What should aircraft carriers and UDC do in the face of a hypersonic threat?

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Somehow I already wrote about the fact that in the United States, in the face of the already, on the threshold of hypersonic missile threat, opponents of aircraft carriers among sailors and politicians "raised their heads". Of course, in the struggle between the “aircraft carriers” and the “anti-aircraft carriers” inside the Navy and near-Maritime circles there is partly a struggle for orders, kickbacks and influence. And also a “religious” battle like the Swift “blunt points” and “pointed ones” (or, if you like, battles of fans of Intel vs. AMD or NVidia vs. ATI and many others that shook the computer world). But there is also a considerable rational grain - someone understands that aircraft carriers are losing the status of the most valuable surface ships for the United States, while someone does not want to understand this. At the same time, this problem also faces the landing forces, that is, the US Marine Corps (ILC). Can there be any solutions?






Underwater monitor M-2 British Navy and submarine "Surfuf" French Navy


Commandant Berger in touch


The new ILC commandant (commander), General David Berger, made a concept of changes in the actions of his troops. In particular, he writes in his plan that the USSR Navy already had enormous potential for long-range high-speed anti-ship missiles, but the US Navy did not plan really large landing operations where the Soviet fleet could concentrate its submarines with missiles and other means, but only there , where it was far from the main operational areas of the USSR Navy. Later, the situation has changed, and now it is changing again. And all of the above threats require a new approach. In particular, he advocated the reduction and gradual abandonment of the current large and expensive UDC, DVKD and DTD. The main unit of the ILC in operations is MAGTF - an amphibious assault carrying an air group and MEU - an expeditionary detachment of marines, a reinforced battalion of the IMS (closer to the regiment in numbers), 4 tank, 4 howitzers towed 155mm, dozens of armored vehicles. The formation consists of 1 UDC, 1 DVKD and 1 DTD, and carries 6 short takeoff attack aircraft, 11 helicopters (of which 4 attack Supercobras) and 12 Osprey convertiplanes and Drones, as well as 7 landing craft. In his opinion, these expensive ships in the current conditions may simply not reach the landing site and may be damaged or drowned.

Berger is in favor of changing the structure of the ILC and tasks, in fact, he generally advocates for a decrease in the proportion of airborne operations, because for the most part the marines simply come to the country where the local government allows them. And do not storm the unequipped shore with battle. For such operations, Berger proposes to build more much cheaper "expeditionary support vessels", built on the basis of dry cargo ships, equipped with hangars, boats and helicopter platforms. They are not so sorry to lose, and they cost less. Such ships are now being built in the USA, but their tasks are more auxiliary. He also advocates the transition to a smaller landing craft, but it is not very clear - is it something like our MDK? Or bigger?

New threats - the development of old


Aircraft carriers, aug and generally surface the fleet The United States and its allies are now threatened by the spread of perfect supersonic and the beginning of the emergence of hypersonic anti-ship missiles in the arsenal of Russia (as well as fears that something similar will appear in China and then other anti-American countries). Moreover, the range of new missiles may be even greater than even the most powerful supersonic anti-ship missiles of the previous generation, such as the P-700 Granite or P-1000 Volcano. And the time to counteract an attack of hypersonic anti-ship missiles can be measured in tens of seconds or even seconds - depending on where they find it. Yes, and what kind of opposition? There is nobody and nothing to shoot down, and this is for a long time.

Which, of course, caused the activation of the anti-avian lobby in the USA. About the fight against the order of an additional pair of aircraft carriers such as Ford, it was already written here earlier, but it was unsuccessful. However, the discussion continues.

One of the problems of an aircraft carrier is its huge size and rather high vulnerability of a ship full of fuel and ammunition. Dimensions facilitate RCC and defeat the target, and its detection. Practical aircraft carriers were not touched by the naval modern “mode” to reduce the ESR of ships by using various radio-absorbing materials, reducing the number of protruding antennas and other nodes, transferring weapons below deck (with these criteria, our first TIRKR Kirov was a serial ship, but not at all French frigate "Lafayette" or one of the candidates) and special "stealth" contours with obstruction of the sides and walls of superstructures outward, etc. Some measures to reduce EPR and other signatures on new projects are being carried out, but it should be clear to anyone that the elephant will not become much more inconspicuous for the hunter if he cuts off his tail and slightly cuts the tusks. He's just too big for that.

Correction Options


What are the possible remedies? Well, first of all, strengthening the air defense of the compound, but it can take a very long time to wait until the Americans and their allies can cope with hypersonic anti-ship missiles, when with supersonic everything is extremely difficult. This is a considerable problem for us even on land, despite the fact that the recent C-400 firing on hypersonic missile simulators (which included 5B55 missiles converted into targets of the Favorite-RM complex) were extremely successful. But hypersound is hypersonic, and we don’t know how these targets maneuvered, if we maneuvered. And the rockets will do it for sure. In any case, with the protection against these missiles, the Americans are even worse than with their creation. The options for defending electronic warfare are, of course, always good, but whether that helps is a very big question.

It would be ideal not to meddle in those areas where, say, Russian or Chinese (when such a situation appears in China weapon) submarines, surface ships and carrier aircraft hypersonic anti-ship missiles, or else avoid conflicts with such powers. But if with Russia and China, let’s say, this is possible, then the spread of new weapons around the world, including to various seemingly “convenient adversaries” for US forces and movements, will make this impossible. How common subsonic anti-ship missiles have spread, which can still be dangerous weapons, especially when used in large quantities, although they cannot be compared in terms of danger with supersonic and especially hypersonic missiles. The same light-weight anti-ship missiles are found in different ordinary guys in slippers and with a lump of kata behind their cheeks, and guys from Lebanon in well-fitted and sensible "gear", and many others. Who will give a guarantee that in 25 years the next guys in slippers will not have much more dangerous weapons for the USG Navy?

Instead of an aircraft carrier - a UAV?


One of the options offered, however, so far at the idea level, is the transformation of the aircraft carrier itself. But what? The answer lies in the carrier of reconnaissance and strike UAVs, the carrier with reduced signatures of physical fields. Both semi-submersible and low-profile ("landing" lower in the water after the adoption of ballast), and even underwater aircraft carriers are offered. More precisely, UAVs, while also equipped with silo launchers for cruise missiles. The most curious thing is that this has already happened before, on another round of the evolutionary spiral. There were also submarines carrying one or several aircraft (such as the pre-war French submarine Surkuf, which for many years remained the largest non-nuclear submarine in the world, or Japanese type I-400, British submarine monitors of type M), and projects of larger submarine aircraft carriers. For example, the American submarine nuclear carrier AN-1, designed in the 50's, capable of carrying a Boeing interceptor with an underwater displacement of 14700, with a maximum flight speed of up to M = 8, and with vertical take-off on three engines, two of which were discarded and could be reused. There was also the option of using F-3F interceptors, provided they were equipped with the same carpet-to-take-off system (this was the name for this detachable propulsion system). There were underwater carriers of shock drones. if you can call it "aircraft-shells" such as "Regulus-11" and "Regulus-1".




Halibat and Greyback submarines of the US Navy, carriers of Regulus-1 and Regulus-2 shells





Schematic representation of the nuclear submarine carrier AN-1 and its drawing





But such aircraft should have been carried by this underwater aircraft carrier


Among others, a well-known underwater military researcher, HI Sutton, proposed as an option a semi-submersible low-profile UPLA carrier with silo launchers for missiles, a longitudinal runway without an angled landing deck (similar to wartime aircraft carriers). In this case, the take-off of vehicles should not be carried out by catapults, but by a springboard. Which, in relation to aircraft carriers of the "Soviet" type, experts like to criticize - usually the farther from the deck aviationthe stronger. Deck work with aircraft on it can be fully automated, unlike catapult. In addition, take-off from a catapult from such a low ship is simply much more dangerous than a springboard. Such a ship will indeed have much smaller signatures and be a much more difficult target for missiles. One of the advantages can also be called the fact that it will certainly be cheaper than a nuclear aircraft carrier of 100 thousand tons, carrying, at the moment and in the future, only 44 fighters (plus helicopters and UAVs). Another plus of this project is that rescue helicopters are not needed.


"Low-Profile Semi-Submersible UAV Drum Carrier" by Mr. Sutton


Another issue is that, despite the progress in technology, UAVs are able to replace manned aircraft fully except in reconnaissance. With shock functions, everything is not so clear, and even in the medium term, a full-fledged replacement, most likely, will fail. And with fighter features even harder. In addition, if the devices are remotely piloted, then their command lines will be vulnerable to electronic warfare, and modern radio intelligence tools quickly detect the control channel itself and find the place where it works. And if they are autonomous, then the question arises with the reliability of controlling the grouping of devices, their resistance to electromagnetic impulse, the ability to respond to emergency situations, and so on. In addition, instead of a combat strike UAV, only the refueling tank will appear in the arsenal of the US Navy - with the X-47В they "did not succeed." And when there will be the next approach to the boom called "the creation of a shock jet carrier-based drones," is not yet clear. But, nevertheless, it can be assumed that something similar to this solution will make it possible to create an aircraft-carrying ship, which is much more resistant to modern and future threats, which can be used where these very means can drown it. And there will be an order of magnitude less potential dead on such a ship than on an aircraft carrier.

