Military Review

Russian cities waiting for the collapse of the Soviet heat supply system

336
Residents of cities can not afford to maintain and provide repairs to heat sources and heating networks that existed on budgetary funds and funds of state industrial enterprises, which have long been gone.




For example, in Novosibirsk, even if the pace of repair of heating systems is increased threefold, and, accordingly, the amount of financing, in 30 years they will still become completely worthless. The city authorities finally began to realize these realities. That is why a new version of updating the heat supply scheme of the city provides for the preservation of local boiler houses with short networks around them. This project, developed by the Novosibirsk company Korpus, twice successfully passed a public hearing this year. Director of the Corps Candidate of Economic Sciences Yuri Voronov answered questions about the future of the power system of Russian cities.

- Imagine that you can create the perfect heat supply option in Novosibirsk. This year, the mayor’s office adopted the heat supply scheme that you proposed, which is noticeably different from the one drawn and lobbied by SGK last year. Is your heating scheme closer to ideal?

- A decently working heating system cannot exist at all after the last 30 years of not seriously dealing with it. Maintaining the health of heating systems is similar to patching trishkina kaftan, which has worn by 70 percent. And we put all new patches on the decrepit fabric.

Existing tariffs allow even taking into account the rent for city networks paid by the municipality of SIBECO, to repair 1-1,5 percent of the networks per year. According to the standards, at least four are supposed. But even in this case, in the future we will not solve the problem of network modernization. According to my calculations, even when repairing 4 percent of networks annually, the share of their depreciation will not decrease, but increase. In 30 years, wear will reach 100 percent. That is, in 2049, all pipes are easier to turn into scrap metal than to repair.

What SGK promises us today when it asks for permission to raise the heat tariff by almost half in 10 years, looks like a humane form of execution. When the condemned man is blindfolded at the wall and given a smoke before death.

- There are three sources where you can get additional money for repairs: from the population, in the budget and from SGK. Why not take the necessary part of the money from the profits of the owner of SGK billionaire Melnichenko? Although this gentleman is very stingy, he constantly lives on his yachts and thanks to this, he did not even pay taxes on personal income in Russia.

- The word “profit” for an offshore company is an ephemeral thing. Because you can drive everything you want into costs. You can’t even find out what profit offshore.

- Nobody wants to freeze in thirty years. In the end, there are children, grandchildren. But many people cannot afford to pay for heating several times more. Then how can one ensure the energy security of the inhabitants of Novosibirsk?



- I believe that in the current high length of heating networks it is impossible to find enough money to repair them. Therefore, long networks need to be gradually reduced. It is necessary to switch areas remote from the CHP to local heat sources. Who they will belong to is another matter. If SIBEKO and the municipality cannot maintain long networks in order, then it is in the general interest to divide them into local networks concentrated in small radii around a large number of heat sources.

I repeat that there is a threat to security from two sides: due to the construction of new microdistricts, the extension of networks from TPPs continues, and the population does not add money to repair even existing ones. And the necessary funds are unlikely to appear in the future in Novosibirsk. For example, 30 years ago, we made an estimate of the amount of investments that need to be invested in the electrical networks of the USSR in order to bring them to the level of similar networks in the United States. It turned out that investment is almost equal to the cost of building all the power plants for the whole history Soviet Union. Let us be realistic: to maintain in order the heat networks inherited from the USSR that are affordable only for the budget of Moscow and a few of the richest cities in the country.

- As far as I understand, in a crisis situation with heat supply there are new opportunities for business development in the energy sector?

- Yes. High-class professionals, strategic investors, and not portfolio ones, are needed in this area. And paradoxically, the first investor in local boiler houses may be SGK, where some of the best specialists in the region work. In my opinion, it is completely unimportant for the residents of Novosibirsk who will own the new heat sources, SGK or its competitors. If only the owner had qualified personnel.

- So far, SGK is sharply opposed to your strategy for developing distributed Novosibirsk energy. If the company persists, then will we all become hostages of its economic interests?

- I think that the leaders of SGK will understand that neither the population, nor the state, nor this company have the money to bring the existing heat supply systems of large Siberian cities in full order.

I hope that the local, Moscow and foreign leaders of SGK are aware that they are also, to some extent, hostages of the crisis. We are in the same boat. If we drown, then together. In the event of a catastrophic emergency with heat supply, the executives of SGK are doomed to prosecution more severely than we now see with respect to the former owner of SIBECO. Even if he stole something, he still did not freeze anyone, he did not deprive his health.

- Opponents of local boiler houses claim that technologically this is a step backward. Joint production of electricity and heat at large CHPs is more economical and environmentally friendly.

- To a certain extent, today it is a myth. Yes, that was right for the Soviet and current Chinese planned economies. Now in Russia, electricity is bought and sold on the market. Does the thermal power plant have competitive advantages over nuclear and hydroelectric plants? They are not, because heat is not sold at free prices, its cost is controlled by the state. If your price of electricity is determined by the market, and heat by regulated tariffs, then how can you ensure competitive advantages in the electricity market? Seasonal demand is still superimposed on these restrictions: half a year electricity is needed more than heat, half a year the opposite.

“But the CHPP is not only the joint generation of heat and electricity, it is also the scale of production.” It is known that the larger the units, the more economical and environmentally friendly they are. Therefore, in China, for example, emissions from modern CHPPs are 150-200 times lower per unit of power than CHPP-2. And the efficiency is almost one and a half times higher.

- The economic law of economies of scale is not in doubt. But the general patterns from textbooks do not always take into account all the circumstances of doing business. In our case, this is the cost of maintaining heating networks in completely different economic conditions than those for which they were designed. If you do not have money to maintain heating networks, and you are seeking a sharp increase in tariffs to support them, then what is the point of increasing the length of these networks and exacerbating problems?

Due to the mutual influence of the coolant flows, the increase in the costs of maintaining the networks goes faster than their length grows. In addition, large units are less frequently replaced. Therefore, smaller-scale sources of thermal energy use more modern and more economical technologies for fuel combustion. They are better than those that were developed more than 60 years ago and are used at our three old CHP plants. Not to mention the fact that they do not have modern emission control systems and dry ash removal systems, which has become the norm throughout the world, except for Russia. Only we continue to build and operate ash dumps. Even if they are located among residential areas. This is unacceptable, but the elimination of ash dumps and the transition to new technologies will require billions of dollars in investments.

In a market economy, the main question is: who will pay for a brighter future?
Author:
336 comments
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  1. Million
    Million 26 October 2019 09: 01
    +51
    Hucksters rule Russia; In addition to buy and sell, they are no longer capable of anything
    1. Svarog
      Svarog 26 October 2019 09: 03
      +42
      Quote: Million
      Hucksters rule Russia; In addition to buy and sell, they are no longer capable of anything

      They will finish off the Soviet legacy and pack their suitcases ..
      1. carstorm 11
        carstorm 11 26 October 2019 09: 10
        -26
        What does the Soviet legacy have to do with it? conversation in general for another. Soviet heating systems had a service life of no more than 25 years. now technology gives 50. etc. etc.
        1. Svarog
          Svarog 26 October 2019 09: 17
          +32
          Quote: carstorm 11
          What does the Soviet legacy have to do with it?

          Despite the fact that this power cannot create anything, they all have one place through it, they only saw it ..
          1. carstorm 11
            carstorm 11 26 October 2019 09: 20
            -26
            to create a new heating system? Well, let's build roads along the new one)
            1. TAMBU
              TAMBU 26 October 2019 12: 56
              +3
              really ... some kind of stupidity ...
              1. Mavrikiy
                Mavrikiy 27 October 2019 18: 51
                +3
                Quote: TAMBU
                really ... some kind of stupidity ...

                Stupidity is obtained when there is no oil in the head. It is not only for you. The Soviet system stood on standards and SNiPs, PB. GOST in small letters was typed Non-compliance with the standard is punishable by law. , however, as on denyushki, greetings from Joseph Vissarionovich. Now all the certification voluntary. Do you feel the difference? So if you are on SNiP must put this pipe on the heating main, then now bury at least a used pipe (already killed by oilmen. 1 tons annually go to heat and water pipelines, "for the loot won evil" (Chubais)) and only ah-yay-yay will tell you if they prove that they knew and took.
                1. TAMBU
                  TAMBU 27 October 2019 22: 42
                  +1
                  for people like you: it was sarcasm ...
          2. Sling cutter
            Sling cutter 26 October 2019 09: 56
            +48
            Svarog (Vladimir)
            Colleague, the fact is that trillions stolen over 20 years could be rebuilt our country.
            1. Svarog
              Svarog 26 October 2019 10: 01
              +19
              Quote: Stroporez
              Svarog (Vladimir)
              Colleague, the fact is that trillions stolen over 20 years could be rebuilt our country.

              I agree, but these decided to rebuild other countries and continue to do so at our expense, Africa again wrote off the debts .. and we are getting new levies every month .. then Medvedev has already decided to review the fines .. they want to cancel 20 km \ h allowable excess .. They’ve cut the last penny from the people .. and the idea works for them, only as if they were cutting money from the people, sawing it off from the budget and taking everything to the west ..
              1. Sling cutter
                Sling cutter 26 October 2019 10: 17
                +25
                Svarog (Vladimir)
                The population is easily recoverable oil, unlike Siberian, it does not even need to be cashed good
              2. EvilLion
                EvilLion 28 October 2019 15: 44
                0
                That is, the Soviet Union gave a loan to those with whom it is obvious never to get a debt, Russia is now striving for preferences for these debts, turning them into real assets, but for some reason Russia is to blame, which is from the funds thrown into the wind by the Soviet leadership makes at least some profit.

                And yes, you are very strange people, believe that the conditional Chubais is sleeping and sees how to rob you, but for some reason his soul hurts for blacks in Africa. Believe me, as a citizen of the Russian Federation, in any case, something will fall, because you can raise a rebellion, and there are binding laws, and our leadership does not give a damn about the Negro as much as you. Nobody will give blacks anything. More precisely, it was only the USSR that bestowed for assurances of social services. development path, which was replaced by another, if the United States gave more, or even imitated.
                1. 1970mk
                  1970mk 7 November 2019 20: 30
                  0
                  Russia is now breaking preferences for these debts, turning them into real assets,

                  Who is Russia? This, by chance, is not the friends of the billionaires of the World's Best Leader? Are they Assets? To accept "cannibals" for writing off $ 20 billion, do you need to spend 4,5 billion rubles on their reception? Oh, how cool! Considering that it is the amount of just over 4 billion rubles that more than 300 mono cities of the Russian Federation receive through state support per YEAR!
              3. Dimmedroll
                Dimmedroll 1 November 2019 09: 09
                0
                Well, in truth, debts, in fact, were written off 30 years ago, regarding the cancellation of the extra 20 km. For example, I agree. Because almost no one can drive. I had a car. Now no, scary. And in fact, in cities, the speed should not exceed 40 km. This will avoid major problems in any situation on the road. Notice I'm talking about the city. And about the article. Everyone is to blame here, the government is that it went to the abolition of SNIPs. And it also allowed heating systems to fall into private hands, and sometimes into foreign private hands. And the companies that are responsible for the maintenance of heating mains are guilty of saving on materials that are buried in the ground. After all, they want to receive money constantly, and not once every 5-10 years. When laying normal pipes, this figure grows to 25-50 years. So you shouldn’t just put everything on the government here and the operators themselves have adopted the rules of work in the west. Everything is about the same there. But there is no centralized water and heat supply. But the problems are the same.
            2. Nyrobsky
              Nyrobsky 26 October 2019 11: 31
              +28
              Quote: Stroporez
              Colleague, the fact is that trillions stolen over 20 years could be rebuilt our country.

              Something like this. On these babos, instead of old and rusty pipes, it would be possible to bury silver pipes for heating networks throughout Russia, including the most distant outskirts, there would be a state interest in this. But alas, this interest lies in the fact that would throw off from the state the burden of caring for the population, shifting this task onto the shoulders of the population itself. Now all the heating networks will be resold into private hands, and the private trader will pay a tariff that will allow pumping out the necessary amounts from the population. It is difficult to predict whether the pipes will be repaired and replaced, but something suggests that, due to the established traditions, the private trader will disappear along with the money into the vastness of "hostile states", and the average man will remain without money and near a leaky pipe. It's time to go to the village - heat from the stove, water from the well.
              1. Sling cutter
                Sling cutter 26 October 2019 11: 42
                +19
                Nyrobsky (Dmitry)
                Colleague, you won't be able to hide. The fact is that something that we mistakenly call the state, which, in fact, is a completely different organized organization, will steal everything, and what it does not steal will break, burn, drown, and the rest will be filthy with radioactive and stinking garbage dumps. The other day, for example, about 16 thousand will be imported into the Russian Federation. tons of uranium "tails" from Germany. Shies will not have to hold on for a long time either, due to the lack of support.
                So, comrade, here either.
              2. nickname7
                nickname7 26 October 2019 14: 04
                +16
                . throw off the burden of caring for the population from the state, shifting this task to the shoulders of the population itself.

                So the population and raises tariffs.

                .Now all heating systems will be resold to private hands

                For some reason, for the state of the heating system, this is a burden, but for the private owner, the profit is strange as it is.
                It is just necessary that the tariffs go to the maintenance of the heating system, and not to the private owner’s pocket. The oligarch buys yachts and estates for money that the population pays as tariffs, there is already not enough money for pipes. You just need to withdraw the private owner of the feudal lord, who feeds on the industry from the system, (nationalization) then the money will go to maintain the heating system directly, to pipes and repairs.
            3. Vadim237
              Vadim237 26 October 2019 12: 25
              -21
              In Russia, the wear and tear of all funds is worth 86 trillion rubles, what was stolen in Russia in 30 years is not enough and a fifth should be covered.
              1. Sling cutter
                Sling cutter 26 October 2019 12: 44
                +16
                Vadim237 (Vadim) According to experts, 2,5-3 trillika raccoons !!! Allied partners talk about 2. This money is enough to demolish the Russian Federation and rebuild it twice !!! And still remain on a bun with caviar fellow
              2. Nyrobsky
                Nyrobsky 26 October 2019 12: 56
                +17
                Quote: Vadim237
                In Russia, the wear and tear of all funds is worth 86 trillion rubles, what was stolen in Russia in 30 years is not enough and a fifth should be covered.

                Well, for all the funds we are not talking. We are talking about pipes here and talk about what a powerful margin of safety the Communists had laid in the entire infrastructure of the Union, if it was a tribe of liberal locusts that had flown up since the 90s, it had been tirelessly tireless for almost 30 years without investing in modernization, and even if it thinks something to replace, then at the expense of the population, which already unfastens the treasury is not weak in the form of any taxes and fees.
              3. nickname7
                nickname7 26 October 2019 14: 13
                +16
                . In Russia, the wear and tear of all funds is worth 86 trillion rubles, what was stolen in Russia in 30 years is not enough and a fifth should be covered.

