The evolution of an automaton in the USSR and in Russia in the context of the American NGSW program

The Kalashnikov assault rifle of the 1947 sample, the modernized Kalashnikov assault rifle (AKM) and the Kalashnikov assault rifle under the low-pulse AK-74 cartridge

The development of automata in the USSR

Since the mid-20th century, the main infantry weapons Armed forces of the Russian Federation (RF) is a Kalashnikov assault rifle. After adopting the Kalashnikov assault rifle with the 1947 model (the same AK-47) under the intermediate cartridge 7,62x39 mm, its design was continuously improved, primarily in terms of increasing the manufacturability of the design. Soon after the USA adopted the M16 rifle under the low-pulse intermediate cartridge 5,56x45 mm, the USSR adopted the AK-74 submachine gun under the similar low-pulse intermediate cartridge 5,45x39 mm.

In addition to improving the design of the Kalashnikov assault rifle, other types of small arms were also considered in the USSR that could supposedly replace the Kalashnikov assault rifle in the ranks of the Soviet armed forces.

Prototypes of machine guns of Nikolai Afanasyev

Prototypes of German Korobov assault rifles

Experienced machine E.F. Dragunova

Experienced Stechkin assault rifle

No less active in the Soviet Union was the possibility of using various types of ammunition in promising small arms, including sagittal sub-caliber bullets. Nevertheless, not one of the cartridges being developed was brought into service and mass production, and at the time of the collapse of the USSR, the main low-pulse ammunition of the caliber 5,45x39 mm remained the main ammunition of small arms.

Experienced cartridges and arrow-shaped sub-caliber bullets developed in the USSR

Systematic work on the new machine was carried out in the USSR from the 1978 of the year as part of the Flagok research work (R&D), and then, from the 1981 of the year, as part of the Abakan experimental design work (R&D). The main requirement of the OCD "Abakan" can be considered to increase the accuracy of firing from the machine in automatic mode. Eight prototypes took part in the competition for the new machine, with several options - TKB-0111 designer G.A. Korobov, N.M. Afanasyev TKB-0136, I. Ya. Stechkina TKB-0146, V.M. Kalashnikov battery , APT Postnikova I.A., AEK-971 Koksharova S.I. and Garev B.A., AEK-978 Pikinsky P.A., AS Nikonova G.N.

From top to bottom TKB-0111 (Korobov G.A.), TKB-0136-3М (Afanasyev N.M.), TKB-0146 (Stechkin I.Ya.), AEK-971 (Tarev B.A.), AEK- 978 (Pikinsky P.A.), AFM (Nikonov G.N.)

The TKB-0146 submachine guns Stechkina I. Ya. And AFM Nikonova G.N. reached the finals of the OCD “Abakan”, in which a scheme with a recoil impulse shift was used, which significantly increased the accuracy of fire in short bursts.

Stechkin I. Ya. TKB-0146 submachine gun executed according to the bullpup scheme was rejected. Part of the reason could be a certain conservativeness of the military in terms of the bullpup layout, but one cannot fail to note a significant drawback of this machine gun - the need for double chambering of the cartridge (the cartridge is fed into the barrel through an intermediate feeder with two twitches of the shutter handle).

The Nikonov G.N. submachine gun was adopted for service under the designation AN-94, but in fact, was not purchased in significant quantities. It is believed that this happened due to the collapse of the USSR and the lack of adequate funding, but in fact the AN-94 is an extremely complex and specific weapon that does not have radical advantages over the AK-74 in the caliber 5,45x39 mm.

Nikonov rifle arr. AN-94 "Abakan"

The development of machines in the Russian Federation

In Russia, the choice of a new machine for the armed forces began in 2012 as part of the creation of promising military equipment for the serviceman (RRC “Ratnik”), commissioned by the Ministry of Defense (MO). The scale of the competition for the selection of an automatic machine in the framework of the RRC "Ratnik" was clearly not comparable with the ROC "Abakan" of the Soviet period. In fact, information is known about the choice between the upgraded Kalashnikov assault rifle NPO IZHMASH, issued under the code AK-12 in caliber 5,45x39 mm and AK-15 in caliber 7,62x39 mm, with A-545 and A-762 assault rifles (also upgraded AEK-971, respectively) in calibers 5,45x39 mm and caliber 7,62x39 mm, developed at the plant them. Degtyarev and machine guns 5,45A-91 and 7,62A-91 in the bullpup layout developed by the branch of KBP JSC - TsKIB SOO. The finalists were AK-12 / AK-15 and A-545 / A-762, and at the first stage of the competition, the machines of the plant named after Degtyareva proved to be better than machine guns of NPO IZHMASH.

Automata factory them. Degtyareva A-545 caliber 5,45x39 mm and A-762 caliber 7,62x39 mm

There was no talk of new ammunition, and the choice between ammunition of the caliber 5,45x39 mm and 7,62x39 mm was not finally decided, so we decided to leave both. The main caliber is still considered to be the 5,45x39 mm caliber, but from time to time there is information that the option of returning to the 7,62x39 mm cartridge as the main caliber of small arms is being considered.

Meanwhile, the new Kalashnikov assault rifles, having undergone significant transformations, entered the second part of the competition. As they “optimized,” the new Kalashnikov assault rifles lost their futuristic look and some of the previously announced functions — bilateral controls, shutter lag, and quick barrel replacement.

Automatic machines NPO Izhmash of the AK-12 / AK-15 series - from prototype to production model

The competition ended quite specifically. It seems like AK-12 / AK-15 series machines won, but A-545 and A-762 machines with balanced automation will be purchased for special units. The main reason for choosing AK-12 / AK-15 machines is their lower cost, which is only several times (two to three?) Higher than the cost of AK-74, while the cost of A-545 and A-762 machines is supposedly higher the cost of AK-74 is about ten! time. The contract provides for the delivery within three years of one hundred and fifty thousand AK-12 and AK-15 assault rifles. It is planned to supply fifty thousand automatic machines in 2019, 2020 and 2021 year. In what proportion will the AK-12 be delivered and the AK-15 not reported. It is also not known how many A-545 and A-762 machines will be purchased in the end. However, it can be assumed that in the end both plants will receive their own piece of budget pie.

A number of sources question the feasibility of purchasing AK-12, AK-15, A-545, A-762 assault rifles. Products for the AK-74 / AK-74M assault rifles have been developed such as the “Modernization kit - Kalashnikov assault rifle” (KM-AK) according to the OCD “Body kit”, which can improve the ergonomics of these weapons and provide the ability to install additional equipment. The ergonomics of the AK-74 / AK-74M in the “body kit” practically do not differ from the ergonomics of the AK-12, AK-15, A-545, A-762 machines, while the increase in their efficiency hardly justifies a purchase with a price from two to ten times higher than the cost of AK-74 / AK-74М, while the latter are available in huge quantities in warehouses. You can also create a similar “Bodykit” for AKM assault rifles of 7,62x39 mm caliber, thereby completely closing the line of assault rifles for the armed forces in 5,45x39 mm and 7,62x39 mm calibers.

Modernization kit for Kalashnikov assault rifle “Body kit”

There is also an opinion that Kalashnikovs manufactured in the seventies and early eighties are superior in quality to those that are being produced now, but there is no reliable information as far as this information is true and in what condition this weapon is in storage depots.

What can be assumed for sure is that “body kit” kits cost much less than new weapons, and for manufacturers supplying “body kits” to the armed forces is an order of magnitude less attractive than supplying new weapons. Although it is possible that for the armed forces the best solution would be to purchase 300-500 of thousands of “Bodykit” sets than to buy 150 000 assault rifles with conditionally improved characteristics. However, apparently, this is a matter of the past tense.

NGSW program and its consequences for the RF Armed Forces in case of success or failure

When the United States talked about the transition to a new cartridge of the caliber 6,5-6,8 mm, it was widely believed that such cartridges as the 6,5x39 mm Grendel or 6,8x43 mm Remington SPC are considered the new main ammunition of the US armed forces. In extreme cases, something new, for example, the same telescopic cartridge Textron Systems 6,8CT / 7,62CT, but with approximately the same energy 2200-2600 J. However, judging by the latest information about the NGSW program, the new cartridge of the caliber 6,8 mm is supposed to be made with energy of the order of 4000-4600 J, which is more than the existing rifle cartridges 7,62x51 mm 7,62x54R.

Cartridges 5,56x45 mm, 6,5x38 Grendel, 6,8x43 Rem SPC, 7,62x51 mm

As mentioned in the previous articleDue to the high estimated power of the promising 6,8 mm caliber cartridge, the U.S. armed forces may face the same problems that they pursued in Vietnam with the M14 rifle chambered for 7,65x51 mm.

Based on this, two scenarios for implementing the NGSW program can be considered:
1. NGSW members will not be able create a weapon that provides both a significant increase in range and high armor penetration, combined with a fairly low recoil, and an acceptable mass of weapons.

