How to prevent a war with America. Russia needs a new Gorbachev!

194
Project "ZZ". An expert opinion has been rooted in the United States that hostility towards “undemocratic” Russia with its anti-Americanism will decline when Putin is replaced by an enlightened liberal leader. Analysts who believe that the war between the US and Russia can be prevented in this political way, believe that the Russians, seeking freedom, "sooner or later" put forward on the competitive stage of the policy of new leaders. They will carry out liberal reforms and make friends with Washington. The scenario for this is already known: it was such a course that Mikhail Gorbachev conducted and continued Boris Yeltsin.





Peace, friendship, chewing gum


Mr. George Beebe, author of The Russia Trap: How Our Shadow War with Russia Could Spiral into Nuclear Catastrophe, argues on the so-called shadow war, which could turn into a nuclear war. in September 2019 of the year.

Look at the cover of this book. Of course, there is Putin. And under his portrait are scary words about a nuclear disaster. The author, by the way, is a great specialist in the analysis of Russia and all kinds of disasters there: he was not engaged in Russian analytics anywhere but in the CIA. And even headed the department for the analysis of Russia there. Today, he is director of research at the Center for National Interests, a think tank in Washington, which does not relate to any of the American parties. In a word, here we have a real analyst with a status, a real impartial expert.



And this same D. Bib offers - not in his book, but in a magazine "Politico"who published his material - to draw the American Democrats and Republicans to the likelihood of a nuclear conflict with Russia. He also considers a number of theses that can be considered the stereotypical foundations of hostility between America and Russia. His material also cites political paths that could lead to a rapprochement between Washington and Moscow.

The material makes a reservation: all the facts, opinions or analysis expressed in the article belong to the author himself and do not reflect the official positions or views of the CIA or any other US government agency. It is also noted that this material was read at the CIA in order to clarify whether something secret was disclosed there. (Apparently not, since the text was censored.)

The threat of a nuclear war with Russia is higher than what the United States thinks, the author is convinced. And if so, US lawmakers from both parties should address this danger.

George Bib recalls that in the 1950s and 1960s, Americans “rightly feared” the prospects of a nuclear war with the Soviet Union: in those days, schoolchildren regularly participated in bombing exercises, federal, state, and local governments worked on case of nuclear war. Many citizens built bomb shelters in the backyards and stored all sorts of stocks there ...

Today, the old fear of a nuclear disaster has almost disappeared, Bib writes further. However, "the real threat of a nuclear catastrophe is much higher than we think." Bib is confident that diplomacy and complacency have led to a “false sense of security,” which leaves Americans “unprepared and extremely vulnerable to Russia's nuclear attack.”

The author considers the death of the Treaty on intermediate and shorter-range missiles to be a sign of impending catastrophe. The new START treaty, which entered into force under the Obama administration, seems to be waiting for "the same fate" in 2021. In fact, almost all of the key US-Russian provisions on arms control and building confidence in the Cold War era are dead, the analyst said.

Here's another danger: US officials, both from Democrats and Republicans, are not focusing on how to avoid a nuclear disaster. No, politicians are interested in something completely different: how would they show how tough they look in the confrontation “with revanchist Russia and its leader Vladimir Putin”. And President Donald Trump’s proposal for a study by the United States and Russia of ways to resolve disagreements on a diplomatic basis is mainly condemnation.

Having worked for the US government for more than a quarter of a century, Mr. Bib made three main conclusions - he formulated three erroneous assumptions that underlie the complacency of the United States.

Firstly, American politicians believe that since neither side wants a nuclear war, then such a war is unlikely to happen. If the "cold war" ended peacefully, then why should America worry about a new "shadow war"?

The author recalls in this connection that wars do not always begin with a “plan”. Example: World War I. Today, cyber technologies, artificial intelligence, modern hypersonic delivery systems weapons and anti-satellite weapons make the US-Russian shadow war far more complex and dangerous than the old geopolitical rivalry of the Cold War. The traditional borders between espionage and war have been erased, nuclear and traditional weapons are “mixed,” the old differences between offensive and defensive operations are a thing of the past.

Secondly, the Russian threat to American politicians is seen primarily as a "deterrence problem." The logic looks something like this: the United States can hold back a likely conflict by preventing it by tightening economic sanctions, boosting military assistance to Europe, and conducting more aggressive cyber operations. Here is the best way to save the world.

But such a way of preventing aggression instead of America may inadvertently increase the chances of war, says the analyst. The years of NATO expansion and the alleged US involvement in Russia's internal affairs have already convinced the Kremlin that America is an existential threat, the author recalls. “In turn,” Bib continues, “Russia's intervention in the 2016 US presidential election, combined with a series of aggressions against its neighbors, convinced Washington that Moscow was hitting the Achilles heel of the West.”

With a similar phenomenon of "spiral", says Bib, the United States faced in the 2008 year in Georgia. Politicians from Washington accelerated US military training in Georgia, openly advocated Tbilisi joining NATO, and repeatedly warned Moscow about military operations. Saying this, politicians in Washington believed that their “firm determination” would deter Russia from any action. “In fact, it’s the opposite effect,” says Bib.



Third, the United States suggests that "anti-Americanism Russia stems from the inner nature of its regime." Consequently, hostility will decrease when Putin is replaced by a “more enlightened leader who adheres to more liberal approaches.” Sooner or later, supporters of this point of view believe that the unsatisfied desire of Russians for freedom will lead to the formation of a "new leadership in Russia." And this new government will "promote liberal reforms and seek friendly relations with Washington, as Mikhail Gorbachev and Boris Yeltsin once did." As for the “compromise with the Putin regime,” American politicians find this “not only immoral, but also unnecessary and counterproductive.”

However, Bib believes that the notion that Moscow “hates us for what we are, that is, for democracy, and not for how we influence the important interests of Russia,” does not converge with business (if not friendly) relations RF with democracies that it does not find threats. As examples of such democracies, D. Bib names Israel, India, and Japan.

The reality is that Russia's differences with Washington stem from a deep mix of geopolitical, historical and systemic factors. And they will by no means disappear into thin air when Putin leaves.

What to do?

Controlling variable factors in US-Russian relations is a difficult but far from impossible task, Bib is convinced. Washington should objectively approach this issue and learn to “balance” hardness with compliance, military readiness with diplomatic influence. Nor should one “excessively deviate” towards concessions or confrontation. Yes, it is "difficult balance", but at the moment the United States "do not even try to do so," said the expert. Such an approach will require more responsible US-Russian communications and new rules of the game: after all, we are talking about new weapons systems, cyber technologies and changes in the world order.

However, all this “will be impossible” if the real danger of war is not recognized. No, not a modern variation of “planned aggression” in the style of the Second World War, but a nascent spiral of escalation of the conflict along the lines of the First World War. This growing danger, Bib is sure, today "few people realize." And this threat, if nothing changes, "can lead to disaster."

Caribbean Crisis 2


The place of the start of a new disaster was also named. Looks like the Caribbean Crisis of 2.0 is coming.

Ryan Berg in a magazine "Foreign Policy" calls on Washington to reconsider its strategy, for Russia is "preparing for a conflict with the United States in the Caribbean" ("Russia Is Gearing Up for a Conflict With the United States in the Caribbean").

Moscow supports the Venezuelan leader Maduro and relocates his troops off the coast, which means that Washington “must reconsider its own strategy,” the analyst notes. New conflicts around the world can be threatening, but only one conflict, “in the backyard of the United States,” can be truly dangerous.

Despite U.S. sanctions on Venezuelan state-owned oil company Petróleos de Venezuela (PDVSA), oil from that country is still flowing to world markets. And the central mediator in oil exports is Rosneft! This Russian state oil company accepts Venezuelan oil in the form of repayment of a loan.

Berg is convinced that in this way, President Putin "plays a leading role in keeping the Venezuelan dictator Nicolas Maduro afloat." And as long as Putin is doing, the current policy of the US sanctions will not change much in Venezuela. And if so, Washington "needs to rethink its strategy to remove the Venezuelan leader - and do it in the near future."

As the PDVSA customer list has declined, Rosneft has quickly overtaken all other companies and has already become the largest Venezuelan oil trader. If in July 2019 the company processed 40 percent of PDVSA oil exports, then by August it was already processing 66%. Recently, PDVSA even opened an office in Moscow. At such rates of cooperation, Venezuelan loans can be fully repaid at the end of the 2019 year or at the beginning of the 2020.

The presence of Russia in Venezuela, the author of the material considers "the most significant in the Western Hemisphere since the missile crisis in Cuba." And this presence (the author has no doubt) will continue "long after the excuse in the form of collecting Venezuelan debts has exhausted itself."

The Kremlin’s recent moves indicate that Putin intends to intervene even deeper in Venezuela’s affairs, both militarily and financially. The August meeting of the defense ministers of Russia and Venezuela led to an agreement that the warships of the two countries can visit each other's ports, possibly in preparation for future cooperation in the field of territorial defense. Without a doubt, Russians remember reports that US President Donald Trump is obsessed with the idea of ​​a naval blockade of Venezuela. In conjunction with the Russian naval agreement with Nicaragua, the deployment of warships and submarines from the ports of Venezuela can be aimed at refusing to conduct US naval operations in the southern Caribbean. So the Cubans have already demanded, the author adds, that Russia “escort the tankers transporting lots of free oil of Venezuela” to their island “with limited resources”. In addition, according to K. Fuller, head of the US Southern Command, Russian forces surrounded Venezuela garrisons. Making an "interference in Ukraine model, Russian soldiers put the" form of the Venezuelan army. " And here’s the “worst”: the Russians “are openly thinking about deploying cruise missiles in Venezuela in response to the US withdrawing from the Medium and Shorter Range Missile Treaty.” “The echoes of the Cuban missile crisis scare!” The author expresses her fear.

How to prevent a war with America. Russia needs a new Gorbachev!


Berg advises the US administration to "strengthen its sanctions game." It is necessary to apply the new embargo and keep the "creative" exists - it is "the only chance to shift the Maduro." And at the top of the new sanctions list, Rosneft should be registered - perhaps it is Maduro’s best ally. In addition, the United States “should consider the Maduro regime as a regime akin to the criminal network, and not as a separate political entity.”


* * *


So, to the third world war, which begins with a conflict between the United States and Russia, will lead to a spontaneous "escalation spiral." Turn after turn - and here you have a nuclear disaster, historically similar to the 1914 catastrophe of the year, but with different consequences. Such, after which there will be no oil, neither the USA, nor Russia, nor, perhaps, the planet.

And in fact, no clear prescriptions prevention of nuclear war, the transition of the shadow of the war, experts do not give into nuclear conflict. The discussion of control over “volatile factors in US-Russian relations” looks more like idle chatter of retired CIA analysts than suggestions in the spirit of “real politicians”. Yes, and it’s funny to observe when various kinds of analysts say about compliance at the moment when all the leading centers of world power seemed to conspire to demonstrate intransigence. When the world order changes before our eyes, the diplomacy of pliability is impossible. And it is not for nothing that other experts are waiting for a politician similar to Gorbachev to come to power in Russia. Gorbachev is just an expert in the policy of concessions at the wrong time.

As for Russia, the West does not expect from it a “liberal” politician who will succeed Putin, but a crisis a la 1992 for a year. Moscow with his legs, in debt and in the pit of inflation - that's what the picture sweet hearts of American politicians. And because the procedure for cases in which Russia is seeking debt with Venezuela, angers other experts on foreign policy.
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  1. +32
    15 October 2019 15: 06
    Russia needs a new Gorbachev!

    Russia needs Stalin! There will be no war with the United States. The ideology is the same now, but they can print money and buy who and what the United States wants, and so they can afford it. More precisely, everything they need has already been bought. Russia plays by the rules of the United States and only occasionally snaps when the United States begins to become impudent ..
    1. +26
      15 October 2019 15: 25
      Russia needs a new Gorbachev!

