6,8 mm cartridge: what is behind the numbers?

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So, in the previous article we went (maybe not in such detail) on rifles, which are completely "tomorrow". Which should change the modern caliber 5,56 mm (and, possibly, 7,62 mm) to 6,8 mm.

To replace M4 in the US Army: not HK416! 23 October 2019 21 943 71.



Now it’s the turn of the cartridges. After all, such a simple thing as a cartridge is a serious component in any army in the world. And it’s not as simple now as it seems.

We start with the table that was already placed in the above material.



Here, it is perfectly painted over the years when, what ammunition will be given time and (most probably the most important) money. It’s probably worth introducing the participants to make it clearer.

Combat Projectile - combat ammunition.

Reduced Range Ammunition (RRA) - Training Ammunition.

Combat Tracer - combat tracer.

RRA Tracer - training tracer. Training, if we understood correctly, with a reduced powder charge, since the literal translation of RRA is a reduced-range ammunition.

CCMCK - training kit for training in conditions close to real.

This ammunition will become the object of close attention, because it causes us simply a mountain of questions. And we will certainly return to it. In the meantime, here is a video that explains the mechanics of SSMSK, it is clear from it why we are so excited.



Well, now let's go on the ammunition.

The fact that the guys at Devcom are not stupid is beyond doubt. The development plan for an innovative US Army soldier rearmament program is well written and takes into account all aspects of preparation and use.

The order for new ammunition was completed by all companies participating in the competition. Now we will try to understand in more detail what the best gunsmiths of the world came up with.

Conventionally, all presented cartridges can be divided into two main categories - hybrid and telescopic.

Hybrid Ammunition:

6,8 mm cartridge: what is behind the numbers?


Its distinctive feature is a two-component sleeve, which consists of a metal capsule, a bottom and a polymer body of the sleeve.

It is difficult to say which concrete polymer is used in the manufacture, naturally, all this is kept in the strictest confidence by the manufacturers. But if you delve into the relevant literature, you can draw some conclusions.

To plastics with a high melting point include fluoroplastics and polyamides, as well as heat-resistant plastic Niplon. For example, the melting point of the fluoroplastic is 327 ° C (for fluoroplast-4 and 4Д). Polyamides (caprolon, caprolite) have a softening temperature of 190-200 ° C, and the melting point of such a plastic is 215-220 ° C. Glass and carbon fiber Niplon has a melting point above 300 ° C.

Of the entire variety of polymers, plastics based on silicone resins are suitable for operation at high temperatures. The maximum operating temperature of such plastic can reach 700 ° C, which, in principle, is quite suitable.

Again, in addition to temperature conditions, it is also necessary to combat the expansion of powder gases, which, in addition to heat resistance, also adds strength problems. For some reason, no one wants to see the swollen sleeve in the bore after shooting.

However, we can say with confidence that this is not cheap, not cheap at all. Of course, in the pursuit of weight loss, the price issue fades somewhat, but with the same success it is possible to fold sleeves from evergreen pieces of paper with the presidents.

Telescopic cartridge:



That's true, reminiscent of "innovative" ammunition. In the last article, we showed his work.



Of course, a lot of questions are left by the concept of how such weapons. Although, if you look at it from the other side, you get only one moving part that does not bear axial load. Looks pretty reliable. Yes, and the recoil seems ridiculous, because now you do not hit half a kilogram of iron in the shoulder when fired.

The system is interesting precisely because it combines the German development of a cartridgeless cartridge, where the bullet is embedded in the powder charge. There was such a development on the prototype rifle of the future G11.





In the new cartridge, the primary propellant charge “sends out” the bullet, while the secondary one accelerates it. Well, there was a time when we joked about “pocket artillery” ... Apparently, this time has come.

Please note that the sizes of the 7,62 and 6,5 sleeves (subsequently changed to 6,8) are identical.



This suggests that the NATO-loved element of modularity has not disappeared, and now, after simply replacing the barrel with the required caliber, you can get a more powerful rifle or even a “Marxmen”.

And for a machine gun, this is generally a regular procedure.

A telescopic cartridge looks more preferable for use, as more innovative and with fairly balanced performance.

Now about what entails a change not only in ammunition, but also in caliber.

Re-equipment is an expensive business, new weapons, new ammunition. A wider and longer cartridge needs a magazine, a longer and wider one. And with the change in the size of the store, we begin to think about the size of pouches. If you even figure it out “by eye,” it becomes clear that the standard cartridge pouch for the 5,56 x 30 store, which allowed it to be used for two stores, will now deal with only one 6,8 * 30.

Of course, a country with such an army budget puts its soldiers in modular systems with the ability to change pouches. But there are also full-fledged vests, which will have to be abandoned. Or, as an option, sew new ones.

Verdict.

