, the poet Osip Mandelstam, the physicist Lev Shubnikov, the courageous Metropolitan Kirill (Smirnov)?
                        The Ezhovshchina did not suppress protest moods in society, it made them only more acute and spiteful. The Stalinist government itself multiplied the number of its opponents. In 1924, approximately 300 thousand potential “enemies” were registered with the state security agencies, and in March 1941 (after collectivization and nightmare) - more than 1,2 million. 3,5 million prisoners of war and approximately 200 thousand defectors in the summer and autumn of 1941, the cooperation of part of the population with the enemy during the war years is a natural result of collectivization, the collective farm system, the system of forced labor and nightly labor.
                        But at the same time, until 1953, Stalin remained a hostage to the Leninist "vertical" - the dictatorship of the Central Committee of the party. Stalin could manipulate congresses, destroy any party member, initiate personnel purges and rearrangements. But he could not ignore the joint interests of the party nomenclature, let alone get rid of it. Nomenclature has become a new elite.
                        “The revolution that was carried out in the name of the abolition of classes,” wrote Milovan Djilas, a member of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Yugoslavia, “led to the unlimited power of one new class. Everything else is disguise and illusion. ” In the winter of 1952-1953, the extravagant plans of Stalin, who conceived a new nightmare, caused legitimate concern for the leaders of the CPSU Central Committee: Beria, Khrushchev, Malenkov, Bulganin and others. I think this is what became the real cause of his death - most likely, Stalin fell a victim to his entourage. Whether they killed him by medication or did not provide him with medical attention on time - this is not so important.
                        Nevertheless, in the future, Stalin turned out to be a political bankrupt. Lenin created the Soviet state, Stalin gave it comprehensive forms, but this state did not exist even forty years after the death of Stalin. By historical standards, an insignificant period.
                      13. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 28 November 2019 02: 02
                        -1
                        Quote: Adjutant
                        Stalin’s actions determined criminal inclinations,

                        You invented this nonsense yourself, or copied from somewhere? Send the link.
                      14. Adjutant
                        Adjutant 28 November 2019 08: 39
                        +3
                        Why nonsense? The bitter facts ...
                        You write to the article about the operation of 15 years for some reason about Kiev for 41 years ...
                        Why not write about the Great Terror, without which our system could not live, and which has also become a mechanism for the rotation of personnel, in contrast to normal countries.
                        Why link when I eased your task and cited posts)
                      15. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 28 November 2019 10: 21
                        -3
                        Quote: Adjutant
                        You write to the article about the operation of 15 years for some reason about Kiev for 41 years ..

                        This is your rascal friend of yours started about Kiev, I just corrected.
                        And send a link, just wondering who else is so crap.
                        You cannot understand the main thing that you were at the same time with all the enemies of not only the USSR, but also of Russia, slandering the USSR, you continue to ruin Russia, everything that you write is used against it.
                      16. Hunghuz
                        Hunghuz 28 November 2019 10: 48
                        +1
                        Are you the enemy of Russia nick Green (about someone who delicately said nothing).
                        Because you stuff the Russians with a false brew. Waging an information war. Deny citizens the right to quality information.
                        And on whose mission - it would be worth sorting out. It is a pity in this regard that we do not live in Stalinist times, so beloved by you)
                      17. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 28 November 2019 11: 18
                        0
                        Quote: Hunghouse
                        Are you the enemy of Russia nick Green (about someone who delicately said nothing).
                        Because you stuff the Russians with a false brew. Waging an information war.

                        No "respected" Hongfeibing. it is you who are waging an information war with your Da dzy bao against the Soviet and now Russian people, using the "brew" of your Western masters.

