"After my death, a lot of garbage will be put on my grave, but the wind of history will mercilessly dispel it."

722
Stalin was not a thing of the past; he was dissolved in our future, no matter how saddened many were.
Epigraph of the French writer Pierre Kurtad to the book by Edgar Moren "On the nature of the USSR. The totalitarian complex and the new empire "


The red emperor. With the departure of Stalin, the course of development of Soviet (Russian) civilization changed. After the XX Congress of the CPSU on 25 on February 1956, the era of the Khrushchev “thaw” began, which resulted in de-Stalinization and degenerated into Brezhnev’s “stagnation” when the most negative tendencies of Khrushchev’s rule were liquidated or frozen, but on the whole, the course for degradation was maintained. Then the power and the people were brought to Gorbachev's "perestroika", which led to the destruction and robbery of the USSR. They introduced Yeltsin’s “democracy” and Putin’s “liberalism”, which led to huge losses, victims, suffering and misfortunes of the vast majority of ordinary people, the extinction of the Russian people.



"After my death, a lot of garbage will be put on my grave, but the wind of history will mercilessly dispel it."


Losses from the reign of the "perestroika", "democrats", "liberals" and "optimizers" are so huge that, according to scientists, they are several times higher than the damage from the invasion of the Nazis. Indeed, during the Great Patriotic War, the western part of our Motherland was destroyed. Today, the “effective managers” of the liberal spill are walking all over Russia.

The return of Stalin to Russia


The supporting pillars of the Stalinist system were so strong in Russia that they could not be dismantled even halfway in the 1990 and 2000 years. The woeful democrats were not able to break what was created under Stalin and after him in the Soviet civilization he built.

It came to the point that the good memory of the great Soviet leader was not only preserved, but as the "reformers" destroyed the legacy of the USSR and socialism in Russia, it only grew stronger. So, already in the 2000 years, the level of support for Stalin rose to 50%. This was forced to admit the liberal media. The newspaper "Version" No. 7 from 20.02.06 published the data of a opinion poll conducted by the Echo of Moscow radio station. To the question “In your opinion, did Stalin do more good or bad for the country?” The answers were: 54% - more good; 43% - more bad; 3% - found it difficult to answer.

Westerners and liberals are frightened by such results. Since the time of "perestroika" and the Yeltsin "democratic revolution" on Stalin from all TV channels and other media constantly pouring dirt. The black myths created in the West about "bloody Stalin" and the "evil empire of the USSR" were fully accepted in liberal Russia. However, ordinary people relate to Stalin better and better.

Attributed to Stalin, but, in fact, very strong words come true (from the conversation of I. Stalin with A. Kollontai, 1939 year):
“Many of the affairs of our party and people will be perverted and spat on, above all, abroad, and in our country too. ... And my name will also be defamed, slandered. Many crimes will be attributed to me. ... The strength of the USSR lies in the friendship of peoples. The edge of the struggle will be aimed primarily at breaking this friendship, at breaking off the outskirts of Russia. ... Nationalism will raise its head with particular force. He will crush internationalism and patriotism for a while, only for a while. National groups within nations and conflicts will arise. Many pygmy leaders will appear, traitors within their nations.

In general, in the future, development will go in more complex and even frantic ways, the turns will be extremely steep. The point is that the East will be especially agitated. There will be sharp contradictions with the West. And yet, no matter how events develop, but time will pass, and the eyes of new generations will be turned to the affairs and victories of our socialist Fatherland. Year after year, new generations will come. They will once again raise the banner of their fathers and grandfathers and give us their due. They will build their future on our past. ”


In the 1943 year, Stalin said:
“I know that after my death a lot of rubbish will be put on my grave, but the wind stories will mercilessly scatter her! ”


These words were prophetic. Indeed, the de-Stalinists did their utmost to denigrate Stalin's name. All possible and impossible sins were recorded on it. The West was able to destroy Soviet civilization. The main stake was placed on nationalism-Nazism. So, Nazism dominates the Baltic Limitrophs, in the Neo-Bandera Ukraine, the stake on nationalism is made in Transcaucasia and Central Asia. However, such a policy brings only death, grief and destruction. An example is Georgia: the war, the separation of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, or Ukraine-Little Russia: the reunification of Crimea with Russia, the uprising in the Donbas, the civil war and the threat of a new collapse. And all this against the backdrop of the degradation of the economy and economy, the extinction of the people: Little Russia, the Baltic States are dying out, the population of Georgia is declining (mainly due to the flight of people to more developed and prosperous countries).

The difficult situation in Russia. The "reformers" could not finish off the legacy of the social state, but they are trying with all their might to complete what was begun in 1985 — 1993. Hence the pension “reform”, which robbed people, new taxes on taxes, the growth of tariffs, food prices, gasoline. Preparing Pension Reform-2. People who have privatized the state are trying by all means to get rid of social obligations, transfer the people, school, health care system, etc. to "self-sufficiency."

“And the eyes of new generations” are now increasingly turning to “the deeds and victories of our socialist Fatherland”. So, in the spring of 2019, the level of Stalin’s approval in the Russian Federation beat up historical record. A survey of the Levada Center showed that 70% of the country's citizens positively assess Stalin's role in history. And almost half of the Russians are ready to justify the repressions of the Stalin era.

Matter of his life


Why did our society remember Stalin? After all, everything that was done in the Stalin era was subjected to censure from the highest stands and all the leading media. He was condemned and rejected both as a person and as a statesman. But Stalin was not forgotten, as liberals and Westerners desired and desire. Not forgotten due to what is happening on the political expanses of the former USSR. Reality makes us remember both about him personally and about the business he served.

It makes you remember under the yoke of ordinary, everyday reality. When a huge mass of people live in poverty, in poverty or on the verge of poverty. And at the same time, billionaire oligarchs and multimillionaires are becoming even richer every year. When colonels of power structures find stolen billions (!) Of rubles, millions of currency and valuables, not counting elite property. When governors flee abroad with stolen billions of national money. When our resources go to the West and East, and the currency received for them goes there too. When feuds are sown between the peoples of the former USSR (great Russia), they are waging war. When politics is carried out not in the interests of a power and people, but in the interests of foreign governments and centers of influence. When the great Russian people dies out. When the school is destroyed, and youth is turned into stupid consumer slaves. You can continue for a long time.

So ordinary people think: “I would try with him! ..” They recall real, not virtual victories. Under Stalin, such armed forces were built that, despite the military catastrophes of 1941 – 1942, defeated the best forces of the West - the Third Reich, and the East - militaristic Japan. After the victory of the 1945 of the year, the Soviet Army was the most powerful army on the planet, so the United States and Great Britain were afraid to immediately unleash a new “hot” world war, and began a “cold” - information war. Two generations of Soviet people lived in peace.

Stalin contributed to the cultural development of the people, the spread of mass physical education, and not defective professional sports (where professional athletes become millionaires, and the masses spend time drinking beer and TVs, overgrown with fat and sores). They skillfully coped with drunkenness, but there was no talk of drugs as a social disease. The Soviet leader did not fight vodka; he fought during the time of the Soviet people. Therefore, they actively developed physical education, amateur sports. Each enterprise and institution had a team and athletes from its employees, employees. All more or less large enterprises had and maintained their own stadium (not for professionals, but for their employees). We played and went in for sports practically everything and in all kinds. Also actively developed active recreation of people. Since Stalin, parks have remained in all cities of the Union. They were available to all citizens. They had a reading and playing halls (chess, checkers, billiards), a dance floor, a summer theater, ice cream sales, etc.

Under Stalin, the power in the most difficult starting conditions and as soon as possible rushed forward and not only overcame the lag behind the developed West, but became a superpower, a civilization of the future, a beacon for all mankind. This means that the state needed a mass of smart, educated people, skilled personnel in various fields of life. And this was indeed so, since Stalin attached great importance to the intellectual development of Soviet citizens. He himself was an intelligent man and strove to ensure that the whole country was reasonable. Hence, such attention to science and education. The Soviet school, relying on the best traditions of the Russian classical school-gymnasium, became the best in the world. In the USSR-Russia, so much has never been done to provide people with knowledge - the basis for reason and creativity. The Stalinist government in every way contributed to the development of domestic science and technology, the introduction of new technologies.

In his political testament, “The Economic Problems of Socialism in the USSR” (1952), Stalin directly wrote:
“It is necessary ... to achieve such a cultural growth of the society that would ensure all members of the society comprehensive development of their physical and mental abilities, so that members of the society have the opportunity to receive an education sufficient to become active workers in social development, so that they can freely choose their profession, and not be chained for life, due to the existing division of labor, to any profession. "


That is, Stalin understood that access to knowledge lies at the heart of the Western slaveholding "pyramid", a consumer society with the division of people into consumer slaves and masters of the "elect". Knowledge (information) is the key to the future of mankind.

In the field of economics, Stalin organized the crisis-free development of the national economy. While the whole world, based on the basis of the capitalist system, writhed in crisis, the USSR moved forward by leaps and bounds. The secret of the “Soviet miracle” is the refusal of loan usurious interest and in the planned system. This made it possible to transform the country from an agrarian-industrial to an industrial giant, to become the leading economy of Europe, to successfully prepare for a world war, and twice to raise the country from the ashes - unrest and war. And even begin to steadily lower prices for consumer goods, without raising the cost. For example, if in modern Russia wages increase, then prices and tariffs increase simultaneously, which allows usurious structures to cash in on the people.

If the Stalinist planning system had been preserved and reasonably improved, and Stalin understood the need to improve the socialist economy (it was not without reason that in 1952 his work “Economic Problems of Socialism in the USSR” appeared), if the task of further improving the living standards of the people was put in the first place ( the task of creating heavy industry, engineering and the military-industrial complex was basically solved), by 1970, we would already be in the top three countries with the highest standard of living. At the same time, the inertia of the Stalinist economy was so powerful, its plans and personnel resources were so outstanding that even with the voluntarism of Khrushchev and the apathy of Brezhnev, the country continued to develop.

Thus, Stalin implemented the concept of a fair living arrangement in the USSR-Russia (communism is the life of a commune-community on the basis of an ethics of conscience and truth). The civilization of the future came into being - a society of knowledge, service and creation, where creators and creators lived. Stalin's job is to make people's lives happy, joyful, and creative. Therefore, in Russia there is a revival of popular Stalinism.

To be continued ...
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  1. +72
    30 October 2019 15: 06
    It would not be bad if Stalin’s prophecy was actually realized and the descendants would build their future on the example of the past.

    1. +104
      30 October 2019 15: 12
      Something like that:
      1. +101
        30 October 2019 15: 28
        And I, a skeptic and a cynic, as I said a year ago:

        Long live the great Stalin!

        In the current historical conditions, Joseph Vissarionovich is the only authority for me.
        Stalin is more alive than all politicians who are now living.
        1. +44
          30 October 2019 16: 48
          Time and memory of people will inevitably clear the name of I.V. Stalin from dirt and slander, but this is not the main thing in this inevitable historical process. The main and most important thing in it is the revival of a socially just society and state based on the ideas of socialism-communism, social equality of people, to which Stalin and the Communist Party strove.

          Moreover, the very process of building a communist society, as a very distant and difficult to achieve goal, should serve only as a guideline to which humanity should strive for many centuries. And the main thing here will not even be the creation of an abundance of material wealth for people, the hardest thing will be from generation to generation to bring up new people whose public interests will be higher than personal ones.
          The peoples simply do not have another way, capitalism leads only to wars, discord and the eternal enslavement of people by capital and the exploiting classes.

          And in this historical movement, the example of Russia and our people is vivid proof of this, since on our own fate, for one generation of people, we felt the loss of a socially just USSR and the enslavement of the predatory predatory capitalism of modern Russia, we knew what was and what became , and the choice of the majority of the people for socialism is communism, which was proved by I.V. Stalin.
          1. +4
            31 October 2019 05: 14
            Well said! I completely agree!
            1. -24
              31 October 2019 08: 11
              Quote: polk26l
              a socially just society and state based on the ideas of socialism-communism, the social equality of people, to which Stalin and the Communist Party strove.

              The Communist Party privatized the country.
              At first, revolutionaries nationalized all property. Everything that people have created for centuries has been nationalized.
              Then by joint efforts it was created no less, and maybe more.
              And then the greedy communists privatized everything. They threw past owners and the whole Russian people.

              The communists turned out to be greedy people.

              We need a fair social society. But let's leave the greedy communists in the past. Do not step on the same rake.

              Stalin was essentially an autocrat. He did not care for the party. He lifted our country from his knees. Country, but not the Communist Party.
              1. +11
                31 October 2019 09: 33
                Quote: Vladimir16
                Stalin was essentially an autocrat. He did not care for the party. He lifted our country from his knees. Country, but not the Communist Party.

                To lift the country off its knees, he used the Communist Party, and the Communist Party itself was the focus of the ideas of the new Russia.
                1. -13
                  31 October 2019 13: 06
                  Definitely.
                  You have elevated the Communist Party to religious status. Replaced Jesus with the Communist Party. Only the opposite result - your idol and robbed you.
                  After all, the fact that the Communists divided and robbed the country.
                  At least bruise your forehead, but it is a fact.
                  And your minuses will never return the country.

                  Communists are evil. They are possessed.

                  But people perceived Stalin as the new tsar. They just called it differently — the leader (they could have put him behind the king to the wall).
                  And Vissarionitch ruled as an autocrat. And I felt responsibility for the country as an autocrat. And the result is the same - with the name of the autocrat, people went on the attack protecting the country from European trash.
                  Like centuries before.


                  And the communists are ordinary greedy grabbers who decided to enter paradise on someone else's hump.

                  The trouble is that the Communists have eradicated Orthodoxy among people, and in return they have decided to give their greedy essence. But in the end, the money ate everything human (Orthodox) in them and the essence remained - corrupt Judas.
                  1. 0
                    31 October 2019 15: 25
                    Quote: Vladimir16
                    You have elevated the Communist Party to religious status. Replaced Jesus with the Communist Party. Only the opposite result - your idol and robbed you.

                    So it was at all times! Since man learned to manipulate other people, creating all kinds of idols, many religions have perished. They absorb each other, absorbing the most reliable ways to control the human mind. The ancient gods were replaced by socialism and capitalism over time, in the same way something new will replace them over time. The censure of outgoing values ​​and the exaltation of new ones will remain unchanged.
                  2. +3
                    31 October 2019 16: 01
                    I completely agree with you. After the collapse of the Union, the people did not come to the Orthodox faith, and they destroyed the ideology. Now we are reaping the fruits of unbelief and separation ...
                    1. 0
                      1 November 2019 11: 36
                      What is wrong with unbelief ??
                      More precisely - what is bad in the belief that there are no gods in heaven ?? After all, they are not there .. this is even the oldest grandmother deep in the brain understands ..
                      Despite the fact that she had been driven around her ears all her life ..
                      No need for a new generation to pour this nonsense into their ears .. let’s better look at the next series from Stephen Hawking - How the Universe works ..
                      And it’s time to get out of the head for a long time .. The 21st century is in the yard, and the madmen continue to pay Gundyaeva Rolexes and flights to dachas in the Krasnodar Territory ..
                  3. +11
                    31 October 2019 22: 52
                    Quote: Vladimir16
                    The trouble is that the Communists have eradicated Orthodoxy among people

                    there cannot be two Suns in the sky (Chinese saying) laughing
                    Quote: Vladimir16
                    Communists are evil. They are possessed.

                    better to be a holy fool? smile
                    Quote: Vladimir16
                    Replaced Jesus with the Communist Party.
                    you have everything in a bunch! No one replaced Jesus - how can you replace him? He is a monument! ?? wassat
                    But the teachings of Marx and Lenin replaced the Bible, Stalin successfully continued the work of Jesus Christ, and achieved, it must be admitted, more. It is a pity that there were no worthy apostles.
                    But in general, seriously, do not confuse the Party under Stalin and the Party under Gorbachev. It’s not even different parties, it’s different countries!
                  4. +1
                    1 November 2019 01: 12
                    I agree with you. There is nothing to add.
                2. -3
                  31 October 2019 16: 14
                  Quote: sir.jonn
                  and the Communist Party itself was the concentration of the ideas of the new Russia.

                  Any party degrades over time
                  1. +3
                    1 November 2019 10: 28
                    Quote: Pilat2009

                    Any party degrades over time
                    The fish rots from the head. You need to change the holoca more often and everything will be OK. (who will change? Father of the people). Ivan the Terrible cut, not cut. Peter 1 didn’t cut, Lenin didn’t, but Stalin didn’t. It is more necessary that Mikayanov should not be slipped to us instead of Stalin (had a discussion on the VO site a couple of years ago about a possible wonderful ruler, in the person of Mikayan).
              2. +12
                31 October 2019 15: 03
                The communist to the communist discord !!! It is both Man and Man.
                As soon as the real leader of the country died, the jackals began the battle of the individuals adapted at the trough for the legacy he had built. After all, a lot has been done (they are still tearing this legacy to pieces and will not divide it in any way). And this happened because not everywhere on the ground (top to bottom) they could resist the temptation to have more in their pockets than their neighbors, and our geopolitical competitor - the West - actively playing on this, made our state "elite" pliable and greedy for bling. They bought it. And such "communists", who in fact jumped off this high pedestal, but still bear this title, have become ordinary opportunists to "new realities" - nepotism, bribery, protection, theft of state property, and so on. - these defects are known. Therefore, I still consider those who were them in the era of Stalin to be a communist, and then this worthy title began to be erased and humiliated with astronomical speed, and it was precisely such opportunists who began to do it. If they had been kicked out of the party in a timely manner, then the Communist would have sounded proud (Better less, but better!).
                1. AEF
                  +7
                  1 November 2019 00: 16
                  You are right that after J.V. Stalin, power in the country was seized by the "Khrushchev group", which was guided only by the goal of strengthening its personal power ambitions, disregarding the opinion of ordinary communists, and, in most cases, by bullying true, real communists - patriots.
                  The people, even during the reign of Khrushch himself, called him "maize", thereby expressing their attitude towards him. The people did not expect such a moronism of the authorities under his "leadership", and even then people began to express their dissatisfaction with the "results of his internal policy."
                  Events in Novocherkassk - this is what he led the country for several years of his reign.
                  Khrushchev - ok, and a pygmy who penetrated power under the guise of a party membership card and proximity to the country's top leadership.
                  The party began to aspire to people who want to get a "warm place" in the offices, careerists and swindlers, such as "Yeltsin and Gorbach", who destroyed the country of the USSR.
                  The coat of arms of today's Russia is a double-headed eagle. So it symbolizes today's elite of power in the country.
                  One "head" always looks to the west, thus expressing the pro-Western policy of the Medvedev government and its fulfillment of all the requirements of the IMF and other "Western governing structures."
                  And the second "head" - President Vladimir Putin, knocked off his feet, dangling around the country and around the world, settling "crises" and establishing "cooperation", trying to "please everyone" and "not offend anyone." But who will come after him, and where will Russia turn?
                2. MrK
                  +1
                  2 November 2019 12: 39
                  I agree. By the way. V.I. Lenin strongly opposed the reckless increase in the number of party members, which later became involved in the CPSU, starting with Khrushchev. In his work, “The Childish Disease of Leftism in Communism,” he wrote: “We are afraid of the party’s over-expansion, for careerists and crooks who deserve only to be shot are inevitably clinging to the party.”
                3. -3
                  2 November 2019 12: 44
                  .... Duc didn’t * die * his death - the accomplices got rid of the murderer ...
              3. +8
                1 November 2019 09: 06
                For your information. There was Lenin’s warning that people with different views and interests would aspire to the ruling party, especially when it would be one. This is one thing. Another - during the years of World War II, millions of true communists went to the front and died for their homeland, lost health in the rear, providing the front. If this were not so, the country would not have resisted, the people would not have believed the Communists .. But their place was gradually taken by precisely those other people who outwardly spoke and stood up for a cause in which they did not believe. So it is not necessary to blame the greed of all the Communists, since the state was destroyed, and then the management and income, as Berezovsky used to say, were precisely degenerates.
              4. 0
                7 November 2019 15: 43
                And maybe all the same the communists were not communists at all, judging by their deeds? And what do you have under the concept of "just social society"? Have you ever read the classics of Marxism? Or do you only know from the media that they are "byaki"? In the 3rd Reich, there was also a just social society in its own way, but the question always arises - "at whose expense the banquet"? And in ancient Rome everything was logical and fair and even socially, but only for citizens - it did not apply to slaves! So be careful with your labels!
          2. The comment was deleted.
          3. +2
            2 November 2019 20: 56
            Quote: vladimirZ
            Time and memory of people will inevitably clear the name of I.V. Stalin from dirt and slander ...

            That is why the Zionists hate Stalin?
            But he helped the Jews create the state of Israel ...
            they are ungrateful. (people cannot name the language)
            1. +1
              3 November 2019 06: 57
              That is why the Zionists hate Stalin? - vlad106 (Vlad)

              It depends on what and whom you consider Zionists. Zionism includes various movements from left-socialist to orthodox-religious.
              Common-minded common people, Jews are grateful to I. Stalin for their help in creating their own state of Israel.
              You did not listen to the speech of the politician publicist, former intelligence officer and former Soviet citizen Jacob Kedmi? He quite often appears on our TV, his many appearances on the Internet, by the way, he voices the attitude of Jews towards the USSR, I. Stalin, the collapse of the USSR, the traitors who destroyed the Union, and their position is favorable to us.
              And if you perceive Zionism as a “form of racism and racial discrimination” to other peoples in its various forms, this is another matter. But this is not entirely true. In the Jewish people, as in any other, a healthy core is good people, but like others there is a negative that people of other nationalities do not like, but the whole people cannot be judged by this negativity, this is not true.
              1. -2
                3 November 2019 08: 41
                Quote: vladimirZ
                Sensible common people Jews are grateful to I. Stalin

                For the cause of the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee.
                Quote: vladimirZ
                didn’t you listen to the former Soviet citizen Yakov Kedmi? He often appears on our TV,

                And where he appears, at Signor Soloviev, another Jew. It's hard to add anything to this, but I will add.

                If someone suddenly wonders what kind of Jews the GB at one time lodged with the Anti-Zionist Committee of the Soviet public, then the former Soviet citizens Kedmi and Soloviev remained, they can tell and show.

                Somewhere I heard that tragedies happen during the Brit Mila: the old mole-eyed moel can mix up and throw out the poor child. And the foreskin continues to live, impersonate a person, grow in ranks, like Gogol's Nose. Maybe it’s true, I don’t know.
        2. +18
          30 October 2019 17: 43
          Quote: depressant
          And I, a skeptic and a cynic, as I said a year ago:
          Long live the great Stalin!
          I am not a skeptic or a cynic, and I also support your words.
        3. +18
          30 October 2019 19: 58
          "Stalin is more alive than all living politicians"
          Yeah, the cadaver carries from all these Nabibulin and Medvedev with the Silunavs a mile away ...
          and they try to drag us away behind the heights behind us ..
        4. +13
          31 October 2019 06: 41
          There is one more point, that then there was a civil war and a severe crisis, Stalin - led during the civil war. A civil war is a terrible war where the population destroys each other. All horrors are the result of a citizen. Stalin was just doing his job at that time of crisis. The Russian so-called pseudo-liberals completely ignore the then-calls of a citizen, interventionists, hunger, banditry, etc.
          Any politician of times of crisis and war can be mixed with mud or, on the contrary, exalted, it is a matter of political will.
          British Stalin - Churchill, did quite a few bad things, but among the Angchians, he is the greatest.
          As Churchill ordered the food to be taken out of Bengal, the millionth country literally died out, the cities were filled with corpses, so BBS writes that this is (just) a stain in Churchill's biography, they say there was a big flow of information, you can’t keep track of everything, it happened so.
          Or Churchill’s statement about the use of toxic gases -

          "I cannot understand this disgust with regard to the use of gas," he wrote when he worked at the War Department in 1919. "I am a staunch supporter of the use of poison gas against uncivilized tribes."
          They hire excellent word masters who neutralize the bad and put in good light.
          But we have made a political decision to shame on Stalin, which is sad.
        5. +21
          31 October 2019 09: 02
          Quote: depressant
          And I, a skeptic and a cynic, as I said a year ago:

          Long live the great Stalin!

        6. +8
          31 October 2019 12: 34
          "In the current historical conditions, Iosif Vissarionovich is the only authority for me" - you can't say more precisely
          for all of us - the only authority
          1. 0
            5 November 2019 11: 58
            ... strange - my parents modestly carried out a portrait of Stalin from the room into the pantry after his death .. - well, they loved him so much - I won’t save ..
        7. +6
          1 November 2019 08: 58
          I think under Stalin, pension reform would not have worked, I definitely vote for Stalin
        8. +3
          1 November 2019 12: 47
          Quote: depressant
          And I, a skeptic and a cynic, as I said a year ago:

          Long live the great Stalin!

          In the current historical conditions, Joseph Vissarionovich is the only authority for me.
          Stalin is more alive than all politicians who are now living.


          Portraits of Stalin are in the officials' offices and they themselves will die of malice and bile.
        9. 0
          7 November 2019 15: 08
          And I always say that Stalin's personality is too large-scale to try to evaluate it now, in our time. It's like looking at, say, a painting by I. Aivazovsky "The Ninth Wave", with your nose buried in it. It will be possible to truly appreciate Stalin only in 150-200 years. Because, as they say, "everything big is seen at a distance." Take, for example, the personality of Peter I. After all, a despot and a tyrant, which are few. Not that "his hands are in blood up to the elbows," but he poured blood all over Russia - Mother Russia almost drowned in that blood. However, for what he accomplished in terms of the development of the Russian state, we call him GREAT!
      2. +28
        30 October 2019 15: 41
        Stalin, in the first place, was a Patriot. That's right - with a capital letter.
        1. -67
          30 October 2019 17: 15
          Both of my grandfathers who died in the Second World War were no less patriots. And they have the right to ask the question: how did it happen that the great leader and best friend of the military and all the others miscalculated so much with the outbreak of war?
          On what basis did he consider only his opinion to be the only true one? Why the fifth grader in June 41 could ask himself: what will happen if Hitler still attacks first?
          But the great strategist did not even allow such a thought. He believed that he had outwitted everything. Although the position was obliged to provide for all war scenarios, including the most negative.
          And what is the result?
          Unheard of rout of the entire personnel spacecraft in June 1941
          Tens of millions of dead Soviet soldiers and civilians. But there could be fewer of them ...
          1. +33
            30 October 2019 17: 35
            Quote: Chit
            Why the fifth grader in June of the 41st could ask himself: what will happen if Hitler still attacks first?

            Because if Stalin was the first to attack, the defeat would be even worse. In 1941, the German army was better - alas, these are the facts. In addition, there was a chance that you would have to fight not only with Germany, but also with England and the United States.
            1. -47
              30 October 2019 18: 13
              What does "better" mean?
              Did the Germans have more tanks?
              Airplanes?
              Artillery guns?
              Personnel?
              So I will disappoint you. Absolute superiority in armament and manpower in 1941 was on the side of the USSR.
              I bothered to get acquainted with the statistics. She is freely available. You will be very surprised.
              1. +37
                30 October 2019 18: 27
                What is better? The Germans had much better control, the interaction between the armed forces. They excelled us in operational and tactical art, in logistics. Finally, the structure of units, in comparison with ours, was more perfect. Amount of military equipment, especially aviation? Here in the first place is the quality of weapons and the level of training of specialists. We pulled ourselves up to the German level only in 1943
                1. -44
                  30 October 2019 18: 45
                  What kind of weapons can we talk about?
                  You do not know that the Soviet artillery systems were the best in the world for 1941?
                  You do not know that the Germans did not even have anything closely similar to the T-34 and KV?
                  Regarding logistics, operational and tactical art, all questions are to Comrade Stalin, who is sculpted on this branch on a monument.
                  If Comrade Stalin had preoccupied on the eve of the war not with the mass arrests and executions of the high command of the Red Army, but with the same logistics, there would have been more sense.
                  1. +35
                    30 October 2019 19: 15
                    And you compare the engine life of thirty-fours and HF with German Pz. Compare crew training. The radioification of tanks and, associated with it, the management of units. Lack of vehicles in tank units, as a result of this lack of fuel and ammunition. Lack of air cover. You think that over 10 years of industrialization it was technically possible to equip the Red Army. The much more technologically advanced France and Britain leaked the war in 5 weeks. There to whom questions?
                    1. -44
                      30 October 2019 20: 14
                      But where does the motor resource, if Soviet tanks burned at the very border? Some even did not have time to move. For they were located not in the depths, but near the border. Moreover, often without fuel and ammunition. Whose fault is this configuration of forces
                      My? Or Stalin and Zhukov?
                      Regarding the training of crews, to whom do you claim? To Guderian? Gotu? To Manstein?
                      Or to the Soviet commanders led by Stalin? The same Stalin who created the system of his sole power? The same Stalin who missed the start of the war? The same Stalin, because of the grossest political and military mistakes which killed tens of millions of people? Including my both grandfathers? The same Stalin, without whose order no one would begin the radioification of the same tanks?
                      About the cover from the air. Is it a smart move to make airfields to the border itself? Why do I understand that in this situation the very first German air strike would destroy everything, but Comrade Stalin had not thought of that before?
                      There is nothing to blame on France. She did not flood the enemy with the corpses of her soldiers. Yes, she capitulated quickly. But compare the French losses with ours!
                      As for Britain, she started the war with Germany at a time when the Kremlin raised glasses for the health of Adolf Hitler. Then she fought all 5 years. And she accepted the surrender of Germany along with the USSR.
                      1. +27
                        30 October 2019 20: 39
                        Quote: Chit
                        As for Britain, she started the war with Germany at a time when the Kremlin raised glasses for the health of Adolf Hitler. Then she fought all 5 years.

                        Do not write nonsense, the fate of victory over fascism was decided on the fronts of the USSR, and not Great Britain!
                        Chit, you are not tired of pretending to be a fool here, a liberal strategist ... The question of the beginning of the war was repeatedly before you. There were very big miscalculations in command and control, and the Germans (saboteurs) at the beginning of the war did much to disorganize the Red Army and, of course, the actions of Stalin himself and to a greater extent of his environment.
                        And it is not necessary here to bring confusion and enmity in the minds of Russians towards Stalin. The Russians are not going to sprinkle their heads with ash and make excuses to provocateurs and your narrow-minded friends from abroad for past historical events like you!
                      2. +11
                        31 October 2019 08: 29
                        Quote: Chit
                        You are not aware that ...

                        Shit (or how to read his anostranny rattle correctly?) Read Suvorov. Not a Russian commander, but a traitor who escaped from the country by cowardice and spilled slops.
                        Shit, everyone has a head on their shoulders to think for themselves.
                        And repeat the said parrot case.

                        Even minus you put zapadlo.

                        ps shit is that shit?
                      3. +8
                        31 October 2019 12: 37
                        shit is that shit?

                        yes, stupid and smelly
                      4. +9
                        30 October 2019 21: 15
                        Your incompetence, spilled out from the depths of a sick consciousness, is striking in its depth and versatility. In other words, with your knowledge of history, only sheep graze.
                      5. The comment was deleted.
                      6. +8
                        31 October 2019 07: 11
                        Quote: Chit
                        As for Britain, she started the war with Germany at a time when the Kremlin raised glasses for the health of Adolf Hitler.

                        Oh yes, she fought !!!!! Dunkirk was cool!))) After this "great" battle, the PP was made from water pipes))))
                      7. +8
                        31 October 2019 08: 20
                        Questions about tanks without fuel to the traitor Pavlov, all incidents of outright idiocy occurred in his district, including the shameful encirclement of an entire division in the Brest Fortress. All orders were sent to him ahead of time.

                        French losses 100%. The army ceased to exist, raising its hands and heading into captivity. The question is, in FIG such an army was needed at all? For some reason, our grandfathers wanted to do so much less.
                      8. -12
                        31 October 2019 08: 48
                        Quote: EvilLion
                        raising his hands and heading captive. The question is, in FIG such an army was needed at all? For some reason, our grandfathers wanted to do so much less.

                        Umm. I would not raise the issue of prisoners following the summer of the 41st.

                        It is another matter that Comrade Stalin's army of the 41st year, as it turned out, was not the last.
                      9. +5
                        31 October 2019 18: 05
                        After an unexpected attack, after the defeat, the USSR continued to fight and won.
                        France had six months of training, quickly lost, but having the resources (south of France, colonies in Africa, South America, Asia) surrendered.
                      10. -2
                        31 October 2019 18: 19
                        The Soviet method (permanent mobilization) is not suitable for the French, the sizes are not the same. To continue to fight it is necessary to fight at the operational level no worse than the Germans.
                      11. -5
                        31 October 2019 18: 35
                        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
                        but having resources (south of France, colonies in Africa, South America, Asia) surrendered.

                        Have you heard anything about Fighting France?
                      12. +3
                        31 October 2019 19: 55
                        Quote: tesser
                        "Fighting France"

                        Seven divisions of the “Fighting France” participated in the Allied landings in Normandy in 1944, and one squadron fought on the eastern front.
                        Not enough
                      13. -5
                        31 October 2019 20: 06
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Not enough

                        8 divisions for partisans in essence?
                      14. +2
                        31 October 2019 20: 12
                        Quote: tesser
                        for partisans in fact

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        participated in the Allied landings in Normandy in 1944

                        It’s not really partisans.
                      15. -4
                        31 October 2019 23: 58
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        It’s not really partisans.

                        On someone else's grub? Pretty well. And in the spring of the 45th there were 1,5 million people under arms.
                      16. +2
                        1 November 2019 05: 58
                        Quote: tesser
                        On someone else's grub?

                        And England and the United States have always sought to fight with the wrong hands, even if it was necessary to pay for it, so if there was an opportunity to collect more, they would have done it without hesitation.
                      17. -4
                        1 November 2019 06: 33
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        be there the opportunity to collect more

                        In Dakar and Syria?
                      18. 0
                        1 November 2019 08: 56
                        Quote: tesser
                        In Dakar and Syria?

                        When an ally landed in the African colonies of France, they had to fight the French army. Not that until the last cartridge, but nonetheless.
                      19. +2
                        1 November 2019 10: 41
                        And where is such a country located?
                        I'm serious.
                        The organization ("fighting France", "fighting Denmark", "fighting Japan", "fighting Germany") is not a country. And even if they continue to fight for at least 10 years, it does not change the essence, the country has lost.
                      20. +1
                        31 October 2019 20: 57
                        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
                        After an unexpected attack, after the defeat, the USSR continued to fight and won.
                        France had six months of training, quickly lost, but having the resources (south of France, colonies in Africa, South America, Asia) surrendered.

                        Between the case, p / n 58447 does not mean anything? If not, squeeze it.
                      21. +1
                        31 October 2019 18: 20
                        Is that all? When was mobilization announced in BelOVO?
                      22. +6
                        31 October 2019 10: 56
                        Quote: Chit
                        Regarding the training of crews, to whom do you claim?


                        The fact that we had more equipment and weapons was precisely the merit of Stalin, and the fact that the BP was failed was the fault of the general of the Red Army.
                        As soon as you understand this, you will understand the reasons for the failures at the beginning of the war.
                      23. +10
                        31 October 2019 12: 13
                        Dear, still Lenin V.I. performed by Schukin in one of the films of the early 30s he used to say: one can ask so many questions that 1000 smart ones will not answer.
                        There is no need to pretend to be a simpleton and thereby try to hide your liberal nature. She looks through your every question, climbs, and just ask: here - I, liberal, now I will destroy all the idiots who believe in Stalin with an abstruse question ... No matter how it is, in Russia there have long been few fools left who peck at such a liberal chatter. The people of Russia have perfectly figured out who really cares for Russia, the Fatherland, the people, and who is trying to pick this people up, selling Mother to Russia and the Motherland. So, "our cause is just, the enemy will be defeated, victory will be ours." And you'd better perform somewhere on the "Echo of Moscow", on the Rain, etc. together with local screamers such as Svanidze, Sobchak, Albats, Borovoy, Venediktov, M. Gaidar, Gudkovs, E. Kiselev, Ponomarev, Shenderovich, etc. - here are some. Add to this the worthy HSE professorship, one has already become too famous for his ruphobic statements about Russia, the Russian language and the people of Russia. The country should know its "heroes", all those who are trying with all their might to destroy it, destroy it, sell it to our sworn friends, not even for a pittance, but for a bowl of stew at the kennel of wolfhounds, who have attacked Russia.
                        And now to the point. An attempt to destroy, belittle Stalin's greatness, blaming him for all the flaws of the first period of the war, is a mediocre, waste of time, firstly, because any leader, any person, such as Stalin, has miscalculations, wrong decisions, and secondly , when comparing, when assessing the activities of a particular leader or manager, it is necessary to evaluate the entire period, and not to tear out from history some separate, even extremely unpleasant, periods. Yes, no doubt, the initial period of the Second World War was terrible for the Fatherland. The question was generally about the survival of the people themselves, the Fatherland. But this is the greatness of the leader, the leader, that despite the colossal losses and setbacks of the initial period of the war, the Great Leader mobilizes, mobilizes the country, the people and, ultimately, wins the war, which seemed to be lost at the initial stage. The Great Patriotic War won is a feat of Stalin himself as the leader of the state, this is a feat of the people led by Stalin, this is a feat of our Red Army, which knew that it was fighting for the Motherland, for the Fatherland, for the people, for Stalin. And you, friends, liberals, this feat can never be belittled and destroyed. You will leave, the tares of lies and vilification of our Motherland, the Fatherland, raised by you, will go into oblivion, and the truth about the feat of the people led by Stalin, the truth about Stalin's creation, about the power that the Motherland reached under his leadership, will shine and illuminate the path for all patriots Russia, to all those for whom the fate of Russia, the Fatherland is his fate, and not a piece of bread in the backyard of liberal and Anglo-Saxon history ...

                        "People-State-Fatherland" is the slogan of every Russian patriot. A strong state, a united people, a prosperous country for centuries, which cannot be broken by internal and external enemies.
                      24. 0
                        1 November 2019 17: 21
                        For today's managers: "Fatherland State Tax" ...
                      25. +5
                        31 October 2019 18: 01
                        As for Britain, she calmly negotiated with Germany and indulged the Nazis, while the USSR was already at war with the Nazis in Spain.
                      26. -7
                        31 October 2019 18: 37
                        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
                        she calmly negotiated with Germany and indulged the Nazis, while the USSR was already at war with the Nazis in Spain.

                        You see, at first the USSR fought, and Britain agreed, then Britain fought, the USSR agreed, then all the same. It’s a matter of gain.
                      27. +3
                        1 November 2019 10: 48
                        Profitable.
                        When the USSR called "let's unite and stop together - with little blood", England and France preferred to come to an agreement. And then.....
                      28. -6
                        1 November 2019 11: 48
                        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
                        let's unite and stop together - with little blood

                        As the Red Army stops the Germans, it showed in the 39th year in Poland, more precisely, Western Belarus and Western Ukraine. No one, primarily Poland, expected anything else from the USSR. In the 39th, the mentioned option from Stetsin in the Baltic Sea to Trieste in the Adriatic was not yet suitable.
                      29. +2
                        1 November 2019 16: 04
                        Ethiopia, Spain and Czechoslovakia showed how Great Britain and France stop the fascists (you can also recall China, Japan was stopped there). After all, in the years 1934-1938 it was possible to unite and jointly beat the Nazis. England and France preferred to negotiate (and actually pretend to be fascists) rather than stop the aggressors. When the USSR to some extent did the same thing as England and France did, for some reason it became bad.
                        KA Germans in 1939 did not stop. And there was no option for an alliance between the USSR, England and France. If there would be an alliance, and the SC, instead of fighting, would prefer to put up with it, while AiF were fighting, then your claims against the USSR would still be justified.
                        But there was no union, and claims to the USSR were bypassed.
                        By the way, how did Western Ukraine and Western Belarus become part of Poland?
                        Maybe that's why Poland did not want to negotiate with the USSR?
                        If Poland was expecting only a "stab in the back" from the USSR, then maybe it was better to establish friendship with its neighbors? With Czechoslovakia, Lithuania, and finally with Germany to solve the problems through negotiations?
                        In the 39th, the mentioned option from Stetsin in the Baltic Sea to Trieste in the Adriatic was not yet suitable.

                        More details, please
                      30. -3
                        1 November 2019 17: 37
                        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
                        how Britain and France stop fascists showed Ethiopia

                        Did someone stop them?
                        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
                        Spain

                        Stop the Nazis and surrender Spain to Comrade Negrin? What for?
                        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
                        and Czechoslovakia

                        Yes, it turned out ugly. On the other hand, in the Sudetenland, so you know, by the 38th fall, demonstrations were going German speaking, german worldthat's all. So outwardly everything looked relatively civilized, we went to meet the appeals of citizens, so to speak.
                        Comrade Stalin, for example, could not refuse two years later to the working people of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia, who suddenly wanted to in the USSR. At least, according to the USSR, they wanted this.
                        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
                        If there would be an alliance, and the SC, instead of fighting, would prefer to put up with it, while AiF were fighting, then your claims against the USSR would still be justified.
                        But there was no union, and claims to the USSR were bypassed.

                        You see, it seems I was misunderstood. I do not oblige the late comrade. Stalin's being a girl in this brothel. Everyone there was good, including the poor, dismembered Poles. However, fans of Comrade Stalin, like himself, liked to try on a white coat of the most important and irreconcilable fighters against fascism in general and with Mr. Hitler in particular. This is in vain.
                        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
                        By the way, how did Western Ukraine and Western Belarus become part of Poland?

                        What confuses you? You do not ask how Eastern Ukraine and Eastern Belarus had anything to do with the RSFSR.
                        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
                        maybe it was better to establish friendship with neighbors? With Czechoslovakia, Lithuania, finally with Germany to solve problems through negotiations?

                        Give a corridor? Perhaps that would be reasonable. Although the devil knows him. Friendship with Lithuania against the Reich and the USSR would hardly have helped, Czechoslovakia was no longer there at that time. By the way, it was divided by Germany, Hungary and Poland, not England and not France.
                      31. +1
                        1 November 2019 19: 54
                        Did someone stop them?

                        AIF - no one. But Italy had begun to stop the aggression against Ethiopia. England and France themselves, on the contrary, actually helped Italy (let no one intervene, this is the business of Italy and Ethiopia).
                        Stop the Nazis and surrender Spain to Comrade Negrin? What for?

                        Franco - a rebel, rebelled, why not leave the legitimate authority?
                        Yes, it turned out ugly. On the other hand, in the Sudetenland, so that you know, by the 38th fall, the demonstrations of the German-speaking were in full swing, the German world, that's all. So outwardly everything looked relatively civilized, we went to meet the appeals of citizens, so to speak.
                        Comrade Stalin, for example, could not refuse two years later to the working people of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia, who suddenly wanted to in the USSR. At least, according to the USSR, they wanted this.

                        And the Baltic countries for some reason with arms in their hands did not defend their freedom. But the USSR did not immediately capture them, but was selected — there was time to think, to understand what was happening. If you do not like the Soviet version.
                        Give a corridor? Perhaps that would be reasonable. Although the devil knows him. Friendship with Lithuania against the Reich and the USSR would hardly have helped, Czechoslovakia was no longer there at that time. By the way, it was divided by Germany, Hungary and Poland, not England and not France.

                        So maybe it was worth Czechoslovakia to come to the rescue in 1938, and not to tear it together?
                      32. +1
                        1 November 2019 16: 29
                        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
                        As for Britain, she calmly negotiated with Germany and indulged the Nazis, while the USSR was already at war with the Nazis in Spain.

                        The USSR never fought with Spain, there were Soviet military experts in Spain, and yet there were no fascists in Spain, there were nationalists
                      33. +3
                        1 November 2019 16: 39
                        Quote: RUSS
                        and yet there were no fascists in Spain, there were nationalists

                        Which did not stop Franco from sending Spanish soldiers to Leningrad.
                      34. -1
                        1 November 2019 17: 39
                        Quote: Stroporez
                        Which did not stop Franco from sending Spanish soldiers to Leningrad.

                        International debt payment is red.
                      35. +1
                        1 November 2019 19: 10
                        Quote: tesser
                        International debt by payment is red

                        Pardonte, and what was Hitler and Franco's international, and, consequently, international duty?
                      36. -2
                        2 November 2019 07: 38
                        Quote: Stroporez
                        Pardonte, and what was Hitler and Franco's international,

                        And I'm not talking about Hitler. I'm talking about tribute to the internationalist warriors, regarding give the land of Grenada to the peasants. In particular, personally in front of Army General Pavlov, Hero of the Soviet Union, an enemy of the people.
                      37. -2
                        1 November 2019 17: 40
                        Quote: RUSS
                        there were no fascists in Spain, there were nationalists

                        Franco, after all, is considered to be a fascist.
                      38. 0
                        5 November 2019 05: 42
                        last paragraph and everything becomes clear. so in whose army did your grandfathers serve and what does Stalin have to do with it?
                    2. +2
                      1 November 2019 09: 02
                      I would add to you the organizational structure of the German tank division was ideal, if the Luftwaffe would be scary, the modern material part + the professionalism of the flight crew
                  2. +30
                    30 October 2019 19: 45
                    If
                    Strange in recent history, power is untouchable. They are not responsible for anything, they have nothing to do with it everywhere. They cry that they were deceived everywhere by their partners. You have Stalin, one defendant for everything
                  3. +5
                    30 October 2019 21: 25
                    There is such a thing - a strategic initiative. at the beginning of the war she was on the side of the fascists. Whoever owns the initiative is the one who hits first, creating a numerical superiority in the breakout areas, and try to guess where they will hit. Regarding tanks - episodes of the successful struggle of the Germans with the "KB" and "T-34" you can collect not less, if not more, than examples of returning from battle with a hundred dents in armor. From the first days of the war, the Wehrmacht encountered new Soviet tanks, ultimately solving these problems due to anti-tank and anti-aircraft artillery mainly. Here is an excerpt from the combat report:

                    1. On the tank "KB"
                    a) When a shell and large-caliber bullets hit, the tower is jammed in pursuit and the armored caps are jammed.
                    b) The diesel engine has a small power reserve, as a result of which the motor is overloaded and overheated.
                    c) Main and onboard clutches fail.
                    2. On the tank "T-34"
                    a) The armor of vehicles and bodies from a distance of 300 – 400 m is penetrated by an 37-mm armor-piercing projectile. The plumb sheets of the sides are pierced by an 20-mm armor-piercing projectile. When overcoming ditches due to the low installation, the cars burrow with their noses, traction with the soil is insufficient due to the relative smoothness of the tracks.
                    b) With a direct hit of a shell, the front hatch of the driver falls through.
                    c) The caterpillar of the car is weak - it takes any shell.
                    d) The main and onboard friction clutches fail ”



                  4. +8
                    31 October 2019 08: 24
                    Pz-IV in the 1942 year, when the versions with the long-barreled 75 mm appeared better than the T-34. Pz-III with 50 mm gun appeared after France, they completely penetrate the T-34.

                    If Stalin had not bothered with the arrests of Tukhachevsky and other traitors, then he would not have had to fight, they would have given the country to the Germans. Not to mention the fact that these were people in the mass even without a military education, who jumped from junior officers to generals during the civil years, in contrast to the marshals-winners who went to the 1910-1930th all levels of service and were trained in academies.
                    1. -7
                      31 October 2019 13: 10
                      Quote: EvilLion
                      If Stalin had not attended to the arrests of Tukhachevsky and other traitors

                      What makes you think that Tukhachevsky was a traitor?
                      1. MrK
                        +1
                        2 November 2019 12: 59
                        For example, in the West, memoirs of the former Soviet intelligence officer Alexander Orlov (Leiba Feldbin), who fled from our country at the end of the 30's, having seized a huge amount of government dollars, were published at one time. Orlov, who knew well the “inner kitchen” of his native NKVD, directly wrote that a coup was being prepared in the Soviet Union. Among the conspirators, he said, were both representatives of the NKVD leadership and the Red Army represented by Marshal Mikhail Tukhachevsky and the commander of the Kiev military district, Jonah Yakir. The plot became known to Stalin, who pre-took a very harsh retaliatory action ...
                        If you want to know about the causes of repression, and not the nonsense of liberals, read the article: STALIN REPRESSIONS OF THE 30 OF THE YEARS. ARE YOU SURE THAT THEY ARE STALIN? http://www.proza.ru/2017/06/13/60
                      2. -2
                        2 November 2019 13: 17
                        Quote: mrark
                        memoirs of the former Soviet intelligence officer Alexander Orlov (Leiba Feldbin), who fled from our country in the late 30s, taking a huge amount of government dollars.

                        Well, a fluent NKVDshnik will not lie.
                      3. -1
                        2 November 2019 14: 45
                        Quote: mrark
                        For example, in the West

                        According to one version, the accusations against Tukhachevsky were based on a “red folder” partially hacked by the Nazi secret services and handed over to Stalin through Czechoslovak President Benes with evidence of Tukhachevsky’s secret contacts with the German General Staff.

                        In his memoirs, Schellenberg mentions the transfer of incriminating evidence to Tukhachevsky, saying that there was very little fabrication there (all documents were prepared in 4 days), mainly to compromise the German General Staff [40]. However, the version is expressed that this was organized by Stalin himself with a double purpose - to weaken the German General Staff and to get a reason to fight Tukhachevsky “from the side”.

                        “The criminal case against Tukhachevsky was entirely based on his own confessions, and there are absolutely no references to specific incriminating facts received from abroad. If such documents existed, then I, as the deputy head of intelligence, who oversaw the German direction on the eve of the war, would certainly have seen them or knew about their existence.
                        P. A. Sudoplatov
                  5. -10
                    31 October 2019 08: 30
                    Quote: Chit
                    You do not know that the Soviet artillery systems were the best in the world for 1941?

                    Believe less Comrade Rezun and Svistobol Grabin. Systems such as Soviet ones in other countries have long been launched for remelting. The British - back in the 20s, the Americans - in the 41st.
                    The USSR could not afford modern art for the 41st year.
                    This I’m not talking about the state from August 41st, a monument to poverty.
                    Quote: Chit
                    You do not know that the Germans did not even have anything closely similar to the T-34 and KV?

                    That is yes. Such a gentleman as KV, the anti-fascist Vibikke piled in the 43rd, and then by the end of the year technologists more or less patched up. The 34-year-old T-41 was generally beyond the scope of everything human, the Germans could not even imagine that tanks could be made the way they did in Kharkov.
                    Quote: Chit
                    Regarding logistics, operational and tactical art, all questions are to Comrade Stalin.

                    If there is water in the tap, Stalin poured it in there!
                    Quote: Chit
                    mass arrests and executions of senior officers of the Red Army, as well as the same logistics, would have been more useful.

                    Of course. But only the enchanting Hassan and Halkin-Gol (no less enchanting than the Finnish) were led by the almost uncommitted comrade. Stalin's army.
                  6. +4
                    31 October 2019 09: 47
                    Look ... "Rezun-Suvorov" himself has come ... am
                  7. +2
                    1 November 2019 00: 11
                    Unfortunately, executions and purges in the Red Army yielded only a partial result. The conspiracy was decapitated politically, but at the lower levels the structures of the conspirators were preserved, and the results of their activities are clearly visible on the example of the actions of the BOVO leadership in June 1941
                    Unfortunately Pavlov and his accomplices were shot too late
                    It was the defeat in Belarus that led to the collapse of the entire front and the summer disaster of 1941
                    And another interesting moment, who promoted Little-Experienced Kirponos, the former head of the military school to the post of commander of KOVO

                    And the most interesting moment, who planned to come to power in the country after the German troops entered the Arkhangelsk-Astrakhan line in the fall of 1941, who planned the seizure of power in the country against the backdrop of a military defeat according to a scheme that almost corresponded to the plan of Tukhachevsky and by analogy with the 1917 coups
                2. +3
                  30 October 2019 21: 53
                  Do not forget that the military doctrine of the USSR at that time was "to beat the enemy on its territory", but it did not work. The military, of course, knew about defense, but how to use it on a national scale was not worked out. Hence the monstrous losses in attacks at a time when it was necessary to build an echeloned defense.
                  And the German had already mentally fought on earth, in heaven and on water. And the goal was aggressive: with future "nishtyaks" to the winners, allotments of land, people for work (into slavery). For such purposes, you can stomp and stomp.
                  1. +3
                    31 October 2019 08: 28
                    You know, but any army tries to beat the enemy on its territory, it’s easier and less problematic. This slogan is simply no doctrine. Stop writing nonsense. Defense, however, always exists simultaneously with the offensive, and a real war often takes place in conditions of mutual attacks in different directions. The advancing troops themselves are constantly on the defensive, while regrouping is underway, some bridgeheads, etc. are being captured, and the enemy is trying to prevent this with counterattacks.
                3. +1
                  31 October 2019 06: 20
                  I agree with you completely.
              2. +23
                30 October 2019 20: 06
                "I took the trouble to get acquainted with the statistics. They are freely available. You will be greatly surprised."
                And there is also such military fun - to create a multiple advantage in the directions of the main blow ...
                and more fun - guess the direction the first time ...
                and yet - try out of 1500 predictions of the beginning of the war to find the right one ...
                and yet - in no case do not provoke, otherwise you will be considered as an achressor, and then goodbye help ...
                and further ...
                and further ..
              3. +4
                31 October 2019 06: 07
                Quote: Chit
                What does "better" mean?

