Military Review

What do Russian helmets with Arabic inscriptions prove?

182
Around the sea, the swearing armor is worried,
and cavalry among them is steep as a hill.

Will fill all the hollows and the terrain will be leveled,
and the mountains are strung down like beads on a braid.
And the faces of the warriors are covered with swords,
spears are set. I will understand their letter.
He raised the lion's paws above the chain mail,
and the army hears his serpentine gaze.
Arab breed and banners, and horses,
and the armor, and the poison of arrows, which plague the enemies.
Arab poet Abu Nuwas and al-Mutanabbi, 915 — 965


Samples of material culture of past centuries. Not so long ago, an article was published on VO that talked about ... no matter what, it is important that it was written there that the Arabic inscriptions on the "helmet of Alexander Nevsky" prove something. But they do not prove anything, since the helmet of Alexander Nevsky as such does not exist. And that which does not exist cannot prove anything! But do we have helmets with Arabic inscriptions in museums? Well, let's say in the same Armory Kremlin chamber? There is! And what do they prove? But we’ll tell you about this now.

What do Russian helmets with Arabic inscriptions prove?

Alexander Nevsky in a helmet with a scavenger and a forehead sets the soldiers a combat mission ...


Not the oldest, but the most famous


To begin with, especially ancient helmets made of iron have been preserved to an insulting amount. And it’s clear why. It was worth stopping to look after such a helmet, as it was eaten by rust.


To the prince - princely, to the simple "warrior" - "warrior"!


Here is the helmet of Prince Yaroslav Vsevolodovich - just one of such rare artifacts. This is an old Russian helmet, which is usually dated to the second half of the XII or the first half of the XIII century. Today it is exhibited in the Armory of the Moscow Kremlin, and is rightfully considered one of the most outstanding monuments of the national arms business. So functional and truly beautiful.


Turkish helmet of the beginning of the XVII century. from the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York. Please note that it is very similar to Old Russian helmets or Russian helmets are similar to this helmet. Chicken and egg are a classic of the genre and a real find for folklorists. For us, it’s important that then a visor and a “hand-bearing arrow” were added to helmets of this type, so that it was possible to raise and lower the “headphones”, the head, and it turned out this way ... “Jericho hat” or “eastern bourguignot” "(Burgonet), as such helmets were called in the West

Famous Russian scientist A.N. Kirpichnikov, who created a typology of ancient Russian weapons and helmets, including, attributed it to type IV. And he emphasized that it was this helmet that became one of the first artifacts from which the study of Russian antiquities began.


Helmet of Yaroslav Vsevolodovich


History his findings have long ago in itself turned into a kind of legend of Russian archeology. Like, a certain resident of the village of Lykova A. Larionova, who was standing near the city of Yuryev-Podolsky, went in the autumn of 1808 of the year to the "pinch nuts" forest. She went, and she saw a helmet near the walnut bush in a bump, and chain mail beneath it. And the peasant brought her find to the village headman, because, as there was a holy image on his helmet, he transferred it to the bishop. And in the end, the helmet reached Alexander I himself, and he gave it to study at the Academy of Arts. They studied the helmet for a long time and decided that it was the helmet of the father of Alexander Nevsky, that it was most likely made of several metal plates (it wasn’t possible to find out for sure), and also that he had been reworked several times.

The helmet was decorated with a forehead plate with the image of the Archangel Michael, and there was an inscription in Cyrillic letters: "Fill the archangelistine of Guy Michael, help the servant of the Holy Theodore." A.N. Kirpichnikov believed that this helmet could be redone at least three times, and that before he fell into the hands of Prince Yaroslav, he had other owners. According to the historian K.A. Zhukov, the helmet had no cutouts for the eyes, and it was immediately made with a half mask. N.V. Chebotarev - the author of an interesting article “Helmet of Prince Yaroslav Vsevolodovich” indicates that the head-mounted icon covers part of the inscription, and this, in theory, could not be if all the details of the helmet were made sequentially.

Helmets from the cinema


As a child, young Alexander undoubtedly indulged in his father's "military reference" and tried on his helmet. This or some other, again, does not matter. It is important how “the helmet of Yaroslav Vsevolodovich” was typical for its time. It’s impossible to say that it was all such helmets that our soldiers had ... because of the scarcity of the material base. However, this is not impossible. It’s just that ordinary soldiers had it simpler: the prince on the helmet had a silver image of the archangel Michael, and the ordinary soldier most likely had the helmet itself.


This helmet seems to have nothing to do with the topic, but the "picture" is indicative of the fact that ... "cinema is cinema." The poor knight of 1242 of the year went to war in a helmet a la toad head of 1480 ... He was arranged so that the tournament spear didn’t fall into the viewing gap when hit. But this is in a tournament. In battle, it was enough for him to straighten up, and he would not see anything. Just some kind of suicide. Well, Eisenstein ... he obviously decided to laugh a little at the Germans!

By the way, it was with reliance on this helmet that two (by the way, why two and why he wears them at the same time) helmets were made for the shooting of the legendary film "Alexander Nevsky". The helmet in which he actually fights on the battlefield with a half mask and a straight sharp nose looks especially impressive and menacing. And then they began to print sets of postcards on which Prince Alexander was depicted in a “cinema helmet”. And since they were printed in thousand copies, it is not surprising that for a long time we all thought that the “cinema helmet” was modeled after it really existed, although this was actually not so.


The prince at Eisenstein’s battle is already wearing this helmet, although the previous one was very historic! This, by the way, is less ... Finds of just such face masks are unknown


Helmets of Ivan the Terrible and his son


Time passed, military modes changed, armor improved and helmets finally learned how to forge from one sheet. The fact that this is so is again convinced by the exhibits of the Armory and the Stockholm Armory, which holds the helmet of the Tsar ... Ivan the Terrible! For the first time, the helmet of Ivan the Terrible is mentioned in the records of the Royal Arsenal in Stockholm in the 1663 year, but how it got there, by what fate is unknown.


Helmet of Ivan the Terrible (Royal Arsenal, Stockholm)


Typologically, this is "shell", that is, a high conical helmet with a long spire. In the description of the helmet in the Royal Arsenal it is written: height - 380 mm, the greatest width 190 mm, weight of the helmet 1180 g. Also in the description it is reported that it was made around 1533 year, and came to Stockholm from Warsaw in 1655 year. This helmet is very similar to the exhibit from the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York.


Helmet from the Metropolitan Museum


But what is written about the helmet in the previous photo in the accompanying entry at the Metropolitan Museum of Art: “This extremely high conical helmet deserves attention as an example of what helmets were worn in Iran and Russia in the late XV and early XVI centuries. Similar helmets depicted in miniatures are often decorated with a small pennant attached to a spire. Culture: southern Russian or Iranian. Material: steel, iron, copper alloy, leather. Dimensions: height 46,7 cm; weight 1560 g.

It is interesting that the helmet of Ivan the Terrible has inscriptions in Arabic, but there is also a Russian inscription of the following content: “The helmet of Prince Ivan Vasilyevich, Grand Duke, son of Vasily Ivanovich, lord of all Russia, autocrat”. But Prince Ivan Vasilievich became king in January of the 1547 year, when he was 16 years old. This means that the helmet and this inscription were made before that, that is, for the still very young Grand Duke Ivan Vasilievich! And was he fit on the head of an adult king, and if he was not fit, then to whom did he give it to him, and who wore it afterwards? Obviously, the work is oriental, but ... redone by a Russian master for the needs of the young sovereign.


Helmet inscription from Stockholm


The helmet that belonged to Tsarevich Ivan Ivanovich, the son of Ivan the Terrible, looks like the helmet of his father, it is the same helmet, but it is not so richly decorated. But on it there is also a Russian-language inscription that says that it was made by the command of the prince and tsar Ivan Vasilyevich for his son John Ioannovich in the summer of 7065 (1557) on June 8 day.


Shishak helmet (Burgonet), approx. 1560-1570 gg. Made in Germany during the struggle with the Ottoman Empire. Probably intended for export to Hungary. Material: steel, gilding, copper, leather. Height: 27,9 cm; weight 1508,2 g (Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York)



And finally, the helmet of Alexander Nevsky from the Armory of the Moscow Kremlin. Drawing from the book "Antiquities of the Russian state, published by the Highest Command" (1853 g.). At that time, such high-quality drawings were commonplace in books on the cultural values ​​of the Russian Empire! Then there were no requirements to provide public domain photos. The figure shows the front and back of the helmet.


And also very similar to ours, a helmet from Stockholm, the Royal Arsenal. The description says that he is of Turkish work, made in 1475-1525. in the Istanbul arsenal (brand). Materials and technologies: steel, etching, carving, gilding. Height 230 mm, diameter about 210 mm


Finally, we got to the notorious helmet of Alexander Nevsky, which in fact is the helmet of Tsar Mikhail Fedorovich. At first, they say, he was Alexander Nevsky, and then he was remade for the first tsar-father from the Romanov clan. This has been argued for quite some time. But it is obvious that the helmet was made in the 17th century. And it has an Arabic inscription on it, which translates roughly as: "Rejoice the faithful with the promise of help from Allah and an imminent victory." But there is also an image of the Archangel Michael. That says only that this helmet is of eastern, most likely Turkish work, and was presented to Mikhail Fedorovich, who then ordered the Christian symbolism to be added to it. In the documents of the Armory Order there is a mention of the gunsmith Nikita Davydov, who was gilding just at that time a certain helmet and received payment in kind for this.


Shishak helmet Turkish work from Istanbul. OK. 1500-1525 This is one of the few helmets of this period that has retained all its details: a platypus, earphones, head-mounted helmet. The brass finish is typical of Mamluk and Ottoman helmets around 1500 Materials and technologies: steel, iron, gold, brass, gilding, engraving, metal carving. Height 39,4 cm; diameter 21,3 cm; weight 1797,4 g (Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York)



Another Mamluk helmet: approx. 1515-1520 Egyptian or Syriac. Engraved jewelry, which includes the texts of the Koran, refers to the last years of the Mamluk rule, that is, before the Ottomans conquered Egypt in the 1517 year. It is believed that the helmet was modified in Sudan during the Mahdi uprising in the 1880's and 1890's. Materials and technologies: steel, iron, copper, gold, engraving, gilding. Height 62,2 cm (with barminta); diameter 20,3 cm; weight 1468,5 g (Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York)



Arabic inscription on this helmet.


And all this is proved only by the fact that just at the beginning of the 16th century, as well as in the 17th century, the success of Turkish weapons and the skill of Turkish gunsmiths made it very popular in Europe, and Russia was no exception. Helmets, yushmans and bahtters, helmets and sabers, as well as shields and firearms, saddles and a harness made in Turkey were obtained as trophies and bought during periods of reconciliation.

To be continued ...
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  1. Vend
    Vend 24 October 2019 18: 13
    +11
    This still proves that there were trade and embassy ties.
    1. Aerodrome
      Aerodrome 24 October 2019 18: 56
      +21
      Quote: Wend
      What do Russian helmets with Arabic inscriptions prove?

      and proves that the Americans shamelessly pull everything that is bad in their "subway" ... just as the Arab countries have recently been plundered. booties.
      1. Nyrobsky
        Nyrobsky 24 October 2019 22: 03
        +10
        Quote: Aerodrome
        and proves that the Americans shamelessly pull everything that is bad in their "subway" ... just as the Arab countries have recently been plundered. booties.

        They and the Scythian gold with the consent of Yatsenyuk from Kuev stole during the extraction of the Maidan peremog on the pretext that it would be better preserved in the quiet harbor. This gold is estimated at around 20 billion dollars, which, in theory, more than covers those 5 billion dollars spent on the Maidan, which Vikusya Nuland admitted to, who for this gold fed the Maidan "Indians" with cookies, like the conquistadors in their time conquering America exchanged beads and scissors for Indian gold. Apparently Yatsenyuk for this and received the right to reside in the United States, like Gorby at one time for the "party gold" that flew from Sheremetyevo-2 to Ulster. One of the customs officers of Sheremetyevo-2 recalled that at that time he walked with his boots on boxes of gold bars loaded on a plane that was flying to Ireland. I think that in the United States and the United Kingdom today there are a lot of artifacts missing in Iraq and Syria, because they were also the subject of interest of American wallets close to the State Department and the Pentagon.
        1. Vladimir16
          Vladimir16 25 October 2019 10: 38
          +9
          The inscriptions on helmets and other weapons, as well as "Walking Beyond the Three Seas" by Afanasy Nikitin, written in two languages ​​mixed together, say only that in Russia they were fluent in two languages.