At first glance, the program to change the caliber, cartridge and rifle / light machine gun looks very expensive. But further on, such an interesting dependency diagram may appear that even the budget of the US Army will shudder.
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115 comments
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  1. +5
    31 October 2019 05: 53
    Hmm, the weapon of the future is created from such experiments.
    1. 0
      2 November 2019 03: 33
      Improving the individual security of a fighter requires increasing the caliber of small arms.
  2. +3
    31 October 2019 05: 54
    "For example, the melting point of fluoroplastic is 327 ° C", purely hypothetically, after which shot the machine gun will simply stop firing, 100 ... 200 shots.
    1. +5
      31 October 2019 06: 15
      Yes, it’s been shooting for ten years now and doesn’t refuse. Hunting cartridges have been plastic for decades. Paper or brass rarity. You will find figures
      1. +13
        31 October 2019 06: 27
        Shooting a queue?
        1. +3
          31 October 2019 06: 35
          I agree, the shooting is important.
        2. -2
          31 October 2019 07: 01
          There is no line. Is there a difference?
          Modern pistols and PPs are so light because they use plastic and shoot nothing. Including the queue
          1. 0
            31 October 2019 20: 38
            What are you carrying? The barrel and cartridges are steel.
            1. 0
              1 November 2019 02: 09
              Right The frame does not get warm when shooting.
              You decide and articulate what you are trying to prove.
              And with the words more careful.
        3. 0
          5 November 2019 17: 24
          Who is the hunting weapon in turn checks? We have prohibited the circulation of such.
          But in general, single-handedly at speed, the barrel was heated red-hot more than once. IPSC allows this. So the turn itself holds the plastic. But this is a smooth barrel and the pressure there is not rifled at all.
      2. +4
        31 October 2019 07: 09
        The thickness of the shell wall and rate of fire are very different in combat from hunting and even smooth-bore weapons, in hunting rifling, do you have plastic shells?
        1. 0
          31 October 2019 07: 27
          No rifled hunting weapons do not have cartridges with plastic sleeves, just as they do not have a combat one. The fact that the article is written only research. I am 100% sure that similar ones are being held here. After all, they came up with a partially combustible sleeve for a tank shell. I don’t know if there is such a thing in other countries, but we have a very long time too. So why can not there be plastic shells for military weapons.
          I don’t understand this
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          The shell wall thickness and rate of fire are very different in combat from hunting

          If you mean the differences between the ammunition and the hunting cartridges in these parameters, then you are mistaken. They are made on the same machines. Too expensive to reconfigure production.
          Look at 13 minutes just talking about it.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iygm_O94toc
          The benefits of plastic sleeves are great. First of all, the cartridge itself will become much easier, which means the fighter will be able to take more cartridge with him, if it breaks when firing a metal sleeve or blowing it up, unfortunately it is not uncommon, consider this fighter to leave the battlefield. Knocking out such a sleeve from the chamber can only be done with a hammer and some kind of mother. Plastic is much easier to extract.
          Once again I am 100% sure that we are also conducting similar surveys.
          1. +2
            31 October 2019 14: 05
            There was a rhetorical question about plastic sleeves for hunting rifles, and if you do not see the difference between a cartridge for a smooth-bore hunting weapon and a cartridge for a rifled weapon, then you can not bother about the wall thickness and the rate of fire.
          2. +2
            31 October 2019 14: 07
            And yes, the breakage of the sleeve is much worse than bloating.
          3. -1
            1 November 2019 03: 00
            happens and not uncommon

            In percentages, read "not uncommon"!
          4. +2
            1 November 2019 09: 26
            Quote: YOUR
            First of all, the cartridge itself will become much easier, which means the fighter will be able to take more cartridge with him, if it breaks when firing a metal sleeve or blowing it up, unfortunately it is not uncommon, consider this fighter to leave the battlefield. Knocking out such a sleeve from the chamber can only be done with a hammer and some kind of mother. Plastic is much easier to extract.


            Do you think that the limitation of infantry ammunition occurs precisely in mass and not in volume?

            Do you understand that it will be impossible to knock out a plastic sleeve even with a hammer and a ramrod, if anything? It’s good if you crush it, filling the mechanism with a bunch of fragments of different sizes. Otherwise, you can simply pierce through, "polishing" with a softened polymer all the microcavities of the charging chamber.
            It all depends on how hot the trunk will be.
        2. +1
          31 October 2019 08: 09
          Some people forget that long-term storage is important for the army, what will happen to plastic ?!
          1. -3
            31 October 2019 14: 35
            Explain the example of pistols Glock, GSH-18, Boa constrictor, PP-2000. What will happen to them during long-term storage
            1. 0
              31 October 2019 20: 39
              And where are these pistols? they have ordinary liners. Not plastic. Where have you seen PLASTIC shells at war trunks?
              1. -3
                1 November 2019 02: 12
                I have not yet seen plastic sleeves for military weapons. But here the question was asked what will happen to plastic during long-term storage, all of the listed weapons have plastic frames.
                1. +1
                  1 November 2019 03: 06
                  Do not turn on the fool, pliz. You have probably never heard that plastic is different.
                  1. -1
                    1 November 2019 09: 19
                    So you answered all your questions.
                2. -1
                  1 November 2019 13: 24
                  Are you specially fooling around?
            2. +1
              1 November 2019 09: 36
              Quote: YOUR
              Explain the example of pistols Glock, GSH-18, Boa constrictor, PP-2000. What will happen to them during long-term storage