                        By slandering the USSR, you are putting under attack Russia, which the West wants to destroy with your own hands just as it destroyed the USSR. If you do this consciously, then you are the real enemy of Russia, if by poor mind, then you and the oligievichs will have a place in ward No. 6, because only crazy people can destroy their home.
                      18. XII Legion
                        XII Legion 28 November 2019 16: 04
                        +1
                        No green
                        We will be objective. The vast majority of servicemen in the Kiev boiler did not die, but seemed to be in captivity. That is the tragedy of boilers.
                        Of course, you can dodge on the navel, be wise in terms of calculations, but you can’t rewrite history.
                        More than half a million military personnel following the results of the Kiev boiler in 1941 were in German captivity. Soviet, Germanic and Russian historiography on the topic has long been placed above and.
                        And modern Russia has long been a semi-colony of the West, and through the efforts of people like you, foreign agents and at the same time part-time, I have been singing along to the current regime (though for averting the eyes of nostalgic people in the USSR, such as you Yeltsinoids banged at one time).
                        To the greatest regret
                      19. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 28 November 2019 18: 50
                        0
                        Quote: XII Legion
                        We will be objective. The vast majority of soldiers in the Kiev boiler did not die,

                        So be the lenses. Not 600 thousand, but much less got into the boiler. And I do not rewrite History, I restore it, because from the submission of Khrushchev, both Soviet, German and Russian historiography distorted it.
                        So the foreign agent is you, because you are in the same cage with the slanderers.
                      20. XII Legion
                        XII Legion 29 November 2019 21: 09
                        +1
                        Well, not 600, but let's say 500 thousand. What is changing?
                        I talked about trends, not about roll-calls.
                        Foreign agent you are not because in the same clip with the slanderers (although this is also) wink
                      21. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 28 November 2019 10: 20
                        -4
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        Do not lie, Krivosheev did not show you anything, on the contrary, he noted a German lie. And as the Germans believe, we know that civilians are included there.

                        He showed a lie informer.

                        Summoned persons
                      22. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 28 November 2019 11: 22
                        0
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        He showed a lie informer.

                        Do you even understand what is written? In my opinion you are not adequate. Krivosheev showed the German lie, according to which more than there were troops on the South-Western Front.
                      23. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 28 November 2019 11: 38
                        -3
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        you are not adequate

                        Your most frequent argument.
                        Plus verbal trash.

                        I'm sick
                      24. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 28 November 2019 18: 40
                        +1
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Your most frequent argument.
                        Plus verbal trash.

                        I'm sick


                        Well, I can say that too, but I still hope that your autumn aggravation will pass, and you will read the words of Krivosheev, where he writes about the German lies, which you so memorized are repeating.
                        http://lib.ru/MEMUARY/1939-1945/KRIWOSHEEW/poteri.txt
                        "For example, the German command reported that it was taken prisoner east of Kiev 665 тыс. Soviet soldiers and officers. Meanwhile, the entire number of troops of the Southwestern Front at the beginning of the Kiev defensive operation was 627 тыс. people. "
            2. Olgovich
              Olgovich 26 November 2019 10: 44
              -4
              Quote: Alexander Green
              For example, Krivosheev in his "Book of Losses" indicates the number of troops before the start of the operation - 627 thousand, irretrievable losses he lists 531 thousand.


              The Germans did not know the paper calculations of Krivosheev .... request

              Sovinformburo. During September 25, our troops fought with the enemy on the entire front.

              Another fake of the Nazis about Soviet losses

              On September 24, fascist wastelands from the main command of the German army erupted in yet another regular fake. Now they are no longer satisfied with dozens of waved pen "destroyed" Soviet tanks and thousands of "captured" Red Army soldiers. The German public is so used to such nonsense that it can no longer be surprised at such a lie that is usual for fascists. Given this, the Nazis decided to lie more fun. To their own joy, they solemnly broadcast about the seizure of 570 Soviet tanks and 380 thousand prisoners in the Kiev region ...



              So the country found out the truth about the disaster.
              1. Alexander Greene
                Alexander Greene 26 November 2019 16: 53
                -1
                Quote: Olgovich
                The Germans did not know the paper calculations of Krivosheev ...

