We are building a fleet. Expansion zones

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You can talk for a long time about what the fleet should do, but another question is equally important - where will the fleet do it. If you look at the fleet as an instrument of foreign policy, then it should do what it is ordered anywhere. It is necessary to provide convoys from the Baltic to Venezuela - it provides, it is necessary to ensure the blockade of the Libyan coast - it provides.

We are building a fleet. Expansion zones

In the zone of our domination fleet the fate of the adversary can only be such




In the end, these local tasks will also come down to the fact that it is first necessary to establish dominance at sea in a given area for the required time, and then use it to solve the following problems - some sort of landing somewhere, for example. But such "expeditionary" actions will have a limited scale. It is easy to imagine a combat mission off the Libyan coast, which can be accomplished by an aircraft carrier (the same Kuznetsov, for example), a dozen frigates and a couple of submarines. But it’s quite difficult to imagine a task against the same enemy that would require collecting four missile cruisers, a BOD and five SSGNs there - the Libyans do not have such forces there, but they will have to fight against NATO in a completely different way. to another.

Therefore, when discussing questions of expeditionary actions, it is worth starting from the fact that some forces, both surface and submarine, the fleet should be able to deploy anywhere, and should be able to protect them from threats such as “breaking a single diesel-electric missile range torpedo salvo ”. Or from air raids, the limit of power of which was shown by the Argentines in the Falklands. In an extreme case, you will have to destroy some of the less powerful ships and old diesel submarines.

This is technically feasible even now and does not require much discussion on the theoretical one. Although I have to work.

Much more important are the fundamental questions - where are those water areas, the need to ensure dominance in which does not depend on current foreign policy? In what zones of the World Ocean should the Russian Navy be ready to seize supremacy in the sea and hold it indefinitely for any policy, for any relations with certain countries? There are answers, and they will be given.

Step 1. Squadron combat service areas


As stated in the article “We are building a fleet. Special Operations: Nuclear Deterrence ", in order to prevent a sudden nuclear strike against the Russian Federation, the combat stability of the strategic nuclear forces must be ensured - first in the form of the establishment by the Navy forces of dominance in the areas through which the SSBN is deployed for combat services in which the combat services themselves are located, and in which protected combat zones are located. In the notorious "bastions." Subsequently, after the possibility of deploying strategic nuclear forces in the ocean is ensured, the Navy will be required to protect some sections of the SSBN deployment routes and “intercept” those anti-submarine forces with which the enemy will try to disrupt the strategic nuclear forces.

In the first case, it will be about absolute domination - no anti-submarine forces (PLC) of the enemy should be able to act in the "Bastions".

In the second case, everything will be somewhat more complicated, and we will talk about actions in areas where the enemy in theory will be able to challenge dominance at sea, but there the Navy’s task is rather to knock down the enemy’s PLC from the track and allow the boat to “get lost”, and Do not keep the given area “locked”. Such operations will be more raids than regular efforts to establish supremacy at sea. But in the "bastions" - a completely different matter. The enemy has already trodden a path there, studied them as a native home, and, taking into account the fact that these areas have a limited area, they will have to defend themselves, defend themselves, and fully control everything.

We look at the map of the "bastions" from the article on nuclear deterrence.


The first and most urgent task is to ensure the deployment of strategic nuclear forces, which means that domination is needed in areas through which the substrates go to the military and the military services themselves


This is the first goal for the fleet. In these zones, it is necessary to ensure supremacy at sea, and absolute, that is, when the deployment of enemy forces in these areas against the will of the Russian Federation, and when the latter is ready to use force, will be impossible in principle.

Now there is no such thing.

What enemy forces threaten the Navy in these areas? First of all, these are submarines. And it is anti-submarine defense that should become the basis for actions to establish and maintain supremacy at sea in these areas. That is, it is important to have, firstly, anti-submarine ships, not necessarily very large and powerful, but necessarily numerous, and secondly, their multi-purpose submarines capable of withstanding foreign, and thirdly, anti-submarine Aviation, not like it is now, but full-fledged, and fourthly, fighter aircraft that can protect anti-submarine aircraft from enemy fighter-interceptors (from aircraft carriers deployed at a distance from the “bastions” of, for example, or bases in neighboring states) and “close the sky” for enemy base patrol aviation (BPA).

What if the enemy collects a "fist" from surface ships and tries to neutralize the forces of the Navy? He must be met by our naval base strike aircraft, capable of hitting naval targets, and specially trained and equipped for this, as well as submarines operating from areas closed to the enemy’s BPA. This is the minimum that we must begin to go now. We have everything for this.

A separate topic is mine support, which in those specific conditions will be needed, including, and very far from its bases.

Having achieved the ability to establish supremacy at sea in these limited areas, it will be necessary, relying on the revived forces of the Navy, to take the next step - to provide marine communications critical for the connectivity of the Russian territory, on which we depend to a critical degree (as if residents of distant areas offshore from this thought).

Step 2. Protecting your communications


At present, approximately 2,2 million people live in the territories of Russia, which on a significant scale can only be supplied by sea and included in the national and global economy through maritime communications. This is much more than for example in Iceland. In these regions, there are such facilities as Norilsk Nickel, a gas liquefaction plant in Sabetta, a nuclear submarine base in Vilyuchinsk, and ice-free ports rare for Russia.

Among the territories tied to the rest of Russia only through sea communications are Sakhalin Island, the Kuril Ridge, Kamchatka, and Chukotka. Of the significant cities, one can recall, for example, Kaliningrad, Norilsk, Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky, Magadan. The Northern Sea Route and numerous villages on the Siberian rivers, and the coast of the Arctic Ocean are also there. There is also a very large share of domestic GDP, access to the Pacific Ocean, the shelf and fish of the Sea of ​​Okhotsk, the economic significance and condition of Vladivostok, Russia's involvement in the Asia-Pacific region, where the “center” of the world historical process in this century is transferred, and much more.

These communications are critical for the existence of the Russian Federation in its current form and the preservation of its territorial integrity. Thus, the need to dominate them is non-negotiable.

Map.


Areas through which sea communications vital for Russia pass. The need to ensure absolute dominance of the sea in them is not discussed.


It is easy to see that the “bastions” are located precisely on these communications, and, accordingly, the tasks of dominance in communications and “bastions” overlap somewhat. It is logical that having secured dominance in the “bastions”, one can use the created forces and accumulated experience for further expansion. Thus, in the second stage of the revival of the Navy as an effective force, it should be able to ensure dominance in the following areas:

The North is the entire NSR up to the Bering Strait plus the “bastion”, through the area of ​​which communication between mainland Russia and our islands in the Arctic Ocean is provided.

The East is the entire coastal zone along the Pacific coast, starting from the Bering Strait, and ending with Primorye, and the waters through which communications connect all these lands. Including the entire Sea of ​​Okhotsk.

Baltic - line Gulf of Finland - Kaliningrad region. Ensuring dominance in the Gulf of Finland and the possibility of a complete blockade of the former Soviet republics of the Baltic States should be guaranteed.

The Black Sea is the entire coastal zone from Abkhazia to the Crimea, including the Sea of ​​Azov and its communications, especially the Novorossiysk - Crimea ports.

Immediately it is worth stipulating that such an expansion of the zone of domination or, in peacetime, control, does not mean at all that it will be necessary to proportionally increase the strength of the Navy. For example, the NSR areas east of the northern "bastion" may well be controlled remotely, using underwater lighting systems, base anti-submarine aviation, literally one or two submarines, a couple of patrol icebreakers, and the same border 97P. Doubling the area to be monitored, in this case, does not even mean close to doubling the fleet forces that are needed for this.

Although the increase in the number of ships in comparison with the first step, of course, will be needed, but not at all gigantic. A certain number of corvettes, an extra regiment or two of anti-submarine aircraft, more intense operation of existing submarines, a willingness to take aviation from other theater of operations to aerodromes - something like this will increase the naval power of the Russian Federation on our communications. But what will have to be built up is reconnaissance equipment, both acoustic and satellite. But without this, in any case, to us in any way.

Thus, having taken those communications, the control of which is vital for us, it is necessary to take the next step - to create an analogue of the ground “near field”, a zone in which, if it comes to military operations, we will have to meet any enemy and in which we will have to fight with him in order to prevent him from our communications.

Step 3. Expansion of the zone of domination and expansion


If the “Bastions” and communications should ideally be the zone of our absolute dominance at sea, then here you first need to at least come to the challenged, when the enemy can sometimes be there for a short while - but with a high risk to himself. And, subsequently, of course, one must strive to establish the absolute dominance of the sea in these zones.

We look at the map.


In the case of a hypothetical war, the enemy must be kept in these areas or generally outside of them. But no closer


As you can see, almost everywhere we are talking about domination at sea in the water areas directly adjacent to the areas in which our communications pass. The exception is the Mediterranean Sea. The reason is simple - it is from there that cruise missiles from ships and submarines can strike at our territory, which means that the ideal of the enemy should be met there. In addition, one of our main historical enemies - Great Britain, there is a vulnerable point that they cannot but defend - Gibraltar. This can be very important within the framework of the previously mentioned scheme of raider actions - the mere fact of the presence of Russian forces in the region will fetter a part of the British Navy forces near Gibraltar, even without conducting hostilities - which means that these forces will not appear, for example, in the Barents Sea ...

At first glance, the idea of ​​keeping the Navy’s formation in the Mediterranean seems “fatal” - the Mediterranean Cold War OPECC would be doomed, what can we say about our time? But the fact is that political circumstances are changing. Firstly, the first and successful steps have been taken to break away Turkey from NATO. If everything goes as it is, then one day the Black Sea will be a safe rear zone, and the transit of ships through the Black Sea Straits will be ensured even during a hypothetical war. And secondly, today, behind the back of the Navy there is a full-fledged naval base in Syria, reinforced by the VKS base - we did not have such trump cards during the Cold War


Bone Throat USA - Navy Tartus


Western European countries are critically dependent on gas supplies from Russia, and will not support the United States by force. And apart from the hypothetical “big war”, the military presence of the Navy is now a necessary factor in the politics of the region. Whether we like it or not, but in Syria, Russia crossed the Rubicon, and now we can’t leave anywhere — we can only come somewhere. A permanent connection in the Mediterranean, therefore, is necessary from any point of view and in any political situation.

In the future, as opportunities grow (we hope for the best), the Navy will have to make continuous efforts to expand zones where sea supremacy can be established, or at least where we can prevent the enemy from establishing one. In this case, the desired frontier is the Tomahawk cruise missile launch line across our territory. It’s not a fact that it will ever be possible to do it in full (more likely not even than yes), but firstly, it may turn out incompletely, and secondly, at least we will not allow the enemy to act calmly, which itself in itself is very good.

It is worth noting that in some places the ground forces will also have to work, for example, in the event of war, in eastern Norway. As indicated in the article “We are building a fleet. Attacks of the weak, loss of the strong in some ways the army can help. In any case, not only the fleet can cover the army flank, but the army can provide a “friendly shore” to the fleet.

Directions for further “expansion of opportunities” are shown on the map.


Green lines are the front of further "expansion of opportunities." Arrows (where visible) - such directions


The fundamental question


The fundamental issue in all this is the need for ships of the ocean zone. Oddly enough, but such a "defensive" nature of naval planning does not preclude military operations in the ocean zone. The first and most important thing is that maneuvering between the theater of operations is not possible other than through the ocean zone, respectively, it is necessary either to fundamentally abandon the transfer of reserves from fleet to fleet, or still have some ships capable of operating in the ocean zone. And these should be strong ships, although there may not be many of them.

Similarly, it is impossible to imagine without such ships any limited operation off the coast of Venezuela or Cuba.

In the event of a major war, without such ships active offensive operations are impeded. And with a dull defense against the strongest enemy, the weak side always loses.

Thus, in general, the defensive and non-expeditionary war-oriented nature of naval construction does not exclude the need to have warships in the ocean zone; moreover, they are still urgently needed, both for local tasks somewhere far away and for defense countries off their shores.

Consecutive actions "from simple to complex" to gain the ability to establish dominance at sea in these areas will be the process during which the fleet regains the required combat readiness and meaningfulness of its military programs - from shipbuilding to capital construction. It is this process that will be the restoration of Russia's sea power in its rational form.
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259 comments
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  1. +9
    18 October 2019 05: 42
    Thanks, reasoned article!
    1. +8
      18 October 2019 05: 56
      Baltic - line Gulf of Finland - Kaliningrad region. Ensuring dominance in the Gulf of Finland and the possibility of a complete blockade of the former Soviet republics of the Baltic States should be guaranteed.
      however ... it only seems to me. that in the case of active DB, the situation in the Baltic will be exactly the opposite, and our fleet will be "locked"?
      1. +12
        18 October 2019 07: 36
        In the case of a database, the occupation of the Baltic republics should happen automatically, but then we can lock our fleet in the bases only with the involvement of Sweden, whose probability of involvement in the conflict is far from absolute.
        1. +4
          18 October 2019 07: 54
          Quote: Sergey Valov
          In the case of a database, the occupation of the Baltic republics should happen automatically, but then we can lock our fleet in the bases only with the involvement of Sweden, whose probability of involvement in the conflict is far from absolute.