      All the old is not worthy "carry out".
      1. -8
        15 October 2019 15: 48
        This is unnecessary, violence will never bring to good
        1. +14
          15 October 2019 16: 01
          The American ex-CIA analyst’s concern for US security is simply astounding when he talks about the developing cooperation of the Russian Federation in Venezuela!

          Wherein is Venezuela and where is the USA? On different - South and North - continents, divided among themselves by buffer countries and seas!

          And at the same time, the American is completely silent about the fact that American troops are already directly on the borders with the Russian Federation and, for example, are already photographing with joyful anticipation in Estonia after the NATO maneuvers led by the Pentagon against the backdrop of the Ivangorod fortress in the Russian part of Ivan City!
          What did these American warriors forget and want there? Of course there will be a war. And the USA will start it!
          All that bothers the American, the ex-CIA officer, is only that America itself would not receive "change" from Russia!

          TSRushniki just become insolent to death! Already logs in their eyes do not see!

          1. +3
            15 October 2019 17: 39
            They will immediately notice everything when we shove something or someone like a second humpback in one place, so let them lubricate to make it easier to enter. It's a pity you can’t be three-storyed. I would speak more colorful.
            1. 0
              18 October 2019 10: 49
              No, they are unlikely to succeed. There, the people will not tolerate those who destroy their state and in which case they will take up arms in order to protect what they believe in.
          2. +3
            16 October 2019 14: 37
            Will there be a war? And who will give the order? Putin? Which has children in Germany. And with a diplomatic note will Lavrov go? Whose son has an American passport. They can be listed by name.
            All our leaders are bought with giblets by Western countries. Their families, finances, real estate and well-being depend on Western politicians. They themselves voluntarily betrayed their homeland and consider it only as a source of profit and nothing more. And the one who thinks that our rulers will defend some Russian interests right up to the military conflict with the West is that complete.
            1. -3
              16 October 2019 14: 48
              Quote: DwellerNet
              Will there be a war? And who will give the order? Putin?
              And the one who thinks that our rulers will defend some Russian interests right up to the military conflict with the West is that complete.

              If you answer this to me, then it is clearly written to me:
              Quote: Tatiana
              Of course there will be a war. And the USA will start it!

              Read the comments carefully!
              1. +1
                21 October 2019 06: 36
                Rave. World oil prices will collapse and our tops will capitulate themselves. The situation with Rusal clearly showed. Without war they take what is needed
            2. 0
              18 October 2019 19: 22
              Quote: DwellerNet
              And who will give the order? Putin? Which has children in Germany.

              Where exactly?
              Quote: DwellerNet
              All our leaders are bought with giblets by Western countries.

              And South Ossetia, Crimea, Syria, etc. it is as directed from there.
        2. +9
          15 October 2019 16: 29
          This is unnecessary, violence will never bring to good
          " ...You must Fedya, you must!" So it seems that Shurik re-educated Fedya, and Gorby will only fix the grave.
          1. +4
            15 October 2019 16: 43
            It is not Gorby who needs to be buried, but to begin to respect each other and himself, to be politically active citizens. For impudent only where it is allowed
            1. +12
              15 October 2019 16: 53
              As Khoma said in the famous cartoon "Everything is correct, everything fits together. But why do I want to"?
              The capitalist model of society provides only for the atomization of the people in society, it is much easier to "manage". Therefore, your slogan is largely disingenuous. Capitalism cultivates in society, and successfully exploits them, only animal instincts. Only they bring him profit. The rest is not important to the capitalists.
              1. -7
                15 October 2019 17: 22
                Quote: AKuzenka
                The capitalist model of society provides only for the atomization of the people in society, it is much easier to "manage".

                What to do if this system turned out to be more effective.

                Quote: AKuzenka
                Therefore, your slogan is largely hypocritical.

                Someone like that, who considers respect only an empty phrase, and who values ​​it.

                Quote: AKuzenka
                Capitalism cultivates in society, and successfully exploits them, only animal instincts.

                And why change what has been formed over thousands of years if not millions of years? From time immemorial, the very best received the best. Only those who are better able to adapt to the environment. It is necessary to proceed, when building a society, from what nature has given us otherwise otherwise a beautiful, fair, but unattainable dream will appear.

                Quote: AKuzenka
                Only they bring him profit. The rest to the capitalists does not matter.

                Everything strives for maximum efficiency and while capitalism wins here, and what will happen next - fortunately, it is not possible to know what will happen in the future.
                1. +20
                  15 October 2019 17: 33
                  Then your call for respect is doubly disingenuous. The USSR tried (and successfully) to educate a person, not an "animal". Unfortunately, the "animals" passed it. "Animal", by definition, does not know how to respect others, only understands the carrot and stick. If you do not understand the hypocrisy of your appeal under capitalism .... well, apparently you live in a different universe.
                  1. -13
                    15 October 2019 17: 58
                    Quote: AKuzenka
                    Then your call for respect is doubly hypocritical.

                    Well this is your opinion.

                    Quote: AKuzenka
                    The USSR tried (and successfully) to educate a person, not an "animal".

                    A person is not much different from an animal. Only the methods and form change, and the essence is the same - to create the most favorable conditions for an individual person and a group of people in order to survive and multiply.
                    In the USSR, they tried to create a person who would not ask questions about the appropriateness of certain decisions of the party, and even more so did not call into question the very management of the state by the communist party. But such a slave could not be created, which, subsequently, led to the collapse of the state.

                    Quote: AKuzenka
                    Unfortunately, the "animals" passed it.

                    He was handed over by the fact that citizens ceased to trust the state, it lost a vote of confidence. It could not perform the functions that citizens assigned to it.

                    Quote: AKuzenka
                    "Animal", by definition, does not know how to respect others, only understands the carrot and stick.

                    Everyone respected the force and always, something tells me that it will be so in the future.

                    Quote: AKuzenka
                    Since you don’t understand the hypocrisy of your appeal under capitalism .... well, apparently you live in a different universe.

                    This is your opinion, but I believe that you have remained in utopia because you do not understand the nature of man
                    1. +7
                      15 October 2019 18: 29
                      Quote: NordOst16
                      In the USSR, they tried to create a person who would not ask questions about the appropriateness of certain decisions of the party, and even more so did not call into question the very management of the state by the Communist Party

                      Here you first need to read literature about the USSR and the Communist Party .. I recommend starting with Capital .. Then awaken to discuss who they tried to create in the USSR ..
                      1. +8
                        15 October 2019 18: 33
                        Quote: NordOst16
                        Quote: AKuzenkaCapitalist model of society provides only atomization of the people in society, it is much easier to "manage".
                        What to do if this system turned out to be more effective.

                        Are you from what political camp in our country? It seems that you are not from Russia at all!
                        An atomically divided society can only be robbed successfully - everyone and everyone!
                        And the effectiveness of such a managerial robbery can only be said by someone who himself is a robber in power!
                      2. -8
                        15 October 2019 19: 18
                        I haven’t decided yet because there are no associations in the Russian Federation that are most fully consistent with my ideals.

                        Quote: Tatiana
                        An atomically divided society can only be robbed successfully - everyone and everyone!

                        Well, you can rob a more centralized society if it allows it.

                        Quote: Tatiana
                        And the effectiveness of such a managerial robbery can only be said by someone who himself is a robber in power!

                        Well, the Americans so far manage to cope with this, as the Germans do with the French (although the states there are more social than the States).
                        We lack a culture of government and respect between all participants in the process.
                      3. +6
                        15 October 2019 19: 22
                        Quote: NordOst16
                        We lack a culture of government and respect between all participants in the process.

                        The burglar may, in principle (!) Have respect for those whom he robs! I would respect - I did not rob!
                      4. -5
                        15 October 2019 19: 35
                        Nah, he can be a robber at least a hundred times, but only until he is allowed to do it.
                      5. +6
                        15 October 2019 19: 49
                        Quote: NordOst16
                        Nah, he can be a robber at least a hundred times, but only until he is allowed to do it.

                        Do not confuse the fear of a robber to get an answer with respect for the identity of the person he is robbing. These are fundamentally different things.
                      6. -5
                        16 October 2019 00: 55
                        On the one hand, yes, on the other hand, fear is respect for strength in theory.
                      7. +5
                        16 October 2019 01: 50
                        Quote: NordOst16
                        On the one hand, yes, on the other hand, fear is respect for strength in theory.

                        Can you respect a rapist-psychopath, a gangster and a murderer ?! This is something new!
                        You can only be mortally afraid of him. There is no respect. There is only fear and complete forcibly-showy-forced servile obedience.
                      8. +7
                        16 October 2019 02: 27
                        Quote: Tatiana
                        Can you respect a rapist-psychopath, a gangster and a murderer ?! This is something new!

                        So you can get to respect for Chikatilo. Or to different doctors Mengel. sad It seems that the person is either young or does not think that he is writing. What respect is there? You can only hate sonderkommandy or firekomandy. As well as various policemen, like those who burned Khatyn.
                      9. 0
                        16 October 2019 12: 07
                        Greetings Vladimir!
                        Quote: mordvin xnumx
                        ... So you can come to respect for Chikatilo. Or to different doctors Mengel. sad It seems that the person is either young or does not think that he is writing. What respect is there ......
                        And why not respect the Americans and their story? (Sarcasm) and you can be enthusiastic .... Here Zakharova says about this country in one of the last stories in the Political Cafe ....
                      10. +1
                        16 October 2019 12: 14
                        Quote: Tatiana
                        ........ You can respect a rapist-psychopath, a gangster and a murderer ?! This is something new! You can only be mortally afraid of him. There is no respect. There is only fear and complete forcibly-showy-forced servile obedience.
                        Yes, dear Tatyana! love .... How often are people able to see a good artist as a psychopath rapist .... or someone else good ...
                      11. +1
                        16 October 2019 12: 52
                        Quote: Reptiloid
                        Yes, dear Tatyana! .... How often are people able to see a good artist as a psychopath rapist .... or someone else good ...

                        Dmitriy! If you mean the "art" of Hitler, then Hitler, after participating in the battles in WWI, became a pervert masochist with women. He was very aroused when female fans sexually humiliated him during sexual intercourse with him just before intercourse. He forced them, his mistresses, to squat low over him, lying down, and write directly on his face when he enthusiastically examined the genitals! And try a woman for fear of not doing it! And then his interest in this lady faded away.
                        After such a high-born, high-ranking ladies - Hitler's mistresses - went crazy with frustration, ended up in mental hospitals and were treated for a long time there.
                      12. 0
                        16 October 2019 14: 05
                        Who knows, Tatyana, smile there are various explanations for why this happened, for health reasons. After being wounded in the PMV. By the way, the Marquis de Sade also somehow brought women to a psychiatric hospital. Yes, and Nero ....
                        And in the book about Salvador Dali, I read that being married to the Gala, he was, as it were, in love with Hitler at a distance and all sorts of artistic fantasies .... the Spanish artist saw Hitler as a woman.
                        Hitler was like a vegetarian and loved animals and did not drink, did not smoke (tobacco). Some laws of nature appeared. Surely someone writes this to him in ++++
                      13. -8
                        15 October 2019 18: 59
                        Why tried to create. Created, however. A herd that without a shepherd neither - nor.
                      14. +3
                        16 October 2019 03: 20
                        It was already passed. Ate those shepherds in the 17th year.
                      15. -5
                        15 October 2019 19: 12
                        They write and promise a lot, but in reality it often turns out to be quite the opposite. So low political activity of citizens led to the death of the entire state. Well, or the idea underlying it was not competitive
                      16. +1
                        15 October 2019 21: 27
                        I once criticized one Nazi lover, he suggested that, as an argument, I read "My Struggle."
                        "You do not understand anything in that system, get acquainted with its ideological and propaganda literature."
                      17. +3
                        15 October 2019 21: 29
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        I once criticized one Nazi lover, he suggested that, as an argument, I read "My Struggle."