                The fact that although the USSR had
                Quote: Chit
                Absolute superiority in armament and manpower in 1941
                Germans reached Moscow and Leningrad. The army is a system in which the presence of weapons does not mean superiority on the battlefield.
                Quote: Chit
                If Comrade Stalin had preoccupied on the eve of the war not with mass arrests and executions of the high command staff of the Red Army
                That result could be even worse.
              4. +1
                31 October 2019 06: 55
                You are ours, dear. The matter is not in quantity, but as armament.
                1. +5
                  31 October 2019 08: 32
                  In the conditions of a very large war, it was still more likely in quantity, if only it would not break, although with this in the Red Army, of course, everything was bad, the tsar-priest did not leave the heavy. industry, and what they created, she did not have time. The problem with the quality of weapons is that creating weapons is much easier than defensive equipment, and an advanced tank can become a pile of metal after receiving only 1 shell in the barrel.
                  1. 0
                    1 November 2019 00: 22
                    Actually, dreadnoughts were built in Tsarist Russia, the Obukhov Plant and Motovilikha were operating, the southern Donbass Mining and Metallurgical Complex was formed in addition to the Ural factories, a GOELRO plan was prepared, etc.
                2. +5
                  31 October 2019 11: 47
                  Quote: nikvic46
                  You are ours, dear. The matter is not in quantity, but as armament.

                  And even more important is the quality of weapons, how trained personnel are in handling these weapons, especially on the battlefield.
              5. +7
                31 October 2019 08: 16
                You won’t believe it, but the Germans really had a lot more personnel, not to mention the spatial distribution, as for tanks and planes, there should be a bunch of vehicles for one plane or tank in the army, nothing like German art. for tractors of the USSR, for example, in principle, did not have in commercial quantities. So you need to familiarize yourself with statistics. As with the basics of mob. deployment and the military-political situation in the world at a time when the United States, the largest economy in the world, was going to help the attacker.
                1. -6
                  31 October 2019 08: 52
                  Quote: EvilLion
                  in general, they were going to help the one they attacked.

                  In the sense of Germany, if Comrade Stalin was the first to?

                  Would they break through the English blockade or what?
                  1. +3
                    31 October 2019 09: 12
                    So what? The main thing is not who is right, but to participate, having proposed the winning side, which will be on the operating table, the Marshall Plan.
                  2. +4
                    31 October 2019 11: 03
                    Quote: tesser
                    Would they break through the English blockade or what?

                    Why did Rudy Hess fly to them, just like that? Moreover, the Germans and the British are much more kindred souls than with the Slavs. The Saxons played an important role in the formation of English culture.
                    1. -8
                      31 October 2019 11: 53
                      Quote: Mordvin 3
                      Why did Rudy Hess fly to them, just like that?

                      Which is it caulked for life?
                      1. +4
                        31 October 2019 12: 25
                        Quote: tesser
                        Which is it caulked for life?

                        And banged in the end.
                      2. -6
                        31 October 2019 12: 34
                        Quote: Mordvin 3
                        banged in the end.

                        In 1987? What vengeful people, these are your British. And you say, you would have reconciled with Adolf instantly.
                      3. +5
                        31 October 2019 12: 51
                        Quote: tesser
                        In 1987?

                        Exactly. And they need it, so that Hess would talk to the whole world, what did they agree on there?
                      4. -6
                        31 October 2019 14: 50
                        Quote: Mordvin 3
                        they need it so that Hess would talk to the whole world, what did they agree on there?

                        Somehow lousy agreed, no? And Hess spoke in Nuremberg, so there would be a desire. There is nothing to lose.
                      5. +4
                        31 October 2019 16: 06
                        Quote: tesser
                        Somehow lousy agreed, no?

                        It is unlikely that we will find out what was agreed there.
                        Quote: tesser
                        And Hess spoke in Nuremberg, so there would be a desire.

                        He only did there that sclerosis depicted on his head.
                      6. -4
                        31 October 2019 16: 21
                        Yes, as if judging by the fate of Hess, there is little doubt. He would drive into the liberated Aachen on the Sherman’s armor as, I don’t know, dear Comrade Rakosi to Hungary - there would be a different conversation.
                    2. 0
                      1 November 2019 00: 24
                      In fact, the ruling dynasty has a purely German origin, from the same Lower Saxony (Hanover)
              6. +6
                31 October 2019 10: 59
                The Germans had behind them two years of war and the whole of occupied Europe. And this is an experience. The Red Army had a similar experience only in 43, by the end of the year.
              7. +3
                31 October 2019 12: 10
                An important point, arguing about the quantity, do not forget that the vast majority of weapons were outdated. And the lack of radio in the troops was felt immediately.
                1. -2
                  31 October 2019 16: 43
                  Quote: mentle
                  the vast majority of weapons were outdated

                  What kind of weapon was obsolete? In any country in the world there is a new and old weapon — in India, for example, they fly on MiG-21, in Syria on Su-24, t-72 in the army the main tank.
                  As for Germany, its T-3 tanks, for example, were not much better than the Soviet BT and T-26. And already captured French and all sorts of Slovak tanks in general. There was also nothing ultra-modern in artillery systems. There was some advantage on aircraft but was expressed in the concentration of superiority on a certain area. By the way, read for example about the rainy day of the Luftwaffe in the Netherlands, for example
                  https://www.proza.ru/2016/05/28/1366
            2. 0
              30 October 2019 20: 40
              And with Japan.
              1. 0
                31 October 2019 06: 08
                Quote: nesoglasen
                Japan

                She would have joined later, like Turkey.
            3. -4
              31 October 2019 08: 45
              Quote: Dart2027
              the likelihood that you will have to fight not only with Germany, but also with England and the United States.

              In 41?
              1. +3
                31 October 2019 09: 13
                By the way, find out which sanctions were imposed on the USSR in the 1941 United States, just go nuts, what a friendly country it was.
                1. -6
                  31 October 2019 09: 29
                  Quote: EvilLion
                  By the way, find out which in 1941 the United States imposed sanctions on the USSR

                  In the 39th. Naturally, the allies of Britain impose sanctions on the allies of Germany, what bothers you? France and Britain thought about bombing, but there were more urgent matters.
                  Quote: EvilLion
                  The main thing is not who is right, but to participate, inviting the winning side,

                  Participate on the side of Germany against Britain?
              2. +1
                31 October 2019 11: 02
                Quote: tesser
                In 41

                What bothers you so much? England, France and the United States were quite friendly with Hitler most of his career as a politician - the Strange War and the Munich Agreement are known to all. And when Hitler decided to strike at France it was the flight of the British, who threw their allies greatly helped him.
                1. -4
                  31 October 2019 12: 44
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  Strange war and Munich conspiracy are known to all

                  And what confuses you here? Both that, and another - about "history has given us little time", "transition to a war footing", etc., this is not only a Soviet song. As for the Sudetenland, the Sudetenland had an almost entirely German, irredentist-minded population. Another conversation is that Mr. Hitler understood this treaty broadly (to the whole of Czechoslovakia).
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  it was the flight of the British, who threw their allies greatly helped him.

                  Nobody's perfect, you know.
                  1. +1
                    31 October 2019 15: 17
                    Quote: tesser
                    And then, and another - about "history has given us little time" "transition to a military track", etc., this is not only a Soviet song

                    Only then the Germans were far from as strong as in 1941.
                    Quote: tesser
                    Nobody's perfect, you know.

                    That is, the fact of collusion is obvious.
                    1. -3
                      31 October 2019 15: 40
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      Only then the Germans were far from as strong as in 1941.

                      Strong enough, as it turned out.
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      That is, the fact of collusion is obvious.

                      Is the British conspiring with the Germans to surrender France and remain alone with the Germans? It is obvious to you, but not to me.
                      1. +4
                        31 October 2019 16: 56
                        Quote: tesser
                        as it turned out

                        Truth? But I remember that after the defeat in WWI, Germany had a purely nominal army and did not have heavy weapons. But Hitler should appear and ...
                      2. -6
                        31 October 2019 17: 11
                        What are you hinting at? On the short-sighted policy of the offices of Baldwin and MacDonald? So I am in the know. As for your pacts, many of them, if not all, were mistakes, but only two were crimes. Because they sold Hitler to third countries. Strange as they say, everyone is talking about them.
                      3. +3
                        31 October 2019 19: 58
                        Quote: tesser
                        On the short-sighted policy of the offices of Baldwin and MacDonald?

                        Well, why short-sighted, it almost happened - Hitler still attacked the USSR, only the scenario has changed a bit.
                        Quote: tesser
                        As for your pacts, many of them, if not all, were mistakes, but only two were crimes.

                        Why two? All but the last.
                      4. -3
                        31 October 2019 20: 12
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Well, why short-sighted, it almost turned out

                        That's how MacDonald did not like the USSR - he could not eat. Baldwin out of a desire to lime the USSR allowed Germany to build submarines for some reason. To Paulus swim in Stalingrad.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        All but the last.

                        Was this an agreement between Lithuania and Germany? Wow.
                        In addition, you know that if Mr. Ribentrop and Comrade Stalin had agreed only on non-aggression, there would have been no questions.
                      5. +2
                        1 November 2019 06: 03
                        Quote: tesser
                        That's how MacDonald did not like the USSR - he could not eat.

                        Yes, a piece in the throat did not climb, like the rest.
                        Quote: tesser
                        Was this an agreement between Lithuania and Germany?

                        And they did not know who Hitler was? Wow.
                        Quote: tesser
                        what if Mr. Ribentrop and Comrade Stalin agreed only on non-aggression

                        And they agreed on him. Poland was an enemy of the USSR and its well-being was, to put it mildly, uninteresting, but the joint actions of the Poles and Germans looked like a serious threat.
                      6. -3
                        1 November 2019 06: 42
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        a piece in the throat did not climb, like the rest.

                        I will disappoint you. They ate as if into themselves, even Mr. Churchill.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        And they did not know who Hitler was?

                        When, in the 39th? In the 39th, even Comrade Ehrenburg did not know this.
                        I think I already wrote this. Hitler in the sense of HITLER !!!!!!! 111 ONE-this is a post-war phenomenon. Even in 45, "the fascists are such German rightists, to the right of the republicans" (c).
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        And they agreed on him.

                        Yes, it coincided by chance. You already decide, Pact MR is the greatest achievement of Soviet diplomacy (s) or there were no protocols (s). And then there is a feeling of senility.
                      7. +2
                        1 November 2019 09: 00
                        Quote: tesser
                        They ate as if into themselves, even Mr. Churchill.

                        Such a concept as figurative expression is probably not familiar to you.
                        Quote: tesser
                        In the 39th, even Comrade Ehrenburg did not know this.

                        Oh really? I once thought that there were already concentration camps.
                        Quote: tesser
                        You already decide, Pact MR - the greatest achievement of Soviet diplomacy (s) or there were no protocols (s)

                        And the meaning of some protocols that do not even have a nominal legal force? The greatest achievement was the fact that, thanks to the ambition of the Poles, they were able to quarrel with the Germans, not allowing a united front against the USSR.
                      8. -5
                        1 November 2019 09: 34
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        once thought that there were already concentration camps.

                        Naturally there were. And where did you get the idea that it should have bothered someone? It seems to you now that the word "concentration" sounds much worse than "corrective labor", in 39 no one saw such a problem.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        The greatest achievement was the fact that, thanks to the ambition of the Poles, they were able to quarrel with the Germans, not allowing a united front against the USSR.

                        Yes Yes. The Poles (both Romanians and Balts) directly dreamed of launching the Wehrmacht. We did not allow them; we made a common border with the German from sea to sea. Tricky plan, multi-way.
                      9. +1
                        1 November 2019 11: 46
                        Quote: tesser
                        There are three dates. 07.07.1937/01.09.1939/11.12.1941, the war in Asia. XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX, the war in Europe. XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX, the unification of the European and Asian war, world war.
                        For all but Soviet propagandists, the USSR is a participant in the war in Europe from 17.09.1939/XNUMX/XNUMX.
                        There is an official start date for WWII - 01.09.1939/XNUMX/XNUMX.
                        Quote: tesser
                        You are confusing America and the American state. The American state apparatus is not a "main European", but a social security service for losers and freaks. They are not at all made and are making America great.

                        That is, the United States has become great in spite of its state apparatus? Hmm ... And how is this possible?
                        Quote: tesser
                        Naturally there were. And where did you get the idea that it should have bothered someone? It seems to you now that the word "concentration" sounds much worse than "corrective labor", in 39 no one saw such a problem.
                        Well then, why did Hitler have to bother Stalin?
                        Quote: tesser
                        Yes Yes. The Poles (both Romanians and Balts) directly dreamed of launching the Wehrmacht. We did not allow them; we made a common border with the German from sea to sea. Tricky plan, multi-way.
                        That is, the fact that under Pilsudski, the Reich and Poland had an alliance and close friendship is news for you? But Romanians with the Balts then, and now, no one asked.
                      10. -3
                        1 November 2019 18: 21
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        There is an official start date for WWII

                        I gave you three dates for the start of conflicts that ended on 02.09.1945/XNUMX/XNUMX. Which of them and who is official - it makes no difference to me.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        became great in spite of their state apparatus? Hmm ... And how is this possible?

                        What's so complicated? The United States became great when it got too hot. But muscle was pumped not by administrations, but by completely different people (administrations, in particular the FDR, were more in the way). This happens, there is a lot of muscle mass, and the brain is only bone.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Well then, why did Hitler have to bother Stalin?

                        You see. To Stalin there would have been no questions at all about 39-41, if not for the ensuing events. Latvia, for its part, was hardly able to fight back in any case, even from the Red Army, even from the Wehrmacht.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        That is, the fact that under Pilsudski, the Reich and Poland had an alliance and close friendship is news for you?

                        This is probably for you the news that in the 39th Pilsudski 4 years as he died. However, in the 38th, Polish-German friendship also existed, but they were only friends in the neighboring house, and not in their own.
                      11. +2
                        1 November 2019 19: 38
                        Quote: tesser
                        Which of them and who is official - it makes no difference to me.
                        But who are you to decide which date refers to which war? I gave you the official date.
                        Quote: tesser
                        But muscle was pumped not by administrations, but by completely different people (administrations, in particular the FDR, were more in the way).
                        Well, and how is it possible for the state to develop in spite of itself?
                        Quote: tesser
                        To Stalin there would have been no questions at all about 39-41, if not for the subsequent events
                        That is, there are questions to him, but not to the others? Who was the first to conclude an agreement with him? England and France? All questions to them.
                        Quote: tesser
                        This is probably for you the news that in the 39th Pilsudski 4 years as he died.
                        What served the collapse of the Polish-German friendship, to the good fortune of the USSR.
                      12. -3
                        2 November 2019 08: 14
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        in general, who is it to decide which date refers to which war? I gave you the official date.

                        You can discuss "official dates" with Mr. Medinsky, a great historian. For you, as well as for him, it is not a problem that fighting in China since the summer of 37, say, Claire Shannolt, the "flying tiger", fought in the Japanese-Chinese war in the morning of September XNUMX, and in the evening - already in World War II, because somewhere on the opposite side of the globe, Germany attacked Poland.
                        You are not at all aware of this Shannolt and all this Chinese massacre, at your place near Halkin Gol Japanese on the USSR attacked.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        how is it possible for the state to develop in spite of itself?

                        If you learn to distinguish between the state in the meaning of "country" and the state in the meaning of "state apparatus", this will no longer be a problem for you.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Who was the first to conclude an agreement with him? England and France? All questions to them.

                        That supporters weighted position и constructive dialogue expressing deep concernserved strong protest when it was high time for water to be brought to the Second World War, no one (from serious authors) in the West denies.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        the collapse of the Polish-German friendship, to the good fortune of the USSR.

                        That yes, lucky so lucky.
                      13. +1
                        2 November 2019 13: 14
                        Quote: tesser
                        You can discuss "official dates" with Mr. Medinsky, a great historian. For you, as well as for him, it is not a problem that
                        It is not a problem for me to know that in the world almost always someone is fighting, and that was at that time. There is an official, internationally recognized start date for the war, and the rest is your desire.
                        Quote: tesser
                        If you learn to distinguish between the state in the meaning of "country" and the state in the meaning of "state apparatus"
                        It’s very touching, but the fact that all the achievements in politics, economics and military affairs provides just the state apparatus is well known to me.
                        Quote: tesser
                        The fact that the proponents of a balanced position and constructive dialogue, expressing deep concern, vigorously protesting when it was high time to get wet was brought to the Second World War by no one (from serious authors) in the West.
                        Well, and what claims to Stalin? As I said all the question there.
                      14. +1
                        1 November 2019 13: 02
                        No need to rave. K1939 Comrade Ehrenburg passed Spain. Greetings from WIKI:
                        In 1922 he published a philosophical and satirical novel, “The Extraordinary Adventures of Julio Jurenito and His Pupils,” which gives an interesting mosaic picture of the life of Europe and Russia during the First World War and Revolution, but most importantly, a set of amazing prophecies is given. Leonid Zhukhovitsky wrote about this [18]:

                        “...I am still shocked by the completely fulfilled prophecies from Julio Jurenito. Did you guess by chance? But was it possible to accidentally guess both German fascism, and its Italian variety, and even the atomic bomb used by the Americans against the Japanese. Probably, in the young Ehrenburg there was nothing from Nostradamus, Vanga or Messing. There was another - a powerful mind and quick reaction, which made it possible to capture the main features of entire peoples and foresee their development in the future. In past centuries, for such a gift, they burned at the stake

                        I have not read it, but I support it. feel
                      15. -3
                        1 November 2019 17: 43
                        Quote: Mavrikiy
                        Ehrenburg passed Spain.

                        So what? Did he make any distinction between the fascist dog Hitler and the fascist dog Mannerheim? (by the way, the first time Mannerheim became a fascist dog, Hitler was temporarily discharged from dogs).
            4. -1
              31 October 2019 11: 22
              Quote: Dart2027
              In addition, there was a chance that you would have to fight not only with Germany, but also with England and the United States.

              1. England already fought against Hitler. Those. abruptly cease and ... become his ally ?,
              And what, by the way, prevented her from doing this in 1939 when the USSR crossed the border of Poland and seized it, as it were, the territory? Together with Hitler, Poland, France on absolutely legal grounds, against the "aggressor"? request Ng forgave everyone and even ... supported. for they understood that this was against Hitler.
              2. Hitler to 41 g-universally recognized absolute evil, aggressor and occupier of Europe. Everyone who opposed him was even indirectly supported. The liberation of Poland from the occupier is the same for which England fought.
              3.Why "attack"? And it is impossible to defend, having carried out MOBILIZATION and combat readiness against a LONG time mobilized, fighting, hostile army standing on our border?
              1. +1
                31 October 2019 15: 29
                Quote: Olgovich
                England ALREADY fought against Hitler. Those. abruptly cease and ... become his ally?

                But didn’t she cease to be an ally of the USSR immediately after the change in the political situation? This was rubbed into us by all ideological dregs in schools, and in politics, normal politics, nobody cares about ideology.
                Quote: Olgovich
                when the USSR crossed the border of Poland and seized it, as it were, the territory? Together with Hitler, Poland, France on absolutely legal grounds, against the "aggressor"

                And why didn’t she attack Hitler, who was the aggressor who attacked Poland?
                Quote: Olgovich
                Why "attack"? And to defend yourself by carrying out MOBILIZATION

                That's how it is, but the announcement of mobilization meant the immediate start of the war. Well, what was the fighting efficiency of the army, Stalin knew, it is enough to remember how "easily" the Finns were defeated, so he pulled as much as he could.
                1. -3
                  31 October 2019 15: 47
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  Didn’t she cease to be an ally of the USSR immediately after the change in the political situation?

                  Of course I stopped. But Hitler, nevertheless, has already been removed from the board.
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  why didn’t she attack Hitler,

                  They expressed deep concern. You seem to be judging from the point of view of the Soviet post-war man who knows that this is Hitler, he will eat everyone. In the 39th it bothered much less, the poleurops of these Hitlers, right-wing populists. Is there any sort of showdown among these Western Slavs who are interested in general?
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  So that's it, that's just a mobilization announcement

                  He had mobilized a long time ago. Back in the 39th 40th years.
                  1. +1
                    31 October 2019 16: 58
                    Quote: tesser
                    But Hitler, nevertheless, has already been removed from the board.

                    And under other circumstances, they would have removed Stalin.
                    We do not have eternal allies and we do not have constant enemies; our interests are eternal and permanent. Our duty is to protect these interests.
                    http://www.bibliotekar.ru/encSlov/19/1.htm
                    Quote: tesser
                    He had mobilized a long time ago.

                    I'm talking about Stalin.
                    1. -4
                      31 October 2019 19: 19
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      And under other circumstances, they would have removed Stalin.

                      It's hard to believe, but the USSR at that time was seen as some kind of eastern Poland, a beggar and a wild one, well, or northern China, a poor and wild one. Neither Germany nor Britain took him seriously. Therefore, only Poland and Romania, and not Germany and Britain, could unite against the USSR.
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      We do not have eternal allies and we do not have constant enemies; our interests are eternal and permanent.

                      Empty bragging. Eternal and permanent interests change twice a day.
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      I'm talking about Stalin.

                      I'm talking about him. Take an interest in what happened to the Red Army in 39-41. With the number and staff.
                      1. +2
                        31 October 2019 19: 51
                        Quote: tesser
                        It's hard to believe, but the USSR at that time was seen as some kind of eastern Poland, a beggar and a wild one, well, or northern China, a poor and wild one.

                        Do not consider partners stupid and naive. The USSR was not a superpower, but not China, and they knew it very well.
                        Quote: tesser
                        Take an interest in what happened to the Red Army in 39-41. With the number and staff.

                        Are you talking about these unfortunate purges? Too lazy to look, but at one time they discussed this issue and about 5000 people were arrested.
                      2. -5
                        31 October 2019 20: 14
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Do not consider partners stupid and naive.

                        Unfortunately, that was the case. USSR and comrade Stalin was underestimated too much and too long.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Are you talking about these unfortunate purges?

                        I'm talking about mobilization. That is, about the increase in numbers and the change in the OSH.
                      3. +3
                        1 November 2019 05: 56
                        Quote: tesser
                        USSR and comrade Stalin was underestimated too much and too long.

                        Industrialization in the USSR was carried out with the help of Western experts and purchasing everything that was possible abroad. They were aware of the military-industrial potential of the USSR at that time.
                        Quote: tesser
                        I'm talking about mobilization.

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        That's how it is, but the announcement of mobilization meant the immediate start of the war. Well, what was the fighting efficiency of the army, Stalin knew, it is enough to remember how "easily" the Finns were defeated, so he pulled as much as he could.
                        Germany was already at its peak, but the USSR was profitable to delay the start of the war as far as possible.
                      4. -4
                        1 November 2019 06: 49
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        They were aware of the military-industrial potential of the USSR at that time.

                        You see. I, unlike you, was interested in the activities of the Roosevelt administration. They were not in the know American military-industrial potential. There is no intelligence, the General Staff is virtually nonexistent, the State Department has some drug addicts.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Germany was already at its peak, but the USSR was profitable to delay the start of the war as far as possible.

                        Again an alternative story. The USSR has been participating in the engine since the 36th year. Front-line operations are from the 39th. If the Japanese-Chinese conflict is considered part of WWII, then the USSR enters WWII earlier than Germany. If you suddenly do not know.
                        He pulled the war away from the heart.
                      5. +1
                        1 November 2019 09: 04
                        Quote: tesser
                        They were not aware of the American military-industrial potential. There is no intelligence, the General Staff is virtually nonexistent, the State Department has some drug addicts.

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Do not consider partners stupid and naive.

                        If they were so stupid, but would not become a superpower.
                        Quote: tesser
                        The USSR has been participating in the engine since the 36th year. Front-line operations are from the 39th. If the Japanese-Chinese conflict is considered part of WWII, then the USSR enters WWII earlier than Germany. If you suddenly do not know.
                        He pulled the war away from the heart.

                        WWII began on September 1, 1939.
                        The war with Finland was not part of it, as well as the battles with Japan, but the fact that according to their results the Japanese did not decide to attack the USSR simultaneously with the Germans is an achievement.
                      6. -4
                        1 November 2019 11: 08
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        WWII began on September 1, 1939

                        There are three dates. 07.07.1937/01.09.1939/11.12.1941, the war in Asia. XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX, the war in Europe. XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX, the unification of the European and Asian war, world war.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        The war with Finland was not part of it

                        For all but Soviet propagandists, the USSR is a participant in the war in Europe from 17.09.1939/XNUMX/XNUMX.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        If they were so stupid, but would not become a superpower.

                        You are confusing America and the American state. The American state apparatus is not a "main European", but a social security service for losers and freaks. They are not at all made and are making America great.

                        The consequence of this state of affairs was Eisenhower, who in the 39th still carries a portfolio for MacArthur in some Asian Zadryuchinsky, is awaiting a colonel's retirement, and in the 43rd Roosevelt declares that the commander-in-chief on TVD defines the strategy on the Mediterranean theater, and Churchill flies persuade of the same Eisenhower attack Italy. He cannot order him, but Roosevelt and Marshall refuse to do this. 3 years ago Aiku Patton offered a regiment as a friend. Friendship, since the rank of Hayk at that time was a lieutenant colonel, and he was commanded to command a battalion.

                        Such an attitude to politics led to fairly predictable consequences, from Stetsin in the Baltic to Trieste on the Adriatic. And now I'm reading about the plot of the Americans, these same Americans, who had been raising Hitler’s fighting hamster for ten years, just to spoil the Russian people.
                      7. +3
                        1 November 2019 12: 15
                        Quote: tesser
                        He cannot order him, but Roosevelt and Marshall refuse to do this. 3 years ago Aiku Patton offered a regiment as a friend. Friendship, since the rank of Hayk at that time was a lieutenant colonel, and he was commanded to command a battalion.

                        This verbiage has nothing to do with Eisenhower’s assessment, because during the war there were ups and downs among many commanders, not to mention the fact that in 1940 our most outstanding commander Marshal Rokossovsky was in prison, and the USSR had already managed to recapture part of its territories . So you don’t need to prove something to people who know military history in such a cheap way - your hints of Hayk are just homegrown fantasies, and nothing more.
                      8. -2
                        1 November 2019 18: 12
                        Quote: ccsr
                        This verbiage has nothing to do with Eisenhower’s assessment,

                        I seem to have already explained to you on this topic. Be careful with terms like "verbiage", "home-grown fantasies", etc. You can check Eisenhower's biography by Ambrose, Soldier and President. The episode with Italy is briefly in the same place, but you can take Churchill as well.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Marshal Rokossovsky was in prison

                        1. Before prison, Rokossovsky for 6 years commanded a division, a year corps. The last thing Eisenhower commanded was the 1st Battalion of the 15th Regiment of the 3rd Infantry Division. He was not removed to this post, as Manstein in his time, on the contrary, it was only at the end of the 40th year that he was given command, after many years of adjutant positions in the colonies. This is March 41st. Next - 1,5 years of headquarters and the post of commander in chief in Europe. Even by the standards of Comrade Epishev, he sang extremely.
                        2. Neither Rokossovsky, nor Zhukov, nor anyone else in the Red Army accepted political decisions determining the fate of states. Aiki was forced to take them. He knew how, given his experience. He spent half of interbellum in Panama and the Philippines, as far as he could distinguish Slovakia from Slovenia, and Lublin from Ljubljana - more or less clearly. Despite the fact that he was a brilliant battalion commander, the divisional commander would most likely also have been good. But life and J. Marshall decided differently.

                        What is there that you wrote about the territories conquered by the USSR is not clear.
                      9. +2
                        2 November 2019 10: 05
                        Quote: tesser
                        Eisenhower’s biography can be clarified by Ambrose, Soldier and President.

                        Do you recommend studying the biography of Brezhnev on the "Small Land", for which he received the "Order of Victory"? Oh well...
                        Quote: tesser
                        Before prison, Rokossovsky for 6 years commanded a division, a year corps.

                        I cited this fact simply in order to understand how a military career can change in an instant, by coincidence, even in peacetime, not to mention the military.
                        Quote: tesser
                        only at the end of the 40th year they were given command, after many years of adjutant positions in the colonies.

                        Yes, it’s all muddy - it’s enough to study the appointment of Yazov, who slipped into the ministers clearly not for his military past during the war years.
                        Quote: tesser
                        What is there that you wrote about the territories conquered by the USSR is not clear.

                        It is not clear about Western Ukraine and Belarus that were recaptured in 1939, when Rokossovsky was in prison?
                      10. -2
                        2 November 2019 13: 40
                        Quote: ccsr
                        you recommend studying the biography of Brezhnev on "Malaya Zemlya"

                        Have you decided to make a fancy? I'm not talking about Brezhnev with you. If you have an alternative Eisenhower lens - lay out, do not be shy.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        military career can change in an instant by coincidence, even in peacetime

                        Demagogy. When "under the influence of circumstances" the marshals are put up against the wall, this is one thing, when the lieutenant colonel (Hayk's permanent rank in the 43rd year, temporary - full general (colonel general) Bonaparte appoint - this is different.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        to study the appointment of Yazov, who slipped into ministers

                        What else Yazov? Who was there at Gorbachev who interested in the Second World War?
                        And here is how Comrade Stalin replaced Vasilyevsky with political adviser Bulganin, Marshal, God forgive me, Victory, - it was witty, he was great.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Western Ukraine and Belarus that were recaptured in 1939 when Rokossovsky was in prison?

                        What is incomprehensible to you? Like Comrade In the 39th, did Stalin manage without Rokossovsky? Are you kidding me?
                      11. +2
                        2 November 2019 16: 58
                        Quote: tesser
                        Have you decided to make a fancy? I'm not talking about Brezhnev with you.

                        And there was no thought - I think you just should not earn cheap credibility with various zealots that have nothing to do with the matter, as was the case with the biography of the former American president.
                        Quote: tesser
                        And here is how Comrade Stalin

                        But it is better not to speak about Comrade Stalin - it was he who showed many that their fate depends on his opinion on the business qualities of these leaders.
                        Quote: tesser
                        Like Comrade In the 39th, did Stalin manage without Rokossovsky? Are you kidding me?

                        Over your nonsense - yes.
                2. -1
                  1 November 2019 07: 39
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  But didn’t she cease to be an ally of the USSR immediately after the change in the political situation?

                  What has changed for England in 1941? Germany ceased to be an aggressor, which had to be stopped by the whole world?
                  Let me remind you that Germany was ACKNOWLEDGED by the aggressor against Poland, and England and Fr. and the USSR -NO!
                  and a Soviet strike on the aggressor-England would be on the .... side of the aggressor ?!
                  Where is written, but not invented?
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  And why didn’t she attack Hitler, who was the aggressor who attacked Poland?

                  Attack, forgot? September 3, 1939 And after the 17th of September, in the USSR.
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  And so she is, only the announcement of mobilization meant immediate the beginning of the war. Well, what was the fighting efficiency of the army, Stalin knew, it is enough to remember how "easily" the Finns were defeated, so he pulled as much as he could.

                  This is nonsense: Hitler spat on occasions, he started when he was PREPARED, neither earlier nor later
                  .
                  And before June 22, he simply could not attack (declare Stalin a mob or not): he was busy in the Balkans.
              2. 0
                31 October 2019 16: 51
                Quote: Olgovich
                But it is impossible to defend oneself by conducting MOBILIZATION and combat readiness against the FORMERLY mobilized, fighting, standing on our border hostile army?

                Probably not. Or do you think Stalin is absolutely an idiot? So there were some reasons. Perhaps even sabotage. Not for nothing one historian wrote: "He didn't shoot them enough ..." There were many "civilian heroes" in the leadership of the troops, and since then military thought has stepped far ahead
            5. 0
              31 October 2019 13: 02
              Quote: Dart2027
              that we’ll have to fight not only with Germany, but also with England and the USA.

              Or maybe with the Martians? England waged a war with Germany, and then with a fright even with the USSR would start a war? Why did the USA unleash a war with the USSR?
              1. +1
                31 October 2019 15: 30
                Quote: Sergey1987
                and here with a fright also with the USSR would start a war? Why did the USA unleash a war with the USSR?

                And why did they help Hitler build muscle and approach the borders of the USSR?
                1. -2
                  31 October 2019 15: 48
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  approach the borders of the USSR?

                  Sorry? The borders of the USSR, as it were, approached him, no?
                  1. +1
                    31 October 2019 16: 54
                    Quote: tesser
                    The borders of the USSR, as it were, approached him, no?

                    That is, it was not Hitler who invaded Poland and defeated it in a couple of weeks? If the USSR did not occupy those territories, then they would fall under the control of the Germans.
                    1. -1
                      31 October 2019 17: 05
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      That is, it was not Hitler who invaded Poland and defeated it in a couple of weeks?

                      And about this, by chance, there were no agreements? Which, incidentally, concerned 6 states bordering the USSR, and not just Poland.
                      1. 0
                        31 October 2019 17: 52
                        Quote: tesser
                        And about this, by chance, there were no agreements? Which, incidentally, concerned 6 states bordering the USSR, and not just Poland.

                        It looks like this dart is as familiar with the story as I with ballet.)))))
                      2. 0
                        31 October 2019 20: 02
                        Quote: Sergey1987
                        Dart is as familiar with history as I with ballet

                        Judging by your comments, you are Mikhail Nikolaevich Baryshnikov.
                      3. -1
                        1 November 2019 14: 38
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Judging by your comments, you are Mikhail Nikolaevich Baryshnikov.

                        )))))) It is unlikely that I would have the nickname Sergey1987 if I were him. For the first time I hear about him.
                      4. +1
                        1 November 2019 16: 51
                        Quote: Sergey1987
                        For the first time I hear about him

                        Mikhail Nikolaevich Baryshnikov - ballet dancer, choreographer, who remained in Canada in 1974. Honored Artist of the RSFSR, nominated for Oscars and Golden Globes.
                      5. +1
                        31 October 2019 20: 02
                        Quote: tesser
                        And about this, by chance, there were no agreements?

                        That is, Stalin was an ally of Poland and the guarantor of its security? Actually, Poland was then like today's Ukraine, only more dangerous, and its allies were England and France, and not the USSR at all.
                      6. -3
                        31 October 2019 20: 43
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Poland was then like today's Ukraine, only more dangerous, and its allies were England and France, and not the USSR at all.

                        Well, that is, it would be possible to agree with pan Kachinsky (he, sorry, has no mustache) and divide Ukraine along the Dnieper, this is for you, this is for us. Normal topic, in the studio of V.R. Solovyov, she seems to have come in completely.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        It’s not really partisans.

                        The army without an economy, on other people's grub - more than enough. And by the spring of the 45th there were 1,5 million people under arms.
                      7. +2
                        1 November 2019 06: 04
                        Quote: tesser
                        Well, that is, it would be possible to agree with pan Kaczynski

                        As I understand it, there are no questions regarding the above facts?
                      8. -4
                        1 November 2019 06: 51
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        As I understand it, there are no questions regarding the above facts?

                        Which? What Poland was an adversary about which it is possible and necessary to agree with Germany? Of course there are no questions.
                      9. +1
                        1 November 2019 09: 04
                        Quote: tesser
                        Which?

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        her allies were England and France

                        They passed it.
                      10. -5
                        1 November 2019 09: 25
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        They passed it.

                        Not without it. They surrendered it to the Reich and the USSR.
                2. 0
                  31 October 2019 17: 51
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  And why did they help Hitler build muscle and approach the borders of the USSR?

                  Until the 39th year, they collaborated with Germany, as did the USSR. You at least read the story before you carry nonsense. Read where the German tank crews and pilots studied.
            6. -3
              31 October 2019 22: 33
              Quote: Dart2027
              Because if Stalin was the first to attack, the defeat would be even worse.

              First of all, what does "attack first" have to do with it ?! Why was the more powerful Red Army defeated so quickly and massively and no one was ready? Who is responsible for this? For treaties with Hitler?

              Quote: Dart2027
              In 1941, the German army was better - alas, these are the facts.

              What is better ??

              Quote: Dart2027
              In addition, there was a chance that you would have to fight not only with Germany, but also with England and the United States.

              By that time, they had already declared war on Hitler and fought with him, what is the logic?
              1. +2
                1 November 2019 06: 09
                Quote: KrokodilGena
                Why was the more powerful Red Army so quickly and massively defeated and no one was ready? Who is responsible for this?

                Marshals and generals. They are responsible for the combat readiness of the army.
                Quote: KrokodilGena
                Which is better?

                Level of combat readiness.
                Quote: KrokodilGena
                By that time, they had already declared war on Hitler and fought with him.

                The logic is that "if a crocodile ate your enemy, it does not mean that he has become your friend." Making peace and an alliance against a third party is quite possible in politics.
          2. +21
            30 October 2019 17: 43
            Quote: Chit
            On what basis did he consider only his opinion to be the only true one? Why the fifth grader in June 41 could ask himself: what will happen if Hitler still attacks first?

            Try to study history at your leisure. Stalin was absolutely sure that Hitler would attack.
            Quote: Chit
            But the great strategist did not even allow such a thought. He believed that he had outwitted everything. Although the position was obliged to provide for all war scenarios, including the most negative.
            And what is the result?
            Unheard of rout of the entire personnel spacecraft in June 1941

            In short, this was the case. Stalin believed that Hitler would attack before 1942 and understood that the state of the Red Army was more than far from ideal. He hoped to win this year, but nonetheless continued to monitor the situation with the German troops. Alas, intelligence overslept the mass transfer of troops from France to the Soviet-German border, and after that the defeat in the border battle was predetermined.
            That is, there have been mistakes on the ground, mistakes of our scouts, and it’s rather difficult to understand why you put them on Stalin. Of course, he, as the leader of the country, is responsible for everything, but ... Still, there is no direct fault.
            1. -20
              30 October 2019 18: 31
              I have been studying history (including the history of the Second World War) for more than 20 years. He started back in Soviet patterns and thoughts of Comrade Zhukov. And I dare to assure you, I understand the subject.
              I am not interested in what Stalin was counting on and what Stalin was counting on. I am interested in the fact of the catastrophic defeat of the Red Army in June.
              I am not interested in what Comrade Stalin was thinking of doing in 1942. I ask for an answer why he overslept Hitler’s attack in 1941.
              And do not blame everything on intelligence. Intelligence reports were different and covered events from different angles.
              Golikov, Dronov, Tupikov, Merkulov had alternative points of view on the beginning of the war. But Comrade Stalin felt that his opinion was the only correct one.
              I’m not talking about what Stalin planned to do in Europe, it’s useless to argue about this.
              I ask a specific question: if you have deployed a large accumulation of manpower and equipment in the border areas (for what purposes - now is not about that), why not bother with its preservation and safety? Why not allow the thought, as long as the strategist and commander, that the enemy can strike first? Will strike a preemptive strike? Will cut both strategic ledges to the root?
              Why did Stalin not allow this simple, elementary thought? Understandable for any mortal?
              1. -2
                30 October 2019 18: 43
                Quote: Chit
                I am interested in the fact of the catastrophic defeat of the Red Army in June.

                This is well known.
                All participants - Britain, France, Germany, Japan, the USA - understood what was going on and prepared. In the name of preparation, they allowed themselves rather nasty things, such as Munich, the Pact, the Strange War, Land Liz, etc. However, it turned out that Germany and Japan were preparing as they should (although they made mistakes that decided the fate of these regimes), and the rest - prepared very badly. In the case of Comrade Stalin, his cadre army, armed with the world's best tanks, rifle, aircraft, artillery, etc. - turned out to be one big fraud. I had to drag out the war by the militia with the corresponding loss account. Moreover, in the main thing - the war will not be a blitzkrieg, but a war of attrition - Comrade Stalin was right, therefore, in the end, the USSR pulled out the war, unlike the Germans, who were much better prepared for the war proper.
                1. -19
                  30 October 2019 20: 25
                  Reserves began to plug holes just after the personnel spacecraft was destroyed due to Stalin's mistakes.
                  About fraud - see statistics. Compare the number of German and Soviet aircraft and tanks on June 22, 1941.
                  What was Stalin right about? The fact that the war will be on its territory? Yes, you at least read the Field Charter of 1936! Perhaps you will understand what Stalin had in mind under the war a little blood and on foreign territory.
                  For Stalin, Hitler's attack was a complete surprise. He didn’t even allow such a thought. This is what I focus on, and this is what I blame Stalin.
                  And you tell me about some kind of war of attrition ...
                  1. +1
                    30 October 2019 20: 55
                    Quote: Chit
                    Compare the number of German and Soviet aircraft and tanks on June 22, 1941.

                    According to statistics or combat readiness?
                    Quote: Chit
                    Yes, you at least read the Field Charter of 1936! Perhaps you will understand what Stalin had in mind under the war a little blood and on foreign territory.

                    Comrade Stalin did not mean the war with little bloodshed and on foreign territory from the moment the coalition of Poland and Romania ceased to be potential adversaries. This is his only advantage over Herr Hitler, who was otherwise much better prepared.
                    Quote: Chit
                    For Stalin, Hitler's attack was a complete surprise. He didn’t even allow such a thought.

                    Yes Yes. Rezun-Suvorov has already written a collected work on this subject. Mostly lies, but the division numbers are correct.
                    Quote: Chit
                    And you tell me about some kind of war of attrition ...

                    Not about some, but exactly about the Second World War, which was in reality.
                2. +5
                  30 October 2019 21: 54
                  What is the abomination of Lend-Lisa ???
                  1. -7
                    30 October 2019 22: 01
                    Quote: Perdit monocle capra
                    What is the abomination of Lend-Lisa ???

                    The fact is that the state, declaring neutrality, at its own expense supplies arms (and vacationers with the preservation of the rank) to one of the belligerents. There is some insincerity here. Regarding, in particular, the voter, who for some reason half a year before this undertaking had forgotten to tell about her.
                    1. +3
                      30 October 2019 22: 12
                      Was the lend-lease law adopted secretly from the voter? Did the voter somehow express his disagreement with the law, except for the next re-election of the "deceiver" a couple of years later?)
                      1. -5
                        30 October 2019 22: 30
                        Quote: Town Hall
                        The voter somehow expressed his disagreement with the law,

                        The voter in the 40th year voted for Mr. Roosevelt and our boys will not go to the European war, it seems.
                        Quote: Town Hall
                        except for the next re-election of the "cheater" a couple of years later?)

                        In the 44th? At that time, the situation changed slightly.
                        By the way, President Roosevelt was already sent to America for her sins, and Roosevelt's sample of the 4th term is generally a direct resident of hell. It is hard to imagine who could be worse than him.

                        This is in addition to the fact of the 4th term in America.
                      2. -1
                        30 October 2019 22: 37
                        Quote: tesser
                        At that time, the situation changed slightly

                        And at 41 did not change compared to the 40th?
                        Quote: tesser
                        It is hard to imagine who could be worse than him.
                        I already heard that. Worse than Roosevelt's president was only Eisenhower commander)
                        Quote: tesser
                        This is in addition to the fact of the 4th term

                        4th term is not "more surprising" than 3rd
                      3. -5
                        30 October 2019 22: 55
                        Quote: Town Hall
                        And in 41 did not change compared to the 40th

                        Between November and March? No. Churchill received a letter on the topic ran out of money, such a surprise.
                        Quote: Town Hall
                        I already heard that. Worse than Roosevelt's president was only Eisenhower commander)

                        Yes, this is not only my opinion))). And Eisenhower is not a military commander at all. This is by the measures of the USA of that time still not bad. Here is Field Marshal MacArthur - yes, ghoul.
                        Quote: Town Hall
                        4th term is not "more surprising" than 3rd

                        Partly yes, it was already clear that something had gone wrong. But in the 44th president, Konstantin Ustinovich Chernenko was elected, which is completely out of place.
                      4. +1
                        30 October 2019 23: 03
                        They do not change horses at the crossing, this is international fun). Bush Jr. in 2004, too, was re-elected by the way.
                        By the way, immediately after Roosevalt, the limitation of 2 terms, which before that was gentlemen's agreement, was made a formal norm of the law ... and that is typical, without any confusion, in the form of the word Consecutive). Errare humanum est, perseverare autem diabolicum
                      5. -4
                        30 October 2019 23: 18
                        Quote: Town Hall
                        By the way, immediately after Roosevalt, there was a 2-term limit, which before that was a gentlemen's agreement,

                        Good but not enough. The XX Congress of the Democratic Party was needed. If all these arts were opened, the madness of McCarthyism would not have been needed. Alas.

                        In the United States, there are still problems with this, with litter from the hut. Oh, how much Mr. was poured on the Clinton, and were elected - and with his hand took off. And conditional Biden, and even Sundance, I’m sure about Trump, will forget about the spy and pest, right on the day the results are announced. Mai country, so to speak, wright o rong. Although in fact mutual responsibility and class solidarity.
                    2. +2
                      30 October 2019 22: 40
                      On December 11, 1941, the USA entered the war with Germany in December 41. After that, what's the abomination ???
                      1. -4
                        30 October 2019 22: 49
                        Quote: Perdit monocle capra
                        On December 11, 1941, the USA entered the war with Germany in December 41. After that, what's the abomination ???

                        After - no questions (until the age of 44). But Lend-Lease is March of the 41st year.
                      2. 0
                        30 October 2019 22: 53
                        Quote: tesser
                        Lend-Lease is March of the 41st year.

                        The foundations of Lend Lease were laid in May 40, when the industry began to be transferred to "paramilitary" rails.
                      3. -3
                        30 October 2019 22: 58
                        Quote: Town Hall
                        The foundations of Lend Lease were laid in May 40, when the industry began to be transferred to "paramilitary" rails.

                        About industry is a separate song, there is much to talk about. But now I'm talking about the nuances of understanding the international legal status.
                      4. +1
                        30 October 2019 23: 06
                        And what international rules did the US land lease law violate?
                      5. -4
                        31 October 2019 00: 31
                        Quote: Town Hall
                        And what international rules did the US land lease law violate?

                        Oh my God. You will not untwist me on the review of international treaties of the interbellum period.

                        If for you.
                        1. Joint occupation by a warring country and a neutral of third countries (like another neutral);
                        2. Supplies to the belligerent side of armaments due to neutral (as opposed to another neutralwho, nevertheless, traded);
                        3. Providing neutral communications from Britain to Britain (neutral patrol) (other neutral hunted for smuggling kachuk, but in completely incomparable volumes)

                        still neutral, then so be it.
                      6. +2
                        31 October 2019 10: 05
                        Sweden throughout the war traded ore with the Reich .. that I do not recall any complaints against them from anyone
                      7. -6
                        31 October 2019 10: 17
                        You really do not see the difference between the supply of ore (bearings, a lot of things) in the framework of foreign trade and the supply of weapons at the expense of your own budget?
                      8. +1
                        31 October 2019 12: 12
                        You are about moral aspects or about the norms of international law (at that time)
                      9. +2
                        31 October 2019 12: 22
                        Quote: tesser
                        You really do not see the difference between the supply of ore (bearings, a lot of things) within foreign trade and arms deliveries from your own budget?

                        You would also know that the components of Lend-Lease - (from the English. Lend - "lend" and lease - "Rent, lease"is a form of TRADE.
                      10. -3
                        31 October 2019 14: 16
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        You would also know that the components of Lend-Lease

                        You read yourself. The LL property was owned by the United States Government. After the war, it was subject to or return to the owner, or foreclosure into the property.
                        The British killed the Germans with weapons that officially belonged to the US government.
                      11. +2
                        1 November 2019 07: 28
                        Quote: tesser
                        You read yourself. The LL property was owned by the United States Government. After the war, it was subject to eitherreturn to the owner, or redemption of property.

                        I repeat, if you do not understand: leasing is long-term lease of property with subsequent redemption right, credit. TRADE FORMS. The USA HAD the right to do so. Like any country.
                        WHAT is not clear, then ?!
                      12. -2
                        1 November 2019 08: 33
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        TRADE FORMS. The USA HAD the right to do so. Like any country.
                        WHAT is not clear, then ?!

                        You see, it is incomprehensible to you. You, apparently, are not aware of the realities of the FDR and are making up for it.

                        LL, as the FDR told Congress, it is as if your cousins ​​(British) had a fire (war), and you had a hose in your closet (a lot of things have been idle since the WWII). You give them a hose, they use it, and when it is not needed they will return it. But they won’t return it - and to hell with it, all the same junk, speaking between us.

                        LL, as he submitted, is the president’s right to dispose of the army and navy’s mobility reserve. The supply of LL did not imply a transfer of rights - everything delivered until the time of the repurchase remained the property of the US government. The fact that LL in the blink of an eye became a means of militarizing industry, so what Roosevelt was a great president, is the ability to execute acts of Congress as he needs, and not as the people who accepted them thought.

                        On the other hand, such a legal design meant the following: an aircraft carrier belonging to the US government, with aircraft belonging to the US government, drops bombs belonging to the US government to German submarines. At the same time, the command of the aircraft carrier is English, but the pilot, quite possibly, is an acting officer (more precisely, Ensign) of the US Navy. If all this happens west of Iceland (the occupied USA) - the flag on the aircraft carrier is American, if to the east - English.

                        And the USA is neutral.
                      13. +1
                        2 November 2019 09: 31
                        Quote: tesser
                        . Delivery under LL did not imply transfer of rights - everything delivered until the time of redemption remained in ownership US government.


                        Of course, this is the essence of this TRADE: lend - “lend” and lease - “rent, rent” YOUR property.

                        It is very common in the world today. Read the lease agreement.
                        Quote: tesser
                        A U.S. government-owned aircraft carrier with U.S.-government aircraft drops U.S.-government bombs on German submarines. In this case, the crew of the English carrier

                        Yes, a combine purchased on a lease (the property of a leasing company), collects crops in the fields that have no relation to this company, sows seeds there that are not related to it, and watered water from a third company.
                        His operator is also not from her.
                      14. -3
                        2 November 2019 13: 43
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Yes, a combine purchased on lease

                        Well, if you don’t see the difference between combine leasing and an aircraft carrier leasing, I won’t be able to explain it to you.
                      15. +2
                        3 November 2019 07: 28
                        Quote: tesser
                        Well, if you don’t see the difference between combine leasing and an aircraft carrier leasing, I won’t be able to explain it to you.

                        If you you do not want to know the essence of trade in leasing, then, of course, make you not in my power.
                      16. -3
                        3 November 2019 08: 46
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        If you do not want to know the essence of leasing

                        How would I tell you about leasing trade. If you find a lessor transferring ships and planes for leasing for free, and deducting them for free in case of loss - be sure to let me know, I really need it.
                      17. +2
                        3 November 2019 10: 14
                        Quote: tesser
                        What can I tell you about trading on lease. How to find a lessor leasing ships and planes for free

                        All for the money.
                        Quote: tesser
                        and free of charge them in case of loss - be sure to let me know he is very needed.

                        and why do you need it?
                        This is the salt ....
                      18. -4
                        3 November 2019 10: 19
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        All for the money.

                        Google, An Act Further to promote the defense of the United States, and for other purposes.
                      19. +2
                        3 November 2019 10: 56
                        Quote: tesser
                        An Act Further to promote the defense of the United States, and for other purposes


                        Yes: Art. 5 (b)
                        The terms and conditions upon which any such foreign government receives any aid authorized under subsection (a) shall be those which the President deems satisfactory, and the benefit to the United States may he payment or repayment in kind or property, or any other direct or indirect benefit which the President deems satisfactory.
                      20. -4
                        3 November 2019 11: 57
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        may he payment or repayment in kind or property, or any other direct or indirect benefit which the President deems satisfactory.

                        Yes, yes, yes, trade. Americans love and know how to trade.

                        Are you going to get to this for a long time?
                      21. +2
                        3 November 2019 12: 08
                        Quote: tesser
                        Yes, yes, yes, trade. Americans love and know how to trade.

                        Are you going to get to this for a long time?

                        perhaps enough is enough: you are unconvincing, and there is no goal to prove anything to you either. hi
                      22. -4
                        3 November 2019 13: 09
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        You are unconvincing

                        Did I convince you of something? Did not know.
                      23. +1
                        31 October 2019 11: 56
                        Quote: tesser
                        Oh my God. You will not untwist me on the review of international treaties of the interbellum period.

                        So you won’t convince that the whole world should be white and fluffy, as you want to draw, but rather yourself with a lot of meanness and hypocrisy in relation to competitors and opponents in the geopolitical arena. So the attempts to run into Stalin and the policies of the USSR, and they can be seen in your texts, look like an inadequate reaction to world history, or purposeful propaganda in demonizing the Bolsheviks and their period of rule in our Fatherland.
                        You are more subtly lead propaganda - the ears are painfully noticeable ...
                      24. -3
                        31 October 2019 14: 10
                        Quote: ccsr
                        the whole world should be white and fluffy as you want to draw

                        I AM? I am very far from the thought of a white and fluffy world. None of the above rial politicians did the above. Like not listed.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        So the attempts to run into Stalin and the politics of the USSR, and they can be seen in your texts

                        I don’t know what you are viewing there. If you put Stalin among the figures where he saw himself - Peter, the Terrible, Genghis Khan, etc. - everything falls into place. And fire and sword, and boyars on stakes, and even the kingdom of heaven with the gulag. The balance of pros and cons in the thread says that the XNUMXth century is not over.
                        Stosh.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        targeted propaganda in demonizing the Bolsheviks

                        I don’t like many people. Why would I hide this?
                      25. +1
                        31 October 2019 18: 48
                        Quote: tesser
                        I don’t like many people. Why would I hide this?