Repair method "Trishkin Kaftan"


But this is all just the suggestions of various experts. In the meantime, the court and the case, the construction of aircraft carriers of the "past war" continues. Recently, launch work has begun on the second body of aircraft carriers such as Ford - John F. Kennedy (CVN-79). On one of the two that Secretary of Defense Mattis did not want to order and was extremely reluctant to agree to build them, his temporary successor Shanahan. Moreover, the fact that this project has not solved a lot of problems, especially with electromagnetic catapults, which Trump demanded to replace with steam ones (so we'll see if his representatives from the naval and industrial aircraft carrier mafia obeyed). Now it’s already being asserted that “Gerald Ford (CVN-78) will not reach the state of readiness for operational deployment before the 2024 year. Most recently, it was about the 2022 g., Before that from the 2021 g., And even earlier this ship was introduced with pomp” fleet composition "(for show).

The repair of existing ships continues, although it is still not clear whether there will be a recharge of the core in one of the Nimitsy, or whether it will be written off.

But there are problems with the repair and recharging of the active zones. So, in early autumn, “Harry Truman” (CVN-75) could not go to sea on the planned six-month combat service. In preparing the ship for the campaign, there were serious malfunctions in the power supply system. As a result, the only naval carrier of the U.S. Navy on the East Coast got into repairs at the Newport News Shipbuilding (NNS) shipyard, a division of Huntington Ingalls Industries, in Norfolk. At the same time, NNS Vice President Chris Meiner recently said that for the repair of CVN-75 part of the components and assemblies were removed from George Washington (CVN-73), which has been under repair and recharging of the core from 2017 in the same shipyard. At the same time, the ship was recently taken out of the dry dock and planned to be put back into operation at the end of 2021, but now this period will be delayed - the nodes were removed. The mere cannibalization of ships under repair or waiting for repairs is not out of the ordinary. This happened to us too, but the fact that this is happening now with the most important ships for the US Navy is not the best signal for them. It can be seen that Trump, who claims that America is more powerful than ever, is “a little mistaken”, like with nuclear power, where he is “mistaken” exactly the opposite?

Since the end of February of the 2019 of the year, George W. Bush (CVN-77) has been undergoing major repairs in Norfolk, which was planned for a period of 28 months. But here, not everything is going smoothly - part of the brigades was taken from him to the broken Truman, which needs to have its nose blood repaired faster so as not to completely disrupt the schedule of military services. And “John Stennis” (CVN-74) was supposed to dock at all after “George Washington,” but instead they put “George W. Bush” (CVN-77). And there is a struggle over Stennis - there is a desire to refuse to recharge it and send it in such a way that sucks, that is, in fact, write off. But in any case, there is nowhere to put it and there is no one to work on it. After all, there is also the “Dwight Eisenhower” (CVN-69) on the NNS, on the 36-month cycle of technical readiness restoration.

Even if the aircraft carriers cease to be the real basis of the surface military power of the US Navy, it is unlikely that they will decrease their income from those who wish to. However, such problems are likely to be faced by any serious fleet like the “first three” fleets (USA, RF, PRC), and even by a frivolous fleet - like the Navy of poor African countries or the Navy of “non-brotherly northern Somalia”.
129 comments
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  1. +6
    2 November 2019 04: 25
    An interesting, detailed article! Conclusion - against scrap, there is no reprisal ... Modern anti-ship missiles - the death of aircraft carriers.
    1. +10
      2 November 2019 05: 43
      The trouble is that today's aircraft carriers once were not to be sunk by future missiles (promises). And angry comments too. wink
      Road spoon to dinner - Air Defense / Missile Defense also does not stand still.
      1. -5
        2 November 2019 06: 54
        torpedo Flurry 380 km / h with a nuclear warhead - this is a guaranteed death to an aircraft carrier
        1. +5
          2 November 2019 07: 02
          With the "Flurry" you still need to approach the aircraft carrier for a "pistol shot", having overcome ALL PLO lines: BPA, PLO helicopters, PLO of escort ships - and be practically inside the order. I don’t understand why the Hunter was nominated - if the development of the anti-ship missile system rushes forward, in a short period of time, the AUG may actually have problems. An effective antidote is usually created after the fact.
          1. -4
            2 November 2019 08: 56
            With the "Flurry" you still need to approach the aircraft carrier for a "pistol shot", having overcome ALL PLO lines: BPA, PLO helicopters, PLO of escort ships - and be practically inside the order.

            Varshavyanka will be able, and if still under the storm, then generally izzy .....))))
            1. +2
              2 November 2019 09: 04
              Yeah, chasing AUG ships at 20 knots. Almost only nuclear powered ships can do this
              1. 0
                2 November 2019 09: 13
                Yeah, chasing AUG ships at 20 knots

                Why chase it? )))
                Knowing in advance where the Avik will come - just wait on the spot, and that’s all)))
                1. +1
                  2 November 2019 09: 27
                  And if it changes direction - that's it, the fleet did everything I can, but failed to stop the enemy?
                2. +4
                  3 November 2019 01: 58
                  Do not forget only to ask the Americans for a map with ship rates. And then you can not wait.
                3. 0
                  4 November 2019 17: 30
                  But you, however, are a guy, moreover, spherical, so to speak ideal.
                  1. -1
                    4 November 2019 19: 34
                    But you, however, are a guy, moreover, spherical, so to speak ideal.

                    Pff .. let’s say Avik must enter the Persian Gulf, that the boat cannot wait for him there?
                    Or are you just considering a situation where an Avik is in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, and then with its planes, with a combat radius of 1000 km? ))))
              2. +2
                3 November 2019 09: 02
                in the second world, like the bearded boys, Denitsa managed to pile up the sickly deadwood of convoys that went tacks, and the speed was not more than 5 knots
              3. -2
                4 November 2019 11: 53
                Poseidon is already swimming, and is testing whether he will not choose an Aircraft Carrier or not, he will simply sink the entire fleet
            2. +2
              2 November 2019 18: 03
              Quote: lucul
              Varshavyanka will be able, and if still under the storm, then generally izzy .....))))

              The nominal speed of the AUG is approximately 24-30 nodes. And Varshavyanka, with its 20 nodes and a maximum depth of 300 meters, is not at all under the task of destroying the AUG.
              Anthei was created for this case, but now they are trying to imprison Ash-trees under it.
              But we have few Ash-trees, more precisely so far only one. Kazan on tests.
              To date, given the most effective way to fight AUGs in the OPEN OCEAN, are multipurpose fighters and bombers.
              There will be Zircon, Poseidon, then the frigates will become a threat to the mattress AUGs, since the possibility of intercepting Zircon is zero. Well, there X-50 will come up to the series, which will probably be done in the version of the RCC.
              Another question, and very important, is the formation of a satellite constellation for target designation and detection on-line, with which we now have big problems.
              But there is an opinion that, given the speeds of hyper-velocity anti-ship missiles, precise targeting is not required, but it is enough to equip the rocket with a good homing head, which could well capture the target on approach. The target at such speeds, the RCC simply does not have time to go far from the square into which the missile will be launched.
          2. +4
            2 November 2019 17: 46
            "I don't understand why the Hunter was nominated for"
            Apparently for excessive optimism on the RCC ...
            I did not minus ..! winked
          3. +1
            3 November 2019 09: 17
            the aircraft carrier still needs to be approached for a "pistol shot", ..... they came more than once, and not only for a pistol-dagger
            K-524, under the command of Protopopov, discovered the "America" ​​aircraft near Greenland. Simulating several options for torpedo attacks on an aircraft carrier, K-524 escorted it to the coast of Norway, remaining unnoticed
            K-314 is actually proportional to the belly Avik Kitty Hawk, and this Avik had a clean anti-submarine bias
            so there were cases that went down in history, but there are many that haven't gone down in history
        2. -5
          2 November 2019 07: 31
          Quote: LBaralgeen
          torpedo Flurry 380 km / h with a nuclear warhead - this is a guaranteed death to an aircraft carrier

          So did she seem to have been retired for a long time?
          1. +2
            2 November 2019 19: 26
            And for what the abyssal was mined, like nothing seditious didn’t say such a thing (la)!? ...
        3. -4
          2 November 2019 08: 46
          A barrage of 10km range, the submarine will be hit long before 10km from an aircraft carrier or another ship and it cannot maneuver ... It is already outdated.
        4. -5
          2 November 2019 09: 03
          Well, this is a bother to go the distance of a pistol shot. And anti-submarine vehicles can significantly complicate the task until the destruction of the submarine.
        5. -6
          2 November 2019 11: 52
          Quote: LBaralgeen
          torpedo Flurry 380 km / h with a nuclear warhead - this is a guaranteed death to an aircraft carrier

          A total nuclear war is a guaranteed death to humanity as a maximum, civilization as a minimum. AND? Then what? Refuse all weapons except ICBMs and Kalash guards? And anyone sneezing is vigorous with a loaf?
          1. -2
            2 November 2019 15: 12
            Is local nuclear war the death of NATO? bully
            1. +2
              2 November 2019 15: 53
              Quote: Operator
              Is local nuclear war the death of NATO?

              I don’t care about NATO. But the fact that NATO has an excess of nuclear warheads is a fact. And the fact that a no less nuclear ax will fly in response to a nuclear flurry is also a fact. As well as the fact that the result will be not only a radioactive rain in Arizona, but also fungi in Moscow.
              Nuclear strike = end to all, or almost all. But the exchange of ordinary is far from a fact. Neither Vietnam, who cuts with mattresses, nor Turkey, who shot down a plane of a nuclear power from the nuclear warhead, never met. Therefore, I appreciate those who dream of nuclear squalls as extremely dangerous loonies. Those in need of forced treatment and isolation.
              And at least get away with it, gentlemen with a leaking roof. Not a gram more adequate from this you will not.
              1. +8
                2 November 2019 17: 49
                "I appreciate those who dream of nuclear squalls as extremely dangerous psychos. Those in need of compulsory treatment."
                good good
      2. +3
        2 November 2019 08: 54
        The trouble is that today's aircraft carriers once were not to be sunk by future missiles (promises). And angry comments too.