                        Do you compare the fascist ideology with the communist? Even I would say put an equal sign? And if not, then before you criticize and draw conclusions, you need at least a little understanding of the material ..
                      18. -1
                        18 October 2019 10: 48
                        I have read. I did not find anything fundamentally new there. So, the emotional rationale for the massacres.
                      19. +5
                        16 October 2019 00: 39
                        Quote: Svarog
                        Quote: NordOst16
                        In the USSR, they tried to create a person who would not ask questions about the appropriateness of certain decisions of the party, and even more so did not call into question the very management of the state by the Communist Party

                        Here you first need to read literature about the USSR and the Communist Party .. I recommend starting with Capital .. Then awaken to discuss who they tried to create in the USSR ..

                        This generation does not know how to read, Dud tells them everything ....
                    2. The comment was deleted.
                      1. +5
                        15 October 2019 18: 36
                        Quote: Tatiana
                        Are you from what political camp in our country?

                        He is an ardent liberal, apparently a supporter of Navalny .. I think about 17 years old ..
                      2. -3
                        15 October 2019 19: 21
                        Apparently you are also no more than 15 and your idol is Kisilev.
                        And if truth be told, then not everything suits me in liberalism, I am a supporter of a more significant involvement of the state in the economy
                      3. +2
                        15 October 2019 19: 58
                        Quote: NordOst16
                        And if in truth,

                        That is, before that, everything was not true, you wrote laughing
                        Quote: NordOst16
                        I am a supporter of a greater involvement of the state in the economy

                        Not liberal it ..
                        Quote: NordOst16
                        not everything suits me in liberalism

                        You need to formulate thoughts more specifically .. Of all that you wrote, I really did not understand anything ... perhaps the only thing I agree with:
                        to be politically active citizens. For impudent only where it is allowed

                        And this begs the question, since you are calling for political activity ... who did you vote for in the elections? (presidential)
                      4. -2
                        16 October 2019 20: 31
                        Quote: Svarog
                        That is, before that, everything was not true, you wrote

                        I think it’s not necessary to find fault with words like that)))

                        Quote: Svarog
                        Not liberal it ..

                        So I never claimed that I completely agree with all the ideas of this movement, I think that the best option is always, somewhere between.


                        Quote: Svarog
                        And this begs the question, since you are calling for political activity ... who did you vote for in the elections? (presidential)

                        Zhirinrvsky though so-so choice, but I did not see worthy candidates there.
                  2. -5
                    15 October 2019 19: 20
                    Quote: AKuzenka
                    The USSR tried (and successfully) to educate a person, not an "animal".

                    If this were so, we would live under communism.
                    1. +2
                      15 October 2019 20: 07
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      Quote: AKuzenka
                      The USSR tried (and successfully) to educate a person, not an "animal".

                      If this were so, we would live under communism.

                      I think you will not argue that during the USSR people were much kinder, more moral and talked and thought more about the sublime .. Take the same cinema .. what films were .. The houses in the apartments were not surrounded by iron doors and were not locked, and if locked, then the key under the rug most likely was lying .. So it means a man was raised better. And the fact that we do not live under the USSR now, there are many other reasons .. and one of them, by the way, was that people were more naive .. But that naivety was just because of better living conditions .. then there was no person to person -wolves .. that’s why they were naive ... and that means much further from the animal than now ..
                      1. -1
                        15 October 2019 21: 13
                        Quote: Svarog
                        You, I think, will not argue that during the USSR people were much kinder, more moral and spoke and thought more about the sublime.

                        Here it is not necessary, but. I then lived and people were people. Different, as now.
                        Quote: Svarog
                        But that naivety was just because of better living conditions .. then man was not a man-wolf .. that’s why they were naive ... and therefore much further from the animal than now

                        Not all animal wolves, there are also sheep.
                      2. +3
                        16 October 2019 02: 49
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Here it is not necessary, but. I then lived and people were people. Different, as now.

                        As for the iron doors and the key under the rug, he is right. He himself left the boy so often, and friends did the same. They lived much friendlier, if someone was at home, then the doors did not often lock, they went to visit neighbors without demand, for example, play lotto. And now even acquaintances on the threshold are not always allowed.
                      3. 0
                        16 October 2019 19: 53
                        Quote: Mordvin 3
                        As for the iron doors and the key under the rug, he is right.

                        In small towns, yes, I myself remember, but in large towns, I'm sorry. And then there were enough criminals.
                      4. +1
                        18 October 2019 10: 53
                        Criminals in the USSR were enough only for you. I have not seen one. And after the end of the USSR, he ran into many directly. And now I come across phone scammers every day.
                      5. -1
                        18 October 2019 19: 20
                        Quote: meandr51
                        Criminals in the USSR were enough only for you. I have not seen one.

                        And in prisons and zones were innocent victims of the regime?
                      6. +1
                        18 October 2019 10: 50
                        Not sheep, but normal people. If they piss them off, any wolves will not be good ...
                      7. +2
                        16 October 2019 12: 30
                        Quote: Svarog
                        ...... during the USSR, people were significantly kinder, more moral? Take the same cinema .. what films were .. The houses in the apartments were not surrounded by iron doors and were not locked, and if they were locked, then the key under the rug was most likely lying .. So the man was raised better. And the fact that we do not live under the USSR now, there are many other reasons .. and one of them, by the way, was that people were more naive .. But that naivety was just because of better living conditions .. then there was no person to person -wolves .. on this and were naive ... hour ..
                        only recently (now at b / l) I watched "And I walk around Moscow". Amazing time! Wonderful people ... when I saw something like that in books, I somehow couldn't believe it ...
                        And there was no concept of suckers and "divorce", much of that was not ... And this is not the merit of the Khrushchev thaw, for sure! This country recovered after the Second World War, the residents saw everything good under socialism, dreamed, everything seemed to be within their power.
                  3. +2
                    15 October 2019 21: 45
                    You are mistaken for a person, all societies from the end of centuries have tried to educate: ancient Greece is not it? and Dostoevsky? Tolstoy and so on? including tsarist Russia, the revolution has lost everything, criminality has crawled out of all the cracks. So Stalin had to dissolve terror and the Gulag, and sharashka - because people for free (like slaves) did not want to plow for the state, bastards. And as Shalamov said _ "the spark of God from a person can be whipped with an ordinary stick"
                    So the USSR collapsed, and after all, how they tried to educate the builder of communism, and in fact only our grandfathers were for the USSR, since the Soviet government gave them everything - the opportunity to live with dignity, get an education, etc. So they went to defend the country in WWII because it was for what! And now there is a war, my son has no need to defend his country in general! For whom to fight - the same as in the song "they are feasting there, they are walking there, but we give them sons!" and what to say, such is life, try not to lose heart no matter what
                    1. +3
                      16 October 2019 03: 41
                      . So Stalin had to dissolve the terror and the Gulag, and sharashka - because people for free (like slaves) did not want to plow the state, scum.

                      Well, you're lying, of course.
                      In 1938 there were 1 mln .881 thousand in the camps. Of those convicted under a political article, 185 thousand, the rest are criminals.
                      The remaining 100 million citizens of the USSR worked precisely for wages.
                      So the USSR collapsed, but how they tried to educate the builder of communism

                      Lying again. Nobody in the 70s and 80s especially "tried", everything fell into empty formalism. Here in China they showed will and the results are impressive.
                      1. 0
                        16 October 2019 09: 53
                        With the help of the Gulag, they created 6% of Soviet GDP.
                      2. +1
                        18 October 2019 10: 55
                        It was in the 70-80s that the industrial and military power of the USSR reached a peak. You just had to clean the distribution and management system. In China, cleaned.
                    2. +1
                      16 October 2019 12: 35
                      karabass !!!!! Yes ---- Grandfathers and great-grandfathers somehow remembered or knew from relatives, as was the case with the king. It was not a textbook, but a close reality ..... gradually these facts began to be forgotten, became uninteresting, probably ...
                2. +4
                  15 October 2019 19: 01
                  Quote: NordOst16
                  Quote: AKuzenka
                  The capitalist model of society provides only for the atomization of the people in society, it is much easier to "manage".

                  What to do if this system turned out to be more effective.

                  More effective than what? Feudalism? Of course, more effective.

                  Everything is relative. You will not return to the film camera, which is super-efficient compared to the first ones - a copper plate, a silver coating, the development of mercury vapor, etc. So it is here. Capitalism, as a formation, has long become obsolete, and is now only capable of crises, wars, and human degradation.

                  Quote: NordOst16
                  Quote: AKuzenka
                  Capitalism cultivates in society, and successfully exploits them, only animal instincts.

                  And why change what has been formed over thousands of years if not millions of years? From time immemorial, the very best received the best. Only those who are better able to adapt to the environment. It is necessary to proceed, when building a society, from what nature has given us otherwise otherwise a beautiful, fair, but unattainable dream will appear.

                  1. Capitalism has not been formed for millennia. He is four hundred years old, if you count from the first bourgeois revolutions.
                  2. This is not a banter, is it? Do you seriously think that whoever has more money is the strongest, smartest, best, etc.? Seriously, you obviously do not know that behind the big money, in your interpretation, behind the "strongest", there is always blood, meanness, meanness and all the other bouquet of the most negative qualities. Well, a decent person, by definition, is not able to walk over their heads, intrigue, push their heads together, sit up, talk, juggle, etc. And for a villain, this is a native environment. As a result, the lowest human material becomes the "strongest". Under capitalism. Even in feudal society it was not so, not to the same extent.

                  Quote: NordOst16
                  Quote: AKuzenka
                  Only they bring him profit. The rest to the capitalists does not matter.

                  Everything strives for maximum efficiency and while capitalism wins here, and what will happen next - fortunately, it is not possible to know what will happen in the future.

                  A mountain of food for destruction and a crowd of hungry for extinction, in the same place, at the same time - is this the culmination of efficiency?
                  1. -5
                    15 October 2019 19: 33
                    Quote: McAr
                    More effective than what? Feudalism? Of course, more effective.

                    More effective than socialism and communism.

                    Quote: McAr
                    Capitalism, as a formation, has long become obsolete, and is now only capable of crises, wars, and human degradation.

                    But so far nothing has come to replace him that could undermine his position. Personally, I have not seen a single example.

                    Quote: McAr
                    Capitalism has not been formed for millennia. He is four hundred years old, if you count from the first bourgeois revolutions.

                    But the basics on which he is based - yes.

                    Quote: McAr
                    This is not a banter, no? Do you seriously think that whoever has the most money is the strongest, smartest, best, etc.?

                    In any case, this person is more successful than the rest.

                    Quote: McAr
                    Seriously, you obviously do not know that behind big money, in your interpretation of the "strongest", there is always blood, meanness, meanness and all the other bouquet of the most negative qualities

                    Well, what did you want? Unfortunately, we do not live in the Garden of Eden and unicorns do not graze in the meadows. In nature, it is extremely rare (if it happens at all) that everyone has enough resources, more often there is competition for them and more gets the fittest.

                    Quote: McAr
                    Well, a decent person, by definition, is not able to walk on their heads, intrigue, push their foreheads, podsushivat, headphone, juggle, etc.

                    A decent and in the face can not hit the offender? And what do you mean by the word decent?

                    Quote: McAr
                    And for the villain, this is a native environment. As a result, the lowest human material becomes the "strongest". Under capitalism. Even in feudal society it was not so, not to the same extent.

                    Dinosaurs were also big menacing animals, but they were replaced by "hairy rats" and nothing, they were just more adapted. Unfortunately, we do not live in an ideal world, and this has to be reckoned with not only for capitalism, but also for socialism.

                    Quote: McAr
                    A mountain of food for destruction and a crowd of hungry for extinction, in the same place, at the same time - is this the culmination of efficiency?

                    Unfortunately, there is no system that could break it. There are only plans and dreams, but there is a reality
                    1. +3
                      15 October 2019 20: 11
                      Quote: NordOst16
                      More effective than socialism and communism.

                      1. Have you seen communism somewhere to compare it with capitalism?
                      2. What systems, formations collided in World War II? That's right - capitalism and socialism. A capitalist united Europe of four hundred million people and a socialist Soviet Union of 190 million people, more than a third of which remained in occupation. In addition, capitalism at that time was not developing the first century, but socialism was a few years old (socialism was built by the mid-30s). And where did the Second World War end? That's right - in Berlin. So which of the formations was more effective?