In this case, weapons created under the NGSW program will occupy a limited niche in the US armed forces. The largest acquisition of the US Armed Forces in this case will be the NGSW-AR machine gun under the new 6,8 mm caliber cartridge, considered instead of the M249 SAW machine gun under the 5,56x45 mm caliber cartridge. The NGSW-R rifle, which is being developed to replace the M4, is likely to occupy the niche of the Marxman weapon, displacing the mentioned M14 rifle from it.

As for the bulk of the American military, they will either have to be content with weapons chambered for 5,56x45, or its analogue, but under any of the mentioned cartridges of the type 6,5x39 Grendel or 6,8x43 Rem SPC. If a new weapon will be developed for the promising telescopic cartridge Textron Systems 5,56CT / 6,8CT / 7,62CT, then its energy will not be at the level of 4000-4600 J, but at the same level as the same 2200-2600 J, most likely quite achievable in the cartridge 7,62x39 mm

2. NGSW members will be able to create a weapon that provides both a significant increase in range and high armor penetration, combined with a fairly low recoil, and an acceptable mass of weapons.

In this case, the US armed forces will carry out a phased transition to new weapons. First, they will be armed with special operations forces (MTR), then the most warring units, and then everyone else.

Possible response of the Russian armed forces to the NGSW program

In the case of the implementation of the 1 scenario, when the weapons sold under the NGSW program receive limited distribution, retaliatory measures can cost the Russian armed forces "little blood."

As a weapon opposing the promising American machine gun NGSW-AR caliber 6,8 mm, a single Pecheneg machine gun under the cartridge of the caliber 7,62x54R or its upgraded version can be considered. Potentially inferior to the promising American machine gun in terms of the mass of the weapon itself, the mass of ammunition and the persistence of the trajectory, it will traditionally surpass it in reliability. The Pecheneg machine gun can be upgraded to reduce weight, but the main means of increasing its effectiveness should be the development of modernized 7,62x54R ammunition with increased accuracy and armor penetration.

Single machine guns "Pecheneg" and "Pecheneg-SP" caliber 7,62x54R

A similar situation is with the Marxman rifle. As it can serve as a modernized version of the SVN rifle caliber 7,62xNUMXR, and promising weapons such as the Chukavin sniper rifle (UHF).

7,62x54R Chukavin sniper rifle

Alternatively, an AK-308 assault rifle can be developed for the 7,62x54R cartridge, which can claim the same niche as the FN SCAR-H and HK-417 rifles of the 7,62x51 mm caliber.

Automatic AK-308 caliber 7,62x51 mm

The most difficult task will be to decide on the final choice between the calibers 5,45x39 mm and 7,62x39 mm, in the case of the transfer of the majority of US troops to weapons chambered like 6,5x39 Grendel, 6,8x43 Rem SPC with 2200-2600 J energy (as we said earlier, such a scenario is possible if armaments capable of completely replacing the M4 rifle under the NGSW program are not created, but the caliber 5,56x45 mm is finally recognized as ineffective).

The question of the appropriateness of switching from a cartridge of 7,62x39 mm to a cartridge of 5,45x39 mm and vice versa is periodically raised both in the press and, apparently, in the armed forces. At the beginning of the 2019 of the year in the thematic collection “Missile-technical and artillery-technical support of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation - 2018”, information appeared again from the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation that the issue of the refusal of the armed forces from small arms of the caliber 5,45x39 mm and full transition to caliber 7,62x39 mm. It can be assumed that these throwings are also connected with information about the transition to a larger caliber of the US Army.

By the way, the transition from an 5,45x39 mm cartridge to an 7,62x39 mm cartridge can send almost all new weapons purchased under the Warrior program to warehouses, which confirms the hasty decision-making on this program.

The claimed advantages of 5,45x39 mm cartridges compared to 7,62x39 mm cartridges are largely due to the fact that modern cartridges of the 7,62x39 mm caliber are not developed and are not manufactured. It can be assumed that in the case of developing a promising armor-piercing cartridge in caliber 7,62x39 mm, with design solutions similar to those used in the 7X39 5,45x39 mm caliber cartridge, the characteristics of the prospective armor-piercing cartridge 7,62x39 mm do not exceed the initial 2200x2600 mm caliber characteristics not only the initial 7Н39 cartridge, but also a promising American cartridge based on 6,5x39 Grendel or 6,8х43 Rem SPC. In the promising armor-piercing cartridge of the caliber 7,62x39 mm, modern solutions can also be used to reduce the mass of the cartridge, in order to prevent a significant reduction in the mass of the carrying ammunition compared to that for weapons of the caliber 5,45x39 mm.

As the basis for the development of weapons under the promising armor-piercing cartridge of caliber 7,62x39 mm, with an initial energy of 2200-2600 J, one can consider the RPK-16 light machine gun, implemented in the caliber 7,62x39 mm. The advantage of this weapon is its heavy, quickly replaceable barrel, which should increase the accuracy of firing and provide quick replacement of the barrel when its resource is exhausted (which is important for cartridges with increased initial energy and bullet speed). The RPK-16 weight in the version with a short barrel is 0,8 kg more than the mass of the AK-12 assault rifle, which can be considered acceptable, taking into account that the mass of the adopted AN-94 assault rifle was 3,85 kg.

RPK-16 machine gun of caliber 5,45x39 mm in the short-barrel version

An important addition to the promising weapon of the caliber 7,62x39 mm based on the RPK-16 can be a silencer designed to reduce recoil and partially reduce / distort the sound of the shot, similar to how it is implemented in the American NGSW program.

Instead of chromium plating, barrel carbonitriding technology can be considered to increase barrel survivability. The carbonitriding process consists in the diffusion saturation of the surface layer of the treated channel with carbon and nitrogen, as a result of which the surface layer acquires hardness up to 60 HRC, increased wear resistance and corrosion resistance. Unlike chromium plating, carbonitriding does not change the geometrical dimensions of the barrel bore; therefore, carbonitriding does not affect the accuracy and accuracy of weapons, which makes this technology a more advanced method of protection. According to the manufacturers, the life of the carbonitered barrel should be at least 10-15 thousand shots.

Thus, the Russian response to the NGSW program "in case of its partially successful implementation" (1 script) may look like this:
1. Upgraded machine gun "Pecheneg" caliber 7,62x54R with reduced weight.
2. The upgraded SVD rifle or the Chukavin sniper rifle of the 7,62x54R caliber or the AK-308 assault rifle variant with increased accuracy and accuracy of fire under the 7,62x54R cartridge.
3. The new 7,62X54R caliber cartridge with increased accuracy and armor penetration.
4. New 7,62x39 mm caliber cartridge of increased accuracy and armor penetration with an initial energy of 2200-2600 J.
5. 7,62x39 mm caliber machine gun based on the RPK-16 light machine gun with a supersonic silencer and barrel carbonitration.

As for the second scenario, in which participants in the NGSW program will be able to create weapons that provide both a significant increase in range and high armor penetration, combined with a fairly low recoil, and an acceptable mass of weapons, then in this case it will not be possible to get off with "little blood".

It will require complex and expensive research and development, intensive testing, as well as costly rearmament of the Russian Armed Forces with a new cartridge and weapons for it.

According to the information provided by the director of the cluster of conventional weapons, ammunition and special chemistry of Rostec Sergey Abramov to the TASS news agency, the Rostec state corporation is developing small arms in new calibers. What kind of calibers in question are not specified. It is reported that in August 2019, the Central Scientific Research Institute of Precision Engineering (JSC TsNIITOCHMASH) received a patent for the invention of modular firearms. Presumably, these works were activated just in response to the American NGSW program.

In the following material, we will try to suggest which projects and concepts can be implemented by the Russian industry if the NGSW program is successful with the prospect of replacing the M4 rifle with the NGSW-AR rifle under the promising 6,8 mm caliber cartridge.

Comments

[Pessimist22]

A group with 5,45 assault rifles and 7,62x54 machine guns will be more effective than the Yankees with their 6,8.

[Zeev Zeev]

Will not be. In the special forces there and there, in the infantry unit, the caliber should be uniform.

[Oden280]

What difference is what caliber. The cartridge is different in any case.

[Zeev Zeev]

Why is this different? The same Americans and M4 and M249 under one cartridge. Moreover, M249, in addition to the tape, can also use standard stores.

[Michael HORNET]

Somehow to use ... they are not happy with their 249 and dream of ours or a PC or PKK) The KMP adopted, as you know, the concept of a single rifle on a bipod instead of a separate machine gun and a separate machine gun - in fact ALL are armed with a shortened PKK
In general, the article is adequate and the potential of 7.62x39 has not really been exhausted yet, but we can only realize it by switching to the sub-caliber bullet, increasing the pressure and really bringing the weapons into the PKK

[Private-K]

Ahaha. Formally, the cartridge for the M4 carbine and the M249 machine gun is the same, but in fact - different!
Honored Amer Sergeant Marine with chevrons on the whole arm will not lie.

[Zeev Zeev]

I shot the cartridges from the M249 directly from the tape laid in a disposable box at the factory. The usual M855 and M856. Exactly the same as for the M4. Yes, and the old M193 with proper tuning of the gas regulator should shoot without problems.