          And all the crap invented by "German historians" one of whom even Russian did not want to learn speaks only of a deliberate change in our history. The Romanovs paid for this "story" about their goals, one can only guess.
        2. Officer
          Officer 6 November 2019 00: 02
          +1
          A moment from V. Pikul's book "Boys with bows" involuntarily comes to mind, only in this case we take not a life raft, but an unknown museum with exhibits - armor from Europe, Asia, edged weapons from almost all over the world, all these are from different eras , and others, others, other exhibits (often unparalleled). Attention, the question is - whose museum is this?))))))))))
      2. svp67
        svp67 28 October 2019 19: 35
        0
        Quote: Aerodrome
        and proves that the Americans shamelessly pull everything that is bad in their "subway" ... just as the Arab countries have recently been plundered. booties.

        This is one of the peculiarities of Western empires, the "status" must be demanded visually.
    2. Terenin
      Terenin 24 October 2019 18: 57
      +5
      Quote: Wend
      This still proves that there were trade and embassy ties.

      hi
      Yes, trade in Ancient Russia from the moment of the founding of Old Russian statehood in the XNUMXth century until the Mongol invasion was of great importance. Foreign trade was especially distinguished; it was an important component of the economy of the Old Russian principalities.
      1. YakimovSS
        YakimovSS 25 October 2019 13: 45
        0
        The photographer overflowed the horizon. Remind me the date and place of shooting?
    3. YakimovSS
      YakimovSS 25 October 2019 13: 44
      +2
      There is a suspicion that at that time in general all the land was under the Tatar-Mongol yoke, from the Arctic Circle to India. Therefore, the circulation of weapons was quite an everyday matter, along with the circulation of troops or ambassadors.
    4. svp67
      svp67 28 October 2019 19: 34
      0
      Quote: Wend
      This still proves that there were trade and embassy ties.

      To the point, as well as the fact that at all times those in power are trying to stand out from the general mass, the entire army is in home-grown helmets and only "cream" in the Arab ... there is money, they could afford it, the status must be de-manned
  2. tlauicol
    tlauicol 24 October 2019 18: 24
    +2
    Interestingly, but on the head of Monomakh there are Basurm inscriptions?
    1. Zeev Zeev
      Zeev Zeev 24 October 2019 18: 47
      -8
      Hm. The Monomakh hat is actually the skullcap of the sister of Khan Uzbek.
      1. antivirus
        antivirus 24 October 2019 19: 09
        +4
        again, everything was gone ..
        when will you stop lowering the grandeur of ukrov?
        1. Zeev Zeev
          Zeev Zeev 24 October 2019 19: 22
          -9
          What does the ancient Ukrainians have to do with it? I'm about Moscow
          1. antivirus
            antivirus 24 October 2019 19: 23
            -2
            Ukrainians everywhere, sent the Horde against Moscow ..
            haha
            1. Zeev Zeev
              Zeev Zeev 24 October 2019 19: 27
              -1
              Horde against Moscow? Yes, even in the days of Khan Uzbek?
              1. antivirus
                antivirus 24 October 2019 19: 28
                -3
                I am Hochmach. about ukrov ,, not the real forces of Asia against the Slavs
                1. Vladimir16
                  Vladimir16 25 October 2019 11: 20
                  +4
                  Quote: antivirus
                  Horde against Moscow?

                  Quote: antivirus
                  I am Hochmach. about ukrov

                  Guys you thump what at a computer? laughing drinks
                  1. aakvit
                    aakvit 25 October 2019 13: 29
                    0
                    Sounds like YES! Maybe they will call us as well, Vladimir? drinks
      2. Astronaut
        Astronaut 24 October 2019 22: 05
        +2
        Well, this is one of four versions of the appearance of the Monomakh hat in Russia wink
        1. Zeev Zeev
          Zeev Zeev 25 October 2019 06: 27
          -6
          And the most reasonable
      3. napalm
        napalm 20 January 2020 09: 59
        0
        Yes it's a gift
    2. Terenin
      Terenin 24 October 2019 19: 06
      +5
      Quote: Tlauicol
      Interestingly, but on the head of Monomakh there are Basurm inscriptions?

      hi
      Nothing is said about Basurmanian inscriptions No. .
      On February 16, 1696, on the orders of Peter the Great, the layman Alexei Mikhailovich Tatishchev and the solicitor Leonty Bogdanovich Plokhov made an inventory of the treasury of the late Ivan V Alekseevich. The document mentioned the following subject:
      “The king’s hat is golden, scanned by Monomakhov, on it there is a smooth golden cross, on it there are four grains of Gurmitsky on its ends and under it, and there are stones in it in golden nests: above an apple, a yellow yachting, a yachting azure, barked, between them there are three Gurmytsky grains ; there are four emeralds on it, two bastards, two yachon barks, in golden nests, twenty-five gurmitsky grains, on golden backs; near sables: lined with satin worm: wooden vagina, pasted over with grass velvet, bookmarks and hooks silver [51] [52].


      Ah, here is the current photo. 2013 year
  3. Engineer
    Engineer 24 October 2019 18: 56
    +4
    Good article.
    Question to the author. Is there any information about comforters for Russian medieval helmets?
    Wendel helmets have traces of leather comforter.
    Europeans wore quilted caps under bacinets and chapel-de-ferry
    What did we have?
    1. Hantengri
      Hantengri 24 October 2019 23: 20
      +4
      Quote: Engineer
      Is there any information about comforters for Russian medieval helmets?

      There was definitely a "parachute".
      A copy from the hiding place of the Church of the Tithes is compared with a variety of shallow helmets without a scavenger. Inside the helmet is a charred mass, among which leather and fabric (probably from the lining) are distinguished. The find belonged to some representative of the Kiev nobility, who sought refuge in a hiding place during the assault on Kiev by the Mongols.
      (A. N. Kirpichnikov "Russian helmets of the X-XIII centuries)
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 25 October 2019 10: 09
        +1
        Thank you for the information
    2. Ryazan87
      Ryazan87 25 October 2019 14: 34
      +3
      Plus or minus is the same. True, a few copies have been preserved.

      Here is a good article:
      https://cyberleninka.ru/article/v/russkie-shlemy-xvi-veka
      True, here we are already talking about the 16th century, but wearing a helmet without a balaclava is a strange thing, to put it mildly.
  4. Aliken
    Aliken 24 October 2019 18: 56
    -5
    The helmet for princes and kings was of great importance, almost sacred, and inscriptions in a strange strange language are simply unacceptable. Conclusion, they knew that they were ayahs and had nothing against it.
    1. Usher
      Usher 24 October 2019 20: 05
      +1
      Sacral? And you can argue to your words, otherwise you can’t prove it.
      1. haron
        haron 25 October 2019 13: 48
        +2
        Quote: Usher
        And you can argue to your words, otherwise you can’t prove it.

        The concept of "sacred" refers to religion. With the same meaning, slogans, phrases from the Bible or other "sacred" texts were written on coats of arms, swords, and other material symbols of status, power and strength. In essence, this is concise information about the purpose and meaning of using this thing.
        Accordingly, does a bible phrase on a sword, helmet, shield, or coat of arms require confirmation of sacredness?
        Now we change the word "bible" to "Koran", Talmud, Ayurveda .... shall we lose sacredness or not?

        The presence of the Kasimov Khanate near Moscow, where Christianization began around 1570, starting with the rise and reign of Bekbulat. The presence of close ties with Kazan, Astrakhan and other Muslim centers. The presence of a large number of Muslims among Moscow citizens. It says that the Koran and the Arabic were not only familiar to the rulers of Moscow, but they were also used as a lever of influence.
        In this case, the evidence for the sacredness of these texts for the kings is quite obvious.
      2. Aliken
        Aliken 25 October 2019 15: 58
        -1
        Don't you even know that? Sadness.
        1. Usher
          Usher 25 October 2019 16: 25
          +1
          I'm not talking about knowledge, so where are your arguments, arguments?
          1. haron
            haron 25 October 2019 20: 06
            +3
            Quote: Usher
            Sacral? And you can argue to your words, otherwise you can’t prove it.

            Quote: Usher
            I'm not talking about knowledge, so where are your arguments, arguments?

            If I got into your "argument" earlier, and took the opposite side from you (due to the lack of specifics in the questions and requirements), then let me note that to prove the sacredness of a phrase from the Koran is the same as to demand proof that the Koran is religious book.
            What other meaning could the phrase from the Koran have for the king ?! Only religious. And religious is equivalent to meaning - sacred.
            Quote: Aliken
            The helmet for princes and kings was of great importance, almost sacred, and inscriptions in a strange strange language are simply unacceptable.
            In this phrase, a possible mistake is "almost sacred". Almost believes in God - can this be?

            Perhaps it was a gift to the king from his Muslim subjects, or neighbors. Perhaps Ivan has never dressed him once. And maybe he dressed if he wanted to show his Muslim subjects that their god was with him as well as the Christian god. That all the gods of his subjects are with him. East is a delicate matter.
            1. Vasyan1971
              Vasyan1971 25 October 2019 22: 29
              0
              Quote: haron
              Almost believes in God - can this be?

              In recent times, it’s very complete. In those days - very, very doubtful.
            2. Aliken
              Aliken 26 October 2019 20: 36
              0
              That's right, this is exactly the case.
          2. Aliken
            Aliken 26 October 2019 20: 33
            0
            With me. Here you are not an educational program. Educate yourself.
  5. Butchcassidy
    Butchcassidy 24 October 2019 19: 16
    +2
    The article is informative, but the title is strange. As if asked what the presence of the S-300 in Iran indicates. The fact that military-technical cooperation was not invented yesterday)))
  6. Korsar4
    Korsar4 24 October 2019 19: 16
    +3
    Interesting. But could the Orthodox sovereigns leave an inscription about the support of the faithful by Allah?
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      Edward Vashchenko 24 October 2019 20: 25
      +7
      They could, because these "drawings" meant nothing to them: just decorations.
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 24 October 2019 20: 40
        +4
        They could not think about the meaning of the inscription.
        In those days, Vera’s question was more than serious.

        Although your version probably has a right to exist.
        1. Dart2027
          Dart2027 24 October 2019 23: 05
          +5
          Quote: Korsar4
          They could not think about the meaning of the inscription.

          If at all they knew that it was an inscription, but did not consider it simply a pattern.
          1. betta
            betta 25 October 2019 14: 36
            +3
            It seems to be reasoning correctly, it just turns out that the kings were not literate. They did not know what the Arabic letter looked like. Well, it turns out senseless, just put on a beautiful hat, not interested in what is written on it.
            1. Dart2027
              Dart2027 25 October 2019 18: 59
              0
              Quote: betta
              only it turns out that the kings were not literate. Did not know what Arabic letter looks like

              And you personally can immediately distinguish their letter from just a pattern?
              1. Vasyan1971
                Vasyan1971 25 October 2019 22: 34
                0
                Quote: Dart2027
                And you personally can immediately distinguish their letter from just a pattern?

                Personally, hardly, but there were also language specialists at that time. The situation is about the same as the "Russian" language in the Hollywood "masterpieces": whoever does not boom, boom, who does not care, who speaks the language - laughs and points a finger.
                1. Dart2027
                  Dart2027 26 October 2019 06: 26
                  0
                  Quote: Vasyan1971
                  but there were language experts at that time

                  Probably there were, just not the fact that someone had given them to study the princely slime.
                  1. Vasyan1971
                    Vasyan1971 26 October 2019 09: 53
                    0
                    Quote: Dart2027
                    Probably there were, just not the fact that someone had given them to study the princely slime.

                    Of course. After all, the "specialists" are for sure - portomoys, lumberjacks and other servants. And why do all different princes, boyars, and different clerks need education?
                    Besides, "sludge" - it is "sludge" in Africa too, why study it? laughing
                    (I understand that the finger from "e" to "a" missed, it just turned out funny ...)
                    1. Dart2027
                      Dart2027 26 October 2019 13: 18
                      0
                      Quote: Vasyan1971
                      And why all sorts of princes, boyars, and different clerks education?

                      The princes and boyars have nothing to do but learn all the languages, how many there are in the world.
                      1. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 26 October 2019 16: 08
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        The princes and boyars have nothing to do but learn all the languages, how many there are in the world.

                        Do not juggle. Where is it written about "everything in the world"?
                        Knowledge of foreign languages ​​is a sign of an educated person. And then and now. Yes, though, remember the notorious "Voyage across the Three Seas". https://mysliwiec.livejournal.com/4515.html
                        Some merchant knew, but there wasn’t a seasoned trained nobleman?
                      2. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 26 October 2019 17: 08
                        0
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Knowledge of foreign languages ​​is a sign of an educated person. And then and now.

                        The question is which one. The prince was more useful than some language of neighbors, Polovtsy, for example, or Germans.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Some merchant knew

                        If a merchant trades with some foreigners and often meets with them personally, then this is not surprising. Prince why is this?
                      3. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 26 October 2019 18: 53
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        The prince was more useful than some language of neighbors, Polovtsy, for example, or Germans.