              It depends on how and how much to store. Most polymers are amorphous, that is, they lose shape over time. Long polymer molecules can fragment, for example, under the influence of sunlight. Again, do not forget, the sleeve is just a container for a propellant charge. And the propellant in itself is not the most inert substance.
              1. 0
                1 November 2019 11: 44
                Do you think the developers will not take this into account?
      3. +4
        31 October 2019 12: 26
        Have you seen hunters with a machine gun? How many shots will the hunter make in a row? One, two or four maximum. The hunting trunk will not warm up.
        1. 0
          31 October 2019 13: 51
          What are you talking about?
          1. +1
            31 October 2019 20: 06
            You wrote that they use plastic sleeves in hunting rifles. In my opinion, comparing a cartridge for a hunting rifle and a cartridge for a machine gun, a machine gun is not entirely correct. The polymer sleeve can simply melt at high temperature, and after a hundred or two shots it will be high.
        2. 0
          31 October 2019 14: 38
          Quote: Herman 4223
          The hunting trunk will not warm up.

          Have you seen the shooters of athletes? For training in a couple of hundred shots as a hello. Pads are smoking. And the trunks for six months in the trash.
          1. +1
            31 October 2019 20: 10
            I don’t argue with that. Recently there was a report. AK12 was tested, after 700 shots the barrel was torn apart.
            1. 0
              1 November 2019 02: 05
              Arrows athletes with a smoothbore. For firing use the same cartridges with plastic sleeves.
              In general, the argument is about nothing.
              I remember those times when the Austrians began to promote their Glock. In laughter, he was to buy pestles in a children's store, but it turned out that he was one of the best pistols in the world. I am sure for all 100 that in the end the same thing will happen with cartridges. They will switch to plastic sleeves. Progress still does not stand still.
        3. +1
          1 November 2019 10: 31
          I saw, and he hunted with him. BTR with SGMT, a couple of machine guns, five people, a night and a school of goats. Horseradish with him on the go where you get dangling along the hills.
          1. +1
            1 November 2019 11: 48
            Well, you are a barbarian. Although MTLB, Luna, PKT were like that.
            1. +1
              1 November 2019 12: 10
              No, we had a "fiftieth" on the basis of "Ptukha". But at least he was floating, although there was nowhere to swim except on the Amur. Yes, and it was not my idea, the deputy chief of the battalion, Genrikh Rytov, wanted a goat. As a result, only one goat was swatted, and that one was finished off from the AKM. But we did not have the "Moon", it was not made by hands, but it shone well. What kind of animals did you hunt? smile
              1. +1
                1 November 2019 12: 41
                Yes the same thing in the same places
                1. 0
                  1 November 2019 13: 24
                  It's nice to meet almost a fellow countryman, really. hi drinks
                  1. +1
                    1 November 2019 13: 26
                    Similarly. In the Amur region it was. But the technique is not ours, the neighbors. They invited to hunt because the area knew better. In those days he served at the point.
                    1. +1
                      1 November 2019 14: 01
                      My regiment was in the village of Babstovo (EAO), we were the last three-year-olds and the time was fun. smile
                      1. +1
                        1 November 2019 14: 42
                        Hmm, is this the year 1967?
                      2. +1
                        1 November 2019 14: 52
                        66 - 69 years "Where is the river, and where is the estate." So many years have passed, and it is impossible to forget the service, read - the best years. smile soldier
      4. 0
        7 November 2019 00: 02
        Shooting modes are completely different. Comparing incorrectly.
        1. 0
          7 November 2019 02: 59
          Do you have any concrete evidence or everything at the level I think so. Do you think that the designer does not take these factors into account?
    2. -3
      31 October 2019 06: 44
      Mattresses do not fire bursts. And with such a super cartridge they will publish a training brochure in which there will be an order to shoot only to defeat. The store has 30 rounds, which means 30 corpses. Not any overwhelming fire or shooting somewhere in the direction of the enemy, because civilians can suffer.
    3. +1
      31 October 2019 22: 14
      Quote: Strashila
      "For example, the melting point of fluoroplastic is 327 ° C."

      And what ? And the ignition temperature of smoke powder is 300 degrees, and smokeless 200 degrees. And the burning temperature of gunpowder is altogether 2500 degrees, while the brass melts at 850 degrees .. And what do we care about the temperature of 327 degrees, even if this is the melting point of the fluoroplastic? fool
  3. sen
    +4
    31 October 2019 06: 47
    It seems that this is another money scam. What kind of star wars. The problem of body armor is of course, but it is better to solve it combined: partly due to an increase in the initial velocity of the bullet, partly due to an increase in caliber. The weight of the cartridges, the return is less, and the armor penetration is more.
    1. +3
      31 October 2019 15: 09
      Quote: sen
      It seems that this is another money scam

      yeah, literally one-in-one repetition of the rifle-intermediate-low-pulse epic (.30-06 - 7,62 × 51 NATO - 5,56 × 45) of the last century.
      Then they will say that with automatic fire, the weapon is uncontrollable, you need a cartridge with lower recoil bully
      Swam, we know ...
  4. +4
    31 October 2019 07: 00
    And why not upgrade the Czechoslovak cartridge 7,62x45?