          that is, you don’t even consider all of coastal Europe? Have you ever seen a map?
          1. -6
            18 October 2019 14: 05
            It is not necessary to consider it, however, like all the forces of NAT, which is a paper tiger, but in reality it is one for all and each for itself.
      2. +3
        18 October 2019 07: 52
        This is one of the reasons why the occupation of the Baltic states is inevitable. The second reason is Poland.
        1. -1
          21 October 2019 20: 15
          Look, you yourself say that the Baltic countries did the right thing by joining NATO. And after all, such fears moved them.
          In the present state, the price of occupation will be significantly higher than before entry.
          1. 0
            22 October 2019 06: 12
            By joining NATO, the Baltic countries posed themselves the need for their occupation. This, of course, is the right decision.
            With neutrality, as in Finland, such a need would not be.
            1. 0
              22 October 2019 06: 51
              In 1940 they didn’t enter anywhere and ...
              I say they remember the story. And the price of their capture is now unreasonably high.
              1. 0
                22 October 2019 09: 12
                This was to teach them that Russia cannot afford to have an enemy bridgehead on their territory.
          2. 0
            22 October 2019 11: 54
            Well, yes, now they have a serious chance to become a battlefield. The price of occupation is several tactical IDs.
            1. -1
              22 October 2019 20: 47
              For parts of NATO ?? You do not admit that a symmetrical response will be the normal response of their military. Your next step?
              In addition, raising the topic of the use of nuclear weapons, you acknowledge that using conventional weapons to achieve this goal for the Russian Armed Forces will be too difficult.
              1. 0
                24 October 2019 08: 32
                My opinion and the opinion of the General Staff may differ greatly. By the way, I didn’t claim that YAZ would be used to start a conversation. They will come into play a little later. But for the Balts, what's the difference? They simply will not exist ... As for the "nuclear exchange", the advantage is on the side of the Russian Federation, and many times over. Therefore, NATO's loss of a pair of airfields or tank columns is unlikely to lead to an all-out nuclear war. They will ask for peace as soon as they suffer the first significant losses. It has always been that way. They are brave only in conditions of impunity.
                1. 0
                  24 October 2019 20: 57
                  Some kind of naivety. Following your logic, they are generally "nonhumans."
                  The weakness of this position is in the hope of fidelity to the ideological attitude. What will you do if the installation does not work? In such important matters, they do not plan to do so.
                  According to the logic of the military, it will destroy carriers and weapons depots. And the counter-question: are you or I (and my wife and daughter) ready to burn for the Baltic states. My answer is no.
                  1. 0
                    25 October 2019 14: 11
                    No one will ask you. War has its own logic. Russia carried out shelling, seizure or restoration of its territory (anyone likes it) only in a situation which is extremely dangerous for it or after the outbreak of external aggression. That is, to eliminate the possibility of his unpunished murder. So the questions about the outbreak of war are for our highly democratic partners. It’s good or bad, I don’t know, but the initiative always came from them. And not only in relation to Russia. Or do you prefer to give up?
                    Then burn not for the Baltic states, but for something else that Washington will decide for. After all, Russia and its people do not need anyone there in general.
                    1. 0
                      25 October 2019 17: 04
                      Tell us about the “total burning” of the Japanese who surrendered then. Where are they now? The third economy of the world, no one interfered with the development of peace. In extreme cases, you must be able to lose too. Adequate adversary (Hitler was not).
                      1. 0
                        26 October 2019 20: 31
                        I’d better tell the Germans. Here they will believe. Because they themselves planned our complete destruction. Americans are no better. They killed several million defenseless Germans by bombing and famine in the camps. Germans! They generally do not consider Russians to be Russian. It is not necessary to equate the USSR-Russia with Japan and Germany. The latter remained intact with the money only because the USSR did not burn out as planned. Plans to dismember and destroy the bulk of Russia's population have existed for hundreds of years. They are only being upgraded.
                      2. +1
                        27 October 2019 03: 09
                        Hundreds of years? Are you talking about the World conspiracy of the Jewish Freemasons? )))
                        No kidding?..
                    2. 0
                      25 October 2019 17: 09
                      Washington does not set a goal to destroy the Russians (Tatars, or Bashkirs), I am sure. Because it is pointless (and there are pragmatists), it involves huge losses. "The wealth of the earth"? They don’t build it. Everything is fine with them, the budget is 15 times bigger than ours. In general, in the first 5-10 economies there are no countries whose main income is “subsoil rent”. Suggests thoughts.
                      1. 0
                        26 October 2019 20: 41
                        Some ridiculous arguments: "there are pragmatists", "senseless." It reminded me of the monologue of the Wolf from "Three Little Pigs": "These piglets are skinny. I will not eat them!" Have you read Mein Kampf? Everything is very pragmatic there. Russia is like a bone in the throat for the United States and Europe. The most powerful militarily of the relatively independent countries from the West. It prevents them from managing the world by their very existence, instills dangerous hopes in others. Therefore, as soon as they consider their military victory highly probable, they will attack immediately. In case of their victory, the Russian Federation will be divided into dozens of small bantustans under the technical control of Poles, Japanese, etc. Bantustans will constantly play off each other (like Ukrainians with Russians) until the number of dangerous natives decreases 10 times.
                        you democracy and capitalist happiness. Like the Indians in the USA.
                      2. +1
                        27 October 2019 03: 13
                        Dear, what information mess in your head! What is Mine Kampf and the USA? The latter, together with our grandfathers, fought against the Nazis.
                        And again conspiracy theories) All this is not serious. Watch REN TV less, do not read Prokhanov.
                    3. +1
                      25 October 2019 17: 16
                      It is very likely that a trial (“intimidate”, “weakly”) can provoke them to launch a disarming strike of nuclear weapons - ours. In the course of a certain conflict taking place in the logic of “collecting lands”, doomed to failure in a protracted (conventional) version.
                      At our heights, IMHO, the idea of ​​restoring the territories of the RI century, on the 19th, walks. In the 21st, their population will strongly object.
                      1. 0
                        26 October 2019 20: 50
                        Nobody will scare them. It will be like a duel between Ilya Muromets and D'Artanyan: a blow with a club is a wet place. One has only to shoot them in the direction of Kaliningrad or St. Petersburg ... In modern warfare, there is no time for curtsies. But ours will not be the first to shoot. NATO members will have to zhahnut themselves and call a journalist. Well, as Hitler organized the provocation in Gleiwitz or the United States in the Gulf of Tonkin or in the raid of Havana. They are not the first time ...
                      2. +1
                        27 October 2019 03: 05
                        So many clubs. What will you do with their marine component of the strategic nuclear forces? And she is invulnerable to the first blow. Therefore, there should immediately be an understanding that so many tens of millions of OUR people should be burned for a show of strength.
                      3. 0
                        7 December 2019 10: 47
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        . Therefore, there should immediately be an understanding that so many tens of millions of OUR people should be burned for a show of strength.

                        Yes, when it comes to you that our people will be destroyed in ANY case! Not in a nuclear fire duck in the meat grinders of organized conflicts, the collapse of the economy, debt slavery, or some other way! The number of Russia is not 150 million, but in 15-10 this is the goal of Western countries, and by what method it does not matter! Or are you sure that you’re guaranteed a place as a Gauleiter? If so, then all your opuses about caring for our population is a concern for the preservation of livestock for the owner, over whom to panic then? If all heads are laid down in a battle with the aggressor .. You are clearly not living in Russia, if you are carrying such nonsense, our country has always fought for SURVIVAL! Unlike many friends fighting for the expansion of living space and the preservation / increase of the standard of living of their citizens ..
                      4. 0
                        7 December 2019 21: 01
                        Do you happen to believe in the world Masonic conspiracy ??
                      5. 0
                        7 December 2019 21: 12
                        Bullshit ... A phrase taken out of context, in the interpretation of propaganda, did it affect you? Where is critical thinking?
                        Conspirology is incompatible with reality ...
                        Developed countries have not needed “slaves” for a long time. The Russian Federation is happy to sell them resources (and they are trying to diversify supplies), in exchange for high value-added products or the currency for which these products (slightly worse) can be purchased from China, etc.
                2. 0
                  24 October 2019 21: 01
                  Second World War? British defense? War with Japan at sea?
                  The story of 2 snipers in Mogadishu (Randy Shugart and one more)?
                  The desire to protect people is not a weakness.
                  1. 0
                    25 October 2019 14: 16
                    In everything you need to know the measure. Definitely need to protect their civilians. But the military has a different fate, how lucky. Sometimes the one who takes too much care ends up in the grave before the one who acts desperately. This is true for both units and compounds.
                    1. +1
                      25 October 2019 17: 01
                      Sometimes an exception confirms the rule. Take a look at the statistics of our losses in 2MB.
                      1. 0
                        26 October 2019 20: 52
                        Do not believe it - I was interested. I did not see a significant difference with German or American. If all are not judged cheating, but the same.
                      2. 0
                        27 October 2019 03: 07
                        Did not see the difference between the losses of the USSR with German and American? (Do I understand correctly?) Then the question is: what sources did you use?
      3. The comment was deleted.
        1. +1
          18 October 2019 10: 09
          Our fleet will seek to lock in its naval base, we must strive to prevent this.

          In WWII, this problem was solved by aviation even on piston aircraft. Now even more so. Given NATO’s overall superiority (roughly 10 aircraft versus our 000), there’s generally no bigger corvette and diesel-electric submarines.
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. +1
              18 October 2019 23: 06
              Quote from rudolf
              But even a pair of ships of the first rank would not hurt for harassing exits to the North Atlantic

              1. Through the Danish Straits?
              2. Bothering anyone?
            2. 0
              19 October 2019 01: 14
              By filing in the Baltic - xs. Baltic is generally a submarine cemetery. With its depths and the presence of anti-submarine aircraft in the enemy, our submarines will have a very difficult time. I would suggest returning to babies. Especially for the Baltic, build small submarines. Like the same Piranha. Moreover, our opponents already tried on this idea and built such submarines. In my opinion, it is worth returning to them and us. Pieces 12 small submarines capable of operating at depths of up to 200m for 2-4 torpedo tubes. And periodically, the exercises should be conducted on a secret exit to the area of ​​the Danish Straits.
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. 0
                  19 October 2019 14: 36
                  And what's the point in an increased autonomy for the small Baltic? Cupid 950 is certainly the best for the Baltic from what it is, but in my opinion something even less is needed.
                  If you do not take into account the Gulf of Bothnia and the Swedes, the coverage area of ​​our submarines is generally tiny. Plus shallow depths. The smaller the submarine, the more it will have the opportunity to maneuver.
            3. 0
              22 October 2019 11: 07
              One destroyer in the North or Caribbean seas will force a potential enemy to draw a significant part of the forces and means of its fleet to stop the threat.
              Yes uzhzhzhzh laughing
              And how long will he stay there? And who will fuel it?
              "Bismarck" was filled up, and you about "one destroyer will force".
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. 0
                  27 October 2019 12: 41
                  Not more than 2-4 units on 3M14. I think two. SBN is too expensive, but you can lose everything before launch. There is a nomencl. weapons. At the SSBN this is a necessary evil, I'm talking about quantity. One megaton-class NFC was more expensive than the carrier itself. As an example, pr.629. In the salvo of the regiment Tu-22m2 aircraft carrier 20 cars, 2 missiles. And only out of 40 missiles were two with nuclear warheads.
          2. +1
            18 October 2019 14: 07
            Russia has radars and air defense systems there - hell, who will fly into their coverage area, and soon coastal missile systems will be tightened.
        2. +1
          18 October 2019 14: 35
          Yes, right down to the landing on Bornholm.

          But here is the clarity with which I should be the Baltic Fleet, to be honest, no.
          1. +2
            18 October 2019 15: 10
            Yes, right down to the landing on Bornholm.
            But here is the clarity with which I should be the Baltic Fleet, to be honest, no.

            Yes, there seems to be enough torpedo boats.

            No one has complete clarity, I think. Depends on the nature of hostilities, tasks, political situation, allies, etc.
            Too many factors + need to look into the future.
            But if you evaluate the past, then you can estimate the main factors.
            1. The presence in the impasse of the Gulf of Finland, on the outskirts of the country, a large 2nd city in Russia (St. Petersburg), even an urban agglomeration, with powerful industrial potential, the loss of which in case of war will be very sensitive for the country. And the need for its reliable protection, including from the sea.
            2. The presence of a semi-exclave in the form of the Kaliningrad region, the supply and protection of which in wartime is possible only by sea, at least until the land corridor is broken or air supremacy over the Baltic states is ensured.
            3. Most of the coastline of the Baltic Sea belongs to potentially hostile states. More space to accommodate airfields, radar, freedom of maneuver by forces and means, the possibility of landing and strengthening their forces.
            4. Relative shallow water, which impedes the operation of submarines, and increases mine danger.
            And much more. All you need to consider, figure out different scenarios and work. But who cares?
            1. +2
              18 October 2019 15: 21
              Now torpedo boats can not do.

              You have correctly described everything, and here you need to find a CHEAP answer to this call. Until I see someone looking for him.
              1. 0
                18 October 2019 15: 41
                They need hovercraft: dessert and providing short-range air defense and protection from boats and corvettes.
              2. 0
                22 October 2019 07: 08
                Sometimes, there is simply no cheap (and enough uriaersalny) answer.
                The development of industry, the economy, the ability to build a sufficient number of universal ships is the best option.
          2. 0
            18 October 2019 23: 14
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            all the way down to Bornholm.

            The landing on Bornholm seems to be carried out a week after the surrender of Germany. It was especially witty that the island was Danish, but the Danes managed to get rid of the liberators only a year later.

            In any case, it seems that you are going to carry out landings in the country of NATO before the surrender of the latter, and not after.
          3. 0
            19 October 2019 01: 30
            Mostly Baltic ships need BMZ ships. That is, a bunch of corvettes 2038x - MRC 22800. There are 4 corvettes, 2 more are under construction. Next, replace the German-built IPC with the 2038x corvettes - one to one. Boats and old MRK gradually change to Karakurt. Buyan-m return to the Black Sea Fleet. In my opinion, having 12 corvettes 2038x and 12-18 MRC 22800 will be enough.
            11540 and 956 gradually change to 22350. 3 frigates are enough here.
            Submarines are only small types of piranhas. Conventional drafts at the Baltic depths with a large number of NATO aircraft will not be effective. Pieces 12 minisubmarin for 2-4 torpedo tubes.
            Rook - 3 pieces per base. Minesweepers - 6-12 Alexandrites. Everyone remembers the experience of the Second World War; Baltika will quickly become a soup with dumplings. 3 Adexandrite in Baltiysk and Kronstadt minimum. and preferably 6. My IMHO. hi
            The article is interesting, but about the Turks - is debatable. Even if they suddenly withdraw from NATO, THERE WILL ANNOUNCE NEUTRALITY, AND DOESN'T MISS THE SHIPS OF THE ENEMY PARTIES. In the event of a major war, the Black Sea Fleet should lock itself inside, take control of the World Cup and nightmare the Romanians of the Bulgarians and, at the moment, the Turks. Whatever their relationship, but so far they are in NATO. So the Turks are the main goal of the Black Sea Fleet.
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. +1
                19 October 2019 14: 27
                Corvette is a ship of protection. Mrk - attacks. This is a cheap platform for expensive rockets. Thr mrc is needed as much as is needed to ensure such a volley density so that with a guarantee it can penetrate air defense about any enemy that might be on tvd.
                1. +1
                  21 October 2019 20: 19
                  The problem of RTOs is that it cannot defend effectively. Once discovered, against a frigate and destroyer - it is not a tenant. To strike long distances, he needs target designation.
                  IMHO, the optimal construction of large frigates with a displacement of about 7000-8000 tons.
                  1. +1
                    21 October 2019 21: 55
                    He does not need to defend himself. There are corvettes for this. He needs to shoot his 8 missiles and tear his claws as quickly as possible. For example, under the protection of corvettes or the shore.
                    This is the same bunch that was in the Soviet fleet, but DMZ. Defense - BPC 1155, attack - 956 Sarych. No ideology. Just tools. MRK is a CHEAP platform for expensive missiles, which you can have 2-3 times more than corvettes. The corvette has its own task, and if it collides with the enemy's face, then the ship's captain clearly did something wrong.
                    1. 0
                      22 October 2019 06: 39
                      Are corvettes physically enough for defense? Have we got shipbuilding superpowers?
                      In addition, there is a problem of target designation, and there is at least a helicopter on the corvette. And seaworthiness, which significantly limits the geography of movements and the possibility of using weapons.
                      In addition, IMHO, more or less universal ships simplify the organization of their use. That with our traditional carelessness and reckoning "at random" is also not superfluous)
                      (They will forget to check the weather, or conduct RT reconnaissance before sorties, as in 08.08.2008)
                      1. 0
                        22 October 2019 15: 22
                        Looking at which tvd. What opponents will confront. request We are talking about the Baltic. About closed TV with contractual restrictions. A small theater of war, where the coast can both see and deliver air strikes against the fleet at any point. A50, located in Kaliningrad will see everything. There are also enough coastal radars to see the entire active zone of the Baltic. In the comments above, I expressed my opinion. There are enough 12 corvettes and 18 mrk on the BF. Plus, in my opinion, mini-submarines for 2-4 torpedo tubes would be useful. And to build it not at once, but as the German-built missile defense complex, as well as old missile launchers and missile boats, are retired. For our St. Petersburg industry this is a real challenge. Plus there is Kaliningrad Amber.
                        There are 4 corvettes, 2 are under construction. To build another 6 pieces as the IPC 1331 is eliminated is a simple task. In pr-ve mrk now a bottleneck - engines, but the problem is being solved. The Kingisepp Plant is actively involved in the topic. He has already mastered the production of parts. 2 Karakurt already, plus 2 Buyan-m. At least another 2 mrc is being built for the Baltic. To build 10 more pieces of 12 mrc over the next XNUMX years is quite realistic. hi
                    2. 0
                      23 October 2019 08: 31
                      There is a cheaper platform for missiles than an RTO - an airplane.
                2. +1
                  21 October 2019 20: 33
                  And the installation: “corvette - a weapon of defense, RTOs - attacks” are very similar to ideological. It seems like "an aircraft carrier is a weapon of aggression." And these are just tools. And a large guard (corvette) has more functionality, versatility than a large boat (MRK).
        3. 0
          21 October 2019 20: 16
          What missile strikes? Conventional? Because the whole territory of the Russian Federation is open for the ICBM.
      4. 0
        18 October 2019 14: 08
        It depends on our actions above all. And from how we will prepare, technically and tactically.
        1. 0
          21 October 2019 20: 37
          What to do with industry and the economy?
          1. 0
            22 October 2019 13: 03
            You count how much money allocated to the fleet was sent upwind, and how much despite all the problems Russia has built up (not what was needed). And questions will disappear.