                It turns out that the Russian elite is doing exactly the same thing as Britain in India, i.e. are the colonizers of the Russian Federation. Roselita takes out raw resources, Dnepedollars also takes out, and also withdraw funds from updating funds and funds from turnover. Which leads to the sad consequences of decay.
                1. Nick
                  Nick 27 October 2019 13: 36
                  +7
                  Quote: nickname7
                  РџРѕР »СѓС З Р ° ется, С З С‚Рѕ СЂРѕСЃСЃРёР№СЃРєР ° СЏ СЌР» итР°, делР° ет СЂРѕРІРЅРѕ то же СЗРР Рјј 'ритР° РЅРёСЏ РІ Р РЅРґРёРё, С‚.Рµ. СЏРІР »СЏСЋС‚СЃСЏ РєРѕР» РѕРЅРёР · Р ° торР° РјРё Р Р¤. Р РѕСЃСЌР »РёС‚Р ° РІС‹ РІРѕР · РёС ‚ресурсы СЃС ‹СЂРµС †, днеф тедолл Р ° СЂС ‹

                  РР »РёС‚Р ° РЅР ° С † РёРё это инжеенер, РІСЂР ° С З, СѓС З РµРЅС‹ Р№, РєРІР ° Р »РёС„ РёС † РёСЂРѕРІР ° РЅРЂР ° С РёР№, РІРѕРµРЅРЅС ‹Р№, Р ° то, СЗ С‚Рѕ РІС‹ РЅР ° Р · С ‹РІР ° ете СЌР» итой это дерьмо РЅР ° С † РёРё.
              4. SOVIET UNION 2
                SOVIET UNION 2 26 October 2019 14: 45
                +14
                And why do we have such wear and tear? Where did talented managers look? Or are they stupid? So in any case, to drive them from their posts and to demolish them into workers without the right to occupy even the position of foreman. In their place, the turn is outside the gate. Stop cherishing such piece goods! This piece and indispensability is too expensive for us.
                1. Evil Booth
                  Evil Booth 26 October 2019 18: 38
                  -15
                  to the same place where Lenin first collapsed the country and civilian, BECAUSE .... won’t repeat the 9th, and of course it’s the fault of Vovka that then the current flow came to work.
                  1. SOVIET UNION 2
                    SOVIET UNION 2 27 October 2019 12: 23
                    -1
                    The state of the country in 1917, 1945 and 2000 is completely different. Results too. Why was the country pulled out of the worst state than in 2000 faster?
                    1. Evil Booth
                      Evil Booth 27 October 2019 15: 18
                      -3
                      didn’t Lenin send him there? or maybe Stalin is not the 41st year? your one-sidedness and lies for the current realities give you a trolobot like a red-haired gray in a trump
                      1. SOVIET UNION 2
                        SOVIET UNION 2 27 October 2019 18: 36
                        0
                        act his sent there

                        And him, who is this?
                      2. meandr51
                        meandr51 27 October 2019 20: 18
                        +2
                        What's your history at school? Hardly more than three. The tsar was overthrown and destroyed the army not by the Bolsheviks and Lenin, but by the "grand dukes" with the generals and then Kerensky with the "democrats". The Bolsheviks raised the power, which all these mediocrities and thieves abandoned.
                        In the 41st, Stalin made many times more useful than Daladier, Churchill, and other European people put together at the beginning of WWII.
                        So look carefully in the mirror at your one-sidedness.
                      3. Evil Booth
                        Evil Booth 28 October 2019 01: 43
                        -3
                        am that is, civil war vnulenin n brought? on the money of the British and Germans to defeat the country, but the power itself? you are an ordinary troll with you or black or white irregularly segmented.
                2. Vadim237
                  Vadim237 26 October 2019 18: 57
                  -10
                  Some communications have not changed since the end of the 60.
              5. WIKI
                WIKI 26 October 2019 15: 50
                +9
                Quote: Vadim237
                In Russia, the wear and tear of all funds is worth 86 trillion rubles, what was stolen in Russia in 30 years is not enough and a fifth should be covered.

                So if the teeth are not treated on time, in the future you can get a stomach ulcer. Everything must be done on time.
                1. Vadim237
                  Vadim237 26 October 2019 21: 21
                  -5
                  You have such a huge amount of money for this treatment in the 90s and in the beginning of 2000 there was definitely no money for this treatment.
                  1. WIKI
                    WIKI 26 October 2019 22: 59
                    +4
                    What the nayas did not have in the 90s was the government interested in the country's development. Basically, she had developed only grasping reflexes, which have not disappeared anywhere. Take the disappearance of the IMF loan. This fact lies on the surface. 2013: "Slyunyaev noted that experts estimate the volume of investments required by housing and communal services at 9 trillion rubles, the Prime agency reports. According to the minister, this allows us to classify housing and communal services as megaprojects of infrastructural significance, which" have a colossal multiplier effect and social significance "And now there is money, but where is the megaproject? You can see the word" social meaning "in the heads of the current rulers in no way correlates with the word" cut. "
                    1. Vadim237
                      Vadim237 27 October 2019 11: 36
                      -3
                      You probably forgot what happened in the 90s - the country is head over heels in debt, the economy is in a steep decline, everything is broken and stopped, and the government is thin - what the hell could development be in what? "Take the disappearance of the IMF loan" - Is it like someone hung under the IMF's nose? "This fact lies on the surface."
                      Here it’s about the same allegedly stolen loan
                      1. WIKI
                        WIKI 27 October 2019 13: 32
                        +2
                        The liquid power is not because it was made by some kind of external force, but it itself did this thanks to the reforms of Chubais and Gaidar. All her problems were laid back in 1991, to herself. Blah, blah, blah Dubinin, about the alleged fault of left-wing forces that do not allow the government to normalize .... These arguments cause laughter against the background of the replacement of Chernomyrdin with Kiriyenko. In the end, I expected the publication of documents of the Central Bank on spending a loan to maintain the ruble exchange rate. Another blah, blah, from the old square.
                      2. Vadim237
                        Vadim237 27 October 2019 23: 59
                        -3
                        No Blah Blah, the pure truth, the 91st in the country of nichrome there was no money continuous debts that the Soviet Union seized and a completely destroyed economy - without the shock reforms of Chubais and Gaidar, how would you love them very much, we would have hunger and the country would become like African beggars so the country didn’t know how to market, most did not know what and how to do in it, but we simply couldn’t produce most of it because we had severed ties with component manufacturers - in fact, the authorities didn’t do what they wanted everyone else how to survive there is no salary of pensions - they went to crime stealing, etc. And what should the state do to sell everything at low prices, who the hell would buy it and need the money now and the economy was controlled from the shadows by those who had the money Khodorkovsky Berezovsky and other oligarchs who grabbed everything that the state sold for themselves [media = http: // https: //youtu.be/VEgVoj9NPdc]
                      3. WIKI
                        WIKI 28 October 2019 10: 29
                        0
                        Quote: Vadim237
                        the economy was controlled from the shadows by those who had money Khodorkovsky Berezovsky and other oligarchs who stole everything that the state sold for themselves

                        And who is to blame for this fact? Left again? No. All the same Chubais and Gaidar.
                      4. Vadim237
                        Vadim237 28 October 2019 11: 12
                        -2
                        These guys were already on the ground in the enterprise management, Gaidar and Chubais came a little later when everything was seized on the spot - the notice of Chubais and Gaidar did not become oligarchs and even decently rich were the same for all 90s Chubais and by today's standards a rogue.
                      5. WIKI
                        WIKI 28 October 2019 11: 39
                        0
                        In connection with your lamentation over the murdered economy, how do you explain the positive results of the activities of the Primakov-Maslyukov government? I explain this fact only by the fact that there was no Chubais or Gaidar nearby. Regarding the mockery. The name of the owner of the dacha, Sechin Igor Ivanovich, was removed from Rosreestr, and they put the Russian Federation. The same thing and Rosreestr changed the information about the house of the head of the FSB in Moscow and Moscow region Alexei Dorofeev, to "Russian Federation". The state merged into one with such as Chubais.
              6. frog
                frog 27 October 2019 12: 48
                +2
                Could you lend me a reference to 86 trillion? I would be very grateful ..... And at the same time on the amount stolen for 30 years ....
            4. Alien From
              Alien From 26 October 2019 12: 38
              -7
              They stole a little, with the union it was more!
          3. ProkletyiPirat
            ProkletyiPirat 26 October 2019 09: 56
            -41
            Quote: Svarog
            Despite the fact that this power cannot create anything ..

            What does power have to do with it? Especially today? These heating networks were built by the USSR and built through one place, there are a lot of problems and the main problems are not pipes, but buildings, the Soviet heat supply scheme spends most of its energy on heating the street. In the past, when all this was financed at someone else's expense, everything was "beautiful" only the state collapsed. The current government has to either again pump up a lot of money from the budget or completely rebuild cities, while, judging by the new buildings, they are following the first path, because the second will create a bunch of stink in the media directed against the government (insane prices for rent, resettlement, eviction, reduction of living space, new communal apartments, etc. a bunch of other happiness).
            1. Greg Miller
              Greg Miller 26 October 2019 10: 12
              +39
              Today's power is holy and in general is not to blame for anything, it has lifted Russia from its knees! Look at the progress in Russia: in just a year the number of billionaires has grown from 74 to 110, open the site "made with us", turn on the TV !!! But our government was simply not lucky with the people, it is trying for them: it raises the retirement age, taxes, fees, duties ... but these people still do not like it!
            2. Sling cutter
              Sling cutter 26 October 2019 11: 47
              +22
              ProkletyiPirat (Sergey)
              If it weren’t for the Soviet regime, you would still walk in bast shoes and put a tick instead of a signature.
              Remember for yourself that all the infrastructure available in the Russian Federation was built in the USSR!
              And now the rulers are systematically destroying all this or transferring it, like, for example, roads to infrastructure paid for by the population.
              1. Victor N
                Victor N 26 October 2019 14: 46
                -8
                Many do not pay at underestimated (today) tariffs! And the level of urbanization is growing! The time will come and residents of high-rise buildings will fiercely envy village private traders. And escape to the cottages.
                1. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 26 October 2019 16: 14
                  +14
                  Quote: Victor N
                  Many do not pay at underestimated (today) tariffs!

                  This is why they are understated? At the beginning of zero, the communal servants tryndely the same thing, they say, tariffs must be doubled, and then everything will be in openwork. Since then, the devil knows how many rates have risen, but the song about the white bull has not changed? Sometimes I go past communal offices, there are featured cars, and rotten garbage containers cannot be changed.
              2. Vadim237
                Vadim237 27 October 2019 11: 49
                -4
                Yes, especially to remember pipes with asbestos insulation and glass wool. And also remember how this Soviet power in the 60s, our direction of microelectronics essentially buried - they switched to American standards of architecture, cybernetics were filled up for that 123 world rogues were put on their necks, and then people were surprised, "We produce everything but in everything there is a deficit" There is nothing from the export supplies of the USSR earned 74 billion exports, imports 68 billion dollars.
            3. at84432384
              at84432384 26 October 2019 13: 44
              +18
              And what kind of new cities did this power build ?! This power only closed and closes settlements, and even the quantity itself does not know, in the reporting accuracy is listed up to hundreds.
            4. SOVIET UNION 2
              SOVIET UNION 2 26 October 2019 14: 55
              +18
              What are you? The USSR built these heating systems !? And Putin said that the USSR only made black galoshes! Well, if the USSR built so poorly, why did capitalist experts not do well in a quarter century? Is capitalism more effective than socialism? So where is the effect of capitalism? Where did he appear? Judging by the new buildings, there are almost none. And those that have been built for a long time are unpopulated. Even two and three-story buildings. Why is it a problem to sell these unfortunate 30 apartments. And in large cities, for some reason, they buy more one-room kennels.
              1. Vadim237
                Vadim237 27 October 2019 11: 52
                0
                Something in the West of such problems with communications as we do not observe.
            5. ProkletyiPirat
              ProkletyiPirat 26 October 2019 19: 27
              -6
              Wow, how many people with propaganda mess in their heads, each "smart guy" saw something of his own in my post, some saw the abuse of the USSR, others praise capitalism, third praises of the current government, etc. In general, "who has something that hurts about and he says, "The funny thing is that personally I am not a supporter of either capitalism, or communism, or the current government, or the opposition authorities. Personally, I generally think that our life is better made by technology, not people, and it is about technology that I wrote. After all, the essence of the problem of city heating is
              1) low population density per unit area, and as a result, high capital expenditures per person
              2) long routes of the heating system and as a result of the loss of energy for street heating
              3) the lack of centralized ventilation systems in the houses and, as a result, open loggias, windows, windows, and as a result, heating the street again
              The solution of all these three root problems will require the restructuring of cities and as a result will create a bunch of social problems, it is clear that the essence of these problems will depend on how to solve them.
              1. IS-80_RVGK2
                IS-80_RVGK2 2 November 2019 10: 01
                -2
                Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                low population density per unit area, and as a result, high capital expenditures per person

                You didn’t confuse this with the village for an hour?
                Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                long routes of the heating system and as a result of energy loss for street heating

                Very strange. How long? And did not try to warm them? They say it helps.
                Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                lack of centralized ventilation systems in the houses and, as a result, open loggias, windows, windows, and as a result, heating of the street again

                Is it like everyone has their own system separately? Didn’t you get sick there for an hour?
            6. meandr51
              meandr51 27 October 2019 20: 22
              0
              No need to tryndet, I have an apartment in a house built in 1940. The walls there are twice as thick as modern ones. Hot in winter and cool in summer. By the way, Soviet cast-iron pipes and batteries from the times of "Stalinist repressions" are still in service.
          4. depressant
            depressant 26 October 2019 10: 05
            +19
            I had a chance to read about the problem of heat supply in Novosibirsk a week ago. Yes, Melnichenko is ugly. The author Matveev even softened the situation somewhat. So to say, partially neutralized. And then I thought: where did such Melnichenko come from among us?
            And I recalled the situation.
            Once, long ago, when it was still supposed to calculate the amount of payment for electricity in bills myself, I made a mistake and counted 5 with a penny rubles for my kilowatts. Instead of 4 kopecks. The operator, taking fees only for electricity (he had to go to the regional center), saw this, and, making round eyes, exclaimed in fright: "What do you mean! If there will be at least five, the people will rise up! Let's count."
            Years have passed ... I pay 5.56 per kilowatt. Everyone pays like that. Nobody raises an uprising. Either the operator had an exaggerated idea of ​​the protest potential of the people - after all, she worked "on the ground," she heard a lot from all kinds of people; or the protest potential of the population has died out forever. Maybe because now we don't look eye to eye. There is a distant settlement center, sends a payment order, I pay in Sberbank. Do not express your anger to the bank operator. And generations have grown up who do not know what was 4 and a penny, and not 5 with them.
            So, the inhabitants of Novosibirsk will freeze, they will freeze! And do not hesitate. But the peoples of Africa will be warmed not only by the forgiven $ billions, but also by the new irrevocable billions from our state budget as a gift to the rulers of those territories from the bowels of which our oligarchs will pump $ into their pockets. We, the population of the whole country, will meekly pay this new opportunity with new taxes from our pockets.
            And whoever doesn’t like it, let them move to Africa. It is unlikely that the authorities will care if the freezing population of Novosibirsk in full force moves there.
            1. nickname7
              nickname7 26 October 2019 14: 37
              +6
              . Melnichenko

              It is necessary to bring in soft nationalization, to buy at the prices (water utilities, power plants) the heating networks for which there was privatization, remove intermediaries, create non-profit organizations, the heating system should work not for profit, but for providing the population with heat. Salary nets, without the ability to arbitrarily set their own salaries, technical regulations for pipe repairs and replacements, such a system will work like a clock.
              Parasitic oligarchic structures pumping money out of the population should not be, then everything will work out.

              The market is good in trade, but in energy in heating networks, the market is evil.
              1. Alf
                Alf 26 October 2019 17: 46
                +4
                Quote: nickname7
                . Melnichenko

                It is necessary to smuggle in soft nationalization, to buy at the prices (water utilities, power plants) heating networks that privatization was going to take place, remove intermediaries, create non-profit organizations, the heating system should work not for profit, but for providing the population with heat. Salary nets, without the ability to arbitrarily set their own salaries, technical regulations for pipe repairs and replacements, such a system will work like a clock.
                Parasitic oligarchic structures pumping money out of the population should not be, then everything will work out.

                The market is good in trade, but in energy in heating networks, the market is evil.

                I.e.to return to socialism? SOMETHING in 2000 said, There will be no return to socialism. This SOMETHING still steers (or pretends to steers). Do you expect anything else from him?
            2. SOVIET UNION 2
              SOVIET UNION 2 26 October 2019 15: 05
              +10
              With the demolition of socialism, many were led to private property. Everyone thought that they were the most cunning and smartest, and the housing and communal services robbed them. laughing In reality, it turned out that many live on someone else's private property for which you need to pay big money. Especially mortgages. All my life I’ll pay for renting an apartment and when it will be on the verge of a major overhaul, become its owner. tongue Although the owners of the inherited apartments are also not enthusiastic. Housing and communal services in relation to salary increased significantly. And they already make up 50-100% of the salary. Some already pay with one salary for housing and communal services, and feed on another (I'm talking about spouses).
          5. pros000007
            pros000007 26 October 2019 11: 13
            +14
            Quote: Svarog
            Quote: carstorm 11
            What does the Soviet legacy have to do with it?

            Despite the fact that this power cannot create anything, they all have one place through it, they only saw it ..
            this power is well able to create only all kinds of corruption schemes - it was stolen, taken to offshore and so on in a circle again
          6. Observer2014
            Observer2014 26 October 2019 17: 21
            +8
            Quote: Svarog
            Quote: carstorm 11
            What does the Soviet legacy have to do with it?

