"Poseidon" will go into battle, guided by the seabed

299

The story of the Poseidon’s military campaign to the US coast should begin with a way to navigate under water.

Salt seawater is an electrolyte that prevents the spread of radio waves. At the depths at which Poseidon will operate, the external radio control of the device, as well as the reception of signals from Glonass / GPS satellites, is not possible.



An autonomous inertial navigation system (ANN) is capable of leading the Poseidon throughout the day, but its capabilities are also not unlimited. Over time, the ANN accumulates an error, and the calculations lose their reliability. An auxiliary system using external landmarks is required.

The installation of “hydroacoustic beacons” at the bottom is a meaningless event in the face of the enemy, who is able to immediately track and disrupt their work.

The problem of underwater navigation for the Poseidon apparatus can only be solved with the use of a relief navigation system. But is it possible to adapt the navigation systems used in cruise missiles to work underwater?

Firstly, you need a map of the seabed.

Myth No.1. It is impossible to make a map along the entire route of Poseidon


In discussions on the Doomsday Torpedo, it has been repeatedly believed that mapping the entire bottom of the Atlantic Ocean, from the Barents Sea to New York Harbor, can take more than a decade and will require extraordinary effort.

In reality, for a relief-based navigation system, this amount of work is redundant and simply unnecessary.

The proof is the described principle of the TERCOM (Terrain Contour Matching) system for the Tomahawk missile. According to the statement of Western experts, when flying a cruise missile over land, 64 correction areas are selected. 7-8 km lengths are selected in advance for which there is a “reference” digital map stored in the memory of the on-board computer.

"Poseidon" will go into battle, guided by the seabed


Under normal conditions, TERCOM only works on a quarter of the route (with a range of KR about 2000 km), the rest of the time the rocket flies under the control of the ANN. The accuracy of accelerometers and gyroscopes is enough to bring Tomahawk to the next correction area, where, according to TERCOM, the ANN will be amended.

Last year, relief navigation systems celebrated their 60 anniversary. At the end of the 50's. they have become a worthy replacement for astrocorrection systems. Cruise missiles needed to go to low altitudes, from where the stars were not visible.

Even the most severe storm is unable to disturb the calm of the deep sea. The movement of the underwater vehicle is associated with less perturbations than the low-altitude flight of the RS in the atmosphere. That is why the data of inertial systems on board submarines remain valid for a significantly longer time (days).

The conclusion that can be drawn from the available facts: when laying the routes of Poseidon, a significantly lower density of correction areas will be required. Separate squares of the ocean floor. All further questions should be addressed to the hydrographic service of the Navy.

Myth No.2. Sonar is not able to provide the necessary accuracy of scanning the bottom


The permissible error in measuring the height of the relief during TERCOM operation is not more than 1 meters. What accuracy do modern sonar products designed for bottom mapping provide? Is it possible to place such a sonar in a limited-sized Poseidon case?

The answer to these questions will be sonar images of the remains of ships. At the first is the Japanese Mogami cruiser, discovered in May of this at a depth of 1450 m.



The second image shows the Hornet aircraft carrier sunk in battle near Santa Cruz Island. The remains of the aircraft carrier are at a depth of 5400 meters.



The detail of these images is conclusive evidence in favor of seabed mapping systems. By the way, the pictures were taken by Paul Allen’s team from his side yachts private oceanographic ship R / V Petrel.

Myth No.3. The bottom topography is subject to change


Time will pass, and digital bottom cards will lose their relevance. Somewhere in a million years, it will be necessary to compose new ones.

The main changes on the ocean floor are associated with volcanic activity and the accumulation of bottom sediments of organic and inorganic origin.

According to modern observations, the average rate of accumulation of bottom sediments in the middle part of the Atlantic Ocean is 2 centimeters over 1000 years. For the Pacific, even lower values ​​are indicated.

It is hard to believe the reality of these numbers, but the paradox has a simple explanation. Nobody throws stones in the middle of the ocean, spills gravel and gravel M600 into the Mariana Trench. All objects that have fallen into the ocean are first dissolved and decomposed in water. Particles dissolved in the sea thickness take millennia to reach the bottom.

In coastal areas, the rate of sediment accumulation is orders of magnitude higher due to sediment load and sediment brought by rivers. However, the ocean is too large to make any difference in this case.

Despite the increased tectonic activity, the frequency of cataclysms on the ocean floor, associated with talus, avalanches and displacements of soil layers, is much lower than, for example, the frequency of avalanches in the mountains. Suppose 100 years ago, an earthquake caused an avalanche-like descent on the side of a seamount. Now it will take hundreds of thousands of years until enough deposits are accumulated on its slopes for the next cataclysm.

Young underwater volcanoes, swell-like structures along the ocean ridges (formed when the Earth's axis is displaced) are all “young” only by the standards of geological eras. The age of these formations is millions of years!

Gloomy calm reigns in the ocean depths. The absence of winds, erosion and any signs of urbanization makes the terrain unchanged for millennia.

For comparison. How many problems do cruise missiles fly over land? The digital mapping process for TERCOM is hampered by seasonal changes in terrain. Everywhere there are uniform forms of relief in which the use of TERCOM is physically impossible. Routes bypass large ponds, missiles avoid snow-covered plains and sand dunes on their way.

Unlike the listed difficulties, there is always a bottom in the depths of the deepest ocean. Covered with a unique “pattern” of relief details.

The relief system is the most reliable and realistic navigation method for the Poseidon underwater vehicle.

Why is this method not yet applied in practice? The answer is that this was not necessary. Unlike the Poseidon, which is constantly moving in the depths, submarines regularly rise to the surface for communication sessions. The submariners have the opportunity to get the exact coordinates using space navigation aids (Cyclone, Sail, GLONASS, GPS, NAVSTAR).

The fastest under water


In this part of the article we will not discuss specific technical solutions; the design of the Poseidon is covered in a veil of military secrecy.

However, we have the opportunity, on the basis of declassified characteristics, to calculate other interrelated parameters of an unmanned underwater vehicle with a nuclear power plant.

For example, the claimed speed is known - 100 nodes. What is the power of the Poseidon power plant?

There is a rule of thumb. For any displacement object, the power of the power plant increases to a third degree from the speed.

Example. The Soviet torpedo "53-38" (53 - reference to the caliber, 38 - the year of adoption) had three speed modes: 30, 34 and 44,5 units with engine power 112, 160 and 318 hp respectively. As you can see, the rule is not lying.

And the age of the torpedo itself has absolutely nothing to do with it. The same torpedo required three times more power to increase the speed by 1,5 times.



The following example is more interesting. The heavy torpedo "65-73" caliber 650 mm had a length of 11 meters and a mass of 5 tons. The torpedo was equipped with a 2 MW (1,07 hp) 1450DT short-life gas turbine engine - one of the most powerful ever used in a torpedo weapons. With it, the estimated speed of the product "65-73" could reach 50 knots.

Theoretical question: what engine power could provide the 65-73 torpedo with the speed of 100 nodes?

The speed will double, which means that the required power of the power plant will increase eight times. Instead of 1450 HP we get the value 11 600 hp

Now is the time to turn to the Poseidon nuclear torpedo.

Based on the information about the purpose of the “nuclear torpedo” and the fact that it is planned to be launched from carrier submarines (for example, information about the launch with the Sarov experimental diesel-electric submarine), it should be noted that the dimensions of the Poseidon are much more suitable for torpedo weapons than the size of submarines. The smallest of which (the domestic Lira and the French Rubin) had a displacement of about 2,5 thousand tons.



The caliber, length and displacement of the Poseidon can be several times greater than the performance of 650-mm torpedoes. The exact values ​​are unknown to us. But in this case, the differences do not matter much when assessing the required power of the power plant. To achieve the speed of 50 nodes, the Poseidon, like the 65-73 torpedo, needs at least 1450 hp, for 100 nodes, it would take at least 11600 hp (8,5 MW) net power.

How different in size are the engines of the same power enough?


For displacement objects, whose sizes vary within the same order, the difference in displacement does not require a sharp increase in the power of the power plant. A striking example is at the same speed the power of the power plants of a typical destroyer and an aircraft carrier differ by only two times with an 10-fold difference in the displacement of these ships! Much more problems arise from the desire to increase speed on the 3 node.

We summarize. When driving at a declared speed of 100 knots (185,2 km / h), the Poseidon will require a power plant with a net power of at least 8,5 MW (11 600 hp).

We fix this value as the lower boundary and will focus on it in the future.

8,5 megawatt - is it a lot or a little? How does this indicator compare with the characteristics of other ships and naval weapons?

For an underwater vehicle with a displacement of several tens of tons 8,5 MW - this is a monstrous amount. More than the nuclear power plant of the Ryubi multipurpose submarine is capable of developing.

7 MW (9500 hp) on the propeller shaft allow the 2500-ton French submarine to develop underwater speeds at 25 nodes.



However, the miniature "Ryubi" was not built for records, but to save money. A much more significant example is the Soviet multipurpose submarine, etc. 705 (K) Lira!

Despite its significantly large dimensions, the Lira was roughly equivalent in terms of displacement to the Ryubi. Above-water in / and - 2300 tons, underwater - 3000 tons. The titanium case was lighter than steel. And Lira itself was a star of the first magnitude. Equipped with a liquid metal coolant reactor, it developed under water speeds above 40 nodes!

1,6 times faster than Ryubi. What power did the Lira power plant have? Right, 1,6 in a cube.

29 megawatts (40 000 hp) at a thermal power of the 155 MW reactor. Outstanding performance for submarines of such a small size.


Withdrawal from the K-123 workshop, the head submarine of the 705 (K) project


Today, the creators of Poseidon are faced with an even more complex and non-trivial task. Place a nuclear power plant with 3,4 times less power (8,5 MW) in a casing with approximately 50-60 times less displacement.

In other words, the specific energy performance of the Poseidon nuclear reactor should be 15 times higher than that of a reactor with a liquid metal coolant (LMT), which was used on submarines of the 705 (K) project. The same 15 times greater specific efficiency should be demonstrated by all the mechanisms associated with the conversion of the thermal energy of the reactor into the translational energy of motion of the underwater vehicle.

100 knots - very high speed in water, requiring EXCLUSIVE energy costs. Probably those who drew the beautiful figure “100 knots” did not fully realize the whole paradox of the situation.

Unlike the Shkval submarine rocket, the use of a solid propellant rocket engine for Poseidon is ruled out - it has a range of 10 000 kilometers. “Torpedo of the Apocalypse” requires a nuclear installation that provides 15 times greater specific power than all known reactors with iron-ore fusion.



The main discussions related to the appearance of the Poseidon nuclear torpedo are conducted in the economy and defense industry. Loud statements about the creation of miracle weapons were made against the background, to put it mildly, of modest successes in the creation of traditional weapons. Since 2014, not a single nuclear submarine has been accepted into the Navy.

On the other hand, as you know, everything is possible if desired. But to create technologies that provide multiple growth opportunities, one desire may not be enough. As a rule, such studies are accompanied by intermediate results, but Poseidon is surrounded by an impenetrable veil of secrecy.
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  1. +2
    11 October 2019 18: 06
    While the enemy is drawing offensive maps, we are changing landscapes, moreover, manually. When the time of attack comes, the enemy is lost in unfamiliar terrain and comes to full sky readiness

    Now the fur seals will at least get down to business ... wassat
    1. +2
      12 October 2019 21: 15
      And I don't understand how the "shadow" effect is formed in the sonar picture.
      It seems that the ship is lit from the side. And on the other hand, a shadow.
      1. +1
        17 October 2019 15: 16
        Just the given "pictures" not of the echo sounder, but of photo and video equipment from underwater vehicles, the use of illumination to take pictures and gives a shadow.
        1. 0
          17 October 2019 17: 57
          I also thought so at the beginning. But, given the transparency of the sea water, it is unrealistic to make a "general" picture. And synthesized piece by piece will not give such a clear shadow.
          This photo has very good transparency. But even beyond 40 meters nothing is visible
          1. -1
            18 October 2019 09: 17
            Frankly, I understand little in the photographs underwater, but I am very familiar with the situation of obtaining images from sonar. No GAS, neither in the active mode, nor, especially, in the passive one, will give the given image simply according to the laws of physics, which so far cannot be canceled even by Putin. As for the photos of the sunken ships, unfortunately, I can not help you. I am interested in issues related to the competence of the armed forces, amateur photos of the seabed and objects on it are for lovers.
    2. 0
      13 October 2019 21: 23
      For such a torpedo, a submarine is not really needed either: place a torpedo in a special compartment of a coal barge. And it doesn’t matter in which of the seas the ocean connects to the oceans, this barge is located - the atomic engine does not limit its range. Another question is that the enemy will not instantly receive an answer, but a little later, depending on the distance from the launch site to the end user.
  2. +14
    11 October 2019 18: 20
    If there weren’t Kaptsov, it would be worth coming up with.
    1. +14
      11 October 2019 18: 22
      And I liked it...
      1. +8
        11 October 2019 18: 30
        Myth No.1. It is impossible to make a map along the entire route of Poseidon

        Myth No.2. Sonar is not able to provide the necessary accuracy of scanning the bottom

        At a speed of 100 knots, it’s definitely not capable. And the Americans will not let our hydrographs into a cannon shot.
        On the other hand, as you know, everything is possible if desired.