            We do not need to copy the US Navy, our tasks are more modest. And at 90-95% we are ready to solve them right now both economically and technologically.
            1. 0
              22 October 2019 21: 25
              IMHO, many types of military equipment of the same / similar purpose increase the cost / complexity of its production and maintenance.
              The same Americans are richer, but they have one MBT, a huge series of destroyers of the same type (small changes in modifications are not critical).
  2. +5
    18 October 2019 07: 35
    In general, I agree.
    There is only one point. The blockade of the Baltic states is not needed. Because in cases where a blockade is needed, occupation will also be needed. Rapid occupation, up to the use of tactical nuclear weapons.
    1. 0
      21 October 2019 20: 25
      Look here: let's say a big war because of the occupation did not start. But: in the process killed the fighters of NATO and the United States, in particular. What non-military actions would you take in response, in their place?
      (Imagine for a second that it’s not entirely silly and timid)
      You may face a technological blockade, an embargo on the purchase of hydrocarbons, the sale of equipment, medicines and much more. What will you do with it?
      1. 0
        22 October 2019 05: 36
        In the case of a blockade of the Baltic states, violent actions against the ships of NATO countries with the same outcome will have to be applied.
        But strategically, the situation with the bridgehead in the Baltic and the Baltic Sea open to enemy movement will be worse.
        1. 0
          22 October 2019 06: 44
          45% of the budget (only officially) is filled from the sale of hydrocarbons, at least half goes to NATO member countries. Making plans to attack the main client seriously ... is unreasonable. Someone said that politics is a continuation of the economy.
          1. 0
            22 October 2019 08: 49
            Why do you suddenly attribute the attack? We just do not need war.
    2. 0
      21 October 2019 20: 43
      The second option: unexpectedly (!) Responded symmetrically to the use of nuclear weapons. The prospect of further escalation loomed, with a predictable ending. And the meaning of all this then? What are your next steps?
      Life is not a computer game, it will not work to restart.
      1. 0
        22 October 2019 05: 41
        The choice is small: either fight or surrender. What do you choose?
        1. 0
          22 October 2019 06: 49
          The choice is to start a hopeless conflict, this time.
          The second point: sometimes, for the sake of your people, you can give up (to an adequate opponent). We recall Germany and Japan in 1945: there and there were people who were convinced that it was necessary to fight to the last German / Japanese. And those who had the opposite opinion were considered traitors. History has put everything in its place.
          1. 0
            22 October 2019 08: 50
            If the conflict begins, we will not start it. So the question is only what to do in response to aggression against us? To fight or surrender?
            1. 0
              22 October 2019 20: 44
              Suggest your options for starting a conflict. In 1939, he began an obsessed dictator with enormous personal power. This is not currently available in Europe.
              1. 0
                23 October 2019 07: 47
                And the two opium wars also began a crazy dictator?

                The scenario of the beginning of the war.
                The US strikes first. 95% of Russia's strategic nuclear weapons are destroyed. A retaliatory strike against the United States, Britain, Poland and Romania is killing several million in these countries. The media of the West amicably and unanimously begin to say that Russia attacked, by virtue of its malice, towards freedom and democracy. The great war for freedom begins to destroy the evil and aggressive Russians.
                1. 0
                  23 October 2019 16: 56
                  We recall the events earlier, when the Republic of Ingushetia seized new territories. Or in the same 19th century, when China weakened by the aforementioned wars literally pulled out (pressure, threats) a significant part of the modern Far East (China remembers).
                  Examples are about nothing. You really don’t see the difference? Opium wars, in terms of complexity and danger - the defeat of Hussein's Iraq (even easier, it was stuck in the Middle Ages, China).
                  Hitler started an extremely dangerous adventure, dangerous for his fellow citizens. A dictator who had absolute power.
                  None of the leaders of the United States or European countries will begin such a conflict first.
                  But in the case of the first nuclear attack on our part (in one or two capitals, as is often suggested here on the forum) and the deaths of those very few million people, they may well decide that the risks of a disarming strike are not so great. But such a decision can only be made in response, I’m sure.
                  1. 0
                    27 October 2019 09: 43
                    Quote: 3danimal
                    We recall the events earlier, when the Republic of Ingushetia seized new territories. Or in the same 19th century, when China weakened by the aforementioned wars literally pulled out (pressure, threats) a significant part of the modern Far East (China remembers).
                    Examples are about nothing. You really don’t see the difference?

                    Here are really your examples about nothing. Because say nothing about the ability of the US to start a war first.

                    Quote: 3danimal
                    Opium wars, in terms of complexity and danger - the defeat of Hussein's Iraq (even easier, it was stuck in the Middle Ages, China).

                    China at that time was the richest country with the largest GDP. But England took advantage of its military-technical superiority to plunder it.
                    Now the United States, too, is striving to achieve military-technical superiority because of all efforts.

                    Quote: 3danimal
                    Hitler started an extremely dangerous adventure, dangerous for his fellow citizens. A dictator who had absolute power.
                    None of the leaders of the United States or European countries will begin such a conflict first.

                    Again there was a goofy propaganda about "dictators" and "democracy". As soon as two conditions are achieved: impossibility to rob and military-technical superiority, it will begin.

                    Quote: 3danimal
                    But in the case of the first nuclear attack on our part (in one or two capitals, as is often suggested here on the forum) and the deaths of those very few million people, they may well decide that the risks of a disarming strike are not so great.

                    The use of tactical nuclear weapons against civilians is pointless. Although, of course, this is consonant with the mentality of the British and Americans who bombed the cities of Germany and Japan.

                    Quote: 3danimal
                    But such a decision can only be made in response, I’m sure.

                    Your confidence, moreover backed up by propaganda quirks about "dictators", is worthless.
                    But the preparation of the United States for the first disarming strike is a weighty argument for the fact that they intend to do so.
                    1. +1
                      27 October 2019 10: 49
                      No twists. It was the dictators who launched 2MB. England, France up to the last adhered to the attitude "if there was no war", the United States - "this is far away and does not concern us."
                      Here the USA is much stronger than Norway rich in hydrocarbons. According to your logic, should they attack for a long time?
                      In conventional weapons (quantity, proportion of modern weapons) they are now superior to the Russian Federation. So what?
                      Attacks for the purpose of robbery are outdated (for developed countries), I’ll tell you a secret. A lot of countries themselves are investing in the same States, and everything is in the black.
                    2. 0
                      30 October 2019 08: 48
                      China in the 19th century was an archaic country stuck in the Middle Ages. Some generals believed that the British use witchcraft (otherwise how can you shoot so accurately), where further ..
                      And the victory was won by small expeditionary forces, and mainland Britain did not threaten ANYTHING. Dot. Therefore, China then, Iraq is now on the same level.
                2. 0
                  27 October 2019 11: 09
                  In such a scenario, they continue to crush military facilities with the use of free-falling bombs (no need to redirect the “firmware”).
                  Fortunately, it is unlikely.
  3. 0
    18 October 2019 08: 06
    Super series! Interesting to read!

    We look at the map of "bastions"

    But why black + mediterranean - not a bastion? I understand, Ukraine, Turkey ... But theoretically, you can constantly accompany both surface and underwater with the potential threat of instant destruction.
    1. +1
      18 October 2019 14: 09
      Please, I try.

      NATO bastions are the areas indicated on the first map. They deployed SSBNs, a significant part of the forces of the fleet protects them there. Therefore, the bastion.

      What to do in the Black and Mediterranean Sea is written in the article.
  4. +9
    18 October 2019 08: 14
    That is, it’s important to have, firstly, anti-submarine ships, not necessarily very large and powerful, but surely numerous, and secondly, their multi-purpose submarines capable of withstanding foreign, thirdly anti-submarine aircraft, not the same as now, but fourth, fighter aircraft capable of protecting anti-submarine aircraft from enemy fighter interceptors
    That's it. And what do we see in practice when building a fleet? The opposite is true. Instead of building a mass series "improved 1124", we are building "gunboats" in the form of all kinds of 22800, 21631, 22160, the anti-submarine capabilities of which are zero, and the strike capabilities of all units taken together in each fleet are overlapped with an excess of one IBA regiment on the Su-30. But we supply the Su-30 to the fleet negligibly little, and we do not supply it at all to the Northern Fleet and Pacific Fleet, although the same Su-30, in addition to strike functions, also solve the task of covering the fleet from enemy aircraft. We also do not build PLO boats, instead, a large missile of Project 885 in scanty quantities.
    After all, it was possible to make a massive universal ship out of 20380, which, although not equal to Project 1124, replaces it partially. But no ... We need new projects! More "calibers"!
    1. +2
      18 October 2019 10: 01
      And what do we see in practice during the construction of the fleet? Everything is completely the opposite.

      Right. And this shows a lack of understanding of the tasks of the Navy and, consequently, a phased strategy for its development among our leaders. Article 5+.
    2. +2
      18 October 2019 14: 11
      The same emotions. Therefore, I sometimes incite against the mass construction of RTOs sometimes.

      But - an important point! An anti-submarine corvette should use PLUR. And it is launched from No. C-14. And from it starts ... Caliber!

      So, switching to corvettes, we do not lose Caliber in the salvo. Well, or not much to lose.
      1. +2
        18 October 2019 14: 27
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        An anti-submarine corvette should use PLUR.

        And have normal hydroacoustics, plus a helicopter is desirable. And ... bang bang - it turned out 20380! But instead of "Uranus" you need to stick "Medvedka" - the mass dimensions of the launcher are the same. The result would be a good-quality SKR with a powerful anti-aircraft gun, very toothy air defense, excellent seaworthiness (differently better than 1124). True, the price tag ... Well, or if you don't live, don't be, you need Calibers - 20385. Only the point is that you need them already yesterday and for each fleet there are 10-15 pieces, that is, there are 50 ships in total in the series. With our production rates - unrealistic.
        1. +1
          18 October 2019 15: 06
          This is really a very difficult question. There are no bears. Left in the past.

          I’m thinking about writing corvettes somehow. But there will be more questions than answers))
      2. 0
        18 October 2019 15: 22
        And what is better for relatively small ships - "Caliber" in the PLO version or "Medvedka"? Which is not brought to mind so that there is much left, EMNIP ...
        1. 0
          18 October 2019 15: 23
          Well, if we assume that everyone will take up the mind))) ...
        2. +1
          18 October 2019 15: 40
          Something like Bears with controlled flight.

          But this is if you look at the issue in isolation, through the prism of evaluating the effectiveness of an individual corvette.

          And if from the point of view of the fleet as a combat system, then UKKS with Caliber.

          Another unresolved issue is the ship BMZ and OVR.
          1. 0
            18 October 2019 19: 26
            If you look from the point of view of obtaining a cheap PLO corvette, then take the Zelenodolsk corvette 22160 (patrolman DMZ) - to the cut of the deck, only the hull and the power plant and place in / on it the UKSK for 8 UVP (instead of the helicopter hangar) with rocket-torpedoes, "Package -NK "on both sides," Pantsir-M ", a cannon and a good GAK (you can take it from 20380 \ 20385, they seem to be praised) ... So an inexpensive PLO corvette is ready with good seaworthiness, excellent target weapons, good autonomy and All its constituent elements have already been mastered by the industry, which means that they can be built quickly and inexpensively.
            In the meantime, as far as I heard / read, the idea came up to put back into operation from the reserve with the modernization of 1124 - to cover the needs of the PLO in the near future. Now, if these were returned (to temporarily cover needs), and the new ones in Zelenodolsk were laid (even to the detriment of plans for RTOs) according to the project I proposed ... it would not be bad.
            Otherwise, there will simply be nothing to hold anti-submarine defense.
            1. +3
              18 October 2019 20: 01
              22160 has very poor body contours, disgusting, it cannot develop speed on them, plus blows to the body are constant. Chatting him so that a pinwheel with a serious wave can not be planted on him.

              Zelenodolsk has a better project, in fact, they just pushed their design bureau to the backyard and build what they ask, without offering anything else.

              Gus Dawn on such a small case does not rise.

              In the meantime, as far as I heard / read, the idea came up to put back into operation from the reserve with the modernization of 1124 - to cover the needs of the PLO in the near future.


              There is such a thing, but there the question is how many ships it will be possible to upgrade, they are already very old.

              The scope of modernization is also not yet known.
              1. 0
                19 October 2019 00: 25
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                22160 has very poor body contours, disgusting, it cannot develop speed on them, plus blows to the body are constant.

                I did not know that everything was so bad with him, even in this (seaworthiness). And like a patroller for the far sea zone sculpted ...
                Well, what about "Dagestan" (in the Caspian Sea) as a base for an anti-submarine?
                Yes, even the corps of the same 20380, but without the expensive air defense (only "Pantsir-M"). It is important that the industry could build this ship MASSOVO and inexpensively. And fast. Therefore, as a lego, it must be assembled from existing components and integrated into one body, already mastered by the industry.
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                Chatting him so that a pinwheel with a serious wave can not be planted on him.

                But this (spinner) for a ship of the near zone and such a displacement (up to 2000 tons) is an unnecessary option - it takes up a lot of space to the detriment of weapons / ammunition. In the near zone, it will be able to work with the base aircraft of an ASW, and the place is better used for placing missile-torpedoes, "Paket-NK" with normal ammunition, including counter-torpedoes, a good HAC, including a towed antenna. And no expensive "vignettes" - all just to the point.
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                Gus Dawn on such a small case does not rise.

                Well, if it stands on a body of 2000 tons, then you can fit on a body of 1300 - 1500 tons, if necessary, strengthen the body - it's worth it. This is a submarine hunter. When "Polynom" was put on the BOD, many were also surprised - where such a whopper is put on, but everything turned out very well.