                        I already realized that you can hardly expect objectivity from you in assessing historical events.
                      26. 0
                        31 October 2019 19: 03
                        Quote: ccsr
                        I already realized that you can hardly expect objectivity from you in assessing historical events.

                        What other "objectivity in the assessment"? Did you read that in Soviet textbooks? A person either owns the texture, or not, or lies, or not. And why he drowns at the same time is the tenth thing. Sometimes I come across well-trained Stalinists, from whom you can learn a lot for yourself, not about liberals, but from history. Moreover, if a person does not like my views, he has an incentive to look for errors in my arguments. If he really does it, and does not freebie with cheap slogans - this is extremely valuable.
                      27. +1
                        31 October 2019 19: 53
                        Quote: tesser
                        What other "objectivity in the assessment"? Did you read that in Soviet textbooks?

                        No, it’s from my life that I realized that you don’t have to believe those who are pre-configured to praise or defame the story, because their blindness leads to its distortion.
                        Quote: tesser
                        A person either owns the texture, or not, or cheats, or not.

                        Those. are you hinting that I have to believe Yakovlev or Volkogonov? Why on earth, even if they operate with some documents and do you think they "own the texture", but at the same time pursue their own propaganda goals?
                        Quote: tesser
                        If he really does this, and does not freebies with cheap slogans - this is extremely valuable.

                        You stated that
                        still neutral, then so be it.

                        I have a simple question - Sweden and Switzerland with this approach are neutral countries in that period or not?
                      28. 0
                        31 October 2019 20: 29
                        Quote: ccsr
                        who is preconfigured to praise or defame the story, because their reticence leads to its distortion.

                        It’s just easier, no need to strain and catch where objectivity begins to turn into lies.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Why on earth, even if they operate with some documents and do you think they "own the texture", but at the same time pursue their own propaganda goals?

                        Naturally. Facts are facts, you need to know them, not believe them. I’ll tell you more, as someone has already noted here, Suvorov’s hollow propaganda was at one time very useful, if you treat him without too much enthusiasm. On the other hand, trust but verify. If you are told something with which you do not agree, you should not shout “liberast”, or, I don’t know, “mustachioed ghoul,” but formulate, at least for yourself, but what is wrong?
                        Quote: ccsr
                        I have a simple question - Sweden and Switzerland with this approach are neutral countries in that period or not?

                        The Swedes were neutral in the Anglo-German war and were not neutral in the Soviet-Finnish. The Swiss were neutral. They did not conduct joint combat operations with the warring countries, they did not provide military convoys following their territory with an armed convoy, they did not supply arms to the warring parties free of charge, at the expense of the Swiss budget. They led the merchant woman, hid a bloody little gold, there are no questions, for that we need neutrality.
                      29. +2
                        31 October 2019 21: 00
                        Quote: tesser
                        Naturally. Facts are facts, they need to be known, not believed.

                        I agree. But the trouble is that the facts are often withheld, and you cannot in some historical period have access to all documents of the same Great Patriotic War, and even now. Try to find genuine encryption that is stored in the archives of the GRU or in the 8th department of the General Staff, for example. What will we do with this?
                        Quote: tesser
                        , the golem propagandon Suvorov at one time was very useful,

                        Do you mean Rezun? If so, what is the big use of his lies?
                        Quote: tesser
                        and formulate, at least for himself, but what is wrong?

                        I agree with this - we must first of all understand for ourselves what the truth is, and only then defend it so as not to look ridiculous in a dispute with those who have a different opinion based on a false interpretation of events and facts.
                        Quote: tesser
                        The Swedes were neutral in the Anglo-German war and were not neutral in the Soviet-Finnish.

                        But didn’t they support the German economy with their trade after the start of the Second World War? There is a fact of economic assistance to Germany, which means they were not neutral in the classical sense.
                        Quote: tesser
                        The Swiss were neutral.

                        And their banks did not conduct operations with fascist Germany, and the enterprises did not supply products to the Wehrmacht? I think that in this case, neutrality is just a convention that the Germans used throughout the war.
                        Quote: tesser
                        They led the merchant woman, hid a bloody little gold, there are no questions, for that we need neutrality.

                        And for some reason I thought that neutral countries should try not to tarnish their reputation, and not use their position to provide covert assistance to one of the belligerents, limiting themselves, for example, to the activities of the Red Cross or humanitarian aid to prisoners of war.
                      30. -2
                        31 October 2019 23: 53
                        Quote: ccsr
                        What will we do with this?

                        Nothing. It is required to work with what is.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        If so, what is the big use of his lies?

                        The fact that two different lies is much better than one, the only true one that was available in the 80s.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        But didn’t they support the German economy with their trade after the start of the Second World War?

                        Naturally supported. And not WWII, but WWII. As for the Second World War, the USSR was the enemy of Sweden, but the Reich was not. You, I see, have forgotten about the liberation of the Finnish working people from the royal imperfections, and the Swedes have not forgotten.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        which means they were not neutral in the classical sense.

                        I don’t know what your classic understanding is. A non-classical understanding of neutrality is to suck two queens.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        And their banks did not conduct operations with fascist Germany, and the enterprises did not supply products to the Wehrmacht?

                        Quote: tesser
                        They led the merchant woman, hid a bloody little gold, there are no questions, for that we need neutrality.

                        Quote: ccsr
                        And for some reason I thought that neutral countries should try not to tarnish their reputation.

                        And someone there presented to me for excessive fluffiness.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        for example, the activities of the Red Cross or humanitarian aid to prisoners of war.

                        So you can’t make money with bread and butter.
                      31. +2
                        1 November 2019 12: 00
                        Quote: tesser
                        Nothing. It is required to work with what is.

                        Nifiga yourself approach! And if the documents hidden now refute the topic of your dissertation, for example, how do they treat you later when they are declassified? Here one author on another topic famously lied about intelligence and accused her of allegedly indicating the wrong numbers of German regiments. And the recently declassified Shaposhnikov's report, where the potential of Germany is assessed only by divisions, put a big pig on him - this is how the soap bubbles of some small-town "researchers" burst.
                        Quote: tesser
                        The fact that two different lies is much better than one, the only true one that was available in the 80s.

                        By definition, lies cannot be the best, even if there are two or more of them - I'm sure of that. You do not know the truth - there is nothing to lie for the sake of your ignorance.
                        Quote: tesser
                        As for the Second World War, the USSR was the enemy of Sweden, but the Reich was not.

                        Why on earth, if our embassy worked there throughout the war?
                        Quote: tesser
                        A non-classical understanding of neutrality is to suck two queens.

                        This does not smell close to neutrality, and is an excuse for vile politicians.
                        Quote: tesser
                        So you can’t make money with bread and butter.

                        So then let's not talk about neutrality at that time at all - it simply did not exist, and almost all countries participated on one side or another in the world war.
                      32. -2
                        1 November 2019 18: 30
                        Quote: ccsr
                        so then it treats you when they are declassified?

                        To write a monograph on them, of course.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        By definition, lies cannot be the best, even if there are two or more of them - I'm sure of that.

                        You are sure wrong. Two hostile lies undermine each other, help to find spaces, stretches and specific examples of fraud in each other. That is, they help to find the truth, first with pieces of the puzzle, then with the big picture.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Why on earth, if our embassy worked there throughout the war?

                        They did not declare war, weapons and volunteers were sent.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        is an excuse for vile politicians

                        I have no other politicians for you, you are our fluffy.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        almost all countries participated on one side or another in the world war.

                        That is why it is world-wide, that if not the country itself, then its main trading partners are at war.

                        I seem to have written in detail. One thing is trade, the second is joint military operations, the third is the supply of weapons at one’s own expense.
                      33. +1
                        2 November 2019 10: 15
                        Quote: tesser
                        To write a monograph on them, of course.

                        And the previous dissertation in the furnace and abandon the title to (d). And.?

                        Quote: tesser
                        You are sure wrong. Two hostile lies undermine each other, help to find spaces, stretches and specific examples of fraud in each other.

                        Where I had to communicate this sophistry was not perceived - the type of activity was different, and there only truth was required, based on reliable sources. So your thoughts would not have rolled in, whatever you wrapped them in.

                        Quote: tesser
                        I seem to have written in detail. One thing is trade, the second is joint military operations, the third is the supply of weapons at one’s own expense.

                        Come on, it doesn’t make for an excuse, as well as the fact that for the sake of "humanity" the Americans tried to avoid large-scale bombing of German enterprises that had partly American capital and retreated into their zone of occupation.
                      34. -2
                        2 November 2019 14: 07
                        Quote: ccsr
                        abandon the title to (d). and.?

                        With a fig eh? Science is not the establishment of "truth" so that you know, priests and honest journalists are engaged in "truth". Science is the creation of content of a certain quality and internal coherence based on available base. When, for example, the Americans recently discovered that the Japanese also know how to write in some of their gibberish languages, but there is a right mouse button that allows you to read this - the history of the Pacific War has been radically revised. But, as far as I am aware, no one was shot at the same time for previous (anti) scientific achievements.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        only true, based on reliable sources.

                        Again you with your felts. The truth is being addressed by the historians of Middle-earth J. Tolkien. The history of Russia / USSR is occupied by such people as the doctor of various sciences Medinsky and General Epishev on the one hand, foreign agents, pedophiles and runaway spies on the other.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        no excuse

                        What other excuses did you find with me? Brezhnev, Spaats, tell us more about the blacks who are lynched, and we will end here.
                      35. +1
                        2 November 2019 17: 13
                        Quote: tesser
                        Science is not the establishment of "truth" so that you know, priests and honest journalists are engaged in "truth". Science is the creation of content of a certain quality and internal coherence based on the existing base.

                        It seems to me that you are one of the current "graduate" - a painfully extravagant view of science, especially accurate.
                        Quote: tesser
                        The history of the Pacific War has been radically revised.

                        I have not read what the Japanese are writing now, but I had to study several works of our specialists on that war, and therefore I have my opinion based on their views. If someone now "discovers" something new, I am unlikely to radically change my views, because the amount of information that is known after the end of that war is enough to understand what was happening there.
                        Quote: tesser
                        The history of Russia / USSR is occupied by such people as the doctor of various sciences Medinsky and General Epishev on the one hand, foreign agents, pedophiles and runaway spies on the other.

                        I don’t know anything about Medinsky, what kind of historian he is, and Epishev wasn’t either, but historian E. Spitsin is listening with interest, because in my opinion he is one of the best modern historians in our country. But this is my personal opinion, so that you understand it.
                        Quote: tesser
                        What other excuses did you find with me?

                        Apparently this was not an excuse, but your flight of thought into the unknown gave. When you return from them, inform them that the conversation is more substantive.
                      36. -2
                        30 October 2019 23: 39
                        Why until the 44th ???
                      37. -3
                        31 October 2019 00: 26
                        Quote: Perdit monocle capra
                        Why until the 44th ???

                        Because in August-September of the 44th, the US ambassador Harriman and the head of the military mission Dean began to write to Washington that no alliance between the USSR and the USA exists and cannot exist. By the spring of the 45th, the USSR and the USA were actually at war, about which Dean and Harriman went to report to Washington personally, each in their own line.

                        Fortunately for the USSR, in that world that the city of fantasy imagined Roosevelt, Hull, Stettinius and others, there was no place for a bad USSR, and especially a war with the USSR. Marshall at that time generally spit on political issues from a high bell tower, reducing his functions exclusively to administrative ones, Truman was completely isolated from current issues by Roosevelt and for at least six months after taking office he could not understand the monstrous state of affairs (there is reason to believe that much longer). The Roosevelt administration, and then Truman, managed to lie to themselves and others about the wrong Egain until the summer of 1950 and finally start fighting with the USSR in an immeasurably weaker position than they had in the 45th, especially the 44th . They chose shame several times, and got both shame and war, bloody, but meaningless. In their case, Korean, then Vietnamese.
                      38. 0
                        1 November 2019 19: 52
                        I wonder where you read it ??? The United States was faithful to allied treaties until the last day of WW2. In September, the last LL came to the USSR.
                        And what was Roosevelt wrong saying about the neighbor’s fire and hose ??? The United States very skillfully used LL to its advantage. What claims to them ???
                      39. -2
                        2 November 2019 03: 48
                        Quote: Perdit monocle capra
                        What claims to them ???

                        For the Land Lease? Yes, there are no complaints, I even think that Roosevelt in this case was certainly right, and Taft was not (in 41st). I just listed LL among the real politicians of the time, along with Munich and the Pact. If the word "abomination" confuses you, you can call it "creative". All three solutions are a way to buy time to mobilize, and the Americans' idea is by far the most elegant and humane. Unlike the "appeasement" of Hitler and the Pact, LL more than paid off, both during and after the war.
                        Quote: Perdit monocle capra
                        The United States was faithful to allied treaties until the last day of WW2. In September, the last LL came to the USSR.

                        Yes, although Dean, Kennan and others, I repeat, offered to finish with him as early as September 44th. You can read Kennan, if you want, on the same milter. But the late Roosevelt was already incapable of such turns, and the early Truman did not understand at all that he came with a knife to a shootout.
              2. +15
                30 October 2019 19: 45
                I have been studying history (including the history of the Second World War) for more than 20 years. He started back in Soviet patterns and thoughts of Comrade Zhukov. And I dare to assure you, I understand the subject. - Chit

                It is evident that you do not know enough about the history of the Second World War, especially regarding the constantly opening archives.
                I.V. Stalin knew that there would be a war in June 1941, a large number of facts, especially those that had been discovered in recent decades, spoke of this. I will cite only a few - the early release of commanders from military schools and academies in May 1941, and Stalin’s speech dated May 05, 1941 at a reception in honor of graduates of military academies, in which he spoke of a close war with Germany; the partial mobilization of 800.000 reservists carried out in February-March, in the form of BUSs sent to the western military district; the nomination in April-May 1941 of several armies from the internal districts and Siberia also to the western districts, etc.

                In fact, despite the numerical superiority in the quantity of military equipment, the Red Army was weaker than the Wehrmacht in terms of skill and organization of troops, the training of soldiers and commanders, the quality of general training, and the use of new tactical and strategic warfare methods developed by the German military. It is enough to cite as an example the developed method of conducting a blitzkrieg based on the use of tank groups, the coordination of different branches and types of armed forces in them, aimed at a concentrated and crushing breakthrough of the front and the encirclement of large masses of enemy forces, in comparison with our 1000 tank clumsy mechanized corps, poorly organized service and maintenance of equipment, almost no communication, coordination with artillery, infantry, aviation, etc.

                In addition, it is not necessary to discount our eternal mess and indifference, permeating the entire vertical command of the Red Army from the bottom to the highest general with the facts of their direct betrayal. As an example, it’s enough to cite the command of the OZapVO under the leadership of General Pavlov, who in fact sabotaged the implementation of the directives of the General Staff and the People’s Commissariat of Defense for putting troops on alert in the last pre-war days, starting from June 10-12, 1941, which actually determined the defeat of the district forces in the first days of the war, and opened a 400 km hole on the entire Western Front.
                Well, etc. etc., you can write a lot on this topic. In the last two decades, a large number of historical studies on this topic have been published, which give reasonably enough evidence of the causes of the defeat of the SC in 1941-42, and the role of I.V. Stalin is minimal in them. Most of these reasons are objectively logical because of the backwardness of military-technical production, the low educational and cultural level of the population, which inevitably affects the Red Army, the low training of command personnel to generals and marshals, inclusive.
                1. -14
                  30 October 2019 20: 40
                  Let’s not now popularize the calculations of Suvorov-Rezun. Because your theses fit perfectly into them.
                  If Stalin knew that there would be a war in 1941, then this only says that it was he who wanted to start it. There is nothing else to explain this "knowledge".
                  If Stalin KNEW that the war would begin with an attack by Hitler, then there was no forgiveness to him. If you knew, why didn’t you prepare? Why concentrated the troops in two ledges, which the German instantly cut off? Why brought the airfields to the border? After all, the German will attack! After all, everything will fall under attack! Everything will be destroyed!
                  Is Stalin's guilt minimal? Yes, Stalin was solely responsible for everything that happened in the USSR, including the Red Army! Who should be involved in training team personnel from generals to marshals, inclusive? Soldier Ivan Chonkin? Or the Supreme Commander-in-Chief, the Secretary General of the party to which all military units are subordinate?
                  Who should analyze the political and military situation, evaluate intelligence of the Red Army and the NKVD? Who should make the right decision on defense of the state border of the USSR? Who was obliged to foresee everything, up to the sudden attack of Germany?
                  1. -1
                    30 October 2019 21: 03
                    Quote: Chit
                    If you knew, why didn’t you prepare?

                    Quote: Chit
                    why did he concentrate the troops in two ledges,

                    Quote: Chit
                    Why brought the airfields to the border?

                    Here, I’ve been preparing, what else do you need.
                    Quote: Chit
                    Who was obliged to foresee everything, up to the sudden attack of Germany?

                    What to do, the spy and wrecker Beria shot all the fellow soldiers on the far approaches to Comrade Stalin’s office. The unwillingness to meet the Wehrmacht as it was in 40-41 is a common problem.
                  2. -1
                    31 October 2019 06: 40
                    Only a finished clinical one could write this:
                    If Stalin knew that there would be a war in 1941, then this only says that he wanted to start it.

                    You will find the diagnosis of idiocy online.
                    Is Stalin's guilt minimal? Yes, Stalin was solely responsible for everything that happened in the USSR, including the Red Army!

                    Who are you to judge I.V. Stalin? What have you personally done for your country, huh?
                    Do you at least a little of your meager, wretched, plebeian mind represent all that burden of responsibility (April - June 1941) that lay on the shoulders of Stalin before the entire Soviet people and the USSR as a whole?
                    If it weren’t for Stalin, there would be no one alive! The Nazis would destroy the entire population of the USSR.
                    Although people like you would most likely start working with the Germans and submit lists of communists and Jews to the GESTAPO in time.
                    1. +4
                      31 October 2019 08: 19
                      Quote: Obi Wan Kenobi
                      This could only be written by a finished clinical

                      Quote: Obi Wan Kenobi
                      You will find the diagnosis of idiocy online

                      Quote: Obi Wan Kenobi
                      You at least imagine your meager, wretched, plebeian mind

                      Quote: Obi Wan Kenobi
                      such as you would most likely begin to cooperate with the Germans and in time submit to the GESTAPO lists of communists and Jews.

                      Here are the gems of the gentlemen "patriots" sunk in the discussion.
                  3. +2
                    31 October 2019 07: 13
                    Let’s not now popularize the calculations of Suvorov-Rezun. Because your theses fit perfectly into them.
                    If Stalin knew that there would be a war in 1941, this only says that it was he who wanted to start it. Nothing else can explain this "knowledge". - Chit

                    Ha ha ha Yes, you can see, except for the traitor and the nonsense Rezunov-Suvorov, you have not read or heard anything about modern research on the history of the Great Patriotic War, if you state this. They read liberal stories and myths, and sprinkle them like peas against a wall, without analyzing them, and without critically interpreting them.
                    Are you the names of such researchers of the history of the Great Patriotic War as E. Spitsyn, Yu. Zhukov, A. Martirosyan, Yu. Mukhin, A. Isaev, S. Chekunov, O. Kozinkin, and others. What are they talking about?
                    I.V. Stalin is not a comprehensive God, in order to look into every small problem of the USSR, he solved the global issues of building socialism in the USSR, improving the well-being of people, preparing the country for an imminent war, and to solve these problems he not only worked on them, but also trained command personnel and arranged them to the decisive sections of the construction of the country and the Army. Those who could not cope with the work he dismissed, set others, until he found those who could do the job and who could be relied on with complete confidence. Was wrong about that? Yes, he was mistaken many times, but such is life — errors are inevitable here. One of them is the appointment of G. Zhukov and Tymoshenko to the leadership of the Red Army before the war, but more on that below.

                    Now about the defeat of the beginning of the war, the deployment of the Red Army in Bialystok and Lviv ledges, the deployment of airfields and military depots with a large amount of equipment and military equipment lost in the early days of the war near the border.
                    Some of the authors - falsifiers of the history of the Great Patriotic War, the slopes, in the continuation of Rezun-Suvorov's bluff, or, to be more precise, the bluff of Goebels - Hitler's mouthpiece, based on this pre-war deployment of the Red Army troops, to assert that the USSR was preparing to be the first to start a war against Germany, "to bring socialism to the peoples of Europe", etc. These include the successors of the Rezun-Suvorov case - M. Solonin, Svanidze, M. Meltyukhov, etc.
                    Other, objective historians, researchers, including A. Martirosyan, O. Kozinkin, S. Chekunov and others, based on archival data, revealed the "secret" of such a pre-war deployment of our troops. And it is as follows.

                    The pre-war leadership of the Red Army (G. Zhukov, Timoshenko) was replaced by the only one approved by the country's leadership, and I. Stalin, in October 1940, the Defense Plan - "Considerations for the deployment of troops ...", developed by Marshal B.M. Shaposhnikov, based on the principles of active defense, on his own version of the start of the war. The Zhukovsky option consisted in an immediate counter-offensive by the Red Army troops against the attacking German troops from the Lvov (main attack on Lublin, Krakow) and Bialystok (auxiliary attack on Warsaw) protrusions, with the aim of "preventing the deployment of German troops" and surrounding them with the actions of mechanized corps, with " stubborn tough defense "in the remaining sectors of the front, which was expressed in the famous Directive No. 3 of 22.06.1941/15/1941 and the Plan -" Considerations for the deployment of troops ... "of May XNUMX, XNUMX (though not signed by anyone, but nevertheless developed ).
                    Moreover, as G. Zhukov himself later admitted in conversations with the writer Simonov, they even offered I. Stalin to be the first to start a preventive war against Germany, but Stalin categorically rejected their proposals that he accepted Zhukov with post-war gratitude, understanding the after-fact of the inevitable multiple defeat, what really happened in June 1941.

                    Why did I. Stalin trust Zhukov-Tymoshenko in preparing the Red Army for war? At that time, Stalin was not the Supreme Commander-in-Chief, did not possess the necessary luggage of military knowledge to understand the disastrous essence of the options for starting the war offered by the military, and much was done quietly by them, since they achieved the subordination of the Special Departments in the Red Army, from the NKVD to the People’s Commissariat of Defense. Only after the outbreak of the war, seeing where he was brought by timothy bugs, he was forced to take control of not only the country, but also the Army, and gradually improve the situation.
                    1. 0
                      31 October 2019 13: 21
                      Quote: vladimirZ
                      and gradually straighten the position


                      1942 disaster near Kharkov, in Crimea, the Germans breakthrough into the Caucasus ...
                      what do historians think about this?
                      After the winter successes of 1941-1942, Stalin was in a state of euphoria near Moscow, Tikhvin and Rostov. It was the frivolity of Stalin, who overestimated the capabilities of the Red Army and underestimated the Wehrmacht, became, according to an established opinion, the cause of the disaster near Kharkov, in the Crimea and the Germans' exit to Stalingrad and the Caucasus.
                      1. +1
                        31 October 2019 19: 11
                        After the winter successes of 1941-1942, Stalin was in a state of euphoria near Moscow, Tikhvin and Rostov. It was the frivolity of Stalin, who overestimated the capabilities of the Red Army and underestimated the Wehrmacht, became, according to an established opinion, the cause of the disaster near Kharkov, in the Crimea and the Germans' exit to Stalingrad and the Caucasus. - DimerVladimer

                        And whose opinion is this? There was no frivolity, and no euphoria either. The battle of Moscow showed the ability of the Red Army to conduct defensive battles, but the insufficient ability to organize offensive operations, in essence, was pushing out exhausted German troops from Moscow. The first attempts at the beginning of 1942 to break through the German front near Moscow and bring army groups into the breakthrough in order to achieve at least some front-line success in the direction of Vyazma ended with the encirclement of the 33rd Army, its complete defeat and death, surrounded by its commander, Lieutenant General M Efremov.
                        As for the defeat of the spacecraft near Kharkov in 1942, the initiative for the offensive operation of the spacecraft belonged to the command of the South-Western direction, headed by Tymoshenko, a member of the Armed Forces Khrushchev, chief of staff Baghramyan, who went to Headquarters in March 1942 with such a proposal.
                        The General Staff, having considered this proposal, concluded that it was impossible to carry out such an operation in the spring of 1942. This was reported to I. Stalin. The headquarters, unable to strengthen the South-West direction with its reserves, agreed with the opinion of the General Staff. Marshal S.K. Timoshenko was asked to develop a plan for a limited operation only with the aim of defeating the enemy grouping in the Kharkov region and liberating the city with the available forces. The initiative of the command of the Southwestern Front turned out to be poorly developed and poorly organized, and besides, it still stumbled upon a "sudden" (again "sudden" for them) offensive of the Germans in this sector of the front, which led to the encirclement and death of our troops. Who is interested in more details in the article "Kharkov disaster in May 1942" http://www.historia.ru/2008/01/kharkov.htm
                        As for the defeat in the Crimea in 1942, the SC was again shown the inability to conduct offensive operations in that period, and with due German counterattack, our troops simply lost.
                        In fact, at that time, the German army was stronger than the Red Army, which ensured the success of the Germans in the entire South-West and South directions. Ours could only hold strategic active defense, retreat gradually grinding the German troops. And this was the strategic plan of the Supreme High Command Headquarters, which is confirmed by the fact that the preparation of the defense of Stalingrad began in October 1941.
                  4. +2
                    31 October 2019 17: 04
                    Quote: Chit
                    Who should be involved in training team personnel from generals to marshals, inclusive

                    You’ll laugh, but not the Supreme. This is the General Staff involved. And war games are being held. Even the same Zhukov at headquarters games according to some reports, just like the Germans cut off the Bialystok ledge (although maybe it's just rumors)
                    http://militera.lib.ru/docs/da/sov-new-1940/92.html
              3. +3
                30 October 2019 19: 59
                Stalin did not oversleep Hitler’s strike and the attack was not a surprise. We had nothing to oppose the German military machine. Neither in terms of tactics, nor in terms of command and control.
                1. -1
                  31 October 2019 13: 24
                  Quote: AS Ivanov.
                  Stalin did not oversleep Hitler’s strike and the attack was not a surprise. We had nothing to oppose the German military machine. Neither in terms of tactics, nor in terms of command and control.


                  And who is responsible for this?
                  1. 0
                    31 October 2019 17: 09
                    Quote: DimerVladimer
                    And who is responsible for this?

                    In any war there are winners and losers. Well, let Stalin be responsible. Let us put the question differently, but could a 41-year defeat be avoided?
              4. +5
                30 October 2019 20: 21
                "And don't blame everything on intelligence. The intelligence reports were different and covered events from different points of view."
                It is very convenient to broadcast on the afterlife from the heights of righteous anger ...
                And it seems your grandfathers have nothing to do with it ...
                And where exactly you, with your angry pose, and not at all a position ...
                Yes, of course, all this does not mean that Stalin was infallible ....
                as indeed Zhukov, who you adored, who stubbornly believed that the German, seeking harm, would attack exclusively the kuev, and he did not care about Belarusian swamps, well, if only because there, for example, the mosquito vegetable ...
              5. +1
                30 October 2019 20: 21
                As an adult, who has been studying the history of the Second World War for 20 years, you should know that the unexpected attack of Germany on the USSR was politically beneficial. This suited the leadership of the Union. You must know the reaction of the civilized world to the war with the white whales and the liberation campaign ... To bomb the oil fields of Baku in Great Britain was something. And the will was and the empire had the opportunity. The Union remembered how the Germans, the British, the French, the Americans and the Japanese came to visit Russia during the Civil War ... The Soviet leadership did everything right in the spring and summer of 1941. At the everyday level. In time mobilization was announced ... I think you do not know when it was announced .... This is not a well-known date. Let it remain that way. The leadership of the USSR did not plan a war on its territory. The enemy must be beaten on its territory. What is unusual or abstruse in this? Or too impudent? ,, Oh, you are so тогда Well then get ... ,, - here's the shortest ,, synopsis, about the intentions of the leadership of the Union for the summer of 1941. The stories of 1942 are for an ignorant layman. ... They were confident in their strength. Spain and Hassan In general - everything is fine! ... You are correctly talking about the balance of power of the parties. The Nazi tank T-1 did not have a gun, but had 2 7,92mm machine guns. How many such “tanks” could be chopped into a nut, the Soviet KV-2 armed with a 152mm caliber cannon? But the T-1 crawled to Moscow, and the KV-2 ended up in Berlin only as a trophy.
                The catastrophe of 1941 is not a “worldly” level, not a military mistake by Stalin. How many verbiage has already tried to explain how it is possible, easily and easily, to destroy thousands of Soviet tanks in 1941. And Kolobanov, and Lavrinenko?
                For hundreds of years, Russians have known: ,, God will not give out, a pig will not eat! ,, In 1941, -, gave out ,,. They deserve it. “Holy Russia” is the name of Russia that has been established for centuries. And any state located on this territory must be responsive to the task set by the Creator of Russia. There is a desire to prejudice, ,, to fool around,? Well then, get ready, get on the neck ,,. Moreover, the lesson of 1941 was not learned ... And they got the 1991th. The Union did not collapse then, collapsed after 50 years. Notice how for ,, correctional school ,, - clearly after 50 years. (2021st survive?)
                Former seminarian Stalin understood what was happening. Therefore, he sharply changed relations between the Soviet state and the Church since January 1943 .... Therefore, the word ,, victory ”is placed on the Order of Victory under the SPASSKAYA tower of the Kremlin
              6. +5
                30 October 2019 21: 05
                Quote: Chit
                And I dare to assure you, I understand the subject.

                Do not understand. Apparently, 20 years were not enough for you
                Quote: Chit
                I am not interested in what Stalin was counting on and what Stalin was counting on. I am interested in the fact of the catastrophic defeat of the Red Army in June.

                And you are clearly not interested in the real reasons for this rout.
                Quote: Chit
                I ask for an answer why he overslept Hitler’s attack in 1941.

                I gave it to you. It’s not my fault that after 20 years of studying history you could not learn the most elementary, elementary truths.
                Quote: Chit
                And do not blame everything on intelligence. Intelligence reports were different and covered events from different angles.

                And there is a fact - intelligence overslept the transfer of divisions to the Soviet border.
                Quote: Chit
                I ask a specific question: if you have deployed a large accumulation of manpower and equipment in the border areas (for what purpose - now is not about that), why not bother with its preservation and safety?

                First, take the trouble to study why Stalin deployed a large number of troops in the border regions. This is the KEY question of the reasons for the defeat of 1941.
                When you find out that:
                1) After the WWII, all countries knew that the war does not begin when the guns rattle, but when the probable enemy begins a general mobilization;
                2) The USSR, due to its large areas and relatively weak transport network, lost to Germany in mobilization for about 3-4 weeks. From which it obviously followed that Germany, having begun general mobilization on the same day as the USSR, would be ahead of the Country of Soviets by almost a month in deployment. And from this, in turn, it followed that deciding to start a war with the USSR, Germany automatically receives a strategic initiative;
                3) By virtue of paragraphs 1-2, the USSR adopted a strategic plan for itself, which in principle corresponded to what the Russian Empire had in anticipation of the WWII;
                4) This plan was to concentrate large enough forces in the border districts and keep them close to full, so that you could quickly replenish the staff for 1-3 days or even fight with the existing staff. In the case of the beginning of the mobilization of Germany, these forces had to deliver a preemptive strike on the territory of the enemy in order to frustrate their deployment and win the very 3-4 weeks of the term until the complete mobilization of the Red Army.
                5) This is exactly what the Russian Empire tried to do in WWI by moving the armies of Samsonov and Rennenkampf to Prussia. However, the mistakes of our command and the hasty troop transfer from the French front led to failure - after the initial victories, Samsonov was defeated;
                6) But this plan could work only if the USSR struck before the German army deployed on its border - otherwise it would completely lose its meaning, because the troops of the border districts could not confront the entire German army. Their numbers were enough for a limited strike in order to disrupt / hamper deployment, and not to defeat the Wehrmacht
                Then, perhaps, you can remember that at the beginning of WWII, Germany fought first with Poland and then with France. That is, her army has ALREADY been mobilized, but ours has not. And, perhaps, realize that the attempt to mobilize the Red Army rested on the fact that Hitler would have considered it the beginning of a war. A war for which, as "excellent" showed the Soviet-Finnish conflict, the Red Army is categorically not ready. Have you ever read extracts from documents of Voroshilov and Tymoshenko? Or haven't you mastered it in 20 years?
                Accordingly, in 1941, everything rested on intelligence. If she recorded the fact of the mass transfer of troops to the Soviet-German border, Stalin could understand that an attack was being prepared on the USSR and could counterattack according to plan. But intelligence:
                1) Overslept the fact of the transfer
                2) Over the years, the size of the German armed forces has been overestimated.
                Therefore, even when it became clear that the Germans had already gathered divisions at the borders of 120, Stalin:
                1) I couldn’t do anything already. Any of his decisions - an attack, announcement of mobilization, demonstrative withdrawal of troops no longer decided anything - the Germans gained an advantage and could attack at any time
                2) There was still hope that the Germans would not attack in 1941, since even 120 divisions, according to our intelligence, were less than 50% of the size of the German army. Why would Hitler not concentrate his entire army for an invasion, but only a small part of it?
                Quote: Chit
                Why did Stalin not allow this simple, elementary thought?

                How, studying history over the course of 20 years, did you manage to learn nothing about it?
                1. -1
                  30 October 2019 21: 32
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  1) After the WWII, all countries knew that the war does not begin when the guns rattle,

                  Well, OK.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Germany, having begun universal mobilization on the same day as the USSR, will be ahead of the Soviet Union country by almost a month in deployment.

                  OK.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  In the case of the beginning of the mobilization of Germany, these forces had to deliver a preemptive strike on the territory of the enemy in order to frustrate their deployment and win the very 3-4 weeks of the term until the complete mobilization of the Red Army.

                  Army cover. It looks elegant.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Then, perhaps, you can recall that at the beginning of WWII, Germany fought first with Poland and then with France.

                  And this is where the problems begin. When G.K. Zhukov received the post of "front commander"?
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  That is, her army was ALREADY mobilized, but ours was not.

                  Hmm, how is it? What other army do you need, besides the one that was actually in the spring of 41? What will mobilization give you?
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  1) Overslept the fact of the transfer

                  There were facts. The analysis failed.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Over the years, the size of the German armed forces has been overestimated.

                  That is yes. Comrade Stalin did not understand well the situation with the Wehrmacht and the situation with the Red Army.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Stalin:
                  1) Already could not do anything.

                  Come on. Who better than you to know that there are a million written stories of "how not to love the 41st year", and not all of them are crazy. Another question is that Comrade Stalin's USSR was what it is and could not be different.
                  1. +1
                    31 October 2019 17: 37
                    Quote: tesser
                    And this is where the problems begin. When G.K. Zhukov received the post of "front commander"?

                    If you have a problem, you should correctly formulate the question, and people will help you :)))) And the Zhukov’s comfront became 10 on October 1941.
                    Quote: tesser
                    Hmm, how is it? What other army do you need, besides the one that was actually in the spring of 41? What will mobilization give you?

                    laughing Dear, you would at least learn the basics of military affairs, or something. In peacetime, divisions in those years (and even later) were maintained according to their reduced staff, that is, the size of the peacetime division was several times less than its size in the military. After the announcement of the mobilization of the division, they received replenishment (from previously served reservists) carried out combat coordination and then were transported to the battlefield. That is, mobilization, in fact, gives the army, without it there is no army.
                    Quote: tesser
                    There were facts. The analysis failed.

                    There were no facts. For a long time, intelligence did not see the German divisions on our border - and suddenly eighty!
                    Quote: tesser
                    Come on. Who better than you to know that there are a million written stories of "how not to love the 41st year", and not all of them are crazy.

                    Yes, some are just deeply mistaken
                    1. -1
                      31 October 2019 18: 49
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      of the Zhukov’s confrontation became October 10, 1941

                      Suddenly. But who worked at 01.07.1940, don’t you remember?
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      That is, mobilization, in fact, gives the army, without it there is no army.

                      It seems that you paid some attention to the Second World War. From you to hear that the Red Army in June 1941 was in dire need of the call of the collective farmers somehow strange.

                      It would be nice to talk about transport. But, if I don’t confuse, you yourself said that some kind of game was formed with transport from n / a.
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      For a long time, intelligence did not see the German divisions on our border - and suddenly eighty!

                      That is, still found the Nazis?
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Yes, some are just deeply mistaken

                      You fell into determinism))?

                      In general, this whole conversation about surprise reminds me of future allies, excuse me. They wrote and wrote for 20 years maritime contracts, and then bam, 2: 1 with the Japanese aircraft carriers. Who could know that this would be so? Incredible.

                      More unexpected was perhaps the Wehrmacht in Belgium. Both times.
                      1. 0
                        2 November 2019 10: 36
                        Quote: tesser
                        Suddenly. But who worked at 01.07.1940, don’t you remember?

                        I thought you were talking about command during the war and indicated the date you took command of the Western Front, since Zhukov led the Reserve (August) and Leningrad (September) about a month each.
                        Quote: tesser
                        From you to hear that the Red Army in June 1941 year urgently needed the call of the collective farmers is somehow strange.

                        Collective farmers (more precisely, trained draftees) then needed any massive army in the world. For example, in 1939 the German army (not all, but only field troops, garrisons of fortified areas and construction troops) was supposed to have 2 758 064 people in wartime. In fact, in peacetime there were only 730 thousand people directly in the troops, while the Wehrmacht did not have enough trained recruits - there were only 500 thousand of the first stage and 600 thousand of the second.
                        Quote: tesser
                        That is, still found the Nazis?

                        Found - when it was already too late. What I actually wrote more than once
                        Quote: tesser
                        You fell into determinism))?

                        No, I stay in realism :)))
                        Quote: tesser
                        In general, this whole conversation about surprise reminds me of future allies, excuse me. They wrote, wrote 20 years of maritime contracts, and then bam, 2: 1 with the Japanese aircraft carriers.

                        Excuse me, what are you talking about? :))) at the beginning of the war in the Pacific, the Japanese have 6 heavy and 2 light aircraft carriers, Americans have 2 Lexington, 3 Yorktown, Ranger, Wosp. What's wrong?:)))
                        Quote: tesser
                        More unexpected was perhaps the Wehrmacht in Belgium. Both times.

                        You don’t understand one simple thing - given the quality of command and control of the troops themselves in 1941, our cover army of the border districts was doomed to defeat, no matter what you do with it. This is not a matter of surprise.
                      2. -1
                        2 November 2019 15: 12
                        It's funny. You can't help but understand what I'm talking about, but you decided to dig in in the GlavpUR chronology of the Second World War. Naturally, you have "something that should not be called".
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        believed you were talking about command during the war

                        And where will the fronts come in peacetime?
                        It is, of course, about the Southern Front, the first front commanded by Zhukov. Let me remind you that it was about the warrior Wehrmacht and peaceful Red Army.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        For example, in 1939 the German acting

                        Do you play thimbles? I'm not talking about the Wehrmacht, I'm talking about the Red Army of the 41 year of the sample.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You don't understand one simple thing

                        I understand her perfectly. That is why I run into your mobilization, which they did not manage to carry out: Comrade. Stalin, in the appeal of the 39th 40th, collected everything he could. Why does he need a "trained reserve" that has never seen SVT in the eyes, if he has a full Achtung with sergeants and junior commanders, with company and platoon commanders, who themselves in SVT use only a bayonet and a butt? I'm not talking about army commanders, they have their own song. The Red Army could not be more, call on collective farmers - the USSR is over, all as one will perish in summer boilers.

                        What has it to do with Golikov, who "found it late"? Why is it late, bunkers to dig from the Bug to the Dnieper? Personally, Zhukov and personally Tymoshenko personally went on "excursion campaigns" of the Red Army on the 39th 40th, they personally know themselves: these are Americans who cannot fight in 44, when Patton, who does not know how to fight, turns the front of an attacking one who does not know how to fight in a day 3rd Army 180 degrees, from the Rhine to Bastogne, having led the tank divisions through the infantry marching formations, did not do so in the USSR. The correct words were spoken by Comrade Tymoshenko and personally Comrade. Stalin, about the dizziness of success and modern warfare, but how to fight with this army, and not the one that dreamed of - for two years they did not understand.

                        But the bumpkin Eisenhower understood. Therefore, he did not have boilers. Many why, but also so.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Americans - 2 Lexington, 3 Yorktown, Ranger, Wosp.

                        Remember Langley. Two Lex one York vs Nagumo in December. At the same time, Sarah is bewitched, like a big batch - so she is in California)))
                      3. +1
                        2 November 2019 17: 24
                        Quote: tesser
                        And where will the fronts come in peacetime?

                        From the judgment:
                        Far Eastern Front. It was created by order of the People’s Commissar of Defense of the USSR from June 28, 1938 (in accordance with the decision of the Main Military Council of the Red Army on June 8, 1938) on the basis of the Special Red Banner Far Eastern Army (OKDVA) and was called the Red Banner Far Eastern Front. The front included management, the 1st and 2nd armies, as well as the Khabarovsk group of forces.

                        So there would be a desire, perhaps in the European part of the country they would create fronts in peacetime.
                        Quote: tesser
                        But the bumpkin Eisenhower understood. Therefore, he did not have boilers. Many why, but also so.

                        No need to distort and compare the scale of operations of the Wehrmacht in 1941 and in 1945. - these are two big differences. And in December 1944, the talents of the American commanders somehow did not appear in the Ardennes, and this was far from June 1941 and the Wehrmacht was not at all the same. Trim sturgeon ....
                      4. -2
                        2 November 2019 18: 09
                        Quote: ccsr
                        would create fronts in peacetime.

                        Peaceful as the 38th year in the Far East.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        did not show the talents of American commanders

                        With talent there was poor. But the craft was known. Patton and Bradley, by the way, write that, as always, Monty ruined everything.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        the Wehrmacht was not at all the same.

                        Yes Yes. I heard a lot about the wrong Wehrmacht, and even wrote it myself. There is something to add to this account comrade Konev on the example of Bautzen-Weissenberg, end of April of the 45th year.

                        So that you know, the catastrophe in the West and the shame of Eisenhower were not the inflamed Ardennes. And the boring mouth of the Scheldt, which is of no interest to anyone. Where some 6 thousand people died, and then non-native Canadians.

                        In these meaningless days, weeks, months, both Berlin and Vienna were fond of.
                      5. +1
                        2 November 2019 18: 27
                        Quote: tesser
                        With talent there was poor. But the craft was known. Patton and Bradley, by the way, write that, as always, Monty ruined everything.

                        In general, I don’t see big talents there, and if one of them writes in his memoirs about someone, then to believe them in everything - do not respect yourself. However, our memoirists sometimes cheat to whitewash or embellish themselves, so this is a well-known phenomenon since ancient times.

                        Quote: tesser
                        So that you know, the catastrophe in the West and the shame of Eisenhower were not the inflamed Ardennes.

                        It doesn't interest me at all - you probably didn't understand that your words about "Ike" I took as a typical example of your narcissism. I gave the example of the Ardennes only to show that the German army could present surprises for any commander.
                      6. -1
                        2 November 2019 18: 54
                        Quote: ccsr
                        I don’t see big talents there

                        Quote: ccsr
                        It doesn't interest me at all

                        And I see that you are not interested. It’s just that for some reason you decided to take me away with a proprietary Soviet technique, they say, lost by the Ardennes Model - this, all of a sudden, is the collapse of the Allies, Kharkov, 42nd year. Right now, more about Churchill’s letter and the Vistula-Oder operation, it’s necessary to go with trump cards.
                      7. +1
                        2 November 2019 20: 17
                        Quote: tesser
                        It’s just that for some reason you decided to take me away with a proprietary Soviet technique, they say, lost by the Ardenne Model

                        Why leave you away when you so selflessly admire yourself in the mirror?
                        Quote: tesser
                        Right now, about Churchill's letter

                        And that he was not, or is it not your suit?
                      8. +1
                        2 November 2019 21: 01
                        Quote: tesser
                        It's funny You can't help but understand what I'm talking about

                        I don’t guess. Well, I don’t have a myelophone. In the discussions I met many different misconceptions on WWII, how do I know yours?
                        Quote: tesser
                        And where will the fronts come in peacetime?

                        What does this have to do with the discussion?
                        Quote: tesser
                        Do you play thimbles? I'm not talking about the Wehrmacht, I'm talking about the Red Army of the 41 year of the sample.

                        While you are signing in complete misunderstanding of why the army needs mobilization. I have already cited the Wehrmacht as an example, everything is wrong for you :)))
                        Quote: tesser
                        I understand her perfectly. That is why I run into your mobilization, which they did not manage to carry out: Comrade. Stalin, in the appeal of the 39th 40th, collected everything he could. Why does he need a "trained reserve" that has never seen SVT in the eyes, if he has a full Achtung with sergeants and junior commanders, with company and platoon commanders, who themselves in SVT use only a bayonet and a butt?

                        And now, we will refuse to deploy the army and surrender, so what?
                        Quote: tesser
                        The Red Army couldn’t be bigger, you call the collective farmers — the USSR is over, they will all disappear as one in summer boilers.

                        In fact, the mobilization was carried out. So, for reference :)))
                        Quote: tesser
                        Why late, bunkers to dig from the Bug to the Dnieper?

                        And what's the use of these pillboxes?
                        Quote: tesser
                        when Patton, who doesn’t know how to fight, unfolds the front of the 3 army, which doesn’t know how to fight, by 180 degrees from the Rhine to Bastogne, having led tank divisions through infantry marching orders, this cannot be done in the USSR.

                        Quote: tesser
                        But the bumpkin Eisenhower understood. Therefore, he did not have boilers.

                        :))) This is even reluctant to comment. The Americans were completely incapable of maneuvering war, an example of which is the same Falese cauldron and completely mediocre actions under the Ardennes (1944 g).
                        In fact, the Americans did not have boilers for one reason - simply put, the Germans never had the strength to operate on the encirclement of American troops :))) Therefore, in the first years of the war they beat them perfectly in the forehead, the US victories began when they learned not to yield to the Germans battlefields while having two soldiers on one German and higher.
                        Quote: tesser
                        Remember Langley. Two Lex one York vs Nagumo in December

                        This is not a question of the amount of strength, but a question of the ability to bring them into battle.
                      9. -2
                        2 November 2019 23: 36
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I don’t guess. Well, I don’t have a myelophone.

                        "Which front did Zhukov command on 01.07.1940/XNUMX/XNUMX"? You are right, it is difficult to understand what it is about. Leading questions don't work, I figured it out.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        What does this have to do with the discussion?

                        It is such that if in the USSR, some fronts come out through peacetime in the 4th year, then here and there - maybe we need to take a closer look at the time, and it is not so simple with mobilization.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I have already cited the Wehrmacht as an example, everything is wrong for you :)))

                        Tell about the army of the blitzkrieg "by analogy" with the army of permanent mobilization? Sharp move. Cut off.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        In fact, the mobilization was carried out

                        You are well aware that the hectic formation of the All-Russian Supreme Economic Council has nothing in common, alas, with the staffing up of personnel to wartime, especially with the Wehrmacht, should it be amiss. This did not affect the fate of the PSE at all, even though you will begin the house mobilization in March.
                        Speaking of that. The idea of ​​VSE, of course, spun, but what the hell is this, how to live with it - a complete improvisation of red-banner jazz musicians. There is neither a sane staff, nor training programs, nor ersatz weapons, conditional teaching staff and SU-76. Everyone has more important things to do: 30 mechanized corps will not form themselves. And battleships, more battleships!
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        An example of this is the same Falese cauldron and completely mediocre actions under the Ardennes

                        Yes, I, too, had time, cited these examples. Well, Ike was dumb. Only by the third time I realized what was the secret of the boiler.

                        Montgomery shouldn’t be entrusted with anything.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        the Germans never had the strength to operate on the encirclement of American troops

                        Honestly, I thought that you would show for another: that I compare Soviet poverty with the golden American divisions, with their total connection, mechanization, and aviation in the state. And you decided to tell me that the Yankees crushed in bulk, like the Chinese. Suddenly.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Therefore, in the first years of the war they beat them perfectly in the forehead

                        You, excuse me, were carried away. The first YEARS is until November 44th? Or have you had these years in Tunisia, where Eisenhower, who was beaten in the forehead, stood still, losing how much? 500 infinitely expensive lives per month? 600?
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        It’s not a matter of strength

                        What are you talking about? Nagumo has 6 aircraft carriers, while the Americans have 4,5 (0.5 - Wosp, Ranger - air transport, no Hornet), plus the enemies, unexpectedly, dug up another ocean, about which no one knew, and where at least some aircraft carriers were needed at least Ranger and Wosp. Of course, the Japanese exactly 6 years ago withdrew from the London treaty, but who could have imagined that this would happen? Another second ocean, this stupid, hell brought it.
                      10. 0
                        3 November 2019 02: 31
                        Quote: tesser
                        Honestly, I thought that you would show for another: that I compare Soviet poverty with the golden American divisions, with their total connection, mechanization, aviation in the state.

                        Seriously? :))) Excuse me, but fairy tales are for Hans Christian. In practice, in 1944 (!!!) the Americans had to throw "tankmen" into battle with 6-7 hours of driving. Scraped out on the rear
                        Quote: tesser
                        You, excuse me, were carried away. The first YEARS - this is until November 44?

                        The first years are a surgery
                        Quote: tesser
                        What are you talking about? Nagumo has 6 aircraft carriers, and Americans have 4,5 (

                        Sorry, but this is for your treating doctor. American & Japanese fleets are well known
                      11. -2
                        3 November 2019 09: 42
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        in practice, in 1944 (!!!) the Americans were forced to throw "tankmen" into battle with 6-7 hours of driving. Scraped out on the rear

                        There in the fall of the 44th and clerks handed out rifles. What can you do, if your tanks don’t need armor, then for some reason tankers begin to die for you quickly. If you have arranged such an ingenious system of manning an army as Marshall, when you have two red armies under arms, but almost all of them are 3 thousand km from the theater of operations, you will have problems with infantry replenishment.
                        I am very far from the thought that Marshall, Eisenhower, Patton and others were not mistaken in anything. Moreover, unlike altpositives for the USSR, it would be very simple to make altpositives for the United States if at least someone wanted to do them. A huge number of unforced errors, lack of expertise, incompetence at all levels, assault,
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The first years are

                        From November 42 to May 43, as I understand it. And "hit in the forehead" is 2 715 (two thousand seven hundred and fifteen) infinitely dear lives in 7 months. Well, OK, there are a lot of missing people, but you can't recruit a division with them in the next world. And they did not know how to fight at all, you are right.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        American & Japanese fleets are well known

                        Well, you don’t know, you could ask, but you decided to cheat on me for some reason. Kimmel has Sarah, Lex and Enterprise. Ranger, Wosp and Yorktown in neutral patrol, Hornet is not yet.

                        For 5 years, from April 36th to April 41st, the Americans laid down 1 (one) aircraft carrier, Hornet. There were more important matters: 30 mechanized corps 10 battleships will not build themselves, not to the smallest detail. The little things this time with King and Knox were aircraft carriers, cruisers, submarines, and especially PLO.

                        For comparison, the British for the same 5 years laid 7 AB.
                    2. +1
                      31 October 2019 19: 22
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      In peacetime, divisions in those years (and even later) were maintained according to their reduced staff, that is, the size of the peacetime division was several times lower than its size in the military.

                      First, at that time the divisions were of a reduced composition depending on mobilization readiness, but not at times, but because the minimum number of such divisions was 6000 people:
                      According to some authors, about 10% of the total number of rifle divisions were contained in the state of wartime 04/400, about 80% in the states of peacetime 4/100 (12000 people) or 4/400 (also 12000 people), the rest ( slightly more than 10%) were mountain rifle (maintained on a 4/140 state), 2 motor rifle and 2 rifle divisions, maintained on a 4/120 state (6 people)

                      Secondly, the combat units of the cover units had almost 90% staffing in l / s, but the support units had a large shortage. So from the point of view of defensive battles on the border, the cover divisions were not so poorly manned.

                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      There were no facts. For a long time, intelligence did not see the German divisions on our border - and suddenly eighty!

                      Have you seen the intelligence reports of the General Staff of the General Staff in 1941 to state this? There, the buildup of a group of Germans has been noted since the beginning of spring 1941, for example, Golikov even indicated on March 20 three options for the German troops and the date the attack began - May 20. So your statement about intelligence is not true.
                      1. +1
                        2 November 2019 10: 47
                        Quote: ccsr
                        First, at that time the divisions were of a reduced composition depending on mobilization readiness, but not at times, but because the minimum number of such divisions was 6000 people:

                        Exactly what at times. Because the pre-war staffing of the same infantry division was determined in 14,5 thousand people.
                        Moreover - you are now talking about the state, while the actual state of affairs was much worse. The Red Army in the pre-war period experienced explosive growth, and it turned out all the time that in the state of peacetime laid 6 thousand, in fact there are not three.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Secondly, the combat units of the cover units had almost 90% staffing per l / s

                        This is not true. 103 infantry divisions of border districts were manned by 84%, 60 tank and motorized divisions by 71%
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Have you seen the intelligence reports of the General Staff of the General Staff in the 1941 year to state this?