        In dreams, it is not at all difficult to break away from reality.
        but Poseidon is surrounded by an impenetrable veil of secrecy.

        And this can be understood in different ways.
        1. +3
          11 October 2019 18: 47
          In things in which, to put it mildly, I am not strong, I am guided only by my own concepts of common sense (can this be or not) And I am guided by the preaching of the priest Sivoldai
          Man! There is a lot of the unknown. There is a taco that is known only to me, but you are unknown. There is such that only you know, but I don’t know— There is also such that neither you nor I know !.
          (Stepan Pisakhov).
          1. +9
            11 October 2019 19: 50
            In your judgments, you have the right to focus on anything and anyone, if this does not contradict laws, morality and conscience.
            This is a somewhat different matter. If during the "Iron Curtain" secret information became available to the intelligence of the opposing sides, now, in the age of smartphones, the Internet and shamelessness, this is not a problem at all. Communicate with people - half of the youth and 20% of the mature population "would not mind" dumping abroad. In the design bureau and in the production of salary of designers and engineers miserable. Do you remember that series of murders of leading designers of defense enterprises? My opinion is that at least some of them were simply taken abroad to this "tune". Who creates superweapons in the era of ignorance and ignorance that has come in Russia? And yes, I am not aware of a single case of a religious rite performed on a new technique in Soviet times, which did not prevent it from being the best in the world. As well as constantly behold the characters who, loudly declaring their piety, rush to "get drunk" and make love in this world, without waiting for God's mercy in the afterlife, although they call for it.
            "Selling" intangibles is the lot of scammers, forgive me.
            1. 0
              12 October 2019 09: 09
              What kind of answer you got is too detailed. What does morality, piety, religious rites and adultery, ignoramuses, spies and scammers have to do with it? I just said that, in view of my complete non-profile in this matter, I try to be guided by the principle that something is not complete, it may be. And your detailed answer resembles this-
              - Citizens! ... - Life dictates its own laws, its own cruel laws. I will not tell you about the purpose of our meeting - you know it. The goal is holy. Everywhere we hear groans. From all over our vast country they cry for help. We must lend a helping hand, and we will extend it. Some of you serve and eat bread and butter, others engage in latrine and eat sandwiches with caviar. Both of them sleep in their beds and hide in warm blankets. Only small children, street children, are without a prize. These flowers of the street, or, as the proletarians of intellectual labor put it, flowers on asphalt, deserve a better fate.
        2. +1
          11 October 2019 22: 36
          To correct the path, "Poseidon" can probably slow down, made a correction and on the way!
          1. -2
            11 October 2019 22: 46
            Too often you have to slow down and forget about 100 knots. At such moments, it will be very vulnerable to the PLUR warhead, torpedo or nuclear, which will cause its premature triggering or elimination, and at the same time disrupt the task of its "brothers".
        3. 0
          12 October 2019 07: 32
          Quote: lexus
          At a speed of 100 knots, it’s definitely not capable.

          Fuck off? Do you know what is the speed of sound in water?
        4. -1
          13 October 2019 21: 28
          Quote: lexus
          And the Americans will not let our hydrographs into a cannon shot.

          And from our nuclear submarines, previously, the bottom of the proposed route can not be charted?
    2. -2
      11 October 2019 19: 25
      As for me, some kind of nonsense. Ordinary gyroscopes there perfectly allow to do everything, IMHO. In addition, surgical accuracy is not required there, 200-300 meters here and there will come down.
      1. +2
        11 October 2019 19: 31
        In the oceans, there are so-called layers, the permeability between which causes many problems for hydroacoustics. In other words, it is better for Poseidon to go in the bottom layers, which will greatly impair the ability to detect it in time and complicate its interception by orders of magnitude.
        1. -1
          12 October 2019 07: 34
          Quote: lexus
          In the oceans there are so-called layers, the permeability between which causes a lot of problems for sonar.

          Teach materiel before disgrace like that. Thermohydrocline has been known for a long time and can cope with it.
        2. +1
          13 October 2019 12: 57
          In other words, "Poseidon" better go

          He'd better not go at all. From the word at all. Launch "in advance" a reason to provoke the enemy, launch during a missile attack - hopelessly late.
      2. +1
        12 October 2019 10: 18
        If you have 1 turn with an accuracy of 1 degree, then you probably have enough accuracy for the eyes. And if you have a route with 20 turns, then the 20th turn will be carried out with an error of + -20 degrees from the given. I'm not talking about course correction along the route in straight sections.
        And in the worst case scenario, the deviation can be significantly more than 200-300 meters.
    3. +1
      12 October 2019 03: 47
      ... could it be better to go about women? ..
  3. +10
    11 October 2019 18: 22
    A very interesting and reasoned article .. And really
    Apocalypse "requires a nuclear installation that provides 15 times greater specific power than all known reactors with iron ore materials.

    this is a serious challenge for science and engineers, and given
    The main discussions related to the appearance of the Poseidon nuclear torpedo are conducted in the economy and defense industry. Loud statements about the creation of miracle weapons were made against the background, to put it mildly, of modest successes in the creation of traditional weapons. Since 2014, not a single nuclear submarine has been accepted into the Navy.

    I doubt that such weapons already exist ..
    1. +2
      11 October 2019 18: 37
      My surprise is different. If there is, why not "optimized". As the experience of recent decades shows, our weapons are not afraid of the laws of physics either, but the excessive "efficiency" of managers-optimizers.
    2. +25
      11 October 2019 19: 45
      There is much debate about the latest weapons presented to the public in 2018. According to some, such weapons were created in practice, but we won’t know the details - secrecy. According to skeptics - with cartoons, the Defense Ministry covers up failures in the creation of traditional weapons. Where there are a thousand Armat and 8 multipurpose nuclear submarines before 2020

      My opinion is that there was the Soviet Union, they took his word for it. Why?

      The USSR has never boasted of what it does not have. He did not say what he HAS. Therefore, they believed him even without words.

      The successes of the Soviet military-industrial complex in the creation of any traditional weapon, the development of any element, from space to the ocean floor, were not in doubt. A new tank, an airplane, a titanium submarine - here they are, admire. No one doubted that the Union was conducting research in the field of promising weapons of armaments, and it has a lot of concepts and developments at the forefront of science and technology.

      Nowadays, the situation is the opposite, the statements of the Ministry of Defense on the creation of nuclear missiles and torpedoes need to be accompanied by some kind of evidence from related fields of technology. "Successes" in the creation of traditional weapons, alas, rather confirm doubts about the reality of "Poseidon"

      Such miraculous weapons and super-technologies that change all ideas about nuclear technology could not appear out of nowhere in one day. And for some reason they did not find use anywhere except a nuclear missile and a nuclear torpedo. Which, of course, will not be shown to the public
      1. +3
        11 October 2019 19: 57
        Honestly, I read your articles, but closer to the end, I stumble on the ground, thinking "where is all this?" A little higher mark 1 I tried as much as possible to answer his comment hi
        1. +3
          11 October 2019 20: 31
          I read the comments under the articles))
          You have a good nickname, Lexus. IMHO the best brand
          1. -1
            11 October 2019 20: 59
            This is the nickname that my brother gave me long before the brand became known in the USSR / Russia. Bo, then she did not even come into the world. Damn, it was necessary to patent.
            Here, some unfortunate scribblers of comments for this nickname almost called for me to be burned at the stake. I think this is familiar to you as well))
      2. +6
        11 October 2019 21: 36
        Quote: Santa Fe
        The USSR has never boasted of what it does not have. He did not say what he HAS. Therefore, they believed him even without words.

        For that good
      3. 0
        14 October 2019 00: 58
        There are technologies on the Internet. You are simply not looking for them.
    3. KCA
      0
      11 October 2019 23: 27
      Do we know much about the development of science and technology in the military-industrial complex? My two comrades, graduates of MEPhI, were not at all discreetly inviting me to work for the war, I was promised a salary by PPC, they refused, I achieved a lot of science, but these are my friends, but how many went to work in the war?
  4. +1
    11 October 2019 18: 35
    It is important that they have benefited from the land and minimally sea borders of the state.
  5. 0
    11 October 2019 18: 44
    Yeah. It is enough to know where the correction zones are and to catch there all flying Poseidons. And it’s impossible to hide oceanographic works of this scale ... Profit.
    Oleg can still start writing about tanks? ....
    1. +1
      12 October 2019 00: 07
      An unmanned vehicle in conjunction with a diesel submarine will remove a dozen sites per month.
      And no one will know about it, if you do not become impudent.
      Naturally not on the shelf of the States.
      Yes, there is no need to adjust anything already. Extreme correction for 800-1000 km, and then the ANN will display with an accuracy of a hundred meters.
      1. 0
        14 October 2019 00: 59
        Tens of meters if not units of meters.
    2. +1
      12 October 2019 06: 45
      // Yeah. It is enough to know where the correction zones are and to catch there all flying Poseidons. And to hide oceanographic work of this scale is impossible ..//

      But how does the enemy know where these zones are?
      And hiding oceanographic work will not be necessary. Just imagine:
      There is our oceanographic ship across the Pacific Ocean. And all the way continuously scans the bottom. How can the adversary find out exactly which point of the 10 thousand kilometer route will be chosen to correct Poseidon?
      In general, most likely such seabed maps were created in Soviet times. Then a lot of effort was devoted to the study of the seabed and many ships were involved.
      And in general, most commentators have a misconception that they need a detailed map of the bottom. This is not true. For example, if Poseidon determines its position in the zone where the ridge is located, it is enough to have accurate data on the location of the three highest peaks of this ridge in this zone. Detailed mapping of the entire area is redundant. Three prominent points are enough.
      1. 0
        12 October 2019 09: 26
        Quote: Serg4545
        How can the adversary find out exactly which point of the 10 thousand kilometer route will be chosen to correct Poseidon?

        Judging by the quote, you are absolutely not on the topic of the procedure for the production of oceanographic work. Because I’ll just say it. No, that's not it. In the first sections, there are not many. A sufficient level of dissection and the average gradient of geophysical fields is needed. And you can’t get by with one passage. We need systematic and lengthy measurements. And they can’t be hidden. This is by the way to that eagle that here about dieselyuha with drones carried nonsense too
        1. 0
          12 October 2019 09: 44
          Quote: Serg4545
          But how does the enemy know where these zones are?
          And hiding oceanographic work will not be necessary.

          Well, we know about their zones .... Including due to tracking their hydrographs
  6. The comment was deleted.
    1. +2
      11 October 2019 19: 00
      Quote from rudolf
      Navigation on the topography of the seabed has been used for a long time. We have less, Americans have more. They patrol areas SSBNs are cut in the areas of dominance of the Navy and are well studied up and down, navigation along the terrain is normal. But this is possible in very limited areas.

      As I see it, it’s enough to lay a route for the torpedo and enter it into memory, albeit with several options for deviations. Navigation is not the most insoluble task, but a nuclear installation of such power is really a problem ..
      1. -1
        11 October 2019 21: 24
        Or maybe Rosatom was able to solve this problem - some kind of supercritical reactor with a light alloy cooler based on Tin or even Mercury, a turbo-blade drive - a generator and without a step drive to the shafts.
        1. +7
          11 October 2019 22: 42
          Maybe he could. But to use such a hi-tech and a breakthrough in the energy sector only in a one-time torpedo and nowhere else - on the same ship or boat - this is nonsense. This is the most powerful argument against Poseidon. He is stronger than the problems of active sonar depths of the sea ...
          1. -1
            12 October 2019 11: 20
            This development is new - and it is only for the military, it is not applicable in the civilian sector.
            1. +1
              12 October 2019 20: 07
              Why not applicable? Why only for the military.

              For a surface or submarine fleet, this would generally be a holy grail. If he was ...