                And about the corvettes ... new ... I have such an opinion, if you are ready to pay for one corvette with a displacement of 2000 - 2500 tons 17 - 20 billion, so it is better to order a frigate (!) Of Project 11356, supply it with a better SAC (at least the same "Dawn"), load the UKSK with rocket-torpedoes (or at least half with the "Caliber", and the air defense system ... leave the same or do with "Pantsirem-M". As a result, you will get much better for the same money - a frigate The PLO, which is also an escort frigate, can cope with itself. Seaworthiness (and the possibility of using a helicopter on a wave), autonomy, cruising range, ammunition capacity, service conditions - all the better. But the money is the same. And the industry has mastered it. the zone will be good, and in the distant one, if necessary, it will go off. After all, the cost of the hull is only 15% of the cost of the entire ship. So why shove so much weapons and equipment into a tiny hull if it costs more than the export version of the frigate? for PLO and the near zone, and everyone will be happy.
                And in general, it seems to me that it is time to return to specialized ships of small displacement - there will be more sense ... Although, it seems that they themselves have already arrived at the headquarters.
                1. +3
                  19 October 2019 10: 02
                  Well, what about "Dagestan" (in the Caspian Sea) as a base for an anti-submarine?


                  So there is a project on it. The only drawback is that there is a GAS based on Platina-M. Weak.

                  On the other hand, with its antenna, you can figure out a GAS that will catch low frequencies, but I do not know how much this will work. Nevertheless, the project is already there. Only the Zelenodolsk plant itself does not care what to build, and the fleet does not know what it wants, as a result, there is a synthesis of the interests of the waste, the morons in the Commander-in-Chief and several high-ranking saboteurs, and, as a result, we have what we have.

                  Let's hope this is for now.
                  1. +1
                    20 October 2019 01: 54
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    Well, what about "Dagestan" (in the Caspian Sea) as a base for an anti-submarine?


                    So there is a project on it. The only drawback is that there is a GAS based on Platina-M. Weak.

                    So integrate the "Dawn" on it, since it satisfies the requirements, it can slightly strengthen the hull for this (although it is unlikely to have to - they have almost the same displacement), and go ahead. Instead of "Palma" - "Pantsyr", instead of 533 mm torpedoes. 2x2 - "Packet-NK", in UKSK - anti-torpedoes. And it will come out much cheaper than these "pumped" corvettes. Instead of RTOs, which, after the death of the INF Treaty, have already lost their value as floating batteries for "Calibers". Ground complexes will be cheaper and more convenient to operate.

                    If at the "top" there was talk about the return of old IPCs from the reserve, it means that the navy already knows what it wants. And it's hard to come up with a better solution than the 11661 in the modernized version.
                    1. +1
                      20 October 2019 11: 24
                      Quote: bayard
                      If at the "top" there was talk about the return of old IPCs from the reserve, it means that the navy already knows what it wants. And it's hard to come up with a better solution than the 11661 in the modernized version.
                      - I respect! It has long been written about that to Alexander, citing a lot of arguments ..
                    2. 0
                      20 October 2019 19: 58
                      Huge dawn, on the corvette 20380 gives an extra three and a half meters of draft. Not sure if she fits in there.
                  2. +1
                    20 October 2019 11: 21
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    So there is a project on it. The only drawback is that there is a GAS based on Platina-M. Weak.
                    Come on, Alexander ... Well, I have repeatedly dropped the link to you, in which it is described that 11661 since 1986, incl. and the possibility of installing the Zarya State Joint Stock Company was being worked through ... (... - At the beginning of September 1986, the defense of projects 11660, 11661 and 11662 began. After modifications for the Uran missile complex, the Zarya state complex and other equipment, the concept of the "Basic platform for a family of ships" was finally formulated. from - http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-438.html) and options for a diesel power plant (similar to the replaced /in the process of forced import substitution/ later at 20385 ?! .... Be bold, Alexander ... Develop your thought ... I am sure that you yourself understand perfectly well that each new 20380 is 5-6 billion, "unnecessary overpayment" from the funds allocated for the construction of new ships for Navy ?!
                    1. 0
                      20 October 2019 19: 56
                      You write like it’s against me. But you probably confuse me with someone, I am not against it.

                      On the merits of the question - as far as I know, Zarya did not get up there, she was healthy, even on such a rather big ship as 20380 she gave an extra 3,5 meter of draft, where I can’t even imagine where to put it in the 11661 hull.
                      1. 0
                        28 October 2019 01: 18
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        You write like it’s against me. But you probably confuse me with someone, I am not against it.
                        Well, thank God.

                        Here I am even more interested in the following question. Tell me better as a person "closer to the problems of modern Russian naval shipbuilding" - why are new ships of the BOD / EM class not being laid down and built for the Navy ?! It only seems to me, or in reality, these problems (construction / laying) are primarily related to the fact that, for example, the same SJSC "Zvezda-2" and the potential for its creation (or analogs) remained on the territory of the Luhansk region (covered by the war) and on the territory of the Russian Federation, there is not a single enterprise capable of creating such complexes yet ?! Or are there enterprises capable of creating something similar and supplying ships for the Navy under construction ?! Or (option 2) PJSC "Zvezda-Reducer" cannot create a normal and capable (in metal) gearbox for a promising power plant from the cruise GTE M-70FRU and the afterburner M-90FR ?! Or maybe the speed of creation and delivery of the Poliment-Redut air defense system for the fleet leaves much to be desired ?! ... Ie I'm wondering what exactly is the problem ?! Well, in reality ... Otherwise, I believe that project 21956 had every reason to go into series ...
                      2. 0
                        28 October 2019 10: 40
                        why aren’t new ships of the BOD / EM class for the Navy built and built ?!


                        On the 22350M approach, pinch your fists for this project.

                        Or (option 2) PJSC "Zvezda-reducer" cannot create a normal and capable (in metal) gearbox for a promising power plant from the cruise GTE M-70FRU and the afterburner M-90FR ?!


                        It is much simpler than for 22350, so I think it will.
                      3. 0
                        28 October 2019 14: 13
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        On the 22350M approach, pinch your fists for this project.
                        Is there a certainty that there is a Zvezda-2 (Polynomial) type GAC for ships of this class ?!
                      4. 0
                        28 October 2019 15: 09
                        On it, the light did not converge like a wedge, in our theory they know how to do GAKs, so long as they do not cut the low-frequency range again, like in the usual "Zarya".
                      5. 0
                        28 October 2019 19: 53
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        In theory, we know how to do GAKs, if only they do not cut the low-frequency range again, like in the usual "Zarya".

                        rather than "in theory", but in practice ?! Is there something ready (or close to that - "at the exit") ?! Is this not the reason for the problems of laying ships of this class?
                      6. 0
                        28 October 2019 21: 50
                        Yes, the usual Dawn to expand the band in the low frequency range and here you are happy.
                        Now the GAS is not so fundamental, anyway the boat hears further - always. It is important to correctly integrate everything - a network of ships with towed antennas, anti-submarine aviation and everything in a single network, with mutual data transfer up to the control center. Plus bottom FOSS, where there is.

                        Do not be fooled by separate systems.
                      7. 0
                        28 October 2019 21: 59
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        Yes, the usual Dawn to expand the band in the low frequency range and here you are happy.
                        Thank you for your sincere reply Alexander. Just intuitively, I assumed that this was probably one of the problems ...

                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        Now the GAS is not so fundamental, anyway the boat hears further - always.
                        Well, nobody argues here. I just wanted to know, albeit bitter, but the truth.

                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        Do not be fooled by separate systems.
                        Unfortunately, but often - "the devil is in the details", as they say ...
        3. 0
          18 October 2019 22: 57
          And what is better for relatively small ships - "Caliber" in the PLO version or "Medvedka"?
          In theory, Medvedka can fit into a smaller ship, because it is more compact and lighter, at least PU. Purely mechanically, "Medvedka" can be stuck on 1124 without alterations (for example, instead of TA onboard).
          1. 0
            18 October 2019 22: 59
            This is about what we are talking about. Since "Caliber" cannot be put on everything, and it is more expensive.
          2. 0
            19 October 2019 10: 56
            IMHO, it is worth considering the option of a "war by subscription": instead of several corvettes, build a frigate or destroyer (without compromises caused by lack of space on the ship or the ratio of the ship's rank and its cost) and several "PLO boats" BMZ (autonomy - 10 days), equipped search means for submarines, communication equipment and AK-630 (to show that this is a combat ship), operating within the range of the zone air defense of the freagate. Moreover, it makes sense to think which is better: one PLO boat with a steep GAS or a couple, but cheaper with PLO means. In case of detection of submarine signals, information is transmitted to the frigate for additional. analysis and, if it is decided that this is an enemy submarine, a PLO Caliber is launched on it (fortunately, the range is long). It is clear that the scheme is only suitable for our bastions, but the solution of ASW missions by corvettes on a long voyage also raises doubts, i.e. corvettes will effectively guard only the same bastions.
    3. 0
      21 October 2019 20: 59
      And again, for large-scale (conditionally) construction of the same frigates, appropriate capacities, infrastructure and ... money, 45% of which comes from the sale of hydrocarbons (most of them to Europe), are needed.
  5. +3
    18 October 2019 08: 16
    Quote: Aerodrome
    Baltic - line Gulf of Finland - Kaliningrad region. Ensuring dominance in the Gulf of Finland and the possibility of a complete blockade of the former Soviet republics of the Baltic States should be guaranteed.
    however ... it only seems to me. that in the case of active DB, the situation in the Baltic will be exactly the opposite, and our fleet will be "locked"?

    Yes, there generally no fleet can fully operate! This is ce la vie. The means of attack are so effective and long-range that nothing can walk in this "puddle" in any way ... in a global conflict, of course.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. +1
        18 October 2019 11: 56
        Quote from rudolf
        Why?

        And they don’t go to the VO site ..... they read it b, or they just finally made it, or they got rid of those horror stories that their media stuffed them with!
        Any result is better than no result.
      2. -1
        21 October 2019 21: 05
        They remember the story and are afraid of its repetition, hearing from senior officials and military jokes on the topic “how many days will we capture the Baltic States”. Obviously, joining NATO is dictated by the desire to avoid such a scenario, making its price unacceptable.
        Here, in the comments, words about the occupation, as a self-evident step, have already been heard many times.
  6. The comment was deleted.
    1. +1
      21 October 2019 21: 08
      And again: goals and objectives should be tied to the possibilities (and needs) of the economy, industry.
      1. The comment was deleted.
  7. -7
    18 October 2019 09: 56
    VO administration - return the opportunity to put cons on articles.

    The bastions in the waters of the Barents and Okhotsk Seas are the vicious practice of Admiral Gorshkov, who, with his many years of adventure, drove the strategic forces of the Russian fleet into two traps, where the SSBNs with ballistic missiles and the ICAPLs covering them became boys for beating from the enemy nuclear submarines (which were an order of magnitude less noisy), as well as for various types of remote-controlled SLBMs launched from compact areas with previously known coordinates:
    - a counter-force strike by monoblock warheads of American megaton-class ICBMs with the aim of incapacitating Russian SSBNs with a hydraulic shock from underwater nuclear explosions;
    - blocking aerial nuclear explosions over the bastion;
    - the currently added ability to intercept SLBMs on the active part of the trajectory with the help of SM-3 anti-missiles deployed on numerous US destroyers.

    The last, quite predictable factor, became killer for the very idea of ​​building domestic naval carriers of strategic missiles, which are then concentrated in the sea in small areas with known coordinates. Unlike SLBMs, the active sections of the trajectory of most Russian ICBM-based locations are out of reach of any US-based missile defense.

    As for the construction of the Russian, and not the Soviet, fleet, which miserably lost the post-war confrontation with the enemy, since it only copied its types of strategic weapons in the absence of funds from the country for the development of a coastal base and full-scale surface forces - the domestic fleet only needs coastal cover forces zones (Su-35, S-400, MRBM and ZGRLS), a small number of escort forces (URO corvettes with universal silos) and a large mosquito submarine fleet (NPA Poseidon and MCSAPL Laika).

    A mosquito submarine fleet of several hundred 40-ton airbags with 100-MT warheads and 1000-ton ICAPLs with medium-range hypersonic missiles will solve two problems:
    - nuclear destruction of any single country and all countries together by creating a continuous zone of destruction and radioactive contamination in coastal areas up to 400 km deep;
    - remote (at a distance of 500-1000 km) incapacitation of the enemy carrier and ship groupings in any region of the World Ocean according to noise detection and external target designation from the satellite constellation and ZGRLS.

    The Russian Navy does not need to trail behind the U.S. military-technical development or duplicate decisions in the field of ICBMs, but to widen the gap in the sphere where unique domestic competencies have been gained (nuclear reactors with liquid metal carriers and three-stage thermonuclear charges of unlimited power).

    Such an approach to building a fleet for reasonable means will ensure Russia’s military supremacy in the oceans, and not a dead defense for the huge funds into which the fleet has been trying to drive the last 75 years.
    1. +4
      18 October 2019 10: 15
      VO administration - return the opportunity to put cons on articles.
      Thanks to the VO administration for the opportunity to put the cons inadequate comments! laughing
    2. +2
      18 October 2019 12: 02
      Quote: Operator
      - a counter-force strike by monoblock warheads of American megaton-class ICBMs with the aim of incapacitating Russian SSBNs with a hydraulic shock from underwater nuclear explosions;

      What is the submarine nuclear explosion with a power of 1 Mt?
      Quote: Operator
      The last, quite predictable factor, became killer for the very idea of ​​building domestic naval carriers of strategic missiles, which are then concentrated in the sea in small areas with known coordinates.

      The "small area" for the SSBN KSF is all the Barents, Pechora and Kara seas. smile
      Quote: Operator
      A mosquito submarine fleet of several hundred 40-ton airbags with 100-MT warheads and 1000-ton ICAPLs with medium-range hypersonic missiles will solve two problems:

      If this fleet reaches the launch / detonation range. The enemy will not even have to invent anything - just to revive at a new technical level the anti-aircraft missile system of the Cold War, which by the 80s did not allow our nuclear submarines to freely enter the Atlantic.
      1. +4
        18 October 2019 12: 24
        Quote: Alexey RA
        What is the submarine nuclear explosion with a power of 1 Mt?

        what And the Operator, in all seriousness, wrote? Damn, but I took it at face value, not really!
        1. +5
          18 October 2019 14: 27
          He is serious. Surprisingly.
          1. +4
            18 October 2019 14: 57
            Do you think?
            1. +2
              18 October 2019 15: 07
              I am absolutely convinced of this.

              Andrei even rents an account with us for children who have promoted this project on all public platforms from atomic forums to all kinds of ship hangouts.

              He is a fan of Poseidon. He has the last two articles in a row - the praise of Poseidon, though he did not write them himself.))
      2. -2
        18 October 2019 12: 46
        The underwater explosion by the square-nested method of 200 megaton monoblocks "Minutemans" is sufficient to disable the submarine in the water area of ​​20 thousand square kilometers, the explosion of 400 monoblocks - twice 20 thousand km, respectively.

