РўРѕРї-5 РЅР ° РёР ± РѕР »РµРµ СЌС„ С „ективны С ... 155-РјРј СЃРЅР ° СЂСЏРґРѕРІ

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155-millimeter shells, like the artillery caliber of the same name, are one of the most popular in the world. They are produced by a variety of countries, many of which, keeping pace with the times, have made these ammunition adaptable. Introducing the top 5 version of the most successful 155-mm shells in terms of efficiency.





Since the end of the 20 century, most NATO armies have adopted the 155 mm weapon as a universal standard. 155-mm is a compromise between range and destructive force, and the use of only one caliber simplifies logistics. It was in this caliber that the M109 howitzer was made - the most common indirect support weapon in Western countries. In addition, the relatively low speed of the initial shot allows to increase the survival rate of the electronic filling in guided projectiles.

Krasnopol: laser-guided guided missiles


Krasnopol M1 and M2 are modifications of the Russian guided artillery shell under the 155-mm "NATO standard". The design of the projectile uses semi-active guidance on a target illuminated by a laser. The bottom gas generator allowed to reduce the length of the projectile.

Laser guidance has a number of tactical drawbacks: the gunner must constantly “highlight” the target throughout the shot; bad weather and terrain can make it difficult to keep a target; hitting moving targets can also be problematic, as they can go beyond line of sight. In addition, armored vehicles are now equipped with equipment that allows you to determine whether an object is in the radiation zone of laser observation devices.


Nevertheless, shells of this type were successfully used in battle by both India (Krasnopol) and the United States (Copperhead).

The maximum firing range of Krasnopol is 25 km. Compared to the Escalibur, the range is almost half lower. However, due to the possibility of laser guidance, the ammunition is capable of hitting both stationary and moving targets. For foreign deliveries, the DHY307 laser target design system developed in France was used. The undoubted advantage of Krasnopol is the price, which is almost two times lower than the cost of the US-Swedish shell.

The projectile was supplied to various countries, including India and the People's Republic of China, as well as the production of ammunition under license in China.

Two Chinese shells GP1 and GP6, the production of which on the basis of Russian development was launched by the Chinese Norinco, should also be attributed to Krasnopol. GP1 has a maximum range of 20 km (GP6-25 km) and a stated probability of getting 90% at maximum range. The use of these shells recorded in Libya.

M982 Excalibur: GPS-guided missiles


The M982 Excalibur is perhaps one of the world's most famous guided projectiles. The development of ammunition was launched in the 1992 year. The projectile is manufactured by Raytheon Missile Systems and BAE Systems Bofors, in addition to the USA, Sweden actively participated in the development. Due to the special design, which uses a bottom gas generator, the range of the Escalibur can reach 60 km.

The projectile uses a combined control system (satellite GPS and inertial). Combined warhead. Initially, the cost of the projectile was excessively high, about 258 000 dollars per unit. However, then, by about 2016, the cost was reduced to 63 thousand per shell. The projectile shows a high level of accuracy - already at the initial stage of application in 92% of cases at a distance of 40 km, the maximum deviation did not exceed 4 meters. Currently, the fifth version of this ammunition is being developed: it is intended for marine artillery pieces. However, its GPS guidance is now designated as a drawback - after allegations that "Russians are breaking GPS signals."


TopGun: conversion modules for standard 155-mm shells


Adjustable Top Gun shells (top photo in the material) manufactured by the Israeli company IAI, in fact, are not shells, and this is their plus and minus. This is a conversion kit that can turn any NATO standard 155-mm projectile into a munition relatively cheaply. It works on the principle of GPS. Due to this, the CVO of the projectile is less than 10 meters.

The development of Top Gun has been around since 2010. Conversion kits with a control unit cost from 20 000 dollars per unit, which is significantly lower than the cost of most munitions that can be adjusted. The module is screwed instead of the fuse, therefore, performs its functions. TopGun is equipped with small pull-out rudders. They are controlled by miniature avionics built into the module.

Avionics performs an accurate calculation of the position of the projectile in space and plans the optimal course for the exact hit of the projectile at the target. The coordinates of the target are laid in the module in advance, i.e. before the shot.

HE-ER Nammo 155 mm: advanced standard shells


Improving conventional unmanaged 155-mm artillery shells also plays an important role. The new projectile of the Norwegian company Nammo due to a different, more streamlined shape and modern processing methods at a distance of 20 km was able to reduce the deviation from the target from +/- 80 m to +/- 30 m.



In addition to increased accuracy, the HE-ER also has an improved fragmentation effect against a wide range of targets on the battlefield. It has a modular design, equipped with a screw-on removable unit, which allows you to change the range of distances at which the projectile can be released.

Bofors 155mm BONUS / SMArt 155: homing missiles to defeat heavy armored vehicles


155mm BONUS - 155-mm artillery shell, jointly Bofors from Sweden and Nexter from France. It is designed for indirect long-range destruction of armored vehicles. The BONUS base shell contains two submunitions that descend over the battlefield on winglets and attack the programmed targets on an area up to 32 000 square meters.

РўРѕРї-5 РЅР ° РёР ± РѕР »РµРµ СЌС„ С „ективны С ... 155-РјРј СЃРЅР ° СЂСЏРґРѕРІ


With a decrease, the submunition rotates, scanning the territory using multi-frequency infrared sensors, which compare the detected vehicles with a programmable target database. Each of the submunitions contains a high penetration warhead capable of destroying heavy armored vehicles, including Tanks. The ammunition also has a design that increases its range to 35 kilometers.

BONUS is currently used in several countries, including Finland, France, Norway and Sweden, the United States is preparing to purchase this ammunition.

A similar device has the German SMArt 155. Its main difference is that it descends by parachute, and does not plan on a system of winglets. In addition to the Bundeswehr, the armies of Switzerland, Greece and Australia also have it in their arsenal.
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  1. +8
    15 October 2019 11: 19
    Top Gun Adjustable Shells
    that's what takes first place and deservedly. Turn an ordinary projectile into a manageable, this is FIVE SCORES
    1. +1
      15 October 2019 11: 48
      Yes, but the price of the conversion kit is $ 20 thousand ... expensive! what
      You don’t especially practice at the training ground ...
      Of course, I’m not an Gunner, but ... in my opinion - the crooked hands of gunners can nullify - all the declared characteristics! request
      1. +1
        15 October 2019 11: 51
        Quote: ANIMAL
        Yes, but the price of the conversion kit is $ 20 thousand ... expensive!
        You don’t especially practice at the training ground ...

        Well, thank God, now you can create a fully functional simulator.
        1. +5
          15 October 2019 11: 54
          Partly agree with you ... but - The field will not replace more than one simulator!
          We have built an electronic shooting range ... electronic plate shooting champions ... closed the line of the rating of ordinary shooting! laughing
      2. 0
        16 October 2019 09: 08
        Quote: ANIMAL
        Yes, but the price of the conversion kit is $ 20 thousand ... expensive!

        these shells are not to shell the enemy’s front for two hours.
        the first accurate salvo on radio nodes, etc. and then the old fashioned way.
        I think the one who will use such tactics has an advantage.
        1. 0
          16 October 2019 11: 24
          Quote: Maki Avellievich
          the first accurate volley at radio nodes

          And how do you know the exact coordinates of these nodes if the radio reconnaissance gives accuracy at best tens of meters?
      3. 0
        16 October 2019 16: 42
        Compared with the cost of excalibur (258 ye) it’s not very expensive =)
    2. +3
      15 October 2019 16: 14
      Quote: svp67
      that's what takes first place and deservedly.

      Why?
      The first place in terms of efficiency is with HE-ER. Less dispersion than the "standard" and at the same time more power on the target than the standard. And the same universalism as the standard one.