        Clearly, for you this is all (Zircons) cartoons)))
        1. -2
          2 November 2019 09: 01
          At least, these weapons have not yet been adopted, so yes, so far they are cartoons. Well, if you think so, when the first PCRs were invented? When were the carriers supposed to die out as a class? Hypersonic weapons are not a panacea, sooner rather than later they will develop air defense systems that will be able to intercept these targets.
          1. +3
            2 November 2019 09: 15
            At least, these weapons have not yet been adopted, so yes, as long as these cartoons

            And if in a month they will be adopted - then what, eat your tie?
            About Caliber, the God-chosen ones also sang songs - cartoons and that's it ....
            1. -3
              2 November 2019 09: 31
              Quote: lucul
              And if in a month they will be adopted - then what, eat your tie?

              And if not, do you eat soaked newspaper in the soup?

              Quote: lucul
              About Caliber, the God-chosen ones also sang songs - cartoons and that's it ....

              Project 22350 frigates were also to be built under 3 dozen (the leading one was built since 2006 and only recently completed) and the Project 885 submarines were supposed to lay almost 30 (or 20), but stopped at 9 (or 7). I’m not talking about thousands of armatures. Plans are plans, but reality is completely different
              1. +10
                2 November 2019 10: 56
                The emergence of new weapons in service is inevitable. In a year, two or five or ten, but it will happen. If not Zircon, so something else. This is natural, do not try to argue.
                1. -7
                  2 November 2019 11: 49
                  As a means of protection and this is also natural, I think there is no point in arguing either. To put everything on Zircons alone is very short-sighted. Aviation is not going to retire, which means the aircraft carriers will live and ruin the life of their opponents at sea.
                  1. +7
                    2 November 2019 12: 17
                    Unlike you, I am not making a statement in the spirit of "when will we talk then." This is the first. And secondly, no one is betting on Zircons alone. However, judging by the statements of officials, it is already at the final stage of development. But the “Dagger” is completely on the experimental combat and at the moment the Americans do not have protection from it.
                    1. -8
                      2 November 2019 12: 38
                      Quote: Voyager
                      Unlike you, I am not making a statement in the spirit of "when will we talk then." This is the first.

                      But it seems to me that this is a very important clarification because the SDI was also positioned as a system of protection against ICBMs, but did not take off, not the fact that Zircona will not repeat its fate.

                      Quote: Voyager
                      And secondly, no one is betting on Zircons alone. However, judging by the statements of officials, it is already at the final stage of development.

                      Well, what else? The number of combat-ready modern nuclear submarines would not say that is great. MRA does not actually exist. On Zircons and hope. But I would be wary of official statements because, as it turned out, they can say a lot, but in reality the results are not rarely very different.

                      Quote: Voyager
                      But the “Dagger” is completely on the experimental combat and at the moment the Americans do not have protection from it.

                      With him, not everything is clear whether there is a GOS on board a rocket, its range, etc. It is possible that this is an experimental development to travel around some potential technologies for Zircon
                      1. +3
                        2 November 2019 13: 11
                        Quote: NordOst16
                        But it seems to me that this is a very important clarification because the SDI was also positioned as a system of protection against ICBMs, but did not take off, not the fact that Zircona will not repeat its fate.

                        SDI did not take off because initially it was primarily an element of propaganda, because they started talking about it at the design stage, which never came anywhere. And Zircon is primarily a weapon, which is at the stage of directly test launches and already has an auxiliary effect in the form of propaganda, but not vice versa.
                        Quote: NordOst16
                        With him, not everything is clear whether there is a GOS on board a rocket, its range, etc. It is possible that this is an experimental development to travel around some potential technologies for Zircon

                        You - not everything is clear, but the developers are very clear. And MO is also clear. Experimental developments for running in technologies do not put on pilot combat duty. They put for refinement.
                      2. -2
                        2 November 2019 14: 46
                        Quote: Voyager
                        SDI did not take off because initially it was primarily an element of propaganda, because they started talking about it at the design stage, which never came anywhere.

                        Well, we know about this now, but at that time it seemed like a not so impossible project, some experiments with X-ray lasers were worth it, mmm ...

                        Quote: Voyager
                        And Zircon is primarily a weapon, which is at the stage of directly test launches and already has an auxiliary effect in the form of propaganda, but not vice versa.

                        We know about this only from the messages of state bodies and not the fact that Zircon is almost a finished product. Again, I do not mean that this is impossible or we are all lying, but still it is worth taking information from official sources with a degree of skepticism.
                        And about the tests - if my memory serves me, then not a single successful hit of the target was shown, even at least on the final segment of the path. And, as it seems to me, if everything was successful, then we would have boasted much louder and showed videos from the test site.

                        Quote: Voyager
                        You - not everything is clear, but the developers are very clear. And MO is also clear. Experimental developments for running in technologies do not put on pilot combat duty. They put for refinement.

                        Well, I would not raise scientists to the rank of miracle workers either. But if you look at modern weapons (subsonic and supersonic anti-ship missiles) and the problems that developers face, then by extrapolating you can realize what gigantic difficulties the developers face. Now I am again doing something that I don’t really like - fortune-telling on coffee grounds, but still there are some doubts about new weapons. I do not exclude the possibility that I may be completely wrong, but still doubts gnaw at the soul.
              2. -6
                2 November 2019 11: 10
                Now the seething of local crackers will begin)))
              3. +5
                2 November 2019 17: 52
                "And if not, are you eating a soaked newspaper in your soup?"
                laughing
                Although about a tie is also interesting! ...
            2. The comment was deleted.
      3. +8
        2 November 2019 10: 54
        To sink - yes, not a fact. And it’s quite possible to disable it.
      4. -5
        2 November 2019 11: 59
        Road spoon to dinner - Air Defense / Missile Defense also does not stand still.\\

        if the aircraft carriers are guarded by air defense such as a marine modification of what the Saudis have ... then the UDC cranes ... THEY AND THE HUSSITS ARE FLOODING CAN
        1. -10
          2 November 2019 12: 39
          Well, our drones also successfully attacked our air base in Syria. So our air defense is the same holey?
          1. +5
            2 November 2019 13: 13
            To know how successful the attack was, you need to know what goals the attackers had and whether they achieved them. Are you up to date or what?
            1. -6
              2 November 2019 14: 47
              at least there were shots with damaged aircraft
      5. +6
        2 November 2019 12: 29
        Supersound has been in service for about 45 years, probably anti-ship hypersound in the Russian Federation - 2 years, what kind of future are you talking about? Yes, and you can throw a dial-up
      6. +6
        2 November 2019 12: 44
        The hypersound just arriving at this trough (even if it doesn’t damage the take-off deck into the trash or the reactor zone) will make so much noise and thunder that the crew will swim from any point of the ocean to the shore
    2. +2
      2 November 2019 09: 01
      Anything can be ...
      But I, like Ivan Vasilievich, are tormented by vague doubts ...
      Has anyone personally seen these same hypersonic missiles? So far I have seen only cartoons and performance characteristics (possible), printed on paper and posted on the Internet. I really didn't understand: how hyper are these rackets? Mach 3? For Mach 30?
      I really want to believe the Russian Defense Ministry. But after several punctures of his faith, it somehow diminished.
      1. -1
        2 November 2019 19: 04
        No doubt rockets are steering now soldier if avik enters the affected area, he will still be hit, even without hypersound! it is a matter of effort and the availability of weapons crying

        But while aviation is an important factor in victory, the aircraft carrier can’t go anywhere! His role simply changes from the main weapon to the second echelon, so to speak. Missile Carrier Comes First hi
        Everything will be decided by tactics, at first the missile carriers will sort things out among themselves, maybe Avik will be a force that will increase the chances of victory. And perhaps having exhausted the missiles, the enemy will be defeated by an Avik, advanced from the second echelon.
        1. 0
          4 November 2019 17: 26
          It may very well be that you are right, clarification, roles in the connection will most likely change in accordance with the tasks.
    3. -11
      3 November 2019 21: 09
      And how is this death induced by aircraft carriers someone can clearly explain?
      Hypersonic - means enveloped in a plasma cocoon.
      Opaque to radio waves.
      And it would be nice for the author to indicate the sources - the commander of the Marine Corps or another of the same rank voiced the concept of abandoning aircraft carriers.
      There are a lot of fantasies.
      Few facts
    4. 0
      4 November 2019 17: 25
      Prove pliz, where is the description of the photo and video recording the fighting AUG (AUS) against carriers of hyper?
  2. +1
    2 November 2019 05: 07
    Good article.
    "Floating airfield" is of course good and all, but too expensive ...
    And in the confrontation between Aviks and missile cruisers, the missile cruiser (with Zircons) is winning.
    1. -3
      2 November 2019 05: 57
      Quote: lucul
      "Floating airfield" is of course good and all,