              Like a cheap and simple air jet engine for aviation ...
              1. -2
                12 October 2019 22: 24
                "For the surface or submarine fleet, this would generally be the holy grail. If it were ..." Firstly, we have other projects of nuclear installations for the nuclear icebreaker fleet and there are no other projects of ships with nuclear reactors, and secondly, you need a nuclear reactor and thirdly, this super-powerful supercritical reactor is most likely short-lived, from the moment of launch, up to 30 days worked and collapsed, this will greatly reduce the cost of production, the consumption of expensive materials in the production of such a reactor.
                1. 0
                  17 October 2019 15: 22
                  A nuclear reactor for aircraft in the USSR ALREADY BEEN SET and these aircraft have successfully flown, and the one announced by the President of the Kyrgyz Republic with unlimited flight range can exist EXCLUSIVELY when using a nuclear engine on it.
                  1. 0
                    19 October 2019 22: 00
                    At Burevestnik, there is an open-loop JAWR accelerating with the help of a turbojet engine the transition of the circuit assembly to a precritical state is cooling by the oncoming air flow and air-fuel mixture at a speed of 1000 kilometers per hour. The reactors that were put on planes, along with the whole stray, weighed several tens of tons - the path to aviation for nuclear reactors is closed, no country in the world will give certificates for airworthiness.
    2. -2
      11 October 2019 22: 40
      Quote from rudolf
      Terrain navigation involves the operation of the active HAC / GAS tract, and this unmasks the device.

      If there is a normal gravimeter then no. True to map AST is even more hemorrhoids than in depths
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. 0
          12 October 2019 08: 34
          Repeatedly. Have you tried to read the instructions for IE?
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. 0
              12 October 2019 09: 41
              Quote from rudolf
              that would be a real benefit from the gravimeter, the device itself should be with a minimum of errors and marine gravimetric maps in the presence of

              What did I say?
              Quote: Alceers
              normal gravimeter

              Quote: Alceers
              map AST is even more hemorrhoids
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. -1
                  12 October 2019 10: 38
                  Quote from rudolf
                  That there are five-year plans for gravimetric surveys of the bottom of the oceans,

                  Exists. Only. "Where is Zin's money?"
                  Quote from rudolf
                  came as a young KENG,

                  Maybe still ИEng
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                    1. 0
                      12 October 2019 11: 15
                      Primary position? There are no ships with a GK as part of the NK so that the primary position is not an engineer.
                      1. The comment was deleted.
                      2. 0
                        20 October 2019 16: 50
                        Nope, they didn’t put him in the composition of the Tax Code. We also did not have an engineer, but he was.
            2. +1
              20 October 2019 12: 43
              Quote from rudolf
              In the White, Barents was still some kind of sense, on the BS - close to zero.

              similarly on BS on Pacific Fleet (above the abyssal plains)
        2. +1
          20 October 2019 12: 42
          Quote from rudolf
          The most useless thing in the navigation system.

          well, not useless, according to "efficiency" (efficiency / cost) - "like a steam locomotive";)
    3. 0
      12 October 2019 08: 01
      // For Poseidon, this is unrealistic. Terrain navigation involves the operation of the active HAC / GAS tract, and this unmasks the device.

      Heck. Here again I met a statement, such as:
      Poseidon alone against all of NATO.
      It is pointless to talk about weapons without realizing the conditions under which they will be used.
      And Poseidon will be used immediately after more than 2000 warheads of our ballistic missiles go through the States. Can you imagine what chaos will happen after that?
      And even if someone can detect the short-term impulse of Poseidon and more or less accurately determine the place (which is already unlikely). And if a ship / helicopter / plane arrives at this place almost immediately, within 30 minutes, it will discover an empty ocean. Because Poseidon waved 30 kilometers in 100 minutes.
      That is, even under the most favorable conditions for the enemy, he will not be able to catch Poseidon.
      1. 0
        17 October 2019 15: 29
        And why after 2000 Poseidon warheads? And where does it start from? Or will the warheads fly in only one direction, will we sit and smile? Can you imagine what chaos will be going on in our country after a retaliatory (or preventive, it won't matter to us) strike? Who will give the order? Who will launch this Poseidon? Why spend millions on it now, if it is applied when we are all led by the president to paradise easily and without Poseidon?
    4. +1
      12 October 2019 10: 25
      Quote from rudolf
      For Poseidon, this is unrealistic. Terrain navigation involves the operation of the active HAC / GAS tract, and this unmasks the device.

      But not a permanent job, is it? A short-term activation of the SAC is sufficient for the device when the estimated correction time is reached. How much does a modern GAS need to get a bottom "picture"?
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. 0
          20 October 2019 16: 45
          Not at all! No GAS bottom image does not give out! We need a multi-beam echo sounder, we do not let them out. You probably determined your colleague by depth, I don’t even know how the device can do it! lol
      2. 0
        12 October 2019 10: 35
        Hee ... And how, without correction, determine that it needs to be turned on?
        1. +1
          12 October 2019 10: 42
          According to the timer. The clock has not been canceled. Measuring the speed of movement in water is not a complicated matter.
          1. -1
            12 October 2019 10: 47
            Yeah what are you !? Really !? But I didn’t guess ...
            PS How much will the maximum SKP of a place with k = 0,12 and P = 0,997 reach 1 km?
            PPP Do not carry nonsense if not in the subject ...
            1. +1
              12 October 2019 10: 56
              Now formulate the question without technical show-offs. The letters k and P are a little more than the dofiga of quantities and parameters. Or was the task crowing? wink
              1. 0
                12 October 2019 10: 59
                For any navigator, I gave the source data more than enough. K-reckoning coefficient P- given probability, consider. However, I have already made sure that you are absolutely not in the subject.
                1. The comment was deleted.
                  1. 0
                    13 October 2019 09: 46
                    And I wrote all the same above, justifying the need for control points by themselves. And I completely agree with you. True, the creators of the CD are coping with this, and even the creators of missiles for Iskander coped. And the latter, please note, deliberately "breaks" its trajectory by introducing random deviations into it. And nevertheless it is able to correct the course based on photographs of the area. The route is divided into rectilinear sections from point to point, and modern gyroscopic systems are quite accurate to maintain a rectilinear direction.

                    Or am I wrong?
                    1. -1
                      13 October 2019 10: 15
                      Quote: abc_alex
                      Or am I wrong?

                      Exactly...
                      1. -1
                        13 October 2019 10: 25
                        Quote: Alceers

                        Exactly...



                        Stay on the line. Your call is very important to us. lol
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                      3. +1
                        14 October 2019 08: 53
                        Or try to bring the carrier ship as close to the attacked coast as possible to minimize the errors of the ANN apparatus.


                        Given how tightly the Americans graze Kamchatka (and the military unit under this miracle will be there), this option can be safely discarded.

                        But even if you could bring the media ...

                        Our people are simple, dark, I have not heard about Juan de Fuca, nor about the harbor of San Francisco, they live with the thought that American megacities are along the coast in a ruler, and the open ocean begins right behind the edge of the water.

                        Ага.

                        So I imagine the passage of a nuclear torpedo to Bangor. Or how is it there now.
                      4. The comment was deleted.
                      5. -1
                        13 October 2019 11: 13
                        Quote from rudolf
                        In addition to the ANN, the Iskander uses an optical seeker.

                        Indisputably. But the principle of operation of the optical seeker is based on comparing the image of the underlying surface with pre-made photos (evil tongues claim that even google-ups are suitable). That is, there is an orientation algorithm, it has been worked out. It is required to get a "picture".

                        Quote from rudolf
                        What picture will they give in one pass? The distance to the bottom and, at best, the gradients of slopes, slopes of underwater hills, troughs, etc. from the work of the CEO. About any 3D pictures and speech can not be.


                        Is photography 3d? Iskander is also guided by a flat picture, using formalizing algorithms for flat image processing. I'm sure you've seen how machine vision works, you don't need a 3d model, a formalized "flat" picture is enough. The algorithm can look like this: the camera enters the shooting area. The zone was chosen so that on both sides of the device there were reliably distinguishable landmarks at such a distance that it would be possible to get between them by the gyroscope and they were guaranteed to be visible. He takes pictures to his left and to his right, receives two flat pictures "to the left along the side" and "to the right along the side". Highlights landmarks. And at the location of the landmarks in the frame, it corrects the position in space. No 3d.



                        Quote from rudolf
                        If everything was so simple, then pilots would not be needed, made a 3D picture of the fairway and voila! Alas.

                        So the pilot is cheaper than the equipment of all GAS vessels and systems for automatic posting along the bottom topography.


                        P.S. Iskander flew and got where it needed when GLONASS was not working yet. For him, this is an option.
                      6. -1
                        13 October 2019 11: 32
                        Quote: abc_alex
                        The algorithm can look like this: the camera enters the shooting area. The zone was chosen so that on both sides of the device there were reliably distinguishable landmarks at such a distance that it would be possible to get between them by the gyroscope and they were guaranteed to be visible. He takes pictures to his left and right, gets two flat pictures "to the left along the side" and "to the right along the side". Highlights landmarks. And at the location of the landmarks in the frame, it corrects the position in space. No 3d.

                        You can’t even imagine how incompetent you are ....
                        and most importantly, you can’t even understand that you’ve been talking about it for a couple of days.
                      7. -1
                        14 October 2019 10: 41
                        Quote: Alceers
                        You can’t even imagine how incompetent you are ....
                        and most importantly, you can’t even understand that you’ve been talking about it for a couple of days.

                        Well, so explain without show-offs and raids. Where am I wrong and what. And so far, apart from senseless criticism, I have not seen anything from you.
  7. +10
    11 October 2019 19: 08
    Even the most severe storm is unable to disturb the calm of the deep sea. The movement of the underwater vehicle is associated with less perturbations than the low-altitude flight of the RS in the atmosphere.

    You can not read further - the author forgot about such an interesting thing as currents. And they affect the torpedo much stronger than the winds and Co. on a cruise missile
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. 0
      11 October 2019 20: 25
      Andrei, for the most part, he is an optimistic theorist, and you are a practitioner. Something new always appears in the dispute between theory and practice. For a dream is always necessary in order to know where to go, having estimated strengths and means. Progress must be pulled both in front and in the back. I liked Oleg’s answer to my comment a little higher.
    3. 0
      12 October 2019 08: 13
      // You can’t read further - the author forgot about such an interesting thing as currents. And they affect the torpedo much stronger than the winds and Co. on a cruise missile //

      Hm. And we have many currents at a depth of 1 km?
      And even if such a flow occurs, unlike the winds, the currents move in the same direction at the same speed. This means that how much this hypothetical course will change the course of Poseidon can be calculated in advance. And again, amend the motion in advance.
      1. +2
        12 October 2019 08: 21
        Quote: Serg4545
        unlike winds, currents move in the same direction at the same speed.

        How is everything simple for you ..

        Sea currents - constant or periodic flows in the thickness of the oceans and seas. Distinguish between constant, periodic and irregular currents; surface and underwater, warm and cold currents. Depending on the cause of the current, wind and density currents are distinguished.
        1. -1
          12 October 2019 08: 26
          At a depth of 1 km?
          1. +2
            12 October 2019 09: 10
            Quote: Serg4545
            At a depth of 1 km?

            And not only
            Types of sea currents by depth
            The movement of water masses occurs not only in the surface layers of the sea, but also in its depths. On this basis, the types of sea currents are:

            Surface - pass in the upper layers of the ocean, up to 15 m deep. The main factor in their occurrence is the wind. It also affects the direction and speed of their movement.
            Deep - occur in the water column, below the surface, but above the bottom. Their flow rate is lower than that of surface ones.
            Bottom currents, as the name implies, flow in close proximity to the seabed. Due to the constantly frictional forces of soil, their speed is usually low
            1. -1
              12 October 2019 09: 26
              And where is the kilometer depth here?
              Bottom currents?
              So the bottom happens and 100 meters from the surface)
              The mechanism of formation of currents is actually the same as the formation of winds.
              Part of the ocean’s water heats more, part less. The density of water is changing. As a result, masses of water go deep and vice versa, other masses of water go to the surface.
              The result of these movements are currents.
              Naturally, the closer to the surface, the more intense heat transfer. And the more likely the formation of currents.
              At a depth of 1 km, the temperature is stable.
              1. +1
                12 October 2019 09: 38
                Quote: Serg4545
                the same as the formation of winds.

                Go learn the dynamics of the ocean for 56 years .... Do not you
                1. -1
                  12 October 2019 09: 43
                  That is, to give examples of currents at a depth of 1 km, can not you?
                  Okay.
                  1. +4
                    12 October 2019 10: 19
                    Quote: Serg4545
                    That is, to give examples of currents at a depth of 1 km, can not you?
                    Okay.

                    For you personally

                    Major discoveries of ocean currents were made in the late 50s and in the second half of our century. We are talking about powerful deep currents in the Atlantic, Pacific and Indian oceans. More recently, it was believed that the currents in the depths of the waters have very low speeds. Modern methods of observation (using anchored buoys and floats of neutral buoyancy) have made it possible to establish that at depths of 1 meters non-periodic currents in some places reach 30 cm / s, and tidal currents even reach 50 cm / s. Instrumental observations have also shown that at depths of more than 1 thousand m, flow rates range from 5 to 15 cm / s. After a thorough study of the powerful oceanic currents of the Gulf Stream and Kuroshio, it was established that they retain their direction and speed to depths of 750-1500 m. The hypothesis was also confirmed that sufficiently strong currents should be observed under the largest currents of the World Ocean, directed in the opposite direction. Indeed, such currents were discovered - first of all, in the Atlantic Ocean near the Gulf Stream, and then in the Pacific near Kuroshio.