      The rest are highly specialized shells, which show their effectiveness only when "their" targets are hit.
      1. 0
        15 October 2019 16: 30
        Quote: Spade
        Why?

        Well, Lopatov came and "swore" .... Oh, uncle, don't swear. I liked the very idea of ​​such an easy transformation of an ordinary projectile into a WTO.
        1. +2
          15 October 2019 17: 38
          Quote: svp67
          I liked the idea of ​​such an easy transformation of an ordinary projectile into a WTO.

          Expensive and of little use.

          The smartest thing in the West right now is the Spacido distance dispersion reduction system from Nekster. Which the author for some reason did not mention.

          1. +1
            15 October 2019 22: 18
            Quote: Spade
            The smartest thing in the West right now is the Spacido distance dispersion reduction system from Nekster. Which the author for some reason did not mention.


            It is impossible to embrace the immensity. (c) Something be left out
            1. +1
              15 October 2019 22: 37
              The title of the article is unsuccessful in principle.

              Because it is simply impossible to write about "efficiency" here. For it is impossible to give a general definition of this efficiency.
              For example, "Excalibur" is absolutely useless when trying to hit a moving tank, the Bonus is absolutely useless when trying to hit a bunker

              And which of these two shells is more effective?
      2. 0
        15 October 2019 21: 50
        The production of such shells requires expensive equipment and is too time-consuming to manufacture. Gross production of such shells will be difficult to organize. In addition, guided shells can level out errors and assumptions in calculating the settings for firing, but conventional ones do not. So the declared dispersion is theoretical and will be possible only when firing under tabular conditions, which is simply impossible.
        1. +1
          15 October 2019 22: 46
          Quote: Lexa-149
          The production of such shells requires expensive equipment and is too time-consuming to manufacture. Gross production of such shells will be difficult to organize.

          Exactly. Stupid divorce. After all, it is much easier, given the modern capabilities of electronics, to simply take an ordinary projectile and scan / weigh it for compliance in weight distribution and geometry, enter this data into a "smart mark" like on Russian fur coats laughing
          .
          When charging, the ASUNO will remotely remove ind. corrections for this particular projectile and enter them in the calculated data for firing.
          But it will not bring such large profits to the manufacturer as HE-ER Nammo

          Quote: Lexa-149
          In addition, guided missiles

          Guided and even adjusted shells are economically feasible only when shooting at an observed point target is very rare for real wars of medium and high intensity.
          Medical fact.
          In all other cases, their use is not economically and tactically justified. This is money and, even worse, time down the drain.
          1. 0
            16 October 2019 00: 15
            In all other cases, their use is not economically and tactically justified.

            I wouldn't say that. Adjustable 240mm adjustable mines "Daredevil" have shown themselves perfectly in Afghanistan and Chechnya. Anyway, it is cheaper to fire 1-2 shells than Kamaz shells, in order to guarantee the suppression of any pillbox.
            After all, it’s much easier with the modern capabilities of electronics to simply take a conventional projectile and scan / weigh it for compliance with the weight distribution and geometry

            This is only a small part of ballistic training! And who will take into account the deviation in range due to the properties of the batch of charge? A change in weather conditions? And how to take into account errors and assumptions of technical training?
            1. 0
              16 October 2019 11: 28
              Quote: Lexa-149
              showed themselves perfectly in Afghanistan and Chechnya.

              There is a huge difference between "they have shown themselves excellently" and "economically expedient". Moreover, neither in Afghanistan nor in Chechnya have they ever been used against group targets.

              Quote: Lexa-149
              And who will take into account the deviation in range due to the properties of the batch of charge?

              Doppler determinant of the initial velocity deviation.

              Quote: Lexa-149
              A change in weather conditions?

              Weather station

              Quote: Lexa-149
              And how to take into account errors and assumptions of technical training?

              Targeting or creating a rapper.
              1. 0
                17 October 2019 14: 54
                In theory, everything sounds beautiful.
                Guided and adjustable shells and mines are used exclusively against single targets. Group ammunition strikes with conventional ammunition.
                When an infantry company rinse with blood and ask for artillery fire, no one will remember about the economy. War itself is an expensive thing.
                Imagine how you will look into the eyes of a battalion commander and talk about economic inexpediency!
                Have you seen many Doppler sensors on guns?
                In which departments is this weather station? How often will it give you "meteorological"? And, as always happens with us, at the most inopportune moment the station runs out of gas to refuel the probes.
                You can create or shoot a rapper if the situation allows. And what are the expiration dates of the data? What are the limits of fire transfer from a rapper?
                1. 0
                  17 October 2019 18: 23
                  Quote: Lexa-149
                  When the infantry’s mouth is washed with blood

                  ... the artillery will fire just normal ammunition. Because there will be no time for the imposing "reconnoitered-made a decision-struck".

                  So let's do it. You are the infantry. Come on.
                  Option one. I keep the enemy under constant fire from the moment you reach the line of destruction with long-range vehicles and until you reach the line of safe removal.
                  Option Two. They calmly shoot you, and I hit TCP as they show themselves. If they do not have the mind to change the fire after starting.

                  What do you prefer?

                  Quote: Lexa-149
                  Have you seen many Doppler sensors on guns?

                  One per division.
                  Quote: Lexa-149
                  What units does the weather station have?

                  In every battery. Well, plus the "Smiles" of senior bosses

                  Quote: Lexa-149
                  How often will it give you "meteorological"?

                  With the set. And the new "Smile" also has a radar of wind parameters. But if they missed it, you can easily fix the old one, having data on the surface wind.

                  Quote: Lexa-149
                  You can create or shoot a rapper if the situation allows.

                  17 minutes at night on "satisfactory" and without any calculators and computers, only "old school" And the next in 3 hours.

                  Quote: Lexa-149
                  What are the limits of fire transfer from a rapper?

                  And where does the transfer of fire? Do not confuse warm with soft.
                  1. 0
                    17 October 2019 20: 11
                    So let's do it. You are the infantry. Come on.

                    Come on!
                    I am the infantry. The terrain does not allow me to advance with the support of tanks and infantry fighting vehicles. The enemy, from well-equipped and camouflaged bunkers, who had not previously betrayed themselves, with the fire of a heavy machine gun from a prevailing height and from different directions, pressed the company to the ground and methodically shot it. The company fell into the fire bag. (Real situation?)
                    You have conventional HE shells and 3OF39 Krasnopol at your base. As the commander of the attached artillery unit, the battalion commander gives you the command "Destroy!"
                    You answered "Yes!" But, it turned out that the target is outside the range of fire transfer from the benchmark. (Another introduction - 30 minutes ago the expiration date of the benchmark data expired, and the weather has changed dramatically *).
                    What are you going to do? Create a new FR (shoot AR) and spend those precious 10-15 minutes? Wait until the "meteorological" is recounted? Should you zero in on the target and try to destroy the bunker with conventional projectiles, or will you still spit on the economy and fire a controlled projectile at exactly one bunker, and then in another, and on the same installations?
                    In addition, there is another economy: which is more important? The cost of one or two guided shells or the cost of human lives, state property and uniforms that the enemy destroys?
                    * How the weather changes dramatically in a matter of minutes from calm to a dust storm - I felt in my own skin.
                    1. 0
                      17 October 2019 20: 25
                      Quote: Lexa-149
                      the battalion commander gives the command "Destroy!"

                      Such a battalion commander, who has forgotten that he has an ATGM, must be taken to a ravine and quickly slapped by the sentence of a field tribunal. For brainlessness.
                      No UAS can be more efficient than infantry weapons capable of direct fire.