            Despite the fact that this power cannot create anything, they all have one place through it, they only saw it ..

            YES! And nothing more.
            The topic of this article is literally close to me! And in the problems of heating systems I think better than anyone on the site. I can give a lecture to anyone on the problems of providing heating. This is my work
            1. Observer2014
              Observer2014 26 October 2019 17: 52
              +2
              Quote: Observer2014
              to honor
              Read. I apologize for the typo is boiling. It is boiling in this article and in general with the state of affairs on the site. hi
        2. tihonmarine
          tihonmarine 26 October 2019 10: 12
          +7
          Quote: carstorm 11
          Now technology gives 50. etc. etc.

          You are a naive person, sorry.
        3. Olgovich
          Olgovich 26 October 2019 10: 59
          +7
          Quote: carstorm 11
          conversation in general for another. Soviet heating systems had a service life of no more than 25 years. Now technology gives 50.

          The point, after all, is not only in the networks, but also in the heat source.

          Hot water from a thermal power station (heat carrier in heating systems) is side product of electricity production at a thermal power plant.

          Either simply pour it (which is stupid), or use it on a communal farm.
          Therefore, TS networks are needed, it is beneficial in every sense, because no need to specifically produce heat in boiler rooms.

          in the West, this has long been carried out and centralized vehicles are being built from the CHPP (to a certain length).


          Another thing is that the cost of transport, with a certain length of the network, is already becoming unprofitable and cheaper to install gas boiler rooms with their own local network.

          With this, we must determine, and not rush from one extreme to another ...
          1. Town Hall
            Town Hall 26 October 2019 11: 59
            -12
            Quote: Olgovich
            It or just pour it out (which is stupid)

            Oh well? Directly pour it out?)) Do you have a clue how the CHP cycle works?
            Quote: Olgovich
            in the West, this has long been carried out and centralized vehicles are being built from the CHPP (to a certain length)

            You have no idea that in the West this type of heating occupies a tiny 10% of the market and is concentrated mainly in the countries of the former social bloc because you have not had time to switch to normal heating). This is the most inefficient and expensive type of heating. Write better about the state emitter
            1. Proxima
              Proxima 26 October 2019 12: 32
              +7
              Quote: Town Hall
              Write better about the emperor

              And you better not write anything, because you write nonsense! fool Olgovich is absolutely right! And the fact that in the West 10 percent use such a heating system is not due to the fact that this system is not effective. There are completely different reasons, ranging from climatic ones, but the main problem is that for this method of heating we need a state-run program designed for many years, again with plentiful funding for many years. And this huckster is not necessary. Money, he and his greedy little family now need.
            2. Olgovich
              Olgovich 26 October 2019 12: 55
              +1
              Quote: Town Hall
              Oh well? Directly pour it out?)) Do you have a clue how the CHP cycle works?

              The guest worker from Moldova in Italy completely forgot Russian: WHERE it says "pouring outgt;"?
              Quote: Town Hall
              You have no idea that in the West this type of heating occupies a meager 10% of the market and is concentrated mainly in the countries of the former social block

              You have no idea what's in the West (Stockholm, Sweden) 70% of the heating is from the CENTRAL heat supply from the CHP.
              Denmark He has extensive experience and traditions in the use of district heating and favorable conditions for its development with the use of thermal power plants. So, 80% of the country's population lives in urban areas, the country has a high annual consumption of thermal energy and a long heating season, almost all large power plants are located in close proximity to major cities. As a result, district heating is the most common source of heat. Systems district heating systems exist in more than 450 cities.
              The same is in Norway, Sweden, etc.
              Quote: Town Hall
              This is the most inefficient and expensive type of heating. Write better about the state emirator

              fool
              Write better about your ancestors, the ancient Romans and their descendants "victors" -Romanians.
              1. Town Hall
                Town Hall 26 October 2019 13: 18
                -3
                Quote: Olgovich
                WHERE does it say "pour out"?

                You have problems with short-term memory.
                Either simply pour it (which is stupid), or use it on a communal farm
                Quote: Olgovich
                As a result, district heating is the most common source of heat.

                Unless in your dreams. In Europe, this system occupies less than 10% of the market. 90% of consumers reject it as inefficient and expensive. Theories of a retired imperial pensioner who lives on state-owned Moldavian grubs do not convince them
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 27 October 2019 09: 08
                  +1
                  Quote: Town Hall
                  You have problems with short-term memory.

                  You have a problem: no knowledge of the language. Learn.
                  Quote: Town Hall
                  Except in your dreams. In Europe, this system occupies less than 10% of the market. 90% of consumers reject it as inefficient and expensive.

                  For NORTHERN Europe, it is very profitable, what facts are given to you, on which you can only spray with saliva.
                  And Novosibirsk is a NORTHERN city.
                  Quote: Town Hall
                  the eories of a pensioner-imperz who stays on state grubs of Moldavia do not convince them

                  you can’t convince the Polomoevs, it’s not their mind. yes
          2. nickname7
            nickname7 26 October 2019 14: 43
            +4
            Boiler houses, thermal power plants, this is one question, and the number of parasites, merchants, owners of a piece of pipe, who collects a fee for the right to own a pipe, as the feudal lord used to pay for passage through his territory, this is the second question.
          3. SOVIET UNION 2
            SOVIET UNION 2 26 October 2019 15: 16
            +2
            Do not reinvent the wheel. Everything was calculated back in the USSR. But some considered themselves smarter. With the presence of production in modern Russia, the boiler room of the enterprise could sell heat to the nearest microdistrict. Local boiler house to heat your neighborhood. And the private sector drowns itself. Today they focus either on the house boiler room (own boiler room in the house), or on apartment heating (own boiler in the apartment). Over time, let's look at the effectiveness of this option. While the boiler room is new, everything is fine. And how will they raise money for repairs or replacements?
          4. evgic
            evgic 26 October 2019 18: 47
            +3
            The first thoughtful comment is not a burdened tantrum
        4. srelock
          srelock 26 October 2019 11: 12
          +5
          Designed for 50-60 years, the hydraulic network will be quite expensive. I think 20 years is the most, taking into account the speed of construction of new areas.

          On the topic of the article. The author is probably not aware that replacing a single large network with several small ones will not change the overall length of the network, its losses and maintenance costs, but will require the construction of additional expensive facilities and their maintenance.
          This approach will only increase the cost of the service for subscribers, but cut one big monopoly into small ones. That is, a large number of those who wish will be able to "connect" to the trough and for more money.
          1. Tatyana Pershina
            Tatyana Pershina 26 October 2019 14: 14
            +3
            ".... replacing a single large network with several small ones will not change the total length of the network,"
            Why not replace? Local block gas boiler houses designed to heat the quarter have worked well in many cities of Russia.
            1. srelock
              srelock 26 October 2019 16: 27
              0
              Development and replacement are somewhat different things, but in general similar boiler houses worked well in the USSR 60 years ago, but they were built only where their use was justified. For example, in S.-Pb. these are mainly central districts with once stove heating, very remote from large thermal power plants, now these are new residential complexes, which are connected to noun. networks is not possible / not appropriate.
        5. Proxima
          Proxima 26 October 2019 12: 08
          +13
          Quote: carstorm 11
          What does the Soviet legacy have to do with it?

          Indeed, what is the legacy? From the USSR, apart from the "imperfect" heat supply system, we got tens of thousands of enterprises - ferrous and non-ferrous metallurgical plants, many machine-building enterprises, giant power plants, etc. And what an INJUSTICE (!!!) crying - these enterprises need to be updated periodically! And it’s so good, just to put a paw into the fund of the enterprise and engage in "optimization". Has anyone wondered why there was a terrible accident at the Sayano-Shuyenskaya hydroelectric power station? The answer is banal - "saved" on prevention! Any schoolchild will say that it is extremely expensive to build a hydroelectric power station, and it is extremely easy to operate! And then they managed to get rid of it in full!
          1. Siberian54
            Siberian54 27 October 2019 06: 39
            +2
            You're right! Their Ministry of Emergency Situations warned about an accident for a year .. but cheaper bolts of fastening of a cover of a wheel were delivered and the turbine did not live up to planned repair .. more than fifty coffins, heads are already free with a clear conscience ...
        6. Sibiriya
          Sibiriya 26 October 2019 14: 32
          +6
          The Soviet heat supply system was laid on the basis of a socialist economic formation, for which it is simpler and cheaper to build and maintain large units (for example, thermal power plants) and their infrastructure from common funds. Under capitalist, the added value goes into the pocket of the capitalists, and there is no one to maintain the Soviet system of heat supply and to modernize it. Another attempt to solve the problem and create a new system and its infrastructure at the expense of the population, in fact another cut and redistribution of the heat supply market.
        7. Observer2014
          Observer2014 26 October 2019 17: 16
          +3
          Quote: carstorm 11
          What does the Soviet legacy have to do with it? conversation in general for another. Soviet heating systems had a service life of no more than 25 years. now technology gives 50. etc. etc.

          What do you personally think about this? Are you a heating worker? laughing
        8. I am
          I am 26 October 2019 21: 08
          +3
          you are an optimist. In Saratov last year, pipes were replaced on Gorky Street (in the vicinity of house No. 1). They put the very modern ones with insulation, valves with electronic control, etc. This year, the fountain was torn into three streets, the heater was torn off, the seams and holes were welded in the old proven way, I am silent about the electronically controlled valves, but I'm not sure if it’s good after swimming in boiling water for one day ..... back the heater did not set. buried as is. And where is 50 years then ???
        9. kin
          kin 27 October 2019 17: 36
          0
          In Kazakhstan, they exploit the Soviet legacy. Here is an example from the life of Nenergo privatized all regional local thermal power plants. And he began to pursue a policy of fears, like that person in the article, i.e. if you don’t do as we want, then everything will be bent. The city leadership asked the shareholders - write down the entire tariff, all the profits went to the owners of the joint-stock company. As a result, the CHP changed its owner and the issue was closed.
          What kind of electricity market? Everything has been divided there for a long time — the same stations, power lines. In the same Kazakhstan, its surplus, capacity is idle. You can write a whole book about it.
        10. aybolyt678
          aybolyt678 27 October 2019 18: 36
          0
          Quote: carstorm 11
          What does the Soviet legacy have to do with it?

          In 1990, at a lecture on economics, we were told that our heating systems were designed for operation for 30 years. And that after 30 years, a catastrophe awaits us if we do not cooperate with the West, which will save us with technologies for the preservation of pipes! laughing All repeats...
          But Kara Murza just proves that the Soviet boiler system in our climate is the most viable and economical.
        11. Obi-Wan Kenobi
          Obi-Wan Kenobi 29 October 2019 06: 33
          0
          What does the Soviet legacy have to do with it? conversation in general for another. Soviet heating systems had a service life of no more than 25 years. now technology gives 50. etc. etc.

          And for all that.
          Our heating also did not really work, because the boiler room was already 60 years old. Okay. Nothing to do. Abandoned central heating. Chucked the whole house and bought a gas mini boiler room. Connected. In the apartment in winter they began to walk in shorts, plus no need to wait for anyone, it was cold, go turn on the boiler.
          And what do you think? How long did this happiness last? Exactly 2 years. Then they came to us, broke the boiler room and reconnected to the central heating. And it became cold again at home.
          And the reason is very simple - the House stopped paying for heating. That is all. This is one house, and if everyone does? What then to do with the central boiler room? Shut her up?
          But figs to you all!
          Break the mini boiler room and let it be cold, but you will pay the money anyway.
      2. Desdecado
        Desdecado 26 October 2019 13: 39
        +5
        They will not pack their bags wherever they are, they have already studied us perfectly, the people are intimidated and silent. On the resources of our vast Motherland alone, they can parasitize for decades, as now and centuries in the future.
      3. Victor N
        Victor N 26 October 2019 14: 32
        -8
        In Soviet times, the reproduction of housing and communal infrastructure did not bother too painfully. New facilities were created without rational justification; capacities were significantly overstated relative to real needs. Now the depreciation of fixed assets of housing and communal services is colossal throughout the country, the problem has been launched, they DO NOT WANT to realize it.
        As for the "hucksters" .... Consumers (including WE) do not want to pay at the current tariffs, which are understated in relation to the need for funds for restoration. Each increase causes a heart-rending howl.
        And it is urgently necessary to restore, since at the current level of wear and tear, large-scale man-made accidents and disasters are already inevitable. Just imagine a big accident on a sewer collector, with its decommissioning for a week: you need to turn off the water supply, which entails a shutdown of the heat supply, and then the power supply (the power grids will not withstand the maximum load). Nightmare! And after all, quickly building toilets in modern "yards" is also problematic ...
        It is necessary to equip Russia - from Moscow to the very outskirts! Systematically, persistently, clenching your teeth! Everyone, not blaming everything on power.
      4. Geo⁣
        Geo⁣ 27 October 2019 22: 14
        +4
        At a meeting in the Kremlin:
        - The third stage of privatization is completed, now everything belongs to us. It’s time to think about the people!
        - Yes, Vladimir Vladimirovich, a shower of 500 for a start would not be bad ...
      5. EvilLion
        EvilLion 28 October 2019 15: 38
        0
        The USSR has been gone for 28 years, no "Soviet legacy" has remained, its resource has run out. Everything that you are currently consuming is already built in the Russian Federation.
    2. elfik
      elfik 26 October 2019 09: 49
      +13
      Quote: Million
      Hucksters rule Russia; In addition to buy and sell, they are no longer capable of anything
      Chronic underfunding of the heat supply system. The entire vertical of power is rotten - kickbacks, cuts, buddies, godmothers.
      1. Million
        Million 26 October 2019 09: 52
        +7
        About that and speech.
      2. Sling cutter
        Sling cutter 26 October 2019 09: 58
        +7
        Elf (Vadim)
        A colleague, and you can name at least one sector of the economy, except for banks, which would be normally funded
        1. tihonmarine
          tihonmarine 26 October 2019 10: 15
          +5
          Quote: Stroporez
          A colleague, and you can name at least one sector of the economy, except for banks, which would be normally funded

          Banks do not need to be financed, they will tear everything they need out of us with you. As in the entire capitalist world - "The banks are not touched."
          1. Sling cutter
            Sling cutter 26 October 2019 10: 22
            +11
            tihonmarine (Vlad)
            We have nothing to do with the capitalist world, and our banks are a thieves' common fund, not a financial instrument. bully
            1. tihonmarine
              tihonmarine 26 October 2019 10: 33
              +3
              Quote: Stroporez
              We have nothing to do with the capitalist world

              Excuse me, but then I’ll ask the question "What kind of society do we live in, or rather, what kind of society does Russia live in?"
              1. Sling cutter
                Sling cutter 26 October 2019 10: 42
                +12
                tihonmarine (Vlad)
                in criminal kleptocratic sad
                1. Vadim237
                  Vadim237 26 October 2019 12: 30
                  +1
                  In a speculative fraud - capitalist Russia lives.
                  1. Sling cutter
                    Sling cutter 26 October 2019 12: 33
                    +8
                    Vadim237 (Vadim)
                    I don’t believe my eyes, have you really seen the light? wink
                    1. Vadim237
                      Vadim237 26 October 2019 18: 59
                      0
                      What it is to see clearly is how there is gouging and indifference to officials and citizens of the Russian Federation.
                      1. Sling cutter
                        Sling cutter 26 October 2019 19: 19
                        +2
                        Vadim237 (Vadim) Well, it’s like you had production, you traded in spare parts, the authorities praised that something had gone wrong? belay
                      2. Vadim237
                        Vadim237 26 October 2019 21: 25
                        -5
                        What does it mean - it still exists, only I don’t sell spare parts, the guys make them to order and I praise Putin - and not all the power.
                      3. Sling cutter
                        Sling cutter 26 October 2019 23: 31
                        +1
                        Vadim237 (Vadim) It's funny! All the same, you are waiting for the flies to devour the cutlet, or the cutlet of flies, or "she drowned" .. It's a pity that you, like many here, did not serve in the army ...
                      4. Vadim237
                        Vadim237 27 October 2019 12: 01
                        -1
                        I served a term in the railway troops in Yaroslavl. And the flies will not be able to eat the cutlet - they have no Chelitzer for this, and the cutlet itself with flies will not do anything "She drowned" - A simple answer to the stupid questions of any reporters of idiots.
                      5. Sling cutter
                        Sling cutter 27 October 2019 12: 03
                        -2
                        Vadim237 (Vadim) Then sorry! hi drinks
                2. tihonmarine
                  tihonmarine 26 October 2019 13: 37
                  +3
                  Quote: Stroporez
                  in criminal kleptocratic

                  The same capitalism, only wild.
                  1. SOVIET UNION 2
                    SOVIET UNION 2 26 October 2019 15: 22
                    +2
                    Does manual or home capitalism exist?
                    1. tihonmarine
                      tihonmarine 26 October 2019 15: 40
                      +1
                      Quote: SOVIET UNION 2
                      Does manual or home capitalism exist?