                    A more complex system of currents in the intermediate layers of the ocean - here there is a movement of water counterclockwise (in the Atlantic Ocean at a depth of 1,5-2 thousand m). At the same time, in the western part of the Atlantic Ocean, intermediate waters, moving from north to south, turn clockwise, creating a closed cycle. In the tropical zone of the Pacific Ocean at a depth of 100-300 m, the movement of water to the east prevails.

                    Many countries (USSR, USA, Japan, England, etc.) nowadays carry out numerous observations of currents - both superficial and deep. This made it possible to discover subsurface currents: Cromwell in the Pacific Ocean, Lomonosov in the Atlantic. During the 33rd voyage Vityaz (1960-1961), a strong current was discovered in the Indian Ocean at a depth of 1 thousand meters. Subsequently, it was named after the young Soviet scientist B. A. Tareev
                    .
              2. +2
                12 October 2019 10: 12
                I'm afraid that you have too simplistic and superficial view of such a complex phenomenon

                The formation of sea currents depends on a number of factors that have a complex effect on each other. All causes are conditionally divided into external and internal. The first include:

                The tidal gravitational impact of the sun and moon on our planet. As a result of these forces, not only daily ebbs and flows occur on the coast, but also steady movements of water volumes in the open ocean. Gravitational impact in one way or another affects the speed and direction of motion of all ocean currents.
                The effect of winds on the sea surface. Blowing for a long time in one direction of the wind (for example, trade winds) inevitably transfer part of the energy of the moving air masses and surface waters, dragging them along. This factor can cause the appearance of both temporary surface flows and steady movements of huge masses of water - the Passat (Equatorial) currents of the Atlantic, Pacific and Indian oceans.
                The difference in atmospheric pressure in different parts of the ocean, bending the surface of the water in the vertical direction. As a result, a difference in water level arises, and, as a result, sea currents form. This factor leads to the appearance of temporary and unstable surface flows.
                Sewage flows occur when sea level changes. A classic example is the Florida Current flowing from the Gulf of Mexico. The water level in the Gulf of Mexico is significantly higher than in the Sargasso Sea adjacent to it from the northeast due to the surge of water into the Gulf of the Caribbean. As a result, there is a stream rushing through the Strait of Florida, and giving rise to the famous Gulf Stream.
                Runoff from mainland coasts can also cause steady currents. As an example, one can cite powerful streams that arise at the mouths of large rivers - the Amazon, La Plata, Yenisei, Ob, Lena, and penetrate the open ocean hundreds of kilometers in the form of desalinated streams.
                types of currents of the oceans

                The internal factors include the uneven density of water volumes. For example, increased evaporation of moisture in the tropical and equatorial regions leads to a higher concentration of salts, and in regions of heavy rainfall, salinity, on the contrary, is lower. The density of water also depends on the level of salinity. Temperature also has an effect on density; in higher latitudes or in deeper layers, water is colder, and, therefore, denser
                .
      2. 0
        12 October 2019 10: 28
        Quote: Serg4545
        . This means that how much this hypothetical course will change the course of Poseidon can be calculated in advance. And again, amend the motion in advance.

        Will not work. Each torpedo is a unique physical object entering a mobile environment in unique conditions. In the calculations, vomiting will be + - state.
    4. 0
      12 October 2019 11: 46
      And if dear Andrey, does this magical device use other, unknown means of underwater navigation in general? For example, is guided by the echoes of nuclear explosions in the United States, or something else?
  8. +8
    11 October 2019 19: 32
    As long as this miraculous torpedo reaches the goal, a ceasefire will come, and here we are like a bang.
  9. +10
    11 October 2019 19: 34
    Yes, this "Poseidon" nonsense ... I myself worked with side-scan locators and I know that a "beautiful picture" is obtained only after several passes over the object, and from different directions and strongly depends on the state of the sea, currents, temperature, etc. And normal the "vreska" map is obtained only in 4D ... those who are in the subject know what I mean, for the rest, read "hurray" articles about "no analogue" pasiydon ", which is very peaceful" and rejoice .. Yes
    1. +5
      11 October 2019 20: 45
      And PS: guys, those who are engaged in marine seismic geology will not let you lie that on EVERY ship that does 2D-3D seismic there is gravimetric equipment and people who maintain it, ... and they carry out a survey of the seabed along a completely different project than seismic (oil and gas), moreover, in favor of "certain services" and clearly not Russian and not "peaceful". What, nobody knows this in Russian "certain circles"? wink
      1. NKT
        0
        12 October 2019 09: 48
        The basis of 2D-3D seismic, that is terrestrial, that is marine, the principle is the same, the fixation of reflected waves. Using a gravimeter is just another method and, the best result, combining seismic, gravity and magnetic surveys.
    2. 0
      12 October 2019 05: 00
      This only suggests that the principle by which the Poseidon's navigation is carried out is clearly not hydroacoustic. There is no person in it for any kind of information processing and there is no place for good equipment. And there are so many things in the sonar picture that the mind breaks down.
      Pictures from Paul Allen’s yacht were clearly made in software with a few scans.
    3. -4
      12 October 2019 08: 24
      // Yes, this "Poseidon" nonsense ... I myself worked with side-scan locators and I know that a "beautiful picture" is obtained only after several passes over the object, and from different directions and strongly depends on the state of the sea, currents, temperature, etc. /

      And why is there a "pretty picture" to determine the location? And 2D-3D?
      The exact location of the three highest points in this area is enough.
      The rest is redundant.
  10. 0
    11 October 2019 19: 35
    Dear! Many people forget that the Poseidon system is not just a torpedo, if I may say so. Poseidon is primarily intended to destroy major coastal infrastructure. That can well be calculated on the bottom maps, which are compiled with the help of our deep acoustic stations like "Losharik" The number of these objects is not so great. And as a rule, they are located in zones of volcanic activity. This is simply a newly revived project of A. Sakharov called "Lace"
  11. 0
    11 October 2019 19: 36
    Hunter Poseidon is an unmanned aerial vehicle. You also need to place them on the basis of a photon computer.
  12. +4
    11 October 2019 19: 47
    The currents may well reach kilometer depth.
    After all, it will be necessary to cross the Gulf Stream at least, and as a maximum, noticeable time to swim in the zone of its operation.
    The capabilities of the inertial system are questionable.
    The work of the echo sounder - Poseidon will be heard very far away.
    However, it will already be heard at such a speed.
    And to make speed less, increase volume to ensure buoyancy.
    And that means even more is required to increase the power of the power plant.
    The example of a destroyer and an aircraft carrier is still tense, these are not completely underwater objects, the hydrodynamics are different, their capacities are more likely to differ by two and a half to three times, Arly Burke 105000 at 32 knots, Nimitz 260 at 000 knots.
    Many questions arise.
    Especially regarding navigation on the way to the explosion site.
    The most effective explosion, after all, is inside the base, but how can one get there exactly?
    Firstly, no one will let the bottom research there, secondly, anti-submarine networks can create a serious problem and either prevent them from being undermined at all, or cause them to explode in a non-optimal place, where the effect of undermining the charge will be noticeably reduced.

    It should also be borne in mind that if there is no means of counteracting Poseidon right now (however, SOSUS is very suitable for this, as I understand it, at least for detection), then this is because they are not needed, and if necessary, it is quite possible to create deep-sea torpedoes and deep-sea discharged sonar buoys, increase the number of PLO aircraft (they are useful even without Poseidon).
    Moreover, most of the newly created is perfect for dealing with submarines.
    Of course, nothing is known exactly yet, but we can say that there is no navigation system capable of providing an accurate exit to an alien base at a very large distance without satellite navigation, and there are currently no power plants with the required indicators, in any case, about their existence it’s not known, and these are not the things that can be invented at one time, there should be an experience of application and correction in connection with this experience, something would have leaked anyway.
    1. +1
      11 October 2019 21: 27
      It doesn’t matter if there is Poseidon or not. The main thing is that the Americans believe. And they already believed and now they will start spending money ...
      1. +3
        11 October 2019 22: 14
        what to spend? To PLO?
        So their admirals from such a horror story are delighted. How else to get money out of Congress, if not to fight such horror.
        A PLO and other applications there ....
        1. +1
          12 October 2019 20: 16
          So the reorganization of SOSUS has already begun, google DRAPES system.

          We helped the American admirals.
    2. -1
      12 October 2019 08: 34
      // It must also be borne in mind that if there is no means of counteracting Poseidon now (however, SOSUS is very suitable for this, as I understand it, at least for detection), then this is because there is no need for them, and if necessary it is possible to create them- deep-sea torpedoes and deep-sea discharged sonar buoys, increase the number of PLO aircraft (they are useful even without Poseidon) .//

      Answered a similar remark above. I will copy the answer here.

      Heck. Here again I met a statement, such as:
      Poseidon alone against all of NATO.
      It is pointless to talk about weapons without realizing the conditions under which they will be used.
      And Poseidon will be used immediately after more than 2000 warheads of our ballistic missiles go through the States. Can you imagine what chaos will happen after that?
      And even if someone can detect the short-term impulse of Poseidon and more or less accurately determine the place (which is already unlikely). And if a ship / helicopter / plane arrives at this place almost immediately, within 30 minutes, it will discover an empty ocean. Because Poseidon waved 30 kilometers in 100 minutes.
      That is, even under the most favorable conditions for the enemy, he will not be able to catch Poseidon.
      1. NKT
        +2
        12 October 2019 09: 52
        And why then do we need Poseidon when there are more than 2000 warheads in the States? What will he “finish” there?
        1. -3
          12 October 2019 10: 30
          In my opinion, obviously.
          What those 2000 warheads cannot destroy.
          After all, you have no questions, why, in the presence of ballistic missiles, do we have cruise missiles with special warheads and nuclear free-falling bombs?
          Means are needed.
          1. +1
            12 October 2019 20: 18
            2000 warheads will destroy absolutely everything in the states, including all coastal cities, and kill about 60 millions of people at the time of the attack and one hundred more during the first year.

            Why also Poseidon?
            1. +1
              14 October 2019 07: 07
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              Why also Poseidon?

              So that the remnants of American "democracy" live out their days somewhere in the depths of the North American continent and do not even think of being pulled off somewhere in Australia. The option is actually considered only one - the United States attacks first, which means that the patient who is potentially dangerous to others must be reliably isolated. Cobalt shell to help.
              1. 0
                14 October 2019 08: 38
                1. There will no longer be any democracy, there will be no state and there will not be those people who arranged all this. They will be killed, or so to speak, on the way to this.
                2. The cobalt shell will destroy the last surviving Russians, as well as hundreds of millions of people in neutral countries, including more or less friendly towards the Russian Federation. Why do you need this?
                1. 0
                  14 October 2019 13: 28
                  1. The historical experience of mankind suggests that there are always plenty of fools at the fair, at least on their forehead, at least on the forehead, free vacancies are always engaged in someone.
                  2. The danger of the spread of contamination is somewhat exaggerated and, moreover, in the context of a global increase in the background in the Northern Hemisphere and local pollution from destroyed nuclear power plants, flying with Atlantic cyclones will not be so different from the "natural background".
                  3. There will be no neutral countries in this war. Nuclear conflict is the global level. The NATO countries are certainly not neutral to us, the pseudo-neutral of the Western bloc, which host US-NATO infrastructure and pump resources there, too.
                  No, really. The whole world in dust means dust. Otherwise, bullshit is all a nuclear weapon, not a deterrent. I assure you, after the question of survival, the second thing that will bite you from the inside is the question of revenge, a bloody and merciless one.
                  1. 0
                    14 October 2019 15: 53
                    You have some strange abnormal view of the world in my opinion.
                    1. 0
                      15 October 2019 07: 13
                      I have a normal view of the world (with a small letter) and the World. You just confuse the world with a global nuclear conflict, and the latter with the "limited local use of nuclear weapons" promoted by the Americans. There will be no restrictions it is almost total and mutual destruction. Your pacifism in multiples of collateral damage will simply be lost.
                      1. 0
                        15 October 2019 12: 11
                        You completely ignore the logic in which important decisions are made.

                        There is no such nation in the world whose goal would be self-destruction. This does not make nuclear war unbelievable, but it will give it a certain character, if it does happen.
                      2. +1
                        15 October 2019 14: 41
                        Nuclear weapons have only one logic of use - inflicting unacceptable damage on the enemy. All. No "limited applications", only this defines the nature of this global conflict between the two nuclear countries. Turn the other cheek, Greenpeace and human rights don't work here.
                      3. -1
                        15 October 2019 14: 45
                        Nuclear weapons have only one logic of use - inflicting unacceptable damage on the enemy. All. No "limited applications", only this defines the nature of this global conflict between the two nuclear countries.