                      Well, trying to hit a DOT with a 152-mm UAS is, to put it mildly, a disastrous option.
                      Either drag the self-propelled guns to direct fire for firing at the floor wall, or shooting for destruction again at it. Picking up the combat cover from above with the help of the UAS is a much longer and scary fairy tale.

                      Quote: Lexa-149
                      outside the range of fire transfer from the rapper

                      Well, to hell with him. There are corrections after shooting or creating a benchmark. And you can transfer the fire from the previous target.
                      1. 0
                        17 October 2019 20: 27
                        I served in the MSD, in which ATHLETS and even LNG-9 were NOT AT ALL in the shelves.
                      2. 0
                        17 October 2019 20: 34
                        Quote: Lexa-149
                        I served in the MSD, in which ATHLETS and even LNG-9 were NOT AT ALL in the shelves.

                        It does not happen.
                        If there is no anti-tank unit in the battalion, then this is a battalion on the BMP. and there is ATGM for each motorized rifle compartment. Just remove the hardware unit and the sight, put it on the machine from the spare parts, take rockets and you have an excellent direct-fire support tool.

                        Well, in the shelves, and in each, there was a mandatory ATGM battery. And one more in a separate anti-tank division of the division.
                      3. 0
                        17 October 2019 20: 38
                        An example is 191MSP 201MSD on an armored personnel carrier. When I arrived at it, there were not even mortar batteries in the SME. The mortar battery was a separate unit in the regiment. The anti-tank battery in the regiment does not appear. The regiment is armed with no SPG-9. If you think that this is a cropped regiment, I dare to disappoint you - a combat regiment that survived two civil wars in Tajikistan and then performed combat missions to strengthen the outposts of the Panj border detachment.
                        In the 201st MSD itself, there was no OPTAD. The tank regiment was at one time reduced to a separate tank battalion.
                      4. 0
                        17 October 2019 20: 39
                        Quote: Lexa-149
                        When I arrived, there weren’t even mortar batteries in the SME

                        Then it is necessary to shoot the division commander together with the regiment commanders.

                        But now no one really has such a giant dope.
                      5. 0
                        17 October 2019 20: 40
                        And what for them ?! They do not appoint their own organizational and staff structure!
                      6. 0
                        17 October 2019 20: 46
                        Quote: Lexa-149
                        And them for what ?!

                        For stupidity and spinelessness.
                        For example, our regiment had a mortar of four platoon composition in each motorized rifle battalion for its third war (it was the second Chechen war). One platoon of 120 mm mortars above the state. Plus, the anti-tank battery and infantry received the 135th launchers over state. That is, it was not necessary to remove the BMP.
                        What can I say, if we, ADN had AGSs. Because they thought we needed them.
                      7. 0
                        17 October 2019 20: 48
                        Well, the GOMU of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation (or the General Staff, who is doing this there?) Decided that it would be better for us.
                      8. 0
                        17 October 2019 20: 50
                        Quote: Lexa-149
                        Well, the GOMU of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation (or the General Staff, who is doing this there?) Decided that it would be better for us.

                        And with us, the division commander wrote a request, and received the AGS for each battery. And no General Staff did not mind.
                      9. 0
                        17 October 2019 20: 52
                        There are no problems with the shooting. I wrote a request to the RAV service, agreed with the regiment commander and the whole business! But when it comes to creating a separate anti-tank unit - a completely different calico.
                      10. 0
                        17 October 2019 21: 01
                        Quote: Lexa-149
                        But when the question is about creating a separate anti-tank unit

                        What for? It is quite possible to single out one-two freelance calculations per platoon, give the 135th launchers from the warehouse and train. Business then ...
                      11. 0
                        17 October 2019 21: 06
                        Probably, the combined arms commanders did not have the desire, nor the mind, nor the will ...
                        By the way, when transferring the division to the state of a military base, there were more artillery in the motorized rifle regiments than the infantry itself! laughing
                        These are:
                        - 2 GSADn
                        - ReABatr "Grad-1"
                        - 2MinBatr
                        - VUNA
                        And there were only two SME infantry!)))
                      12. 0
                        17 October 2019 20: 45
                        Something I did not hear in the 201st WB appeared anti-tank units.
                        In the SME on the BMP that remained after the cuts, there is no educational and material base for training BMP operator-gunners in firing from an ATGM installation, and missiles for combat shooting, all the more, do not.
                      13. 0
                        17 October 2019 20: 48
                        Quote: Lexa-149
                        there is no educational base for training BMP gunner-operators firing from an ATGM system

                        Missed the officers' hands, and they forgot how to cut silhouettes out of cardboard? Hard case...
                      14. 0
                        17 October 2019 20: 50
                        The question is not on salary. I have never seen the infantry conduct classes in firing from anti-tank systems.
                      15. 0
                        17 October 2019 20: 59
                        Quote: Lexa-149
                        The question is not on salary. I have never seen the infantry conduct classes in firing from anti-tank systems.

                        Just the same "in terms of salary", this is their direct responsibility. They fought the most severely for matbaza.
                        The infantry with us usually did not conduct themselves either, they turned to the artillerymen. Young lieutenants were sent only from the schools, "they still remember"
                      16. 0
                        17 October 2019 21: 02
                        This is a question about their salary, not mine. In your regiment, as you can see, otherwise a combat training system was built.
                        About the UMB. And we fought mercilessly for her. But in the infantry, along the way, she was not focused on the use of ATGMs, and the artillery were not called to their aid.
                      17. 0
                        17 October 2019 21: 06
                        Quote: Lexa-149
                        In your regiment, as you can see, otherwise a combat training system was built.

                        Yeah. Regardless of the salary, which was delayed for half a year.
                      18. 0
                        17 October 2019 21: 09
                        And I found these times. But they went to the border and kept the cars in full BG condition. There were almost no cars on the PTOR site. This is considering that the cars from Afghanistan came.
                        There were such features of the staff structure. In SMEs on the armored personnel carrier, instead of the D-30, the division had 2s1.
  2. 0
    15 October 2019 11: 25
    Weapons are becoming ... smarter. He doesn’t think yet, but, as it were, reasoning whether it flies or not, and it can be headed by that!
    The only question is the price !!!
    1. 0
      15 October 2019 11: 59
      about 258 dollars per unit. However, then, by about 000, the cost was reduced to 2016 thousand per shell.
      What goals should be? Exactly - from a gun on sparrows.
      1. 0
        15 October 2019 12: 16
        Quote: lwxx
        What goals should be? Exactly - from a gun on sparrows.

        It's not just the cost of the target itself, but also how much damage it can do. For example, some dushman mortar began to fire at a convoy of conditional "ours": this mortar itself is penny, but it can crumble a lot of "ours" until they get to it. And in this situation it is no longer so a pity to drop 60+ kilobucks for this mortar.
        1. 0
          15 October 2019 12: 49
          The goal is the task, the price. If the task is cheaper than the ROCKET, there are no questions, all the more so if firing at areas for objective reasons is impossible or not effective.
          There are applications, but not at a fabulous price, of course.
        2. +1
          15 October 2019 16: 15
          Quote: Kalmar
          Let's say some dushman mortar

          Tortured him picking shells with correction for ZhPS.
          1. 0
            15 October 2019 23: 36
            Quote: Spade
            Tortured him picking shells with correction for ZhPS.