                      If you have a cat, a dog and a parrot at home.
                      1. SOVIET UNION 2
                        SOVIET UNION 2 26 October 2019 15: 43
                        0
                        There is also homemade sausage. wink
              2. at84432384
                at84432384 26 October 2019 14: 05
                +8
                RF lives in a modernized feudal society. Entire regions and industries have been given over to "feeding" the new feudal lords. Capitalism differed from feudalism in several things, the most essential: industrial credit and, as a consequence, expanded reproduction. In 2018, industrial loans accounted for 5% of the loan portfolio of the Russian banking system, i.e. in fact, there are none. The government estimates GDP growth at around 1%, and the Central Bank clarifies that all this growth is provided by ... consumer loans from the population! Those. there is an obvious decline in production. Where is "capitalism" here ?! Only the monstrous exploitation of the subsoil and the people who have become living oil.
              3. nickname7
                nickname7 26 October 2019 14: 48
                +7
                ... And what kind of society do we live in, or rather, what kind of society does Russia live in? "

                In pyrifiric capitalism, in a raw material colony, where the government is a colonial administration.
      3. Victor N
        Victor N 27 October 2019 10: 46
        -2
        Consumers themselves must pay for heating in the sizes necessary for functioning and reproduction. No one else is obliged to finance. And do not forget that a very significant part of fellow citizens initially independently provide themselves with heat by buying firewood, coal, gas.
        1. alstr
          alstr 27 October 2019 13: 51
          0
          You’re kind of twofold. On the one hand, yes, you don’t have to. But in this case, everyone will move to live where it is more convenient / profitable. And then God will remain in Siberia if one third of the population in large cities is closer to the southern borders.
          All the rest will move to Moscow, St. Petersburg and a friend to big cities, as well as where it is warmer.

          But if the state is not interested in such an outcome, then it should compensate for the normal living expenses of the population. Including the maintenance of public networks (not only about warm speech) in a healthy state.
          1. Victor N
            Victor N 28 October 2019 15: 43
            +1
            Just in large cities and will be the biggest problems. State support is needed, but from what source? From the budget, due to taxes, from you to pay heating to someone who does not pay taxes at all?
            1. alstr
              alstr 28 October 2019 21: 42
              0
              And then the economy comes into play. In a large city (we mean millionaires), in general, the average number of storeys and building density is higher than even in an average city.
              It follows that central heating is getting cheaper, because one and the same network accounts for more consumers.

              In addition, large cities and with the economy proper are much better than in smaller cities. Hence, it’s better with finances.
    3. nickname7
      nickname7 26 October 2019 15: 06
      +8
      The watchmakers grabbed the heating systems and feed from them, no matter how much the tariffs increase, everything will go into a bottomless pocket. Attempts to bombard a private trader with money so that part of the money still comes to repair the heating system is tactically incorrect.
    4. Zero.A
      Zero.A 26 October 2019 15: 47
      +8
      I completely agree with you how I directly work during the installation and repair of heating networks, an elementary example from the last facility, more than 100 million rubles were laid on a 219-meter-long network section of 10 mm in diameter, although even half a million does not work out with material and wages, so think what are the remaining funds spent on
  2. Aviator_
    Aviator_ 26 October 2019 09: 05
    +15
    In a market economy, the main question is: who will pay for a brighter future?

    Either the oligarchs should be shaken (progressive tax), or the "market economy" should be abandoned. Tercium non datur.
    1. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 26 October 2019 09: 12
      -22
      and who are our oligarchs then?) maybe rich people will just speak more correctly? and
      1. Ross xnumx
        Ross xnumx 26 October 2019 09: 33
        +15
        Quote: carstorm 11
        maybe just rich people will speak more correctly?

        Perhaps it would be correct to say "rich people" if a fortune was made (like Sergei Galitsky - from "0"). And if it appeared overnight with the help of tough guys with a firearm and rewriting the registers of owners - sorry, this is just the most common corruption:
        a term that usually refers to the use by an official of his authority and the rights entrusted to him, as well as the authority, opportunities and connections connected with this official status for personal gain, contrary to law and moral principles. Corruption is also called bribery of officials, their corruption, bribery, which is typical for mafia states. The corresponding term in European languages ​​usually has a broader semantics stemming from the primary meaning of the original Latin word.
        1. carstorm 11
          carstorm 11 26 October 2019 10: 18
          -8
          So what? I’m talking about an oligarchy which, as it were, is not in the sense in which this term is understood. and I didn’t mean anything else.
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 26 October 2019 12: 39
            +7
            Quote: carstorm 11
            I’m talking about an oligarchy which, as it were, is not in the sense in which this term is understood.

            But Rotenberg is not your oligarch?
            1. carstorm 11
              carstorm 11 26 October 2019 15: 51
              -6
              Well, what is his place in the government? or does he have his own party?
              1. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 26 October 2019 16: 06
                +9
                Quote: carstorm 11
                Well, what is his place in the government?

                Officially, no, so, on the hump of the guarantor rides.
                1. Fan-fan
                  Fan-fan 27 October 2019 13: 35
                  -1
                  Does it ride? Then the guarantor intends to throw it. That's what it means to substitute a guarantor in time.
      2. Mcar
        Mcar 26 October 2019 11: 54
        +5
        Quote: carstorm 11
        and who are our oligarchs then?) maybe rich people will just speak more correctly? and

        No, it’s not correct.

        The oligarch is, as a rule, a very rich and influential person who formed his fortune and influence thanks to political connections and dubious, most often corrupt actions.

        The whole point of your error is that almost every oligarch is a millionaire, but not every millionaire is an oligarch. If a person earned his capital as a successful businessman without using political connections, then he is, by definition, not an oligarch.
        1. SOVIET UNION 2
          SOVIET UNION 2 26 October 2019 15: 28
          +3
          If a person earned his capital as a successful businessman without using political connections, then he is, by definition, not an oligarch.
          And if I'm an official, and my wife does business. Who is she? And if my dad is an official, and I do business. Who am I? And if I studied, worked, served once with the president, and now I am engaged in business. Who am I?
          1. Mcar
            Mcar 26 October 2019 15: 31
            +1
            Quote: SOVIET UNION 2
            If a person earned his capital as a successful businessman without using political connections, then he is, by definition, not an oligarch.
            And if I'm an official, and my wife does business. Who is she? And if my dad is an official, and I do business. Who am I? And if I studied, worked, served once with the president, and now I am engaged in business. Who am I?

            Little data for an accurate answer.

            If a person acquired his condition and influence, thanks to political connections and dubious, most often corrupt actions, then he is an oligarch. If everything is the same, but without political ties and corrupt actions - just a rich man.
            1. Alf
              Alf 26 October 2019 17: 56
              +3
              Quote: McAr
              If everything is the same, but without political ties and corrupt actions - just a rich man.

              Under such conditions, a rich person will not work.
          2. Siberian54
            Siberian54 27 October 2019 06: 46
            +2
            If your business does not hurt the interests of the dad's official, then you are a businessman, and if you are intertwined then you are an organized mafia group.
        2. carstorm 11
          carstorm 11 26 October 2019 15: 52
          -1
          in my understanding and the terms that I taught, this is primarily a person who politically affects the life of the country. holds government posts or sponsors parties.
      3. Alf
        Alf 26 October 2019 17: 54
        +4
        Quote: carstorm 11
        and who are our oligarchs then?) maybe rich people will just speak more correctly? and

        Precisely, exactly.
        Do you know the words "We have no oligarchs, we have socially responsible (?) Businessmen"?
      4. Victor N
        Victor N 27 October 2019 10: 51
        -1
        The local officers do not always understand what they are writing about.
      5. Varyag71
        Varyag71 28 October 2019 13: 15
        -1
        It’s a pity that you can’t swear here. I would say that I think about you.
        1. Victor N
          Victor N 28 October 2019 15: 47
          0
          Not scary, let's get counted. But you need to think, not the old dogmas.
    2. mavrus
      mavrus 26 October 2019 09: 33
      +13
      Progressive tax?
      "This is not our method. Where is humanism?"
      Why offend our popularly beloved oligarchs, we’d better all freeze out or die of hunger, and make sure that they not only do not pay taxes, but also receive subsidies from the budget, and every year they are richer and richer, we are happy .
      1. Sling cutter
        Sling cutter 26 October 2019 10: 02
        +12
        mavrus (Andrey)
        Too much money is spent on the purchase of musical instruments.
        Be aware of this. hi
      2. Vadim237
        Vadim237 26 October 2019 12: 36
        -7
        A progressive tax will be effective only if it is applied to firms earning more than a billion rubles a year in net profit, introduce it to everyone in a row - prices will skyrocket and the shadow economy will increase.
        1. SOVIET UNION 2
          SOVIET UNION 2 26 October 2019 15: 31
          +2
          Well, that's what it's called progressive. Let's say up to half a million a year you don’t pay anything. From half a million to a billion 13%. Over 90 billion you give back.
        2. Alf
          Alf 26 October 2019 17: 57
          +5
          Quote: Vadim237
          A progressive tax will be effective only if it is applied to firms earning more than a billion rubles a year in net profit, introduce it to everyone in a row - prices will skyrocket and the shadow economy will increase.

          But how does Europe and the United States live with such a tax?
          1. Vadim237
            Vadim237 26 October 2019 19: 03
            -1
            "How does Europe and the United States live with such a tax?" And there is no need to compare Russia with them - we are all greedy.
            1. Alf
              Alf 26 October 2019 19: 07
              +3
              Quote: Vadim237
              we are all greedy.

              "All" is you?
              1. Vadim237
                Vadim237 26 October 2019 21: 27
                -3
                I am moderately greedy - I keep the price tags in the middle.
            2. New Year day
              New Year day 26 October 2019 21: 08
              +3
              Quote: Vadim237
              we are all greedy.

              so they live by the principle of "grab the bags the station departs"
              1. Vadim237
                Vadim237 28 October 2019 00: 03
                -3
                In Russia, most of them live like this - it’s time for you to wake up already.
    3. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 26 October 2019 10: 15
      +1
      Quote: Aviator_
      or abandon the "market economy". Tercium non datur.

      And how do you imagine that ?
      1. Aviator_
        Aviator_ 26 October 2019 17: 48
        0
        About the same as it was 102 years ago.
        1. tihonmarine
          tihonmarine 26 October 2019 20: 41
          0
          Quote: Aviator_
          About the same as it was 102 years ago.

          So it had to be done in 1992 year.
    4. Karen
      Karen 26 October 2019 10: 53
      +6
      It’s necessary to shake, and not a progressive tax, namely, what to shake ... Here we began to shake the former bureaucrats, and these began to voluntarily and forcibly refuse from the millions and tens of millions of bucks in favor of the state ... It’s bad that, most likely , while only a tenth of the grabbed one is being returned, but the prime minister promises us that they will return it to the last penny ... Now, they are preparing a law ... The owners of the mansions will have to report on the source of these costs ...
      1. Alf
        Alf 26 October 2019 17: 59
        +5
        Quote: Karen
        but the prime minister promises us that they will return them to the last penny ... Here, they are preparing a law ...

        Do you still believe the premiere? Hm ...
        Quote: Karen
        The owners of the mansions will have to report on the source of these costs ...

        The law says nothing about "costs". The law says about "income", but these are different things.
        1. Karen
          Karen 26 October 2019 18: 06
          +3
          Quote: Alf

          Do you still believe the premiere? Hm ...

          I personally don’t really believe in the prime minister ... But yesterday Serge’s former nachora donated 5,9 million rubles to the budget. bucks, so as not to pester; the former customs officer refused from the Golden Palace hotel, etc.
          How the law will be applied - for the lack of evidence of income or for the lack of evidence of costs - it does not matter ...
      2. New Year day
        New Year day 26 October 2019 21: 11
        +3
        Quote: Karen
        Here we began to shake the former bureaucrats

        I don’t know how bureaucrats are shaking, but they come up with new taxes and fines.
        Recently Medvedev was concerned about fines for violating the speed limit by 10 km / h above the norm, again the tax on old cars was increased. And according to statistics, men after 50 years in the outback in the "classics" go. It turns out that the old Lada tax will be comparable to a foreign car.
        1. Karen
          Karen 26 October 2019 22: 31
          +2
          In all the encyclopedias of the board it is written: if the people grumble against high taxes, then it is possible to raise these same taxes ... until the people start to laugh and laugh all day, since they don’t have to do anything else with heavy taxes ... :)
          _____
          A joke, of course ... But for the authorities, this may be a common truth in the work ...
    5. at84432384
      at84432384 26 October 2019 14: 07
      +6
      Yes, there is no need to "shake" them. They shouldn't be like a cancerous tumor. Only surgically.
      1. Alf
        Alf 26 October 2019 18: 00
        +3
        Quote: at84432384
        Yes, there is no need to "shake" them. They shouldn't be like a cancerous tumor. Only surgically.

        Welcome, Lavrenty Pavlovich.
        1. Karen
          Karen 27 October 2019 07: 32
          +1
          Singapore has clearly demonstrated the effectiveness / sufficiency of the gallows ...
          1. Alf
            Alf 27 October 2019 08: 38
            +2
            Quote: Karen
            Singapore has clearly demonstrated the effectiveness / sufficiency of the gallows ...

            1. Karen
              Karen 27 October 2019 08: 47
              +2
              It’s impossible to just get off with a flogging ... Metastases ...
              1. Alf
                Alf 27 October 2019 08: 58
                +3
                Quote: Karen
                It’s impossible to just get off with a flogging ... Metastases ...

                So depending on what to flog. It is possible with a belt, but it is also possible 7,62x54 ... The second method gives almost 100% result.
                1. Karen
                  Karen 27 October 2019 09: 08
                  +1
                  All of Armenia hopes that we will flog the gallows ... Levon Ter-Petrosyan, Robert Kocharian and Serzh Sargsyan, in the main square of the capital ...
                  But, as I understand it, for this reason they slipped us Pashinyan to ward off popular anger from this trinity ...
                  1. Fan-fan
                    Fan-fan 27 October 2019 13: 44
                    -2
                    Well, you at least change your kings, and our irremovable, life.
                    1. Karen
                      Karen 27 October 2019 14: 52
                      +1
                      Quote: Fan-Fan
                      Well, you at least change your kings, and our irremovable, life.

                      Do not we succeed ... They replace us ...
                      I remember when the Movement began in 88 ... our 1st secretary came to the rally, went up to the microphone, and said: "... The people, those who brought you here, are doing this so that they have, like mine - 11 brand new imported suits in the gardirob ... Not for you, they try and sweat ... "
                      In 98 he was invited to power by our super minister (Pavel Grachev's expression) Vazgen Sargsyan ... As Karen Demirchyan himself said a little earlier, "In my life, the Armenian people gave me everything ... Now it is my turn to pay back my debts ..." But when Vazgen kicked "our" capitulator in the presidential chair Ter-Petrosyan, and they began to work in a duet for the state interests ... the Moscow fifth column did not like this ... Today marks the 20th anniversary of the pogrom in our parliament ... After that we have been ruled by kings for 19 years, the most real ... (censorship) ...
    6. Tatyana Pershina
      Tatyana Pershina 26 October 2019 14: 19
      +3
      What tax are you talking about? All about the same 13%? How many times can one repeat that business owners have nothing to do with this tax. They receive their "hard-earned" payments in the form of dividends, the tax on which is only 9%. This tax could be made progressive.
      1. Alf
        Alf 26 October 2019 18: 40
        +3
        Quote: Tatiana Pershina
        This tax could be made progressive.

