Military Review

Will new Russian rockets fly into space?

112
One of the main November News The contract for the production of Angara-1.2 rockets, which were supposed to launch space communications satellites of the Gonets system, became the terminated contract by Roskosmos for the Russian cosmonautics. The corporation decided that the Soyuz-2 launch vehicle will deliver satellites into orbit. At the same time, the start of serial production of Angara missiles was once again postponed; now their production should begin in Omsk at the facilities of the Polet production association in 2023.




Missile "Angara". 25 years - no progress


The contract for the construction of Angara rockets with a total value of more than two billion rubles, which was signed between the Khrunichev Center and Roscosmos on 25 on July 2019, was terminated on October 30, which in some ways was a real sensation. Earlier, the Russian space corporation hoped to launch the “Gonets-M” communications satellites into space; launches were to take place in 2021 using the Angara-1.2 launch vehicle. Now, Roskosmos says that the launches will be carried out with the participation of the Soyuz-2 launch vehicle, this rocket is fully adapted to launch the Gonets communication satellites, therefore, there should be no problems with their launch into space.


The Angara-1.2PP rocket before launch


According to RIA Novosti, citing the first deputy general director of the Gonets Satellite System company Oleg Khimochko, the company currently has 9 Gonets communications satellites in storage, three of which are planned to be launched into space at the end of this year at the help of the Rokot rocket. The remaining six communication satellites will be launched into orbit using Soyuz-2 launch vehicles adapted for their launch. At the same time, until the end it is unknown that launches in 2020 or 2021 will take place.

One of the reasons for Roskosmos’s abandonment of Angara for carrying out the indicated launches is called a chronic lag behind the schedule for launching rockets of a new family in Omsk at the facilities of NPO Polet. The official reason for the refusal of the earlier contract was not called by Roskosmos, but they confirmed that they were still interested in the production of a new Russian missile, the development of which has been carried out with varying degrees of intensity for almost a quarter of a century. According to the plans of the state corporation, the deployment of serial production of Angara universal missile modules in Omsk remains a priority. According to a Roskosmos press release, the Angara rocket version is heavy, which should replace the Proton-M launch vehicle in the 2024 year.



This news is once again alarming for the Russian project of a modular-type rocket with new oxygen-kerosene engines. Work on the Angara rocket family, capable of releasing loads of 2 to 37,5 tons in space, began in Russia in the 1995 year. Almost 25 years have passed since then, the cost of the project for all this time could reach three billion dollars. Estimates of the project cost vary, but it is difficult to adequately calculate them, including because of the long development period. As a result, the rocket, which has long been called the "hope of the Russian cosmonautics", flew only twice. The first launch of the new rocket took place on July 9 2014 of the year ("Angara-1.2PP" - the first launch). It is noteworthy that this was a test suborbital flight of the light version of the rocket. The flight passed normally, the rocket overcame 5700 km, reaching the Kura test site in Kamchatka. The second and last flight of the Angara at the given moment took place on December 23 of the 2014 of the year, it also took place as usual. The Angara-5 heavy-class rocket launched into the geostationary orbit with an altitude of 35,8 thousand kilometers a payload model weighing just over two tons.

On this all the successes of the new Russian modular missile end. For comparison, the cost of developing a direct competitor of Angara at this stage - the American Falcon 9 launch vehicle manufactured by the private company SpaceX, cost Ilon Mask about 850 million dollars. Of which, according to data released by SpaceX in the 2014 year, 450 million dollars amounted to the company’s own funds, another 396 million dollars - NASA sponsored the project. NASA’s assessment in the 2010 year seems to be curious, according to which the development of such a rocket during the implementation of state contracts would cost American taxpayers $ 3,97 of a billion dollars.

It is worth noting that today the Falcon 9 launch vehicle, made both in a single and partially reusable version, is actively pushing Roskosmos out of the commercial space launch market. Starting from the 2010 year, 74 launches have already been completed, only for the incomplete 2019 year, 8 successful rocket launches were made, of which 7 launches were accompanied by a successful landing of the first stage, in the last launch the landing was not carried out. By the end of 2019, the Falcon 9 booster should go into space another 5 times.


SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket


Problems of the Angara rocket


One of the main problems of the Angara launch vehicle is called by its obsolescence, which is increasing every year. It affects the long development period that has been going on since the mid-1990's, when the missile industry was faced with chronic underfunding of work. During this time, design and engineering thought went very far ahead, which perfectly demonstrates the example of the Falcon 9 rocket, which received a return first stage.

Browser of the newspaper “Vzglyad” Alexander Galkin believes that the Angara rocket is already “morally obsolete”, so there is no point in continuing attempts to modernize it. In his opinion, the project had to be abandoned 10 years ago. And the best solution would be to focus on the development and production of a similar class Soyuz-5 rocket. Galkin especially noted the lack of intelligible internal tasks for the new Russian missile. In fact, its main customer is the Russian Ministry of Defense, which is able to cover all of its space needs with lighter rockets, like the same Soyuz. For the load that the heavy version of the Angara can put into orbit, there are simply no tasks in Russia.

In the absence of domestic tasks, it would be reasonable to assume that the rocket could interest foreign buyers. But here two problems arise immediately - the first is the unknown and uncertainty. Over the 25 years of development, the rocket flew only two times, no one is ready to pay for a pig in a poke without statistics on raids and confidence in how the new rocket will behave. Nobody is ready to risk the launch of multi-billion-dollar spacecraft. The second problem is the high cost of rocket production, which will remain so without improving the manufacturability of production and the deployment of serial production at the level of 6-7 missiles per year.


Launch of the Angara-A5 rocket


It is known that the Angara launch vehicle is regarded as a replacement for the Proton-M rocket, which is also confirmed by the latest Roskosmos press release. At the same time, the cost of the rocket remains very high. Yuri Koptev, who is the head of the scientific and technical council of Roscosmos, said in an interview with Russian media on 15 on April 2018 that the cost of the first Angara-A5 rocket amounted to 3,4 billion rubles, which is comparable to the cost of two Proton-M missiles. According to the plans of the corporation, a set of measures aimed at reducing the laboriousness of rocket production and the possibility of carrying out 6-7 launches per year will help to reduce the cost of the rocket by approximately 1,5-2 times, and by 2025 the cost of launching the Proton-M and Angara-A5 rockets "Will have to equal and amount to approximately 55-58 million dollars. In any case, the cost of the rocket can be reduced only with an increase in production volumes, but so far in Omsk it is not possible to establish even the release of a light version of the launch vehicle.

Methane fuel and return stages


A salvation for the Russian space industry could be reaching a new technical level. If you believe the statements of Dmitry Rogozin (how much you can trust the statements of Rogozin, readers can decide for themselves), Roscosmos is actively working on two new concepts for the corporation: a special system for returning launch stages to Earth and a new methane-propellant rocket engine. Both technologies promise quite tangible advantages, the only question is whether it will be possible to implement such projects and when it will happen.

The Krylo-SV project, which is the development and rethinking of the Baikal project, whose debut at the Le Bourget air show took place back in the 2001 year, is considered as a return stage in Russia. In 2018, the Advanced Research Foundation talked about how a subsonic technology demonstrator will be created in our country within four years as part of the project to create the return stage of the Krylo-SV launch vehicle. Specialists of JSC “EMZ named after V. M. Myasishchev” are working on the project. Flight tests of the subsonic version of the device can begin in the 2020 year. In the future, an aircraft measuring 6 meters in length and 0,8 meters in diameter will be able to fly at hypersonic speeds - up to 6 Machs. The announced dimensions are suitable for using the return accelerator along with ultra-lightweight missiles. In the future, Krylo-SV will be able to provide multiple use of the Angara 1.1 rocket variations, but for the medium and heavy version it will be necessary to create a new block of much larger size and mass. Unlike SpaceX’s American return first stage, the Russian project of the return accelerator launch stage will be able to land on airfields.


