Military Review

The current state of China's strategic nuclear arsenal

161
Missile defense of China. Instead of creating missile defense systems of questionable effectiveness, from the beginning of the 1980's in China, they have embarked on the improvement of strategic nuclear forces capable of inflicting unacceptable damage on the enemy in any situation. Taking into account the relatively small number of Chinese ballistic missiles and their design features, the concept of "delayed retaliation" was adopted. Unlike the USSR and the United States, which relied on a “reciprocal-strike strike,” the PLA command believed that in the event of a nuclear war, the Chinese strategic nuclear forces would strike over time. This was due to the fact that the Chinese liquid ballistic missile and ballistic missile systems could not be launched immediately after receiving the command and required some time to prepare for the launch. At the same time, part of the Chinese missiles and bombers carrying nuclear bombs were in highly protected anti-nuclear shelters. After the refusal to create a national missile defense system in 1980, China took a course to reduce the vulnerability of all components of strategic nuclear forces and provide a retaliatory strike for any scenario.


The current state of China's strategic nuclear arsenal

Mobile Launchers BRDS DF-21А


In comments, devoted to the first part of the review, readers were interested in the composition of the Chinese strategic forces and their strength. To better understand what place in the defense doctrine of the People's Republic of China early missile warning systems and missile defense systems take, let us consider the state of the Chinese strategic nuclear arsenal.

DF-21 family medium-range ballistic missiles


After the DF-3 and DF-4 BRDS were put on combat duty, the next stage in the development of the Chinese strategic nuclear forces was the creation and adoption of ground mobile systems with medium-range ballistic missiles. At the end of the 1980's, the tests of the solid-fuel two-stage DF-21 two-stage BRDS were successfully completed.

The first modification of the DF-21, adopted in the 1991 year, had a range of 1700 km, with an abandoned weight of 600 kg. A missile with a launch mass near 15 t could carry one nuclear warhead with a capacity of 500 kt, with an assumed KVO of -1 km. From 1996 of the year, DF-21А began to enter the troops, with a range of destruction of 2700 km. At the beginning of the 21 century, a new modification of the DF-21С BRDS was introduced into service. An improved control system with astro correction provides a CWS up to 300 m. The missile is equipped with a monoblock warhead with a power of 90 ct. Thanks to the placement of missiles on mobile launchers of cross-country ability to provide the ability to get out from under the "disarming strike" means of air attack and ballistic missiles.


Mobile infantry fighting vehicles DF-21С


The actual number of medium-range ballistic missiles available to the PLA is not known, according to Western experts, there may be more than a hundred of them. India, Japan and a significant part of Russia are in the affected area of ​​the DF-21 IFRS. Although the Russian media regularly declare a “strategic partnership” between our countries, this does not prevent our Chinese friends from conducting exercises with the deployment of mobile missile systems in the northern regions of China.


Google Earth satellite image: DF-21A mobile launcher at 60 km northwest of Dalian, Liaoning Province


In fairness, I must say that the Chinese mobile missile systems are regularly recorded on satellite images in various parts around the perimeter of the country. Currently, the DF-21 family of ballistic missile systems are equipped with missile brigades in Kunming, Denshakh, Tonghua, Liansivan and Jianshui. In places of permanent deployment, most of the equipment is located in tunnels cut down in the rocks. According to Western researchers, these multi-kilometer tunnels are used as anti-nuclear shelters and hide mobile systems from satellite reconnaissance equipment.

After the adoption of the DF-21 IFRS, the decommissioned DF-3 and DF-4 liquid-fuel missiles were decommissioned. The solid-fuel DF-21 of the latest modifications, with a comparable firing range, compares favorably with outdated liquid-propellant missiles with increased service and operational characteristics, and, due to their high mobility, are less vulnerable to a disarming strike.

Medium range ballistic missile DF-26


In 2015, the PLA entered service with a medium-range ballistic missile DF-26. According to Pentagon experts, it occupies an intermediate position between the DF-25 IFRS and the DF-31 ICBM and is capable of hitting targets that are located up to 4000 km from the launch point.


Mobile launcher BRDS DF-26


The DF-26 ballistic missile is a development of the DF-21 ballistic missile. According to Chinese media, the modular design of the rocket allows you to vary the options for military equipment. A solid rocket is capable of delivering fusion and conventional charges to a given area.


The radius of the defeat of the BRDS DF-26


It is stated that a missile at a distance of up to 3500 km is capable of hitting moving targets, including sea ones. The new DF-26 ballistic missile is designed to destroy facilities in the Asia-Pacific region and in Europe.

Intercontinental ballistic missiles of the DF-31 family


Another strategic mobile missile system was the DF-31. According to information published in open sources, a three-stage solid-fuel ICBM with a length of 13 m, a diameter of 2,25 m and a launch mass of 42 t is equipped with an inertial guidance system. According to various estimates, the KVO is from 500 m to 1 km. The DF-31 ICBM, which entered service at the beginning of the 21 century, carries a monoblock thermonuclear warhead with a capacity of up to 2,5 Mt. In addition to the warhead, the missile is equipped with missile defense capabilities. It is believed that after receiving a command, DF-31 can start within 30 minutes. Reliably the launch range of the DF-31 is not known, but most experts are inclined to believe that it exceeds 7500 km.
In terms of casting mass, the DF-31 is close to the Topol Russian Mobile Soil Missile Complex (PGRK). But the Chinese missile is located on a towed launcher, and is significantly inferior in cross-country ability. In this regard, the Chinese missile systems move only on paved roads. An improved option was the DF-31A with an increased launch range and several warheads. The deployment of DF-31 began in the 2007 year.


Mobile ICBMs DF-31


At the military parade in Beijing, held 1 October 2019 year, were demonstrated mobile ground-based strategic missile systems DF-31AG. The improved solid-fuel rocket is located on a new eight-axle chassis, and in many ways resembles the Russian Topol complex. It is believed that the DF-31AG ICBM, known in the past as the DF-31B, is equipped with several individually guided ICBM units up to 150 m. Firing range - up to 11000 km.


Mobile ICBM DF-31AG


Like the DF-21 mobile ballistic missile defense systems, the DF-31 family of intercontinental missiles carry combat duty in rocky shelters. In the areas where rocket brigades are deployed, highways have been laid along which wheeled conveyors are able to move at maximum speed. On satellite images near the places of constant deployment, concrete platforms were discovered, from where rockets could be launched with minimal time for preparation and topographic location.


Google Earth satellite imagery: DF-31 ICBMs at the prepared launch site southeast of Haiyang City, in the Haibei Autonomous Region of Tibet


In 2009, a reference to a new Chinese solid fuel ICBM - DF-41 - appeared in open sources. According to the Western press, DF-41 can be used in a mobile soil complex, placed on railway platforms and in stationary mine launchers. The launch mass of the rocket is about 80 m, length - 21 m, diameter - 2,25 m. Firing range - up to 12000 km.


Mobile ICBMs DF-41


The DF-41 ICBM warhead has up to 10 individually guided warheads, which makes it possible to count on the successful completion of US missile defense. 1 October 2019 year on the Tiananmen Square drove 16 mobile missile systems DF-41.

Improvement of intercontinental mine-based ballistic missiles of the DF-5 family


Along with the creation of new strategic mobile solid-propellant missile systems in China, the development of heavy liquid-fired ballistic missiles of mine-based DF-5 continued.

Although the official adoption of the DF-5 ICBMs in service took place in the 1981 year, the rate of deployment of missiles on alert was very slow. ICBM DF-5 was first demonstrated in 1984 at a military parade in honor of the celebration of the 35 anniversary of the PRC.



According to freely available information, the DF-5 two-stage rocket has a launch mass of more than 180 tons. Payload weight is 3000 kg. As fuel, asymmetric dimethylhydrazine is used, and the oxidizing agent is nitrogen tetroxide. The maximum firing range is more than 11000 km. A thermonuclear missile warhead with a capacity of up to 3 Mt (according to other sources, 4-5 Mt). KVO at maximum range is 3000-3500 m. As of 1988 year, only four mines with missiles were deployed. In fact, the DF-5 ICBMs were in trial operation.

In 1993, a modernized DF-5A missile entered service, which became the first Chinese ICBM with an RGM. DF-5A ICBM curb weight is about 185 t, payload weight is 3200 kg. It can carry 4-5 warheads with a charge power of 350 kt or one megaton-class warhead. The maximum firing range with RGCH is 11000 km, in a monoblock version - 13000 km. The upgraded inertial control system ensures accuracy of hits up to 1300 - 1500 m.


Test launch ICBM DF-5 from silos


According to Chinese data from the DF-5 / 5 ICBMs, three missile brigades were equipped by the second half of the 1990's. In each brigade, 8-12 missile silos carried combat duty. Each ICBM accounted for up to a dozen false silos, which are indistinguishable from real positions in satellite images.

Despite the relatively small number, the deployment of heavy ballistic missiles finally formed the Chinese strategic nuclear forces, and made it possible for the "Second Artillery Corps" to launch nuclear missiles at targets in the United States, USSR and Europe.


ICBM DF-5B


At the military parade held on 3 on September 2015 in Beijing, an intercontinental mine-launched ballistic missile DF-5B was presented. With a take-off mass of about 190 t, the estimated firing range is 13000 km. The separable warhead of the rocket includes, according to various estimates, from 3 to 8 individual guidance units with a CVT - about 800 meters. The power of each missile warhead is 200-300 ct.



According to the US National Center for Air and Space Intelligence, in 1998, about 25 ICBMs DF-5 / 5A were deployed in China. About half of them could be started in 20 minutes after receiving the command. As of 2008, the total number of DF-5A was estimated at approximately 20 missiles. DF-5 removed from combat duty of ICBMs after conversion was used in various kinds of experiments to launch the satellite into low Earth orbit.

In January 2017, the DF-5C ICBM was launched from the Taiyuan Missile Range in Shanxi Province. According to Western sources, a missile with a launch range of 13000 km is equipped with 10 individual guidance warheads and carries numerous means of overcoming missile defense. According to Western experts, the further development of heavy liquid-propellant ballistic missiles of mine-based in the PRC is associated with the US withdrawing from the ABM treaty.

Strategic submarines


The marine component of the Chinese strategic nuclear forces is currently represented by nuclear submarines of the 094 Jin project ("Jin"). Externally, this boat resembles the Soviet submarine strategic missile cruiser project 667BDRM "Dolphin". With an underwater displacement of 12000-14000 t, the boat has a length of about 140 m. The speed of the underwater speed is up to 26 knots. Maximum immersion depth 400 m.


SSBN Ave. 094 Jin


Submarines Ave. 094 carry on 12 SLBMs of the JL-2 type (Tszyuylan-2) with a range of about 8000 km. JL-2 is a three-stage solid-fuel rocket with a monoblock warhead. The length of the rocket has been increased to 13 m, the launch weight is 42 tons. The power of the warhead is up to 1 Mt Assumptions are made about the possibility of creating a warhead with individual guidance blocks.


Google Earth satellite image: Chinese nuclear submarines in the parking lot of the Qingdao naval base, the entrance to the underground shelter is located to the right of the boats


The first submarine of the 094 Ave. was put into operation in the 2004 year. All boats of this type are based at bases in Hainan and Qingdao. According to expert estimates, the 4-5 SSBN “Jin” is in operation. The naval base in Qingdao is famous for the fact that there is a shelter for submarines, carved into the rock.


Google Earth satellite imagery: Chinese nuclear submarines parked at the Hainan Naval Base


In 2014, the new Chinese strategic nuclear submarines of type pr.094 first went on combat patrol. It was mainly carried out in the territorial waters of the PRC under the cover of surface forces. fleet and marine aviation. When located on its own shores within reach of SLBM JL-2 is Alaska and Hawaiian Islands. In the event Chinese SSBNs enter the Hawaii region, almost the entire territory of the United States is in the zone of destruction of their missiles.

At present, the 096 project is under construction in China. “Tang” (“Tang”). According to the characteristics of noise and speed, these boats should be comparable to the modernized American SSBN Ohio. The main armament of 096 Ave. is the JL-3 ballistic missile with a firing range of up to 11000 km, which will make it possible to strike at US territory while in the inland waters of the PRC. The new SLBM has a firing range of up to 11000 km, the warhead is equipped with 6-9 individually guided warheads. The new SSBN in terms of the number of warheads and their power is more than twice as large as the 094 pr. Boats equipped with JL-2 missiles. According to rough estimates, on each SSBN of the Tang type, in the future, from 144 to 216 warheads can be deployed.

Long-range bombers


The aviation part of the Chinese strategic nuclear triad, like 50 years ago, is represented by long-range bombers of the H-6 family (the Chinese version of the Tu-16). If you believe the Military Balance, then at present there are approximately 130 aircraft of the H-6A / H / M / K modifications in the PLA Air Force. However, not all of them are shock machines, the outdated bombers of the early series were converted into refueling aircraft.


H-6 cruise missile bomber


In 2011, the radically modernized H-6K entered service. This aircraft is equipped with Russian D-30KP-2 engines, and a new avionics and electronic warfare system has been introduced. The combat load increased to 12 000 kg, and the range increased from 1800 to 3000 km. N-6K capable of carrying 6 strategic cruise missiles (CR) CJ-10A. During the design of this CD, technical solutions of the Soviet X-55 were used.


Google Earth satellite image: H-6 bombers at an air base in the eastern outskirts of Xi'an


During the modernization of the N-6K, all the potential laid down in the design of the base Tu-16 was actually realized. However, an airplane whose pedigree began in the 1950 years of the last century cannot be considered modern. Although the N-6 is the main long-range bomber of the PLA Air Force, its combat radius of action, even with long-range cruise missiles, is absolutely insufficient for solving strategic tasks. A subsonic, bulky, low-maneuverable aircraft with a large EPR in the event of a real conflict with the United States or Russia will be extremely vulnerable to fighter jets and air defense systems. In this regard, China is creating a strategic bomber H-20. According to the Chinese newspaper China Daily, the new long-range bomber will have a combat radius of up to 8000 km, without refueling in the air. Its combat load will be up to 10 tons.