        So it was originally made progressive, only in the other direction.
    7. nickname7
      nickname7 26 October 2019 14: 54
      +3
      ... or abandon the "market economy"

      The market is not necessarily abandoned, it is just that the market does not need to be shoved everywhere and in everything. The market in the field of housing and communal services, energy, water utilities, heating networks should be abandoned. But unfortunately this is not possible in the country of the victorious oligarchs.
      1. Victor N
        Victor N 27 October 2019 10: 59
        +1
        Not only possible, but necessary.
    8. Alf
      Alf 26 October 2019 17: 52
      +5
      Quote: Aviator_
      In a market economy, the main question is: who will pay for a brighter future?

      Either the oligarchs should be shaken (progressive tax), or the "market economy" should be abandoned. Tercium non datur.

      Call for the Aurora volley?
      1. We don’t give our own.
      2. In capitalism, the concept of "market economy" is inviolable.
      1. Aviator_
        Aviator_ 26 October 2019 18: 01
        +1
        1. We don’t give our own.
        2. In capitalism, the concept of "market economy" is inviolable.

        Well, 102 years ago, Russia had a capitalist (and even imperialist) system. The leading and directing party at that time ("Orthodoxy, autocracy, nationality") also considered private property sacred, and that's what happened. If it turns out differently, I will only be glad.
        1. Alf
          Alf 26 October 2019 19: 10
          +4
          Quote: Aviator_
          If it works out differently, I will only be glad.

          "Differently" is how? Sechin, Deripaska, Abramovich, Vekselberg will become unbearably ashamed and will they give up their billions and return the factories, newspapers, ships to the state?
          1. Aviator_
            Aviator_ 26 October 2019 20: 04
            0
            Well, what if? It is important that in this state, where they will hand over everything after a convincing request, they have no place. And similar "effective owners". And about their shame - let medicine do it.
            1. Alf
              Alf 26 October 2019 20: 21
              +1
              Quote: Aviator_
              Well, what if?

              Please do not be offended, but .. Tell me, how will this program go? Do you still think that they will just give away "acquired by overwork"? Maybe stop living in a fairy-tale world? Oh, Jupiter Magnus, people still believe in fairy tales so much ...
              There is no other way than to come to them with a rifle. No, it cannot be!
        2. Vadim237
          Vadim237 28 October 2019 00: 12
          -4
          Unfortunately, this change of capitalism to socialism with the help of blood disastrously affected people and the country as a whole from 1917 to 53rd year lost 60 million people from starvation of dispossession of repressions of wars, etc., the country was twice destroyed and plundered into civilian and destroyed during the Great Patriotic War 43 % of everything that was created during industrialization - in 91 there was a similar effect, only the transition back from socialism to capitalism. Stop jumping here and there.
      2. Fan-fan
        Fan-fan 27 October 2019 13: 48
        -1
        Call for the Aurora volley?

        Only it’s not necessary to hit the Winter Palace, now the Hermitage is there. Who is from Peter, give the coordinates of the target.
        1. Alf
          Alf 27 October 2019 20: 48
          0
          Quote: Fan-Fan
          Call for the Aurora volley?

          Only it’s not necessary to hit the Winter Palace, now the Hermitage is there.

          So I spoke about the Moscow River.
  3. Ramadan
    Ramadan 26 October 2019 09: 06
    -4
    And where does the Military Review not understand ...
    1. Mcar
      Mcar 26 October 2019 09: 12
      +17
      Quote: Ramazan
      And where does the Military Review not understand ...

      Will a frozen soldier fight a lot? Will a frozen rear cover produce a lot? Ah, yes, there will never be a war ...
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 26 October 2019 12: 42
        -8
        The military has individual heating systems, as well as heat guns and heaters for your rear units, etc. And yes, there will no longer be those wars that were before - between the superpowers, either local on foreign territory, or border using conventional weapons, or nuclear missiles.
        1. SOVIET UNION 2
          SOVIET UNION 2 26 October 2019 15: 35
          +3
          And how many superpowers do we have? Well, those who really produce a lot, consume and have weight in international organizations? China and the USA? Or a dozen of them? Or a hundred?
          1. Vadim237
            Vadim237 26 October 2019 19: 06
            0
            China, USA, India, Japan, Russia, you can still add Germany - each has its own special contribution to world technology, finance, energy, etc. - which other countries do not.
    2. Snarkxnumx
      Snarkxnumx 26 October 2019 09: 37
      +9
      And where does the Military Review not understand ...
      Let me remind you that the Russian army is part of the people
      1. Ramadan
        Ramadan 26 October 2019 09: 51
        -13
        In my opinion, "Voennoye Obozreniye" still implies more some kind of military theme.
        It would be clear if we discussed the heat supply in military units. And so it is possible here to discuss parking problems and show business and other civil problems - this is also part of the people ....
        1. Lannan Shi
          Lannan Shi 26 October 2019 10: 15
          +8
          Quote: Ramazan
          It would be clear if we discussed the heat supply in military units.

          Without the heat supply of Novosibirsk, and other cities, military units will not exist at all.
        2. at84432384
          at84432384 26 October 2019 14: 09
          +5
          And what, without an economy, can there be an army? A long-standing truth: what kind of economy is this and the army.
      2. tihonmarine
        tihonmarine 26 October 2019 10: 17
        +3
        Quote: Snark1876
        Let me remind you that the Russian army is part of the people

        Sorry, but who commands the army?
    3. Million
      Million 26 October 2019 09: 53
      +2
      All because of attendants (s).
      1. depressant
        depressant 26 October 2019 10: 26
        +7
        And you, Ramazan, imagine: a letter comes in to a soldier who is warmed up with excellent heat supply for a military unit, because he is cheerful and full of patriotic feelings, in which he says that all his relatives died. Left-right soldiers find out that they froze, clinging to the dead batteries, which now also have ice. And so he squeezes the machine in his hands, looks at him with crazy eyes and ...
        1. New Year day
          New Year day 26 October 2019 11: 57
          +4
          Quote: depressant
          looking at him with crazy eyes and ...

          ... starts firing the other way
  4. Livonetc
    Livonetc 26 October 2019 09: 07
    +10
    In Soviet times, he worked at the Central Exhibition Center of the Central Statistical Administration of the USSR
    This is a high-rise building on Semenovskaya in which more than a thousand people worked.
    All heating and hot water supply of the building was provided by a Finnish-made gas boiler house the size of a cargo sea container.
  5. carstorm 11
    carstorm 11 26 October 2019 09: 07
    0
    oh ... a lot, of course, on business; only cities with different climatic lengths and many many many things. there are many opponents of local networks. for Novosib they can and will be suitable if they managed to ruin the system so much and the rest is not a fact at all.
  6. DEDPIHTO
    DEDPIHTO 26 October 2019 09: 09
    +7
    And sho there with natural gas ,,. In each apartment ,,? Individual gas heating systems could solve the problem of rotten heat systems of thermal power plants. Or does the toad strangle too?
    1. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 26 October 2019 09: 13
      -6
      But will you install and maintain them at your own expense or will the state ask?
      1. DEDPIHTO
        DEDPIHTO 26 October 2019 09: 22
        +8
        Who installed, so gas workers serve and of course at the expense of the subscriber.
        1. tihonmarine
          tihonmarine 26 October 2019 10: 20
          0
          Quote: DEPHIHTO
          Who installed, so gas workers serve and of course at the expense of the subscriber.

          Well, you have found a way out. Since the beginning of 90x, such a system has been working with us. Capitalism.
      2. Mikhail Zarokov
        Mikhail Zarokov 26 October 2019 09: 42
        +8
        Well then you! How is it possible? The state has a soul for Africa.
        1. New Year day
          New Year day 26 October 2019 11: 58
          +6
          Quote: Mikhail Zarokov
          The state has a soul for Africa.

          Africa is our everything!
    2. Ross xnumx
      Ross xnumx 26 October 2019 09: 46
      +6
      Quote: DEPHIHTO
      And sho there with natural gas ,,. In each apartment ,,? Individual heating gas systems could solve the problem of rotten heat systems of thermal power plants.

      Only in this case there is a problem of tenants who work on gas pipelines destroying entire entrances.
      The problem of Siberian cities is that no one was engaged in (truly) their architecture. Large cities in Siberia are simply not needed - then many problems of housing and communal services will disappear.
      In addition, there are already pipes (cross-linked polyethylene):
      They are produced with diameters from 10 to 110 mm, working pressure from 8 to 25 bar. They are designed to operate in the temperature range from 0 to 95 ° C, do not react with acids and alkalis.
      Advantages:
      easy and quick to install;
      do not transmit noise from moving water to monolithic structures of the house;
      long term of operation - 50 years;
      universality;
      do not corrode;
      do not form a coating of calcium and iron salts on the inner surface;
      Due to the wide variety of fittings, you can easily crash into the water supply or heating system.
      Disadvantages:
      relatively high cost;
      expensive installation equipment;
      require installation of “P” or “G” shaped temperature compensators on long sections of pipelines;
      the flexibility of polyethylene requires auxiliary fixing elements.

      Only an integrated approach and the construction of urban clusters for 25 - 000 inhabitants.
      Have you ever wondered why the population has grown in Novosibirsk, as in other Siberian regional cities? Yes, just because there is no work in the province ... And there are two ways out: to learn to steal on the spot or to leave in search of work.
    3. Sling cutter
      Sling cutter 26 October 2019 10: 05
      +5
      DEDPICHTO (ALEX)
      Stoke felling, Colleague.
      1. DEDPIHTO
        DEDPIHTO 26 October 2019 10: 08
        +8
        I’ve been drowning for a long time, the taiga is next to my hut. yes I’m worried about urban ones, my children work in the city and there are heating systems from Tets (on coal), and the gas pipe to the city is not connected ... recourse hi
        1. Sling cutter
          Sling cutter 26 October 2019 10: 11
          +6
          DEDPICHTO (ALEX)
          Do not worry, the release of nanoscale bourgeois will be arranged soon.
          Wellcome back to the future. fellow
      2. Alf
        Alf 26 October 2019 19: 01
        +6
        Quote: Stroporez
        DEDPICHTO (ALEX)
        Stoke felling, Colleague.

        They will start massively drowning with logging, they will introduce a tax on it.
        1. Sling cutter
          Sling cutter 26 October 2019 19: 05
          +3
          Alf (Vasily. USSR) Allow you to greet a Colleague! hi drinks I haven’t seen you for a long time feel I am glad that there are still adequate staff !!!! yes
          1. Alf
            Alf 26 October 2019 19: 15
            +7
            Quote: Stroporez
            Alf (Vasily. USSR) Allow you to greet a Colleague! hi drinks I haven’t seen you for a long time feel I am glad that there are still adequate staff !!!! yes

            Mutually, hi
            He was engaged in repair, not until the laptop was.
            And as for the adequate ones, I’m always interested in one burning question: when will the Russians begin to see clearly and understand that this power is not a defender, but a robber. But no, even those whom the regime strikes every day from all sides, with manic confidence turning into stubbornness, are looking for the root of the problems in the United States, sanctions, exchange rates, inflation, but not in the presence of an anti-people system.
            1. Sling cutter
              Sling cutter 26 October 2019 19: 40
              +5
              Alf (Vasily. USSR) You raised a topic that is very difficult to answer. They are to blame for everything, Ukrainians, Nats, Georgians, Balts, the European Union, goblins, aliens, but not power .. Moreover, many of them keep Stalin’s nicknames, but believe in Putinism .. Paradox! We are either drowning or burning, everything is crumbling and falling, officials in their eyes say: you are nobody ...
              I think that it’s all a matter of servility, there is no serf who will not lick his master to pleasant fatigue, however, dreaming of becoming a master, but there is no worse master than a former serf. The multi-console is now replaced by reality .. Sadly, all of this.
              1. New Year day
                New Year day 26 October 2019 21: 15
                +3
                Quote: Stroporez
                . Sadly all this.

                the situation is changing, consensus is evaporating.
            2. Vadim237
              Vadim237 28 October 2019 11: 24
              -2
              You can not moan except this power, you have no other, and there is no one to replace. And even if you find someone in the economy there will be no radical improvements, the money yourself will not be drawn in the budget for all your Wishlist, otherwise you will halve all taxes, and double the salaries of state employees and pensions.
        2. Varyag71
          Varyag71 28 October 2019 13: 06
          -1
          Now cheers patriots zaminusut.
    4. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 26 October 2019 10: 18
      0
      Quote: DEPHIHTO
      Individual gas heating systems could solve the problem of rotten heat systems of thermal power plants.

      The solution is simple, buy an individual boiler.
      1. Sling cutter
        Sling cutter 26 October 2019 10: 25
        +5
        tihonmarine (Vlad)
        Buy a cauldron and salt cabbage in it lol Yes you, my friend, the first contender for the Shnobel Prize laughing
        1. tihonmarine
          tihonmarine 26 October 2019 10: 42
          +2
          Quote: Stroporez
          Buy a cauldron and salt cabbage in it

          Well, you know very well that I live in Estonia, so everything had to be installed there since the beginning of the 90s (they put them on the house, before they even put them on the apartment) Individual boilers for boilers, ion and earth heating. When the exorbitant rise in price for heat began from the TEH and boiler houses, we had to switch to an "individual", and now it is already everywhere. Life compels.
      2. DEDPIHTO
        DEDPIHTO 26 October 2019 10: 30
        +7
        Quote: tihonmarine
        Quote: DEPHIHTO
        Individual gas heating systems could solve the problem of rotten heat systems of thermal power plants.

        The solution is simple, buy an individual boiler.

        Not all cities of Russia are connected to the gas pipe, not to mention villages and villages. And where there is a pipe, the connection is inconceivably expensive (up to 300 thousand for a private house) and there are bureaucratic problems with the transfer of multi-unit housing from central heating to individual gas. Apparently I don’t want someone to shit themselves in the feeder, getting their gesheft on the old heat supply systems from the thermal power plants, and therefore they don’t want to give the heat supply to the gas workers.
        1. tihonmarine
          tihonmarine 26 October 2019 10: 53
          +2
          Quote: DEPHIHTO
          Not all cities of Russia are connected to the gas pipe, not to mention villages and villages.

          An individual boiler can be ordered for gas, oil, coal and wood, and even for two different types of fuel. You can perfectly in a country house put "ionic heating" (electricity and water are not needed) or earth heating (geothermal heating, here you need electricity for the pump). Guys ! why do you need the Internet. Dig, find and leave a capitalist like Moskalchenko. A good uncle will not come to you, capitalism is cruel, and even more so Russian.
          1. DEDPIHTO
            DEDPIHTO 26 October 2019 11: 03
            +8
            What the hell are these expenses for gas and fuel oil when firewood is free. There is nothing better and more comfortable than a wood-burning brick stove - such warmth emanates from it that can not be expressed in words. good And complete independence from all the other hoteliers! However, thanks for the advice. hi
            1. tihonmarine
              tihonmarine 26 October 2019 13: 33
              +5
              Quote: DEPHIHTO
              And complete independence from all the other hoteliers!

              Lucky people! The stove!
          2. New Year day
            New Year day 26 October 2019 12: 06
            +7
            Quote: tihonmarine
            You can order an individual boiler on gas, fuel oil, on coal and wood, and even on two different types of fuel.

            gasification at home (liquefied gas) costs about 350 thousand
            1. Sling cutter
              Sling cutter 26 October 2019 19: 09
              +4
              Silvestr (Sylvester) Sylvester! This is a meeting !!! drinks
              It’s very difficult, Kamrad, to explain to local idiots that you need to save 350 pensioners 8800 to the grave, but in this case you can only bury the papercloth in a plastic bag
              1. New Year day
                New Year day 26 October 2019 21: 06
                +4
                Quote: Stroporez
                Sylvester! This is a meeting !!!

                mutually hi Rad drinks
    5. Stammelford
      Stammelford 26 October 2019 12: 08
      +3
      And what to do with houses where gas is not provided? Most of the new humane people are like that. I myself live in this.
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 26 October 2019 12: 51
        -5
        A wood-fired boiler, coal - with a system of circulation pipelines and a coolant in the form of antifreeze.
        1. Sling cutter
          Sling cutter 26 October 2019 19: 17
          +3
          Vadim237 (Vadim) Are you really on strike today good Just do not need any antifreeze, there are Buleryan stoves, even marsh galoshes, time from bookmark and bookmark 12 hours, throw air ducts and enjoy good
          1. Vadim237
            Vadim237 26 October 2019 21: 35
            -1
            Antifreeze as a heat accumulator will be better, and if the room freezes, the farmer’s familiar cow farmer heats the pipes in the Volgograd region, although the boiler is gas-fired, but the anti-freeze circulation pump is powered by solar panels as well as 50% of the barn’s lighting.
        2. New Year day
          New Year day 26 October 2019 21: 17
          +4
          Quote: Vadim237
          Wood boiler

          I figured it out: I need cars for the winter 3. The price of firewood in the woods is high. In addition, the house is wooden. There is no gas. Liquefied must be set, expensive, but necessary. Firewood is not ice.
          1. Vadim237
            Vadim237 26 October 2019 21: 41
            -1
            You are allowed to collect deadwood - collect. For one, take an interest in the market and in general about more energy-intensive and efficient heating systems for houses with firewood.
          2. Sling cutter
            Sling cutter 26 October 2019 22: 15
            +2
            Quote: Silvestr
            Quote: Vadim237
            Wood boiler

            I figured it out: I need cars for the winter 3. The price of firewood in the woods is high. In addition, the house is wooden. There is no gas. Liquefied must be set, expensive, but necessary. Firewood is not ice.

            https://saem.su/kotly_kvr Вот тебе ссыль по корефански)
            1. New Year day
              New Year day 27 October 2019 00: 21
              +2
              Quote: Stroporez
              https://saem.su/kotly_kvr

              thank you
  7. Keyser soze
    Keyser soze 26 October 2019 09: 09
    +4
    Well, we have a heating system in Sofia, modern co-generations are being repaired and built, which generate electricity and sell. Toplofikatsionnaya enterprise is the property of the municipality.