[Michael HORNET]

So the compatibility problem is that using the machine gunner’s cartridges with the M249 isn’t possible for the rest, you can’t get out of the tape at a reasonable time. And with stores M249 wedges
Therefore, the KMP switched to Marxman rifles without exception

[Zeev Zeev]

In order for "Minimi" not to wedge with the store, it is necessary to put the gas regulator in a different position. I understand that in the conditions of a battle you can forget about it from adrenaline, but in general this operation takes three seconds.

[psiho117]

The use of magazines is possible, but not recommended, since the likelihood of a skew of the cartridge is increased and a transverse rupture of the sleeve is possible

This is a statement by the developers. They also do not know how to switch the gas regulator to another position?

[Zeev Zeev]

Can you see the same sentence in English? Or in french?

[bunta]

Quote: Pessimist22

A group with 5,45 assault rifles and 7,62x54 machine guns will be more effective than the Yankees with their 6,8.

That's right!

[psiho117]

Quote: Pessimist22

A group with 5,45 assault rifles and 7,62x54 machine guns will be more effective

Rather, they will be equivalent, and those who have better knowledge and position will steer.

[illi]

At close range, yes. On the far more powerful single cartridge is more effective. The point is different, the Yankees are used to fighting because of the lack of normal opponents over long distances.
But if the enemy is more or less equal, then the distance will decrease.
Here, on YouTube, the Americans are brave that they will kill the Russians like a hell.

If ours accept the conditions of Amers and fight at comfortable distances for those distances, then it is valid, if they don’t kill, they will have an advantage. Only in the war with the Russians who will give them comfortable 2 km and 23 minutes to prepare.

[KrokodilGena]

Quote: illi

The point is different, the Yankees are used to fighting because of the lack of normal opponents over long distances.

It is unclear why you got this, but that's all nonsense. Rather, the opposite. It is enough to watch a lot of videos from Afghanistan, Iraq, the assaults of all densely-built districts. In the USSR, they did not pay much attention to sniper shooting, so there is neither an adequate weapon, nor experienced shooters capable of conducting aimed fire starting from 1000m. A good example of a modern long-range combat rifle is the German G28, with it you can fire at 1200m at night, thanks to ext. thermal imager in front of the main sight.

[Vanek]

Quote: KrokodilGena

In the USSR, they did not pay much attention to sniper shooting

Look, read how snipers have been prepared since the fall of the 41st. Marvel If you find what you need to read.

We have such systems, but we won’t tell you about them *

[LastPS]

In the Soviet Union, attention was still paid to sniper shooting, the fact that the same Americans did not have specially trained snipers in the troops during WWII was enough, and they began to prepare them in large numbers, as if not after it (during WWI, snipers were present in the American army ), in the Union, DOSAAF massively trained the population in shooting in the 30s.

In 1935, 1 thousand people were awarded the Voroshilovsky shooter sign of the 900st degree, 2 people were awarded the Voroshilovsky shooter of the 4706nd degree.

It is enough to look at the rating of snipers to understand how seriously they took sniper training in the union.
The appearance of the SVD after the war was a logical continuation of the Russian sniper traditions, this is, in fact, the first Marxman rifle in general. A weapon created specifically for snipers, and not as a refinement of a standard army rifle. Moreover, the very concept of the SVD, as a mass weapon, as it alludes to the fact that in the Soviet army an infantry sniper was a mass phenomenon and considerable attention was paid to their preparation.

[Operator]

Without exception, all the weapon models presented in the article, including the 7,62x54 mm caliber, cannot be compared with the models presented in the NGSW competition for a simple reason - the competition is based on the complexity of the "new cartridge + new rifle / machine gun" solution.

In our country, starting from the 1980-s, they mostly poured from empty to empty - they demanded to develop something new for the castable 7,62x39 mm, 5,45X39 mm and 7,62x54 mm. Sub-caliber bullets with swept elements and an 6x49 mm cartridge in the Soviet version did not take off.

With NGSW, everything will be a bundle - steel-core bullets solve the task (breaking through the army armor vest of the highest protection class), the set of sleeves contains all-metal ones, and the increase in the recoil momentum is completely extinguished by standard silencers.

What will happen to us is unknown.

[Pessimist22]

A new cartridge with a bullet and against it will not pull 6,8 to a PC. I read an article in Afghanistan like a perfume with a pair of PCs and several AKs simply did not allow the Yanks to fire from their M4 and Minimi, like that.

[illi]

I’ve read an article about how in Afghanistan perfumes with a pair of PCs and several AKs simply didn’t let the Yanks go at a distance of fire from their M4 and Minimi, like that.

Well yes. The main thing here is "somehow read the article." But in real life it was the opposite, the Americans simply did not allow the fire of the spirits to come into the distance. Such an episode certainly has the right to be from a well-fortified position.

[Pessimist22]

In real life, as I understand it, you have not read about this episode, but were present at the positions?

[illi]

I just read another article. That the Americans in Afghanistan and Iraq won the shooting battle, due to greater accuracy. That is, they simply did not allow the enemy to reach the effective range for that shooting. And as we understand, the enemy just had AK and PC.

[Pessimist22]

You will find out what effective range the PC has and what the M4 and Minimi have.

[illi]

And what does the PC have to do with it? To pray with all the platoon on the PC? What if his sniper is taken out? All the advantage has melted. Here you need to look comprehensively and not indicate that the PC is better. Naturally, a rifle cartridge is better than 5,56x45 mm. Well, the PC must be compared with M240 and not Minimi.

[psiho117]

Quote: Operator

Everything will be a bunch with NGSW

I wouldn’t be so sure yet ... Congress and the Headquarters Committee have already cut off more than one such program.
Moreover, this program has an obvious cant - it was developed under rifle cartridge for replacement intermediate, but this is impossible. A similar epic with the M-14 has already been in the American army, and society and generals still remember it. And how happy the soldiers will be to switch from the light and convenient M4 to the heavy and kicky "novelty" ... The weight of the ammunition is also important ...
In general, KMK, the first option described by the author of the article, is closer to the truth. Everyone who wanted to replace 5,65 with something more powerful - this is the most "powerful" they already have, for any ammunition convenient for them - at least 6.8 REM, at least 7.62 NATO, at least .300 "Blackout". There are those for whom it is not so important.
And the program itself is simply an advancement of the interests of the arms giants.

[Operator]

Quote: psiho117

impossible

This is the wrong word, it is necessary (one way or another to break through bulletproof vests) - this is the right word.

[Saxahorse]

Quote: Operator

This is the wrong word, it is necessary (one way or another to break through bulletproof vests) - this is the right word.

What for? From afar, the task of suppressing the infantry is solved by artillery (95% of losses), 6 "a bandura bulletproof vest that has fallen nearby does not care. And close to piercing the vest, this is also not the only solution. ?

[Revival]

))))))))))))))))

[Pavel57]

And what percentage of losses from the bayonet?)))

[Droid]

There is no need to pierce armor plates.

[prodi]

Well, they’ll introduce a shield into the infantry’s outfit instead of a bronik, and as a frame for all wearable equipment, say, a meter and a half meter ... And how to bring it down in an attack?

[Droid]

Why bring it down? He himself will die under this shield.

[prodi]

this is too optimistic a scenario: I don’t know how strong the back is in the armor plates, but here it folds with the frontal surface, the shield is bent, does not fit close to the body, the weapon can be mounted on it, and I don’t think it’s so difficult to place and collimator scope

[Droid]

This is a realistic scenario. The surface density of the ceramic armor plate protecting the 7,62 mm rifle armor-piercing bullet ~ 0,35 kg per square. dm. The area of ​​the shield is 1x0,5 square meters. m. will be 50 square meters. dm, which gives us 17,5 kg. Apart from everything else.

[prodi]

So are we shooting 5.45x39 or 7.62x54? But all the same, for example, taking into account a competent bend against the firing sector, the weight of the shield will drop to 10 kg, plus an assault rifle with cartridges ... But then you can not press too much while running?

[Droid]

We shoot everything we have. And in each motorized rifle unit there is a BMP with an automatic gun and PKT. Any bend only increases the area and hence the mass. Soldiers will turn into slow, slow targets.

[prodi]

Thank you, I like about FCT

[3danimal]

It is important to determine who the battle is against. If they are Americans, they will seek to crush air defense and gain air superiority. Then any equipment on earth will last very short. Plus, infantry units will be armed with anti-tank systems.

[Droid]

Those. they are attacking. I'll see how they run into the attack with a 17 kg shield, apart from everything else.

[3danimal]

They can defend themselves, but have not heard anything about the 17kg shield. They are used only for storming buildings, as far as is known.
The presence of such a quantity of aircraft and means of destruction makes it possible to greatly “save” (and there is such a desire) their soldiers.

[Droid]

You read the comment thread above. From there you can find out who suggested the shield and why it is 17 kg.

