Military Review

In the United States recognized the "gluttony" AUG

129
The US Navy has focused on the growth of combat potential fleet. Accordingly, the costs of its maintenance increase. However, costs increased, despite a decrease in the number of ships. This approach is an ineffective way of dealing with an equal power opponent, such as Russia and China. This was stated by Deputy Minister of the Navy Thomas Modley last week.




Less ships, more expenses


Modley served on the fleet in the 1980's, and since then, according to him, the fleet has changed a lot. Now it is about half as much as in those times, but the average cost of one ship is twice as high.

Returning to the 80 years, when we had a fleet of 600 ships, the average cost of our ship in this fleet amounted to a billion dollars [...] Our current fleet is 290 pennants, the average cost of which is $ 2 billion including inflation

- the officer said.

According to him, this is due to an increase in combat power, which requires more costs for fewer platforms.

Now I'm not sure if this is the right strategy for us, given the scenario in which we will deal with a great power such as China or Russia

- said Modley.



Voracious AUG


According to him, carrier strike groups have always been a great financial burden for the Navy, but today their maintenance is much more expensive. In the 1980's AUG took about 14% of the total fleet operating costs. Now - this is 31%.

We need to think about how to reverse this trend.

Modley explained.

As he believes, it was previously correctly noted in the Navy that a transition to a new strike force is necessary. Instead of trying to rely on large surface ships, such as cruisers and destroyers, you need to rely on small pennants, for example, on a littoral warship or frigate, as well as drones. Smaller units are able to carry an increased load, while reducing the "gluttony" of the fleet, the basis of which is determined by AUG (aircraft carrier strike groups).

That’s why, as Modley said, he advocates investing in LCS and the frigate, “because they are more flexible and more responsive,” and cost a billion dollars or less. At the same time, keeping an 13 billionth aircraft carrier is much more difficult, especially considering the long-term perspective. In this regard, he called the desire to achieve the composition of the fleet in 355 ships based on 12 carrier strike groups, "a very aggressive target."

There is a mathematical problem that we must try to solve, and we must take it seriously

- concluded Modley.

129 comments
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  1. aszzz888
    aszzz888 29 October 2019 08: 33 New
    +3
    In the 1980's AUG took about 14% of the total fleet operating costs. Now - this is 31%.
    Do mericatos with paper or paint have a strain? laughing
    1. Andrey Chistyakov
      Andrey Chistyakov 29 October 2019 08: 37 New
      +1
      Quote: aszzz888
      In the 1980's AUG took about 14% of the total fleet operating costs. Now - this is 31%.
      Do mericatos with paper or paint have a strain? laughing

      The national debt is already going wild ...
      1. tihonmarine
        tihonmarine 29 October 2019 09: 35 New
        0
        Quote: Andrey Chistyakov
        The national debt is already off scale ..

        The printing press will endure everything.
        1. hrych
          hrych 29 October 2019 10: 11 New
          +9
          Quote: tihonmarine

          The printing press will endure everything

          No, it will not tolerate. Especially when the dollar ceased to be a mutual currency in Eurasia. None, national currencies and barter are appreciated and this is the main meanness on the part of Russia over a decade turning the dollar into a calculated equivalent, without actually transferring it. And the worst thing is that China, India, Iran, the Russian Federation, Indonesia and the CIS with Turkey have left the dollar, and the EU is trading ... in euros and Uncle Sam is out of business. Therefore, such a need arose for the service team of the most powerful and advanced fleet.
          1. orionvitt
            orionvitt 29 October 2019 13: 56 New
            +2
            Quote: hrych
            The dollar has ceased to be a mutual currency in Eurasia

            Especially when you consider that not a single "national bank" has the right to "print" its own currency more than it is secured by US dollars (in the sense of the federal reserve). So, anyway, we always rest against the dollar.
        2. Berkut24
          Berkut24 29 October 2019 12: 22 New
          +6
          The printing press will endure everything.

          The machine will endure, but the economy is gone.
          Money issue in a situation when there is a release of dollars due to the rejection of them in the mutual trade of many countries, inevitably leads to a decrease in its course in the world. The depreciation of the dollar leads to a decrease in the value of US debt securities, which will inevitably lead to a mass rejection of them. Well, then the collapse of the US economy as a whole is inevitable, because without doping, she can’t.
          Now the United States monthly prints about 1 trillion. dollars. And if earlier the issue was invigorating the American economy (money was distributed on credit around the world, in order to later return it to the American economy through the treasury mechanism), then the last year this does not work. and each new dollar only accumulates problems of the American economy worth more than this dollar. For the movement launched from Russia's supply to transfer mutual trade between countries into national currency settlements will throw new portions of dollars with dubious liquidity in the future every day on the interbank market.
        3. Lexus
          Lexus 29 October 2019 16: 29 New
          +1
          The printing press will endure everything.

          Do not worry about them, we will help them, or rather, our fat, but truly patriotic "stars", retired officials and oligarchs, they are "ordinary" residents of Florida and California, will help them from us.


          PS So Malkin has confirmed his American citizenship. This PATRIOT of Russia! good
    2. Berber
      Berber 29 October 2019 08: 43 New
      +3
      All resources are finite. But not only paint and paper are involved there. Too often, “green” has been used as a leverage, so its resource is almost exhausted.
      1. antivirus
        antivirus 29 October 2019 09: 03 New
        +2
        Instead of trying to rely on large surface ships, such as cruisers and destroyers, you need to rely on small pennants, for example, on a littoral warship or frigate, as well as drones. Smaller units are able to carry an increased load, while reducing the "gluttony" of the fleet,

        THEN IT IS NECESSARY TO TAKE THE EXPERIENCE OF COCHLES-- MOSQUITOUS Navy
    3. Vasyan1971
      Vasyan1971 29 October 2019 09: 31 New
      +2
      Quote: aszzz888
      Do mericatos with paper or paint have a strain?