Long-range bomber H-20


In August 2018, China Central Television (CCTV) showed footage with the H-20 bomber on the runway of the Xi'an Aircraft Airfield. According to Chinese media, the company's specialists conducted a cycle of ground tests, during which structural elements, chassis and on-board equipment were tested. In appearance, this bomber is similar to the American B-2A. The Chinese “strategist” H-20, if adopted, could become the second-ever serial strategic bomber with stealth and flying wing technologies.

The strength of Chinese strategic nuclear forces and their development prospects


Chinese officials have never voiced data on the qualitative composition of Chinese strategic carriers and the number of nuclear warheads. Most experts who specialize in strategic arms agree that China has 90-100 ICBMs located in fixed fortified mines and mobile chassis. By types, Chinese long-range ballistic missiles are presented as follows:
- ICBM DF-5A / B - 20-25 units;
- ICBM DF-31 / 31А / AG - 50-60 units;
- MBR DF-41 - at least 16 units.

Also in the composition of the Strategic Rocket Forces of the PRC there are about a hundred DF-21 and DF-26 BMDs. Five Chinese SSBNs conducting combat patrols may have at least 50 combat units installed on JL-2 SLBMs. Considering that the DF-5В, DF-31AG and DF-41 missiles are equipped with warheads with individual guidance warheads, approximately 250-300 nuclear warheads should be deployed on ICBMs, SLBMs and IFRS. According to minimal estimates, the Chinese arsenal of long-range bomber aircraft may have 50 free-fall thermonuclear bombs and strategic cruise missiles. Thus, 300-350 nuclear charges are deployed on Chinese strategic nuclear carriers. Taking into account the fact that new ICBMs equipped with several individual guided missile launchers are being actively put into operation in China, and the delivery of new submarine missile carriers to the fleet is expected, in the next decade the Chinese strategic nuclear forces can come close in terms of qualitative and quantitative indicators to the capabilities of Russia and the United States.

To be continued ...
Author:
Articles from this series:
The history of the creation of a missile attack warning system in China
The history of the Chinese missile defense system in the 1960-1970 years
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  1. asv363
    asv363 10 November 2019 06: 21
    +7
    Thank you, an interesting assessment of the strategic potential of nuclear weapons of the PRC. In 2016, two analytical materials were released in the USA on the topic of how many AP China missiles can reach (in theory) the USA. Some analysts gave a conservative estimate of 200-250 pcs., Others - up to 1200. The last figure was clearly overstated for political purposes.
  2. Ross xnumx
    Ross xnumx 10 November 2019 06: 36
    +20
    Thanks to the author for the review of China's strategic nuclear arsenal.
    But - marginal notes.
    The pace of creation (copying) of all kinds of elements of the nuclear triad suggests two absolutely logical conclusions.
    Let's think about whether someone will conquer a territory of dubious ecological value, in the sense of reserves of natural resources: land (the soil itself, fertile, able to give birth to something), water and air with a population of one and a half billion inhabitants? I don’t know cranks living in their own house and dreaming of a “communal apartment”. Use the people of China as cheap labor? But for this one does not have to fight - it is enough to create production in this country, which has been successfully done. Only the capitalists did not take into account the Chinese mentality and high working capacity of the population, thanks to which the country turned into an economically developed power, and due to the number of population and the rate of production (creation) of weapons, it was also a dangerous enemy (in case of military operations).
    As for the armed forces of the PRC (PLA). Skepticism, based on data on the copying of Chinese industry’s best weapons from different countries, can be debunked only by the ability of these “fakes” to show practical results and some (unknown to anyone) characteristics. And the lack of experience in practical wars is not at all the fact that the armed forces of the PRC are a sham, an army of terracotta warriors. The Israeli armed forces are an example of this (as if someone did not belong to this).
    The first conclusion. The PRC is creating armed forces and offensive weapons, bearing plans for territorial expansion - it’s a bit crowded to live in mountainous conditions, when there are empty lands nearby.
    The second conclusion. China will not fight with far-off countries, especially those overseas. Therefore, to experience euphoria and bright hopes in connection with the accelerated pace of production of military equipment and weapons in this country, the Russians are not worth it.
    And expressions of curiosity, interest in “tank biathlon” and “air darts”, competitions in various types of war games, and even joint exercises are the most common tactics of reconnaissance of the potential enemy’s capabilities and forces.
    hi
    1. Alien From
      Alien From 10 November 2019 09: 52
      +5
      Absolutely fair comment. With their striking pace of development of the armed forces, we should think deeply ... the dragon is not at all simple, as it seems to many of our near-minded leaders ....
    2. abc_alex
      abc_alex 10 November 2019 10: 47
      +3
      Quote: ROSS 42
      The PRC is creating armed forces and offensive weapons, bearing plans for territorial expansion - it’s a bit crowded to live in mountainous conditions, when there are empty lands nearby.


      And again, synaphobia. Again they scare the greedy Chinese burrowing in our Far East and Siberia.
      You look at the map of China's population distribution. Most of the country is practically uninhabited. The Chinese do not even go to the relatively warm central regions, cling to the coast. Why do they need snow-covered Siberia? The Chinese are a seaside people, accustomed to a mild climate. Well, tell me, will you believe it if I tell you that the Italians are sleeping and seeing conquer Norway? wink
      If China begins expansion, then there are its southern and southwestern neighbors. Megatons of heat and light will certainly not fly from Vietnam.

      Quote: ROSS 42
      And expressions of curiosity, interest in “tank biathlon” and “air darts”, competitions in various types of war games, and even joint exercises are the most common tactics of reconnaissance of the potential enemy’s capabilities and forces.


      Or a way to create a strategic military alliance with a force capable of guaranteeing US aggression. Once again, look at the demographic map of China. Fighting a nuclear power in China is tantamount to death. A hundred or two warheads along the ocean coast and China will cease to exist as a populated country. Losses will be just colossal. And for China, fatal. There simply will be no one to populate the conquered. The Chinese are well aware of this, and therefore they chose their nuclear umbrella to leave. Chose, it seems, ours.
      1. Bongo
        10 November 2019 11: 01
        +16
        Quote: abc_alex
        And again, synaphobia. Again they scare the greedy Chinese burrowing in our Far East and Siberia.

        Living in the Far East, I personally have no "synaphobia" in the posts Ross xnumx I do not watch. Compared with Soviet times, the border with China is almost bare. A huge number of units and formations eliminated, all fortified areas destroyed. In the Far Eastern Federal District, there is a huge outflow of population to the central regions of the country.
        Quote: abc_alex
        A hundred or two warheads along the ocean coast and China will cease to exist as a populated country.

        And how many blocks does Moscow and the district need? I assure you, in the PRC, the BRDS is enough for this.
        Quote: abc_alex
        The Chinese are well aware of this, and therefore they chose their nuclear umbrella to leave. Chose, it seems, ours.

        They chose their own. China has no friends, only interests.
        1. abc_alex
          abc_alex 10 November 2019 11: 20
          +3
          Quote: Bongo
          And how many blocks does Moscow and the district need? I assure you, in the PRC, the BRDS is enough for this.


          What's the difference? If there is a scorched radioactive desert in place of the industrial center of China? They will destroy Moscow, destroy the Moscow Region. This is 16-17 million people with me inclusive. And they risk losing 24 million in Shanghai alone. And then Chongqing - 34 million, Beijing - 21 million, Tianjin - 15 million, Guangzhou and Chengdu - 14 million each, Shenzhen - 12 million, Dongguan - 11 million, Wuhan - 10 million, Shenyang - 8.

          These are only the 10 largest cities, 150+ million people will lose China in the first hours of the war. You will say that more than a billion Chinese will survive. But all these cities are the largest industrial centers. Their elimination will deprive China of its industrial potential. A hundred warheads and China from an industrial giant will again turn into a backward agrarian colony, moreover, cut off from the sea by a radioactive desert.
          1. zyablik.olga
            zyablik.olga 10 November 2019 12: 06
            +5
            Quote: abc_alex
            Who cares? If there is a scorched radioactive desert in place of the industrial center of China? They will destroy Moscow, they will destroy Moscow

            Yes, the difference is that our leadership is simply "gutsy", and they will not risk striking the PRC.
            1. abc_alex
              abc_alex 10 November 2019 12: 15
              +3
              Quote: zyablik.olga
              Yes, the difference is that our leadership is simply "gutsy", and they will not risk striking the PRC.

              And where did you get the idea that in China the leadership has a gut as thick as a main pipeline? There are also living people and they, too, live a hotian. The Russians have 1200 warheads in the strategic nuclear forces only. And there is no guarantee that some of them will be launched in China, even bypassing the will of the leadership. And here even 10% of the total amount is enough for the end of China.
              1. Bongo
                12 November 2019 12: 50
                +1
                Quote: abc_alex
                And where did you get the idea that in China the leadership has a gut as thick as a main pipeline?

                In any case, the PRC authorities do not hesitate to defend national interests, in fact, not in words they care about the welfare of the population and are really fighting the embezzlement.
                1. abc_alex
                  abc_alex 12 November 2019 22: 25
                  +1
                  Quote: Bongo
                  In any case, the PRC authorities do not hesitate to defend national interests, in fact, not in words they care about the welfare of the population and are really fighting the embezzlement.


                  This is not the same thing. Plant an official and sign the death sentence to 150 million fellow citizens and industry of their own country.
                2. 5-9
                  5-9 13 November 2019 12: 49
                  -1
                  Well, and how exactly do the PRC authorities feel free to defend national interests? Well, for example, in Africa, in the Persian Gulf? How does White Guard, pah, the Kuomintang hostile Chinese Republic of aka Taiwan relate to national interests?
                  Sly, as she herself thinks, the monkey is so far only capable of supporting Russian resolutions in the UN Security Council ...
          2. Artavazdych
            Artavazdych 17 November 2019 02: 15
            +2
            About 40 million people live in the Moscow Region. And with unofficials - and all 50, about the same as in Italy
            1. abc_alex
              abc_alex 17 November 2019 10: 42
              0
              Quote: Artavazdych
              About 40 million people live in the Moscow Region

              7 with a little according to official statistics. Where is 40?
              I’ll get better, Moscow and the region are 23-25 ​​million.
              1. Artavazdych
                Artavazdych 17 November 2019 14: 48
                +1
                7 it was in Moscow 40 years ago. Now over 12,5 million. And in the metropolitan area 17. And that is officially.
                For the whole area - 2 times.
                And another moment - if you live or are often in the capital - look at the familiar areas. Everywhere where residential buildings stood 20-30 years ago, now three times more are standing next to it. Not to mention completely new areas like Kapotney
                1. abc_alex
                  abc_alex 17 November 2019 16: 04
                  +1
                  Quote: Artavazdych
                  it was in Moscow 40 years ago. Now over 12,5 million. And in the metropolitan area 17. And that is officially.

                  Wait. Moscow from the agglomerations is not 12,5, but 15,5 million. 12,5 is Moscow without anlomeration. Officially, Moscow Region is 7 million.
                  At the same time, no one has really decided how to count the Moscow agglomeration. There are those who consider it only directly adjacent to the adm. border cities, but there are those who bring the entire MO there. Moreover, in all cases, the cities of Moscow Oblast are included in the agglomeration. Therefore, let's proceed from the official data: Moscow is within the administrative borders and Moscow Region is within them. These are 12,5 and 7 with a little. We get about 20 million people. Moreover, in the region there are up to a million, and in Moscow up to three million migrants, but who really counted them? So we get 23-25 ​​million in the whole region with migrants together.
                  Moscow and the region are not the most densely populated area ...
                  1. Artavazdych
                    Artavazdych 18 November 2019 00: 19
                    0
                    No, in the suburbs always lived as much as in Moscow itself. 7 million were in the 70s of the 20th century. So officially 25 is the minimum.
                    1. abc_alex
                      abc_alex 18 November 2019 09: 59
                      +1
                      Quote: Artavazdych
                      No, in the suburbs always lived as much as in Moscow itself. 7 million were in the 70s of the 20th century. So officially 25 is the minimum.

                      As "always" I do not know. I have only today's official statistics. But let it be 25. But not 40.
                      In any case, this is Shanghai alone.
        2. Saxahorse
          Saxahorse 10 November 2019 19: 08
          +1
          Quote: Bongo
          They chose their own. China has no friends, only interests.

          However, the Americans do not even hide that in the event of a conflict with the Russian Federation, a nuclear strike on China will be dealt automatically. Just in case.

          The Chinese also know about this.
          1. zyablik.olga
            zyablik.olga 11 November 2019 01: 35
            +4
            Quote: Saxahorse
            However, the Americans do not even hide that in the event of a conflict with the Russian Federation, a nuclear strike on China will be dealt automatically. Just in case.

            Where can I read more about this?
            1. Saxahorse
              Saxahorse 11 November 2019 21: 52
              0
              Quote: zyablik.olga
              Where can I read more about this?

              Where a lot, it's not a secret for a long time. Many plans were declassified upon expiration of storage in the United States. For example, here is a short article:

              Armies and Wars / Military Review
              Author: - Shane Quinn Translated by Sergey Dukhanov. June 9. 2019 "3rd World War: the United States plans to launch a nuclear strike against the USSR and China since 1961"

              "svpressa.ru/war21/article/235062/"

              In 1961, every city in the USSR, with 25000 or more people, was marked for destruction with the use of nuclear weapons ... The Pentagon's military plans also included the destruction of every Chinese city. There were less than half of the Soviet Union in China, and therefore it could be attack in droves faster ..


              Communist China, the fourth largest (S.D. territory) country in the world, should have been attacked simultaneously with the Soviet Union. After 1950, this stratagem firmly entered American plans for nuclear conflict, and war planners did not want to change it. General Power himself (Thomas Power, 55-year-old chief of the Strategic Air Command), when asked at a conference in December 1960 whether the Chinese could be spared, rejected this offer, saying: “I hope no one will think about it, because it really ruins the plan. ”


              The Americans do not plan to leave behind their live competitors.
              1. zyablik.olga
                zyablik.olga 12 November 2019 01: 17
                +2
                Quote: Saxahorse
                Where a lot, it's not a secret for a long time. Many plans were declassified after the expiration of storage in the United States.

