Military Review

Intelligence service. The first three months of 1941

171
In the previous part intelligence materials were reviewed (Goals Difference) about the German troops at the end of the 1940 year. These RM overestimated the total number of German troops, including those concentrated near our border. Based on the overestimated number of troops in the General Staff, they made the erroneous conclusion that Germany would allocate 173 divisions to attack the USSR.


Intelligence service. The first three months of 1941


The following abbreviations will be used in this article: AK - army corps, ap - artillery regiment, IN - military district, gsd - mountain rifle division, GU - Headquarters, cd (kbr, kn) - cavalry division (brigade, regiment), md (mp) - motorized division (regiment), pd (pp) - infantry division (regiment), Ro - headquarters intelligence department, RU - Reconnaissance of the General Staff of the spacecraft, td (tbr, mn, tb) - tank division (brigade, regiment, battalion).

Intelligence information of the NKVD of the USSR in the 1940 year


Messages began to appear that the reconnaissance of the border troops had RM more accurate than RM RU. The materials of the series “Unexpected War ...” showed that the intelligence services of NPOs, NKVD and the NKGB (from March 1941) provided RM in the Republic of Uzbekistan (before 7.40 - the 5th Directorate of NPOs) on the armed forces of foreign countries. RU summarized the information provided by the Republic of Moldova, prepared reports, sent them to the leaders of the USSR, NPOs, NKVD and VO (in the part concerning them). In addition to the indicated cycle of the Republic of Moldova, there was an exchange of materials between the headquarters of the HE and the border districts, between the headquarters of the armies and border detachments, etc.

The reconnaissance of the border troops used the same basic methods of obtaining information as the RU: visual observation and collection of information during conversations. One of the sources of information for reconnaissance of border troops was the reconnaissance of border violators.

At the end of 1939, information appeared that under the guise of deserters from the German army, German agents could be sent to us (4.12.39):
According to our data, the Gestapo is preparing the transfer to the territory of the USSR of a group of its agents who graduated from a special intelligence school in Linz ... It is possible that these persons will be abandoned in the USSR under the guise of deserters from the German army who fled due to persecution for revolutionary activity.


Therefore, information from border violators should have been treated with suspicion, because she could be planted by the Germans.

Data on numbering units or on the number of divisions in the published NKVD RM for the 1940 year are not common. Check the reliability of the RM NKVD. 14.7.40 was prepared NKVD Memorandum:
Recently, newly arrived units of the German army are marked:
in the city of Yaroslav (20 km to the north of Przemysl) - the 39-th settlement and the 116-th up;
in the city of Rzeszow (60 km northwest of Peremyshl) - 129 th ...
in the city of Przhevorsk (40 km northwest of Peremyshl) - the 192 th point, the 44 th heavy unit ...
Deputy People's Commissar of Internal Affairs of the USSR Lt. Gen. Maslennikov.


39-th PP was part of the 26-th PD, which from May 1940 to May 1941 was in France and Belgium.

116-th up was part of the 5-th, which will arrive in Poland only in September 1940. Therefore, the 116-th AP could not be near our border until the 14.7.40 g. At this time, even in the General Staff of the ground forces could not know that after 6.9.40 a new group of divisions will be sent to the Soviet-German border.

129-th paragraph did not exist and information about it can only be thrown up by misinformation.

The 192-th point (56-th front) has been in Belgium since May 1940. After 6.9.40, he will arrive in the area of ​​the city of Lodz.

The 44 th heavy up in May of the 1940 of the year was part of the 8 th AK. Further, until the spring of 1941, there is no information about him. Suppose that the 44-th up in July 1940 is located in Poland. In this case, the information in the RM is confirmed only by 20%, and 80% of the data on the numbering shelves is misinformation. The same amount of misinformation is contained in license plates in RM RU.

Help GUGB NKVD (6.11.40 g.):
During operations in France, the German command held in East Prussia and former Poland up to 27 front ... [according to RM RU also 27 divisions. - Note auth.]

After the surrender of France, the German command began in early July 1940, the mass transfer of troops from west to east and south-east, with the result that concentrated in East Prussia and former Poland:

until July 16 - until 40 pd and above 2 pt [according to RM RU - 40 pp, to 2 pd, brd, tp and 6 tb. - Note auth.];

on July 23 - up to 50 pd and above 4 pd [according to RM RU - up to 50 pp, two tbp, two tp and 6 tb. - Note auth.];

on August 8 - until 54, and until 6, etc.


According to RM RU - up to 52 PD, 2 MD, one TD, two TBR, 5 TP and 3 TB. In fact, so on, 2-xs and 5-xs were not. No TB information. Most likely, they did not exist either.

The Help contains information about the troops at the border, which is close to the data of RU. Therefore, the NKVD RM in the second half of the 1940 year did not coincide with the information that was included in the RU reports.

RM about German troops at the beginning of the 1941 year


In the previously considered RM RU and RO ZAPOVO regarding license plate parts contained up to 80% misinformation. Maybe at the beginning of 1941, the amount of misinformation decreased? To answer this question, we analyze the information from the first RU report (in the West) in 1941.

Intelligence No. 1 RU:
“... Changes in the grouping of German troops in East Prussia and in the territory of the former Poland for the period from 15.11.40 to 1.2.41 ... In Velau, the headquarters of 192 front was marked; in Koenigsberg - the headquarters of 4 front; in Suwalki - the headquarters of 12 front ... "


The 192th Front never existed. In the wording there is no annotation that the information needs to be clarified or verified. Therefore, this is verified information or in other language - competent misinformation of the German command.

The 4-th with 15.8.40 is undergoing reorganization into the 14-th etc. in Germany. 14 I will be in Germany until March 1941, and will continue to be celebrated in Hungary. Could not be the 4-th front in Koenigsberg - this is again the misinformation of the German command.

Further, in the Republic of Moldova, the wording “the presence of ... a division (regiment) ... is not confirmed". The intelligence unit monitors the military unit for a certain time, but at some time its presence is not confirmed - it supposedly was relocated.

12-I before 10.3.41, is located in France. It is clear that its headquarters at this time cannot be located on the Soviet-German border far from its units.

“According to the data of the ZapOVO headquarters RO, 10 frontier was relocated to the areas of Ostrow, Rozhan, Govorova ...”


Once upon a time there was 10 I in one area and suddenly moved to another area - a common thing ... Only 10 I with 23.9.40 will remain in Germany until April 1941. In Moldova, information on the presence of four divisions is not true.

“In the Goldap region, 7 TP is celebrated ...” 7-th TP is located since 10.40 in the city of Reims (France), and later in the city of Dijon (France). The 7th TP is part of the 10th TD, which is located in France until the end of the 1940. From January 41, it will be redeployed to Germany, from where it will arrive at the border in June 1941.

“According to RO Zapovo, in December they left southward from the Ostroleka region ... 662 pp, 110 up, kp, 68 SS…”


662-th PP disbanded 8.8.40 g. And therefore could not be in Poland. Only a group of military men with fake badges on shoulder straps could go somewhere.

The 110-th up was part of the AK gain, and it was not possible to find where it was in the indicated period. We will consider that RM on the regiment were confirmed.

In the Wehrmacht at that time, there were only four CPs that were part of the 1 cd. They were in their places of deployment. The presence of a multitude of knots in the Republic of Moldova is a deso. We will talk about cavalry in the part devoted to mobile troops.

68 th TP SS did not exist. There was no 68 SS regiment.

Of the four mentions of the shelves, only the 110 ap.

“From the Warsaw, Rembert region in the south and south-east direction, 48, 57, 67, 68, l 05, 135, 171, 178, 225, 529 and 600 pp, 1, 584 and 660 up; from Pruszkow - 106 pp and from Rozhan 458 pp ... "


The 48th and 57th paragraphs were part of the 12th and 9th sections, respectively, which were in France until March 1941.

The 67th and 68th pp from the 23th pd, which is located in East Prussia. PM can be considered confirmed.

The 105-th settlement from the 72-th front, which is located in France before 1.1.41, and then will be relocated to Romania. Accordingly, the territory of Poland 105-th pp could not get.

The 135-th settlement from the 45-th front, which is located in Belgium until 1.2.41. RM did not confirm.

The 171th, 178th and 529th pp from the 56th, 76th and 299th respectively, which were located in Poland. RM confirmed.

The 225th and 600th pp did not exist.

1-th up was part of the 1-th front, which is located in East Prussia.

584 th up not found. It is only known that in April 1944 of the year there was a spare 584-th up. We believe that intelligence correctly tracked this up.

600-th up did not exist.

106-th PP was part of the 15-th PD, which from August 1940 to June 1941 was located in the city of Dijon (France).

The 458-th PP was part of the 258-th PD, which has been located in Poland since July 1940. RM confirmed.

Of the 16 references to numbering shelves, only eight can be reliable.

“At the end of December, 10 CP arrived in Deblin. In the Sokolow district marked 208 front and in the Radzyn district headquarters 40 front ... "


10-th CP did not exist.

208-I is located in the city of Calais (France) from August 1940 to January 1942 of the year.

40-I PD never existed, but it will be observed by our intelligence in June 1941.

“62 and 552 pp arrived in the Biala Podlaska region ...”


62-th sub-structure of the 7-th front, which until 14.4.41 g. Will be deployed in Northern France.

The 552-th PP along with the 279-th PD will be disbanded in July 1940. Only in December 1941 of the year will it be formed again along with the 329-th front.

“According to the RO of the KOVO headquarters, from Kielce, Krakow went to an unknown destination 3 and 12 etc., ... 221 PD ...”


3-th is located on the territory of Germany from 15.8.40 to 7.4.41, and its parts cannot simply disappear from the territory of Poland somewhere.

12-th is formed in the city of Stettin (distance to the border of 467 km), which since October 1939 of the year has been the territory of Germany. The minimum distance from the cities of Kielce - Krakow to Stettin is 501 km. Parts of the 12 th cannot be located in the indicated area. 12-I will be in Stettin until 15.4.41

221 is on vacation until January 1941. Then it is deployed again in Germany (8-th VO) until March 1941 year.

“From the region of Yaroslav, Przemysl, Przhevorsk, departed: headquarters 2 MD, 8, 29 MP, ... 112 CP, 9 PP, units of 50 and 146 PP ...”


The 2 md from 5.10.40 to 10.1.41 was reorganized into the 12 md and therefore could not decrease anywhere from Southern Poland.

The 8th and 29th MPs were part of the 3th MD, which was located in Germany from 23.9.40 to May 1941.

112-th CP did not exist.

9-th settlement from the 23-th front, which was located on the territory of East Prussia. 9-th pp could not be in southern Poland.

The 50-th point from November 1940 to April 1941 of the year together with the 111-th point will be located in the city of Fallingbostel (Germany).

The formation of the 146 th point will begin only on 11.7.42.

“From the region of Jaslo, Sanok, Krosno, 239 lost with 239, 237 and 372 pp ...”


The personnel of the 239-th front since July 1940 year is on vacation. The deployment of the division will begin in January 1941 in the 8 md (Germany), and 4.4.41 it will appear in Romania. The division included the 327, 372 and 444 points.

239-th PP was part of the 106-th PD, which at that time was located in the city of Wahn (Germany).

237-th pp did not exist. It is possible that servicemen from the 327-th regiment depicted the 237-th regiment, reversing the signs on uniform. Only information on the 372 regiment matched.

“From the Hrubieszów region, Zamoеć, 55 items, 72 and 93 items went down ...”


55-th PP was part of the 17-th PD, which until May 1941 was in France.

72-th and 93-th CP did not exist.

“The availability data did not confirm: 23 PD in the Kholm region; 11 front headquarters in the Jaslo area; 39, 342 PP and 116 up in Yaroslav; 102 pp and 48 up in the Przhevorsk region. ”


Since the summer of the 23, 1940 is located in East Prussia.

11-I until March 1941 year will be in France.

39-th PP from the 26-th Front, which until May 1941 will be in Belgium.

342-th PP (231-th Front) disbanded 31.7.40

116-th up was part of the 5-th, which was in Poland until January 1941. PM are confirmed.

The 102-th PP as part of the 24-th PD will be located in the city of Elda (Germany) from August 1940 to 23.3.41.

48-th up from the 12-th front will be in France until 10.4.41

“Not marked: in Lansut - 302 and 315 pp; in Krakow - the headquarters of the 4 and 7 traffic police; in Lublin - 132 and 353 pp ... "


302-th PP from the 231-th Front, which 31.7.40 was disbanded.

The 315-th PP from the 167-th PD, which is located in France from September 1940 to January 1941. Next, she will be relocated to Bavaria, which will be in May 1941 year.

From October 4 to February 1940 of the 1941 of the year XNUMX is located in Germany. Further, she will be relocated to Bulgaria, in which she will meet the beginning of the war with Yugoslavia.

The 7 I-DSS will not be formed until December 1941.

132-th PP of the 44-th Front This division will remain in France until March 1941.

353-th PP from the 205-th Front, which will be in France until January 1942.

“The arrival of 168 frontier in the Kielce region was recorded as part of 571, 650 and 652 points and, presumably, 529 up. 175 front, deployed in Zamosc, is motorized ... "


The 168-th front included the 417-th, 429-th and 442-th points, as well as the 248-th up. The division has been in Poland since the summer of 1940. It did not include the 571, 650, 652, and 529.

The 571-th subdivision was part of the 302-th pd, which will be formed in Germany (2-th VO) from 12.11.40, and then will go to France.

The 650th and 652th pp of the 372th pd, which was disbanded in July 1940 of the year. 529-th up never existed.

Also, there was no 175 Id. Information on the motorization of a non-existent division can only be misinformation of the German command.

“567 and 590 pp were marked in Tomaszow ...”


567-th PP was part of the 270-th PD, which was disbanded in the summer of 1940. It will be newly formed 21.4.42 g.

590-th PP from the 321-th PD, which was formed in December 1940 of the year in the 9-m VO (Germany). Since January 1941, the division arrived in the city of Boulogne (France).

“Additional mobilization and the formation of new formations ... As a result of this event, the number of divisions of the German army by the spring of 1941 could be brought up to 250-260, 20, and 15 MD ...”


In total, the number of German divisions is 285-295.

In the Republic of Moldova there are 69 references to license plate parts and CP. RM can be considered confirmed only 14. 80% license plate information is German misinformation. The same ratio was found in the Republic of Moldova for July, August and September of 1940. When in four RMs, spaced in time, there is a comparable amount of desa in the license plate parts, then this looks like a pattern ...

Special message NKGB USSR (31.3.41 g.):
The 316th regiment arrived and was stationed in Komarovo ... In the last days of December 1940, the 525th regiment moved from the city of Sandomierz through Ostrovets. 9.3.41, to the village of Koroshchin, Byala-Podlaska Uyezd, the settlement arrived at No. 584. The horse-machine gun team is located in the same village. On the shoulder straps of officers and soldiers of the team there is No. 17


316-th PP is part of the 212-th PD, which will be located on the English Channel until June 1941. 525-th up did not exist.

The 584-th sub-unit (the formation of the regiment began on 15.11.40) was part of the 319-th sub-base, which in December 1940 completed its formation and headed to Normandy. Where it was before the Allied landing operation in the 1944 year.

The marks on the shoulder straps of the machine gun team may correspond to the 17 th point. 17-th PP was part of the 31-th PD, which arrived in Poland since September 1940. If the scouts subsequently concluded that there was an 17-th sub, then the RM in terms of numbering regiments were confirmed at 25%. In this case, the amount of misinformation was 75%.

The figure shows a graph of the concentration of German divisions at the Soviet-German border. The decrease in the number of German troops in the figure is due to the movement of divisions to the Balkans and to the territory of Romania.



The main mistake of the General Staff of the spacecraft?


It was previously shown that in the Republic of Moldova the total number of divisions in the German armed forces was constantly overstated. It was shown above that the NKVD information on German troops coincided with the RU data.



Based on intelligence estimates of availability 243 divisions, in the Note of the People's Commissar of Defense of the USSR and the chief of the General Staff of the SC (18.9.40 g.) it was determined that "to 173 divisions ... will be directed against our borders". In the options considered by the General Staff for the outbreak of war with Germany, the number of German divisions is estimated by the number 160 ... 180 ... 188. At the same time, the presence of a German group on the territory of Romania, which at that time did not exist, was not taken into account. The note was submitted by I.V. Stalin and 5.10.40 received instructions to clarify it. An updated Note was prepared in October 1940 of the year:
«
I am reporting for your approval the main conclusions from your instructions given on October 5 of 1940 when considering plans for the strategic deployment of the USSR Armed Forces for the 1941 year ... "


It is possible that on the basis of the updated Note by the People’s Commissar of Defense and the Chief of the General Staff at HE headquarters, documents were prepared on the deployment of districts in case of war. For example, a note on the deployment plan for the 1940 year is being prepared at KOVO. The exact date for preparing this document is unknown. Let's try to clarify the time of its compilation.

The Note by the Chief of Staff of the KOVO states: “group gene. Blaskovitsa (most of it is already in Romania); group gene. Reichenau (on the border with Yugoslavia)».