            I do not necessarily say about the ZhPS. Although, if a drone nearby, which can quickly determine the exact coordinates of the mortar, spins nearby, send the gunners so that they also quickly fill them with brains of the next shell, then why not.
            1. 0
              16 October 2019 11: 34
              Quote: Kalmar
              Although, if a drone is spinning nearby, which can quickly determine the exact coordinates of the mortar

              And after that, you just get tired of picking. Well, roughly 30 meters error in determining the coordinates from the UAV. plus 20 meters of a missile defense. Total approximately 36 meters. That is 50% of the shells in a circle with a diameter of 72 meters. The rest is even further.
              It will be difficult to get into the trenched mortar ...
              1. 0
                16 October 2019 11: 53
                Quote: Spade
                Well, roughly 30 meters error in determining coordinates from a UAV

                Is it really that bad? Even civilian GPS-receivers are able to give more accuracy; the military - even more so. Add a decent laser rangefinder, and now it should be much more accurate.

                Quote: Spade
                plus 20 meters of a missile defense

                Firstly, it is not necessary to always hit exclusively for maximum givenness, you can drive closer.
                Secondly, why 20? Look at the article mentioned shells with a deviation within 4m to 40km - this is the maximum!
                1. 0
                  16 October 2019 12: 09
                  Quote: Kalmar
                  Is it really that bad?

                  I'm afraid even worse. Moreover, the smaller the size of the UAV, the greater this problem.
                  By the way, this very "decent rangefinder" is the main contributor to errors.

                  Quote: Kalmar
                  Firstly, it is not necessary to always hit exclusively for maximum givenness, you can drive closer.

                  Irrelevant. The accuracy of guided ammunition does not depend on the firing range. This is their main plus. Turning out a minus when firing at relatively short ranges, when the dispersion of conventional ammunition may be lower.



                  Quote: Kalmar
                  Secondly, why 20? Look at the article mentioned shells with a deviation within 4m to 40km - this is the maximum!

                  This is not the maximum, but the same for all ranges. In addition, the declared accuracy of the Israeli "attachments" greatly outstrips the declared accuracy of the Excalibur and very much the American "attachments". Using the same technologies. So these 10 meters are in question.
                  Although you can count. Total 32 meters. 50% of the shells in a circle of 64 meters.
    2. 0
      17 October 2019 20: 41
      One price - your life or the life of your subordinates.
  3. +3
    15 October 2019 11: 34
    hi ..; "Krasnopol" M1 and M2 are modifications of the Russian guided artillery shell soldier .... under 155 mm "NATO standard".
    155mm BONUS - 155mm artillery shell, jointly Bofors from Sweden and Nexter from France. It is designed for indirect long-range destruction of armored vehicles ....
    1. +1
      15 October 2019 11: 51
      In your video, Krasnopol has an 152 mm caliber ..... in an 155mm article ....
      1. +1
        15 October 2019 11: 59
        I saw ... This is disa from the MO laughing

        ... For attention - "+"
      2. +2
        15 October 2019 13: 28
        Quote: Tiksi-3
        In your video, Krasnopol has an 152 mm caliber ..... in an 155mm article ....

        "Krasnopol" exists, and in caliber 152 mm, and in caliber 155 mm ....
      3. 0
        15 October 2019 13: 49
        Quote: Tiksi-3
        .in article 155mm ....

        Quote: in the article
        "Krasnopol" M1 and M2 are modifications of the Russian guided artillery shell for 155-mm "NATO standard"
        And how much is the actual diameter different?
    2. 0
      15 October 2019 12: 06
      With great respect ... Where do you find all this? belay
      Spy? Where can I sign up ??? bully
      1. +1
        15 October 2019 15: 15
        Quote: ANIMAL
        ... Where do you find all this ?:

        In YouTube in warehouses ... There are many fellow
  4. 0
    15 October 2019 12: 07
    Maybe my question will sound idiotic and naive, but why among the top 5, 4 adjustable munitions. Isn't it more profitable to upgrade conventional ones to increase accuracy without electronics? Will it be economically profitable?
    1. 0
      15 October 2019 12: 35
      Quote: Darkesstcat
      Will it be economically profitable?

      No.
      In modern conditions, art is not used for space, but, in fact, to support special forces. Accordingly, her task is not only to get, say, into a specific house, but also don't get caught to the next one. Moreover, the second is more important than the first. This can only be implemented on a guided projectile.

      Therefore, the author’s sketch about the evil Russians who jam JiSeM is inappropriate. Questions with electronic warfare should not be decided by ground forces, to which artillery belongs, but by other types of troops.
      1. +1
        15 October 2019 16: 19
        Quote: tesser
        In modern conditions, art is not used in areas

        Who told you such nonsense?

        Quote: tesser
        Accordingly, her task is not only to get into, say, a specific house, but also not to get into a neighboring one.

        Shells with ZhPS this will not provide you.

        Quote: tesser
        Therefore, the author’s sketch about the evil Russians who jam JiSeM is inappropriate.

        It is absolutely appropriate. And so not very accurate shells become even less accurate. With all the consequences.
        1. +1
          15 October 2019 17: 56
          Quote: Spade
          Who told you such nonsense?

          One grandmother, as usual.

          Do you have experience with precision projectiles? Tell if not difficult.
          Quote: Spade
          Shells with ZhPS this will not provide you.

          It’s just for this that escaliburs are used, as far as I know from the internet. The defeat of individual buildings in the building.
          Quote: Spade
          And so not very accurate shells become even less accurate. With all the consequences.

          Ground forces in general, and artillery in particular, should not meet with an enemy who has an electronic warfare level higher than aliexpress. At least that is the idea.
          1. +3
            15 October 2019 18: 38
            Quote: tesser
            Do you have experience with precision projectiles? Tell if not difficult.

            For a long time the brain was taken out during the organization There is a gem called "shot synchronization kit", which should be crammed into a certain place by the creators. During the entire time they shot twice.
            When performing most of the tasks that we performed, the thing is completely useless.


            Quote: tesser
            Just for this, escaliburs are used,

            You never know what is used there. According to the KVO, which they themselves indicate in the characteristics, there is no safety for neighboring houses and is close.

            Quote: tesser
            Ground forces in general and artillery in particular should not meet with the enemy

            And the enemy will not ask. Meet and have to rake the consequences.
            1. 0
              16 October 2019 06: 17
              Quote: Spade
              When performing most of the tasks that we performed, the thing is completely useless.

              OK.
              Let's see what tasks you performed and what tasks the M982 Excalibur performs. The device, in fact, has been used for more than 10 years by not the most peaceful comrades.
              Quote: Spade
              According to the KVO, which they themselves indicate in the characteristics, there is no safety for neighboring houses and is close.

              4 meters? Acceptable. Non-American voters also live in neighboring houses, after all.
              Quote: Spade
              And the enemy will not ask. Meet and have to rake the consequences.

              Here you are, of course, right. Opponents who for some reason do not want to fight, as they should, meet for some reason almost every time. Some kind of law of meanness.

              Nonetheless. The device was created and not without success is used for specific tasks. The shelling of the Kremlin and other places that are problematic in terms of GPS have not yet appeared on the list of these tasks.
              1. +1
                16 October 2019 11: 07
                Quote: tesser
                and what tasks does the M982 Excalibur perform.

                It carries out the task of generating windfall profits for BAE Systems. Performs well. Thanks, among other things, to these "high-precision" shells, this transnational company ranks first in the world in terms of income among weapons manufacturers.

                Quote: tesser
                4 meters?

                Even the developers themselves are not so impudent, giving out 20 meters. That is 100% of the shells in a circle with a diameter of 160 meters. Neighboring houses are not safe unambiguously. And the neighboring houses of neighboring houses, too.

                Quote: tesser
                The device was created and not without success is used for specific tasks.