                Over the 60 years, nothing has changed in the world? Apparently I didn’t clear out enough. What modern documents speak of an automatic strike against China in the event of a conflict with Russia?
                1. Saxahorse
                  Saxahorse 12 November 2019 21: 56
                  0
                  Quote: zyablik.olga
                  Apparently I burst out not clearly enough.

                  Yes, apparently not enough. It seemed to me that you seriously asked. Well, if so, go back for the exact answer after another 50 years. Without fail I will write something to you. laughing
                  1. zyablik.olga
                    zyablik.olga 13 November 2019 00: 25
                    +2
                    Quote: Saxahorse
                    Yes, apparently not enough. It seemed to me that you seriously asked.

                    I seriously asked. Let's compare China's nuclear potential in the 1961 year and now? To understand that the Americans reckon with the military power of China, it is not necessary to wait for 50 years. And since we are talking about the past, maybe you don’t know, but in the 80 years the PRC and the USA were actually allies. On the territory of the PRC, there were American centers of radio interception and military-technical cooperation was ongoing between the countries.
      2. Chit
        Chit 10 November 2019 13: 19
        -11
        You have strange theses ...
        "Why do they need snowy Siberia?"
        And why do they need the United States, which are beyond the three seas? Will the landing party be planted there? Or is Siberian wealth near by more seductive and accessible? Why do the Chinese need Siberia? Ask the Siberian forest, which will soon cease to exist as such.
        Nevertheless, our press stubbornly confronts the USA and China in a hypothetical war. Why should China trample into America? Isn’t it easier to take Russian lands and resources?
        And about the umbrella ...
        In 1941, too, there were some such brothers forever. Champagne in the Kremlin was raised in their honor, contracts, friendship pacts concluded. Remind me how it ended on June 22?
        1. bk0010
          bk0010 10 November 2019 15: 24
          0
          Siberian riches are inaccessible: look at the map of permafrost. As for "close by" - they were there for millennia - the Chinese did not go there. Most of the forest China gets from any tropical countries and could easily do without Siberian timber, its sale is an initiative of private individuals, and not only "from the other side."
        2. abc_alex
          abc_alex 11 November 2019 16: 22
          -1
          Quote: Chit
          And why do they need the United States, which are beyond the three seas?

          And why are these children's games with logic? Do you consider yourself very cunning and able to manipulate the interlocutor?

          China is not going to attack and capture the United States. Not now, nor in the future. Its strategic nuclear forces are designed to protect against the United States, which is just actively using force around the world.

          Quote: Chit
          Or is Siberian wealth near by more seductive and accessible?


          And you will reach into your pocket for a gold coin to a soldier armed to the teeth, sitting on a box of thick, with a detonator clamped in his hand? Despite the fact that he is not drunk, not blind, not under anesthesia and is staring at you? If your answer is "yes", then check the adequacy of the perception of reality.

          Quote: Chit
          Isn’t it easier to take Russian lands and resources?
          And about the umbrella ...

          I clearly and with numbers wrote out the possible price that China will pay in the context of a large-scale war with Russia in the very first hours. These are at least 15 Israeli populations. These are only direct losses from the first strike. It is not easier.

          Quote: Chit
          In 1941, too, there were some such brothers forever. Champagne in the Kremlin was raised in their honor, contracts, friendship pacts concluded. Remind me how it ended on June 22?

          No need to lie. Hitler's Germans no one called brothers forever. The pact was signed last in Europe. And if you want reminders, then remember how the remilitarization of the Rhine zone ended for France? How did the abolition of restrictions on the German Navy end for Britain?
          Do you want to say that the signing of the PMR and the Trade Agreement was a mistake? Sketch the option better. Just confine ourselves to our Universe, and do not invent worlds with elves and British, ready in 1939 to hold the USSR in the war with Germany.
          1. Chit
            Chit 11 November 2019 18: 49
            -13
            And what, in the USA there is no box with a sense and a detonator? In this case, China will grab less?
            Nevertheless, the press and you, in particular, are stubbornly oppressing the fact that China will butted the United States. Why is this for China? He needs territory. And do not scare the permafrost, take an interest in what latitude Vladivostok is at. And the whole Far East.
            China needs resources, natural resources. Will he take them in the USA? Over the ocean? Do you need to prepare an amphibious assault? Or is it easier to take what's at hand?
            As for the price, where is the guarantee that Russia will pay less? Do you have any idea what a billion-plus people are? And what is 140 million with postscript? Are you aware that China also has nuclear weapons?
            The Germans were not called brothers. That's right, the Chinese were called. To Damansky. Who was there - remembers. Brothers.
            But Ribbentrop with Stalin Kremlin raised champagne glasses.
            Something about the signing of the Pact last this year has become commonplace. Bake the start?
            It may be the last to sign. But with the secret protocol - the first and only. With the very protocol that allowed Hitler to start World War II.
            1. abc_alex
              abc_alex 11 November 2019 20: 01
              0
              Quote: Chit
              And what, in the USA there is no box with a sense and a detonator? In this case, China will grab less?

              There is. Therefore, China is not going to attack the United States. And the United States is not going to attack Russia, and Russia is not going to attack the United States. There are two powers in the world whose attack does not make strategic sense. But the United States may attack China.

              Quote: Chit
              Nevertheless, the press and you, in particular, are stubbornly oppressing the fact that China will butted the United States.

              Well, we just fear that the US is using force to "educate" China. And China will defend itself. It is precisely the US aggression against China that we fear, and not vice versa.

              Quote: Chit
              To China? He needs territory.

              First, no. The demographic map shows that in China there are territories with a low population. And these are not northern mountains. Secondly, if China begins expansion, then in the south it has a fair amount of non-nuclear countries, which are located in a much more comfortable climate than even Vladivostok.
              Quote: Chit
              China needs resources, natural resources.

              Again no. China has the largest reserves of oil and rare earth metals, and no one declared a trade blockade on it. And if we expand for resources, there is North Korea, Afghanistan, where either there is no nuclear weapons at all, or it is much smaller than in Russia. After all, there is Africa, a whole continent where the Chinese have no one to resist.
              You see, a nuclear strike along the coast, and China will not need any resources, for lack of industry.

              Quote: Chit
              Do you have any idea what a billion-plus people are? And what is 140 million with postscript? Are you aware that China also has nuclear weapons?

              I have already given the numbers. 10 attacks on 10 cities in China will deprive him of more than 150 million people and practically deprive industry. The distribution of population and production in China is such that the use of WMD on its territory has fatal consequences. Do you understand that the exchange will not be equivalent? Even having destroyed half of the population in Russia, the Chinese will turn from a prosperous industrial country into a radioactive trash or, at best, into an agricultural colony with a filthy coast. There will be no surplus from the capture of Siberian minerals; there is simply no industry that uses them. And people who can restore it.



              Quote: Chit
              But Ribbentrop with Stalin Kremlin raised champagne glasses.


              And they breathed one air.

              With Hitler, leaders of all European countries drank champagne personally, while English and French sportsmen zigged at him, passing by the rostrum at the Olympics.


              Quote: Chit
              Something about the signing of the Pact last this year has become commonplace. Bake the start?

              It seems to you. Just a fact known to any sane historian reached the media and the most stubborn. There are many such facts.


              Quote: Chit
              But with the secret protocol - the first and only.


              Lying again. Although, maybe you are not lying, but just do not know. The practice of secret treaties, protocols, and articles is as old as the world. A significant part of the Entente system of treaties was precisely secret. You are aware that the Entente itself, until a certain time, was a system of secret agreements. There was a secret Russian-French military agreement of 1892 and a Franco-English agreement, and for a very long time the allied military relations between England and Russia were secret and were not announced at all. This is a vivid example to you of secret agreements which, in your opinion, never existed before the PMR.
              In the framework of the Entente in 1904, between A and F an agreement was concluded on the division of spheres of influence in Africa, which, here's a miracle!, Contained secret articles!


              The only thing that the Bolsheviks can be blamed for is hypocrisy - they have always advocated open diplomacy.

              Quote: Chit
              With the very protocol that allowed Hitler to start World War II.


              This is the father’s thesis that I read today. Not only is it saturated with propaganda more than the newspaper Pravda, it has also been repeatedly refuted by historians. The German army was mobilized by the beginning of summer, and the decision to implement the Weiss operation was made in the spring. But if you can somehow prove the fact that Hitler was waiting for Stalin’s permission, then please, I’m ready to listen to you. I just beg you, do without Polish howls, and xxlisms. Clear and specific.
              1. Bongo
                12 November 2019 01: 54
                +1
                Quote: abc_alex
                But the United States may attack China.

                If there are hundreds of missiles in the PRC capable of delivering more 200 warblocks to the United States? No.
                Quote: abc_alex
                I have already given the numbers. 10 attacks on 10 cities in China will deprive him of more than 150 millions of people and practically deprive industry. The distribution of population and production in China is such that the use of WMD on its territory has fatal consequences.

                Do you think that China will use ballistic missiles in the case of using Russian nuclear weapons on Russian territory, or will our leadership clinging to power inflict a first strike on Beijing?
                Quote: abc_alex
                And if we expand for resources, there is North Korea, Afghanistan, where either there is no nuclear weapons at all, or it is much smaller than in Russia.

                Why should China conquer North Korea and Afghanistan? Okay, there are fossil resources in Afghanistan, but they are easier to buy, and why the DPRK? Aggression in the South will inevitably lead to aggravation with the United States and India.
                1. abc_alex
                  abc_alex 12 November 2019 12: 13
                  +2
                  Quote: Bongo
                  If there are hundreds of missiles in the PRC capable of delivering more 200 warblocks to the United States?

                  Well, that’s why we and a few other smart people are brain rubbing about this branch. wink figuring out the real potential of China.
                  The United States has the doctrine of the first disarming strike. Combined with missile defense in the Pacific and Alaska, it could theoretically reduce US losses to an acceptable minimum.
                  The probability is not high, of course, but it is higher than power actions between the USA and the Russian Federation.

                  Quote: Bongo
                  Do you think that China will use ballistic missiles in the case of using Russian nuclear weapons on Russian territory, or will our leadership clinging to power inflict a first strike on Beijing?

                  I believe that in the event of a Chinese attack, our leadership will voice the threat of using strategic nuclear weapons along the coast of China.
                  And in the event of the outbreak of war in real life, there will be either the realization of a threat or the discharge of the Far East without a fight. Limited nuclear war is not possible. The Statesmen have counted it many times on computers, it always turns out to be a full-scale Armageddian.

                  Quote: Bongo
                  Why should China conquer North Korea and Afghanistan? Okay, there are fossil resources in Afghanistan, but they are easier to buy, and why the DPRK? Aggression in the South will inevitably lead to aggravation with the United States and India.


                  And you look at the geological map of Korea. Do you think how the northern people manage to live in a complete blockade and launch rockets into space? Or why the Japanese climbed into Korea with drunken stubbornness throughout the 20th century. There are two resource "pods" in Asia - Afghan and Korea. It is easier to buy resources from us too.
                  Aggravation with the USA and India will be. But this is not the same as the threat of 1200 BB in its territory.
                  1. Bongo
                    12 November 2019 12: 54
                    +1
                    Quote: abc_alex
                    And you look at the geological map of Korea. Do you think how the northern ones manage to live in complete blockade and launch rockets into space?

                    What is in the DPRK, from what is not in the PRC?
                    Quote: abc_alex
                    Limited nuclear war is not possible.

                    Unfortunately, it is possible, and its scenarios are worked out in all directions.
                    1. abc_alex
                      abc_alex 12 November 2019 22: 24
                      -1
                      Quote: Bongo
                      What is in the DPRK, from what is not in the PRC?

                      Korea is very rich in minerals and most of them are in North Korea. In principle, there is nothing special there, just a lot of industrial significance.

                      Quote: Bongo
                      Unfortunately, it is possible, and its scenarios are worked out in all directions.

                      States almost every year calculate this possibility on computers. An almost instantaneous escalation always results. Over in September, the next calculations published. The result is the same, 90 million in the first hours and the almost inevitable exchange of hundreds of military units between the Russian Federation and the United States.
                      1. Bongo
                        13 November 2019 10: 49
                        +1
                        Quote: abc_alex
                        In principle, there is nothing special there, just a lot of industrial significance.

                        This is what I meant. No one will fight for North Korean resources.
                        Quote: abc_alex
                        States almost every year calculate this possibility on computers. An almost instantaneous escalation always results.

                        It depends on what variables and factors are taken into account in the calculations. "Nuclear winter" was also calculated on computers. It turned out that this is a "horror story" that does not take into account many factors. A nuclear war, unfortunately, is possible, including a "limited" one.
                      2. abc_alex
                        abc_alex 14 November 2019 13: 24
                        0
                        Quote: Bongo
                        This is what I meant. No one will fight for North Korean resources.

                        And what have we found in Siberia vibranium and mithril?

                        Quote: Bongo
                        A nuclear war, unfortunately, is possible, including a "limited" one.

                        Perhaps, but not between the Russian Federation and the United States.
                      3. Bongo
                        14 November 2019 14: 11
                        0
                        Quote: abc_alex
                        And what have we found in Siberia vibranium and mithril?

                        Until now, it seemed to me that you are sane ... request Are you seriously comparing the resources of Siberia, the Far East and North Korea? wassat
                        Quote: abc_alex
                        Perhaps, but not between the Russian Federation and the United States.

                        Absolutely unfounded statement.
                        Quote: abc_alex
                        It’s better to ask the Chinese.

                        So ask, what is the problem? But what do you think, the construction of several SPRN stations looking at India, as evidenced by?
                        Quote: abc_alex
                        But I think that India’s 90-110 tactical nuclear charges with a maximum power of up to 30 kilotons is not the same as Russia's 517 deployed strategic charges with a power of up to 8 megatons.