Estimated appearance of the Wing-SV project, a render of the Advanced Research Foundation


At the same time, the project is still revolving around a returnable accelerator for ultra-lightweight missiles. Therefore, experts consider Dmitry Rogozin's statement on the development of returnable stages for new Russian missiles with a fair amount of skepticism. The fact that such devices can be created in Russia is beyond doubt, for this there is already an existing backlog. However, the process of creating a returnable stage for heavy-class launch vehicles, of the same Angara-A5 rocket, if it can still be sent to mass production, will have to go a long development path to a product ready for testing.

The second breakthrough project for astronautics is called a methane fuel engine. On the whole, Angara launch vehicle already contained several very important and breakthrough ideas for the 1990's: a universal modular structure and the use of an oxygen-kerosene engine. The transition to such engines saved the Russian cosmonautics from using extremely harmful and dangerous fuels - heptyl and amyl oxidizer, which are used on Proton rockets. The use of such fuel requires expensive work to deactivate the fall zones after emergency launches. Given the fact that rockets are launched from the Baikonur cosmodrome, which remained on the territory of Kazakhstan, this causes certain problems. The fall of the Proton-M rocket in 2007 in 40 kilometers from the city of Zhezkazgan led to a serious scandal and the payment of compensation from Russia.



In this regard, the transition to new types of fuel seems justified. But now oxygen-kerosene engines are no longer at the forefront of technical thought. Of other interest is another pair: methane - oxygen. Such fuel is safer, more environmentally friendly, and most importantly, it allows you to get a larger specific impulse - about 380 seconds (heptyl-amyl provided an impulse up to 330 seconds, kerosene and oxygen - up to 350 seconds). Work on the methane engine has been underway in Russia since the 1997 of the year, we are talking about the RD-0162 rocket engine. If the work on creating a methane rocket engine can be successfully completed, it can also give a serious impetus to the development of the Angara missile project and other domestic missile systems.
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  1. Aerodrome
    Aerodrome 8 November 2019 05: 31 New
    20
    such theft is admirable ...
    1. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 8 November 2019 05: 44 New
      -9
      Yes, he and a half years they all steers! and all these troubles it all gathered for years before him. I do not protect him. it’s just what and what exactly it’s not his fault.
      1. Aerodrome
        Aerodrome 8 November 2019 05: 54 New
        18
        Quote: carstorm 11
        Yes, he and a half years they all steers! and all these troubles it all gathered for years before him. I do not protect him. it’s just what and what exactly it’s not his fault.

        and with him there was a direct "breakthrough" ... yeah ... funds were appropriated nemeryanno, the exhaust is very doubtful. it is clear that the fish is off the head ... as Comrade Stalin said: "cadres decide everything", and cadres: mudko, rogozin, skvortsova etc...
        1. carstorm 11
          carstorm 11 8 November 2019 06: 20 New
          -1
          There are objective terms at which you can require something. it's like with the president. A year and a half is not an indicator at all. under Rogozin, at least they began to purge and detentions began and all the clowns who were dead of clowns began to be attracted. it was in the last year when he started working that he announced 16 criminal cases opened and another 44 transferred to the investigation. in my opinion it was for this purge that he was sent there.
          1. Mityay65
            Mityay65 8 November 2019 06: 42 New
            10
            Quote: carstorm 11
            under Rogozin, at least they began to purge and detentions began and all the clowns who were dead of clowns began to be attracted.

            Yes. Under Rogozin there is some kind of cleaning. It could have been sharper - there is a lot of ballast. The cost of the East is clearly overstated, based on the figures that are published. It must be understood that the prosecutor’s office, the Investigative Committee, the Accounts Chamber are not in the hands of Rogozin. Other people rule there.
            Rogozin does not even have the power to influence tenders for construction contracts. These are the realities.
            And there are a lot of people who want to push all the problems of the industry onto Rogozin. Well, like, found the guilty wink
            1. Fan-fan
              Fan-fan 9 November 2019 13: 31 New
              -2
              The cost of the East is clearly overpriced,

              Mitya, and who in the government was responsible for the construction of the Vostochny spaceport, was it not Rogozin? And were there many launches from Vostochny? Yes, the East is still not completed.
              Under Rogozin there is some kind of cleaning.

              Didn't Rogozin put his son in charge of "Ilom"? And that, according to Rogozin's purge, his son was kicked out from there?
              1. Mityay65
                Mityay65 9 November 2019 19: 59 New
                +4
                It is necessary to objectively approach the issue, without hysteria and exaltation. I understand that you are a major fighter with privileges in the framework of VO, almost a revolutionary on the scale of the site, but still ... stop
                Quote: Fan-Fan
                Who in the government was responsible for the construction of the Vostochny spaceport, was it not Rogozin?

                You are able to deal with this issue yourself. Rogozin became responsible for Vostochny Pose of the approval of the project and estimates, the conduct of major tenders for construction equipment and the order of basic metal structures. At the same time, Rogozin personally did not release the situation on the brakes, but intervened in the operational management of the construction and, possibly, prevented the project from being drained or overspended. As a result, a third of the contractors changed; After that, some of the Kremlin towers tried to obstruct Rogozin in the press and on the Internet. They convinced Neprichyomkin that Rogozin was raising the wave in vain, and right now the situation is so tense ... not to a showdown, we must stick together ... recourse
                So, they found the team player Borisov.
                What does Rogozin have to do with it? Are you afraid to call another name, a fighter for justice? lol
                Rogozin is a manager, put on a failed industry, and doing more than many before him, in my subjective opinion. And most importantly, he is not afraid to rock the boat ... well, lightly so that they wouldn’t be removed right there ...
                Of course, I would like to swing it as it should. Only there will be no sense - they will immediately remove it.

                Quote: Fan-Fan
                Didn't Rogozin put his son in charge of "Il"?

                At that moment when Rogozin Jr. I came there, it was not a sinecure at all, to say the least. There was a complete collapse. And he sent a son to the post quite a raster, knowing how things are going in the design bureau ... In such positions, careers are being broken, not started. crying
                1. astepanov
                  astepanov 12 November 2019 18: 00 New
                  0
                  Quote: Mityai65
                  And he sent a son to the post quite a raster, knowing how things are going in the design bureau ...

                  Well, yes, a firing squad. And before that, a child grazed on the field of the chemical industry - without a specialized education, without working experience, but writing (with other hands) articles on chemistry, in which neither the ear nor the snout ... However, dad is a doctor of technical sciences with a diploma a philosopher, or a journalist - why is the child worse?
          2. Sling cutter
            Sling cutter 8 November 2019 09: 06 New
            11
            Quote: carstorm 11
            There are objective terms at which you can require something. it's like with the president. a year and a half is not an indicator at all

            What????? Already 20 years old! It's time to ask.
          3. U-58
            U-58 8 November 2019 10: 36 New
            +8
            Do you think you started cleaning? Hehe ..
          4. kuz363
            kuz363 8 November 2019 14: 23 New
            +1
            Well then, he had a place in the Ministry of Internal Affairs or the FSB
      2. Blackmokona
        Blackmokona 8 November 2019 11: 22 New
        -1
        The previous director of Rosskosmos was on the premises of Rogozin. Therefore, he steers there much longer
    2. Civil
      Civil 8 November 2019 07: 51 New
      +3
      DESIGN, a, iron.
      Evaluation of the intellectual activity of a person who is inclined to get involved in pipe dreams, to build unrealizable plans, which is perceived by others as a negative property of his character.

      N. S. Khrushchev made an attempt to modernize the party-state system. However, the preservation of a totalitarian regime in the country, interference in the affairs of other states, as well as political projection (calls "to catch up and overtake America!") Made his policy inconsistent (Gaz.).


      Projects - one projection.
    3. kjhg
      kjhg 8 November 2019 08: 39 New
      22
      The transformation of a leading world scientific and space power into a second-rate country will be included in history textbooks as an example of how science and space cannot be controlled. For so many years, fairy tales have told us that just about now missiles of the Angara, Rus, Yenisei rockets that have no analogues in the world will fly and God knows something else. Each new head of Roskosmos had his own favorite wife rocket. 20 years passed and what happened was to happen to the space industry and all science, while maintaining the existing control system. But you could save and increase. Yes, it’s difficult, but it was possible. Even the stars favored us. :
      - Americans abandoning shuttles
      - purchase from us of engines for their missiles
      - the purchase of Unions by Europeans for launches from the Kura Cosmodrome
      - the conclusion of most of the world's commercial launches with our missiles and much more.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. frog
        frog 8 November 2019 11: 03 New
        21
        For so many years, fairy tales have told us that just about now missiles of the Angara, Rus, Yenisei rockets that have no analogues in the world will fly and God knows something else. Each new head of Roscosmos had his own beloved wife, a rocket.