In RM RU from 30.10.40, it is said:
As of 29.10, it has been transferred: to Romania - except for the training division - 3 pd, td, md ... Arrival of troops continues ...
The previously established army groups of Colonel General Blaskowitz ... and Field Marshal Reichenau ... carry out the advancement in the south-east direction and, as you can judge, are focusing: the army group Blaskowitz - in Romania ... and the army group Reichenau - on the Yugoslav border ...


In the RU report (9.11.40 g.) It is noted:
According to new reports ... the army of Colonel General Blaskowitz ... finished my concentration in Romania ... in the latter by now 15-17 divisions ... "


It turns out that most of the group of General Blaskowitz was transferred to Romania in early November 1940. Consequently, the Note was prepared at the same time. In a note by General M.A. Purkayev the total number of German troops is estimated by the number over 250 divisionsof which against the USSR can be put up to 166. In the considered variants of the initial period of the war, the maximum number of German divisions put up against the USSR (including the territory of Romania) can be 178 ... 190.

The discrepancy between the maximum number of German divisions and divisions concentrated for war with the USSR, in the Notes of the General Staff and the headquarters of the KOVO can be explained:
- or clarification of the German group when discussing the document with Stalin;
- or the development of the Notes was carried out independently of each other (the most likely option).

It can be seen from the documents presented that the leadership of the KA and the KOVO Military Council are trying to estimate the number of German troops deployed against the USSR and the KOVO, and they are also trying to predict the options for starting military operations. The number of German divisions put up in the initial period of the war against the USSR is estimated by a number of at least 166 ... 173.

At the end of December 1940, in Moscow, a meeting of the highest command staff of the spacecraft is held. Many different reports explaining how German generals fought. The speakers explain many points in sufficient detail. The people reading these materials should have a question: why did all the senior commandos forget everything that was said at the meeting before 22.6.41? Or is it easier to use the version voiced by many top-ranking military officers that Stalin alone is to blame? And how many German troops were in the scenarios of the war games that took place in early January 1941 after the end of the meeting?

There were almost as many of them as were considered in the Note from 18.9.40 to 173 German divisions, and about 120 were concentrated near our border by June 22. In a variant of one of the games, the number was also used. 180 German divisions:
The documents of the first game indicated that the North-Eastern and Eastern fronts of the "Western" (up to 60 front), operating north of Deblin to the Baltic Sea, launched an offensive "in the interests of the main operation", carried out south of Brest, where they are deployed the main forces of the "West" - up to 120 front, and together with their allies - up to 160 infantry divisions ...


14.2.41, in RM RU it is said about an increase in the number of German divisions: “[By] according to the Yugoslav General Staff, Germany now has 250 divisions ... "

11.3.41, the number of divisions is again increasing in RM RU “1.3.41 Germany has 263 divisions”. According to intelligence, compared with September 1940, the size of the German army increased by 20 divisions.

The Plan of the General Staff of the Spacecraft on the strategic deployment of the Armed Forces of the Soviet Union in the West and East (11.03.41) refers to the close number of divisions in Germany "to 260". The Plan further states that “to 200 divisions ... will be directed against our borders... »

Everything is logical: the Germans have increased the number of divisions and, therefore, Germany can send more divisions to war with a strong spacecraft. It only bothers that the plans of the General Staff are somewhat behind the data of the RU. In the latest RMs, it is called "263 divisions", and in the General Staff they operate with older information about 260 divisions.

Don't you find that the number of 200 is significantly different from the number of 120 divisions concentrated at the border by 22.6.41? Do you think that by June 1941, the General Staffists had suddenly seen their light and realized that the Germans would attack, having only about 120 divisions?

In the fall of 1940, the general staff assesses the number of German divisions for the war with the USSR 173. In January 1941, games are held with the 173-180 spacecraft opposed to German divisions. In the same period, intelligence reports on the increase in the size of the German army, and, consequently, the number of troops allocated for the war with the Soviet Union should increase. In the document of the General Staff from 11.3.41 this number is increased to 200 divisions. The next step should be to take this mass of troops into account when developing Cover Plans ...

The Directive of the People's Commissar of Defense of the USSR and the Chief of the General Staff of the Spacecraft to the commander of the Western Command, Colonel-General D.G. Pavlov. There is no exact date for this Directive, but the approximate time for its preparation is indicated - April 1941 of the year. April is later than 11 of March ... What does the Directive say?

Order to proceed to develop a plan operational deployment of ZAPOVO armies, guided by the following guidelines ... In the event of a war with us, Germany, of its 225 infantry, 20 tank and 15 motorized divisions, will be able to direct against our borders to 200 divisions...


Even a month later, the material stated in the General Staff Plan of the 11.3.41 is quoted verbatim. When developing the Plans, one should be guided by the direction against the USSR to the 200 divisions! And why do literary men tell us that all our military men know that 120 German divisions are enough? Perhaps later in the General Staff the number of 120 German divisions treasured for a number of writers will be enlightened and called?

We look at a well-known document - a draft Note by the USSR people's commissar of defense and the chief of the General Staff of the spacecraft, which was compiled after May 15.



And after 65 days, when developing a new document on the deployment of troops in the General Staff, the number of German divisions allocated for an attack on the USSR is used: significantly more than 120! The number of divisions was reduced to 180, but in the original version it was 189 divisions. And now question: what group of German troops in the initial period of the war should the forces of PribOVO, ZAPOVO, KOVO and OdVO have to resist? Of course, 180 to German divisions, which are considered at the General Staff after 15 on May 1941 of the year! And regarding this number of German troops, plans must be developed for covering these VOs!

Directives from the General Staff on the development of new “Cover Plans ...” KOVO and OdVO were obliged to take into account this vision of the General Staff, as These Directives were prepared in early May. Both Directives have the same mark: "Done in 2 copies. No. 1 - KOVO [or OdVO. - Note ed.], No. 2 - into the case of the Oper of the General Staff. Performed and printed by Major General Anisov. " Copy certified by deputy. "Chief of Staff of the General Staff of the SC Major General Anisov 7 May 1941 g.". Most likely, both Directives left in the first ten days of May.

A similar Directive went to ZAPOV until May 15. This follows from the fact that an extract from the indicated Directive of the General Staff was sent to the commander of the 3 Army from the headquarters of the ZNUMX ZAPOV.

There are recollections of war veterans that with them at the General Staff before sending the Directives to develop cover plans for a long time all issues were worked out. In other words, the representatives of the districts in the General Staff worked out the deployment of their troops and their actions in the initial period of the war, based on the number of German troops at the border up to 180 divisions.

The draft Cover Plans for PribOVO included information on the maximum number of German troops:
The railway network ... already on the 12 day of mobilization provides concentration to 40 reinforced detachments, and the developed network of dirt roads and the presence of a motorway allow the transfer of motorized and mechanized troops, the number of which against Pribovo can be determined up to 6 TD and 2-3 MD ...


Thus, according to the assessment of the headquarters of PribOV it is possible to concentrate German troops up to 48-49 against the troops of the district. By June 22, in the area of ​​responsibility of the PribOVO intelligence, there will actually be 40. Only according to intelligence of the RU and RO headquarters of the district at the border there were only 24. A significant part of this amount is dispersed far enough from the border. About 50% of divisions are not enough up to the maximum number of troops ...

On the entire Soviet-German border November 21.6.41, XNUMX before 180 German divisions 31% connections were still missing. Therefore, the German generals should not have started the war on June 22. But the Soviet command did not assume that the German command required a significantly smaller number of troops to defeat the border group of spacecraft ...

Error in reassessing the capabilities of the spacecraft and the required number of German divisions to attack the USSR was one of the two biggest mistakes that led to the unexpected attack for the leadership of the Soviet Union and the spacecraft.

Second by mistake, which led to the same consequences, were incorrect PM, which came from our intelligence. We will continue to consider this issue further.

Many advanced VO members could be puzzled by the forcing through June 22 of Directive No.3 of Stalin by the people's commissar of defense and the chief of the General Staff, and G.K. Zhukov's urgent departure to KOVO to organize an attack on Lublin. During this period, the chief of the General Staff is fully confident in the Republic of Moldova, which was represented by the General Staff of the Spacecraft until June 22. According to RU, by 21.6.41 the number of German divisions in the Lublin-Krakow region was 35-36. True, in a day the RU will significantly overestimate this grouping, referring to some new RM. According to the author - fictional. The same fictitious information as added to the summary about the SS on the Suvalka ledge. Information that is obtained from rumors and not confirmed within a month. The same information taken from the air about the availability of up to 14 divisions on the border of Slovakia and Hungary ...

So where did the Chief of the General Staff rush off on 22 on June? And the answer is in the famous Note of General M.A. Purkaeva:
Deployment Dates.
1. Lublin grouping: a) in the border strip at a distance of up to 250 km are deployed - 10 pd, 2 td, 2 md ...; b) the capacity of the trains leading to the Vistula River - 72 pairs, taking into account the optional 48 – 60 pairs, i.e. One division can be transported per day. You need to give 15 – 18 divisions a ride. Conclusion: the grouping in the Lublin district can be completed by 15-18 day from its beginning ...
2. The Krakow group: a) in the border strip at a distance of 250 km, the following are deployed: infantry and mountain divisions up to 20, tank 2, motorized 2; b) the throughput of the railway to the line of the Vistula river is 126 pairs, taking into account the optional rate up to 100 pairs, i.e. makes it possible to drive up to 2 divisions daily. Tank and motor divisions from the Katowice meridian can follow along the ground. It is necessary to give a ride 10 – 15 front. Conclusion: focusing grouping is required 5 – 7 days.


The total number of German divisions in the Lublin-Krakow region, according to the Note, before the start of concentration is up to 38. And according to RU at 21.6.41, there were before 36.

In one of the first parts considered a map with the situation on the eve of the war. The map is posted on the site “Memory of the People” and has a note that the date of its creation is 23.6.41. The figures show fragments of the map that correspond to the German group concentrated in the Lublin-Krakow region. In the figures you can see the areas of deployment up to 30 (one of the divisions was obtained by adding up three tank regiments). Infantry divisions in the cities of Radom and Deblin were not taken into account, because these cities belong to the ZAPOVO responsibility zone. Missing 5-6 divisions (up to the number of divisions indicated in the RM) are deployed in depth beyond the borders of the figures. The chief of the General Staff of the spacecraft was to see a similar map with the deployment of German troops on 21 and 22 on June 1941.





The numbers 38 and 36 are close to each other. But the German command should have been brought up before the 33 divisions ... The chief of the General Staff had to decide for himself that the German group had not yet concentrated for a full-scale war, and the speed of the strike by mechanized corps would allow the German divisions to be march to the border one by one!

Did not know at that time G.K. Zhukov, that the German army had already concentrated completely at the border.

Did not know Chief of the General Staff, that the German generals were going to beat parts of the spacecraft with less force than the General Staff thought about it ...

And the last one. An echo of the expected number of German divisions at the beginning of the war, much larger than 120, can be seen in the first RU intelligence report, which began to be prepared after the 20-00 on June 22: “The enemy for 22.6 introduced significant forces into the battle ... of the entire 50-52 division. However, this amounts to only approximately 30% of the enemy’s forces concentrated towards the front ... "

It turns out that the German command concentrated considerable forces towards the border and only about 30% of them were thrown into battle on June 22. And the maximum number of divisions at the border can reach 173 (100% of 52 divisions). It is strange that the number of 173 divisions coincided with the number of divisions indicated in the Note of 18.9.40.

The author will try to dream further, and fantasies do not require proof. How should the 180 German divisions be distributed along our border?

The enemy could concentrate up to 80 divisions (48-49 against PribOVO) against the forces of PribOVO and ZAPOVO.

The 100 of the remaining German divisions focused on KOVO and OdVO. Of these, on the borders with Slovakia and Hungary - up to 10 divisions. In Romania, up to 20-25 divisions, of which on the southern flank of KOVO 15-18. Then in the Lublin-Krakow region there could be 65-70 of the remaining German divisions.

In addition, according to 1940 estimates, non-German divisions (Italian and Hungarian) could be located in Romania before 20-25. Plus Slovak, Hungarian and Romanian troops. That is why the main blow was expected against the KOVO troops. The version that the southern version of the enemy’s main strike was forced through by the people from KOVO or Stalin has nothing to do with this ...

To be continued ...
Author:
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  1. Nasrat
    Nasrat 15 October 2019 15: 41
    +14


    Each of our divisions is forced to cover a strip with a length of 20-30 kilometers. With such a stretch, the division is not only capable of not advancing - it will not be able to defend itself. Theoretical Soviet instructions admit that in some very special case, an infantry division can hold a front with a length of twenty kilometers ... But in reality, such a defense is possible only in one case - if the enemy is not going to attack at all. The real maximum capacity of a full-fledged rifle division is 10 kilometers. Cadre Division accounting for just over half of its composition(on the issue of mobilization), stretched to a distance three times its ceiling, is absolutely helpless.
    As you can see, on average there are three German divisions per Soviet division. The banal military logic tells us to create numerical superiority in the directions of the main attack. But in our case, it does not smell like any major blows. On average, three German divisions of about 9 thousand people each fall on the front line of the Soviet division of approximately 16 thousand people. Here is a straightforward balance of power. And in the direction of attacks of the tank groups, the balance of forces was such that in the most successful case for the Red Army, on the way of a tank group of 200 thousand people and a thousand tanks there would be a rifle battalion, in which if there are a thousand people, then this is very good. With absolutely terrific luck, a battery of six forty-five was also attached to it.

    All military plans developed in the USSR, all military games, all planning - everything was built around the axiomatic presumption: the Red Army will enter the war completely mobilized ...
    The questions "why is this?" and "what if the Red Army does not have time to turn around?" hang in the air without the slightest hint of an answer. In the event that the deployment of the army was late, and catastrophically late, no Plan B was created.

    Needless to say, in the history of Russia this mistake has become one of the bloodiest.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. VS
      VS 16 October 2019 14: 14
      0
      Quote: Nasr
      Each of our divisions is forced to cover a strip length of 20-30 kilometers

      not so - the average stretch was BEFORE 50 km)) As a result, against the 3 and 4 th TGs of the Germans and stood on ONE of our SD
      Quote: Nasr
      in some very special case, a rifle division can hold a front twenty kilometers long ... But in reality, such a defense is possible only in one case - if the enemy is not going to attack at all.

      to the directions of not the main blows - will go .. taking into account the SDs and the terrain - such as a swamp of a mountain forest - even more so.

      Quote: Nasr
      All military plans developed in the USSR, all military games, all planning - everything was built around the axiomatic presumption: the Red Army will enter the war completely mobilized ...
      The questions "why is this?" and "what if the Red Army does not have time to turn around?" hang in the air without the slightest hint of an answer. In the event that the deployment of the army was late, and catastrophically late, no Plan B was created.

      Needless to say, in the history of Russia this mistake has become one of the bloodiest.


      you put AMAZING questions and answers are easy to find in the "work of the VNU GSh" 18941 - lessons and conclusions "here - https://liewar.ru)))
      but if you ask Isaev, then he will sing to you that this is intelligence and STALIN - he later pressed some red buttons and the armies of the RGC simply did not manage to get out therefore directly to the border and stand shoulder to shoulder next to the border divisions of the armies of the regr. counties)))
  2. bubalik
    bubalik 15 October 2019 17: 24
    +16
    129-th paragraph did not exist and information about it can only be thrown up by misinformation.

    ,,, but what about the Grenz-Infanterie-Regiment 129, (border infantry regiment 129)?
    1. AsmyppoL
      15 October 2019 18: 03
      +13
      Sergey, I'm glad that someone can double-check the information! Thank you very much that the author does not work for the basket))) Of course, you are right and the Grenz-Infanterie-Regiment 129 existed until 15.6.40.
      The source says that the Grenz-Infanterie-Regiment 129 was essentially a battalion. After the defeat of France on 15.6.41, the headquarters of this border regiment became the headquarters of the serf infantry regiment D. In other words, after 15 on June such a regiment did not exist ...

      Probably border guards in this area in the West (12-th VO) were not needed. It seems to me unlikely that servicemen with the signs of this regiment could appear in 60 km northwest of Peremyshl before 14.7.40.

      In addition, in terms of structure, personnel and weapons, an infantry regiment cannot be compared with a border regiment. And the Republic of Moldova speaks of an infantry regiment.

      Therefore, it seems to me that the test in the article "129-th pp did not exist and information about him can only be planted disinformation " fair, because misinformation was manifested in the form of the presence of military personnel with signs of non-existing license plates or units located in the occupied territories in the West or in Germany. Information that distorted the actual location of regiments and divisions.
      Thanks again for the message!
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 15 October 2019 19: 16
        -17
        Quote: AsmyppoL
        Sergey, I'm glad that someone can double-check the information! Thank you very much that the author does not work for the basket))) Of course, you are right and the Grenz-Infanterie-Regiment 129 existed until 15.6.40.