                      Quote: NordOst16
                      In any case, this person is more successful than the rest.

                      This means that the very criteria of success are anti-human.

                      In cannibals, perhaps the most successful is the one who can eat others more. Take a sample?

                      Quote: NordOst16
                      Well, what did you want? Unfortunately, we do not live in the Garden of Eden and unicorns do not graze in the meadows. In nature, it is extremely rare (if it happens at all) that everyone has enough resources, more often there is competition for them and more gets the fittest.

                      What would I like? So that there is no exploitation of man by man, so that a handful of nonhumans do not rob the whole world, that people remain human, that life is not survival, but creativity, that there are no wars ... In short, all that will be in the next formation - communism.

                      Quote: NordOst16
                      A decent and in the face can not hit the offender? And what do you mean by the word decent?

                      I didn’t say that.

                      I said that a decent person would not impersonate, would not drop, lose himself.

                      Quote: NordOst16
                      Unfortunately, there is no system that could break it. There are only plans and dreams, but there is a reality

                      Fortunately, there is such a formation!

                      And if the founders had only a theory, then we now know this in practice.

                      To go into space you need three steps. Capitalism is the third stage of a space rocket. Can a rocket go into space without it? Never! This means that capitalism is a very important and necessary formation for humanity. But what will happen if the third step is not shot? The rocket will not fly anywhere and will collapse. If a person, human civilization is still civilized, then she must be thanked for capitalism, and without pity, having parted with him, go further along the path of progress. Well, if we are savages, then when a person does not become a nuclear disaster, the planet will breathe a sigh of relief. Savages, albeit successful, have no place on planet Earth.
                      1. -1
                        15 October 2019 21: 40
                        Quote: McAr
                        1. Have you seen communism somewhere to compare it with capitalism?

                        Well then, it’s even easier, I have one friend, too, who cares for anarchocapitalism and talks about its advantages. But there is one small but, there are his dreams and there is reality. And no matter how good this or that system is, but if it is absent in the world, then it is at best an unconfirmed hypothesis and the most effective system that prevails in the world at the moment. And capitalism, no matter how bad it is, exists and is in good health, and until a system has formed that could compete with it. I just think that there should be innovations, but gradually so that in case of an unsuccessful experiment, you could play back.

                        Quote: McAr
                        The Soviet Union has about 190 million people, moreover, more than a third of whom remained in the occupation. In addition, capitalism at that time was not developing the first century, but socialism was a few years old (socialism was built by the mid-30s). And where did the Second World War end? That's right - in Berlin. So which of the formations was more effective?

                        Which system ultimately survived? Stability is the most important characteristic of the system and the Councils did not pass the reliability test.

                        Quote: McAr
                        What would I like? So that there is no exploitation of man by man, so that a handful of nonhumans do not rob the whole world, that people remain human, that life is not survival, but creativity, that there are no wars ... In short, all that will be in the next formation - communism.

                        This does not sound bad, but the likelihood of building such a society, at the moment, in my opinion, is no higher than the construction of the encapsulation. In this case, I would be glad to any scheme that would allow a more efficient allocation of resources and it would not matter if it was communism or ankap. But for now, I do not see a serious competitor to capitalism.

                        Quote: McAr
                        Fortunately, there is such a formation!

                        And if the founders had only a theory, then we now know this in practice.

                        Practice, if you mean the USSR, ended in failure. So it would be worth looking for new options for the path. Communism, ankap or a mixture of the first and second.
                      2. +2
                        15 October 2019 23: 06
                        Quote: NordOst16
                        But there is one small but, there are his dreams and there is reality. And no matter how good this or that system is, but if it is absent in the world, then it is at best an unconfirmed hypothesis and the most effective system that prevails in the world at the moment.

                        You did not think that. And if you thought, you would realize how much this sounds, to put it mildly, ridiculous.

                        Following this logic, mankind should have stood still in feudalism or even in slavery. For that simple reason, both in that and in another formation there were many people who reasoned as well. Capitalism has already proved its old age in two world wars and dozens smaller. And if it were not for the deterrent factor of nuclear weapons, then we would have long gone through (not all) the third, and maybe the fourth, world war.

                        Quote: NordOst16
                        capitalism, no matter how bad it is, exists and lives on and until a system has formed that could compete with it

                        I just showed that this is not so. Or didn’t you go to WWII at school?

                        Quote: NordOst16
                        I just think that there should be innovations, but gradually so that in case of an unsuccessful experiment, you could play back.

                        I, too, for gradual. Capitalism has replaced feudalism for hundreds of years. And there are still places on the planet with a feudal formation. All this was accompanied by many bourgeois revolutions. Hundreds of years is pretty gradual. Communism also does not immediately triumph. You yourself know, like any other person, that it is more difficult to be good than bad. But there is no way out - either humanity will come to its senses and come to communism (through socialism, which will also last, perhaps more than one hundred years), or it will burn out in a nuclear disaster.

                        Quote: NordOst16
                        Which system ultimately survived? Stability is the most important characteristic of the system and the Councils did not pass the reliability test.

                        The fact that the reaction won is another question.

                        Capitalism, too, was not immediately accepted by society. What did the Decembrists end up with? How did the Great French Revolution end?

                        In our country, more or less normal socialism was a little bit small: from about 1935 to 1956. Well, maybe +/- a couple of years. So even then, the worst war in the history of mankind occurred in this period, in which our country suffered the most. And despite the fact that the period was so short, such a breakthrough was made, such a backlog that they have been torn for thirty years, and have not yet been destroyed.

                        Quote: NordOst16
                        This does not sound bad, but the likelihood of building such a society, at the moment, in my opinion, is no higher than the construction of the encapsulation.

                        What does "at the moment" have to do with it? Everyone wants everything at once. Well, why sit then - kiss the frogs forward on the swamp. And not all and not all at once - is it bad or what?

                        Quote: NordOst16
                        Practice, if you mean the USSR, ended in failure. So it would be worth looking for new options for the path.

                        Not a failure, but a counter-revolution.

                        Do you know that the first time with a woman, not everyone succeeds? And something I don't know of those who would tie a knot. On the contrary, they try again and again until they succeed. But those who start "looking for new options" risk joining the flock under the tail of the indulging ones.

                        The practice of launching missiles ended in failure. So ... (and further on in your text). Here is what you just said. Or do not know how many failed attempts before humanity went into space?
                      3. -1
                        15 October 2019 23: 36
                        Quote: McAr
                        Following this logic, mankind should have stood still in feudalism or even in slavery. For that simple reason, both in that and in another formation there were many people who reasoned as well. Capitalism has already proved its old age in two world wars and dozens smaller. And if it were not for the deterrent factor of nuclear weapons, then we would have long gone through (not all) the third, and maybe the fourth, world war.

                        I am not saying this, but I am saying that at the given time only the system that is most adapted to the given conditions will exist and so far this system is capitalism. Conditions will change - the system will change. So far we have the most effective system at the moment - capitalism and several promising ones - communism and anarchocapitalism, etc., which I will not know in the future. And yes, if in the Bronze Age a ruler came who would begin to introduce ideas peculiar to capitalism, then he and his system would not last long, because at that time another system was more effective. I do not deny that everything is changing, but personally I would not put it on communism.

                        Quote: McAr
                        You yourself know, like any other person, that it is more difficult to be good than bad.

                        I totally agree.

                        Quote: McAr
                        But there is no way out - either humanity will come to its senses and come to communism (through socialism, which will also last, perhaps more than one hundred years), or it will burn out in a nuclear disaster.

                        Again, communism is only one of many promising systems. But, again, crashes will show.

                        Quote: McAr
                        In our country, more or less normal socialism was a little bit small: from about 1935 to 1956. Well, maybe +/- a couple of years. So even then, the worst war in the history of mankind occurred in this period, in which our country suffered the most. And despite the fact that the period was so short, such a breakthrough was made, such a backlog that they have been torn for thirty years, and have not yet been destroyed.

                        The only questions are: at what cost was this leap achieved (and this is not the main issue) and do not think that the transformation of communism in the following years was an attempt to adapt it to realities because in its pure form it could not work for the future? For one jerk does not solve anything at the marathon.

                        Quote: McAr
                        What does "at the moment" have to do with it? Everyone wants everything at once. Well, why sit then - kiss the frogs forward on the swamp. And not all and not all at once - is it bad or what?

                        Despite the fact that you must first build a system that will work effectively in today's conditions and fulfill the tasks assigned to it (capitalism) and think about the future. We need a system that works efficiently here and now, so that we have the means to move to the next stage of development, and for this we need to lick and modify examples from the best.

                        Quote: McAr
                        Not a failure, but a counter-revolution.

                        Bad luck.

                        Quote: McAr
                        The practice of launching missiles ended in failure. So ... (and further on in your text). Here is what you just said. Or do not know how many failed attempts before humanity went into space?

                        And how many reloading schemes, materials, types of fuel, etc.? The question here is, what do you set as a goal? If communism becomes an end in itself, then this is one thing, and if communism is only a way to reach the stars, then this is completely different because in trying to find the most optimal scheme, the idea of ​​communism can be discarded and another idea, for example, ankap, will take the place of this engine of progress (well, I already all the brains with him are just passing through).
                        Once again, I’m not saying that communism is not possible, but so far it seems to me that there are nicer models that should replace capitalism (and no, this is not an encapsulation).
                      4. +1
                        16 October 2019 01: 29
                        Quote: NordOst16
                        at the given moment only the system most adapted to the given conditions will exist and while capitalism is this system

                        What makes you think that capitalism is the most adapted to these conditions? And what are these conditions? And what does fit mean?

                        Quote: NordOst16
                        Conditions will change - the system will change.

                        The fact of the matter is that they have already changed.

                        In the production of all food, not even in agriculture, but more broadly - food, in developed countries, percentages of the total population are occupied on one hand. This state of affairs was unthinkable a century ago. Similarly, with the production of anything else. All developed countries could at least from Monday go over to the socialist formation. In any case, from the technical side, all the conditions for this are there.

                        If under a condition you mean human greed, then such conditions will never occur. Because first the basis, then the superstructure. First pickle, then pickled cucumber. Social being determines social consciousness. Not the other way around. At first, maybe through the resistance of a minority, conditions are created and only then, with generations, a new person is gradually brought up. Whose goodness is becoming easier and easier. Because it becomes fashionable if you switch to a youth format of understanding.

                        Quote: NordOst16
                        I do not deny that everything is changing, but personally I would not put it on communism.

                        This is because you obviously do not know the theory, even in general terms.



                        Quote: NordOst16
                        The only questions are: at what cost was this leap achieved (and this is not the main issue) and do not think that the transformation of communism in the following years was an attempt to adapt it to realities because in its pure form it could not work for the future? For one jerk does not solve anything at the marathon.

                        In a jerk, it looked against the background of everything else. But this was not a jerk in the marathon race. It was normal work, it happened that it was 7 hours a day (and the plans were to reduce the working day to 5 hours). With a twinkle, with excitement, of course. And why not be enthusiastic if annual prices are reduced by 15-20 %%, if life is getting better from year to year before our eyes?

                        Socialism could work for the future, if not for the greed and anger of the people. I met people who still sizzle with hatred for popular power and the most progressive system. Do you know why? Someone nationalized the mill, someone herd of horses. Soon, a century has passed, and still come out of bile. So what - wasn’t it like that in the 50s? In appearance the builder of communism, and in a pocket a fig and a stone in his bosom.

                        Quote: NordOst16
                        Despite the fact that you must first build a system that will work effectively in today's conditions and fulfill the tasks assigned to it

                        There is already such a system. Capitalism is called. He did everything - organized production, gathered people, trained them, disciplined. All. There remains a parasitic superstructure to demolish and wu a la - socialism.