      3. Greg Miller
        Greg Miller 8 November 2019 20: 05 New
        +3
        Quote: kjhg
        The transformation of a leading world scientific and space power into a second-rate country will be included in history textbooks as an example of how science and space cannot be controlled. For so many years, fairy tales have told us that just about now missiles of the Angara, Rus, Yenisei rockets that have no analogues in the world will fly and God knows something else. Each new head of Roskosmos had his own favorite wife rocket. 20 years passed and what happened was to happen to the space industry and all science, while maintaining the existing control system. But you could save and increase. Yes, it’s difficult, but it was possible. Even the stars favored us. :
        - Americans abandoning shuttles
        - purchase from us of engines for their missiles
        - the purchase of Unions by Europeans for launches from the Kura Cosmodrome
        - the conclusion of most of the world's commercial launches with our missiles and much more.

        It will definitely be included, but only as an example of how it is NOT possible to rule the country ... For the situation in space in us is exactly the same as in all other sectors of the economy and state institutions ...
    4. Chit
      Chit 8 November 2019 12: 08 New
      16
      The author's phrase "how much it is worth trusting Rogozin's statements, readers can decide on their own" is time to knock out in granite.
      The situation in the Russian space industry is not just depressing, it is disastrous.
      For 25 years, ditching the now-unnecessary hangar project ... Plus a bunch of sawn dough ...
      It is pertinent to recall here that Musk's brainchild, SpaceX, was founded in 2002. You can argue a lot about how private this company is, but the "nine" Mask flies today. A super-heavy rocket is successfully flying, of which the state Roscosmos can only dream of it.
      And how many giggles and jokes about methane and the steps returned in our press!
      Now, it turns out, these are advanced technologies, and we need to urgently master them ...
  2. Thrifty
    Thrifty 8 November 2019 05: 55 New
    17
    And why did they brazenly lie to us when they shouted to the whole country that the Angara carrier rocket is the future of our cosmonautics, which as always has no logos in the world? Or, the money allocated for the development of obviously junk burned their hands so that it was possible and brazenly lying to the whole country? And who will be responsible for the money spent idly, and the years thrown to the wind ???
    1. Aerodrome
      Aerodrome 8 November 2019 06: 17 New
      31
      Quote: Thrifty
      And who will be responsible for the money spent idly, and the years thrown to the wind ???

      and we responded by raising the retirement age, communal services and taxes.
    2. UserGun
      UserGun 8 November 2019 08: 39 New
      18
      Quote: Thrifty
      And why did they brazenly lie to us when they shouted to the whole country that the Angara carrier rocket is the future of our cosmonautics, which as always has no logos in the world?


      But how can they not lie if the leaders of their companions are lying even bolder ?!

      “By 2020, Russians will receive an average of $ 2700 a month, have at least 100 square meters per family of three, and the middle class will comprise more than half the population. Moreover, annual inflation will drop to three percent. ”, 2008, article "In 12 years Russia will get off the" oil needle ", based on the" Concept of socio-economic development of Russia until 2020 "

      Practice shows that states where propaganda replaces the real situation do not live long. Examples of this are darkness, but the most, of course, is the history of the USSR. 70 years ... People live more than such a state.
    3. frog
      frog 8 November 2019 11: 15 New
      +8
      “The only one who can be without a specialized education in the rocket and space industry is the Director General of Roscosmos,” Rogozin said.
      Then you can see his biography (you can even in officialdom)))) and calm down.
  3. Nenie Lynn
    Nenie Lynn 8 November 2019 08: 06 New
    20
    We are waiting from the landlords for drop dead stories about which Mask is a fraudster and which projects that have no analogues in the world will give birth with the help of a trampoline Rogozmos ... what
    1. U-58
      U-58 8 November 2019 10: 55 New
      +3
      Eeeto you in vain ..
      Musk is our everything!
      And without irony.
      Right to the point:
      At one very awkward moment, NASA realized that they could not do anything quickly and cheaply. Neither Boeing, nor Lockheed nor anyone.
      All production, that is, paperwork lets any undertakings enter the pit.
      Attracted by the Mask.
      They gave him a production and testing base.
      This is to start already hoo!
      And most importantly, they freed him from all sorts of bureaucratic procedures.
      That is, in our opinion, financial discipline.
      Creating an RCT process is complex and diverse.
      And if Mask (his company) needs to change the design in the process of updating his Delta, for example, for the needs of the Ministry of Defense of USA, he will not terminate the previously concluded contracts with the said Ministry, he will not settle for new ones, carrying out coordination with hundreds of departments, commissions, committees and subcommittees, will not wait for the receipt of funds.
      Musk will simply change the designs, test and present them to the bunny in the finished form: WORKS as you wanted.
      And no one will pull him to answer him before the Congress Committee on Finances or Defense, as it is juicyly shown in Hollywood movies.
      Musk works on the principle: what do the guys need? Oh, I’ll do it tomorrow.
      Our Roskosmos from NASA differs only in the level of financing.
      But according to the bureaucracy, nothing.
      We need our own Mask.
      And we will have fse ..
      1. Blackmokona
        Blackmokona 8 November 2019 11: 27 New
        12
        The mask was not given any test base. He bought stands from a bankrupt company that, like SpaceX, was trying to rocket.
        The mask was not given to the production base, he bought an old Boeing factory that manufactured airplane models and rebuilt it into space production.
        And so on. If interested, I can tell you.
        1. U-58
          U-58 8 November 2019 11: 46 New
          -1
          Those. given to buy at a bargain price.
          Pegs in the open field did not drive ..
          1. Blackmokona
            Blackmokona 8 November 2019 12: 08 New
            +6
            Yeah, the factory of feselage you already have production facilities for engines, missiles and ships.
            And the purchase of useless stands from a bankrupt already requires permission? wassat
  4. rocket757
    rocket757 8 November 2019 08: 24 New
    0
    What is there to discuss .... we will look and wait for at least some kind of result of this process of "trampling".
  5. Ros 56
    Ros 56 8 November 2019 08: 35 New
    -4
    I propose that Beria L.P. be assigned to oversee rocket science issues. bully
    1. tesser
      tesser 8 November 2019 08: 50 New
      -2
      Quote: Ros 56
      instruct Beria L.P. to supervise issues of rocket science

      Who do we have firmer in the Caucasus? Ramzan?
    2. Sling cutter
      Sling cutter 8 November 2019 09: 02 New
      +2
      Quote: Ros 56
      I propose that Beria L.P. be assigned to oversee rocket science issues.

      And where will we go to the tramp? request
      1. Ros 56
        Ros 56 8 November 2019 09: 13 New
        +7
        Hold the broom and let Khrunichev ennoble the territory, they are your nobleness with us.
        1. Sling cutter
          Sling cutter 8 November 2019 09: 20 New
          +2
          Quote: Ros 56
          Hold the broom and let Khrunichev ennoble the territory, they are your nobleness with us.