                        Of course
                      2. +1
                        2 November 2019 11: 28
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Exactly what at times. Because the pre-war staffing of the same infantry division was determined in 14,5 thousand people.

                        Firstly, this concerned only part of the divisions, and as a rule, these were not cover divisions.
                        Secondly, the country did not have the resources to bring all divisions to wartime states, which is why the shortened version was chosen - this is an objective reality, and not someone else’s mistake.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The Red Army in the pre-war period experienced explosive growth, and it turned out all the time that in the state of peacetime laid 6 thousand, in fact there are not three.

                        Once again I say that this is a staff of reduced divisions, and it is determined by the government of the country based on the economic capabilities of the state. It also determines how many such divisions to maintain in peacetime, realizing that the war cannot end in a few weeks, which means that there will be time to mobilize such divisions to 14,5 thousand. What is wrong with the military economy?

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        This is not true. 103 infantry divisions of border districts were manned by 84%, 60 tank and motorized divisions by 71%

                        Firstly, the staffing of 84% even according to the standards of the Soviet Army allows us to recognize such divisions as READY - you seem to be off topic and very strong.
                        Secondly, the overall percentage of staffing does not reflect how the parts within the compound are staffed, and if you had carefully studied these data at least once, then you would have understood why 90-95% were equipped with l / s in the rifle regiments of the cover divisions, but in the same supply battalions (engineer, communications, medical battalion, etc.) sometimes did not even reach 30-40%. But this, if the division is on the defensive, will not greatly affect its combat capabilities, especially when you consider that, according to the views of military science on the part of the cover, they just have to die at the border, but not step back a step.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Of course

                        Well, if you saw, then why then declare:
                        There were no facts. For a long time, intelligence did not see German divisions on our border - and suddenly eighty!

                        What does it mean?
                      3. +1
                        2 November 2019 20: 47
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Firstly, this concerned only part of the divisions, and as a rule, these were not cover divisions.

                        Excuse me, is this all what was said? I know that rifle divisions in the border districts were commissioned at 84%, mechanized corps at about 71% on average.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Secondly, the country did not have the resources to bring all divisions to wartime states, which is why the shortened version was chosen

                        In peacetime, no country holds a mass army in wartime states. All of them, both German and French and ours, required mobilization to bring wartime to the state. What is the problem? You knock on the open door, why?
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Firstly, the staffing of 84% even according to the standards of the Soviet Army allows us to recognize such divisions as READY - you seem to be off topic and very strong.

                        You know, already tired. Are you unable to read the comment, or what? I am writing about the fact that the forces of the border districts were just ready to take action immediately; for this they were kept in states close to the full state of wartime. But, it is ONLY about divisions of border districts! Just that. This is not the whole of the Red Army. I write that this part of our army was combat ready in order to operationalize the mobilization and deployment of the rest of the army. And what do I read in response?
                        Quote: ccsr
                        the staffing of 84%, even according to the norms of the Soviet Army, allows such divisions to be READY - you seem to be off topic and very strong.

                        What nonsense, please tell me?
                      4. 0
                        2 November 2019 21: 00
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I know that rifle divisions in the border districts were commissioned by 84%, mechanized corps - by about 71% on average.

                        There are a large number of divisions in the district, which are staffed differently and are located at different locations. That is why the average figure in the district does not say anything about the manning of the compounds, which in the first hours take a hit on themselves.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        What's the problem?

                        The fact that the German division already had not only the right equipment, but also trained personnel with combat experience. But unfortunately, the personnel were not prepared in our country, and not everywhere was equipped with weapons, as was the case with the Germans.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        What nonsense, please tell me?

                        This is not nonsense - it is known to those who were responsible for the combat readiness of units, and they know the standards when units and formations are considered combat ready and when not.
                2. +6
                  31 October 2019 00: 56
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  How, studying history over the course of 20 years, did you manage to learn nothing about it?

                  hi good Let me answer: IT DIDN'T WANT !!
                  It is important for him to know only what is enough for FOOT!
                  1. 0
                    31 October 2019 17: 38
                    Quote: Igor Aviator
                    It is important for him to know only what is enough FOR COOLING!

                    I can’t but agree :)))) hi
                3. +1
                  31 October 2019 12: 54
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Due to its large areas and relatively weak transport network, the USSR lost Germany in mobilization for about 3-4 weeks. From which it obviously followed that Germany, having begun general mobilization on the same day as the USSR, would be ahead of the Country of Soviets by almost a month in deployment.


                  Yeah, but standing on the border of the USSR MOBILIZED long time ago - actually, fighting for two years German 7 millionth army (the same 7 million as in March 1945, when all mobilizations were long gone)), is already considered "non-war", because Hitler did not use the word "mobilization" .... lol
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  This is exactly what the Russian Empire tried to do in WWI, having moved the army of Samsonov and Rennenkampf to Prussia. though Errors our command and the hasty transfer of troops from the French front led to failure - after the initial victories of Samsonov defeated;

                  1. There was no mistake, but there was the salvation of France and was the main cannon ang-franc. meat there-in the West-this ingenious the course of Russia.
                  Unlike 1940when joyfully rubbed their hands, when the imperialists beat each other. As a result, we stayed ONE against Germany.

                  2. Recognize that the transfer of forces from the West did NOT affect the battle in Prussia - a loss occurred WITHOUT their participation.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Their number of enough for a limited strike to disrupt / hamper deployment, and not to defeat the Wehrmacht

                  It’s not true: the Germans at the border were numerically superior, ours were in the front in tanks, artillery, aircraft.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  . Did you read excerpts from the documents of Voroshilov and Tymoshenko?

                  The Acceptance Act indicates almost ALL the causes of the defeat of the army in 41.
                  But WHO prevented Voroshilov NOT to allow them? Tymoshenko did not indicate that this is IMPOSSIBLE, on the contrary, it was implied that it было doable
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  1) Overslept the fact of the transfer

                  1. TASS statement of June 13, there ALL is indicated

                  2. What do you mean "overslept"? What are the distances from "slept?

                  In conditions of WAR, with battles - the Germans passed 350 km to Minsk in FIVE days!
                  Rokossovsky mechanical corps — more than a hundred km / day, along military roads
                  А without wars on the good roads of Poland? This is hundreds of kilometers a day!
                  Another thing is that NOBODY thought about this, although distant, it would seem, parts of the Germans-MUST be taken into account.
                  1. +1
                    31 October 2019 18: 16
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    Yeah, and standing on the border of the USSR, MOBILIZED a long time ago, in fact, the German 7 million army that has been fighting for two years (the same 7 million as in March 1945, when all mobilizations were long gone)), is already considered "non-war", because the word "mobilization" did not sound to Hitler ...

                    Olgovich, but let’s you, instead of carrying fierce nonsense, go to learn materiel. Then you, for example, will find out that no 7 of a million-strong army has ever stood on our border. And when you learn to distinguish the number of troops gathered for an attack on the USSR from the total staffing of the German Armed Forces, then already try to talk about strategy. Although - I do not recommend it.
                    You are not even able to understand that when the Germans (in much smaller forces) turned around at the borders of the USSR it was already too late to announce the mobilization and this meant provoking the Germans to strike.
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    There was no mistake, but there was the salvation of France and was the main cannon ang-franc. meat there in the West is a brilliant move of Russia.

                    It is difficult to expect even this from you. Soviet diplomacy broke into a cake to create an analogue of the Entente, and the fact that it did not go forward is considered as a stupid mistake of Europe. If the USSR had the opportunity to strike, while the Wehrmacht attacked France, WWII as we know it simply would not exist. For a number of objective reasons, the USSR was completely unable to attack Germany during the battle for France.although it would save the lives of millions of Soviet citizens, since in 1940 Mr. Hitler could not at all fight on the 2 front.
                    In general, we can only regret that we did not have such an opportunity, but to see this as a brilliant move of the USSR ....
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    Find out that the transfer of forces from the West did NOT affect the battle in Prussia-a loss occurred WITHOUT their participation.

                    Find out that it was the redirection of troops from the West that allowed the Germans to take risks and attack Samsonov’s army — they now had reserves that could be used if the battle of Tannenberg was lost.
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    It’s not true: the Germans at the border were numerically superior, ours were in the front in tanks, artillery, aircraft.

                    True. And according to the General Staff of the Red Army, and a retrospective assessment of the available forces was not enough to inflict decisive defeat on the Wehrmacht. And you continue to consider the strength of the army by the number of tanks in its composition. Maybe at least learn to count.
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    But WHO prevented Voroshilov NOT to allow them? Tymoshenko did not indicate that this is IMPOSSIBLE, on the contrary, it was understood that it was doable

                    Are you out of your mind? It says in Russian in white that a commander who knows how to use service weapons should receive a special mark in his personal file. Do you consider it possible to fix it? What time frame? Tymoshenko, and so the feat made unique in terms of increasing the combat effectiveness of the Red Army.
                    And who interfered with Voroshilov ... Well, read at your leisure the changes in the states of the Red Army. About police divisions. About triad. For a terrible money saving, so many who served in the interval between WWII and WWII in the Red Army were never even at the shooting range ... Read at least something! laughing
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    TASS statement from 13 June-there ALL is indicated

                    No, I got excited :)))) Learn to read first! fool And what is the statement here? :))) WE READ THE SCIENTIFIC ACKNOWLEDGMENTS!
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    In conditions of WAR, with battles - the Germans traveled 350 km to Minsk in FIVE days!
                    Rokossovsky mechanical corps — more than a hundred km / day, along military roads
                    And without war, on the good roads of Poland? This is hundreds of kilometers a day!

                    wassat Olgovich ... Your calculations on logistics are even more crazy than anything else.
                    1. 0
                      31 October 2019 18: 40
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      For a number of objective reasons, the USSR was completely unable to attack Germany during the battle for France.

                      Sorry? What else are there for objective reasons? Are you talking about the state of troops or what?
                      1. +1
                        2 November 2019 11: 45
                        Quote: tesser
                        What else are there for objective reasons? Are you talking about the state of troops or what?

                        Simply put, in order to make a decision on the German attack and realize all the benefits of it, you had to know for sure that France would last a month, Germany would attack the USSR in 1941, and also the consequences of this attack. That is, it was necessary to have a time machine, afterglow.
                        The Red Army in 1940 was categorically unprepared for offensive operations. In addition, in order to achieve success, the USSR had to secretly increase the number of troops in the border districts before the invasion of France and attack with decisive goals (and not to disrupt deployment) even before mobilizing troops. In general, to do completely impossible things from the point of view of military science. And this could only be done if you were firmly convinced that you weren’t doing stupid things, which could only be given by afterlife
                      2. -1
                        2 November 2019 15: 47
                        Everything is correct, only a couple of nuances:

                        1. Hidden mobilization in the West. This is not a question, the Pact covered it. Along the entire border of the USSR a peasantry appeared, which it was time to free from the landowners. You know that the Red Army simply choked on draftees 39-41, which you still need to file a mobilization.
                        2. The army can't maneuver? When was the enemy of the people Yakir conducting the Kiev maneuvers there? After 5 years, do you call this "objective circumstances"?
                      3. +1
                        2 November 2019 16: 05
                        Quote: tesser
                        You know that the Red Army simply choked on the recruits 39-41, which you still need to file a mobilization.

                        In fact, in our reality, everything was exactly the opposite - it was in the 39-41 that the Red Army experienced a chronic lack of reservists for wildly expanded states. And I, however, don’t know how to explain this to you.
                        Quote: tesser
                        The army can not maneuver? When there the enemy of the people Yakir carried out Kiev maneuvers?

                        Please stop asking "leading" questions - just tell me what you mean. What are you not aware of? That the Kiev maneuvers were fiction? Or that the inability of the Red Army for serious operations was revealed during the entry of troops into Poland and during the Finnish war? Don't make me guess what you think, please, I don't have time for that
                      4. -1
                        2 November 2019 16: 26
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        It was precisely in 39-41 that the Red Army experienced a chronic shortage of reservists under wildly expanded states

                        You are telling me that there were not enough people for "divisions in bags", all kinds of numbers that Rezun likes to count so much. I tell you that the Red Army lacked lieutenants, and monstrously - sergeants and foremen. The problem is with the skeleton, not the meat. It cannot be solved by mobilization. You consider this to be objective circumstances, but I do not.

                        It seems that you discussed this on other occasions. Build 3 battleships by 20%. And so it is.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Kiev maneuvers were fiction

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        opened during the entry of troops into Poland

                        The Kiev maneuvers showed exactly the same thing as the Louisiana maneuvers: that moving mechanized formations even in their own rear is not for you the First Horse’s carts. The fact that Tymoshenko in the 39th revealed the same thing - I will not name objective circumstances.

                        But I agree with you on another. The Stalinist USSR had no options to avoid the 41st year.
                      5. 0
                        2 November 2019 16: 43
                        Quote: tesser
                        The Stalinist USSR had no options to avoid the 41st year

                        Also infected with Chelyabinsk "fatalism"?) Let me remind you that in the real history of the Red Army it did reach Berlin. With divisions of 5/6.000 bayonets, which were almost never staffed by state
                      6. -2
                        2 November 2019 17: 24
                        Quote: Town Hall
                        Have you also contracted the Chelyabinsk "fatalism"?)

                        The opposite attitude to the Soviet regime does not interfere with the same perception of reality.
                        Quote: Town Hall
                        Let me remind you that in the real history of the Red Army did reach Berlin

                        Like this she came at such a price. Having stooped the Wehrmacht blitzkrieg in endless meat grinders, having already received all sorts of garbage in the 43rd, which, under the leadership of Manstein, were fought by the Panthers in the same way that Rotmistrov did not fight in the same place, and in the 45th Volkssturm in general under Himmler, the commander of the GA Wisla. No other way.

                        And the Soviet divisions of the 45th year are American brigade combat groups with major generals instead of colonels. Just art and people in three divisions as in one American. Feature of the Red Army.
                      7. 0
                        2 November 2019 17: 33
                        It came after a series of devastations unprecedented in history, after the loss of half of the country, with a cruel false start. But in June 1941, without all these tragedies, I could not get anywhere and would have rolled back to any of the Urals? .... because "objective reasons" in the form of "only" 74% of 60 !!! (sic) tank and motorized divisions
                      8. -2
                        2 November 2019 18: 30
                        Quote: Town Hall
                        Reached after an unprecedented series of defeats in history, after losing half of the country, from the most severe false start

                        So.
                        Quote: Town Hall
                        without all these tragedies, I couldn’t go anywhere

                        Without tragedies - no, I couldn’t.
                        Quote: Town Hall
                        because "objective reasons"

                        Because before you win, you had to pay your debts. For Stakhanov’s methods in industry and for the class approach to personnel. For collective farms and for the NKVD. For not having weapons in the world and for the plan on the shaft. For the Comintern and for the invariably peaceful policy. For a comprehensive fraud and for the vile, cowardly misconduct.

                        All these debts he did alone, the Leader and Teacher.

                        His fans never admit it.
                      9. 0
                        2 November 2019 18: 50
                        I’m no worse than you know how steel was tempered. And that the Red Army for 41 years is not a rival to the Wehrmacht, too. I am smiling at the children's excuses of my colleagues from Chelyabinsk and other brothers by clave a la Alexei RA calculating trees (in the form of insufficient% footcloths in rifle divisions) and those who did not see (and did not want to see) the forest behind them — the army could not have flesh from the flesh of the country and another army from that country.
                        My pitch was about something else. PSE was doomed. But it could be burned in two ways. As it was burned. Or also in boilers, But near Krakow and at the Vistula. During a stupid, but still organized attack. Against the Wehrmacht, absolutely unprepared for this . Which without a doubt would grind PSE for a month. But by the end of July I would still be in Poland, and not near Smolensk.
                        Only for this we needed eggs from the supreme leader. Who showed them only if the Baltic states of Romania and the agonizing Poland were against Finland. Against the Amers in Korea, again the eggs refused by the way
                      10. -1
                        2 November 2019 19: 04
                        Quote: Town Hall
                        also in cauldrons, But near Krakow and the Vistula.

                        Like, Rezun was right? I do not remember such an alternative, but there are percentages somewhere else. Perhaps uv. colleague Andrei will tell you.

                        But my heart feels, nothing more or less would have changed. One of the main arguments of the anti-Rezunovites: the army, which was defending like this, will not reach the Vistula stupidly. And they tried to attack that summer, this is well known. Good did not end.
                      11. -2
                        2 November 2019 19: 23
                        We tried when it was too late. Already on June 14 (TASS report) it was clear to everyone including Father and Genius that Something went wrong. But he got scared, as always.
                        The offensive on June 26/27 against the Wehrmacht running in full steam, from semicircle, in panic and chaos, was a pernicious affair. On June 14, half the Wehrmacht was in the cars, and the second half was hiding in disordered crowds through the forests.
                        We’ll leave the Rezun ravings about jumping to the English Channel on freeway tanks to the side. We wouldn’t reach the Vistula but also would not roll back to the Volga. This is 100%.
                      12. +1
                        2 November 2019 20: 40
                        Quote: tesser
                        You are telling me that there were not enough people for "divisions in sacks", all kinds of numbers that Rezun likes to count so much. I tell you that the Red Army lacked lieutenants, and monstrously - sergeants and foremen. The problem is with the skeleton, not the meat.

                        One does not cancel the other. It is clear that it was very bad with officers, but this did not cancel the problems of bringing the divisions to the number of wartime
                        Quote: tesser
                        You consider this an objective circumstance, but I do not.

                        On that and decide :)))
                    2. -1
                      1 November 2019 10: 15
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Olgovich, but let’s you, instead of carrying fierce nonsense, go to learn materiel. Then, for example, you will find out that no 7 millionth army has ever stood on our border. And when you learn to distinguish the number of troops gathered for an attack on the USSR from the total staffing of the German Armed Forces, then already try to talk about strategy. Though - not recommend.


                      I answered Yours same "thoughts" on the mobilization of the whole army of Germany and the USSR, and not about its specific parts .. on the border.
                      Or are you already ......Do not remember? belay So see above! request

                      And about her generally, naturally, and spoke, referring to standing in the West from us 7 million army Germany.

                      Leave your recommendations to yourself - they are clearly more necessary for you.
                      Although, there is little hope that you are no longer broadcasting about "NOT mobilized" 7 million Wehrmacht, somehow managing. in the same time. already 2g to fight in the WORLD WAR Yes
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      It is difficult to expect even this from you. Soviet diplomacy broke into a cake to create an analogue of the Entente, and the fact that it did not go forward is considered as a stupid mistake of Europe.

                      Ay-yay-yay, what a "stupid" vile vile Europe! Yes

                      Only I will remind you that England and France have not changed in hundreds of years and have ALWAYS been so "vile and mean" thinking about themselves.

                      BUT! - Russia was ABLE to negotiate with them, but the USSR-NO! This is just a fact.
                      Why they were afraid of the USSR a little less than Germany-ask them, the Comintern and ravings about the world revolution.
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      If the USSR had the opportunity to strike while the Wehrmacht attacked France, WWII, as we know it, would simply not exist. For a number of objective reasons, the USSR absolutely could not attack Germany during the battle for France, although this would save the lives of millions of Soviet citizens, since in 1940 Hitler could not at all fight on 2 fronts.

                      MTF for ALL reasons and reasons. Moreover, in the face of the example of WWI. but- they wanted to be the most cunning ....
                      Moreover, he had every reason, including legal: for example Franco-Soviet Mutual Assistance Pact 1935, but missed a unique chance to save himself from 1941 and congratulated Germany on ... taking Paris.
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Find out that it was the redirection of troops from the West that allowed the Germans to take risks and attack Samsonov’s army — they now had reserves that could be used if the battle of Tannenberg was lost.

                      It’s good that you already realized that these troops did NOT take part in the Prussian operation in the Samsonov’s defeat -NO, as you claimed.
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Truth. And according to the General Staff of the Red Army, and a retrospective assessment of the available forces was not enough for inflicting decisive defeat on the Wehrmacht. .

                      And who spoke about ... the decisive defeat of the Wehrmacht, except YOU?belay Speak for yourself and answer?
                      There were enough of them for defense and to prevent defeat in reality.
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      And you continue to consider the strength of the army by the number of tanks in its composition. Maybe even learn to count.

                      they certainly mean NOTHING, which is why they cut like butter. fronts 41-42 years and created unprecedented boilers in History. This is all infantry.
                      I don’t give you such advice: I’m afraid that it’s too late ....
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Are you out of your mind? T

                      Bravo! good Yes This is an argument!
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      It says in Russian in white that a commander who knows how to use service weapons should receive a special mark in his personal file. Do you consider it possible to fix it? AT what terms?

                      You do not understand the Russian language, alas. ONCE AGAIN: The Act implied that it MUST BE DONE under Voroshilov
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      And who interfered with Voroshilov ... Well, read at your leisure the changes in the states of the Red Army. About police divisions. About triad. For a terrible money saving, so many who served in the interval between WWII and WWII in the Red Army were never even at the shooting range ... Read at least something!

                      Yeah, the dancing problem, I see.

                      Then you have a speech Commissar of Defense USSR Voroshilov, 37 g of the Central Committee in St. Petersburg;
                      the workers 'and peasants' Red Army is now a huge industrial organization. We are the owners colossal car park. We own, therefore, the operation, therefore, there are a large number of technicians, engineers and workers of the Red Army.

                      In the tank weapons, we also have a huge army, we have a huge aviation, where we also have engineers, technicians, pilots. To date, having such a large and highly industrialized, highly mechanized army, we already have significant, large cadres of the workers 'and peasants' Red Army. We now have a huge staff of 206 thousand people in command.
                      To date, the army is armed force loyal to the party and state.
                      NOBODY objected: neither Stalin, no one ... belay ...
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Learn to read first! fool

                      And again, bravo! good You have amazingly convincing arguments! lol
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      And what is the statement here? :))) WE READ THE SCIENTIFIC ACKNOWLEDGMENTS!

                      Yeah, and the TASS message was born from "AIR". They tell you that EVERYONE KNEW and there was no secret that the troops were HELD from the Bapkan to us (see TASS), but it was ESTIMATED that it was stupid.
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Olgovich ... Your calculations on logistics are even more crazy than anything else.

                      ONCE AGAIN fact to you: with fights. in FIVE days, the Germans traveled 350 km, 70km / day.
                      When you memorize it, then perhaps No. , about the speed of their movement WITHOUT fighting across Poland to our borders on the eve of the war by the same formations.
                      Good luck in your studies!
                      1. 0
                        2 November 2019 11: 31
                        I read the comment .. And why am I, Olgovich, angry with you? :))) You need to feel sorry for, not resent you :)
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Although, there is little hope that you are no longer broadcasting about the "unmobilized" 7 million Wehrmacht

                        Olgovich, the Wehrmacht in 1941 was completely mobilized, unlike the Red Army. I don’t know how else this can be written so that it comes to you :)))) And yes, its number actually amounted to about 7 million, but of these, only about 3,5 million ground forces were located on the border with the USSR, including about 2,5 million in the army.
                        The USSR, with the planned number of wartime forces of 8,6 million people, had active troops in the border districts of the order of 1,8 million.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        MTF for ALL reasons and reasons.

                        We read how the Red Army distinguished itself in Finland, we read the documents of the host army Tymoshenko. And everything becomes clear.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        When do you speak to the People's Commissar of Defense of the USSR Voroshilov, 37 r.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        NOBODY objected: neither Stalin, no one ...

                        Olgovich, you will learn to somehow distinguish agitation for the population from the real state of affairs. That's what Voroshilov wrote in 1938 - even before the Finnish
                        top, senior and middle commanders, commissars and staff workers are not yet an example for troops in the ability to own weapons. The junior commanders are also not trained in this matter and therefore cannot properly train soldiers.

                        Khalkhin Gol
                        The combat training of the troops, staffs and commanding officers of the front turned out to be unacceptably low. The military units were pulled out and not combat-ready; supply of military units is not organized. ... The troops came to the border on combat alert completely unprepared. The untouchable stock of weapons and other military equipment was not pre-scheduled and prepared for handing over to units, which caused a number of egregious outrages throughout the entire period of hostilities. The chiefs of the front and the commanders of the units did not know what, where and in what condition weapons, ammunition and other military equipment were available. In many cases, whole artillery batteries ended up at the front without shells, spare barrels for machine guns were not fitted in advance, rifles were issued unshooted, and many soldiers and even one of the rifle divisions of the 32 division arrived at the front without rifles and gas masks. Despite the huge stocks of clothing, many fighters were sent to battle in completely worn shoes, half-barefoot, a large number of Red Army soldiers were without overcoats. The commanders and staffs lacked maps of the war zone. c) All types of troops, especially infantry, found themselves unable to act on the battlefield, maneuver, combine movement and fire, apply to the terrain ...

                        And Stalin knew that very well. As well as the fact that this case is not at all some special for the Red Army. Excerpts from the order of the People's Commissar of Defense of the USSR N 120 from 16 on May 1940. (based on the Finnish war)
                        ... The infantry entered the war the least prepared of all the military branches: it did not know how to engage in close combat, in trenches, did not know how to use the results of artillery fire and provide its offensive with machine guns, mortars, battalion and regimental artillery ... .. Meets modern combat requirements. The commanders did not command their units, did not hold tightly in the hands of subordinates, lost in the total mass of soldiers. The authority of the command staff in the middle and junior level is low. Demanding staff is low. Commanders were sometimes criminally tolerant of discipline violations, the bickering of subordinates, and sometimes even direct non-execution of orders.

                        Moreover
                        "... MILITARY TRAINING OF TROOPS
                        1) The low training of the middle command staff in the company link is a platoon and the especially weak training of the junior command staff.
                        4) The extremely weak training of the combat arms on the battlefield: the infantry cannot cling to and break away from the fire shaft, the artillery can not support the tanks, the aviation can not interact with the ground troops.
                        5) The troops are not trained in skiing.
                        7) The troops have not worked out fire control.
                        8) The troops are not trained in attacking fortified areas, building and overcoming barriers and forcing rivers ”

                        It’s better not to recall the headquarters, however, you can read the order of the People’s Commissar of Defense of the USSR N 0104 from 19 on July 1939.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        You do not understand the Russian language, alas. ONCE AGAIN: The act implied that it MUST BE done under Voroshilov

                        Let's clarify - with the funding that the Red Army had, neither Voroshilov nor Napoleon would have done ANYTHING. Yes, the Red Army could have been prepared somewhat better than in reality. Good - you can’t.
                        The Germans prepared for war in the best way, much more thoughtful than we — they, too, had to hastily expand their army in a few years, although the reasons were different - not monetary, but the terms of international treaties. But at the same time, the Germans initially thought out the possibilities of expansion and did not spare money for their troops. Their hundred thousandth contingent with which they started was, in fact, an army of officers and junior commanders. But what is the result of all this? Anschluss of Austria - mobile divisions scattered along the roads. The occupation of the Rhine region - several regiments were lost, so I had to look for them with the involvement of the local police ...
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        they certainly mean NOTHING, which is why they cut like butter. fronts 41-42 years and created unprecedented boilers in History. This is all infantry.

                        You will be surprised, but it is so :)))
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Yeah, and the TASS message was born from "AIR". They tell you that EVERYONE KNEW and there was no secret that the troops were HELD from the bapkan to us

                        Olgovich, I reveal a military secret - the transfer of German troops in an amount excluding the success of our frontier cover army was carried out in the spring of 1941. It was then approximately opened. After that, we could only convince the Germans that we did not think to violate the non-aggression pact and the British attempts to persuade us to do something else did not make sense. Which, in fact, did the TASS statement you mentioned from June 13 :))) It was too late to react with military preparations
                      2. 0
                        2 November 2019 11: 39
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        ONCE AGAIN fact to you: with fights. in FIVE days the Germans traveled 350 km, by 70km / day.
                        When you memorize it, you may realize no, about the speed of their movement WITHOUT fighting across Poland to our borders

                        Olgovich, when ... no, never :)))))
                        In general, I explain on the fingers. In battles, you can really go both 500 km and 700 km at a speed of 70 and even 100 km per day. But here's the misfortune - after such marches, troops repeatedly lose their combat effectiveness and the ability to conduct offensive operations. After that, they need time, measured in weeks, to repair rolling stock, transport the rear, replenish fuel supplies, and more. That is why in WWII there were very often respites between separate operations.
                        Moreover, such rates can be maintained only by mechanized connections. Infantry, non-motorized formations (of which the Germans had the majority) are capable of moving at speeds of the order of 20 km per day.
                        And in order to prepare the invasion, it is necessary not only to replenish supplies to the state - it is necessary to accumulate much larger reserves at the border.
                        That is why the Germans concentrated troops on the border of the USSR using exclusively railway transport. This is a historical fact, Olgovich :))))
                      3. +2
                        3 November 2019 10: 34
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Olgovich, when ... no, never :)))))
                        In general, I explain on the fingers. In battles, you can really go through 500 km and 700 km at a speed of 70 and even 100 km per day.

                        1. Here, dear Andrey, this is the essence: it was IMPOSSIBLE mobilized the German army is considered a threat on the sole ground that it is not 300 meters from the border, but 300 km ..

                        This is NOTHING for fast and covert transport in conditions of non-war and a developed network of entire railways ready for it units.

                        Therefore, our ALREADY mobilized combat ready army, ready to sudden appearance enemy masses.


                        2. The TASS report speaks of the KNOWLEDGE of troop transfer from the Balkans to our borders, but instead of Directive 1 of June 13, it was ... this Message .... And Deere 1 came out when it was already. practically not needed .....
                      4. +2
                        2 November 2019 12: 20
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I read the comment .. And why am I, Olgovich, angry with you? :))) You need to feel sorry for, not resent you :)

                        lol I don’t even put a minus to you .....
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Olgovich, Wehrmacht in 1941 g was completely mobilized unlike the Red Army.

                        Dear namesake, I am glad that it finally came to you and you are no longer talking about future Mobilization for Germany:
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        USSR due to its large areas and relatively weak transport network lost Germany in mobilization for about 3-4 weeks. From which it obviously followed that Germany, having begun general mobilization;in one day with the USSR, it will be ahead of the Country of Soviets by almost a month in deployment. And from this, in turn, it followed that deciding to start a war with the USSR, Germany automatically receives a strategic initiative

                        So MOBILIZED Germany stands on our border. But this, in contradiction with YOUR postulate:
                        ) After the WWII, all countries knew that the war does not begin when the guns rattle, but when the likely enemy begins general mobilization;
                        It did not become an occasion for the leadership of the USSR to consider this a war, or even, at least in response, to carry out their SUBSTANTIATED, OWN mobilization or to bring the army into combat readiness.
                        Which was the BIGGEST miscalculation
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        We read how the Red Army distinguished itself in Finland, we read the documents of the host army Tymoshenko. And everything becomes clear.

                        Nothing is clear: the Wehrmacht 40 g is not the Wehrmacht 41 g with the resources of France, Belgium, etc. and its BEST parts are in the West. Fulfill your obligations under the Covenant with France of 1935 and repeat 1914, not 1941
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Olgovich, you will learn to somehow distinguish agitation for the population from the real state of affairs. That's what Voroshilov wrote in 1938 - even before the Finnish
                        top, senior and middle commanders, commissars and staff workers are not yet an example for troops in the ability to own weapons. The junior commanders are also not trained in this matter and therefore cannot properly train soldiers.

                        Agitation in front of the Central Committee and ... Stalin ?! belay Are you joking?
                        The same Voroshilov said that there are EXCELLENT parts and a lot of oath-assured then that by 1939 with the "arrow" everything will be all right.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Khalkhin Gol
                        The combat training of the troops, staffs and commanding officers of the front turned out to be unacceptably low. The military units were pulled out and not combat-ready; supply of military units is not organized

                        And the reason for this is-forget what he said? Betrayal Blucher associates. Removed and-corrected situation.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Excerpts from the order of the People's Commissar of Defense of the USSR N 120 of May 16, 1940. (based on the Finnish war)

                        That's it: the matter is NOT in small FINANCE (all material IS-equipment, and aircraft, and shells), but inability to command and teach. WHO prevented learning to BE ABLE ?!
                        The Germans generally FORBIDDEN it was and nothing, managed
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        But what is the result of all this? Anschluss of Austria - Mobile Divisions scattered along the roads. Occupation of the Rhine region - several regiments were lost, so I had to look for them with the involvement of the local police ..

                        And they had enough problems and there is nothing to say about their total "superiority" and the inability to adequately respond
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You will be surprised, but it is so :)))

                        I will not be surprised, for I know that it is NOT so. ALL boilers 41-to help you.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Olgovich, I reveal a military secret - the transfer of German troops in an amount excluding the success of our frontier army of cover was carried out in the spring of 1941. At that time, approximately it was opened. After that, we could only convince the Germans that we did not think to violate the non-aggression pact and the British attempts to persuade us to do something else did not make sense. Which, in fact, did the TASS statement you mentioned on June 13 :)))

                        Yeah, but until May we did not know that on the border there was a mobilized warring army that had already captured a dozen countries. The example of France, Greece, Yugolsavia - did not teach ANYTHING, it is easier to push your head into the sand - and, ABOS, "will not be touched." Yeah, didn't touch ...

                        I refer you to Halder, who wrote that ALL strategic bridges were captured WHOLE in the early days of the war, as were the roads along which German columns surged to Minsk, etc.
                        "Small funding" prevented them from being mined, blown up, and closed with structures?
                        No, small "brain". And so, in very many ways ...
                      5. -1
                        2 November 2019 16: 26
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Dear namesake, I am glad that this finally came to you and you no longer carry nonsense about future mobilization for Germany:

                        That is, you are not even able to understand the text of a short comment in which I wrote in Russian in white that the initial plan was to
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        In the case of the beginning of the mobilization of Germany, these forces had to deliver a preemptive strike on the territory of the enemy in order to frustrate their deployment and win the very 3-4 weeks of the term until the complete mobilization of the Red Army.

                        but at the same time
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        But this plan could work only if the USSR struck before the German army deployed on its border - otherwise it would completely lose its meaning, because the troops of the border districts could not confront the entire German army. Their numbers were enough for a limited strike in order to disrupt / hamper deployment, and not to defeat the Wehrmacht
                        Then, perhaps, you can recall that at the beginning of WWII, Germany fought first with Poland and then with France. That is, her army was ALREADY mobilized, but ours was not.

                        From the foregoing, it is obvious that the last opportunity to implement our cover plan was to strike during the redeployment of the main forces of the Wehrmacht to the Soviet border.
                        What could be incomprehensible here - I won’t even ask
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        So MOBILIZED Germany stands on our border. But this, in contradiction with YOUR postulate:
                        ) After the WWII, all countries knew that the war does not begin when the guns rattle, but when the probable enemy begins a general mobilization;

                        And what kind of contradiction can there be if Germany was in a state of war, first with Poland, and then with France and England? :))) Tell you this word "logic" - does it mean anything? :)
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        It did not become an occasion for the leadership of the USSR to consider this a war, or even, at least in response, to carry out their SUBSTANTIATED, OWN mobilization or to bring the army into combat readiness.

                        He died, and it was not a miscalculation. If Hitler was not really going to attack, we would thereby declare war on him, for which we were not ready. The litmus test, whether Hitler was planning to attack us or not, was the concentration of troops on the Soviet border. Because if intelligence had detected the start of the transfer, then in this case it was really necessary to declare a general mobilization and attack. If this were known, but Stalin did not order a war, then THIS would be a miscalculation. But intelligence overslept, as a result of which the border cover plan lost its meaning
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Nothing is clear

                        Nothing for you. Those who are at least a little bit aware of the real state of affairs - everything is clear
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        The Wehrmacht 40 r is not the Wehrmacht 41 r with the resources of France, Belgium, etc. and its BEST parts are in the West.

                        Yeah. Only now you cannot even understand how much the Red Army 1940 is weaker than the Red Army 1941. It seems to you that this is the same :))) At the same time, in 1941, the level of training of the troops was radically different from what we had in 1939, ., although it was still very far from German
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        That's it: the matter is NOT in small FINANCE (all material IS-equipment, and aircraft, and shells), but in the inability to command and teach. WHO prevented learning to BE ABLE ?!

                        Do you even understand how expensive it is to drive your sun in the tail and mane? Are you broadcasting from which planet at all? :))) The Red Army has just abandoned the MILITARY type divisions, where there were practically no cadre officers, they were trained at three-month courses, there was no money for more.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        I will not be surprised, for I know that it is NOT so. ALL boilers 41-to help you.

                        Olgovich, well, what else, 1941 to you to read lectures? :))))
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        I refer you to Halder, who wrote that ALL strategic bridges were captured WHOLE in the early days of the war

                        Quote, please :))))
                      6. +2
                        3 November 2019 08: 44
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        That is, you are not even able to understand the text of a short comment in which I wrote in white in Russian,

                        Apparently, the opposite: you are not able to clearly, briefly, in Russian, express your thoughts.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The initial plan was to
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        In the case of the beginning of the mobilization of Germany, these forces had to deliver a preemptive strike on the territory of the enemy in order to frustrate their deployment and win the very 3-4 weeks of the term until the complete mobilization of the Red Army.

                        From the foregoing, it is obvious that the last opportunity to implement our cover plan was to strike during the redeployment of the main forces of the Wehrmacht to the Soviet border.
                        What could be incomprehensible here - I won’t even ask

                        I will explain ONCE AGAIN:

                        1. Germany carried out mobilization, and the USSR, in response, no. Which completely contradicts yours :)
                        After the WWII, all countries knew that the war doesn’t start when the guns rattle, and when a likely adversary begins a general mobilization;

                        The war, in fact, is declared, and the USSR ... ignores it belay , "don't .... provoke"
                        2. The last opportunity was in 1940, when Germany fought with France to liberate Poland from the German invaders, that is, to do what they did in 1945-five years earlier.
                        3.Till June, the USSR could mobilize anything and any number: Hitler was NOT able physically hit: he was busy in the West and South.
                        4. He didn’t give a damn about the "reasons": he had already shown this ten times in Europe: he did not attack then. when there is a reason, and when ready to attack. And ostrich politics avoid reason- only worsened our situation.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And what kind of contradiction can there be if Germany was in a state of war, first with Poland, and then with France and England? :))) Tell you this word "logic" - does it mean anything? :)

                        1. History, do not remember? Russia in 14 g declared that it would mobilize against A-venrgii, but Germany declared war on .... Russia (see your same postulate).
                        2. I.e. huge mobilized army On our the border, directed, as it were, not towards us, but towards Poland (and this is exactly OUR side, by the way) and France --..... DOES NOT threaten us ?!
                        This is WHAT it was necessary to have in mind to forget Schlieffen’s plan and the experience of WWI? belay Ahhh, there was the Nonaggression Pact and FRIENDSHIP, for sure! Well then, of course, NOT attack! Yes
                        Recall Molotov:
                        not only pointless, but also to criminally wage a war to destroy Hitlerism "

                        In how, it turns out ....
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        He died, and this was not a miscalculation. If Hitler weren’t really going to attack, we would have declared war on him, to which we were not ready. The litmus test, whether Hitler was planning to attack us or not, was the concentration of troops on the Soviet border. Because if intelligence spotted But intelligence overslept

                        1. You do not want to understand that Hitler was NOT READY to attack ABSOLUTELY. He was Cramped in the forces of time and resources no less than us!

                        2. Make the fate of the country dependent on .... reports of intelligence agents ?! belay What's wrong with you?
                        There are BASIC principles for protecting the country: there is a huge mobilized army (even for 200-300 km - this is-ugh!) and the measures must be MIRROR! So it was, so it is and it will always be so! The invented "novelty2" led to the catastrophe of 41 AD.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Do you even understand how expensive it is to drive your sun in the tail and mane? What planet are you broadcasting from? :)))

                        Aha: it was cheaper to build thousands of tanks, frozen with useless crowbar in the first weeks of the war - as a result of this NEGOGENIA!
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Yeah. Only now you cannot even understand how much the Red Army of 1940 is weaker than the Red Army of 1941.

                        You are not able to understand how much has become stronger Germany for the same year: on the resources of FRANCE, BELGIUM, etc., etc.: nm is stronger than the USSR for the same year!
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Quote, please :))))

                        Halder's diary.

                        PS The war in June 41 was INEVITABLE (ALL enemies of Hitler had already been defeated on the continent, only the USSR remained) and attempts to delay it through diplomacy and "non-provocation" were narrow-minded and harmful to the country's security.
                      7. 0
                        2 November 2019 17: 30
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Let's clarify -

                        And nothing needs to be clarified - everything that you wrote really corresponds to the truth, and this is understood by those who have an idea of ​​military affairs.
                  2. 0
                    1 November 2019 11: 00
                    Yeah, and standing on the border of the USSR, MOBILIZED a long time ago, in fact, the German 7 million army that has been fighting for two years (the same 7 million as in March 1945, when all mobilizations were long gone)), is already considered "non-war", because the word "mobilization" did not sound to Hitler .... lol

                    In October 1940, 30 divisions on the border with the USSR (25 PD, 3 TD, 1 MD, 1 CD, 1 division arrived during the month), in December 1940 32 divisions (25/4/2/1, respectively), in February 1941 35 (27/6/1/1), in March 38, in May 52 (46/3/2/1, 29 divisions arrived during the month), in June 81 formations (60/12/8/1), to 22 June 129 divisions. Deliberately or not, you confuse the number of mobilized units in the country and at the border. There was no formal obstacle to keeping deployed even the entire Red Army (for example, to accept the 04/100 staff for all 198 rifle divisions and similar ones for the remaining formations). The problem is different - they can’t be placed in peacetime near the border, the troops will not be able to conduct combat training. German aircraft until the last moment were spread throughout the territory of the Reich, most of the formations arrived in May-June, just before the attack.
                    Another problem is the national economy, for the deployment of an army of people, horses, equipment must be removed, this greatly complicates everyday activities.
                    In contrast to 1940, when the hands were joyfully rubbed, when the imperialists beat each other. As a result, we stayed ONE against Germany.

                    The Moscow talks in 1939 perfectly demonstrated the attitude of France and England towards the USSR as a possible ally.
                    The Acceptance Act indicates almost ALL the causes of the defeat of the army in 41.

                    Indiscrimination of the spacecraft is also indicated?
                    1. 0
                      1 November 2019 11: 39
                      Quote: strannik1985

                      In October 1940, 30 divisions on the border with the USSR (25 PD, 3 TD, 1 MD, 1 CD, 1 division arrived during the month), in December 1940 32 divisions (25/4/2/1, respectively), in February 1941 35 (27/6/1/1), in March 38, in May 52 (46/3/2/1, 29 divisions arrived during the month), in June 81 formations (60/12/8/1), to 22 June 129 divisions. Intentionally or not you confuse the number of mobilized compounds in the country and at the border.

                      I have NO WORDS about this.
                      Quote: strannik1985
                      There was no formal obstacle to keeping deployed even the entire Red Army (for example, accept the 04/100 staff for all 198 rifle divisions and similar ones for the rest of the formations). The problem is different - they can’t be placed in peacetime in any wayfar from the border, troops will not be able to conduct combat training. German aircraft until the last moment were smeared throughout the Reich, most of the formations arrived in May-June, just before the attack.
                      Another problem isnational economy, to deploy an army of people, horses, equipment must be removed, it greatly complicates everyday activities.

                      Well, since such "unsolvable" problems, then, of course, it was necessary, like a lamb to be slaughtered, to humbly wait for an obvious catastrophe.

                      Then, however, it was necessary to solve MUCH more insoluble and difficult problems — with blood, territories, losses, and with the same deployment, and with horses and equipment with people.

                      Combat formations were deployed from the Balkans, after the defeat of Yugoslavia, read TASS on June 13.
                      Quote: strannik1985
                      The Moscow talks in 1939 perfectly demonstrated the attitude of France and England towards the USSR as a possible ally.

                      England and FR-THE SAME as 25 years ago and 100 years ago, but opposite them was a country with the Comintern, whose goal: “the union of workers of the whole world, striving for the establishment of Soviet power in all countries ". And NOT in a peaceful way ...

                      And Russia-COULD agree and thereby save itself from 41 g, but the USSR-could not.
                      Quote: strannik1985
                      Indiscrimination of the spacecraft is also indicated?

                      The condition of the troops is indicated. Very informative act ....
                      1. 0
                        1 November 2019 14: 29
                        I have NO WORDS about this

                        Have you written about the 7 millionth army?
                        Well, since such "unsolvable" problems, then, of course, it was necessary, like a lamb to be slaughtered, to humbly wait for an obvious catastrophe.

                        Other things being equal, it is better to attack (like Israel in 1967), a purely military aspect, without politics and economics. But this is equal, and if there is no analogue of the German motorized corps, an attack can lead to disaster, as happened on the Anglo-French front in May-June 1940. That is first you need to create an OMG front, which is what they did from the summer of 1940.
                        England and FR-THE SAME as 25 years ago and 100 years ago,

                        Well, yes, the same England and France, for the sake of momentary interests, surrendered Czechoslovakia and Poland. Why are they "different"?
                        The condition of the troops is indicated. Very informative act ....

                        You see what’s the matter, I'm afraid that even the preparation of the spacecraft in 1945 could not allow fighting on equal terms in a ratio of 1: 4
                      2. +1
                        2 November 2019 07: 58
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        Have you written about the 7 millionth army?

                        GERMAN army. You give deployment-soviet.
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        Other things being equal, it is better to attack (like Israel in 1967), a purely military aspect, without politics and economics. But this is equal, and if there is no analogue of the German motorized corps, an attack can lead to disaster, as happened on the Anglo-French front in May-June 1940. That is first you need to create an OMG front, which is what they did from the summer of 1940.

                        It was necessary to fulfill the obligation (1935) to France and hit Germany in the back in May 1940 - nothing hindered except the lack of a head.
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        Well, yes, the same England and France, for the sake of momentary interests, surrendered Czechoslovakia and Poland. Why are they "different"?

                        So I say that they were SUCH 100, 200 years ago, the same and remained in 1937, 1938,39 and Mr. vile, treacherous, etc.
                        But, to its advantage, Russia was ABLE to negotiate with them.
                      3. 0
                        2 November 2019 09: 35
                        GERMAN

                        No, the stages of the deployment of the German army are indicated.
                        Must

                        What's the point? France and England are not going to fight in any case, the Germans will carry out "Gelb", maybe not in full. As a result, the USSR may save the "allies", but it will substitute itself. It will not work to defeat the Germans with rifle corps and separate motorized divisions, either the AK (mot) from the Western Front will be transferred to organize a counterattack, or they will organize a counterattack after the end of the offensive operation, and then the Germans will break through the defenses, as they broke through the Bryansk Front, whose defense had been preparing for 2 months, or Voronezh front (3 months of preparation). We get the same long war with boilers and other things, only behind the back of the Reich will be France and England.
                        So

                        No, just before WWI they took Germany more seriously than in 1939-1940. That’s all the difference.
                      4. +1
                        2 November 2019 09: 49
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        No, the stages of the deployment of the German army are indicated.

                        It's to blame, just after the indicated number of deployed divisions you remembered the USSR, I was wrong hi
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        What's the point? In any case, France and England are not going to fight, the Germans will carry out "Gelb", maybe not in full. As a result, the USSR may save the "allies", but it will substitute itself.

                        So the USSR was not about to. But when they attack, you willy-nilly fight.
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        As a result, the USSR may save the "allies", but it will substitute itself. It will not work to crush the Germans with rifle corps and separate motorized divisions, or AK (mot) from the Western Front to organize a counterstrike redeployment

                        You are guessing, but there is already a former in history real-world PMV example: Germany, rushing between strong opponents and DOOMED to defeat.
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        No, just before WWI they took Germany more seriously than in 1939-1940. That’s all the difference.

                        No: they feared Germany 38 g much MORE than Germany 14 g.
                        Hence these wild panic surrenders of the Rhine region, Austria, Czechoslovakia, in an attempt to saturate the cannibal (in vain)
                      5. 0
                        2 November 2019 10: 11
                        So

                        By oneself? What's the point? Get the same, but with France and England behind Germany?
                        You

                        There was no "strange war" on the Western Front in 1914.
                        No

                        Yes, in 1935 it was enough to notify Hitler of mobilization in the event of the occupation of the Rhine region, in 1938 the combined forces of Czechoslovakia, Poland, France, England were much stronger than Germany. You don’t even have to fight by yourself, it’s enough to make Poland miss the spacecraft to defend Czechoslovakia. In 1939, likewise, it was only necessary to negotiate normally, and not to waste time. Uncles played politics, for which they paid.
                      6. +1
                        2 November 2019 11: 01
                        Quote: strannik1985

                        By oneself? What's the point? Get the same, but with France and England behind Germany?

                        to the back of Germany
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        There was no "strange war" on the Western Front in 1914.

                        It wasn’t, yes: because the Germans ADVISED in 1914, and NO in 1939. And when they arrived in 1940, it ended. All the same.
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        Yes, in 1935 it was enough to notify Hitler of mobilization in the event of the occupation of the Rhine region, in 1938 the combined forces of Czechoslovakia, Poland, France, England were much stronger than Germany.

                        Read the debate in the Franz Parliament in 1939 in September, when the question of declaring war on Germany was being decided: they did not want to fight and the Panic were afraid to fight and carry the rub and agreed to almost everything!
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        it is enough to force Poland to miss the spacecraft to protect Czechoslovakia. In 1939, likewise, it was only necessary to negotiate normally, and not to waste time. Uncles played politics, for which they paid.

                        They were afraid of the USSR and didn’t trust a little less than Hitler. The purpose of the Comintern in the USSR is the establishment of Soviets of power in the whole world.
                      7. 0
                        2 November 2019 13: 52
                        в

                        And what's the use of the Union? They are to him the same enemy as Germany.
                        в

                        That is, in 1914 they sat like a mouse under a broom, if they had such an opportunity.
                        Read

                        They do not have to fight on their own, at least not in full force. Even in 1939, it is possible to agree on the passage of the Red Army through Poland and Romania. You can provide military-technical assistance to Poland, and not ask to suspend mobilization.
                        the USSR

                        Besides desire, opportunities are needed, and they are such that the ally of the USSR was given to Germany, and the Union was wiped out.
                      8. +2
                        3 November 2019 07: 38
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        And what's the use of the Union? They are to him the same enemy as Germany.

                        1. They are enemies of the enemy.
                        2. They are absolutely not the same enemies as Germany — they did NOT want to fight with anyone (including the USSR), they did NOT want to (they don’t need to talk about boib. Baku only).
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        Ie they and in 1914 sat like a mouse under a broom, if they had such an opportunity

                        And I mean the same thing: the same thing happened in 14 and 41 years.
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        They do not have to fight on their own, at least not in full force. Even in 1939, it is possible to agree on the passage of the Red Army through Poland and Romania. You can provide military-technical assistance to Poland, and not ask to suspend mobilization.

                        Nobody would ever miss the Red Army anywhere, it’s obvious: the Union was not much less feared than Germany (remember the Comintern)
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        Besides desire, opportunities are needed, and they are such that the ally of the USSR was given to Germany, and the Union was wiped out.

                        And who is the ally of the USSR?
                      9. 0
                        3 November 2019 09: 38
                        [quote] They are [/ quote]
                        They don’t want to, so they turned a blind eye to the cessation of reparation payments, the creation of a normal, draft army in Germany, surrendered the Sudetenland, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland. The Germans at least fought for themselves, but they wanted to heat the heat with the wrong hands.
                        [quote] and / quote]
                        In total, there are more than a hundred divisions and developed economies, while the USSR and the Reich will butt up the level of training and development of their armies, and then they will hit Germany in the back or render military-technical assistance. In any case, their position towards the USSR is potentially hostile. Meaning to dig a hole for ourselves?
                        [quote] No one [/ quote]
                        A year or two later, you don’t have to let anyone go anywhere, the combined forces of France, Czechoslovakia, Poland are more than enough to pacify Germany.
                        [quote] ally [/ quote]
                        Czechoslovakia.
                      10. +2
                        3 November 2019 10: 43
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        They don’t want to, so they turned a blind eye to the cessation of reparation payments, the creation of a normal, draft army in Germany, surrendered the Sudetenland, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland. The Germans at least fought for themselves, but they wanted to heat the heat with the wrong hands.

                        So.
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        In total, there are more than a hundred divisions and developed economies, while the USSR and the Reich will butt up the level of training and development of their armies, and then they will hit Germany in the back or render military-technical assistance. In any case, their position towards the USSR is potentially hostile. Meaning ourselves pit dig?

                        To this "pit" (alliance) came inevitably and it saved millions of our lives. And they beat me in the same way from the East, when it was bad in the West, as in 1914. Only it happened not in 1940, but in 1945.
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        A year or two later, you don’t have to let anyone go anywhere, the combined forces of France, Czechoslovakia, Poland are more than enough to pacify Germany.