      They have paint and paper for everyone else. For themselves, they use real money and now tension begins to be felt with them.
      http://www.bolshoyvopros.ru/questions/962019-pochemu-v-ssha-imeet-hozhdenie-drugoj-dollar-chem-vo-vsjom-mire.html
      1. dSK
        dSK 29 October 2019 09: 46 New
        -3
        The Russian Armed Forces are not fiends; they are not fighting against civilians. And the cost one "Poplar" not comparable with one aug. Enough and not a direct hit of one warhead with a "mini" nuclear charge - AUG will come out of a standing position and crawl for major repairs.
        1. A5V
          A5V 29 October 2019 13: 25 New
          +4
          Um, how are you going to work with American strike groups with ballistic missiles that were never intended to fight ships? belay
      2. Berber
        Berber 29 October 2019 11: 23 New
        -1
        You can’t say more precisely.
    4. YOUR
      YOUR 29 October 2019 09: 57 New
      +3
      With the state budget, they got tense. Take oh how hard. The military budget so rolls over, and the prices of cartridges are rising not childishly.
      In 1961, the cost of the lead aircraft carrier Enterprise was $ 451 million. The cost of Nimitz -4.5 billion dollars, the cost of the same type and the last aircraft carrier type Nimitz "G. Bush" - 6.2 billion, and finally the latest "J Ford" -10.3 billion dollars. And it is not yet known how much it will take to fine-tune. various systems periodically fail.
      But their military budget is not growing at such a pace. Since 1961 (460 billion) it grew not 20 times as the price of aircraft carriers, but less than 2 times.
    5. askort154
      askort154 29 October 2019 10: 13 New
      +6
      aszzz888 .... Have mericatos with paper or paint, tension appeared?

      With bearings. They are melting. hi
    6. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 29 October 2019 12: 12 New
      +2
      Quote: aszzz888
      Do mericatos with paper or paint have a strain?

      Nope - it's just your favorite statistical percent game.
      In the 80s, the share of AUG was half that because the US had a fleet of 600 ships. And there, besides AB, there were enough money-eaters - KUG and Iowa alone were worth it.
      And now there is neither the KMG, nor the powerful forces of the North Atlantic PLO and the Atlantic Highway - that’s the share of the AUG and has increased.
  2. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 29 October 2019 08: 33 New
    -2
    Let them sell us. Three pieces to us, the rest to the Chinese ... laughing Ruined without any sanctions ...
    1. knn54
      knn54 29 October 2019 09: 09 New
      +1
      I repeat the problems with competent responsible specialists.
      In addition to drones, it is necessary to strengthen the air group with long-range aircraft. Otherwise, the relevance of the AUG will fall. Invest in deck aircraft.
      Can finally tear
      1. dSK
        dSK 29 October 2019 09: 49 New
        +3
        A good article is the answer to our lobbyists for new aircraft carriers.
  3. GRF
    GRF 29 October 2019 08: 34 New
    +1
    just to poke the "switchman"
    is that the one?
  4. olhon
    olhon 29 October 2019 08: 35 New
    +2
    Present them to Ukraine.
    1. Vasyan1971
      Vasyan1971 29 October 2019 09: 32 New
      +4
      Quote: olhon
      Present them to Ukraine.

      Shipment at own expense.
  5. nobody111body
    nobody111body 29 October 2019 08: 37 New
    +1
    therefore, a handful of American Jews spins advertisements about the "unsinkability" of their sea airfields — and we only need one in Syria to control the impudence of Israeli bandits of pilots — it is on land which is several times cheaper
    1. tkoh
      tkoh 29 October 2019 08: 42 New
      -13
      The airfield in Syria is 5 years old for all citizens of Russia.
      1. nobody111body
        nobody111body 29 October 2019 09: 07 New
        +3
        and at what age do they retire in your vaunted Israel?
        1. tkoh
          tkoh 29 October 2019 20: 59 New
          +1
          I don’t know about Israel. You better know better from the couch when they retire
      2. IL-18
        IL-18 29 October 2019 09: 17 New
        +1
        Quote: tkoh
        5 years of retirement age is for all citizens of Russia

        Alas, with the inheritance of the course pursued by Yeltsin and his henchmen, there would have been at least 10, and without an airfield in Syria. Although, probably, it’s cruel of me to destroy an unshakable faith in what is said in a liberal context: the “thinking” minority will really have to think
        1. tkoh
          tkoh 29 October 2019 20: 56 New
          +1
          Vladimir Vladimirovich Yeltsin's receiver. So the course of the country has not changed. He was only slightly masked by patriotic speeches from federal channels. And the robbery of the country as it began in the 90s continues
      3. Nastia makarova
        Nastia makarova 29 October 2019 12: 13 New
        -2
        without him there would be no pensions at all
        1. tkoh
          tkoh 29 October 2019 20: 58 New
          -1
          Somehow without it, Russia stood for a thousand years. But can she survive the reign of the current president - only history will show
          1. Nastia makarova
            Nastia makarova 30 October 2019 08: 26 New
            0
            don't cry, go out and see how beautiful life is
    2. Cut Samshitov
      Cut Samshitov 29 October 2019 09: 43 New
      +2
      therefore, a handful of American Jews spins advertisements about the "unsinkability" of their sea airfields — and we only need one in Syria to control the impudence of Israeli bandits of pilots — it is on land that is several times cheaper And a handful of their allies in Russia are trying to push through the construction of an aircraft carrier fleet.
  6. bessmertniy
    bessmertniy 29 October 2019 08: 38 New
    -6
    Pearl Harbor never taught Americans anything. It is good when their warships are assembled in such a group that can be covered or sprayed with one small nuclear strike.
    1. tlauicol
      tlauicol 29 October 2019 08: 55 New
      +2
      Quote: bessmertniy
      Pearl Harbor never taught Americans anything. It is good when their warships are assembled in such a group that can be covered or sprayed with one small nuclear strike.