      But at all times it is very vulnerable. combat stability of an aircraft carrier in combat use against an enemy not inferior in quality of weapons cannot be compared with the air base on land.
      That is, like everything, AUG is used for its tasks. for those where there is a risk of getting a hit, there is no other anti-ship missiles and even under the guise of a strong electronic warfare.
    2. -4
      2 November 2019 12: 33
      Quote: lucul
      And in the confrontation between Aviks and missile cruisers - while the missile cruiser wins


      "Is always"? How many times have you won?
  3. The comment was deleted.
    1. +1
      2 November 2019 06: 15
      Nobody will shoot expensive anti-ship missiles at tankers and dry cargo ships - enough missiles or torpedoes are easier for them. It’s good to distinguish a warship, especially an aircraft carrier, from a barge. And to rivet 300-500 Zircons and Caliber for each of the NATO ships and equip them with a nuclear charge (to be sure) is easier and cheaper at times than these ships to build. That's all arithmetic.
    2. -2
      2 November 2019 06: 27
      And by the way, the location of each US carrier is known and constantly monitored. I think in the event of a global conflict with Russia they will be drowned in the first place. Someone in the ocean with a zircon with a nuclear charge, someone right at the docks by Poseid, along with a deployment base and part of the coast.
      1. +3
        2 November 2019 08: 19
        first, dear, put zircons with Poseidon on carriers ... yes teach people to shoot them ...
        and then in your inflamed brain, you can at least drown AUGs in batches, at least flush New York and Seattle into the ocean ... no problem ...
      2. -5
        2 November 2019 11: 12
        Dreaming is not bad ........
    3. +2
      2 November 2019 17: 57
      "The Americans have a plan to increase the number of ships to 355"
      Yes, you can’t get into such a horde of anti-ship missiles, but you need a dozen or two for an assault, but a dozen, moreover they will probably be a shooter! ... fellow
      1. +3
        2 November 2019 18: 44
        Everything is correct, but if you look carefully, you get a completely different picture.
        So we take data from WIKI
        293 ships of them
        11 aircraft carriers
        11 landing craft
        22 landing docks
        22 cruisers
        69 destroyers
        18 coastal warships
        71 submarines
        (i.e. 224 ships)

        Of these, a third are submarines with which the PRK does not fight (only if at the port)
        Further 44 ships are just our aircraft carriers and landing ships.
        When, again, a third of them are under repair.

        We also remove 18 ships of the coastal zone.
        And we get that a really specific moment in time will be on alert from about 100 to 130 ships, which can pose a threat to us (and can be destroyed by anti-ship missiles).
        If you connect a little logic, what happens is that you need about 2-3 thousand subsonic missiles and about 300-400 hypersonic missiles (in fact, the real numbers may be different). This is to guarantee that the target channels are overloaded or not to be intercepted.
  4. KCA
    0
    2 November 2019 05: 49
    Yes, all these are wars of the old days, one "Dagger" with a TABCh with a neutron or more advanced warhead with emission of EMP will make any order blind and deaf, during the time of insight you can even sink everything that is found from the cannons from the powerful Ukrainian boats Gyurza-M
    1. KCA
      +4
      2 November 2019 06: 26
      Already someone, apparently, reacted to the word Ukrainian, I don’t remember, but painstakingly looking for laziness, I read a report of some American commission, something like 40/40/40, it was said that if the megaton was 40 400 miles above Dakota ALL US states lose power for 40 minutes, well, this is when the microprocessor could not be disabled by a single neutron or electron, and there weren’t any microprocessors, there were vacuum tubes
      1. +6
        2 November 2019 06: 52
        According to the Navy of the mattress, no one will shoot at all. This goal, in a possible war, is meaningless for the Russian Federation. If suddenly one of the Masons has a roof torn down and he decides to destroy his rich resources, the colony will be decided by an answer by the puppeteers. If we succeed and there is enough determination. Such a scenario is unlikely, they will slowly plague the population
  5. 0
    2 November 2019 06: 51
    My question is: what are the crews of such large ships doing when they are in such lengthy repairs?
    1. +3
      2 November 2019 08: 44
      to be honest ... all crap ...
      the main task of any commander in the repair is the quickest termination of this mess ...
      the daily task of any commander in the repair to organize everything so that:
      1. Do not burn or drown ...
      2. no one died, crippled ...
      3. did not get drunk, did not fight, did not run away, did not commit and did not sell ...
      4. squeeze out of rem.nomodost more than expected for less expense of awl and other nishtyakov ....
      1. -3
        2 November 2019 09: 23
        Quote: kepmor
        to be honest ... all crap ...
        the main task of any commander in the repair is the quickest termination of this mess ...
        the daily task of any commander in the repair to organize everything so that:
        1. Do not burn or drown ...
        2. no one died, crippled ...
        3. did not get drunk, did not fight, did not run away, did not commit and did not sell ...
        4. squeeze out of rem.nomodost more than expected for less expense of awl and other nishtyakov ....

        laughing good laughing
    2. -4
      2 November 2019 12: 47
      So where did the mattresses have such a large public debt!
  6. +4
    2 November 2019 07: 02
    1. The more praises to aircraft carriers, the more "enemies" are created against them ... Currently, ballistic missiles with guided warheads are declared to be a promising weapon against aircraft carriers ... But it is possible that such "anti-ship" BRs (if successful, of course ...) will be supplemented with "long-range" "torpedo boats" on hydrofoils or planing ... The use of "hybrid" (underwater surface ...) vehicles is not excluded ...
    2. The idea of ​​UAVs has already been discussed for some time ... The advantage of this idea is that these "carriers" can be relatively inexpensive and quickly converted, for example, container ships ...
    1. +2
      2 November 2019 18: 07
      "The idea of ​​UAVs has been discussed for a while ..."
      We need to tell everyone everywhere and all the time how terribly we are afraid of their aircraft carriers, and the more the aircraft carrier is, the more terrible it is for us - for example, at the sight of Ford Ford, the crews of 3 of our nuclear submarines chorus resigned ..! crying
      And let them build them more and more, more expensive, well, and the most horrific ...
      Maybe, finally, they will burst !!! wassat
  7. +8
    2 November 2019 08: 00
    It seems that the aircraft carrier will face the fate of war elephants, it seems both great and formidable, but very expensive! And we have a good proverb on this score: "Great Fyodor, yes, fool, small spool and dear!"
  8. -5
    2 November 2019 08: 32
    Wrap yourself in a sheet and slowly crawl to the cemetery. Why is it slow? And in order to avoid panic
  9. +5
    2 November 2019 08: 51
    Quote: Jerk
    Wrap yourself in a sheet and slowly crawl to the cemetery. Why is it slow? And in order to avoid panic

    And more precisely - to the dump of history)))
  10. -1
    2 November 2019 09: 07
    By the way, the author has considered a lot of interesting things - one trouble, it doesn’t fight with reality. An aircraft carrier exists at all - for concentration aviation on the theater. There is nothing to say about amphibious assault. Without mass, this landing penguins throw eggs. Therefore, 1 small aircraft carrier or MDK is a suicide bomber in the conditions of operations that the US can theoretically carry out.
    There is an option - like a mosquito fleet. MDK and small aircraft carriers - but there are many of them. But here such a thing - even a large aircraft carrier - is very expensive. And to shove it with an air wing into 10 small ones - in total there will be ANOTHER ROAD - each such small one carries its own dead weight. for every 3-4 fighter you need your own dviglo, control and coordination bodies, service staff - dead weight, in addition to the payload - actually 3-4 fighters. It will generally be prohibitive for the money!
    So what goes out - into the sheet - and to the cemetery!
  11. -1
    2 November 2019 09: 12
    As usual, they will go the simple way - achieving a greater range of their means of destruction over enemy means. Plus the development of protection in the complex. At a certain distance, the main trump card of a hyper-rocket - flying time, becomes comparable to supersonic and loses its advantage. And all over again ...
    1. -2
      2 November 2019 19: 41
      This is somehow unlikely! Missiles are already flying 1000-2500 km! Aircraft with different PTBs have a range of 1000 km. This will be either a small load or a small air group, because need refueling in the air. (USA, by the way, the tanker is testing the UAV) and these co-owners will also occupy a place. Yes, and the reaction of Avik to the situation what will happen if his plane should fly to the target for 2-3 hours! belay
      The missile covers this distance in minutes, i.e. the missile carrier is able to respond effectively to combat situations, and the Avik is wildly late wassat
  12. +2
    2 November 2019 09: 13
    There are two options, either to invent a defensive system, or to pray to the Lord before death.
  13. 0
    2 November 2019 09: 15
    But there is also a considerable rational grain - someone understands that aircraft carriers are losing the status of the most valuable surface ships for the United States, and someone does not want to understand this.

    You can immediately see the degree of objectivity of the author ... smile
  14. +4
    2 November 2019 09: 16
    I carefully read all the comments and looked at the reactions to them, so I can draw a conclusion at 9.11 MSV - there have been more admirers of American weapons and critics of Russian weapons over the past year. And it's very bad. I am sure that these include those who not only have not served in the army, but are not going to serve in it, those who do not follow foreign articles. including American publications. Well, I don't even mention "friends" from Ukraine and some from Israel.
    1. +3
      2 November 2019 09: 45
      It's even funnier to see who these adorers are. Judging by technical literacy - they are children-bulked. For example, there simply grazes a massive herd of hornless from the sect witnesses launch Teslamobile. Interest for the next news about Mask try to say a critical thread. You will immediately be explained that the dropout from the business university in Pretoria is a brilliant rocket designer, where the Queen is.
      It is depressing. Well, so-and-so unicellular - what do you do at VO? There is no article here without technical details ...
      1. -6
        2 November 2019 12: 47
        Quote: Jerk
        dropout from business university in Pretoria


        He does not have a "Business University in Pretoria" degree. There are two degrees from the University of Pennsylvania - in economics and in physics.
        1. +1
          2 November 2019 13: 28
          I said so - dropout. From one escaped, then from Canada, by the way, too ... And in Canada, he received a physics diploma supposedly in a year - a genius, his mother, nursing courses last longer))) At the same time, there is an incomprehensible leapfrog with what he is for not even passed the year))) But there is a diploma. The type of university is also Ilona - but Davydova’s value.
          1. -4
            2 November 2019 13: 40
            Quote: Jerk
            I said so - a dropout.