                        How do you know? Moreover, what exactly does the prince have to do with it? A fairly competent person from his environment.
                        Quote: Lannan Shi
                        It's like the word @ opa embroidered with gold on a hat. In spanish.

                        Return to 18 yesterday: 59, refresh your memory.
                      4. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 26 October 2019 22: 56
                        0
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        How do you know? Moreover, what exactly does the prince have to do with it?

                        But what do you think that the prince's helmet was given into the hands of anyone who wished? "Look at it"?
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Return to 18 yesterday: 59, refresh your memory.
                        Are you talking about it?
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        And you personally can immediately distinguish their letter from just a pattern?
                        Well, how can you? Can you translate from Chinese or Japanese?
                      5. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 26 October 2019 23: 37
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        But what do you think that the prince's helmet was given into the hands of anyone who wished? "Look at it"?

                        In order to read the "word @ opa" embroidered in gold on Shoigu's cap, it is enough to know the language and be close. This "hat of Jericho" did not lie in a chest with seven locks, but was worn on its own head.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Well, how can you? Can you translate from Chinese or Japanese?

                        Well, the light didn’t converge on me like a wedge. The example of A. Nikitin suggests that people familiar with Arabic were represented quite widely.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        That is, the interpreters of course were
                        yet again.
                        Well, how can Glavboss, even if he is illiterate, do without a tolmak? One glance is enough.
                      6. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 27 October 2019 06: 21
                        0
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        In order to read the "word @ opa" embroidered in gold on Shoigu's cap, it is enough to know the language and be close.

                        If it will stand out clearly against the background of the fabric and if it will be shown on TV in close-up.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        The example of A. Nikitin suggests that people familiar with Arabic were represented quite widely.

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        And what do you think that the princely helmet was given into the hands of anyone who wants it?

                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Well, how can Glavboss, even if he is illiterate, do without a tolmak?

                        And why did the Arab ambassadors often come to Moscow and the prince was in full armor?
                      7. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 27 October 2019 10: 52
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        If it will stand out clearly against the background of the fabric and if it will be shown on TV in close-up.

                        "Shoigu's cap" is an example tied to the current reality. You must understand this.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        And why did the Arab ambassadors often come to Moscow and the prince was in full armor?

                        You are too categorical. Often, not often, one glance is enough. And I repeat: it is not necessary to have an "Arab ambassador", it is enough to have ONE person who speaks the language. Please note: SPEAKER OF THE LANGUAGE! Who said that it should be exactly "Arab"? It could be anyone. And not necessarily, by the way, your own.
                      8. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 27 October 2019 12: 10
                        0
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        example tied to current reality

                        The current one is really very different from the realities of that era. What I have been saying for a long time.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        And I repeat: it is not necessary to have an "Arab ambassador", it is enough to have ONE person who speaks the language.

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        But what do you think that the prince's helmet was given into the hands of anyone who wished? "Look at it"?
                      9. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 27 October 2019 13: 31
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        The current one is really very different from the realities of that era.

                        Well, it's stupid to argue with that. But the basic principle of "saw, recognized, shared knowledge" is not affected.
                        About "anyone who wants to" and "give it a look" - your words. Can you 100% guarantee that no one ever could not "take and see", but see and identify?
                      10. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 27 October 2019 14: 05
                        0
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        But the basic principle of "saw, recognized, shared knowledge" is not affected.

                        Nowadays, anyone can see at least Shoigu, even Trump on a TV or computer screen and see in detail. Then there was no television and photographs.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        You can 100% guarantee that no one ever could not "take and see", but see

                        The prince’s weapons, on which his life may depend, will not be given to anyone. And to see how the prince rides in a helmet on his head at the head of the army - this is not the same as watching on TV.
                      11. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 27 October 2019 14: 41
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        The prince’s weapon, on which his life may depend, will not be given to anyone

                        Money for the fish again! Who, besides you, is talking about "just anyone"?
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Then there was no television and photographs.

                        How did it stop rumors and rumors? The pace of distribution was different, and only.
                      12. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 27 October 2019 15: 49
                        0
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Who, besides you, is talking about "just anyone"?
                        So you say so. A certain circle of people had access to the weapon of the prince, to whom neither merchants nor interpreters were clearly related.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        How did it stop rumors and rumors?

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Nowadays, anyone can see at least Shoigu, even Trump on a TV or computer screen and see in detail.

                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        This is an outdoor area. I have the right. Want backstage - communicate through a personal. Or say that you have never, never at the VO intervened in the conversation, expressing your opinion?

                        If a person intervenes in a discussion, then he has an idea of ​​how it started.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Money for the fish again! And again, what language was “international” at the time? Maybe the person you quoted meant: "common enough"?
                        Common where? In Russia? We are talking about her.
                      13. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 27 October 2019 16: 48
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        So you say so.

                        Where?
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        A certain circle of people had access to the weapon of the prince, to whom neither merchants nor interpreters were clearly related.

                        About access for merchants, where did I say? It is not necessary to nod at the example of A. Nikitin that I cited. This is an example of the prevalence of Arabic writing, and therefore of the language, among the middle class, at least.
                        And if, say, to involve A.S. Pushkin with his tsar Saltan: "The cannons are firing from the shore, they tell the ship to moor.", Then you must be aware of the plot about inviting the passing traders to the face of Himself, in order to satisfy the information hunger and listen all sorts of tales. It is clear that a fairy tale, but an archetypal case. Why not? It is clear that for such a case BigBoss is unlikely to put on ceremonial armor, but what does not happen in life!
                        Tolmach interpreter strife. There are ordinary people, there are those who enter the higher spheres.
                        Speaking of interpreters:
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        That is, the interpreters of course were

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        If a person intervenes in a discussion, then he has an idea of ​​how it started.

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Quote: Korsar4
                        They could not think about the meaning of the inscription.

                        If at all they knew that it was an inscription, but did not consider it simply a pattern.

                        I must upset you. I know.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Common where? In Russia? We are talking about her.

                        That is, do you think that Russia was such a damned outback, despite the fact that even a middle-aged merchant knew Arabic?
                        Enjoy: https://ingvarruricson.mirtesen.ru/blog/43598222204/Russkiy-Islam.-1.-Otkuda-na-Rusi-est-poshyol-Arabskiy-yazyik?nr=1&utm_referrer=mirtesen.ru
                        Therefore your
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        If at all they knew that it was an inscription, but did not consider it simply a pattern.

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        The princes and boyars have nothing to do but learn all the languages, how many there are in the world.

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Prince why is this?

                        absolutely bankrupt.
                      14. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 27 October 2019 18: 24
                        +1
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        This is an example of the prevalence of Arabic script and, consequently, the language, among the middle class, at least
                        Among those who trade directly with the Arabs, because the rest of it is simply unnecessary.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        It is clear that for such a case, BigBoss is unlikely to put on ceremonial armor, but that only in life does not happen!
                        No one in his right mind will put on 20 kg of iron without necessity.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Tolmach interpreter strife. There are ordinary people, there are those who enter the higher spheres.
                        AND? What did they have to do with weapons?
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        https://ingvarruricson.mirtesen.ru/blog/43598222204/Russkiy-Islam.-1.-Otkuda-na-Rusi-est-poshyol-Arabskiy-yazyik?nr=1&utm_referrer=mirtesen.ru

                        Fomenko and Nosovsky? Himself not funny?
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        That is, you think that Russia was a kind of bastard outback
                        Is knowledge of the Arabic language an indispensable sign of culture? Original.
                      15. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 27 October 2019 19: 36
                        0
                        Fomenko with Nosovsky can go through the woods.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Is knowledge of the Arabic language an indispensable sign of culture? Original.

                        Your interpretation of my words is original. Knowledge of any foreign language, like writing, is a sign of culture. If you like the word "indispensable", then you can use it, I do not mind.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Tolmach interpreter strife. There are ordinary people, there are those who enter the higher spheres.
                        AND? What did they have to do with weapons?

                        Only in terms of seeing, identifying precisely as text, and not a meaningless pattern, is what you hope for.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        If at all they knew that it was an inscription, but did not consider it simply a pattern.

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        No one in his right mind will put on 20 kg of iron without necessity.

                        Judge not lest ye be judged. Your categoricalness once again struck me to the core!
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Among those who trade directly with the Arabs, because the rest of it is simply unnecessary.

                        You were too lazy to read the source cited by me. Apparently got to here, and then not to the end:
                        This reference, as well as the previous one, is taken from the book “The Secret of Russian History” by A. Fomenko and G. Nosovsky from the series “History: Fiction or Science” (p. 93 and p. 43). To avoid scornful chuckles from my opponents, I will make a reservation right away - I am not a supporter of the New Chronology, as a concept of historical dating, although I do not consider myself to be its opponents. Until I decided on my attitude to this bold hypothesis (sometimes it seems too bold), I considered it possible to use the huge body of controversial and difficultly interpreted historical facts that its authors collected, but not relying on their conclusions. To this end, within the framework of our topic, I allow myself to quote fragments of the work mentioned above, accompanying it with my comments, enclosed in operational brackets of I.R. - RI, inside a paragraph framed by a forward / and backward \ slash. So....

                        Be patient, there is a lot of buckoff, but it's worth it to get to the end.

                      16. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 28 October 2019 19: 27
                        0
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Knowledge of any foreign language, as well as writing, is a sign of culture.
                        That's just when they learn those languages ​​with representatives of which you have to constantly deal with. Arabs in Russia were not very many.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Only in terms of seeing, identifying exactly how the text
                        We return to what we have already talked about - the failure and what he identifies there by looking briefly and from a great distance.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Judge not lest ye be judged. Your categoricalness once again struck me to the core!
                        That is, you seriously believe that princes and boyars everywhere lugged in armor? Hmm.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        You were too lazy to read the source cited by me. Apparently got to here, and then not to the end:

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Fomenko and Nosovsky? Himself not funny?
                      17. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 28 October 2019 21: 09
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        That is, you seriously believe that princes and boyars everywhere lugged in armor? Hmm.

                        Apparently this is your style: to ascribe your words to the opponent and shamelessly twist: "EVERYWHERE"? "Indispensable sign of culture"? "except to learn ALL LANGUAGES, AS MANY THEM ARE IN THE WORLD."
                        You were too lazy to read further the second paragraph.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Fomenko and Nosovsky? Himself not funny?

                        From the author:
                        To avoid scornful chuckles from my opponents, I will make a reservation right away - I am not a supporter of the New Chronology, as a concept of historical dating, although I do not consider myself to be its opponents. Until I decided on my attitude to this bold hypothesis (sometimes it seems too bold), I found it possible to use the huge body of controversial and difficult to interpret historical facts that its authors collected, but not relying on their conclusions. To this end, within the framework of our topic, I allow myself to quote fragments of the work mentioned above, accompanying it with my comments,
                      18. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 28 October 2019 22: 50
                        0
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Apparently this is your style: ascribe your words to your opponent and shamelessly distort

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        and what he identifies there looking briefly and from a great distance

                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        You were too lazy to read further the second paragraph.

                        Firstly, not the second, but secondly, then the same haze as theirs.
                      19. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 28 October 2019 23: 20
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        First, not second

                        Well, the third. Differences ...
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        secondly, further the same haze as theirs.

                        Well yes. The fact that samples of weapons with exactly the sayings from the Koran, and not with an incomprehensible pattern, was widely spread - this is muddy. And yours
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        If at all they knew that it was an inscription, but did not consider it simply a pattern.
                        - the ultimate truth.

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        And what, you brought some source?

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Do you have any argument?

                        Brought. There is. You have nothing but really muddy:
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Something I had not heard about before.

                        failed to see.
                      20. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 28 October 2019 23: 34
                        0
                        https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/o-sledah-islama-v-istorii-drevney-rusi
                        https://topwar.ru/14222-rus-musulmanskaya.html
                        http://islam.ru/content/history/30967
                        And it is possible to dig up such a "turbidity" at the request of "the history of Islam in Russia" immeasurably, without much straining. If desired. But there is no desire. Right? Because then all your words lose all meaning. Pichalka.
                      21. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 29 October 2019 07: 36
                        0
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        The fact that samples of weapons with exactly sayings from the Koran
                        Which fell like trophies, or purchased without linguistic expertise. Wait a minute Kalashnikov assault rifles around the world, so what?
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        on request "history of Islam in Russia"
                        Many Tatars lived in Russia, but Tatars are Tatars, and Slavs are Slavs. The Russian princes of Islam never professed, which is easily recognizable. If you wish. But there is no desire. Right? Because then all your words lose all meaning. Pichalka.
                      22. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 29 October 2019 08: 02
                        0
                        Healthy again! Your style of juggling bordering on defamation delights!
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Russian princes of Islam never professed, which is easy to recognize

                        Well, here, where did I claim this?
                        I said that Islam in Russia was well-known enough not to confuse quotes from the Koran in Arabic and "a simple pattern."
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        If at all they knew that it was an inscription, but did not consider it simply a pattern.