                        Dear Historian, of course it won't be difficult for you to list the carriers on which thermonuclear warheads with a capacity of "up to 8 Mt" are located?
                        Quote: abc_alex
                        I didn't get it. And in your opinion, "the multitude of group targets that have invaded the airspace of the USSR" why will they do this? To dump money containers to Russians? This development of events meant one thing and 100 percent - the beginning of a full-scale nuclear war by the United States and NATO.

                        No, it didn’t. No. These are your speculations. Until a full-scale nuclear strike was launched on our territory, no one would begin a nuclear apocalypse. For example, during the Soviet era, scenarios were worked out at the KSU up to the reflection of naval landings on our Far Eastern coast.
                        Quote: abc_alex
                        And air defense has already ensured the interception of carriers as far as possible. The USSR was not going to defend unrequitedly. Actually, the whole doctrine of nuclear deterrence was built on that - the inevitable defeat of US territory in any attempt to attack the USSR. Guaranteed destruction.
                        That's why I say - the use of nuclear weapons for air defense / missile defense does not matter.

                        Some kind of poorly informed historian. request Your conclusions have nothing to do with the Soviet military doctrine and plans for warfare. The leadership of the USSR has always declared the non-use of nuclear weapons (strategic) first. But at the same time I can confidently talk about the air defense forces of the country and I will repeat again:
                        Quote: Bongo
                        the decision to use such missiles was made at OA level of air defense.
                        Do you understand what I'm talking about? Apparently not.
                        Quote: abc_alex
                        That's why I say - the use of nuclear weapons for air defense / missile defense does not matter.
                        You can say whatever you want. This is your purely personal opinion. For me, the decommissioning of the 5V55S SAM with a "special warhead" is a mistake.
                      4. abc_alex
                        abc_alex 15 November 2019 19: 42
                        0
                        Quote: Bongo
                        You can say anything. This is your purely personal opinion.



                        On that and finish. Good luck to you. hi
      3. 1970mk
        1970mk 10 November 2019 14: 31
        +6
        Most of the country is practically uninhabited.

        Yeah, yeah .... especially if you look at the small province of Heilujiang)))) near our border ..... just find out the population of this province and look at the map how much space it takes.
        1. Operator
          Operator 10 November 2019 15: 46
          +1
          Chit from Israel, so worries about Siberia laughing
          1. 1970mk
            1970mk 10 November 2019 15: 49
            0
            Funny)))) Chess word from such survivors .... They are rUSssky all about Russia Mother are worried laughing
      4. ssergey1978
        ssergey1978 10 November 2019 20: 16
        +1
        The Vietnamese piled on the Chinese without heat and light.
        1. zyablik.olga
          zyablik.olga 11 November 2019 01: 36
          +4
          Quote: ssergey1978
          The Vietnamese piled on the Chinese without heat and light.

          Themselves "piled", without the help of the USSR?
        2. abc_alex
          abc_alex 11 November 2019 16: 27
          +1
          Quote: ssergey1978
          The Vietnamese piled on the Chinese without heat and light.

          But after all, the Chinese, admittedly, didn’t really rest. We went into the jungle, got it on the head and, upset, left. Not really eager to push.
          1. Bongo
            11 November 2019 16: 34
            +2
            Quote: abc_alex
            But after all, the Chinese, admittedly, didn’t really rest. We went into the jungle, got it on the head and, upset, left. Not really eager to push.

            Yes, only in the Far East did partial mobilization take place. In Kazakhstan, the Chita Region, in the Khabarovsk and Primorsky Territories, tank and motorized rifle divisions stationed before this in the depths of the USSR advanced to the borders with the PRC. And front-line bombers capable of attacking Beijing flew over to the jump airfields in Mongolia. At the same time, the Soviet leadership threatened China with a nuclear strike. And so yes, the frustrated Chinese themselves left Vietnam.
            1. abc_alex
              abc_alex 11 November 2019 16: 40
              -1
              Quote: Bongo
              At the same time, the Soviet leadership threatened China with a nuclear strike. And so yes, the frustrated Chinese themselves left Vietnam.


              Where I said "yourself". I said clearly: "got on the head and left. "
              But in the context of the issue under discussion, they did not risk getting a nuclear strike, in exchange for the territory of Vietnam. Why do you think you will risk now? Yes, now Russia will not be able to assemble a millionth land group on the border. But he will be able to tumble strategic missiles into the largest cities and major economic facilities in China. And the Chinese have not yet shown their readiness to go into the nuclear hell with millions, for the sake of a piece of foreign land. In general, in recent years they weren’t particularly impressive in their expansion 500 ...
              1. Artavazdych
                Artavazdych 17 November 2019 02: 26
                +1
                Tibet, Inner Mongolia, Uyghur District Isn't it Expansion ?!
                1. abc_alex
                  abc_alex 17 November 2019 10: 37
                  -1
                  Quote: Artavazdych
                  Tibet, Inner Mongolia, Uyghur District Isn't it Expansion ?!

                  And this is how many years? See what expansion is in the USA.
      5. Artavazdych
        Artavazdych 17 November 2019 02: 22
        +1
        The Chinese are not greedy. They are Asians. And for Asians, power and strength are elevated to absolute.
    3. Alexey LK
      Alexey LK 12 November 2019 04: 40
      +2
      The conclusions should not be just logical, but logical, but you have a problem with this.
      Quote: ROSS 42
      And the lack of experience in practical wars is not at all the fact that the armed forces of the PRC are a sham, an army of terracotta warriors. The Israeli armed forces are an example of this (as if someone did not belong to this).

      Well, how is it? Does Israel have no "practical warfare experience"? Or does he have a "terracotta army"? What did you want to say?
      Nuclear deterrence is not about conquering someone’s territory. For the United States, China and the Russian Federation, we are not talking about the conquest of any territories, especially territories from each other.
      Although China is building its own "umbrella", it actually needs a "seine". the most realistic threat to China is from the coast, from under the water. Openly, no one dares to attack, but if you provoke him to another "Damansky", and then jerk a megaton in the Pearl River Delta (or the Yangtze, or both there and there), but then try to prove that "this is not us, this is Naglo-Saxons "... This or a similar scenario is the most probable and most dangerous. The fact is that everyone understands that the given moment is characterized by such a strategic situation in which of the three main "centers of nuclear power" the Russian Federation is the most stable - in the sense that it does not need to strain too much and think of something (just make sure that the boat was not rocked from the inside) - it can calmly "sit on the shore and wait for how everything will end", continuing all those trends in the field of defense of recent years, of course. But China and, especially, the United States are on the verge of transition to some other state - and the current trends cannot continue, and it is impossible to slow down the development of the situation, and the interdependence is mad! The only way to avoid an economic and social collapse is to either dictate your will to another, or to fall together. The problem is complicated by the fact that at this stage the Russian Federation will not be able to pull one-sided leadership, which means that it also cannot dictate its will. We need to negotiate! So the parties are getting ready - they are strengthening their negotiating positions. But they will be able to come to an agreement only at the expense of others - and so those others "need to think something", otherwise they will simply be presented with a fact ...
      The main thing now is not to make stupid mistakes, because the strategy homework seems to be done perfectly and the situation looks good. There is a chance that the next "redivision of the world" will not happen at our expense.
  3. riwas
    riwas 10 November 2019 07: 30
    +5
    Recently, a Chinese spokesman said they agree to sign a new START treaty if the US and Russian nuclear arsenals are reduced to the Chinese level.
    1. Ross xnumx
      Ross xnumx 10 November 2019 09: 56
      +6
      Quote: riwas
      they agree to sign a new START treaty if the US and Russian nuclear arsenals are reduced ...

      If you remove the component of the Strategic Missile Forces, then it will be very burdensome to fight the seven hundred millionth army of China - it is this number of soldiers that they can put under arms with full mobilization ...
      1. Bongo
        10 November 2019 10: 06
        +12
        Quote: ROSS 42
        If you remove the component of the Strategic Missile Forces, then it will be very burdensome to fight the seven hundred millionth army of China - it is this number of soldiers that they can put under arms with full mobilization ...

        I will not reveal military secrets, but in the event of China's aggression against the Russian Federation, we will have to repel it with tactical charges on our territory. It was this scenario that was worked out at the extreme KSHU held in the Far Eastern Federal District. Most likely, our leadership will not dare to strike at China with "strategists", because it can fly in Moscow in return. It is necessary to understand against whom the numerous Chinese MRBMs are intended. It remains to be hoped that the Chinese are not interested in attacking the Russian Far East; by and large, they already get everything they need from us.
        1. Ross xnumx
          Ross xnumx 10 November 2019 10: 26
          +6
          Quote: Bongo
          I will not reveal military secrets but in case of aggression of the People's Republic of China against the Russian Federation, we will have to reflect it with tactical charges on our territory.

          yes Studied during the passage of service in 41 MSD ...
          Quote: Bongo
          It is hoped that the Chinese are not interested in an attack on the Russian Far East, by and large they already receive from us everything that they require.

          But at what cost? This is what is alarming ...
          1. Bongo
            10 November 2019 10: 31
            +9
            Quote: ROSS 42
            Studied during the passage of service in 41 MSD ...

            In Mongolia?
            Quote: ROSS 42
            But at what cost? This is what is alarming ...

            Try to find the price of Russian gas supplied to China in open sources.
            1. Ross xnumx
              Ross xnumx 10 November 2019 10: 39
              +8
              Quote: Bongo
              Try to find the price of Russian gas supplied to China in open sources.

              I can tell you that electricity to China also goes at the price of 1 ruble 25 kopecks per 1 kW / hour, this is when the average price in Russia is higher than three rubles ... In exchange, we receive not always high-quality goods (if we exclude electronics). It is this kind of Russian-Chinese "friendship" that is alarming.
              1. Bongo
                10 November 2019 10: 45
                +13
                Quote: ROSS 42
                I can tell you that electricity goes to China at the price of 1 ruble 25 kopecks for 1 kW / h, this is when in Russia the average price is higher than three rubles ...

                In the Far East, the population pays 4,5 rubles per kWh. Despite the fact that the Zeya and Bureyskaya HPPs are nearby, and there is an excess of generating capacities in the region. But you will not find the cost of a cubic meter of gas supplied to China.
                1. Golovan Jack
                  Golovan Jack 10 November 2019 10: 49
                  -8
                  Quote: Bongo
                  In the Far East, the population pays 4,5 rubles per kWh.

                  Sergey, I will note that the price of electricity "in the socket" (which is paid by the population ... I, by the way, also the population, and I pay 5.56, EMNIP) and its price "for power lines" are two big differences. And this is completely normal, maintenance of the distribution network and other step-down substations is not cheap. request

                  What China buys - it buys "on power lines".
                  1. Bongo
                    10 November 2019 10: 54
                    +10
                    Quote: Golovan Jack
                    Sergei, I will note that the price of electricity "in the socket" (which is paid by the population ... I, by the way, also the population) and its price "for power lines" are two big differences. And this is completely normal, maintenance of the distribution network and other step-down substations is not cheap.

                    I agree, it’s not cheap. yes But you want to say that delivering it to the border with China is cheaper than to the Russian consumer, and its delivery cost is three times higher than the cost of generation?
                    1. Golovan Jack
                      Golovan Jack 10 November 2019 11: 02
                      -6
                      Quote: Bongo
                      you want to say that delivering it to the border with China is cheaper than to the Russian consumer

                      If the consumer is a local energy company (such as UryupinskEnergoSbyt), then the costs are comparable.

                      If we are talking, for example, about me, as a final consumer, the costs grow multiple.

                      Once upon a time I brought this figure, what and how much it costs, with interest ... now looking for it is extremely muddy and lazy - but there it is multiple increasee cost.

                      Quote: Bongo
                      is its shipping cost three times higher than the cost of generation?

                      According to the figures that you brought - the same in 2. "To the socket" - exactly yes
                      1. Bongo
                        10 November 2019 11: 08
                        +13
                        Quote: Golovan Jack
                        "To the outlet" - exactly like that

                        I’m not a power engineer, but somehow I hardly believe in it. No. In any case, I know the cost of 95 gasoline at the Komsomolsk refinery and see the cost at the gas station. It also differs several times. All the problems of our Far East and the massive outflow of the population are associated with sky-high tariffs, difficult living conditions and low earnings. If nothing in this regard changes in public policy, then after a couple of decades the Russian population will not remain here.
                      2. Golovan Jack
                        Golovan Jack 10 November 2019 11: 35
                        -4
                        Quote: Bongo
                        If nothing in this regard changes in public policy, then ...

                        If you think that I am delighted with the office that sells electricity to me, then ... you are mistaken laughing

                        Here they still started - "let's change the meter", and it's only three years since they changed ... woodpeckers, damn it. And this is 5 kilo rubles, by the way request

                        Quote: Bongo
                        then after a couple of decades the Russian population will not remain here

                        Well, I don’t know how to argue about this ... I’m more and more about the structure of the cost of electricity.

                        PS: with gasoline - a slightly different story.
                      3. Bongo
                        10 November 2019 11: 56
                        +8
                        Quote: Golovan Jack
                        PS: with gasoline - a slightly different story.

                        It seems to me that the story is one.
                        Quote: Golovan Jack
                        Well, I don’t know how to argue about this ... I’m more and more about the structure of the cost of electricity.

                        And there’s nothing to argue about. In Komsomolsk-on-Amur in 1991, the population exceeded 330 thousand people. By 2018, according to the development plan, the city was to become a millionaire. In this reality, in 2018, there were about 250 thousand people in Koms. According to incomplete data, about 5 thousand people left this city this year. Probably they, due to good living conditions, left for the western regions, and because of cheap energy and free gasoline? Okay, in Komsomolsk the 95-th costs more than 45 rub / liter, according to BAM at gas stations its price has exceeded 80 rub.
                      4. Golovan Jack
                        Golovan Jack 10 November 2019 12: 06
                        -4
                        Quote: Bongo
                        Quote: Golovan Jack
                        PS: with gasoline - a slightly different story.

                        I think the story is one

                        Not. In the price of electricity there is no mineral extraction tax, excise taxes and other. Taxes in the price of gasoline - more than 50%, EMNIP.