                        In theory .... But in practice, neither Franz, nor Chekhsl-were not going to fight or even suffer minor losses.
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        Czechoslovakia.

                        Well, what kind of ally is he if you fight even for yourself -Do NOT want to ?!
                      11. 0
                        4 November 2019 12: 38
                        To this "pit"

                        Not to this, in the real 1945, the armies of France and England did not pose a serious danger to the spacecraft, but the United States already received the maximum possible from the war, plus the strengthening of the French and British was contrary to American interests.
                        In theory...

                        Not so, in practice in 1939-1940 the French did not want to fight a la 1914, according to normal, they announced mobilization and the troops deployed.
                        Ну

                        Because it was instituted weaker than Germany, and the closest neighbors refused support, moreover, Poland, if it had such an opportunity, would have seized a larger piece of the Tieszyn region.
              7. +2
                30 October 2019 21: 58
                And how did the military comply with directive 2 and directive 1?
                1. +2
                  30 October 2019 22: 16
                  Why was the General Staff pulling with the withdrawal of aviation, although the decision was made?
                  Zhukov, or rather Govorov in military games, playing for the Germans, defeated the Red Army? Which of these conclusions were made by Gene. By headquarters?
                  1. +5
                    31 October 2019 01: 29
                    Quote: Pavel57
                    Which of these conclusions were made by Gene. By headquarters?

                    You are aware that Zhukov, who was appointed chief of the General Staff in January 1941, did not have a higher academic military education, and he (and the higher command staff) had to learn the ability to fight "in practice" - Halkin-Gol, and even Finland. What can we say about the rest ... What to do - we didn’t have the best, then, all the same, there were no such losses, incomparable with the tasks ... And if we take into account the conspiracy among senior officers, and behind this, quite understandable repression ... Our commanders caught up in the level of military literacy with the Germans only by the middle - the end of 1942. But already in 1943 they surpassed the "teachers".
                    1. -1
                      31 October 2019 11: 48
                      Quote: Igor Aviator
                      if we take into account the conspiracy among senior officers, and the completely understandable repressions that followed ...

                      Was there a conspiracy, or was it one of the "cases of pest doctors" fabricated in the bowels of the NKVD on orders from above? Tukhachevsky, Egorov, Blucher, Yakir, Uborevich are the tip of the iceberg. Marshal Vasilevsky wrote: "Without the thirty-seventh year, perhaps there would have been no war at all in the forty-first year. In the fact that Hitler decided to start a war in the forty-first year, an assessment of the degree of defeat of military personnel that took place in our country played an important role." ...
              8. +4
                30 October 2019 23: 55
                You chit write:
                I ask for an answer why he overslept Hitler’s attack in 1941.

                —- The power of Stalin, like any great man, included beliefs.
                -True, there are facts multiplied, and examined through a filter of beliefs, faith. Such was indeed the truth of Stalin. If you study the attitude and relations of Stalin with people whom he respected (rarely), then there will certainly be strong, even unshakable, convictions of these people in a solid draft. And the skill is finite (and it is situational: for example, Zhukov in war and peace are different values). Or, for example, you: Your beliefs do not allow your truth not to be answered in your questions (for the most part you have ready-made answers that you not only consider to be true, but also TRUE).
                —- I use this model, answering you: Stalin's beliefs filtered incoming information. Yes, he had a “blind spot” even on June 22 after the attack .... did not want to believe in the outbreak of war because of his convictions.
                -Whether this led to the death of your grandfathers and millions of others - it is UNCONDITALLY a QUESTION of FAITH, BELIEF. You have decided for yourself. AND UNCONDITIONALLY, THIS WITHOUT Doubt is UNFORMATED. Because the facts of beliefs can not be beaten, and faith does not care.
                —- To argue about Stalin, any truth, people with opposing beliefs, in order to come to an agreement it is possible only with good will to reject (at least temporarily) beliefs. And this is impossible without a philosophical approach. Not a victory in a dispute, but a consideration of facts and hypotheses should be primary.
                -I think that Stalin was a great man. He could not have done otherwise before the outbreak of war. AND HE OF COURSE NEVER SLEEP ANYTHING, WAS CONSIDERED IN THE QUESTION OF WAR CONSTANTLY !! If you need to acknowledge Stalin’s mistakes as a trump card in a dispute like “... he made an obvious mistake (even a fifth grader ...) when the war started, all the more he made mistakes with cleaning the Army .... collectivization .... blockade of Leningrad .... attacks of June 22 .. "- then you do not need this recognition. It’s not for me to judge the decisions of Stalin ... I don’t know what was on the scales. But recalling the reluctance of Golda Meir to recognize the Suez crossing and the beginning of the Doomsday War, I think that Stalin could have had at least one more reason.
                1. 0
                  31 October 2019 12: 21
                  Quote: Mikhail Drabkin
                  I think that Stalin was a great man. He could not have done otherwise before the outbreak of war. AND HE OF COURSE NEVER SLEEP ANYTHING, WAS CONSIDERED IN THE QUESTION OF WAR CONSTANTLY !!

                  I still cannot find the answer to the question why Stalin did not give the command on the evening of June 21 to introduce cover plans in four border districts with a short order, with the text "START TO IMPLEMENT THE COVERAGE PLAN OF 1941", but limited himself to the in my opinion, and led to the fact that the troops began to occupy positions under the fire of German artillery.
                  I still have not come across the testimonies of the participants in the meeting with Stalin that they personally reported on Tymoshenko and Zhukov, and what were their proposals for introducing cover plans, and who initiated the publication of the Directive, given that by 20.00 they already knew for sure that the war will begin in the coming hours.
                  I think that it is interesting for military specialists, first of all, to understand who made a strategic mistake in the matter of putting the districts on alert several hours before the attack, which led to the most serious consequences of the first days of the war. The question is not an idle one, if only because one understands who bears the historical responsibility for this, but not in order to settle accounts, but for the sake of truth.
                  1. +1
                    31 October 2019 15: 58
                    In fact, no bet actions in the evening of June 21 decided anything from the word completely
                    1. +1
                      31 October 2019 18: 57
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      In fact, no bet actions in the evening of June 21 decided anything from the word completely

                      Come on, the border guards at some outposts without the arrival of detached detachments from cover units until 10-12 hours on June 22 fought until they died completely. And if all the connections of the border districts had taken their positions according to the cover plan at least by 3.00, then the Germans would have gotten bogged down at the border from the first hours, and it is not known how their advance would have gone. The entrenched infantry is not so easy to knock out, even if the enemy had a numerical superiority, and the example of the Brest Fortress best showed how many troops can fight even in complete encirclement.
              9. +2
                31 October 2019 00: 43
                You chit write:
                I ask for an answer why he overslept Hitler’s attack in 1941.

                ---------
                —- The power of Stalin, like any great man, included beliefs.
                -True, there are facts multiplied, and examined through a filter of beliefs, faith. Such was indeed the truth of Stalin. If you study the attitude and relations of Stalin with people whom he respected (rarely), then there will certainly be strong, even unshakable, convictions of these people in a solid draft. And the skill is finite (and it is situational: for example, Zhukov in war and peace are different values). Or, for example, you: your beliefs do not allow your truth not to be answered in your questions (for the most part you have ready-made answers that you not only consider to be true, but also TRUE).
                —- I use this model, answering you: Stalin's beliefs filtered incoming information. Yes, he had a “blind spot” even on June 22 after the attack .... did not want to believe in the outbreak of war because of his convictions.
                —- Whether this led to the death of your grandfathers and millions of others is UNCONDITIONALLY a QUESTION of FAITH, BELIEF. You have decided for yourself. AND UNCONDITIONALLY, THIS WITHOUT Doubt is UNFORMATED. Because the facts of beliefs can not be beaten, and faith does not care.
                —- To argue about Stalin, any truth, people with opposing beliefs, in order to come to an agreement it is possible only with good will to reject (at least temporarily) beliefs. And this is impossible without a philosophical approach. Not a victory in a dispute, but a consideration of facts and hypotheses should be primary.
                —- I believe that Stalin was a great man. He could not have done otherwise before the outbreak of war. AND HE OF COURSE NEVER SLEEP ANYTHING, WAS CONSIDERED IN THE QUESTION OF WAR CONSTANTLY !! If you need to acknowledge Stalin’s mistakes as a trump card in a dispute like “... he made an obvious mistake (even a fifth grader ...) when the war started, all the more he made mistakes with cleaning the Army .... collectivization .... blockade of Leningrad .... attacks of June 22 .. "- then you do not need this recognition. It’s not for me to judge the decisions of Stalin ... I don’t know what was on the scales. But recalling the reluctance of Golda Meir to recognize the Suez crossing and the beginning of the Doomsday War, I think that Stalin could have had at least one more reason.
              10. +3
                31 October 2019 08: 42
                For 20 years, Khoja Nasreddin donated to teach how to speak, but you have not mastered the history of the Second World War. Your knowledge at the secondary level that it has been studied there for 4 years is not clear. At least read something besides Rezun
              11. +2
                31 October 2019 09: 14
                If you had studied history for at least six months, you would not have lied about the fact that the Red Army had more strength than the German army.
              12. +1
                31 October 2019 11: 34
                Quote: Chit
                I am not interested in what Stalin was counting on and what Stalin was counting on. I am interested in the fact of the catastrophic defeat of the Red Army in June.


                It. right?
                So I’ll tell you that we suddenly "overslept" the beginning of the war and even an unsuccessful operational formation of the first strategic echelon (the "merit" of the General Staff, and Meretskov was then correctly pressed) has minor meaning (although the military commanders in the memoirs turned arrows on Stalin, hiding their schools, based on surprise).

                And the failed combat training of the troops (the fault is exclusively military, and here Stalin is not by any means. I say this as a professional). just the main reason for all our failures.
                40% of all prisoners are taught for the first six months, and the Moscow battle is confirmed by the appearance of troops with at least four months of training (Siberian divisions).
              13. -3
                31 October 2019 13: 11
                Quote: Chit
                Why did Stalin not allow this simple, elementary thought? Understandable for any mortal?


                Do not worry.
                The Stalinists almost exclusively come running and clicking on the Lizoblyud articles about Stalin - hence the rating and a lot of minuses to those who hold a different opinion.
                It is useless to convince them of the opposite of their conviction, their world is simple to mention - there is the great Stalin and circumstances harmful to him. All who disagree with this are traitors in their opinion.
            2. +4
              30 October 2019 18: 38
              I do not quite agree. The main reason is the lack of diplomatic claims on the part of Germany, they did not know the direction of the main strikes, there was no mobilization, and yes they slept through the accumulation of troops after their revaluation in 1940, and intelligence data were contradictory. And since the Supreme was responsible for everything, they are trying to blame everything on him, despite the fact that he made great efforts to defeat the enemy. There were mistakes, but the Supreme is not worth blaming for the outbreak of the war.
              1. +4
                30 October 2019 21: 16
                Quote: Siberia
                did not know the direction of the main blows

                And they are generally quite difficult to guess. The French were mistaken, the British were constantly mistaken, the Americans ... there were no comments at all.
                Quote: Siberia
                mobilization was not carried out

                It was PRINCIPLE impossible to conduct. This is a declaration of war
                1. -3
                  30 October 2019 21: 46
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  they are generally quite difficult to guess

                  Very easy. If it's your punch.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Americans ... there are no comments at all.

                  Hmm, what about the Americans? When did Eisenhower lose at least one division in the boiler? When was the last time large forces flew into the boiler, I don’t know, Konev? But the US Army and the Red Army of the first years of the war - they are in many respects similar, unfortunately.
            3. +1
              30 October 2019 22: 31
              In short, this was the case. Stalin believed that Hitler would attack before 1942. - This is the Khrushchev version.
              Partly accurate about intelligence, the same Sorge gave 3 dates for the start of the war.
            4. +2
              31 October 2019 09: 22
              This is not so simple and at the same time not so difficult, a lot of German troops stood at the border all spring, but there were infantry divisions, their presence in itself is not a reason to announce mobilization, or even more so to beat preventively, gaining the status of an aggressor, and, possibly , The United States as an enemy. It's just that in the event of war, the infantry will not advance anywhere quickly. The USSR did not know when the mobile connections would be deployed, and they appeared only in June, and then both diplomatic and military reactions followed. At the same time, it is obvious that there could be no talk of any "hitting the enemy on its territory", if the Germans did not tupan, then a favorable course of the war for the USSR would be a retreat of 100-200 km until a mob came up. reserves. But, apparently, the fighting efficiency of the Red Army was overestimated, and Pavlov surrendered everything in the BSSR, and this hole had to be plugged at the expense of other directions.
              1. 0
                31 October 2019 17: 22
                Quote: EvilLion
                the mass of German troops stood at the border all spring

                The Germans seemed to claim that they were saving troops from the British bombing
            5. 0
              31 October 2019 12: 09
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Alas, intelligence overslept mass transfer of troops from France to the Soviet-German border, and after that the defeat in the border battle was predetermined.

              which "slept", which "France"?
              TASS message

              [13.06.1941]
              recent transfer of German troops, freed from operations in the BalkansIn eastern and northeastern regions of Germany connected, presumably, with other motives that have no relation to Soviet-German relations

              all all knew. but ordered - DO NOT believe this (same TASS):
              Germany began to concentrate its troops near the borders of the USSR with the aim of attacking the USSR;
            6. +1
              31 October 2019 13: 04
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Of course, he, as the leader of the country, is responsible for everything, but ... Still, there is no direct fault.


              I agree with everything except the final conclusion - the head of the country is personally responsible for the failure of the personnel policy
            7. -1
              31 October 2019 16: 53
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Of course, he, as the leader of the country, is responsible for everything, but ... Still, there is no direct fault.

              We must also remember how many times intelligence set a date for the outbreak of war ...
              1. 0
                1 November 2019 13: 03
                And in this, the scouts were like weather forecasters - every time a new date.
                And this is only in the reports that the Germans will attack the USSR.
                At the same time, reports "the Germans will attack Turkey", "the Germans will start the Sea Lion."
                And there are the same dates
          3. +8
            31 October 2019 00: 44
            Quote: Chit
            But there could be fewer of them ...

            I don’t understand what you are trying to achieve? Get everyone to recognize that "Stalin is bad" - you will not wait! According to the results of his ruling the country, his descendants should erect monuments at every intersection! Perhaps, while mocking Stalin, you want to show everyone how smart you are, that YOU are underestimated - at least, stupid and unworthy, at least in the memory of your grandfathers, they went on the attack with the name of Stalin, and, sincerely! In general, (on my own behalf) I will say - it is not good to try to assert yourself, blaming your ancestors - they cannot object or answer! And there is such a VERY NEGAT trait for some - very strong in hindsight Yes And, yes - well, if such a "smart" - so come on, forward, in the sense - back, tell Joseph Vissarionovich what he needed (was) to do! It is very easy to give assessments to ancestors, knowing the result, and owning, from printed publications, versatile information, analyzing it in a serene cabinet silence, caressing your ass in an easy chair! Although, even in these conditions, you failed! So the rush from your "mental conclusions" by incompetence, one-sided presentation of "as if facts"! How do you know what Stalin really thought? He just assumed that Germany MUST attack the USSR, only a little later, in 1942, hoping by this time to reorganize (to grow the missing and badly needed command cadres of the lower and middle command echelons, which were CATASTROPHICALLY lacking), carry out (complete) the rearmament of the army, aviation and navy, build the missing heavy machinery and medium-sized machine building plants in the Trans-Urals ... did not make it - including completing the defense line. By the way, Hitler himself, in fact, planned to attack Great Britain first, but he "did not grow together" and the plans were changed.
            1. 0
              31 October 2019 17: 24
              Quote: Igor Aviator
              including the completion of the defense line

              And why then destroy the old ur? Concentrate troops on the Old Border and enough time to take URA
              1. 0
                1 November 2019 13: 10
                So they were not destroyed. Khrushchev launched a bike that blew up.
                This means that all border guards, specialists (doctors, builders, teachers, administration, workers) sent to new lands (Baltic States, Western Ukraine and Belarus, Bukovina, Bessarabia) are immediately attributed to losses. At the same time, we write off the equipment that was placed there.
                And the Germans, not meeting resistance, joyfully met by local residents (here and there appear new free and independent republics) in a couple of days reach the old border.
                Isaev’s 10 myths about WWII more
          4. 0
            31 October 2019 08: 12
            Given that in WWI to the east. the Germans had a front 30 percent of all forces and the army of the Republic of Ingushetia could not even cope with this, then your hitting is only perplexing.
            1. -5
              31 October 2019 08: 59
              Quote: EvilLion
              your run over is only perplexing.

              That is yes. Want to tell how Comrade Stalin fought with the Soviet people on the side of the Germans, but then gr. Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov, the owner of the Russian land, and no longer succeeds.
          5. 0
            31 October 2019 12: 58
            Quote: Chit
            And they have the right to ask a question

            Good question. For him, here people have directed you to cons.
          6. +1
            31 October 2019 16: 22
            Quote: Chit
            But what happens if Hitler attacks first?

            and Stalin did not have a time machine to know this. Why do you think that the army is taken "by the dictates of the pike." The Germans were a serious force and the defeat of France proved this. Yes, and in the First World War the Germans successfully gave luli to everyone. We can say that German military thought was at the peak of its peak. It took us 3 years to get to the peak.
          7. +2
            31 October 2019 23: 02
            Quote: Chit
            And they have the right to ask the question: how did it happen that the great leader and best friend of the military and all the others miscalculated so much with the outbreak of war?

            how could attack Russia fighting with England? how could one attack the USSR without winter weapon grease, sheepskin coats? And then what fatty piece was Turkey? went on donkeys! And close to oil! This is not Stalin miscalculated, this is Hitler or the victim of the work of British intelligence. No wonder Canaris was hanged precisely for cooperation with the British.
        2. +14
          30 October 2019 17: 44
          Quote: AS Ivanov.
          Stalin, in the first place, was a Patriot.

          The main thing I.V. Stalin was a statesman.
          1. +2
            30 October 2019 20: 00
            It is the same. A person who thinks about the state is a patriot.
            1. -4
              30 October 2019 22: 03
              Quote: AS Ivanov.
              A person who thinks about the state is a patriot.

              Uh, no.
              1. 0
                30 October 2019 22: 55
                Quote: tesser
                Uh, no.

                Sir, you turn out to be a liberal.
                1. -2
                  30 October 2019 23: 00
                  Quote: tihonmarine
                  Sir, and you turn out to be a liberal

                  )))
                  No longer.
                  1. 0
                    30 October 2019 23: 25
                    Quote: tesser
                    No longer.

                    Sorry, that means we have different ideals and views.
                    1. -3
                      31 October 2019 00: 42
                      Quote: tihonmarine
                      Sorry, that means we have different ideals and views.

                      Malenkov: Stalin destroyed the status quo and created a new one. He was a liberal
                      Beria: Radical
                      Malenkov: Radical

                      (c) The death of Stalin.

                      Ideals and views are likely to be discussed in more detail, rather than by labels.
          2. -12
            30 October 2019 22: 09
            This is very controversial. All forum users for some reason lose sight of the fact that he was a REVOLUTIONARY to the marrow of bones and his main goal in life was the WORLD REVOLUTION !!! Industrialization was done in the name of the world revolution, because Stalin was well aware that without advanced weapons it would be impossible to achieve the victory of the MP. The USSR was his tool in achieving the goals of the MR.
            1. +11
              30 October 2019 22: 32
              All forum users for some reason lose sight of the fact that he was a REVOLUTIONARY to the bone marrow and his main goal in life was the WORLD REVOLUTION

              You confuse it with Trotsky.
              1. -9
                30 October 2019 22: 42
                I do not confuse. Stalin simply turned out to be smarter in this matter. Stalin and Trotsky had one goal, Mr. But the vision of implementation paths is different.
                1. 0
                  30 October 2019 23: 01
                  Quote: Perdit monocle capra
                  Stalin and Trotsky had one goal,

                  But Kristobal Hosevich managed earlier
            2. +5
              30 October 2019 22: 56
              Quote: Perdit monocle capra
              All forum users for some reason lose sight of the fact that he was a REVOLUTIONARY to the marrow of bones and his main goal in life was the WORLD REVOLUTION !!!

              And who drove such nonsense into your head, my dear?
        3. +1
          30 October 2019 20: 10
          Yes, a patriot of the socialist fatherland. Monarchist-bourgeois, he helped to destroy.
          1. -5
            30 October 2019 20: 35
            In fact, Stalin was a monarch. Socialist.
      3. +12
        30 October 2019 16: 57
        Gregory, I remember that in the 70-80s, portraits of Stalin were secretly banned. People printed photos of Joseph Vissarionovich, put on the windshields of cars ..
      4. -2
        1 November 2019 11: 27
        To the question “In your opinion, did Stalin do more good or bad for the country?” the answers were: 54% - more good; 43% - more bad; 3% - found it difficult to answer.


        So now we have the output that any nonentity as much as 43% was born .. ((
      5. 0
        1 November 2019 19: 16
        absolute accuracy
    2. +30
      30 October 2019 15: 19
      Great was a HUMAN! The fact is 100%.
      1. +25
        30 October 2019 15: 31
        Quote: Egorovich
        Great was a HUMAN! The fact is 100%.

        And the Authority, despite the opinion of the People, is afraid to return Volgograd, its glorious and proud name - STALINGRAD! Name of the City - Symbol of Our Victory in the Second World War! soldier
        Stalingrad - Knows the Whole World !!!
        1. +16
          30 October 2019 16: 03
          The burden of power in general is not only Stalin, but the whole Soviet period is afraid. Because if you compare their deeds with the deeds of Stalin, then ... they look not even pale, but in any way.
          1. +6
            30 October 2019 16: 23
            Although I hate Churchill, he knew what he was talking about:
            Russia was very lucky that when it was agonized, it was led by such a tough military leader. This is an outstanding personality, suitable for harsh times. A man is inexhaustibly bold, domineering, direct in actions and even rude in his statements ... However, he retained a sense of humor, which is very important for all people and nations, and especially for big people and great nations. Stalin also impressed me with his cold-blooded wisdom, in the complete absence of any illusions. I hope that made him believe that we will be faithful and reliable comrades in this war, but this, in the end, is proved by deeds, not words.
          2. +1
            31 October 2019 07: 04
            It is not only the comparison that is to blame, the social and political system that Stalin built - an antagonist to the modern
        2. +7
          30 October 2019 16: 07
          That's right. Two hundred days of valor and heroism. And it turns out that the Great Battle of Stalingrad is, but there is no such city. And it seems that you are right - they are afraid.
          1. +10
            30 October 2019 17: 01
            Veterans turned to VVPutin with a request to return the name of Stalin to the Hero City .. In response, as always, an indefinite mumble.
          2. -8
            30 October 2019 18: 40
            Quote: Van 16
            And it turns out that the Great Battle of Stalingrad is, but there is no such city.

            or maybe just because the battle was on the Volga, from which it is very far from the border? request
      2. +14
        30 October 2019 15: 42
        And he was able to select sensible people in the environment!
        P.S. I remember when I was still in October school for some performance as a reward I was presented with a portrait of Stalin, such as in the first photo for the article, only in black and white. Grandfather when he saw it was already crying, then he hung it at the head of the bed, so he hung in his place instead of an icon.
        Really GREAT HUMAN !!!
        1. -14
          30 October 2019 17: 56
          Quote: Alexander Suvorov
          And he was able to select sensible people in the environment!

          Khrushchev and Company,whether? Themselves, sensible (entourage), and then nailed, and thrown out of the mausoleum, some worn slippers and remained, with the tacit approval of this very people.
        2. -6
          30 October 2019 18: 12
          Quote: Alexander Suvorov
          I remember at school when I was still October, for some performance as a reward I was presented with a portrait of Stalin

          Suvorov, do not compose fairy tales, the name of Stalin was banned, under developed socialism, Georgians could afford to stick a small photo on the windshield of a car, nothing more. All attempts to rehabilitate the name of Stalin were harshly suppressed by the very communist authorities.
          I remember at school, October ....... , don't go into a trance, calm down.
          1. +7
            30 October 2019 18: 37
            bober1982 (vladimir)
            Suvorov, do not compose fairy tales, the name of Stalin was banned, under developed socialism
            In your parallel universe, probably yes, in my socialist childhood it was exactly as I told you. It makes no sense to me to invent this story, moreover, unlike you, I really respect my ancestors, especially my grandfather, so as to dirty the memory of him with a lie.
            So close your not-so-clean mouth.
            1. -12
              30 October 2019 18: 44
              Quote: Alexander Suvorov
              in my socialist childhood

              Suvorov, childhood cannot be socialist, so to say - just outright stupidity.
          2. +5
            30 October 2019 20: 37
            Under developed socialism, here in Novgorod, there were plenty of trucks with a portrait of Stalin on the front. Yes, this was not welcomed, but there was no direct ban either.
        3. -19
          30 October 2019 18: 31
          Quote: Alexander Suvorov
          GREAT HUMAN !!!

          I would say - outstanding. But the article is full of lies.
          Stalin contributed to the cultural development of the people, the spread of mass physical education, and not defective professional sports (where professional athletes become millionaires, and the masses spend time drinking beer and TVs, overgrown with fat and sores).
          Yes, they taught me to read and write, but the cultural development was somehow not very good. Yesterday's peasant and worker taught what culture should be. The result: Chaliapin, Rachmaninov and many others left. Meyerhold - shot; Gumilyov - shot; Akhmatova - repressed, her son imprisoned; Zoshchenko - repressed; Prokofiev, Shostakovich - repressed. The few cultural figures who remained at large were also not sweet: the fate of Yesenin and Mayakovsky is well known. Only Sholokhov remained, before A. Tolstoy, slipping into the same tsyts-realism: remember the novel "Bread" with a description of Stalin's exploits in the defense of Tsaritsyn? What culture has evolved? Cinema - Mr. Pyriev's sweet gum with popular prints, fat pigs and rich collective farmers, who in fact were not even in sight: "Pig and Shepherd", "Kuban Cossacks" ...
          Sport, say? Lies. Under Stalin, most of the population lived in the countryside, and there didn’t even smell of sports. As for sports, I asked my parents: in the prewar years, there was always so much household chores that practically no one had the opportunity to go in for sports: gardens (yes, the townspeople too), fuel storage, standing in line forever, washing, cooking, eating everything time - and poverty.
          He himself was an intelligent man and strove to ensure that the whole country was reasonable. Hence, such attention to science and education.
          Yeah, the mere defeat of biological science shows how Stalin worried about science. Until now, we can’t come to our senses. The same was prepared in physics - but the need for an atomic bomb saved many physicists. And I remember how, until the end of the sixties, party comrades smelled of idealism in chemical science - and before that they brought many to the grave. For idealism. Then, however, they began to climb less into science, but, in truth, there was nothing to mow, there were no major scientists in the USSR.
          There, in the article, there is still a lot of pathos lies. The author sings straight to Hosanna Stalin.
          I think that the current longing for Stalin is a consequence of the obvious anti-social policy of our state, a consequence of the beginning of stagnation. But it should be understood: the monstrous cruelty of the Stalinist terror, the monstrous lack of freedom (one cannot doubt the correctness of the party, one cannot express an opinion different from the official one - otherwise they will be imprisoned, one cannot listen to the music that is not approved by the instructor from the district committee, one cannot read what is not approved by "Gavlitt ", to go abroad, you can't even talk about the well-known - as, for example, it was forbidden to mention the shooting in Novocherkassk) hardly anyone can really be attracted now. Someone wants such a life for themselves?
          And now - fly on, minus ...
          1. +11
            30 October 2019 20: 21
            astepanov, foam from the mouth - wipe it off!
            The uprising of workers in Novocherkassk took place on June 1--2, 1962, that is, many years after the death of Joseph Vissarionovich. During the so-called Khrushchev thaw. Seven participants in the uprising were shot, 7 received from 105 to 10 years maximum security colonies, 15 became disabled, 13 received gunshot wounds. Thaw is good, it’s liberalization, right?
            The reason for the uprising under the slogan "Khrushchev - for meat!" were mediocre innovations in agriculture that destroyed the Stalinist cooperatives, individual farmers and replaced with an insignificant monetary rate the payment of a workday previously paid for with products, which sharply reduced the interest of collective farmers in increasing production. And also large-scale assistance to the "fraternal" peoples of Africa and the Middle East. Donated dams, weapons, agricultural machinery, factories, factories ... - the very thing that cost the recently written off $ 20 billion. There was a shortage of food, even bread was lacking, the price of butter increased by a quarter, meat - by a third. It all reminds me of something, but in a mirror version ...
            Be precise in the argument.
            1. -11
              30 October 2019 20: 39
              Change your tone, venerable. I was not talking about the execution, but that it was strongly discouraged to talk about it. And don't lie: during the dispersal of the demonstration, 26 people were shot, 67 were injured. About Stalin's "payment in products" also do not need to hang on the ears: that is something all by hook or by crook tried to escape to the cities. Read about how much collective farmers earned in 1940 and how much they paid in taxes. The poorest Africans live many times richer than the collective farmers under Stalin.
              1. +3
                30 October 2019 20: 51
                I apologize, you are right, it’s not worth communicating. I meant those shot in court. And I took the information in the same place where you are - on the Internet. Apparently, the data is different. Sorry again. love
                1. -6
                  30 October 2019 21: 27
                  Forget it. But to the 26 shot during the dispersal you need to add the shot to the court - this is 33 people.
                  Notice this: how polarized everything is. Nobody listens to each other's arguments. Slogans - that's all. Stalin's destruction of the arts, science, mass arrests and executions - no one wants to hear about this. "But the order was state, anyhow who did not shoot people" I have met such pearls. But many of our troubles have legs growing from those times. Our biology, physics, chemistry could have been advanced - but they were burned out under Stalin, and the schools never revived. So we have the bastard Skolkovo and Rusnano. And the pendulum of sentiments swung in the other direction, towards nationalism, which already gives off fascism. For the sake of curiosity, I keep statistics - and it turns out that anti-immigrant sentiments are very strong - at the same time, they are not motivated and aggressive, anti-Semitism is monstrous, for statements like "the Jews have taken everything" they will make an insane amount of pluses,
              2. +9
                30 October 2019 21: 28
                Quote: astepanov
                I did not talk about the execution, but that it was strongly not recommended to talk about it. And do not lie: when dispersing a demonstration, 26 people were shot, 67 was wounded.

                Do not bother. You were clearly told that the execution of workers took place under Khrushchev, as a result of his mediocre actions, when people were actually robbed during the reform of the 61 year, and the price of the ruble more than halved.
                1. -6
                  30 October 2019 21: 42
                  Sir, did I say somewhere that the execution took place under Stalin? And, if it comes to that, then under Stalin before 1940 there were dozens of demonstrations (mostly peasant, but also factory ones), during which thousands were shot. Yandex is in your hands. However, you will still shout: "Hands off the saint!" Well, pray.
                  1. +5
                    30 October 2019 21: 48
                    Quote: astepanov
                    monstrous cruelty Stalinist terror, monstrous lack of freedom (one cannot doubt the correctness of the party, one cannot express an opinion different from the official one - otherwise they will be imprisoned, one cannot listen to the music that is not approved by an instructor from the district committee, one cannot read what is not approved by "Gavlitt", go for border, you can't even talk about the well-known - as, for example, it was forbidden to mention the shooting in Novocherkassk)

                    Quote: astepanov
                    Sir, did I say somewhere that the shooting occurred under Stalin?

                    At first. I am not you sir.
                    Quote: astepanov
                    "Hands off the saint!" Well, pray.

                    Secondly. Not a believer.
          2. +4
            30 October 2019 20: 39
            Quote: astepanov
            But it should be understood: the monstrous cruelty of the Stalinist terror, the monstrous lack of freedom (one cannot doubt the correctness of the party, one cannot express an opinion different from the official one - otherwise they will be jailed, one cannot listen to the music that is not approved by the instructor from the district committee, one cannot read what is not approved by "Gavlitt ", to go abroad, you can't even talk about the well-known - as, for example, it was forbidden to mention the shooting in Novocherkassk), hardly anyone can really be attracted now. Someone wants such a life for themselves?

            - Today is the opposite of the order of the Stalinist era and entailed a lot of processes starting on “de” (depopulation, deindustrialization, ..) - do you think this is not a consequence of great freedom?
            Quote: astepanov
            I think that the current yearning for Stalin is a consequence of the obvious antisocial policies of our state, a consequence of the stagnation that has begun

            - rightly so. Offer a "substitute" for Stalin's longing.
            Do you think that in Stalin's time there was no positive uniqueness?
            1. -2
              30 October 2019 21: 03
              Quote: Alexander Ra
              Today is the opposite of the order of the Stalinist era and entailed a host of processes that begin on the “de” (depopulation, deindustrialization, ..) - do you think this is not a consequence of great freedom?

              No, you may be confusing freedom and mess.
              Quote: Alexander Ra
              Offer a "substitute" for Stalin's longing.
              Recipes should be offered by specialists. But for starters - to plant a dozen or two thieves from Putin's entourage. Forcing (under the threat of a lifetime) to force the return of offshore capital - this is for everyone. Introduce a progressive taxation scale. It will not give much, but it will be fair. To tax paid medicine, to send funds to the state. Remove intermediary private structures from state-owned companies. Reduce mortgage rates by at least half.
              Quote: Alexander Ra
              Do you think that in Stalin's time there was no positive uniqueness?

              Of course it was. As at any time. The time of great construction projects, great hopes ... But many hopes did not come true .. I can not judge who is to blame. Is that the question? Here, the author of the article, lying and dancing, made God out of Stalin - and he got a slobbery pubis.
        4. -11
          30 October 2019 19: 11
          Quote: Alexander Suvorov
          And he was able to select sensible people in the environment!

          Oh yeah. For this I especially love Joseph Vissarionych.

          Politburo of the Central Committee of the CPSU (B.) 1934.
          Politburo members:
          Kosior - shot.
          Kirov - is killed.
          Ordzhonikidze - somehow died.
          Kuibyshev - somehow died.
          Kalinin - died himself
          Andreev - he died
          Molotov - he died
          Voroshilov - he died
          Kaganovich - did not die at all. He lived to see Yeltsin and realized that he had done so in vain.

          So far so good.

          Members for membership:
          Postyshev - shot.
          Petrovsky - practically an enemy of the people, was removed from all posts in the 39th, but was not arrested, Comrade Beria was overlooked.
          Chubar - shot.
          Mikoyan - did not live to Yeltsin, well done.
          Rudzutak - shot.

          What can I say. This is a dangerous job, a candidate for membership in the Politburo.
          1. +5
            30 October 2019 23: 50
            I would like to clarify something. About the era.
            From the 21st century we cannot see what happened in the 30s of the past. But the country lived in anticipation of war. And what fate was prepared for all our grandmothers, grandfathers and parents by the Western coalition, Rear Admiral Dudko showed well in the article "Will the Ministry of Defense Defend Itself" - here, in "Opinions", in its second chapter entitled "Intention or Dementia ".
            I read and, frankly, was horrified. I kind of knew, but - in such details? Hitler is a child in comparison with a bunch of Western politicians of that time.
            In general, since the beginning of the 20th century, we have been preparing the apocalypse, armageddon, we as a country, as a people, had to leave world history completely and forever.
            Become a fertilizer.
            At the cost of incredible sacrifices, the Bolsheviks managed to prevent our departure, and Stalin made the country great. But the fifth column ... My God! Have you forgotten that the Chechens rebelled and started a war in 1942? And our rotten intelligentsia? According to Plisetskaya, this very intelligentsia was ready to sing, dance, play theatrical performances and read poetry before Hitler ...
            But the bourgeois command staff of the Red Army? Have you forgotten how in time General Vlasov, who was not shot, went along with Hitler to destroy his homeland? And countless sorcerers of all bureaucratic levels, who, in order to imprison or shoot, were forced to announce as spies and enemies of the people - this was ideologically understood by the people. After all, that people would not believe that you can steal so much. A lot of things can be listed ...
            Yes, if there is nothing to make good out of, make it out of evil. Stalin did. He could. He opened the way for us through thorns to the stars, and with our eyes we all searched the earth in search of crooked, roundabout paths. Found. The one that was planned for us at the beginning of the last century. We entered it and stupidly wandered towards the abyss. And, not knowing how to curtail, we are looking for excuses for ourselves, not realizing that we are trampling on the memory of the millions of victims brought in the Second World War for the sake of future generations, that is, us. And even the memory of those who, according to some, fell an innocent victim of a very guilty era. So stop blaming the man who sent the "innocent" to heaven! Indeed, in fact, he did not let them become guilty, as Vlasov and many of a lower rank became guilty, and at the end of his life go to hell.
            1. -5
              31 October 2019 00: 51
              Quote: depressant
              in its second chapter, "Intention or Dementia".

              Dementia is a too mild description of Mr. Dudko’s condition, judging by his text. Unlike you, I am quite actively interested not in someone’s senile delirium, but in the real state of affairs at that time.
              Quote: depressant
              make him out of evil. Stalin did. He could.

              Yes Yes. It is as if this wonderful country that you described so vividly (perhaps very colorfully) not after 15 years of Comrade Stalin’s leadership was formed.
              Quote: depressant
              So stop blaming the man who sent the "innocent" to heaven!

              We’ll all be there, according to Vladimir Vladimirovich.
      3. -21
        30 October 2019 15: 42
        If only you PERSONALLY live with this Human!
        1. +17
          30 October 2019 15: 53
          Grandfathers and grandmothers lived, even father found. and why this did not happen to them.
          1. -20
            30 October 2019 15: 55
            Personally for you .... would you like to live in the 30s under Comrade Stalin?
            1. +10
              30 October 2019 15: 55
              Why not .
              1. -22
                30 October 2019 15: 59
                It would be nice for you to live)))) Not so much now)))) What did you live like then ....
                1. +11
                  30 October 2019 16: 02
                  So what ? What would be the matter with me?
                  1. -23
                    30 October 2019 16: 06
                    Life-a hut and a Dugout ..... if in a village-workdays your destiny ....
                    1. +11
                      30 October 2019 16: 09
                      Why not a camp and a two-handed saw?
                    2. +11
                      30 October 2019 16: 28
                      1970mk (Michael)
                      Life-a hut and a Dugout ..... if in a village-workdays your destiny ....
                      What is it that everyone lived in barracks and dugouts? I wish my grandfather and grandmother would be surprised ... lol
                      1. +4
                        30 October 2019 17: 32
                        Well this is pure "consumer".
                      2. -7
                        30 October 2019 20: 21
                        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
                        What is it that everyone lived in barracks and dugouts? I wish my grandfather and grandmother would be surprised ...
                        Would you like everyone to?
                    3. Alf
                      +10
                      30 October 2019 19: 53
                      Quote: 1970mk
                      Life is a hut and a dugout.

                      When did the Khrushchev begin to build?
                      In 1931, under the guidance of engineer A.S. Vatsenko, construction of a house was started in Kharkov from panels, which were two thin reinforced concrete shells connected by ribs along the perimeter, the space between them was covered with slag. In 1937, the first prototypes of wall panels were made at Uralmashzavod (architects G.I. Potapov, G.G. Rostkovskaya, engineer Ovchinnikov), but because of the complexity of the construction, the construction of houses from these panels was not started [9]. By this time, panel houses were already being built in some Western countries, but they became really widespread after the Second World War, when it was necessary to quickly restore the destroyed cities [10].
                      The need to restore housing forced to turn to the issue of industrial housing construction in the USSR. At first, frame and panel low-rise private houses were popular, but by the beginning of the 1950s, Soviet architects gave preference to medium and multi-storey construction (largely due to the so-called serial method of typical design: the creation of a series of standard projects that are unified by the nature of the architecture) [ 6]. Work was restored in the field of panel housing construction. The plant, located in Berezovsky near Sverdlovsk (now Yekaterinburg), built there in 1945 the first large-panel single-storey house in the USSR with an incomplete frame designed by architects G. Potapov and G. Rostovskaya (engineer I. T. Smirnov, with the participation of Potapov and Rostkovskaya ) Berezovsky one- and two-story houses with 3x3 m panels were replicated in Yekaterinburg and the working villages of the Sverdlovsk region until 1951 [9] [5].
                      The first experimental frame-panel houses in Moscow began to be commissioned in 1948.
                      The collection of data reflected in these documents, in the opinion of architecture historian D. S. Khmelnitsky, indicates the preparation of the country's leadership for housing reform, which was supposed to resolve the most acute housing crisis [7]. Its reasons were: an unprecedented relocation of rural residents to cities, which began even before the Revolution and accelerated in the 1930s

                      So it was the "bloody tyrant" who initiated the massive construction of residential buildings and the resettlement of people from village to city.
                      Khrushchev, as usual, attributed everything to himself.
                      1. -11
                        30 October 2019 21: 13
                        Quote: Alf
                        So it was the "bloody tyrant" who initiated the massive construction of residential buildings and the resettlement of people from village to city.

                        And this relocation was stimulated by the robbery of the peasantry, slave labor conditions, and the most severe taxes. When the peasants were given passports in their hands, huh? Do not remember? The kindest soul was man.
                        Of course, the introduction of the collective farm system forced the peasants to flee by all possible means and seek work in the cities. But if everyone runs away, then who will work for the state for free? In 1932, the CEC and the Council of People's Commissars issued a decree establishing a unified passport system.
                        And so that collective farmers did not decide to run away, no passports were provided for them at all. Violation of registration of passports was punished for the first time with a large fine, and in some cases - with imprisonment.
                        Theoretically, there was the opportunity to move from the collective farm. But for this it was necessary to obtain the personal permission of the collective farm chairman. For an adult, this was not such a simple quest, since they were usually not given such permission. Most of those who left collective farms are young people sent to study in cities.
                      2. Alf
                        +6
                        30 October 2019 21: 27
                        Quote: astepanov
                        And this relocation was stimulated by the robbery of the peasantry, slave labor conditions, and the most severe taxes.

                        To whom ..
                        By the way, taxes in post-war Germany reached 90%.
                      3. -7
                        30 October 2019 21: 47
                        And I'm talking about the LEAD TIME. In our country, the peasants have always lived (and now live) as if the front line passes through the garden and floodplain.
                      4. +3
                        30 October 2019 22: 19
                        Listen to the Beatles' Taxman. It was written when Ringo Starr found out that taxes to the treasury are 19 out of 20 units (I'm not very strong in their monetary system with pennies, shillings, guineas, pounds).
                      5. +3
                        31 October 2019 01: 59
                        Quote: Ural-4320
                        Listen to the Beatles' Taxman. It was written when Ringo Starr found out that taxes to the treasury are 19 out of 20 units (I'm not very strong in their monetary system with pennies, shillings, guineas, pounds).
                        So you can listen to the song "Abba" "----" money-money "". And this is later than the Beatles. As you work more and more, but there is no money, you have no choice but to do everything, just to marry a rich man, only this way ... or just win .... nothing else.
                2. +4
                  30 October 2019 17: 07
                  You ask an incorrect question. Of course, that time without the usual amenities and attributes of modernity was difficult for a modern person. In any country! For our grandfathers and great-grandfathers, it was a miracle-electric light, a radio in the village, a movie ... That time was bright for those people, but certainly difficult and heroic.
                  1. Alf
                    +5
                    30 October 2019 19: 54
                    Quote: 210ox
                    For our grandfathers and great-grandfathers, it was a miracle-electric light, a radio in the village, a movie ...

                    And all this for some twenty years.
            2. +13
              30 October 2019 20: 50
              Quote: 1970mk
              Personally for you .... would you like to live in the 30s under Comrade Stalin?

              I’ll personally answer you that hardly anyone would want to live at that time, because the level of well-being is very different - if you lived under Stalin, you would hardly want to return to the time of Alexander the Liberator as a serf.
              But NOW many people sincerely wish Stalin to stand at the helm of the state, because all the blessings of the country would return to the people, but this is not the main thing. The main thing is that the chances of survival of our civilization in the modern world under its leadership would increase dramatically, given that we are surrounded not only by nations alien to us, but also by an ideology alien to us, and this can lead to the fact that we are simply absorbed by those who now has an advantage in terms of population.
              So the return of Stalin is more of an ideological question, and not a desire to fix our momentary problems by a tough hand. That is why those who think about the future of our descendants increasingly look at Stalin as a skillful leader of our society - I emphasize precisely our society with our vision of the world order and life foundations. When they are abandoned, what is happening in Ukraine now happens when a Russian person who imagines himself to be a Ukrainian kills the same Russian person just because they have different heroes, and it is forbidden to speak their native language. You would like to see a similar scenario occur with us - I would not want to. Can it be easier to send the most odious "preachers" to the GULAG in order to stop the massacre and calm the people?
          2. -12
            30 October 2019 16: 01
            Does this mean that nothing happened at all to anyone?
            1. +8
              30 October 2019 16: 06
              Quote: Mestny
              Does this mean that nothing happened at all to anyone?

              But now, what doesn’t happen to anyone? I’ve been surrounded by a barn yesterday
          3. -10
            30 October 2019 19: 14
            Quote: ZAV69
            Grandfathers and grandmothers lived, even father found. and why this did not happen to them.

            "Survivor's Bug".
        2. KCA
          -4
          30 October 2019 16: 12
          Tell us how you personally lived with him.
          1. +3
            30 October 2019 16: 14
            Alas, I'm 69 years old. I did not find it.
            1. KCA
              +8
              30 October 2019 16: 22
              Well, how then can you judge the life of people under Stalin? Did you put everyone in the camps? Was everyone innocent or repressed? You now, with the crusts of a journalist, go to any prison or colony, absolutely everything will tell you that they are innocent, and their investigators caulked them for show, fabricated evidence, brought their witnesses, some 5-6 times were sent by the evil followers of Yezhov and Beria, well, someone might say that they planted him for a loaf of bread (modern analogue "for three spikelets")
              1. +8
                30 October 2019 16: 28
                In general, I remember the stories of my grandparents. Why didn’t they tell any horrors. They told how they waited for their great-grandfather from the bazaar, he always brought a bunch of bagels. Grandfather talked a lot about how he studied at a vocational school before the war as a carpenter. Yes, in general he told a lot of purely everyday stories.
      4. -6
        30 October 2019 16: 55
        Argues with this, it’s the same as thinking against the wind, but what about repressions? Who will answer the question, who needed them and why. With criminals and ardent anti-advisers, the question is clear and understandable, the rest for what?
        1. Alf
          +4
          30 October 2019 19: 56
          Quote: Ros 56
          With criminals and ardent anti-advisers, the question is clear and understandable, the rest for what?

          A counter question, how many of these "others" were there? Give the numbers.
          1. 0
            31 October 2019 11: 07
            Yes, at least three, the question is the same for what?
        2. +4
          30 October 2019 20: 45
          Many criminal offenses, such as embezzlement, embezzlement, negligence, malpractice, qualified as criminal. For example, my grandfather’s brother took a ten at 58, I don’t remember part. With a terrible wording: for acts aimed at undermining defense. In fact: the quartermaster stealing army property. He stole that was not pinned. Doesn’t theft from the army reduce defense?
      5. +3
        30 October 2019 17: 48
        Quote: Egorovich
        Great was a HUMAN!

        The greatest man of the 20 century!
    3. +2
      30 October 2019 17: 19
      And so it comes true, as even polls of the liberal media and agencies like Levada speak about, and they cannot be accused of sympathizing with Stalin. Up to 90%.
    4. -16
      30 October 2019 21: 24
      Today is the Day of Victims of Political Repression, the kingdom of heaven to all innocent victims, and Stalin's dog burns in hell.
    5. +3
      31 October 2019 06: 12
      Bring back Stalin - father
      At least for half a year,
      Let him bring it to the end
      One question is the enemies of the people.

      Finish business as soon as possible
      And everything will be reasonable, decorous,
      Enough would be only camps,
      So that everyone can put them together.

      Enemies of all Leninist ideas,
      We have them, as in an enema,
      All of them, long time ago
      To Siberia on the construction sites of communism.

      Bring back Stalin - father
      At least for half a year
      And he is from a Russian face,
      How makeup will erase the enemies of the people.
    6. +2
      31 October 2019 08: 16
      Even after death, Comrade Stalin serves the Motherland
    7. 0
      31 October 2019 10: 11
      Spartanez300 (Victor) do not tell me from which speech of JV Stalin your quote is taken?
      For example, the article explicitly states
      Attributed to Stalin, but, in fact, very strong words come true (from the conversation of I. Stalin with A. Kollontai, 1939 year):
      Attributed words are clearly written here, but it is not indicated that even the fact of the conversation itself is not verified. For it remains on Trushevsky’s conscience.
    8. 0
      1 November 2019 11: 26
      I think this "picture" will also be relevant ..

    9. 0
      4 November 2019 12: 34
      ... and my country will be littered with garbage. And the end of the story.
  2. +18
    30 October 2019 15: 07
    Thus, Stalin implemented the concept of a fair living arrangement in the USSR-Russia (communism is the life of a commune-community on the basis of an ethics of conscience and truth). The civilization of the future came into being - a society of knowledge, service and creation, where creators and creators lived. Stalin's job is to make people's lives happy, joyful, and creative. Therefore, in Russia there is a revival of popular Stalinism.

    The main thing is not to forget .. young people should remember and know the truth about Stalin. By all means, we must strive to prevent the blackening of the name of Great Stalin. Liberal propaganda is working to its fullest, and not only here, in the whole capitalist world, they want to make Stalin a bloodsucker, to slander .. This is done from fear, fear of the great idea of ​​communism, which could completely change this world ..
    1. +7
      30 October 2019 17: 57
      Quote: Svarog
      The main thing is not to forget .. young people should remember and know the truth about Stalin. By all means, we must strive to prevent the blackening of the name of Great Stalin.

      We cannot wait for this with our media. An hour ago I turned on the TV, and there Guzeeva with her vulgar "matchmakers". There is enough airtime for this nonsense, but not for patriotic programs, since there is neither the Ministry of Culture, nor the Ministry of Education.
      1. +5
        30 October 2019 18: 17
        Quote: tihonmarine
        Quote: Svarog
        The main thing is not to forget .. young people should remember and know the truth about Stalin. By all means, we must strive to prevent the blackening of the name of Great Stalin.

        We cannot wait for this with our media. An hour ago I turned on the TV, and there Guzeeva with her vulgar "matchmakers". There is enough airtime for this nonsense, but not for patriotic programs, since there is neither the Ministry of Culture, nor the Ministry of Education.

        Absolutely agree.. hi
      2. -13
        30 October 2019 20: 16
        Quote: tihonmarine
        There is enough airtime for this nonsense, but no patriotic programs

        In the village /, where my grandfather and father come from, until the end of the sixties they lived in houses with thatched roofs and earthen floors. In the villages near Orenburg, they lived in dugouts, without electricity - this is my father told me, he was engaged in electrification there in 66 - 67. Yes, and in my city there were also huts of adobe, and in them - 8 souls of the people. Do you think this was talked about in propaganda? No, they said that "Everything is brighter and more joyful to live." Clothes - quilted jackets, both for work and at home. I went to school in a quilted jacket and tarpaulin boots. My uncle, who worked as a worker in a brick factory, served 10 th - a Trotskyist. He didn't even know a word like that. He left the camp and died the next year. And a year later he was re-ablated. In the village where my father came from, the family was planted somewhere in 39 because a 12-year-old girl sang a ditty: “When there was no advice, I didn't see ... the world, but how we got advice, I saw ... shine". Didn't look that baby.
        Do you feel like it in those days? Well, so settle in a dugout, turn off the electricity, hang an amulet with a portrait of Stalin around your neck and pray for it. Read only "Pravda" for 37 years and "A short course on the history of the CPSU (b). And dig your Belomor-channel until you die.
        The future needs to be built, and not to compose sweet fairy tales about the rivers of milk and the jelly banks based on samples taken from Pyrev’s vile films.
        1. +9
          30 October 2019 21: 42
          Quote: astepanov
          . I went to school in a quilted jacket and tarpaulin boots.

          And what? Frozen on the way to school? By the way, I also went to the 80 in a padded jacket and in tarpaulin boots.
          1. -6
            30 October 2019 21: 48
            Are you still at the computer in kirsach and in a quilted jacket? This is your own business. But do not force it on others.
            1. +8
              30 October 2019 21: 51
              Quote: astepanov
              Are you still at the computer in kirsach and in a quilted jacket?

              Now I’m generally in shorts with polka dots under the covers.
              1. -6
                30 October 2019 22: 05
                Do not play around. With "clave" he, you see, under the covers. You were asked a simple question - don't wag.
                1. +5
                  30 October 2019 22: 08
                  Quote: astepanov
                  Do not play around. With "clave" he, you see, under the covers.

                  I have a laptop. feel
                  1. -8
                    30 October 2019 23: 19
                    Okay, I give up: there were no mass political repressions, there was no destruction of science and culture, there were no mass deportations of entire peoples, peasants lived full and they had passports, there was complete freedom of movement ... But I (and the author of the article too) want to remind you that during the time of Stalin for public criticism of the current government (and you have it in the posts, and the author has it in the article) you would have already broken bones, smeared your forehead with green paint and leaned against the wall. If you are a Stalinist, then you must act in relation to the state, as the Stalinists - i.e. stick tongues in the ass and keep quiet. You should be consistent, or cowards - or a cross ...
                    1. +6
                      30 October 2019 23: 29
                      Quote: astepanov
                      If you are a Stalinist, then you must act in relation to the state, as the Stalinists - i.e. stick tongues in the ass and keep quiet. You should be consistent, or cowards - or a cross ...