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        And you personally can immediately distinguish their letter from just a pattern?

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Common where? In Russia? We are talking about her.

                        Yes. In Russia. Widespread.
                        But this generally made my morning!
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        If you wish. But there is no desire. Right? Because then all your words lose all meaning. Pichalka.
                      23. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 29 October 2019 12: 35
                        0
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Healthy again!
                        I don’t remember how many times this was repeated.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Islam in Russia was famous enough to
                        Islam is known now, only no one except specialists can distinguish between inscriptions and patterns, at least in Arabic, at least in Chinese.
                      24. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 29 October 2019 17: 07
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Islam is known now, only no one except specialists can distinguish between inscriptions and patterns, at least in Arabic, at least in Chinese.

                        Here is nobody-nobody? (Don’t nod to me personally) Now, if that were the case, then there would be no conversation.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Healthy again!

                        I don’t remember how many times this was repeated.

                        And again - a lie. You never said that. However, I began to get used to your style.
                        And by the way, why did you demand sources for argumentation from me if you stubbornly ignore them?
                      25. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 29 October 2019 17: 30
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Islam is known even now, only no one except specialists can distinguish between inscriptions and patterns, at least in Arabic, at least in Chinese

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        The current one is really very different from the realities of that era.

                        Wow?! And who says that?
                      26. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 29 October 2019 19: 00
                        0
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Here is nobody-nobody? (Don’t nod at me personally)
                        That is, every meeting person immediately demonstrates writing skills in Arabic and Chinese?
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        And again - a lie. You never said that.
                        Here it is
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        We return to what we have already talked about - the failure and what he identifies there by looking briefly and from a great distance.

                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        sources for argumentation if
                        Fomenko and his branches are not sources.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Wow?! And who says that?

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Nowadays, anyone can see at least Shoigu, even Trump on a TV or computer screen and see in detail. Then there was no television and photographs.
                      27. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 30 October 2019 08: 01
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        That is, every meeting person immediately demonstrates writing skills in Arabic and Chinese?

                        About "everyone you meet" again your words. "Writing skills" too. And "everyone you meet" is smart enough to distinguish writing, even Arabic, even Chinese, from "just a pattern."
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Healthy again!
                        I don’t remember how many times this was repeated.

                        There is not a letter about "healthy again". Again, not true.
                        You continue to stubbornly ignore the sources provided at your request. Instead, you ascribe to me the statement about the Islam of the Russian princes. If there is a desire, then a query in a search engine: "the history of Islam in Russia", but desire, I see, is not. And there will not be, because Fomenko and Nosovsky are either mentioned there in passing, or they do not favor at all, and you have no other reasons for disqualification. By the way, there are no sources of argumentation for your version. And it won't ...
                      28. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 30 October 2019 10: 01
                        0
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        And "everyone you meet" is smart enough to distinguish writing, even Arabic, even Chinese, from "just a pattern."

                        Oh really? I don’t have a single friend who can do this.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        You still stubbornly ignore the sources provided at your request.

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Fomenko and his branches are not sources.

                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        If there is a desire, then a query in the search engine: "the history of Islam in Russia"

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Many Tatars lived in Russia, but Tatars are Tatars, and Slavs are Slavs. The Russian princes of Islam never professed, which is easily recognizable.
                        If you yourself do not understand what you are referring to, then in the article "Russian Islam" that they say Russia was the center of the Muslim world, Moscow is Damascus, etc. dregs. Well, the fact that there is no chronicle information about this, it is supposedly the erasure of everything and everyone. That is the same Fomenkivschina. There are no other arguments for your version and will not be.
                      29. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 30 October 2019 13: 39
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Oh really? I don’t have a single friend who can do this.

                        This proves only the narrowness of your communication.
                        I repeat: not to read and translate, but to distinguish a letter from a "simple pattern".
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        There are no other arguments of your version and will never be.

                        "No and never will" and "Never heard that" are two different things.
                        The Russian princes of Islam never professed, which is easily recognizable.

                        Cleverly, I admit! To invent, attribute to me and then blame me for this! Bravo!
                      30. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 30 October 2019 13: 52
                        0
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        This proves only the narrowness of your communication.
                        I repeat: not to read and translate, but to distinguish a letter from a "simple pattern".

                        Well, how can this be done if a person does not know the Arabic or Chinese alphabet?
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Cleverly, I admit! To invent, attribute to me and then blame me for this! Bravo!

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        If you yourself do not understand what you are referring to, then in the article "Russian Islam" that they say Russia was the center of the Muslim world, Moscow is Damascus, etc. dregs. Well, the fact that there is no chronicle information about this, it is supposedly the erasure of everything and everyone.
                        More fiction will be?
                      31. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 30 October 2019 14: 08
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Well, how can this be done if a person does not know the Arabic or Chinese alphabet?

                        You don't need to know him. It is enough to identify it precisely as a LETTER, and not as a "pattern". It is clear that only a narrow specialist can distinguish, say, an inscription in Japanese from a Chinese one, but if your acquaintances react - note: they will not read it, they will translate it, but it WILL REFER - to an Arabic or Chinese inscription as a "pattern", then the trouble is familiar ...
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        More fiction will be?

                        By inventions, you are a specialist. About "Moscow is Damascus" - the conclusions of the author of that article. It's not about that. The point is that Islam has been known in Russia at least since the time of St. Vladimir, so only your acquaintances could confuse the written phrase with the "pattern".
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        If at all they knew that it was an inscription, but did not consider it simply a pattern.
                      32. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 30 October 2019 17: 46
                        0
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        It is enough to identify it precisely as a LETTER, and not as a "pattern".
                        When they are written on a piece of paper in neat, calligraphic handwriting, but rather printed, and given to them, yes. But something there finely drawn on the helmet, on which in addition to this a bunch of patterns, inscriptions in Russian, a curved surface, this is already more complicated.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        By inventions, you are a specialist. About "Moscow is Damascus" - the conclusions of the author of that article.
                        So did I refer to her? And I thought you were.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        The fact that Islam has been known in Russia since at least the time of St. Vladimir

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Islam is known now, only no one except specialists can distinguish between inscriptions and patterns, at least in Arabic, at least in Chinese.
                      33. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 30 October 2019 19: 00
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        When they are written on a piece of paper in neat, calligraphic handwriting, but rather printed, and given to them in their hands, then

                        Not only do you not read what is offered, but you also don’t look at pictures ...
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        So did I refer to her? And I thought you were.

                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        It's not about that. The point is that Islam has been known in Russia at least since the time of St. Vladimir, so only your friends could confuse the written phrase with the "pattern".

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Islam is known even now, only no one except specialists can distinguish between inscriptions and patterns, at least in Arabic, at least in Chinese

                        Only your speculations based on your stubbornness.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        but if your acquaintances treat - note: they will not read it, they will translate it, but it WILL RELATE - to the Arabic or Chinese inscription as a "pattern", then the trouble is with your friends ...

                        Apart from the fact that among the old Clans there are a lot of people who came from the Turks. Where did they come from? Who, how not such people, distinguish "kalyaks" from the text, and even from the Koran. In addition, the present time, as has been said repeatedly, from the position of which you judge, is not at all then.
                      34. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 31 October 2019 06: 24
                        0
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Not only do you not read the proposed

                        Well, what am I supposed to see there?
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Exclusively Your Fiction Based
                        in common sense.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        In addition to the fact that among the old clans, the mass of immigrants is precisely the Türks.
                        Which tried to Russify as much as possible.
                      35. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 1 November 2019 09: 24
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Well, what am I supposed to see there?

                        Yes, poke your nose - you won’t see.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        in common sense.

                        A very ephemeral thing. Even a schizophrenic (please don't take it personally) has his own "common sense". The flat earth example is also based on "common sense" ....
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Which tried to Russify as much as possible.

                        Of course. But you again forget the time criteria. Then people were much closer to the sources, with all the consequences.
                      36. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 1 November 2019 11: 36
                        0
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Yes, stick your nose

                        Oh how much I poke you.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Very ephemeral thing.

                        On which our whole life is based.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Then, much closer to the roots, people were

                        Just then, the transition to a different faith and the adoption of a new lifestyle meant a new life, and not digging in the past, as it is now.
                      37. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 1 November 2019 12: 23
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Oh how much I poke you.

                        good It has long been noticed that you live in a self-made parallel reality.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        On which our whole life is based.

                        Well, the fact that your life is based on ephemeral representations has been noticed the same way.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Just then, the transition to a different faith and the adoption of a new lifestyle meant a new life, and not digging in the past, as it is now.

                        Again, the concept of "then" is based on the "now" ...
                      38. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 1 November 2019 16: 50
                        0
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        I have long noticed that you live
                        in fictional Fomenko and K reality.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Well, the fact that your life is based on ephemeral representations
                        That you are self-critical.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Again, the concept of "then" is based on
                        what was then. This is now a change of religion as to go to the store ..
                      39. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 1 November 2019 21: 07
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        I have long noticed that you live
                        in fictional Fomenko and K reality.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Fomenko with Nosovsky can go through the woods.

                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Well, the fact that your life is based on ephemeral representations
                        That you are self-critical.

                        You are in your repertoire. Kindergarten, pants on the straps!
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        in common sense.

                        Very ephemeral thing.


                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Very ephemeral thing.

                        On which our whole life is based.

                        And after YOUR recognition of the ephemerality of YOUR common sense, coupled with your whole life, I have nothing to add ... Distort further ... wink
                      40. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 2 November 2019 06: 42
                        0
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Kindergarten, pants on the straps!
                        That you are self-critical.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        And after YOUR RECOGNITION of the ephemeral nature of YOUR same common sense, coupled with your whole life
                        Well, if you live not guided by common sense, then of course.
                      41. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 2 November 2019 07: 03
                        0
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Distort further ...

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Well, if you live not guided by common sense, then of course.

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        That you are self-critical.
                      42. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 2 November 2019 07: 58
                        0
                        The fact that you have nothing to object to, I already understood.
                      43. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 2 November 2019 08: 36
                        0
                        Not at all. I’ll just take your tricks into service. wink
                      44. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 2 November 2019 13: 16
                        -1
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        I’ll just take your tricks into service.

                        That is, starting to learn is already good.
                      45. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 2 November 2019 22: 04
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        That is, starting to learn is already good.

                        That is, acknowledge your distortions.
                        There is nothing to learn, do not flatter yourself. Such "goodness" is taught in kindergarten. But the fact that you still use similar techniques in the absence of imputed arguments and provoke others to this is not good. Well, God bless you ...
                      46. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 2 November 2019 22: 30
                        0
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        That is, acknowledge your distortions.

                        This is when he explained that the stories that someone supposedly once destroyed in the dense Middle Ages all sources of information - are these inventions by Fomenko and K.?
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        But the fact that you still use similar tricks in the absence of sane arguments

                        Did you have them? In addition to the statement that all Russian princes / tsars / boyars supposedly spoke and wrote Arabic in Russian?
                      47. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 3 November 2019 12: 18
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        This is when he explained that the stories that someone supposedly once destroyed in the dense Middle Ages all sources of information - are these inventions by Fomenko and K.?

                        When did you explain something to me? There was nothing but “I haven’t heard”, “my acquaintances don’t know” and there were no references to my “common sense”. request
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        In addition to the statement that all Russian princes / tsars / boyars supposedly spoke and wrote Arabic in Russian?

                        And here, by the way, is a bright classic case of your juggling! Show me the text where I stated exactly what you are incriminating me ... belay
                      48. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 3 November 2019 13: 20
                        0
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        When did you explain something to me?

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Probably there were, just not the fact that someone gave them to study

                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Nothing except
                        The only thing you had was the assurance that everyone should have read it, because you think so.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Show me the text where I claimed exactly what you incriminate me
                        Is that not so?
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Yes, though, remember the notorious "Walking the Three Seas". https://mysliwiec.livejournal.com/4515.html
                        Some merchant knew, but there wasn’t a seasoned trained nobleman?

                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        That is, do you think that Russia was such a damned outback, despite the fact that even a middle-aged merchant knew Arabic?
                        Well, Fomenkovsky nonsense.
                      49. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 4 November 2019 21: 40
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        The only thing you had was the assurance that everyone should have read it, because you think so.

                        Another lie! Not "all", but "quite enough one literate person" and not "assurance", but the real probability of such a case.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Is that not so?

                        Not this way.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Yes, though, remember the notorious "Walking the Three Seas". https://mysliwiec.livejournal.com/4515.html
                        Some merchant knew, but there wasn’t a seasoned trained nobleman?

                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        That is, do you think that Russia was such a damned outback, despite the fact that even a middle-aged merchant knew Arabic?