                Naturally. The denyuza is dripping, the gunners are getting dull.
                So much so that even in the US Army they began to think about this problem.
                1. 0
                  16 October 2019 13: 50
                  Quote: Spade
                  He fulfills the task of earning excess profits by BAE Systems

                  Formally ratheon. Bai American.
                  Quote: Spade
                  Even the developers themselves are not so impudent, giving out 20 meters

                  And what prevents to take and read?
                  The Excalibur projectile is a true precision weapon, impacting at a radial miss distance of less than two meters from the target

                  https://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/excalibur
                  And you do not need to pass their miss distance as a circular error probable (CEP) with Gaussian statistics on the dispersion ellipse of 4 CVOs in range. 2 meters is served exactly as marginal miss value. In theory, at least.
                  Quote: Spade
                  even the US Army began to think about this problem.

                  Well, about stupid artillerymen who do not play without a zepaes without an android, and consider the compass to be a plant, they think not only in the US Army.
                  1. 0
                    16 October 2019 17: 56
                    Quote: tesser
                    Formally ratheon. Bai American.

                    And they too.
                    But the fact remains that the main task of "Excalibur" is making money.

                    Quote: tesser
                    And you do not need to give their miss distance as a circular error probable (CEP) with Gaussian statistics on the dispersion ellipse of 4 CVOs in range. 2 meters is served exactly as the limit of the miss. In theory, at least.

                    Generally not "ultimate". RMD includes 90% of the shells.
                    But here such a huge question arises: Are you sure that this figure does not apply to "Excalibur S"? Which, in addition to ANN with ZHPS correction, is also equipped with a semi-active laser "head", therefore it has such accuracy
                    1. 0
                      16 October 2019 18: 26
                      Quote: Spade
                      Excalibur's main task is to make money.

                      What can I do here. Such is the wolf world of capitalism. But there are things that also harm a little bit (from LCS to gray camouflage), but there are things that help a little. In particular, if you have a D-30, and this is flying to you from 50 km, you get the feeling of some kind of setup.
                      Quote: Spade
                      RMD includes 90% of the shells.

                      OK. But about 160 m in range it still does not pull.
                      Quote: Spade
                      Are you sure this figure does not apply to Excalibur S?

                      I’m almost sure that this applies to him, this is advertising. Nevertheless, as you yourself noticed, the control unit provides the same accuracy in all conditions, except for electronic warfare, including in range, so the ellipses and CVO do not play here.
                      1. 0
                        16 October 2019 18: 52
                        Quote: tesser
                        What can I do here. Such is the wolf world of capitalism.

                        But fathers commanders should also have a conscience, right?

                        Quote: tesser
                        In particular, if you have a D-30

                        Then, with her high accuracy, I'm on a horse. In addition to these D-30s, I have one battalion division
                        And the Americans, at best, have one 155 battery per battalion.

                        Quote: tesser
                        and here it flies to you from 50 km

                        Will not fly. The counter-battery radar will not provide sufficiently accurate coordinates for the use of ANN / ZhPS shells. Missing American sound intelligence is similar.

                        Quote: tesser
                        Nevertheless, as you yourself noticed, the control unit provides the same accuracy in all conditions, except for electronic warfare, including in range, so the ellipses and CVO do not play here.

                        Your idea is not quite clear. Just ANN + ZhPS is practically useless. In fact, it does not even belong to high-precision ones, since it cannot hit a point target with a probability of more than 50%.
                        But it’s worth, as if cast from silver

                        A projectile with a semi-active laser seeker is good, accurate, versatile, but very limited in capabilities due to the need for backlighting.

                        Although as a supplement to conventional shells, they are quite suitable. On observed point targets that cannot be hit by combined arms with direct fire tanks and infantry fighting vehicles. But personally, I would prefer as a "crutch" something like the long-promised "Hermes" Guided munition, not limited to the art form factor. the projectile will definitely be more effective. Even if it is a missile analogue of Krasnopol with LGSN
                      2. 0
                        17 October 2019 03: 14
                        Quote: Spade
                        fathers commanders should also have a conscience, right?

                        Conscience?
                        You seem to be talking about a country where not shot even the people who carried out the M16 rifle with commercial cartridges were scored with rifle butts, because with army cartridges she constantly wedged.
                        Quote: Spade
                        In addition to these D-30s, I have one battalion division
                        And the Americans, at best, have one 155 battery per battalion.

                        The standard includes 5 divisions for 9 battalions. The Americans have 1 battery (6 mm) for 155 battalions in the brigade (and 3 light 2 mm).
                        Quote: Spade
                        Will not fly. Counter-radar radar will not give sufficiently accurate coordinates

                        1. For ordinary will, but for ZhPS will not?
                        2. For some reason, you think that you will shoot first with your range of 15-22 km. The fact is that the Americans also think so to themselves, and they have some reason to hope so.
                        Quote: Spade
                        Your idea is not quite clear.

                        There is one thought in several paragraphs.
                        Quote: Spade
                        developers are not so impudent, giving out 20 meters. That is 100% of the shells in a circle with a diameter of 160 meters

                        You took 160 meters from an ellipse and KVO. For controllers, the math is different.
                      3. 0
                        17 October 2019 08: 58
                        Quote: tesser
                        The standard includes 5 divisions for 9 battalions.

                        The standard includes 6 divisions in the regiments and three in the artillery regiment of the division. At nine motorized rifle battalions.

                        Quote: tesser
                        The Americans have 1 battery (6 mm) for 155 battalions in the brigade (and 3 light 2 mm).

                        Only in the "light" brigades. The “heavy” and “striker” have full 155 divisions. M109 or M777, respectively.

                        Quote: tesser
                        1. For ordinary will, but for ZhPS will not?

                        Exactly. Since the goal will be assigned as a group areal. With the appointment of an appropriate fan, the number of installations of the sight and the consumption of ammunition And with a high probability will be hit.

                        Quote: tesser
                        For some reason, you think you will shoot first with your range of 15-22 km. The fact is that the Americans also think so to themselves, and they have some reason to hope so.

                        They have no reason to hope. Firstly, a firing range of 50 km does not mean that the firing unit will be deployed at such a distance from the line of contact. On the contrary, but it will be brought as close as possible in order to hit targets in the depths of battle formation. Secondly, we have MLRS. But the Americans do not.

                        Quote: tesser
                        You took 160 meters from an ellipse and KVO. For controllers, the math is different.

                        Yeah. By a decision of the US Congress, the provisions of probability theory and error theory no longer apply to them.
                        And illiterate guided ammunition developers do not know this, therefore they use normal-based CEP and RMD
                      4. 0
                        17 October 2019 14: 47
                        Quote: Spade
                        The standard 6 divisions in the shelves

                        2 regiment divisions in the standard? Well, OK.
                        Quote: Spade
                        The "heavy" and "striker" have full 155 divisions

                        Yes.
                        Quote: Spade
                        And with a high probability will be hit.

                        That is, without ZhPS they will shoot at the squares, but with ZhPS they just sit down and cry? I do not understand the train of thought.
                        Quote: Spade
                        They have no reason to hope.

                        )))
                        Quote: Spade
                        that the firing unit will be deployed at such a distance from the line of contact.

                        American art last decades works with fortified camps in the occupation zone. There are generally no lines of contact. And the D-30 is not, between us, except for mortars and NURSs from the bushes.
                        Quote: Spade
                        Secondly, we have MLRS. But the Americans do not.

                        The main world champion in MLRS - DPRK. The Americans converted their highmars into tactical missiles, which are also relatively accurate (Dots-U).
                        Quote: Spade
                        On the contrary, but it will be brought as close as possible in order to hit targets in the depths of battle formation

                        For some reason, you think that the enemy will act in a way that is more convenient for you. We recently blamed the Americans for the same thing.
                        Quote: Spade
                        Yeah. By a decision of the US Congress, the provisions of probability theory and error theory no longer apply to them.