            You lied.

            Quote: Jerk
            From one escaped, then from Canada, by the way, too ...


            And here you also lied.

            Quote: Jerk
            But there is a diploma.


            But this is true. Only not a diploma, but two diplomas.

            Quote: Jerk
            University type also Ilona - but Davydova


            And again you are lying.
            1. +2
              2 November 2019 21: 28
              Your arguments are awesome! The main thing - YOU - the whole truth!
              https://books.google.ru/books?id=VFpoDwAAQBAJ&pg=PR162&lpg=PR162&dq=маск+два+диплома+Пенсильванского+университета&source=bl&ots=zQtbMCvWo1&sig=ACfU3U08EA6oW_qY5qqL-Xrt7XDjjd0tNQ&hl=ru&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiH3bqBk8zlAhXvwqYKHeFqDCMQ6AEwA3oECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=маск%20два%20диплома%20Пенсильванского%20университета&f=false
              What about Stanford? Who spoils like sia = high gelding? The one who fasts above blames others for this? Keep a sweetie; they are sweet for children.
              1. -3
                3 November 2019 04: 16
                Quote: Jerk
                What about Stanford?


                I have no idea. Why did you drag Stanford?
                1. -1
                  4 November 2019 15: 03
                  H-I-T-A-T-L-U-H-I-T-E-S-b. SCHOOL.
                  Jogging
                  1. -1
                    4 November 2019 20: 55
                    Funny way to get away from the answer. By the way, in the book, the link to which you gave, it is just said that Musk has diplomas from the University of Pennsylvania. Did you read it yourself?
                    1. -1
                      6 November 2019 02: 33
                      Young man, once again - to school, and learn to read. Didn’t they notice the joke about the fact that Ilona Maskovna didn’t hand over some of the items, promising that he would hand them over at Stanford? By the way, I didn’t pass, then I got a diploma WITHOUT passing these subjects ... Well, this is short
                      1. -1
                        6 November 2019 10: 19
                        Quote: Jerk
                        Young man, once again - to school, and learn to read.


                        Do you yourself know how to read or ask parents?

                        Quote: Jerk
                        Didn’t notice the joke about the fact that Ilona Maskovna didn’t hand over some objects


                        Once again, for those who have reading problems: he received diplomas. The fact that he does not meet your high standards is your problems.
  15. -9
    2 November 2019 09: 25
    Yes, that's just hypersonic anti-ship missiles have not yet been adopted and talking about their characteristics is the same as guessing on the coffee grounds.
    For it is not clear how the developers will be able to achieve greater ranges with significantly higher friction, to provide guidance at the final stage of flights, and at the same time, the missiles will penetrate the UKKS.
    Well, the last thing, the completion and production of a sufficient number of missiles can quite stretch for 10 years and by that time a jump in the effectiveness of the ship’s air defense systems is quite possible
    1. +3
      2 November 2019 19: 50
      "hypersonic anti-ship missiles have not yet been put into service and talking about their characteristics is the same as guessing on coffee grounds"
      These urya-minus-victims of the exam have been extracted more than once and not two people with an aviation USSR education explained that with given dimensions (a standard cell for onyx / calibers, at a speed of at least> more than 6 mach, the declared range of 1000 km is possible only with a quasi-ballistic trajectory, but toda will have to ask with discretion ...
      Something like this ...
      1. -4
        3 November 2019 00: 49
        It is not the formation of the USSR and the USE that is to blame, but simply a reluctance to broaden one’s horizons and think.
    2. 0
      2 November 2019 20: 17
      You all boil down to the fact that air defense orders can reflect any blow! angry but it is not even today! Today, Avik is strong because it cannot be reached, its invulnerability is built on a “long arm”, air defense orders should reflect erupted forces, and not a full-fledged attack.

      An attack, for example, from 3 of our boats is 72 granite (caliber). Do you think 5 Aegis will be repelled? As they say now: with a high degree of probability the targets will be hit.

      Missiles deprived Avik of the advantage of a long arm, he became available for attack. An attacker can always allocate so much strength that the attack would be effective. This is the problem Avik
      1. -4
        3 November 2019 00: 56
        Well, of course, I don’t speak about this issue and may be mistaken. But quite a mebe can figure it out with a hundred air defense missiles from 6-7 ships. For there is an advantage in the detection range (when anti-ship missiles fly along a high-altitude trajectory) and an advantage in the power of electronic warfare which are quite capable of disrupting the guidance of anti-ship missiles in the final section.
        Plus, the deposition of submarines due to the action of anti-submarine aircraft.

        And most importantly, the enemy will throw significant forces into the elimination of the AUG, while the enemy’s submarines will be able to work under more light conditions.
        1. -1
          3 November 2019 12: 57
          The United States is only now adopting missiles for Aegis with AGSN, which allow attacking a pack of targets, but this is the prospect of the future, albeit the closest (to produce the right amount of missiles, place them on ships and upgrade the Aegis and train crews to use it). In the meantime, Orlik has 2 radar lights, and Tikanderog 4 radar. That's all their ability to repel the attack. 8 Tikanderog is 32 goals! How to shoot down the remaining 68 missiles out of 100 declared by you? Missiles are also designed to counteract the reb, something of course misses, but something will certainly hit!
          Then, in each PCR, 2-3 zur will be issued, i.e. up to 40% of the ammunition of the entire warrant will take to repulse one attack, this is if there are no tamagaks, and if there is also a strike weapon, then the warrant after the first attack remains without the ammunition and will not survive the second attack.
          Those. in the confrontation of Avik against the missile carrier Avik loses, because at long ranges he cannot attack effectively, but is forced to only fight back. And this will ultimately lead to defeat. am
          1. -3
            3 November 2019 16: 27
            Quote: Eroma
            Orlik has 2 radar lights

            Arlik has 3 of them.

            Quote: Eroma
            8 Tikanderog is 32 goals!

            Just do not forget that in all areas of the flight the missiles are guided by the main SPY-1 radar, and the backlight radars are switched on only at the final stage of the flight, where high accuracy is needed (several seconds). So having only 3 backlight radars, in 40 seconds (about the same amount of missile flying at a supersonic wave has curved over the horizon), they are able to handle much more targets.
            Yes, the missiles themselves carry electronic warfare systems in order to disrupt the capture of missiles, but do not forget that the ships have their own electronic warfare systems, which have a power much greater than what the energy system of the missiles can afford, and the computing resources of the ships abound. So rockets will be extremely difficult to capture the target, and not go into milk.
            How many missiles are needed to inflict damage incompatible with the performance of an AUG combat mission is a very controversial issue, which more closely resembles fortune-telling on coffee grounds.
            But I still do not consider the AOG an easy target, and progress in the development of missiles will only complicate the task of our missiles.
            1. 0
              3 November 2019 21: 30
              I also do not consider the ACG an easy goal. But in a confrontation, for example, in the near future, AUG with F35, where the warrant is air defense and flat, the strike force is precisely F35, against, for example, KAG with an air defense order from Admiral frigates consisting of Nikhimov + Petya + apl also with long-range (1000+ km) PCR, in the arsenal of which under 200 supersonic, especially hypersonic PCBs, I will put on KUG. winked
              If the reb were guaranteed to reflect missile attacks, then long ago everyone would have returned back to the artillery, the electronic warfare is not omnipotent. In addition, the rap does not destroy the missiles, but leads away, after which the missile again searches for the target, in short, the AUG will be fun when there are a bunch of crazy missiles among them! laughing
              Reflecting a massive blow, the task is not alarming. In fact, it will not be reflected by the whole order but only 2-3 ships, through which the blow will go and most likely these ships will be destroyed! But the ship will not tilt out from several rockets popping up at low altitude. And at high altitudes, PCR on the supersonic sound is also not a goal for every zur! Not a single American reconnaissance SR-71 on 3 missiles was shot down, and PKR is a much more complex target.
              1. -3
                4 November 2019 10: 49
                Quote: Eroma
                KUG with an air defense order from the Admiral frigates consisting of Nikhimov + Petya + apl also with long-range (1000+ km) PCR