    Comparison of cartridges PP 43 (7,92 × 33) M 43 (7,62 × 39) M 52 (7,62 × 45 mm)
    caliber (mm) 7,92 × 33 mm 7,62 × 39 mm 7,62 × 45 mm
    Cartridge weight (g) 16,7 16,5 18,7
    Bullet weight (g) 6,95 7,90 8,40
    Powder charge mass (g) 1,40 1,40 1,75
    Muzzle velocity (m/s) 650 710 745
    Bullet energy, (J) 1468 1991 2311
  5. 0
    31 October 2019 07: 06
    this competition to replace only 7.62 NATO, to replace the Marxman rifle and machine gun, certainly not 5,56, there are few participants, half of the noonima and bullpup were presented, given that American experts put ergonomics of weapons above all else.
    1. 0
      31 October 2019 15: 15
      Quote: Hakka
      this competition to replace only 7.62 NATO, to replace the Marxman rifle and machine gun, certainly not 5,56

      but no. Again they want a single rifle-machine-gun-Marxman cartridge for all-all-all.
      But given the American fragmentation in the procurement of weapons and ammunition among departments - it will not be surprising if the USMC or the National Guard reject this dubious innovation (dubious - because the cartridge is too powerful).
  6. +2
    31 October 2019 08: 07
    Oh wey, in the last article they wrote that Americans are rich, and now they "shudder." Although their military constantly whines about the lack of funds. "We will see" what comes of it.
  7. +1
    31 October 2019 08: 50
    I can imagine how the places of use of cartridges with a polymer sleeve will be filthy.
    If now civilians can collect brass and turn in, then after new cartridges, only burned plastic will remain, which will poison the earth for decades later. sad
    1. +1
      31 October 2019 08: 57
      By the way, environmental friendliness is also declared as an item of requirements for ammunition. Apparently some kind of biodegradable plastic will
      1. +5
        31 October 2019 10: 30
        There are simply no biodegradable plastics for mass use. No one. The fact that the network just quickly turns into small pieces that continue to remain plastic. And mess up everything request
        1. +3
          31 October 2019 11: 08
          Well, if I'm wrong, they began to find microorganisms that are capable of digesting polymers. And if plastic does not decrease in the foreseeable future, then the selection of microorganisms will begin in nature in terms of the efficiency of its processing. Indeed, plastic is embedded in energy, which only needs to be converted correctly. Plus this is a whole niche almost not occupied by other organisms. So after a while, perhaps, we will see a picture where the plastic will not be disposed of, but rather protected from biodegradation
          1. +1
            31 October 2019 22: 44
            Organisms may have begun to be found, I quite believe. What's next? Will you multiply them and launch them into the same Pacific Ocean? Where, in terms of area, France is filled with this slag. Before the "selection of microorganisms in nature according to the degree of efficiency of its processing" begins, a fierce number of living organisms that are being poisoned by them will die. So we will see a slightly different picture ...
            1. -1
              1 November 2019 00: 23
              Quote: frog
              You multiply them and run them into the same Pacific Ocean? Where already in area this slag France is inundated.

              Why propagate them? The whole question is only in the appearance of an effective microorganism, then it will begin to occupy a niche, and since it is practically free, the growth in the number of such a microorganism will take on an explosive character. Bacteria are extremely aggressive creatures.
              1. 0
                1 November 2019 14: 07
                Cool. And what will it lead to, this growth? And since they (bacteria) also mutate at a good speed, can you tell me how this can end? Although, this is precisely in line with global trends, first come up with an ambush to earn a penny, and then heroically cut it. A typical example of this approach are the same solar panels .... Yes, and much more ..... Good luck .....
                1. 0
                  1 November 2019 23: 30
                  Quote: frog
                  Can you tell me how this can end?

                  The fact that we will need to come up with is not how to get rid of plastic, but how to protect it from biodegradation.

                  Quote: frog
                  Although, this is precisely in line with global trends, first come up with an ambush for a penny

                  And it’s not people who come up with it.

                  Quote: frog
                  And what will it lead to, this growth?

                  To faster destruction of plastic in the environment.
              2. 0
                1 November 2019 15: 04
                And why did you decide that they will multiply and eat plastic solely from waste? After exiting the closed system (laboratory / landfill / landfill), they will eat everything they reach, including the fact that they should not eat.
                1. 0
                  1 November 2019 23: 33
                  And I didn’t say that only the waste will eat, as I wrote above, this is my personal opinion, the time is not far off when we have to figure out how to protect polymers from fast biodegradation (where necessary). In general, nature will gradually adapt for us, for humanity has long crossed the border when it begins to create an environment for other organisms.
                  1. 0
                    2 November 2019 00: 07
                    Quote: NordOst16
                    And I didn’t say that only the waste will eat, as I wrote above, this is my personal opinion, the time is not far off when we have to figure out how to protect polymers from fast biodegradation (where necessary).