        There is a forgery of the author of the article, which was opened by the reader, and excuses immediately began, although before that the author stated:
        129-th paragraph did not exist and information about it can only be thrown up by misinformation.

        However, there are a lot of such frauds. For example, the author grabs some text and interprets it in a way that is beneficial for him to justify his false conclusions.
        From the report materials
        “Additional mobilization and formation of new compounds ... As a result of this event, the number of divisions of the German army in the spring of 1941 can be brought up to 250-260, 20, etc. and 15 MD ... "

        And the author is simply lying that supposedly there were so many divisions already in the spring of 1941, and does not want to notice the word "may" in the document:
        In total, the number of German divisions is 285-295.

        Any professional perfectly understands that there is a substitution of concepts, because mobilization activities may not be carried out in full and spaced out in time. Therefore, the Intelligence Agency in this case assesses the potential of Germany, and not how many divisions will be really used to attack the USSR.
        I have said more than once that the author is lying brazenly when he says that the German command carried out an operation to misinform the Soviet intelligence by changing the numbers of units on the uniform and buttonholes of the Wehrmacht troops.
        Firstly, the author never presented any evidence that such an event was not carried out on the basis of any plan. In the February Wehrmacht disinformation directive, this is not mentioned at all, i.e. the author’s fantasies are not supported by anything.
        Secondly, the confusion with the signs did not occur due to special disinformation events, but as a result of organized staff events, when others were deployed on the basis of some formations, and the military simply did not have time to change the insignia, which is a common occurrence of staff events. For example, even during the Second World War, there were sailors in the land units, although they were from another people's commissariat:
        With the beginning of the Great Patriotic War of the 1941-1945, the sailors removed from the ships for operations on the shore, all kinds of sailors' commands sent to replenish army units, landing troops and other formations due to the personnel of the fleets but operating under the command of the Ground Forces.

        If you believe in the author's version, then there was disinformation of the German intelligence, because later the myth was born about "black" units in the Red Army.
        Thirdly, I have already said repeatedly that radio intelligence officers do not see the form, and give their data on the callsigns of the nodes and the handwriting of the radio operators, and this is more accurate information about who is opposing.
        However, the author believed in his fantasies so much that he can hardly adequately evaluate what is obvious to any military professional.
        1. RuSFr
          RuSFr 15 October 2019 21: 02
          +15
          As forgery, I see Milchakov's comment. As I understand it, the author of the question is satisfied with the answer.
          But Mister Milchakov’s answer has not yet reached. It's like in a joke about a giraffe.
          Summary of border guards from July 14 to 1940.
          The regiment was reorganized 15 June 1940 years and became known as regiment D.
          Formally, on 14 July, a regiment with the numbers 129 did not exist.

          Shoulder straps of the border regiment, like the uniform, do not correspond to the field guard of the infantry regiment. It is only in the minds of the half-mad lieutenant colonel in the German infantry regiment that the military wear any form that they have left. Like, for example, Papanzhopolla went to a gang ...

          If intelligence has accepted a group of military men in border uniforms for the arrival of an entire regiment of infantry, this is an intelligence mistake. It doesn’t matter what and where she saw or thought of. The infantry regiment is either there or not. Intelligence's job is data accuracy.

          So, that I saw fantasies and undisguised rudeness, as usual, from the direction of Milchakov - a completely dumb brow who could not even read the simplest text
          1. RuSFr
            RuSFr 15 October 2019 21: 03
            +5
            Read and UNDERSTAND. He cannot give any evidence or conduct an analysis.
  3. antivirus
    antivirus 15 October 2019 18: 28
    +2
    The version that the southern version of the enemy’s main strike was forced through by people from KOVO or Stalin has nothing to do with this ...

    - Once again, for all smart people - in Ukraine, all industry (wealth and sweat-blood over the 50 years of development of capital-ma-soc-ma) is sorry for the work of 3 generations.

    I'm not a military man - but-- there is only one conclusion: if you go into the trenches of the entire cover grouping at the border --- THEN THROW THE NKVD AND OWN BODIES FROM THE FRONT FRONT (in the foreground to the border) - who will protect them? border guards rifles? -

    a deliberate sacrifice ("if we were not allowed to turn around, then we are all suicide bombers" - possible thoughts of NGOs and in the GKZh) in June 41, as now the article of the Criminal Code of the sufficiency of self-defense and its excess in a street fight
  4. ccsr
    ccsr 15 October 2019 20: 25
    -13
    AsmyppoL writes:
    The main mistake of the General Staff of the spacecraft?

    It was previously shown that in the Republic of Moldova the total number of divisions in the German armed forces was constantly overstated. It was shown above that the NKVD information on German troops coincided with the RU data.

    Two years ago, this nonsense was denied by one of the authors of the VO in the answer of a certain madam, who posed as a "researcher" of the General Staff's mistakes. I quote in full the answer of this author:
    Quote: Mikhail Zubkov
    The overestimation of the number of German divisions by Soviet sources in Poland and East Prussia from February-March 1941 is understandable. These divisions were not identified by the discovered headquarters, but by the emblems of individual military units — the attribute emblems on the uniforms and equipment of the divisions traditional for the Wehrmacht. Those. the forward regiment of the division was spotted by intelligence, as an already arrived division. Regiments and battalions of different divisions arrived in the border area "in bulk", by echelon, gradually becoming more dense by June 1941. This is not misinformation, but somewhat anticipatory information. In the end, it is not at all accidental that the actual presence of enemy troops only by June almost exactly coincided with the data of our intelligence, which the author will later note, although he called it "a coincidence."

    https://topwar.ru/120030-neozhidannaya-voyna-gitlerovskoy-germanii-s-sssr-chast-2.html
    1. RuSFr
      RuSFr 15 October 2019 20: 51
      +13
      What is the cause-effect relationship for you is higher mathematics
      The link you quote to Mikhail Zubkov is an assumption that needs to be proved.
      You consciously present this assumption as evidence
      Tighten your convolutions and try to prove by the example of three-four-five divisions of the Germans that they arrived within three-four-six months. Given the arrival dates of regiments and divisions.
      Otherwise, we can say that Milchakov is lying again or is leading an unproven nonsense!
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 16 October 2019 19: 32
        -8
        Quote: RuSFr
        What is the cause-effect relationship for you is higher mathematics
        The reference you made to the quote from Mikhail Zubkov is an assumption that needs to be proved.

        Well, what prevented you from refuting Zubkov, when two years ago you scattered in compliments to a certain madam who lied like the author of these statues?
        Write to him in a personal and demand a refutation if you think that he invented it.
        Quote: RuSFr
        Otherwise, we can say that Milchakov is lying again or is leading an unproven nonsense!

        It is you who are talking nonsense, and I understand why you always appear here when the question is about screwing up the Red Army, which defeated your ancestors. You can continue to portray "impartiality", you swindler - all the same professionals will not believe you, no matter what dances you arrange.
        By the way, the author of AsmyppoL wrote that the Wehrmacht on the eve of the war had a little more than 3 thousand units of armored vehicles. Tell it really so, or the author lied - then it will become clear who is lying.
      2. ccsr
        ccsr 17 October 2019 10: 50
        -8
        Quote: RuSFr
        . Given the arrival dates of regiments and divisions.
        Otherwise, we can say that Milchakov is lying again or is leading an unproven nonsense!

        You are talking nonsense, because even during the war, the formation of a new division on the basis of the Great Germany regiment took almost two months - from the beginning of April to the end of May 1942, when the newly created division became part of the corps:
        In April 1942, a decision was made deploy on the base of the regiment "Great Germany" the eponymous motorized division. At this time, the regiment, being in the frontline area near Orel, was restoring its combat effectiveness, replenished with personnel and weapons. At the same time, units were being equipped in Germany that were supposed to be included in the division. Activities for the reorganization of the division were carried out in preparation for the Wehrmacht for the summer offensive of the 1942 year on the southern section of the Eastern Front. At the end of May 1942, all units that were part of Greater Germany were redeployed to the Fatezh region, and the unit itself was included in the 48 Tank Corps of the 4 Tank Army.


        Not only that, the increase of the Wehrmacht in 1940 year according
        Hitler's written directive on the corresponding increase in the army was received 10 September 1940 year.
        Source: https://statehistory.ru/books/5/Igor-Pykhalov_Velikaya-obolgannaya-voyna/36

        from the 155 divisions (October 7) to the 184 divisions (December 21) almost four months have passed since the publication of the directive.
        Learn the materiel, balabol, before getting out with your "smart" thoughts ...
      3. icant007
        icant007 18 October 2019 11: 10
        -2
        But why prove it if the practice of phased redeployment of units and formations is standard for the armed forces of any state in peacetime. Troops are moving to new locations as they are ready (military camps). And there is nothing unusual in crushing divisions into parts.
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 18 October 2019 12: 14
          -6
          Quote: icant007
          And there is nothing unusual in crushing divisions into parts.

          I am glad that you are revealing obvious truths to these profane people - thank you very much, because these clowns made such an idea here that you begin to seriously think about why the materials of these ignoramuses began to appear on VO.
          1. icant007
            icant007 18 October 2019 13: 10
            -3
            Thank you for your kind words. Alas, history now, and military in particular, is fertile ground for the emergence of weeds of conscious mystification and falsification. And sometimes just stupid. The authors pour endless numbers, giving readers the impression of a conscientious approach to business. But in reality, as I said, they don’t see forests behind the trees.
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 18 October 2019 13: 22
              -6
              Quote: icant007
              Alas, history now, and military in particular, is fertile ground for the emergence of weeds of conscious mystification and falsification.

              Quite right, both the author of the article and those who support him with foam at the mouth here are just a typical example of weeds, writing on historical topics any nonsense that comes to their minds. All of them differ, as a rule, in one thing - the lack of knowledge of military affairs and the inability to correctly understand military documents, and hence the dream of reason gives rise to monsters. As a rule, there are no military professionals among this public, and therefore everything that does not fit into their brain is necessarily a lie. For example, any professional knows that the headquarters of a formation, for example, can be located a hundred (or even thousands) of kilometers from their units, and redeployment can take from several days to several months, and this all fits into the brains of any military professional, but only not with this audience. And the fact that even during the war the German division "Great Germany" was formed for almost two months, and on the basis of the regiment located on the Eastern Font, and the rest of the units arrived from Germany, does not say anything to them - this is the level of "experts" here .. ..
              1. icant007
                icant007 18 October 2019 14: 03
                -3
                As a rule, there are no military professionals among this audience, and therefore everything that does not fit into their brain is necessarily a lie

                The question is not that there are no military professionals among them, but that they do not want to learn this very military matter. Acquaintance with the multitude of military-historical literature gives these unscrupulous authors a false idea that they understand the issue. They are pulling some numbers out of context, but they are not ready to take into account all the details and look at the phenomenon systematically.
  5. Operator
    Operator 15 October 2019 22: 02
    -4
    The anonymous author of the article lacks logic - the command of the Red Army was guided by the 180 level of the Wehrmacht divisions (which was confirmed by formal intelligence data) as sufficient to initiate aggression against the USSR and from the point of view of defensive measures it was deep purple that in fact there were 120.
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 16 October 2019 12: 08
      -10
      Quote: Operator
      The anonymous author of the article lacks logic - the command of the Red Army was guided by the 180 level of the Wehrmacht divisions (which was confirmed by formal intelligence data) as sufficient to initiate aggression against the USSR and from the point of view of defensive measures it was deep purple that in fact there were 120.

      You have absolutely correctly stated the essence of all the intelligence materials that were reported to the command of the spacecraft by the General Intelligence Directorate on the eve of the war, which assessed the possibility of the Wehrmacht if the war started. But illiterate people, like the author of the article, blame military intelligence for scrupulously taking into account not only all deployed units, but also Germany’s weapons and supplies to ensure mobilization in the event of a protracted war and heavy losses.
      I'm not talking about the fact that he constantly lies when, for example, in the previous series of articles he stated that the Wehrmacht had a little more than 3 thousand units of armored vehicles, and intelligence allegedly distorted the data towards a larger increase. In fact, Halder 23 December 1940 year noted in his diary that the Wehrmacht had a completely different number of tanks:
      6 trophy tanks 4930 pcs, including ammunition transporters

      If you summarize with German armored vehicles on 22 in June, then it just turns out that the total number was within 9,5-10 thousand units of armored vehicles, i.e. Our intelligence provided absolutely accurate data. But this liar never admits that he was lying to please his customers, and deliberately misleads people, as was the case with the 129 infantry regiment.
      1. Operator
        Operator 16 October 2019 12: 35
        -2
        If we ignore the absurd arguments of the author of the article and proceed to the calculation of the military forces of the aggressor, then the composition of its divisions, tanks and aircraft (taking into account the captured equipment) must necessarily include the corresponding forces of Finland, Slovakia, Hungary and Romania.

        As a result, it will be expected that the combined forces of the aggressor more than cover the notorious level in 180 of German divisions, on which the author was fixated.
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 16 October 2019 20: 14
          -10
          Quote: Operator
          As a result, it will be expected that the combined forces of the aggressor more than cover the notorious level in 180 of German divisions, on which the author was fixated.

          Moreover, the false author AsmyppoL uses only the Yakovlev copy of the abridged summary, which is purely reference material for the leadership of the People’s Commissariat of Defense, and is not an operational document. But what Golikov reported on the real number of divisions in April 1941 of the year, he has no idea:

          By the way, it also indicates the appearance of two army headquarters - this will be a big surprise for the amateur cavl, because he does not believe that intelligence could reveal the appearance of army headquarters in 1941.
  6. cavl
    cavl 16 October 2019 05: 44
    +11
    Quote: ccsr
    Quote: AsmyppoL
    Sergey, I'm glad that someone can double-check the information! Thank you very much that the author does not work for the basket))) Of course, you are right and the Grenz-Infanterie-Regiment 129 existed until 15.6.40.

    There is a forgery of the author of the article, which was opened by the reader, and excuses immediately began, although before that the author stated:
    129-th paragraph did not exist and information about it can only be thrown up by misinformation.

    However, there are a lot of such frauds. For example, the author grabs some text and interprets it in a way that is beneficial for him to justify his false conclusions.
    From the report materials
    “Additional mobilization and formation of new compounds ... As a result of this event, the number of divisions of the German army in the spring of 1941 can be brought up to 250-260, 20, etc. and 15 MD ... "

    And the author is simply lying that supposedly there were so many divisions already in the spring of 1941, and does not want to notice the word "may" in the document:
    In total, the number of German divisions is 285-295.

    Any professional perfectly understands that there is a substitution of concepts, because mobilization activities may not be carried out in full and spaced out in time. Therefore, the Intelligence Agency in this case assesses the potential of Germany, and not how many divisions will be really used to attack the USSR.
    I have said more than once that the author is lying brazenly when he says that the German command carried out an operation to misinform the Soviet intelligence by changing the numbers of units on the uniform and buttonholes of the Wehrmacht troops.
    Firstly, the author never presented any evidence that such an event was not carried out on the basis of any plan. In the February Wehrmacht disinformation directive, this is not mentioned at all, i.e. the author’s fantasies are not supported by anything.
    Secondly, the confusion with the signs did not occur due to special disinformation events, but as a result of organized staff events, when others were deployed on the basis of some formations, and the military simply did not have time to change the insignia, which is a common occurrence of staff events. For example, even during the Second World War, there were sailors in the land units, although they were from another people's commissariat:
    With the beginning of the Great Patriotic War of the 1941-1945, the sailors removed from the ships for operations on the shore, all kinds of sailors' commands sent to replenish army units, landing troops and other formations due to the personnel of the fleets but operating under the command of the Ground Forces.

    If you believe in the author's version, then there was disinformation of the German intelligence, because later the myth was born about "black" units in the Red Army.
    Thirdly, I have already said repeatedly that radio intelligence officers do not see the form, and give their data on the callsigns of the nodes and the handwriting of the radio operators, and this is more accurate information about who is opposing.
    However, the author believed in his fantasies so much that he can hardly adequately evaluate what is obvious to any military professional.


    Quietly by himself Milchakov leads a conversation ...
    You should consult a doctor, Mr. Milchakov ...

    1) I’ve been telling you more than once: give the facts that the radio scouts revealed the presence of the headquarters of mechanized corps, tank groups. No need to shake the air with fabrications! Let's get the facts!

    2) when a person writes that German troops wear any uniforms on the reorganization of units, since according to Milchakov they came from different parts, then there is the amateurish opinion of a typical couch expert!
    Instead of the German order in the ranks, according to Milchakov, there are soldiers with signs of different regiments (often no longer existing), with different colors of edgings. And the fact that our scouts looking at this gang call the presence of different infantry regiments - this is how our intelligence should work. Questions about the mismatch of signs with real regiments should not be assigned to our intelligence, but to the German quartermasters ... What ... Boy, go to school!

    Yes, the first sergeant major looking at such a system would have barked: remove the insignia, rams. And all the soldiers would go without numbers on uniform, as it was allowed! First grader Milchakov, the same sergeant could have been given another order: to sew and put on epaulettes of the coupling without insignia! And they would sew and put on and the signs on the shoulder straps would not be visible! And this, too, was the norm when wearing uniforms in the Wehrmacht. You only need to read more, and not write for adults on the site, what’s going to hit your head !! Go to school already, couch expert.