                        Unfortunately, the US Congress has not yet passed a law on the elimination of Russian Wikipedia, as a result of which it is unselectably ruled by various hack workers and unfortunate patriots.
                        In particular, KVO of 20 meters you took, Haili likes, from there. If you crawl into the English-language wiki and follow the links, you can find out that 20 meters of water quality rating are the limit (for the worse) requirements of TK 20 years ago, and the water quality rating shown in the 2011 report is 4 meters.
                        In addition, you should not have put CEP and RMD on the same row. In the case of high-precision RMD, this is 4 CEP, that is, theoretically, the CEP of the latest versions of the escalibur is 1 (one) meter. On the other hand, difficulties are already beginning here, where is the advertisement of the ratheon, where is that.
                      5. 0
                        17 October 2019 17: 59
                        Quote: tesser
                        2 regiment divisions in the standard? Well, OK.

                        Yes. I even served in this.

                        Quote: tesser
                        That is, without ZhPS they will shoot at the squares, but with ZhPS they just sit down and cry? I do not understand the train of thought.

                        Elementary. Shooting shells with ZhPS on the areas is incredible stupidity.

                        Quote: tesser

                        American art for the past decades working with fortified camps in the occupation zone. There are generally no lines of contact.

                        I do not think that the Americans are so inadequate that they are ready to sharpen their Armed Forces under exclusively "stabilization operations"

                        Quote: tesser
                        For some reason, you think that the enemy will act in a way that is more convenient for you.

                        Just the same, he will act correctly, and keep the maximum depth of battle formation under attack. And if he decides to push his artillery as far as possible from the line of contact, then this will be a victory over him.

                        Quote: tesser
                        and demonstrated by CVO back in the 2011 report - 4 meters.

                        This is when they said that they allegedly determined the CEP during the hostilities? Sorry, but you can just tell your colleagues on reading "Russian Wikipedia" this noodle.

                        Quote: tesser
                        In the case of high precision, RMD is 4 CEP

                        Y-yes ....
                        A radius of 2 CEP is a probability of 93%, a radius of 1 RMD is a probability of 90%
                        And your statement can only be true in the case of "special" arithmetic. Which is also worth pushing through the US Congress.

                        There is such a thing as an approximation of the coordinate law of defeat stepwise. CEP is when there are four steps, RMD two. But the law of defeat is the same.
                        Moreover, it acts exactly the same as on guided ammunition, and not guided.

                        Quote: tesser
                        CEP of the latest escalibur versions - 1 (one) meter.

                        Well yes. For systems with LGSN, this is even quite a lot. The German-Italian group on "Vulcano" for its long-range guided vehicles in the version with laser illumination reported on CEP of 0.3m
                      6. 0
                        17 October 2019 18: 57
                        Quote: Spade
                        Yes. I even served in this.

                        We will assume that you have BBG.
                        Quote: Spade
                        Shooting shells with ZhPS on the areas is incredible stupidity.

                        Again you are about someone's conscience. The taxpayer does not become poor.
                        Quote: Spade
                        I do not think that the Americans are so inadequate that they are ready to sharpen their Armed Forces under exclusively "stabilization operations"

                        Do not think in vain. This trend is about twenty. The good thing (with the so-called militarist) is that the Americans have flashed 100500 special forces, the bad thing is that there are large weapons in the pen. Including art, with which even Estonians laugh with Korean K9 and Lithuanians with PzH 2000.
                        Quote: Spade
                        And if he decides to push his artillery as far as possible from the line of contact, then this will be a victory over him.

                        You continue to insist that with double superiority in range and, to put it mildly, controversial superiority in intelligence, the enemy will not strike first.
                        Quote: Spade
                        This is when they stated that they allegedly determined the CVO during the hostilities?

                        No, polygon data. 2011 MO report by link in English.
                        Quote: Spade
                        It works in exactly the same way as on guided ammunition, and not guided

                        The bow thruster does not fly according to the normal distribution; statistics need to be recounted. But first you need to deal with the CVO in relation to artillery shells instead of VSO.
                        Quote: Spade
                        For systems with LGSN, this is even quite a lot. The German-Italian group on "Vulcano" for its long-range guided vehicles in the version with laser illumination reported on CEP of 0.3m

                        And Vulcano adopted?
                      7. 0
                        17 October 2019 19: 12
                        Quote: tesser
                        We will assume that you have BBG.

                        You can count anything, but in all regiments of the 19th MSD there were two barrel divisions. Well, when reorganized into brigades, they survived.

                        Quote: tesser
                        Again you are about someone’s conscience

                        And what about conscience? There is no conscience and therefore decided to shoulder a lot more work?
                        When firing at an area target with conventional ammunition, only one coordinates are calculated. The center of the goal. And if you try to shoot from the ZhPS, you need the coordinates for each shell.

                        Quote: tesser
                        You continue to insist that with double superiority in range

                        There is no "superiority in range". Because there is an MLRS

                        Quote: tesser
                        No, polygon data. 2011 MO report by link in English.

                        Well, go and read what "polygons" are there.
                        I will hint to you: The capitalists are not. And huge money for such nonsense will not spend.

                        Quote: tesser
                        The thruster doesn’t fly according to the normal distribution,

                        Yeah. And he does not obey certain laws of physics.

                        But the boobies-developers are not up to date, because they constantly use concepts such as CER and RMD. Write them a letter, cure them from glaring ignorance.

                        Quote: tesser
                        And Vulcano adopted?

                        Of course not. They are reasonably insecure about the need for such shells.
                      8. 0
                        17 October 2019 23: 59
                        Quote: Spade
                        You can count anything, but in all regiments of the 19th MSD there were two barrel divisions.

                        Somehow it was thought that in Soviet times the second artillery was anti-aircraft gunners. However, I am not familiar with the topic personally, let there be two.
                        Quote: Spade
                        And if you try to shoot from the ZhPS, you need the coordinates for each shell.

                        What a misfortune.
                        You stubbornly argue that the fire task, which can be solved by blanks, is impossible to solve zhps. This is an unobvious thought. Unreasonable, expensive - another conversation.
                        Quote: Spade
                        There is no "superiority in range". Because there is an MLRS

                        It’s a bad way to deal with the Americans with divisional means of amplification. So no, your MLRS battalion is not supposed to. Or the Apaches will fly. The principle of this troubles with high-precision artifacts is precisely the brigade level of submission, in contrast to rippers and Apaches.
                        Quote: Spade
                        Well, go and read what "polygons" are there.

                        OK, I’m coming.
                        Quote: Spade
                        constantly use concepts such as SER and RMD

                        As a probabilistic assessment of getting specifically into the circle, these concepts work. When drawing an ellipse with 4 CVOs instead of 4 VSOs, no.
    2. +3
      15 October 2019 12: 52
      Unmanaged do not take into account the change in the same natural factors. A wind at such a range can change its direction several times.
      1. +1
        15 October 2019 16: 21
        Quote: Monar
        Unmanaged do not take into account the change in the same natural factors

        ?
        And what prevents to take into account?
        1. 0
          15 October 2019 17: 18
          And how do you imagine this? 25 and more kilometers are bullets. Wind how to consider at this distance? Yes, even in flight altitude.
          This is true. Nature. Then there are a bunch of factors. Barrel wear. Its temperature. Yes, even the condition of the soil under the cannon or self-propelled guns. All this can and only contributes a fraction of a degree to the deviation. But at a great distance, meters "past" accumulate.
          1. +1
            15 October 2019 17: 28
            Quote: Monar
            And how do you imagine this? 25 and more kilometers are bullets. Wind how to consider at this distance? Yes, even in flight altitude.