                        Quote: Bongo
                        And there’s nothing to argue about

                        So, it ... and who argues? Me not request
                      5. Town Hall
                        Town Hall 10 November 2019 12: 22
                        0
                        Quote: Bongo
                        I am not a power engineer

                        https://m.habr.com/ru/post/432880/
                        It’s simplistic and clear enough
                      6. Golovan Jack
                        Golovan Jack 10 November 2019 12: 38
                        -2
                        Quote: Town Hall
                        It’s simplistic and clear enough

                        Thank you.

                        Sergey, here is the picture - here is the (approximate) cost structure for the consumer:


                        Sapienti sat, as they say request
                  2. Ross xnumx
                    Ross xnumx 10 November 2019 11: 10
                    +9
                    Quote: Golovan Jack
                    And this is completely normal, maintaining the distribution network and other step-down substations is not cheap

                    This is abnormal only because most of the so-called "margin" settles in the pockets of the power supply companies created under Chubais. And at a cost price of 0,5 - 0,7 rubles per 1 kWh, talk about some big transformation costs , and even more so - the operation of power grids paid by consumers, it is simply indecent to speak ...
                    In 2018, the generation of electricity by Russian power plants, including the production of electricity at power plants of industrial enterprises, amounted to 1091,7 billion kWh

                    The actual electricity consumption in the Russian Federation in 2018 amounted to 1076,2 billion kWh

                    I wonder where the 15,5 billion kW / h or the funds from their transformation and distribution disappeared. Science has not figured out ...
                    1. Golovan Jack
                      Golovan Jack 10 November 2019 11: 30
                      -8
                      Quote: ROSS 42
                      at a cost price of 0,5 - 0,7 rubles per 1 kW / h, it’s indecent to talk about some big expenses for transformation, and even more so - for the operation of electric networks paid by consumers.

                      Man, it’s indecent to shake here, it’s not clear where the numbers come from.

                      If you have a trustworthy source on the structure of the cost of electricity for the population - let him go to the studio, if not - don’t, um, stir up the water.

                      Quote: ROSS 42
                      I wonder where the 15,5 billion kW / h or the funds from their transformation and distribution disappeared. Science has not figured out ...

                      This is 1.41% of the total generated volume. Even for standard losses - "it will not be enough", here is a link to the document with the norms of losses during transmission of electricity (not very new, 2017, but still):

                      1. Ross xnumx
                        Ross xnumx 10 November 2019 11: 33
                        +4
                        Quote: Golovan Jack
                        it’s indecent to shake the numbers from nowhere.

                        Indeed, where does that come from? belay
                        https://minenergo.gov.ru/node/532
                      2. Golovan Jack
                        Golovan Jack 10 November 2019 11: 43
                        -5
                        Quote: ROSS 42
                        Really...

                        I didn’t see either the cost of production by reference or, moreover, consumer price structures. Which is interesting and interesting.

                        I suggest: there can’t be a price structure there, the site is at the RF level (gov), and the price is set in the regions ... it doesn’t matter, try again yes
                2. Ross xnumx
                  Ross xnumx 10 November 2019 10: 53
                  +6
                  Quote: Bongo
                  But you will not find the cost of a cubic meter of gas supplied to China.

                  This can be calculated:
                  In May 2014, Gazprom and China's CNPC signed an agreement, according to which the Russian side must supply 30 billion cubic meters annually through the Power of Siberia gas pipeline for 38 years. The total amount of the contract is $ 400 billion. It is reported by Rambler. Further: https://news.rambler.ru/other/42739361/?utm_content=rnews&utm_medium=read_more&utm_source=copylink
                  400: 000: 000 = $ 000 per 30 m³
                  hi
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                  2. Town Hall
                    Town Hall 10 November 2019 11: 46
                    -5
                    Quote: ROSS 42
                    Quote: Bongo
                    But you will not find the cost of a cubic meter of gas supplied to China.

                    This can be calculated:
                    In May 2014, Gazprom and China's CNPC signed an agreement, according to which the Russian side must supply 30 billion cubic meters annually through the Power of Siberia gas pipeline for 38 years. The total amount of the contract is $ 400 billion. It is reported by Rambler. Further: https://news.rambler.ru/other/42739361/?utm_content=rnews&utm_medium=read_more&utm_source=copylink
                    400: 000: 000 = $ 000 per 30 m³
                    hi

                    Do you seriously believe that China has signed up to buy gas 30 years in advance at a fixed price of $ 350 per 1000 cubic meters? Do not take them for idiots ....
                    The figure of 400 billion is naturally not recorded in any contracts. It exists only on the pages of the pro-Gasprom press. And it was "born" out of such higher mathematics as in your post. We took a period of 30 years (by the way, from which year the countdown begins 30 years ?), multiplied by the design capacity of gas pipelines from Russia to China (by the way, when will the Stbiri Power be completed and from what year will it reach its design capacity?) and multiplied by $ 350 (the price of gas at the time of signing the contract in 2014. By the way, what is the price now, for example, gas on the markets and what will it be like in 10 years?).
                    After this arithmetic, the figure of 400 billion went to the people, although it was still modestly specified that this was not a figure specified in the contract, but an ASSESSMENT based on 2014 prices
                3. Wildcat
                  Wildcat 10 November 2019 21: 56
                  +2
                  Quote: Bongo

                  ...
                  But you will not find the cost of a cubic meter of gas supplied to China.

                  hi
                  The question of the price for gas supplied to China is very interesting, and Sberbank experts considered it. Conclusions: "Fack and Kotelnikova write that the construction of Power of Siberia will cost $ 55,4 billion, but these investments will not be repaid by selling gas to China. The authors of the report concluded that Gazprom will lose 11 billion on the construction of Power of Siberia. dollars. "
                  https://meduza.io/feature/2018/05/23/analitik-sberbanka-raskritikoval-gazprom-za-kontrakty-otdannye-druzyam-putina-a-rosneft-za-neobosnovannye-traty-ego-uvolili
                  Other links can be found independently by scoring in the search engine "Sberbank CIB / Alexander Kudrin / Alexander Fack /" Tickle the giants "".
                  How can such expenses be caused, ......, Yandex to help (inconvenient to write about it .. crying ).
                  I translate into the language of native aspens: it is cheaper for the state to give 55,4 billion dollars to Bongo and forget about them, because 11 billion dollars will still remain, for example, in air defense.
                  1. Wildcat
                    Wildcat 10 November 2019 23: 11
                    +2
                    hi
                    Okay, who left the minus, may not trust Sber, but do we believe in the native Government and the Minister of Energy? Take Krutikhin as an example:
                    "To what extent is Beijing interested in Russian gas supplies through Power of Siberia?"
                    - Gas consumption in China is growing, but two years ago in China I talked about this project with government officials, and they told me that it was a fallback. They are guided by imports of reduced natural gas, in addition to pipe them in Central Asia. And if the delivery of reduced natural gas by sea encounters problems of a military-political nature, it will be difficult to deliver, they expect to receive gas from Russia. That is, this project is not the main source of gas for the Chinese, and it is very far from China's priorities.
                    - Let's look at the situation from the other side. How difficult is this project for Russia, what is its profitability and payback period?
                    - Back in 2017, the Minister of Energy (Alexander Novak - ed.), Speaking in the State Duma, said that this was not a commercial project. That is, it will never pay off at all. Clear? I have Gazprom's calculations showing that this project will not pay off until 2048 either. It's just that in all the charts it is worth "not paying off" by net present value. That is, it is not a payback project. It is reported by Rambler. Further: https://finance.rambler.ru/markets/42447421/?utm_content=rfinance&utm_medium=read_more&utm_source=copylink ".
        2. abc_alex
          abc_alex 10 November 2019 11: 01
          +1
          Quote: Bongo
          Most likely, our leadership will not dare to strike at China with "strategists", because it can fly in Moscow in return.

          Then it makes no sense to beat with "tactics". 700 million, of course, is an absurd estimate, but according to the scheme 12 are fed 1 is fighting a hundred million Chinese can mobilize. Even tactical nuclear weapons cannot contain such an army head-on. Is that to hit them on themselves in the logic "so you don't get to anyone." If nuclear weapons are used, then in full, or not at all. He can fly to Moscow anyway.

          How can it fly to Beijing. And not from us at all. Why does the United States need China to cross the border of Europe? They can tumble through the cities of China, fortunately, that they themselves are far away.
          1. Bongo
            10 November 2019 11: 12
            +8
            Quote: abc_alex
            Then it makes no sense to beat with "tactics". 700 million, of course, is an absurd estimate, but according to the scheme 12 are fed 1 is fighting a hundred million Chinese can mobilize. Even tactical nuclear weapons cannot hold such an army head-on.

            Excuse me, what is your military specialty? This I mean, do not confuse a trained and equipped land army with mobilization resources. If we talk about mobresource, then China can relatively painlessly exchange in the ratio 1: 1 adult men for the entire population of the Russian Federation.
            1. abc_alex
              abc_alex 10 November 2019 11: 55
              -2
              Quote: Bongo
              Excuse me, what is your military specialty?

              Historian hi
              And as a historian, I know that the role of any previously trained army is to die heroically in the first months of the war. By the way, it was not me who started about the resources, and pay attention, first of all, I "lowered" the false estimates from 700 million submitted SW. ROSS 42 to 100. And secondly, this figure is not taken from the ceiling, but from the 12/1 ratio of the same one that the USSR came to in 1944-1945. That is, it is the relations between the belligerents, proven by the history of big wars, and providing in a war without nuclear weapons, but already technological. Despite the fact that the army is fully trained and equipped.
              A mob. China’s resource is much greater.

              Quote: Bongo
              If we talk about mobresource, then China can relatively painlessly exchange 1: 1 adult men for the entire population of the Russian Federation.

              I would say without even noticing ...
          2. Ross xnumx
            Ross xnumx 10 November 2019 11: 26
            +7
            Quote: abc_alex
            Then it makes no sense to beat with "tactics". 700 million, of course, an absurd estimate,

            It is from this that "strategists" who have not served in the army proceed. In the early 80s, we also wondered why China needed parity in the number of PLA l / s to l / s of the USSR Armed Forces in the ratio of 10: 1, but this was intended. This is how the question of victory over the Soviet revisionists was decided. It was then that the theory of "Chinese waves" was spread. It was then that the parable arose about the impossibility of shooting 1 ... (I do not want to provoke the wrath of the moderators) .. So, even then, the reserves of the PLA could have been increased, according to various estimates, from 000 to 000 ... that the mobilization capabilities of the USSR were 000 ... belay But then the population in the USSR was more than 270 million ...
            1. abc_alex
              abc_alex 10 November 2019 12: 06
              -1
              Here you are the military, with uv. Bongo, sit down and argue with each other. lol About the army and the mob. resources. I am a historian and operate with realities confirmed in the past. The last major war gave the ratio of the size of the regular army to the population of the country, in which the army is equipped, trained and capable of conducting military operations on a strategic scale. This is "12 feeds, one fights." Divide China's population by 12 to get the potential PLA that China can provide. According to the proportions confirmed by history. 700 million he can put under arms, probably. But they will not be able to fight. That does not negate the fact that the last 100 million will simply enter empty Russian cities.
              1. Alexey LK
                Alexey LK 12 November 2019 03: 26
                +4
                Dear historian, tell me, what kind of war did this give you reason to think that after a couple of nuclear strikes it will be possible to mobilize at all? In any country ... Mankind (thank God) this experiment has not yet passed. Yes, I think that as soon as the Internet is cut down all over the world (and this is inevitable), the population will immediately become very pacifist-minded.
                The ratio of 12 to 1 could be when a soldier was given an average rifle with cartridges and a bag of rice. And now the times are completely different, on average it will be at least 30-40 to one.
                But that's not the point. How do they get there? I’m not even talking about the Urals - at least until Novosib? On foot? What will they be on the road? Each other? They still do not have time to collect the first 20-25 million in the army, when mass famine and riots begin there, and people with weapons will be among the main in the struggle for survival ... IMHO.
                1. abc_alex
                  abc_alex 12 November 2019 11: 52
                  -2
                  Quote: Alexey LK
                  Dear historian, tell me, what kind of war did this give you reason to think that after a couple of nuclear strikes it will be possible to mobilize at all?

                  If you read my posts in the branch, I’m just saying that ONLY strategic nuclear strikes against China can tip the scales in favor of Russia in the event of an attack. Everything else up to tactical nuclear weapons does not make sense. Do not convince me of what I am talking about.
                  wink


                  Quote: Alexey LK
                  The ratio of 12 to 1 could be when a soldier was given an average rifle with cartridges and a bag of rice.

                  Read carefully. The ratio of 12/1 was obtained from the experience of the USSR 1944-1945. CA then fought far from a bag of rice. She was a highly technological and effective military force. And the country could fully provide it to everyone, and plus conduct active development of new systems.

                  Quote: Alexey LK
                  How do they get there? I’m not even talking about the Urals - at least until Novosib? On foot? What will they be on the road? Each other? They still do not have time to collect the first 20-25 million in the army, when mass famine and riots begin there, and people with weapons will be among the main in the struggle for survival ...

                  Well, ours somehow solved logistics issues in 1945 both to the west and to the east. The Kwantung army was defeated by units transferred from Europe.
                  You ask questions related to military planning, I’m not good at it. But I know that many supply issues are being solved by creating strategic reserves in the pre-war period. For example, Germany, before 2MB, had strategic food supplies in the amount of at least no-one consumption. Not by the army, but by the country.
                  And again, why collect 25 million people at once? The current army of 3-5 million is already sufficient for the Far East. It's just that it will be constantly replenished with people and equipment. These are "waves of mobilization".
                  1. Alexey LK
                    Alexey LK 14 November 2019 18: 56
                    +3
                    Quote: abc_alex
                    I’m just saying that ONLY strategic nuclear strikes against China are able to tip the scales in favor of Russia in the event of an attack. Everything else up to tactical nuclear weapons does not make sense. Do not convince me of what I am talking about.