    I have an 80 square apartment and I pay about 700 euros a year for heat and warm water.

    I wonder how much they pay in Novosibirsk?
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. carstorm 11
        carstorm 11 26 October 2019 09: 16
        -1
        50000 thousand a year?))) 4200 a month? digging dugouts? )))
    2. Ross xnumx
      Ross xnumx 26 October 2019 10: 02
      +7
      Quote: Keyser Soze
      Well, we have a heating system in Sofia, modern co-generations are being repaired and built,

      What is the average annual temperature in Sofia? Probably with a "+" sign. And in Novosibirsk - with a "-" sign. Kemerovskaya GRES produces electricity and supplies steam (heat carrier) to the heating network:
      The power plant consumes about 120 million cubic meters of water per year, and returns 110 million cubic meters back to the river (the difference goes to hot water supply for consumers and the power plant).

      In theory, all the hot water in the heating systems is part of the discharge, but the townspeople pay for this discharge at very high prices.
      All this talk about the cheapness of housing and communal tariffs arose after the collapse of the USSR and continues to this day. This is only one time to fall to the feeder. After that, you can drag away from her either a noose around the neck, or a shot in the head.
      1. Keyser soze
        Keyser soze 26 October 2019 10: 16
        +3
        What is your average annual temperature in Sofia?


        Hmm, I didn’t think about it. Today we have 25 :)
      2. Sling cutter
        Sling cutter 26 October 2019 10: 27
        +8
        ROSS 42 (42 region)
        Kemerovo State District Power Station is no longer the property of the Russian Federation
      3. Alf
        Alf 26 October 2019 19: 03
        +3
        Quote: ROSS 42
        either a shot in the head.

        It will be like a chicken clinging to a manger with his hands.
    3. Mcar
      Mcar 26 October 2019 12: 00
      +4
      Quote: Keyser Soze
      I have an 80 square apartment and I pay about 700 euros a year for heat and warm water.

      I wonder how much they pay in Novosibirsk?

      I wonder how many people in Sofia live on 150-200 euros per month? There are tens of millions in the Russian Federation.
      1. Keyser soze
        Keyser soze 26 October 2019 14: 39
        +4
        I wonder how many people in Sofia live on 150-200 euros per month?


        I don’t know for sure ... Sofia is not Bulgaria. There is money, but the prices are high. The average salary in the country is 650 euros. In Sofia there are more, but there are no exact statistics and I do not want to invent figures, but if unemployment in the country is 4,4%, in Sofia it is practically zero. Nowhere to find both workers and specialists. That is bad for pensioners - the average pension is 200 euros.

        Salaries are growing steadily with 10% per year. But this is not a problem - working poor people who lack a normal education for children and probably a million for medicine. Of the 7 millions, there are many.

        And it’s bad with capitalism - the former communists, our KGB men or their children are building it. For obvious reasons, they only manage to steal, but not to develop a business. They have not exploded yet because the power and the economy are working, contrary to circumstances.

        We must outweigh them by the lights, but unfortunately we live in the 21 century.

        And the good thing in the 21 century is that I can say everything, write and there will be nothing for me. 100 times wrote on Facebook that our government is made up of thieves and the mentally retarded. Yesterday I filmed a people’s protest against corruption and power - they gathered, shouted and blocked the most central and important intersection in Sofia - Orlov Bridge, in 24 hours. And the whole capital stopped. People walk on empty boulevards, ride great, mothers with strollers and the police are all guarded and do not touch anyone. It has no right to do this.

        But the discontent from neoliberalism is growing and sooner or later everything will fly to .... go and roll. But here, too, the specifics — the population is viciously at power and corruption, not at capitalism.
        But all the same, it’s my observations and thinking - I do not pretend to be universal truth, therefore, take my words critically. wink
        1. Mcar
          Mcar 26 October 2019 14: 53
          +7
          Quote: Keyser Soze
          Sofia is not Bulgaria.

          So Moscow is not Russia. A teacher in Moscow - 80 tr, a teacher in the outback - 20 tr Is this one country?

          Quote: Keyser Soze
          But the discontent from neoliberalism is growing and sooner or later everything will fly to .... go and roll. But here, too, the specifics — the population is viciously at power and corruption, not at capitalism.

          Unfortunately, this is a common problem for all countries - bitterness against the investigation, not against the cause.

          In whose hands the state, it protects the interests of those. If it is in the hands of the bourgeoisie, then it is stupid to be indignant at the power overthrow. But people do not understand this. In fact, and from what hangover should the bourgeoisie take care of the proletariat, which it plunders every day, taking away surplus value? This is the actual state of affairs - capitalism is good for ~ 10% and bad for ~ 90%. Sur, the paradox is that the lion's share of those whom capitalism kills are drowned for it. This is unfortunate.
          1. Keyser soze
            Keyser soze 26 October 2019 15: 01
            +2
            If in the hands of the bourgeoisie, it is stupid to be indignant over the power overthrow


            Yes, but in France, the bourgeoisie is in power. And we have communist flaws in power. Yesterday they grazed cows, then 1944 came and became the power. And then 1989 came and they remained the power - that the capitalists are to blame for us - they passed power in the distant 1944 year. Where is the bourgeoisie?
            1. Mcar
              Mcar 26 October 2019 15: 16
              +3
              Quote: Keyser Soze
              Where is the bourgeoisie?

              So everywhere. For example, in Bulgaria. )))

              “Communist scraps of power” is the bourgeoisie. It is necessary to look at the essence, at the root, and not at the form, the wrapper. They are not communist. A party card and sonorous speeches do not make a person a communist, just as the Ausweis and Nazi uniforms do not make Stirlitz a fascist.

              Does Bulgaria have human exploitation by man? Does Bulgaria have private ownership of the means of production (factories, land, stocks, large capital)? If so, normal capitalism in Bulgaria, no matter what they say. But in the capitalist formation there are only two classes - the proletariat and the bourgeoisie. The class of exploiters and the class of exploited. The class of the oppressors and the class of the oppressed.
              1. Keyser soze
                Keyser soze 26 October 2019 15: 36
                +2
                Communist scraps of power "are the bourgeoisie.


                He smiled - by definition in sociology, for the formation of whatever elite 150-200 years are needed. There is no bourgeoisie in Bulgaria :)

                Our underdone (45 years of socialism is not enough to create an elite) is exactly the party cards of socialism and their children. No need to rub in tales about "real" communists, while others are wrong.

                When he was a boy and did a big dirty trick, he told his father that he didn't want this. And my father answered me - "It doesn't matter what the son wanted, but what happened ...".

                It doesn't matter what your "real" communists wanted - we all see what happened. A mess for the people and a paradise for them and their descendants.
          2. Alf
            Alf 26 October 2019 19: 17
            +1
            Quote: McAr
            Sur, the paradox is that the lion's share of those whom capitalism kills are drowned for it.

            Well, all the same, cars have a full yard and smartphones for everyone ...
            1. Mcar
              Mcar 26 October 2019 19: 23
              +2
              Change your avatar. Disgrace.

              Quote: Alf
              Well, all the same, cars have a full yard and smartphones for everyone ...

              Firstly, not everyone has a smartphone.
              Secondly, this is additional clear evidence of the stratification of society into castes.
              1. Alf
                Alf 26 October 2019 19: 36
                0
                Quote: McAr
                Firstly, not everyone has a smartphone.

                As the advertisement says, If you do not have the latest iPhone-iPad, etc., then you are a sucker.
          3. Vadim237
            Vadim237 28 October 2019 00: 44
            -2
            Let's pay 45000 to each doctor and teacher, doctors in the country a little more than 700000, teachers from kindergartens to universities 2,5 million - we multiply this amount by 45000 by 12 months and we get - we get 1728 billion a year. Question from whom to take this amount each a year without raising taxes and levies on oil revenues - oh, and we don’t let anyone reduce the social sector from one trillion to three trillion every year, no one will cut the cost of the army by half, and cut the cost of the national economy again no one will give May decrees to turn off no one will pay from gold reserves - it is finite the money will end science reduce there is no where to stop servicing external debt - with export problems all officials will begin to reduce by 60% reduce in one year it doesn’t do who work instead of them AI will not be created in Russia yet; introduce a 30% tax for companies whose net profit for the year is more than a billion rubles, in principle, it is only possible as a market for yourself It’s unknown - but the people still need at least two pensions to increase taxes, reduce the cost of gasoline, and so on and so forth - and that's all the minus from the budget, including regional ones - the entire budget of the country is 20 trillion rubles, almost 14 trillion for pensioners and teachers doctors need 1,7 trillion for defense 3 trillion for education trillion for infrastructure 4 trillion for science trillion for housing and communal services trillion for culture 400 billion, and so on - the bottom line: there’s not enough money for all of us to fulfill all our wishes. If we had an annual GDP of under 200 trillion rubles with a budget of 40 trillion then enough for everyone - but alas, such a GDP as the budget in such economic conditions as it will not be soon, unless a miracle happens and oil to $ 130 - 150 a barrel does not fly up.
    4. Stammelford
      Stammelford 26 October 2019 12: 13
      +7
      In Arkhangelsk for 82 square meters. m. paid about 5000 rubles (67 €) per month only for heat.
      1. Karen
        Karen 26 October 2019 18: 35
        +3
        It turns out that your gas is cheaper than ours, exactly two times :)
        We have individual columns for heating, and in the cold months the gas charge for heat is twice as much as your numbers ...
    5. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 26 October 2019 13: 41
      +7
      Quote: Keyser Soze
      per year about 700 euros for heat and warm water.

      I wonder how much they pay in Novosibirsk?

      I don’t know how many in Novosibirsk. Tula region, 60 squares, we pay approximately 32-33 thousand rubles a year for heating. Hot water - 210 rubles per cubic meter. About 100 cubes per year, this is 20 thousand. That is, for a hut less than your 20 squares, we pay a similar amount, about 740 euros. The minimum salary is less than 200 euros. Outside the window + 9. Heat. laughing
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 26 October 2019 13: 52
        +6
        I’ll also add that the operators of the boiler house at 2 years ago received a salary of 215 euros, a friend worked there.
  8. Mcar
    Mcar 26 October 2019 09: 10
    +16
    Capitalism is contraindicated in Russia.

    And do not blame Norway with Canada. Load their economies with our problems, at least such as space, atom, army - they will go around the world. And under socialism, I will clarify - Stalinist socialism, we gave an average annual GDP growth of 20%. Today, as a great progress, our helmsmen and about 5% do not even dream. Why's that?..
    1. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 26 October 2019 09: 26
      -11
      Have you ever lost weight? at the start, kgs fly away just by the moment. and then less and less and less ... and then in general for a month 100 grams. no need to compare that time and that economy with modern ones.
      1. Mcar
        Mcar 26 October 2019 09: 57
        +12
        Quote: carstorm 11
        no need to compare that time and that economy with modern ones.

        Why not? Who forbids?

        And not economics need to be compared, but socio-economic formations. The key difference between capitalism and communism is the highest value. Under capitalism, money is the highest value, and under communism, man.

        If loot is closer to you, then do not be surprised or upset when you will be sold at the price of horse meat.
        1. carstorm 11
          carstorm 11 26 October 2019 10: 21
          -9
          I am much more expensive. . let's then compare well with the 16th century, for example, or with 18. times is not prohibited.
          1. Mcar
            Mcar 26 October 2019 10: 25
            +7
            Quote: carstorm 11
            I am much more expensive. . let's then compare well with the 16th century, for example, or with 18. times is not prohibited.

            Does it warm you cost more?

            Do not distinguish Thomas from Erema? What does the 16th century have to do with it? What do socio-economic formations know? If not, go to the library. If so, there are many more enjoyable ways to replenish energy than trolling.
            1. carstorm 11
              carstorm 11 26 October 2019 15: 55
              -4
              why should it warm? just a combination of investments in me and what I have on the way out gives me the opportunity to rate myself quite high.
          2. Sling cutter
            Sling cutter 26 October 2019 10: 48
            +8
            carstorm 11 (Dmitry)
            yes indeed, in the prices of components you cost more fellow
            1. Antares
              Antares 26 October 2019 13: 36
              +2
              Quote: Stroporez
              yes indeed, in the prices of components you cost more

              the human body is worth 167 dollars in terms of chemical. elements.
              1. Sling cutter
                Sling cutter 26 October 2019 13: 43
                +1
                Antares (Antares) I spoke about spare parts feel
                1. Antares
                  Antares 26 October 2019 13: 53
                  +5
                  Quote: Stroporez
                  Antares (Antares) I spoke about spare parts feel

                  yes for spare parts prices are approximately the same
                  Kidneys (2 pcs) - up to 50 thousand dollars
                  Liver - 200 thousand dollars or more
                  Pancreas - 70 thousand dollars
                  Bone marrow - 23 thousand dollars per gram (in the body of an adult man an average of 2,5 kg, i.e. 57,5 million can be earned for the whole - but this is an absolute utopia)
                  Light (2 pcs) - up to 200 thousand dollars
                  Cornea - 350 thousand
                  Gonads, male or female - up to 15 thousand dollars
                  If you are dead at the time of organ removal, the price drops about half.
                  According to the skeleton there is a lot of trouble to sell (and the price is different), in general, about 1000 dollars ..
                  So man
                  not a cheap resource
                  1. Sling cutter
                    Sling cutter 26 October 2019 14: 05
                    +2
                    Antares (Antares) A masterpiece! good Nice to talk with a knowledgeable person. drinks
                2. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 26 October 2019 14: 00
                  +5
                  Quote: Stroporez
                  I spoke about spare parts
                  carstorm 11
                  He sells alcohol, sort of. What kind of parts are there - the devil knows.
                  1. Sling cutter
                    Sling cutter 26 October 2019 14: 06
                    +3
                    Mordvin 3 (Vladimir) Mdyayaya .... If alcohol, then s / h rubbish yes
                    1. carstorm 11
                      carstorm 11 26 October 2019 16: 00
                      0
                      wrong here) I lead a healthy lifestyle. from my sores only heartburn sometimes happens) I like spicy)
            2. carstorm 11
              carstorm 11 26 October 2019 15: 58
              -2
              accessories really raise value) only I'm talking about something else. starting from the elementary demand for my knowledge in the field that I work and ending with those investments that you do in yourself. everything is elementary.
        2. tihonmarine
          tihonmarine 26 October 2019 10: 23
          +6
          Quote: McAr
          Under capitalism, money is the highest value, and under communism, man.

          Under capitalism, the highest value is PROFIT.
          1. Mcar
            Mcar 26 October 2019 10: 27
            +1
            Quote: tihonmarine
            Quote: McAr
            Under capitalism, money is the highest value, and under communism, man.

            Under capitalism, the highest value is PROFIT.

            Which is calculated ... yes really in thoroughbred puppies ?!

            The goal is profit. And value is money. Is this nuance clear?
            1. tihonmarine
              tihonmarine 26 October 2019 10: 56
              +2
              Quote: McAr
              Which is calculated ... yes really in thoroughbred puppies ?!