                If you touch the long-range RCC, then only the upgraded Onyx at 800km can be seen. As for hypersonic anti-ship missiles, I don’t believe that they will hit 1000 km (all the same, air resistance is enormous at such speeds) with the dimensions of the same Onyx and, most likely, they will fly along a ballistic trajectory, which means they will glow in advance, which partially offset the advantage by speed. As for supersonic anti-ship missiles, they can fly to the maximum range only along a combined path, which means that a significant part of the path will fly at high altitude.
                What will this mean for us? And the fact that due to the presence of AWACS aircraft (whose radars have much more energy than fighter radar), they can detect a missile attack in advance. Further, according to external target designation, the guard order will launch missiles equipped with ARLGSN, which will intercept targets at a greater distance (beyond the horizon of the ships) and at high altitude, where due to the much lower air resistance the missiles will lose their kinetic energy much more slowly. And thanks to the super-maneuverability of the anti-ship missile interceptors, it will be difficult to leave them, and most importantly, the missiles will spend fuel for performing anti-missile maneuvers (if such a function is implemented in our anti-ship missiles because the grandmother said in two), and this will force our ships to come closer to their targets.
                There is also a question about the seaworthiness of our frigates, and with maximum poppy excitement they are able to use their weapons, because destroyers still have an advantage in this, as well as in the speed of the economic course and range.
                Our KUG will not have AWACS aircraft and, most likely, will find out about a missile strike when the RCC look out from the horizon at a minimum height. And then something will play against us, not only guarding ships, but also ship aviation will take part in the attack (and this is about a hundred additional anti-ship missiles). And the interception of subsonic anti-ship missiles is not much easier than supersonic, because in the saved place where the tank would have been a supersonic missile, you can install additional electronic warfare equipment, which will complicate the interception of missile data.
                The Russian CGM will not be defenseless or unable to do anything, but the Americans will always be faster, more knowledgeable, which will allow them to keep the initiative in their hands. So it seems to me, but there is already a question of budget means and the capabilities of our scientists and engineers, as well as builders, that the Russian Navy should still have dozens of destroyers and at least three aircraft carriers.
                1. -1
                  4 November 2019 15: 24
                  You have described the benefits of AUG today. If KUG and AUG are found somewhere in the ocean due to AWACS aircraft, it is the first to find the enemy and attack it, the KAG, being unable to detect AUG, is in a losing situation negative
                  If KUG operates near the native coast, it will be supported by A50 AWACS and a bit of SU for air defense, but today the radius of defeat of the PKR 600-700km is less than the radius of action of F18! If the AUG cap does not go loose, but keeps a distance and attacks outside the radius of the PCR, then the AUG steers again recourse
                  But we are talking about the future, where, according to the developers, the PCR will still have a radius of 1400 km. And this is more than the F35 radius of action, all sorts of UAVs with a wild range of flight + satellites will fly in the air, in short, there are no problems with target designation for CAG. Then the situation changes. Everything that flies today is done with the magic word Stealth, so that there they can detect radar and how to aim too is a question. (It seems more likely that at the distant frontiers it’s possible to intercept the PCR). The altitude of the flight of the PCR at supersonic is 25-30 km, I think there will be hypersound at 50 km, it’s a ceiling for zuras, they have little energy for maneuver, so you need a few zuras to reliably hit the target. For several tens of kilometers, missiles dive to low altitudes (when diving, radar tracking seems to go astray, if there is no horizontal movement, the radar misses the target). Further stealth + interference + waves, what is there the radar will see who knows? Something like that will be beaten off, only the point is not that! If KUG and AUG mutually detect each other and have the same radius of destruction, then the time against the AUG, while he lifts the planes, the first salvo of PKR will already fly to him hi
                  Those. ACG as the main striking force simply loses in terms of the reaction time of the ACG, but in other situations, ACG force and 2-3 ACG of Russia would not hurt, I agree
    3. -1
      3 November 2019 00: 15
      Yeah. If the Zircon (weight 2 tons, speed 10 M, range 1000 km) is true, then the developers of Onyx (3,5 tons, 2,5 M, 300 km) should be publicly shot right now for obvious sabotage.
  16. +4
    2 November 2019 09: 38
    The last more or less successful use of aircraft carriers against a more or less powerful country was in Iraq more than 15 years ago, with the overwhelming superiority of the coalition and the absence of a real threat to the aircraft carrier itself.
    Libya-Syria-Afghanistan - we do not think this is neither an indicator nor an excuse for this class of ships.
    But Kim Jong-un is an indicator. And Iran to some extent.
    That is, practice itself shows a limited application. You can build frigates of the XNUMXth century - trimmed with gilding and mahogany. It will be much more beautiful and more useful, and even bring profit, not loss.
    1. -3
      3 November 2019 01: 06
      Well, what is the DPRK indicator? Is NATO expansion an indicator of the inefficiency of Russian strategic nuclear forces?
      All powers that are more or less convinced that their fleet should play an important role in maintaining balance (the United States, the United Kingdom, China and India) embody plans for the development of an aircraft carrier component, apparently from the nearness of mind.
    2. 0
      3 November 2019 01: 46
      Quote: faterdom
      The last more or less successful use of aircraft carriers


      And when was the last unsuccessful use of aircraft carriers?
  17. +5
    2 November 2019 10: 46
    Quote: lexus
    The trouble is that today's aircraft carriers once were not to be sunk by future missiles (promises).

    Aviophiles are active as always!
    The conversation is in an article about prospects, both in the near and far. And there exactly AUGs have no place.
    Unless as a heavily armed gendarme on the seas to tame the rebellious Papuans on the far shores. Moreover, this World is clearly already PostPanAmerica! ;)
    When the Russian-Chinese alliance dominates the World, they will definitely have a couple of such "sea gendarmes" to drive at least the remnants of the "deep blue" Libertarian into the Leta River ...
    1. +3
      2 November 2019 19: 53
      "When the Russian-Chinese Alliance will dominate the world"
      Dreams Dreams ...
      but + set - at least once and dreaming is not harmful ..! winked
  18. +1
    2 November 2019 11: 44
    Humble yourself and cry
  19. +3
    2 November 2019 12: 21
    The options for defending electronic warfare are, of course, always good, but whether that helps is a very big question.

    Protect your EW from an optical seeker? Good luck to the Americans
    1. +2
      3 November 2019 13: 53
      Quote: Armata T-14
      Protect your EW from an optical seeker?

      Not Americans, and not EW of course, but close ...
  20. 0
    2 November 2019 13: 32
    The idea of ​​an underwater boatman seems unrealizable to me personally in the near future - the elephant will become so big complicated and expensive terribly if you have the same raptors wing with adequate range, and if you do less UAVs, then the warning-defense radius is smaller, although the sizes are slightly reduced by 15% but also not that.
  21. +1
    2 November 2019 14: 02
    I do not quite understand the meaning of the argument. How to sink an aircraft carrier? No need to drown them, they are good! They stand quietly in Norfolk at the wall and are not going anywhere. For they can’t. The meaning of the article in the last section is that in the Atlantic, Amers have 6 aircraft carriers and ALL are malfunctioning. The newest Ford (13 billion, just in case) is trying to finish not the first year. Only the budget is sawed well ... Do not offend the wretched, not ours))))
  22. 0
    2 November 2019 14: 08
    All these arguments about the RCC and the UAG are not only uninteresting and useless, but also harmful for the Ministry of Defense. Eternal confrontation between sword and shield. Yes, they have created a hypersonic missile that frightens the striped fleet like an elephant pug. I would not even bother on this score, but, having an offensive strategy, I continued to fully build aircraft carriers and an air wing. There is a problem, which means that there will be a task to eliminate it, there will be development and implementation of air defense systems against hypersonic anti-ship missiles and a "cunning threaded bolt" against submarines with a "trash". It is a matter of time in which these systems can be implemented in metal. Yes, it will take ten years until the antidote is created. But it will be created. There will be another round with a gradual increase in overall risks for aircraft carriers. Yes, this striking power hypothetically lost its relevance for the near future in the confrontation between the "big" countries, until the shield is created, but when this shield is created, the striking power will again unfold in full force. It's like a solar eclipse - it will pass over time.
    1. 0
      2 November 2019 20: 33
      When the SHIELD is created, people will fly on flying saucers in hyperspace and the aviki will not be needed again laughing the meaning of the whole conversation: aviation is needed, but aviks are too expensive to risk them, but it is not possible to remove the risks! crying they’re thinking how to live, they’ll offer options, and you’re all about invincibility!
  23. 0
    2 November 2019 15: 10
    Thymokhins from the Outskirts and Andrei from Haifa will run right now and how they will prove twice that the commander of the US Marine Corps does not understand anything in this matter laughing
  24. -2
    2 November 2019 15: 14
    Quote: lucul
    god-chosen

    God-damned - that is, crucified God and sodomites.
  25. +4
    2 November 2019 15: 47
    What should aircraft carriers and UDC do in the face of a hypersonic threat?

    The next task is raised again. Previously, they asked what aircraft carriers should do first in the face of an atomic threat, then in the face of a missile threat, then in the face of an anti-ship missile threat. And all the same, there were means of counteraction, and not so much time passed between the appearance of the threat and the means of countering it. A solution will be found in the face of the hypersonic threat. Moreover, this is not a panacea

    Which, of course, caused the activation of the anti-avian lobby in the USA. About the fight against the order of an additional pair of aircraft carriers such as Ford, it was already written here earlier, but it was unsuccessful. However, the discussion continues.

    Any lobby appears during certain situations. We also have such groups in the Ministry of Defense. Some are for the creation and deployment of the same BZHRK - others are against. The same is true for aircraft carriers. There are also other weapon systems. If, unlike the American "showdowns", we do not hear the echoes of such "battles" - this does not mean at all that these "battles" are not being fought.

    Aircraft carriers, AUG and, in general, the surface fleet of the United States and its allies are now threatened by the proliferation of perfect supersonic and the beginning of the appearance of hypersonic anti-ship missiles in Russian armament (as well as fears that something similar will appear in China and then in other anti-American countries). Moreover, the range of the new missiles may be even greater than that of even the most powerful supersonic anti-ship missiles of the previous generation, such as the P-700 Granit or the P-1000 Vulcan ..