                        This is nothing more than your speculation.
                      4. +1
                        15 October 2019 14: 58
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        This is nothing more than your speculation.

                        For conjectures google 1948 "Trojan" and "Dropshot". Over the years, only the names changed, the power of nuclear weapons grew and the means of its delivery developed. And give up hope, everyone who enters here. Any reflections on the limited use of nuclear weapons are criminal, IMHO.
                      5. 0
                        15 October 2019 15: 07
                        And are these all the nuclear war plans you've heard about?
                      6. 0
                        16 October 2019 11: 30
                        Is it really so important for you in your invented world to know the degree of my personal knowledge? In your country, Russia will be silent on a nuclear rag according to the Orthodox tradition, in the same place there are children, indecent civilians and Red Book endangered animals over the hill. Why would you destroy this idyll? I feel that you don't need arguments. Therefore, I see no reason to argue with you. Sleep well.
                      7. -1
                        16 October 2019 12: 20
                        In your country, Russia will be silent on a nuclear rag according to the Orthodox tradition


                        I never claimed this, it appeared in your head.
          2. 0
            12 October 2019 20: 27
            And the Americans at this time clap their hands and wait for these 2000 warheads and DO NOT DO ANYTHING !!!! They do not have the same warheads!
  13. 0
    11 October 2019 19: 48
    Very interesting, unscientific and informative article. Thanks to the author. Well, the fact that the data does not match the real TTX is not scary. Time does not stand still. What yesterday seemed fantastic - today the kids are flying into the sky. What today is considered contrary to the laws of physics - tomorrow it will float, fly, and at the same time not break anything ... like that.
  14. 0
    11 October 2019 20: 02
    Well, suppose the orientation is on the seabed and at a speed of 100 knots. What is the maximum diving depth? IMHO More than 1000 m - I doubt very much whether it will crush to hell with my grandmother or I will not give 100 knots, the density of the medium is high. And if the depth is less, then I don’t understand how TERCOM will get an image of the bottom, if already at 300 meters the pitch is pitch-black than to highlight? Enlighten who is in the know.
    1. +2
      11 October 2019 20: 39
      Ultrasonic Fish Finder. A common thing for underwater measurements and filming.
      At only 100 nodes, the quality of robots is doubtful
      1. +2
        11 October 2019 20: 52
        Well, if it’s still 3000 meters below it, it won’t work, or scan at an angle so that the reflected ultrasound arrives at the device’s location, and for this you need to know at least + - the distance to the bottom and the density of the medium, because the salinity of the water in different layers different ... Yes, and the roar from the echo sounder is decent ... Brrr ... The farther into the forest the thicker the partisans
        1. +1
          11 October 2019 20: 57
          I also doubt that this is possible, especially since scanning the site for the purpose of determining the terrain at such a speed. The sound in water has a different speed than the radio signal
    2. The comment was deleted.
      1. +1
        11 October 2019 21: 26
        I did not mean pressure, I meant density. Since more salty water is denser, it drops down. Well, of course, its currents mix, but that’s physics.
    3. 0
      11 October 2019 21: 32
      The submarine was not crushed by Fin - and it sank more than 1000.
      1. 0
        11 October 2019 21: 46
        This project was in one copy with a max depth of 1250, except for the notorious "Komsomolets", there was no more submarine of this project, but here they are thinking of a series, oh I don't know ... It would be good if everything was fine
        1. 0
          12 October 2019 11: 22
          We compared the inhabited submarine with an unmanned vehicle.
  15. 0
    11 October 2019 20: 35
    The detail of these images is conclusive evidence in favor of seabed mapping systems.

    It certainly is, but the question is how many passages field did these synthesized images get?
    Such detailed pictures are usually obtained only after repeated scanning and from different directions.
    So, in order to provide Poseidon with such maps, you first need to send a whole herd of Poseidon surveyors into the ocean to scan the bottom? This is a huge scope of work, even if you limit yourself to a few main routes. In any case, the "roar" of the GAS of these "surveyors" will draw the enemy's attention to our activity in these directions and force us to take countermeasures. Farewell to surprise (unless ours already started 20 years ago - missions of top-secret "loshkariks", etc.).
    1. 0
      11 October 2019 20: 40
      no matter what a top-secret mission is, you can’t hide the work of the CEO, you can hear it from afar
      1. 0
        12 October 2019 12: 54
        This is exactly what I had in mind (the "roar" of the GAS of these "surveyors" will draw the enemy's attention to our activity. ") It is simply logical to assume that, before declaring the combat potential of such a" wunderwaffe ", the infrastructure of use should have been prepared in advance, without which it is almost useless (otherwise, it's like saying "We made the world's best locomotive" without worrying about rails, bridges and tunnels).
  16. +7
    11 October 2019 20: 47
    Myth No.1. It is impossible to make a map along the entire route of Poseidon
    Indeed, nothing is impossible in this. The General Bathymetric Chart of the Oceans (GEBCO) project is under the auspices of the International Hydrographic Organization and the Intergovernmental Oceanographic Commission of UNESCO. Translated as "universal bathymetric map of the oceans." Since 2017, together with the Nippon Foundation, the Seabed 2030 program has been carried out, the goal of which is to create a high-resolution digital bathymetric map of the seabed of the World Ocean by 2030. Today, such a map is available at about 15% of the bottom.
    All further questions should be addressed to the hydrographic service of the Navy.
    No hydrographic service of the Navy is able to independently carry out such work. Therefore, it is worth waiting ten years and the map for Poseidon can be downloaded from the network. All the same, this problem could not be solved independently and quietly before.
    1. +6
      11 October 2019 21: 19
      Myth No.2. Sonar is not able to provide the necessary accuracy of scanning the bottom
      Sonar is able to provide the necessary accuracy of bathymetric measurements.
      Ocean Infinity, which conducts bathymetry as part of the Seabed 2030 program, uses up to eight autonomous underwater vehicles (AUV) at the same time in combination with eight unmanned surface vessels (USV).

      These are Kongsberg AUV HUGIN underwater vehicles in the hangar of the SEABED CONSTRUCTOR.
      Each of them has a maximum immersion depth of 6000 m and is equipped with a side-scan sonar, multi-beam echo sounder, bottom profilograph (SBP), magnetometer, CTD profilograph and HD camera (from CathX Ocean) and additional sensors: turbidity, methane and a CathX laser.
      1. 0
        11 October 2019 21: 28
        At 6000, the pressure is just monstrous, it is very interesting how they dealt with it.
        1. +4
          11 October 2019 21: 51
          The Trieste bathyscaphe gondola was designed for a diving depth of 11 m.
          1. +4
            11 October 2019 21: 55
            But she did not go at this depth at a speed of 100 knots.
            1. +2
              11 October 2019 22: 18
              But she did not go at this depth at a speed of 100 knots.
              Great comment.
              1. +1
                11 October 2019 22: 52
                I have the only option for positioning - it is ascent to a certain depth with electric noise with minimal noise, the release of a beacon and the passive acquisition of coordinates by satellite. The product itself must be filled with some liquid to equalize the pressure, and the control units and charge are in an egg-shaped armor
                1. +2
                  11 October 2019 23: 00
                  It is not possible to obtain passive coordinates from a satellite. In order to get the coordinates from the satellite, the beacon must find the satellite and establish a connection with it;
                  get the almanac and save it in memory; receive ephemeris from the satellite and save them; find three more satellites and establish communication with them, receive ephemeris from them;
                  Only after that calculate the coordinates using the ephemeris and the location of the satellites.
                  1. +1
                    11 October 2019 23: 10
                    Sorry, but you are not quite right in this matter.
                    Receivers of satellite navigation systems work only on reception.
                    Including when downloading the almanac, which, incidentally, can be downloaded previously.
                    The almanac has information about all the satellites at the moment.
                    1. +2
                      11 October 2019 23: 21
                      I put it a little incorrectly. By "passively" I meant getting ready coordinates from the satellite, not the work of the navigator for transmission.
                      1. 0
                        11 October 2019 23: 37
                        Well, yes, you don’t need to transfer his coordinates to him. He was not announced as being controlled along the entire trajectory of movement. They set the coordinates of the target on the carrier and ran for the combat mission.
                      2. +2
                        11 October 2019 23: 38
                        Will it be a straight line, or zigzags?
                      3. +1
                        11 October 2019 23: 40
                        Well, do not scuffle, sucked already all the options in comments)))
                  2. 0
                    11 October 2019 23: 14
                    That is, each smartphone has a mini-satellite transmitting antenna? The smartphone determines the coordinates even without the presence of cellular communications. Those. operates in passive mode, the positioning program on the smartphone contains the characteristics of each satellite of the positioning system with reference to time, i.e. where and at what time this satellite is located at. I do not like it that way, at least according to the map of the starry sky and the declination of the polar star or in the southern cross)))
                    1. +2
                      11 October 2019 23: 27
                      also not entirely true.
                      Ephemeris, the trajectory of the movement of satellites, are constantly updated according to the data of special stations on Earth, and all of them come together in almanacs. Each of the satellites transmits this almanac, your receiver in the smartphone receives it - this is information about the positioning of specific satellites at a given time.
                      Reception of the almanac from the satellite is relatively slow, in order to speed up, you can use the mobile communication towers - they also constantly transmit this almanac, but faster.
                      1. 0
                        11 October 2019 23: 29
                        I do not know. He wrote as a layman, and not special in navigation, from his own experience. The only thing I know for sure is that time must be synchronized + - 1 minute, otherwise it will be sent to the Amazon
                      2. +4
                        11 October 2019 23: 37
                        the satellite at every moment of time, except for the almanac, transmits a signal of the exact time - the satellite has a very accurate clock and its own code.
                        when your receiver receives time signals from several satellites, he, knowing their location from the almanac, finds your location, comparable to the time it took the signal from each satellite to reach the receiver.
                        that is, you receive a signal of the same time from different satellites at different times, the receiver knows the location of the satellites themselves from the almanac, and from this data it calculates your location.
                        The exact time in the smartphone is generally not needed for this, but perhaps there are some features of specific smartphones.
                      3. 0
                        11 October 2019 23: 46
                        The most reliable is the sextant and compAS (albeit electronic))))
                      4. +1
                        11 October 2019 23: 50
                        somehow accidentally got into a sailor, at the classes of future navigators I saw a sextant, lay there, but I don’t know how to decorate or to use it.
                        and even more so, I’m not sure that navigators really use it smile
                      5. +1
                        12 October 2019 09: 51
                        Quote: Avior
                        and even more so, I’m not sure that navigators really use it

                        Civilians generally do not use anything other than ECDIS
                      6. 0
                        12 October 2019 20: 32
                        The GPS module, in addition to coordinates, shows speed, altitude, exact time and date, as far as I remember.
                2. -2
                  12 October 2019 08: 57
                  // I have the only option for positioning - it’s ascent on electric traction to a certain depth with minimal noise, the release of a beacon and the passive acquisition of coordinates by satellite. The product itself must be filled with some liquid to equalize the pressure, and the control units and charge are in an egg-shaped armor //

                  I put you a plus.
                  Itself some time ago expressed a similar idea.
                  It’s only wiser for Poseidon not to swim, but directly from a kilometer deep, to release a pop-up buoy the size of a baby ball. Get wire information with coordinates.
                  And it’s also wiser to make such buoys disposable. After receiving the information, cut the wire and move on. Several buoys to determine coordinates in several places on the route and truncated.
          2. +3
            11 October 2019 22: 43
            Trieste is not a submarine
            I hope you understand the difference between a boat and a bathyscaphe, they also look like a plane and a balloon

            The submarine can repeatedly change depth over the course of a day, sink and float to the surface. The strength of the hull is not a limitation of the depth of immersion, the problem is blowing the tanks at pressures above 150 bar (this corresponds to 1500 m of depth - the limit for modern technology, the calculation for Komsomolets is 1250 m).
            1. +2
              11 October 2019 22: 49
              I hope you understand the difference between a boat and a bathyscaphe
              Your hopes are completely justified - I understand. My comment was precisely aimed at informing Dmitry Petrovich that strength can be ensured for any known depth.
              1. +1
                11 October 2019 22: 51
                Great, Undecim. many comments, I did not quite figure out who drowns for what position