          He had already figured out that it was necessary to build a skyscraper on the territory of Khrunichev in the form of a phallic missile, and the rest should be given for development.
          1. Ros 56
            Ros 56 8 November 2019 09: 21 New
            +3
            Well, he himself decided on where he will work as a janitor.
    3. Ros 56
      Ros 56 8 November 2019 09: 15 New
      +1
      Judging by the minuses, hooked the liberals. good
      1. Sling cutter
        Sling cutter 8 November 2019 09: 21 New
        +6
        Quote: Ros 56
        Judging by the minuses, hooked the liberals.
        Nah, it's putriots sad
    4. Tavrik
      Tavrik 8 November 2019 20: 07 New
      +1
      Beria should be appointed to be supervised by Comrade Stalin. But Stalin is the result of a revolution. So don’t wait ...
  6. Luvad
    Luvad 8 November 2019 08: 49 New
    10
    But what about the statement that returning steps is nonsense, it is not economically profitable
    Musk a swindler and blah blah blah, again rushed to catch up with decaying but not decaying Americans, but 100℅ another zilch with another cut of budget money, about which many close-minded people like to talk about America here.
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 8 November 2019 09: 47 New
      +4
      By the way, we chose an ultralight step for return. But the same Beck, whose rocket is the leader in the class, took a different path, cheaper one-time production, wide 3 printing, etc. Already 5 launches this year and 6 here in the 20 numbers. The following year, they open a site in the United States and manufacture a 1 rocket per month.
      Peter_J_Beck
      More and more rockets are coming down the production line. ~ Every 30 days a new Electron is born.



      Beginners Alpha (1t) and Beta (3t) from Svetlyachkov also went along the path of cheaper rockets. It is already justified to return the middle class missiles. There, blue electrical tape and cheaper production can already lead to a babah because of the high load. Overlapping - already gives a certain basic resource, which can be increased and returned. That is, the segment that Musk and the Chinese are now hobbling - Wing-SV will not be able to take corny.
      1. Blackmokona
        Blackmokona 9 November 2019 10: 42 New
        -4
        The guys with Electron also announced that their rocket will be reusable. Therefore, this is a general trend, regardless of the size of the launch vehicle.
    2. Doliva63
      Doliva63 8 November 2019 17: 35 New
      +2
      Quote: LuVad
      But what about the statement that returning steps is nonsense, it is not economically profitable
      Mask a swindler and blah blah blah, again rushed to catch up with decaying but not decaying Americans, but 100℅ another zilch with another cut of budget money, about which many close-minded people like to talk about America here.

      So the RF is now the same decaying, what's wrong? belay
    3. Firelake
      Firelake 10 November 2019 12: 16 New
      0
      Since 91, the desert ... but yes, we are a great power. Where and in what? Space is everything. Aviation is everything. Tanks are all. Ships? Well, that's all ...
      Show me where the breakthrough is? In raising the retirement age and taxes.
      Thanks to Putin for great Russia!
  7. Potato
    Potato 8 November 2019 08: 50 New
    -1
    People, let's not look for the guilty. Who is to blame - everyone already knows. And stop sprinkling ash on your head - you need to live on. And then drown in nagging and suffocate!

    The most important thing in the article is the phrase: moving forward and maintaining the status of an advanced space power will help us to move to a new technological level. In my opinion, this is the most important thing!

    What is needed for success in moving to a new level of space technology? These are four main factors: time, people, money and a correctly set goal, a plan according to which you can act.

    We still have time. It's good. Maybe even 10 years.

    People ... And here they are not enough. The problem is in education and in the prestige of engineering professions. Earlier they whined - oh, why so many technical universities and vocational schools? But who needs this? But opana - it turns out - it is necessary! In this situation, you yourself are to blame - citizens of the humanities - officials, lawyers, traders, speculators and the like, but very respected workers in society. Look at yourself and ask everyone for yourself - what do you really know how to do and can do modern and useful? Do not know how? Can you only outbid or use a leaky law and legal lack of knowledge of the population? Well then shut up! Space and rockets are not for you.

    Money seems to be there - budget surpluses from oil and gas and metal taxes. But it seems like they are not there. It’s not clear here. But you hold on - we give money for rockets only at a good percentage of rollback. Just like that on the technologies themselves - nevermind!

    The plan ... So, now, who will say - why do we even need these missiles and technologies? There is an excellent foreign technique that does everything we need. There is a Mask to develop rockets and fly to the Planets. Why do you, traders and drunks, why? Although I have a scientific organization, there are more tenants, shopkeepers and storehouses under the roof than laboratories and scientists. And they are violet on these your rockets and the like. An iPhone in his hands, sitting in a foreign car, listening and watching foreign culture. He only lives in Moscow and communicates in Russian. And over all these learned attempts to laugh in a voice.

    So everything is natural. There will be less missiles. You citizens have long made your choice!

    Good luck and good mood!) And God forbid you to read Soviet newspapers about missiles))) Do not twitch you like that. Health to you!
    1. Corn
      Corn 8 November 2019 13: 06 New
      +3
      Who is to blame - everyone already knows.
      A controversial statement. The people usually blame the Neodes, Jews, liberals, bad boyars and anyone else for all troubles, if only to keep away from responsibility for what is happening.
      The most important thing in the article is the phrase: to get ahead and maintain the status of an advanced space power.
      Why break out “ahead”, what are you going to do with this “leadership”, to amuse your FWM? This was true 50 years ago during the space race, but not now.
      So, now, who will say - why do we need these missiles and technologies at all?
      But they are needed in order to create products with a high extra cost. There is nothing wrong with buying foreign equipment, but if a country does not produce (no one risks producing) competitive products - this is already an indicator.
      It would seem an elementary question, but even here many have difficulties.
      You citizens have already made your choice a long time! Good luck and good mood
      And never regretted it. And all the best to you.
    2. Firelake
      Firelake 10 November 2019 12: 19 New
      0
      The issue of the elite. The USSR raised those who are in power. And he died 30 years ago. So thanks to the USSR for our current elite.
  8. Free wind
    Free wind 8 November 2019 10: 18 New
    +1
    What kind of optics do photographers have? Something is all crooked, the starting table is tilted in one direction, at the towers in the other, just do not talk about rakruses.
    1. vadimtt
      vadimtt 11 November 2019 14: 19 New
      0
      A rocket is an object with a very high aspect ratio; it does not fit into ordinary optics. So they are taking pictures of all sorts of nasty "fish-eye" bully
  9. U-58
    U-58 8 November 2019 10: 18 New
    +3
    And yet, why "Angara" ?.
    Firstly, for the last 25 years there was no alternative project.
    All of Energia's undertakings did not receive funding; were essentially rejected.
    Secondly, .... person Rogozin.
    It seems that his appointment as head of Roscosmos was not "just like that".
    A role was played by a survey of industry leaders.
    And here (my version personally) the opinion of those who are closer to Moscow played a decisive role: Varochko (Khrunichev) and Arbuzov (Energomash).
    They just solved their tasks purely.
    The head of Khrunichev - loading the enterprise with the Angara instead of the outgoing Proton, the head of Energomash - producing an engine for the Angara ...
    Deputy Prime Minister Borisov has already three times, if not more, cursed Rogozin in his desire to "distribute debts" in an effort to promote exclusively the Angara and "pushing" the theme of Soyuz-5 to the margins and closing on its base.
    As a result, they began to deal with the fifth Union ("Irtysh"), albeit with a creak.
    But on Vostochny they are starting a launch exclusively for the expensive Angara ..
    How will it all end?
    The jester knows him.
    In any case, Rogozin's loud dismissal from the post of "Skeet Chief" is very clear.
    1. slipped
      slipped 8 November 2019 12: 00 New
      0
      Horses-people mixed in a bunch, not only is the article a bunch of speculation and fakes, but also in the comments who is in the forest, who is for firewood. laughing

      Quote: U-58
      And yet, why "Angara" ?.


      Because it’s done already. And new products are coming.



      Quote: U-58
      And here (my version personally) the opinion of those who are closer to Moscow played a decisive role: Varochko (Khrunichev) and Arbuzov (Energomash).


      An old story about the "Arbuzov mafia". laughing

      Quote: U-58
      The head of Khrunichev - loading the enterprise with the Angara instead of the outgoing Proton, the head of Energomash - producing an engine for the Angara ...


      It would be somewhat strange - nothing to replace Proton, with its launch sites in another state, is not to be done and new engines are not to be produced.

      Quote: U-58
      Deputy Prime Minister Borisov has already three times, if not more, cursed Rogozin in his desire to "distribute debts" in an effort to promote exclusively the Angara and "pushing" the theme of Soyuz-5 to the margins and closing on its base.


      Again, a strange conclusion. Soyuz-5 flies on the "Arbuzov" engine RD-171MV, like the STK. And Borisov walks through the forest.