              Puppies Excuse me, are you not living in Russia? Then I will tell you In billions of dollars and euros.
              1. Mcar
                Mcar 26 October 2019 11: 29
                +4
                Quote: tihonmarine
                Quote: McAr
                Which is calculated ... yes really in thoroughbred puppies ?!

                Puppies Excuse me, are you not living in Russia? Then I will tell you In billions of dollars and euros.

                1. In Khabarovsk. Is it considered in Russia?

                2. "Take bribes with greyhound puppies" is from Gogol's "Inspector General".

                3. Dollars and euros are not money?

                Quote: McAr
                The goal is profit. And value is money. Is this nuance clear?
                1. tihonmarine
                  tihonmarine 26 October 2019 13: 39
                  +3
                  Quote: McAr
                  "Take bribes with greyhound puppies" is from Gogol's "Inspector General".

                  So they do not take bribes, but simply unscrupulously rob.
      2. Alf
        Alf 26 October 2019 19: 18
        +2
        Quote: carstorm 11
        at the start, kgs fly away just by the moment. and then less and less and less ... and then in general for a month 100 grams.

        And then nothing flies away, however, then the funeral march begins to play.
    2. Sling cutter
      Sling cutter 26 October 2019 10: 46
      +2
      McAr (Alexander)
      Colleague, all the patamushta stole everything, but that they did not steal it, they broke it. sad
  9. 2 Level Advisor
    2 Level Advisor 26 October 2019 09: 21
    +9
    Global heat supply systems were beneficial to the state machine of the USSR - the cost of producing Gcal is an order of magnitude lower, and given the fact that people get almost nothing for nothing, the heat gets is generally excellent.
    Transferring the networks to the capitalist in private ownership with a global tariff increase gives superprofits to the owner of the company, and as she said in offshore, she doesn’t even pay taxes and doesn’t try to maintain the networks, she stupidly pumps out the loot until the networks completely collapse ..
    If we talk about the population, the most profitable for it is a boiler house or an individual, it is noticeably, an order of magnitude, cheaper than giving money to a capitalist offshore, at its discretion, increasing the tariff.
    Given the existing realities, in the absence of the capitalist’s concern about what will happen in 30 years, the faster the population refuses centralized heating, the better for him!
    1. Esaul
      Esaul 26 October 2019 17: 51
      -5
      In the scoop, the komunyaki certainly did a lot of business, now at least 50 years have to disentangle ...
      1. Fan-fan
        Fan-fan 27 October 2019 14: 16
        -2
        They did a good job - they built a heat supply system, for example, in Novosibirsk, which is still working and, according to calculations, will hold out for another 30 years. Total 50 years after the disappearance of the communists, and you mean some 50 - year old "loosening", probably "plundering" wanted to write?
  10. Fedorov
    Fedorov 26 October 2019 09: 37
    +1
    What's the problem ? I implanted a double-circuit gas boiler in the kitchen in the apartment, like everything in our five-story building, and I'm not buzzing. I pay three times less. And in our area, all the stoker on gas closed, went bankrupt. And I wanted to spit on all heating systems with their trousers and prices. At the dacha, he bungled a stove-bed - two bookmarks a day and I run in the winter, I'm sorry in my underpants. Kamaz bought firewood for a salary, for the season with his head. I do not think that firewood in Russia is more expensive than in Ukraine., And salaries are an order of magnitude higher in Russia. hi
    1. Stas157
      Stas157 26 October 2019 10: 30
      +3
      Quote: Fedorov
      I implanted a double-circuit gas boiler in the kitchen in the apartment ... And I wanted to spit on all heating systems

      And connected to the batteries? Do you get your own batteries with a common house system and are not connected to central heating? I just never heard of this.
      1. Fedorov
        Fedorov 26 October 2019 11: 50
        +3
        The whole house refused heating services. The batteries were simply cut off and drowned out by connecting to their individual boiler.
        1. New Year day
          New Year day 26 October 2019 12: 08
          +8
          Quote: Fedorov
          The whole house refused heating services. The batteries were simply cut off and drowned out by connecting to their individual boiler.

          how do local authorities and heating systems look at it? After all, they really need your money
      2. New Year day
        New Year day 26 October 2019 12: 02
        +9
        Quote: Stas157
        And connected to the batteries?

        such a system exists in Ukraine. It was the same in the Crimea. People disconnected apartments from central heating. When they moved to Russia, the first thing they banned was too few payments to the heating system.
        1. Petrol cutter
          Petrol cutter 26 October 2019 16: 52
          +5
          I confirm. There is such a thing.
    2. 2 Level Advisor
      2 Level Advisor 27 October 2019 09: 03
      0
      the problem is that you will still pay for heating until you officially terminate the contract, do not terminate it, so you have rendered the services ... this is a practice ... real and in life .. if you just went bankrupt and anyone is possible .. .
  11. tihonmarine
    tihonmarine 26 October 2019 10: 00
    +6
    Why not take the necessary part of the money from the profits of the owner of SGK billionaire Melnichenko?
    All this was read in a previous article on VO. And in my opinion everyone understands who owns the heating system (do not forget this is private property). And of course, all the profits go to the capitalist Melnichenko, who lives on yachts. Naive people, he will not share the profit with you, he received the SGK from the new government, and the government protects this gentleman.
  12. igorlvov
    igorlvov 26 October 2019 10: 06
    +2
    my mother-in-law in the Crimea, in Armyansk refused to have general heating back in the 90s, everything was on an individual (boilers), in Sevastopol all new houses on boilers, of course, the northern regions have a different calico, maybe a different approach is needed, maybe for every house there is a mini boiler house and losses it will be less than a few kilometers from the house of the boiler ...
  13. makmak
    makmak 26 October 2019 10: 07
    +3
    Apparently someone, according to the scheme of the city’s development, was not allowed to build a boiler room for a new building, in the zone of the TPP.
    And where does the Military Review not understand ...

    + + +

    Opponents of local boiler houses claim that technologically this is a step back. Joint production of electricity and heat at large CHPs is more economical and environmentally friendly.

    there the heat after the turbines is "free" and if the heating networks are cut, it will have to be dumped into the sky. Reducing the overall efficiency, the environment and, indirectly, the increase in the cost of electricity. Well, fuel for boiler houses is not free. In the USSR, the systems were not built by fools. And boiler houses, where it is profitable, and heating networks and local sources.

    The transfer of networks to the capitalist in private ownership with a global tariff increase - gives superprofits to the owner of the company

    The tariffs are approved by the REC and taking into account the chronic non-payments of the population and the Criminal Code, we can’t accelerate here - this is a risky business. And you cannot turn off the consumer, like electricians, for debts - the neighbors will freeze, and they will put you in prison.

    They wrote about heat network technologies. In apartment heating a lot of their problems. This is an entire industry with its own technologies and problems, it may not be aircraft manufacturing or the fleet, but it is also enough. Read https://www.rostplo.ru who are interested.
  14. COJIDAT
    COJIDAT 26 October 2019 10: 09
    +3
    The very principle of transporting coolant through kilometer pipelines with a complex system of laying and warming is initially unprofitable. It is easier to supply gas through cold open pipes to local boiler heating systems.
  15. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 26 October 2019 10: 09
    -7
    It is necessary to raise prices for heat and hot water by 2 times and then the housing and communal services will be cost-effective and take a loan for major work to replace the networks and everything will be new.
    1. Svarog
      Svarog 26 October 2019 10: 19
      +4
      Quote: Zaurbek
      It is necessary to raise prices for heat and hot water by 2 times and then the housing and communal services will be cost-effective and take a loan for major work to replace the networks and everything will be new.

      Yes, which is already 2 times, 5 times and buy everything over the hill ..
      1. Zaurbek
        Zaurbek 26 October 2019 12: 25
        -2
        You don’t have to buy ... just raise
        1. armata_armata
          armata_armata 26 October 2019 21: 04
          +3
          You don’t have to buy ... just raise

          You would be more careful, dear friend, otherwise in Siberia they may answer with a referendum for separation from "effective" managers, from all over the territory. Play out
  16. Snarkxnumx
    Snarkxnumx 26 October 2019 10: 31
    +7
    Many articles about the transfer of heat networks to concession. What awaits us. The level of development of the 19th century. Roads, heat networks, schools and hospitals. Where are the patriots cheers? What is silent?
  17. Ros 56
    Ros 56 26 October 2019 10: 32
    +6
    Nationalize this business and money for repairs will be found. As well as all natural resources. I am not against the private sector, only guys create it yourself from scratch, like the same Demidov or Shustov, but to drag away from the people and the state and beat yourself with a heel in the chest, what good fellow I am, it's about nothing.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 26 October 2019 13: 03
      -8
      "Nationalize this business and there will be money for repairs" And the same guys will come there as the previous managers - replacing the sewn with soap.
  18. Erik
    Erik 26 October 2019 11: 11
    +3
    With what fright Soviet? This is all already Russian, on patriot-traction it will still serve 5-10 years!))))
  19. Klingon
    Klingon 26 October 2019 12: 12
    +4
    Quote: Svarog
    Quote: Million
    Hucksters rule Russia; In addition to buy and sell, they are no longer capable of anything

    They will finish off the Soviet legacy and pack their suitcases ..

    must be dispossessed before we had time to finish eating. pick yachts, jets and castles and send to a known region for logging)) or dig channels
  20. Klingon
    Klingon 26 October 2019 12: 18
    +3
    Quote: COJIDAT
    The very principle of transporting coolant through kilometer pipelines with a complex system of laying and warming is initially unprofitable. It is easier to supply gas through cold open pipes to local boiler heating systems.
    absolutely right! otherwise awesome energy loss occurs. Local boiler rooms and / or as an alternative to each column in the apartment - there was a machine. Or a pellet stove. In Germany, long ago
    Yes, and heating elements in apartments with temperature controllers, so that people themselves can turn the heating on and off when necessary and not when Uncle Vasya decides (in June) that the heating season has ended
  21. ghby
    ghby 26 October 2019 12: 20
    +3
    What's the problem? Calculate (establish) the profit received, and politely ask to invest it (or part, which will be fair) in the reconstruction of networks. The owner’s refusal to regard this proposal as reluctance to manage property - nationalize and leave it in state (municipal) ownership, or sell at auction with a prerequisite - compliance with the reconstruction plan. And then you took fashion, squeezing the Soviet legacy, and then beg the state to beg for money for reconstruction ...
  22. evgen1221
    evgen1221 26 October 2019 13: 37
    +1
    But the state has nothing to strategic sectors and spheres directly affecting the life of every citizen of the state in private hands. There is no and cannot be (the invisible hand of the market-haile likes, which will ruin everything like a pike by a fool. Nowhere is there such) And there is something like in Germany — we will freeze but save on heat. Or, as in Japan, everyone himself drowns his apartment like anyhow. Or together the whole country to move to the southern latitudes.
  23. parusnik
    parusnik 26 October 2019 15: 31
    +4
    [B]
    In a market economy, the main question is: who will pay for a brighter future? [
    /bapter...Everything should be profitable, education, medicine, etc. ... if it doesn’t bring it to the dump .. For example, it was somehow said, by one of the two who are from the casket, identical with faces ... A bright future, it is not for everyone ... Although, as one of the two casket said, we will all go to heaven .. laughing
  24. frizzy
    frizzy 26 October 2019 16: 21
    0
    Tomorrow in the morning I will go "potbelly stove" to order a neighbor-welder. And on Monday I will send it to Novosib. friend Anatoly Fr ...
  25. Petrol cutter
    Petrol cutter 26 October 2019 16: 49
    +2
    Verily I say muzchiny. Only * autonomy * is weight!
    It must have turned on. No need-extinguished warmed up. Pay-stupid .. On the counter! .. I burned, and I will pay.
    Now we have a difficult weather situation. It’s warm during the day, you can be okay at night.
  26. Esaul
    Esaul 26 October 2019 17: 47
    0
    Everything is very simple - individual gas heating in each building, and the central boiler rooms should go into oblivion. The fee is two times cheaper, no need to heat the street, lay long heating mains, etc.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 26 October 2019 19: 11
      -2
      It can go further, each village, city, according to its own supercritical mini-reactor on Torii - heat, electricity and water to each house "Rosatom is a national treasure"
    2. makmak
      makmak 28 October 2019 12: 43
      -1
      If a private house, then yes. And if it’s multi-unit, then the window has opened - and you have boiler exhausts from the lower floors. The neighbor left - the wall froze. Well, the entrance door will freeze - scrap in hand. Everything is not so simple, already checked.
      1. Esaul
        Esaul 29 October 2019 08: 18
        0
        In apartment buildings there should be one boiler per building, the so-called roof boiler, as is now done in new buildings.
  27. APASUS
    APASUS 26 October 2019 19: 46
    +2
    I was recently at a boiler room in my city and was horrified! There, it’s not that outdated electronics control the process, but electromechanics of the last century. Paper recorders, like in the 80s
    There is not enough investment there to clean it up. The question is more likely with the funds allocated for repairs and modernization over the past 25-30 years, where have you gone ???
    1. fif21
      fif21 26 October 2019 20: 53
      0
      Quote: APASUS
      The question is rather with the funds allocated for repair and modernization over the past 25-30 years, where have you gone ???

      Money can not be found. The problem is systemic, alternative heating options need to be sought, and they are. hi
      1. APASUS
        APASUS 26 October 2019 22: 37
        +1
        Quote: fif21
        Money can not be found.

        Why look for them? Go to any parking lot in front of Mary. Salaries at City Hall are not more than the national average, or even less, but here's the paradox, there is no Lada Granta in the parking lot .................. ........ wink
  28. serge siberian
    serge siberian 26 October 2019 20: 32
    +2
    The Soviet legacy is in Novosibirsk, a city with more than 1,5 million souls. The area is more than 40 square kilometers. But for all this economy there are only 5 thermal power plants, the sixth has not yet been completed. Networks are constantly being fed annually, 1 million square meters are being built in the city. Of course, there are boiler rooms and gas pipes, but the pipes are rotting stably. Nobody wants to invest money, but they can download it all.
    it’s a monopoly, like water utilities and electricity. Are we banned monopolies, or am I mistaken?
    The CHP plant sells the product of working off at frenzied prices, but complains that there is little money to pay. And repairing the TT is expensive and not profitable. Then give the authorities and don’t steam your turnip. "master". negative
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 26 October 2019 21: 48
      -1
      In the Russian conditions for water supply and heating, pipes made of stainless acid-resistant steel are generally needed, as well as all shut-off valves.
      1. makmak
        makmak 28 October 2019 12: 46
        0
        Enough normal water treatment of the coolant smile
        1. Vadim237
          Vadim237 29 October 2019 19: 40
          0
          Unfortunately, no.
    2. avia12005
      27 October 2019 07: 21
      0
      More than 500 sq kilometers !!!
  29. fif21
    fif21 26 October 2019 20: 48
    0
    Autonomous mini boiler houses on gas, and kilometers of rusty pipes are unnecessary. The cost is about 5 mil rubles, the payback is 3-5 years. And if there is an opportunity to drill a well under water, then in general it’s in chocolate. And if also polypropylene pipeshi
    1. armata_armata
      armata_armata 26 October 2019 20: 59
      -2
      Autonomous mini boiler houses on gas, and kilometers of rusty pipes are unnecessary. The cost is about 5 mil rubles, the payback is 3-5 years. And if there is an opportunity to drill a well under water, then in general it’s in chocolate. And if also polypropylene pipes

      And if also with the current maintenance, there will be fiery hell from Novosibirsk ...
  30. VladimS
    VladimS 27 October 2019 00: 54
    -4
    Waiting
    Quote: Svarog
    Quote: carstorm 11
    What does the Soviet legacy have to do with it?

    Despite the fact that this power cannot create anything, they all have one place through it, they only saw it ..