                In any case, the hull is a solvable issue, but no one mentioned the displacement of water from ballast tanks
                1. 0
                  11 October 2019 23: 05
                  And what does the inhabited underwater vehicle and uninhabited? Deep-sea fish do not have ballast tanks.
                  1. +3
                    11 October 2019 23: 24
                    Do you think that a reactor can also be placed in an unpressurized case?
                    1. 0
                      11 October 2019 23: 51
                      It all depends on its type. The working environment of different types of reactors is different from each other. The only similarity is very high temperatures and pressure, if you have learned to equalize external pressure with internal, then this is super.
                      1. +2
                        11 October 2019 23: 56
                        And what type of reactor must be in order for it to function in water?
                      2. 0
                        12 October 2019 00: 03
                        I did not write about water. I wrote about liquid and only as an assumption. About the propulsion compartment of the mover is generally a separate song. At modern thermal power plants, superheated steam has a temperature of about 500 degrees and a pressure of hundreds of atmospheres. And the reactor gives even more and the contour of the outer shell of the reactor can be made adjustable according to these characteristics depending on the external pressure
                      3. +2
                        12 October 2019 00: 16
                        Supercritical pressure turbines - 230 kg / cm3000 Pressure at a depth of 309 m - XNUMX kg / cmXNUMX
                      4. 0
                        12 October 2019 00: 19
                        There are no depth characteristics for this product, and in general there are almost no data, only assumptions. I just voiced my opinion. Well, maybe enough already)))
                2. 0
                  12 October 2019 14: 17
                  What, is it really impossible to organize water displacement even with the help of some slowly burning gunpowders? To do something for a dozen surfacing ...
            2. 0
              11 October 2019 23: 25
              On positioning: it is quite possible that to certain depths, or terrain, for which there is a map of the seabed, positioning occurs by sonar, and then something else is applied. That is unknown to us and this is good (God forbid, pah-pah) surprise will be
      2. +5
        11 October 2019 21: 32

        Deck of the Seabed Constructor with USV surface drones placed on it.
        So providing the required scan accuracy is not a problem. But to create a sonar that will provide the necessary scanning accuracy at a speed of 100 knots, taking into account all the factors that affect this accuracy, this raises serious questions.
        1. +3
          11 October 2019 21: 44
          Quote: Undecim
          So ensuring the required scan accuracy is not a problem

          Judging by the data you have provided, this is another problem. Dozens of specialized surface and deep-sea vehicles. Which must descend to many kilometers depths more than once and not alone to scan. The mythical Poseidon has such a "horde" and such opportunities will not be a priori
          1. +3
            11 October 2019 21: 53
            I meant that obtaining the necessary permission is a matter to be resolved. Another point - by what means.
            1. +6
              11 October 2019 21: 56
              In the context of the topic under discussion ("Poseidon") is an unsolvable issue at this stage and in the foreseeable future. Therefore, I will still support the supporters that this is a Myth)
      3. +3
        11 October 2019 21: 34
        Quote: Undecim
        Myth № 2

        This UN project is just mapping the seabed or an analogue of underwater GPS? These are 2 huge differences.
        1. +2
          11 October 2019 21: 46
          I kind of wrote "create a high resolution digital bathymetric map of the seabed of the World Ocean."
          The UN does not create navigation systems. However, without a detailed map, creating a navigation system is not possible.
          1. +3
            11 October 2019 21: 49
            10 years, just to create a map. Create an underwater navigation system based on it, I'm afraid it is at least another 20 years). Between the appearance of accurate maps of the earth’s surface and GPS, many hundreds of years have passed and space exploration was required).
      4. +4
        11 October 2019 22: 16
        And all this will stand on Poseidon?
    2. -4
      11 October 2019 21: 56
      And why did they want to make 32 of them - here are 32 routes and a combination of tasks for the noise of groups of ships, say AUG, Russia has hydrographic vessels and they have been sailing for a long time, it is also possible to use civilian ships that go to the USA and other countries for covert mapping of the bottom ... And the torpedo will have to surface for a few minutes in order to accurately determine its location relative to the target distance and coordinates with the help of the GLONASS satellite - but in general, this system is more likely to be used for finishing off the weapon of the second wave that survived from the enemy after the exchange of nuclear strikes, , AUG, ports, surviving coastal population through extensive pollution of territories, long-lived decay products.
      1. +3
        11 October 2019 22: 14
        Russia has hydrographic vessels and they have been sailing for a long time, it is also possible to use civil vessels that go to the USA and other countries for secret bottom mapping.
        For starters, before you write, you would familiarize yourself with the question, find out how mapping is done, equipment, and software. Then they took an interest in the equipment of hydrographic vessels. You see, writing would not have been necessary.
  17. +1
    11 October 2019 20: 48
    Well, Comrade Kaptsov gives that land mapping is gorgeous today, I think no one will deny this is a large number of satellite imagery, but on the oceanography account there is a very big question, especially about depths below 1000 meters, everything is so piecewise studied that it was not for nothing that they compared victories in space over hundreds of thousands of kilometers and a dive literally 450 meters
  18. +1
    11 October 2019 21: 13
    And I want to believe that they could. In Soviet times, there were many people for whom work at the military industrial complex (the creation of technology, especially new types of weapons) was not a burden, but how creativity brought joy. And I hope there are still such people. Sometimes enthusiasts and enthusiastic people will come up with this ...
  19. -1
    11 October 2019 21: 17
    Everyone imagines himself a strategist, seeing the battle from the side
  20. -1
    11 October 2019 21: 23
    I certainly don’t understand anything in marine affairs, but the same penguins, whales and other marine mammals calmly swim thousands of kilometers during migration, so anything is possible
    1. +2
      11 October 2019 22: 28
      Quote: Graz
      I certainly don’t understand anything in marine affairs, but the same penguins, whales and other marine mammals calmly swim thousands of kilometers during migration, so anything is possible

      And do these mammals do this without surfacing?
      1. 0
        11 October 2019 22: 55
        so they pop up for breathing
        1. +4
          11 October 2019 23: 01
          And for "geolocation")
    2. +1
      11 October 2019 22: 42
      Quote: Graz
      whales and other marine mammals calmly swim thousands of kilometers during migration,


      Floating up The whales have a guard whale, which from time to time jumps out of the water, adjusting the course (I saw it with my own eyes).
  21. +4
    11 October 2019 21: 31
    Crushed stone M600! This is very brutal! I know the largest fraction 40-70! And the concrete M600 in the Mariana Trench, and even in the form of rubble ... I do not gloat, it just cut slightly)))
  22. 0
    11 October 2019 21: 46
    Sonars see the shadows of ships at the bottom of the ocean? Very funny.
    1. +1
      11 October 2019 22: 19
      As well as radars

      In fact, everything is much simpler - in a nutshell: if we could see the world in the radio range, we would see the "kingdom of crooked mirrors" - radio waves are reflected (partially absorbed, partially scattered) from any structure that has different electromagnetic parameters

      The "shadow" in radar images are areas of secondary signal reflection, while this strange "shadow" can be directed directly at the radiation source - as the wave will fall

      Deciphering such images (especially with a low resolution radar) is not an easy task, it requires ingenuity
  23. 0
    11 October 2019 21: 56
    Who knows why, in the sonar images presented in the article, underwater objects are lit and cast a shadow, as if this photo was in the light of a spotlight?
    1. +1
      11 October 2019 22: 19
      The detailed answer is just above.
    2. 0
      11 October 2019 22: 20
      as I understand it, an acoustic shadow.
      The image was compiled according to the sonar side view.
      Where the ultrasound did not get there are black spots that you see as a shadow.
    3. 0
      12 October 2019 20: 23
      This is a sonar shadow, always like that.
  24. -2
    11 October 2019 22: 17
    Kaptsov accused the First Persons of the State of lying. And you, readers, what are you thinking about?
    1. +4
      11 October 2019 22: 47
      You are a happy person, not to notice that these first persons are lying constantly, you probably live very easily.
      1. -1
        12 October 2019 18: 53
        In general, I’m talking about an article, and not generally general. I live normally, like everyone else.
        With best wishes.
        1. -1
          12 October 2019 20: 26
          Take a walk, Kolya! Think about the articles))
          1. 0
            13 October 2019 22: 13
            Do you think that you cut it?
    2. 0
      12 October 2019 20: 28
      Putin asked Shoigu to test a "new weapon" in April. Shoigu said that we will spend it in August. In the video about the future (at that time) laying of new frigates was.

      And where?

      Vladimir Vladimirovich’s habit of forgiving everyone begins to work very well against him.
  25. +3
    11 October 2019 22: 45
    Myth No.3. The bottom topography is subject to change
    Unfortunately, the author did not understand the question at all and focused only on the accumulation of bottom sediments and pushing all other processes into the far corner.
    To begin with, the topography (bathymetry) of the bottom of the World Ocean is less known than the topography of such planets of the solar system as Mercury, Venus, Mars and several satellite planets, including the Earth’s satellite (Moon). Accordingly, the processes of ocean floor formation are also far from a detailed study. Even the zones of underwater hydrothermal activity, which have a serious impact on the formation of the relief, are far from all known. As for volcanoes, scientists estimate that up to 80 percent of all terrestrial volcanic activity occurs under water, but most of the underwater volcanoes have not yet been discovered.
    As confirmation, we can cite the discovery in 2010 of the underwater volcano Cavio Barat near Indonesia. Its height is about 3,8 thousand meters and it is very active.
    1. +4
      11 October 2019 23: 14
      And one more myth, which, in the course of exposing the first three, was already created by the author: "In the depths of the ocean, gloomy calm reigns."
      Oceanology and hydrophysics state the opposite. Under the influence of various kinds of causes in the surface, deep and bottom layers of the oceans and seas, horizontal and vertical movements of water masses of various nature arise. And if constant and periodic movements can be taken into account, then temporary and random can not be accounted for.
      And in the ocean there are such phenomena as picocline, thermocline, chemocline, halocline, sound-scattering layer. And all of them are both systemic and random in nature and have a direct impact on navigation.
  26. +7
    11 October 2019 23: 46
    By the way, the pictures were taken by the team of Paul Allen from the side of his yacht of the private oceanographic vessel R / V Petrel.


    Only this sonar image was obtained not from a ship on the surface, as you might think from the article, but with the help of a Bluefin underwater remote-controlled device with two side-scan sonars. As you can see from the caption to the picture, this very "Blufin" passed at a height of 26 meters from the bottom. The white line in the center of the image is the dead zone of his sonar, i.e. he shows the actual path of "Blufin". The distance from the vehicle to the cruiser is about 20-70 meters. It can be seen that at 60 meters the barrels of the guns are already poorly visible, and they are not less than 60 cm in diameter. Those. a resolution of 1 m can be achieved at distances no further than 100 m. And most importantly, it is not clear how the apparatus itself can measure the depth of its own immersion. The picture says: depths of 1430,0 m. It is unlikely that it can withstand the depth of diving into a round figure. Most likely his own depth gauge measures the depth by the outboard pressure with an accuracy of no better than 10 meters.

    At one time, scientists measured the depth of the Mariana Trench to the nearest meter. But it took several days to work. They lowered the bathyspheres to different depths and measured the salinity, density and temperature of the water to find out the speed of sound at each depth. Only then they sent a sonar signal and counted. Apparently the same method will have to be applied today. Those. at least one day should be expected to measure depth greater than half a kilometer deep. If these points must be followed at least a hundred meters apart - work before communism.

    The proof is the described principle of the TERCOM (Terrain Contour Matching) system for the Tomahawk missile.


    In my opinion, this principle serves as a refutation, not a proof. To create maps for TERKOM, the Americans had to launch a mapping satellite with an active radar, which produced images of the required quality in several hundred orbits. A couple of years later, the Soviet Union had to do the same. All the maps that existed until then, made by airplanes or simply by travelers, were not suitable for navigating cruise missiles. In general, probably these maps could be made by airplanes, but due to technical difficulties no one even tried this. The difference for underwater mapping is that there is no "satellite" for it. And making a map from hydrographic vessels is as unrealistic as making maps for the Kyrgyz Republic using airplanes.

    Under normal conditions, TERCOM only works on a quarter of the route


    The rest of the time flies according to the signals of ZhiPiES. At worst, there is also a Doppler drift speed meter.

    the average rate of accumulation of bottom sediments in the middle part of the Atlantic Ocean is 2 centimeters per 1000 years.


    Average maybe. But treasure seekers are digging out "golden galleons" from under a multi-meter layer of sand and silt. And then they are three hundred years old.

    Everywhere there are uniform forms of relief in which the use of TERCOM is physically impossible.


    Right. "Tomahawks" that flew on the "Terkom" instead of Yugoslavia flew to Bulgaria. The whole world rolled over them with laughter. Therefore, the missilemen refused to target the landscape. "Terkom" stands only as an addition to ZhiEs. On the AGM-86C, terrain guidance is generally removed, guidance only along ZhIPiES and INS.

    Most likely, those who drew the beautiful figure “100 knots.” Did not fully realize the whole paradox of the situation.


    Fair.
    1. +3
      12 October 2019 00: 03
      Everywhere there are uniform forms of relief in which the use of TERCOM is physically impossible.