    3) for stupid repetitions that clever people said. The February directive sets a strategic direction. In other words: WHAT TO DO.
    Specialized services, after pointing above, develop plans: HOW IT SHOULD BE DONE.

    They correctly said that you have a complete lack of analysis and compilation of a causal relationship !!! Therefore, there could not be a point in the February 1941 directive of the year of the items HOW ALL THE LISTED SHOULD BE DONE.
    And after formulating the task of how to do this, downstream services develop plans for whom to send.

    Here are the sofa experts. And they all know, they have been everywhere, but they have no facts. But everyone knows, even knows, what is in the secret archives, and all others cannot understand the "genius" of the experts from the couch ...

    4) where in the article it is written that the author Eugene claims that Germany had 285-295 divisions ?! I flipped through two times and didn’t understand what it was that you were spewing anger about. Maybe your left hemisphere told the right ??
    I see another phrase in the article: "Based on the presence of 200 divisions START development ....."

    You should LEARN to correctly express your thoughts when, boy, you communicate with adults !!!
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 16 October 2019 12: 45
      -10
      Quote: cavl
      Quietly by himself Milchakov leads a conversation ...

      Why are you getting into it then, wise guy?
      Quote: cavl
      1) I’ve been telling you more than once: give the facts that the radio scouts revealed the presence of the headquarters of mechanized corps, tank groups. No need to shake the air with fabrications! Let's get the facts!

      Study the events of the 1939 year carefully so that you do not look like a complete ignoramus when evaluating the activities of radio intelligence in the 1941 year:
      394th Separate Warsaw Red Banner Order of Alexander Nevsky Radio Division OCHNAZ.
      Starting from 25 on August 1939, as a result of the analysis of radio interceptions of the radio division, it became clear that Germany was mobilizing the main forces of the ground army - the radio stations of the armies and German divisions began to be marked in the northern, western and southern regions bordering Poland. As a result of active radio interception in August, the division identified the headquarters of the armies, corps and divisions of the 3, 4, 8, 10 and German Wehrmacht armies located along the Polish border. The active work of the radio stations of the 14 and 1 air fleets was also noted. The troops of the Kiev Special Military District were alerted No. 1. The radio division received a combat mission for round-the-clock radio reconnaissance. In the operations department, under the leadership of Senior Lieutenant G.G. Venediktov, an analysis of radio intercepts of both German and Polish radio stations was arranged. The tasks were set for the reception center and direction finding stations to detect and determine the location of the headquarters of military units of the armed forces of neighboring states. On 31 of August 1939 of the year, an incomprehensible calm was established on the air - the work of only a few radio stations of the German troops was noted. This was immediately reported to the intelligence department of the district headquarters. Everyone was waiting. On September 1 on 1939 of the year, at 4 hours of 45 minutes, fascist German aircraft attacked Polish airfields, communication centers, and economic and administrative centers. Wehrmacht ground forces crossed the border and invaded Poland. The Second World War began.

      https://torgau.ru/?p=74
      Now strain your brains, wise guy, and tell everyone why in 1939, our radio intelligence could open the headquarters of armies, corps and fleets, and in 1941 they couldn’t do it anymore, since you insist on it.

      Quote: cavl
      2) when a person writes that German troops wear any uniforms on the reorganization of units, since according to Milchakov they came from different parts, then there is the amateurish opinion of a typical couch expert!

      You’re lying about verbiage - I talked about the fact that when a new formation (association) was formed on the basis of the old one, separate units could still wear the uniform and emblems of the previous kind of troops, from where they were removed for the new formation. That is why, taking into account the duration of the formation, for some time there was a certain confusion with the determination of the belonging of parts.
      Quote: cavl
      3) for stupid repetitions that clever people said. The February directive sets a strategic direction. In other words: WHAT TO DO.

      And what prevents the clever man from presenting documents here, about what was ordered to make confusion in shoulder straps and buttonholes to deceive Soviet intelligence? Well, where is at least one reference to the fact that this event was actually carried out at least at the army level? And most importantly, how could radio intelligence officers determine the shoulder straps and buttonholes of the formations during direction finding and radio interception? Tell me, "expert", amuse the audience ...
      1. cavl
        cavl 16 October 2019 13: 32
        +9
        In August 1939, the Germans did NOT have to hide their preparations for the war. Hitler needed to get the Dancing corridor. He was satisfied with a peaceful way to solve this problem. Therefore, German troops showed determination and readiness for war.
        Hitler also had correspondence with Chamberlain before the war.
        The Germans passed the ultimatum through the British to the Poles. The outcome was clear: either accepting Hitler’s terms or war.
        The nassals needed Hitler to attack. They assured the Poles that Hitler would not dare to do this. The Germans made weapons.
        Should I explain these basic things to you? Better go to school ...

        If you want to produce any documents, then show them yourself that the radio reconnaissance revealed the headquarters of the motorized corps and tank groups ... Where are they? No need to cheat about archives. If there was something, then it would be reflected in intelligence reports! It is strange that I have to explain elementary things ... I ask this question more than three times ... All the time all sorts of stupidity is answered, except for facts.

        You’re lying about verbiage - I talked about the fact that when a new formation (association) was formed on the basis of the old one, separate units could still wear the uniform and emblems of the previous kind of troops, from where they were removed for the new formation. That is why, taking into account the duration of the formation, for some time there was a certain confusion with the determination of the belonging of parts.

        Give the facts of your notions. In 80 cases from 100 there was no new form ....
        But didn’t it come to German commanders to remove the numbers from the epaulettes or cover them with regular clutches? How did your stupidity get ...
        Go to school wise guy in quotes
        1. cavl
          cavl 16 October 2019 13: 39
          +9
          How did radio intelligence recognize headquarters designations after the benefits of war? You need to read by syllables, then it gets better.
          In intelligence reports written by an agent by and using radio intelligence!

          The agents indicated in which town which headquarters, and the radio intelligence tracked only subscribers! Therefore, the motorized corps were not detected; they were hiding under the headquarters of infantry corps and construction sites. But intelligence did not recognize that the headquarters of the construction sites were the headquarters of the shock groups.
          I rummaged through the materials and found that the headquarters of army group intelligence had not found. These headquarters means also hiding in other parts. They were not discovered by either intelligence intelligence or radio intelligence. Read more and fewer notions to post here
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 16 October 2019 19: 16
            -10
            Quote: cavl
            How did radio intelligence recognize headquarters designations after the benefits of war? You need to read by syllables, then it gets better.

            Silently - by the callsign and the characteristic handwriting of the radio operators. However, if you write down the syllables, you still do not understand the work of radio intelligence.
            Quote: cavl
            The agents indicated in which town which headquarters, and the radio intelligence tracked only subscribers!

            Yeah, we dispersed - right in every settlement in Germany and the occupied city of Poland, we had a radiofeed agent group, and they only transmitted information to the intelligence departments of the districts. Wake up, dreamer - in our country, intelligence agents at the district level often didn’t have agents at all in those places where large headquarters were deployed, and therefore all hope was for radio intelligence and for agents of a strategic link who could receive information from their agents in Berlin, who had what access to documents of the highest headquarters or received oral information.
            Quote: cavl
            But intelligence did not recognize that the headquarters of the construction sites were the headquarters of the shock groups.

            And where is the evidence of these fantasies? Well, at least I brought a link to the documents so that you can understand where your lie was born.
            Quote: cavl
            I rummaged through the materials and found that the headquarters of army group intelligence had not found.

            Lies. First, you did not show a single fact that they were not discovered. Otherwise, you would give a link to the documents.
            Secondly, the army group was not a regular Wehrmacht structure, which is why the main efforts were focused on determining the total number of divisions in the theater of operations, which was reflected in intelligence reports. By the way, both Shaposhnikov in their report and Halder in their diaries operate on the number of enemy divisions, but not armies and not army groups, because they are professionals, not amateurs like you. And they are well aware that the power of the army is determined by the number of combat formations, and not by the number of army headquarters that control them. However, for you this is still a Chinese letter.
            Quote: cavl
            Read more and fewer notions to post here

            It’s you who will make such statements to amateurs, but I immediately realized that you are just a layman in military intelligence, which is why you put forward absurd requirements for its materials.
        2. ccsr
          ccsr 16 October 2019 13: 51
          -10
          Quote: cavl
          In August 1939, the Germans did NOT have to hide their preparations for the war.

          Do not try to dodge verbiage - in 1939 it was much more difficult for radio intelligence to determine the location of the headquarters of the German armies, if only because the radio routes were far from our borders than it was in the 1941 year.
          Quote: cavl
          Hitler also had correspondence with Chamberlain before the war.

          You will conduct political studies in another place - here we are talking about technical capabilities and the capabilities of radio intelligence to open the control system of Wehrmacht units on the eve of the war.

          Quote: cavl
          If you want to produce any documents, then show them yourself that the radio reconnaissance revealed the headquarters of the motorized corps and tank groups ... Where are they?

          Turn to the GRU GSH - let them be declassified for you and the same laymans as you.
          By the way, ask the authors of the article what documents he presented, that the intelligence had mixed everything up and on the basis of which he claims:

          In the previously reviewed RM RU and RO ZAPOVO, part of the license plate numbers contained up to 80% of misinformation.

          So far, apart from a reference to the text of the Yakovlev Foundation and a reference to LJ, he has not submitted a single document where his lie was confirmed.
          Well and especially for such clever people as you present the text from the main source of information of this dreamer:
          Published: Intelligence No. 1 (West). M .: RU GSH RKKA, 1941. C. 3 — 5, 23, 26, 27, 32 — 33, 36 — 37, 48 — 49, 52 — 54. Printing publication. Copy.

          https://alexanderyakovlev.org/fond/issues-doc/1001657
          And now, if you have enough mind, decipher what it means, and how information materials differ from operational ones, so that everyone understands what amateurs undertake to discuss intelligence materials of that time.

          Quote: cavl
          How did your stupidity get ...

          This is what all profane say when they cannot argue with reason. But you burn further "expert", let's see how you get out with the "reliable" sources of the author of the article.
    2. ccsr
      ccsr 16 October 2019 13: 22
      -9
      Quote: cavl
      where in the article is it written that the author Eugene claims that Germany had 285-295 divisions ?! I flipped through two times and didn’t understand what it was that you were spewing anger about. Maybe your left hemisphere told the right ??
      I see another phrase in the article: "Based on the presence of 200 divisions START development ....."

      Here, verbiage:
      In total, the number of German divisions is 285-295.

      Penultimate paragraph of a section
      RM about German troops at the beginning of the 1941 year

      Buy glasses for correcting farsightedness.
      1. cavl
        cavl 17 October 2019 20: 30
        +9
        But you did not read the April intelligence report, where it says that Germany has this number of divisions?
        It turns out that Golikov refutes you. And for people poorly understanding and counting, Eugene simply counted the divisions.
        He has no words that Germany has them. This is you, as usual, lied. And they gave out their words as the words of another person. Fraudsters always do this. Yes?
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 18 October 2019 11: 51
          -6
          Quote: cavl
          But you did not read the April intelligence report, where it says that Germany has this number of divisions?

          Do not dodge, but give a link to a document, and preferably not from the Yakovlev Foundation.
          Quote: cavl
          It turns out that Golikov refutes you.

          He does not refute me, but the deceitful author of the article.
          Quote: cavl
          And for people poorly understanding and counting, Eugene simply counted the divisions.

          Your Eugene is constantly lying, thinking that no one will figure out the numbers, especially since he always hides their origin. Moreover, this amateur does not understand how the information material differs from the operational one, and therefore lies when it interprets certain numbers. This was the case, for example, when calculating Wehrmacht armored vehicles, when he clearly underestimated the numbers.

          Quote: cavl
          Fraudsters always do this. Yes?

          You evaluate it by yourself, because you are a fraudster on trust.
          By the way, where is the decryption of this text:
          Published: Intelligence No. 1 (West). M .: RU GSH RKKA, 1941. C. 3 — 5, 23, 26, 27, 32 — 33, 36 — 37, 48 — 49, 52 — 54. Printing publication. Copy.
      2. cavl
        cavl 18 October 2019 05: 31
        +8
        I did not understand why Milchakov’s explanation was not why soldiers in the German division or regiment supposedly went with different signs on uniform? Why are you taking the argument the other way?

        I understand that you have no facts and you began to bustle ......
        Why didn’t the commanders in the German division or regiment on the Eastern border give orders to remove the insignia from the shoulder straps?
        Why they were not given the order to sew the couplings and close this absurdity ??

        You farted your version here and repeatedly insulted the author Eugene. Show the facts that you had the right to such behavior
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 18 October 2019 12: 10
          -7
          Quote: cavl
          why did soldiers with different signs on uniforms supposedly go to the German division or regiment? Why are you taking the argument the other way?

          This is a blatant lie, because I never said that in ONE regiment there were soldiers with different insignia on uniform. I only asserted that when forming tank divisions, their composition could include separate regiments and battalions from infantry divisions or from a reserve, which arrived at the place of new deployment in their uniform with their insignia. And only after some time, after they have taken on clothing allowance in the new unit, the rear officers will give them new insignia and epaulettes - this is done in any army. That is why there was some confusion in the insignia, and not because the author of the article was lying that this was a consequence of misinformation from the Germans. This ignoramus will never understand that no matter what form the regiment arrives in, test radio communications will still give out its belonging to one or another formation.
          Quote: cavl
          Why didn’t the commanders in the German division or regiment on the Eastern border give orders to remove the insignia from the shoulder straps?

          Because they have not yet made new ones for them or have not received them in the clothing service. I already pointed out to one amateur that the formation of new divisions in 1940 took almost four months from the date of publication of the directive - does this at least tell you something?
          Quote: cavl
          Why they were not given the order to sew the couplings and close this absurdity ??

          It is you who ask the author of the article, not me.
          Quote: cavl
          You farted your version here and repeatedly insulted the author Eugene.

          Actually, you’re spoiling the air here with him. By the way, why are you afraid to name your surnames, and at the same time carefully hide them?
          1. cavl
            cavl 25 October 2019 13: 20
            +3
            Why cheat again? Here is your quote: "I have said more than once that the author is brazenly lyingwhen he says that the German command carried out an operation to misinform Soviet intelligence by changing the numbers of units on the uniform and buttonholes of Wehrmacht soldiers.
            Firstly, the author never presented any evidence that such an event was not carried out on the basis of any plan. In the February Wehrmacht disinformation directive, this is not mentioned at all, i.e. the author’s fantasies are not supported by anything.
            Secondly confusion with signs occurred not because of special disinformation events, but as a result of organized events when others were deployed on the basis of some units, and the military simply did not have time to change the insigniathat is a common occurrence of routine events.
            "

            The main idea of ​​the author about disinformation with the help of insignia. You answer the question clearly. When I made fun of you that it is very simple to remove signs from shoulder straps and this does not contradict the rules of wearing uniforms, and it was also allowed to close these signs on shoulder straps with special couplings from uniform cloth - you began to dodge and for some reason brought your thoughts about the shape of sailors. You are a liar, Mr. Milchakov ...

            On the first point, you were again told that measures on shoulder straps already begin in May 1940, when the number of divisions in intelligence reports exceeded the actual number of divisions by three times !!! And provide a link to the directive of the German command in nine months! If events have already been held for 9 months, then why should they be discussed in the directive? And you do not understand basic things: the directive gives a strategic direction. And the details are introduced in the plans of much smaller staff structures or special services!
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 25 October 2019 17: 57
              -5
              Quote: cavl
              When I made fun of you that it is very simple to remove signs from shoulder straps and this does not contradict the rules of wearing uniforms, and it was also allowed to close these signs on shoulder straps with special couplings from uniform cloth - you began to dodge and for some reason brought your thoughts about the shape of sailors. You are a liar, Mr. Milchakov ...

              Yes, I’m not a liar, but you are just a miserable layman who believed the author that with the help of a change of buttonholes and shoulder straps one can deceive the radio intelligence. I have never believed in this whim, so try to fool your speculations to simpletons, maybe they will believe you and the author.
              Quote: cavl
              On the first point, you were again told that measures on shoulder straps already begin in May 1940,

              Enough blah blah blah - imagine at least some document to believe in your rubbish, especially considering that our radio intelligence revealed the location of the Wehrmacht’s compounds on the eve of the war with Poland. By the way, in May 1940 there was no Barbaross plan - why should the Germans deceive Soviet intelligence?
              Quote: cavl
              And the details are introduced in the plans of much smaller staff structures or special services!

              Well, where are they - at least show something for a start ....
              1. cavl
                cavl 28 October 2019 09: 45
                +2
                On the insignia on the shoulder straps there are words in the given intelligence data! No need to bustle, Milchakov. Why did you lick the author on signs on shoulder straps that the Germans could calmly carry on the uniform with the signs.