                    You did not understand. I'm talking about tactical strikes! The population will be extremely frightened (to put it mildly) and will not understand that this is "just" tactical nuclear weapons. And after a strategic strike, it’s generally meaningless to talk about something - both countries end their history.
                    Quote: abc_alex
                    The ratio of 12/1 was obtained from the experience of the USSR 1944-1945. CA then fought far from a bag of rice.

                    What does the USSR have to do with it if "rifle and rice" are the words of Mao Zedong about what is enough for a Chinese soldier? Not familiar with this thesis of his? And for the USSR - right, but after all, its ratio was not 1 to 12. And after all, since that time the equipment of the Armed Forces has gone far ahead - including in China. My thought is that there cannot be such a ratio now, it is much less. Refute this exactly if you can.
                    Quote: abc_alex
                    Well, ours somehow solved logistics issues in 1945 both to the west and to the east.

                    They decided, but with great difficulty! And to solve such issues in the European part is one thing, but in Siberia, Transbaikalia and in the Far East it is quite another! For the defeat of the Kwantung army thoroughly prepared and not three days - but it was in the steppe! And it was one, albeit a big, operation. And here we are talking about something completely different! The small infrastructure that exists will be destroyed in the first minutes of the war - but how to advance beyond the Urals without the Trans-Siberian Railway and the Baikal-Amur Mainline? In whatever direction ... And what, the Chinese will limit themselves to the Far East? What next? Will there be an expectation that they will be scared and forgiven?
                    1. abc_alex
                      abc_alex 15 November 2019 19: 59
                      -1
                      Quote: Alexey LK
                      What does the USSR have to do with it if "rifle and rice" are the words of Mao Zedong about what is enough for a Chinese soldier? Not familiar with this thesis of his? And for the USSR - right, but after all, its ratio was not 1 to 12. And after all, since that time the equipment of the Armed Forces has gone far ahead - including in China. My thought is that there cannot be such a ratio now, it is much less. Refute this exactly if you can.


                      I repeat the third time. This ratio is taken from calculations in the USSR for the period 1944-1945. When the SA carried out large-scale military operations being equipped with the latest technology. You can offer other data - offer.
                      Today, two processes can shift this relationship - the complexity of military equipment and the growth of labor productivity. Perhaps the ratio has moved somewhere, but I do not think so much. Moreover, during the war, the complexity of technology decreases, and the productivity of the military industry increases.

                      Quote: Alexey LK
                      The population will be extremely frightened (to put it mildly) and will not understand that this is "just" tactical nuclear weapons.


                      I don’t understand, what are you talking about? Tactical weapons are used on the battlefield. The population is hit with strategic weapons.

                      Quote: Alexey LK
                      And after a strategic strike, there’s nothing to talk about at all - both countries are ending their story.

                      Therefore, I believe that the danger of a Chinese attack on Russia is fiction.

                      Quote: Alexey LK
                      but how to advance beyond the Urals without the Trans-Siberian Railway and BAM? In whatever direction ... And what, the Chinese will limit themselves to the Far East? What next? Will there be an expectation that they will be scared and forgiven?


                      Wait, are you convincing me now that China will not attack Russia? I’m talking about this all the way. An attempt to capture Siberia and the Far East is extremely difficult, extremely dangerous and strategically meaningless. China is easier and more rational to step south and east.
                      1. Alexey LK
                        Alexey LK 16 November 2019 05: 26
                        +2
                        Quote: abc_alex
                        This ratio is taken from calculations in the USSR for the period 1944-1945. When the SA carried out large-scale military operations being equipped with the latest technology. You can offer other data - offer.

                        I’m talking about the same thing! Now everything is different. I have already offered my assessment - 1 to 30 - 1 to 40. That is, The Russian Federation will be able to expose no more than 4,5 million normally equipped troops. Of course, if you distribute only AK to the people - more. The same goes for China - adjusted for population.
                        Quote: abc_alex
                        I don’t understand, what are you talking about? Tactical weapons are used on the battlefield. The population is hit with strategic weapons.

                        The fact that there is a very high probability of panic and disorder, regardless of which particular nuclear weapon is used - tactical or strategic, and where exactly. Just one video on YouTube will be enough. The bodies responsible for mobilization can certainly assume something, but humanity still does not have experience of mobilization in a nuclear conflict, albeit limited (I hope it never will be!). Those. Imagine a situation: the Chinese army is attacking, it is being hit by tactical nuclear weapons (in the territory of the Russian Federation), the Chinese population will know about it, and then they will announce to it - you need them at the front ... Well, will they have enthusiasm? The population of the Russian Federation - of course, it will be necessary to protect your country, without options. I’m talking about this.
                      2. abc_alex
                        abc_alex 16 November 2019 16: 55
                        -3
                        Quote: Alexey LK
                        I have already offered my assessment - 1 to 30 - 1 to 40. That is, The Russian Federation will be able to expose no more than 4,5 million normally equipped troops. Of course, if you distribute only AK to the people - more.

                        BUT...
                        You may be right, although in 1945 there were no CNC machining centers or robotic assembly lines.
                        But with any ratio of nursing to warring, it will be common to us and China. And a tenfold numerical advantage over China will remain. And with such an advantage, convention war is resolved in one wicket.



                        Quote: Alexey LK
                        Those. Imagine a situation: the Chinese army is attacking, it is being hit by tactical nuclear weapons (in the territory of the Russian Federation), the Chinese population will know about it, and then they will announce to it - you need them at the front ... Well, will they have enthusiasm?


                        Yes, you understand, we do not hide the quantity and quality of our strategic nuclear forces. And in China they are well aware of this. And therefore, starting the war, the population will prepare for it. The very fact of an attack on a nuclear power requires a fair amount of training. I would even say frantic ideological pumping. Moreover, the far-reaching army of 5 million people will already be a decisive force in the Far East. There may not be mobilization required. Or they will carry out the mobilization in advance, before the start of the war.
                        Yes, in principle, I said that I am also considering the option "do not get you to anyone". It is possible to carry out a chain of nuclear explosions along the border.
                        But isn’t it easier to directly declare readiness to destroy the strategic rear of the enemy? Or do you hope that the use of nuclear weapons by troops will not lead to escalation?


                        By the way, is u-tube in China not turned off? Google then the Chinese kick in the ass kicked out for a long time.
                      3. Alexey LK
                        Alexey LK 17 November 2019 06: 26
                        +1
                        Quote: abc_alex
                        Or do you hope that the use of nuclear weapons by troops will not lead to escalation?

                        So this is my main idea for you !!! yes If I understand correctly, this is what is called the concept of "escalation for the sake of de-escalation."

                        Quote: abc_alex
                        Yes, in principle, I said that I am also considering the option "do not get you to anyone".

                        This is by no means this option! stop If it is necessary to press the "big red button", then there may be reasonable doubts. But if we are talking about a "little red button", then this is another matter - it is necessary, then it is necessary, they will press.

                        Quote: abc_alex
                        But isn’t it easier to directly declare readiness to destroy the strategic rear of the enemy?

                        This has long been done in the form of a corresponding Doctrine. And also in the famous speech: In the case of faq - "You ..., and we - to heaven!" Have you heard? wink

                        Quote: abc_alex
                        By the way, is u-tube in China not turned off?

                        Yes, probably. I used with a small letter - as a household word. There are analogues.
    2. abc_alex
      abc_alex 10 November 2019 10: 50
      0
      Quote: riwas
      Recently, a Chinese representative said

      ... that the inclusion of China in the bilateral treaties of the USA and the PF is impossible, and these requirements are only a ruse for the United States for the sake of being able to get out of the system of deterrent agreements.
  4. Observer2014
    Observer2014 10 November 2019 07: 47
    +7
    Thank you for the article. hi I read it with interest. Now it becomes clear why the Chinese are not particularly "greyhounds" in military terms.
    Unlike the USSR and the United States, which relied on a “reciprocal strike”, the PLA command believed that in the event of a nuclear war, the Chinese strategic nuclear forces would strike over time.
    Here it is the key to this state of affairs. I hope our authorities have enough reason not to help the Chinese overcome this situation. Let them sit in their tunnels better. By the way, they dig up so much that the Great Wall of China is resting.
  5. Professor
    Professor 10 November 2019 07: 48
    +4
    Sergey, I would not undertake to write about the nuclear weapons of China. The topic is too closed for them.
    You're doing fine. good
    1. Bongo
      10 November 2019 08: 18
      +9
      Quote: Professor
      Sergey, I would not undertake to write about the nuclear weapons of China. The topic is too closed for them.
      You're doing fine.

      Oleg, welcome! Thanks for the kind words! But in fairness, I must say that there were no special problems in collecting information on the Chinese strategic nuclear forces. Another question is how reliable is it? request
      But one way or another, I hope that I managed to separate the "wheat from the chaff" based on the data available in the public domain. This article, in fact, is a "walk-through", and was made so that the not too sophisticated reader could understand in what conditions an anti-missile weapon is being created in the PRC.
      Next week, the next publication of this cycle about China's early warning system should be released. It was there that I really had to collect information bit by bit, and very carefully "filter" it.
      1. Professor
        Professor 10 November 2019 09: 57
        +2
        Quote: Bongo
        Oleg, welcome! Thanks for the kind words! But in fairness, I must say that there were no special problems in collecting information on the Chinese strategic nuclear forces. Another question is how reliable is it?

        As we say, "this is a $ 1 question." wink

        Our "common Australian friend" Carlo claimed that mobile Chinese complexes are capable of firing only from concrete sites. From the ground they cannot. I wonder if Poplar can?

        The bourgeois write about serious problems with the Chinese nuclear submarines.

        Quote: Bongo
        But one way or another, I hope that I managed to separate the "wheat from the chaff" based on the data available in the public domain. This article, in fact, is a "walk-through", and was made so that the not too sophisticated reader could understand in what conditions an anti-missile weapon is being created in the PRC.
        Next week, the next publication of this cycle about China's early warning system should be released. It was there that I really had to collect information bit by bit, and very carefully "filter" it.

        hi
        1. Bongo
          10 November 2019 10: 13
          +4
          Quote: Professor
          Our "common Australian friend" Carlo argued that mobile Chinese complexes are capable of firing only from concrete sites. From the ground they cannot.

          Most likely he is right. yes Early towed DF-31s have problems with passability on soft terrain. I know the coordinates of dozens of such concreted areas, in some places it turns out on satellite images to "catch" real complexes during training. But in extreme cases, you can start from the highway, especially since the roads in the PRC are also built of concrete. Only the time for georeferencing and data entry will be longer.
          Quote: Professor
          I wonder if Poplar?

          Not Copenhagen ... request
          Quote: Professor
          The bourgeois write about serious problems with the Chinese nuclear submarines.

          As for the Chinese SSBNs, judging by satellite images, they actively go to sea.
          1. Professor
            Professor 10 November 2019 10: 28
            0
            Quote: Bongo
            Most likely he is right. Early towed DF-31s have problems with passability on soft terrain. I know the coordinates of dozens of such concreted areas, in some places it turns out on satellite images to "catch" real complexes during training. But in extreme cases, you can start from the highway, especially since the roads in the PRC are also built of concrete. Only the time for georeferencing and data entry will be longer.

            EMNIP, He did not refer to patency, but to the spread of soil and stones at startup.
  6. vomag
    vomag 10 November 2019 09: 18
    +4
    I liked the set-off article .. bombers of the N-6 family, well, so-so .. and the Chinese "strategist" H-20 looks very menacing .. it's a pity there is no TTX ....
    1. Bongo
      10 November 2019 09: 34
      +5
      Quote: vomag
      bomber family H-6 well, right so-so.

      The Chinese have very much managed to tighten the characteristics of the N-6K / N, compared to the basic Tu-16, and equip it with new weapons. More recently, a photo of the N-6N with the Chinese analogue of the "Dagger" has appeared.

      Quote: vomag
      The Chinese "strategist" H-20 looks very menacing .. sorry for his TTX ....

      In the West, they believe that by TTX it is close to B-2A.
  7. Bongo
    10 November 2019 10: 33
    +3
    Quote: Professor
    EMNIP, He did not refer to patency, but to the spread of soil and stones at startup.

    Oleg, given that the launcher is actually one-time, it seems to me that the expansion of stones and soil does not matter much.
  8. Armata T-14
    Armata T-14 10 November 2019 11: 14
    -7
    in the next decade, the Chinese strategic nuclear forces can come close in terms of qualitative and quantitative indicators to Russia's capabilities

    They can’t. During the last liberal global financial and economic crisis of 2021, China will lose about half of its GDP and economic growth
    1. Bongo
      10 November 2019 11: 18
      +6
      Quote: Armata T-14
      They can’t. During the last liberal global financial and economic crisis of 2021, China will lose about half of its GDP and economic growth

      Come on .... and Russia will show GDP growth of 20% per year? wassat
      1. Armata T-14
        Armata T-14 10 November 2019 23: 13
        -3
        No, in 2021 Russia will approximately remain with its own, + a few percent. And from 2022 Russia will steadily begin to grow by 8-12% per year
  9. sevtrash
    sevtrash 10 November 2019 11: 49
    +1
    The logical result for the second world economy is the possibility of creating now and / or in the future, modern types of weapons. In decent quantities. Apparently, the time is not far when the Chinese will be leaders in some types of weapons, in quality.
  10. Chaldon48
    Chaldon48 10 November 2019 12: 08
    0
    The availability of cheap labor allows China to drill rocks wherever they see fit. That's just how they are doing with air defense and missile defense at the exit from these bunkers.
    1. zyablik.olga
      zyablik.olga 10 November 2019 12: 15
      +4
      Quote: Chaldon48
      The availability of cheap labor allows China to drill rocks wherever they see fit. That's just how they are doing with air defense and missile defense at the exit from these bunkers.

      With air defense they are all right. No, so long ago, Bongo had a series of publications on this subject. ABM in the making.
  11. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 10 November 2019 13: 04
    +3
    Thanks. Detailed and clear good
  12. Old26
    Old26 10 November 2019 13: 35
    +2
    Quote: Professor
    I wonder if Poplar?