      There are many more such flat areas on the seabed. For example, there are no rivers, river valleys, ravines, stone boulders. This can be seen even in the photographs given by "Mogami" and "Hornet".
      1. +1
        12 October 2019 00: 25
        We will stoke the AUG along the path of Poseidon, so that the coordinates are)))
        1. +1
          12 October 2019 14: 26
          The submarine navigator says:
          -Capitan, we got lost, I just can’t understand where we are ...
          - We swim, navigate the sun.
          Surfaced. Navigator:
          - Captain, clouds ... Maybe we ask the ship where we are?
          -Yes so that I ask someone !!! Well, the navigator, so that the last time he squinted like that! On the ship torpedo or fire! Radio operator, they will transmit SOS now, write down the coordinates.
  27. +1
    12 October 2019 00: 22
    "He broke all the brains into pieces! Braided all the convolutions!" ...... fool Well, I will not comment on anything! I have already posted a detailed commentary on navigation, the power of the Poseidon nuclear power plant, cartographic work, echo sounders, magnetometric and gravitational navigation systems ... everything remains "in effect" ... nothing to add!
    1. 0
      12 October 2019 00: 34
      And exile hde?
  28. +2
    12 October 2019 06: 47
    I read all the comments. Attitude to the cartoons in March is changing markedly. Blind faith is increasingly replaced by a thought process.
    Oleg with the return!
  29. 0
    12 October 2019 08: 54
    Everyone understands that this is all a rut. laughing
    1. -1
      12 October 2019 11: 45
      No, it’s a very real device, as real as the Harpsichord 2P PM NPA
      and according to the statements, he can dive and float up to 6000 meters, but here is what they showed everyone
      with a 100% probability, it is simply a test model for checking: material, hull structure, propulsion, propellers, and the torpedo tube itself.
  30. 0
    12 October 2019 10: 40
    Gentlemen of criticism "100 knots", but where did you get the idea that the apparatus will be deprived of the ability to maneuver with speed? Up to 100 nodes does not mean only 100 nodes.
    1. 0
      12 October 2019 13: 14
      We discussed it here somehow.
      The buoyancy margin is not enough, and it must maintain depth in the course of the dynamics.
      Slows down, drowns.
      1. 0
        13 October 2019 09: 32
        Wait, the GDP talked about at least 2 modes of operation of the NSS and a quick switch between them. This suggests at least two travel modes.


        At the same time, the estimates of the developers of hydroacoustic detection systems for Russian Delta submarines from NPP Soyuz, chief designer Valentin Leksin and his brother, well-known sonar expert Viktor Leksin, who believed that the drone would rather use classic stealth submarines means at a low-speed “creeping up” mode with a quick transition to cruising speed upon detection HI Sutton also agrees with scientists suggesting that the drone will be more likely not like a torpedo, but like a nuclear submarine or a stealth tor pedu as "Fizik-1", using modern stealth means of nuclear submarines as a jet propeller with closed saber-shaped blades of screws, as well as large folding steering wheels, less noisy when flowing around with water. Sutton noted that these technical components of the drone were shown at a presentation by Vladimir Putin.



  31. -4
    12 October 2019 13: 17
    Oh my God ... Continuation of cartoons? As you pulled up already with your "Poseidon".
    1. 0
      12 October 2019 18: 33
      Are you sick of whining?
      1. 0
        16 October 2019 11: 14
        And you read nonsense?
        1. 0
          16 October 2019 12: 28
          There is no delirium - there are only speculations technically justified.
  32. +5
    12 October 2019 15: 13
    Quote: Tlauicol
    I read all the comments. Attitude to the cartoons in March is changing markedly. Blind faith is increasingly replaced by a thought process.
    Oleg with the return!

    So the stage of euphoria passed. A well-thought-out pre-election move is one thing, when everything was perceived in euphoria and even housewives spoke about the parameters of these weapon systems, and there were so few thought-out and reasoned opinions that they drowned in the stream of opinions "in solidarity" with the presidential one.
    Now this stage has already passed for many. Some people start thinking. Of course, the attitude is also changing towards "those who have no analogues in the world"
    1. -1
      12 October 2019 18: 39
      The most vivid argument that this robotic torpedo exists is the launch of the Belgorod nuclear submarine this year - which is officially announced as the carrier of Poseidon and they promise to launch another nuclear submarine next year. Cartoons are over - it's time for iron.
  33. +4
    12 October 2019 19: 05
    Quote: Vadim237
    The most vivid argument that this robotic torpedo exists is the launch of the Belgorod nuclear submarine this year - which is officially announced as the carrier of Poseidon and they promise to launch another nuclear submarine next year. Cartoons are over - it's time for iron.

    Belgorod is versatile. It can carry other vehicles (rescue, deep-sea), and not only "Poseidon"
    1. 0
      12 October 2019 20: 31
      And there are no Poseidon launch systems on it - a surprise. Empty volumes under a light body.

      But Vadim has his own reality, he has ours on the drum. laughing laughing
      1. -2
        12 October 2019 22: 33
        "And there are no Poseidon launch systems on it - a surprise. Empty volumes under a light hull. Do you have any proof of this? What do you have to do with the construction of this boat? Judging by your reality in a recent article, Russia does not have an early warning system and that's it. in the Ministry of Defense, without exception, brakes and idiots, as well as border guards, together with the FSB, are stupid who, under their very noses in a diplomatic mail, are bringing in nuclear bags into the country.
        1. 0
          13 October 2019 01: 00
          Judging by your reality, in a recent article, Russia has no SPRN and everything in the Moscow Region is completely brakes and idiots, as well as border guards, along with the FSB, are idiots who are carrying nuclear packs under the nose in diplomatic mail.


          Do not distort. I have never claimed anything like this.
    2. 0
      12 October 2019 22: 58
      And what I wrote somewhere is that apart from the Poseidons, Belgorod can’t carry anything, having a length of 184 meters, a body width of 18 meters and a height of 15 meters, a lot of things will get into such a bandura - I can assume that there are 6 torpedo tubes for conventional torpedoes, 6-8 containers Poseidonov, missile armament Caliber or Onyx, two Klavesin 2P devices, the project 18510 deep-sea nuclear station - under the belly, as well as a complex of anti-torpedo protection Package NK.
  34. 0
    12 October 2019 19: 31
    The author reports that he does not know anything under the veil of secrecy and that 100 nodes cannot be because this can never happen. But what if this is not a propeller, but a ramjet? The President said that the compact nuclear power plants, for example, were developed. Petrel.
    1. 0
      12 October 2019 20: 12
      Yes, and underwater navigation he may have from the fluctuation of the earth's crust from a nuclear explosion made in the right place at the right time
    2. +1
      12 October 2019 20: 29
      The Ministry of Defense posted a video with the "idle" scrolling of the "megatorpeda" water cannon.
  35. 0
    12 October 2019 20: 40
    Comment from Maxim Klimov (Fizik M),

    If you still think a little ...
    Oleg Kaptsov:
    Myth No.1. It is impossible to make a map along the entire route of Poseidon
    The conclusion that can be drawn from the available facts: when laying the routes of Poseidon, a significantly lower density of correction areas will be required. Separate squares of the ocean floor. All further questions should be addressed to the hydrographic service of the Navy.


    MK:
    The key question here is to make the necessary filming HIDDEN. But with this "not very much".
    Corresponding the enemy will have a "plaque of probable correction areas" - with "corresponding consequences."

    Oleg Kaptsov:
    Myth No.2. Sonar is not able to provide the necessary accuracy of scanning the bottom
    The permissible error in measuring the height of the relief during TERCOM operation is not more than 1 meters. What accuracy do modern sonar products designed for bottom mapping provide? Is it possible to place such a sonar in a limited-sized Poseidon case?
    The answer to these questions will be sonar images of the remains of ships.
    The detail of these images is conclusive evidence in favor of seabed mapping systems. By the way, the pictures were taken by the team of Paul Allen from the side of his yacht of the private oceanographic vessel R / V Petrel.


    MK:
    In fact, before giving such FUNNY "arguments", you just need to google under what conditions they are obtained (UNITS of carrier nodes (a separate question of the special POC PMO, but there are 12-18 knots)

    Oleg Kaptsov:
    Myth No.3. The bottom topography is subject to change
    For comparison. How many problems do cruise missiles fly over land? The digital mapping process for TERCOM is hampered by seasonal changes in terrain. Everywhere there are uniform forms of relief in which the use of TERCOM is physically impossible. Routes bypass large ponds, missiles avoid snow-covered plains and sand dunes on their way.
    Unlike the listed difficulties, there is always a bottom in the depths of the deepest ocean. Covered with a unique “pattern” of relief details.
    The relief system is the most reliable and realistic navigation method for the Poseidon underwater vehicle.


    MK:
    Especially with this "relief" "good" (IN QUOTATION MARK) on the abyssal plains of the depths of the Pacific Ocean (ie where they want to "shove" "Statuses") ...

    Oleg Kaptsov:
    The torpedo was equipped with a 2DT short-life gas turbine engine with an output of 1,07 MW (1450 hp) - one of the most powerful torpedo weapons ever used. With it, the estimated speed of the 65-73 product could reach 50 nodes.


    MK:
    The data is incorrect.

    Oleg Kaptsov:
    Place a nuclear power plant with 3,4 times less power (8,5 MW) in a casing with approximately 50-60 times less displacement.
    In other words, the specific energy performance of the Poseidon nuclear reactor should be 15 times higher than that of a reactor with a liquid metal coolant (LMT), which was used on submarines of the 705 (K) project. The same 15 times greater specific efficiency should be demonstrated by all the mechanisms associated with the conversion of the thermal energy of the reactor into the translational energy of motion of the underwater vehicle.
    100 knots - very high speed in water, requiring EXCLUSIVE energy costs. Probably those who drew the beautiful figure “100 knots” did not fully realize the whole paradox of the situation.


    MK:
    In fact, before the ROC, there was research on the topic (with one of the tasks of JUSTIFICATION OF REQUIREMENTS), and quite serious. And this question was clearly described by Cap-1 R. Gusev (I remind you - he is a member of the "trio" preparing documents for the Resolution on the beginning of these works). Accordingly, "drawing" and "paradoxicality" is actually only the author's. As for the power density, the key issue for the "Status" power plant is SHORT RESPONSE and NO STRICT PROTECTION REQUIREMENTS (ie, examples from PLA are absolutely "leftist" here)

    M.Klimov
    1. -2
      11 December 2020 13: 20

      The key question here is to make the necessary filming HIDDEN. But with this "not very much".
      Corresponding the enemy will have a "plaque of probable correction areas" - with "corresponding consequences."

      I'm wondering "maestro" before writing such a good thought?
      Well, the enemy will have an ocean plate with a field of 5 by 5 = 25 correction areas.
      What's next?
      Post in all 25 districts ... what? And wait for this torpedo WHEN?

      And if we take into account another fact - how will Americans understand that it is mapping that is happening?
      Yes, they may notice that our specials are operating in the area. facilities.
      Poke 50 points and let them put them on their map.

      I generally like this logic. According to her, it is possible to create a bulletproof vest. So you need to give up firearms.


      MK:
      In fact, before giving such FUNNY "arguments", you just need to google under what conditions they are obtained (UNITS of carrier nodes (a separate question of the special POC PMO, but there are 12-18 knots)

      Before writing your CLONE "case" it is worth understanding the difference between mapping from the surface and mapping at the bottom.

      And it also does not hurt to turn on the brain again and think that for such areas it is advisable to use places with BRIGHT landmarks. In order to neutralize the errors due to the larger difference in heights on the bottom section.

      MK:
      Especially with this "relief" "good" (IN QUOTATION MARK) on the abyssal plains of the depths of the Pacific Ocean (ie where they want to "shove" "Statuses").

      Ahh ... well.
      Here we have another homebrew expert on the "bottom of the Pacific" appeared.
      Another master of sports in all sports.

      You can also look at the fingers and believe - well, they are the same and smooth for all people)))
      How can you determine the identity of some of their prints ?! What nonsense ?!

      Here the author writes about the same thing about the bottom of the TO)))) The fact that the nibbles of irregularities in real scale have fluctuations of hundreds of meters is nonsense. The bottom is smooth)))
  36. 0
    12 October 2019 21: 36
    Well done Oleg. hi He voiced in this article what thinking people think. "How does Poseidon navigate?" I fully agree with Oleg.
    1. 0
      12 October 2019 22: 39
      We can only speculate how no one can tell the truth how this will work, nor will Poseidon's real appearance be shown, since its design is state secret.
      1. -2
        12 October 2019 22: 46
        This is understandable to everyone. This is not in the traditions of our military-industrial complex. We are discussing Western new technology in reality. Unfortunately, it’s only figuratively. Not only that. We learn its appearance from Western publications. I am the biggest opponent of this state of things. And maybe one of the first to talk about it. Although recently they are trying to change this policy with breaking and creaking. hi
  37. kig
    0
    13 October 2019 03: 38
    Loud statements about the creation of miracle weapons were made against the background, to put it mildly, of modest successes in the creation of traditional weapons
    - is it a bluff? Now, please tell us about the Petrel.
  38. -1
    13 October 2019 12: 29
    "Loud statements about the creation of a miracle weapon were made against the background, to put it mildly, of modest successes in the creation of traditional weapons." What is this - can it be in detail, especially about the creation that our military-industrial complex could not create?
  39. bar
    -4
    13 October 2019 12: 38
    The problem of underwater navigation for the Poseidon apparatus can only be solved with the use of a relief navigation system.