        And what Soviet surface forces were supposed to cover the SSBN bastions in the Pechora and Kara Seas - in one face of the nuclear-powered icebreaker "Lenin"? laughing

        The capabilities of the US anti-aircraft missile system during the Cold War were limited only to the detection of Soviet "roaring cows" of the 1970s. Ten years later, the United States curtailed its ASW system, since it turned out to be absolutely useless for detecting the next generation of Soviet SSNS (when moving at a speed of 5-10 knots, of course). Currently, tests of the Russian strategic UUV are underway, the level of physical fields of which at the same speed is two orders of magnitude lower than the SSNS, and the development of a low-tonnage SSA of the "Lira" / "Laika" type with the level of physical fields an order of magnitude lower than today's SSNS. So forget about such a thing as "the US anti-aircraft warfare system during the Cold War" at any level.
        1. +3
          18 October 2019 12: 54
          Quote: Operator
          The underwater explosion by the square-nested method of 200 megaton monoblocks "Minutemans" is sufficient to disable the submarine in the water area of ​​20 thousand square kilometers, the explosion of 400 monoblocks - twice 20 thousand km, respectively.

          Area of ​​the Barents, Pechora and Kara Seas 2,4 million sq. km
          Yes, by the way, the terrible looking figure of 20 thousand square kilometers is just a 200x100 km section. smile
          Quote: Operator
          The capabilities of the US anti-aircraft missile system during the Cold War were limited only to the detection of Soviet "roaring cows" of the 1970s.

          And the men didn’t know. And why then at the KSF were they looking for new ways to go around the Faroe-Icelandic border?
          1. -3
            18 October 2019 13: 24
            The bastions in the Pechora and Kara Seas are a spheroconic horse in a vacuum. The bastions were listed only in the Barents and Okhotsk Seas, and even then in the summer, because with the advent of ice cover they became available for American strike nuclear submarines. And the area of ​​the bastions is not measured by the total area of ​​the sea, but by the surface cover area of ​​the surface surface / air forces of the PLO, suddenly.

            Nobody was looking for any rounds of the Faroe-Icelandic boundary of the NATO PLO - the Soviet ICAPLs used Soviet commercial ships to go on combat duty in peacetime, under the keel of which they could freely go into the deep-sea areas of the Atlantic Ocean, where there were no PLO borders, and there was a long coastal SOSUS was limited to the shelf zone of the coast of North America and the Atlantic sound channel (it is also the Gulf Stream zone - see map).

            PS The single rounds of domestic ICAPLs of the Faroe-Icelandic border along the shallow strait between Canada and Greenland (clogged to the very bottom with icebergs and elementarily blocked by the simplest means of noise suppression) were nothing more than advertising show-offs of potters with hype in the press and the actual discharge of information about the potential opponent ICAPL.
            1. +3
              18 October 2019 14: 43
              Quote: Operator
              Nobody was looking for any rounds of the Faroe-Icelandic boundary of the NATO PLO - the Soviet ICAPLs used Soviet commercial ships to go on combat duty in peacetime, under whose keel it was possible to freely go into the deep-sea areas of the Atlantic Ocean

              In wartime and pre-war time, we will also force the boundary of anti-aircraft defense under the guise of civilian courts?
              1. +1
                18 October 2019 15: 26
                In the pre-war period, all Poseidons and Laiki will be withdrawn to the boundaries of the shelf of potential adversaries.

                Attempt to prevent = the onset of the war period.
                1. 0
                  18 October 2019 19: 21
                  How do you know that? Did Putin tell you? laughing
              2. 0
                18 October 2019 19: 24
                Yes, he drives, the Americans learned the selection of acoustics. signal to do back in the beginning of the 80's, usually getting out from under the trading scandal the crew of the submarine at the ascent could easily see Orion overhead.
      3. +1
        18 October 2019 14: 15
        "The Cold War, which by the 80s did not allow our nuclear submarines to enter the Atlantic freely." Tell these submariners these tales
        1. 0
          22 October 2019 11: 13
          Good movie.
          But cartoons are better.
          Remember the Battle of Kulikovo, the Battle of the Ice and Kuzkin’s mother.
    3. +3
      18 October 2019 12: 22
      Quote: Operator
      practice of admiral Gorshkov

      what Hmm ... yesterday he was a political officer, and today he is an admiral! Georgievich is growing by leaps and bounds!
      Quote: Operator
      Bastions in the waters of the Barents and Okhotsk seas are a vicious practice

      But this I support! Bastions should be near California and with a mandatory descent to the beach !!!
      Quote: Operator
      blocking aerial nuclear explosions over the bastion;

      Masterpiece good let me kiss you feel
      Quote: Operator
      the construction of the Russian, not the Soviet fleet, which miserably lost the post-war confrontation with the enemy

      belay Oh, I missed a couple in my life .... and when did I lose?
      Quote: Operator
      nuclear destruction of any single country and all countries together by creating a continuous zone of destruction and radioactive contamination in coastal areas up to 400 km deep;

      stop STOP! Have you agreed with the greens?
      Quote: Operator
      A similar approach to building a fleet at reasonable cost It will provide Russia with military dominance in the oceans, and not deaf defense for the huge funds into which the fleet has been trying to drive the past 75 years.

      And reasonable means, it is lop ... well, if not a secret?
      P.S. No, well, why, really so the kid did the sea doctrine! good crying
    4. +2
      18 October 2019 14: 14
      The bastions in the waters of the Barents and Okhotsk Seas are the vicious practice of Admiral Gorshkov, who, with his many years of adventure, drove the strategic forces of the Russian fleet into two traps, where the SSBNs with ballistic missiles and the ICAPLs covering them became boys for beating from the enemy nuclear submarines (which were an order of magnitude less noisy)


      You missed the previous part of the series, there it was about it. It is necessary to leave Bast ions, but this process cannot be instantaneous. Until the Navy has gained the opportunity to ensure the deployment of strategic nuclear forces in the ocean, dominance in the bastions will be quite relevant. And after that, communications critical for Russia pass through them, so nothing will change much.

      As for the rest, there you need a higher medical education, I do not have it, so I can not comment.
      1. -2
        18 October 2019 15: 01
        If the bets are so raised smile - to the level of higher medical education, then I would modestly, and without it, would notice that there is no need to confuse goals. Politicians and strategists need to think about peace and cooperation, especially if we are talking about Western civilization, of which we are a part (culturally, and mostly ethnically), and not about a world war, especially with it. The latter is a dead end. Firstly - we will probably be smashed, Secondly - it just DOESN'T. Therefore, if there is an opportunity to "leave the bastions," politicians and strategists will have to think three times - is it necessary, and will it increase the country's security? In general, security must be ensured by politics and cooperation, trade, cultural and human ties, and not only tanks and missiles. Something like this.
        1. +2
          18 October 2019 15: 19
          The US is actively building up its potential for a first strike, to the detriment of deterrence. That is, their nuclear arsenal loses its effectiveness as a means of deterrence, and sharply adds as a means of first strike.

          Why they do this they don’t explain.

          In such circumstances, your arguments are past the cash register, and very much by.
          1. 0
            18 October 2019 17: 10
            About the cashier is not for me. This is for paid trolls. About "first strike" - nonsense. And there is no need for paranoia. We remember about medicine.
            1. 0
              18 October 2019 18: 50
              Do you read English?
              1. 0
                18 October 2019 19: 07
                Why are you interested in?
                1. 0
                  18 October 2019 19: 19
                  I wanted to give you a read about the potential of the first blow and the root cause of paranoia. From American comrades, so to speak. Well, or unfriendly, someone like that.

                  So read?
                  1. 0
                    18 October 2019 19: 35
                    I am reading. But do not flatter yourself that I will find time to read at all, and after reading it I will immediately be imbued with an irresistible desire to measure them with missiles. How is it here, on this site, and you, too, are no exception, although your articles are interesting, they dream to measure themselves with missiles, there are also those who like to dream and pee (with an emphasis on "a", or even on "and" sometimes smile ).
                    1. 0
                      18 October 2019 20: 07
                      https://fas.org/blogs/security/2017/03/super-fuze/

                      I hope the Federation of American Scientists is a serious enough source for you?

                      “As a consequence, the US submarine force today is much more capable than it was previously against hardened targets such as Russian ICBM silos. A decade ago, only about 20 percent of US submarine warheads had hard-target kill capability; today they all do. ”

                      The new article builds on previous work by Ted Postol and myself but with new analysis explaining how the super-fuze works.

                      In the article we conclude that the SSBN force, rather than simply being a stable retaliatory capability, with the new super-fuze increasingly will be seen as a front-line, first-strike weapon that is likely to further fuel trigger-happy, worst-case planning in other nuclear-armed states.


                      I hope you didn’t need a dictionary.
                      1. 0
                        18 October 2019 21: 31
                        Did not live up to expectations. smile Thought silos - this is a silo, but did not fit the context. laughing It turned out - the bunker.
                        The Federation of American Scientists is unknown to me. Well, God bless her.

                        You quoted without context. The original article referenced from this site says that the destruction of bunkers is not news for the Russians, but in the general context of what is happening (in particular, the development of Aegis, which is unlikely to intercept something, but gives the Russians the impression that intercept) this may entail the transfer of responsibility in Russia for missile launches to lower levels, or reduce the time for making a decision at the highest level, which will increase the likelihood of accidental launches, and this is not in the interests of the United States, therefore, activities to improve fuses (about which the article) looks weird. Moreover, the authors cannot imagine a situation in which the American president will give the order for the first strike on Russia or China.

                        Many possible ways of pre-delegating authority are possible, but none of them are free of dangers that could increase the chances of accidents that could ultimately result in the mistaken launch of Russian nuclear forces. Forcing this situation upon the Russian government seems likely to be detrimental to the security interests of the United States and its Western allies.

                        We cannot foresee a situation in which a competent and properly informed US president would order a surprise first strike against Russia or China. But our conclusion makes the increased sea-based offensive and defensive capabilities we have described seem all the more bizarre as a strategy for reducing the chances of nuclear war with either Russia or China.

                        So, as a result, how did this article lead you to believe that "their nuclear arsenal is losing its effectiveness as a deterrent, and sharply increasing as a first strike."
                        And I didn’t understand, you are against my thesis that “if there is an opportunity to“ leave the bastions ”, politicians and strategists will have to think three times - is it necessary, and will it increase the country's security”?
                      2. 0
                        19 October 2019 00: 03
                        Quote: Falcon5555
                        The Federation of American Scientists is unknown to me.

                        In "The Golden Calf" there is such a character, a rebusnik Sinitsky. He composes politically illiterate charades.

                        So, professional good people who are in the West with a slide have long been struggling with global warming and / or white male suprematism. But the most mossy, the most furry and hopeless continue to defend the world from the Pentagon hawks that hold the sclerotic finger on the trigger of the war.
                      3. 0
                        19 October 2019 09: 06
                        So, as a result, how did this article lead you to believe that "their nuclear arsenal is losing its effectiveness as a deterrent, and sharply increasing as a first strike."


                        Because it describes technical issues that you personally were unable to understand. The authors do not believe that the President of the United States can order a preemptive strike, this is true.

                        But the questions of their faith do not interest me, it suffices that he has the technical ability to do this. And they do not deny it.

                        As it leaves the bastions, it is very simple, now 80% of the time our missile submarine has an American torpedo submarine on its tail. Given the inclusion of US SSBNs in the CC capable of delivering a first strike, this gives them the opportunity to inflict one while providing covert training.

                        The dispersal of the strategic nuclear forces will deprive them of this opportunity, technically.
                      4. 0
                        19 October 2019 16: 29
                        Because it describes technical issues that you personally were unable to understand.
                        Again did not live up to expectations, ay-ay-ay. No, well, your articles are certainly interesting, but this style of discussion of interest is not interesting. The correct moderator of a lively discussion would stop it at that, making a personal comment to you about the unacceptability of personal attacks. Perhaps I will also complete it, having noticed in the end that I got the impression that you not only did not understand this article, but did not read it before I pointed out that the original article was not on the site you pointed to, It’s available via a link from this site, and the site has only an annotation, which does not fully reflect the meaning of the article. Meanwhile, to read this article would be interesting to everyone who reflects on these topics.
                        I suspect that you have problems with English. Your persistent inquiries about it, whether I read on it speak about it. Apparently you do not understand the absurdity of these questions, because you probably are not aware that today any educated person can read the text in English, which leads to sad thoughts about the level of your education. what
                        About everything else is no longer interesting to discuss. All these speculations about 80 percent are uninteresting. They "hang" in the bastions, but they will not be outside the bastions. Enough nonsense! Not interested.
                        The possibility of a first strike has always been, and the accuracy of missiles has increased earlier, and will continue to increase in the future. Attributing colossal importance to a small technical improvement is ridiculous. By the way, I doubt that you understood what it was all about. The authors obviously exaggerate the significance of this modernization.
                        In general, the time from detecting a missile attack to defeat is still extremely short (by the way, you are sure that you have read and understood this article), and most mines will be destroyed in any case, and certainly before the return launch.
                        Your thoughts on Pearl Harbor and Port Arthur in the post below are equally ridiculous, and by the way, they are combined with personal attacks again, and it is also not interesting to discuss them.
                        Arevoir.
        2. -1
          18 October 2019 15: 55
          Si vis pacem, para bellum (if you want peace - get ready for war).
          1. 0
            18 October 2019 17: 13
            The paradoxical old thesis, in its literal sense, is certainly false. If you want war, get ready for war. If you want peace, but still get ready for war: bullshit! Everything is a little more complicated.
            1. 0
              22 October 2019 05: 48
              No, it's simple - in the world of predators, the inability to protect oneself leads to becoming a victim.
      2. 0
        22 October 2019 11: 17
        The theory of air defense missiles appeared around 1982-85. The turning point was the British K-219. Then we realized that there is nothing to catch in the ocean, at least 667 AU, B.
        And Gorshkov acted according to the situation. Do not hide the facts - the boats "quietly" could not go to the BS.
    5. 0
      18 October 2019 14: 17
      ZGRLS is, long-range electronic warfare systems up to 5000 kilometers are, with 400 there are, but the 35th Sushki and BRRS are unfortunately not there.
    6. 0
      18 October 2019 14: 38
      - nuclear destruction of any single country and all countries together by creating a continuous zone of destruction and radioactive contamination in coastal areas up to 400 km deep;

      And then this radioactive infection by the currents (Gulfstim, for example) will endure to Russia (in spite of frostbitten ears), and it will spread it all over the world. Vapors will lead to radioactive fallout, even in land-based countries. Everything will be for ... the filter erases the correct word, the synonym is downloaded. Talking about it alone can turn Russia into an outcast of the whole world. By the way, there is an international convention prohibiting methods of military operations, the purpose of which is to cause irreparable damage to nature. And even without a convention it is clear that this is impossible.
      1. 0
        18 October 2019 18: 54
        The United States put all these international conventions from a high bell tower.
        1. 0
          22 October 2019 11: 18
          So far, Russia has put on contracts. List you on which?
  8. +2
    18 October 2019 11: 07
    Honestly, the proposed fleet development strategy perfectly serves the basic concept of the United States and NATO - defeating the enemy in parts due to his passive defense. This is exactly what happened at the entrance of the last war in Iraq.
    If our fleet cannot critically threaten targets in the United States and its maritime communications, then it is useless. The enemy does not plan strategic landing operations in the areas of potential dominance of our Navy in connection with the sufficient vulnerability of the Russian Federation on ground theater. The main role of the US Navy and its allies is to ensure shipping during the war.
    Thus, the actions of our fleet during the war should ensure the conduct of one, but decisive, strategic operation to capture the Scandinavian Peninsula with the dropping of all that exerts the slightest resistance or disobedience to the North Sea. Then, by extending the zone of domination to the straits leading to the Atlantic Ocean, NATO could indeed inflict unacceptable damage.
    In this case, Syria, Venezuela and even Cuba are likely to be lost, but should provide the opportunity to deliver a preemptive sensitive strike. Do not get involved in protracted battles for the Kaliningrad region, weakening the direction of the main blow. Although, if there is a painless possibility of eliminating the Baltic bridgehead of NATO as soon as possible, followed by an attack on Scandinavia from the South, then it is worthwhile to take care of the appropriate provision of the fleet in the theater of operations.
    1. +2
      18 October 2019 11: 56
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      If our fleet cannot critically threaten targets in the United States and its maritime communications, then it is useless.