                    Interesting thoughts, but it seems like microorganisms do not eat glass, and it is produced much longer than plastic.
                    1. -2
                      2 November 2019 00: 48
                      Well, glass is, well, very crudely speaking, silicon oxide. Those. a product of the oxidation of silicon by oxygen and there, as you might guess, there was no energy left in the bonds. But polymers are another matter - if you look at their formulas, you will notice that many carry hydrogen and carbon atoms, which, if oxidized to carbon dioxide and water, can give energy. In general, most polymers burn unlike glass, which means they contain energy that microorganisms can extract and use their needs.
                      1. 0
                        3 November 2019 20: 25
                        Well, they have already forgotten about the cartridges.
      2. +4
        31 October 2019 11: 27
        and what will happen to him after 10 years of storage?
    2. 0
      31 October 2019 15: 16
      Quote: K-50
      only burned plastic remains, which will poison the earth for decades later

      Biodegradability of this plastic - more than 300 years hi
      The green ones cry ...
  8. bar
    -2
    31 October 2019 10: 06
    More like the striped defense industry just sawing the budget
  9. +6
    31 October 2019 10: 14
    "Training, if we understood correctly, with a reduced powder charge, since the literal translation of RRA is a reduced-range ammunition. "
    There are two types of training ammunition in the US Army.
    The first is Reduced Range Ammunition. By reducing the charge, the maximum range of the bullet is 50% of the standard ammunition.
    The second is Limited Range Training Ammunition (LRTA), in which the maximum range of a bullet is 10%.
    At the same time, at distances up to 800 m, the ballistics of cartridges are the same.
    Such ammunition is available in all calibres of small arms.

    This allows you to reduce the size of training ranges, save money and a resource of weapons.
  10. 0
    31 October 2019 10: 19
    so America will switch to caliber 6.8, and it’s going to take over the whole Nata, and then, as usual, ours too. But I wrote a long time ago that 5.6 and 7.62 are just things to go from and move on to better ballistics of 6.5 mm, but you live. We’ll see.
    1. -2
      1 November 2019 03: 14
      You should not write your brilliant predictions here. Russian Defense Ministry does not read them. Therefore, write immediately to Sportloto, it has more impact!
  11. +6
    31 October 2019 10: 41
    Fluoroplastic and organosilicon as part of the sleeves are out of work - they have practically zero tensile strength in the entire temperature range.

    Only polyimide (300 degrees) and polyarylate (250 degrees) remain, in which the tensile strength at maximum operating temperature is meager 20 MPa (for brass 200 MPa). In this case, the maximum working temperature of the barrel is equal to 400 degrees (after which the barrel begins to leash with a loss of accuracy and bullet departure speed).

    Therefore, the developers of small arms for ammunition with a plastic sleeve in the NGSW competition had to pervert to the fullest - either make a detachable barrel chamber (for pushing out, rather than pulling out spent cartridges) like the TEXTRON or enter the open-fire mode like General Dynamics.
  12. +2
    31 October 2019 10: 43
    Conventionally, all presented cartridges can be divided into two main categories - hybrid and telescopic.
    Hybrid Ammunition:
    Its distinctive feature is a two-component sleeve, which consists of a metal capsule, a bottom and a polymer body of the sleeve.

    The authors forgot what they wrote in the previous article.
    Hybrid ammunition really has a two-component sleeve - a steel pallet and a brass body, what ZIG Sauer suggested.
    And cartridges with a plastic case are called PCP - polymer-cased.
  13. +1
    31 October 2019 10: 53
    Good day!
    Never special, so after the video there were questions. For example, what holds the cartridge in position in the sleeve before firing? After all, the liner should not have any limiters, tk. after firing, it must continue to move along the sleeve forward to the ejector. And without fixing the cartridge, it can "go" because of shaking forward or backward, then it will not stand on the line of the barrel. And in general, there are many clock cycles in this scheme, as if everything were on drives and motors.
    1. +2
      31 October 2019 12: 41
      The telescopic cartridge in the hinged chamber after its closure is fixed by focusing on the breech end of the barrel and in the transverse wall of the receiver.
      1. 0
        1 November 2019 16: 59
        After closing, there are no problems, everything is clear. And at the point in time when the folding chamber is open and a new cartridge is sent?
        1. 0
          1 November 2019 18: 00
          I don’t know how the cartridge is fixed in the chamber during the sending process, but I myself would have made sure that the popped-out cartridge case did not immediately leave the receiver, but only after the chamber returned to the barrel (i.e. the cartridge case would act as a cartridge retainer in the chamber )
  14. +4
    31 October 2019 10: 56
    I would stop in their place on the HK416.
    Germans removed M4 problems, accuracy remained.
    But the 5.56 cartridge bullet can be slightly strengthened - add an armored cone to the head.
    Increasing the caliber will inevitably return returns. The M16 did not have it at all, the M4 had a little bit.
    And with a new caliber, he will again begin to pound on the shoulder.
    1. +7
      31 October 2019 11: 29
      and it’s not hard to pound in bulletproof vest ... such a law. physical
      1. +7
        31 October 2019 11: 44
        Every soldier has a standard 4x wide-focus optical sight. You can not just get there, but choose an area where you can go solitary.
        Consumption of cartridges fell many times, mortality increased significantly.
        What is needed is not armor penetration, but accuracy. And recoil reduces this accuracy - it’s harder to shoot.
        1. +8
          31 October 2019 11: 47
          Well. shooting in the head is ineffective, since the head is an object with short-periodical movements, the probability of a miss is high, and the middle of the composition is just the bronic, and a reinforced chest plate
          1. +2
            31 October 2019 11: 57
            It's right. Easier to hit the center of the target. But, for example, a "two" - a cut-off from two bullets in a row - will also break a bulletproof vest. The first bullet will crush the ceramics into chips, the second will wound. I'm talking about 5.56.
            The cartridge is very lightweight, compact. We easily took 8 stores in four pouches.
            Increasing the caliber will decrease the amount of ammunition.
            Therefore, I say: it is easier to increase the bulletproof armor than to launch a new caliber.
            1. +6
              31 October 2019 12: 00
              once started - they had something in mind, it’s hardly a dull cut ... maybe. realized that the Papuans in their pure form did not remain ... and! Problems!
              1. +2
                31 October 2019 12: 05
                They started, as I understand it, to make a single weapon with a single caliber: something between an assault rifle and a machine gun. M4 did her job (even with her misfires). But the light machine gun 5.56 disappointed. I did not stop the technique, did not break. And here is a weapon that replaces both a rifle, and a light machine gun, and the usual 7.62
                1. +4
                  31 October 2019 12: 10
                  Well, yes, when personal weapons and machine guns have a different cartridge - there may be problems .. but here on a NATO scale to solve ... I do not know ...
                2. 0
                  31 October 2019 18: 56
                  Quote: voyaka uh
                  And here is a weapon that replaces both a rifle, and a light machine gun, and the usual 7.62