                And you blindly believe Goebbels propaganda. which, in order to destroy the morale of Soviet soldiers and residents in the occupied territories, lied unashamedly ?. So you even beat Goebbels, having overestimated his figures by 2 times.
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 27 November 2019 09: 40
                  -1
                  Quote: Alexander Green
                  And you blindly believe Goebbels propaganda. which, in order to destroy the morale of Soviet soldiers and residents in the occupied territories, lied unashamedly ?. So you even beat Goebbels, having overestimated his figures by 0 times.

                  1. You are shown who lied and who told the truth. Those who knew how to properly listen to the Sovinbomburo understood what happened near Kiev.

                  2. The Germans and Krivosheev differently consider the timing and boundaries of the Kiev operation, and therefore the contradictions. But even today the Germans confirm those numbers:
                  Als Stalin 1941 vom Vormarsch deutscher Panzer auf Kiew erfuhr, tat er dies als "Panikmache" ab. Gedanken an Rückzug bedrohte er mit der Todesstrafe. Am Ende verlor die Rote Armee 665.000 Gefangene
                  . di Welt 2016
                  1. Alexander Greene
                    Alexander Greene 27 November 2019 11: 26
                    0
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    But even today the Germans confirm those numbers:

                    What the Germans confirm, I have no doubt about it. They have been breaching since 41 years old. bad then. that we have divorced a lot of ruts from Urengoy, which are replicating this lie ..
                    1. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 27 November 2019 12: 21
                      -2
                      Quote: Alexander Green
                      What the Germans confirm, I have no doubt about it. They have been breaching since 41 years old. bad then. that we have divorced a lot of ruts from Urengoy, which are replicating this lie ..

                      Who brechet, showed a summary of the information bureau on September 25. And people understood it
                      1. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 27 November 2019 20: 05
                        -1
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Who brechet, showed a summary of the information bureau on September 25. And people understood it

                        Sovetsik people understood everything correctly, but you don’t
                      2. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 28 November 2019 10: 10
                        -1
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        Sovetsik people understood everything correctly, but you don’t

                        Of course, they understood: A catastrophe occurred near Kiev, which the authorities are awkwardly trying to hide from them.
                      3. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 28 November 2019 10: 29
                        -2
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        CATASTROPHE

                        Yes, a disaster, there was a rout of the South-Western Front, and if they had listened to the proposal of S.M. Budenny, it could have been avoided.

                        But that is not the point, but that you assent to the Germans, that more than 600 thousand were captured, slander the soldiers and commanders of the Southwestern Front, who heroically fought and most died in battle, and you credited them all prisoners. In your opinion, it turns out that they were surrounded and they surrendered to the whole front.
                      4. Hunghuz
                        Hunghuz 28 November 2019 10: 43
                        +2
                        Most just captured, but did not die in battle.
                        Stop pulling the owl on the Green Globe, it's not even funny anymore. Your lies are already in the liver.
                        Load granite of science, and you will be rewarded.
                      5. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 28 November 2019 11: 24
                        0
                        Quote: Hunghouse
                        Most just captured, but did not die in battle.

                        Reread my comment on the calculations and try to refute.
                      6. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 28 November 2019 11: 25
                        -2
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        But that is not the point, but that you assent to the Germans, that more than 600 thousand were captured, slander the soldiers and commanders of the Southwestern Front, who heroically fought and most died in battle, and you credited them all prisoners. In your opinion, it turns out that they were surrounded and they surrendered to the whole front.

                        Most of them were captured: because of the oak leadership, they lost the opportunity to fight.

                        And this catastrophe was ORDERED worse than Samsonov’s entourage, with which you are trying to compare clumsily.
                        You are slandering the story.
                      7. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 28 November 2019 19: 12
                        +1
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        You are slandering the story.

                        You slander the story, and you started not comparable (WWII and WWII), you too. I just reminded you that there were disasters in the WWII.
                      8. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 29 November 2019 09: 50
                        -4
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        You slander the story, and you started not comparable (WWII and WWII), you too. I just reminded you that there were disasters in the WWII.

                        Compared to WWII catastrophes (in casualties in people, territories), there were troubles in WWII.
                      9. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 29 November 2019 19: 09
                        +1
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Compared to WWII catastrophes (in casualties in people, territories), there were troubles in WWII.