      In general, the author finds it necessary to take active steps in "step 3". It is logical that this pyramid, at the tip of which is the "threat to US communications" is based on the foundation of our dominance in the "bastions." Without securing dominance in the "bastions", it is extremely difficult to think about creating a threat to the enemy in the far zone. Our enemy at sea is deliberately and unattainably stronger than us, can we count on causing significant damage to him in the far zone? Having neither bases nor means of support? Doubtful. And we can quite cover our bank. And starting from this, apply injections on the distant approaches, but only just injections. To enter the ocean on a large scale in a general battle with the NATO fleet, we need to have a "slightly" different economic power even before the war. At least like China.
      1. -1
        18 October 2019 12: 58
        We really have nothing to cover.
        In the event of a global conflict without the use of strategic nuclear weapons (the analogy is the practical non-use of explosives in World War II), the enemy will act from bridgeheads in the Baltic states, Ukraine, and Transcaucasia. In the near future, the inclusion of Belarus in the chain of advanced deployment of NATO is possible. In the North, the enemy will not land a strategic landing due to the lack of goals, communications and support.
        Using the cannon fodder of the former countries of the Socialist camp and the former Soviet republics, supporting them with supplies and ensuring air superiority, the enemy intends to impose on us an unacceptable exchange, seize the initiative and inflict a decisive defeat (implement "Barbarossa-2").
        In this situation, Russia cannot afford to continue to live on dreams of a march to Lamansh, but must solve the problem of disrupting enemy operations by ensuring strategic aviation and submarines enter the Atlantic, which is ensured by the tough occupation of Finland, Sweden and Norway with deployment in occupied territories as strike forces and cover forces.
        1. +4
          18 October 2019 13: 24
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          this is ensured by the tough occupation of Finland, Sweden and Norway with the deployment of both strike forces and covering forces in the occupied territory.

          Given the terrain, I think the whole army of the Russian Federation will mess around there for a couple of years and, as a result, most likely will not win a convincing and unambiguous victory. Capturing forests, fjords, and other stones and logs very valuable militarily is a dumb task. But it is possible to prevent the full use of coastal military facilities in this territory. To do this, you need a powerful grouping primarily aviation.
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          We really have nothing to cover.

          Come on. Having destroyed the strategic nuclear forces in the North and the Pacific Ocean with conventional weapons, the enemy may well further count on "continuation of the banquet" in the more developed regions to the south. Why be afraid? Vaterland will be safe in any case, and this is the main thing. Russia is then reduced to the level of Yugoslavia or Iraq. And there already where and how to land troops - the business of the enemy's wishes.
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          In the North, the enemy will not land a strategic landing due to a lack of targets
          Why not? If the forces of our fleet are neutralized. Goal? To exclude the use of ports and communications in the north, after which the possibility of advancement of ground forces to Moscow from above opens up. Let it be some Poles, or some other second-rate young Europeans - no difference. The main thing is to ignore such a threat will be impossible. The landing may not be strategic, it may even be distracting or false, but it will affect the possible scenario of military operations in central Europe for sure.
          1. 0
            18 October 2019 14: 04
            Thank you for your constructive criticism, Alexey !.
            Essentially:
            "We have nothing to defend" - this does not mean covering the bases, but the territory. Not inhabited, without transport communications. The landing sites for the development of the operation - Arkhangelsk, Yamal can be reliably covered, and the presence of aviation bases in the Arctic makes any landing an adventure. so that the enemy remains raids and sabotage.
            Tough occupation is not patrols at all intersections. and the occupation of key bases and the provision of their own communications (in fact, this was how Norway was occupied in 1940). Plus, fierce control over energy and food supply facilities and transport (which is why it will be necessary to occupy Finland and Sweden). Without food - you won’t fight, without transport - you won’t attack, you won’t run away!
            Moscow, as the goal of the war, is a fetish. this caught Napoleon and Hitler. The path to it is a series of cruel exchanges of territories and losses. Of course, the enemy will act more inventively than in the past, but still the offensive on the southern and northern flanks is much more dangerous. That is why it is necessary to forestall the enemy in the North. And the office-financial superbubble in the center of Russia is being eliminated by cutting communications.
            1. -2
              18 October 2019 19: 06
              "And the office and financial superbubble in the center of Russia is being liquidated by cutting off communications." This superbubble in the center accounts for 30% of Russia's total GDP in all spheres of industry and trade.
          2. 0
            18 October 2019 14: 31
            "By destroying the strategic nuclear forces in the North and the Pacific with conventional weapons." And for those who tried to destroy our components of strategic nuclear forces with conventional weapons - Russia will deliver a nuclear retaliatory strike with the help of tactical or strategic cruise missiles and ICBMs - early warning systems and communication with all components of the Strategic Missile Forces is now online 24 hours a day.
            1. 0
              18 October 2019 14: 37
              Quote: Vadim237
              And for those who tried to destroy our strategic nuclear forces components with conventional weapons, Russia will strike a nuclear strike with tactical or strategic cruise missiles

              Before the one who will make a decision on the answer, there will be a question about the main thing - "has it already begun, or can it still be resolved without pressing a button?" And this is a very difficult question. There is essentially no answer to it. If an early warning missile system detects a mass launch of enemy ICBMs, then such an issue will not be on the agenda - we definitely press the button. And if, for example, we suddenly lost contact with a pair of SSBNs? Maybe it's an accident. Maybe this is a failure in the data transmission system. Maybe this is a mistake in the management links. Or maybe the beginning of the attack. So already press the button or not?
              1. -1
                18 October 2019 18: 59
                If two are gone - this is a serious reason to think, a data transmission failure in such systems was initially ruled out because the data transmission systems were combined, during an attack the crew will have time to send information that the distress signal was also attacked.
                1. 0
                  18 October 2019 19: 45
                  Our SSBNs do not have the ability to record a signal about an attack from the enemy in the buoy and send it to the top.
                  1. 0
                    18 October 2019 19: 59
                    You are so sure of this - the SSBN must somehow convey that it was attacked or that something happened to it - all the same, a component of the strategic nuclear forces, in Borya it could very well be realized.
                    1. 0
                      18 October 2019 21: 22
                      No. Not implemented. An emergency buoy, capable of automatically sending a message about the death of a submarine, has been needed for a long time. The same amers have it.
                      But we don’t have it yet, so the SSBN’s failure to communicate = uncertainty.
                      1. 0
                        19 October 2019 13: 04
                        "No. Not implemented." Where did you get this - or did you design and build Boreas?
                      2. 0
                        19 October 2019 19: 12
                        I know how Boreev users want such a thing. Probably, if they had, then they would not want to.
                      3. +1
                        22 October 2019 11: 20
                        Alexander, leave the "specialist" alone. He knows everything without you. laughing
                      4. 0
                        22 October 2019 13: 04
                        Perhaps that’s true.
                2. 0
                  18 October 2019 22: 46
                  Quote: Vadim237
                  If two are gone - this is a serious reason to think

                  That is the problem. While we think everything can end very sadly for us and without any nuclear weapons. But in order to think it was not necessary and it is necessary to ensure the protection of their strategic nuclear forces with conventional weapons.
                  Quote: Vadim237
                  data transmission failure in such systems is initially excluded since data transmission systems are combined

                  It is possible, even to the limit of automated SPRN, false commands for a return start in the last 25 years have passed at least three times. And they were manually rejected.
        2. 0
          18 October 2019 14: 19
          And what is his bridgehead there in Transcaucasia?
          1. +1
            19 October 2019 00: 42
            Quote: Vadim237
            What is his bridgehead there in Transcaucasia?

            In fact, if suddenly the former partners decide to aggravate, then there are a lot of mechanisms. In particular
            1. Brutally resolved issues in all places where the contingents of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation are not covered by anything, or where there are none at all (there are none in half of Africa). Syria, Moldova, Armenia, etc.
            2. All the republics of people's democracy are cut to the root, there are 4 of them along the borders of Russia. At the same time, the governments of Ukraine and Georgia from all the irons broadcast in pure English that they have nothing to do with the dismantling of the activists there, and the explosive democratic processes taking place there do not control.
            3. Old Man is reoriented. Tanks of the aggressive NATO bloc near Smolensk.
            4. There are questions about the Kaliningrad region.
            5. Kazakhs are reoriented.
            6. The republics of people's democracy suddenly begin to resemble the Gaza Strip, with raids by sabotage groups through the fence and round-the-clock shelling by NURSs and tactical missiles, for example, Sochi and Rostov-on-Don.
            7. When trying to clarify the situation of any 58A, what is happening is declared aggression and, after crossing the border, is extinguished by the full force of conventional arms.

            Since everything happens outside the borders of the Russian Federation, the situation, even with the direct participation of partners, remains moderately safe from the point of view of the fallout. Actually, it differs little from Korea with Li Si Qing and volunteers. It is difficult to imagine a nuclear strike against the United States in response to the work of someone’s Grads from Abkhazia.
    2. +4
      18 October 2019 12: 12
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      If our fleet cannot critically threaten targets in the United States and its maritime communications, then it is useless.

      If our fleet cannot protect 40% of the warheads of our strategic nuclear forces, then it is even more useless.
      Moreover, this is not just 40%, but the very 40% that, in theory, should become the basis of a retaliatory strike - because the SSBN's secrecy and the extreme difficulty of determining their location should theoretically guarantee their survival in the event of an enemy’s first strike. It is the SSBNs that, with proper support for their actions, guarantee the inevitability of retaliation: even if the flight time is less than the time of making, passing and working out the launch decision for the Strategic Missile Forces, even if the silos are destroyed and the PGRK regiments are covered on the march - anyway recoil torment.
      So this is all we do not have now. The weapon of retaliation can be disabled at the bases, at the exit from the bases and in areas of combat duty - due to the lack of support forces. IWR has died, mine-sweeping forces have as many as 3 new minesweepers (and those lagging behind the enemy by a generation) in all fleets, multi-purpose submarines in the same Pacific Fleet - Adyn of pieces for all SSBNs.
      In such a situation, the adversary may well consider it possible to launch a successful disarming strike against our strategic nuclear forces, minimizing the potential of our retaliatory strike and thus putting an end to any war.
    3. +1
      18 October 2019 14: 15
      The bastions in the waters of the Barents and Okhotsk Seas are the vicious practice of Admiral Gorshkov, who, with his many years of adventure, drove the strategic forces of the Russian fleet into two traps, where the SSBNs with ballistic missiles and the ICAPLs covering them became boys for beating from the enemy nuclear submarines (which were an order of magnitude less noisy)


      An incorrect statement, the assignment of a zone of responsibility to the fleet (taking into account the forces in the DMiOZ, which in any case must be deployed in advance) does not prevent active offensive actions.
    4. -2
      18 October 2019 16: 17
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      The proposed fleet development strategy perfectly serves the basic concept of the USA and NATO - defeating the enemy in parts due to his passive defense. This is exactly what happened at the entrance of the last war in Iraq

      There will be no "passive defense" in the event of a global conflict. Read the Military Doctrine of the Russian Federation, everything is written in detail there.

      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      If our fleet cannot critically threaten targets in the United States and its maritime communications, then it is useless

      Underwater - too? So, maybe everything is on needles, so as not to suffer? wink

      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      In the event of a global conflict without the use of strategic nuclear weapons (the analogy is the practical non-use of explosives in World War II)

      "Without use" is a spherical horse. In a vacuum. Analogy ... rather weak, so to speak.

      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      office and financial superbubble in the center of Russia

      A marvelous characteristic for the Central Industrial (!!!) district, to some people.

      A lot of emotions, a little constructive ... buddy. Sit down two Yes
  9. 0
    18 October 2019 11: 13
    Strategically, everything is correctly laid out, at least in my amateurish opinion. But in practice, so far we can threaten a potential aggressor with firing him with a nuclear club at any trepidation, squeezing him strategically out of most of the indicated zones by the forces of the fleet, we are not yet able or able, but not sufficiently. An exception is the North and the Northern Sea Route due to their inaccessibility for the serious forces of the enemy’s fleets .. and even there they take out the brain and submarines and drink blood at a constant rate ..
    1. +2
      18 October 2019 12: 17
      Quote: KVU-NSVD
      But in practice, so far we can threaten a potential aggressor to fake him with a nuclear club at any trepidation

      The problem is that the marine nuclear club lies unguarded almost in front of the aggressor’s nose. And he can just chop her with an ax, while we decide whether to grab her or not. sad
      1. 0
        18 October 2019 12: 22
        I'm not talking specifically about a sea club, I meant its existentially - a generalized version laughing And so yes - to safely withdraw the missile carriers to the areas of military service without the danger of stumbling upon a flock of "red dogs" (c) smile Now the task is still that ..
        1. +3
          18 October 2019 13: 04
          Quote: KVU-NSVD
          I'm not talking specifically about a sea club, I meant its existentially - a generalized version

          I got what you mean. Just because of his tediousness, he wanted to clarify that we have four of these clubs: flying, floating, crawling and buried. smile
          1. 0
            19 October 2019 01: 21
            Quote: Alexey RA
            We have four of these clubs: flying, floating, crawling and buried

            The great American strategists in the person of Truman, Spaats and Eisenhower went back to the story with the clubs back in the 40s. It would seem that there is an answer to any question, but already in the 48th, suddenly Comrade. For some reason, Stalin was not afraid of the atomic bomb, and two years later - a new war, for Americans, it was comparable to the West European theater of WWII.