    Can. In fact, the field starting positions of our PGRCs are soil pads. True, they are equipped in geodesic terms.
    I think that Chinese missiles can also be fired from the ground (if necessary). The main thing is that the ground holds the launcher and does not "float" from its weight.

    Quote: Professor
    EMNIP, He did not refer to patency, but to the spread of soil and stones at startup.

    It seems that they only start from the launch pad (unlike our complexes that launch rockets with the help of PAD. And I don’t think that the spread of soil and stones at launch is so critical ..
    Sergei! Thanks for the next article. Small marginal notes
    The biggest plus point regarding the Chinese strategic missile forces (of course for us) is that of course they sound the most diverse parameters. THERE are just almost all of their intercontinental missiles NEVER flew to their ultimate range. Although they have ships of the command and measuring complex. In fact, only one of their intercontinental EMNIP DF-5 flew to the maximum range.
    The second such plus is that the Chinese missiles (both ICBMs and SLBMs, and intermediate-range missiles) have NEVER been tested with full combat equipment. Even if they say that a rocket can carry 10 BB in tests, this number is 2-3.
    But such tests, after all, guarantees that missile systems correspond to those parameters that are attributed to them
    I can still understand the North Koreans, who do not have a KIK fleet and launch rockets along high-altitude trajectories, which theoretically seem to confirm the declared parameters, and how it will be in reality - HZ
  13. Operator
    Operator 10 November 2019 15: 27
    0
    "to our Chinese friends", - an interesting opinion from Israel laughing

    Friends of Russia so far include the Army, Aviation, Fleet and Strategic Missile Forces.
  14. Operator
    Operator 10 November 2019 15: 40
    -4
    Quote: abc_alex
    0 largest cities, 150 + million people

    In China, 90% of the population and 100% of the industry are located in the coastal zone 700 km deep - i.e. within the limits of radioactive plumes from explosions of 100-Mtn special warheads deployed on the Poseidon RV, the required number of which can be determined based on the 72-km coastal zone of continuous destruction of buildings and structures.

    At the same time, the regions of China remote from the sea are mountainous and desert areas with extreme climatic characteristics and are mainly inhabited by Tibetans, Uighurs and Mongols.
  15. Operator
    Operator 10 November 2019 15: 49
    -7
    Quote: Bongo
    in the event of aggression by the PRC against the Russian Federation, we will have to reflect it with tactical charges on our territory

    Do you pay extra for misinformation? laughing
    1. Robert
      Robert 11 November 2019 13: 20
      +1
      Quote: Operator
      Do you pay extra for misinformation?

      Of course they pay extra, Sergei, unlike you, is obviously not aware that we have Poseidon. Now, if I knew, I would not write such articles! laughing
      1. Operator
        Operator 11 November 2019 13: 32
        0
        Specifically, NPA "Poseidon" is in particular, we are talking about the fact that, according to Linnik, Russia will repel Chinese aggression tactical charges on its territory.

        The standard thesis of Russophobes is "Voronezh must be bombed."
        1. Robert
          Robert 11 November 2019 13: 41
          +1
          I am not a military man, but if at least a 200 million army rushes in (here different figures cite the potential of the PLA), then what else is left to do? Russophobia has nothing to do with it. You do not see Russophobia in the surrender of our territories to China, in the sale of forests, the settlement of lands and the lease of territories that originally belonged to Russians under the crafty name of TOP (this is a reality, unlike even Linnik's theses, as you put it). Yes, it will be necessary to bomb Voronezh so that it does not become like in the joke: "Everything is calm on the Finnish-Chinese border!"
        2. Bongo
          11 November 2019 14: 36
          +1
          Quote: Operator
          The standard thesis of Russophobes is "Voronezh must be bombed."

          Aren't you tired of disgrace? You already have a reputation as perhaps the main inadequate on Military Review. fool It’s just that they don’t write such a thing about a person:
          In psychiatry there is such a diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia ... There is one of the symptoms, a person sees something that is not there, and most importantly it haunts him everywhere. And here, no one sees Russophobia in the lines, but you see ...

          You, that is not a post, it is about Russophobia, Jews and Poseidons ... wassat
  16. Comrade Kim
    Comrade Kim 10 November 2019 20: 26
    +2
    Quote: ROSS 42
    Quote: Bongo
    Try to find the price of Russian gas supplied to China in open sources.

    I can tell you that electricity to China also goes at the price of 1 ruble 25 kopecks per 1 kW / hour, this is when the average price in Russia is higher than three rubles ... In exchange, we receive not always high-quality goods (if we exclude electronics). It is this kind of Russian-Chinese "friendship" that is alarming.


    For our kindergartens, schools Chubais (and not Russia) supplies EE at 6,9 rubles per kWh.
    What did we want?
    They changed the Constitution, betraying the bowels of the vigilant oligarchs, banks to Israeli krahobory-residents (Avena, Mints, and other residents).
    So they profit from the meek people.
    And the Chinese are very tough negotiators, you will not indulge with them.
    They said they would buy EE from us only for 1.25r, and that’s it.
  17. Old Horseradish
    Old Horseradish 10 November 2019 20: 55
    0
    As always, the agents of Beijing boomed: "Chinese people are peaceful people and our friends." Think with your wooden heads how many Chinese scouts are already on our territory, how many hard workers are already who can become polite militias of the PRC at any moment. They write correctly: the border is open, there are no fortified areas, the expansion is in full swing. And the final blow is military.
  18. Robert
    Robert 11 November 2019 13: 16
    +1
    Quote: Operator
    In China, 90% of the population and 100% of the industry are located in the coastal zone 700 km deep - i.e. within the limits of radioactive plumes from explosions of 100-Mtn special warheads deployed on the Poseidon RV, the required number of which can be determined based on the 72-km coastal zone of continuous destruction of buildings and structures.

    China is building empty cities. Not only for reasons of development, the territory. Poseidon, like all other nuclear weapons, still needs to be used. Will there be political will, when everything is given for free to "Chinese partners"? About the real number of deployed "Poseidons" and their performance characteristics, as well as about the stage of design and testing, we will modestly keep silent.
  19. Operator
    Operator 11 November 2019 13: 53
    -1
    Quote: Robert
    if even the 200 millionth army rushes in (here different figures show the potential of the PLA), then what else remains to be done?

    First of all, to hit the rear - the second echelon of the invading army, the places of entry into the rocky shelters of mobile ballistic missiles and missile launchers, and, most importantly, the mobility - the remaining 1,3 billion Chinese in the 700-km coastal zone.

    It will take less than 1 hours to do everything, after which it will be possible to solve the problem with the first echelon of the invading army (left without the second echelon, rear and mobility) - accept unconditional surrender (with the aim of being used as a labor force) or burn out with tactical nuclear weapons (if not capitulates).

    According to reports, the Russian Federation’s weapons-grade plutonium reserves are of the order of 300 tons, which is equivalent to 50000 nuclear charges ranging from 100 ctn to 100 mtn - enough not only for China, but also for all other countries of the world.
    1. Bongo
      11 November 2019 14: 47
      +2
      Quote: Operator
      According to reports, the Russian Federation’s weapons-grade plutonium reserves are of the order of 300 tons, which is equivalent to 50000 nuclear charges ranging from 100 ctn to 100 mtn - enough not only for China, but also for all other countries of the world.

      Not tired of writing nonsense? Who cares how much weapons-grade plutonium we have? fool
      You are infinitely far from realities, and you have not served in the armed forces. No.
      In your opinion, how many deployed tactical charges in the troops in the Far Eastern Military District (at least tentatively) and how many operating bases of the 12 State Defense Ministry of the Russian Federation)? On which carriers are megaton-class charges deployed, how many carriers in the Far East, and what tasks are assigned to them?
      1. Operator
        Operator 11 November 2019 15: 06
        +1
        In which regiment did you serve - in the hussar? laughing

        What kind of nuclear charges can be located at the bases of the 12 State Defense Ministry of the Russian Federation in the offensive zone of the PLA and when it was in the RF Armed Forces that missile forces were eliminated, including medium-range ones ?!
        1. Bongo
          11 November 2019 15: 11
          0
          Quote: Operator
          In which regiment did you serve - in the hussar?

          At least I, unlike you, served, and the site has my colleagues.
          Quote: Operator
          What kind of nuclear charges can be located at the bases of the 12 State Defense Ministry of the Russian Federation in the offensive zone of the PLA and when it was in the RF Armed Forces that missile forces were eliminated, including medium-range ones ?!

          And where is nuclear weapons stored? You are absolutely not in the subject. No. Have you ever heard of the "Parin" object? But he, as you put it, is in the "offensive zone."
          1. Operator
            Operator 11 November 2019 15: 25
            +1
            You are confusing the situation of the late USSR with the modern Russian Federation - no one is going to fire 152-mm nuclear shells now in the presence of the "Smerch" / "Tornado-S" MLRS, Iskander OTRK, "Caliber" and R-500 missile systems.

            In terms of tactical nuclear weapons, you also don’t have the understanding that 6 kg of plutonium with tritium gain in 150 kg of a two-stage NFC rocket / rocket provides output power at the level of 300 Ktn, unlike 6 kg of plutonium without tritium gain in a single-stage NNB of 152 mm projectile capacity at the level of 10 CTN.

            But there is also the 25-Mtn three-stage combat monoblocks weighing 3 tons (with the same 6 kg of plutonium and tritium in the first stage), designed to deliver missiles of the RS-26 type at a range of 5500 km.

            So see? laughing
            1. Bongo
              11 November 2019 15: 28
              0
              Quote: Operator
              You are confusing the situation of the late USSR with the modern Russian Federation - no one is going to fire 152-mm nuclear shells now in the presence of the "Smerch" / "Tornado-S" MLRS, Iskander OTRK, "Caliber" and R-500 missile systems.

              In terms of nuclear weapons, you also don’t have the understanding that 6 kg of plutonium with tritium gain as part of 150 kg of NFC rocket has a power of 300 ctn, in contrast to 6 kg of tritium gain with tritium gain as part of BNC of an 152 mm projectile with power of 10 Ctn.

              But there is also the 25-Mtn three-stage combat monoblocks weighing 3 tons (with those 6 kg of plutonium and tritium in the first stage), designed for delivery by medium-range missiles of the PC-26 type.

              It is clear that the autumn exacerbation is not over yet. No. Or, again, a breakdown with a parallel universe? This nonsense is even funny to comment on.
              1. Operator
                Operator 11 November 2019 15: 31
                0
                How are you with the weather in Jaffa - warms up? laughing
                1. Bongo
                  11 November 2019 15: 32
                  0
                  Quote: Operator
                  How are you with the weather in Jaffa - warms up?

                  In Komsomolsk it is snowing. I would have thrown the picture, but it’s already night.
      2. abc_alex
        abc_alex 11 November 2019 16: 49
        0
        Quote: Bongo
        In your opinion, how many deployed tactical charges in the troops in the Far Eastern Military District

        And you can really explain why, in the case of China, use precisely tactical nuclear weapons. This is the weapon of the battlefield and the immediate rear. Do you really think it is possible to withstand even if not 100, but the 50 millionth army of China on the battlefield? Don't you think you are fabricating? The war of the Russian Federation and China, like the war of the Russian Federation and NATO without strategic strikes on enemy territory, is doomed to defeat for us. If you do not use strategic nuclear forces in the first minutes, causing catastrophic losses, then it’s better to just give up otherwise they will interrupt trenches. Yes, and why then all these strategic nuclear forces?
        1. Bongo
          11 November 2019 16: 53
          +3
          Quote: abc_alex
          And you can really explain why, in the case of China, use precisely tactical nuclear weapons.

          We have no other way to restrain the advance of the Chinese ground forces with multiple numerical superiority. This scenario is being worked out at all the major exercises taking place in the Far Eastern Federal District, about which there is information in open sources.
          1. abc_alex
            abc_alex 11 November 2019 17: 00
            +1
            Quote: Bongo
            We have no other way to restrain the advance of the Chinese ground forces with multiple numerical superiority

            BUT...
            Are you sure that this is what is considered a priority scenario, and the development of strategic attacks simply does not fall into the open? I understand that it’s impossible to shoot a million people with a machine gun, but is the threat of losing industry and 150 million in the rear less frightening than losing a milion on the battlefield? Do you agree that China will throw back a strike by strategists in the rear 50-60 years ago?
            1. Bongo
              11 November 2019 17: 10
              +1
              Quote: abc_alex
              Are you sure that this is what is considered a priority scenario, and the development of strategic attacks simply does not fall into the open?

              I write only about what I know, and what is easy to verify. Also, for certain reasons, I'm not badly informed about the alignment of forces in the Far East.
              Quote: abc_alex
              Do you agree that China’s blow to the 50-60 years ago will strike the strategists in the rear?

              And you do not agree that the Chinese infantry raids are no less dangerous for us?
              1. abc_alex
                abc_alex 11 November 2019 18: 59
                0
                Quote: Bongo
                And you do not agree that the Chinese infantry raids are no less dangerous for us?

                Certainly. This is what is called "nuclear deterrence." But I believe that a potential Armageddian who can arrange our strategic nuclear forces in China makes any attempt to capture Siberia and the Far East by the Chinese completely senseless. Simply by starting a war in the status of an industrial giant, China will end it in the status of a supernumerary agrarian colony from an infected territory.

                But in the south and southeast, China has no nuclear powers ...
                1. Bongo
                  12 November 2019 01: 57
                  +1
                  Quote: abc_alex
                  But in the south and southeast, China has no nuclear powers ...

                  Are you ... India is not a nuclear power?
                  1. abc_alex
                    abc_alex 12 November 2019 10: 16
                    +2
                    Quote: Bongo
                    Are you ... India is not a nuclear power?

                    There and besides India there is room to move. Burma, Bangladesh, Vietnam in the south. In the West, all of Central Asia.
                    1. Bongo
                      13 November 2019 10: 37
                      0
                      Quote: abc_alex
                      There and besides India there is room to move. Burma, Bangladesh, Vietnam in the south.