                        Quote: NordOst16
                        And how many reloading schemes, materials, types of fuel, etc.? The question here is, what do you set as a goal? If communism becomes an end in itself, then this is one thing, and if communism is only a way to reach the stars, then this is completely different

                        Well, that's right - who sets the socio-economic formation as an end in itself. Socialism and further communism is only a condition for unlocking human potential. Now 90 +% do not create, but survive. Those. they spend their lives on the elementary - food, clothing, roof, transportation ... On garbage, in short, on decay.

                        Quote: NordOst16
                        I’m not saying that communism is not possible, but so far it seems to me that there are more attractive models that should replace capitalism

                        Hmm, and which models?

                        Marxism is a science. Like chemistry, physics, geology, geometry ... Well, try to build something ignoring these sciences.
                      5. -3
                        16 October 2019 09: 55
                        Russia will never return to socialism as well as to communism.
                      6. 0
                        16 October 2019 11: 47
                        Quote: Vadim237
                        Russia will never return to socialism as well as to communism.

                        So, it will slide to fascism. This is how capitalism works.

                  2. +1
                    16 October 2019 12: 47
                    McAr !!! Good day, Alexander! hi Thirty years of efficiency ?! You can be stunned by various effects. Somehow, they are not good. All the USSR does not catch up in any way.
                    1. +2
                      16 October 2019 13: 27
                      Quote: Reptiloid
                      McAr !!! Good day, Alexander! hi Thirty years of efficiency ?! You can be stunned by various effects. Somehow, they are not good. All the USSR does not catch up in any way.

                      Hi Dmitry! hi
                      And they won’t catch up. And not because the bourgeoisie has no such goal even on napkins, but because capitalism a priori loses to socialism in all respects. I remind you, because suddenly someone is not in the know, from about 1956-61, we did not have quite socialism, and from year to year more and more slipped into today. So you need to compare capitalism with socialism in the 50s. Comparisons of other eras give distortions.
                      1. +1
                        16 October 2019 14: 15
                        Well yes! Quick recovery, construction after the Second World War! Soviet economic miracle. Despite the fact that they helped other countries, they themselves suffered some losses !!!
                        Quote: McAr
                        Quote: Reptiloid
                        McAr !!! Good day, Alexander! hi Thirty years of efficiency ?! You can be stunned by various effects. Somehow, they are not good. All the USSR does not catch up in any way.

                        Hi Dmitry! hi
                        And they won’t catch up. And not because the bourgeoisie has no such goal even on napkins, but because capitalism a priori loses to socialism in all respects. I remind you, because suddenly someone is not in the know, from about 1956-61, we did not have quite socialism, and from year to year more and more slipped into today. So you need to compare capitalism with socialism in the 50s. Comparisons of other eras give distortions.
            2. -1
              15 October 2019 17: 08
              Quote: NordOst16
              and begin to respect each other and themselves, to be politically active citizens.

              Why should you respect Bush-Obama-Trump, the owners of dozens of tortures around the world? Respect practitioner executioner in the U.S. administration Gin Haspel?
              Then respect Himmler and Mengele, and Stalin and Yezhov. For the concentration camps and the Gulag.
              1. -6
                15 October 2019 17: 26
                Hey buddy pie, you have chosen the wrong door, the circle of the leather craft two blocks below.
            3. +8
              15 October 2019 17: 29
              First of all, Gorboty needs to be deprived of his pension, which he does not deserve, since he personally "from above" destroyed the state - the USSR - for which he was responsible with his own head and which no longer exists in nature. And in which he, moreover, still does not live.
              In this case, he does not have the right to feed from the state that he has killed, to gnaw the bones on his corpse.

              And the monthly pension from Gorbachev in the Russian Federation is 750 thousand rubles. (or $ 11,5 thousand) + a huge number of benefits that he - I repeat - did not deserve in connection with the destruction by the USSR itself, which was under his personal leadership.

              In fact, these pension payments to Gorbachev are an unreasonable theft of the PF of Russia by him and the continuation of harming Gorbachev for our country with mocking mockery of the citizens of the Russian Federation.
              And our liberal government of the Russian Federation will also bury it with military honor at state expense, i.e. for people's taxpayer money!

              Stalin would just put Gorbachev for it against the wall! And his wife, Raisa, would have been sent anywhere to Solovki, where she, too, would have been the place in the USSR.

              What is Gorbachev's pension? Published: May 5 2019
              1. -9
                15 October 2019 17: 38
                Well then, let’s say then that the whole government and citizens helped Gorbachev in this. For a strong and successful state cannot be destroyed in such a short time. And certainly it will not work out from the inside if most of the citizens are pretty much the work of the state.
                The destruction began long before Gorbachev, and, it seems to me, the practice of not allowing citizens to rule the state and suppressing any criticism of the system was very destructive.
                And by the time of the collapse of the country, we had authorities that could not and people who did not want (because if he wanted, he would raise new governments to the forks). By that time, no one believed in a brighter future and wanted change and they got them
                1. +8
                  15 October 2019 17: 57
                  Quote: NordOst16
                  Well, let’s say then that the whole government and citizens helped Gorbachev in this.
                  Study the "materiel", and that is absurd. Moreover, blame ALL citizens of the country!
                  On the contrary. Most of the Soviet people were against the collapse of the USSR, if you did not know this, and Gorbachev with his "new thinking" and "perestroika" was called by the people a traitor and agent of the West.
                  Quote: NordOst16
                  The destruction began long before Gorbachev, and, it seems to me, the practice of not allowing citizens to rule the state and suppressing any criticism of the system was very destructive.

                  Do you mean the liberal intelligentsia in the USSR - such as the third-generation French Jewess Novodvoskuyu and her shameless liberal patrons - you mean?

                  Here she is for foreign journalists not at the conference showing her Masonic fingers, hinting that she is one of them!
                  1. -7
                    15 October 2019 18: 10
                    Quote: Tatiana
                    Study the "materiel", and then babble like in a kindergarten. Moreover, lay the blame on all citizens of the country! Most of the Soviet people were against the collapse of the USSR, and Gorbachev with his "new thinking" and "perestroika" was called by the people a traitor and agent of the West.

                    And what have you done so that the Soviets do not fall apart? If you sit and do nothing, then they will do it for you even without you.

                    Quote: Tatiana
                    Do you mean the liberal intelligentsia in the USSR - such as the third-generation French Jewess Novodvoskuyu and her shameless liberal patrons - you mean?

                    No, I'm talking about the execution in Novocherkassk
                    1. +3
                      15 October 2019 18: 15
                      Quote: NordOst16
                      And what have you done so that the Soviets do not fall apart?

                      I struggled. But you, it seems, just watched and with everything that was happening at that time, you had no idea what the future would be.
                      1. -6
                        15 October 2019 19: 01
                        And where were all the rest of the citizens when the power collapsed? The union was broken up under the tacit consent of citizens.
                      2. +4
                        15 October 2019 19: 12
                        Quote: AU Ivanov.
                        And where were all the rest of the citizens when the power collapsed? The union was broken up under the tacit consent of citizens.

                        You'd better ask why the country's Armed Forces betrayed their people and sat out in the barracks, waiting uselessly for an order "from above" to defend their country? And didn't get it!
                        But not unarmed people should have opposed the guarded Gorbachev!
                      3. +1
                        15 October 2019 20: 01
                        Quote: AS Ivanov.
                        And where were all the rest of the citizens when the power collapsed?

                        On beets, on haymaking, on cotton, onions ... But not in the workplace. As a result, the Soviet Union rolled to the feudal-caste state. Where the party nomenclature allocated 200 grams of sugar per month to workers, while tens of thousands of tons of unloaded sugar stood on the tracks. Warehouses were crammed to the ceiling. I know, since my classmate was a warehouse manager, and my father was a shunting locomotive engineer.
                        Therefore, there was no one who wanted to defend this Gorbachev insanity.
                      4. 0
                        15 October 2019 21: 14
                        Quote: AS Ivanov.
                        And where were all the rest of the citizens when the power collapsed? The union was broken up under the tacit consent of citizens.

                        No, Andrey, here I strongly disagree with you. feel
                      5. -7
                        15 October 2019 19: 04
                        It’s not a lot of people who turn out to fight or weren’t greedy enough to go for a dream
                      6. +3
                        15 October 2019 19: 52
                        Quote: NordOst16
                        It’s not a lot of people who turn out to fight or weren’t greedy enough to go for a dream

                        Remember the propaganda of those times. Their beer is better, tobacco is better, technology is better, McDonald's is generally better than our canteens. Journalists and politicians did not leave the US Embassy. The US Ambassador to the USSR, Matlock, was greatly surprised to see Marshal Akhromeev at Sakharov's funeral. He did not expect the Strict Dwarf to appear there. US propaganda worked to its fullest. All these films like "My Chauffeur" were played. And ours did not lag behind. American grandfather, American daughter, and all that. As one senior American put it, "We spent trillions of dollars to break up the USSR." In the Moscow stores in the 89th year, everything abruptly disappeared, and revolutions of this kind take place in the capitals. I remember the scandal flared up when several tons of gingerbread were found at the dump. And the switchman was identified. Loader. Like, they say he confused baking soda with technical. belay But these gingerbreads locally lively snapped up and devoured. EBN across the country immediately allegedly closed several tobacco factories for repairs. They did everything so that discontent grew among the people. They even threw medals from colormet into landfills. By trucks. The people were furious because of the empty shelves of shops. And nobody could really compare socialism with capitalism in its own way. If the equipment was a little worse in the USSR than in the west, now they don’t release anything at all.
                      7. -2
                        15 October 2019 21: 44
                        What is the difference to talk about it if the government and the people allowed the collapse. The government of the USSR was not able to convince its people that they live better than in the West and the people did not believe the Soviet government.
                      8. +3
                        15 October 2019 22: 27
                        Quote: NordOst16
                        The government of the USSR was not able to convince its people that they live better than in the West and the people did not believe the Soviet government.

                        But in vain. A true communist first of all thinks about society, and then only about himself. One of them worked for us, refused an improved two-bedroom apartment, although he lived in an ordinary apartment with his wife, mother and son. Not everyone is capable of such an act. So he was a real communist, for which I respected him. He was an ordinary worker and did not aspire to the top. In contrast to those such as labeled and other ambitious comrades like Khrushchev, who replaced Malenkov, immediately sat down on two chairs, which were only called Communists, but actually crawled to power, like worms to a puddle. By the way, initially the secretary general wanted to deliver not Gorbi, but Romanov. Everyone decided without him, and then tagged him then simply sent him to retire. Although Romanov was only 62 years old, and he lived until 2008. It was a strong business executive, secretary of the Leningrad regional committee, shipbuilder. During his stay in Leningrad, only 19 metro stations were built. For 13 years. NPP, icebreaker Arctic ...
                      9. -1
                        15 October 2019 22: 46
                        Well, as it turned out, there were not many such ideological people. Something was worth changing in the USSR earlier, as in China, but what happened, it was that we would not know, but it was worth building a bright future.
                      10. -1
                        16 October 2019 03: 12
                        Quote: Mordvin 3
                        One of them worked for us, refused an improved two-bedroom apartment, although he lived in an ordinary apartment with his wife, mother and son.

                        And you do not know what the rest of the family said to this?
                      11. +2
                        16 October 2019 07: 23
                        Quote: Ruslan67
                        And you do not know what the rest of the family said to this?

                        Do not know. Moreover, no one took away the old kopeck piece, it remained with the mother. His act was regarded in different ways, someone twisted a finger at his temple, someone understood the other way around ... But he did not lose respect from this, I was at his house, they drank slowly. His mother is disabled, of course you could leave her son, but ... He decided the way he decided ... But the apartments there were excellent, the apartments were about 55 squares (offhand, I definitely didn’t recognize), my dad was there four received on 83,7 (that's for sure) a square, on a family of 4's. There were no odnushki at all. Even a lonely divorced locksmith got a kopeck piece. Today's bourgeoisie for their workers FIG what for free to build. They will succeed sooner. We had an excellent enterprise, they destroyed it already in the 10's, because we destroyed the head office, and our equipment was sharpened purely for it. They probably built the whole block on their own, they had their own construction team, and they finished it, and they bought modern gas plumbing stoves. So I do not feel any respect for the current government, we were paid very well there and the social network was not pouting.
                    2. +1
                      15 October 2019 19: 49
                      Quote: NordOst16
                      No, I'm talking about the execution in Novocherkassk

                      Novodvorskaya spoke directly about the dream of shooting millions of commies. In general, a genetic executioner who did not manage to work in the NKVD, the GESTAPO, or, at worst, in the Pinochet stadium.
                  2. +4
                    15 October 2019 18: 28
                    Quote: Tatiana
                    Study the "materiel", and that is absurd. Moreover, blame ALL citizens of the country!