      this is a parade dedicated to joint exercises.
    2. Vol4ara
      Vol4ara 29 October 2019 09: 07 New
      +4
      Quote: bessmertniy
      Pearl Harbor never taught Americans anything. It is good when their warships are assembled in such a group that can be covered or sprayed with one small nuclear strike.

      It will be especially cool when after that your cities are sprayed
    3. IL-18
      IL-18 29 October 2019 09: 34 New
      +2
      Quote: bessmertniy
      Pearl Harbor never taught Americans anything.

      Well, the presence of AUG in them suggests the opposite, in fact, in addition to aircraft carriers to the Japanese after Pearl Harbor, the Americans did not have anything, and they turned out to be the most effective means. the issue of sloppiness can be raised before the Japanese, they only had enough jambs in the part of the PLO.
      And the article is about cost, not about efficiency. The cost of piston and jet aircraft, infrastructure, power plants, salaries of mercenaries in comparison with draftees, increased displacement at times, etc. forced to review the entire current organization of their fleet, otherwise even the American denyuzhkav may not be enough.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 29 October 2019 12: 28 New
        +2
        Quote: IL-18
        in fact, besides aircraft carriers to the Japanese after Pearl Harbor, the Americans had nothing

        In fact, after Pearl Harbor, USN had 8 leftovers: BB-34 New York, BB-35 Texas, BB-40 New Mexico, BB-41 Mississippi, BB-42 Idaho, BB- 45 Colorado, BB-55 North Carolina, BB-56 Washington.
        Plus relict LK with 12 "- BB-33" Arkansas ". smile
  7. Avior
    Avior 29 October 2019 08: 53 New
    +2
    - you need to bet on small pennants, for example, on a littoral warship or frigate

    They read IN!
    Just the other day, I wrote that the American Navy is sorely lacking frigates - and here is the reaction!
    In fact, it was obvious that instead of the expensive littoral ship, in addition to the very expensive Arly Burke, the American fleet badly needed cheap frigates.
    And he even suggested that they be made on the basis of the Formidell project at a price of 275 million apiece, that is, instead of five Arly Berks, build 25-30 frigates.
    At the same time, the author flogged the idea of ​​littoral warships, which turned out to be neither a candle for a god nor a poker line.
    The Americans in the Navy have forgotten how to count money, but sometimes it would be useful.
    1. IL-18
      IL-18 29 October 2019 09: 36 New
      +2
      Quote: Avior
      the other day I wrote

      Wait for a call to the FSB, all of a sudden, they read bully
      1. Avior
        Avior 29 October 2019 10: 14 New
        +2
        If they found out about everything from my post in VO, I’ve got the money for the idea, I will have to share it.
        And if they don’t give money, who needs me? smile
      2. vadson
        vadson 29 October 2019 12: 07 New
        0
        Quote: IL-18
        Wait for a call to the FSB, all of a sudden, they read

        doubt wassat wassat ?
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 29 October 2019 12: 57 New
      +2
      Quote: Avior
      They read IN!
      Just the other day, I wrote that the American Navy is sorely lacking frigates - and here is the reaction!

      This VO reads them. smile
      USN admirals started talking about the need to return the FR 3-4 years ago. First, it became clear that the littoralniks were completely helpless in the role of anti-aircraft defense and air defense ships - and it was precisely by the presence of LCS that they explained the decommissioning of the UCP. And then the fleet was returned to the old task of the Cold War era - the North Atlantic PLO (before that, the 2nd fleet was not only cut back, but disbanded altogether). And suddenly it turned out that the ocean fleet PLO fleet nowhere to take. It even came to the proposal to put into operation the newest of the decommissioned UHFs - those that had not yet been sold.
      Quote: Avior
      In fact, it was obvious that instead of the expensive littoral ship, in addition to the very expensive Arly Burke, the American fleet badly needed cheap frigates.

      Mwa ha ha ... the funniest thing is that the LCS was originally supposed to be a cheap mass "consumable" ship, capable of replacing the "Burki" and "Zamvoly" with secondary TVDs. And the result was an expensive "dove of peace", unable to act even on these very secondary theater of war without the cover of normal EM URO.
      Quote: Avior
      At the same time, the author flogged the idea of ​​littoral warships, which turned out to be neither a candle for a god nor a poker line.