[Simargl]

Quote: Operator

the increase in the recoil momentum is completely extinguished by standard silencers.

Maybe DTK?

[Operator]

In accordance with the TTZ of the NGSW contest, all models of self-loading rifles and light machine guns must be equipped with exactly silencers (which also work as a muzzle brake).

[Simargl]

Quote: Operator

(which work including as a muzzle brake)

Oh, I see. You don’t understand how the muffler works, nor how the DTC works.
If very simple, a silencer is a device where the gas expands and loses energy, transferring it to the walls of the device. In the vast majority of designs, they do not have gas discharge channels not in the direction of the shot (roughly speaking, the gas goes behind the bullet), but even if the gas is redirected to the direction of the arrow, the reactive action will be closeо to zero.
DTK is a device that redirects the flow of gases so that it pulls the barrel forward (compensating for recoil) and, sometimes, to the side (compensating for flipping / turning / pulling). DTC for the shooter is both good (less return, a little less volume for the victim) and evil (higher shot volume for the shooter, lower accuracy).

[psiho117]

Quote: Simargl

Maybe DTK?

No, it’s a tactical muffler. And the function of the muzzle brake is by default.

[illi]

and the increase in the recoil momentum is completely extinguished by standard silencers Give you a Nobel Prize in physics. "How to reduce the recoil impulse by muting the sound"

[Operator]

The muffler works by reducing the speed of the powder gases (by expanding and cooling them).

As a result of reducing the speed from 1250 to 300 m / s, it provides a decrease in the momentum of the return of powder gases (1 / 3 from the total index of return of gases and bullets)

[Simargl]

Quote: Operator

As a result of a decrease in speed from 1250 to 300 m / s, a reduction in the momentum of the return of powder gases is ensured (1/3 of the total index of return of gases and bullets)

Impulse is mass times velocity. So "and bullets" are nonsense, because the muffler does not reduce the speed of the bullet.
The speed of gases, which are no more than 2 g, is usually reduced.
In addition, the energy must go somewhere. The muffler does not heat up slightly and, when fired intensively, becomes clogged, overheats, and its properties deteriorate.

[Operator]

The factor is the mass of the powder charge.

[Simargl]

Quote: Operator

The factor is the mass of the powder charge.

what?

Quote: Simargl

The speed of gases, which are no more than 2 g, is usually reduced.

There is nothing more to slow down.

[psiho117]

Quote: illi

Yes, you give a Nobel Prize in physics. "How to Reduce Recoil Impulse by Muting Sound

sarcasm is inappropriate. PBS really reduces recoil - the exhaust gases press on the silencer bulkheads, thereby partially compensating for the recoil momentum.

[SVD68]

Quote: psiho117

PBS really reduces recoil - the exhaust gases press on the silencer bulkheads, thereby partially compensating for the recoil momentum.

Gas in all directions presses with equal force. Those. the pressure on the silencer bulkheads in the direction of the bullet movement is compensated by the pressure with the same pressure on the same bulkheads in the opposite direction.

[psiho117]

Quote: SVD68

Gas in all directions crushes with equal force

yes, yes, yes, if this is an ideal gas sphere.
But in reality - this is not so. Judging by your logic, the muzzle brake does not work either?
We google "active muzzle brake" and do not disgrace ourselves by ignorance of physics

[Simargl]

Quote: psiho117

yes, yes, yes, if this is an ideal gas sphere.

This is if the sphere. Any gas will act like that.

Quote: psiho117

But in reality - this is not so.

Reality - it does not depend on us - it is so ...

Quote: psiho117

Judging by your logic, the muzzle brake does not work either?

Muzzle brake closed system?

Quote: psiho117

We google "active muzzle brake" and do not disgrace ourselves by ignorance of physics

Here! Act!
I’ll hint: gas is reflected from the front wall of the diesel engine and, thereby, pulls the barrel forward (while it goes into the atmosphere). And in the muffler the muffler, the gas, reflected from the bulkhead, meets another bulkhead on the way ....
So do not make people laugh.

[Simargl]

Quote: SVD68

Gas in all directions presses with equal force.

Here, it seems, the adherents of alternative physics have gathered ... regrettably ...

[haron]

Quote: Simargl

Gas in all directions presses with equal force.
Here, it seems, the adherents of alternative physics have gathered ... regrettably ...

With the expiration of gases from the trunk, can some of them move most in the direction from the trunk? - maybe a certain distance. It is at this distance that the silencer bulkheads are located. Acting on a bulkhead with an energy of let's say 100 joules, the gas gives it 70 joules and is reflected not radially but backwards (we look at the radial shape of the walls of the bulkhead). The reflected gas gives off the remaining 30 j. relatively evenly to all walls of the chamber. In this case, the back wall will get a maximum of 10 joules. Total 70 joules push forward, 10 j. back.
Watch a video of a bullet flying out of the barrel .... slowly.
Where is "alternative physics" here? unless those who rave about titanium mufflers.

[Revival]

In particular: Caliber 7,62 gives designers more room for technical solutions

[3danimal]

Following this logic, 8,6 or 9,3 mm gives even greater opportunities.

[Private-K]

With NGSW, everything will be a bunch - bullets with a steel core solve the task (breaking through the army armor vest of the highest protection class)

Resolve the question - why are you so pushing that the Americans have bullets with a steel core?

[Operator]

The Americans have a well-developed design of semi-shell armor-piercing bullets with a hardened carbon steel core in all army calibres 5,56x45, 7,62x51 and 12,7x99 mm - for example M855A1 (the head of the steel core, the tail of the bismuth alloy for weighting)

Why will the Americans make an exception for 6,8X51?

[The leader of the Redskins]

Thanks for the interesting and well-organized article. I read it with pleasure.

[rocket757]

Just wondering ... not about the "fairy tale" sweaters, but this is ce la vie.

[Zeev Zeev]

Two questions:
A. What is the point of preserving the frankly outdated 7.62x54 cartridge with a welt, which is high time to be removed to mobilization warehouses, or even removed from service.
Q. What is the point of using two different cartridges in one platoon? Or is it so difficult to create a light machine gun with a tape for cartridges, interchangeable with automatic platoon machines?

[Pessimist22]

And what does Pecheneg not like?

[figwam]

Quote: Zeev Zeev

Two questions:
A. What is the point of preserving the frankly outdated 7.62x54 cartridge with a welt, which is high time to be removed to mobilization warehouses, or even removed from service.

Too many weapons under this cartridge.

Quote: Zeev Zeev

Q. What is the point of using two different cartridges in one platoon? Or is it so difficult to create a light machine gun with a tape for cartridges, interchangeable with automatic platoon machines?

Something tells me that such a machine gun will be under-machine gun.

[Zeev Zeev]

AND). Something tells me that to rebuild and modernize this weapon under a proportionate, but more modern cartridge is not at all difficult. And on the basis of this new cartridge already develop new weapons
C) Under machine gun is the PKK. Since there is no tape.

[figwam]

Quote: Zeev Zeev

Something tells me that to rebuild and modernize this weapon under a proportionate, but more modern cartridge is not at all difficult.

Due to the other characteristics of the new cartridge, it will be necessary to replace not only half of the parts in the weapon but also to re-test it, and then start the production of hundreds of millions of cartridges and rework of hundreds of thousands of barrels with the corresponding modernization at the enterprises, this will take years and billions. It’s more logical to create a new weapon under a new cartridge using modern developments and materials.

[Zeev Zeev]

So they will not develop new weapons. Because there is no new cartridge. But there is no new cartridge, because there are many old cartridges and weapons under them. Vicious circle.

[figwam]

Quote: Zeev Zeev

So they will not develop new weapons. Because there is no new cartridge. But there is no new cartridge, because there are many old cartridges and weapons under them. Vicious circle.

While the old cartridge and weapons are coping, there will be no new one, as soon as it becomes clear that the ammunition is not enough, the cartridge will be developed, and after it the weapon.

[iConst]

Quote: Zeev Zeev

the meaning of preserving a frankly outdated cartridge 7.62x54 with a welt

Cheap (with a groove more expensive), with good ballistics, works well in the tape (with shops bad), with good energy. There are not many shortcomings and they are not critical.

[Zeev Zeev]

Is a cartridge without a flange so expensive to hold onto a cartridge that does not allow simplifying a weapon? And for machine guns the old cartridge is worse, because you still need to remove it from the tape, and the wafer goes directly to the barrel.

[bunta]

Quote: Zeev Zeev

What is the point of preserving the frankly obsolete 7.62x54 cartridge with a welt, which is already high time to be removed to mobilization warehouses,

To begin with, you need to design and implement in metal a reliable scheme for extracting the tape "without flashing" for the weldless cartridge. Why not "to flash" need to explain?

[Zeev Zeev]

Yes, I’m very interested in why the firmware tape is bad.

[bunta]

Extends weapon length, see M60 and PC design

[Zeev Zeev]

Strongly increases? 100 mm?

[John22]

The issue is debatable: M60 is 1105 mm long with a barrel of 560 mm, PC - 1173 mm with a barrel of 658 mm. If you level the trunks, then the PC is shorter by 65 mm.