            Weather station, wind sounding station, radar parameters of the wind. Yes, and the usual meteopost can give a surface wind, with the help of which they specify the ballot or create a new one in case of emergency.
            And even easier, just create or shoot a rapper. Then not only the wind will be taken into account.

            Quote: Monar
            This is true. Nature. Then there are a bunch of factors. Barrel wear. Its temperature. Yes, even the condition of the soil under the cannon or self-propelled guns. All this can and only contributes a fraction of a degree to the deviation. But at a great distance, meters "past" accumulate.

            All this is taken into account. Then either the "old school" takes the amendments from the Shooting Tables, or modernly and progressively calculates the amendments and introduces the ASUNO computer itself.
            There, incidentally, even the coloring / unpaintedness of the projectile and the rotation of the Earth are taken into account.
            1. +1
              15 October 2019 17: 51
              No weather station can give an accurate forecast of the same wind speed on the entire flight route. This may change after the shot.
              Not a single shooting table can take into account the state of the soil with high accuracy. Even the filling of gunpowder has its own tolerances.
              And such unpredictable little things accumulate a decent amount.
              Yes. With the use of ASUNO firing accuracy increases significantly. But it only works until the projectile leaves the barrel. And then with tolerances. And then everything is in the wind.
              1. +1
                15 October 2019 18: 01
                Quote: Monar
                No weather station can give an accurate forecast of the same wind speed on the entire flight route.

                And this is not necessary. Enough ballistic wind. Which will affect the projectile in the same way.

                Quote: Monar
                Not a single shooting table can take into account the state of the soil with high accuracy.

                This is not necessary. The projectile is already flying away by the time the condition of the soil begins to matter

                Quote: Monar
                Even the filling of gunpowder has its own tolerances.

                It is taken into account in the deviation of the initial speed

                Quote: Monar
                Yes. With the use of ASUNO firing accuracy increases significantly. But it only works until the projectile leaves the barrel.

                E .....
                You are probably confusing something. ASUNO- automated guidance and fire control systems. They have nothing to do with internal ballistics and shell behavior in the barrel.
  5. +8
    15 October 2019 12: 45
    All of the guided projectiles and warheads described in this article have insufficient KVO (within 10 meters - a miss is guaranteed even when shooting at a field bunker). Plus, guidance on the reflected laser beam does not work in dusty conditions of the battlefield, and GPS in the target area is muffled like a fig. In general, money is wasted.

    Therefore, the most massive (they are the cheapest) guided missiles should be equipped exclusively with an inertial guidance system with a solid-state gyroscope and an accumulated positioning error of not more than 10 cm for every second of flight.
    1. +1
      15 October 2019 16: 25
      Quote: Operator
      Plus guidance on the reflected laser beam does not work in dusty battlefield conditions

      It works in most cases. But there are many problems of their own. Including optoelectronic suppression systems that shoot IR impervious aerosol curtains.

      Quote: Operator
      Therefore, the most massive (they are the cheapest) guided missiles should be equipped exclusively with an inertial guidance system with a solid-state gyroscope and an accumulated positioning error of not more than 10 cm for every second of flight.

      It makes no sense. laughing
      Coordinates of the target also get with an error. Comparable to the error of the ZhPS guidance.
      1. +6
        15 October 2019 18: 53
        Quote: Spade
        Works in most cases

        Marshal Ustinov disagrees with you on the results of the Zapad-81 exercise.

        In the case of using an electronic terrain map, the accuracy of the laser topographic location of the firing position and target location is measured within a meter in a three-dimensional coordinate system.
        1. +1
          15 October 2019 18: 59
          Quote: Operator
          Marshal Ustinov disagrees with you on the results of the Zapad-81 exercise.

          This is his problem. Or the problems of the developers who dumped their cant on "dustiness"

          Quote: Operator
          In the case of using an electronic map of the area

          It will not be absolutely accurate either.

          Quote: Operator
          the accuracy of the laser topographic location of the firing position and target location is measured within a meter in a three-dimensional coordinate system.

          Error in determining the coordinates of the NP, error in the orientation of the device, error in measuring the range to the target, error in measuring the range, error in determining the coordinates of the fire, error in the orientation of the guns. All this is squared, summarized and take the root.

          In short, there will be no special achievements.
          1. +9
            15 October 2019 19: 13
            All manufacturers of laser designators are shamelessly lying about the performance of their devices, none of which have ever been used in combined arms combat in the summer on sandy / forestry ground with smoke from bursting shells, burning armored vehicles, vegetation and buildings.

            The error in determining the range with a laser rangefinder is within a centimeter, the error in orienting a laser rangefinder with an integrated electronic map is within a decimeter, the error in orienting a projectile in a gun’s barrel is within a meter.
            1. +1
              15 October 2019 19: 18
              Quote: Operator
              All manufacturers of laser designators are shamelessly lying about the performance of their devices, none of which have ever been used in combined arms combat in the summer on sandy / forestry ground with smoke from bursting shells, ignited armored vehicles, vegetation and urban buildings.

              Americans are actively using. And not only them. It seems they didn’t complain ...

              Quote: Operator
              The error of laser rangefinders is within a centimeter,

              No. There are tens of meters. And if you do not make a mistake, and take the correct measurement.
              High-precision geodesics are too expensive, tender and bulky.


              Quote: Operator
              alignment error of the laser rangefinder on the ground - within the decimeter

              ?
              Angles in decimeters are not measured.

              Quote: Operator
              the error in orienting the projectile in the gun barrel is within a meter.

              ?
              1. +10
                15 October 2019 19: 28
                When the US Army was able to lead combined arms laser target design? laughing

                The location of the firing position / target is determined on the electronic map as a point with linear rather than angular coordinates.

                Modern ballistic calculators of tanks and self-propelled guns operate with the coordinates of the projectile in the barrel, and not with the coordinates of the armored vehicles themselves.
                1. +1
                  15 October 2019 22: 30
                  Quote: Operator
                  When did the US Army manage to engage in combined-arms combat using laser targeting devices? laughing

                  Have you heard of an ATGM like "Helfair"?

                  Quote: Operator
                  The location of the firing position / target is determined on the electronic map as a point with linear rather than angular coordinates.


                  Only if the target itself helpfully tells you its coordinates.
                  And since they were initially angular, directional and range from the observation post. Well, or two directional with paired observation. Or three for sound reconnaissance

                  Consequently, in the simplest case, the errors in determining the coordinates of the target include errors in determining the coordinates of the NP, errors in determining the range and errors in determining the direction. Moreover, the lion's share of the latter are orientation errors. That is, the difference between the "zero" of the device and the vertical lines of the coordinate grid.


                  Quote: Operator
                  Modern ballistic calculators of tanks and self-propelled guns operate with projectile coordinates in the barrel

                  ?
                  You are very, very confusing something

                  Firstly, the difference between a tank's ballistic computer and an ASUNO SPG is huge. For the first is designed to serve direct fire, and the second - firing according to calculated data. In common parlance, "shooting with the PDO"

                  Secondly, modern ASUNOs operate precisely with the coordinates of the self-propelled guns and the coordinates of the aiming point assigned to it (which can coincide with the coordinates of the target if the target is point and observed.
                  Knowing this, they calculate topodality, level and topovolot. Having entered the corrections and recalculated the range into the angular magnitude, the sight, the calculated level and turn are obtained, if necessary, the installation of a remote fuse / tube
                  1. +9
                    15 October 2019 22: 53
                    Why mention a specific type of weapon, leaving unanswered the question of conducting at least once the US Army combined arms combat using laser target designators?