            So no, clubs only work for the elusive Джо Kim. If you want to trim - clubs will not help you. For 20 years, Americans have come to this idea, but still remember it well.
  10. 0
    18 October 2019 11: 17
    Thanks to the author for a really good article. I can only doubt the free passage of ships through the Turkish Straits and the really powerful grouping in the Mediterranean Sea - even in the best situation for us - the prospect is too distant. Even in the Baltic, one of the primary tasks is apparently to ensure the coastal flank and (initially) supply the Kaliningrad group of forces.
  11. +9
    18 October 2019 11: 55
    The author continues to develop the genre of marine militarization.
    Noteworthy are some creative twists.
    At present, approximately 2,2 million people live in the territories of Russia, which can be supplied on a significant scale only by sea and included in the national and global economy through maritime communications. This is much more than for example in Iceland.
    A very revealing example. And if you take not such a large country as Iceland, which has as many as 350 thousand people, but Antigua and Barbuda, then the example will look even more convincing.
    In addition, one of our main historical enemies, Great Britain, has a weak point there that they cannot help but defend - Gibraltar.
    Gibraltar - yes, to protect Gibraltar with two patrol boats and three inflatable boats, even if they are with a rigid hull, is very problematic. The question is - why should Britain protect it? Even the seizure of Gibraltar directly to Britain poses no threat. But Britain is a member of NATO, and the Strait of Gibraltar is international, so if there is a threat of shipping in this strait, groups from the Navy of France, Turkey, Italy, Spain and Portugal may be pulled into it, after which the raiding will quickly end.
    Firstly, the first and successful steps have been taken to break away Turkey from NATO.
    The author is like a sober-minded person and not a urapatriot. Does he really believe that Turkey will leave NATO and that Erdogan’s game in Selim I of Yavuz is for a long time?
    "... today, behind the back of the Navy, there is a full-fledged naval base in Syria, backed up by a base of the Aerospace Forces - we did not have such trump cards even during the Cold War."
    And what is its usefulness? It can only be fully supplied if there is a fleet, there is no fleet yet. And the existence of the country where this base is in question.
    Western European countries are critically dependent on gas supplies from Russia, and will not support the United States by force.
    Western European countries are neither critical nor critical dependent on gas supplies from Russia. The main factor in the presence of Russian gas in the European market is price. But the Russian economy depends critically on gas exports to Europe, so it’s not Europe that builds gas pipelines, but Russia, heroically overcoming all the obstacles, pulling pipes to Europe. And if the question arises globally, then Europe will replace Russian gas, but where will Russia get its gas?
    In general, the author has unearthed a gold mine, but he himself does not suspect it. His articles are an excellent scenario for a strategy game, you just need to invite good programmers and jointly create something like "War of the worlds in the deep sea". You can plug the creators of "tanks" in the belt.
    1. +1
      18 October 2019 13: 05
      I’m warmly adding about the strategy.
      About the replacement of fuel resources in Europe - it will be necessary to withdraw Middle Eastern resources from the game, then their only communication will be their transportation from the USA. True, the United States can completely ignore the needs of European industry by deploying its own and adjacent (Mexico, Canada) production, but the transportation problem is growing critically.
    2. +1
      18 October 2019 13: 15
      Quote: Undecim
      In general, the author has unearthed a gold mine, but he himself does not suspect it. His articles are an excellent scenario for a strategy game, you just need to invite good programmers and jointly create something like "War of the worlds in the deep sea". You can plug the creators of "tanks" in the belt.

      Everything has already been invented before us - the series "The operatonal art of war" from Talonsoft. smile
      1. +1
        18 October 2019 13: 21
        Does "The operatonal art of war" have combat scenarios at sea?
    3. +1
      18 October 2019 13: 34
      Western European countries are neither critical nor critical dependent on gas supplies from Russia. The main factor in the presence of Russian gas in the European market is price. But the Russian economy depends critically on gas exports to Europe, so it’s not Europe that builds gas pipelines, but Russia, heroically overcoming all the obstacles, pulling pipes to Europe. And if the question arises globally, then Europe will replace Russian gas, but where will Russia get its gas?

      And where do we put this gas? Any suggestions?
      1. 0
        19 October 2019 01: 52
        Quote: hohol95
        Any suggestions?

        Nowhere. Stop mining. Within the country, demand cannot be increased quickly, volumes cannot be transferred to Asia, there are two bast shoes on the map from "European" deposits to all the forces of Siberia.
    4. 0
      18 October 2019 14: 25
      A very revealing example. And if you take not such a large country as Iceland, which has as many as 350 thousand people, but Antigua and Barbuda, then the example will look even more convincing.


      Now this is jerking - what’s it for? To the fact that everyone there in Norilsk will die, what happened?

      The question is - why should Britain protect it? Even the seizure of Gibraltar directly to Britain poses no threat. But Britain is a member of NATO


      Well? We recall the 1973 year - the Americans were then absolutely sure that if they happened to hack with us because of the Middle Earth, this would be an American-Soviet brawl and NATO would stupidly stand aside. Why did you decide that it will be different now?
      And yes, why is there such a conviction that at least a show of strength at such an important point for the Britons will not lead to any action on their part?

      And what is its usefulness? It can only be fully supplied if there is a fleet, there is no fleet yet.


      As well as absolutely any base. But even without "full-fledged" supplies, it is possible to unload the wounded there, take fuel, and weld a hole. Let's not forget about Khmeimim and the Syrian Air Force. About air defense in the end. This position cannot be taken on a swoop; in order to take out Tartus, a very serious operation will be needed.

      And the existence of the country where this base is in question.


      No longer.

      Western European countries are neither critical nor critical dependent on gas supplies from Russia. The main factor in the presence of Russian gas in the European market is price.


      But it has no effect on the economy, right? That is, a one-time increase in costs for ALL percent on 5-6 will not lead to anything? In London, dozens of people freeze to death at home every winter if you are not in the know. So no one will play in the sharp increase in energy prices in Europe, the dependence is completely mutual.

      And if the question arises globally, then Europe will replace Russian gas, but where will Russia get its gas?


      Will I soon hear the beloved threat of all the pro-Western liberals - the embargo on Russian oil? laughing
      Worldwide?
      1. -1
        18 October 2019 17: 00
        To the fact that everyone there in Norilsk will die, what happened?
        Should that happen, Norilsk can be supplied through Dudinka.
        1. 0
          18 October 2019 18: 49
          Well, actually this is a seaport. On a completely vulnerable and easily cutable NSR.
          1. -1
            18 October 2019 21: 42
            In fact, from the beginning of June to the beginning of October, it is also a river port connected with Krasnoyarsk. Therefore, there is no question that "everyone will die" there. And if you tighten up with the icebreaker fleet of the "Taimyr" type, then you can navigate along the Yenisei and extend it. So the example with Norilsk is unfortunate.
            1. 0
              19 October 2019 09: 57
              It’s quite successful, according to the Yenisei, if it is possible to throw something, then the minimum of food and fuel for people, the economy will get a stake there without exporting through the Dudinka via the NSR,
              1. -1
                19 October 2019 10: 13
                So that the economy does not become a stake there, instead of fantasies about naval confrontations in the ice of the Arctic and in the ocean, one needs to take up the realities of developing infrastructure such as the transpolar railway.
                1. 0
                  19 October 2019 15: 05
                  While Americans are fantasizing about confrontations in the ice of the Arctic, we will also have to.

                  Or you have to find a way to wipe the United States off the face of the earth, despite all the risks of such an event.
                  1. -1
                    19 October 2019 15: 10
                    Or you have to find a way to wipe the United States off the face of the earth, despite all the risks of such an event.
                    This is from the repertoire of gray-skinned stallions in a state of delirium, because after that no one will need anything.
                    1. 0
                      19 October 2019 18: 58
                      Well, amers apparently have a different opinion on this subject, too.
        2. -1
          18 October 2019 23: 20
          Will I soon hear the beloved threat of all the pro-Western liberals - the embargo on Russian oil?
          Worldwide?

          Only notebook hamsters can believe in such stupidity, you should not dress in these clothes. A cow is milked while she is giving milk.
      2. -1
        18 October 2019 21: 46
        And yes, why is there such a conviction that at least a show of strength at such an important point for the Britons will not lead to any action on their part?

        Explain clearly why Gibraltar is important for the Britons. What parameters of the functioning of Great Britain are influenced by Gibraltar? What will change in Britain's life support when it is captured?
        1. 0
          19 October 2019 09: 58
          About the same as with the Falklands. News is possible for you, but among the serious reasons for war among the Anglo-Saxons, not only rational ones are considered serious.
          1. -1
            19 October 2019 10: 15
            Therefore, they keep in Gibraltar the most powerful navy compound consisting of two boats and three inflatable boats. Oh, these Angles with the Saxons. These tales are not boring?
            1. 0
              19 October 2019 19: 09
              I rely in my opinion on hundreds, if not thousands of documents, books and articles written by their military, listened to on the air with admirals, flag officers and politicians on resources such as Sea Control, but what are you talking about? For everyday communication with a couple of dozen people and a dozen trips to the pub? Well, I don’t deny that they are good guys by and large.

              Regarding boats - the forces for protecting Gibraltar must be held somewhere in Scapa Flow, and not in Gibraltar itself.
              1. -1
                19 October 2019 19: 36
                What are you doing? For everyday communication with a couple of dozen people and a dozen trips to the pub?
                Oh, this pride, she will not bring to good, she ruined Lucifer.
                I did not listen to the radio broadcasts of the British admirals, I did not happen. Therefore, what are they on the air, I can’t say. But in personal communication - normal people. I didn’t think of going to the pub with the admiral.
                1. 0
                  19 October 2019 19: 56
                  So I write - good guys, by and large.

                  As one comrade said, after a "business trip" to some I do not remember what NATO exercises in urban battles where he "worked" as an extra in the crowd and portrayed a peace man: "extremely nice and nice people will come to kill us."
                  1. -1
                    19 October 2019 20: 54
                    I participated in extras only in filming. But it’s better to fight with a pleasant and attractive opponent than with an unpleasant and unsympathetic one.
      3. -1
        18 October 2019 21: 53
        to take out Tartus will need a very serious operation on a scale.
        Yes, and no one will bear it. Out of stocks and without replenishment will be Port Arthur No. 2. Ships are drowned, crews are transported by aircraft.
        1. 0
          19 October 2019 09: 59
          This is only possible if you sit in Port Arthur.
          1. -1
            19 October 2019 10: 17
            You can not sit, you can go out. The question is whether they will let me go back. I think no.
            1. 0
              19 October 2019 19: 11
              Well, it’s already better. If they let me go back and if they have the strength not to let them go back and if after all that has happened there remains a desire not to let them go back and so on and so forth.
      4. -1
        18 October 2019 23: 18
        No longer.
        Not even funny. Of you uropatriot - no.
        1. 0
          19 October 2019 09: 58
          The funny thing is that this issue will be finally clarified no later than the end of next year. So far, everything is not in favor of the "questioners".
          1. -1
            19 October 2019 10: 18
            So at the end of next year and back to this issue.
      5. 0
        19 October 2019 02: 27
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        a demonstration of power at such an important point for the Britons will not lead to any action on their part?

        Will lead.
        Take the scruff of the richest Londoner A.B. Usmanova and how to shake. What's next?
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Do not forget about Hmeimim and Syrian Air Force

        About the Syrian Air Force is especially funny.
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        No longer.

        Do not overestimate the restructuring of the American, Turkish and Russian occupation zones, which occurred the other day. This has little to do with Syrian statehood.
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        costs FOR ALL 5-6 percent will not lead to anything?

        Of course not. Since it will not be. The gas price in Rotterdam has jumped 5 times over the past 4 years; this has not affected the euro inflation in any way.
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        London dozens of people freeze to death at home every winter if you are not in the know

        Heating problems in London are associated with antique English SanPiNs and 16th century coal / wood-burning houses. Beauty requires (human) sacrifice. Built according to modern Finnish standards, the house will not freeze at all without heating. House made of cardboard.
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        there will be no sharp increase in energy prices in Europe; the dependence is completely mutual.

        Energy prices in (Northern) Europe are directly set by the state through a system of excise taxes and taxes. It does not depend on the market price at all. Tighten the same excise tax, if desired, is a matter of a couple of days.
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        embargo on Russian oil?

        Firstly, if you did not notice, the rehearsal of such an embargo in the form of a stop of Friendship was just taking place. No one noticed.
        Secondly, over the past 10 years, the United States has more than doubled its oil production.
        Thirdly, now, for the first time since the 50s, the United States has been a net exporter of oil and petroleum products for the second week in a row.
        Fourth, the new export capacities planned for commissioning in the United States by the middle of next year are about 3 mb / d, which exactly corresponds to the volume of European exports of Russia.

        Oil demand is growing much slower than supply at the current price level. It seems someone is superfluous in this business.
    5. 0
      18 October 2019 14: 44
      The annual export of gas from Russia by $ 46 billion is not a very large figure compared to the total export of almost $ 500 billion. Along Europe, China needs gas, whose consumption is growing by 60 billion cubic meters every year.
      1. 0
        18 October 2019 20: 35
        Quote: Vadim237
        Along Europe, China needs gas, whose consumption is growing by 60 billion cubic meters every year.

        it grows while the world is a chewing gum friendship, when a crisis, then nobody will need such supplies.
      2. -2
        19 October 2019 02: 33
        Quote: Vadim237
        consumption grows by 60 billion cubic meters every year

        On the coast, which is tied to LNG. Nobody is going to pull a pipe from Siberia there.
        1. -1
          19 October 2019 13: 06
          They may not pull the pipe, but Russia will soon pull the LNG carriers.
    6. +1
      19 October 2019 01: 48
      Quote: Undecim
      Does he really believe that

      In fact, the oldfags know that our geopolitical brother Erdogan is the very Erdogan who did not get off with tomatoes. Worse, the old people already recall that he sent another Bush Jr. on foot on an erotic journey. back in 2003 with Iraq (yes, in 2003 it was already, which is typical). Actually, sending Americans is the first thing he did when he came to power, without any, excuse me, participation of the northeastern geopolitical brothers. Nevertheless, Turkey’s split from NATO was somehow delayed.
      Quote: Undecim
      And what is its usefulness?

      The base is even more condemned than the OPEC. They’ll be covered in general instantly, you don’t even need to investigate.
      Quote: Undecim
      Western European countries are critically dependent on gas supplies from Russia, and will not support the United States by force.

      The countries of Western Europe with great pleasure follow the course of France since De Gaulle. They stand behind the backs of American soldiers and tell them about morality, the primacy of French national interests and the reduction of military spending. But since Germany itself, unlike France, has no colonies, the same Bundeswehr generally turned into a social security.
      They will not support the United States by force, since they have no power.
      Quote: Undecim
      therefore, not Europe builds gas pipelines,

      Europe, a month ago, forbade Gazprom to use the capacities of its pipelines by more than 50% (the remaining capacities should be transferred to suppliers independent of Gazprom, where to get them, independent, Gazprom's problems). So not only does not build, but the tap slowly twists from that side.
  12. +1
    18 October 2019 12: 05
    There are many useful arguments in the article. Respect to the author. But in real life, for the next one or two decades, it will be good if it turns out to arrange really comprehensively protected zones with NO enemy access to the "Bastions". And to be sure that a third of the SSBN payroll (by default, the rest are under repair, at the berths) will be ready for DB at sea.
    1. +1
      18 October 2019 13: 02
      but a fleet of 41 yachts was built for Russian billionaires.
      1. -4
        18 October 2019 14: 35
        Probably these 41 yachts do not give you peace - envy?
        1. +2
          18 October 2019 20: 38
          Quote: Vadim237
          Probably these 41 yachts do not give you peace - envy?