                      So I don’t understand, we are already excluding India from the list? As for Vietnam, it is not just "drifting" towards the United States.
                      1. abc_alex
                        abc_alex 14 November 2019 13: 22
                        +2
                        Quote: Bongo
                        So I don’t understand, we are already excluding India from the list? As for Vietnam, it is not just "drifting" towards the United States.


                        It’s better to ask the Chinese. But I think that India’s 90-110 tactical nuclear charges with a maximum capacity of up to 30 kilotons are not the same as 517 deployed strategic missiles of Russia with a capacity of up to 8 megatons.
            2. Alexey LK
              Alexey LK 12 November 2019 04: 06
              +2
              A nuclear strike "on capitals and rear areas" will throw everyone back a couple of centuries - both the one who was hit and the one who will be hit in return. But the use of tactical nuclear weapons on its territory against enemy troops is not a reason for the enemy to launch a suicidal "doomsday".
              1. abc_alex
                abc_alex 12 November 2019 10: 24
                0
                Quote: Alexey LK
                A nuclear strike "on capitals and rear areas" will throw everyone back a couple of centuries - both the one who was hit and the one who will be hit in return. But the use of tactical nuclear weapons on its territory against enemy troops is not a reason for the enemy to launch a suicidal "doomsday".


                This is the doctrine of "limited nuclear war". The statesmen moved something similar in the 70s. At the same time, its utopianism was proved.
                1. Bongo
                  12 November 2019 13: 05
                  +2
                  Quote: abc_alex
                  This is the doctrine of "limited nuclear war". The statesmen moved something similar in the 70s. At the same time, its utopianism was proved.

                  It was not only the state people who moved. I will give you an example from Soviet realities, it is not a secret, although we do not like to talk about it. During the Soviet era, a significant part of the S-75, S-200, and even low-altitude S-125 deployed in the border areas were prepared for the use of missiles with "special" combat units. The warheads were stored in the brigade-level "nuclear vaults", and in the "special period" could be quickly docked to anti-aircraft missiles. Although the USSR officially announced that it was not the first to use nuclear weapons, this apparently concerned the strategic nuclear forces. Upon detection of many group targets that invaded the airspace of the USSR, the decision to use such missiles was made at the level of the OA air defense. And the Americans knew about it. Do you think this would be a "limited nuclear war"?
                  1. abc_alex
                    abc_alex 12 November 2019 22: 17
                    0
                    Quote: Bongo
                    this is not a secret, although we do not like to talk about it.


                    But everyone who is interested in the history of weapons knows about this. Nuclear warheads were installed on missiles of all "large" air defense / missile defense systems.
                    wink

                    Quote: Bongo
                    Do you think this would be a "limited nuclear war"?

                    And just that does not matter. Such weapons were used only in conditions of real mass air raid or air defense breakthrough. And in those realities this could only happen if a decision were made to launch a nuclear strike against the USSR. Before air defense would use these missiles, strategic missiles would have already gone towards the United States. The early warning system still worked at much greater distances.
                    1. Bongo
                      13 November 2019 10: 35
                      +2
                      Quote: abc_alex
                      And just that does not matter. Such weapons were used only in conditions of real mass air raid or air defense breakthrough.

                      You just do not understand the specifics of air defense. I already wrote above:
                      Quote: Bongo
                      Upon detection of many group targets that invaded the airspace of the USSR, the decision to use such missiles was made at the level of OA air defense.

                      Quote: abc_alex
                      Before air defense would use these missiles, strategic missiles would have already gone towards the United States.
                      Why would it be? Scenarios worked out a variety of different. I’ll tell you a little secret: the military are the biggest pacifists.
                      1. abc_alex
                        abc_alex 14 November 2019 13: 15
                        +1
                        Quote: Bongo
                        You just do not understand the specifics of air defense. I already wrote above:


                        I didn't get it. And in your opinion, "the multitude of group targets that have invaded the airspace of the USSR" why will they do this? To dump money containers to Russians? This development of events meant one thing and 100 percent - the beginning of a full-scale nuclear war by the United States and NATO. This automatically triggered a retaliatory counter-thermonuclear strike against NATO and the United States in the first place. And the air defense already ensured the interception of the carriers as far as possible. The USSR was not going to defend itself unrequitedly. Actually, the entire doctrine of nuclear deterrence was built on that - the inevitable defeat of the US territory in any attempt to attack the USSR. Destruction guaranteed.
                        That's why I say - the use of nuclear weapons for air defense / missile defense does not matter.

                        Quote: Bongo
                        I’ll tell you a little secret: the military are the biggest pacifists.

                        You will be surprised, but I know that. wink
                2. The comment was deleted.
                3. Alexey LK
                  Alexey LK 14 November 2019 20: 22
                  +1
                  Quote: abc_alex
                  This is the doctrine of "limited nuclear war". The statesmen moved something similar in the 70s. At the same time, its utopianism was proved.

                  You certainly do not confuse a defensive war with an offensive? For the defending side, the use of nuclear weapons on their territory by advancing enemy troops is a matter of survival, and this is logical and justified. But for the advancing side - this will only become a matter of impossibility to defeat the defending side by military means, but by no means a threat to existence. Therefore, answering this with the use of their tactical, and even more strategic nuclear weapons on the defensive side is not justified (they didn’t use your territory!) And therefore it will be tantamount to launching Armageddon. Thus, for the advancing side, this can indeed be a utopia, but for the defending side, by no means. Possible inadequate responses by decision makers are a matter of separate discussion. By the way, there is a possibility when the described scenario is the goal of the advancing side.
  20. Operator
    Operator 11 November 2019 15: 08
    +1
    Quote: Bongo
    You, that is not a post, it is about Russophobia, Jews

    You flatter yourself.
    1. Bongo
      11 November 2019 15: 13
      0
      Quote: Operator
      You flatter yourself.

      Not at all, especially since the quote is directly related to you. I can still find it, right?
      1. Operator
        Operator 11 November 2019 15: 32
        -1
        You better learn Russian grammar - "not post" laughing
        1. Bongo
          11 November 2019 15: 35
          0
          Quote: Operator
          You better learn Russian grammar

          At least no one writes to me about paranoid schizophrenia ... wink
          1. Operator
            Operator 11 November 2019 15: 43
            0
            They write to you about paranoid Russophobia laughing
            1. Bongo
              11 November 2019 15: 45
              0
              Quote: Operator
              They write to you about paranoid Russophobia

              Yes. yes But only paranoid schizophrenics. wink
              1. Operator
                Operator 11 November 2019 15: 47
                +1
                Sleep peacefully at your place of residence - we will somehow deal with the PLA ourselves.
                1. Bongo
                  11 November 2019 15: 50
                  0
                  Quote: Operator
                  Sleep peacefully at your place of residence - we will somehow deal with the PLA ourselves.

                  Yeah ... you figure it out. Have you ever been to the Far East? I once proposed to Damantsev to organize an excursion, but he modestly said nothing.
                  1. Operator
                    Operator 11 November 2019 15: 59
                    0
                    During the period of work in the federal ministry - repeatedly (from Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky and Magadan to Khabarovsk and Vladivostok).
                    1. Bongo
                      11 November 2019 16: 04
                      +1
                      Quote: Operator
                      During the period of work in the federal ministry - repeatedly (from Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky and Magadan to Khabarovsk and Vladivostok)

                      If you are familiar with the Far Eastern realities, why then at times write such wildest nonsense?
                      If you were in Khabarovsk, then you can easily tell which street the headquarters of the Far Eastern Military District is located, and what is installed in front of its main entrance?
                      Minutes to answer, I'm sure it will be enough.
                      1. Operator
                        Operator 11 November 2019 16: 19
                        0
                        I drove several times in the center of Khabarovsk in an official car and for the first time they showed me the main buildings of the city, but God kill me, I didn’t guess what names of the streets they are located on (especially since I didn’t need this information - the official service driver cars perfectly oriented in their city).

                        I also visited most of the regional, provincial and republican centers of our country (as well as the USA and Europe - on business trips, of course), but I didn’t recognize the names of streets anywhere laughing
                      2. Bongo
                        11 November 2019 16: 24
                        +1
                        Quote: Operator
                        I drove several times in the center of Khabarovsk in a company car and for the first time they showed me the main buildings of the city, but for God’s sake, I didn’t have any idea to name the streets on which they are located (the more so because I did not need this information - the official driver cars perfectly oriented in their city).

                        I’ll tell you more - I also visited most of the regional, provincial and republican centers of our country (as well as the United States and Europe - on business trips, of course), but I didn’t recognize the street names anywhere

                        I'm not surprised. No. A very characteristic jump to you.
                        What kind of business trips can we talk about when you were deprived of the opportunity to apply for a weapon and driver’s license for medical reasons?
                      3. Operator
                        Operator 11 November 2019 16: 32
                        +1
                        From the AKM I fired at the SA training regiment during the summer training camp, from the first time I performed all the exercises at "good" (with the then visual acuity -1), I was no longer attracted to small arms or hunting weapons as an object of use.

                        Personal cars (Skoda, Volkswagen, Audi) I manage from time immemorial. What else interests you? laughing
                      4. Bongo
                        11 November 2019 16: 38
                        +1
                        Quote: Operator
                        From the AKM I fired at the SA training regiment during the summer training camp, from the first time I performed all the exercises at "good" (with the then visual acuity -1), I was no longer attracted to small arms or hunting weapons as an object of use.
                        Personal cars (Skoda, Volkswagen, Audi) I manage from time immemorial.

                        Of course I believe you ... wink As well as about ZGRLS on the islands in the South China Sea.
                        There is such a thing - reputation. First you work for her, then she works for you. Who will believe a person who has a reputation as a liar and a xenophobe who is not responsible for his words and unable to admit his wrong?
  21. Old26
    Old26 11 November 2019 16: 36
    -1
    Quote: Bongo
    In Komsomolsk it is snowing. I would take a picture, but it's already night

    Lucky. There is no question of what to wear. And then a pancake ... Today only 23 degrees, tomorrow they promise 25. It's clear on your feet, sandals, but whether to wear "pindjak with karamanAmi" or not - you will have to decide tomorrow morning before work
    1. Bongo
      11 November 2019 16: 41
      0
      Quote: Old26
      Lucky. No question what to wear. And then damn it ...

      Waving without looking?
  22. Operator
    Operator 11 November 2019 16: 41
    0
    Quote: Bongo
    There is such a thing - reputation

    There is such a thing - Russophobia.

    Which does not allow us to understand that on a business trip around the country you are patronized by regional comrades, and on a foreign business trip you are part of an official delegation, and do not roam the streets on your own.

    Another thing is a tour, but I never go where I once was on official needs.
    1. Bongo
      11 November 2019 16: 46
      +1
      Quote: Operator
      Quote: Bongo
      There is such a thing - reputation

      There is such a thing - Russophobia.

      Andrey, I’ve already said about this, but I’ll repeat it for you, it’s not difficult for me:
      Quote: spektr9
      In psychiatry there is such a diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia ... There is one of the symptoms, a person sees something that is not there, and most importantly it haunts him everywhere. And here, no one sees Russophobia in the lines, but you see ...

      I can easily find ten similar quotes about you.
      1. Operator
        Operator 11 November 2019 16: 51
        +1
        Schizophrenia is primarily a split personality, but you will not deny that I am unambiguous in your opinion about you laughing
        1. Bongo
          11 November 2019 16: 57
          +1
          Quote: Operator
          Schizophrenia is primarily a split personality, but you will not deny that I am unambiguous in your opinion about you

          Examples of split personality and inappropriate statements in your comments are numerous. In this regard, your opinion is absolutely parallel to me.
  23. Old26
    Old26 11 November 2019 17: 19
    -1
    Quote: Bongo
    Waving without looking?

    With pleasure laughing The daughter sometimes speaks. At least soon New Year. Maybe it will snow ...
    1. zyablik.olga
      zyablik.olga 12 November 2019 01: 25
      +3
      Quote: Old26
      With pleasure, the daughter sometimes speaks. At least soon New Year. Maybe it will snow ...

      Hello Vladimir You will not like our winter. In Komsomolsk it is very heavy. Frosts up to -40, while strong winds with high humidity are not rare. The first snow usually falls in mid-late October and lies until mid-April.
  24. Old26
    Old26 12 November 2019 11: 26
    -1
    Quote: zyablik.olga
    Quote: Old26
    With pleasure, the daughter sometimes speaks. At least soon New Year. Maybe it will snow ...

    Hello Vladimir You will not like our winter. In Komsomolsk it is very heavy. Frosts up to -40, while strong winds with high humidity are not rare. The first snow usually falls in mid-late October and lies until mid-April.

    Hello Olga! What is your winter, I guess. Mom in the early 50s after graduating from a medical school was distributed in Komsomolsk-on-Amur. I don’t know how it is now, but from her words then the climate was vile. and swamps. In short, I got tuberculosis there. Thanks to their head of the medical unit, who (a graduate of the first graduation of Makarenko school), who arranged for all young girls to be transferred to more favorable places (to the European part). Mom got to Kaliningrad, or rather to Guards.
    But with winter we really have a problem. Snow is often the scarcest product in winter. When the temperatures were in "-15" - "-20 °" I don't even remember. About twenty years, I guess. And sometimes you want snow, at least at the end of December - in January laughing
  25. Operator
    Operator 13 November 2019 11: 02
    0
    Quote: abc_alex
    Nuclear warheads were installed on missiles of all "large" air defense / missile defense systems

    Special warheads for anti-aircraft missiles are no longer installed due to the double self-locking of radars and air defense / missile defense due to airborne nuclear explosions - first EMR (for 10-15 minutes), and then areas of ionized air (from several hours to several days).

    Plus, in a nuclear conflict, the attacking side will use the tactical technique "first-second" - the leading missile / gliding bomb will detonate the special warhead even before the line of its interception by air defense / missile defense, depriving the defending side of external target designation and homing (excluding optical - in the case of supersonic missiles). After that, the target is easily hit by the ammunition following the leader.
  26. vindigo
    vindigo 4 January 2020 19: 26
    +1
    South Korea and the most important Chinese enemy, Japan, will evaporate.