                When I made fun of you that it is very simple to remove signs from shoulder straps and this does not contradict the rules of wearing uniforms, and it was also allowed to close these signs on shoulder straps with special couplings from uniform cloth - you began to dodge and for some reason brought your thoughts about the shape of sailors. Here is a liar, Mr. Milchakov ...
                1. ccsr
                  ccsr 28 October 2019 13: 55
                  -2
                  Quote: cavl
                  On the insignia on the shoulder straps there are words in the given intelligence data!

                  These signs are not even interesting to the commander of the district, and even the General Staff is even more so - learn the materiel, a pensioner, once in the army, I have taken off from command training.
                  Quote: cavl
                  When I made fun of you, it’s very simple to remove signs from shoulder straps and this does not contradict the rules of wearing a uniform,

                  You didn’t even confirm your invention by one fact, and decided that you proved something to me - get comfortable, amateur, your masquerade is not interesting for radio reconnaissance, even if the whole division will change into a uniform for the tropics, because they work for other intelligence.
                  Quote: cavl
                  you began to dodge and for some reason brought your thoughts about the shape of the sailors.

                  Because of your primitive thinking, you didn’t even understand that uniforms in itself can be misleading only to those who see it in front of themselves, but not reconnaissance, which is conducted in a complex manner, and where data from different sources are used. That is why you will never understand why the author of the article lied about the German tank uniforms, which, for example, could not be found in those units that arrived from other infantry formations.
                  1. Ales
                    Ales 4 November 2019 13: 29
                    +1
                    By the signs on the shoulder straps one can judge the number and type of regiments, divisions, and their locations. This number is added to the number of divisions, which is interesting to the leadership of the district and the Red Army
  7. VS
    VS 16 October 2019 13: 29
    -7
    "" Based on the overestimated number of troops in the General Staff, they made an erroneous conclusion that Germany would allocate 173 divisions for an attack on the USSR. "

    - yeah - and since 21 of June did not see German divisions SO much, it means they didn’t wait for the attack)))

    Damn .. well, where do these anonymous ignoramuses climb from now on? (((
    1. cavl
      cavl 18 October 2019 05: 34
      +7
      I, too, marvel at the ignoramuses from the warehouse, who do not understand a damn thing in military affairs. You can screw a quote and this is the entire mental ceiling of such a figure from the warehouse.

      Where is written in the pre-war documents about the sufficiency of the attack on the USSR 120 German divisions! ??

      No words, let the facts writer Kozinkin
      1. cavl
        cavl 25 October 2019 13: 20
        +2
        No facts from Mr. Kozinkin.....
  8. VS
    VS 16 October 2019 13: 59
    -8
    "" Known is the Directive of the USSR People's Commissar for Defense and the Chief of the General Staff of the Spacecraft to the commander of the Western Military District, Colonel-General D.G. Pavlov. There is no exact date for this Directive, but the approximate time of its preparation is indicated - April 1941. April is later than March 11th ... What does the Directive say?

    I order you to start developing a plan for the operational deployment of the ZAPOVO armies, guided by the following guidelines ... In the event of a war with us, Germany, from its 225 infantry, 20 tank and 15 motorized divisions, will be able to send up to 200 divisions against our borders ...


    Even a month later, the material set forth in the General Staff Plan of 11.3.41 is quoted verbatim. When developing the Plans, one should be guided by the direction against the USSR up to 200 divisions! And why do the writers tell us that all our military know that 120 German divisions are enough ""

    - Yes, because THESE April directives for the new BCPs by the districts did not work out)))

    "" We are looking at the well-known document - the draft Note of the USSR People's Commissar of Defense and the Chief of the General Staff of the Spacecraft, which was drawn up after May 15.

    And after 65 days, when developing a new document on the deployment of troops in the General Staff, the number of German divisions allocated for the attack on the USSR is much more than 120! ""

    - and if you look at MAY’S KSHIs - from 15 to 20 on May they passed and then on 24 on May they summarized them by Stalin - then NOT 180-190 German divisions are participating in the attack on the USSR, but about 120 pieces in total)) )

    "" Most likely, both Directives left in the first decade of May. ""

    - in general, the EXACT dates of the GS directives for new software are well known and were shown by writers)))
    google to help)))


    "" On the entire Soviet-German border on 21.6.41 June 180, up to 31 German divisions, 22% of the formations were still missing. Therefore, the German generals should not have started the war on June XNUMX. And the Soviet command did not assume that the German command needed a significantly smaller number of troops to defeat the border grouping of the spacecraft ...
    ""

    - a spiritualist damn)) ANONYM network always knows exactly who there thought))) how to live .... ((

    And yet - the attack before the 1 of July was not expected in the General Staff because in the General Directives of the 11-12 of June the dates are - about the withdrawal of troops - on the 1 of July !!)))

    "" The mistake in overestimating the capabilities of the spacecraft and the required number of German divisions for an attack on the USSR was one of the two biggest mistakes that led to a surprise attack for the leadership of the Soviet Union and the spacecraft. "

    - Well, thank God - the conclusions still flooded at last)) gygygy))) well, just the charm of what conclusions)))

    And STALIN LATER PRESSED the RED button because he believed Hitler but did not believe his military and intelligence))

    "" The second mistake, which led to the same consequences, was incorrect RM, which came from our intelligence services. ""

    - Definitely - Intelligence is to blame for the anonymous network)))

    "" For many advanced members of the forum, "VO" could be puzzled by the pushing of Directive No. 22 from Stalin by the People's Commissar of Defense and the Chief of the General Staff on June 3, and the urgent departure of GK Zhukov to KOVO to organize an attack on Lublin. During this period, the Chief of the General Staff is fully confident in the Republic of Moldova, which was represented by the RC of the SC General Staff until June 22 ""

    -)))) the ignoramus may be perplexed)) And for those who are simple in the subject - Zhukov rushed off to implement his plan - retaliating from KOVO against the NON-BASIC forces of the Germans)))

    "GK Zhukov did not know at that time that the German army had already concentrated completely on the border." "

    - our network anonym reads the current intelligence reports that he likes ??)) Oops (((A RU GSH to Stalin and - ZhUKOV - 19, 20 and 21 of June filed the Reports that the CONDITION is over and the attack will be from day to day ((((
    on the evening of June 21, the General Staff of the General Staff presented to Stalin, both naturally and militarily, a Report - “On the Signs of a German Attack on the USSR on the Night of 21.06 on 22.06”. At the direction of Lieutenant General F.I. Golikova, special communications officer in 20: 00 21 On June 1941, an urgent delivery envelope with the inscription “Only to the addressee. Do not open the staff of the apparatus ”I.V. Stalin, V.M. Molotov and S.K. Timoshenko (F.I. Golikova “Philip Golikov. Notes of the head of the Intelligence Agency.” (M. 2018, p. 58. World War II 1941 – 1945 years: In 12 vol. M., 2013. T. 6. S. 108.)
    Our anonymous ignoramus did not read the new 12 titanic about WWII? His problems ...


    "" The Chief of the General Staff did not know that the German generals were going to beat the spacecraft units with smaller forces than the General Staff thought about it ...
    "

    gygygy - a spiritualist damn))) a spiritualist always knows what Zhukov thought there)))
    1. cavl
      cavl 17 October 2019 19: 57
      +9
      But you're lying worse.
      Even to the Spirista are not mature enough.
      Zhukov from the Kremlin called the operative in the General Staff; let's cook people at the district headquarters faster ...
      Only Zhukov does not write this in his memoirs ...
      How did you know that? What about a crystal ball?
      We know from where - from an error in the memoirs of General Zakharov.
      I remember you wrote: try to refute the words of the honored general ....
      Only I replied that the commander denied the words of Zakharov and accompanied his words with many details that unexpectedly coincided with the recollections of other veterans.
      So where does the information about Zhukov’s call from the Kremlin come from? Are you our Kozinkin a liar? Facts we learn or not?
      1. cavl
        cavl 18 October 2019 05: 41
        +7
        Where did you get the writer Kozinkin data that PP did not work out on 180 divisions? Let's get the facts.
        Where did the April Pavlov directive from the General Staff say about the 200 German divisions?

        Only an amateur from a warehouse can write the above mentioned nonsense. If the explanation of the 200 German divisions was in the ZAPOVO directive in April, then this amount was also used in May, when directives were sent to the districts. This, as Eugene noted, and no one had previously paid attention to a bunch of these documents, is also confirmed by the May document of the General Staff, laid out in free access on the official website of the Ministry of Defense.

        And your unproven chatter is visible right away
  9. VS
    VS 16 October 2019 14: 05
    -8
    "" The author will try to fantasize further, and fantasies do not require proof. How were 180 German divisions supposed to be distributed along our border?

    Against the troops of the PribOVO and ZAPOVO, the enemy could concentrate up to 80 divisions (48-49 of them against the PribOVO).

    yes DO NOT GUESS a miracle, you are our anonymous))) Who was there with Cho waiting in the General Staff from the Germans - see the miracle of Appendices 15 and 16 in the work of OFFICERS IN the General Staff from 1992)) Especially for batans - both razunov and other ignoramuses, his officers VNU The General Staff wrote on the basis of WORKERS and full materials of the General Staff - "1941 - lessons and conclusions"))
    The MAJOR strike from the Germans in the General Staff was ALWAYS waited ALWAYS AND ONLY north of POLESYA))) And THIS is reflected in the Plans of the General Staff)))
    1. cavl
      cavl 17 October 2019 19: 51
      +9
      Our miracle is rotated without an anonym.
      Try to refute the published PribOVO cover plans where this number is obtained.
      It’s not to lie impudently in books about Zhukov’s call from the Kremlin.
      Let's get the facts
    2. cavl
      cavl 17 October 2019 20: 06
      +5
      Is it also how Ivashutin wrote that intelligence has given everything?
      Yes, we read what intelligence has yielded and how distorted the events at the General Staff ... Therefore, most of the reports are not there to cover up the dope.
      Miraculously liar, prove that all documents of the General Staff with the number of divisions are more than 120 enemies. Try misinterpreting something.
      Try to refute that the April directive does not exist in the stockpile, where it says 200 divisions. Let's lie
  10. VS
    VS 16 October 2019 14: 15
    -9
    Quote: Siberia
    The directions of the main blows were not known.

    do not repeat nonsense from local anonymous)))
    1. cavl
      cavl 18 October 2019 05: 45
      +8
      Show the facts that these strikes were expected.

      Try to refute the facts of Baghramyan’s recollection that the mechanized corps wasn’t hit unexpectedly for KOVO.

      Try to explain clearly: why the whole day of June 22 they did not know about the important direction of one of the main attacks near Brest.

      Let's talk on the facts liar kozinkin
    2. cavl
      cavl 25 October 2019 13: 24
      +2
      Provide data on the concentration of German shock groups in the directions of the main strikes!
      You see, Mr. Warehouse Worker, that indicating the possible direction of the main blow in the Baltic States or against the KOVO is utter nonsense! The border runs hundreds of kilometers, and the direction is only one in two three dozen kilometers. This is precisely what the intelligence task consists of: finding out exactly where in the Baltic countries the Germans will strike. and hit where there are tank associations! This is an elementary military knowledge ... Lord, well, who reads your nonsense? !!!
  11. VS
    VS 16 October 2019 14: 17
    -7
    Quote: Siberia
    Contrary to allegations, intelligence reports on the Barbarossa plan, the Germans' plans in general, and the movements of German troops did not carry the character of unambiguously interpreted information about the attack on the USSR. Against the background of complete silence on the diplomatic front (the absence of any intelligible claims against the USSR), there was no reason to believe that the data on Hitler's plans to attack the USSR were reliable enough to make irreversible decisions. Therefore, the necessary but irreversible moves in those conditions by the Soviet leadership were not made. Stalin simply did not have any information that could be trusted on 100%.
    The situation was aggravated by the reassessment of the group of German troops in the east in the fall of 1940. An overestimation of the number of troops led to the fact that the accumulation of the first echelons of troops assigned to conduct the Barbarossa went almost unnoticed. More precisely, the pace of accumulation of troops against the USSR was not correctly estimated. When the situation really became threatening, there was no longer enough time for an adequate reaction.

    you forgot to say nonsense from Isaev to the heap - so STALIN LATER PRESSED the red button)))
  12. VS
    VS 16 October 2019 14: 19
    -8
    Quote: ccsr
    The intelligence agency in this case assesses the potential of Germany, and not how many divisions will actually be used to attack the USSR.

    Well, nevermind the anonymous))
    1. cavl
      cavl 18 October 2019 05: 47
      +7
      Hk, yes, an expert from a warehouse.
      Support the opinion of the liar milchakova.
      only why, in numerous intelligence documents, speaks of German divisions concentrated against our borders?

      Let's lie something and insult a man
  13. VS
    VS 16 October 2019 14: 23
    -9
    Quote: ccsr
    If you summarize with German armored vehicles on 22 in June, then it just turns out that the total number was within 9,5-10 thousand units of armored vehicles, i.e. Our intelligence provided absolutely accurate data.

    the joke is that the Germans could also lay down the trophies in our Moscow State School of Fine Arts, too - with what the Germans have from their tanks)))
    1. cavl
      cavl 25 October 2019 13: 25
      +1
      Create a new version for Kozinkin, how to fart in a puddle ...
  14. Operator
    Operator 16 October 2019 14: 41
    -2
    Quote: V.S.
    saw

    "Saw" is the key word: according to the author of the article, until June 22, 1941, the General Staff of the General Staff of the Red Army was blindly like a mole, and 22 at once saw the light already with X-ray vision (the satellite constellation was lifted into near-earth orbit, +100500 transcordon and pre-Cordon agents were activated, at each verst a pillar of a partisan with a radio set) laughing
  15. icant007
    icant007 17 October 2019 18: 14
    0
    I respect the author immensely for such a work that claims to be academic. Lots of numbers, tables, maps. But what is this entire series of articles for? To show that the military intelligence is fucked up? So we all got fucked up in 41. Someone more, some less. Except for those who heroically fought to the last "growing into the ground here" ..
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 17 October 2019 19: 51
      -7
      Quote: icant007
      I respect the author immensely for such work, which claims to be academic. A lot of numbers, tables, maps.

      Ask the author to give a link from where his data was taken, in order to understand how his figures are "academic", especially if he claims that in Germany on the eve of June 22 there were a little more than 3 thousand armored vehicles. Rezun also considers himself to be a great researcher of our history, although any literate person understands that in his works there are sheer lies and manipulations, and how many numbers he uses, the local "researcher" AsmyppoL never dreamed of. Rezun also need to say thanks?
      1. icant007
        icant007 17 October 2019 21: 37
        -2
        In my words, irony or sarcasm is more likely than recognition of the author’s real merits. It seems to me beyond its numbers, as beyond the trees of the forest is not visible. And the figure 3 thousand units of German armored vehicles now appears in many articles about the beginning of the war. I honestly don’t know how much she can be trusted. As for intelligence, I have an intuitive opinion that it just worked better than all other services, as always.
        1. cavl
          cavl 18 October 2019 03: 17
          +3
          If it worked well, then answer only one question: where are the German headquarters of motorized corps, tank groups and army groups?
          And the answer to a single question can provide an answer to the actions of Stalin, Zhukov and Tymoshenko. But the question is: how many field army headquarters were found against the forces of PribOVO, ZAPOVO and against KOVO? The discovery of this had a stunning effect for me. And I learned a lot of my 70-year life and read military literature even more .......
          1. icant007
            icant007 18 October 2019 09: 49
            0
            And what is the stunning effect?
        2. ccsr
          ccsr 18 October 2019 11: 57
          -6
          Quote: icant007
          In my words, irony or sarcasm is more likely than recognition of the author’s real merits. It seems to me beyond its numbers, as beyond the trees of the forest is not visible.

          I apologize if I misinterpreted your text.
          Quote: icant007
          As for intelligence, I have an intuitive opinion that it just worked better than all other services, as always.

          If you ever begin to study in detail the questions of intelligence activity in the pre-war period, then believe me, you will immediately understand what impudent lies the author of this article spreads in the hope of ignorant people.
          Quote: icant007
          And the figure 3 thousand units of German armored vehicles now appears in many articles on the outbreak of war

          Halder in his diary indicated that they had only TROPHY armored vehicles in the 1940 year had more than 4900 units - I quoted the text from his diary here. Now think about whether you can trust the local liar if he claims that the Germans had a little more than 3 thousand units of armored vehicles on 22 on June 1941.
  16. cavl
    cavl 17 October 2019 20: 02
    +9
    Quote: V.S.
    "" Known is the Directive of the USSR People's Commissar for Defense and the Chief of the General Staff of the Spacecraft to the commander of the Western Military District, Colonel-General D.G. Pavlov. There is no exact date for this Directive, but the approximate time of its preparation is indicated - April 1941. April is later than March 11th ... What does the Directive say?

    I order you to start developing a plan for the operational deployment of the ZAPOVO armies, guided by the following guidelines ... In the event of a war with us, Germany, from its 225 infantry, 20 tank and 15 motorized divisions, will be able to send up to 200 divisions against our borders ...