                  That sounds lousy. Last time, from an attempt to replace the handbrake, rifle, carbine and PP, the M14 was born.
                3. 0
                  1 November 2019 10: 46
                  Quote: voyaka uh
                  something between an assault rifle and a machine gun. M4 did her job (even with her misfires).

                  In fairness, with such a patron it will no longer be "in between." It will already be an excellent automatic rifle, without any "assault" rifle. If I understand correctly, the new cartridge is planned to be more powerful than the cartridge from the Japanese Arisaka. Do you think that automatic effective firing with such a cartridge is possible with the current rate (at least 600 rounds per minute) without resting on the ground and from awkward positions?
                  1. +2
                    1 November 2019 11: 47
                    I can’t imagine such an automatic shooting.
                    In the IDF, she was simply banned. We shot on the run
                    "two". Or aiming, stopping for a second, or "over the sight".
                    The targets of the "head" type, I remember, were almost always left untouched. laughing
                    Want to get in - sit down on your knee.
                    About automatic shooting you need to ask someone who served in the American
                    army. The site was like that, but he was banned for constant disputes.
                    1. 0
                      2 November 2019 02: 19
                      Quote: voyaka uh
                      I can’t imagine such an automatic shooting.


                      I admit, too, although I did not serve in the IDF. request
    2. +1
      31 October 2019 15: 32
      Quote: voyaka uh

      But the 5.56 cartridge bullet can be slightly strengthened - add an armored cone to the head.

      6.8 Rem SPC to the rescue - based on 5,56, it is hardly possible to achieve a significant increase in performance
      Increasing the caliber will inevitably return returns. The M16 did not have it at all, the M4 had a little bit.
      And with a new caliber, he will again begin to pound on the shoulder.

      Generally I do not understand this strange rejection by the Americans of normal DTK. After all, you can remove up to 60% of the return.
      Although ... in this new program, the built-in tactical PBBS was finally prescribed - but even then, I think this is due to the horseback of the new cartridge.
  15. +1
    31 October 2019 10: 57
    However, we can say with confidence that this is not cheap, not cheap at all.

    It will be expensive to create a new production of cartridges from new materials, and then, when the bill goes to the millions of cartridges issued, polymers will most likely be cheaper than metal.
  16. +2
    31 October 2019 11: 45
    Haha, in fact, they wrote only about the melting temperature of some plastics, which are not the fact that they are used in the new project, that's all. But the authors of the article already have two.
  17. +4
    31 October 2019 13: 10
    However, we can say with confidence that this is not cheap, not cheap at all. Of course, in the pursuit of weight loss, the price issue fades somewhat, but with the same success it is possible to fold sleeves from evergreen pieces of paper with the presidents.
    We can say with confidence that the authors in the question are guided very superficially.

    This is the production of 12,7x99 PCA ammunition for the Marine Corps at MAC. The volume of the order is 2 pieces.
    1. +7
      31 October 2019 13: 33
      For information. The number of MAC employees is 22 people. Last year, the Nordic Ammunition Company or Nammo, a joint Norwegian-Finnish company specializing in the production of ammunition, jet engines and equipment for the aerospace industry, bought its controlling stake.
      22 MAC employees produce ammunition for the US military and its NATO allies. The acquisition of the Nammo Group is expected to increase the amount of ammunition the plant can produce up to 10 million rounds per year.
      The PCA ammunition market is constantly expanding. PCP offers "in plastic" 5,56 mm NATO / .223 Rem., 7,62 mm NATO / .308 Win., 6,8 SPC (6,8x43 mm SPC), .300 Win. Mag (.300 Winchester Magnum), .338 Lapua Magnum and .50 BMG / 12.7x99mm NATO.
      PolyCase Ammunition already produces the .380 Polymer Cased Round pistol cartridge. Moreover, even in "glamorous" colors.