          I am personally very pleased that people are creating thousands of jobs for destitute Europe and the starving USA! Patrons of the Komsomol and simply handsome!
          1. -2
            19 October 2019 13: 12
            Our construction of such large yachts are not involved - unless private offices and even those are engaged in trifles.
        2. 0
          18 October 2019 20: 48
          It’s ridiculous to talk about the fleet having a fleet of 41 yachts, of which many exceed 15000 tons of displacement.
          1. -3
            19 October 2019 13: 10
            The construction of these 41 yachts is not intertwined with the construction of the Russian Navy either in finance, in people, in materials, or in enterprises - and it’s not clear why you drag them here.
            1. 0
              20 October 2019 01: 16
              pulled in because these yachts were bought with money stolen in Russia.
  13. -2
    18 October 2019 18: 13
    And what are you guys ALWAYS fighting with the US AND NATO going? Do not you understand that Russia is not the USSR? What war will we lose? It is not necessary to breed dreams, but to look for ways of retreat if the enemy is stronger than us. It is necessary to discard tactics and try for you (military men) to develop at least on this site, in articles and comments, a strategy
    1. -5
      18 October 2019 19: 19
      Ways to retreat, when they did not even enter the battle, only cowards and wimps are looking. NATO still drowned those warriors in the frigate’s exercises, chased the signals of a broken buoy for the second two weeks, Poland has a really combat-ready army, Germany doesn’t even have enough possessions for military personnel, not to mention small arms about NATO aviation - most of the outdated stuff from the 80s started 90s, and even incapable.
      1. 0
        18 October 2019 23: 12
        Quote: Vadim237
        NATO still drowned those warriors in the frigate’s exercises, chased the signals of a broken buoy for the second two weeks, Poland has a really combat-ready army, Germany doesn’t even have enough possessions for military personnel, not to mention small arms about NATO aviation - most of the outdated stuff from the 80s started 90s, and even incapable.

        not even possessing a potential adversary, the body relaxes and goes to the smash.
        So the United States suffered before the invention of "world terrorism" and other "problems" in the form of the spread of Iraq, etc.
        in the presence of dangerous enemies and allergies, everything will be the other way around.
        Europe is just a pretty calm place with a high level of oxytocin ..
        1. -1
          19 October 2019 13: 14
          Judging by the fact that every year there are more and more: terrorist attacks, speeches and showdowns with visitors take place - I would not call Europe a peaceful place.
    2. +1
      18 October 2019 19: 48
      It's not just about the US and NATO. Here for the principles of tinder. Most likely, we still will not fight with the United States and NATO. But with pro-American suicide bombers with US support - that's right. But the principles of naval warfare do not change from this.

      And yes, we must not retreat, we must first beat, to death. if it comes to the worst option.
      1. 0
        18 October 2019 23: 28
        must be the first to beat, to death. if it comes to the worst option.

        When I read this, it was just on TV (a hundred thousandth time) a documentary about how the Japanese hit the first in the 41st and how it ended for them. Immediately after Pearl Harbor, their Japanese admiral realized that the thing smells of something bad like their hara-kiri. Beating first is usually a deliberately false idea.
        He was the first to hit even on the street, even in international relations - he received a short and certainly not significant tactical advantage, and already lost in the long run. Then - a court or an international tribunal, or sit down for a fight (hooliganism, etc. or start an aggressive war), even if you yourself were beaten as a result, or you pay damages to the victim, shame and all kinds of sanctions, or all at the same time.
        1. -1
          19 October 2019 02: 42
          Quote: Falcon5555
          their Japanese admiral realized that the thing smells of something bad like their hara-kiri.

          Their Japanese admiral Yamamoto studied in America and worked for several years at the embassy in Washington. He said long before the war that this was an adventure. That victory is possible only if the Americans do not want to fight. That is, the entire plan was entirely based on the American coward hypothesis. As soon as it became clear that the Americans would fight, everything went to hell right away.

          By the way. Somewhere I heard about cowards-Americans just recently. Many times.
        2. +1
          19 October 2019 10: 05
          Immediately after Pearl Harbor, their Japanese admiral realized that the thing smells of something bad like their hara-kiri. Beating first is usually a deliberately false idea.


          Do you study history on Wikipedia or what? Oh, the phrase Yamamoto about the sleeping giant could be remembered ...

          The first blow - REAL - is the only way to dramatically change the balance of power in your favor. The risks of such methods are obvious. But if a fight is inevitable, then there are no options left.

          As a counter-example to Prile Harbor - Port Arthur.

          What is not a successful first blow? You just need to do everything right and bring what you have started to the end.
  14. Eug
    0
    19 October 2019 09: 09
    The need to develop non-nuclear submarines with VNEU as a cheaper practically universal (except for air defense) means of "closing" access denial zones is clearly seen.
    1. 0
      19 October 2019 10: 06
      Or small atomic. But only with the support of aviation, without it, submarines in a modern war are very quickly destroyed.
      1. -2
        19 October 2019 13: 23
        It’s just in words - but in fact, all of this hyped foreign anti-aircraft defense equipment will not go far from the same Patriot super-SAM, as well as from the anti-torpedo protection program for the aircraft carrier, to which they lowered 750 millions and subsequently refused in view of low efficiency and this with their latest developments and technology in this area.
        1. 0
          19 October 2019 19: 16
          But in fact, talk to submariners on this subject, even in VO, it is full of them, including those who have risen to a level higher than the commander of the warhead on a submarine.
          1. -1
            19 October 2019 20: 02
            They vryatli about the effectiveness of foreign submarines that they will tell - since in reality no one had combat walkers and I hope that they never will.
            1. 0
              20 October 2019 19: 34
              https://topwar.ru/29604-rpksn-k-258-proekta-667au-bs-3-mart-may-1985-goda.html

              Any submarine campaign is combat.
        2. +1
          27 October 2019 16: 07
          Quote: Vadim237
          It’s just in words - but in fact, all of this proliferated foreign anti-aircraft defense equipment will not go far from the same Patriot super-SAM, as well as from the anti-torpedo protection program for the aircraft carrier, which they lowered 750 millions of and subsequently refused due to low efficiency

          1. Their PLO is effective (unlike us)
          2. According to PTZ, so that they have worked out they can overtake us in a couple of years
  15. +2
    19 October 2019 10: 14
    What is this? Is it finally a logical article about the fleet?))

    The question is posed completely correctly, but there are nuances with the answers.

    The fleet today from an economic point of view "does not pay off." The trillion dollars invested in it over 50 years will not return in any way in the form of profit from expansion, etc. And at a low cost, he now performs the minimum necessary functions.
    1. 0
      20 October 2019 20: 52
      And at a low cost, he now performs the minimum necessary functions.


      Only while no one counteracts
      1. 0
        21 October 2019 10: 54
        And this is the essence ...
  16. -1
    19 October 2019 14: 24
    I read the article. The feeling is that the author is going to fight by the methods of the past war. If the war between Russia and NATO, God forbid, take place, then it will be a full-scale war with the use of all the forces and assets accumulated during the time after the Second World War, including nuclear, bacteriological, chemical and other types of WMD. And we are talking about some kind of protection of communications in such a war. There is nothing and nobody will protect. If we are talking about local conflicts without the use of WMD, then the Russian Navy is now alas so weak that there can be no talk of any dominance on the Akiyan seas. Therefore, the whole article is the author’s reflections built on the sand.
    1. 0
      19 October 2019 20: 10
      They refused weapons of mass destruction - the weapons in the modern war are absolutely ineffective, since all military personnel have gas masks and RCBM troops have the same thing, with bacteriological the same action is too slow since all diseases have an incubation period and this weapon is dangerous for the users themselves.
    2. 0
      22 October 2019 17: 44
      Quote: gregor6549
      If the war between Russia and NATO, God forbid, take place, then it will be a full-scale war with the use of all the forces and assets accumulated during the time after the Second World War, including nuclear, bacteriological, chemical and other types of WMD.

      IMHO of course, but I do not think that everything is so bad. There are no complete idiots in NATO to untie such a total. Yes, and he is not needed today. Today, in the age of information technology, it’s enough to deprive the enemy of command and communication centers, because the same C400 division can be put out of action with just one missile, which successfully hit the right place ((((So no one will turn the earth into desert. At least initially, what then can it result in - no one knows.
  17. kig
    0
    20 October 2019 03: 05
    Wow! Does the General Staff know?
  18. 0
    21 October 2019 16: 54
    Quote: MainBeam
    Super series! Interesting to read!

    This is because adequate comments. Rarity on the forum. Even amazing!
  19. 0
    21 October 2019 20: 11
    The author forgets about the possibilities of economics and industry, in particular. Where (and how many years) will the “fleet for domination” be built and who will pay for it? Ambition should be matched by opportunities, in this case, the budget.
    The position is accepted that from the “other side” people are stupid, indecisive and lacking superiority both in the number of ships and in the possibilities of building new ones.
  20. 0
    21 October 2019 21: 17
    About the convoys from the Baltic to Venezuela: firstly, everything is changing, it may turn out that Maduro will lose power (including as a result of the intervention of neighbors) and there’s no need to sail so far; secondly, in the event of a conflict with the United States and its allies, there will be no talk of any convoys to South America (no one will “scatter” the ships, exposing them to the blow of superior forces).
  21. 0
    22 October 2019 11: 01
    that you must first establish dominance at sea in a given area for the required time ...
    And in the air? Dominance is to "knock out" SOSUS including that which is unrealistic.

    the Navy’s establishment of dominance in the areas through which the SSBN is deployed for military services, in which the military services themselves are held, and in which protected combat zones are located ...
    Not domination, but control. There will be no domination among the Americans, too large a square .. "Areas in the districts" ... somehow not quite right.
    These communications are critical to the existence of the Russian Federation in its current form ...
    Communication is the way of communication. It will be independent of the existence of Russia. What is important is what drives these communications and what carries them.
    what is the expansion of the zone of domination or, in peacetime, control, does not mean at all that it will be necessary to proportionally increase the strength of the Navy ...
    Why proportionally? It is still necessary to increase. The technical level of amers does not interrupt, there is nothing to try.
    an extra regiment, two anti-submarine aircraft ...
    There was an "extra" regiment, two, ten under the USSR. So what? Did it help?
    need to seek the opportunity to establish in these areas absolute dominance at sea ....
    This has never been and never will be. Control didn’t always work, and even “absolute”
    but in Syria, Russia crossed the Rubicon ...
    The Rubicon moved in March 2014. From here come Syria and NATO, and the position areas and future NATO membership of Georgia and Ukraine. Even Georgia was not a Rubicon.
  22. 0
    22 October 2019 17: 40
    Yeah When you read such articles, you understand the inevitability of increasing our fleet. It's good. The fleet is great!
    But for some reason, everyone who began to engage in our fleet somehow suspiciously extraordinarily died. That cold (Petr1), then again the cold (Nick1), the wreck of the car (Alex3), and even the basement of Ipatievsky house .... How would we ... this ... Save ...
  23. 0
    23 October 2019 08: 07
    Quote: Falcon5555

    therefore, activities to improve fuses (about which the article) looks strange. Moreover, the authors cannot imagine a situation in which the American president will give the order for the first strike on Russia or China.

    So make a conclusion from these two points.
    If, when accepting the postulate "the American president does not give the order for the first nuclear strike," the activity to improve the fuses looks strange. And when the counterpostulate "the American president will give the order for the first nuclear strike" is adopted, the activities to improve the fuses do not look strange. Which of the postulates is correct?
  24. +1
    27 October 2019 15: 22
    Quote: Vadim237
    It’s just in words - but in fact, all of this hyped foreign anti-aircraft defense equipment will not go far from the same Patriot super-SAM, as well as from the anti-torpedo protection program for the aircraft carrier, to which they lowered 750 millions and subsequently refused in view of low efficiency and this with their latest developments and technology in this area.

    1. The USA and NATO have very effective means of PLO (unlike us)
    2. According to "Tripwire" I do not see any reason for "tearing the trampoline", so that the Americans have worked, they can overtake us in 2 years
  25. +1
    27 October 2019 15: 24
    Quote: Vadim237
    "The Cold War, which by the 80s did not allow our nuclear submarines to enter the Atlantic freely." Tell these submariners these tales

    and "Murzilka" (the same "reliability") YOU could not bring here? lol
  26. -1
    7 December 2019 10: 03
    Here are just a bunch of unsuitable kids such tasks can not be completed. Carriers are still needed, or rather, even the AUG.
  27. +2
    23 December 2019 21: 10
    Give the ships of the ocean zone! So that you have no bottom, no tires. !!!
    And where to get their relatives !? ! ..
    It must be taken somewhere, however. Says Comrade Author. That is, where you want to take it, but so that tomorrow will be.
    There is no such possibility .... And to me, on the drum. The main thing is that they cost! We have tomorrow - says the base of torpedo boats! We are ready .. But we won’t go to the ocean by weather conditions.
    And you say the Soviet Union-Soviet Union ...
    Something like this was resolving issues. Today, similarly by the way.
    Only the Union had more opportunities at times !! ..
  28. +1
    10 July 2023 00: 01
    The idea is good, but I would have finalized it in detail!

    It is easier to organize zones of control and expansion if, even in peacetime, there are fleet deployment zones OUTSIDE our maritime borders and OUTSIDE the straits controlled by potential adversaries and DIRECTLY facing the open sea.

    For example, with the help of several naval bases. And it doesn't have to be a lot of them. The very fact of having ONE large naval base on the west coast of Africa (Let's say in Morocco) is ALREADY a big strategic problem for them. Since from it we can safely send ships to any point in the Atlantic Ocean, bypassing the waters and bases of our sworn allies.

    And by creating a simple network of such bases (one on each continental coast of the three oceans).
    At least in the amount of 6 pieces (it seems like a lot, but given how many bases NATO has, this already seems like a trifle).

    It comes out like this:
    Africa - 2 bases. One on the west coast with direct access to the Atlantic Ocean (Applicant countries: Morocco, Senegal, Guinea, Chad, Nigeria or Angola). Another on the east coast, with access to the Indian Ocean (Applicant countries: Kenya, Tanzania, Mozambique or Madagascar).
    Lat. and Center. America - 2 bases. One on the west coast with direct access to the Pacific Ocean (Contender countries: Nicaragua, Colombia, Ecuador, Peru or Chile). Another on the east coast, with access to the Atlantic Ocean (Contender countries: Cuba, Colombia, Venezuela, Brazil, Uruguay or Argentina).
    Asia - 2 bases. One on the southwest coast with direct access to the Indian Ocean (Applicant countries: India, Bangladesh, Myanmar, Sri Lanka, Thailand or Malaysia). Another on the east coast, with access to the Pacific Ocean (Contender countries: Vietnam, China, Thailand, Indonesia or Papua New Guinea).

    Additionally it would be nice to get bases in the Pacific Ocean itself since it is large, and have one naval base somewhere in the center (let's say something from French Polynesia) for having a bounce base. One in the Caribbean (for having a close control base for both the exit from the Panama Canal, and for close access to Florida where one of the main US spaceports is located, and space in modern times is a strategic field). And one on the African Mediterranean coast (Contender countries: Egypt, Algeria possibly Libya) in order to have a permanent deployment point for the fleet in the Mediterranean Sea OUTSIDE the Turkish straits, but at the same time (unlike our base in Syria) away from the territories of NATO member countries that do not have a land border with them. And with the potential opportunity in the case of a hypothetical "H" hour, it was the Mediterranean group that would have to seize control of Gibraltar and the Suez Canal (in order to separate the fleet of hypothetical opponents, without the ability to gather forces by combining ships from different fleets in the Mediterranean Sea. And dividing them , it will be easier to melt them separately, and for some countries, blocking the strait and canal in general will undermine the economy).

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