                        First, each time has its own scale. Secondly, the scale of the "catastrophes" during the Great Patriotic War is greatly exaggerated, starting with your brother Khrushchev, the numbers grow exponentially every year ...
                      10. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 30 November 2019 09: 57
                        -5
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        First, each time has its own scale. Secondly, the scale of the "catastrophes" during the Great Patriotic War is greatly exaggerated, starting with your brother Khrushchev, the numbers grow exponentially every year ...

                        One time. WWII-continued WWII.
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        Secondly, the scale of "catastrophes" during the Great Patriotic War is greatly exaggerated.

                        Yeah, here are the 7 million victims of the Second World War is "true", yes. fool
                      11. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 30 November 2019 13: 16
                        +1
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        One time. WWII-continued WWII.


                        For those who did not study at a conspiracy school - this sounds convincing.
                        And we will deal with the number of victims, and even through the efforts of your brethren this figure has grown to 44 million.
                      12. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 30 November 2019 13: 30
                        -5
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        For those who didn’t attend a conspiracy school - it sounds convincing

                        for ALL literate people and scientists
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        And we’ll deal with the number of dead,

                        How many CENTURIES will you still wallow in your lies?
                      13. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 30 November 2019 15: 29
                        +1
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        How many CENTURIES will you still wallow in your lies?

                        This will happen sooner than you think, "take care of the budenovka".
                      14. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 1 December 2019 09: 12
                        -5
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        This will happen sooner than you think, "take care of the budenovka".

                        Take care of the comm. socks do not wash
  3. Dalton
    Dalton 23 November 2019 08: 44
    +3
    Heavy losses on the Russian front are a traditional phenomenon. Like its funnel-shaped extension for an advancing enemy
    1. Adjutant
      Adjutant 23 November 2019 09: 28
      +6
      Accordingly, more and more resources are required.
  4. Hunghuz
    Hunghuz 23 November 2019 09: 06
    +8
    The Olokhov group worked on the case. Competent decision
    1. Adjutant
      Adjutant 23 November 2019 09: 28
      +7
      А
      The army of A. A. Brusilov retreated to the Gorodok position without enemy pressure.
  5. XII Legion
    XII Legion 23 November 2019 10: 03
    +9
    One operation ended, others began.
    Thank you!
  6. valdissumy
    valdissumy 23 November 2019 11: 35
    +1
    Thanks so much for the article. It mentions just two military units in which my grandfather served.
    In the 202nd Gori Infantry Regiment from 1911 to the beginning of 1914, my grandfather served military service in the city of Gori, Georgia. And since August 1914 in the 238th Vetluzhsky Infantry Regiment of the 60th Infantry Division of the 10th Army Corps. Unfortunately, the last entry in the Regiment's Military Journal is dated May 24, 1915, and then only resumes on August 14, 1915.
    According to the "Named loss lists of the 238th Vetluzhsky Infantry Regiment from June 1 to 30, 1915," the grandfather is missing on June 6, 1915. For this day, the 75 lower ranks of the regiment are missing. In total, during this period, the losses of the lower ranks of the regiment amounted to 1255 people: 17 were killed, 81 injured, 1157 were missing.
    On the site "In memory of the heroes of the Great War" we managed to find a prisoner of war card: "......, born in 1889. Sumy of Kharkov province. 238th Vetluzhsky infantry regiment of the 12th company. At the front since August 1914. Place of capture Lviv June 19, 1915. POW camp, Reichenberg, Austria. "
    According to his father, the prisoner of war camp where his grandfather was was in northern Italy.
  7. Brutan
    Brutan 23 November 2019 16: 07
    +8
    The 3rd Army and the Southwestern Front also got it. But the enemy is hard.
    And the war is in full swing
  8. Kapitan a
    Kapitan a 24 November 2019 02: 18
    +6
    Thanks to the author. In such operations, military art is manifested. It is easy when there are a lot of things at hand: both infantry and artillery. But when the enemy has all this and you have a little more than nothing - this is where the most interesting part begins ...
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