                        Another lie. Where does it say that
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        all the Russian princes / tsars / boyars spoke and wrote Arabic in Russian as in Russian?

                        And if you read the article I submitted, you would see that the author specifically identified Fomenko and Nosovsky only as suppliers of factual material, drawing completely different conclusions on it. I even quoted TWO times, but your selective vision did not allow me to concentrate on this. request
                      50. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 5 November 2019 17: 03
                        0
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        and the real probability of such a case
                        Probability does not mean that he was. There is much that is possible in the world, but it does not necessarily happen.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        I even quoted TWO times, but your selective vision did not allow me to concentrate on this.
                        What material? That in Russia there were many products from the east? So there is no need to collect any material, everyone knows that anyway. And here
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        About "Moscow is Damascus" - the conclusions of the author of that article.
                        it is already dregs.
                      51. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 5 November 2019 22: 01
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Probability does not mean that he was. There is much that is possible in the world, but it does not necessarily happen.

                        Real. In addition, I at least admit the possibility when you resolutely reject it, guided by your "common sense".
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        About "Moscow is Damascus" - the conclusions of the author of that article.
                        it is already dregs.

                        I repeat: the conclusion about "Moscow is Damascus" is the author's personal cockroaches. I have nothing to do with this. The point is that Islam was well known and widespread in Russia so that at least the first persons of the state would not confuse the inscription with the pattern.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        What material? That in Russia there were many products from the east?

                        In this case, not just "izelias", but "products" bearing direct quotes from the Koran. Not just "kalya balya scribbles", but DIRECT QUOTES FROM THE QURAN. This is serious.
                      52. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 6 November 2019 19: 49
                        0
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        I at least admit the probability when you strongly reject it
                        Probability can be almost anything, so a much less ephemeral concept than common sense.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        The fact that Islam was well-known and widespread in Russia
                        Islam was known all over the world, but it does not follow from this that the submarines of the states that did not profess it could read Arabic.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        In this case, not just "riches", but "products" bearing direct quotes from the Qur'an
                        A lot of things were decorated with such quotes from weapons, and what follows from this?
                      53. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 7 November 2019 19: 16
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Probability can be almost anything, so a much less ephemeral concept than common sense.

                        Probability backed by real historical facts is much less ephemeral of your common sense.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Islam was known all over the world, but it does not follow from this that the submarines of the states that did not profess it could read Arabic.

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        A lot of things were decorated with such quotes from weapons, and what follows from this?

                        It follows that your
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        If at all they knew that it was an inscription, but did not consider it simply a pattern.

                        not wealthy. Moreover, you have just recognized these "just patterns" with quotations. hi
                      54. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 7 November 2019 20: 08
                        0
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Probability backed by real historical facts
                        Well, what are the facts? There are memoirs of someone who wrote that I had seen such an inscription on the prince's helmet in Arabic, which translates as ...? No? Sorry then.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Moreover, you have just recognized these "just patterns" with quotes
                        AND? If I know that these are quotes, then how does this relate to what those who lived a thousand years ago knew? For example, I know what a computer is, and then there were none.
                      55. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 11 November 2019 15: 40
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        No? Sorry then.

                        But this in no way confirms your words about "just drawings". Can you confirm with facts that the ancestors were not familiar with the Arabic script?
                        Here is what Evliya ебelebi blj!) Wrote about Russian hashdecks on the Volga in the middle of the XNUMXth century: “They don’t understand either Turkish or Tatar and don’t pluck their beards. Among them there are Kadiy jurists, many of them translate the books Imadul-Islam, Bezaziye, Kazi Khan, Tatarkhaniye, Muhammadiye, jurisprudence and trebs into the Moscow language, and besides, they speak Muscovite and in Russian ... Their women, like the women of the Nogai people, walk with open faces. This people, hashdeks ... "
                        CyberLeninka: https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/o-sledah-islama-v-istorii-drevney-rusi

                        "The Chuvash village of Baitiryak has a letter from Ivan IV, which mentions many Muslim names ... modern Chuvash people come from these Muslims ... during the Bulgarian rule, the majority of Finns living in this territory were Muslims."
                        CyberLeninka: https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/o-sledah-islama-v-istorii-drevney-rusi

                        Among the Russian Slavs, Muslims still met during this period. Apparently, the ritualism of Russian Muslims was somewhat different from general Islamic norms.
                        CyberLeninka: https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/o-sledah-islama-v-istorii-drevney-rusi

                        I would like to draw your attention to the fact that Muslims, like Christians, are "people of the Book". And if so, the letter is not "just patterns" for them. And if we take into account the fact of the interpenetration of cultures, then one scientist will not confuse the writing of another scientist with beautiful, but - kalyak malyaks.
                        I agree that having met, say, with dashes and cuts, cuneiform writing or nodular writing, you can hang up, like - what is it? But in our case we are talking about practically neighbors. Volga - here it is! And I already spoke about the interpenetration of cultures.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        If I know that these are quotes, then how does this relate to what those who lived a thousand years ago knew? For example, I know what a computer is, and then they were not

                        That's it! It is not necessary to consider ancestors as stupid and dumber! You do not know - WHAT it is written exactly, but you know - WHAT IT IS WRITTEN, NOT A DRAWED ORNAMENT. And if there is a desire to know the meaning of what is written, then there will be a way to find out this meaning. Continuing the analogy with a computer: You know what a computer is and you will never confuse it with a piece of stone. So why do you refuse ancestors of the like?
                      56. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 11 November 2019 20: 01
                        0
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        But this in no way confirms your words about "just drawings".
                        That is, there will be no memoirs?
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        You do not know - WHAT it is written exactly, but you know - WHAT IT IS WRITTEN, NOT A DRAWED ORNAMENT.
                        Because they told me about it. And if they hadn’t said it, it would never have crossed my mind.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        But in our case we are talking about practically neighbors. Volga - here it is!

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        When they are written on a piece of paper in neat, calligraphic handwriting, but rather printed, and given to them, yes. But something there finely drawn on the helmet, on which in addition to this a bunch of patterns, inscriptions in Russian, a curved surface, this is already more complicated.
                      57. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 16 November 2019 19: 09
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        That is, there will be no memoirs?

                        Immediately after you provide the memoirs of someone who wrote that I saw strange patterns on the prince's "helmet".
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Because they told me about it. And if they hadn’t said it, it would never have crossed my mind.

                        In something that would never have occurred to you - I believe. But why do you think that if you were told, then there was no one to tell the owner of the helmet?
                        Quote: Dart2027

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        When they are written on a piece of paper in neat, calligraphic handwriting, but rather printed, and given to them, yes. But something there finely drawn on the helmet, on which in addition to this a bunch of patterns, inscriptions in Russian, a curved surface, this is already more complicated.

                        "More difficult" does not mean "impossible". Look at the photo of the helmet - quite neat and calligraphic. Not from 100 meters, of course, but nonetheless. Yes, and the owner himself considered it and could well show off in front of his friends-comrades with such a chic thing. Why not"? And, in fact, the inscription is on the very top of the head.
                        Here, by the way:
                        https://zen.yandex.ru/media/cyrillitsa.ru/pochemu-na-shleme-aleksandra-nevskogo-byla-nadpis-iz-korana-5c3ac357f896a200ab70ab0e
                        https://fb.ru/article/306206/shlem-aleksandra-nevskogo-arabskie-nadpisi-foto
                        http://kob.su/articles/ayat-iz-korana-na-shleme-aleksandra-nevskogo-vn-vy-znali-ob-etom
                        Pay attention to the photo of the helmets for the clarity and calligraphy of the texts.
                      58. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 16 November 2019 19: 42
                        0
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        memoirs of someone who wrote that I saw strange patterns on the prince's "helmet"
                        Well, no sources.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        But why do you think that if you were told, then there was no one to tell the owner of the helmet?
                        If it was, then why didn’t they say it? In the Christian country of that era, walking with the Slavs of another religion is, to put it mildly, not in terms.
                      59. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 17 November 2019 18: 26
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Well, no sources.

                        This, I repeat, plays against me as well as against you.
                        Oh well. Let's go from the other side. Considering your love to translate everything onto yourself, like: I have not heard, I do not know, I do not know how ..., I want to ask you to list ANY memoirs of the XNUMXth century related to Alexander Nevsky. Please give me an opportunity for a thoughtful: "That is, there will be no memoirs."
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        If it was, then why didn’t they say it? In the Christian country of that era, walking with the Slavs of another religion is, to put it mildly, not in terms.

                        And what do you know about that era? Apparently - nothing. Otherwise, they would know, at least, to whom Alexander Yaroslavich was the named brother. Least.
                        And yes. You again ignored the links I provided ...
                        And according to the old tradition, they did not provide their own, confirming your hypothesis, which is typical. Apparently "common sense" does not allow ...
                      60. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 17 November 2019 18: 55
                        0
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        to list ANY XNUMXth century memoirs related to Alexander Nevsky
                        The story of the life and courage of the noble and Grand Duke Alexander
                        http://www.pravoslavie.ru/39091.html
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        And what do you know about that era? Apparently - nothing. Otherwise, they would know, at least, to whom the named brother Alexander Yaroslavich was

                        Prince Sartak was a Christian.
                        И proves it all justthat just at the beginning of the XVI century, as well as in the XVII century, the success of Turkish weapons and the skill of Turkish gunsmiths made him very popular in Europe, and Russia was no exception.
                        And nothing more.
                      61. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 17 November 2019 19: 38
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        The story of the life and courage of the noble and Grand Duke Alexander
                        http://www.pravoslavie.ru/39091.html

                        Is that all? Is that enough for you? By the way, it says that the Arabic text was perceived as "just a pattern"? If you took an interest in the text of "Life" at least with one eye, you would understand that such information (both "for" and "against") cannot be there in principle. Therefore, demanding "memoirs" from me is stupidity in the highest degree!
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Prince Sartak was a Christian.

                        When and how did he become one? Who was this before?
                        On the fly: "In 1253, the embassy of King Louis of France, headed by the Franciscan monk Guillaume Rubruck, arrived at Sartak through Constantinople. Sartak favorably received Guillaume, but did not enter into negotiations, but redirected him to Bath. One of Sartak's associates said to Guillaume:" “Do not say that our lord is a Christian, he is not a Christian, but Moal,” since the name “Christianity” seems to them to be the name of some people. They are exalted to such great pride that although perhaps they somehow believe in Christ, however, do not want to be called Christians, wanting their own name, that is, Moal. " Good "Christian"! By the way - memoirs.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        And nothing more.

                        Enough not to consider the text of the Koran's suras as "just a pattern." Don't judge your ancestors by yourself.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Because they told me about it. And if they hadn’t said it, it would never have crossed my mind.
                      62. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 17 November 2019 19: 51
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Prince Sartak was a Christian.

                        https://serg-slavorum.livejournal.com/1937660.html
                        https://azbyka.ru/forum/xfa-blog-entry/syn-batyja-xristianin.461/
                        By the way, it plays on my side.
                      63. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 17 November 2019 21: 26
                        0
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Is that all? Is that enough in your opinion?

                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        I want to ask you to list ANY memoirs of the XNUMXth century related to Alexander Nevsky.
                        You really decide what you want.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        however, they do not want to be called Christians, wanting their name, that is, the Moal
                        This is called politics. Note the fact of belonging to the Christian religion is not denied, it is a question of the fact that it must be called according to their customs and only.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Enough not to consider the text of the Koran's suras as "just a pattern."
                        And who said that? A man who did not see these ancestors in the eye, due to the fact that he lives after several centuries? Do you even know that at that time literacy was, to put it mildly, not 100% and the ability to write in your native language was almost a higher humanitarian education?
                      64. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 24 November 2019 21: 21
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        You really decide what you want.

                        What you presented is not enough. Therefore, passes through the department
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        That is, there will be no memoirs?

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Note the fact of belonging to the Christian religion is not denied, it is a question of the fact that it must be called according to their customs and only.

                        And this, again, does not contradict me and does not support you in any way. With such passions boiling on a religious basis, it is IMPOSSIBLE to confuse the text of competitors with "just a pattern".
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        And who said that? A man who did not see these ancestors in the eye, due to the fact that he lives after several centuries?

                        And a person "who has not seen these ancestors in the eyes, due to the fact that he lives several centuries later," hesitantly declares "these ancestors" dense uncouth savages, of course, is 100% right. Yeah. And this despite the fact that I, practically overwhelmed you with evidence that Islam and Arabic writing was far from new in Russia in the XNUMXth century, so that
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        If at all they knew that it was an inscription, but did not consider it simply a pattern.

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Do you even know that at that time literacy was, to put it mildly, not 100% and the ability to write in your native language was almost a higher humanitarian education?