    And before that, the spread of supersonic anti-ship missiles did not threaten the Americans? After all, the same "Basalts", "Granites", "Volcanoes" appeared not yesterday or the day before yesterday, but decades ago. And they found the means to fend off this or that threat ...

    And the time to counteract an attack of hypersonic anti-ship missiles can be measured in tens of seconds or even seconds - depending on where they find it. Yes, and what kind of opposition? There is nobody and nothing to shoot down, and this is for a long time.

    It's not so simple as they try to imagine. there are a lot of details, many nuances that sometimes remain outside the discussion. As we usually argue. A hypersonic missile has a speed of, for example, 9M or 2,7 km / s. We simply divide the range of action by speed and get the desired time. And then we say that during this time no one will intercept anything.
    Here it is written in the test, that time can be calculated in tens of seconds. Let's count. Let the speed be 9M. A few tens of seconds, let it be 50 seconds. This means that time should be calculated in tens of seconds - the range should be about 135 km. And this is practically inside the order. The likelihood that such a launch will be made is almost zero.
    No one to shoot down? the same Americans have a SAM-type "Standard" SM-3 Block2A. Yes, it has a kinetic interceptor, which makes it impossible to intercept the same hypersonic missile flying at a marching altitude. But what prevents the modernization of this missile and "sharpening" the interception of the GZKR? Will the performance characteristics fall in terms of range and reach in height? Not critical, for it has a range of 2500, and an altitude reach of 1500 km. The speed is about 15M. And the main thing is to conclude that such a situation "for a long time" is very presumptuous. We close our eyes to the fact that the French and Americans have already conducted tests in which they intercepted cruise missiles similar to our Mosquitoes. And we sometimes continue to believe in the "indestructibility" of our missiles. But this does not happen

    What are the possible remedies? Well, first of all, strengthening the anti-aircraft defense of the compound, but it can take a very long time to wait until the Americans and their allies can cope with hypersonic anti-ship missiles, when with supersonic everything is extremely difficult.

    Well, intercepting supersonic targets has never been easy, especially if the target is going under the cover of electronic warfare. Hypersonic missiles have their pros and cons. In particular, when descending from a marching altitude, the speed will drop to supersonic. Otherwise, the process of plasma formation will be and the GOS will be powerless. To hope that the enemy will solve this problem for a long time - in advance to put himself in the position of an ostrich, whose head is in the sand.

    This is still a significant problem for us, even on land, despite the fact that the recently conducted S-400 firing at imitators of hypersonic missiles (in the role of which were missiles of the 5V55 type, converted into a target of the Favorit-RM complex) were extremely successful. But hypersound hypersound strife, and how these targets maneuvered there, if they did, we do not know. And the rockets will do it for sure ..

    The rocket will first of all be with a ramjet engine and sharp evolution is contraindicated to it because of the possible stall. On trials, firing was most likely carried out on a target, reaching at a height and hardly intensively maneuvering ...

    Quote: Hunter 2
    Conclusion - against scrap, there is no reprisal ... Modern anti-ship missiles - the death of aircraft carriers.

    There is a trick - a longer crowbar. Modern anti-ship missiles have already been the "death" of aircraft carriers for half a century.

    Quote: lucul
    Clearly, for you this is all (Zircons) cartoons)))

    But alas, Vitaly! So far, this is a purely "virtual" weapon system. At the end of this, the beginning of next year, there will be the first launches of the Zircons from a ship and a submarine. And only after the completion of all tests, it will be possible to conclude whether the "Zircon" corresponds to military weapons or is a demonstrator

    Quote: lucul
    And if in a month they will be adopted - then what, eat your tie?
    About God, the chosen ones also sang songs - cartoons and that's it ...

    In a month they will not accept. At the end of the year ONLY BEGIN tests from the carrier. EMNIP from a submarine, and next year from a surface ship (or vice versa). Depending on how the tests will go, it will become clear how "Zircon" corresponds to the specified performance characteristics. And to say that in a month they will be adopted - sorry very stupid ...

    Quote: karp4karpov
    And to rivet 300-500 Zircons and Caliber for each of the NATO ships and equip them with a nuclear charge (to be sure) is easier and cheaper at times than these ships to build. That's all arithmetic.

    You have a lot of grass. The Americans alone have about 3 hundred warships. Yes, NATO members probably have so many. Riveting 300-500 for each ship is powerful. Especially if you consider that we make about 100 "Calibers" a year. Only one ship will take 3-5 years. And if we consider that the cost of "Caliber" in 2015 was about 800 thousand dollars - the cost of those 300-500 missiles "Caliber" (it is too early to talk about the price of "Zircons", but certainly several times more expensive than "Caliber") will be from 240 to 400 million dollars. It will take a quarter of a trillion dollars just to stamp the Calibers on 600 US and NATO ships. Cheaper? And to stamp such an amount will take millennia. Fast?
    1. 0
      2 November 2019 22: 04
      You kind of literate people. All painted. recourse what solution does the us have against the attack of dozens of missiles like the P1000 Volcano? Besides avoiding entering the range of these missiles?
      Missiles increase the effective combat distance. Sailboats fought at a distance of hundreds of meters, the development of artillery increased the distance to tens of kilometers, the aircraft carrier increased it to hundreds of kilometers, making artillery useless, now rockets increase the distance to thousands of kilometers! what F35 at such distances becomes too slow a weapon, it needs 1,5 hours to get to the target, while the rocket minutes! lol Of course, Avik will be useful in certain circumstances, but in the open sea, in the presence of target designation, it is a goal and not a sword
  26. -2
    2 November 2019 16: 46
    Quote: Lannan Shi
    response to a nuclear flurry will fly at least a nuclear ax

    After the Russian nuclear attack on Europe / Arabia / Japan / AUG there will be no sense in delivering an American nuclear attack on Russia - with the exception of the US suicide, but there are no fools across the ocean.
    1. -2
      3 November 2019 05: 49
      Quote: Operator
      After the Russian nuclear attack on Europe / Arabia / Japan / AUG there will be no sense in delivering an American nuclear attack on Russia - with the exception of the US suicide, but there are no fools across the ocean.

      in fact, in Europe there is its own nuclear weapons, and not just the American one, there are also American bases with their own warehouses, vigorous loaves that will not voluntarily crawl into the cemetery, there will be enough for all megalopolises in Russia.
      1. -1
        3 November 2019 12: 44
        The question is different - are the United States ready to use nuclear weapons (where it is located) on the national territory of the Russian Federation or not (taking into account the full-scale response of the Russian Federation on your national territory)?
  27. 0
    2 November 2019 18: 22
    A good selection of historical and technical facts.
  28. +1
    2 November 2019 19: 25
    In general, the idea of ​​replacing an aircraft carrier with something is logical.

    On the one hand.
    If you look into the foreseeable future (i.e., about 30-50 years in advance), then here we have three trends that should be taken into account:
    1. The development (both in range and speed) of missile weapons in combination with the development of electronics and, accordingly, homing systems (well, and other systems). Zircon and others are only the first signs
    2. The development of unmanned systems in all environments (UAVs, underwater and surface vehicles).
    3. The exit of manned and unmanned aircraft into near space (well, or whatever it is called, that is, at altitudes from 20 to 100 km) and, accordingly, an increase in speed and range.

    On the other hand, if you look carefully, at the present stage the aircraft carrier has two main functions (purely combat), which it does better than other similar tools:
    1. Target designation (hello AWACS)
    2. Air defense warrants (aircraft cover warrants + again AWACS)

    Other functions are performed better or cheaper by other means:
    1. Impact functions - with due control and development of missiles, even now escort ships and submarines will perform better (which is already happening).
    2. PLO - this is a submarine and coastal aircraft such as Poseidon (does not take off in Avik)

    Those. in fact, it turns out that the main reason why an aircraft carrier is needed is AWACS. Everything else is just an application to it.

    Based on this, we can make a logical conclusion that aircraft carriers will not be needed. We need a CHEAP and relatively reliable means of TSU at sea.

    If unmanned systems (all) can provide the control center, and this is quite realistic, then it is quite logical to remove all impact forces from the surface under the water (or leaving them to a minimum), because 90% of ship threats are now airborne.
    Those. removing ships from the surface at once we reduce the danger of a ship from most threats.
    This is on the one hand.

    On the other hand, such a solution requires the opposing side additional efforts to counter threats, since most of the weapons will be useless. Plus, detection will also require a lot of effort.

    PS This is all without taking into account the exchange of nuclear strikes.
  29. 0
    2 November 2019 20: 12
    Is everything sad about UAV fighters? Not certainly in that way. On YouTube there is a video of a simulated air combat between an American expert pilot and an AI fighter jet. The man has lost. Moreover, for the "control" of the UAV, very limited computing power was enough. Integration of the air combat algorithm into the control system of a real aircraft is not an easy task, but it can be solved. The issues of automatic start and landing have been resolved a long time ago.
    That is, technically there is no problem in creating a UAV fighter capable of successfully conducting an air battle with manned aircraft. The issue of financing.
    1. 0
      5 November 2019 00: 12
      Quote: Mephody
      On YouTube, there is a video of simulating air combat on a simulator between an American expert pilot and an AI-controlled fighter


      No. This is not a battle with an "AI-controlled fighter", but with its software simulation. The difference is fundamental. Software simulation is PoC at best.