[Michael HORNET]

Moreover, the M60 is almost a bullpup. We also have Pecheneg converted into a bullpup - it’s generally short

[psiho117]

Quote: Zeev Zeev

What is the point of maintaining a frankly outdated cartridge 7.62x54 with welt

The point is its power, huge reserves and production sophistication.
Creating a new cartridge without welt is not a problem ... But why? The work of a weapon with a weld cartridge has long been worked out, and the welt does not create any problems for anyone. It only burns at the Internet military, here it is, blood from the nose - take it out and put a new cartridge!

[Zeev Zeev]

In terms of power, this cartridge is inferior to the NATO 7.62 one and a half times, if that. And with a flangeless cartridge, weapons will be simpler, easier and cheaper (I'm talking about machine guns basically)

[SHOPPING MALL]

Quote: Zeev Zeev

In terms of power, this cartridge is inferior to the NATO 7.62 one and a half times, if that. And with a flangeless cartridge, weapons will be simpler, easier and cheaper (I'm talking about machine guns basically)

If you are talking about 7,62x54R against 7,65x51, then the first is more powerful, and is available in armor-piercing versions, and the second can be found much more accurately.

[Zeev Zeev]

The fact of the matter is that 7.62x51 has energy not less than the Mosin cartridge, but more. 3470 J for standard versus 2666 J. And there are armor-piercing rounds too.

[SHOPPING MALL]

Quote: Zeev Zeev

The fact of the matter is that 7.62x51 has energy not less than the Mosin cartridge, but more. 3470 J for standard versus 2666 J. And there are armor-piercing rounds too.

BS-40 arr. 1940 g. - 3840-4151 J
7H14 1999 y. - 3200,6-3332,7 J

For a specific weapon:
1. Maxim machine gun, model 1910 / 30 of the year, barrel length 720mm
bullet "D": weight 11.8g, V0 800 m / s, E0 3776 J
bullet "L": weight 9,6 g, V0 865 m / s, E0 3591 J
source: tables of firing at ground targets from small arms under a rifle cartridge 7.62mm, Military Publishing House of the Ministry of Defense of the USSR, 1948

2. SVD rifle, barrel length 620 mm
cartridge with LPS bullet: weight 9,6g, V0 830 m / s, E0 3306 J
cartridge with a bullet 7H1: weight 9,6g, V0 835 m / s, E0 3347 J
source: NSD on SVD

3. PC machine gun, barrel length with 658 flame arrester mm
cartridge with LPS bullet: weight 9,6g, V0 825 m / s, E0 3267 J
source: NSD on PC / PKS / PKT
cartridge with a bullet BZ (7-BZ-3): weight 10.9g, V0 825-855 m / s, E0 3709 ... 3984 J
source: reference book "Cartridges for small arms", Kharkov, 2003

4. PKT machine gun, barrel length 722 mm
cartridge with LPS bullet: weight 9,6g, V0 855 m / s, E0 3509 J
source: NSD on PC / PKS / PKT

5. rifle SV-98, barrel length 650 mm
cartridge 7H14, bullet weight 9.8g, V0 820 m / s, E0 3295 J
source: instruction on CB-98

6. M1891 / 30 rifle, barrel length 730mm
cartridge with armor-piercing bullet B30: bullet weight 10,8g, V0 830 m / s, E0 3720 J
source: source: reference book "Cartridges for small arms", Kharkov, 2003

I think the potential of 7,62x54R has not yet been exhausted. If you create a cartridge by analogy with 7Н39 "Needle", then it is quite possible to get more than 4000 J for SVD, Pecheneg or promising microwave. I like 7,62x51 only in that if we talk about civilian weapons, their darkness is dark, for any request and with any energy. And for the military, he is good for the lack of a hem.

[Zeev Zeev]

Yes, you're right, I confused the line from feet to pounds with joules. Sprinkle ash on the head. In any case, the difference is small. 100-200 J

[Simargl]

Quote: AVM

I think the potential of 7,62x54R has not yet been exhausted.

Yeah! The potential of sailboats with the advent of steamboats was not exhausted.

[SHOPPING MALL]

Quote: Simargl

Quote: AVM

I think the potential of 7,62x54R has not yet been exhausted.

Yeah! The potential of sailboats with the advent of steamboats was not exhausted.

By the way, it is still not exhausted in certain niches. Automated ships with solar panels and a sail can sail for years, solving various problems.

But if regarding the 7,62x54R cartridge, then I am not a supporter of the idea of ​​a "samurai sword", when outdated technology is being licked to absolute perfection, while others have already moved onto flying saucers. Everything here depends on financial capabilities and the notorious cost / efficiency ratio.

If the NGSW program fails, then it makes no sense for us to drive horses, small arms are a conservative direction, it is better to invest in breakthrough developments than to simply upgrade a huge fleet of weapons. But at the same time, efficiency needs to be raised, and upgrading the cartridge for existing weapons is a perfectly reasonable step.

According to reviews, the cartridge 5,45x39 mm 7N39 "Igolnik" shows significantly better results than its predecessors. It is logical to extend the technologies implemented in it to the 7,62x39 mm and 7,62x54R cartridges.

[Simargl]

Quote: AVM

By the way, it is still not exhausted in certain niches. Automated ships with solar panels and a sail can sail for years, solving various problems.

These are not exactly those sailboats. There is no wool in modern high-tech sails - it is more efficient to use either a blade generator or a Magnus sail (turboparus). Well, solar panels are not for sailboats.

Quote: AVM

But if regarding the 7,62x54R cartridge, then I am not a supporter of the idea of ​​a "samurai sword", when outdated technology is being licked to absolute perfection, while others have already moved to flying saucers.

Here the question is not to the manufacturability of the cartridge, but to the design of the weapon under it. But you can stick a bullet and gunpowder any.

Quote: AVM

If the NGSW program fails, then it makes no sense for us to drive horses,

I wrote above that in my opinion - the near future for a sleeveless cartridge with a bullet of large elongation (not an arrow) with a caliber of about 6,5 mm.

Quote: AVM

According to reviews, the cartridge 5,45x39 mm 7N39 "Igolnik" shows significantly better results than its predecessors. It is logical to extend the technologies implemented in it to the 7,62x39 mm and 7,62x54R cartridges.

Better, but he has already run into opportunities in practice. It’s possible to spread it, they’ll do it, but there’s no point in holding onto technologies that don’t give a fundamental gain: in the world, it seems, all possible calibers and cartridges have been tried - learn how much you can fit.
Need a jump.

[Daddy pig]

"Automated vessels with solar panels and sails can sail for years" just look at them ...)

[Michael HORNET]

Cartridge 7.62x54 for use in machine guns is not outdated)
Moreover, it is for machine guns that it is much better - it has optimal energy, which can be increased a little more, with a large resource for the machine gun barrel (this is important, you must agree).
There are many rounds of ammunition and weapons under it and replacing it is unrealistic. Plus - it’s absolutely pointless, since for a tape the weld cartridge is just what you need
The normal asymmetric response of the Yankees is more PC machine guns and Preparing l / s for firing at long distances. In general, nothing more is needed. A few people know how to shoot aiming at long ranges, so give everyone a machine gun
The 5.45 cartridge does not need to be changed, it is an excellent cartridge for the mass soldier. The combination of 5.45 and 7.62x54 is more than enough to solve ALL small arms fire tasks in modern combat
You can also add a Marxman in the form of SVD, but not instead of the AK-74 assault rifle, but with a plus to it, as a gain
SVD allows you to hit the target at 700 m with confidence, with a new cartridge, probably at 800 m you can fire confidently. But for this we need a shooter of appropriate training and a laser rangefinder for him and another wind meter
And the problem of body armor is absolutely far-fetched

[SHOPPING MALL]

Quote: Michael HORNET

The 5.45 cartridge does not need to be changed, it is an excellent cartridge for the mass soldier. The combination of 5.45 and 7.62x54 is more than enough to solve ALL small arms fire tasks in modern combat

Quite possible. But why then is this issue periodically raised at the level of the RF Armed Forces? I believe that in this matter it is necessary to finally determine by developing a cartridge 7,62x39 mm by analogy with 5,45x39 mm 7Н39, i.e. modern cartridge 7,62x39 mm, test and make the final choice between cartridges 5,45x39 mm and 7,62x39 mm, and then do not return to this topic.

[Droid]

Quote: AVM

Probably.

It is impossible.

Quote: AVM

I think that in this matter it is necessary to finally determine by developing a cartridge of 7,62x39 mm by analogy with 5,45x39 mm 7H39

No need to develop anything. And so it is clear that 7,62 will completely merge in ballistics, mass and recoil momentum, which will result in a lower probability of hitting.