    Even a month later, the material set forth in the General Staff Plan of 11.3.41 is quoted verbatim. When developing the Plans, one should be guided by the direction against the USSR up to 200 divisions! And why do the writers tell us that all our military know that 120 German divisions are enough ""

    - Yes, because THESE April directives for the new BCPs by the districts did not work out)))

    "" We are looking at the well-known document - the draft Note of the USSR People's Commissar of Defense and the Chief of the General Staff of the Spacecraft, which was drawn up after May 15.

    And after 65 days, when developing a new document on the deployment of troops in the General Staff, the number of German divisions allocated for the attack on the USSR is much more than 120! ""

    - and if you look at MAY’S KSHIs - from 15 to 20 on May they passed and then on 24 on May they summarized them by Stalin - then NOT 180-190 German divisions are participating in the attack on the USSR, but about 120 pieces in total)) )

    "" Most likely, both Directives left in the first decade of May. ""

    - in general, the EXACT dates of the GS directives for new software are well known and were shown by writers)))
    google to help)))


    "" On the entire Soviet-German border on 21.6.41 June 180, up to 31 German divisions, 22% of the formations were still missing. Therefore, the German generals should not have started the war on June XNUMX. And the Soviet command did not assume that the German command needed a significantly smaller number of troops to defeat the border grouping of the spacecraft ...
    ""

    - a spiritualist damn)) ANONYM network always knows exactly who there thought))) how to live .... ((

    And yet - the attack before the 1 of July was not expected in the General Staff because in the General Directives of the 11-12 of June the dates are - about the withdrawal of troops - on the 1 of July !!)))

    "" The mistake in overestimating the capabilities of the spacecraft and the required number of German divisions for an attack on the USSR was one of the two biggest mistakes that led to a surprise attack for the leadership of the Soviet Union and the spacecraft. "

    - Well, thank God - the conclusions still flooded at last)) gygygy))) well, just the charm of what conclusions)))

    And STALIN LATER PRESSED the RED button because he believed Hitler but did not believe his military and intelligence))

    "" The second mistake, which led to the same consequences, was incorrect RM, which came from our intelligence services. ""

    - Definitely - Intelligence is to blame for the anonymous network)))

    "" For many advanced members of the forum, "VO" could be puzzled by the pushing of Directive No. 22 from Stalin by the People's Commissar of Defense and the Chief of the General Staff on June 3, and the urgent departure of GK Zhukov to KOVO to organize an attack on Lublin. During this period, the Chief of the General Staff is fully confident in the Republic of Moldova, which was represented by the RC of the SC General Staff until June 22 ""

    -)))) the ignoramus may be perplexed)) And for those who are simple in the subject - Zhukov rushed off to implement his plan - retaliating from KOVO against the NON-BASIC forces of the Germans)))

    "GK Zhukov did not know at that time that the German army had already concentrated completely on the border." "

    - our network anonym reads the current intelligence reports that he likes ??)) Oops (((A RU GSH to Stalin and - ZhUKOV - 19, 20 and 21 of June filed the Reports that the CONDITION is over and the attack will be from day to day ((((
    on the evening of June 21, the General Staff of the General Staff presented to Stalin, both naturally and militarily, a Report - “On the Signs of a German Attack on the USSR on the Night of 21.06 on 22.06”. At the direction of Lieutenant General F.I. Golikova, special communications officer in 20: 00 21 On June 1941, an urgent delivery envelope with the inscription “Only to the addressee. Do not open the staff of the apparatus ”I.V. Stalin, V.M. Molotov and S.K. Timoshenko (F.I. Golikova “Philip Golikov. Notes of the head of the Intelligence Agency.” (M. 2018, p. 58. World War II 1941 – 1945 years: In 12 vol. M., 2013. T. 6. S. 108.)
    Our anonymous ignoramus did not read the new 12 titanic about WWII? His problems ...


    "" The Chief of the General Staff did not know that the German generals were going to beat the spacecraft units with smaller forces than the General Staff thought about it ...
    "

    gygygy - a spiritualist damn))) a spiritualist always knows what Zhukov thought there)))


    And you lie to Kozinkin again. A-yayay. So substitute .... Not a spiritualist, but just a liar! Even in an article on the organization of the southern frontp, Eugene cited a fragment of the text about Golikov's distribution of the last peace message, and you only found it ...
    But God awarded the audacity to lie and distort all Mr. Kozinkin.
    As far as it reaches, it will lodge and pervert as usual without a single fact, but with one quote.
    Ai scammer
  17. cavl
    cavl 17 October 2019 20: 26
    +9
    Quote: V.S.
    if you look at MAISH KSHIs - from 15 to 20 on May they took place and then on Stalin's 24 on May they summed up them - then NOT 180-190 German divisions are participating in the attack on the USSR, but just about 120 pieces in total)))


    Show the facts that it is.
    I took a piece of paper and counted.
    There were no May games in PriOVO - no need to lie. There, the last spring games were 15-21 April. For these games against the Pribovo troops there were 30 pd, 6 pd and 3 pd. Total 38 divisions.

    In May, games were held in ZAPOVO and according to one option, from 5 SK 10 Army to 6 SK 26 Army there were up to 96 operations (up to 80 SD, up to 10 etc. and 6 MD).

    Total left 134 divisions.

    Move on. German divisions north of 5 sk and south of 6 sk are not reflected. And there 22 June was before 12 divisions.

    Consequently, at different games before Slovakia there could be 146 German divisions.

    Move on. Kozinkin himself voiced kshi in the month of May. Eugene twice showed that the documents of the General Staff track intelligence. And what was in the intelligence report for May 15? By the time after which the number 180 was written in the draft document document with reference to intelligence data?

    And there were 9 divisions in Slovakia and Hungary. In total, we reached the 153 German divisions.

    Move on. After all, the border with Romania remained, on which intelligence and general staff are tracking the mass of German divisions. And how many Germans are there? This is already told about in the plans for covering the OdVO, which they began to prepare in early May. And the divisions there according to the document were 19.
    Total along our border 172 division. This is not 120.
    Time again, Mr. Kozinkin. Have you ever tried to tell the truth? Or are gullible readers paying more for lies?
    Let's provide data that along our entire border only 120 divisions watched the May kshu. Just do not send me to your paper lies. Give the facts here.
    You have more than once lied that the answers of the divisors have everything that you write.
    Victoria brought ALL excerpts from the divisional commander and there is not what you unfoundedly refer to. And I personally do not believe a word
    1. cavl
      cavl 25 October 2019 13: 27
      +3
      Kozinkin, where are the facts that the top leadership of the Red Army believed that 120 German divisions were enough for a war with the USSR? The latest materials of the General Staff, as Eugene linked them together, show that 180 divisions were considered there. Where is the data that in May, the presence of only 120 German divisions was considered at exercises or games along the entire border of the USSR? !!!
  18. VS
    VS 17 October 2019 20: 27
    -8
    Quote: cavl
    Only Zhukov does not write this in his memoirs ...
    How did you know that? What about a crystal ball?
    We know from where - from an error in the memoirs of General Zakharov.

    Zhukov doesn’t write a lot of things and says a lot of lies)) For example, he doesn’t write that he even called the okrug in the evenings and warned them that there would be an attack))) And he didn’t write that 19, 20 and 21 read Golikov’s reports about the attack)))

    On June 19, on June 1941, the General Staff prepared a special report “On Signs of a Probable German Attack on the USSR in the near future,”
    On June 20, on June 1941, the Republic of Uzbekistan sent a report to the USSR leadership "On signs of the inevitability of a German attack on the USSR in the coming days."
    On June 21, the General Staff of the General Staff submitted to Stalin, both naturally and militarily, a Report - “On the Signs of a German Attack on the USSR on the Night of 21.06 on 22.06”.
    At the direction of Lieutenant General F.I. Golikova, Special Communications Officer at 20: 00 21 On June 1941, he urgently delivered an envelope with the inscription “Only to the addressee. Do not open the staff of the apparatus ”I.V. Stalin, V.M. Molotov and S.K. Timoshenko (F.I. Golikov. "Philip Golikov. Notes of the head of the Intelligence Agency." (M. 2018, p. 58. World War II 1941 – 1945 years: In 12 vol. M., 2013. T. 6. S . 108.)
    )) Refute the clowns)))
    1. cavl
      cavl 18 October 2019 05: 50
      +8
      So the facts about Zhukov’s call from the Kremlin where?
      No need to bustle: either show the facts or say that this is your personal version.

      Unverified versions included in your books are a sign of amateurism with a seal of genius!
    2. ccsr
      ccsr 18 October 2019 13: 33
      -5
      Quote: V.S.
      And he does not write that 19, 20 and 21 read Golikov's reports about the attack)))
      On June 19, on June 1941, the General Staff of the General Staff prepared a special report “On Signs of a Probable German Attack on the USSR in the near Future,”
      On June 20, on June 1941, the Republic of Uzbekistan sent a report to the USSR leadership "On signs of the inevitability of a German attack on the USSR in the coming days."
      On June 21, the General Staff of the General Staff submitted to Stalin, both naturally and militarily, a Report - “On the Signs of a German Attack on the USSR on the Night of 21.06 on 22.06”.

      Not swords with beads, Oleg - these amateurs have not even seen the entire text of Yakovlev's "Summary" in their eyes, but only refer to its castrated copy, and you offer them a list of Golikov's OPERATIONAL daily reports, the existence of which they do not even suspect. I have already tried to explain to these amateurs what a daily intelligence report is, but they are so illiterate that they do not even understand the different level of these documents, so you are unlikely to convince them of anything.
    3. cavl
      cavl 25 October 2019 13: 30
      +3
      On June 19, on June 1941, the General Staff prepared a special report “On Signs of a Probable German Attack on the USSR in the near future,”
      On June 20, on June 1941, the Republic of Uzbekistan sent a report to the USSR leadership "On signs of the inevitability of a German attack on the USSR in the coming days."
      On June 21, the General Staff of the General Staff submitted to Stalin, both naturally and militarily, a Report - “On the Signs of a German Attack on the USSR on the Night of 21.06 on 22.06”.


      Let's show these documents to us faster and see which of us is right !!!! Just don’t tell the liar that they are in the secret archive! Because on your same site cited Golikov’s words, where he says that Germany has 285-295 divisions! Therefore, in the links provided there can be any heresy that does not correspond to reality
      1. cavl
        cavl 25 October 2019 13: 31
        +3
        Kozinkin, where are the facts about Zhukov’s call from the Kremlin ???
  19. VS
    VS 17 October 2019 20: 30
    -5
    Quote: cavl
    Try to refute the published PribOVO cover plans where this number is obtained.

    ?? WHAT is the other number - what are you talking about, anonymous, are you our next ??)

    And - WHY should I refute something if there is decent work of officers of the General Staff of the General Staff?))
    1. cavl
      cavl 18 October 2019 06: 10
      +8
      Yes, then, our dilettante, that apart from "survival" you are not capable of anything ...
      The term "survival" is a new pearl of Kozinkin introduced into circulation. All he could do was to survive text in applications ..
      And where is the analysis that your link is not a lie? Are you trying to hide from the argument again with quotes from other people's uncles? You have already written more than once that when you caught on inconsistencies, you were sent to the person who wrote the memoirs.
      Now again referring to unverified material. And you insult people from time to time.

      After Martirosian’s fictitious material about flying along the border as directed by Stalin himself appeared in the 12 volume about the war, one cannot believe in allegedly authoritative works. And referring to them is the height of amateurism or fraud to advance the books in the book field. Business Above All ....

      How do your general staffs explain the fact of not increasing the number of German troops according to intelligence? But no way - you can’t tell them about it. And if they are silent, then they lie ...

      And how did Kozinkin himself explain this fact? I just took and came up with the version that they simply moved to the border from the depths and again not a single fact. Kozinkin’s versions are born in the head of a business executive who is used to juggling documents in his field!

      And what did Eugene do? He checked the data on 31 on May 1941 of the year with the situation on the map on 21 on June. The map is available on the official website of the Ministry of Defense and is an official document. The same as the words of the General Staff.
      And the official intelligence reports of ZAPOVO and PribOVO.
      Oh, a miracle, but the troops didn’t go to the border until 21, and the new version of the writer Kozinkin was not constructive. Or crazy. And nonsense can not be confirmed by facts. Just one fact, bring me a kozinkin. Ready to argue with you here!

      I do not know the site on which Eugene took information on German troops. But I myself took a tablet not too lazy and found a Russian site. On it there is still a sign of the Order of the Patriotic War. He recorded all the divisions that were on our border by June 22. On the indicated site with a note I wrote out all the infantry and artillery regiments of these divisions. Compared with intelligence data. They are quoted by Eugene. And entering them into the search bar is easy to find. And what I didn’t find, I found in electronic books on military intelligence and on border troops during the war.

      And it was strange, but as expected, that many regiments that were written about in intelligence reports could not be at the border. And it turns out that the General Staffists are lying ... You as usual will slip away by sending the authors of the book for confirmation ...
      And how to believe a writer who supposedly gives the truth, and she turns out to be a lie

      It is a fact. What are your facts, Mr. Kozinkin?
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 18 October 2019 18: 47
        -7
        Quote: cavl
        They are quoted by Eugene. And entering them into the search bar is easy to find. And what I didn’t find, I found in electronic books on military intelligence and on border troops during the war.

        And it was strange, but as expected, that many regiments that were written about in intelligence reports could not be at the border. And it turns out that the General Staffists are ....

        You’re definitely a clown — general staffists are not interested in regiments from the word at all, because they don’t need it because they deal with strategic issues, and they are not interested in anything less than the division. At least you wouldn’t be so stubbornly demonstrating your ignorance, and you would make yourself a laughing stock.
      2. AsmyppoL
        19 October 2019 06: 02
        +3
        Thank you, Vladimir, for having independently traveled this way.
        Vladimir, you also wrote about the headquarters (commands) of army groups and field armies.
        In one part, material on the headquarters of large associations will be presented.
        We can say that you correctly understood the situation and even ahead
        the order of my presentation of the material)))
  20. VS
    VS 17 October 2019 20: 33
    -7
    Quote: cavl
    Eugene quoted a fragment of the text about Golikov’s last peaceful message, and you just found it ...

    you and this spiritualist ask - WHERE HERE took this info?)))
    1. cavl
      cavl 18 October 2019 06: 12
      +8
      So I asked you? How did you, our spiritualist, learn about Zhukov’s call from the Kremlin?
      How did you find out and include in your books?
  21. VS
    VS 17 October 2019 20: 33
    -8
    Quote: icant007
    But why the whole series of articles? To show that military intelligence has been predicted?

    Onet anonymous such - crap to foul (((
    1. cavl
      cavl 18 October 2019 06: 13
      +5
      I see that the lord Kozinkin craps and lies without revealing the facts. Not a single question has a single supporting fact
      1. RuSFr
        RuSFr 18 October 2019 07: 10
        +1
        Well said
        Shitting and lying, shitting again and lying again lol
  22. cavl
    cavl 17 October 2019 20: 36
    +8
    Quote: ccsr
    Я

    As usual, Milchakov lied. A man like that. He is lying the usual thing.

    My words concern army groups, not armies. Read should be in syllables, it’s better. This is still a German I wrote to you. If people do not understand Russian well, then they read in syllables.
    An army group is not one army.

    And bring us a pigeon-liar, a link to any reconnaissance document where our reconnaissance has discovered Army Group B, A or C.

    And you bring a document on the discovery of two armies. And this is not the case with those armies that have 3 and 8 numbers? They are also mentioned in the 1940 summer documents in an article by Eugene. I double-checked the reports. Checked by Wiki - yes, both disbanded.

    So which armies do you bring in the bulletins? Army ghosts or what? If not, give their numbers.

    Or is lying easier than explaining something ??
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 18 October 2019 12: 33
      -6
      Quote: cavl
      My words concern army groups, not armies. Read should be in syllables, it’s better. This is still a German I wrote to you. If people do not understand Russian well, then they read in syllables.
      An army group is not one army.

      Especially for the illiterate, I inform you that there was no concept of "front" in German terminology, and therefore the phrase "army group" was not translated here as the word "front" in intelligence reports, because the Germans used the word "Eastern Front" as a designation for the entire theater of action. But we had the Western Front, and other fronts, using the words West, South, North. That is why, not finding an analogue to our "front" in intelligence reports, and did not single out "army groups", especially since they did not have a permanent structure.
      So you don’t understand very well that German military terminology does not coincide with ours, that’s why you’re lying all the time that they didn’t report something to you.
      Quote: cavl
      where our intelligence discovered Army Group B, A or C.

      And intelligence does not calculate the number of formations, but the number of formations, because the division is the BASIC structure by which the enemy’s combat power is estimated. That is why senior commanders setting tasks for intelligence first of all demanded the exact number of divisions, and not to whom they would be subordinated to the organization. By the way, in our districts (fronts) there were a large number of different divisions, which were directly subordinate to the headquarters of the district (front). Now turn on your brains and think about what the enemy should take into account in such a situation when conducting reconnaissance - the number of divisions in the front, or the number of headquarters of corps and armies? Look do not overheat, from the strain ...
      Quote: cavl
      Or is lying easier than explaining something ??