                      Figures. I do not deny political repressions and deportations, and even more so I do not intend to give up criticism in relation to the current system, since it destroyed almost everything that my ancestors created under the leadership of the Communists.
          2. +2
            31 October 2019 07: 27
            In our childhood, kirzachs were appreciated in the winter - they rolled down the hill further laughing
      3. +2
        30 October 2019 20: 49
        You turn on the wrong channels. Turn on the channel "History", 365 days of TV. At worst, "Star" There are a lot of documentaries about the Stalin era, and quite objective ones.
    2. -6
      30 October 2019 19: 16
      Quote: Svarog
      make Stalin a bloodsucker, slander .. This is done from fear, fear of the great idea of ​​communism,

      Sorry, but how do they relate to the great idea of ​​communism:
      T. Lenin
      T. Trotsky
      T. Khrushchev?
      1. +2
        30 October 2019 20: 57
        No way. All three. Communism, okay, this is utopia, the kingdom of heaven on earth. For the first two: Lenin and Trotsky, Russia was no more than a kindling for the world fire of revolution. Therefore, the faithful Leninist comrades-in-arms, Stalin quickly removed to the moon, as an obstacle to the construction of socialism, in a single state. Khrushchev is an example of how anyone can rule the state
        1. 0
          31 October 2019 07: 39
          And that he himself did not take away then, as a faithful Leninist? Nonsense. The building of socialism in a single state is the idea of ​​Lenin.
          1. -2
            31 October 2019 09: 43
            Lenin's idea, first of all, is a world revolution. “We will inflame the world fire on all the bourgeoisie.” Moreover, it was supposed to carry out this world revolution at the expense of Russia, its resources, including human resources.
            1. +1
              31 October 2019 09: 59
              The world revolution does not contradict the idea of ​​socialism in a single country. Socialism in a single country is a special case of the world revolution. In this, both Lenin and Stalin were in solidarity, both of them were for the world revolution. Read Stalin himself, not any vulgar interpreters.

              Nothing of the kind was supposed. Soviet Russia is becoming a natural ally and defender of other proletarian revolutions, nothing more. And you are again spreading perestroika myths.
              1. +1
                31 October 2019 10: 09
                I read the works of the classics, I read. By the end of the 20s, Stalin had departed from the idea of ​​world revolution, focusing on building socialism in a single state. After which he thoroughly engaged in the elimination of the leaders of the Comintern. And in the last years of its existence, the Comintern, from a hotbed of world revolution, turned into one of the intelligence agencies.
                1. 0
                  31 October 2019 10: 57
                  Poorly read means. After the end of WWI, a period of reaction began, when the whole revolutionary fermentation was declining. Trying to "export on bayonets" the proletarian revolution meant rallying the entire cap against oneself. peace, and also discredit socialism. During this period, social. countries should strengthen and wait for a new round of revolutions, and even then openly enter into confrontation with the cap. the world. The situation is changing, tactics are changing. Stalin followed this policy, which contributed to the creation of social. camp. And there were those who did not understand this, they had to be pacified.

                  Lenin: “The unevenness of economic and political development is the unconditional law of capitalism. It follows that the victory of socialism is possible initially in a few or even in a single, capitalist country. The victorious proletariat of this country, having expropriated the capitalists and organized socialist production, would have stood up against the rest of the capitalist world, attracting the oppressed classes of other countries, raising an uprising against the capitalists in them, even speaking out if necessary with military force against the exploiting classes and their states. "
  3. -1
    30 October 2019 15: 10
    Stalin's personality is such that such agitation is unnecessary to him. It would be better to give specific examples of what, how and why. More benefit would be. For the people as well. And reading is more interesting. And so verbiage one happened. Maybe in the promised continuation we will focus on the specifics ...
  4. +10
    30 October 2019 15: 14
    The supporting pillars of the Stalinist system were so strong in Russia that they could not be dismantled even halfway through the 1990s and 2000s.

    After modern reformers, there will only be a dash between the two dates.
    1. +14
      30 October 2019 15: 33
      So far, the dash will reach ... So far, from the reforms, ruined factories, millions of migrants and growing cemeteries remain. Well and the growing Forbes list.
  5. +10
    30 October 2019 15: 24
    For thinning the ranks of the supporters of the "World Revolution" - thanks to him.
    Well, for achievements it is worth thanking, first of all, the courageous and talented people who won and built.
    1. +9
      30 October 2019 15: 34
      For thinning the ranks of the supporters of the "World Revolution" - thanks to him.
      Well, for achievements it is worth thanking, first of all, the courageous and talented people who won and built.
      And you understand that in the world everything is interconnected, the people and the leader, the leader and the people. Another leader would not have such a people, and another people would not have such a leader, the stars came together as they say, everything was at the right time and in the right place.
    2. +11
      30 October 2019 15: 38
      Quote: samarin1969

      Well, for achievements it is worth thanking, first of all, the courageous and talented people who won and built.

      Without a talented and wise leader, a people is a herd. An herd of nothing, with all the talent and masculinity of its representatives. Not because it’s bad, but because it’s a swan, cancer and a pike. A wise leader shows all three what and how to do. Combines their efforts in one direction.
      1. +2
        30 October 2019 15: 52
        A people without an elite will not be able to achieve victories. But the "first person" can be mediocre. "People" - it sounds proudly, as well as - "elite". The people, unfortunately, were thinned out by wars and diluted, the elite was eliminated.

        ps Stalin would have been surprised at the "class voluntarism" about the "talented and wise leader." laughing
        1. +1
          30 October 2019 20: 25
          Quote: samarin1969
          "People" - it sounds proudly, as well as - "elite". The people, unfortunately, were thinned out by wars and diluted, the elite was eliminated.

          You have not understood anything. The so-called "elite" is also a large number of people with different characters, views on the same issue, personal goals, etc. the same swan cancer and pike. And who unites them and pushes them to move in one direction? Leader!!!
          Quote: samarin1969

          ps Stalin would have been surprised at the "class voluntarism" about the "talented and wise leader."

          You still do not understand the depth of his modesty?
          Why was Khrushchev removed? Because the mind was not enough to unite the "elite". Not smart enough to come up with ideas capable of combining swan, crayfish and pike to work on these ideas. I do not mean the ideas of a world revolution, but within economic, social, etc. The country has problems that are not connected, as under Stalin, with objective reasons. They were associated with subjective reasons. And these reasons were the leader of the country.
          And you say - ELITE, PEOPLE!
      2. +12
        30 October 2019 15: 53
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        Without a talented and wise leader, a people is a herd.

        good
        The wisdom, will and talent of the leader is not to harness dead and worthless swans, crayfish and pikes to the cart, but to choose hardy and strong trotters who will carry and take them out. And after it remains a sovereign power with a flag, anthem, a strong ruble, the world's best armed forces, and, most importantly, people - educated, healthy, talented, confident in their future and the future of their children.
        In the meantime, we understand the intricacies of plans, the stable failure to comply with decrees, the breadth and depth of breakthroughs, and look for reasons that hinder the country from developing, while turning a blind eye to the genocide of the Russian people. Genocide is ruthless and cynical ...
        hi
        1. -15
          30 October 2019 16: 04
          It remains to add that these "trotters" should not be pitied - otherwise there will be no result necessary for the leader.
          Those who did not get into the "trotters" are not worth mentioning at all. Let him die as much as necessary for a brighter future.
        2. +3
          30 October 2019 20: 57
          Quote: ROSS 42

          The wisdom, will and talent of the leader is not to harness dead and worthless swans, crayfish and pikes to the cart, but to choose hardy and strong trotters who will carry and take them out. And after it remains a sovereign power with a flag,

          These are all words, dreams. There are trotters standing as a selection, choose anyone. So only in fairy tales happens .. and in your dreams. But in life - yes trotters, but they are different, like a swan, a crab and a pike. And the leader’s wisdom to unite them in one impulse and in one direction.
          Even with you, having a lot in common, I mean the views, which are still very different. And take people with ambitions, because only such people get upstairs, with those even more difficult ... to put in one cart.
    3. +4
      30 October 2019 15: 43
      Thinned out of merit. Faithful Leninists would not have brought the country to good.
      1. Alf
        +4
        30 October 2019 20: 00
        Quote: AU Ivanov.
        Thinned out of merit. Faithful Leninists would not have brought the country to good.

        In the early 20s, the so-called "confessions" were very widespread, that is, in the language of the 90s, "joint ventures". True, it turned out that of the profits they received, up to 90% went abroad.
        1. +2
          30 October 2019 21: 01
          Concessions, brother, concessions. Concession - this is such a form of agreement by which foreign companies gained access to the subsoil or industry.
          1. Alf
            +3
            30 October 2019 21: 03
            Quote: AU Ivanov.
            Concessions, brother, concessions. Concession - this is such a form of agreement by which foreign companies gained access to the subsoil or industry.

            Guilty, slip of the tongue. Thank ! hi
          2. Alf
            +1
            31 October 2019 19: 42
            Quote: AU Ivanov.
            Concessions, brother, concessions. Concession - this is such a form of agreement by which foreign companies gained access to the subsoil or industry.

            Andrey, I am very interested, who, having put you a minus, doubts the term "concession"?
      2. -5
        30 October 2019 20: 05
        Quote: AS Ivanov.
        Thinned out of merit. Faithful Leninists would not have brought the country to good.

        Plus

        The purge of the party is a great and undoubted merit of the vigilant-eyed drug commander, comrade N.I. Yezhov and personally dear beloved comrade I.V. Stalin. Not everyone got it, oh, not everyone. Not all old Bolsheviks will see after dash 1937,38,39. For example, from the three who drowned Crimea in blood: - Pyatakov, Kun, Zamlyachka - only the first two received what they deserved. Regarding the execution of comrade Stalin did not respect gender equality and in this, of course, did not look modern.

        Of course, there is criticism of Comrade. Stalin and the People’s Commissars of Justice, criticism is fair. It is impossible, I believe, to disagree with the words of the first general commissioner of state security, Comrade Heinrich Grigorievich Yagoda, said (according to rumors) a couple of weeks before the execution:
        Berry: Yes, I'm sorry, I'm very sorry ...

        Vyshinsky: Attention, comrades judges. Traitor and traitor Berry regrets. What do you regret, spy and criminal Yagoda?

        Berry: I am very sorry ... I am very sorry that when I could do this, I did not shoot you all


        The second general commissioner of state security, Comrade Nikolai Ivanovich Ezhov, spoke on this issue:
        I cleaned 14 security officers, but my great fault is that I did not clean them much.


        The liberals, for their part, are spiteful: okay, the Chekists and Leninists, but why it wasn’t possible to take a closer look, without carpet bombing, as, for example, dear comrade Georgy Maximilianovich Malenkov began to do when he got this opportunity: comrade. L.P. Beria, comrade V.N. Merkulova, comrade B.Z. Kobulova, comrade V.S. Abakumov and others? This also has its own liberal truth, but I believe that along with Comrade’s mistakes Stalin, nevertheless, must nevertheless be sure to note good deeds.
        1. +3
          30 October 2019 21: 03
          Quote: tesser
          Plus

          And I - minus. I read the post, and the impression is that a person lived in parallel reality. And he read books upside down and from right to left.
      3. -1
        30 October 2019 22: 12
        Quote: AU Ivanov.
        Thinned out of merit. Faithful Leninists would not have brought the country to good.

        Comrade Stalin was a true Leninist!
        1. 0
          30 October 2019 22: 41
          I’m afraid that if Lenin had iron health and lived to the 30s, then he shared the fate of Bukharin with Kamenev. And the second option: if Stalin had been removed from power in the 20s, then under wise Leninist rule the country would cease to exist. In real history, Stalin removed from the run almost all of Lenin’s associates as harmful demagogues, useless for the construction of a great power.
          1. 0
            31 October 2019 01: 05
            Quote: AS Ivanov.
            If he lived to the 30s, he shared the fate of Bukharin with Kamenev.

            Do not underestimate Comrade Lenin. Bukharin is unlikely. Kirova - it may well be. But he tried to remove Comrade Stalin during his lifetime, so it was unlikely that the latter had any chances, Lenin retained strength.
  6. -3
    30 October 2019 15: 28
    In the article, unfortunately, some slogans .... I would like specifics ... Let's wait ...
    1. +22
      30 October 2019 16: 01
      - Under Stalin, alcohol consumption was 1,9 liters per day / day - 1952), Now 20 ... 25 liters. Russia is the leader in child alcoholism.
      -There was no drug mafia, so there was no drug addiction. Now, more than 5 million.
      More than 76000 people die each year (from drug use).
      -In the 1945 year, in the USSR there were 680000 orphans. Today in Russia, 850000, and 760000 are children abandoned by their parents.
      -B 1956, the coefficient of income differentiation was 3,3. Today, 10% of the richest are 20 ... 25 times (officially, excluding the shadow economy) times the income of the poorest citizens.
      -Now the share of the population with incomes below the subsistence minimum is 15%. Under Stalin, it was possible to achieve income levels above the minimum for all citizens.
      HIGHLIGHTS-under Stalin, national wealth belonged to the people and the income from it was used in the interests of all citizens: a “funny” communal apartment (I have not grown for 20 years), free medicine, unemployment has been eliminated since 1933
      PS The strength of the Russian people lies not in its size or organization, but in its ability to generate personalities of the scale of I. Stalin. In his military and political qualities, Stalin far surpasses both Churchill and Roosevelt. This is the only world politician worthy of respect. Our task is to fragment the Russian people so that people of the scale of Stalin do not appear.
      Hitler no longer exists, and the liberals continue the work of the "possessed".
      1. +6
        30 October 2019 16: 23
        Quote: knn54
        - Under Stalin, alcohol consumption was 1,9 liters per day / day - 1952), Now 20 ... 25 liters. Russia is the leader in child alcoholism.

        The World Health Organization talks about 11-liters.
        About children's alcoholism, I suppose, too ... uh ... mislead.
        Quote: knn54
        -In the 1945 year, in the USSR there were 680000 orphans. Today in Russia, 850000, and 760000 are children abandoned by their parents.

        "Russia has recorded a record low number of children in orphanages. Now there are less than 48 thousand questionnaires in the data bank. Five years ago there were almost one and a half times more - 69 thousand" This is the data for 2018.
        Quote: knn54
        -Now the share of the population with incomes below the subsistence minimum is 15%. Under Stalin, it was possible to achieve income levels above the minimum for all citizens.

        You can see the data, what was the minimum under Stalin? Or didn’t die of hunger mean income above the minimum?
        Quote: knn54
        Our task is to fragment the Russian people so that people of the scale of Stalin do not appear.

        Sorry, it’s not entirely clear from your monologue who these words belong to ... I hope not for you?
        1. 0
          30 October 2019 17: 33
          I’ll clarify about orphaned houses. They really became much less. People take in families for education. In state institutions there are children with strong pathologies.
      2. +1
        30 October 2019 17: 27
        Here, with approximately such calculations, there should be an article with arguments, and you get the author write ....
  7. +9
    30 October 2019 15: 28
    Man was great: people like him are born once a century, if not less.
  8. NBV
    +3
    30 October 2019 15: 30
    "After my death, a lot of garbage will be put on my grave, but the wind of history will mercilessly dispel it."
    And to this day, such garbage flies around ...
  9. +14
    30 October 2019 15: 35
    Risen Stalin. Putin found out about this and resorts to it:
    - Joseph Vissarionovich, advise how we again become a great power? And then the Americans, Europeans and even Ukrainians do not put us into anything, revealed all my secret accounts, my personal life, they call me names in every possible way!
    - Firstly, you need to quickly shoot Medvedev and the whole United Russia, as well as the entire opposition: Navalny, Kasyanov, etc. .... And secondly, repaint the Kremlin wall in green.
    Putin interrupts:
    - Joseph Vissarionovich, I'm sorry, but why is it green then?
    Stalin puffed on his pipe, exhaled smoke and said thoughtfully:
    - I knew that the first sentence would not cause any objections!

    It seems like a joke, but I think there will be no objections to the first question and the Russian people ....
    1. +12
      30 October 2019 15: 51
      There was still a sequel. So they hung them on the posts of all these Medvedevs, Rottenbergs, Solovievs, Sechins ... Stalin says to Putin: "If you pick the same ones again, you yourself will hang next to them!"
      1. +2
        30 October 2019 21: 56
        kjhg (gargantuathis insignificance would have hung for a long time, although it might have adapted
    2. +4
      30 October 2019 20: 55
      Quote: BIABIA
      It seems like a joke, but I think there will be no objections to the first question and the Russian people.

      Clever joke, I approve.
  10. +25
    30 October 2019 15: 41
    All is correct. The more I live under Putin, the more I respect Stalin.
    1. +16
      30 October 2019 15: 52
      Quote: Van 16
      All is correct. The more I live under Putin, the more I respect Stalin.

      I add, the more I justify the Stalinist purges.
  11. +7
    30 October 2019 15: 48
    Then the power and the people were brought to Gorbachev's "perestroika", which led to the destruction and robbery of the USSR.

    The collapse of the USSR and SEV helped the United States avoid an impending crisis. Under Bill Clinton-Lewinsky, for the first time, the budget was with more than a noticeable surplus:
  12. -20
    30 October 2019 15: 58
    The most valuable thing a person has is Life and freedom, so why, during the time of the great Leader (although in fairness and in many other times), these greatest values ​​were not worth anything? They were deprived of these values, not just by court, by the decision of the NKVD troikas, who wants this? Want a great leap forward by reviving these threes? Or is it on the principle that it will affect others, bad, scoundrels, bad guys, but not me and my loved ones, after all, we are good? Unfortunately, I had to read in the archives about the Stalinist "development" of Siberia, no, the price was too high for my small homeland.
    1. +7
      30 October 2019 16: 16
      Life in itself is a value, BUT ... its value increases in the affairs of this very life ... you can say, let's live 90 years without really doing anything ... but you can 35 and leave a lot of descendants for yourself .. a lot estimate? if the question was put like that in the forties during the war, and in the minds of our people there were European attitudes that all impose and impose on us, then there would be no Victory .. we would not be
    2. +11
      30 October 2019 16: 17
      Gvardeetz77 (Anatoly)
      The most valuable thing a person has is Life and freedom, so why during the great Leader (although for the sake of justice and at many other times) this greatest value was worth nothing?
      Probably because those people had different values. If the people of the Stalin era most appreciated life and freedom, as you paint here, then we would not have had Zoe Komodemyanskaya, Marat Kazey, Alexander Matrosov, or many many others. The values ​​you described are liberal, private, and then social value was above all. Then people understood that they were a community and everyone tried for the sake of this community, and not for the sake of their beloved. That is precisely why then there were breakthroughs, and with your values ​​there will never be any breakthroughs.

      By the way, about "troikas" and other nonsense, do not teach history according to Rezun, Svanidze and other liberals. If we look at real cases, then 95% of them are real criminals, murderers, rapists, thieves and traitors to the Motherland.
      1. -6
        30 October 2019 16: 50
        Interesting, but how is it .. to raise real affairs? After the trial, there was no triple left, nor was there a trial - prosecution, defense, evidence. People were most often condemned by one list. You need to learn history, and Rezun with Svanidze has nothing to do with it. Read the regulations of those times about the work of those same triples. From whom they consisted, what and how they considered.
      2. -9
        30 October 2019 17: 23
        He taught not according to Rezun and Svanidze, but on business trips to the regional centers of Siberia. And do not add "if", otherwise you can go further then, that yes, there would not have been M. Kazey, Z. Kosmodeyanskaya and others, because maybe there would have been no war! Don't "if only".
        But if for you these so-called "liberal values" (and as for me it is universal, Christian in the end) do not mean anything, then sacrifice yourself, your children, loved ones for the common good and a breakthrough: work until death by 169 hours a week for a crust of bread for the sake of society, or if you are not happy with the current government (by the way, then you are a traitor and you are 58, and your family is to master the Far East), then bring yourself to the altar for the sake of trying to change something.
      3. -8
        30 October 2019 18: 55
        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
        If you pick up real cases, then 95% there are real criminals, murderers, rapists, thieves and traitors to the motherland.

        are you talking about Polikarpov, Tupolev, Grigorovich and other prisoners of sharashka .... and this is only in aviation hi
        1. Alf
          +9
          30 October 2019 20: 08
          Quote: ser56
          Quote: Alexander Suvorov
          If you pick up real cases, then 95% there are real criminals, murderers, rapists, thieves and traitors to the motherland.

          are you talking about Polikarpov, Tupolev, Grigorovich and other prisoners of sharashka .... and this is only in aviation hi

          Does the expression "wasteful" mean anything? What did Tupolev bring from the USA? Junk and aircraft drawings in inches. Converting inches to millimeters is practically creating a new aircraft.
          You still remember the "unfortunate" Kurchevsky. Dozens of projects, millions of rubles spent and a complete zero at the exit.
          1. -2
            1 November 2019 13: 31
            Quote: Alf
            What did Tupolev bring from the USA? Junk and drawings of the plane in inch measurement.

            1) are you such a specialist in aviation? bully
            2) if it's not a secret - what did the rest of the aircraft designers "waste"?
            Quote: Alf
            You still remember the "unfortunate" Kurchevsky. Dozens of projects, millions of rubles spent and a complete zero at the exit.

            and who supported this rogue? bully Are not the Bolsheviks in high posts? bully
            1. Alf
              +2
              1 November 2019 20: 12
              Quote: ser56
              Are not the Bolsheviks in high posts?

              Then they were leaned against the wall for this. And the children of these same people howl about "a hundred million loyal party members shot by a bloody tyrant" ...
            2. -4
              2 November 2019 00: 46
              Quote: ser56
              you are such a specialist in aviation

              There is a regular commentator AlexeyRA on the site, it seems. He likes to tell that Tupolev spent all the money that the Soviet government gave him for the purchase of Americans with giblets, spent on two refrigerators, in an apartment and in a summer cottage. Korolev and Glushko, as far as I remember, incorrectly filled out a grant application and were engaged in some kind of nonsense, according to the Tsiolkovsky from the NKVD, during working hours. What their boss Langemak incorrectly designed, the hero of labor posthumously, he did not seem to explain.
              1. -1
                2 November 2019 13: 52
                Quote: tesser
                Americans with giblets, spent on two refrigerators, in the apartment and in the country.

                something cheap americans ... bully
      4. -7
        30 October 2019 20: 20
        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
        If you pick up real cases, then 95% there are real criminals, murderers, rapists, thieves and traitors to the motherland.

        I absolutely agree with you:
        Heads of the General Staff of the General Staff (under different names) after the 24th year.
        Berzin - shot.
        Uritsky - shot.
        Nikonov - shot.
        Gendin - shot.
        Orlov - shot.
        Proskurov - shot.
        Golikov - opa, the one who was in office on June 22 - Marshal of the Soviet Union, 1900-1980.
        Further Panfilov, Ilyichev, Kuznetsov - ceased to shoot, as shot with his hand.

        Finally, the murderers, rapists, thieves and traitors of the motherland to this post have ended.

        We moved to other people's commissariats.
        1. 0
          3 November 2019 11: 47
          Quote: tesser
          Berzin - shot.
          Uritsky - shot.
          Nikonov - shot.
          Gendin - shot.
          Orlov - shot.
          Proskurov - shot.



          So it was for what!
    3. +8
      30 October 2019 21: 23
      Quote: Gvardeetz77
      These values ​​were deprived not only in court, by the decision of the NKVD triples, does anyone want this? He wants a great leap forward due to the revival of these triples?

      Do you even know that the so-called "troikas" were created by the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet? Those. they were a completely legitimate body. Do you even know for what purpose they were created? Let me explain. They were created to fight against those that would take decades to litigate. For example - Do you know what a "thief in law" is? This is a person who does not commit crimes himself. But he generates criminals around him, and they already commit crimes. He yavl. the brain of the criminal community. These are the ones that the "troika" considered. By the way, the "NKVD troika" is wrong. Because the top three included 1 secretary of the regional committee (regional committee), the chairman of the region. Council and Commissioner of the Regional NKVD.
      Moreover, the "troikas" were not an invention of the Sov. Authorities. And under the king, they worked for the good of eradicating criminal communities.
      1. -7
        30 October 2019 21: 52
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        But he generates criminals around him, and they already commit crimes. He yavl. the brain of the criminal community. These are the ones that the "troika" considered.

        Comrade Trotsky generated so many criminals around himself that the Sayano-Shushenskaya hydroelectric power station would envy.
        1. +1
          30 October 2019 22: 21
          Quote: tesser

          Comrade Trotsky generated so many criminals around himself that the Sayano-Shushenskaya hydroelectric power station would envy.

          That's right. But then there were no triples. True, the ice ax stood in the corner.
          1. -4
            30 October 2019 22: 33
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            then the triples weren’t yet

            Under Trotsky was not, but the Trotskyists found. More than.
      2. 0
        1 November 2019 13: 34
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        They were created with the aim of combating those that would take decades to go to court.

        if you drop the bows, then for repressions against those for whom there was no evidence ... hi
        you yourself don’t want 8-10 years in Magadan? hi
        1. 0
          1 November 2019 15: 13
          Quote: ser56

          if you drop the bows, then for repressions against those for whom there was no evidence ...
          you yourself don’t want 8-10 years in Magadan?

          So I have no crimes, not that evidence.
          But at the same time, I do not deny that there were innocent victims. Why they were well explained by Yezhov during interrogations. Read and understand.
          And today they are not? Alas, they are under any authority.
          1. -2
            1 November 2019 18: 31
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            So I have no crimes, not that evidence.

            As if it guarantees you something.
            1. +1
              1 November 2019 21: 50
              Quote: tesser
              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              So I have no crimes, not that evidence.

              As if it guarantees you something.

              And you? If you talk about it, then something is listed behind you and you are nervous. And I'm calm. Even if they come for me, then ... my conscience is clear and this will be my comfort. I wish you the same.
              1. -2
                2 November 2019 00: 24
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                I wish you the same.

                That my consolation be a clear conscience when they come? Thanks, but not worth it.
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                If you talk about it, then something is listed behind you and you are nervous

                For you too, I assure you. You just don't know yet. I don’t know how your life developed, but I came across the work of the valiant law enforcement agencies several times quite closely, on completely different occasions. The impressions are completely unambiguous, both from the work of the unit in the area in one of the cases, and from the activities of the "investigation group" under the leadership of the Major General of the Ministry of Internal Affairs in another way. If you think that the order that was under Comrade Beria differed from the present one for the better, well, happiness, health, good mood.
                1. 0
                  2 November 2019 10: 53
                  Quote: tesser
                  Major Interior Ministry in another way. If you think that the order that was under Comrade Beria differed from the current one for the better, then what about happiness to you, health, good mood.

                  So what am I talking about for a certain number of posts? And you are all - Stalin, Stalin, Beria, Beria .., repression, repression ... Everything is old and the same as a donut hole. But for some reason only the Stalinist repressions and of all the leaders of all states, only Stalin - a bloody executioner. Somehow it is biased. Do not find?
                  1. -1
                    2 November 2019 12: 21
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    But for some reason only the Stalinist repressions and of all the leaders of all states, only Stalin - a bloody executioner

                    What does "only" mean? Lenin, Mao, a crowd of people. Basically, however, the communists.

                    Those who give orders in the first category, the bloody executioner, it seems, is not so hard to figure out. In particular, neither Nikolai the Bloody, nor the tyrant Khrushchev, with or without Malenkov, were not noticed for such cases (in the second case, after 53 g).

                    By the way, the current ones, too, have not yet reached this point. Let's call Santa Claus! Well, all together, STA-LIN! STA-LIN! STA-LIN!
                    1. 0
                      2 November 2019 12: 57
                      Quote: tesser
                      What does "only" mean? Lenin,

                      Lenin? Is this one in which the death penalty was immediately abolished? At which, initially, the arrested opponents of the new government were released on parole? Excuse me, my friend, do you know such a word as conscience? Or would you like Lenin and Dzerzhinsky to continue to release them honestly, in spite of the fact that they organized terror against representatives of the new government? Are you holding them for idiots?
                      1. 0
                        2 November 2019 13: 46
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Or would you like Lenin and Dzerzhinsky to continue to release them honestly, in spite of the fact that they organized terror against representatives of the new government?

                        1) the Bolsheviks organized terror, for this they created the Cheka! Moreover, after the power seizure of power!
                        2) I recommend reading the VIL article on cooperation, where he compares alien classes with insects ... request
                        3) You poorly know the history of Russia, more precisely, only at the Short Course of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks hi
                      2. 0
                        2 November 2019 19: 02
                        Quote: ser56

                        1) the Bolsheviks organized terror, for this they created the Cheka! Moreover, after the power seizure of power

                        Why should the Bolsheviks arrange terror if the power is in their hands too? Are you at odds with logic? And, what was the Cheka originally created for? Try to catch the meaning of the name - "Extraordinary Commission". Well, who am I, sword beads?
                      3. 0
                        4 November 2019 14: 38
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Why would the Bolsheviks make terror if the authorities are in their hands?

                        to stay in power - they did not have the support of the majority of the people - see the results of the choice of the CSS. request
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Are you at odds with logic?

                        this is your problem ... bully
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        And, what was the Cheka originally created for?

                        as an organ of coercion!

                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Well, who am I to this, sword beads?

                        that there are no arguments - went to the individual? wink
              2. 0
                2 November 2019 13: 43
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                my conscience is clear and this will be my comfort.

                hundreds of thousands of those not guilty like you were shot in 1937-38 ... hi However, you are ready to slander them for the sake of your idol - Stalin ... request
                1. 0
                  2 November 2019 19: 05
                  Quote: ser56
                  However, you are ready to slander them for the sake of your idol - Stalin ...

                  I don’t know who whom, but now you have already lied to me.
                  Where in my words are there words where I say that they were all guilty?
                  1. 0
                    4 November 2019 14: 30
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    Where in my words are there words where I say that they were all guilty?

                    see above - if there are problems with memory - "These are the ones that the" troika "considered" ... hi
                    1. 0
                      4 November 2019 15: 27
                      Quote: ser56

                      see above - if there are problems with memory - "These are the ones that the" troika "considered" ...

                      That is, in your minds the word "considered" is a synonym for a conviction?
                      To what can stupid hatred of Owls lead? Authority based only on someone else’s statements.
                      1. -1
                        5 November 2019 16: 23
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        That is, in your minds the word "considered" is a synonym for a conviction?

                        1) it is a pity that you need to give full quotes so that you realize WHAT to write ... ...
                        "For example - you know what it is"kingpin"? This is a man who does not commit crimes himself. But he generates criminals around himself, and they already commit crimes. He is the brain of the criminal community. This is what the" troika "considered.
                        2) I chew - based on your example - convicted by triples are like these criminals ... and this is a lie ...
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        To what can stupid hatred of Owls lead? Authorities

                        The impenetrable stupidity of SV supporters is that they see millions of repressed without trial and consider it the norm ... request
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        based only on someone’s statements.

                        1) Do you deny massive fist links?
                        2) Do you deny the repression of 36-39g?
                        etc. bully
          2. 0
            2 November 2019 13: 41
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            So I have no crimes, not that evidence.

            1) they will decide the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks and you will become a criminal - like fists ... request
            2) A co-worker or apartment neighbor will write a denunciation and they will take you ... and there they’ll knock out anything - so as not to waste time collecting evidence - the queen of evidence admits ... hi
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            Why they were well explained by Yezhov during interrogations

            Yezhov switchman ... hi see paragraph 1 above ...
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            And today they are not? Alas, they are under any authority.

            that is why the death penalty has been abolished! However, the question is% errors! The court is an opportunity to prove your innocence, and against the correspondence triple you will not do anything at all ... hi
            1. 0
              2 November 2019 19: 11
              Quote: ser56
              Yezhov switchman ...

              Quite right - switchman. And it was he who turned the arrows and directed the "locomotive" of repression at the innocent too.
              Actually, you read the research literature on the topic. Find out from what, after what and from whose submission the "repressions" began. Maybe the noodles that liberals of all stripes put on you will fall off your ears.
              1. 0
                4 November 2019 14: 30
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                Maybe the noodles that liberals of all stripes have fastened on you will fall off your ears.

                this is Agitprop's noodles on your ears ... request
                1. 0
                  4 November 2019 15: 35
                  Quote: ser56
                  this is Agitprop's noodles on your ears ...

                  Well, where did you get this from? Archival documents and propaganda concepts are not entirely compatible. I read them personally and based on them I made my own conclusions, and you, without any hesitation, believed in the horrors told by your grandmother in the bazaar. Do you catch the difference?
                  Read, for example, for what maximum term could the "troika" convict an accused? Those. her actions were strictly regulated. Well, why do you need it? You already know that Stalin reveled in the blood of babies.
                  1. 0
                    5 November 2019 16: 29
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    You, having summed up nothing, believed in the horrors told by your grandmother in the bazaar.

                    1) my grandmother was exiled to SV only because she worked all her life.
                    2) filter the bazaar, it seems that with CB supporters you can only speak the language of socially close ones ... bully
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    Read, for example, for what maximum term could the "troika" convict an accused?

                    to remind that members of the PB VKPB wrote on the lists "to the VMN" and what it means .... you are a reader of our archives ... but under the tsar, a Special meeting at the Ministry of Internal Affairs gave up to 5 years of exile ...
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    You already know that Stalin reveled in the blood of infants.

                    decided to run? bully I remind you that under the 1937 constitution it was possible to condemn only in court ... so 3ki are not legal ... request And there is no article about the guilt of peoples and their link ... hi
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    Well, where did you get this from?

                    from your revelations here ... hi

                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    I read them personally and based on them I made my own conclusions

                    it seems to draw conclusions it's not yours ... request or you are ideological Russophobe like Lenin or Marx ... request
                    1. 0
                      5 November 2019 19: 54
                      Quote: ser56
                      1) my grandmother was exiled to SV only because she worked all her life.

                      Yes, who would doubt it. All exiled were white and fluffy. Ask anyone - why was he sitting? There is only one answer - for no reason. Uncle Kolya, after a glass of tea, another, what was he for? - For theft. He stole a bag of grain from a collective farm barn.
                      But he returned from there with a pocket of money, a diploma "Drummer of Communist Labor" and a chainsaw (!!!)
                      Quote: ser56
                      to remind that members of the PB VKPB wrote on the lists "to the VMN" and what this means ....

                      Well, what does that mean? I explain to illiterate wretchers: Members of the PB were given lists of only those people who were prominent political, diplomatic, trade, economic, military figures who had already been sentenced by a court or military tribunal to the BM of social protection, but, for political and other reasons, these sentences could be changed or execution of a sentence, for the same reasons, may be delayed. Therefore, this issue, the time frame for the execution of the sentence, or its cancellation in connection, for example, with the exchange for someone, was decided by the PB. Do you understand? Your grandmother could not know about this, but you, reflecting on this subject, are ashamed not to know. And if you had studied this question not from your grandparents' stories, now you would not have flogged nonsense.
                      Quote: ser56
                      you are our reader of archives ... but under the tsar, a special meeting at the Ministry of Internal Affairs gave up to 5 years of exile ...

                      A special meeting under the USSR, given the more complex criminal situation, gave up to 8 years of exile, and no more.
                      [quote = ser56 so 3k are not legal. [/ quote]
                      And again, you do not know the ford, scampering into the water. The triples were created on the basis of a resolution of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR, i.e. it was an absolutely legal authority.
                      Quote: ser56
                      And there is no article about the guilt of peoples and their link ...

                      But neither the first nor the second Chechen wars taught you anything. I am not surprised.
                      Quote: ser56
                      it seems to draw conclusions it's not yours ... or are you ideological Russophobe like Lenin or Marx ...

                      Well, what conclusions do you draw from grandmother’s tales, we already understood.
                      1. 0
                        6 November 2019 16: 50
                        "All the exiles were white and fluffy."
                        I won’t say it for everyone, but my grandmother and children were exiled as a wife of a fist ... request
                        I understand that for you this crime is how to be a fist, and his wife or child, which should be punished by reference ... you are a banal Russophobe ... request
                        "who have already been sentenced by a court or military tribunal to the VM of social protection"
                        1) 3ka is this a court? bully
                        2) under the Constitution of the USSR 37g PB PBKPb was not an appeal instance - i.e. lawlessness was happening, which you yourself recognized .... hi
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        I explain to illiterate wanderers

                        see above - you will never grow to my level of education and knowledge ... bully
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        And if you had studied this question not from your grandparents' stories, now you would not have flogged nonsense

                        1) flogging nonsense is your path - earlier I blew you by the grain yield so that you sang that the numbers are not the main thing ... hi
                        2) eyewitness accounts are very important - I survived Perestroika, so now I regard issues of revolution without reverence, as well as their leaders ... hi
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Presidium of the Supreme Council of the USSR, t

                        those. in the framework of the 1937 constitution? bully
                        read:
                        "Article 107. Justice in the RSFSR is administered by the Supreme Court of the RSFSR, the Supreme Courts of the autonomous republics, regional and regional courts, the courts of autonomous regions, courts of national districts, courts of administrative districts, special courts of the USSR created by order of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR, people's courts."
                        Do not indicate where is 3ki? hi
                        Article 109. The Supreme Court of the RSFSR is the highest judicial body of the RSFSR. The Supreme Court of the RSFSR is entrusted with the supervision of the judicial activities of all judicial bodies of the RSFSR, autonomous republics and regions.
                        where is PB VKPb? bully
                        Article 115. The proceedings in all courts of the RSFSR are open, since the law does not provide for exceptions, ensuring the accused has the right to defense.
                        where are 3
                        116 Article. Judges are independent and obey only the law.
                        where is it about PB VKPb? bully
                        conclusion-you do not know the basics of the legislation of the RSFSR ... hi

                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        But neither the first nor the second Chechen wars taught you anything. I am not surprised.

                        Hmm ... and this is a Stalinist-internationalist ....


                        Article 127. The equal rights of citizens of the RSFSR, regardless of their nationality and race, in all areas of the economic, state, cultural and socio-political life is an immutable law.

                        Any direct or indirect restriction of rights or, conversely, the establishment of direct or indirect advantages of citizens depending on their race and nationality, as well as any preaching of racial or national exclusivity or hatred and neglect - are punishable by law.
                        allocated for you ... hi

                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        we already understood.

                        1) who are we? :)
                        2) you are personally an illiterate Stalinist nationalist ... in your head there are mutually exclusive concepts - you are sorry ... hi
                      2. +1
                        6 November 2019 19: 29
                        Quote: ser56
                        I will not say for everyone, but my grandmother

                        That's your trouble. You have an insult to Sov.vlast for your grandmother and her children, which has grown into hatred, does not allow you to take a sober look at the essence of things happening at that time. You can’t get rid of this hatred in any way and look at everything that happens not with the eyes of your grandmother, but with the eyes of an outside observer, for an objective understanding.
                        If you are as smart as you claim, then you cannot but agree that the kulak, as a class, objectively interfered, and not only by the fact of its existence, but also by practical resistance to the creation of collective farms. Do not forget that the people also called the kulak a world eater. Those. Whatever one may say, among the vast mass of the peasantry, the kulak was, let's say, not loved. And now your grandfather is dispossessed and sent to the camp, and you cannot prove to me that he was "white and fluffy", like me, that he actively opposed the creation of a collective farm. And the wife is exiled somewhere. Do you think it would be easier for her to live in a village where everyone hates her? What would it be like for her children? After all, you know - children are very cruel, and they would spread rot on grandmother's children so that "mama do not cry." All this, of course, is my speculation, but you must admit, this could well be. Therefore, the resettlement had its advantages. The time was very cruel. And this must also be understood. But your hatred at the genetic level hinders you. Alas.
                        Here I will give you an example: After the war, an "epidemic" of crime began in Leningrad. The criminals undressed people right on the street, and decently dressed men, and especially women. The authorities urgently needed to resolve the issue, the criticism against her was serious. As you understand, you can't put a policeman on all passers-by.
                        Therefore, the Authority went to extreme measures - allowed the police to take illegal measures - operation "decoy duck". Several police officers changed into decent clothes. But since it was impossible to put an escort behind them - the criminals are not fools, they were given a pistol and, as Comrade Fleming said, "a license to kill." Two weeks later, the issue was removed from the agenda. I have a question for you - how many people in Leningraders condemned the actions of the authorities? After all, a shooting without a court decision! I dare to assure you - nobody. For the sake of citizens being able not to be afraid to walk around their city at any time of the day, it is sometimes worth violating the judicial and procedural code. After the end of the "decoy" operation, the "license to kill" was revoked.
                        It was the same with the "troika", the legitimacy of whose existence you, without hesitation, do not recognize. Well, yes, these are your problems. Stay in peace.
                      3. 0
                        8 November 2019 12: 41
                        "If you are as smart as you claim, then you cannot but agree that the kulak, as a class, objectively interfered, and not only by the fact of its existence, but also by practical resistance to the creation of collective farms."
                        1) I'm even smarter than you think ... hi
                        2) I cannot agree with the stupidity that you are broadcasting from the Short Course - the collective farm is one of the forms of cooperatives - no more! And why was it impossible to let the fists create their own cooperatives? request I am deeply convinced that these would be very efficient farms ... for example - in the USSR and under temporary detention facilities artels for gold mining were allowed - well, the country really needed it ... bully But they did without bread - well, people will die out - then ... request
                        "Do not forget that the people also called the kulak a world eater" - to remind what the people called the Bolsheviks? bully
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Those. whatever one may say, in the vast mass of the peasantry, they still did not like to say the fist, to put it mildly.

                        and smart, lucky and rich never love lazy people and fools request see the example of D. Schukar ... well, a true collective farmer - he will work ... bully
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Do you think it would be easier for her to live in a village where everyone hates her? And what would her children be like?

                        1) You have a funny "logic" - it's better to rob people, throw them out of the house and send them over 1000 km in winter, while taking the house under the rule of a collective farm .... Try it on yourself ...
                        2) I hope you understand and realize that you are justifying the repression and robbery of innocent women and children ... request
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        But your hatred at the genetic level bothers you. Alas.

                        let's say this (purely hypothetically feel ), it’s a pity that your grandmothers with mom and dad were not sent to Narym ... But you personally, they didn’t put you in a psychiatric hospital with LIB (the diagnosis is obvious from your texts) - this prevents you from understanding what the authorities’ arbitrariness is .... request
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        In order for citizens to be able to walk around their city at any time of the day, it is sometimes worth violating the judicial - procedural code.

                        1) If it's not a secret - who and how brought the city to such a rampant crime?
                        2) When the government breaks the law it is even more scary than the criminals! This undermines the basics of law from the word at all.
                        3) When the law is violated in your respect, of course, based on well-meaning bully I think it will not be easier for you ...
                        4) you finally convinced me that you are not able to think and analyze events even one step ahead ... request
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        It was the same with the "troika", the legitimacy of whose existence you, without hesitation, do not recognize

                        I understand the contents of the article of the Constitution of 1937 on the judicial system of the RSFSR, do not you understand? bully
                      4. 0
                        8 November 2019 20: 59
                        Quote: ser56
                        - the collective farm is one of the forms of cooperatives - no more!

                        You could say that. It can be said - this is a community at the next stage in the development of society.
                        The community destroyed by Stolypin and against which your beloved fists fought.
                        Quote: ser56
                        And why was it impossible to let the fists create their own cooperatives?

                        You, despite your mind, have expressed ambiguity. Cooperatives made up of fists? Or does a fist organize a cooperative?
                        If the second, then just for that he, the fist, was not loved. He, his family and employees were both cooperative. But they did not like him, not because he created a cooperative, but because he mercilessly exploited hired workers. Because the fist and prevented the creation of collective farms, with the creation of the collective farm, he lost his wage workers. But, the hamish giant of thought is hard to understand. If at all possible. Allowing the fist to create a cooperative is to throw a pike into the river.
                        Quote: ser56
                        for example - in the USSR and under temporary detention facilities artels for gold mining were allowed - well, the country really needed it ..

                        I will surprise you - not only in gold mining. Sewing, leather, machine-building, etc., etc., etc., etc., The first television of the USSR was made (I do not remember exactly, it seems in 1938) by an artel. It is certainly difficult to call it a television in our understanding of the word. But, the first step in this direction has been taken. But, Mykita came and dispersed the artels, and nationalized their property (fixed assets).
                        Quote: ser56

                        but smart, successful and rich people are never loved by lazy people and fools, see the example of D. Schukar ... well, a true collective farmer - he will work ...

                        Sholokhov introduced the image of Shchukar into the novel in order to give the novel a certain color. So that the reader not only resents, worries, but also smiles and laughs. And you set Shchukar as a model of a collective farmer. Yes, flashed the mind, you will not say anything. Did you study with Bulgakov? He, too, in the image of Schwonder showed a party worker. It turned out ridiculously, but not truthfully. Schwonders of the state would not be built. And party workers built it.
                        I love and respect smart people, it’s interesting with them. Lucky ... attitude towards them - trifling (according to Mayakovsky) of the Rich - there’s nothing to love. Their wealth, at least in the first stage, is deception, cunning, bribery, blackmail, murder, exploitation.
                        Quote: ser56
                        1) You have a funny "logic"

                        You have a strange concept of logic. Do you even know what this word means?
                        Quote: ser56
                        1) If it's not a secret - who and how brought the city to such a rampant crime?
                        2

                        I’ll tell you a secret - war.
                        Quote: ser56

                        2) I hope you understand and realize that you are justifying the repression and robbery of innocent women and children ...

                        What you .... I do not justify anything, moreover, I condemn women and children. But, go down from heaven and take off your pink glasses - it’s impossible to go through the swamp and not get dirty. It is impossible to clean the Augean stables and not to smear. There are no revolutions without sacrifices.
                        Quote: ser56
                        2) When the government breaks the law it is even more scary than the criminals!

                        I gave an example of one specific case, and you raised all this to a power - the government violates the law !!!!! Ah-yay !!! Guard!!!
                        Quote: ser56

                        3) When the law is violated in your attitude, of course, on the basis of good intentions, I think it will not be easier for you ...

                        Tricky, however. Or were there no brains? Why generalize? To show how right you are and how wise? Not smart, as it turned out. It is about the fact that the offender is caught at the crime scene. Those. there is a crime and there is a criminal. The investigation does not even need to prove anything. Given the social, at that time, significance of the crime, the authorities considered it possible to violate the code of judicial procedure.
                        Everything, your mind has bored me. It’s not interesting with you. hi
                      5. 0
                        9 November 2019 14: 05
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Everything, your mind has bored me. It’s not interesting with you.

                        Naturally, nobody flogging the mind with rods! bully
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        The investigation doesn’t even have to prove anything

                        then what is the reason to formalize this by law? hi
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        the criminal is caught at the crime scene.

                        So the law protects the criminal from arbitrariness, as well as mistakes ...
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        To show how right you are and how wise? Not smart, as it turned out.

                        see above - you are again caught in stupidity ... bully
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        I gave an example of one specific case, and you raised all this to a power

                        and life consists of specific cases ... hi
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        It is impossible to clean the Augean stables and not to smear. There are no revolutions without sacrifices.

                        1) you do not know mythology well, Hercules did not get dirty when cleaning them ... bully
                        2) the revolution was in 1917, and we are talking about the fists ... many years have passed ... request
                        3) you are even worse than I thought - for you people - manure .... request
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        I’ll tell you a secret - war.

                        fools! the inability of the authorities to arrange front-line soldiers and restore order ... request
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Do you even know what this word means?

                        to flog you again? are you a masochist? bully
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        And you set Shchukar as a model of a collective farmer

                        and it is - Sholokhov - a genius ... hi and the collective farm chairman sent is a drunkard and a womanizer who does not understand anything in agriculture .... bully
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Their wealth, at least in the first stage, is deception, cunning, bribery, blackmail, murder, exploitation.

                        fi, banality ... if not a secret - whom did Bill Gates deceive?
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        It turned out ridiculously, but not truthfully.

                        1) It is worth learning from Bulgakov ...
                        2) Pure truth - see Crocodile or Central Committee resolutions, even VIL wrote about party bureaucrats ... bully
  13. -16
    30 October 2019 16: 06
    Hmm ... The fewer people left who really remember Stalin, the sweeter the hymns in his honor.
    And the "wind of history" is such a thing - who blows stronger, has the wind.
  14. +6
    30 October 2019 16: 10
    Dear author ... in my opinion, groups have already clearly formed in VO that are divided opposite to each other to the figure of Stalin and his affairs and that period of the history of our country. Articles appear with great regularity and by and large about the same thing, and now she, the article, in general, about what? Few people doubt the greatness of Stalin as leader and about those affairs and the breakthrough that our country made .... yesterday, for example, was 90 years old to Evgeny Primakov .. and not a single article or article, but a worthy person
    1. +1
      30 October 2019 16: 54
      Well, the role of Primakov in the events of recent years is difficult to objectively assess. He is presented as that "tower" of the Kremlin, which was categorically against military assistance to Donbass.
      What role the undoubtedly educated and educated gentlemen Primakov, Lavrov, Chernomyrdin played in history will hardly tell us. Politics are not aphorisms, they are financial flows, control over the security forces .... So about a dead woman ... better than "nothing". bully
      1. 0
        30 October 2019 21: 01
        Quote: samarin1969
        Well, the role of Primakov in the events of recent years is difficult to objectively evaluate.

        Time will pass will be appreciated. After the death of Churchill, a plaque was erected in London on which they wrote "There will be a monument to Churchill". Was not interested in whether or not.
    2. +1
      30 October 2019 17: 21
      Andrei, but this is in vain ...
      Arguments! Do you understand? Arguments!
      Alexander Suvorov answered you just above. My brains would boil, coming up with a worthy answer for you. And he answered in such a way that I subscribe to his every word. Returning to the personality of the leader again and again, we, his supporters, are sharpening our weapon - the "FOR" arguments.
      With your permission, I will continue to read the forum further.
    3. +2
      30 October 2019 17: 37
      Primakov was from Andropov’s nest. Like Yakovlev, Shevarnadze, Gorbachev. We remembered something for saving the Russian economy in 1998, but he had a hand like no other to the very collapse of the USSR and such a deplorable state of Russia. Not everything is so simple ...
    4. -1
      1 November 2019 13: 34
      Quote: Andrey VOV
      Few doubt the greatness of Stalin

      as well as in his crimes and nonsense ... request
  15. +1
    30 October 2019 16: 12
    God save! Excellent article on a relevant topic. Answers to the questions of today. .... It is necessary to teach the people. Many do not know about the existence of strict LAWS in state building, in socio-political life, in economic development. Amateurs are amateurs. Who intentionally, who from ,, great mind ,,. And wasted precious time is wasted. Not for building ,, house of cards, released
  16. +11
    30 October 2019 16: 21
    Whoever defames Stalin defames Russia. Whoever defames Russia is the enemy of the people.
    1. +3
      30 October 2019 16: 30
      Many without you - lost touch!
    2. -2
      1 November 2019 13: 39
      Quote: avia12005
      Whoever defames Stalin defames Russia. Whoever defames Russia is the enemy of the people.

      1) do not make yourself an idol ... wink
      2) Stalin and Russia are things loosely connected ... he is from Georgia and rules in the USSR ... bully
      3) the search for enemies of the people leads to the fact that the majority of "seekers", at best, spend many years in places not so remote ... request I recommend to think about it ... hi
  17. -14
    30 October 2019 16: 38
    Baaa, how many Stalin-lovers gathered here. I’m wondering if they would agree to live under their beloved Stalin in 1930 in the Soviet village, just during the dispossession period? Drive with your family to Narym, lose your loved ones- children and the elderly from scurvy? Or to discuss with the honest and professional NKVD investigator about the unscrupulous denunciation on the basis of which you were pulled out of bed at two in the morning? I would like to send all respected commentators posting pictures with clever words of the great leader to His time. Too bad this is impossible.
    1. +11
      30 October 2019 16: 40
      You turn off emotions. Who built factories and hydroelectric power plants in 30 if millions were sitting at that time? Do not read Solzhenitsyn at night.
      1. -5
        30 October 2019 16: 58
        You said it yourself about millions. Not my words. But from your question does not follow the judgment that you are hinting at. Someone was sitting, and someone was working. Don't you allow this?
      2. +7
        30 October 2019 16: 58
        avia12005 (Yuri)
        You turn off emotions. Who built factories and hydroelectric power plants in 30 if millions were sitting at that time? Do not read Solzhenitsyn at night.
        It’s useless; he has no cure for it. To read it, so there alone three troopers shot half the country, well, and hydroelectric power stations were naturally built by convicts, who should be shot right after the end of work ... lol
      3. -3
        30 October 2019 17: 10
        Who sat he built. The most difficult work on the construction of factories, hydroelectric power stations, water utilities was performed by prisoners. There are positive and negative sides, and one cannot exist without the other.
        1. +1
          31 October 2019 07: 19
          Well yes. Stalin somehow (like nobody says) managed to repeal the laws of history, according to which slave-owning society has lower productivity and labor efficiency, and there is no interest of workers in improving the quality.
          1. 0
            3 November 2019 13: 58
            Prisoners were digging the Volga-Don canal, Belomor channel is the channel through which the pilots are also prisoners. From hes also. And what am I wrong in? Under Stalin, no one was sitting, everyone was working. On the one hand, this is good, on the other hand, not everyone was happy. Something like this.
    2. +1
      30 October 2019 17: 02
      You fall into the poor and warmly support dispossession laughing And if you enter the local councils, you can reduce the scores to the noise good
      Dear, if you have already started to convict, so start over again, or rather from the 1927 bread strike.
      1. -7
        30 October 2019 17: 13
        Yes please. It was just here in Altai in 1928 that Stalin came to us, agitated the peasants to hand over bread at state prices, that is, for nothing. I realized that it wouldn’t work out, so the next year the epic began with a forced drive to the collective farm. On the collective farm, it’s not on the market, I set the grain plan, and go, with red banners on the elevator!
        1. -2
          30 October 2019 18: 43
          Of course, of course, think of bread on cards in 1930, it receives 26 million people (~ 50 million including family members), your pocket is closer to the body good
          1. -9
            30 October 2019 19: 14
            Do not flatter yourself, the people were driven into collective farms, not in order to feed the city, you needed free grain to sell it for currency. After complete collectivization, when all the grain on the collective farms was completely cleaned up, a terrible famine of 1932-33, millions of victims, cases of mass cannibalism throughout the country came. So continue to justify the monster?
            1. 0
              30 October 2019 19: 48
              Quote: Rimlianin
              cases of mass cannibalism throughout the country.