      Quote: U-58
      As a result, they began to deal with the fifth Union ("Irtysh"), albeit with a creak.


      The stage of issuing design documentation creaks in full, and at the beginning of next year they will begin ground testing.

      Quote: U-58
      But on Vostochny they are starting a launch exclusively for the expensive Angara ..


      As part of the second stage, as previously planned. The word "expensive" is best enclosed in quotation marks. All missiles are expensive on first test launches. The start for the Irtysh is planned as part of the third stage of construction.

      Quote: U-58
      How will it all end?


      Launches from the year 2023 of serial carriers. What else? lol Many satellites in production under them.

      Quote: U-58
      In any case, Rogozin's loud dismissal from the post of "Skeet Chief" is very clear.


      By whom? laughing Hamsters
      1. U-58
        U-58 8 November 2019 16: 33 New
        -1
        Thank you, you have convinced me that you can read newspapers.
        And you don’t know Borisov at all ....
        Forest (field) - it’s just he will send anyone.
        And how!
        1. slipped
          slipped 8 November 2019 17: 15 New
          +9
          Quote: U-58
          Thank you, you have convinced me that you can read newspapers.


          I also know how to hear.

          Quote: U-58
          And you don’t know Borisov at all ....
          Forest (field) - it’s just he will send anyone.
          And how!


          And they were not so scary. laughing
          1. Rusland
            Rusland 8 November 2019 17: 48 New
            +6
            That's for sure, in terms of coming and going. The thing needs to be done and not stop there. yes
        2. Rusland
          Rusland 8 November 2019 17: 38 New
          +8
          Quote: U-58
          Thank you, you have convinced me that you can read newspapers.
          And you don’t know Borisov at all ....
          Forest (field) - it’s just he will send anyone.
          And how!

          Man, but he’s definitely an expert in this matter and in business, yes what he could, then he laid out. hi .
          1. U-58
            U-58 8 November 2019 19: 22 New
            -2
            But who argues.
            Can and sleep sheet.
            But he’s not alone, my friend .... yes
            That's just a specialist will not upload a lot of things.
            There are many in the world, Horatio, such that our sages did not dream of ©
  10. prior
    prior 8 November 2019 11: 51 New
    +9
    Hoping to develop space in a colonial country is absurd.
  11. gregor6549
    gregor6549 8 November 2019 12: 46 New
    +6
    Let me repeat my old comment, which I somehow posted on the VO website regarding the delivery of one of the new Russian submarines with numerous shortcomings. I believe that this comment is also suitable for the history of missiles under consideration.

    "People, why are you all surprised? I wrote in my comments for a long time that the defense budget has become a very tasty trough for many officials (in uniform and without) industrialists and others involved in the development of this budget. And this trough did not appear yesterday and not the day before yesterday. That is, under the cries of "mattresses" cutting their budget, there is a much larger and much quieter cutting of the Russian budget.
    And this cut began with the creation of the so-called centers of scientific and technical creativity of youth at state enterprises
    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Центр_научно-технического_творчества_молодёжи
    The heads of enterprises very quickly turned these centers into converters of money allocated for the state. projects into the personal income of the management of enterprises and other persons who have nothing to do with these enterprises. Then these NTTMs were ordered to live long, tk. all these "persons" quickly learned how to launder money "earned by overwork" without the help of NTTM, and now the process of cutting the budget has reached its climax.
    Those. first, the leaders of industry research institutes, design bureaus and factories lure higher leaders (ministers, etc., right up to the President himself) with tales of some miracle of weapons, which will be created and destroyed by the enemy at the root, Then those who managed to seduce the leadership of these tales begin to imitate stormy activity, accompanied by the showing of fascinating cartoons and quite believable reports. Well, when the bitter truth about the results of offices such as "Horns and Hooves" is revealed, the newly-minted Ostap Bendery try to quietly dissolve in the blue haze of some Maldives. They, of course, find a "worthy" replacement and everything starts anew.
    So why are we surprised and why all the thunders and lightnings pour in on the second, third and other descending numbers of persons. After all, the fish rots from the head, and if the head was interested in the normal course of affairs, this whole shop could be slammed for a couple of three days. And since shop lives and thrives, then apparently the interest in the heads is very specific.
    Hence another question. Are these heads interested in crushing a very probable opponent? After all, both they and their appointees have in the camp of this adversary both sickly real estate, and bank accounts, and children at universities and colleges. Can they do it all with their own hands? I really doubt. And you? And with such doubts, the main question arises - the question of the defense capabilities of Russia, Belarus (of which I have the honor to be a citizen) and other allies. So far, the dashing guys mentioned above are more concerned about the defense capabilities of China, India, Turkey and others, selling them weapons that are not yet in service with their own aircraft and it is not known when it will appear (we do not take into account the individual samples rolled at parades and biathlon).
    Those. money is at stake again and nothing but them. And money doesn’t reach the developers and manufacturers of this weapon, and if it does, it will be in miserable amounts.
    I do not even stutter about the leak of secret technologies. One sale to Turkey of the S400 air defense system is worth something. It would be easier to sell these air defense systems directly to the "minke", as they sold them the C300 PMU air defense system in the early 90s.
    The Chinese and Hindus also sell everything that they desire to buy. And they want a lot. And without fail with technologies and no more than several samples. There are other examples, but I think it will be quite enough for those that I brought.
    And we are all horrified and surprised. What? "
  12. pack
    pack 8 November 2019 13: 08 New
    -18
    For the needs of Russia, the price of a rocket does not matter. Let at least a trillion worth - this money will still return to the economy in the form of salaries and taxes.
    And there will never be commercial launches, and in this regard, Musk is no longer a competitor to us.
    So the hangar is to be! Maybe she will fly and not every year will be, but she will.
    1. Fan-fan
      Fan-fan 9 November 2019 14: 19 New
      -1
      This is the dumbest comment on this article.
    2. Nenie Lynn
      Nenie Lynn 11 November 2019 13: 36 New
      -3
      Quote: Rudel
      For the needs of Russia, the price of a rocket does not matter. Let at least a trillion worth - this money will still return to the economy in the form of salaries and taxes.

      where will they come back from? from offshore?
      They would come back if, again, they were competitive and did not crow private orders. But the sneaky Mask could make the rocket cheaper, and now Nanokosmos sucks its paw.
  13. trophy
    trophy 8 November 2019 14: 58 New
    12
    The Soviet scientific and technical groundwork has ended, the inertia of movement has faded. The galley stood up. Repin's painting "Swam". The next part of the Marlezon ballet is Rats Fleeing the Ship. Hurray, go ahead!
    1. IS-80_RVGK2
      IS-80_RVGK2 9 November 2019 10: 31 New
      -2
      Quote: Trofim
      "The rats are fleeing the ship." Hurray, go ahead!

      Do not expect. They have already been made sufficiently clear that the Europe from Lisbon to Vladivostok that they dreamed of would not be for them. So now they are all patriots in captivity. And you punch new holes on the belt you will need them.
      1. Greenwood
        Greenwood 11 November 2019 05: 53 New
        -3
        Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
        They have already been made sufficiently clear that the Europe from Lisbon to Vladivostok that they dreamed of would not be for them.
        And, therefore, many citizens of Western countries and families have long lived there?
      2. trophy
        trophy 11 November 2019 10: 28 New
        0
        What Europe is here from before dinner? What patriots are forced? What kind of holes? What are you raving about or dreaming about? I don’t quite understand? But about the rat race, everything is quite obvious. And most of the babies and grandmothers are already there, it is only a matter of moving their own asses. But they will suck until the last second. Gentlemen at a low start, and in which case they will be there faster than their own screech. Just do not take you with you, you are deeply uninteresting to them (to put it mildly).
        1. IS-80_RVGK2
          IS-80_RVGK2 13 November 2019 18: 43 New
          -1
          Quote: Trofim
          What Europe is here from before dinner? What patriots are forced? What kind of holes? What are you raving about or dreaming about? I don’t quite understand? But about the rat race, everything is quite obvious. And most of the babies and grandmothers are already there, it is only a matter of moving their own asses. But they will suck until the last second. Gentlemen at a low start, and in which case they will be there faster than their own screech. Just do not take you with you, you are deeply uninteresting to them (to put it mildly).