      And it’s useless for amateurs to explain military science - you are simply insane in your ignorance, and the arguments do not affect you. That's why everything in your brain does not fit. automatically goes into the category of lies. So why throw beads in front of you?
    2. ccsr
      ccsr 20 October 2019 14: 18
      -5
      Quote: cavl
      My words concern army groups, not armies.

      Get down the amateur - there wasn’t in the territory of the governor general of the German military districts like the Soviet military districts, and therefore there were no stationary headquarters of the district, as it was in the Red Army. That is why in peacetime it is almost impossible to tie the headquarters of a group of German troops to a certain territory, and even more so to determine its structure, given the different number of troops that arrived in the spring as part of a particular army group.
      So all your dances around the army group most of all prove that you are a complete ignoramus in military affairs, although you are a military pensioner. I remind you for the illiterate that the commanders operate with the number of enemy divisions, and not with staff structures, which you consider to be combat units in their illiteracy, but they are only the governing bodies. What difference does it make to our command how many staffs will manage the 120-122 divisions, which, as our intelligence reported in June 5 report, were focused on the June 15 of the 1 of the year?
      Quote: cavl
      And this is not the case with those armies that have 3 and 8 numbers?

      Open your eyes - there is one army headquarters number not installed, and the second goes under the number 12. The numbers of other armies are indicated in reconnaissance report No. 5.
      Quote: cavl
      So which armies do you bring in the bulletins? Army ghosts or what? If not, give their numbers.

      Those reported by Golikov. As for the army headquarters, they are indicated in the report No.5 of June 15 — did you even see it in person? The headquarters of the eastern group is also indicated there, so you are brazenly lying that the intelligence did not open the headquarters of the groups on the eve of the war.
      Quote: cavl
      Or is lying easier than explaining something ??

      You’re lying here both with the author of the article, and as I understand it from blatant illiteracy in military matters. And it’s useless to explain to you - you, as a well-known character, are looking at new gates, and you don’t understand what is hidden behind them.
  23. cavl
    cavl 18 October 2019 03: 12
    +8
    Having given the next scan, the sick Mr. Milchakov makes the conclusion that he alone knows about the report in April, the author Eugene allegedly does not suspect .......
    This suggests an obvious megalomania ....

    Where did you get that Eugene does not know this, if the article is finished in the month of March? Revelation from Above? They say about such people that they will not lie dearly ....
    And he lies and does not blush ...

    Eugene is looking forward to continuing! A loyal reader is a military pensioner from the group: those who are far beyond 70
    Quote: ccsr
    Quote: cavl
    How did radio intelligence recognize headquarters designations after the benefits of war? You need to read by syllables, then it gets better.

    Silently - by the callsign and the characteristic handwriting of the radio operators. However, if you write down the syllables, you still do not understand the work of radio intelligence.
    Quote: cavl
    The agents indicated in which town which headquarters, and the radio intelligence tracked only subscribers!

    Yeah, we dispersed - right in every settlement in Germany and the occupied city of Poland, we had a radiofeed agent group, and they only transmitted information to the intelligence departments of the districts. Wake up, dreamer - in our country, intelligence agents at the district level often didn’t have agents at all in those places where large headquarters were deployed, and therefore all hope was for radio intelligence and for agents of a strategic link who could receive information from their agents in Berlin, who had what access to documents of the highest headquarters or received oral information.
    Quote: cavl
    But intelligence did not recognize that the headquarters of the construction sites were the headquarters of the shock groups.

    And where is the evidence of these fantasies? Well, at least I brought a link to the documents so that you can understand where your lie was born.
    Quote: cavl
    I rummaged through the materials and found that the headquarters of army group intelligence had not found.

    Lies. First, you did not show a single fact that they were not discovered. Otherwise, you would give a link to the documents.
    Secondly, the army group was not a regular Wehrmacht structure, which is why the main efforts were focused on determining the total number of divisions in the theater of operations, which was reflected in intelligence reports. By the way, both Shaposhnikov in their report and Halder in their diaries operate on the number of enemy divisions, but not armies and not army groups, because they are professionals, not amateurs like you. And they are well aware that the power of the army is determined by the number of combat formations, and not by the number of army headquarters that control them. However, for you this is still a Chinese letter.
    Quote: cavl
    Read more and fewer notions to post here

    It’s you who will make such statements to amateurs, but I immediately realized that you are just a layman in military intelligence, which is why you put forward absurd requirements for its materials.


    You will not hear more lies from a military signalman ...
    Silently in handwriting and place of contact .... And according to these data, radio scouts will find out the name of the German headquarters ....

    Moreover, in the previous part, Milchakov cites a huge article on the DIRECTIONS OF GERMAN SHIPS ON THE FIRST DAYS of the war by the naval intelligence post.
    But direction finding is not recognition of the name ... I distorted concepts and deliberate lies to deceive readers.
    Twice is not a mistake and a lie. Twice to the question: why didn’t the boules be opened and the headquarters of the motorized corps, the headquarters of the tank groups, the headquarters of the army groups should be found verbal garbage, but no facts are provided.
    For example, the location of the ships was found, then the headquarters were to be found ....
    Must - this is not detected, but about the facts is silent, like a liar pegged into a corner ....
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 18 October 2019 12: 43
      -7
      Quote: cavl
      Where did you get that Eugene does not know this, if the article is finished in the month of March? Revelation from Above? They say about such people that they will not lie dearly ....
      And he lies and does not blush ...

      Your illiteracy does not surprise me for a long time, that is why you did not enter here either, that the deceitful Eugene uses the REFERENCE material from the printed edition (!) To substantiate the claims to intelligence, and I brought the OPERATIVE summary of the RU GSh which is intended only for a few top leaders of the state and the People's Commissariat defense. And it reflects reliable information at the time of its compilation. Now think, dilettante, what OPERATIONAL value can the informational "Summary" of the RU GSh, if it reflects material for several months? Are you really a layman in these matters or are you pretending?
      Quote: cavl
      But direction finding is not recognition of the name ... I distorted concepts and deliberate lies to deceive readers.

      You’re lying about verbiage, because each ship has its own call sign, and it is easy to determine with whom it is conducting a communication session.
      Quote: cavl
      why then the boulevards were not opened and the headquarters of the motorized corps, the headquarters of the tank groups, the headquarters of the army groups were discovered verbal garbage, but no facts were provided.

      You're lying, verbiage - in the April intelligence report of Golikov the appearance of two headquarters of the German army is indicated, I cited the scan.
  24. VS
    VS 18 October 2019 08: 07
    -6
    Quote: cavl
    Where is written in the pre-war documents about the sufficiency of the attack on the USSR 120 German divisions! ??

    and WHERE IS WRITTEN what - IF THERE WILL NOT BE 180 divisions then there will be no attack?)))
    Quote: cavl
    Where is written in the pre-war documents about the sufficiency of the attack on the USSR 120 German divisions! ??

    and WHERE IS WRITTEN that IF there are no 180 divisions detected, then there will be attacks?))
  25. VS
    VS 18 October 2019 08: 09
    -6
    Quote: cavl
    Where did you get the writer Kozinkin data that PP did not work out on 180 divisions? Let's get the facts.

    but why should I give something ridiculous on NONSENSE?)) The prewar PPs are NOT connected with the lope there will be from the Germans or there will not be divisions in pieces)))
  26. VS
    VS 18 October 2019 08: 10
    -6
    Quote: cavl
    Why are numerous intelligence documents talking about German divisions concentrated against our borders?

    and cho - THERE ARE NOT TRUE numbers given unless?)))
  27. VS
    VS 18 October 2019 08: 13
    -6
    Quote: cavl
    If it worked well, then answer only one question: where are the German headquarters of motorized corps, tank groups and army groups?

    but WHY DOES anyone need to know this if you know the lope of TOTAL and WHAT divisions we see?))
    all these TGs and GAs are temporary structures and not the regular units of the German army - they may or may not be) The fact that they MAY be quite allowed - well, a vegetable with them)))
  28. VS
    VS 18 October 2019 08: 17
    -5
    Quote: icant007
    Regarding intelligence, I have an intuitive opinion that it just worked better than all other services, as always.

    of course)) I knew better than the Abwehr that they would trample on us) The Germans just badly imagined what awaited them - what forces of the Red Army they would meet .. And on FOUR districts they saw as many as SEVEN tank divisions with us ..)) True, they saw tanks, but there were pieces - they knew "saw" under 40 tank brigades)))

    And what - did this ignorance prevent the Germans from smashing our troops to dust? NO! And therefore, the conclusion is that it’s not for reconnaissance that we need to look for the reasons that almost all our warriors at the beginning of WWII (((
  29. VS
    VS 18 October 2019 08: 21
    -6
    Quote: cavl
    MAISH KSHI - from 15 to 20 on May they passed and then on 24 on May they summed up results by Stalin on them - then NOT 180-190 German divisions are participating in the attack on the USSR, but just about 120 pieces in total)))


    Show the facts that it is.
    I took a piece of paper and counted.
    There were no May games in PriOVO - no need to lie

    long-haired lane .. I’ll tell you the perspectives - in the districts it’s not KSH but KSHU playing)) KSHIs in May were in the General Staff)))

    don’t worry - you just don’t know much about grandpa))) I’m old .. I’m a superstar for boys who are 20-30 years old but you are an adult for me for years))) so calm down - you just don’t know much about where you climbed wave your old shaka)))
  30. VS
    VS 18 October 2019 08: 30
    -6
    Quote: cavl
    What was in the intelligence report for May 15? By the time after which the number 180 was written in the draft document document with reference to intelligence data?

    And there were 9 divisions in Slovakia and Hungary. In total, we reached the 153 German divisions.


    So - “Special message of the Reconnaissance Directorate of the General Staff of the Red Army“ On the distribution of armed forces in theaters of war and the fronts of operations as of 15.05.41 ”No. 660506ss 15 May 1941
    The regrouping of German troops in the first half of May is characterized by the continued strengthening of the group against the USSR throughout the western and south-western borders, including Romania, a further reinforcement of forces for operations against England in the Middle East, Africa and Norway.
    Accounting and comparison of the received data gives the following distribution of the German armed forces along borders and fronts on 15 on May 1941:
    In the border zone with the USSR. The total number of German troops against the USSR reaches 114 — 119 divisions, including 6 divisions located in the area of ​​Danzig — Poznan — Thorn. Of these, infantry — 82 — 87, mountain — 6, tank — 13, motorized — 12 cavalry — 1". (“CA RF MoD. Op. 7237. D. 2. L. 109 – 113. The mailing list is indicated to Stalin, Molotov, Voroshilov, Timoshenko, Beria, Kuznetsov, Zhdanov, Zhukov, Budyonny, Shaposhnikov, Kulik, Meretskov, Zaporozhets.” Source - V. Lot. "Secret front of the General Staff. Book on military intelligence. 1940-1942." M. 2005g., Pp. 226)
    As you can see — the Wehrmacht’s strength was strengthened near the borders with the USSR — almost to the 120 divisions in practice — and this includes troops located right up to Danzig, which is about 300 km from the border. And then it is shown - north of Polesie, RU sees about 60 German divisions, including just under Danzig. And south of RU sees about 60 divisions, i.e. no more than to the north, and shows the distribution of German forces as equal relative to Polesye!
    1. cavl
      cavl 18 October 2019 10: 09
      +7
      And what follows from this? Where is it written that this data was used in games or exercises ??
      You are wrong this does not follow from the submitted document. Do not forget that the 20-25 divisions were seen in Romania against the OdVO and the southern front of KOVO. Hungary and Slovakia are still 10-15. Further Lublin group and Krakow. This is for 40 divisions and a huge mythical group for Poznan.
      There is much over 150_170. I will not guess, I will wait for the next part of the article
      1. bubalik
        bubalik 18 October 2019 14: 42
        +5
        cavl (Vladimir) Today, 11: 09
        V.S. (Vasily) Today, 09: 30


        As you can see — the Wehrmacht’s strength was strengthened near the borders with the USSR — almost to the 120 divisions

        There is much over 150_170.

        Good afternoon! hi
        GRU - a compendium on the study of the experience of the enemy in the 1941 - 1945 war. Changes in the organization, armament, manning and strength of the German ground forces. Moscow 1946
        ,,, I don’t know which of you in your dispute will help what or maybe she is not needed request
      2. VS
        VS 18 October 2019 21: 05
        -4
        Quote: cavl
        Where is it written that this data was used in games or exercises ??

        but where does the data of RU and KSH in the GSh?))) on KSHI NEVER WHAT WE KNOW - they don’t show))) as it is not shown that in OUR WORKING plans in the "details" is painted))
        at the KSI in May, the German Air Force almost tripled))) at the introductory at the KSI))) complicating the task for the districts))

        Quote: cavl
        You are wrong this does not follow from the submitted document. Do not forget that the 20-25 divisions were seen in Romania against the OdVO and the southern front of KOVO. Hungary and Slovakia are still 10-15. Further Lublin group and Krakow. This is for 40 divisions and a huge mythical group for Poznan.
        There is much over 150_170. I will not guess, I will wait for the next parts to become

        you yourself read the report; there is NO THERE more than 120 divisions - AGAINST the USSR)))
  31. VS
    VS 18 October 2019 08: 32
    -7
    Quote: cavl
    Give data that along our entire border only 120 divisions watched the May Kshu.

    Grandpa - KSU and KSHI are DIFFERENT events)) KSHU in districts carried out - and KSHI in GSh carry out))) And in May they had their KSHs - from 15 to 22 on May))) They checked the military units of the districts and the actions of the Air Force in Pribovo and ZAPOVO - to repel German air force strikes, first of all)))
    1. cavl
      cavl 18 October 2019 10: 02
      +6
      So what's next? Where are the xnumx divisions?
      1. cavl
        cavl 25 October 2019 13: 50
        +3
        Alle, a garage? Where are the documents on 120 divisions? Apparently lied and nothing to show. and writes books .....
        Apparently they are constantly lying ....
  32. VS
    VS 18 October 2019 08: 36
    -7
    Quote: cavl
    facts about Zhukov’s call from the Kremlin where?

    GS operative officer can call in districts and warn them in 22.00 about an important encryption ONLY according to the PERSONAL indication of the beginning of the GS or DRUG))) WERE THE TWO AT THIS time? That's right, grandfather - in Stalin’s office)) WHO of them will call the Chief Operations Officer at the General Staff and give him a command to warn the district about an important encryption so that THIS time is composing - for a full BG. - in Stalin’s office? That's right - not for sure)))
    1. cavl
      cavl 18 October 2019 10: 01
      +5
      And where is the call of the operational officer of the General Staff in the memoirs of the commander of the ODVO?
      I explain. In Zakharov’s memoirs, an error in time. Chekunov told you this. Victoria. Evgeniy. I'm German.
      In the documents of the OdVO parts, this slips.
      In the memoirs of com. OdVO troops, which confirm their accuracy.
      These are the words of a defense addict that he calls him last. And the commander did not expect anything important from Moscow, so before that there were no calls.
      Time he calls true 23-00. The next call will be to the Navy addict after 23-00 and this is confirmed. OdVO is the last in addressing. Next is a copy of Kuznetsov. Everything is logical.
      OVDO faces KOVO, but there are no witnesses left. KOVO faces the ZAPOVO and there, too, everyone was shot or left no memories.
      But there are Sandalov’s recollections that the district chief of staff called their headquarters.
      The retold conversation is very reminiscent of a conversation between Cherednichenko and Tymoshenko. And the time is 23-00. The 4 Army is the second in the mailing list in the district. And then it all fits together. While Tymoshenko calls KOVO, Klimovsky calls Kuznetsov (3 army).
      Then follow calls of Tymoshenko Cherednichenko, and Klimovskys to the 4 Army.
      You just should not come up with versions, but systematize the same events ....
      1. VS
        VS 18 October 2019 21: 13
        -3
        Quote: cavl
        where is the call of the operative officer of the General Staff in the memoirs of the commander of the ODVO?
        I explain. In Zakharov’s memoirs, an error in time. Chekunov told you this. Victoria. Evgeniy. I'm German.

        Yes, you never know what the ignoramuses tell me)) And the fact that someone didn’t reflect something in his memoirs was very close and alas (((


        Quote: cavl
        In the documents of the OdVO parts, this slips.


        what warned them? definitely - as in the answers to Pokrovsky the same)))


        Quote: cavl
        OVDO faces KOVO, but there are no witnesses left

        and Zhukov writes that at midnight he called there)))
      2. ccsr
        ccsr 21 October 2019 11: 34
        -4
        Quote: cavl
        And where is the call of the operational officer of the General Staff in the memoirs of the commander of the ODVO?