                        Yeah. In the sense, yeah.
                        https://vuzlit.ru/504405/pismennost_gramotnost_shkola
                        https://www.proza.ru/2014/06/11/1703
                        Very mnogabukoff, not a word about Fomenko. I know that you do not like to follow the provided links, but for the sake of interest, strain yourself at least once.
                        "And wall records - graffiti; ti, also testify to the widespread spread of literacy in Russia. And among them there are completely unique ones. For example, in the middle of the 20th century, S.A. Veselovsky discovered inscriptions on the walls of St. Sophia Cathedral in Kiev, which belong to 11-12 centuries. They were made by ordinary townspeople and represent unpretentious short household notes. It is curious that such "creativity" was not encouraged at that time. Moreover, in the "Charter", compiled under Prince Yaroslav the Wise, there are such "literates" who " on the walls they cut ", were even subject to the church court. But people continued to cut various inscriptions - moreover, mainly on the inner walls of churches. And I must say that with all the negative attitude towards this type of creativity, these inscriptions, which are forbidden, punishable , perfectly testify that literacy in Russia was high, and very many Russian people owned writing. And if we talk about the St. Sophia Cathedral in Kiev, then they were probably almost literate. all of his parishioners, including children. Let's note another interesting detail: among the graffiti of St. Sophia Cathedral in Kiev, researchers even found a deed of purchase. Moreover, this is one of the oldest letters of sale, and it dates back to the 12th century. "
                        Again your statement does not beat, however. Or will you again demand confirming "memoirs"?
                      65. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 25 November 2019 20: 09
                        0
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        What you presented is not enough.
                        What they asked for, they got it.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        And this, again, does not contradict me and does not support you in any way. With such passions boiling on a religious basis, it is IMPOSSIBLE to confuse the text of competitors with "just a pattern".
                        Why did it happen?
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        And a person "who has not seen these ancestors in the eyes, due to the fact that he lives several centuries later," hesitantly declares "these ancestors" as dense uncouth savages, of course, is 100% right. Yeah.
                        That is, an educated person must certainly know Arabic?
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        And this despite the fact that I practically overwhelmed you with evidence that Islam and Arabic script were in XIII century Russia
                        Everyone knows about Islam now, only those who have studied it write in Arabic.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        https://vuzlit.ru/504405/pismennost_gramotnost_shkola

                        ... From the time of Vladimir they began to come to Russia church letters, translators from Byzantium, Bulgaria, Serbia. Appeared, especially during the reign of Yaroslav the Wise and his sons, numerous translations of Greek and Bulgarian books both church and secular content ...

                        ... There is a lot of evidence of the wide development of literacy in Russia in the XI-XII centuries. However, it was distributed mainly only in the urban environment, especially among wealthy citizens, the princely-boyar elite, the merchants, and wealthy artisans. In rural areas, in distant, deaf places, the population was almost entirely illiterate ...

                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        https://www.proza.ru/2014/06/11/1703

                        ... In Russia, literacy was provided by a school where they taught counting, provided basic historical, geographical and other useful information, but still the main focus was on mastering the Old Russian literary language...
                        In general, as I wrote, literacy was an analogue of higher humanitarian education, which was not unique, but not universal, and at the same time they studied the Russian language and Russian writing, and also translated not from Arabic.
                      66. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 5 December 2019 20: 20
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        What they asked for, they got it.

                        Another lie! I asked for the memoirs, and you provided the "Life". Moreover, it is not known in what edition. Curiosity about the difference ...
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Why did it happen?

                        From the fact that the principle "I have not read, but I condemn" does not work in this case. Curiosity (at least in the link I provided earlier) by the fate of Sartak.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Everyone knows about Islam now, only those who have studied it write in Arabic.

                        No need to write. It is necessary to distinguish the letter from the "pattern".
                        Here, by the way:
                        https://pikabu.ru/story/shelom_ivana_vasilevicha_dlya_tekh_kto_beglo_chitaet_poarabski_6563650
                        Take a walk, you won’t regret it. Especially in the comments of the bike about Primakov and our Patriarch. That's straight, one to one my version!
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        In general, as I wrote, literacy was an analogue of higher humanitarian education, which was not unique, but not universal

                        I didn’t speak about "general education", these are your insinuations again. That which you recognized as "not unique" and that is bread. Yes, and about the "higher" you are very bent.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        The ability to write in their native language was almost a higher humanitarian education?

                        It is clear that the townspeople are more educated than the villagers, for a variety of reasons. But we are not talking about ordinary villagers and townspeople. We are talking about the highest nobility. I do not understand your desire to introduce Alexander Yaroslavich to the Prince of Novgorod (1236-1240, 1241-1252 and 1257-1259), the Grand Duke of Kiev (1249-1263), the Grand Duke of Vladimir (1252-1263), the commander, the saint of the Russian Orthodox Church and his surrounded by such "mitrofanushki" - uneducated, dense, limited.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        If at all they knew that it was an inscription, but did not consider it simply a pattern.

                        Here's another catch-up:
                        https://s30029300044.mirtesen.ru/blog/43323408372/RELIGIYA-NA-RUSI-%E2%80%94-VZGLYAD-%C2%ABIZNUTRI%C2%BB
                        I draw your attention precisely to the topic of the spread of Islam in Russia, sufficient to see in the suras of the Koran the suras of the Koran, and not "just patterns." I don’t need to ascribe other goals in our conversation.
                      67. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 5 December 2019 20: 33
                        0
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        I asked for the memoirs, and you provided "Life"
                        But you can’t imagine anything at all.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Explore (at least in the link I provided earlier) the fate of Sartak.
                        And what relation does the fact that he was killed refer to the fact that in Russia no one was obliged to understand the Arabic letters? You yourself have not tried to read?
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        https://pikabu.ru/story/shelom_ivana_vasilevicha_dlya_tekh_kto_beglo_chitaet_poarabski_6563650
                        I read
                        Floral and plant-like ornaments similar to ornaments on shell have been known in Russia since time immemorial. Apply Khokhloma to the metal indicated by shell by the method of blackening (and / or graining) of the metal and you will get a very similar ornament.

                        In the latest paintings of the Kremlin chamber, I’m sure, if you wish, you can see the letters of Sanskrit or the Far Eastern hieroglyphs, who is closer to whom.

                        Thus, there is a stylized floral ornament on the helom, or, at the most, the "zakos" of the Russian mster under the Arabic inscription. This imitation is not surprising, since in the Moscow state of the 15-16th century, imported armor of Turkic and Persian origin of excellent quality was widely used. So it is possible that it is "made yue-sai" applied to an already excellent quality helmet. "Shemochean helmets", "Tours helmets" are elite headgear, and imitation of Arabic inscriptions on helmets also emphasized the "elitism" of the wearer.

                        Who was killed in it? Here is a real historical detective story, not the subtraction of Arabic letters and Muslim religious symbols where they are not.
                        Are you tired of making fun of yourself?
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        We are talking about the highest nobility.
                        We read the links you provided last time
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        ... From the time of Vladimir, church diplomas and translators from Byzantium, Bulgaria, and Serbia began to come to Russia. There appeared, especially during the reign of Yaroslav the Wise and his sons, numerous translations of Greek and Bulgarian books of both church and secular content ...

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        ... In Russia, literacy was provided by a school where they taught numeracy, provided basic historical, geographical and other useful information, but still the main attention was directed to mastering the Old Russian literary language ...
                        They loved the Arabic letter you loved so much.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        https://s30029300044.mirtesen.ru/blog/43323408372/RELIGIYA-NA-RUSI-%E2%80%94-VZGLYAD-%C2%ABIZNUTRI%C2%BB
                        First, give links that say that these are just patterns, and then that these are inscriptions. You already decide, huh? As for the article, the only thing that is in it is the assertion that the products of eastern gunsmiths fell on Russia, which no one denied, and that’s all.
                      68. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 5 December 2019 23: 38
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        But you can’t imagine anything at all.

                        Come on!
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        And what relation does the fact that he was killed refer to the fact that in Russia no one was obliged to understand the Arabic letters?

                        Another twitching. I did not say that in Russia they were OBLIGED to understand the Arabic script. Sartak is killed for attempting church reform. He tried to replace Islam with Christianity. So, by definition, I was in the subject of both. Sartak was Alexander's "brother". Very close human relationship. Even if Alexander did not understand Arabica, there was someone to explain the meaning of the "pattern".
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Are you tired of making fun of yourself?

                        Thank you for your reference. But I asked to pay attention to:
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Especially in the comments of the bike about Primakov and our Patriarch. That's straight, one to one my version!

                        And pay attention: "" Zakos "of the Russian master under the Arabic inscription." But not just a pattern.
                        About the "laughing stock". There has been no one here for a long time. There is no one to exhibit before. And you just do not hear me and constantly defame me.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        They loved the Arabic letter you loved so much.

                        You cannot say it with precision. How do you know this? "... but still the main focus." In addition to the main thing, there is also a minor one. It's enough.
                        And where did you get the idea that the Arabic letter is "so" loved by me?
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        First, give links that say that these are just patterns, and then that these are inscriptions.

                        No. The meaning of the article I have cited is that Russian masters perceived the design not as a "pattern", but as a text. As a kind of "quality mark". Crooked, by virtue of their own understanding, but - the text. Not a "pattern". In general, it is strange that I brought you this article, and not you to me.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        As for the article, the only thing that is in it is the assertion that the products of eastern gunsmiths fell on Russia, which no one denied, and that’s all.

                        Nobody argues with this. The point is that not only weapons were hit. About this, too, was in the link I provided. Against this background, your statement about
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        If at all they knew that it was an inscription, but did not consider it simply a pattern.

                        not wealthy.
                      69. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 6 December 2019 17: 44
                        0
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        I did not say that in Russia they were OBLIGED to understand the Arabic script.
                        Oh really? But I’m constantly reading this from you.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Even if Alexander did not understand Arabica
                        The fact that the armor is worn only before the battle, I have already explained to you.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        But I asked to pay attention to
                        And here I paid attention to what you are referring to. However, the fact that you have not read it does not deny it.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        You cannot say it with precision. How do you know that?
                        You yourself cited links that said what was taught in Russian schools.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        The meaning of the article I have cited is that Russian masters perceived the design not as a "pattern", but as a text.

                        On the helmet there is a fragment of an inscription executed in the style of an arabesque pattern. These patterns are difficult to read, even if they are presented in full ... it is impossible to even determine what language it is written in, because many states with a Turkic or Iranian-speaking population used the Arabic script.
                        There is an example of a real inscription on a helmet and the difference is obvious.
                  2. Lannan Shi
                    Lannan Shi 26 October 2019 10: 59
                    0
                    Quote: Dart2027
                    Probably there were, just not the fact that someone had given them to study the princely slime.

                    Arabic, at that time, is quite an international language. Not like English now, but still. And lamentations - they won’t understand, they won’t see, patterns ... It’s like embroidering the word @ opa with gold on a shoigu cap. In spanish. Motivating that it turned out beautifully.
                    1. Dart2027
                      Dart2027 26 October 2019 13: 20
                      0
                      Quote: Lannan Shi
                      Arabic, at that time, is quite an international language.

                      Something I had not heard about before. That is, the interpreters, of course, were and the merchants traveled, but that's to be directly international.
                      1. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 26 October 2019 16: 10
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Something I had not heard about before.

                        Well, this of course is a very serious argument ... Defining!
                      2. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 26 October 2019 17: 05
                        0
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Well, this of course is a very serious argument ... Defining!

                        And what, you brought some source?
                      3. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 26 October 2019 18: 48
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        And what, you brought some source?

                        The source of what? Go back in the text. Although yes, the source brought. Come back again in the text.
                        And by the way, what source did you bring? Nothing except
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Something I have not heard about before
                        I did not find. It remains only to say: "I don't believe in it!" and your reasoning will be complete.
                      4. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 26 October 2019 22: 57
                        +1
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        The source of what? Go back in the text.

                        That the Arabic language was international.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        It remains only to say: "I don't believe in it!" and your reasoning will be complete
                        Do you have any argument?
                      5. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 26 October 2019 23: 26
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        That the Arabic language was international.

                        Please quote the place where I claimed it.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Do you have any argument?

                        Argumentation of what? Argumentation of this?
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        but there were language experts at that time.

                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Yes, though, remember the notorious "Walking the Three Seas". https://mysliwiec.livejournal.com/4515.html
                        Some merchant knew, but there wasn’t a seasoned trained nobleman?
                      6. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 27 October 2019 06: 23
                        +1
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Please quote the place where I claimed it.

                        Not you personally, but the person with whom this thread of discussion began
                        Quote: Lannan Shi
                        Arabic, at that time, is quite an international language.