[Michael HORNET]

In the Russian Federation “issues are periodically raised” mainly on only one topic - how to promote something, get a tranche, steal it .. uh to master and do nothing
From here flocks of Armat, new helicopters, nuclear-powered missiles, etc.
And even a new machine, which under the Old Construct turned out to be “only two three times more expensive))))

[Droid]

Quote: Zeev Zeev

What is the point of preserving the frankly outdated cartridge 7.62x54 with a welt, which is high time to be removed to mobilization warehouses, or even completely removed from service.

Wrong question. The right question is - what are the benefits of the new cartridge? Here 6x49 gave such advantages, but the work was stopped due to the collapse of the country.

[IS-80_RVGK2]

Quote: Zeev Zeev

What is the point of using two different cartridges in one platoon?

The point is in the balance of the amount of wearable ammunition, range and armor penetration of a shot.

[Zaurbek]

Missed another single machine gun 8-9mm, which is lighter .50 and more powerful 7,62x54R

[Eug]

The plastic shell of the bullet to reduce barrel wear is not considered?

[bunta]

Quote: Eug

The plastic shell of the bullet to reduce barrel wear is not considered?

Excluded due to deterioration in accuracy.

[K-50]

In the promising armor-piercing cartridge of the caliber 7,62x39 mm, modern solutions can also be applied to reduce the mass of the cartridge, in order to prevent significant declines the mass of a portable ammunition compared to that of a weapon of caliber 5,45x39 mm.

Perhaps the author meant "promotion"?
For reducing the mass of ammunition without reducing it in quantity is good.

[SHOPPING MALL]

Quote: K-50

In the promising armor-piercing cartridge of the caliber 7,62x39 mm, modern solutions can also be applied to reduce the mass of the cartridge, in order to prevent significant declines the mass of a portable ammunition compared to that of a weapon of caliber 5,45x39 mm.

Perhaps the author meant "promotion"?
For reducing the mass of ammunition without reducing it in quantity is good.

with a view to to prevent significant weight reduction

[K-50]

Quote: AVM

in order to prevent a significant reduction in the mass of portable ammunition

Here I am talking about too.
how is this "avoidance of weight loss"?
Moreover, mass reduction is a positive point.

[3danimal]

We are talking about reducing the number of wearable cartridges with a constant mass, apparently.

[SHOPPING MALL]

Quote: K-50

Quote: AVM

in order to prevent a significant reduction in the mass of portable ammunition

Here I am talking about too.
how is this "avoidance of weight loss"?
Moreover, mass reduction is a positive point.

Yes, you are right, of course, to prevent an increase in mass

[Catfish]

The article is very interesting, thanks to the author. It’s interesting when all this mess with development will end and we will finally make a concrete decision what the army needs and what it needs to fight in the future.

[san4es]

Hello Cat!

... than to fight her in the future.

In response to the (future) Shtatovsky 6,8x45, the AK-308 7,62x51 would be a priority:

[Catfish]

Hi Sanya! Thanks for the video, a killer thing!

[Simargl]

Quote: Sea Cat

It’s interesting when all this mess with development will end and we will finally make a concrete decision what the army needs and what it needs to fight in the future.

Neither here nor in the world. Until they make a normal cartridgeless cartridge.
And, most likely, there will be a heavy bullet of large elongation. I think 6,5 mm + / -...

[illi]

Well, firstly, the author again suffered on VK alloys. That for machine-gun (machine-gun) cartridge is certainly unacceptable.
Secondly, the second development scenario is impossible, because physics cannot be fooled.
Here, rather, the Americans are trying to create a third option.
1. A single cartridge with all the advantages. 2. The range will remain no worse than it is (or slightly better). 3. Weight (weapon_patron) will increase slightly. Thanks to the new plastic cartridge. 4. Penetration will increase. 5. The return will increase unambiguously, with all the attendant.

[Avior]

physics cannot be bypassed, but it can be applied correctly.
otherwise, the refrigerator would not work - when examined superficially, it contradicts the second law of thermodynamics, like other heat engines.
There are ways to reduce recoil without reducing cartridge power.

[illi]

Well yes there are. And they lead to more complicated designs, more weight, less reliability and more value.

[Avior]

The days of simple hand-held automatic weapons have passed.
If you want to get higher performance, you have to complicate it.
No matter how expensive the cartridge, PP with a free shutter can no longer be dispensed with.
Therefore, Americans are trying to get a comprehensive solution.

[illi]

Well, all the same, it is unlikely that it will be possible to achieve the same return as on a 5,56x45 mm cartridge without the disadvantages listed above. So in the new cartridge (complex with weapons) to achieve an absolute advantage over the old will not succeed. Anyway, something will turn out to be a loss, something will have to be sacrificed.

[Avior]

Apparently, now the level of production technology has begun to allow the production of sophisticated weapons that allow the use of powerful ammunition, with acceptable quality at an acceptable cost.
And what happens, see.

[SHOPPING MALL]

Quote: illi

Well, firstly, the author again suffered on VK alloys. That for machine-gun (machine-gun) cartridge is certainly unacceptable.

VK is, as I understand it, tungsten-cobalt?

7Н39 cipher "Needle holder" - cartridge 5,45х39
Alloy Pointed Bullet Core tungsten carbide (92%) and cobalt (8%)is produced by pressing metal powders followed by sintering.
At a range of 100 meters, punches a sheet of the CT3 brand with a thickness of 24 mm, at a distance of 100 m it provides 100% penetration of the armor vest section 6Б23-1, at a distance of 550 meters it provides 100% penetration of an armor plate made of 2П steel.

[illi]

Well, why Americans do not solve the problem of armor penetration with tungsten? It seems that there are some advantages, and a new cartridge is not necessary, and armor penetration is growing significantly. So no, they are fools new cartridge and weapons under it muddy. They are probably not as rich as we are.

[SHOPPING MALL]

Quote: illi

Well, why Americans do not solve the problem of armor penetration with tungsten? It seems that there are some advantages, and a new cartridge is not necessary, and armor penetration is growing significantly. So no, they are fools new cartridge and weapons under it muddy. They are probably not as rich as we are.

The new 6,8 mm cartridge seems to be considering the use of a tungsten carbide core.

[illi]

Well, now there is a core of tungsten in any modern army under any cartridge. Naturally, if the Americans take a new cartridge, then they will make a tungsten bullet under it. Only now these products are more and more for snipers and special forces, and the steel core remains the workhorse.

[Pavel57]

Intrigue what new caliber are considering. 6.5 could be a compromise.

[Oleg (Kharkov)]

cartridge in the picture. 4th left. with three arrows ... can I get a little more information?

[Vladimir_2U]

Type in the search "domestic swept bullets" and will

Quote: Oleg (Kharkov)

a little more information

.)))

[Alexander Alekseev_2]

"Experienced Dragunov assault rifle" - it was in the evening ...?)

[Operator]

Quote: Saxahorse

But why?

And then let's replace expensive and heavy AKs with sights with cheap and lightweight PPPs - at the same time, additional funding will appear for artillery (which solves the issue)

[Vladimir_2U]

Damn, I can't imagine a magazine for a welted cartridge with more than 10 rounds! A modern machine gun with a magazine for less than 20 rounds is nonsense and heresy, and even in the war in the "light" was burned, with the wrong equipment of the store, isn't that enough? A wonderful excuse in my opinion to get rid of this anachronism!

[Simargl]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

I can’t imagine a store with a welded cartridge with more than 10 rounds!

DP-27. 47 pc
But about getting rid - I agree

[Vladimir_2U]

Damn, how could I forget, and DT has 63 at all! ))) And still it is possible

Very comfortable, rumored. )))

[Pushkowed]

I can’t imagine a store under a welded cartridge with more than 10 cartridges

Bren (early, pre-NATO): nominally 30, really 28-29 (the designers were optimistic):

And this is Chauchat, honorary holder of the title "the-worst-machine gun-of-all-time-and-peoples", 20 rounds:

[Vladimir_2U]

Uh, let’s say, Bren has at least a normal store, albeit from above, and a cartridge with a groove. And for the rest of the options you designers .., will not be praised for sure.)))

[MORDVIN13rus]

Where did you read such a heresy that Bren worked on unmanned cartridges? Up to the Mk.4 Bren model, the 7,7x57R cartridge (aka .303 British) was easily digested, it’s quite a welcoming cartridge.

[Vladimir_2U]

Yes, and wonderful, I did not go into much, but he worked no worse on the non-entrant. By the way, as an achievement, it is believed that "the designers managed to create a magazine with a two-row arrangement of cartridges, which is quite unusual for cartridges with a protruding rim", and still the welt added problems:
"Since the .303 British cartridge was often warped or clinging, it was recommended to load the magazine with 28-29 rounds - this practice was often used in automatic weapons chambered for bullets with a protruding rim, the magazines were" under-equipped "for several rounds."
There is information that they were under-equipped due to a stiff spring, but one thing is a drum for 70 (or whatever the PPSh had), and a magazine for 30 rounds, so it's most likely a welt. In addition, more skillful fighters were appointed as machine gunners and second ones than the usual infantry, and they treated the equipment of the stores more carefully. This "nuance" mercilessly highlighted the massive experience of using SVT in the Soviet infantry.