      Therefore, the authors' conclusions about "presidential shells" are not worth a damn.
      The exclamations of the sofa "iksperdny" community about cuts and their minus of technical information have a similar cost.
      1. +1
        31 October 2019 21: 29
        We can say with confidence that in the article you are guided superficially. A live cartridge in plastic is definitely more expensive than ordinary brass.
        By the way, since 22 people from MAC are so great, why didn’t they take part in the competition for the supply of ammunition? After all, they have experience and finally can stop thousands of millions of production
  18. 0
    31 October 2019 15: 04
    Ne spec no dolgogodny okhotnik.
    Kal. 6,5x68 samoe to dla okhoti v gorakh na bolshoe distancii.
    Balistika pochti rovnaya.
  19. 0
    31 October 2019 15: 05
    Quote: CastroRuiz
    Ne spec no dolgoletny okhotnik.
    Kal. 6,5x68 samoe to dla okhoti v gorakh na bolshoe distancii.
    Balistika pochti rovnaya.
  20. +2
    31 October 2019 15: 54
    Much more interesting in terms of goal-setting for the new "weapon-cartridge" complex is not a sleeve, but a bullet of a cartridge 6,8x51 mm weighing 9,1 (according to other sources 9,07) grams and an initial speed of 950-970 m / s.

    Based on the muzzle energy of a bullet of the order of 4500 KJ (one and a half times more than the bullet of a cartridge of 7,62x51 mm) and the increased lateral load, this bullet with a hardened steel core should in theory ensure penetration of the highest-security army body armor at a distance of either 100 yards or 100 meters ( at least in 50% of cases).

    But the implementation of this goal has not yet been confirmed by any participant in the NGSW contest. In the event of a fiasco, the contest organizers can only rely on bullets with a tungsten alloy core, which will increase the cost of ammunition by an order of magnitude and make the rearmament of the American army ineffective.

    Therefore, cartridges with superhigh-speed subcaliber tungsten bullets are five times smaller in mass / cost they rule (Rostekha note) bully
    1. -1
      31 October 2019 18: 24
      6,8x51 mm weighing 9,1 grams (according to other sources 9,07 grams) and an initial speed of 950-970 m / s.
      Based on the muzzle energy of a bullet of the order of 4500 KJ (one and a half times more than the bullet of a cartridge 7,62x51 mm)
      with such bullet energy, you can forget about the high rate of fire, at the same time as snipers already have .300win and .338LM. So what niche will your bullet occupy?
      1. +1
        31 October 2019 18: 36
        This has already been discussed in other articles and comments on them: the full name of the American competition sounds like NGSW-R / AR - participants had to submit one model of a self-loading rifle and one model of a light machine gun in order to adopt the US Army infantry squad.

        In other words, it is planned to abandon individual automatic weapons and preserve group automatic weapons under a new unified cartridge with penetration like the cartridge of .300 Winchester Magnum caliber.

        Caliber 338LM is already sniper pairs and machine-gun calculations of a platoon level and higher.
        1. -1
          31 October 2019 19: 01
          Personally, I do not believe in the return of self-loading rifles as the main personal weapon. They are corny there is no such flexibility in application.
          1. 0
            31 October 2019 19: 14
            Or maybe DEVCOM holds a contest based on purely scientific interest? laughing
            1. -1
              31 October 2019 19: 20
              For the first time I hear from you that DEVCOM is going to transfer a combined-arms army to a cartridge 3 times more powerful than the standard 5.52.
              1. 0
                31 October 2019 21: 39
                Have you read the article?
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. -2
      1 November 2019 03: 20
      Rostec was inspired by your recommendation. Indicate your exact address for sending the guard of honor
    4. +1
      1 November 2019 11: 23
      Quote: Operator
      and an initial speed of 950-970 m / s.

      There is an ammunition lover channel on TyTruba. He talked about the development of 6 mm ammunition in the USSR. In general, they made their way from 1975 to 1991, and nothing came of it. Just because of these 900 m / s. 5,45 has less cutting step, the bullet is on the verge of stability, but has not yet somersault in flight. 7,62 has a small cutting step, the bullet is stable, but the departure speed is 350-390 m / s.
      So, for 900 m / s and a caliber of 6 with a small one, it was not possible to select a thread so that the bullet remained stable, and the barrel had an acceptable resource.
      Not without reason, our tanks switched to a smoothbore and long shells - this allowed us to significantly increase the speed of the projectile and armor penetration, but reduced accuracy.
      1. 0
        1 November 2019 11: 57
        The Soviet cartridge 6x49 mm provided acceleration of the 5-gram bullet to a speed of 1150 m / s, its muzzle energy was equal to 3300 J, i.e. 1,36 times less than the new American cartridge 6,8x51 mm.
  21. 0
    1 November 2019 09: 59
    I can’t understand what is the problem of making a completely burning cartridge case? Look, they do the same for tank guns.
    1. 0
      1 November 2019 14: 23
      reliability (storage, operation) and characterization of the material do not allow. The thickness of the tank and automatic shells are incomparable.
  22. Eug
    -1
    1 November 2019 10: 12
    There is a suspicion that as a result, there will be two types of cases - metal for long-term storage cartridges and BURNABLE - for "wartime" cartridges. In the second case, the ejector tooth will be idling. A combination sleeve with a combustible part and a metal base is possible.
  23. 0
    4 November 2019 09: 02
    ... For example, the melting point of the fluoroplastic is 327 ° C ...