      But-but-but ... that way you and lobbyism will make criminally punishable. smile
      The problem with LCS is that it was made for a different era. While he could slaughter the enemy without entering his fire zone, everything was fine, with the shortcomings of the littoralnik in the form of zero survivability and protection, it was possible to put up with. But the LCS was designed and built for so long that during this time the weapons of its opponents changed dramatically. And where a maximum of D-30 and T-55 were supposed to shoot at the project’s concept, in fact, anything could fly in from the same shore - right up to the pirated copy of the unlicensed version of Exozet.
  8. tlauicol
    tlauicol 29 October 2019 08: 57 New
    +1
    bad money? they need war - a sure way to fix things for the US
  9. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 29 October 2019 08: 59 New
    +11
    Bravo! I warmly support :))))
    Let them build worthless LCS instead of aircraft carriers!
    By the way, in the 80 years in the USA there were 15 aircraft carriers on 600 ships, now 11 on 290. It is not surprising that the share of expenditures on AUG increased slightly. Only Modly did not say a word about it! :)))))
    1. Avior
      Avior 29 October 2019 10: 16 New
      +2
      The ship structure has changed. Instead of relatively cheap, Perry switched to the expensive Arly Burke.
      For limited conflicts, good.
      Somehow they did not think that a mass war problem could arise.
      But then the Chinese came and began to build up the fleet at a Chinese pace.
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 29 October 2019 10: 22 New
        +4
        Not quite so. They take it just for a full-scale conflict for the formation of the ACG, and so on. But the frigates were needed to protect shipping in the Atlantic, where our submarines were supposed to graze. We no longer have a large fleet of submarines and the need for frigates has decreased
        1. Avior
          Avior 29 October 2019 10: 36 New
          +2
          But the Chinese have a fleet.
          The modern frigate is actually a stripped-down destroyer.
          And a couple of such cheap frigates, in addition to the destroyer with networked information transfer capabilities, will not be inferior to the destroyer.
          AUGs are very suitable for an escort.
          In principle, the same British or French do just that — for one destroyer (or large frigate) —a pair of ordinary ones.
          But the Americans at one time switched exclusively to the expensive Berks, who, being excellent ships, are simply redundant for many applications.
          They sorely lack cheap frigates for escorts in addition to the Berks, littoral ships in this capacity are ersatz, and also very expensive, with useless functions like high speed.
          I wrote there above - a cheap modified Formidedle or a similar project is easily able to replace Arly Burke in most of the AUG escort.
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 29 October 2019 10: 43 New
            +2
            The problem is that frigates like the formidable of the Americans will be very expensive - I think about a billion
            1. Avior
              Avior 29 October 2019 11: 11 New
              +1
              Why would it be such a price?
              So much and littoral are not worth it.
              Lafayettes (and Formideblles) - cheap frigates brews.
              If the Americans are unable to build them inexpensively, you need to order from the French and Singaporeans.
              Well, it’s clear that Ijcis cannot be sculpted there, which themselves stand like a frigate.
              1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 29 October 2019 11: 37 New
                +3
                Everything is very simple - the Americans will never agree to abandon their UVK Mk48 - they will not change the possibility of deploying PLUR and heavy missiles at Asters. And, if so, they will put Aegis. I must say that today, to make a modern warship without a single BIOS is a frankly bad decision, we shove even corvettes. And they have nothing but Aegis, and if they start a new development, then a serial frigate of five billion will rise laughing
                1. Alexey RA
                  Alexey RA 29 October 2019 13: 58 New
                  +2
                  And the story with the Burke will repeat:
                  "Tika" is too expensive, we need something cheaper, but without much damage to the performance characteristics. And let's get a cheap EM URO with blackjack UVP and Aegis. Once an iteration, two iterations, three iterations ... let me, did we return to Tika again? smile
                2. Avior
                  Avior 29 October 2019 14: 38 New
                  0
                  You have a typo - mk41.
                  I wrote initially, to replace the aster with a 32 cell μ41, the same as the nose on the Berks.
                  And add 8 cell MK41 in self-defense dimensions under essm.
                  Aegis is optional for this.
                  1. Town Hall
                    Town Hall 29 October 2019 15: 04 New
                    0
                    Quote: Avior
                    You have a typo - mk41.
                    I wrote initially, to replace the aster with a 32 cell μ41, the same as the nose on the Berks.
                    And add 8 cell MK41 in self-defense dimensions under essm.
                    Aegis is optional for this.

                    And making these modifications, the frigate will cost as a destroyer, while preserving all the shortcomings of the frigate (compared to the destroyer)
                  2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 29 October 2019 15: 32 New
                    +2
                    Yeah, thanks, it’s very inconvenient to write from a smartphone with its auto-substitution and scanty letters. So I'm wrong. And Aegis is needed, without a BIUS the ship loses a lot. And the fact is that the Americans will not abandon it for sure
                    1. Avior
                      Avior 29 October 2019 16: 52 New
                      +2
                      I just turned off T9, even if it was better with errors than with a perverted meaning.
                      Andrei, I am writing about what kind of ships the Americans would like to build in addition to the Burks, and what they really will build - the second question.
                      But they managed to compose these littoral ships with obscure goals.
                      Berks for most real tasks have redundant functionality, so it makes sense to add cheap frigates to them just to leave the most difficult tasks for Berks.
                      And the frigates, in turn, will use Berkov’s capabilities in symbiosis.
                      If for this you need to buy third-party inexpensive Bius and radar, Americans need to do this or buy a license.
                      If they try to sculpt mini-Berkies from these frigates, then all this makes no sense.
                      Formidebl is just an option.
                      Essno they will put MK41 and radar under SM.
                      But Aegis obviously does not need such a ship
              2. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA 29 October 2019 13: 52 New
                +2
                Quote: Avior
                Why would it be such a price?

                Because it is the USA. They still managed to build ships at WWII at a price that was several times higher than their analogues, and even with large-scale construction. smile
          2. Town Hall
            Town Hall 29 October 2019 10: 59 New
            +1
            Quote: Avior
            The modern frigate is actually a stripped-down destroyer.
            And a couple of such cheap frigates, in addition to the destroyer with networked information transfer capabilities, will not be inferior to the destroyer.