          Are you recently out of suspended animation? Or just do not understand nichrome?
  14. A.TOR
    A.TOR 8 November 2019 16: 20 New
    +5
    Apparently, there will be no "Angara". Such carriers - new ones - are needed for those who plan to engage in space exploration "in a real way". What scientific interests, besides near-Earth, does Russia have? What are the advanced, multi-year programs for the exploration of planets of the solar system, deep space? The radio telescope was launched with difficulty, somehow managing to equip it with imported components.
    What is a "new" rocket for, if old ones are needed 2-3 times a year?
    1. U-58
      U-58 8 November 2019 16: 38 New
      -3
      You're right. The hangar will be needed 1-3 times a year by the military.
      Like, we will have the potential for independent access to space
      1. A.TOR
        A.TOR 8 November 2019 16: 42 New
        -1
        Can you imagine the cost of such a case, and even with, in fact, a cosmodrome "for yourself" and production, which by no means will at least break even with such a schedule?
        For the Ministry of Defense there are enough "Soyuz", for which, however, you need to build your own start.
        1. Ezekiel
          Ezekiel 8 November 2019 18: 29 New
          +2
          Quote: A.TOR
          For the Ministry of Defense there are enough "Soyuz", for which, however, you need to build your own start.

          What do you mean? For which of these "Soyuz" and where should the start be built?
          Are you aware that the development of the Angara was funded by the MO?
          1. A.TOR
            A.TOR 8 November 2019 18: 49 New
            0
            I know. You just need to understand that to contain "military" space without parallel and at least in minutes. the degree of cost-effective civic programs is extremely expensive. In the United States, up to 80% of technologies and instrumental-assembly solutions are flowing from "peaceful space" to "military". Which, by the way, are not funded "at a loss".
            It is clear that you can scratch your tongue on the subject "nothing is a pity for the defense of the country", only there is one nuance:
            - Russia a significant, very significant number of decisions on space, incl. components, received from work with foreign partners in research space programs. Currently, these opportunities have dropped below the critical minimum. It's not just about "space" electronics, which they often like to talk about. "Angara" is redundant for the Defense Ministry, as the military has been talking about for a long time. But they didn't want to listen. Later, the epiphany (or whatever happens under the caps) came. Moreover, the "Angara" has become more expensive. I'm not even talking about the mythical multi-ton modifications in terms of carrying capacity: in terms of complexity, they require, in fact, independent R&D, the cost of which will go off scale in general for the possibilities of something real for the Russian Federation.
            1. Ezekiel
              Ezekiel 9 November 2019 09: 35 New
              +1
              I asked a specific question, I repeat:
              Quote: A.TOR
              For the Ministry of Defense there are enough "Soyuz", for which, however, you need to build your own start.

              What do you mean? For which of these "Soyuz" and where should the start be built?

              Are you able to respond specifically, without verbal husks? Or will you bustle?
              P / S For some reason, it seems to me that you have never worked in the industry, it is painfully unprofessional to approach many issues.
        2. U-58
          U-58 8 November 2019 19: 27 New
          -1
          I represent
          1. A.TOR
            A.TOR 8 November 2019 19: 44 New
            -1
            It's good.
            It's bad that someone blurted out "-" to you. Well, I - "I understand" ...
            1. U-58
              U-58 8 November 2019 19: 45 New
              -1
              I do not quite understand what you mean.
              Yes, I do not need to blurt out.
              I myself observe everything, so to speak, in complicity ...
              1. A.TOR
                A.TOR 8 November 2019 19: 48 New
                -1
                I do not understand why you "-". Well, 2 people are talking, and - what?
    2. slipped
      slipped 8 November 2019 17: 10 New
      +5
      Quote: A.TOR
      Apparently, there will be no "Angara".


      Above is a photo from the workshop.

      Quote: A.TOR
      What scientific interests, except near-earth, do Russia have? What are the advanced, multi-year research programs on the planets of the solar system, deep space?


      1. Astrophysical research on space telescopes of the "Spectrum" series. The Spektr-RG observatory is now located more than a million km from Earth in a halo orbit around the L2 Lagrange point and is observing X-ray sources of the center of the galaxy with two unique telescopes, and a four-year scan of the celestial sphere will begin soon to build star maps.



      2. In the Martian landing module "Kazachok", the launch of which to Mars on the "Proton-M" rocket with the upper stage "Briz-M" is planned next summer, the next device for planetary research - the Belgian detector LaRa - is integrated.



      3. Based on the processing of the measurement data of the Russian LEND instrument at AMS LRO, maps of the mass fraction of water in the lunar matter were constructed. It has been shown that in the vicinity of the north and south lunar poles there are permafrost regions with a relatively high content of water ice, from fractions of a percent to several percent by mass.



      Continue on? lol there will be more than a hundred points.

      Quote: A.TOR
      They hardly launched the radio telescope, somehow managing to equip it with imported components.


      This is the second of four astrophysical observatories. The first one has already worked for seven and a half years and the data from it has been raked for another six years. All scientific spacecraft in the world have imported components.

      Quote: A.TOR
      What is a "new" rocket for, if old ones are needed 2-3 times a year?


      This year, five launches of the Proton-M rocket, four have already successfully flown away - three communication satellites, a commercial experimental apparatus and an astrophysical observatory have been launched, another launch is next in line - the launch of a hydrometeorological apparatus to the GSO.
      1. A.TOR
        A.TOR 8 November 2019 17: 52 New
        0
        "If I were a queen ..."
        If I had not been one of the participants - in the past - of the development of the Spectrum and a number of others, I would have admired the daring achievements with you.
        Alas, all these are just fragments, eclecticism and fragments.
        But for the "love of fatherly coffins" you, of course, "+"
        1. Ezekiel
          Ezekiel 8 November 2019 18: 36 New
          +2
          Quote: A.TOR
          Alas, all these are just fragments, eclecticism and fragments.

          I am a former participant in the development of Energy-Buran and others.
          And what, does it somehow separate us from the gray mass?
          For inappropriate scolding not on the case and outright "hating" you, of course, "-"
          1. A.TOR
            A.TOR 8 November 2019 18: 52 New
            +2
            Nothing sets us apart. I don’t see haters.
            I see a path leading the Russian cosmonautics to nowhere.
            1. slipped
              slipped 8 November 2019 21: 47 New
              +5
              Quote: A.TOR
              I see a path leading the Russian cosmonautics to nowhere.


              Seer? laughing So you do not see beyond your nose, although the facts pop under your nose. He is the creator, Spectra lol I wonder if you ask Rashid Alievich your "question about scientific interests" at the meeting, how will he look at you? laughing I would like to attend this. I hope you do not need to explain who he is. Yes?
            2. Ezekiel
              Ezekiel 9 November 2019 09: 44 New
              +1
              Quote: A.TOR
              I see a path leading the Russian cosmonautics to nowhere.

              wassat fool laughing
              Zhzhote, my friend.
  15. maden.usmanow
    maden.usmanow 8 November 2019 16: 25 New
    +5
    Stop. Stop. 2 years ago they wrote here that Musk is a swindler, and returning the steps is too expensive.
    I also remember the metaphor was about the package and soap.
    1. Doliva63
      Doliva63 8 November 2019 17: 53 New
      +7
      Quote: maden.usmanow
      Stop. Stop. 2 years ago they wrote here that Musk is a swindler, and returning the steps is too expensive.
      I also remember the metaphor was about the package and soap.

      Times are changing, manuals are changing laughing
      1. IL-18
        IL-18 8 November 2019 22: 58 New
        +4
        And that there are already published reports on the cost of work with and without returnable steps? I just found the times when the Challenger was launched. There, the accelerators were "returnable". I understand technology, experience, sensors, instrumentation, materials, and in general, everything is at a new level, it’s not easy to compare! But the figures were not reported. Again, the last launch with no returnable. I understand space, this is science, romance, progress and all that. Only I am not an expert in this area, but real figures in $, and what about taxes, etc. incl. closer to understanding Musk's process. If anyone has information on the Space X reports, please share.
        1. mvmptzna
          mvmptzna 9 November 2019 04: 41 New
          -4
          Quote: IL-18
          And what are already published reports on the cost of work with and without returnable stages?