              You climbed into someone else's garden. By cannibalism, another comrade reigns here. Not good. Take another topic.
            2. -1
              30 October 2019 21: 50
              I will tell you a little secret, about which if they told us, then a little. The main goal of collectivization is to free up labor for the rapidly growing industry. Drive part of the peasants from the ground and turn them into workers. Otherwise, we would be crushed.
              1. +1
                31 October 2019 12: 34
                Quote: AS Ivanov.
                The main goal of collectivization is to free up labor for the rapidly growing industry.

                Not only this. Stalin was well aware that collective farms would reduce the cost of agricultural products and increase their volumes, which was brilliantly confirmed by the example of the United States, where a huge number of farmers give something about 7-8 percent of all agricultural products. But more than 90% come from large farms, which make up only 5-7% of the total number of those engaged in agriculture in the United States. At least approximately such statistics were in the USA during the existence of the USSR, but I do not think that it has changed now. So Stalin was ahead of the rest when he realized that the future lies with large producers of agricultural products, i.e. he turned out to be a visionary in understanding what the future of agriculture is.
                1. -2
                  1 November 2019 13: 42
                  Quote: ccsr
                  So Stalin was ahead of the rest when he realized that the future lies with large producers of agricultural products, i.e. he turned out to be a visionary in understanding what the future of agriculture is.

                  something agricultural under Stalin did not develop in the USSR, yields were worse than in RI ... request
            3. 0
              31 October 2019 08: 15
              After complete collectivization, when all the grain on the collective farms was completely cleaned up, a terrible famine of 1932-33, millions of victims, cases of mass cannibalism throughout the country came.

              Lies, famine was in the areas with the greatest shortages of bread. It got to the point that hidden foods were found among those who died of starvation.
              1. 0
                1 November 2019 13: 43
                Quote: strannik1985
                It got to the point that hidden foods were found among those who died of starvation.

                fools do not sow, do not reap - they themselves are born .. request They just read the Short Course of the CPSU hi
      2. -10
        30 October 2019 17: 14
        It's funny to you?
    3. -7
      30 October 2019 20: 26
      Quote: Rimlianin
      I would like to send all respected commentators posting pictures with clever words of the great leader to His time. Too bad this is impossible.

      There is an option. DPRK
    4. 0
      1 November 2019 13: 40
      Quote: Rimlianin
      In the Stalin year, in 1930 in the Soviet countryside, just in the time of dispossession? Drive with your family to Narym,

      my grandfather's biography ... request who, by the way, took Crimea from the whites in 1920 ... such a squiggle ... request
    5. 0
      4 November 2019 15: 45
      Quote: Rimlianin
      I would like to send all respected commentators posting pictures with clever words of the great leader to His time. Too bad this is impossible.

      That is why you are judging him from the perspective of today. And imagine yourself in his place, taking into account all the realities of international politics, the domestic economic, political, social situation, is not fate? You can only imagine yourself in the place of the innocently repressed, but in the place of Stalin there are not enough brains?
  18. +3
    30 October 2019 16: 49
    Ambiguous historical personality. But he left the state powerful, did not let it disappear. The trouble is that the heirs were useless.
    1. -14
      30 October 2019 17: 00
      What is this powerful state that was actually manually controlled and scattered thirty and a few years after his death?
      1. +3
        30 October 2019 17: 12
        Why it crumbled, and whether it was possible to preserve it, one can argue.
        And was the Red Project originally viable? Nobody has proposed another real project.
        1. -9
          30 October 2019 17: 48
          Which project? Do you know that before World War I Russia grew at a pace no less than in Stalin's industrialization? That the first to feed the country with bread was not Stalin, but Nicholas II? What exactly did mass famines go under the past under Nicholas, and under Stalin they resumed again, and this despite the increase in agricultural mechanization?
          1. +1
            30 October 2019 19: 50
            Quote: Rimlianin
            Which project? Do you know that before World War I Russia grew at a pace no less than in Stalin's industrialization? That the first to feed the country with bread was not Stalin, but Nicholas II? What exactly did mass famines go under the past under Nicholas, and under Stalin they resumed again, and this despite the increase in agricultural mechanization?


            Olgovich? Or is it still someone covered?
            1. -1
              1 November 2019 13: 45
              Quote: sergo1914
              Or is it still someone covered?

              and read the statistics book for 1913 - you will discover a lot of new things for yourself ... if you want. of course! feel
              Quote: Rimlianin
              grew at a rate no less than in Stalin's industrialization

              while the level of consumption remained at the level of 70%, and in the 1st five-year period fell to 40 ... request
          2. +1
            30 October 2019 20: 04
            mass famines in the past,
            as well?
            http://www.domarchive.ru/history/part-1-empire/61
            or as
            https://pikabu.ru/story/_nikolay_ii__tragediya_rossiirastochitelstvo_tsarskoy_semivelikiy_golod_v_rossii_5932347
            If you are lying about the Bloody. it means lying about Stalin. So you always lie.
          3. +7
            30 October 2019 20: 09
            Where does this information come from?
            According to various estimates, in 1901-1912. about 8 million people died from hunger and its consequences. The tsarist government was concerned about how to hide the scale of the famine. In the press, censorship prohibited the use of the word "hunger", replacing it with the word "crop failure".
            One can doubt the concrete figures about the number of deaths from starvation, but one cannot doubt that hunger was a regular and widespread phenomenon in tsarist Russia.
            Despite the famine, grain was flowing from Russia to Europe (as now oil and gas also go to Europe, bypassing Russia). On average, 30% of the grain was exported annually. This means that the grain trade was a forced measure, and was not conducted because of its excess. The tsarist minister Vyshnegradsky, responding to accusations of selling bread abroad even during the famine in Russia, said from the rostrum of the State Duma: "We will not eat enough, but we will take it out!" This slogan was put into practice.
            Getting help for the hungry (hungry loan) was also difficult. The "hungry loan" was 1 pood of flour per month per adult and 1/2 pood of flour per child. The following categories of the rural population were excluded from the recipients of the "starvation loan":
            - adults aged 18 to 55 years (they say, there is nothing to feed parasites);
            - ownerless peasants (that is, 3,5 million families, usually laborers);
            - widows and orphans, they were supposed to be fed by the rural society "from the surplus of aid."
            Thus, the most defenseless strata of society were doomed to starvation. Where does the starving village have a surplus? Moreover, the received "starvation loan" subsequently had to be returned. In 1911 more than 20 million rubles were collected from the starving Samara province. arrears for "hunger loans" of previous years. How many people in 1911-1912 killed "starvation loans" received in 1901-1902. 1905, 1906, 1907, 1908 ...
            In 1906, the Volga provinces suffered the most: Samara, Kazan, Ufa, Simbirsk and Saratov, and from the interior: Tambov, Nizhny Novgorod, Penza. The bread harvest was so bad that it could not be harvested or mowed, but had to be pulled out by the roots by hand. Sometimes the annual grain harvest for a family of 8 was 60 kg. The peasants ate rye bread baked with pea flour, "for volume" they mixed sawdust and even clay into the bread.
            The typhoid epidemic started from such nutrition. Masses of hungry people went from villages to cities to earn money. There were cases of suicides of people who could not find either food or work. Thanks to the assistance of local authorities and the Red Cross, free dining rooms and food outlets were opened, giving out 270 million meals and rations during the disaster.
            The famine of 1911 again brought disaster to the village. In the summer there was intense heat, drought, hot winds, dry winds, especially in the Volga region and on the Don. Winter 1911-1912 with snowstorms and an unusual spring flood of rivers further worsened the situation. Only one third of the crop was harvested versus the average.
            A crop failure covered the entire Volga region (from the Lower to Astrakhan), the Kama region, the Urals and Western Siberia.
            Help had to be provided in 60 provinces, especially in Samara, Orenburg, Perm, and also in the Don region.
            Nicholas, on the contrary, sharply curtailed the rights of zemstvos to fight hunger, and in 1911 and 1912 he completely banned the participation of zemstvos, the Red Cross and charitable organizations in helping the hungry. Nicholas II issued a unique decree "On the preparation of bread from bard and straw flour, as it can replace the use of ordinary rye bread."
            The number of those in need, according to the most approximate estimates, amounted to 8,2 million people. A prominent physician-publicist, Chairman of the Pirogov Society Zhbankov wrote: "Diseases and cases of starvation, ruin and widespread begging, mutilation of the moral image - robbery, arson, trafficking in children and themselves, suicides and complete physical and spiritual prostration - all this brings with them crop failures in Russia".
            And only in 1911 the tsarist ministers for the first time decided to import grain to fight hunger.
          4. -3
            30 October 2019 20: 28
            Quote: Rimlianin
            What exactly under Nicholas mass famines went into the past

            Really?
            Speaking of that.
            Quote: Rimlianin
            scattered over thirty years after his death?

            Do you see any problem here? Attached to Nicholas II?
      2. 0
        4 November 2019 15: 51
        Quote: Rimlianin
        What is this powerful state that was actually manually controlled and scattered thirty and a few years after his death?

        And, in your opinion, what administration should the state be under? Not really on foot, electric, mechanical or some other? And where is Russia today? And maybe that's why things in Russia are going neither shaky nor badly, because the control is not manual, but "some other"?
  19. +1
    30 October 2019 16: 57
    He was ambiguous. BUT! In a hostile environment, he not only saved the country of the Soviets, but also broke the ridge of the united Nazi Europe. And then, about a knee, he broke the millionth Kwantung army! This is approximately the size of the USSR Armed Forces before WWII ...
    1. -14
      30 October 2019 17: 16
      He did not break, but his generals and soldiers. But he did not trust his generals before the Battle of Stalingrad, he considered everyone to be fools. And do not forget about the almost complete destruction of the command staff before the war. This is not a sabotage against your country. You whitewash a criminal, a bandit. By the way, I also went through a period of enthusiasm for Stalin, I have it in the past. You need to think and face the facts.
      1. +1
        30 October 2019 18: 15
        All this is debatable.
        1. -7
          30 October 2019 18: 24
          So sporting. Give the facts. Only, the fact that the army was beheaded before the war is known to all and there is nothing to argue about. And to destroy the command staff of the armed forces in the prewar period can only a traitor or paranoid.
          1. +7
            30 October 2019 18: 45
            Yes you are just a set of myths laughing Decapitated from the loss of 4% of the officers?
            The training manual is outdated, it is necessary to update.
            1. -4
              30 October 2019 19: 04
              And if these 4% are all corps commanders, almost all divisional commanders and brigades? So it’s you throwing the dust out of your head. Stalin, in his paranoid fear of a conspiracy of the military, destroyed almost the entire high command of the Red Army before the war.
              1. +2
                31 October 2019 08: 13
                And if these 4% are all corps commanders, almost all divisional commanders and brigades?

                Opponent, let it be known to you that before 1939 there were 112 formations in the Red Army (rifle, cavalry, tank-4 MK brigade personnel), by June 22, 1941 there were 303. By order of the General Military Command of June 29, 1941, the formation of 15 SD for account of border guards, according to the order of the State Defense Committee of July 8, 1941 - another 56 SDs, 10 CDs and 25 DNOs, i.e. Only 106 new compounds. Instead of 4887 thousand people according to MP-41, military men of 14 ages were called up, the total number of which was about 10 million people. Until December 31, 821 equivalent divisions were formed or reorganized (483 infantry divisions, 73 tank divisions, 31 motorized divisions, 101 cavalry divisions and 266 tank, infantry and ski brigades). In this situation, repression does not play any role whatsoever.
          2. -4
            30 October 2019 20: 31
            Quote: Rimlianin
            only the traitor or paranoid can destroy the command staff of the armed forces in the prewar period.

            Read this
            https://military.wikireading.ru/9472
            and try to explain what you mean by decapitation of the army.
          3. +1
            30 October 2019 22: 23
            To argue, you must first decide on what materials the argument is. I am not a historian, I first studied history according to Khrushchev, like all those present. Now other points of view are being spoken out. To avoid clear claims, my family was repressed, so the initial attitude towards Stalin was negative. But gradually the picture began to affect another, more complex. Therefore - to what extent will we judge the affairs of Stalin?
          4. -1
            4 November 2019 16: 04
            Quote: Rimlianin
            And to destroy the command staff of the armed forces in the prewar period can only a traitor or paranoid.

            First, you will decide whether it was the "command staff" or the conspirators?
            The fact that they plotted against Stalin is known and proven to everyone except you.
            And you want to say that they would have fought well and courageously with the Germans for the one whom they wanted to overthrow? Yes, they would certainly seize the moment to do this. And to decapitate the country during the war ... it means surrendering to the mercy of the winner.
            So, claiming that Stalin is paranoid, look in the mirror. Paranoid wars do not win. There is no such example in the history of earthly civilization. Maybe there was such an incident on Alpha Centauri, but he is unknown to us.
      2. -2
        30 October 2019 19: 14
        You know, the commander-in-chief is Stalin. Not Zhukov, not Rokossovsky. namely Dzhugashvili. And for cleaning the ranks ... From whom, from Tukhachevsky for example ?! Well, damn it, I’ll remind you who exactly barked that PP is a police weapon, for example like that. And so it BECAME a policeman:
        https://afirsov.livejournal.com/377850.html
        The gunners create a fire roll, that is ... a 2-3 minute fire attack at the enemy’s position, attacking units attack behind the fire roll 200 meters away [Mortar strike at 200 meters from infantry is not dangerous]. ... The enemy ... can’t retaliate at all ... or lead it with limited means. At this time ... infantry and tanks make a 200-meter leap and from the new position open intense fire at the enemy. "
        V. Chuykov “From Beijing to Berlin”

        Late such commanders shot! Just according to the instructions of the Germans, for example, a single fire from rifles and fire from submachine guns is conducted exactly 200 meters, the distance to the fire shaft
        So the sport. Give the facts.

        Well. give, edrena louse? Al Chuykov are you not good? Filatova paraphrasing
        1. -9
          30 October 2019 19: 21
          You built your theory on Tukhachevsky alone? Yes strong.
          1. -2
            30 October 2019 21: 17
            You didn’t build on anyone at all. Hiley Likely
  20. +4
    30 October 2019 17: 26
    Great person.
  21. +10
    30 October 2019 18: 10
    After my death, a lot of garbage will be put on my grave, but the wind of history will mercilessly dispel it.

    Absolutely right. Stalin was not only shrewd - he was one of the greatest people not only in the history of mankind, but even in the history of Russia. Fortunately, Putin is a Stalinist crypto-communist. Yes, that's right, and do not rush to throw rotten tomatoes, but read the "crypto" prefix again. So far, he does not have the opportunity to throw into the trash the history of local capitalists, which he needs until 2021, for a joint confrontation with a common very powerful Western enemy. But after the central event of this century - the last liberal world financial and economic crisis in 2021 and the collapse of the United States, Putin, or rather his son, is discharging his yesterday's fellow travelers from EdRa. A return to communism will begin. To real communism-Stalinism, and not to the garbage dump that began to be built after the assassination of Stalin in 1953

    Believe it or not, I don't care
    1. 0
      30 October 2019 18: 21
      You have cockroaches ... I think Putin would have laughed for a long time if he had read such a thing to himself ...
      1. +9
        30 October 2019 19: 14
        I think he would be very interested in who I am and how I know it if I read to myself such
    2. Alf
      +3
      30 October 2019 20: 14
      Quote: Armata T-14
      Putin, or rather his son,

      He has two daughters.
      There was one inadequate (otherwise banned), which proved to everyone that Putin has a son, or rather, not a son, but a body into which his soul will soon be inhaled. You're back ? Familiar words.
      1. +1
        31 October 2019 12: 55
        He has two daughters.

        Son is not in a genetic sense
        There was one inadequate (otherwise banned), which proved to everyone that Putin has a son, or rather, not a son, but a body into which his soul will soon be inhaled. You're back ? Familiar words.

        Yes. Returned the Internet to a psychiatric hospital
        1. Alf
          +1
          31 October 2019 19: 44
          Quote: Armata T-14
          He has two daughters.

          Son is not in a genetic sense
          There was one inadequate (otherwise banned), which proved to everyone that Putin has a son, or rather, not a son, but a body into which his soul will soon be inhaled. You're back ? Familiar words.

          Yes. Returned the Internet to a psychiatric hospital

          You have confirmed my suspicions ...
    3. -3
      30 October 2019 20: 35
      Quote: Armata T-14
      Putin, or rather his son, is disposing of his fellow travelers from EdR. A return to communism will begin.

      Putin, they say, has very late sons, no?
      1. +1
        31 October 2019 12: 56
        I don’t know, like he doesn’t have genetic sons
        1. -2
          31 October 2019 13: 59
          Quote: Armata T-14
          I know, like genetic sons he doesn’t have

          Everyone says.
  22. +4
    30 October 2019 18: 15
    GREAT RUSSIAN LAND has never been deprived of HEROES with unbending will, the spirit of which cannot be broken, and the mind cannot be enslaved. It was they who forged her greatness. And even after death, they remained the guiding light for many generations and the detonator of animal fear for all enemies and ill-wishers.

    That is why true patriots remember Stalin with nostalgia, and enemies are afraid of the appearance of a personality comparable to him in scale. At the same time, external adversaries openly denigrate the image of the great leader, and local Judas do not hesitate to speculate on them. In view of the wretchedness and insignificance of the "gourmets of Russia" and the complete absence of achievements with a "plus" sign, they try to ascribe all his merits, like the conquests of the entire Soviet people, to themselves and appropriate all victories, up to the GREAT one, although as the successors of the Vlasovites have a completely opposite attitude (in 1945 they would hang out on the gallows with other accomplices of fascism). As well as all the shit that happens to Russia and in Russia is technically presented as a "damned Stalinist / Soviet legacy." They are thin, thieving and cowardly in comparison with Joseph Vissarionovich. Therefore, they drape the Mausoleum on May 9, fear the Red Banner, rewrite History, open monuments to murderers and traitors. And that is why the broadcast on TV of any program about the GREAT USSR and its achievements are always diluted with a stinking slurry in the form of Brehunitsyn, Vlasov, Rezun and other "offended by the regime" abomination. They are always in a hurry to "spoil the air" so as not to let people "breathe deeply" and soberly assess what is happening.
    Alexander, thanks for the article and the cycle as a whole! hi good
  23. -5
    30 October 2019 18: 29
    A graduate of a theological seminary, who became an underground radical, then headed the personnel department of the ruling Communist Party and through this seized absolute power in the country ... a professional, what can I say .. a genius in all fields ..
    1. +5
      30 October 2019 22: 38
      Stalin read 100 pages every day. serious books, so that he certainly possessed both broad and deep knowledge.
  24. -7
    30 October 2019 18: 34
    It was, and above all, that Stalin was to blame for the devastation of the 27 million dead.
    It was he who did not bring the army into full combat readiness in May. It was because of his erroneous conclusions that the attack was "unexpected" and the army was not ready for it. That is why 25 thousand tanks could not cope with 3 thousand German tanks.
    The result is known: instead of cross-border battles with relatively small fights, 4 years of grief, death, suffering and destruction.
    1. -1
      4 November 2019 16: 14
      Quote: ezdiumno ru

      It was, and above all, that Stalin was to blame for the devastation of the 27 million dead.
      It was he who did not bring the army into full combat readiness in May. It was because of his erroneous conclusions that the attack was "unexpected" and the army was not ready for him

      Now, if you were in his place, then yes ... We would start the war in Berlin and end it there.
      Yes ... It’s good that you weren’t there then, there would be more than one traitor.
  25. +2
    30 October 2019 18: 41
    Quote: Chit
    Both of my grandfathers who died in the Second World War were no less patriots. And they have the right to ask the question: how did it happen that the great leader and best friend of the military and all the others miscalculated so much with the outbreak of war?
    On what basis did he consider only his opinion to be the only true one? Why the fifth grader in June 41 could ask himself: what will happen if Hitler still attacks first?
    But the great strategist did not even allow such a thought. He believed that he had outwitted everything. Although the position was obliged to provide for all war scenarios, including the most negative.
    And what is the result?
    Unheard of rout of the entire personnel spacecraft in June 1941
    Tens of millions of dead Soviet soldiers and civilians. But there could be fewer of them ...

    Stalin did what he could! All hope is on you that you will do better!
  26. -3
    30 October 2019 18: 52
    All modern Stalinists, however, like all modern communists, love Stalin / socialism invented, and not reality ... But the reality of life in the USSR under Stalin was terrible ... A banal example of the lies of an illiterate article author:
    "In the field of economics, Stalin organized a crisis-free development of the national economy"
    in the economy of the USSR there was a continuous crisis due to the incompetent management of it - therefore there was a shortage of everything - from food to socks ... request
    in politics, Stalin is responsible for the mass repressions against the peasantry, which de facto destroyed the Russian village ... but they did not destroy the Georgian, this is the question of internationalism ... request
    and he is also responsible for the defeat of the Red Army in 1941 ... because in 20 years he created an army, the officers and soldiers of which simply did not know how to fight with a trusted weapon ... request and this being able to use the personnel potential of the RIA - which fought well, including in 1MV - you can simply compare the losses of the armies of the GM and AB on the Eastern Front and the RIA ... hi
    In short, this is a disease of our people of a certain worldview, directed backward, which the tyrants in power consider great, because kneel before them ...
    but in fact, in his youth, Stalin was a terrorist, the same Basayev, but by the will of fate he was elevated to the rulers of Russia ... alas .. recourse
    1. -10
      30 October 2019 19: 28
      I support. Especially about the Russian village. It was Stalin who pushed collectivization with dispossession. You bastard. There were other opinions in the party, many proposed not to create impoverished collective farms, but to support affluent farms with loans and agricultural machinery. But they were declared right-wing deviators, their fate is sad. Bukharin is an example.
      1. +6
        30 October 2019 21: 20
        that you are all moaning about the Russian village. unclear. they themselves lived in the village? even in the Soviet, worked on a collective farm, or on a state farm? what, you know something about her. and it’s not necessary to make peasants from the beginning of the 20th century, such angels with wings will not work. praise the king of mediocrity, well, well. but tell me how the Orthodox peasantry, which in the 13th year glorified the centenary of the Romanov’s house, with the ringing of bells, and services in the church, went to smash after 5 years, the same churches, having completely forgotten, both the tsar and the same church. for some reason, he slipped into World War I, mediocrely led it, and generally ended with two revolutions in 17. and then what? recall? and then there was a civil war, which incidentally unleashed the outskirts of R.I., malorosiya, Baltic, Caucasus and others. and away we go, went for three years, and it was the peasantry that took an active part in this war. how is it in one well-known film, - beat the whites until they turn red, hit the red ones until they turn white, something like that, and after P.M., the civil war, when the people have a lot of weapons in their hands, how to rebuild the state? when also the peasantry, dividing the land of the landowners, did not want any power over themselves. and the country had to be raised. it is now human rights, etc., and then what? then life was not worth anything. in another country there was no reassurance.
        1. -1
          31 October 2019 01: 55
          You yourself decided, and you yourself believe in this nonsense. By the end of the 20s, everything had long been quiet and calm. The NEP gave the peasants land, they gave it a hundredfold and the output of agricultural products almost returned to the volume of 1913. For greater economic growth, the village needed a tractor. But the Soviet government did not want to give it to a wealthy peasant who produced the most. And what to give, the volume of production of agricultural machinery was then small. It was necessary to establish economic ties between the city and the countryside, create schemes for the exchange of agricultural products for equipment, through banks, through credit cooperatives. But this is a departure from socialism, a right deviation. Therefore, they chose a simpler path - to drive the peasants with land to the collective farm, take all the equipment that they had from the wealthy peasants and transfer them to these impoverished farms. Then, at the expense of the almost complete robbery of collective farms, gradually saturate them with technology. And whoever disagrees - in Narym and sprayed. This is how they broke the Russian village over the knee. It could have been different. But they didn’t want to, and they didn’t know how. And about what I know about the village - yes, I live in the village (village), all my ancestors up to the fifth generation are peasants. In my area alone, more than 30 villages and towns became extinct from the consequences of the Stalinist modernization of agriculture. Tens of thousands across the country. But in many of them people have lived for centuries. All the kings survived, and even the "bloody" one. But the mustache did not survive.
          1. +6
            31 October 2019 07: 44
            but what do you say by the age of 20 everything has settled down.? for the valid one you wish. turn to the documents ....... In addition, the peasants resorted to individual terror - in 1924 313 terrorist acts were recorded, in 1925 - 902, in 1926 - 711, in 1927 - 901, for 7 months of 1928 - 1049, in 1929 - 8278 (as you can see, the process went on increasing - N.S.).
            In these acts, the leaders of the Soviet government saw a political background, and the village terror was called "kulak" (this point of view was most actively defended by LB Kamenev and GY Sokolnikov, AI Rykov had a more balanced position).

            In 1929, 255 counter-revolutionary organizations were liquidated, 9159 people were arrested, 6769 counter-revolutionary groups were arrested, 38 people were arrested, and 405 “active individuals” were arrested; in all, 43 “counter-revolutionary formations were opened and 823 people arrested.”

            In addition, in 1926-1927. there were 63 mass demonstrations of peasants, in 1928 - 709, then in 1929 - 1190.
            That is, here the process went on increasing .. these are the pies obtained. in the 20-30s the peasants were for the most part illiterate and dense. didn’t they even hear of any literacy, even the primary one, from a word at all. and medicine in the village? and child mortality? read p.a.chekhov ,, notes of a rural doctor, which diseases had to be dealt with in the village, it’s horrible! nurseries of sexually transmitted diseases such as syphilis, etc. there was no basic hygiene. so, when I.V. STALIN began to conduct educational program, including in the countryside, mind you, first of all. Now say that you live in a village, but let me ask you a curiosity about what area? and that you are not moaning about the current peasantry now? for things in the present village are far worse than in the Soviet one. new fists, or miroedy, appeared, as they were called in the village, for example, a family of hoes. they squeezed the villagers, just hold on. or else it will be. and travel around the Pskov, Tver, Ivanovo, provinces, look into what villages, complete devastation, and desolation turned into ruined, and cowsheds, pigsties, machine yards, arable fields were overgrown with young birch trees. there you have it, and capitalism and other delights.
            1. -4
              31 October 2019 11: 18
              Non-chernozem - a zone of risky farming. Why carry out agricultural production in this region when it can be carried out with great success in a more favorable area? You can, of course, grow tomatoes in the Arctic, as long as these tomatoes are golden. Artificially support unprofitable agriculture? What for?
              1. +4
                31 October 2019 15: 07
                then there is no need to discuss here, the peasantry, and the millions of dispossessed people ... Non-Black Earth - a zone of risky agriculture. Why carry out agricultural production in this region when it can be carried out with great success in a more favorable area? ......... but nothing that the non-black soil is the heart of Russia? where did the Russian land come from? that's how it turns out — the damned communists, led by STALIN, tried to support the non-black soil, introduced livestock farms, sowed rye, barley, flax, because the wheat wasn’t there very much, it yielded crops, they built a lot of technical schools, vocational schools, so that people could do business were engaged, and those who moan about dispossession, and the ruined peasantry, say, "why to conduct agricultural production in this region." yes, there’s nothing to say. and who is the enemy of the peasantry?
                1. -3
                  31 October 2019 15: 27
                  Do we have the peasantry for the sake of the peasantry itself, or, nevertheless, for the sake of production? Let me remind you: the most impoverished peasant in the Republic of Ingushetia was precisely in the non-chernozem zone. There are separate crops such as flax and potatoes that can be produced in the Northwest. For everything else - the black earth and the South of Russia. With current technology, they will feed us well, and in abundance. Occupy people initially unproductive labor? And what will be the level of their salaries in case of unprofitable production?
                  1. +3
                    31 October 2019 22: 44
                    Well, what can I say in your words about profitability and the level of salaries in the countryside. you argue as a capitalist, or as the same one, a fist, there is no profit, no, and there is no business, no point. so did the landlords in the 16th century in Britain. need pasture under the sheep, down with the peasant from the ground. and that the land was the only source of food, the Lord was not interested. so did the kulaks in Russia, not cost-effectively, and went anywhere. Of course, they went to the city, but the city could not provide everyone with work then, it was simply not for everyone. there were uprisings, and starvation, etc. all this west passed before us, and made conclusions. as Comrade STALIN said ......... "We are 50-100 years behind the advanced countries. We have to run this distance in 10 years. Either we will do it, or they will crush us ........ and we have neither kings, they have not dealt with this problem for 300 years, nor the bourgeois who came in February 17. Only the Bolsheviks solved this problem. During collectivization, millions of peasants rushed into the city, and the Soviet government employed them all, while not forgetting those who remained in the village, creating MTS, building hospitals, schools, etc., etc. you say ..... the poorest peasant in the Republic of Ingushetia was in the non-chernozem zone ... and look what provinces under R.I were starving ... From May 1891, a severe drought broke out with cold, and in the summer it was already real heat, in the south and southeast, accompanied by dry winds. As a result, a complete crop failure comprehended the provinces of Voronezh, Vyatka, Kazan, Kursk, Nizhny Novgorod, Orenburg, Oryol, Saratov, Simbirsk, Tambov, Tula and Ufa, as well as the Region of the Don army; in addition, they covered the territories of the provinces of Arkhangelsk, Astrakhan, Kaluga, Olonets, Poltava, Kostroma, Tobolsk, Kharkov, Kherson and the regions of Akmola, Turgai and Ural [2, p. 102]. In terms of scale, this was still the largest crop failure ......... and tell me where is the non-black soil here? The Pskov, Smolensk, Kalinin regions, under the Soviet regime, completely provided food, both Moscow, St. Petersburg, and their own regions .centers. so much for the profitable.
                    1. -1
                      1 November 2019 13: 29
                      Quote: Unknown
                      In May 1891, a severe drought broke with cold, and in the summer it was already a real heat

                      it happens... request only in 1931-32 there were no climatic anomalies ... but there was famine ... feel
                      1. +1
                        1 November 2019 19: 40
                        I will not argue with the obvious, but there was a famine in 31-32 years, but the reason was not in the Soviet regime, and collectivization, but in something else. turn to the documents .................. Kaganovich (member of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the Communist Party (Bolsheviks) in the 30s) said that the sowing failure was the cause of the famine in 1932/33. But he did not explain why this happened.

                        And the main reason for the sowing failure was the "quiet sabotage" of the peasants who joined the collective farms in the winter of 1931/32 and in the winter of 1930/31. It was 1931 and 1932 that peaked in the number of educated collective farms and in the number of members that joined them. At the same time, the peasants were accustomed to working for themselves and did not want to work for the collective farm. It was believed that let the neighbor work, since everything is common. It was not in their minds that the general result depended on everyone. And if after the “silent sabotage” in the spring and summer of 1931 the famine did not happen, it was only due to old reserves. Which in the winter of 1932/33 was gone. Hunger in most villages and villages in the European part of the USSR became inevitable. The 1932 crop amounted to 69.9 million tons, in 1931 - 69.5 million tons, that is, two lean years in a row led to the famine of 1932/33. For comparison, the 1930 crop - 83.7 million tons, the 1933 crop - 89.8 million tons; 1934 - 89.4 million tons; 1935 - 92 million tons. Moreover, if the cause of the poor harvest in 1931 was primarily drought, and then sabotage, then in 1932 it was sabotage, which grew significantly due to newly joined collective farms. Sabotage, both during sowing and in summer, and when harvesting ............ here is the first reason and there is a second ................ Many, succumbing to the propaganda of the kulaks, cut the cows upon joining the collective farms; cut everyone to the last. Meanwhile, after joining the collective farm, each family was allowed to keep one cow. In a hungry winter, a cow with its milk and sour cream, butter and yogurt would save from starvation. But the breadwinner was cut. The number of cows in the USSR decreased from 26 million by the beginning of 1930 to 19 million by the beginning of 1933. Even more than cows, oxen and horses were cut, which affected the quality of the sowing in 1932. Crop areas were reduced, in addition, they did not meet the deadlines. Sow dragged on until the end of June. The number of horses was reduced from 30 million by the beginning of 1930 to 16 million by the beginning of 1933. The fact that they cut cattle, and especially cows, became the second main reason ................ here's the answer to your question.
                      2. 0
                        2 November 2019 00: 32
                        Quote: Unknown
                        the main reason for the sowing failure was the "quiet sabotage" of the peasants,

                        What rotten people came to the Bolsheviks, what will you do! These suicide by starvation over buried food, they simply do not sow out of harm, like the house of Greyjoy. The Bolsheviks tried to help them, they sent food by special food detachments, food detachments, but they still did not eat, they just buried it right away.
                      3. 0
                        2 November 2019 06: 54
                        It has already been said that it is not necessary for the peasants of those times to be measured by the standards of the present time. a lot of people could come to the Khodynka field, for free gingerbread cookies, and pass on to each other's death. and you probably live on the moon, and do not know our people. here we take an example from the recent past. in the middle of the current 90s, I observed in Bryansk, and the region, as people swept buckwheat, and sunflower oil from the shelves, both in the market and in stores. and then there was a speech, someone from the government, that these products are enough for everyone, and there is no need to make a fuss. the campaign went like this hype throughout the country. those who remember, let them specify in which exact year it was. such is our people, there will be no other. and that none of you wise men now laments about the dead villages, about the mass of scourges, and homeless people in the cities, but they are people from the villages. no need to nod to the past, it was despite the individual flaws, still good. but look at the present time.
                      4. 0
                        2 November 2019 13: 50
                        Quote: Unknown
                        already said

                        basically you write illiterate absurdities ... request
                        think about it - people were taken away from the people (Russian peasants) on the collective farm (read Sholokhov), they essentially introduced a new serfdom and cynically began to wonder why they did not sow ...
                        Remember who was appointed chairman of the Virgin Soil Uplift? That's right - a lumen with a pair of vests ... who first of all slept with the wife of a comrade-in-arms of the party, and his main comrade-in-arms was a worthless fool - grandfather Schukar ... bully Is it clear where the famine came from? hi
                      5. -1
                        2 November 2019 21: 17
                        m.a. Sholokhov must be carefully read, and not leafed over, and not choose characters, and bring under your fantastic fabrications. in addition to the above-mentioned characters, there are other people who are very clearly shown in the novel, this is the chairman of the village council of razmetny, and a blacksmith, and even such a class enemy as the Polovtsy. Incidentally, an episode with a sharp cattle is described there, how it happened, and who presented the idea. read carefully, then you may not be talking nonsense, although I doubt if the kettle is clogged with anti-Soviet, then this will be a long time.
                      6. +1
                        4 November 2019 14: 31
                        Quote: Unknown
                        m.a. Sholokhov must be carefully read,

                        exactly! I understand that there are no objections to the description I have described above? bully
        2. 0
          1 November 2019 13: 27
          Quote: Unknown
          what, you know something about her

          I talked with my grandfather - a peasant from Altai, exiled in 1930 to Narym ... so I know a lot of things ... hi
          Quote: Unknown
          and don’t need to do such peasants with wings from the peasants, beginning of the 20th century,

          these are your speculations, no more ... because you cannot deny the fact of the destruction of Russian peasants under Stalin ...
          they were not angels, but this is not the basis for mass repression ... request
          Quote: Unknown
          for some reason, he slipped into the First World War, mediocrely led her,

          compare the beginning of the 1MB and WWII ... as the RIA fought incomparably better. I didn’t run to the Volga ... request
          Quote: Unknown
          and then there was a civil war, which incidentally was unleashed on the outskirts of R.I.

          The Bolsheviks unleashed the Guards overthrew the Provisional Government ... then dispersed the elected Constituent Assembly ... request
          Quote: Unknown
          and the country had to be raised

          destroying the peasants? making hunger and malnutrition permanent in the USSR? The USSR began to live more or less satisfying only when purchasing grain abroad ... hi
          1. 0
            1 November 2019 20: 43
            I talked with my grandfather - a peasant from Altai, exiled in 1930 to Narym ... so I know a lot of things ........... let's not refer to those who are not. read the comments, there almost all opponents refer, sometimes to grandparents, then to grandfathers, who were necessarily dispossessed, or exiled. transmit these stories to children and grandchildren in the form of family traditions, but here is a serious conversation, and let's operate on the facts. and to talk about the village, you have to live there and work ............ these are your speculations, no more ... because you cannot deny the fact of the destruction of Russian peasants under Stalin ...
            they were not angels, but this is not the basis for mass repressions ............. you first deal with this word, and what it means. and here is what Comrade STALIN said about him ............... Punitive measure, punishment. Repression is a necessary element of the offensive, but an auxiliary element, and not the main one. Stalin (1930) ........... here at the present time there are no repressions against the peasants, but no, not peasants, not collective farmers. During the reign of Yeltsin and his heirs, the peasantry almost disappeared. as the previous comrade put it, it is not cost-effective ............. compare the beginning of WWI and WWII ... as the RIA fought incomparably better. to the Volga did not run .................... about how the tsarist army fought, then, vo. there are a lot of articles take an interest, and the kingdom of Poland was part of R.I. and it was occupied by the Germans in 1. if you take its size and add them to a distance from the borders, deep into the USSR, then where would the Germans be by the beginning of 1914? .............. Bolsheviks, because overthrew the Provisional Government ... then dispersed the elected Constituent Assembly ............. teach history please. When was the parliament created in Kiev? When was the hetman of Skoropadsky, began to create armed detachments to fight the Bolsheviks? When did the Baltic Limitrophs publish their declarations of independence? and Transcaucasia, and the Don, and the Kuban? ............ destroying the peasants? making hunger and malnutrition permanent in the USSR? The USSR began to live more or less satisfying only when purchasing grain abroad ........... how many peasants were in the USSR, and how many are now in RF? after the famine of 1915-31, everyone lived more or less satiated in the USSR. there were food problems after the war, but there were objective reasons for this. and they bought grain for livestock feed, by the way all countries do this.
            1. +1
              2 November 2019 14: 01
              "let's not refer to those that do not exist"
              did you live under Stalin? I don’t ... and I believe my grandfather, there was a smart man ... and a housekeeper ... exiled from the village of Beregovoye, Pankrushikhinsky district ... I have the NKVD protocols ... hi
              Quote: Unknown
              and here is a serious conversation

              with you? have fun ...
              "they were necessarily dispossessed, or exiled."
              4, 5 million were dispossessed of Zemskov ... 2 million were exiled ... hi
              "you first figure it out with this word" classic demagoguery about bully
              "then, v. o. there are a lot of articles, take an interest" I read in other sources, more serious ... but you - no!
              "then where would the Germans be by the beginning of 1915? .." you show a complete ignorance of the RIA's plans ... only stupid people from the Red Army are capable of defending the ledge, there were no such people in RIA ... request
              "When the Rada was created in Kiev? When the Hetman Skoropadsky began to create armed detachments to fight the Bolsheviks? When did the Baltic limitrophes publish their declarations of independence? And what about the Transcaucasus, and the Don, and the Kuban?"
              1) after the Bolshevik coup, Ukraine decided to become independent ... you yourself do not know the story .. request
              2) The independence of Finland was given by the Bolsheviks ...
              "how many peasants were in the USSR, and how many are now in RF"
              do you have a self-prop bully unlike the USSR, the Russian Federation now sells grain and products ... even meat in the USA ... bully
              "after the famine of 31-33 in the USSR, everyone lived more or less well enough" what kind of nonsense ...
              "And they bought grain for livestock feed, by the way, all countries do this." hmm, I've read the editorials of Truth bully
              1. +1
                2 November 2019 22: 10
                did you live under Stalin? I don’t ... and I believe my grandfather, there was a smart man ... and a housekeeper ... exiled from the village of Beregovoye, Pankrushikhinsky district ... I have the NKVD protocols. .......... of course it is necessary to trust grandfather, as without this. just how old were you that you listened so carefully to grandfather? here I am 56 years old, and I also had grandfathers, even two, also peasant, one in the Bryansk region. in the Goryatinsky district, the village is Kalinin, and the other in the Sumy region of the station is a fortune-teller, and I don’t remember, I told my grandfathers at 6-10 years old. so little things. and to tell a child in childhood how collectivization took place, why do they need it? what I will remember there .but you apparently have a great memory since childhood, commendable. but my dad is my 30th birthday, and my uncles are 28 years old, and 33 years old, that's what they said, I remember, and conversations about that time are very different from what my grandfather told you. about dispossessed people do not have to rush numbers, today it will not work. first 10 million, then 8 and now you're talking about two. How many peasants were dispossessed?
                "About 1 million 800 thousand kulaks were dispossessed and sent to the settlement," Spitsyn stated. "These are the figures of Viktor Nikolaevich Zemsky, a man of non-socialist views, more than a moderate liberal, our greatest historian and statistician, whose authority is indisputable."
                Taking into account that the population of the country at that time was about 160-163 million people, then in relative terms less than one and a half percent (1,1%) were dispossessed. "Of these, by the end of 1933," the historian clarified, "1 million 300 thousand people remained in the settlement, because 500 thousand either fled, or died, or were amnestied, that is, were found innocent and their let go. " The peasant population of Russia at that time was about 130 million people. What color of the peasantry was destroyed? "
                “The exploiters were destroyed,” the historian concluded, “who drank the juices of this peasantry. And Zemskov did not accidentally write his book, it was called“ Stalin and the people, why there was no uprising. ”There he proved on figures that no less than 85% the collective farm peasantry supported the policy of collectivization, supported the policy of eliminating the kulak as a class, i.e. Stalin's policy in the countryside was supported ......... to enlighten you a little, let me remind you when the so-called Rada was created ....... ... On March 16, 1917, the Ukrainian Central Rada (UCR), a national political center, was created in Kiev, which later became the first Ukrainian parliament to lead the national liberation movement of the Ukrainian people, and then the revived state - the Ukrainian People's Republic (UPR). And the latter want to discuss about P.M. flag in your hands, there are many topics about her, discuss our topic about something else.
                1. 0
                  4 November 2019 14: 46
                  Quote: Unknown
                  as without it. just how old were you that you listened so carefully to grandfather? here I am 56 years old

                  I am more experienced than you ... hi
                  "According to Zemskov, 4 million were dispossessed ... 5 million were exiled ..." - that's me ...
                  "" ~ 1 million 800 thousand kulaks were dispossessed and sent to the settlement, - stated Spitsyn, - these are the figures of Viktor Nikolaevich Zemsky, "this is you ...
                  By the way - did you read Zemsky’s works? I - yes! hi
                  “The exploiters were destroyed,” the historian concluded, “who drank the juices from this peasantry. "
                  that's why the famine has come ... your "historian" is a banal fool and a liar ... hi
                  Quote: Unknown
                  Stalinist policies in the countryside were supported ...

                  tales for ... bully uprisings took place in the country - up to 150 tons of people were executed ... request data of Zemsky himself ...
                  Quote: Unknown
                  I’ll remind you a little when the so-called parliament was created

                  you read - WHEN it was proclaimed by parliament ... expert ... bully
                  "Aftere Petrograd armed uprising in October 1917, the Central Rada refused to recognize the Council of People's Commissars of Soviet Russia and headed for the separation of Ukraine from Russia. "
                  bully
                  1. 0
                    5 November 2019 20: 11
                    I’m more experienced than you ............. whoever doubted this was understandable after the touching memories of your grandfather, you can refer to Sholokhov, and turn the zemstvo in the right direction on occasion. all the same, do you remind me of someone? look like Svanidze, not just blood with him?
                    1. 0
                      6 November 2019 16: 22
                      Quote: Unknown
                      all the same, do you remind me of someone?

                      I understand you have no arguments? bully
                      Quote: Unknown
                      not one blood then with him?

                      fi, and it's like a Stalinist-internationalist ... bully You feel sorry for you banal Russophobe ... request
                      1. 0
                        6 November 2019 20: 26
                        why russophobe? but hang labels right away, if something goes wrong, this is the habit of liberals. well, as for Svanidze and your similarities with him, then grandfather was also arrested and shot, as he says innocently. but in fact he was a well-known Trotskyist Bolshevik, and took an active part in the formation of Soviet power. grandfathers, you seem to be alike, I meant it by talking about blood. what did you have?
                      2. 0
                        8 November 2019 12: 51
                        Quote: Unknown
                        why russophobe?

                        you justify the arbitrariness of the NE in relation to the Russian people, however in relation to other peoples - also request Ergo - you are a Nazi ... hi

                        Quote: Unknown
                        but hang labels right away, if something goes wrong, this is the habit of liberals. well, what about Svanidze and your similarities with him

                        I hope you understand that you are labeling yourself? bully
                        I will note. I do not compare you with anyone, but simply analyze your texts ... request
                        Quote: Unknown
                        grandfathers, you seem to be alike, I meant it when we talked about blood.

                        1) my grandfathers are Russian - I’m proud of it, but I’m not boasting!
                        2) it never occurred to me to humiliate people of other nationalities!
                        3) you are not only a Russophobe, but also a Nazi and anti-Semite - however, this is natural for your level of mental development request People like you are a breeding ground for such views ... request
                        Quote: Unknown
                        Trotskyist Bolshevik

                        By the way - the difference in grades of shit does not interest me - delve into them yourself ... request
                      3. 0
                        11 November 2019 14: 34
                        you justify the arbitrariness of the NE in relation to the Russian people, however in relation to other peoples - also ...................... what arbitrariness are you talking about? what kind of arbitrariness is this if everything is done for the people? schools, hospitals, factories, free, or half-vouchers, in sanatoriums, free medicine, etc. are being built I will not list. then how to name what is doing now, your current power? ............... I note. I do not compare you with anyone, but simply analyze your texts ... didn’t you like the word liberal? I confess I am surprised ....................... 1) my grandfathers are Russian - I am proud of this, but I do not boast!
                        2) it never occurred to me to humiliate people of other nationalities! ..................... I also don’t boast, but I need to be Russian, and in spirit, and others I don’t humiliate nationality, but please take into account that I do not intend to endure attacks on my own. and the rest of your nonsense does not intend to discuss.
                      4. 0
                        12 November 2019 12: 48
                        Quote: Unknown
                        what arbitrariness are you talking about?

                        Bolsheviks ...
                        Quote: Unknown
                        if everything is done for the people?

                        Seriously? those. to dispossess 4,5 million and exile 2 million people - is this for their own good? request
                        Quote: Unknown
                        under construction, schools, hospitals

                        everything is free in jail - this is your ideal ... request
                        Quote: Unknown
                        didn't you like the word liberal?

                        1) I am not an esthetician, I am neutral towards all the words ... hi
                        2) what is the meaning of the word liberal? Alas, its original meaning is now distorted .... request
                        Quote: Unknown
                        I confess I'm surprised .....

                        what? bully
                        Quote: Unknown
                        that attacks on his own, does not intend to endure.

                        you are a slave in your soul and you justify Russophobia of the Bolsheviks ... request
                        Quote: Unknown
                        and the rest of your nonsense does not intend to discuss.

                        no arguments? hi
          2. 0
            4 November 2019 16: 34
            Quote: ser56

            these are your speculations, no more ... because you cannot deny the fact of the destruction of Russian peasants under Stalin ...

            Yes Yes. Only, for some reason, before collectivization, grain yields were, on average, as with the tsar, at the level of 3-7 centners. per hectare, and the peasants destroyed by Stalin began to collect from 12 to 17 c. per hectare.
            1. 0
              5 November 2019 16: 43
              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              Yes Yes. Only, for some reason, before collectivization, grain yields were, on average, as with the tsar, at the level of 3-7 centners. per hectare

              you have incorrect data .... catch the link for review https://burckina-faso.livejournal.com/973587.html
              in 1913 - 8,4 t / ha - under the king ...
              in 1928 - 8.1c / ha - before collectivization
              in 1940 - 8,6 kg / ha - before the war
              in 1953 - 7.8 kg / ha - death of the temporary detention facility
              in 1957 - 8.4 kg / ha - satellite :)
              So - under the USSR for 44 years there has been no increase in yield .... request
              Conclusion:
              "that before the war itself (WWII) there was no significant increase in yields and under the New Economic Policy, yields were generally higher than before the revolution and under Stalin. Proceeding from this, it is obvious that the growth of gross harvests under Stalin, in the 30s, was due to an increase squares. "
              1. 0
                5 November 2019 17: 18
                Quote: ser56
                you have incorrect data ....

                Or maybe you?
                The same, but for periods:
                Yield dynamics of grain crops of the RI-USSR (centners per hectare)
                1909-13 1928-32 1933-37 1938-40 1946-50 1951
                Cereals 7,4 7,5 9,1 10,0 10,8 11,4
                Winter rye 7,4 8,2 9,6 10,0 11,2 12,7
                Winter wheat 8,7 8,6 10,9 12,4 12,8 16,3
                Spring wheat 6,2 6,1 8,0 8,8 9,7 8,7
                Spring barley 8,5 8,2 10,0 11,5 9,9 11,6
                Oats 7,9 8,2 9,9 10,1 11,4 10,6
                Corn 10,5 8,9 11,6 14,5 15,1 15,8
                Rice 11,2 21,2 23,1 23,9 23,9
                1. 0
                  5 November 2019 17: 43
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  Or maybe you?

                  I gave a link to the source ... take another - Stat. USSR collection in 1987 - p. 116, grain yield - 1940 - 8,6 kg / ha, 1960 - 10,9 kg / ha ... do you not believe the data from the Central Statistical Bureau of the USSR? bully
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  the peasants destroyed by Stalin began to collect from 12 to 17 c. per hectare.

                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  Cereals 7,4 7,5 9,1 10,0 10,8 11,4

                  Somehow you quickly changed shoes in the air! bully Somehow I don’t see you have even more than 12 kg / ha ... request
                  When is it misleading in the first quote from you or in the second? crying
                  1. +1
                    5 November 2019 20: 54
                    Quote: ser56
                    I gave a link to the source ...

                    Do you think I wrote a figure from the ceiling? I have no such habit. I also copied from the original. You also have differences in numbers, but this is not the main thing. The main thing is that the "destroyed peasantry", however that may be, increased the yield from year to year. And this is impossible to dispute. Of course, if you have a conscience.
                    1. 0
                      6 November 2019 16: 26
                      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                      I also copied from the original source.

                      is he not secret for nothing? you did not bother to voice it ... request
                      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                      You also have differences in numbers,

                      Seriously? do not give an example? bully I modestly keep silent about your somersaults with numbers ... I brought an example from you ...
                      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                      but this is not the main thing.

                      you think? bully
                      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                      but yields increased from year to year.

                      I showed that this is your lie - according to the Central Statistical Bureau of the USSR, the yield in 1940 was no higher than 1913 request

                      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                      Of course, if you have a conscience.

                      above I showed your ability to forge numbers - you kept silent, said that "this is not the main thing" - so with a conscience you are to yourself hi
      2. -4
        30 October 2019 21: 57
        Quote: Rimlianin
        The same Stalin pushed collectivization with dispossession

        Here you are wrong. 100% Leninist measure.
        1. -4
          30 October 2019 22: 00
          Lenin and in this as usual he had .. a step forward two steps back
        2. 0
          31 October 2019 01: 35
          Hello. Lenin became already incapacitated in 1922, and collectivization was introduced in 1929-1932. Lenin was the author of voluntary cooperation and NEP. And not the Stalinist collective farm forcing.
          1. -2
            31 October 2019 05: 56
            Quote: Rimlianin
            Lenin was the author of voluntary cooperation and NEP. And not the Stalinist collective farm forcing.

            How interesting. Lenin is the author of the NEP, but has nothing to do with the food scan.
            1. -1
              31 October 2019 06: 38
              And then the food scan? She was in 1920-1922. NEP introduced after. And after the collapse of the NEP under Stalin, collectivization began. We are actually discussing Stalin, not Lenin.
              1. -1
                31 October 2019 08: 18
                Quote: Rimlianin
                We are actually discussing Stalin, not Lenin.