    Fighting Internet Deer Journalistic do not even bother to learn more about what they write. Along the way, the sofa gave them a soft spot.
    In fact: even at a temperature of more than 415 ° C (the decomposition temperature of the fluoroplastic), it does not acquire fluidity, retains its shape.
    1. 0
      18 January 2020 20: 26
      Here are those on! If you write about Ftoroplast-4, then you yourself are notoriously offended. After 300 ° C, fluoroplast, and such a very soft material, generally turns into a nozzle. And it keeps more or less only in a closed volume (as a gasket).
  24. +1
    7 November 2019 07: 22
    Well, the caliber is understandable. All the same, 5,56 is good only against a "naked" fighter in the steppe. Yes, and he has a ricochet be healthy. 6,8 in this regard will be better. But the rest is from the evil one. To the classic form of the sleeve and the fact that it is metal, they came for a reason. And it took more than a dozen years. Hunters will not let lies what words they say when the plastic sleeve is blown up in the breech or it melts. Many still prefer cardboard ones. If they are so confused about the weight , then it is necessary to develop aluminum alloys, work with gunpowders, which will result in an even reduction in the size and weight of ammunition.
  25. 0
    7 November 2019 18: 07
    It seems that this is "theirs" response to our "Warrior" - an increase in the individual protection of a soldier, they responded by developing a more powerful cartridge, with a burning cartridge case ... I wonder how our gunsmiths perceived this, and do we have something like that ?! hi
  26. 0
    7 November 2019 20: 17
    The theme with the new cartridges has long been exaggerated, especially the sleeveless one. Reducing the weight of a cartridge is a good thing, but why all this will be needed if it does not fire. Watch the AK video where he shoots when the civier burns. Here is the answer. There is no point in changing the caliber for the Russian Federation; we have good reserves of 7,62x39 and 7,62x54 and 7,62x25, which makes us wise ...
  27. +1
    8 November 2019 12: 41
    Straight "scientific disputes" ...
    Already "40 years" as EVERYTHING was found out, and every "10 years" sleep "an old song about the main thing" ...

    To change or NOT to change the caliber is a "purely administrative decision" and "a matter of taste". It does NOT change anything GLOBALLY, because the changes in the REAL "combat effectiveness" are visible only "on the calculator".
    WOULD NOT move from 7,6 to 5,6 - "the world would NOT collapse", if they do / will NOT move from 5,6 to 6,8 / 7,6 - also "the world will NOT collapse".

    YES, "you can't lie against physics" and a bullet with a mass of 80% more at the SAME initial velocity WILL have the BEST "stopping power" and "penetration", and with every hundred meters the advantage WILL grow.
    But "sort of like" for assault rifles / machine guns, "workers" 400-500 m? And even then - we must "still" get there ...

    Cons of a larger caliber are also known for a long time:
    1 Large mass and volume of BC
    2 Great returns, and as a consequence:
    - worse accuracy of automatic fire (especially from "Precarious positions"
    - More time to transfer fire from one target to another.
    3 Greater consumption of materials / money for the production of ammunition. \
    Items 1 and 3 can be tried to "heal" with other materials, and item 2 is difficult to cure.
    But you can "just score" on ALL the minuses for the BEST "slaughter." ...

    Only "substantiation of the need" as in "kindergarten" ....
    "It seems like" they are going to pierce Russian and Chinese bulletproof vests, but for some reason, the article is NOT "full" with sleep data of WHAT range is the same 6,8x42 GUARANTEED breaks Russian bulletproof vests Br4 / Br5.
    Forget / "shy" or ESPECIALLY "impress" with NOTHING ??

    By the way - a video of firing a Chinese armor plate from a 50-caliber AR-ki "walks" in the net, it seems from 100 yards.
    Yes, the "blunt trauma" was "JUST DEATH", but the bullet did not pierce the PLATE ....
    It is a pity TU did not try the plate with our 7N22 / 24/39 - for comparison ...

    And on the "plastic" casings, WHETHER THERE ARE NO "independent test drives" in REAL and EXTREME conditions, but ALREADY "there are suspicions" that "extreme conditions" can be a REGULAR battle in 30-60 minutes with a "fire intensity" of more than 1 shot in 5 seconds ...
  28. 0
    9 December 2019 10: 54
    The caliber increases than 7, 62 then worse

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