[MORDVIN13rus]

I had a foreman in the army. An Afghan and both Chechens passed, and so they also loaded 25-27 rounds of ammunition into the store, since the springs were sinking very easily at old stores. So the welt, bezrant, no difference. Just under the ammunition cartridges stores a little more complicated and no more.

[Vladimir_2U]

In general, stores are not recommended to be equipped for a long time. and you do not understand the difference between a stiff spring and a planted one, or what?

Quote: MORDVIN13rus

Where did you read such a heresy that Bren worked on unmanned cartridges?

Actually, Bren was a Czech machine doped under the English cartridge, and initially it went under the Mauser cartridge. And yes, Bren was and is under 7,62 * 51, so you got into a heresy.

Quote: MORDVIN13rus

So the welt, bezrant, no difference

A bezrant, in principle, does not have such a delay as clinging a cartridge to a cartridge in a store, if it has not yet reached you.

[MORDVIN13rus]

Are we talking about Bren or ST? Bren was created under the British cartridge. The fact that during the unification of NATO ammunition it was subsequently modernized under 7.62x51, no one denies. If you properly equip the store with a welded cartridge, then there will be no problems with the supply of cartridges. Well, a stiffer spring, oh how, but how do you wake up the last cartridges ??? A simple example of GSh-18. Normally, with your hands you can equip it with only 15 rounds. The rest with 3 hands you can’t equip with just a stiff spring.

[Vladimir_2U]

You decide whether the store is outfitted because of a leaked spring, or because of a tight one? In their right mind, no one will artificially reduce the capacity of the store even by 2-3 rounds, if this does not threaten delays, and the Angles reduced it precisely because of the welt.

Quote: MORDVIN13rus

If you properly equip the store with a weld cartridge

Once again, the massive adoption of the SVT and showed that not everyone can correctly equip the store for it, the machine is even more massive weapons, and if it is re-mounted under the wound cartridge, it will be just an epic item ...

[SVD68]

Here you can still recall our cartridge 6x49. Of course, it was not finalized, but there is a backlog.
Although the issue of small arms should be considered in conjunction. Firstly, in combined arms combat small arms are not the main damaging factor. And therefore, communication and management can have a greater effect.
Secondly, according to American research, only one in ten infantrymen can conduct a conscious battle of small arms. The identification of such people and arming them with a machine gun or a sniper (Marxman) rifle, and the rest with light automatic weapons with more ammunition, can also be more effective.

[SHOPPING MALL]

Quote: SVD68

Here you can still recall our cartridge 6x49. Of course, it was not finalized, but there is a backlog.

About him in the following material on the topic.

[Droid]

All the insinuations about the return to 7,62x39 and supposedly its some kind of modernization potential is just rubbish. 7,62x39 will never even come close to 5,45 in ballistics, mass and recoil momentum, and, accordingly, in firing efficiency.

[SHOPPING MALL]

Quote: Droid

All the insinuations about the return to 7,62x39 and supposedly its some kind of modernization potential is just rubbish. 7,62x39 will never even come close to 5,45 in ballistics, mass and recoil momentum, and, accordingly, in firing efficiency.

Why then is this issue periodically raised at the level of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation?

At the beginning of the 2019 of the year in the thematic collection “Missile-technical and artillery-technical support of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation - 2018”, information appeared again from the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation that the issue of the refusal of the armed forces from small arms of the caliber 5,45x39 mm and full transition to caliber 7,62x39 mm.

[bunta]

The thematic collection cannot contain official information "outgoing" from the RF Ministry of Defense. There, including current officers, publish their articles, but their point of view is not the official point of view of the Ministry of Defense. I read this article.

[psiho117]

Quote: AVM

Why then is this issue periodically raised at the level of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation?

Because handshakers who are not versed in military affairs (but who think of themselves hoo! ) there are as many as on our Internet.
That is a lot.
And they all imagine themselves to be "experts" in shooting, although they were holding AKM in their hands during the time of the deadline, 30-40 years ago. Well, or not at all.
But now they have amicably enrolled in the ministers of the 7,62 Witnesses sect, and 5,45 haut.

Quote: Droid

7,62x39 will never even come close to 5,45 in ballistics, mass and recoil momentum, and, accordingly, in firing efficiency.

I support with two hands for.

[3danimal]

Probably, someone from the high-ranking military periodically wants a "more powerful cartridge". You can pay attention to research in the United States on a pistol cartridge. 9mm, .40S & W, .357Sig were compared. And the recommendations were - 9mm, since it is more likely to hit the target, especially for not very experienced shooters.
By analogy - 5,56 / 5,45 - is optimal for welds, you can even consider 4,5-5mm large elongation.
Although it is more convenient when the machine gun and machine gun have one ammunition.

[Michael HORNET]

If you use a sub-caliber bullet - it will even come close and even surpass. The return will be a little more, yes

[Kolin]

Some kind of fantasy flight about 7,62x39, there will be no more, calm down.
The 5,45 bullet ballistic coefficient is greatly improved and then it can exceed the existing 7,62x54 in range.
7,62x54 can be upgraded.
You can take 6,7x51 or modify 6x49.

[Michael HORNET]

So it’s impossible to “greatly improve” the ballistic coefficient, especially in a cheap cartridge
To do this, you need a core of tungsten carbide and cobalt, which will raise to about 0.43, and the price tag of the cartridge will be 10 times more expensive

[Denimax]

Somehow I came up with the idea of ​​a weapon for pilots, I think the PP is not very suitable, only a sniper can make an enemy lie down. Since the rifle is supposed for the pilot, it should be as compact as possible. Automation on a long rollback of the barrel with a wedge shutter, as on artillery equipment, and the G-shaped rammer as on Korobov’s machine gun. The store is inserted from above, shooting from the shoulder, as with an RPG. The alleged advantages are like the convenience of shooting off guard, the entire weight of the weapon on the shoulder, also from the lying position, the store does not rest on the ground. You can use welded cartridges in an enlarged store, served almost by gravity.

[SHOPPING MALL]

Quote: Denimax

Somehow I came up with the idea of ​​a weapon for pilots, I think the PP is not very suitable, only a sniper can make an enemy lie down. ...

I considered this issue in the article "On ammunition, army pistols and submachine guns in the RF Armed Forces" - https://topwar.ru/162774-o-boepripasah-armejskih-pistoletah-i-pistoletah-pulemetah-v-vs-rf. html

PMSM is best for this task, a silent weapon with a range of 200-400 meters, i.e. something under the cartridge 9x39 type Shaft, 9A91 or AK for this cartridge with simple and reliable optics with 4x multiple magnification.

[Denimax]

It seems to me that you need to be able to shoot from Val, ballistics like a howitzer. I think it would be preferable to weapons with high ballistics. IMHO

[Glory1974]

There is also an opinion that Kalashnikovs manufactured in the seventies and early eighties are superior in quality to those that are being produced now, but there is no reliable information as far as this information is true and in what condition this weapon is in storage depots.

Under Serdyukov, they gave the command to the old AK-74 to be disposed of, and get new ones from the warehouses.
From the warehouses, the machines were in excellent condition, brand new, storage was carried out at the proper level.
The only drawback is that all assault rifles do not have a bar for mounting dovetail sights. Therefore, we had to leave several dozen old barrels for night shooting in parts.

[SHOPPING MALL]

Quote: glory1974

There is also an opinion that Kalashnikovs manufactured in the seventies and early eighties are superior in quality to those that are being produced now, but there is no reliable information as far as this information is true and in what condition this weapon is in storage depots.

Under Serdyukov, they gave the command to the old AK-74 to be disposed of, and get new ones from the warehouses.
From the warehouses, the machines were in excellent condition, brand new, storage was carried out at the proper level.
The only drawback is that all assault rifles do not have a bar for mounting dovetail sights. Therefore, we had to leave several dozen old barrels for night shooting in parts.

But this requires a kit of modernization of Kalashnikov assault rifles KM-AK, developed according to the ROC "Body kit".

[Glory1974]

We certainly need to improve weapons, and for sure, the corresponding work is going on with us.
But we have not yet filled the gap in the use of optical sights for each shooter. If 100% of the fighters are equipped with weapons with optics, including a night one, this will give a much greater effect in battle.

[Pushkowed]

The new 7,62X54R caliber cartridge with increased accuracy and armor penetration.

7N37?
This kind of experience. Tungsten carbide core.

Upgraded SVD rifle or Chukavin sniper rifle of caliber 7,62x54R or version of the AK-308 assault rifle

SVDK?
Caliber as much as 9,3X64 mm. By the way, why not adapt it for a machine gun?

[psiho117]

Quote: Pushkowed

SVDK?
Caliber as much as 9,3x64 mm. By the way, is it possible to adapt it for a machine gun

He has no ballistics. This is a hunting cartridge for short hunting - for an elephant, a hippopotamus.
This "product" (SVDK) has no military use.

[3danimal]

.338 Lapua Magnum
Ideal for both a sniper rifle and a machine gun. In many cases, it will replace a 12,7mm rifle / machine gun.