            In your opinion, the construction and especially the operation of a pair of modern frigates that are only slightly worse than the destroyer will cost less than 1 destroyer?
            1. Avior
              Avior 29 October 2019 11: 13 New
              0
              We are talking about specific frigates and specific destroyers.
              Lafayettes were built just like lesh frigates.
              And Arly Burke is like expensive destroyers.
              In combination, a profitable bunch is obtained.
              1. Town Hall
                Town Hall 29 October 2019 11: 15 New
                0
                Profitable for what? Why do we need a cheap frigate in the Atlantic, for example?
                1. Avior
                  Avior 29 October 2019 11: 20 New
                  0
                  For anti-aircraft defense, anti-aircraft defense in an escort that convoys that AUG, with the informational support of the same Berkov, of course, to support the landings, for targeted attacks in the absence of serious opposition.
                  Everything except missile defense, in fact.
                  Part on their own, part in conjunction with Burke
                  1. Town Hall
                    Town Hall 29 October 2019 11: 28 New
                    +1
                    These are theories. But in reality, in the Atlantic, only ships with the capability of missile defense are needed. PLO against whom? Do you think 30 Elk, 20 Virginia and hundreds of PLO planes are not enough against those one and a half pieces of Russian MAPL which are still underway? Need to also build frigates against them?). By air defense, the same garbage.
                    1. Alexey RA
                      Alexey RA 29 October 2019 13: 59 New
                      +2
                      Quote: Town Hall
                      Do you think 30 Elk, 20 Virginia, and hundreds of PLO aircraft are not enough against the one and a half pieces of Russian MAPL that are still on the move? Do you also need to build frigates against them?)

                      This is not what we suppose. This is believed by the American admirals, who last year even wanted to pull out UCP from sludge. smile
                      1. Town Hall
                        Town Hall 29 October 2019 14: 51 New
                        0
                        I would not take too seriously "Old" and a colorful hype from our resource, drawing inspiration from NI and (latest mod) Chinese sites)
                      2. Alexey RA
                        Alexey RA 29 October 2019 15: 25 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Town Hall
                        I would not take too seriously "Old" and a colorful hype from our resource, drawing inspiration from NI and (latest mod) Chinese sites)

                        About the return of UCP - this is not a hype from our resource, but a statement by the Commander-in-Chief of the U.S. Navy made in 2017 during a speech at US Naval War College:
                        Speaking recently at the US Naval War College, Chief of Naval Operations Admiral John Richardson said he is considering "every trick" to grow the fleet, including the potential reactivation of some of the seven Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigates that are now in the inactive reserve fleet.

                        The Commander-in-Chief stated that he was ready to consider any measures to increase the fleet, including the possibility of reactivation of some of the seven military-technical units currently in the Reserve Fleet.
                      3. Town Hall
                        Town Hall 29 October 2019 15: 33 New
                        0
                        Eat they eat them, but who will give him).
                2. Avior
                  Avior 29 October 2019 14: 34 New
                  0
                  The term missile defense is usually used against ballistic missiles.
                  Against winged air defense.
                  This provides a cheap frigate, especially in conjunction with Burke
                  1. Town Hall
                    Town Hall 29 October 2019 14: 48 New
                    +1
                    We once discussed this topic with you. Modern frigates have air defense only for self-defense. Only destroyers can provide zone air defense. Or specialized air defense frigates. They are like a destroyer. But without its strike capabilities
                    And this is not going into details about who and how in reality can threaten Americans with cruise missiles in the middle of the Atlantic. I think you also find it difficult to indicate the sources of this danger
                  2. Avior
                    Avior 29 October 2019 15: 08 New
                    +1
                    You are too generalizing and free to interpret.
                    Individual frigates do not have long-range air defense.
                    We are talking about specific ships that have it.
                    Let me remind you that I did not write that the Americans should build ships strictly under the center of the Atlantic.
                    That was your question.
                  3. Town Hall
                    Town Hall 29 October 2019 15: 11 New
                    +1
                    And what should they build them for? For the coastal zone they are building LCS
                  4. Avior
                    Avior 29 October 2019 16: 12 New
                    0
                    There are Chinese, for example
                  5. Town Hall
                    Town Hall 29 October 2019 16: 21 New
                    0
                    The Chinese how are things with MAPLami? And in general with the nuclear submarine fleet
                  6. Avior
                    Avior 29 October 2019 16: 41 New
                    0
                    I'm afraid to answer you. I will answer, and you will write that I propose to build frigates against the existing Chinese MAPL.
                  7. Town Hall
                    Town Hall 29 October 2019 17: 22 New
                    0
                    You yourself know that things are worse with China’s nuclear submarine fleet than sadly, both quantitatively and qualitatively.
                    And do not forget that the allies of the United States, that in the Atlantic and in the Pacific, dozens of these very frigates
                  8. Avior
                    Avior 30 October 2019 02: 33 New
                    0
                    you see, but I didn’t even answer.
                    and what, I wrote that these frigates are suitable only against MAPL?
                  9. Town Hall
                    Town Hall 30 October 2019 10: 10 New
                    0
                    You wrote that these frigates are needed for the PLO in the protection of ocean convoys and escort AUG. Or not? And who else could threaten convoys and ASU in the open ocean except for nuclear submarines?
                  10. Avior
                    Avior 30 October 2019 10: 20 New
                    0
                    For an escort, they are needed.
                    Now Arly Burke is used for this purpose, which is redundant in many cases and expensive, which is written in the article.
                    And you, if you refer to my words, do not hesitate to quote, but not to arrange your nuances, like that I write convoys, and you supposedly bring my words like ocean convoys.
                  11. Town Hall
                    Town Hall 30 October 2019 11: 23 New
                    0
                    An escort for an AOG is not a guard of honor company. There is no one to attack the AUG in the ocean in today's real world. So frigates are not needed there. A destroyers are needed to strike on the shore when an AUG approaches the “target” and the frigate’s strike capabilities compared to a destroyer - they didn’t even lie nearby. There is no real need for Amers to throw tens or hundreds of billions at the moment on the “frigate” program. So that potential opponents can really counteract them — their existing aircraft, submarines, destroyers and LCS will do just fine.
                    For coastal zones, LCS and Allied frigates exist if convoys go to them.
                    Quote: Avior
                    Feel free to quote, and