    Lying - how are you breathing !?
  31. 7,62x54
    7,62x54 27 October 2019 06: 16
    +2
    They came up with requisitions for the overhaul of buildings; now they will come up with overhauls of heating systems, sewers, a gas pipeline, and a water supply system. Tighten your belts, citizens, we set off for a brighter future.
  32. Molot1979
    Molot1979 27 October 2019 07: 53
    0
    Comrades, colleagues and gentlemen. A little tired already of these apocalypses, which have been predicted for more than a decade and which still will not come. I will not argue and refute for a long time. Just a personal observation. The authors of these horror stories - they, of course, in words completely and completely for the country and the people and only against the government. But now I am reading Lev Daviditch, who is Bronstein by birth. And imagine - well, exactly the same. Since socialism in the USSR is wrong, then the country "inevitably awaits":
    a) the failure of the five-year plan. He had already failed, but Stalin was lying that all the rules.
    b) the collapse of the entire infrastructure, because the Stalinist bureaucrats are stupid and unprofessional
    c) unemployment, because
    d) factories and factories will stop because see b
    d) the inevitable defeat in the war, because all at once
    f) and to prevent all this from happening, it is necessary to organize the right socialism with Comrade Trotsky at the head. And fried chickens flutter over the fields, and the rivers flow with milk and honey.

    And try to find 10 differences between the positions of Trotsky and the Trotskyists in their propaganda from modern left-right alarmists.
    1. Saul_Rhen
      Saul_Rhen 27 October 2019 13: 12
      -2
      + The main problem of the country now is a huge amount of jumping-and-aching useless bio-waste. Which is always "not given".
  33. certero
    certero 27 October 2019 12: 20
    0
    It's funny, but this article reminds me of articles that appeared at the end of perestroika and at the beginning of Russia. K. Exactly, there was only talk there, besides heating systems, about electricity, housing and communal services and others. The entire Soviet legacy was declared unsustainable. Almost 30 years have passed. And the Soviet legacy is still alive.
    Undoubtedly, the desire of the capitalists to transfer us all to the European way of life where in apartments + 18 it is considered warm, and the cost of utilities is much higher. understandably. Prtvbley more. Only they would not go nafig.
  34. il-z
    il-z 27 October 2019 13: 37
    +2
    The heat supply system in the country is really at risk, worked in this system from 2006 to 2015. The arithmetic is simple, for a rather long time (especially between 2000 and 2010), the government annually allowed Gazprom to raise the price of gas by 10-15%, and heat supply enterprises by 4-7%. As a result, heat supply companies currently have gas costs in the range of 70-80% (they can be considered Gazprom branches for gas resale), they were in the region of 40-45% under the Union, which means there was money for annual repairs and replacement of heating mains .
    Well, in our dying "monotown" there was a likelihood of dying of the sewage system, with the corresponding consequences, but it seems that according to the republican program, most of it was replaced from a concrete to a polyethylene pipeline.
  35. Vkd dvk
    Vkd dvk 27 October 2019 16: 22
    0
    To heat houses and the whole country with centralized heat-generating organizations is complete idiocy. In the conditions of infinitely cheap gas, electricity, metal, coal, labor, and everything else, of course, it was profitable to melt millions of tons of steel, make pipes from them (this had a beneficial effect on the country's GDP) and dig them in, after digging the streets, roads, asphalt and so on, which was also described positively in the newspapers. But when everything finds its REAL price, it turns out that this is insanity. It is not possible to regulate the heat supply to the whole area of ​​the city. so that everyone comes as much as necessary. In houses, standing higher on the relief, of course, it will be warmer than standing in the lowlands. Some open the windows in winter, others freeze. What is this if not a waste of energy, the cost of which has increased many times over? Pipes in the ground rust on both sides. Both from the inside and from the outside. We want to have heat, and therefore we could only pay for laying the feed pipe. But technical features make us pay for completely unnecessary return to us.
    REPAIR OF NETWORKS.
    How much foolishness, nonsense, inconvenience, sloppiness and bribery in these words. For years, excavated streets.
    Leaks and scalds, breakthroughs of boiling water, broken cars, scalded people, damaged walls of houses, sinking foundations. Finally, homeless people in heating mains, and any other living environment that spoils us all life and health.
    However, there are much more economical and proper ways of heating. These are house boiler houses. The gas pipe rusts only on the outside. No return needed. The cross section of the pipes with hot water and the cross section of the pipe with gas. How many millions tons of steel would not have to be mined, smelted, rolled and buried. And regulating heat is much easier. Each house has its own. There is nothing superfluous in the supply of heat. Digging the city, repairing and restoring your idiocy to working condition is not necessary.
    And it would be great to refuse heating the gas boiler house altogether. Even mini sizes. In each battery under the window is an electric heater. And a heat regulator. In the hall, in order to save money, you can do +15 .... 18 degrees, and in the nursery, protecting your child, +25 degrees. The electrical cable does NOT rust at all. And it can be rolled out of the coil for repair purposes, by tucking the end into an electric well, dragging it underground UNDERGROUNDING THE STREETS AT ALL !!!!!!!
    Has anyone considered how much cheaper and more reliable it is?
    1. 933454818
      933454818 27 October 2019 18: 36
      0
      As for the distribution of heat among individual consumers, you don’t know at all - it was perfectly calculated back in the 80s and everything was heated as it should. And electric heating is only an overspending of thermal energy.
    2. makmak
      makmak 28 October 2019 13: 07
      0
      Leaks and scalds, breakthroughs of boiling water, broken cars, scalded people, damaged walls of houses

      Well, you can add about the gas explosions in the houses ...
      These are house boiler houses

      There are also apartment, roof, and quarter, and district. Where it is profitable there and put.
      In each battery under the window is an electric heater.

      And to provide electric power for this Novosibirsk, how much does it take to build new thermal power plants, power lines and copper for cables?
      And burn gas at these CHPs with an efficiency of 33%. Even for Gazprom it’s cool!
      Has anyone considered how much cheaper and more reliable it is?

      Yes, and regularly, but not everywhere yet ... winked
  36. Vkd dvk
    Vkd dvk 27 October 2019 16: 36
    0
    Quote: certero
    Almost 30 years have passed. And the Soviet legacy is still alive.

    Unfortunately, I must say. The housing and communal services system is a trap from which there is NO exit. Only full and d and about t can hope that the order with the maintenance of houses will be established. Hundreds of OWNERS will never agree on how and who will repair thin roofs, dead heating mains. and smelly cellars. House parking lots. Here is the battlefield in the future. With the increase in the number of cars in urban residents, the intensity of hostility will only grow. As density increases, troubles and scandals will increase.

    Were in the Scandinavian countries (in all) in 1981. So ALREADY THEN they believed that living in the city center is not prestigious. a cottage in the country is the tsimus and the city dweller's dream. And this is provided that in the center of the big houses are not hundreds of property, but ONE property. From which you can always ask for the basement, and for the roof, and for the broken light bulb in the entrance.
  37. 933454818
    933454818 27 October 2019 18: 33
    +1
    In the late 90s, I had the "pleasure" of working as a foreman of a heating network section in a fairly large city. Once again I was convinced that only those who "lick the butt" of their bosses and blame all their shortcomings on anything can work in such organizations. Specialists in such organizations do not take root.
  38. Vkd dvk
    Vkd dvk 27 October 2019 19: 18
    0
    Quote: 933454818
    As for the distribution of heat among individual consumers, you don’t know at all - it was perfectly calculated back in the 80s and everything was heated as it should. And electric heating is only an overspending of thermal energy.

    Yes, you do not want the Nobel?
    Electricity transmission is a loss of not more than 3% in wires. Transition of energy of electricity to heat, in heating elements - 100% per kilowatt-hour - 860 calories. The efficiency of electric heating, yes, is lower than the production of heat by burning gas. This is a double conversion.
    Heat the apartment by burning gas in your room, bedroom, gas burner. Get maximum efficiency, but know that when you burn gas, you generate water and burn oxygen.

    1kg 3,6kg 2,9kg 1,64kg
    С3Н8 + 5О2 = 3СО2 + 4Н2О

    This is a propane burning formula. It is seen that 1 kg of gas gives the combustion of 3,6 kg of oxygen, releasing 2,9 kg of carbon dioxide and 1,64 kg of water. If you take into account the efficiency of this type of heating, taking into account ventilation, drainage and other things, it will be even worse.
    Tell us how, having a common riser, and even more so a main, to distribute heat to different consumers in accordance with their preferences.
    The poultry farm where I worked, switching to heating the workshops with gas heat generators instead of the Soviet one from the central boiler house, began to expend gas seven times less.
  39. Vkd dvk
    Vkd dvk 27 October 2019 19: 29
    0
    Quote: 933454818
    In the late 90s, I had the "pleasure" of working as a foreman of a heating network section in a fairly large city. Once again I was convinced that only those who "lick the butt" of their bosses and blame all their shortcomings on anything can work in such organizations. Specialists in such organizations do not take root.

    So why, when it is so simple, according to your statement, to regulate the heat supply to different houses, you could not work there? Why lick when it's easy to adjust?
  40. belov123
    belov123 27 October 2019 22: 01
    +2
    Oh, the eternal Soviet pipes.
    They have been working for 40-50 years, they still will not become worthless.
    There are no figures, no facts. Article of the Kalashnikov level.
    Even 10 years ago I read about "a series of man-made disasters" with him, but it won't even start.
  41. begemot20091
    begemot20091 27 October 2019 22: 13
    0
    Quote: carstorm 11
    What does the Soviet legacy have to do with it? conversation in general for another. Soviet heating systems had a service life of no more than 25 years. now technology gives 50. etc. etc.

    give on paper? Chubais already gave "Volga". it remains to say: "why do I need the Volga with its dams?
  42. oracul
    oracul 28 October 2019 06: 37
    0
    To be honest, there’s nothing to comment on. Why argue about the obvious. The state is now capitalistic, a single energy system, thanks to Chubais, is destroyed. Under the conditions of wild capitalism, heating networks, like many others, are occupied with elementary survival, since the state today is not particularly responsible for their condition. Cataclysms - yes, scheduled repairs - no, everything was lowered to places where there is no money. And all the moaning against the market state looks ridiculous enough. To begin with, we need to figure out what kind of state we have. This is some kind of mishmash - the primary accumulation of capital, and wild, which in the West for a long time, coupled with the residual manifestations of socialist thinking, remaining on the remnants of the socialist economy. Just one more example, again talk about privatization: give profitable enterprises to private owners, who will cut coupons, and those that need to be pulled out of one place are either thrown away or are looking for budget money to raise and privatize.
  43. Carib
    Carib 28 October 2019 06: 51
    0
    The transition from huge to small heat sources was immediately understood, as capitalism loomed.
    30 years lost. In our city, they pay 3 times less with gas boilers in the house. 2/3 of the tariff is a payment to heating networks. The city of Perm is also not the capital, with a lot of problems from which people leave.
  44. Victor Leningradets
    Victor Leningradets 28 October 2019 10: 13
    +2
    As a developer of heat supply schemes for many large cities (St. 500 thousand inhabitants), I have to make a few comments:
    1) A heat supply scheme is a product of an agreement between heat supply organizations (business) and municipalities (local authorities). For large cities, this agreement is approved by the Ministry of Energy. The developer of the scheme only draws up these agreements in the form of a document and coordinates it with all parties.
    2) The heat supply business provides for maximizing profits for its offshore, which is achieved by minimizing investments in dead sources and networks and violating contractual parameters agreed with the authorities. The main goal is to knock out the corresponding tariff.
    3) Our TPPs are morally obsolete and physically worn out, which leads to their uncompetitiveness in the electric power market. On the other hand, their speedy exclusion from schemes and programs for the development of the electric power industry is impossible for reasons of reliability and safety. Therefore, the maximum possible cost is transferred to heat. On the agenda is the issue of rehabilitation of the CHPP and large-scale reconstruction of those whom it is advisable to develop, but the private owner can not do this for economic reasons.
    4) The service life of heating networks is assigned for reasons of increasing depreciation. For the actual parameters of the coolant, distribution heat networks can well be made in polymer pipes with a guaranteed 50-year service life and ensuring an average annual loss of 5 - 7%. As well as the introduction of ITP will save up to 40% of thermal energy. Now another turnaround is expected from the concession of heat supply systems, but this program does not solve the problem as a result of economically unjustified tariffs.
    5) Individual heat supply of apartment buildings - this is a surrender associated with the transition to an economically unjustified and technically dangerous method of heat production. In general, in high-rise buildings there should be neither gas stoves, nor gas heating. According to the experience of operating roof boiler rooms, I can say that the vast majority of them have been in operation for 5 to 10 years, after which the house is connected to a centralized heat supply system.
    1. makmak
      makmak 28 October 2019 13: 17
      0
      Thanks, I agree.
  45. Sapsan136
    Sapsan136 28 October 2019 13: 18
    +2
    The Soviet Union has been gone for 30 years and if something falls apart, it is not the fault of the USSR, but the fault of Chubais, son-in-law of Yeltsin (Valery Okulov, Valentin Yumashev) and the like
  46. Vkd dvk
    Vkd dvk 28 October 2019 14: 09
    0
    Quote: makmak
    Leaks and scalds, breakthroughs of boiling water, broken cars, scalded people, damaged walls of houses

    Well, you can add about the gas explosions in the houses ...
    These are house boiler houses

    There are also apartment, roof, and quarter, and district. Where it is profitable there and put.
    In each battery under the window is an electric heater.

    And to provide electric power for this Novosibirsk, how much does it take to build new thermal power plants, power lines and copper for cables?
    And burn gas at these CHPs with an efficiency of 33%. Even for Gazprom it’s cool!
    Has anyone considered how much cheaper and more reliable it is?

    Yes, and regularly, but not everywhere yet ... winked

    Show at least a couple of examples of gas explosions in mini-boiler rooms. There are explosions in apartments, because there are .... there are everywhere, and mainly because of drunkenness and no search. There are many examples of just such accidents.

    Further. My dear man, you need to consider any problem in a complex, as far as knowledge and the amount of information allows.
    And, in any case, in comparison. Did you rate the water in the boiler room? What is the efficiency there? Not the same 33%?
    Conduct through two pipes (cost and durability ???) without loss? Can you compare cable losses and pipe losses? Do you mean the adjustment, how much extra heat is emitted into the atmosphere, which is practically impossible to level with a site where it is small? Digging a street, kilometers, is it free? Why are you writing outright stupidity? It was as if they were stuck at school until their 50s, and they were never on the street. And finally. Do you know how our sworn friends heat our houses abroad of our vast country? Well, at least in Sweden. Northern country, not California, after all.
    Assess the urban growth trend. Consider examples of leading countries. Not urbanization, five-story buildings. Here is a dead end. Mini-cities scattered in nature. And among nature. Appreciate the possibility of centralizing everything in such conditions. And the last thing.
    Green energy. While it interferes, and does not help energy in general. There are no cheap and reliable energy batteries. There is no thermonuclear energy yet. But everything changes, and it is necessary to prepare the COUNTRY (not your kitchen, this is a trifle) for a Prudent USE (NOT GENERATION !!!)

    I'm afraid to call out misfortune, but if a neighbor breaks the battery and for a couple of months you are left without .... Then remember what I was explaining to you here.
  47. EvilLion
    EvilLion 28 October 2019 15: 30
    +2
    The author confused the country.
  48. EvilLion
    EvilLion 28 October 2019 15: 36
    +1
    Of course, I wildly apologize, but where is capitalism? On the contrary, energy companies cannot receive any profit, because everything is fixed. tariffs, clearly lower than cost. Of course, such planned unprofitable enterprises cannot develop themselves.

    As for 100500 kilometers of pipes from the TPP, for foreigners it’s just wildness. There are doubts that it was at least once cost-effective, except that the savings are indirect, all houses should be made according to one plan, without any local boiler houses, simplification.
  49. ruivit1988
    ruivit1988 28 October 2019 17: 09
    0
    I worked as a Instrument Fitter in the heat networks of one of the districts of the city of Novosibirsk, and so we had one boss who claimed that there were no more gas debts. But then a new boss came in less than half a year as he claims that we have more than two hundred million rubles of debt. And this is like half the trouble, since they started to festival there like that. Half of the instrumentation has not yet been verified, the gas service was reduced in general by a madhouse there. I’m not talking about the fact that pump stations were not repaired, and there is no guarantee that they will withstand. All on to go on a warm winter from there will come cranes. I am already silent about the fact that these heat networks work on the bare enthusiasm of workers. It seems that a simple locksmith who works in the mud has more moral responsibility than a top manager.
  50. Private89
    Private89 29 October 2019 07: 23
    0
    Or maybe it's just a market economy and with it capitalism is not beneficial to the average person! The maximum profit will lead to the fact that the city will freeze, because it’s not profitable to see how to repair, and burning forests because it is not profitable to put out. Market and capitalism are profitable for the top and the hucksters from business.