          The question unerringly betrays the next fiery patriot and denouncer of fraudsters like Musk, with patriotic pride who does not know English.
          1. IL-18
            IL-18 9 November 2019 11: 06 New
            +2
            Well, I personally have nothing against Musk, but also idolize, as you are not going to. And the one who deceived you, calling you a representative of a "thinking" minority, give it a face, he acted, to put it mildly, incorrectly.
            1. mvmptzna
              mvmptzna 10 November 2019 12: 39 New
              -4
              Quote: IL-18
              to the one who deceived you

              They deceive or tell the truth to Russians, on TV or approved by the office "experts" from the Internet.
              I, unlike the Russians, speak English, and all that I need to know, I learn from the source. And I myself decide that from what has been said (in the case of SpaceX - on live broadcasts of press conferences) is true.
              Let the Russians continue to be proud of their ignorance of English, and study the correct opinions of Russian "experts".
              1. IL-18
                IL-18 11 November 2019 17: 07 New
                +2
                Quote: mvmptzna
                I speak English

                Stunned! "Polish Plumber"! Well, you have something to be proud of.
        2. Blackmokona
          Blackmokona 9 November 2019 10: 46 New
          -3
          SpaceX said that the restoration of a used rocket cost them much less than 50% of the cost of a new one. And this is still in old versions. In the new, they say that it’s even cheaper.
          1. IL-18
            IL-18 9 November 2019 11: 38 New
            +2
            You can declare anything. In our country, look at the reports of organizations with budget financing (even with partially budget), and you will be incredibly happy from the grace seen. And, if you dig, then it’s not very, if not sad. Multistage rockets have been launched for more than a dozen years, but only ONE Mask was puzzled during this time with the theme of reusing stages?
            I studied at school, my bosses (these are enterprises that collaborated with the school) were one of the leading space NGOs. And they raised this topic at meetings with schoolchildren back in the 80s. Schemes on the board drew. But even the USSR, with those possibilities, somehow did not - risky and costly. Yes, today we carry entire computer centers with televisions in our pockets, others even know English, and light bulbs with a tungsten filament are an anachronism. But (!): You cannot believe anyone’s word for efficiency.
            1. Blackmokona
              Blackmokona 10 November 2019 09: 23 New
              -2
              Well then, what was your question? If any answer is false for you? After all, in reports and statements can they write anything?
              1. IL-18
                IL-18 11 November 2019 16: 31 New
                +1
                Quote: BlackMokona
                can write anything?

                Even nouns of the third declension without "b"
          2. Golovan Jack
            Golovan Jack 9 November 2019 22: 28 New
            +1
            Quote: BlackMokona
            SpaceX said that

            Quote: IL-18
            You can declare anything

            Blackmokona, they answered you very correctly.
            1. Blackmokona
              Blackmokona 10 November 2019 09: 24 New
              -1
              What a delusional answer, what is the point of asking if any data is announced in advance by lies and fraud?
          3. mvmptzna
            mvmptzna 10 November 2019 12: 57 New
            -4
            Quote: BlackMokona
            SpaceX said that the restoration of a used rocket cost them much less than 50% of the cost of a new one. And this is still in old versions. In the new, they say that it’s even cheaper.

            - Exactly. This was stated at an official press conference by a woman, if I remember correctly - CFO of SpaceX (I remember exactly that from the top management). In a business environment, when Ilona, ​​for a careless tweet, was dismissed from the post of head of the Tesla board of directors, such official statements by executives of this level are the SpaceX report (by the way, what was said at the official event for recording and live broadcasting is a much better indicator than paper reports from the back of people whom I have never seen).

            But it’s useless to write something here, they don’t know English and their picture of the world consists of censored and fragmentary articles coinciding with the party line in Russian.
            1. Blackmokona
              Blackmokona 10 November 2019 13: 08 New
              -1
              This was stated by Schottwell Gwyn, president and chief operating officer of SpaceX
      2. Golovan Jack
        Golovan Jack 9 November 2019 22: 29 New
        0
        Quote: Doliva63
        Times are changing, manuals are changing

        Who are you talking about now? Your, according to my observations - does not change laughing

        I can be wrong, of course ... I do not closely monitor you repeat
  16. Saboteur Holuy
    Saboteur Holuy 8 November 2019 20: 48 New
    0
    Well, it’s already been clear for a long time that Samara is a leader, and the local university is preparing better specialists than all the numerous Moscow ones ... RCC Progress as before
  17. Ryaruav
    Ryaruav 8 November 2019 23: 08 New
    0
    the farther into the forest the louder the promises, and at all levels and in all areas
  18. mvmptzna
    mvmptzna 9 November 2019 04: 28 New
    -4
    The fact that such devices can be created in Russia is beyond doubt, for this there is already an existing backlog.

    - Yeah. 30 years have been proving to the whole world that space must be disposable and suddenly a backlog has appeared.
  19. Indifferent
    Indifferent 9 November 2019 13: 43 New
    -2
    Until Rogozin, the journalist, is replaced by a real specialist, there will be no new missiles in principle.
  20. lopuhan2006
    lopuhan2006 9 November 2019 19: 48 New
    -3
    The director of the trampoline center knows what he is doing. There, if that son will help in China to order new trampolines and shove it under his own label.
  21. Valery Nikolayevich
    Valery Nikolayevich 9 November 2019 22: 21 New
    -2
    Everything is moving towards the privatization of the space industry. It is with this that all its "failures" are connected. It is necessary to prove that private astronautics is more effective than the state on the example of Elon Musk.
    And there will also be, as with the rest of the industry of Russia, its complete elimination.
    1. Golovan Jack
      Golovan Jack 9 November 2019 22: 26 New
      0
      Quote: Valery Nikolaevich
      Everything goes to privatize the space industry

      Valery, I'm sorry, but you drive.

      Quote: Valery Nikolaevich
      It is with this that all her "failures" are connected.

      Failures - they are in the fried press. Do not read newspapers ... and, moreover, telegrams laughing

      Quote: Valery Nikolaevich
      there will be the same as with the rest of the Russian industry - its complete elimination

      Industry of the Russian Federation eliminated? You dreamed it, buddy yes
  22. Ajevgenij
    Ajevgenij 10 November 2019 14: 51 New
    -2
    He had already figured out that it was necessary to build a skyscraper on the territory of Khrunichev in the form of a phallic missile, and the rest should be given for development.

    An architectural competition was held on this territory, a completely high-quality office building won. And given the fact that the space industry is likely to die in ten years, the logical desire of the leadership to build a business center and lease it out is quite logical.
  23. Maxwrx
    Maxwrx 10 November 2019 22: 55 New
    0
    The bottom line is why the Angara does not fly and the next launches have moved away - they are completely processing the rocket. She will not fly at 23, I bet on 25 g
    And now from myself briefly:
    1. The rocket will cost like a proton
    2. The rocket is already outdated by concept (reusable are being developed by all space countries), but it’s better to finish it off already than to drop it and fly a proton for another 20 years
    3. The proton has very toxic heptyl fuel and Kazakhstan is extremely unhappy (ours are calmly poisoned) and there are protests, there is a real threat of the closure of Baikonur. Methane engines hangars look like salvation in relations with Kazakhstan.
    4. The proton accident rate of 10% - this is very, very much. Cargo insurance is about 20% of the value of the cargo (it is usually more expensive than a rocket). On foreign missiles (including Chinese) 2-5%. So a theoretically more reliable hangar can make launches really cheap. Americans sometimes launch satellites worth several billion dollars. The most expensive James Webb telescope costs about $ 10 billion, the difference in insurance will be $ 1,5 billion (!!!)
    1. Mityay65
      Mityay65 11 November 2019 15: 10 New
      0
      In the garden of elderberry and in Kiev, uncle lol
      Quote: MaxWRX
      Rocket at cost will be like a proton