                    With all my respect to you, but you are still not a classic so that you can parse quotes) hi
                  12. Avior
                    Avior 30 October 2019 12: 11 New
                    0
                    In the ocean, there is no one to attack AUG in today's real world.

                    Yeah. Escort is not needed at all, then. Frigates are not needed, and there will be Tomahawk drums in the destroyer cells, so there is no escort from them.
                    Allied frigates if convoys go to them.

                    and if not to them, then the United States should not fight.
                    Yes, you are a strategist.
                    With all my respect to you, but you are still not a classic so that you can parse quotes)

                    For God's sake. If you do not ascribe any statements, then you can not quote.
                    I think your ideas about the uselessness of an escort so far from reality that I do not see the subject of discussion here. hi
                  13. Town Hall
                    Town Hall 30 October 2019 12: 52 New
                    0
                    Quote: Avior
                    No escort needed

                    Do not exaggerate. Escort AUG is carried out by destroyers, aircraft, cruisers of the URO and submarines. And there is no need to block the garden with another type of ship for an escort.
                    Quote: Avior
                    and if not to them

                    And to whom? The convoy goes from point A to point B. Name point B in the Atlantic and on the Pacific window which would not be the base of the United States and (or) an ally of the United States
                  14. Avior
                    Avior 30 October 2019 13: 29 New
                    0
                    Well, you are going to do these destroyers and cruisers.
                    Which of the shock escorts?
                    What is point B in the Atlantic and on the Pacific Ocean which would not be the base of the United States and / or US ally

                    And each of the allies will easily provide an escort to the American fleet.
                  15. Town Hall
                    Town Hall 30 October 2019 14: 09 New
                    -2
                    Quote: Avior
                    Which of the shock escorts?

                    Operate with arguments, numbers, and logical chains based on them, not absurdities.
                    What a frigate, what a destroyer should have 4 "combat" characteristics. In order of importance from the least important to the most important (in the real world and not in the sphere of vacuum) these are PLO, zonal air defense, missile defense and strike capabilities. Besides these combat characteristics there is also "logistics" -speed, autonomy, range, seaworthiness depending on weather conditions.
                    When you propose replacing the destroyer with a frigate, you have to justify it. This and that is lost, this and that is won. And not just philosophizing that a frigate is cheaper than a destroyer is better to build frigates. It’s from poverty that frigates build instead of destroyers. And some people Buyan and Karakurt Builds. Do not give out need as a benefactor.
                    Quote: Avior
                    And each of the allies will easily provide an escort to the American fleet.

                    You have a calculator. You can calculate the number of frigates and other ships of the near sea zone, planes, helicopters, submarines, etc. of such countries as the WB, France, Spain, Germany, Italy, Holland, Germany, Japan, Korea, etc., plus American LCS, compare with the capabilities of real potential adversaries in the Atlantic and the Pacific and answer to yourself whether the Amer convoys will be safe or if 50 more Amer frigates are needed for complete happiness
                  16. Avior
                    Avior 30 October 2019 14: 11 New
                    0
                    Ek, you jump from topic to topic.
                    Why add them?
                  17. Town Hall
                    Town Hall 30 October 2019 14: 46 New
                    0
                    Do you live in a spherical vacuum?) In what cases can American convoys in the Atlantic or the Pacific be needed and against whom)
                  18. Avior
                    Avior 30 October 2019 19: 26 New
                    0
                    Oh, jump again.
                    Escort as needed, so be it. For a long time, diesel-electric submarines acquired air-independent installations, long-range torpedoes and missiles, which led to the expansion of the PLO zone.
                    Aviation performance is growing.
                    But you can be sure that escort-atavism, I will not dissuade.
                  19. Town Hall
                    Town Hall 30 October 2019 20: 16 New
                    0
                    You somehow quietly left the replacement of supposedly expensive destroyers with supposedly cheap frigates to / do not need an escort. In principle, reason your point of view, knowledge is needed, not declarations. When a person writes that stupid American admirals should replace destroyers in the AUG escort with frigates - he must somehow justify it in fact.
                    Escort AUG is not to show off next to an aircraft carrier in the photo. Escort AUG-has to do some work. A burke worth $ 900 million performs the following functions. First, it has speed, range and seaworthiness that can withstand the pace of an aircraft carrier. It performs the functions of PLO, it has powerful radars and long-range missiles (200+ km) that provide the zonal air defense of the group. When the AUG reaches the theater of operations, it produces several dozen axes along the shore at bases, air defense facilities, airports, etc., clearing the air route. After that, it performs air defense / missile defense if the enemy fires ballistic missiles in the direction of bases or allies (Iran / Israel, SA or DPRK / YUK, Korea), this is a general outline of the task of a ship from an AUG escort.
                    Your quote:


                    Avior
                    Yesterday, 11: 13
                    0
                    We are talking about specific frigates and specific destroyers.
                    Lafayettes were built just like leash frigates

                    Explain to Amer’s admirals and other uncomprehending things easier (like me), the cost of Lafayette (in any configuration) and his technical capabilities to perform the role of an escort in AUG, from speed to air defense / zonal air defense / missile defense / attacks on enemy infrastructure
                  20. Avior
                    Avior 30 October 2019 20: 26 New
                    0
                    It’s you who moved out on the topic that an escort is not needed.
                  21. Town Hall
                    Town Hall 30 October 2019 20: 31 New
                    -1
                    Should I also sign up for classics and demand quotes?). I didn’t say anything like that. You’re looking for a straw to catch on or fight back. Because you can’t reasonably argue your point of view. No frigate can fully play the role of an escort in AUG.
                  22. Avior
                    Avior 30 October 2019 20: 37 New
                    0
                    At the moment, I see no reason to discuss this issue with you.
                    At first you were convincing that an escort was not needed, then, that it was enough for the ships of the US allies. Now you demand justifications from me.
                    Come to some specific opinion on this issue, express it clearly and clearly, and not half-hints, then it will be seen whether it is possible to discuss something with you on this issue.
                    hi
                  23. Town Hall
                    Town Hall 30 October 2019 20: 42 New
                    0
                    Aqvila non captat muscas hi
  • voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 29 October 2019 13: 28 New
    -1
    "Let them build worthless LCS" ///
    ----
    LCS has already begun to mount anti-ship missiles. Two installations of 4 rockets.
    The aircraft carrier, of course, will not notice, but immediately pulls up to the level of a corvette.
  • cniza
    cniza 29 October 2019 09: 03 New
    +5
    According to him, carrier strike groups have always been a great financial burden for the Navy, but today their maintenance is much more expensive. In the 1980's AUG took about 14% of the total fleet operating costs. Now - this is 31%.


    And as you would like, because the tasks have also grown, but the end is visible and it pleases ...
  • Masha
    Masha 29 October 2019 09: 06 New
    +3
    the machine prints and prints, and they eat and eat everything ... lol
    1. bouncyhunter
      bouncyhunter 29 October 2019 09: 44 New
      +6
      love
      So, appetite comes with eating. But there is one “but”: you can burst. What I wish them from my heart. lol
      1. Masha
        Masha 29 October 2019 09: 51 New
        +3
        love do not burst ... they have a tinned womb ... wink
        1. bouncyhunter
          bouncyhunter 29 October 2019 09: 56 New
          +4
          Time will tell . Maybe (I hope) the mattresses will have to cut their fleet into needles. Well, or sell at the price of scrap metal. repeat
          1. Masha
            Masha 29 October 2019 09: 59 New
            +4
            Quote: bouncyhunter
            Well, or sell at the price of scrap metal

            vparivat someone thread, they know how ... they will not remain in the loser ...
            1. bouncyhunter
              bouncyhunter 29 October 2019 10: 03 New
              +4
              These merchants merchants and penguins in the Antarctic snow in the snow ... laughing
    2. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 29 October 2019 10: 11 New
      +2
      Quote: Masha
      the machine prints and prints, and they eat and eat everything ..

      The beast is full and it doesn’t need it anymore, a person eats, eats and everything is not enough for him
    3. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 29 October 2019 13: 32 New
      -1
      The dollars began to print after the crisis of 2008 and printed from 2009 to 2015. Then 4 years did not print. Since 2019, they began to print again. But they go to the government (and are written in debt). Otherwise, the dollar would fall.
  • The Siberian barber
    The Siberian barber 29 October 2019 09: 07 New
    +4
    If they really changed AUG to LCS, I would have hung the Star of the Hero for this Modly, be my power laughing
  • Basarev
    Basarev 29 October 2019 09: 09 New
    -4
    Why don't they try ekranoplans? Even the poor Union could afford them.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 29 October 2019 09: 15 New
      +4
      Because ekranoplanes are even worthless LCS. And yes, ekranoplans are a very expensive pleasure
    2. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 29 October 2019 09: 56 New
      +3
      Quote: Basarev
      Why don't they try ekranoplans?

      I read somewhere that they will restore, or work is underway.
  • Galleon
    Galleon 29 October 2019 09: 16 New
    +2
    Quote: Avior
    At the same time, the author flogged the idea of ​​littoral warships, which turned out to be neither a candle for a god nor a poker line.

    You can’t talk about it out loud - they read here. If they have got a highly planted dodic from the liberal economy in the Navy, then let him be healthy and prosper. And at the same time, their most modern and powerful weapon systems are recognized as unprofitable. Littoral ships - OK, that's it! And “Aegis” is generally exorbitant and is not used anywhere else - a waste of money. Whether it’s light corvettes .. etc.
  • Zhan
    Zhan 29 October 2019 09: 18 New
    +1
    According to him, carrier strike groups have always been a great financial burden for the Navy, but today their maintenance is much more expensive. In the 1980's AUG took about 14% of the total fleet operating costs. Now - this is 31%.

    As the saying goes, you love to ride .... have a few trillion dollars in a stash.
  • Operator
    Operator 29 October 2019 09: 27 New
    -4
    "you need to bet on small pennants", - bye, and one of the locals tore his opa to the British flag in the fight of the Nanai boys for large pennants laughing
    1. Avior
      Avior 29 October 2019 10: 19 New
      +2
      They have small pennants, like in the Russian Navy large ones - 3500 tons each.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 29 October 2019 14: 03 New
        +1
        Quote: Avior
        They have small pennants, like in the Russian Navy large ones - 3500 tons each.