[psiho117]

Quote: 3danimal

338 Lapua Magnum
Ideal for both a sniper rifle and a machine gun

It is poorly suited for a machine gun in general, and auto fire in particular. This cartridge is optimized for shooting from sniper weapons, mainly rifles.
With Norma Magnum, the situation seems to be better - the Americans are testing the LWMMG machine gun, the SIG-Sauers on the AUSA18 also presented the SL MAG light machine gun, and the prototype MCX MR carbine for this munition

[Technical engineer]

7,62 drives. everything else from the evil one

[dgonni]

My teeth creak. If normal training then 7.62. If what happened at the end of 80x? For window dressing? Well so a trifle. For it’s easier to get to the training ground and do not need to be trained in fact.
P.S. Yes, no need to run after the caliber! There is ammunition efficiency! 7.62 proved! A little gunpowder change and voila!
A bit heavier than the barrel and have an unkillable machine gun.
I am silent for the bar for sights and picatinny. A priori.
Or again forehead in concrete for shtatovtsev?

[3danimal]

What to do with the worst ballistics? And the percentage of hits with 7,62x39 will be less, especially with an increased momentum.

[SHOPPING MALL]

Quote: 3danimal

What to do with the worst ballistics? And the percentage of hits with 7,62x39 will be less, especially with an increased momentum.

An increased powder mount will increase the trajectory, and a closed-type fuel transformer will reduce recoil. About closed-type DTC in the following article: https://topwar.ru/164855-zabytyj-sovetskij-patron-6h49-mm-protiv-patrona-68-mm-ngsw.html

[3danimal]

An increased powder mount will increase the initial velocity of the bullet, and hence the recoil momentum. A muzzle brake can level only a limited percentage of it.

[SHOPPING MALL]

Quote: dgonni

My teeth creak. If normal training then 7.62. If what happened at the end of 80x? For window dressing? Well so a trifle. For it’s easier to get to the training ground and do not need to be trained in fact.
P.S. Yes, no need to run after the caliber! There is ammunition efficiency! 7.62 proved! A little gunpowder change and voila!
A bit heavier than the barrel and have an unkillable machine gun.
I am silent for the bar for sights and picatinny. A priori.
Or again forehead in concrete for shtatovtsev?

It is a most a simple solution in case the NGSW program does not give positive results. Therefore, the article also proposed the development of improved cartridges 7,62x39 mm and weapons based on the RPK-16 caliber 7,62-39 mm with a weighted barrel and receiver.

[dgonni]

I'm wildly sorry of course. But why the weighted receiver when locking the barrel by engaging the shutter larva? To make a larva with three teeth, I still understand. For minor accuracy and smaller opening angles. But why weight the receiver? Get laid out here!

[SHOPPING MALL]

Quote: dgonni

I'm wildly sorry of course. But why the weighted receiver when locking the barrel by engaging the shutter larva? To make a larva with three teeth, I still understand. For minor accuracy and smaller opening angles. But why weight the receiver? Get laid out here!

As I understand it, the receiver is reinforced to increase the overall stiffness of weapons designed for intense shooting. At least this is in the RPK-16, which is based on AK-12.

[dgonni]

Considering the fact that during modernization, acanoids can digest NATO 7,62. There is no need to strengthen the receiver! The beauty of the AKM system is precisely in that in fact the reverse impulse does not extend to the receiver as such. Relocation and reliability and long service life with indestructibility!
P.S. On the old cartridge, you just need nothing. Slightly better than gunpowder, a little longer and heavier than the barrel. For 7-10 centimeters. We get the best ballistics, better penetration. The ability to use trillions of ammunition stock and the rest of the profits. But essno to dig money in new calibers the generals with the manufacturers are not shy. Sorry

[Operator]

Quote: AVM

from an alloy of tungsten carbide (92%) and cobalt (8%)

This is not a metal alloy, but cermet (a ceramic-metal composite) made of a matrix (cobalt metal) and a filler (ceramic - tungsten carbide).

The metal alloy of tungsten, nickel and iron is designated VNZH-95 and is used in BOPs cores.

[Saxahorse]

However, judging by the latest information on the NGSW program, the new 6,8 mm cartridge is supposed to be made with an energy of about 4000-4600 J, which is more than the existing rifle cartridges 7,62x51 mm 7,62x54R.

There are many comments, but commentators are too carried away by the banal discussion of all the same Soviet calibers and completely forgot the main idea of ​​the article.

Meanwhile, I would like to remind once again that the Americans are trying to combine in the new program a cartridge power increased by 1000-1500 J with a low return on old, small-caliber systems. That is why it was a question of a complex, cartridge plus a rifle (or machine gun).

For this, the author reminded our domestic developments, including attempts to reduce returns due to the design features of the rifle. Perhaps this can be achieved by developing old fire monitors. Or Gast's double-barreled scheme. Well, or the new microwave is also a step towards reducing returns.

[prodi]

Yes, everything is clear to everyone: a cartridge is needed more powerful, moreover, it can even remain in caliber 5.45, but in any case the weapon will become heavier, the wearable ammunition will decrease, and automatic fire from the main mode will go into the option, preserved only by the machine gun

[3danimal]

Double-barreled - a bad option, immediately increases the complexity and weight of the weapon.
5,45mm is quite good. There are excellent ammunition for it, and most shooters are more likely to hit.

[Saxahorse]

Quote: 3danimal

5,45mm is quite good. There are excellent ammunition for it, and most shooters are more likely to hit.

This is the approach I point with my finger :)

Once again, Americans dream of creating a cartridge twice as powerful as an intermediate cartridge (such as 5.45x39), but with approximately the same return. If possible, it will be cool.

The question is - do we have any developments in this direction?

[3danimal]

Yes, it will not work. You compare the impulses: in 6,5-6,8 the bullet is twice as heavy, and the speed is only 10% lower. Consequently, the return will even exceed our 7,62x39, but less than 7,62x51.
Recently, a study was underway in the same USA to select the best cartridge for a pistol (discussed in one of the articles on VO). As a result of the recommendation - leave 9mm Para, for the maximum number of hits with arrows. It is this criterion that is recognized as the main one in hitting a target.

[Operator]

Quote: Simargl

what?

Through ... - 2 grams multiplied by 1250 m / s. make up 1 / 3 of 9 grams multiplied by 900 m / s.

[Basarev]

As you can see, in Russia such attempts look very pale. All of them are aimed only at one thing - to keep in service with the same AK, which has not fundamentally changed since the Stalin era. All changes in the design - only tinsel and a minor trifle. Russia definitely needs a completely new machine, created in complete isolation from the existing ones - just like in the American program, a completely new weapon is created, and not minor improvements to the emka. Kalashnikov, on the other hand, became an analogue of Mil - his only advantage remains a shaggy paw in Moscow Region, but he never possessed technological superiority. That is, only because of the mighty lobby, our soldiers are armed with old and suffer unreasonably high losses. In Russia, in general, the life of a soldier was never taken seriously, only money. For many centuries Russia has been ruled by grabbers worse than Jews - despite all the tricks, Jews at least value the lives of their soldiers and work for the good of their people and their country. And our cones only have a wallet in their head.

[Droid]

You are talking nonsense.

[Okolotochny]

I agree. And very often.

[3danimal]

As for the small reverence for the lives of our soldiers, it is quite true.

[shinobi]

The Yankees will drink some money, release a couple of "superdevices" and return to what they left from, which has happened more than once or twice. Ours will do their own thing in return, hand them over to the warehouse and continue to use the Kalash because they are not looking for good from good. In my humble opinion , the transition from 7,62 to 5,45 was a mistake. It was necessary to upgrade and bring to mind the design of the AK, and not play with the caliber.
PS: All the basic engineering and design solutions for the shooting range took shape at the beginning of the 20th century. All its further development goes along the path of cutting off excess weapons and simplifying its production. Well and a little new materials. A little bit.

[DeGreen]

I agree. 7 caliber it is more reliable

[Michael HORNET]

Oh no, like an army cartridge 5,45 is better than 7,62
Another thing is that immediately it was necessary to make weapons under a single intermediate cartridge, not 7.62, but 6.5x39 Grendel. Here is 6.5 Grendel or something close to it, the most optimal cartridge for a hand gun

[shinobi]

They came to the rifle caliber of 7-8 mm for a reason. This is the optimal combination of the mass of a bullet to the size determining ballistics and penetration, it has been holding for almost 150 years. 6,5 mm is the lower limit on efficiency.

[3danimal]

"Bring to mind" - in essence, to re-complicate the design. An-94, although AEK are in service, but the desire to purchase them in large quantities does not appear.

[DeGreen]

Kalash Malash. Take an example from Ukraine. There was a good old PPP 43. The Ukrainians set the Pickatenko bar on it, plastic stores, 9 gauge. And here it is a weapon of victory over Russia. Yes, and more .... from the Polish teaching staff 43, which had a wooden butt, they made a machine gun, lengthened the barrel and put bipods. And now ... another flight of thought