        Do not beat the crap - officers of the General Operations Directorate do not have the right to call the district commander or chief of staff without an order. The OPERATIVE DUTY of the People’s Commissariat of Defense (or General Staff) could call the district, and even then only to the same operational duty, if he didn’t have an order to DIRECTLY call the commander or NS of the district from the People’s Commissar or the NHS. Do you even understand the hierarchy regarding districts and higher structures, so as not to fantasize about who and for what reason can call the command of the district?
        Quote: cavl
        In Zakharov’s memoirs, an error in time.

        Prove it, not just verbiage, but specific documents or testimonies of other eyewitnesses.
        Quote: cavl
        Chekunov told you this.

        Chekunov spoke a lot of stupid things at the time, starting about how the Directive b / n was transmitted from one telegraph apparatus, and this caused a delay. So bring a specific text from Chekunov, wherever he would prove that before sending the directive there were no calls to the districts by order of the People's Commissar (NHS).
        Quote: cavl
        Victoria. Eugene. I'm German.

        The opinion of this public in general cannot be taken seriously, like all anonymous authors on the network hiding under nicknames.
        Quote: cavl
        And the commander did not expect anything important from Moscow, so before that there were no calls.

        Complete nonsense, because Zhukov or Timoshenko himself could, during a meeting with Stalin, leave the office for documents or maps that Vatutin had, and give him an order to call the operational duty officer of the People's Commissariat of Defense (GSH) so that he would start calling districts in order to warn the district command that an important order will be sent to them, and that everyone would sit and wait in their places. This is a common practice in the General Staff (NPO), when the chief, who has not yet arrived from the meeting, through his duty officer gives orders to a certain category of subordinate officials to come to his reception room. So Zhukov or Vatutin could themselves call from Stalin's reception, if a decision had already been made to send a directive, and this is nothing unusual for military professionals. But amateurs like you and "Victoria. Eugene. Nemets." Naturally, they do not know about this, so they think that Zakharov was mistaken in time.
        1. cavl
          cavl 25 October 2019 13: 47
          +4
          And who wrote that general staff on duty can call without Zhukov’s team? Why are you giving out your heresy for my words ???
          Let’s bring a couple of facts that the operational duty officer called the districts before the arrival of the people's commissar of defense and the chief of the General Staff from there! Only proven, and all lies!
          1. cavl
            cavl 25 October 2019 13: 49
            +4
            Stop - stop kozinkin! where did you get that "General Operations Officer can call districts and warn them at 22.00 p.m."??? Why are you slipping your version to readers ??

            This time is available only in Zakharov’s memoirs and this time is refuted by the words of the commander of the OdVO and documents of the compounds of the OdVO? You already bother to bring another plausible fact
            No need to lie to us
  33. VS
    VS 18 October 2019 08: 38
    -6
    Quote: cavl
    "vyzhirnie" is a new pearl of Kozinkin put into circulation. All he could do was to survive text in applications ..

    I - I’m jailing out the main thing)) You can isolate the current and you can))) in accordance with age - ...)))
    1. cavl
      cavl 18 October 2019 09: 39
      +5
      You are our bouncer ... You wouldn’t lie ...
  34. VS
    VS 18 October 2019 08: 41
    -7
    Quote: cavl
    After Martirosian’s fictitious material about flying along the border as directed by Stalin himself appeared in the 12 volume about the war, one cannot believe in allegedly authoritative works. And referring to them is the height of amateurism or fraud to advance the books in the book field. Business Above All ....


    well, so refute that RU did not bring to Stalin or Zhukov denunciation of 19, 20 and 21 of June)))

    senile grumble that everyone doesn’t lie) everyone lies that they can FIVE times a night - and so do you - or
    mutter that they are lying or - lie that you can))) cho you still have)))
    1. cavl
      cavl 18 October 2019 09: 37
      +6
      Why give out your words to mine, liar?
  35. VS
    VS 18 October 2019 08: 44
    -7
    Quote: cavl
    How do your general staffs explain the fact of not increasing the number of German troops according to intelligence? But no way - you can’t tell them about it. And if they are silent, then they lie ...

    grandpa - why should they increase if they didn’t increase - from June 1 and June 22 to the total?))) I saw that they were on May 15 and June 1 - 120 and sherry was shown to them - they’ve shown a drain)) on 21 of June, DRAIN is the same - well, and the sinklets of the runoff are shown)))
    1. cavl
      cavl 18 October 2019 09: 35
      +7
      Pruchilno, German troops and stood in the same places as the 15 in May according to intelligence. Far from the border .....
      And to conduct an offensive for 50-100 while in the depths of their territory only full nerds can, and German generals were able to think and fight. Therefore, they did not expect the war precisely on June 22, since more than half of the troops were in one and a half - two crossings from the border!
      And this is one of the problems of the situation at dawn 22 June.
      But if there is no knowledge, then she is the highest mathematics for you
      1. VS
        VS 18 October 2019 21: 15
        -4
        Quote: cavl
        German troops still stood in the same places as May 15, according to intelligence. Far from the border .....

        everything is relative - border guards intelligence tracked which trains and with what they go through BUCHAREST)))

        Quote: cavl
        We didn’t expect the war on June 22, since more than half of the troops were in one and a half - two crossings from the border!

        )) neighing everything in this nonsense)))
        1. cavl
          cavl 25 October 2019 13: 45
          +4
          Now I'm spoiling !!! Intelligence tracked through Bucharest? !!!!
          Are these mythical troops in which, according to both intelligence, there were up to half of the German tank and motorized divisions? 900 tanks alone ?! But in fact zero!

          If only you would sometimes think when you bring the facts ... This is a direct confirmation of the German desa !!! Here is an amateur
  36. VS
    VS 18 October 2019 08: 46
    -7
    Quote: cavl
    How did Kozinkin himself explain this fact? I just took and came up with the version that they simply moved to the border from the depths and again not a single fact.

    Well cho attacks - intelligence with a TOTAL amount was mistaken or not - on those dates?))
    1. cavl
      cavl 18 October 2019 09: 31
      +6
      I answered the question, but the fact that you did not understand my answer is the lack of specialized knowledge.
      And if there is no specialized knowledge, then the maximum of your opportunities to insult our military leaders nicknames and non-commissioners ...
      And the problem is that you do not have enough intelligence and knowledge to evaluate their actions .....
  37. VS
    VS 18 October 2019 08: 47
    -7
    Quote: cavl
    strange but expected, it turned out that many regiments about which they wrote in intelligence reports could not be at the border. And it turns out that the General Staffists are lying ... You as usual will slip away by sending the authors of the book for confirmation ...

    yes pelevatt on the NUMBERS of your regiments)) The military doesn’t need numbers, but - the NUMBER is general, but it was given by intelligence completely)))
    1. cavl
      cavl 18 October 2019 09: 29
      +4
      The number of regiments? Is it like the amount of plumbing in your warehouse?
      If the shelves are false, then they are located in places favorable to the Germans. Therefore, there are no tank and mechanized numbers.
      These regiments disappeared from cities inland. But you don’t understand this. To do this, it was necessary to train the mind with military affairs, and not to shift hardware
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 18 October 2019 20: 38
        -5
        Quote: cavl
        If the shelves are false, then they are located in places favorable to the Germans.

        I wonder where you saw the "fake" shelves? You seem to have heard the jingle about the cropped parts, but didn't fully understand why they were created.
        Quote: cavl
        Therefore, there are no tank and mechanized numbers.

        Do not fantasize "military expert" - the Germans, even in the commander's SdKfz 251 (250) armored personnel carriers, not to mention the tanks, had a radio station, moreover, powerful enough, and which could be identified by our radio intelligence officers, and, accordingly, determined in which radio network it works. If only they were ashamed to show their ignorance, "military pensioner".
        Quote: cavl
        To do this, train the mind with military affairs,

        It looks like you didn’t bother much with this, since you don’t know the basics of military affairs, and are nonsense about the fact that the German regiments in the General Staff did not take into account. In general, laugh, burn on ....
        1. cavl
          cavl 25 October 2019 13: 42
          +3
          If there was a walkie-talkie in every armored personnel carrier, then tell us all the documents: where did our brave radio intelligence officers find tank groups and motorized corps? Well, come on, any document! Just do not write about the ships!
          Let me explain - tanks on tracks are land vehicles with one gun, and ships sail or go to sea?
          Come on facts, milchaks. Do not languish us
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 25 October 2019 18: 07
            -5
            Quote: cavl
            If there was a walkie-talkie in every armored personnel carrier, then tell us all the documents: where did our brave radio intelligence officers find tank groups and motorized corps? Well, come on, any document!

            Summary No. 5 details where and what headquarters were located, including the headquarters of the EAST Army Group. Have you ever seen this report in your eyes, or will you lie again that there are no places for the deployment of army headquarters?
            1. cavl
              cavl 28 October 2019 09: 42
              +2
              What was the name of the "headquarters of the eastern group" called by intelligence?
              What is the relationship between the three army groups that took part in the war with the USSR and between the mythical headquarters of the eastern group?


              Lie something
              1. ccsr
                ccsr 28 October 2019 13: 47
                -3
                Quote: cavl
                What was the name of the "headquarters of the eastern group" called by intelligence?

                You are definitely an illiterate pensioner - we and the Germans do not have common names for the front headquarters or army groups, which is why, in our understanding, based on the name of our Western OVO, this group was given the code name "Eastern Group".
                And if you were even a little interested in history, and studied the map of Poland, then you would have added that in this case it was about the headquarters of the German group "South", although for us it did not care, because the main thing is to know the number and the deployment of the Wehrmacht formations.
                Quote: cavl
                What is the relationship between the three army groups that took part in the war with the USSR and between the mythical headquarters of the eastern group?

                The most direct one - it was most likely the headquarters of the armies "South", which was opened on June 1, 1941.
                Quote: cavl
                Lie something

                You’re lying here only with the author of the article, and I deny your lie.
  38. VS
    VS 18 October 2019 08: 49
    -5
    Quote: cavl
    How did you, our spiritualist, learn about Zhukov’s call from the Kremlin?
    How did you find out and include in your books?

    and cho so sausages that from this FACT?) Well called and called))) Breaks your picture of the world where you have STALIN in this guilty that believed type Hitler? DO NOT choke on anger at Stalin's grandfather)))
    1. cavl
      cavl 18 October 2019 09: 26
      +5
      Another juggling, kozinkin? Pulling on his side admirers of Stalin? And where have I even offended Joseph Vissariontvich with a word ?!
      Here is a liar!
      Where are the facts from your little book that Zhukov called from the Kremlin ??
      Insolent liar deceiving readers
      1. cavl
        cavl 25 October 2019 13: 40
        +3
        Kozinkin, where did I write about Stalin? Do not lie to us: maybe I just forgot - sclerosis with age ...
        or did you lie, as usual ?!
  39. VS
    VS 18 October 2019 08: 52
    -6
    Quote: RuSFr
    Well said
    Shitting and lying, shitting again and lying again

    you are anonymous such entertainers)))

    I don’t hide my NAME so I don’t need to be afraid that some boobies and ignoramuses anonymous will convict me)) But THOSE who are hiding behind a dog-clicher network - he’s lying just because he’s afraid)))
    1. cavl
      cavl 18 October 2019 09: 24
      +3
      You did not name your surname for decency, but for the sake of crushing authority. And when it failed, they tried to find fans on the site.
  40. VS
    VS 18 October 2019 08: 53
    -6
    Quote: cavl
    And bring us a pigeon-liar, a link to any reconnaissance document where our reconnaissance has discovered Army Group B, A or C.

    the current is finished and may think that since the reconnaissance of the TG and GA "did not find" it means they did not expect an attack))) I hope you are not that - grandpa?))
    1. cavl
      cavl 18 October 2019 09: 22
      +5
      Only an expert from the warehouse can say that if the front headquarters are not deployed on the eastern border of the Reich, then war should be expected!

      Not having a single front, how can Germany start a war! Well, a special writer
      1. cavl
        cavl 25 October 2019 13: 39
        +3
        the current is finished and may think that since the reconnaissance of the TG and GA "did not find" it means they did not expect an attack))) I hope you are not that - grandpa?))

        Only a complete amateur in military affairs can think that if they were not found, then the attack will occur on June 22
  41. VS
    VS 18 October 2019 08: 55
    -6
    Quote: cavl
    Eugene is looking forward to continuing! A loyal reader is a military pensioner from the group: those who are far beyond 70

    save the hospadi from such fans)))
    1. cavl
      cavl 18 October 2019 09: 20
      +3
      And you don’t have much ....
      Four days 500 views ....

      And the last part of Eugene is less than a day and 15000
      1. cavl
        cavl 18 October 2019 09: 41
        +2
        Honestly, I feel sorry for you, but boorish manner and lie require my answer
      2. ccsr
        ccsr 18 October 2019 13: 39
        -5
        Quote: cavl
        And the last part of Eugene is less than a day and 15000

        No wonder - you both work for the public, spreading ordered lies, and not to establish historical truth. So keep bragging about pout ratings, antonyms - you’re unlikely to be the one to be taken seriously by professionals.
  42. VS
    VS 18 October 2019 20: 50
    -3
    Quote: ccsr
    As a rule, they all differ in one thing - the lack of knowledge of military affairs and the inability to correctly understand military documents, and hence the dream of reason gives rise to monsters. As a rule, there are no military professionals among this audience, and therefore everything that does not fit into their brain is necessarily a lie.

    These are the anonymous ones unfinished by whom the VO provides with their nonsense complete "freedom of speech" - not the worst thing))) There are worse characters .. Rezun is much more disgusting (((.. The most striking example is ISAV that bears a blizzard on a blue eye about their red buttons and being late with him and does not blush - engaged in direct falsification of the causes of the tragedy of the beginning of the Second World War - more than 15 years ago! This is where the most rotten is buried (((
  43. VS
    VS 18 October 2019 20: 52
    -3
    Quote: icant007
    Acquaintance with the multitude of military-historical literature gives these unscrupulous authors a false idea that they understand the issue. They are pulling some numbers out of context, but are not ready to take into account all the details and systematically look at ...

    Have you read it - "Myths about June 22 ..."?))
  44. VS
    VS 18 October 2019 20: 55
    -3
    Quote: ccsr
    you’re spoiling the air here with him. By the way, why are you afraid to name your surnames, and at the same time carefully hide them?

    so liars are ALWAYS anonymous)) This is from Rezun they rushing))) and suddenly drawn to a lie (((
  45. VS
    VS 18 October 2019 20: 58
    -3
    Quote: ccsr
    you offer them a list of OPERATIONAL daily reports by Golikov, the existence of which they do not even suspect. I have already tried to explain to these amateurs what daily intelligence is, but they are so illiterate that they don’t even understand the different levels of these documents, so you’re unlikely to convince them of anything.

    sucks that ALL of those reports and reports will not be published soon)) Isaevschina and other anonymous expanse will be long - to carry nonsense for intelligence as the culprits of our defeats at the beginning of the Second World War (((
  46. VS
    VS 18 October 2019 21: 07
    0
    Quote: bubalik
    maybe she is not needed

    Thanks unambiguously))) can you give the exact name - WHERE is this published?
  47. VS
    VS 18 October 2019 21: 10
    -3
    Quote: cavl
    So what's next? Where are the xnumx divisions?

    on these KSHs there were - about 120 divisions from the Germans during the attack - on the introduction - to the SSR involved)))
  48. VS
    VS 18 October 2019 21: 17
    -4
    Quote: cavl
    The number of regiments? Is it like the amount of plumbing in your warehouse?
    If the shelves are fake, t

    grandpa told you - not GSh regiments are of interest but DIVISIONS ()))
    1. cavl
      cavl 25 October 2019 13: 38
      +3
      Again, stupidity is written. If the divisions are interested, then why do intelligence reports on the army of Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania mention the number of armies, corps, and then divisions and brigades go on? !!!
      Tighten the darling head if there is anything left in it .... Yes, because of the amateur, that there was information about these armed forces, but about the German it was absent or implausible!
  49. VS
    VS 18 October 2019 21: 18
    -4
    Quote: cavl
    Another juggling, kozinkin? Pulling on his side admirers of Stalin? And where have I even offended Joseph Vissariontvich with a word ?!

    ignoramus lies that the attack did not wait on June 2)))
    1. cavl
      cavl 25 October 2019 13: 36
      +1
      So you can only misinterpret other people's words or give your own as the words of another person. Fraudster OdnakO
  50. VS
    VS 18 October 2019 21: 22
    -4
    Quote: cavl
    You did not name your surname for decency, but for the sake of crushing authority. And when it failed, they tried to find fans on the site.

    on .. RENE do I need fans? ((save the hospadi from them)) I’m interested in just you - critics)) I’ve done more than one book on your bullshit - as on the example of ignorant delirium)))

    right now I'm preparing a book for Isaev))) I’m showing something here))
    https://liewar.ru/tragediya-22-iyunya/347-antiisaev.html )))

    a little later will be continued - learn how to kick batans)))
    1. cavl
      cavl 25 October 2019 13: 35
      +1
      If only on the site "For the truth" at least one person would approve of your nonsense
      Just nobody wants to react to such nonsense. It’s the same as coming to the madhouse to listen to the words of any patient .........