        Yeah ... here's a typical example small cheap American ship (foreground):

        We just have different starting points - compared to the ship in the background, the LCS really small and cheap. smile
  • Prisoner
    Prisoner 29 October 2019 09: 27 New
    +4
    Take an example from your Ukrainian counterparts. The output is a mosquito fleet. laughing
  • spectr
    spectr 29 October 2019 09: 29 New
    +2
    Then they will have to revise their doctrine, since one of its points is the projection of their military power outside the country with the help of ACG. And this can automatically lead to some changes. And as a result, it is not known what will be cheaper (with their duty) to follow the old doctrine or switch to a new one.
  • Nycomed
    Nycomed 29 October 2019 09: 30 New
    +1
    The most economical AUG we have: Kuzya, tug and tanker. good
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 29 October 2019 09: 55 New
      +3
      Quote: Nycomed
      Kuzya, a tugboat and a tanker.

      So far, Kuzya and the pier.
    2. Avior
      Avior 29 October 2019 10: 18 New
      +1
      The dock still needs to be included
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 29 October 2019 14: 04 New
        +1
        Quote: Avior
        The dock still needs to be included

        Suggest taking 11435 on a camping trip right on the dock? wink
        1. Avior
          Avior 29 October 2019 14: 45 New
          +1
          At least include in the escort smile
  • tihonmarine
    tihonmarine 29 October 2019 09: 53 New
    +5
    Quote: antivirus
    you need to bet on small pennants, for example, on a littoral warship or frigate, as well as drones.

    That's all laid out on shelves. Dear or not respected Thomas Modley, whose retirement age is right, he simply “lobbies” those who pay him (in America you know there are no bribes, only a “lobby”). And these are precisely those firms and corporations that produce a smaller fleet. So the "old chap" Modli is climbing over to get a quiet life in retirement, and then it will be possible to write that America needs aircraft carriers.
  • askort154
    askort154 29 October 2019 10: 29 New
    -1
    Now I'm not sure if this is the right strategy for us, given the scenario in which we will deal with a great power such as China or Russia (Modly)

    Ah well done! Not in the eyebrow, but in the eye. AUG can now be scared only by "developing". In reality, even the DPRK with Iran was not scared, and China and Russia, and no need to try. By the way, an excellent analytical article for our fans to build aircraft carriers. yes
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 29 October 2019 11: 44 New
      +6
      Fans of building aircraft carriers read such articles from the 60 of the last century. And they sarcastically grin at the annual enthusiasm of those who don’t like to build aircraft carriers "Ah hah, that's it, now they’ll definitely refuse aircraft carriers !!" :))) And so for more than half a century, and the base of the US Navy is still an atomic aircraft carrier
  • Vaddik
    Vaddik 29 October 2019 11: 01 New
    +1
    In the video, is this one carrier group? It looks impressive. I represent 12 such groups scattered around the world.
    1. askort154
      askort154 29 October 2019 11: 20 New
      +1
      Vaddik .....I represent 12 such groups scattered around the world.

      On the go, they always have much less. Not so long ago, two came to the DPRK, stood, stood, and got out. And Kim S remained for them S. yes hi
    2. Eugene-Eugene
      29 October 2019 15: 15 New
      0
      there is still no apl
  • voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 29 October 2019 11: 16 New
    0
    AUG them 10 is enough for the eyes. Not needed 12. Can be cut by a couple.
    It is necessary to build ships for F-35B vertical ships. For 4-6 aircraft. Type: frigate with an extended take-off deck aft. And the hangar. A new type of ship: a mini-aircraft carrier.
    1. Nehist
      Nehist 29 October 2019 13: 19 New
      +1
      They had it during WWII-escort aircraft carriers were called, about 60 pieces riveted
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 29 October 2019 14: 16 New
      +2
      Quote: voyaka uh
      It is necessary to build ships for F-35B vertical ships. For 4-6 aircraft. Type: frigate with an extended take-off deck aft. And the hangar. A new type of ship: a mini-aircraft carrier.

      And it already was - in the 70s. The United States then actively promoted small and ultra-small ABs. But what is characteristic - the Yankees themselves built only large ABs, and all the projects of small ABs were turned off by others.
      And about basing the VTOL aircraft on frigates - and that was also. Skyhoook Project:

      VTOL hangs at the ship and is captured from above by a crane manipulator. After that, the crane moves the VTOL aircraft to the landing site.
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 29 October 2019 14: 20 New
        +1
        Previously, it was not easy to take off and land and a reliable vertical. Harrier was manually controlled, with a weak radar and no supersonic. Now there is a plane - you can build ships under it.
      2. Eugene-Eugene
        29 October 2019 15: 18 New
        0
        A soldier with BV is right, only now there is such a tool
  • Al Asad
    Al Asad 29 October 2019 12: 45 New
    0
    Is the Russian fleet a competitor to the US fleet?
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 29 October 2019 17: 08 New
      +2
      Quote: Al Asad
      Is the Russian fleet a competitor to the US fleet?

      When justifying an increase in the military budget, USN is still a competitor! smile
  • Denimax
    Denimax 29 October 2019 17: 28 New
    0
    It is clear that aircraft carriers in such numbers are expensive, and the benefits are very doubtful. Two or three would be enough. And it’s better to work out the concept of a preemptive strike, before the conflict escalates. Based on reconnaissance, both from the air and undercover, involving submarines with cruise missiles. IMHO