                    And I support you again. hi
                  3. +1
                    15 October 2019 18: 36
                    Tatyana, and comrade NordOst is right: "the destruction began long before Gorbachev," namely, from 1956, when it turned out that Stalin was a bad guy, and the whole party was "white and fluffy." For that matter, M.S. is only a continuation of the course.
                    1. +6
                      15 October 2019 18: 56
                      Quote: vladcub
                      Tatyana, and comrade NordOst is right: "the destruction began long before Gorbachev," namely, from 1956, when it turned out that Stalin was a bad guy, and the whole party was "white and fluffy." For that matter, M.S. is only a continuation of the course.
                      Yes, I know all this! Only now all the people do not need to blame it!
                      Most Soviet people honestly worked in their jobs and built their family future and the well-being of our entire country!

                      And then there are such as NordOst - and scatter their "fermentation", as if from a fan, on everyone. And I strongly disagree with such a sweeping accusation of all citizens of the country! And I am against such filthy accusations from the NordOst of the entire Soviet people!
                      "Kamrd" NordOst has a metaphysical methodological stupor in the brain! Dialectically, he does not understand this issue. Hence, he has indiscriminately superficial propaganda political statements harmful to society.

                      Andrey Fursov - Who Bribed Gorbachev. Published: February 12 2012 of the year.
                2. +4
                  15 October 2019 18: 27
                  Quote: NordOst16
                  that the whole government helped Gorbachev in this граждане.

                  Let’s not touch citizens, for the most part, citizens were against the collapse of the USSR.
                  1. -7
                    15 October 2019 19: 09
                    Maybe they were against it, but because of the low political responsibility, they admitted that at the helm of the country were people who led to its collapse. And inaction often leads to tragic consequences.
                    1. +2
                      15 October 2019 21: 04
                      Quote: NordOst16
                      Maybe they were against it, but because of the low political responsibility, they admitted that at the helm of the country were people who led to its collapse. And inaction often leads to tragic consequences.

                      How old are you?
                  2. -2
                    15 October 2019 21: 31
                    but let's touch what they did to prevent the collapse of the country? never mind.
              2. +4
                15 October 2019 18: 24
                Quote: Tatiana
                First of all, Gorboty needs to be deprived of his pension, which he does not deserve, since he personally "from above" destroyed the state - the USSR - for which he was responsible with his own head and which no longer exists in nature. And in which he, moreover, still does not live.
                In this case, he does not have the right to feed from the state that he has killed, to gnaw the bones on his corpse.

                I fully support.
            4. +1
              16 October 2019 00: 46
              Quote: NordOst16
              It is not Gorby who needs to be buried, but to begin to respect each other and himself, to be politically active citizens. For impudent only where it is allowed

              But the truth of life is that after Gorby's death, the current authorities in Russia will begin a competition between the desire to build another Yeltsin Center, or to bang already "in an adult way" and build the "Gorbachev Center" ...
        3. 0
          18 October 2019 10: 46
          Well, yes, it’s better to give up right away and enjoy the freedom of robbery and leisurely destruction of ourselves. Like in the 90s ...
    2. +3
      15 October 2019 15: 27
      there will be something, not the fact that the war is between the USA and Russia .. But we all see this stream of military preparations. Orders, developments, purchases. Hundreds, thousands of units. The UN no longer has its former strength. Collapse international treaties. Contracts between the government and the people. Chaos swallows the whole world. You can be complacent as much as you like, but the conflict is coming. Ideology? Yes, there is no ideology, there is the power of the golden calf. In addition, a reason is needed to establish a new world order. The old order is crumbling before our eyes. It is good if the transformation goes without blood or a little blood.
    3. +5
      15 October 2019 15: 34
      I agree with you! but not in everything! they kick us like blind kittens! (DIP property) and, not only! by ear? Ah, we only have a CARE! ((Shame! Shame!
      1. -13
        15 October 2019 15: 51
        Let's help the United States-grass inside the country shouting about shame on the Russian Internet.
        1. +3
          15 October 2019 16: 03
          Quote: Mestny
          Let's help the United States-grass inside the country shouting about shame on the Russian Internet.

          And to help, poison the country from the inside? For us (the Russian Federation), the government itself is doing just fine (source Lenta.ru):
          In the first half of 2019 in Russia natural population decline acceleratedfollows from a report published on the website of Rosstat.
          In the period from January to June of this year, the number of deaths in the country exceeded the number of births by 198,8 thousand people, which is 34,7 thousand more than in the first half of 2018.

          And this, I want to note how much more was covered by the influx of migrants in the Russian Federation who became citizens. So, in the matter of etching the country's population, under the name of the Russian Federation, there is no help. nor any US is required.

          PS "Our" authorities themselves are doing an excellent job. wassat
          1. -3
            15 October 2019 19: 03
            What's next? ALL the white Christian population of the Earth is dying out and we are no exception.
            1. -2
              15 October 2019 20: 05
              Quote: AU Ivanov.
              What's next? ALL the white Christian population of the Earth is dying out and we are no exception.

              Can't guarantee for everyone. But the fact that "our" authorities contribute to this a lot is a fact. Only they don't poison with dust, but there is another way, and the name seems to be neutral - it's called optimization. A very versatile tool, I can tell you. There is optimization in medicine, in social networks. providing, well, etc. You probably know the result of such actions.
              If you think that this does not affect in any way (confidence in your future, ability to provide for yourself, your family), then of course, your right. hi
              1. -4
                15 October 2019 20: 41
                Then the question is: why is the indigenous population of Western Europe declining. There, the social sphere is many times greater than the Russian one, as is medicine. And no optimizations. And why do Africans breed like rabbits without medicine and social guarantees?
                1. +1
                  15 October 2019 21: 04
                  Quote: AS Ivanov.
                  And why do Africans breed like rabbits without medicine and social guarantees?

                  Do they need a lot? All year round you can walk in shorts, and under the palm tree you can catch bananas. And Europeans only do that they are building a career, as I was recently taught by one here. And an African will build a bamboo hut, and there is no need to pay for a communal apartment. Africans and die like flies.
                  1. -2
                    15 October 2019 21: 05
                    So our youth is building a career. And in the list of their interests, children are not in the first place.
                    1. +3
                      15 October 2019 21: 18
                      Quote: AS Ivanov.
                      So our youth is building a career.

                      What am I talking about? In addition, Africans are idlers, they cost minimal. I read a couple of businessmen, Komsomolskaya Pravda printed out who works there. They must be constantly adjusted. And they steal at work on black. Where there is our Soviet with "drag every nail from work." Businessmen buy the cheapest phones there, because Africans do not consider it shameful to steal them. They don't like white people there.
                    2. -1
                      15 October 2019 22: 59
                      Quote: AU Ivanov.
                      So our youth is building a career. And in the list of their interests, children are not in the first place.

                      Not certainly in that way. Poverty is frightening, frightening is not the ability to provide an acceptable standard of living in Russian society (source inosmi.ru):
                      The fall in income of Russians in 2015 - 2017, according to Rosstat, led to an increase in poverty from 11,2% in 2014 to 13,8% in 2017. Meanwhile, the reality of poverty is much worse.
                      Traditionally families with children, including with one child, make the largest contribution to poverty. For example, in 2007-2015, the poverty level did not change significantly, but the share of such families in the composition of the poor increased over this period from 49,8% to 62,6%. In 2015, according to the HSE, poverty growth was mainly provided by families with children (on 81,7%).
                      Judging from HSE polls, May-September 2017 increased poverty even among families with one child.

                      Ask yourself a simple question: are you ready to have more children if you know in advance that you cannot feed and dress them? And here, it’s definitely not Africa, or they will freeze in the winter or they will be taken to a shelter. hi
            2. 0
              16 October 2019 11: 03
              Ah, WE ARE NOT ALL! we are RUSSIA! we are INDIVIDUAL!
              1. 0
                16 October 2019 11: 21
                And what are we so individual? Do we have an extra chromosome?
                1. 0
                  16 October 2019 11: 25
                  again! we are RUSSIA! are there still such Russians? it is NATIONALITY! means WE are individual! if you want YES, extra chromosome!
                  1. 0
                    16 October 2019 11: 28
                    For your information: an extra chromosome is a sign of Down syndrome. And someone A. Hitler also spoke of the individuality and exclusivity of one of the nations. Very badly finished.
                    1. 0
                      16 October 2019 11: 30
                      me to one place, shaw, there, Hitler. and about downism! I am Russian!
          2. +1
            16 October 2019 09: 58
            "In the period from January to June of this year, the number of deaths in the country exceeded the number of births by 198,8 thousand people, which is 34,7 thousand more than in the first half of 2018." What are the "critical" indicators for Russia with a population of 148 million, mother dear - in the 90s, more than 150000 people died every month.
            1. -3
              16 October 2019 10: 12
              Quote: Vadim237
              "In the period from January to June of this year, the number of deaths in the country exceeded the number of births by 198,8 thousand people, which is 34,7 thousand more than in the first half of 2018." What are the "critical" indicators for Russia with a population of 148 million, mother dear - in the 90s, more than 150000 people died every month.

              Well then, bravo! Go to the 90s! Thanks to Putin for bringing him back to where they started. wassat
        2. -2
          16 October 2019 10: 50
          hear! me, to one place, all the countries of the WORLD! I live in Russia! and, I want, sho would NOT be ONE COUNTRY of this WORLD! they didn’t allow us to wipe our “feet” WE ALLOWED THIS! and, I say, SHAME SHAME! Does it suit you! I am NOT!
    4. -3
      15 October 2019 15: 47
      Russians need respect for each other and an active social position, and then no Stalin will be needed.
      1. +1
        15 October 2019 17: 13
        We respect each other. And those who want to rip off our skin on handbags and lampshades, and those who praise the country of the victorious genocide - no, we will not respect. They only hold a strong fist in a civilian framework.
    5. The comment was deleted.
    6. 0
      15 October 2019 16: 09
      Such as Stalin are born once every 300 liters, and therefore we will be realistic Stalin for a long time will not be
      1. +2
        15 October 2019 16: 47
        Quote: vladcub
        Such as Stalin are born once every 300 liters, and therefore we will be realistic Stalin for a long time will not be

        I am forced to disagree with you. Stalin is the product of a great, turbulent era. If there hadn't been such a time, he would have remained a seminarian Dzhugashvili. And the great changes brought forward strong, vibrant, fanatical people in the front ranks. From the ranks of which later came those who, in addition, had outstanding organizational skills. We observed similar processes at the beginning of the Russian spring. Who before, from the general public, knew for example Strelkova or Brain? People are just as strong, vibrant, fanatical. And the fact that the current system (both in the Russian Federation and Ukraine) tried to remove such people in every possible way (even in the literal sense), this means that these systems do not need such. And we need very flexible, morally, cogs. Such as, for example, Pushilin. But this does not mean that among the masses, such as Stalin, they are no more. I am sure there are. Conditions will arise and they will manifest themselves. And because I am sure that the term of the current government of the Russian Federation has not been released for a long time, then we will see such people in the near future. Of course, at first it will be a roll of foam, one of the most passionate, but not always with a + sign. But among them, and I am sure of this, there are surely worthy ones. Otherwise, it should be recognized that the peoples living in Russia are no longer capable of anything, have degenerated and they will soon be forgotten. But I am among those who believe in the people. hi

        PS But the people and the existing system of power, the phenomena, although interconnected, are not necessarily a continuation of each other. Sometimes, they are even antagonists, well, for example, collaboration in the occupation administration. It seems that people from among compatriots are there, but you can’t name them yours. hi
        1. +1
          15 October 2019 18: 24
          Leshy, in many respects I agree with you, but remember this truth: "one in the field is not a warrior"? So you need a team of like-minded people
          1. -1
            15 October 2019 19: 53
            Quote: vladcub
            Leshy, in many respects I agree with you, but remember this truth: "one in the field is not a warrior"? So you need a team of like-minded people

            Definitely so. I agree. hi
          2. 0
            16 October 2019 10: 01
            You will assemble the next team of like-minded loafers - the sense of this team will be a little more than nichrome.
    7. 0
      15 October 2019 19: 00
      No need to speak out for the whole of Russia. If you like Stalin like that, you don’t have to yell here, not everyone likes him.
      1. Geo
        -2
        15 October 2019 20: 03
        +1
        Stalin's lovers, as well as the rest of non-traditional minorities, I advise you to satisfy your vicious inclinations in person, without transferring it to the public plane and not trying to draw into the abyss of each vice-transverse.
    8. Geo
      -3
      15 October 2019 19: 56
      Quote: Svarog
      Russia needs Stalin!