      The pH itself will be more expensive - the design is optimized. Operation is much cheaper — fuel components are much cheaper to transport and operate. Kazakhstan does not need to pay multi-million fines for the environment.
      Quote: MaxWRX
      The rocket is already outdated by concept (reusable are being developed by all space countries), but it’s better to finish it off already than to drop it and fly a proton for another 20 years

      As planned, the Angara due to its modularity can change the design and functionality of each module individually. URM can be reusable or not. For each URM, fuel vapor can be changed, if necessary, and dviguny. For each workstation, even the developer and manufacturer can be changed. A hangar rocket that can be developed very deeply - this is the power of the concept of modularity. Now so far only a stage 1 car has flown. Next will be the 2nd, 3rd, etc. There will be reusability and methane ... Yes, even a loaf of jam, if necessary.
      Quote: MaxWRX
      The proton fuel has very toxic heptyl and Kazakhstan is extremely dissatisfied (ours are calmly poisoned)

      Using heptyl is certainly a crime. I would have forbidden the place of the Kazakhs 20 years ago. And at Baikonur, according to the plans of Roscosmos, there will remain only the Soyuz launch vehicle for manned flights to the ISS. Now, however, there is some ridiculous rumor about Soyuz-5 on Baikonur, but it’s not Roskosmos, it’s FPI stirring something up. Great, private initiative should be welcome. But it would be better if FPI developed a tractor-robot, for example, for agriculture, and not for launch vehicles.
      Quote: MaxWRX
      The proton accident rate of 10% - this is very, very much.

      You would have to deal with pH accident ratings and sculpt less humpback fellow
      1. Maxwrx
        Maxwrx 11 November 2019 20: 43 New
        0
        The hangar will not be reusable !!! Unsuitable rocket design + low thrust is required in order to land softly, and powerful hangar engines cannot provide this. The reusable Falcon-9 rocket has 9 engines, the hangar has 4. And when landing at the Falcon, only 1 central engine is turned on. Hangar 5 thrust the engine in the center?

        Spaceics will arrange 2 test samples of a superheavy (150 tons per DOE) fully reusable ship (cost of $ 2 million per launch). And the first suborbital jumps in the year 20. Even if they linger a lot and everything goes wrong they will finish it and by 25 g they will have a fantastic rocket. And we have a one-time hangar at a price of $ 60 million for 25 tons at NOU.
        1. Mityay65
          Mityay65 11 November 2019 23: 31 New
          0
          Quote: MaxWRX
          The hangar will not be reusable !!!

          Is this a prayer? The ritual incantation of the sect of St. Ilon? laughing
          Chur me!
          I wrote to you above that the modularity of the Angara implies the replacement of the URM of the 1st stage with completely different ones. What will be the URM of the 2nd and 3rd and subsequent stages is not yet known. The rocket will develop for many more decades.
          A lighter and cheaper design will be implemented based on reinforced composites, instead of pressed and milled wafer panels made of duralumin. This is the car of the 2nd stage.
          Probably, the issue of collector piping and the supply of fuel components to the central URM will be resolved.
          The issue of replacing kerosene with LNG has not been resolved - the economic effect is not obvious, it is better to see what happens with St. Ilon, draw conclusions and design better. Now hydrogen is falling sharply in price, they are mastering new technologies for its production from natural gas, and extraction and liquefaction plants are becoming much cheaper. It is possible that LH will ultimately defeat both LNG and kerosene. In the 80s, a hydrogen liquefaction plant for Energia-Buran cost more than $ 1 billion, even those full-weight ones. In any case, we are waiting for the pioneer of the Living God and doing better.
          The reusability of the Angara has not yet been resolved - the economic effect is not obvious. The saint, like any rational saint in our time, obscures and hides information about what operations he has to carry out after using the stage - bulkhead rocket engine, spill, burn? What else? How much does it all cost? Simple calculations show that the game is not worth the candle. It may turn out that this is all crap. We must wait for what will happen in the end of St. Ilon and go around it at the bend.
          Quote: MaxWRX
          in order to gently sit down, low thrust is needed, and powerful engines of the hangar cannot provide this

          There are many options for saving the URM-1 and URM-2 Hangars, winged, guided, parachute-mounted, rotary, with intercept in the air ... there are options. There are rocket landing options, and not one. LRE allows thrust reduction to 30% of the nominal value, due to surging of the TNA. There are installation options for installing additional low-power combustion chambers. We solve this issue on modern rocket engines without any problems.
          Quote: MaxWRX
          Spaceics will arrange 2 test samples of a superheavy (150 tons per DOE) fully reusable ship (cost of $ 2 million per launch). And the first suborbital jumps in the year 20. Even if they linger a lot and everything goes wrong they will finish it and by 25 g they will have a fantastic rocket.

          I myself am an unbeliever, but I respect any religious beliefs, including the cult of St. Ilon, although it looks a bit like Satanism stop
          The article is not about Ilon and the wet dreams of his followers.
  24. Aqr009
    Aqr009 10 November 2019 23: 42 New
    +4
    the Angara launch vehicle contained several very important and breakthrough ideas for the 1990s: a universal modular structure and the use of an oxygen-kerosene engine.

    Some kind of mysterious phrase No.
    The universal modular structure was developed in the early 1960s for missiles of the UR family (UR-500, UR-700, UR-900).
    Oxygen-kerosene engines were already on the R-7, which launched the first satellite.
  25. IL-18
    IL-18 11 November 2019 17: 09 New
    +2
    Quote: BlackMokona
    what is your question

    Are you in a position to find questions? You should contact Kashchenko, just in case.
  26. Venya Selnikov
    Venya Selnikov 12 November 2019 11: 14 New
    +1
    Quote: Mityai65
    I myself am an unbeliever, but I respect any religious beliefs, including the cult of St. Ilon, although it looks a bit like Satanism
    And what about blind faith? You can not listen at all to what Musk (or any of his offices) says, but look strictly at the affairs of his company. This is useful.
    Falcon 9 - flies, that's a fact. Moreover, it flies more often than any other launch vehicle in the world - this is also not faith, but elementary statistics. It is already certified by NASA (and in the 3rd category) and by warriors, which just allowed Mask to butt for internal (most money) contracts, squeezing out competitors on the sly. He is gaining authority by demonstrating a trouble-free series.
    There are certainly areas in which we can speculate, and not know for sure. For example, the benefits of reuse. But there one can deduce the consequences from the same facts. The reuse of the first steps is constantly growing. Saving steps has become a chore. Here the extreme launch was already the 4th use of the first stage. If reuse were not profitable for them, they would hardly have acted like that ...
    According to Starship, the same thing.
    You don’t have to listen to the Mask at all. But this project has already entered the stage of development of flight prototypes, remote controls are being tested. These are facts, even though they look innocuous. But a drop sharpens a stone.
    That's what the Mask and his team do not occupy - is the persistence in achieving their goals. Let the dates and float (and who they do not float in space?).

    ps Regarding an estimated price of 2 million for Starship. I just do not think at all that such a price will be at all. While they are buying from them for 60 million (warriors and the state understand what is more expensive) - there will be no price reduction. Starship will cost no less than Falcon 9 per kilogram of cargo until those who offer cheaper appear. But even this price allows them to routinely crush competitors. And will allow in the future.

    pps Starship just fits very well into the Starlink project, which will require massive launches on LEO. Plus, it will allow you to record into the "passing load" what other launch vehicles are pulling to the limit of their capabilities.
  27. Trigger-Happy
    Trigger-Happy 13 November 2019 11: 25 New
    -2
    While a gang of thieves and bandits will be in power, there can be no talk of any breakthroughs anywhere, well, they cannot and do not want to. We’ve been listening to the same thing for 20 years, at least something was made breakthrough in terms of technology ?, - NO and will not. How much more do you plan to listen to? We need a radical change of course, an open and competitive political system in the country. If we can do this without total destruction, then there is a chance for a positive development of the country, if not, Africa will seem like a paradise .......
  28. 75 Sergey
    75 Sergey 9 January 2020 09: 03 New
    -2
    Hmm, with the rockets we have a complete seam, we must focus on the future, not the present, otherwise we will catch up.