                    It is about determining the position of the target on an electronic map by combining the virtual topography of this map with a visible image of the terrain on the screen of an optoelectronic device. After combining, the device itself gives the coordinates of the target. In this case, the device can be in the hands of a ground gunner, on board an UAV or at a ground control station of an UAV. Laser rangefinder, goniometer and level are no longer required.

                    The same is done to determine the position of the firing position of self-propelled guns. Knowing your position (up to the orientation of the longitudinal axis of the platform) and having received target designation, the ballistic computer of the self-propelled guns in the machine will determine the azimuth and elevation angle of the gun without human optics.
                    1. 0
                      16 October 2019 11: 22
                      Quote: Operator
                      Why mention a specific type of weapon

                      Because its most popular modification is equipped with the very semi-active LGSN, which, in your words, is inoperative. And which, with its inoperability, has been actively used and is being used, including in Iraq. Including during combined arms battles

                      Quote: Operator
                      It is about determining the position of the target on an electronic map by combining the virtual topography of this map with a visible image of the terrain on the screen of an optoelectronic device.

                      There are even more angles. And a great many mistakes.

                      Quote: Operator
                      Laser rangefinder, goniometer and level are no longer required.

                      It will require a UAV with a lidar that will map for a very long time, a powerful topographic and geodetic system will be required that can accurately bind the resulting 3D map
                      But even after that, the indicated accuracy is achievable only in advertising booklets.

                      Quote: Operator
                      right up to the orientation of the longitudinal axis of the platform

                      I'm afraid this "orientation" cannot be calculated by your method laughing
  6. +2
    15 October 2019 18: 12
    The term gauge implies the diameter of the barrel between opposing fields (rifling - in the rifled and the walls in the smoothbore barrel.

    In Russia, the barrel gauge is measured between opposing fields (d).
    In sov - in the USA (read NATO), the caliber is determined from the depth of the rifling to the opposite depth of the rifling (e).
    Therefore, the caliber of 152,4 mm with us and 155 mm with them is the same thing. The difference between the shells in the leading belts is ours "soft copper, which when deformed, deforms and takes the form of a barrel with rifled, and NATO has shells with a steel leading belt, with finished rifled, which" is inserted into the rifling when loaded.
    1. 0
      15 October 2019 23: 02
      Pimpy just obliged you to put a dozen pluses for such an excellent comment :).
  7. 0
    15 October 2019 19: 03
    Strange article. They wrote that Krasnopol is in Top5, but for some reason they forgot about Ukrainian Kvitnik, which is almost a twin, because both grew from the USSR with minimal changes. We had to replace the GOS, they had to replace the shell itself.
    1. +1
      15 October 2019 19: 36
      Quote: arkadiyssk
      Strange article. They wrote that Krasnopol is in Top5, but for some reason they forgot about Ukrainian Kvitnik, which is almost a twin, because both grew from the USSR with minimal changes. We had to replace the GOS, they had to replace the shell itself.


      "Kvitnik" is still too little distribution, made on the basis of the developments of "Krasnopol", it was supposed to go into mass production in 2018, but it is not known whether it went. There are not all guided and unguided projectiles.
  8. 0
    15 October 2019 22: 52
    Krasnopol heard that it also costs around $ 35 thousand.
    problems
    1. the need for backlighting (risk to life), remember our gunner whose barmalei in Syria
    2. speed of reaction to the target, i.e. got the goal, do you need someone to get on line of sight and highlight how much time will pass?
    3. the laser beam has a bunch of weather restrictions, especially since many on the field have laser radiation sensors and automatically launch a smoke screen
    4. short range compared to competitors. 4 times more installations are needed to cover the same radius.
    5. the probability of defeat to guarantee 3 shells at a target of $ 100 is normal?

    For its time, the projectile was a breakthrough, but how many years have passed? 40! Therefore, it is not surprising that he is outdated and needs to be replaced / replenished with a long arm. We have the same glonass, we could implement an analogue.
  9. 0
    15 October 2019 23: 02
    "The undoubted advantage of Krasnopol is the price, which is almost two times lower" - although it flies twice as close as compared to Excalibur. "Copperhead" - the USA tested it in 1975 and "Krasnopl" began development in the 1990s - a lag of 15-20 years.
    1. 0
      16 October 2019 11: 36
      Quote: kutuz
      lag 15-20 years.

      There is no lag. They "Copperhead" were forced to additionally equip with a passive IR sensor.
      Well, the firing range here is generally not at work.
  10. 0
    16 October 2019 08: 49
    And what about Russian satellite-guided missiles?
  11. +9
    16 October 2019 11: 27
    Quote: Spade
    powerful topographic and geodetic system

    Under the name "gunner's eyes" - for me, for example, just to spit precisely to orient the map on the smartphone screen in the direction of my gaze.
  12. 0
    16 October 2019 21: 26
    I forgot to write about the characteristics. Krasnopol can hit both moving targets and stationary ones, but with amer's snags - when using GPS - only stationary ones with RELIABLY reconnoitered coordinates and in the presence of system satellites (they do not fly everywhere, and breaks increase with distance from the equator). Cophead is an analogue of Krasnopol (also for a highlighted target, and these are 2 fighters with a laser designator and a firing coordination system). The last developed blok-III were not intended to engage a target, but to scatter reconnaissance sensors in a designated area (intersection and determination of a vehicle and their number, or a foot column). But an ordinary cassette one can cope with this task. You don't need to spend $ 50000 per shot. Therefore, Bofors 155mm BONUS / SMArt 155 may be of the greatest interest. When its combat elements fall, they scan an area (road or terrain) measuring 300 x 40-60 m. Scanning begins at about 200 m and falls at a speed of about 50 m / s. Each combat element is equipped with an IR sensor and a laser target profile locator. In short, it should "see" the silhouette of the tank and its characteristic heat output several times in 3,5 seconds, after which, starting from a height of 150 m, it works to destroy the target (it penetrates, according to American experts, up to 200mm at 90 degrees to the surface, which in Russian is Highly likely, but not a fact). We have similar PSUs, but that's a different story. And with these there are ways to fight - false positions mixed with real, but with a stronger thermal field; the movement of the columns should be covered with electronic warfare and counter-battery warfare on duty.
  13. 0
    7 December 2019 09: 48
    Thanks to the author, of course. But the article did not like. A lot of mistakes, the conclusions made by the author mislead readers. And now the specifics ...
  14. 0
    7 December 2019 10: 36
    "low velocity of the initial shot". There is no such thing. The author probably wanted to say the muzzle velocity of the projectile. When it comes to the UAS of the OF39 type, then it is not the gunner, but the rangefinder, who points it at the target. And it is not at all necessary to highlight the target throughout the entire flight time of the projectile, the LCD turns on when the projectile approaches the target. In addition, UAV illumination has already been fully implemented. Talking about the effectiveness of projectiles with GPS guidance is generally not worth it .... Having a device with the ability to intelligently distort the navigation field, it is not difficult to reject the projectile even at 500 meters. VTB is good because it works according to the principle “the Volga hit the tank and broke it”, and did not fall 5 meters from the tank ... Regarding “the deviation from the target was reduced from 80m to 30m”. This is also an absolutely false statement. The author probably wanted to say about the deviation of the point of impact of the projectile from the center of dispersion of the projectiles ... Yes, the improvement of the shape of the projectile and the uniformity in manufacture can influence the phenomenon of dispersion. And finally. Aiming a projectile at a target by a satellite is a dead-end direction in the development of the UAS. It seems that the author took the information from Wikipedia. And there, not a single characteristic of "Krasnopol" does not correspond to reality, with the exception of the country of origin.
  15. 0
    10 December 2019 22: 06
    I don’t know why in most countries the caliber is 155 mm, and we have 152 mm

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