      Nowadays we have problems with demography, as you know. The Russian people will no longer be able to pay with their lives for the uncomplicated cannibal "policy" of another Stalin - they will die out.
    9. +1
      16 October 2019 00: 37
      Quote: Svarog
      Russia needs a new Gorbachev!

      Russia needs Stalin! There will be no war with the United States. The ideology is the same now, but they can print money and buy who and what the United States wants, and so they can afford it. More precisely, everything they need has already been bought. Russia plays by the rules of the United States and only occasionally snaps when the United States begins to become impudent ..

      Only capitalist countries participated in World War I ... So a new "world" war is quite possible, because ideology does not play a big role here ...
    10. 0
      21 October 2019 06: 31
      You're right. Andrey Kochergin voiced his position and I agree with him 100%
    11. 0
      22 October 2019 04: 16
      The United States needs a new Gorbachev, and Russia itself will figure out what it needs.
  2. 0
    15 October 2019 15: 11
    when Putin will be replaced by an enlightened liberal leader.

    gentlemen, the liberals will not give a ride, at least not now. am
    and after 20 years who knows ...
    I hope that by then brazenly Saxons will rake up such problems that they won’t be in Russia, well, or at least I won’t survive recourse
    1. +2
      15 October 2019 15: 17
      In Russia, the liberal system
      1. +4
        15 October 2019 15: 37
        Our system is not liberal and not democratic and not totalitarian; it is diverse in our country depending on the current moment.
        In a word, nepoyimikoysky but only true
        1. +1
          15 October 2019 17: 30
          Quote: saigon
          Our system is not liberal and not democratic and not totalitarian; it is diverse in our country depending on the current moment.
          In a word, nepoyimikoysky but only true

          Build with us - as in the zone ... Those who look with a thieves' pack, interpretive concepts and men ... There are still all kinds of different things. And our economy is banking and speculative. All GDP growth is a continuation of the rise in price of raw materials, resources and services ... That is why people of creative labor live as outcasts of society. And morality in the country is criminal power. The continuous degradation of society.
          You’re talking with a person - it’s normal, but then either the tree breaks, or the fire is lit, or a bag of garbage and leftover grub is thrown into the bushes ... Such is the love for Nature, our mother ...
          1. -2
            15 October 2019 19: 05
            It turns out that the phrase "The people deserve the government that they have" is absolutely correct?
            1. 0
              15 October 2019 21: 16
              Quote: AS Ivanov.
              It turns out that the phrase "The people deserve the government that they have" is absolutely correct

              Here, I agree.
      2. -8
        15 October 2019 15: 52
        But it turns out that only the heads of communist propagandists.
        US liberals believe the opposite.
      3. 0
        16 October 2019 10: 02
        In Russia, the speculatively capitalist system.
    2. +1
      15 October 2019 15: 20
      Quote: bk316
      they will not be up to Russia
      Unfortunately, only a tough bargain can lead to this, but even in this case, Russia will not be ignored. In any other case, we are considered only as a territory rich in minerals.
    3. +2
      15 October 2019 15: 20
      Quote: bk316
      they will not be up to Russia
      Unfortunately, only a tough bargain can lead to this, but even in this case, Russia will not be ignored. In any other case, we are considered only as a territory rich in minerals.
    4. +2
      15 October 2019 15: 45
      Quote: bk316
      when Putin will be replaced by an enlightened liberal leader.

      gentlemen, the liberals will not give a ride, at least not now. am
      and after 20 years who knows ...
      I hope that by then brazenly Saxons will rake up such problems that they won’t be in Russia, well, or at least I won’t survive recourse

      Maybe it won't. Because one more in a row (much more liberal than Putin), the country will not survive! Putin is a possible peak of liberalism, though some kind of perverted one. It is with him that the state deliberately slides into social Darwinism, and instead is offered a strange "freedom" - went to peace rallyget 4 years term. But if, if from among the highest elite, do what you want, in punishment you will be assigned to another place of the sovereign service. Well, or here too, a fresh example of Mr. Putin’s liberal behavior (source rupres.com):
      Dubrovsky’s resignation turned out to be forced and shameful: his conspiracy with the private company Yuzhuralmost JSC in cutting road money, which Russkaya Press wrote in detail, with calculations down to a penny under regional and city contracts, was officially confirmed by the Federal Antimonopoly Service. However, Dubrovsky was allowed to leave of his own free will. So far, the investigating authorities have not analyzed his numerous abuses in the field of the construction business, have not studied the raider history in the Chelyabinsk trash market and other "business interests" of the Dubrovsky family, which Russkaya Pressa detailed in her investigations.
      And we also read "amazing" facts about this gentleman, who would have thought (source trunov.com)!
      It is not possible to detain or interrogate the suspect - Dubrovsky has been hiding for several months in Switzerland, the media write.
      As the source said, Dubrovsky had no problems crossing the border. In early April, after all the procedures related to the resignation from the post of head of the region, he was returned a passport that was in the presidential administration. Two weeks before departure, Dubrovsky visited the Kremlin at a meeting between President Vladimir Putin and former governors, where he received the Order of Friendship.

      Here is such a liberalist (in his actions), Mr. Putin. Someone stolen billions and a quiet trip to Switzerland, in addition to the order from the hands of the president. And to someone beggarly s.p. and pensions, to which you still have to try soooooo just try to live out, and of course the real terms for the rallies.
      No, Putin is certainly not even a liberal, namely, that he is a liberal. And he has such a liberal team (source znak.com from December 8, 2018): Boris Dubrovsky finally joined United Russia. Medvedev handed him a membership card .

      PS They will devour the rest of the population and will not choke. Although I hope that this time all the same ... choke. laughing
      1. BAI
        +2
        15 October 2019 16: 47
        And we also read "amazing" facts about this gentleman, who would have thought (source trunov.com)!

        Read incriminating information. You will find so many amazing facts that you will cease to be surprised.
      2. +2
        15 October 2019 17: 28
        I don’t understand your bewilderment with Putin and the government. I honestly don't understand. We have capitalism. This means that everything that benefits the pocket of individual rich people (and even in power) will be cultivated with more and more force. Russia's political interests are in 22nd (maybe even more) place. The main thing is that the "wallet" is full of a particular gentleman. This explains ALL lewdness and interests. Why fence theories and ask "DOCOLE" !!!! ?
        Russia will be surrendered by those who "run" it. It doesn't matter whether it is a high-ranking group of gentlemen or a clan of middle-level officials. It is important that we cannot oppose ANYTHING to this so far and all that remains is to act at the grassroots level (vote?) In the hope that it will get better. It won't.
        1. 0
          15 October 2019 20: 23
          Quote: AKuzenka
          I don’t understand your bewilderment with Putin and the government. I honestly don't understand. We have capitalism. This means that everything that benefits the pocket of individual rich people (and even in power) will be cultivated with more and more force. Russia's political interests are in 22nd (maybe even more) place. The main thing is that the "wallet" is full of a particular gentleman. This explains ALL lewdness and interests. Why fence theories and ask "DOCOLE" !!!! ?
          Russia will be surrendered by those who "run" it. It doesn't matter whether it is a high-ranking group of gentlemen or a clan of middle-level officials. It is important that we cannot oppose ANYTHING to this so far and all that remains is to act at the grassroots level (vote?) In the hope that it will get better. It won't.

          It was sarcasm on my part:
          who would have thought
          , that's why
          "amazing" facts
          taken in quotation marks. In general, I agree with your opinion. hi
    5. -8
      15 October 2019 15: 54
      But the vaccine from the USSR has already weakened apparently. What did the liberals not please you with? After all, normal ideas are said, but the fact that under them all kinds of mowers ... or rather, a multi-honored government with a guarantor at the head is not the problem of the liberals.
      So we need, as I believe, respect for each other and a more active social position, so that the government understands why they are sitting there.
      1. +2
        15 October 2019 18: 38
        Quote: NordOst16
        Than you liberals did not please? After all, normal ideas say

        Chubais, Gaidar and other former communists like them, but now they don’t understand who (they will accept any idea, if only He was good), good people say idea ?! Oh well... laughing
        1. -1
          15 October 2019 18: 57
          There are no former communists.
          1. 0
            15 October 2019 21: 07
            Quote: AS Ivanov.
            There are no former communists.

            Annealed! good laughing
          2. +1
            16 October 2019 11: 55
            As much as you like. As an example: EBN-1 secretary of the regional committee, E. T Gaidar, Shushkevich, Petrushka, Sobchak, Gorbachev, etc. ALL of them wore tickets of the CPSU, but then "recognized"
            1. +2
              16 October 2019 11: 57
              So these are the Communists, and high-ranking ones. Is not it? And the price of the party is worthless, in the depths of which such personalities appeared.
              1. +2
                16 October 2019 12: 31
                Quote: AS Ivanov.
                So these are the Communists, and high-ranking ones. Is not it? And the price of the party is worthless, in the depths of which such personalities appeared.

                And again, your truth, in almost all republics (countries) of the former USSR, former party or Komsomol workers are in power, even the notorious Russophobe Dalia Grybauskaite, was with a party card from about 1983, the Communist Party is completely discredited, even the Japanese "comrades" are communists - internationalists, they demand territory from Russia, and the Chinese "comrades" will not mind snatching a piece. request
        2. -2
          15 October 2019 19: 01
          Well, there’s a lot of things written on the fence too, and they can even be called the Pope, but as they were dubious personalities, they will remain
          1. +1
            15 October 2019 21: 09
            Quote: NordOst16
            Well, there’s a lot written on the fence too,

            They had a party card, the comparison with the fence was not correct. I repeat, how old are you? wink
            1. -1
              15 October 2019 21: 46
              Quote: Tank Hard
              I repeat, how old are you?

              Why do you need to know? I try not to advertise much on personal data on the network.

              Quote: Tank Hard
              They had a party card, the comparison with the fence was not correct.

              It’s quite a suitable comparison, especially when they call themselves liberals.
              1. 0
                16 October 2019 12: 36
                Quote: NordOst16
                Why do you need to know? I try not to advertise much on personal data on the network

                It is clear that the user is young and the discussion is pointless. request
                1. 0
                  16 October 2019 20: 24
                  Very funny position. I hope you understand that this argument can be turned around by saying that some things must be done and discussed in younger years.
                  1. +1
                    16 October 2019 20: 27
                    Quote: NordOst16
                    I hope you understand that this argument can be turned

                    What, in fact, are you doing. Bye. hi
                    1. -2
                      16 October 2019 20: 36
                      Quote: Tank Hard
                      What, in fact, are you doing.

                      I agree, although the economy is a completely different direction than my main field of activity, but it expands my horizons quite strongly and allows you to take a different look at different points of view in terms of building a future society.