                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Argumentation of what?
                        This one
                        Quote: Lannan Shi
                        Arabic, at that time, is quite an international language.
                      7. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 27 October 2019 11: 01
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Not you personally, but the person with whom this thread of discussion began

                        In any case - a question for him. Not to me. By the way, what language in those days was "international" in your opinion? Please do not confuse current and current realities.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Argumentation of what?
                        This one
                        Quote: Lannan Shi
                        Arabic, at that time, is quite an international language.

                        Are you serious or have you decided to troll me? Why should I argue the statement of another person?
                      8. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 27 October 2019 12: 08
                        +1
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Why should I argue the statement of another person?

                        Because you entered into a discussion that began with the approval of this very different person and on his side.
                        Quote: Lannan Shi
                        Arabic, at that time, is quite an international language.

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Something I had not heard about before.

                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Well, this of course is a very serious argument ..
                      9. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 27 October 2019 13: 18
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Because you entered into a discussion that began with the approval of this very different person and on his side.

                        Not. Not okay. The side here is purely mine, parallel.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Something I had not heard about before.
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Well, this of course is a very serious argument.

                        The argument: "Something I have not heard about this before" can be applied in any dispute. But this is not an argument. Which is what I said, regardless of Lannan Shi's statement. Again, this "argument" can easily come back to you on occasion. And how then will you fend him off?
                      10. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 27 October 2019 14: 15
                        0
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        Not. Not okay. The side here is purely mine, parallel.

                        Then why interfere?
                        Quote: Vasyan1971
                        The argument: "Something I have not heard about this before" can be applied in any dispute. But this is not an argument.
                        And is someone's assurance that the Arabic language was international is an argument?
                      11. Vasyan1971
                        Vasyan1971 27 October 2019 14: 47
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Then why interfere?

                        This is an outdoor area. I have the right. Want backstage - communicate through a personal. Or say that you have never, never at the VO intervened in the conversation, expressing your opinion?
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        And is someone's assurance that the Arabic language was international is an argument?

                        Money for the fish again! And again, what language was “international” at the time? Maybe the person you quoted meant: "common enough"? I have no idea. Ask him, let him explain.
                    2. The comment was deleted.
              2. Lannan Shi
                Lannan Shi 26 October 2019 00: 04
                +3
                Here it is

                coin of Dmitry Donskoy. And on her ligature. Just for beauty. Drawn without meaning and understanding.
                1. haron
                  haron 26 October 2019 09: 09
                  +2
                  Quote: Lannan Shi
                  coin of Dmitry Donskoy. And on her ligature. Just for beauty. Drawn without meaning and understanding.

                  laughing
                  Exactly)) This is also called "Cargo culture". When dull natives begin to copy the outer forms of a higher civilization, without understanding their inner meaning (this is how the Pacific islanders behaved after the departure of the Amers).
                  Like, if the Muslims seized the floor of the world, the God of Constantinople was squeezed, then everything must be done like theirs. We used to write in Cyrillic (with meaning), but Muslims turned out to be stronger than us - that means we will copy them nonsense.
                  But cheto I do not believe in such a hopeless stupidity of our ancestors. Maybe you don’t need to extrapolate your own ignorance to them?
    2. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 27 October 2019 11: 38
      0
      They could. For them, these inscriptions were "gibberish" and ornament-decoration. Like "Made in Japan" written in Japanese characters on a T-shirt.
      The princes and warriors of the squads tried to arm themselves in the best way.
      Often the best weapons turned out to be foreign (imported). Armor from Turkey, the Caucasus, Iran. And swords from Germany.
    3. Kosh
      Kosh 28 October 2019 20: 08
      0
      Yes, why not, given the fact that Allah in Arabic is actually God. And Christian Arabs, turning to God, also call him Allah. That is, even if they called the interpreter, he could translate that it was simply an appeal to God for victory. Well, let it stay then.
  7. Boozer
    Boozer 24 October 2019 19: 49
    0
    Still, Russia is more like Asia .... Alexander Blok was right ... Yes, we are Scythians ...
    1. alebor
      alebor 25 October 2019 10: 18
      +1
      Russia is an outpost of Europe in Asia.
      1. aakvit
        aakvit 25 October 2019 13: 32
        +1
        And not vice versa? After all, which side to look at ... request
  8. Usher
    Usher 24 October 2019 20: 07
    +2
    Quote: Korsar4
    Interesting. But could the Orthodox sovereigns leave an inscription about the support of the faithful by Allah?

    What's the problem? In fact, Islam did not offend Christianity in its initial interpretation, even in fact it is one faith.
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 24 October 2019 20: 23
      +5
      For example, the choice of the Horde of Islam under the Khan of Uzbekistan became a problem for Christians.
  9. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 24 October 2019 20: 12
    +6
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, drop this Nicolas, write yourself. smile
    I recognize the style and style. I am in Trikukuevsk, therefore, in essence, I have to refrain from commenting on the article sad
  10. Glory1974
    Glory1974 24 October 2019 20: 14
    +4
    Bushkov read that there are ancient coins on which there are inscriptions on one side in Russian and on the other in Arabic. In general, he says that both the Russian and Turkic peoples of the millennium lived nearby and had one empire.
    Of course, the view is different from the canonical, but still ....
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      Edward Vashchenko 24 October 2019 20: 28
      +8
      There are different things to live near and be in the same empire: of course, there has never been a joint state. Russia is a self-sufficient European state; the presence of some elements in armaments or in everyday life has not changed anything and does not change anything.
      1. Glory1974
        Glory1974 24 October 2019 20: 30
        +3
        There are different things to live near and be in the same empire: of course, there has never been a joint state.

        Then where are the coins with inscriptions in different languages?
        1. lucul
          lucul 24 October 2019 21: 07
          +2
          Then where are the coins with inscriptions in different languages?

          Well, do not go over the same))
        2. Ryazan87
          Ryazan87 25 October 2019 14: 38
          +1

          here are yefimki with a sign. It is quite a running monetary unit of the Moscow state, which does not mean, however, the existence of a joint empire with any European state.
          Well, in an earlier period, after all, the power of the Golden Horde was recognized and the khan was officially dignified as king.
        3. alexey alexeyev_2
          alexey alexeyev_2 25 October 2019 14: 41
          0
          Old Russian coins of the 14-15th century up to Ivan the Terrible had either only Arabic inscriptions or Arabic and Russian at the same time.
    2. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 25 October 2019 00: 55
      +6
      Quote: glory1974
      there are ancient coins on which there are inscriptions on the one hand in Russian and on the other in Arabic

      This "phenomenon" was not uncommon in Russia! The Russians often used "foreign" coins, "finishing" on them their "denomination", city "coat of arms" or princely sign ... So, for example, there are known "efimki" - Western European thalers with a "daughter" ...
      1. Lannan Shi
        Lannan Shi 26 October 2019 00: 17
        0
        Have you seen the flakes? Their thickness is tenths of a millimeter. They are technically impossible to mint, while maintaining the old inscription.
  11. kalibr
    24 October 2019 21: 03
    +1
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, drop this Nicolas, write yourself.
    I recognize the style and style. I am in Trikukuevsk, therefore, in essence, I have to refrain from commenting on the article

    Michael. He has a large amount of information which I simply do not own. Having its material as a base, I can improve it in something.
  12. kalibr
    24 October 2019 21: 05
    +1
    Quote: Engineer
    Europeans wore quilted caps under bacinets and chapel-de-ferry
    What did we have?

    To be honest, I don’t know. But something had to be. One iron on the head is hard.
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      Edward Vashchenko 24 October 2019 21: 49
      +5
      The so-called helmet of Yaroslav was probably with fabric inside, judging by archeology.
  13. Undecim
    Undecim 24 October 2019 22: 17
    +10
    A bit on the helmet of Ivan the Terrible.
    For the first time, the helmet of Ivan the Terrible is mentioned in the records of the Royal Arsenal in Stockholm in the 1663 year, but how it got there, by what fate is unknown.
    Until 2009, the Swedes themselves held the version that the helmet came to them from Poland as a trophy during the time of Charles X Gustav. As for how he got to Poland, in addition to the version of A. A. Bobrinsky that the Poles pulled the helmet from Moscow in 1611-1612, there were no other intelligible versions.
    In 2009, the Swedes announced a new version - the helmet came to the Swedes in 1573 during the Battle of Lode Castle, when, under the command of the Eckensson Tott Class, they defeated the Russian troops and captured a large number of trophies. In the "Livonian Chronicle" there is indeed a mention that the Swedes had taken away from the Russians "the entire wagon train, about 1000 sledges loaded with all kinds of supplies and booty." But the very fact of the seizure of the convoy is not evidence of the seizure of a specific object, so the question remains open.
    It is interesting that on the helmet of Ivan the Terrible there are inscriptions in Arabic
    There are no Arabic inscriptions on the helmet, there is an ornament imitating the Arabic inscription. The only person who saw the inscription in the ornament (apart from Bogatyrev, he does not speak Persian) is the translator of the Consulate General of the Islamic Republic of Iran and the teacher of the Persian language Arash Amirkhanlu. when he visited the Astrakhan Museum of Military Glory, where the helmet was put on a temporary exhibition in 2009, Amirkhanlu said that the inscription reads "Allah Muhammad", repeated seven times around the crown of the helmet and is an abbreviation of the famous sura "Allah is great, and Muhammad is his prophet ".
    So far, the version by orientalists is perceived very critically.
    1. Town Hall
      Town Hall 24 October 2019 22: 27
      +6
      As a version .. the truth is the source is so-so)

      So where did the Russian tsars have oriental armor? - I ask the curator of the cold steel collection of the Moscow Kremlin Museums Vasily Novoselov:

      - They became popular among Russian tsars at the turn of the XV - XVI centuries, when the bow began to dominate the battlefield. They bought them in the east, but more often received as a gift. In maneuverable combat, protection from arrows was needed. Therefore, in the armor of a noble warrior appeared spheroconic helmets, chain mail barges. All this was complemented by a damask saber.

      And the eastern masters, decorating the helmets, woven inscriptions in Arabic or Persian, often of a religious nature, into the decor.

      EASTERN ELMAGE CONSIDERED ORNAMENT

      “But did the kings understand what was written there?” Could they know the Arabic language?

      - Oriental inscriptions on weapons were taken as part of the traditional decor. An example is the decoration of the helmet of Ivan the Terrible, which is stored in Sweden (exported from the Kremlin by the Poles in the Time of Troubles and passed to the Swedes during the capture of Warsaw. -Avt.). On it the same fragments of the word are repeated in which the name Allah is guessed. Apparently, the Russian master applied them as an ornament, not knowing the meaning, and therefore without any meaning repeated several times the name part.
    2. Korsar4
      Korsar4 25 October 2019 05: 54
      +4
      I like the version about the ornament.
  14. Mcar
    Mcar 24 October 2019 22: 49
    +2
    Not so long ago, an article was published on VO that talked about ... no matter what, it is important that it was written there that the Arabic inscriptions on the "helmet of Alexander Nevsky" prove something. And they do not prove anything...

    No matter how much indirect evidence, each of them individually proves nothing. This is used by some unscrupulous researchers. For what purpose they are doing this, one can only guess, but obviously not with good.

    On helmets arabica? So bought a helmet. And if in doubt, then you come from. Comprehensive argumentation!

    Arabica on arms? So they bought a weapon. About this in the sequel. And don't be an idiot! Do not ask questions, but hawaii that you have steamed.

    And where will the bilingualism of Russian coins go?


    On what can we write off the bilingualism of Afanasy Nikitin, who, in his famous "Voyage across the Three Seas", here and there, right in the middle of a sentence, switches from Russian to Turkic and vice versa?

    Finally, what about the persistent idioms in our language, which can only be deciphered using Arabic? Just one example: "a retired goat drummer", "you can't drive up on a lame goat", "rip like a Sidorov goat" - what kind of goat it is, and what does the drummer and Sidor have to do with it, can only be understood through Arabic. And similar idioms without counting.

    Separately, but with great desire, you can prove and explain anything. Modern Japanese consider the atomic bombing of their cities a boon. They were proved and explained to them.
    1. Mikhail Matyugin
      Mikhail Matyugin 25 October 2019 14: 13
      +6
      Quote: McAr
      And where will the bilingualism of Russian coins go?

      With coins, everything is straightforward to disgrace - Muscovite Russia HAD NO deposits of native silver and therefore ALL Russian coins in the 14-16 centuries. made of imported silver, often the coins were not even poured, but simply turned over.
      1. Mcar
        Mcar 25 October 2019 20: 29
        -1
        Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
        Quote: McAr
        And where will the bilingualism of Russian coins go?

        With coins, everything is straightforward to disgrace - Muscovite Russia HAD NO deposits of native silver and therefore ALL Russian coins in the 14-16 centuries. made of imported silver, often the coins were not even poured, but simply turned over.