      Quote: Mephody
      That is, technically there is no problem in creating a UAV fighter capable of successfully conducting an air battle with manned aircraft.


      Except for one - no one has done this yet. Principal There may be no problems, but there are technical problems - the car.
      1. -2
        5 November 2019 16: 52
        You see, the most difficult thing about the combat use of an autonomous (rather than remotely piloted) UAV is software. To integrate computer-generated commands into existing digital control systems is a completely solvable task. The only question is the proper financing of this particular area of ​​work. And in the one who first rolls out the flight model, and then puts it into series.
        1. 0
          5 November 2019 20: 52
          Quote: Mephody
          You see, the most difficult thing about the combat use of an autonomous (and not remotely piloted) UAV is software


          So this software is not yet available. At best, there is his very early prototype.

          Quote: Mephody
          To integrate computer-generated commands into existing digital control systems is a completely solvable task.


          Maybe. But what makes you think that there are no technical problems?
          1. -2
            6 November 2019 21: 59
            Have you seen the video about which I spoke? Take a look. Interesting. Without going into debates about whether this can be considered an AI (I think not), I will express the obvious to me: if it is possible to simulate the actions of a fighter that defeats a living pilot of an extra class on a simulator, then such software takes place.
            What do you call technical problems? Are we talking about different things? If it is possible to build some product with the given characteristics on the basis of existing resources (developments, reserves, element base, etc.) without waiting for materials, computers, engines from these materials, etc. that do not exist at the moment, are developed, then we are not talking about technical problems, but about technical issues. The problem is to make a radar with AFAR, if you do not have the appropriate element base. Or an engine, if there are no materials that can withstand the design temperature. And to write a program if you have a working "draft" is not a problem in this terminology. The question is about priorities and funding.
            1. 0
              7 November 2019 04: 01
              Quote: Mephody
              Have you seen the video about which I spoke?


              No, you did not give a link to it. But, if it is ALPHA (https://www.longdom.org/open-access/genetic-fuzzy-based-artificial-intelligence-for-unmanned-combat-aerialvehicle-control-in-simulated-air-combat-missions- 2167-0374-1000144.pdf), then this is not even a prototype.

              Quote: Mephody
              if on the simulator it is possible to simulate the actions of a fighter that prevails over a living pilot of an extra class, then such software takes place.


              What "is"? This is not even close to the software that controls a real plane. This is the control of the "plane" from a computer game.

              Quote: Mephody
              The problem is to make a radar with AFAR, if you do not have the corresponding element base. Or an engine if there are no materials that can withstand the design temperature.


              These are not problems at all. These are statements "the problem cannot be solved" (for AFAR you do not need any special "element base", but okay).

              Quote: Mephody
              Writing a program if you have a working draft is not a problem in this terminology.


              You talk so confidently about a draft. Does it have a name, there are articles about it, or just a video on YouTube?

              Quote: Mephody
              The issue is priorities and funding.


              Firstly, you forgot such a trifle as time. Secondly, the scope of technical problems can be understood by the F-35 program - the airplane’s software has been around for 15 years, and it’s not yet ready. The hypothetical software of an unmanned fighter will be more complicated than the F-35 software.
  30. 0
    2 November 2019 22: 31
    Quote: Eroma
    You kind of literate people. All painted. recourse what solution does the us have against the attack of dozens of missiles like the P1000 Volcano? Besides avoiding entering the range of these missiles?
    Missiles increase the effective combat distance. Sailboats fought at a distance of hundreds of meters, the development of artillery increased the distance to tens of kilometers, the aircraft carrier increased it to hundreds of kilometers, making artillery useless, now rockets increase the distance to thousands of kilometers! what F35 at such distances becomes too slow a weapon, it needs 1,5 hours to get to the target, while the rocket minutes! lol Of course, Avik will be useful in certain circumstances, but in the open sea, in the presence of target designation, it is a goal and not a sword

    You see, Vadim. You can theorize endlessly. What decision will the United States have against attacking dozens of Vulcan missiles? There won't be any. We have fewer Vulcan carriers than fingers on one hand. Only "Atlanta", which were built in the amount of 4 pieces. How many running gears are now and how many will be upgraded with the replacement (or not replacement) of the main caliber, it will be possible to speak only after the first modernized one goes into operation.
    It is very difficult to say whether the Americans will be able to intercept the salvo of our cruiser, consisting of 16 missiles. Of course, one destroyer is unlikely to be able to do this and the Volcanoes will break through its air defense. But in the order of the aircraft carrier there are 4-6 such ships .. And then it is unlikely that the Volcanoes will be able to break through to the aircraft carrier (of course, all constructions only with the condition of non-use of nuclear weapons

    Missiles cannot infinitely increase the effective combat distance. There is a limit beyond which missiles are unlikely to hit a target. This problem is called target designation (external). But something must be given.
    The problem of "armor" and "projectile" ("sword" and "shield") is as old as military equipment itself. And the designers, creating this or that system, compromise.
    I agree with the examples you gave. But the F-35 isn't the last American aircraft. There will be others, in TTT, on which completely different parameters will be recorded. Now, in principle, air defense / missile defense systems are filled with anti-aircraft missiles. And their number on the same destroyers is quite large. The range may not be comparable to the range of an aircraft, but the detection system built on shipborne radars and radars on AWACS aircraft makes it possible to "push back" the detection range by almost a thousand kilometers. And for 1000 km, even a hypersonic missile will go for more than 6 minutes. There is time to aim and hit the target. Although at long ranges, this will be more difficult.
    1. -2
      5 November 2019 16: 56
      Do you really represent a non-nuclear conflict between the Russian Federation and the USA in which the destroyer order manages to repel an attack of Russian missiles from a conventional warhead? )))
      IMHO the criterion of normality of an expert can be an understanding of the impossibility of such a situation.
  31. 0
    3 November 2019 10: 59
    Quote: NordOst16
    Well, what is the DPRK indicator? Is NATO expansion an indicator of the inefficiency of Russian strategic nuclear forces?
    All powers that are more or less convinced that their fleet should play an important role in maintaining balance (the United States, the United Kingdom, China and India) embody plans for the development of an aircraft carrier component, apparently from the nearness of mind.

    Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
    And when was the last unsuccessful use of aircraft carriers?

    I’ll chew both wholesale.
    Last year's case with the DPRK is an unfortunate use case. In the DPRK, in support of the threats to the "missile Kim", as many as three expensive and "unsurpassed" AUGs were put forward, the state, which unambiguously used them to threaten to strike and bomb into the Stone Age, has conditionally eight such AUGs in reserve, all of Europe is allies (also with pair AUG), Japan, South Korea and Australia in the theater of operations.
    That is, "paws up and do not chirp," as Zheglov said about the Black Cat gang's paradigm in relation to victims.
    And the "victim" showed restraint and confidence (justified) that he could inflict unacceptable damage like these AUG, the bases of the aggressor country and its allies.
    On the other side, everyone weighed, appreciated ... and, to put it mildly, drove off slightly salty. Having made an accident in the open sea, as well as breaking one aircraft carrier, which now needs to be repaired.
    "A profitable deal," as the "businessman" Trump would optimistically estimate ... Well, so as not to embarrass either his voters or allies in the region, and throughout the world.
    In this regard, even the largest and most expensive superlinkor of the Japanese of the Second World War, which they kept secret and did not put into battle, is more useful. If the USSR had not entered the war and defeated all the more or less noticeable land forces of Japan, the Americans would still have faced this surprise, and not the fact that they would have continued to be transported like Midway. According to the layouts, they would have won anyway, but maybe not in the 45th year, and not with unconditional surrender and post-war complete control of Japan.
  32. AML
    0
    3 November 2019 20: 36
    Quote: Eroma
    You all boil down to the fact that air defense orders can reflect any blow! angry


    They all boil down to the fact that this is an American warfare order in which all the cells are loaded with anti-aircraft missiles, and in which case the anti-ship missiles instantly become loaded. Well this is the Americans, they can.
  33. 0
    4 November 2019 17: 33
    In general, the author buries the aircraft carriers, and a herd of lemmings is very far from everything as usual, claps its paws and screeches with delight .. everything, as always, is nothing new)).
  34. 0
    4 November 2019 23: 57
    Americans always knew the vulnerability of aircraft carriers, and the possibility of their use only in colonies ...... that is why Russia without colonies should sell Kuzya while it is new and focus on submarines and minesweepers. It is necessary to reduce the size of landing ships, not to build a BDK, but it’s better to do Dugongs, even the Americans already understand this
    1. +1
      5 November 2019 06: 59
      The main thing that commentators on topvar understood)
      Now it goes
  35. -1
    5 November 2019 21: 32
    Quote: Mephody
    Do you really represent a non-nuclear conflict between the Russian Federation and the USA in which the destroyer order manages to repel an attack of Russian missiles from a conventional warhead? )))
    IMHO the criterion of normality of an expert can be an understanding of the impossibility of such a situation.

    No, I can't imagine. but when a theoretical problem is posed, such as whether the Volcanoes "will break through" to the aircraft carrier or not, one has to answer from a technical, and not from a military-political point of view. Moreover, not all countries have nuclear weapons. But regional wars, where aircraft carriers are used, are quite common. So the question is posed of whether they will break through theoretically or not ...
  36. 0
    6 November 2019 11: 59
    As they said in the films - "a brick cannot give back" ....
    If all enemies are blindly deaf and dumb, then there is no escape from missiles.

    And if not - then the options are already coming ...