                      Quote: Tank Hard
                      Goodbye.

                      And good luck to you.
  3. +1
    15 October 2019 15: 22
    The scenario for this is already known: it was such a course that Mikhail Gorbachev conducted and continued Boris Yeltsin.


    As if Putin is not following the path that Yeltsin established ..
    1. -5
      15 October 2019 15: 52
      Probably does not go if it causes such a tantrum in the USA.
  4. +6
    15 October 2019 15: 30
    The new Gorbachev is needed not by Russia, but by the pins. We really would instead of the new labeled old Stalin. winked
    1. +2
      15 October 2019 18: 14
      Alas, this will not give anything. Suppose a miracle happened: instead of V.V., Stalin appeared in the Kremlin, but he alone could not do anything. We need a team of like-minded people, we need Beria at the head of the NKVD. By the way, after the books of the Kremlin, I look differently at L.P. Beria and Stalin.
  5. 0
    15 October 2019 15: 32
    American leaders in the person of J. Kennedy and R. McNamara finally came to the conclusion that the concept of the first strike was practically unacceptable. As part of a "flexible response", American theorists began to develop the doctrine of "mutually guaranteed destruction" (abbreviated as "MAD" from the English, "mutually assured destruction"). The Soviet Union formally criticized the theoretical innovations of the United States, but followed them and aligned their actions with the changes that the United States made in its behavior.

    This doctrine has allowed everyone more than 50 years to live in peace.
    It must be put into effect again, but officially, and unofficially, the United States, China and Russia should divide the world into zones of influence. And Peace and Grace will come.
  6. -3
    15 October 2019 15: 54
    Is there life on Mars, is there life on Mars,
    will there be a nuclear war between America and Russia, will there be a nuclear war ....
    this is not known to science.
    But if America does not become, few will be upset in Russia, and more precisely some liberals.
    And Americans should not even hope about a change of course:
    Putin lived, Putin lives, Putin will live. Something like this. There is someone to protect the system.
    Despite the fact that I'm almost a Putinist.
    1. +1
      15 October 2019 17: 11
      Quote: prior
      Despite the fact that I'm almost a Putinist.

      Exactly, aren't you kidding? And I don’t even know what to think.
      Putin lived, Putin lives, Putin will live. Something like this.

      laughing
    2. -2
      15 October 2019 17: 47
      Quote: prior
      Putin lived, Putin lives, Putin will live. Something like this.

      Something like this? And why the hell are we? We need:
      If my native country lived
      And there are no other worries ...

      And you are slogging slogans about Putin to us ... He lived his own, didn’t overwork, he didn’t rub his corns and didn’t rip off his back ... An interesting, skinny Leningrad boy with a deficit of weight and dubious knowledge who decided to build muscle to rule first in the yard, then - in the country. Surely from childhood I was dreaming?
      Quote: prior
      There is someone to protect the system.

      I see chain dogs, a pack of bone breakers - right on the screens, I don’t observe a system that needs to be protected ... For what? For the sake of thieves' rabble, what settled down at all levels pretending to be decent citizens? Or that miserable fate that lawmakers bought up?
      Now, as soon as I hear talk about American aggression, or Ukrainian nationalism, or British chauvinism, or about any territorial claims and sanctions lawlessness, I always suspect that the Russians are again preparing some kind of pension-communal-tax dirty trick ...
      Surely the one who lives in the Kremlin does not know this ...
      1. +1
        16 October 2019 12: 02
        , I already say how much: A REQUIRED OCCUPATIONAL LEADER IS REQUIRED
  7. 0
    15 October 2019 16: 00
    God forbid if at the head of Russia there will be another such village boob.
  8. lot
    +1
    15 October 2019 16: 04
    Already discussed. .. power will not bomb its castles beyond the hill. to relatives too ..
    made laugh.
    1. 0
      15 October 2019 18: 57
      And no one will ask them - they have a family there.
  9. +2
    15 October 2019 16: 05
    And the States need a new Gorbachev.
    1. +1
      16 October 2019 12: 08
      The states nevermind who will be Putin's successor, even though the gray-brown-red is in the lead. It is required of him: a reduction in defense funds, to recognize American interests and all
  10. +2
    15 October 2019 16: 17
    Quote: NordOst16
    This is unnecessary, violence will never bring to good

    They hit one cheek, turn the other ... The position is certainly good, but not working ... And if you are beaten by naughty Saxons, then it is deadly.
  11. +2
    15 October 2019 16: 33
    The result of the policies of Gorbachev and Yeltsin-the United States ceased to reckon with the interests of the Russian Federation in the economy, security, and politics. Conclusion - If a politician who tries to pursue a similar policy comes to power, he will be eliminated either by the army or by oligarchs or people. As long as the United States does not learn to respect the interests of other countries, they will be afraid that they will get a nuclear club for their dirty tricks. The power of the United States is based on the dollar as an international currency, so they need to fear not war, but the refusal of international payments in their currency. On this side, the scribe creeps up to them. And yet - it is naive to believe that creating the problems of Russia in Europe, the United States will not get problems at its borders. hi
    1. 0
      15 October 2019 17: 25
      Conclusion - If a politician who attempts to pursue a similar policy comes to power, he will be eliminated either by the army or by oligarchs or people.
      And why then neither Gorbachev nor Yeltsin were eliminated?
      1. +2
        15 October 2019 19: 21
        Quote: Vadmir
        And why then neither Gorbachev nor Yeltsin were eliminated?

        Well, Gorbachev did not leave on his own, neither the army nor the people supported him, the siloviki put him on Yeltsin, the people went to the barricades. Yeltsin, with the hands of power ministers, destroyed the army, the KGB, the militia of the USSR and gave people a chance to enrich themselves. Many went into business, but the strongest survived, and people had no time for it. Now everything has "settled down" The generals know that they are paid good money while the authorities need them and an external enemy has appeared, and the people of Russia realized that they cannot feed their bourgeois and American people, and they believe that mattress makers are to blame for their poverty, which by their sanctions do not allow the Russian economy to develop. hi
  12. BAI
    +1
    15 October 2019 16: 44
    Russia "is preparing for a conflict with the United States in the Caribbean"

    This, as I understand it, is a continuation and development of the recent article "The Kon-Tiki Project: A Deadly Russian Answer to America"?
  13. 0
    15 October 2019 16: 45
    That's right, there will always be traitors
  14. +1
    15 October 2019 16: 54
    Well, well, even from the first spotted goat they didn’t come to their senses, then they try to suck us in the second one.
    Yes, it’s better to immediately put a stone on his neck and from the Swallow’s Nest in the Crimea into the water.
    As a last resort, to the states for striped for life, in the sense that it would never show up here again.
  15. +1
    15 October 2019 17: 07
    Our government is doing an excellent job of eliminating the country and people,
    America does not need to do anything.

    Optimization of the Russian healthcare system in action, ”experts say that if the authorities continue to close hospitals at such a pace (353 per year), by 2021–2022 the number of medical facilities in the country will reach 3 thousand, that is, the level of the Russian Empire in 1913.
  16. +1
    15 October 2019 17: 10
    The sandbox is small, the contingent of people tinkering in it is comparable to the level of an average housewife, for nothing that sounds like a solid "politician of the world scale", but in fact the struggle for toys, for space for play, for attention to oneself. One can talk endlessly about friendship or war. one thing replaces the other, so the question of being friends - not being friends does not make sense. There is a possibility - we are friends, there is no possibility of fighting!)))
  17. 0
    15 October 2019 17: 18
    Well, here's an American Biba found, it remains to cast a voice in the form of a "genuine opinion" Boba ...
  18. +1
    15 October 2019 17: 22
    The USSR fell apart for the sake of the USA. Now it’s time for the USA to fall apart and then everything will be honest !!!!
  19. +2
    15 October 2019 17: 32
    This time, Gorby should appear in the states, with all the ensuing consequences.
  20. 0
    15 October 2019 17: 35
    humpback to the white house !! Alaska of Russia !!!!! Stalin Beria in the Kremlin !!!!!!!!
    1. 0
      15 October 2019 18: 55
      "Stalin Beria to the Kremlin !!!!!!!!" - Alas, these are not observed now.
  21. 0
    15 October 2019 18: 19
    HITS STRESS. It's time to deal with the "heroes" of the "criminal revolution" of the 90s, all by their earrings. And then we are ruled by her Majesty bribe.
  22. +3
    15 October 2019 18: 42
    I think the potheads have taken over this site. For a long time I have noticed that the resource is overflowing with senseless news about ukruine, which is already nauseous, and these constant articles with explicit and implicit stuffing in the spirit of "how everything is bad in Russia." It repulses, I don't want to go in, but once there was a good objective resource about weapons, etc. Alas.
  23. +1
    16 October 2019 08: 01
    Send the new Gorbachev to the USA and Great Britain, let everything break there, but Russia needs creators, not capitulators, thieves and crooks!
  24. 0
    16 October 2019 12: 04
    It is clear what the US and the EU want from us. How do they want to achieve this? Nuclear war is canceled, of course, it is too expensive and unpredictable. But do the "partners" have projects and plans to close tobacco factories and wine and vodka factories in Russia, buy retail chains in order to seize food and manufactured goods from there to organize a general deficit, or prohibit the sale of cars to citizens, apartments, etc. large real estate? Or it will be done gradually, stupid and fooling the population, gradually taking over what is bad or, on the contrary, good, finding reference points for this in the face of local princelings and kings, who are still unfamiliar with glass beads, new models of iPhones, fire water and, as a result, shackles and a beautiful barrack on the plantations for their subordinate tribesmen?
  25. 0
    16 October 2019 14: 41
    Quote: NordOst16
    And why change what has been formed over thousands of years if not millions of years? From time immemorial, the very best received the best. Only those who are better able to adapt to the environment. It is necessary to proceed, when building a society, from what nature has given us otherwise otherwise a beautiful, fair, but unattainable dream will appear.


    And here the fascist got out. In all its brown plague.
  26. 0
    16 October 2019 21: 34
    in the comments of the campaign, some patients are on their heads))) such nonsense)))) and everyone thinks you are an esperd)))))) what wretched you are))) they talk about communism and capitalism, they give some kind of crazy examples))) what are you better off each other? are you the same)))
  27. 0
    16 October 2019 21: 46
    Quote: lexus
    Russia needs a new Gorbachev!

    All the old is not worthy "carry out".

    Quote: NordOst16
    This is unnecessary, violence will never bring to good

    Nonsense. Give them a finger - they’ll swallow them on the elbow and chop off them on the shoulder. Peaceful American Guys ...
  28. 0
    17 October 2019 15: 26
    It would not hurt to hang Tagged first!
  29. 0
    19 October 2019 20: 54
    definitely needed, and it’s Gorbachev ... to finish off the leftovers, but the current leadership of Gorbachev doesn’t need ... so nostalgia for missed opportunities ...
  30. vka
    0
    20 October 2019 12: 27
    USA is the main rot of the world !!!!!
  31. 0
    20 October 2019 13: 30
    The States need Gorbachev and he is already there. And the author cannot even boast that he won the war that he wages in the apartment.

"Right Sector" (banned in Russia), "Ukrainian Insurgent Army" (UPA) (banned in Russia), ISIS (banned in Russia), "Jabhat Fatah al-Sham" formerly "Jabhat al-Nusra" (banned in Russia) , Taliban (banned in Russia), Al-Qaeda (banned in Russia), Anti-Corruption Foundation (banned in Russia), Navalny Headquarters (banned in Russia), Facebook (banned in Russia), Instagram (banned in Russia), Meta (banned in Russia), Misanthropic Division (banned in Russia), Azov (banned in Russia), Muslim Brotherhood (banned in Russia), Aum Shinrikyo (banned in Russia), AUE (banned in Russia), UNA-UNSO (banned in Russia), Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar people (banned in Russia), Legion “Freedom of Russia” (armed formation, recognized as terrorist in the Russian Federation and banned), Kirill Budanov (included to the Rosfinmonitoring list of terrorists and extremists)

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