        Quote: McAr
        Separately, but with great desire, you can prove and explain anything. Modern Japanese consider the atomic bombing of their cities a boon. They were proved and explained to them.
  15. shinobi
    shinobi 25 October 2019 02: 52
    +2
    Trade, one of the wheels in the progress machine
  16. Nitarius
    Nitarius 25 October 2019 08: 27
    -3
    Well, they wrote nonsense .... YES BECAUSE THERE WAS A UNIFIED CIVILIZATION! .. and TURKEY AS IT WASN'T .. she was in the Unified Composition of that empire! that's a mustache! and LANGUAGE WAS ONE! Russian!

    Yes, formally, at the time the war started (July 24, 1914), there were four empires in Europe: - Russian, German, Austro-Hungarian and British. But we have more than once already had occasion to make sure that states often exist only for their citizens and subjects, and genuine borders dividing the spheres of influence of the monarchs are in no way connected with the drawn lines on political maps. Now we turn to the full title of the Russian emperor:

    “By God's mercy, Nicholas II, emperor and autocrat of All-Russian, Moscow, Kiev, Vladimir, Novgorod; king of Kazan, king of Astrakhan, king of Poland, king of Siberia, king of Tauric Chersonesos, king of Georgia; Sovereign Pskov and Grand Duke Smolensky, Lithuanian, Volyn, Podolsky and Finland; Prince of Estland, Livonia, Courland and Semigalsky, Samogitsky, Bialystok, Korelsky, Tver, Ugra, Perm, Vyatka, Bulgaria and others; the sovereign and the Grand Duke of Novgorod of the lower lands, Chernigov, Ryazan, Polotsky, Rostov, Yaroslavl, Belozersky, Udora, Obdorsky, Kondia, Vitebsk, Mstislavsky and all the Northern countries; and sovereign of Iversky, Kartalinsky and Kabardinsky lands and areas of Armenians; Cherkasy and Mountain Princes and other hereditary sovereign and possessor, sovereign of Turkestan; the Norwegian heir, the Duke of Schleswig-Holstein, Stormarn, Ditmarsensky and Oldenburg and the like, and the other. ”

    Firstly, the presence of Tartar titles such as Udora and Obdorsk attracts attention. Secondly, we see that Nicholas then, it turns out, "the Duke of Schleswig-Holstein, Stormarn, Ditmarsensky and Oldenburg and others, and ...". All these are principalities located on the territory of modern Germany, Austria and Denmark. And the “other” includes the Principality of Luxembourg, where German troops invaded, declaring war on Russia on August 1, 1914.

    And this is the moment of truth. Precisely because Luxembourg was part of the Russian Empire, and he was attacked by a country that formally, like England was friendly, because in Britain and Russia, the ruling monarchies were connected by family ties, they all came from the kind of Oldenburgs, Nikolai called the Patriotic War. What did the British do? They used this circumstance to draw Russia into the Entente, and at the same time set the German and Austro-Hungarian empires against Russia. And even then everything was predetermined: - the collapse of the Russian Empire, with the transfer of its rights and territories in favor of the legitimate, in accordance with the Maritime (international) law of the heirs - Saxe-Coburg-Goth, which are now called the Windsor.

    https://www.tart-aria.info/tartarija-hh-vek/ тут подробнее
  17. alexey alexeyev_2
    alexey alexeyev_2 25 October 2019 08: 42
    0
    But it proves nothing. In Russia, in addition to the Cyrillic alphabet, Arabica was still actively used .. If we look closely at the helmet attributed to Alexander Nevsky, we will see 13 ayahs 61 surahs. The Arabic inscription is a Christian cross. This letter is Mikita Davydov. Conclusion, Islam and Christianity at that time were the same .. Lies historians ..
  18. EvilLion
    EvilLion 25 October 2019 08: 56
    +1
    Any helmet in those days was so expensive that any scrap metal was used, but then there was simply nothing special to produce weapons and armor in Russia, the local famous iron is of low quality, it will then be opened by the KMA, etc. so that quality weapons on Russia was imported.
  19. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 25 October 2019 09: 00
    +6
    And what do the English inscriptions prove on the Rolls-Royces of the Arab sheikhs?
    Just what the UK do nonsense limousines. Here the same thing, a status thing is a luxury item.
  20. Ekpin Tөlentaev
    Ekpin Tөlentaev 25 October 2019 10: 23
    -3
    The Russians borrowed this military armor from the Turks, as did the domes of churches and the Cathedral of St. Basil the Blessed. Visit the armor museum in Istanbul and everything will be clear. Not because of love for Muslims in Russian helmets in Arabic script, but because there was a time when in Russia they wrote in Arabic Read the prayer in "Walking across the Three Seas" by the merchant Afanasy Nikitin. There is a prayer from the Koran translated in Arabic script and Cyrillic
    1. alebor
      alebor 25 October 2019 10: 39
      +5
      Borrowing domes is a very controversial issue, because their arrangement is completely different: the Russian dome is closed from below, and the Muslim one is open, i.e. the similarity is only external, but not constructive.
      Well, the scripture in Russia in Arabic must be confirmed by the numerous texts that have reached us in Russian, but for some reason all the texts are in Cyrillic, and arabica is found only on oriental exported goods - weapons and coins.
    2. Mikhail Matyugin
      Mikhail Matyugin 25 October 2019 14: 10
      +6
      Quote: Ekpin Tulentaev
      The Russians borrowed this military armor from the Turks, as well as the domes of churches and St. Basil's Cathedral.

      Nothing strange and no borrowing from the East - Byzantium was an architecture teacher in Russia, it was her architects who built the first temples in the Kiev period. And from the same Byzantium, Muslims borrowed both their domes and minarets, if you did not know (and the types of helmets were adopted from Sassanid Iran).
  21. Altai72
    Altai72 25 October 2019 10: 44
    0
    Quote: alexey alexeyev_2
    But it proves nothing. In Russia, in addition to the Cyrillic alphabet, Arabica was still actively used .. If we look closely at the helmet attributed to Alexander Nevsky, we will see 13 ayahs 61 surahs. The Arabic inscription is a Christian cross. This letter is Mikita Davydov. Conclusion, Islam and Christianity at that time were the same .. Lies historians ..

    And they still lie. And the beginning was laid by the crusaders.
    The canonical version of the letter of Sultan Mehmed IV to Zaporizhzhya Cossacks uses the following title:
    I, the Sultan and the lord of the Brilliant Porta, the son of Muhammad, the brother of the Sun and the Moon, the grandson and viceroy of God on earth, the lord of the kingdoms of Macedonia, Babylon, Jerusalem, Great and Lesser Egypt, the king of kings, the lord of lords, an incomparable knight, not defeated by anyone a warrior, the owner of the tree of life, the persistent keeper of the tomb of Jesus Christ, the guardian of God himself, the hope and comforter of Muslims, the intimidator and great defender of Christians, I command (...).[i] [/ i]
  22. kalibr
    25 October 2019 12: 46
    +3
    Quote: Altai72
    I, the Sultan and the lord of the Brilliant Porta, the son of Muhammad, the brother of the Sun and the Moon, the grandson and viceroy of God on earth, the lord of the kingdoms of Macedonia, Babylon, Jerusalem, Great and Lesser Egypt, the king of kings, the lord of lords, an incomparable knight, no one defeated the warrior, the owner of the tree of life, the persistent keeper of the tomb of Jesus Christ, the guardian of God himself, the hope and comforter of Muslims, the intimidator and great defender of Christians, I command (...). [i] [/ i]

    And what from this?
  23. kalibr
    25 October 2019 12: 47
    +3
    Quote: Senior Sailor
    Just what the UK do nonsense limousines. Here the same thing, a status thing is a luxury item.

    Exactly. But it was about the non-existent "helmet of Alexander Nevsky".
  24. Mikhail Matyugin
    Mikhail Matyugin 25 October 2019 14: 07
    +3
    Dear Vyacheslav, thank you for such a magnificent, truly scientific and educational article!

    Quote: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
    The fact that this is how we are convinced again by the exhibits of the Armory and the Stockholm Armory, which holds the helmet of the Tsar ... Ivan the Terrible! For the first time, the helmet of Ivan the Terrible is mentioned in the records of the Royal Arsenal in Stockholm in the 1663 year, but how it got there, by what fate is unknown.
    Everything is very simple - as a trophy was taken from captured Moscow by the Poles during the Time of Troubles, and when the Swedes staged a pogrom of Poland, they took it as a trophy in Warsaw in 1655 and took it home. So he settled down in the "Stekolny".

    And for me it is still not clear why the classic Ottoman helmet was called in Russia "Jericho cap" or "Jericho", like the historical Jericho, although it existed then and now, but was not a major center of arms production?
    1. kalibr
      25 October 2019 15: 26
      +1
      Dear Michael! I am glad that you liked the material. But it is bad that I cannot give you an exhaustive answer to the question. Why Jericho? That's why really? It would be necessary to build specialists of the Armory Chamber in Moscow. I'll try ...
  25. kalibr
    25 October 2019 15: 27
    +1
    Quote: Ekpin Tulentaev
    because there was a time when in Russia they wrote in Arabic

    There was no such time, even crack!
  26. kalibr
    25 October 2019 15: 30
    +1
    Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
    With coins, everything is straightforward to disgrace - Muscovite Russia HAD NO deposits of native silver and therefore ALL Russian coins in the 14-16 centuries. made of imported silver, often the coins were not even poured, but simply turned over.

    Quite right! In the Copper Riot, in order to use silver money again, it was necessary to take silver vessels from the Armory ("koi worse") and mint money from them. There was no silver! It was all stolen by the annuaki from Nebiru ...
  27. Altai72
    Altai72 25 October 2019 15: 51
    0
    Quote: kalibr
    Quote: Altai72
    I, the Sultan and the lord of the Brilliant Porta, the son of Muhammad, the brother of the Sun and the Moon, the grandson and viceroy of God on earth, the lord of the kingdoms of Macedonia, Babylon, Jerusalem, Great and Lesser Egypt, the king of kings, the lord of lords, an incomparable knight, no one defeated the warrior, the owner of the tree of life, the persistent keeper of the tomb of Jesus Christ, the guardian of God himself, the hope and comforter of Muslims, the intimidator and great defender of Christians, I command (...). [i] [/ i]

    And what from this?

    That's when we will debate with you, then ask.
    Being malicious is not good!
    And the article is so, Nitsche, to satisfy. boldly pulls.
  28. kalibr
    25 October 2019 19: 05
    -1
    Quote: Altai72
    That's when we will debate with you, then ask.

    To dispute with you? Are you the author of a monograph on this and related topics, did your books receive grants from the Russian Humanitarian Science Foundation, and were articles published in well-known scientific journals? Yes? No? If not, then there is nothing to "dispute".
  29. Aleks2000
    Aleks2000 26 October 2019 00: 07
    0
    Excellent article.
  30. kalibr
    26 October 2019 17: 22
    0
    Quote: McAr
    On helmets arabica? So bought a helmet. And if in doubt, then you come from. Comprehensive argumentation!

    Exactly! Because the simplest explanation is the most correct. There is such an "Occam's Razor" and she explains it very well.
  31. Igor Leukhin
    Igor Leukhin 26 October 2019 20: 14
    +1
    If you look at which territories were part of the Great Mogul (not to be confused with Mongolia), then you don't have to rack your brains looking for some evidence. There is the entire territory of the former USSR, by the way, together with Mongolia, which became Mongolia only in the 19th century, and before that such a name did not exist in principle, the territory of modern Turkey, Iran, Syria, Iraq, And the army had its own - "Soviet"
  32. kalibr
    26 October 2019 21: 41
    0
    Quote: Igor Leukhin
    the territory of modern Turkey, Iran, Syria, Iraq, And the army had its own - "Soviet"

    Was there a Soviet army in Turkey?
  33. mamont5
    mamont5 27 October 2019 11: 05
    +1
    It proves the same as the West European swords with the corresponding inscriptions. That there was trade with both the West and the East, there were gifts and trophies, and also that they preferred to order the bulk of expensive weapons abroad.
  34. kalibr
    28 October 2019 12: 20
    0
    Quote: mamont5
    It proves the same as the West European swords with the corresponding inscriptions. That there was trade with both the West and the East, there were gifts and trophies, and also that they preferred to order the bulk of expensive weapons abroad.

    That's it!
  35. phair
    phair 30 October 2019 04: 53
    0
    I was in the Armory, a tour guide to my question why the Arabic inscriptions on coins from the treasures did not find the answers. We were integrated into the global economy.
  36. otto9966
    otto9966 1 November 2019 11: 11
    0
    Inscriptions in Arabic? Maybe the king was a Muslim? Since he wore a helmet with Quranic texts, he could not know about it ....
  37. Nitarius
    Nitarius 12 March 2021 06: 19
    0
    this proves .. that Russian and Arabic are the same language! the author is a parasite!