                Yes, but you, it seems to me, began to drown for the fact that Comrade Stalin perverted the Leninist course. I do not agree with this Khrushchev. Although, on the other hand, this is an empty conversation, as if a long dead person began to act in collectivization.
    2. 0
      4 November 2019 16: 26
      Quote: ser56

      there was a continuous crisis in the economy of the USSR because of its incompetent management - therefore there was a shortage of everything - from food to socks

      Without knowing the ford, you climb into the water. The deficit was organized by Khrushchev. Khrushchev also destroyed cooperation.
      I am amazed at human arrogance, - not knowing arithmetic to be clever about higher mathematics.
      1. +1
        6 November 2019 16: 56
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        The deficit was organized by Khrushchev. Khrushchev also destroyed cooperation.

        joke.... bully
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        Amazed by human arrogance

        exactly - see you are a mirror ... bully
  27. +4
    30 October 2019 19: 04
    Stalin, come!
  28. +3
    30 October 2019 19: 32
    Very well depicted Joseph Vissarionovich, save. Thanks to the author!
  29. +8
    30 October 2019 20: 13
    Now write an article about Putin. and those who blame Stalin for everything will say that Putin has nothing to do with it.
    1. 0
      31 October 2019 03: 15
      Are you sure? Did the survey, a sociological section? Or judge by yourself?
    2. -1
      1 November 2019 14: 06
      Quote: Gardamir
      Now write an article about Putin. and those who blame Stalin for everything will say that Putin has nothing to do with it.

      those who blame Putin for everything say in the same way that Stalin was out of business, his comrades-in-arms screwed up.
      1. -2
        1 November 2019 14: 52
        Here you are greatly wrong. Putin only annexed Crimea, but otherwise he has nothing to do with it, you have to fly around the cranes, get the amphorae. Stalin is responsible for all the successes and failures.
  30. +7
    30 October 2019 20: 13
    The secret of the “Soviet miracle” is in the social form of ownership of the means of production, and only then in the planned economy. Without the first, the second is impossible.
  31. The comment was deleted.
    1. +4
      31 October 2019 10: 51
      How do you fear him, even the dead ....
    2. 0
      5 November 2019 20: 58
      Quote: Petr1971war
      Stalin-this scum!

      And you?
  32. +12
    30 October 2019 21: 13
    What do you say gentlemen?
    I.V. Stalin is such a serious figure that it is not for me to discuss him. Personally, my opinion is time to end all this self-flagellation (what can you do, we are such a people). It was, as it was.
    I already reported, mnu grandfather from dispossessed. However, the portrait of Comrade Stalin hung from him. And he never allowed anyone to shoot it. Motivating is easy! I went through a war with Stalin, and there is nothing to climb here with my dirty hands. I must say, I completely agree with him. Here is my opinion. Who didn’t please, sorry. hi
    1. +1
      6 November 2019 16: 59
      Quote: Petrol cutter
      I went through a war with Stalin, and there is nothing to climb here with my dirty hands

      this is Stockholm syndrome ... hi
      my grandfather preferred not to discuss this topic, but he read the Truth carefully, especially the editorial .... taught ... request
  33. Cop
    -9
    30 October 2019 21: 34
    As soon as the dispute about the USSR subsides, another article in the series immediately appears: USSR vn0, where n is the ordinal number of the article. So Mr. Samsonov gave birth to his next opus. Now it will begin .... the dispute between the "Stalinists" and the "Demokrata", and Mr. Samsonov will read and grin ..... At least once I tried to write an article about how Russia would have lived without this very "VOSR". But how many in the article .... conclusions are not clear on what basis. Here you read this
    Losses from the reign of the "perestroika", "democrats", "liberals" and "optimizers" are so huge that, according to scientists, they are several times higher than the damage from the invasion of the Nazis. Indeed, during the Great Patriotic War, the western part of our Motherland was destroyed. Today, the “effective managers” of the liberal spill are walking all over Russia.
    and think, what are the losses? Died from "fired" vodka and low-quality food in the 90s? In the 2000s, it was written on a vodka label that about 170 people died from poor quality vodka. Is it possible to compare such losses with what was happening in the era of t-cha jugashvilli. Or this:
    The supporting pillars of the Stalinist system were so strong in Russia that they could not be dismantled even halfway through the 1990s and 2000s.
    A reasonable question arises for you, Mr. author, if everything is so solid, then why did the USSR fall apart?
    Or this: When a huge mass of people live in poverty, in poverty or on the verge of poverty. And at the same time, billionaire oligarchs and multimillionaires are becoming even richer every year.
    Would you take the author and compare the poverty of the people with jugashvilli and the current one, or is it envious of you that you are not an oligarch? So this is who studied what .... And this is generally a masterpiece:
    He himself was an intelligent man and strove to ensure that the whole country was reasonable. Hence, such attention to science and education.
    Well, yes, if you recall Vavilov, Korolev, Llanlau, but at least Peter Kapitsa. And this too:
    That is, Stalin understood that the basis of the western slaveholding "pyramid", a consumer society with the division of people into consumer slaves and owners of the "chosen" .....
    Author, what do you think, if a Soviet citizen of the Jugashvilli era were given the opportunity to live as a "consumer slave", where would he prefer to live in "slavery" or in the most advanced state? Well, in conclusion:
    The civilization of the future came into being - a society of knowledge, service and creation, where creators and creators lived.
    based on mass repression, camps, famine, the Iron Curtain, etc. I would very much like to send Mr. Samsonov your followers .....
    1. 0
      6 November 2019 17: 03
      Quote: Cop
      Well yes, if you recall

      you can recall that:
      1) ITT did not learn to speak without an accent ... it's living for decades among Russian speakers ...
      2) IVS did not know a single foreign language ... the same GDP knows at least 2 ...
      3) ITT did not have a single completed education, but taught everyone ....
      Quote: Cop
      Mr. Samsonov’s time to your followers ....

      alas, this is not possible .... maybe at least a film was shot about a Stalinist traitor in this era ... bully
  34. +3
    30 October 2019 22: 02
    Thank you for the article.
  35. +2
    30 October 2019 23: 45
    Personality is dual. It surprisingly combines the opposite qualities - good and evil. There are no absolutely kind and absolutely evil people, everyone is somewhere between the poles at one or another distance from them. The whole question is in these removals, in the proportions of good and evil.
    Stalin was an ordinary person, and comprehension of his actions fits into this theory. Contemporaries only need to determine these proportions, without undue exaltation or blackening, draw the right conclusions and move on. In any case, this great personality deserves the respect and memory of posterity.
  36. +6
    31 October 2019 01: 16
    Stalin was and will be one of the most prominent rulers of Russia in all its history - the man who raised the country destroyed by two wars, civil conflict, managed to win the most destructive war in the history of mankind, completely rebuild the country after and turn it into a world superpower. The only one who made for Russia comparable in importance was Peter the Great.
  37. +8
    31 October 2019 01: 32
    In Stalin --- there is a need ..., society needs a leader ..., Stalin is the embodiment of this need, or necessity, Stalin is dynamics and movement, with all the side effects ....,
  38. +3
    31 October 2019 02: 04
    And the countless sorcerers of all bureaucratic levels, who, in order to imprison or shoot, were forced to announce as spies and enemies of the people - this was ideologically understandable to the people. After all, that people would not believe that you can steal so much.
    This is a big mistake for everyone to row in article 58. Then just as indiscriminately everyone was rehabilitated.
  39. +2
    31 October 2019 04: 34
    We’ll put more than one monument to this GREAT MAN! and the leader! so)) Stalin’s case LIVES!
  40. +6
    31 October 2019 06: 20
    Stalin did not hide his children from the front.
    1. -1
      31 October 2019 06: 39
      Well, yes, he spared no one, neither his own nor anyone else's.
  41. +1
    31 October 2019 07: 04
    I will not argue. After all, all the great achievements that were under Khrushchev were made by cadres raised under Stalin. They did not have organizational skills. Now the defense of Stalin, and therefore of socialism, is being conducted "on scraps of paper." When the opponents were given all the information space.
    1. -1
      1 November 2019 14: 03
      Quote: nikvic46
      I will not argue. After all, all the great achievements that were under Khrushchev were made by cadres raised under Stalin. They did not have organizational skills. Now the defense of Stalin, and therefore of socialism, is being conducted "on scraps of paper." When the opponents were given all the information space.

      and the great achievements made under Stalin were made by frames grown under Nicholas II.
      1. 0
        2 November 2019 07: 10
        Dear Victor. I rely on the grown party cadres with organizational skills. Here, the party has lost this quality over time.
  42. +6
    31 October 2019 07: 43
    Stalin about capitalism and crises.
  43. +8
    31 October 2019 08: 04
    The current politicians put together are not worth the nail of Stalin!
  44. +5
    31 October 2019 09: 28
    Joseph Vissarionovich inscribed in history as the head of state. Such people are found once in a million. And, most likely, less often. Judging by the same history of mankind. But worthlessness is enough for the eyes.
  45. +5
    31 October 2019 09: 42
    Quote: Chit






    Chit
    Yesterday, 18: 31
    New







    6
    24





    -18








    I have been studying history (including the history of the Second World War) for more than 20 years.

    Clear! We are dealing with the humanities. In order to deliberately discuss the technical aspects of the Second World War, you need to have the necessary amount of technical knowledge. Numerical superiority in certain types of weapons does not mean anything yet, these are just numbers. You need to know how to manage equipment, you need to maintain it, you need to have consumables. Rezun, the great balabol. As a writer of "historical fantasy" he is certainly beyond competition, in this he must be given his due. If we just take the number of aircraft, yes we had more of them, but we need to look at the performance characteristics of the aircraft and their resistance to combat damage. The durability of wooden aircraft is less than that of all-metal aircraft, and survivability is also lower. In the USSR, the production of motors was just being created, there were big problems with the production of plastics, rubber, high-grade gasoline. A normal aluminum industry was created only after the war, having created before that chemical. caustic soda plants. Why did you need caustic in the production of aluminum, see for yourself. Plexiglas was made from cellulose obtained from wood; in the West, cotton was used for this purpose. I will stop, there are too many to list. In that historical period, the measures taken by the government of the USSR were justified, and everyone has mistakes, even the Lord was wrong. The current government oh, how far is it from the government of that era. Stalin is reviled mainly by the humanities and this is understandable. As our daughter, a programmer, says: "There is no need to strictly judge the humanities, their brains are not structured by exact sciences, so they carry all sorts of nonsense."
  46. -2
    31 October 2019 10: 32
    The difficult situation in Russia. The "reformers" could not finish off the legacy of the social state, but they are trying with all their might to complete what was begun in 1985 — 1993. Hence the pension “reform”, which robbed people, new taxes on taxes, the growth of tariffs, food prices, gasoline. Preparing Pension Reform-2. People who have privatized the state are trying by all means to get rid of social obligations, transfer the people, school, health care system, etc. to "self-sufficiency."
    If the author of the article bothered to explain what prevented or who prevented the authorities from "finishing off the legacy of the welfare state" since 2000, otherwise they are trying, trying and still nothing ... The author and those who repeat these mantras in the morning do not seem to bother that their version that we are sliding into the abyss, into which Putin and his team of reformers are strenuously pushing us, fully fits into the concept of liberal globalizers, who assert exactly the same thing. The author binds to this concept what worries our citizens (pensions, hospitals, etc.), and the Western media - what worries their reader (military threat, gas hook, etc.), but they have the same concept : Putin must leave! Against this background, I don't want to discuss J.V. Stalin, but he would have done the right thing by reading this article.
    1. +5
      31 October 2019 11: 35
      Quote: sniperino
      If the author of the article bothered to explain what prevented or who prevented the authorities from "finishing off the legacy of the welfare state" since 2000

      It disturbs what is still full of people who remember socialism.
      Quote: sniperino
      otherwise they’re trying, they’re trying and all the same ...

      More like "how". Take, for example, drug monetization. Fifteen years ago, you could buy a tablet for 300 rubles much more than for today's 500. About two times.
      Quote: sniperino
      that their version that we are heading into the abyss, where Putin and his team of reformers are pushing us intensively, fully fits into the concept of liberal globalizers who claim exactly the same thing.

      We have almost the entire economy under their control.
      Quote: sniperino
      I do not want to discuss IV Stalin, but he would have done the right thing by reading this article.

      No doubt.
  47. +3
    31 October 2019 10: 36
    Stalin is a Lump and all the statements of modern authorities holding about him, it’s their impossibility that he did it, they NEVER do this. That's because of this all and whining.
  48. 0
    31 October 2019 10: 52
    It would not be bad if the author gave accurate references to the sources from which he emphasized the Stalinist prophecies. But it turns out that someone, somewhere, when he heard it, Stalin said or wrote.
  49. 0
    31 October 2019 11: 08
    We, as often happens, have mixed up causes and effects. Everything is upside down! It is not the liberals who destroyed the USSR. Liberals inherited a crumbling, rotting country in all its members. After all, the USSR, by the 80s, had blown everything that could be purged. Gorbachev would have happened or not, the fate of the USSR was a foregone conclusion. The era of Yeltsin (liberals), simply fulfilled the role of undertaker.
  50. +4
    31 October 2019 11: 23
    The author is a fat plus .. Well said .. Stalin is a genius ..
  51. +2
    31 October 2019 12: 10
    Quote: Ehanatone
    "Stalin is more alive than all living politicians"
    Yeah, the cadaver carries from all these Nabibulin and Medvedev with the Silunavs a mile away ...
    and they try to drag us away behind the heights behind us ..

    They are not going there - they are going over the hill, and you and I will not be invited there with them! sad
  52. The comment was deleted.
    1. +2
      31 October 2019 15: 21
      Thank you Victor for your opinion! If it's not a secret, what year were you born? And if you remember, tell me - did anyone talk then about repressions, about mass arrests, about the fate of those repressed? Was there fear in society?
    2. +2
      1 November 2019 14: 11
      5. Organized a famine in the USSR (tens of thousands of people died of starvation) and unleashed repressions against his people; How did the execution of a 16-year-old boy (Sverdlovsk region) accelerate the process of building socialism in the USSR?!!
      6. Destroyed the senior, middle and partially junior command staff of the Red Army;
      7. Participant in the development of World War II. The losses of the peoples of the USSR are still not feasible. Ask yourself the question: “Where and where did thousands of BT-7 tanks go?” In terms of their performance characteristics, they were superior to the German T-4s.
      8. The people of the USSR imposed brothers and sisters from the socialist camp after the war, and even there the communists killed their opponents.
      9. After the end of the war, he left units of the Red (since 1946 - Soviet) Army in Eastern Europe - about 2.5 million. military personnel. The USA, Great Britain and France in total, if I’m not mistaken, left about 600 thousand military personnel. This confrontation led to the creation of NATO.
      We could go on and on, but I think this is enough. Do you think that if you lived at that time this would not have affected you! You are deeply mistaken!

      5. Read more about how Stalin caused droughts. And also famine (famine) in the Russian Empire - is it a famine or just a random phenomenon? Did Stalin personally shoot the boy?
      6. Facts to the studio!
      7. Wow, how interesting! Let's find out how Stalin deployed 2 MV? And I believed that the Germans did not care about the Geneva and Hague Conventions and deliberately destroyed the population of the USSR.
      Tanks were lost in battle. At least read Suvorov-Rezun, BT-7 has 45 mm, T-4 has 75 mm.
      8. i.e. Democrats in other countries don't kill democrats, liberals don't kill liberals, fascists don't kill fascists, monarchists don't kill monarchists?
      9. The plan for Operation “Unthinkable” - that means it just appeared out of nowhere. And the USA, Great Britain, France did not leave their troops in Europe. The USA still has bases in Europe - for some reason
      1. -4
        2 November 2019 03: 16
        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
        Also, famine (famine) in the Russian Empire - is it a famine or just a random phenomenon?

        Yes, Nicholas the Bloody was a cruel, brainless, absurd monster.
        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
        Facts to the studio!

        Vika - "repressions in the Red Army 1937-1938". We mean that among the commanders of the WWII fronts, potential and real enemies of the people included:
        Zhukov
        Rokossovsky
        Malinovsky
        Meretskov
        Golikov
        Baghramyan
        This is who I can remember right away.
        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
        they did not care about the Geneva and Hague Conventions and deliberately destroyed the population of the USSR.

        What attitude did the population of the USSR have to these conventions?
        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
        At least read Suvorov-Rezun,

        Found something to read. The main tanks of the Wehrmacht in 41 were twos and 38t, there were few threes, almost no fours. The most terrible beast was Stug.
        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
        those. Democrats in other countries don't kill democrats, liberals don't kill liberals, fascists don't kill fascists, monarchists don't kill monarchists?

        Everything is correct, with the exception of the fascists, only they had an internal party discussion in the Stalinist style. I’ll say more, almost none of those listed, except for the fascists, killed communists. Vika - Tolyatti.
        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
        The plan for Operation Unthinkable appeared just like that. And the USA, Great Britain, France did not leave their troops in Europe

        He appeared late, the “Unthinkable” plan. To make matters worse, even Field Marshal Brooke, the Chief of General Staff, did not understand this idea and did not rearrange his head accordingly.
        In reality, Eisenhower's headquarters was formally dissolved, EMNIP, on July 14, 1945, and has actually not worked since the end of June. From that moment until the end of the 50s, despite all the bragging of the Americans, there was no military force in Europe capable of resisting the SA. Not until ’49, the creation of NATO, I emphasize, but before ’59, the creation of the Central State Administration headquarters (the SGA headquarters was created back in ’52, since sane British commanded in the North, and not Americans crazy from their own greatness).
  53. +2
    31 October 2019 13: 28
    The words in the title are prophetic, like many other things that Stalin wrote about.
    To understand the topic, there is a fresh and very interesting article on M. Khazin’s website. https://khazin.ru/articles/10-vlast-i-obshhestvo/73236-zolotoy-vek-ekateriny-ili-problemy-dogonjajushhey-modernizatsii, this is not advertising, it is clear and straightforward that we cannot avoid the physical elimination of class devices, as Stalin did. Otherwise, decay and degradation.
  54. +2
    31 October 2019 14: 13
    Quote: lexus
    GREAT RUSSIAN LAND has never been deprived of HEROES with unbending will, the spirit of which cannot be broken, and the mind cannot be enslaved. It was they who forged her greatness. And even after death, they remained the guiding light for many generations and the detonator of animal fear for all enemies and ill-wishers.

    That is why true patriots remember Stalin with nostalgia, and enemies are afraid of the appearance of a personality comparable to him in scale. At the same time, external adversaries openly denigrate the image of the great leader, and local Judas do not hesitate to speculate on them. In view of the wretchedness and insignificance of the "gourmets of Russia" and the complete absence of achievements with a "plus" sign, they try to ascribe all his merits, like the conquests of the entire Soviet people, to themselves and appropriate all victories, up to the GREAT one, although as the successors of the Vlasovites have a completely opposite attitude (in 1945 they would hang out on the gallows with other accomplices of fascism). As well as all the shit that happens to Russia and in Russia is technically presented as a "damned Stalinist / Soviet legacy." They are thin, thieving and cowardly in comparison with Joseph Vissarionovich. Therefore, they drape the Mausoleum on May 9, fear the Red Banner, rewrite History, open monuments to murderers and traitors. And that is why the broadcast on TV of any program about the GREAT USSR and its achievements are always diluted with a stinking slurry in the form of Brehunitsyn, Vlasov, Rezun and other "offended by the regime" abomination. They are always in a hurry to "spoil the air" so as not to let people "breathe deeply" and soberly assess what is happening.
    Alexander, thanks for the article and the cycle as a whole! hi good

    good good good drinks hi
  55. +4
    31 October 2019 17: 05
    In terms of his effectiveness, the number of correct and incorrect decisions, Stalin is far ahead of everyone and the same with Putin. No matter how much we are told that Stalin achieved everything by repressing the elite, we only understand better that without the repression of the elite, nothing can be achieved now.
  56. +2
    31 October 2019 21: 56
    Just what the hell is the red emperor Stalin? He was a Marxist, one hundred percent Leninist
  57. -6
    31 October 2019 22: 37
    On September 19, 2019, the European Union officially equated communism and Nazism with a resolution condemning how “both regimes committed mass murder, genocide and deportation of people, and caused loss of life and freedom on a scale previously unknown in human history.” "

    Stalin's terror against his people began in the twenties and continued until 1953.
    A group of French historians gained access to declassified information from Moscow archives and finally established the number of victims - one hundred million dead.
    Apparently, Alexander Solzhenitsyn was right; in his book “The Gulag Archipelago,” written in 1973, he estimated the total number of victims of repression at 88 million people.

    Stalin is the most cruel and disgusting killer in world history, on his conscience tens of millions of victims, tortured by the most sophisticated sadistic methods.

    It is strange to read odes of praise to the criminal Stalin; it is impossible to imagine a statue of Hitler in Berlin or anywhere else in Germany, but monuments to Stalin in Russia, in recent years, have been erected....
    1. -1
      31 October 2019 23: 55
      Quote: alta
      A group of French historians gained access to declassified information from Moscow archives and finally established the number of victims - one hundred million dead.

      Wow, what news.
  58. +2
    31 October 2019 23: 17
    Joseph Vissarionovich was the only ruler who loved his homeland and his people. He took over his country with a plow and launched an atomic bomb. Under his rule, wages rose and prices fell
  59. -2
    1 November 2019 02: 08
    I'll throw my humble penny into your debate. I will not argue or prove anything so-called. “Stalinists of the XNUMXst century”: this is obviously a disastrous business and a waste of time, to prove something to those who fanatically consider themselves and their views to be the only true ones and are hostile to any criticism of their “idol” and his actions. However, reading the comments of those who had previously unsubscribed, I saw another confirmation of my suspicions that you, “Stalinists,” are the essence of crafty Evil. How much anger, rudeness, and mockery you splashed out on those who tried to contradict you. You are like that mocking crowd of Jews who accompanied Jesus to the place of his crucifixion and who in every possible way “brightened up” his last hours of life.
    You are bloodthirsty. Bloodthirsty like radical Islamists from the Islamic State. And just like them, you justify cruelty, terror and violence against dissenters as a fight for “goodness, truth and justice” against “corruption, bribe-takers, kickbacks and cuts.”
    It is because of people like you that a certain part of the former Soviet republics and Warsaw Pact countries believe that Russia poses a threat to their independence - and therefore they frantically advocate nationalism, for joining NATO and the EU.
    PS: not a “liberalist” (“what kind of words are these - serf and serf!”), but rather a social democrat.
    PSS: I didn’t care about your “minuses” =: -7
    PSSS: and there is no need to attribute to your God something that he did not actually say. Especially this is your “I know that after my death a heap of rubbish will be placed on my grave, but the wind of history will dispel it” - do not dare pass off what was written in fiction (Felix Chuev - “140 conversations with Molotov”) as supposedly “prophetic "(and historical) words!
  60. 0
    1 November 2019 03: 57
    You know, they don’t love Stalin, they don’t love the life around them. Love for Stalin is love “against”. Part of the population may love Stalin, because the monuments of great victories remain visible, the belief that thanks to him the Patriotic War was won... Karamzin wrote about Ivan the Terrible, whom Joseph Vissarionovich perceived almost personally, at the level of transmigration of souls: “The cries of his victims fell silent, the documents gathered dust in the archives. Only the monuments of his military victories and state power remained visible. And gradually the “tormentor” in people’s memory changed to the name Grozny, which is very respected in the East.” But history is more memorable than people. It's the same with Stalin. In soft Caucasian boots, he returned to us again. Today it is not he who is in demand, but the myth, the very idea of ​​him. 
  61. -1
    1 November 2019 09: 01
    If the red-bellied people had not come to power in 1917, then Russia would have defeated Germany in the First World War and, accordingly, there would have been no 1941 and millions of war victims.
    If the red-bellied people had not come to power, there would not have been millions of victims of the civil war, millions of victims of famine and millions of victims of mass repression.

    Only traitors could wish such a fate for their country. Babysitters of the State Department, how many of you are divorced.
  62. 0
    1 November 2019 10: 04
    Never mind, Comrade STALIN, YOU will have a new meadow strewn with scarlet roses and your descendants will erect monuments to YOU ​​all over RUSSIA. And all talkers, talkers, traitors, thieves, corrupt officials, robbers will be rewarded. There will be a holiday on OUR STREET, the street of SIMPLE, HONEST, SMART RUSSIAN PEOPLE!!!
  63. +3
    1 November 2019 12: 25
    Thanks to Comrade Stalin for the fact that we are alive now. If he had not been in the place of the leader of the USSR, there would have been neither us nor the state.
  64. +2
    1 November 2019 12: 29
    Quote: Nikolai R
    If the red-bellied people had not come to power in 1917, then Russia would have defeated Germany in the First World War and, accordingly, there would have been no 1941 and millions of war victims.

    If white-assed people studied history, they wouldn’t write such nonsense! Remember: history has no such thing as "ifs." And alternative history is for science fiction writers!
    1. -2
      2 November 2019 14: 30
      Whites are just as much traitors as reds.
      And I'm not interested in your templates. You need to be able to see the essence of things at least a little.
      The fantasy about white and fluffy Stalin is right up your alley.
  65. +4
    1 November 2019 12: 39
    Quote: alta
    The European Union officially equated communism and Nazism with a resolution condemning how “both regimes committed mass murder, genocide and deportation of people, and caused loss of life and freedom on a scale previously unknown in human history.”

    Ask yourself why the same European Union does not indict Winston Churchel for organizing the Bengal famine in 1943? Or are 3,4 million victims the “wrong victims” who should be counted, these are savages?! Or to the US authorities for the deportation of the Japanese and the death of hundreds of thousands of German prisoners of war after the war? No. they are “white and fluffy” and we must repent and worship the impudent Saxons, and those whom they will designate as our idols, such as Solzhenitsyn, who called for nuclear strikes on our Motherland!
    1. -3
      1 November 2019 18: 40
      Quote: slasha
      Winston Churchel for organizing the Bengal famine in 1943?

      Is he the rain god or the viceroy of India?
      Quote: slasha
      these are “not the victims” who should be considered, these are savages?!

      These are not British citizens. Yes, the colonial world is unfair.
      Quote: slasha
      Or the US authorities for the deportation of the Japanese at home,

      It was a crime. The government paid and repented. Including Reagan and Bush Sr. personally, EMNIP.
      Quote: slasha
      the death of hundreds of thousands of German prisoners of war after the war?

      This is a famous sketch. Life for the Germans in 45 was not easy, but Eisenhower’s main crimes were deportations to the East on the one hand, connivance with Benes’ decrees on the other.
      1. 0
        2 November 2019 07: 56
        These are not British citizens. Yes, the colonial world is unfair......... and your reasoning is interesting. a true liberal demagogue. but tell me, for what purposes did Europe put millions, I repeat millions, of its citizens in P.M. war? under Verdunnn, and the Somme, at Ypres, etc.? Why did they use weapons of mass destruction against each other? in the name of what ideals?
        1. -2
          2 November 2019 12: 04
          Quote: Unknown
          Your reasoning is interesting. a true liberal demagogue.

          Why am I a “liberal”? The liberals have been screwed for a long time.
          Quote: Unknown
          Europe has put millions, I repeat millions, of its citizens in P.M. war?...in the name of what ideals?

          Purely for fun. You hardly understand that for the rulers of those times, including their lordships, war was something like the Olympics. Now such clarity remains mainly in Africa.

          However, local Stalin lovers demonstrate just that.
          1. +1
            2 November 2019 14: 22
            It's interesting to read your thoughts. War for sovereigns is just entertainment. Well, this may be suitable for the Middle Ages, a little, a little and the beginning of the 19th century, but not for the 20th century. Then Mr. Capital began to rule. and the emperors and kings turned out to be just pawns on a chessboard called the earth, even our autocrat, Nikolashka, is not free to make decisions, without regard to capital. By the way, the two main instigators, France and Britain, had, as they say now ,the most democratic and liberal parliaments. which did not stop them from causing a worldwide massacre. liberals will always find excuses for their crimes.
            1. -3
              2 November 2019 16: 07
              Quote: Unknown
              . and emperors and kings turned out to be just pawns on a chessboard called earth, even our autocrat, Nikolashka

              Yes, yes, Ryabushinsky announced mobilization, Nikolai danced to the tune of the liberals.

              For students, I would recommend the episode with Varys and Tyrion, about the nature of power. But, as I understand it, you only smoke Gospolitizdat. Good luck with this.
              1. +2
                2 November 2019 22: 45
                Well, I would advise you to study the history of Russia, but not in its current presentation. judging by the way you are discussing the topic of STALIN, you are in your early thirties, just a perestroika generation that grew up on democratic values. so, in addition to the Ryabushinsky you mentioned, in Tsarist Russia there were richer and more influential tycoons such as the banker, Boris Kamensky, von Wogau, and even Alfred Nobel, and a dozen more magnates who were connected by loans with the French, this is no longer a secret . Only now, Putin decided to pay off the old debts of that Russia, extraordinary generosity. That's how things were back then. and I only smoke White Sea Canal, I’m used to it somehow, but I advise you not to read any more products from the memorial and the Yeltsin Foundation, they are harmful.
                1. -4
                  3 November 2019 00: 11
                  Quote: Unknown
                  more influential tycoons such as banker Boris Kamensky

                  Kamenka. Great, the Jews also twirled the Nikolashka, in partnership with the liberals.

                  Who else announced mobilization? Wogau, who were kicked out of Russia with a kick in the ass? Vtorov, maybe the then Rotenberg? What absurd people, really.
                  1. 0
                    3 November 2019 07: 10
                    If we are talking about mobilization, then we must at least know what mobilization is, how it is prepared, and how it is carried out. So for the victims of the Unified State Exam, I explain that the GENERAL STAFF prepares and conducts it, and who writes manifestos or announces on the radio, this is the tenth thing. and finally, I’ll say this: a person who watches Game of Thrones shouldn’t interfere with stupid comments on V.O. You need to gain a little wisdom and grow up.
                    1. -4
                      3 November 2019 09: 54
                      Quote: Unknown
                      You need to gain a little wisdom and grow up.

                      The king of smart comments entered the building.

                      So what happened to the mobilization in the Republic of Ingushetia in 14th? Has the General Staff incurred French debts? Did Kamenka send liberals to Mikhnevich?
  66. +1
    1 November 2019 13: 21
    And then the greedy communists privatized everything.

    In other words, they stopped being communists and became capitalists.
    Then we need to beat the communists and restore socialism.
  67. -2
    1 November 2019 14: 17
    Quote: sir.jonn
    Quote: Vladimir16
    Stalin was essentially an autocrat. He did not care for the party. He lifted our country from his knees. Country, but not the Communist Party.

    To lift the country off its knees, he used the Communist Party, and the Communist Party itself was the focus of the ideas of the new Russia.

    The Autocrat was gone and it turned out that the Communist Party was rotten... slowly but surely the people were getting drunk, economically disastrous decisions were being made, the deficit provoked popular discontent and disbelief in our bright future and the pursuit of Western ideals. Some 30 years and voila: Where is the USSR? Who is in power now? Who are the oligarchs? Who cuts the budget and sells the people's property? Who is baptized in full belly? And whose children are all abroad? DID YOU TAKE A LOOK?! Yes, all the same communists, the same ones, I remember very well, who from the stands called us into a bright communist future, and now they are emptying the pockets of pensioners for fear of not stealing in their last term of office... But don’t worry, they will definitely recommend a successor to us and we will go together and let's vote for him.
  68. +1
    1 November 2019 14: 25
    Quote: tesser
    Quote: alta
    A group of French historians gained access to declassified information from Moscow archives and finally established the number of victims - one hundred million dead.

    Wow, what news.

    On one of the radio channels, an invited expert, without blinking an eye, named the number of those repressed at a THOUSAND millions! The presenter asked incredulously - A THOUSAND? And again, without wavering his voice, the expert gave out - A THOUSAND MILLIONS!
    For those who did not study well at school, it is worth explaining - a thousand million is 1 billion!!! And it’s okay, the people eat this liberal demo and believe it.
  69. +1
    1 November 2019 15: 01
    Quote: Rimlianin
    Thank you Victor for your opinion! If it's not a secret, what year were you born? And if you remember, tell me - did anyone talk then about repressions, about mass arrests, about the fate of those repressed? Was there fear in society?

    The question is certainly not for me, but about fear in society under Stalin, I will answer with the words of my grandmother: “How well we lived before the war” - and these are not the words of a party functionary, my grandmother survived the revolution, the civil revolution, the famine in Ukraine, the German occupation... Yes , in the 30s, all their land was cut off right up to the threshold (there was a garden and an apiary), but after a letter to Voroshilov they returned it... Grandfather was a simple railway worker and the salary was enough, grandmother did not work a day, ran the household and, not surprisingly, praised those pre-war times...
  70. +1
    1 November 2019 15: 55
    In 1939-41 the best demonstration of Stalin's genius. In a “no-win” situation, he found a way out that was invisible to others.
    Before the Second World War, the capitalist encirclement was much stronger and should have destroyed the USSR together, and everyone, the Marxists and their enemies, thought that this would happen. Only Stalin realized that there was a chance to win because the contradictions between the imperialists could turn out to be stronger. And he brilliantly used this chance in 1939.
    Only Germany attacked the USSR and it remained isolated, not the USSR. This is a decisive diplomatic victory for Stalin.
    In 1940-41 he managed to keep his generals from launching a preemptive attack on Germany. Such an attack could only end in a much worse military disaster than actually occurred in 1941.
    Germany's advantages in 1940-41: a fully mobilized army and economy, a much better transport network, much shorter transport distances along the internal line (between two fronts).
    In addition, the USSR was burdened by a large technical lag, the legacy of Tsarist Russia, from the leading countries of the world - the USA, Germany, and England. Over the course of 20 years they managed to reduce it, but it could not be completely overcome. For example, Germany had technical superiority in aviation over the USSR from the beginning to the end of the war.
    The retreat in the summer of 1941 beat the inevitable and saved the army and the country. The casualty ratio was much better than in the Wehrmacht campaigns in the West and eventually the blitzkrieg stopped.
    The preemptive offensive of the Red Army in 1940 and 1941 meant a catastrophic defeat of its main forces west of the Dnieper - as the German general staff wanted. Help from Western countries. at least in 1940-42, it was impossible to expect - then they abandoned their allies Czechoslovakia, Poland, Yugoslavia and Greece.
    1. -2
      2 November 2019 00: 46
      Did you understand what you wrote? Tell that to the forty million who died from this "genius"
  71. 0
    2 November 2019 00: 43
    I respect oligarchs. They simply take and make money from the impoverished masses, while the masses shout: “Give us Stalin back!”)))
  72. -3
    2 November 2019 00: 44
    Guys, all those who are trying to prove the so-called. to the “Stalinists” that they are wrong: calm down - you will not prove anything to these deceitful (it’s like I read a textbook on the alternative history of the Fatherland!) agitators. This article is nothing more than propaganda material for the underage public and older children. Attempts to return the "cult of personality". Ideological treatment according to the Syrian scenario. And the majority of the so-called “Stalinists” here are nothing more than henchmen and agitators. There is no need to try to “save their souls” and “turn to the Light” - this is the same as calling for abstinence and chastity in a brothel. Articles like this now appear even on non-political resources, but they are popular among young people. I would not be surprised if all this is the brainchild of political crooks under the guise of the “main registration chamber of the USSR.”
  73. -3
    2 November 2019 01: 11
    From "Alexander Samsonov", the author of articles about the mythical states of the ancient Rus - a new article about the mythical Stalin.
  74. -1
    2 November 2019 10: 33
    The Russian soul is mysterious, there are no borders or fences in it, in its love and hate it knows no boundaries, does not see the shores... But you must not love or hate your past, but simply remember and understand.
  75. +2
    2 November 2019 19: 56
    Yes... Putin gets to Stalin, just like he gets to Beijing... hmm, on foot. laughing
  76. -3
    2 November 2019 23: 36
    Quote: Sunstorm
    The Russian soul is mysterious, there are no borders or fences in it, in its love and hate it knows no boundaries, does not see the shores... But you must not love or hate your past, but simply remember and understand.


    The point here is not a matter of love and hatred for the past of the Fatherland (after all, the past is already accomplished, it cannot be returned or changed - it can, as you said, really only be remembered, understood and accepted) - but the fact that someone is simply blatantly lying . Moreover, in such a way that it passes off “desired” as “real” (in particular, even those supposedly “historical” pearls, most of which are the fantasies of some naive teenager from the “zero”, and the other small ones are pulled from works of art) , and does it with an obviously “murky” purpose. Otherwise, you see, he was undeservedly spat upon, he was allegedly slandered! Yes, Lenin himself spoke negatively about him in his “letter to the Congress”! As soon as he concentrated absolute power in his hands, he immediately, in order to preserve it, destroyed his former Bolshevik comrades with iron fists, leaving only sycophants, as well as those who did not pose a danger to him and were still needed by him.
  77. -3
    2 November 2019 23: 53
    Quote: kebeskin
    You know, they don’t love Stalin, they don’t love the life around them.

    So what happens: if I hypothetically don’t like cucumbers, then automatically I don’t like every living thing in this world? This is some kind of sophistry. Life suits me - despite the fact that I don’t like tyrants like Stalin, to whom a crowd of weak-willed “personalities” (from whom he himself would have gotten rid of) furiously sing verses of praise.

    Quote: kebeskin
    Today it is not he who is in demand, but the myth, the very idea of ​​him.

    ... he is needed by those who, in his name, are trying to “move” into power, and this “angelic” image is needed so as not to cause concern and anxiety, to lull the vigilance of the population, which will then benefit to the very “tomatoes”.
  78. -1
    3 November 2019 00: 10
    In the History of Russia there have always been leaders who COULD!
    They were able to annex Crimea, or they couldn’t keep it!
    My PRESIDENT from the FIRST bully
  79. -2
    3 November 2019 00: 42
    Apparently, someone was very offended by the “weak character”: but he could have said it more simply and straightforwardly... what is called “in color”!
  80. -3
    3 November 2019 02: 07
    Still, don’t whitewash a black dog - he will remain black. He, like Yeltsin, by hook or by crook, sought to become the master of the country, but just like Yeltsin, having become its head, he was extremely incompetent as a ruler. When the Nazis attacked us, he behaved like his modern countryman from 08.08.08/XNUMX/XNUMX - the well-known Saakashvili (except that he didn’t chew his tie - but who knows...): “Lenin left us a great legacy, we are his heirs - all this missed it!". And unlike your "winds blowing debris from his grave" this is his really spoken phrase, which is confirmed by the memoirs of A.M. Mikoyan ("The Beginning of the War. From the memoirs of A.I. Mikoyan." RTSKHIDNI. F. 84. Op. 3. D. 187. Ll. 118–126.).
    PS: to claim that he is the “commander-in-chief of victory” and without him we would not have won that War is like claiming that the victory in the Patriotic War of 1812 was forged by Emperor Alexander I, and not by Kutuzov, Bagration, Barclay de Toli and many others less famous commanders. Don’t you dare attribute to Stalin the feat that was accomplished by Marshals Zhukov, Govorov (it was he who organized the counter-offensive of our troops near Moscow in 41!), Konev, Voroshilov, Budyonny, Timoshenko, Malinovsky, Vasilevsky, Shaposhnikov, and no matter how offended you are - Tukhachevsky. It was these Strategists who smashed the enemy with their armies, while Stalin tried to find a reason to get rid of one or the other - and this during the war, when the loss of one of the commanders could be a turning point in its conduct!
  81. -3
    3 November 2019 02: 14
    So “thank you grandfather for the Victory!” (and generals too), and not to this totalitarian dictator-“effective manager”.
  82. +1
    3 November 2019 16: 54
    Well... All that remains is to canonize Stalin and canonize him among the Orthodox saints. It is wrong that George outdid his leader in this. And in 10 years the “Collection of Prophetic Sayings of the Great Stalin” will be published.
  83. 0
    4 November 2019 03: 14
    Look how you got angry: as many as four “minuses” for the “black dog”! Truly offended the religious feelings of the “devout believers” from the “Sect of Witnesses of the Socialist Paradise”! Here it is, a clear example of the fact that the “Stalinists” do not tolerate dissent (and are ready to fight it - because there is only their Only True Opinion)!
    Well, it’s okay, I also have a “minus”. “Let’s go, cheeky one, to the back room - I’ll drink up some barbary for you!”
  84. -1
    4 November 2019 04: 51
    In fact, that’s exactly what it’s all about! Stalin is not my hero - I think that if I lived in 37-38, then for my “chattering” some “well-wisher” would have handed me over under Article 58. By the way, two relatives from my family died in those years. But there is no reproach for a long time - such were the morals, such were we, the people. Don’t we now see among our acquaintances, neighbors, and entourage those who “if something happens” will also write a denunciation and go “to the police” - in general, now is a different time. Meanness, exploitation, and public murder took on a more sophisticated liberal form. Stalin was a devout revolutionary, a passionary, and not the most capable, but he was a dialectician who largely groped his way, making mistakes. - The main thing is that he saw a great noble goal, which he selflessly served - a great, happy, highly spiritual Russia. This was the ideology of the party and the state. It must be said that Stalin was well aware of the problems of party and state building - he was looking for scientific solutions to problems. Unfortunately, I did not have time to rebuild and overcome the bureaucracy, which I myself created out of necessity. In comparison, the current leaders of Russia are not ideological leaders, comrades-in-arms, but “accountants” who are ideologically petty for Russia, because they perceive it as a territory, a country like France, Sweden, Germany, etc., and not as a phenomenon, a civilization that cannot live and develop without a great ideology, meaning, and justice. One consolation for now is that our dream and ideology is continued by China, Cuba, Vietnam, but it’s hard for them without us - we need to return to a worthy path of social development. We must perceive the past as a source of the future, as a necessary and inevitable path for a great country.
  85. 0
    4 November 2019 09: 24
    If you read Gleb Uspensky, it immediately becomes clear where the roots of 1917 and 1937 come from. In what darkness and bondage the peasantry lived, i.e. the majority of the population, what a dominance of kulaks, etc. from here and 1917. The bourgeoisie still owe thanks to Comrade Lenin for issuing a decree on land, otherwise all this oppressed mass was ready to solve all of them. And that with the advent of Soviet power, the majority of the population immediately began to have communist views, but no, that’s why Lenin’s statement about the vanguard of the revolution, which should lead people to socialism, is relevant. Of course, if people did not adhere to communist views, they adhered to some other ones, which ones? - bourgeois and petty bourgeois. And of course among them there were those who benefited from the system that existed under the Republic of Ingushetia, and of course among them there were irreconcilable ones who wanted to return the old order. So much for the roots of the Civil War and 1937.
  86. 0
    4 November 2019 10: 29
    Cunning, very cunning! Now, instead of simply singing psalms of praise to your Fuhrer, you now allegedly also condemn him in some way, and then suddenly carefully begin to say that this was the best that the land of the Fatherland has given us in its entire history. You are just following the same training manual with the liberals: at first, somewhere until the end of the XNUMXs, they were radical, openly “against” Putin, and now, having realized that our people are not so stupid, they began to pretend to be “patriots” ", who will also first say something good about him to divert attention and win the favor of the listeners, and then as usual. Only if the liberals are trying to put pressure on some of the “weaknesses” of the population, then you are trying to put pressure on others.
    I heard tales about the fact that Putin is a protege of the oligarchs and various insults addressed to him back in the days when such personalities as Berezovsky, Abramovich and Khodorkovsky were striving for power, when Chechen terrorists needed their help, and Putin interfered with them with his presidency - and precisely from there it came that under him Russia “is bloody Mordor”, that human rights are violated, there is no freedom of speech and other information war against him. And it seems to me that you are nothing more than their “team number 2”, which is treating us from the “opposite” side. It’s somehow very interesting that you all became more active at this turning point in history for our country for the better. Well, that’s right - for the first time since Yeltsin, our country is “dragging” in foreign policy, some people clearly don’t like this, and therefore are trying to get rid of the leader of our country as “someone else’s king on the chessboard” with the hands of people like you pseudo-" patriots." And as your potential target for indoctrination - the “zero” generation, which only grew up and did not experience the realities of the Union and the 90s, which saw changes for the better for us at an unconscious age and to whom the current state of our country can be presented as “all gone."
  87. +1
    4 November 2019 10: 46
    To sum up the enthusiastic comments: I wish all those who admire me to feel all the (well-known) signs of Stalin’s years of rule! At the very highest level. Hurray, comrades!
    1. 0
      12 November 2019 13: 18
      [i][/i]Even though I am a person who loves history and I don’t justify all of it (the actions of the rulers of Russia), but I will tell you that it is because of people like you, “sergeant major,” that Russia will perish from within, and not because of an external threat , although there is plenty of this trash too.
      1. +1
        13 November 2019 18: 43
        If you have nothing to say on the topic, it is better to leave all the anger, poison and bile to yourself, you are a self-promoted soothsayer.
  88. 0
    4 November 2019 10: 51
    Quote: Private 89
    If you read Gleb Uspensky, it immediately becomes clear where the roots of 1917 and 1937 come from. In what darkness and bondage the peasantry lived, i.e. the majority of the population, what a dominance of kulaks, etc. from here and 1917. The bourgeoisie still owe thanks to Comrade Lenin for issuing a decree on land, otherwise all this oppressed mass was ready to solve all of them. And that with the advent of Soviet power, the majority of the population immediately began to have communist views, but no, that’s why Lenin’s statement about the vanguard of the revolution, which should lead people to socialism, is relevant. Of course, if people did not adhere to communist views, they adhered to some other ones, which ones? - bourgeois and petty bourgeois. And of course among them there were those who benefited from the system that existed under the Republic of Ingushetia, and of course among them there were irreconcilable ones who wanted to return the old order. So much for the roots of the Civil War and 1937.

    Lenin essentially took revenge for his brother. He took revenge through politics. Moreover, he didn’t care from whose hands he took help. As a result, he took it from the hands of the German General Staff - he went with his comrades in a sealed carriage to stop the “fratricidal” war with Germany by withdrawing Russia from the war. And after the end of the First World War, the Bolsheviks were essentially left to their own devices - like the American Taliban in Afghanistan after the withdrawal of a group of Soviet troops from there in 89.
  89. -1
    4 November 2019 14: 45
    Quote: swyatoslav
    To sum up the enthusiastic comments: I wish all those who admire me to feel all the (well-known) signs of Stalin’s years of rule! At the very highest level. Hurray, comrades!


    Let them learn Korean for this and run off to the DPRK! There they have all the conditions for this!
  90. 0
    4 November 2019 16: 02
    Quote: Vadim Budyuk
    In comparison, the current leaders of Russia are not ideological leaders, comrades-in-arms, but “accountants” who are ideologically petty for Russia, because they perceive it as a territory, a country like France, Sweden, Germany, etc., and not as a phenomenon, a civilization that cannot live and develop without a great ideology, meaning, and justice.

    What’s wrong with the fact that our government is doing what it should be doing - that is, ruling our country, not strangers? Or should we be like the Americans in the role of the “world gendarme” - so that the whole world hates us? We live relatively quietly, peacefully and calmly - and there is nothing wrong with that, unlike your leader, who was clearly haunted by the laurels of Napoleon or Louis the “Sun King” XIV.

    Quote: Vadim Budyuk
    One consolation for now is that our dream and ideology is continued by China, Cuba, Vietnam, but it’s hard for them without us - we need to return to a worthy path of social development. We must perceive the past as a source of the future, as a necessary and inevitable path for a great country.

    China is no longer a socialist state. There, all that remained from socialism was crimson-sickle-star symbols, rhetoric, capital punishment, nomenclature, and in some places - architectural style. In general, it is now very capitalist... It is so rich and developed not because it followed socialism, but because it had the cheapest labor - and therefore almost all the world's large companies moved their factories there and made investments in industry. Until Deng Xiaoping began to carry out his liberal reforms, China was a third world country.
    Cuba and Vietnam were and still are third world countries. They live almost entirely on tourism and agricultural supplies. They have become a stagnant swamp.
  91. 0
    5 November 2019 09: 55
    It’s strange that there are more than 600 comments and no one paid attention to the fact that these phrases are fake, which were exposed 10 years ago. They are not in any Soviet publication. Nor in the collected works of Stalin.
    These phrases appeared in the 90s. Apparently they were composed by some communist and went viral.
    If someone doesn’t believe you, try to find a Soviet book with these phrases, you won’t find it.
    1. 0
      5 November 2019 22: 01
      Well, why no one - I also found this “bad guy”!
      1. -1
        12 November 2019 13: 26
        Yes, truly “Russian” words, oh yes, I forgot, it’s probably slang, what did your great-grandfather tell you when he was captured by the bloody KGB?
        1. +1
          13 November 2019 09: 46
          And what, dear, can slang only be “prison-camp”? But what about the youth “clearing”? And “badass” has nothing to do with slang at all. Maybe the whole point is that you yourself are simply not able to give a reasoned answer, and therefore decided to simply find fault with my words? People say it’s true that sometimes it’s better to remain silent and pass for smart...
          PS - just so you know: three relatives in my family died at the front during the Second World War. I’ll say right away that they served in the Red Army and died in battle. And I sincerely wish you not to disgrace yourself.
  92. -1
    20 November 2019 20: 18
    It’s fashionable today to pick around history and pull dead fleas into the light. To ridicule everything that happened and curse leaders who don’t exist! But we must understand what they wanted? What worked and what didn’t? It’s easy today to criticize their dreams and goals when they can’t give the answer yourself!
    1. -2
      20 November 2019 23: 19
      1). You are poking around in history yourself, and you pulled out this “flea” yourself - so there is no point in blaming others if you yourself have a crooked face;
      2). Firstly, we don’t “get ridiculed”, and secondly, we don’t “spoil” ourselves at everything;
      3). What dreams? What are the goals? You are overly romanticizing your idol in wolf form, trying to put “sheep’s clothing” on him. All this tyrant wanted was ABSOLUTE POWER in the Russian Empire, “restored” under a red carpet.
      4). That’s why I see that then, for accidentally expressing criticism of the Soviet government, they could be put up against the wall as an “enemy of the people”, and as a “foreign spy”, and as a “pest”, or they could even be sent to the noose - for a lobotomy. As they say, “if only there were a person, there would always be an article!” In the end, if your tyrant did not allow the generation of that time to criticize his affairs during his lifetime, then we, the current generation, will do this.
  93. 0
    21 November 2019 01: 14
    Quote: Protos
    In the History of Russia there have always been leaders who COULD!
    They were able to annex Crimea, or they couldn’t keep it!
    My PRESIDENT from the FIRST bully

    As I see it, this nice visitor received a minus from someone for his statement about the return of Crimea. Apparently, he received it from some Outskirts/NATO underbelly (for it is difficult to imagine a compatriot who would be fiercely indignant about this), who by “lucky coincidence” ended up here (for Ukrainians know better than anyone how to develop Russia and who should stand in its head - and therefore do not hesitate to express their opinion under the guise of “dissatisfied Russians.” You were like dirt in Moscow at the relatively recent rallies regarding the elections of independent candidates).
  94. -1
    24 November 2019 00: 40
    Well, well, well: as practice shows, there are 2-3 fanatics for whom the truth hurts their eyes, who cannot accept negative criticism of the activities and personality of their idol, who fundamentally ignore the facts that their idol was a lousy leader and a real tyrant, that the USSR was a “prison of nations”, that its history was written and interpreted by the communists themselves in the form of a beautiful, pathetic fairy tale, as they needed for their political purposes. Who, no matter what, are simply trying to conscientiously work out the grants given to them laughing - and who fight dissent by downvoting posts they don’t like. Knights of the Turnip in one word.
  95. 0
    24 September 2022 01: 50
    All my adult life, I wanted, want, and will want, to bring 2 carnations to the grave of Comrade Stalin, buried near the Kremlin wall!

"Right Sector" (banned in Russia), "Ukrainian Insurgent Army" (UPA) (banned in Russia), ISIS (banned in Russia), "Jabhat Fatah al-Sham" formerly "Jabhat al-Nusra" (banned in Russia) , Taliban (banned in Russia), Al-Qaeda (banned in Russia), Anti-Corruption Foundation (banned in Russia), Navalny Headquarters (banned in Russia), Facebook (banned in Russia), Instagram (banned in Russia), Meta (banned in Russia), Misanthropic Division (banned in Russia), Azov (banned in Russia), Muslim Brotherhood (banned in Russia), Aum Shinrikyo (banned in Russia), AUE (banned in Russia), UNA-UNSO (banned in Russia), Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar People (banned in Russia), Legion “Freedom of Russia” (armed formation, recognized as terrorist in the Russian Federation and banned)

“Non-profit organizations, unregistered public associations or individuals performing the functions of a foreign agent,” as well as media outlets performing the functions of a foreign agent: “Medusa”; "Voice of America"; "Realities"; "Present time"; "Radio Freedom"; Ponomarev; Savitskaya; Markelov; Kamalyagin; Apakhonchich; Makarevich; Dud; Gordon; Zhdanov; Medvedev; Fedorov; "Owl"; "Alliance of Doctors"; "RKK" "Levada Center"; "Memorial"; "Voice"; "Person and law"; "Rain"; "Mediazone"; "Deutsche Welle"; QMS "Caucasian Knot"; "Insider"; "New Newspaper"