    And when I wrote this in a previous discussion of "Poseidon" and mentioned "losharik" in this context, I got minus sad
  40. 0
    13 October 2019 14: 01
    "Is there life on Mars or not ?!", "Will / Poseidon / be able to navigate and effectively manage underwater or is it a bluff ?!" on the forum you can discuss for an infinitely long time, but ... The main thing is that interested persons (among the Ministry of Defense and scientists participating in the project) will knock out funds for this program and safely master it !! ... And the rest ... can continue the discussion ...
    1. 0
      14 October 2019 08: 42
      The main thing is that the interested parties (among the Moscow Region and the scientists involved in the project) will withdraw funds for this program and successfully recover !! .


      Oh yeah. More state awards are written down and dissertations written, they will receive academic titles.
      This sawmill also works for that.
      1. -2
        16 October 2019 11: 27
        All this fuss began to remind me of Lenya Golubkov and the MMM pyramid. Only on a larger scale.
        Well, people believe in cartoons.
  41. +1
    13 October 2019 14: 16
    About the course correction along the bottom, I wrote for a long time in the comments about Poseidon, our hydrographs have been walking across the seas and oceans for many years.
    I agree about the power of the power plant, but with the condition that we do not change anything in the design of the head fairing of a torpedo ....
    Now, in essence, how to achieve high speed and reduce the load on the power plant, examples on vskidka:
    1. reduce the density of the medium (there are multiple gas bubbles, how to get and spray in front of the head fairing is another matter, to create a film with a different (lower density) film and also constantly).
    2. mechanical devices according to the type of cavitator like a barrage, but there are nuances with different speeds and acceleration to obtain the effect.
    3. warming the fairing to critical temperatures (1000 degrees or more) when interacting with water, we have the same steam and therefore an air bubble.
    There is no need to throw stones wassat This is a discussion on the topic, not the ultimate truth hi
  42. 0
    14 October 2019 01: 07
    The discussion of Poseidon as a nuclear torpedo is frankly surprising.
    This is an uninhabited underwater vehicle. Initially said MULTIFUNCTIONAL.
    In terms of displacement, it is closer to submarines than to torpedoes (except for special monsters of the Soviet era). in size too. The only possible advantage of Poseidon over a conventional rocket with nuclear capability is the ability to carry a gigaton and higher nuclear charge (theoretically). At the same time, there are niches for such an apparatus where it is simply necessary, to compensate for our vulnerabilities to a potential enemy.
    1. -1
      14 October 2019 08: 44
      You estimate the size from the pictures, take the density of an ordinary torpedo and from this calculate the buoyancy of this Poseidon (we will leave Poseidon denser outside the brackets). Ballast tanks are not there, if that.

      Then you can already fantasize about "multifunctionality".

      This is a nuclear torpedo.
      1. +1
        14 October 2019 14: 23
        Timokhin, I counted.
        It’s just not idiocy with the density of an ordinary torpedo, the offer to take which is not offered by the professional who offers it, but the density of a possible power plant obtained from analogues on the basis of open data and reasonable assumptions about the purpose of the anti-aircraft gun.
        The buoyancy there is far from negative.
        Taking into account the fact that the mine did not give his calculations, he also counted. Only, as usual among people who do not disdain "dirty tricks", I decided not to voice the calculations, since they did not correspond to your theses with him.
        1. 0
          14 October 2019 15: 50
          and the density of a possible power plant obtained from analogues


          Throw off the link to the analogs of "Poseidon", I will see, very interesting. laughing

          The buoyancy there is far from negative.


          That is, the reactor, fuel assemblies, heat exchanger for external pressure in 100 + atm. (remember the depth) and the turbo-gear unit of this thing together by weight is lighter than water, yes Boris?

          laughing laughing

          Do you want to throw a nice picture with a magical pink pony for your avatar?
        2. -1
          19 October 2019 20: 49
          Quote: Newone
          It’s just not idiocy with the density of an ordinary torpedo, the offer to take which is not offered by the professional who offers it, but the density of a possible power plant obtained from analogues on the basis of open data and reasonable assumptions about the purpose of the anti-aircraft gun.
          The buoyancy there is far from negative.

          yeah, positive, like there

          Quote: Newone
          Taking into account the fact that the mine did not give his calculations, he also counted. Only, as usual among people who do not disdain "dirty tricks", I decided not to voice the calculations, since they did not correspond to your theses with him.

          Monsieur nonsense! I said ENOUGH to JUSTIFICATE my PROFESSIONAL ASSESSMENT, and DO NOT GIVE ANY Opportunity for PROVOCATORS like YOU to provoke to "cross the red line"
    2. 0
      19 October 2019 20: 52
      Quote: Newone
      The discussion of Poseidon as a nuclear torpedo is frankly surprising.
      This is an uninhabited underwater vehicle.

      tell him about this YOUR "convulsion of thought" -
  43. +5
    14 October 2019 11: 09
    NPA "Poseidon" carries out cruise navigation with the help of the so-called. quantum gravitometer (positioning accuracy - 200 meters), when approaching the line of attack or temporary underwater parking - using a low-power high-frequency sonar (of the order of hundreds of thousands of hertz) with audible radiation within 200 meters.

    The CIUS "Poseidon" includes electronic topographic maps in gravity and sonar formats.

    PS And in order not to get up twice - one-way radio communication with Poseidon is provided with the help of an ultra-low-frequency radio transmitter Zeus, located on the Kola Peninsula and operating on a wave longer than 10 km, penetrating the water to a comparable depth. The Poseidon receiver is equipped with a magnetic antenna in the form of a multi-turn coil of a millimeter wire about 5 km long, located on the inner surface of the titanium body of the NPA. All of the Poseidon's onboard equipment is located on the chassis, contacting with the inner surface of the hull through active shock absorbers in only four places (not counting the propeller shaft point outlets and water intake pipes for cooling the secondary circuit of the nuclear power plant).
    One-way radio communication is designed to transmit a coded circular command to all Poseidons to start attacking planned targets (at the beginning of a nuclear conflict) or to transmit a coded order to a specific UOA to return to the base or to the carrier submarine at a predetermined meeting point (for maintenance, etc.). etc.).
    1. 0
      14 October 2019 15: 52
      Get away from the computer already, huh? At your age, this is not useful, which is what they wrote.
      laughing
      1. +6
        14 October 2019 16: 49
        Tie down to write tongue-tied comments in Russian, go to your native Polish-Okrainskiy surzhik laughing
        1. 0
          14 October 2019 16: 55
          Weakly.

          By the way, where are those guys published under the nickname of cameraman Andrey? Budget is over yes laughing ?

          You will communicate with them, ask them for 3 Д renders of this device, they have very beautiful, I must say laughing

          At the same time, ask what kind of hitch with the tests happened - Shoigu promised the GDP that in August Poseidon would float once, even the tray for pulling the model out of the water was screwed to the Zvezdochka, but there were no tests. What's the matter there?
          1. +7
            14 October 2019 17: 12
            Freebie for a ride: collect information on "Poseidon" yourself - for cereal rations laughing
            1. -1
              14 October 2019 17: 28
              In my opinion, on CIA soldering, those who drown for this cut, but I completely collected the information.

              Even the renderings of your hosts pulled, Andryusha laughing
              1. -1
                15 October 2019 19: 20
                "And I have collected the information completely." What information have you collected there - a retired engineer, perhaps only OBS and theoretical data from the Internet and textbooks.
                1. 0
                  15 October 2019 20: 25
                  Let's go back to the dialogue about the corrugated gray wall against which the running model of the "product" hangs? To assess who knows what?

                  What was the wall there, Vadim? What is behind her? What kind of system did not get into the frame to the left of the wall I wrote?

                  Let's check who knows what here. You’re generally digging out all the information from the abyss of your sleeping mind, you don’t slander others, but I’m ready to continue the dialogue on the aforementioned topic with which you moved out
                  1. -1
                    15 October 2019 23: 20
                    Unlike you, I don’t get anything out and I’m not trying to prove at the mouth with foam that the system adopted by the MO is a dummy. You have nothing to do with this development - you have only knowledge in the field of hydrodynamics and conventional torpedo construction. In the photographs from the MO, the real NPA layout is that they don’t have any control holes compared to the same Klavisin 2P, the real appearance of the torpedo is that we won’t see the robotic NPAs like Zircon and Vanguard, at least in the coming decades - the appearance state secret, like all gut controls.
                    1. 0
                      19 October 2019 20: 42
                      Quote: Vadim237
                      nor any of those and control holes compared to the same Klavisin 2P not there, real

                      if you think a little, it becomes obvious that they do not need status
                      1. 0
                        19 October 2019 22: 12
                        It’s just as needed, since the devices of the same class are deep-sea anti-aircraft weapons, only Poseidon has a supercritical nuclear installation and it’s once more in size with 8 than Klavichin 2.
                      2. 0
                        20 October 2019 12: 40
                        It’s just as needed, since the devices of the same class are deep-sea anti-aircraft weapons, only Poseidon has a supercritical nuclear installation and it’s once more in size with 8 than Klavichin 2.

                        you with vision how? lol
                      3. -2
                        20 October 2019 12: 56
                        You have a bad head and I have long understood that - old age is not a joy. What do you want to show me with this picture?
                      4. 0
                        20 October 2019 12: 59
                        Quote: Vadim237
                        Your head is bad

                        the fact that YOU are not only very bad with your head - but also DUPOI (burned, smokes and stinks) - is clear to everyone from YOUR stupid posts lol
                        Quote: Vadim237
                        did you want to show me this picture?

                        1. You - spelled with a capital letter
                        2. Together with a psychiatrist, visit an optometrist. He will tell you what there data given (not having anything to do with YOUR Nonsense)
            2. -1
              19 October 2019 20: 43
              Quote: Operator
              Freebie on

              fool
              YOU do not have a "freebie", but, to put it mildly - "REN-TV" laughing
    2. -1
      19 October 2019 20: 46
      Quote: Operator
      NPA "Poseidon" carries out cruise navigation with the help of the so-called. quantum gravitometer (positioning accuracy - 200 meters),

      fool
      with this HERB to -
  44. +1
    14 October 2019 16: 10
    Unfortunately, I have to disappoint you already on your phrase "Myth No. 1". For the GOS of the Kyrgyz Republic, created according to the "Tercom" system (terrain correction), digital terrain maps were needed, made using strictly defined satellites with the involvement of very serious institutions and computers on the ground. It was not very cheap, without the use of SBS against a technically advanced adversary, it gave NO results, etc. All this was reflected in the materials of both the RAS RAS of the USSR and the General Staff of the USSR. However, the military-political leadership of the USSR made a decision to create and develop the theme of strategic RCs with a low-altitude flight profile and orientation along the terrain. It was then that the inherent demands and decisions made possible strikes against the "Islamists" both from NK and from bombers during the "Syrian Company". On the topic of the article: if the creation of digital maps of the terrain, CRITICALLY necessary for the RC with the TERCOM system, requires the use of satellites, moreover, with certain orbits and TX, then HOW TO CREATE a digital map of the seabed? AES will not help, ships have, in comparison with satellites, not a narrow, but hopelessly narrow survey band, moreover, they are easily tracked and driven out of the territorial waters. A simple question: who will create the "bottom map" for Poseidon?
    1. 0
      15 October 2019 19: 48
      At the moment, Russia has 35 different hydrographic vessels who can take pictures of the sea and ocean bottom, but this torpedo must have at least two guidance and orientation systems, satellite communications underwater cannot work - and suddenly KRET came up with something in this direction, it should there can be a system of orientation, for example, underwater currents - the difference in salinity and temperature can even the noise of the propellers of merchant ships that constantly go to the United States and from the United States both in the Pacific and the Atlantic Ocean - these are thousands of ships the first landmark.
      1. -1
        15 October 2019 20: 28
        Burn out. And after all, this person has the audacity to declare to others that they are somehow wrong there!
        laughing
        1. 0
          15 October 2019 23: 40
          Frenzy - over pensioners, as you did, and I didn't write anything fantastic above - in fact, there are 35 ships in the fleet, about KRET - guys are very capable in the field of communications and radar, but they are not the only ones who work, about underwater currents in the seas and oceans there are "rivers" with a difference in salinity and temperatures - did you not know? The noise of vessels of a certain class of bulk carriers, tankers, etc. - can be recorded and used as an acoustic reference, all this is possible. And you farther up the US and NATO navy, whose torpedo armament and defense systems have the same advanced efficiency as the Patriot air defense system, promoted all over the world - but in fact, it's an empty space, systems for which are bred for tens of billions of dollars every year, sell then expensive bullshit someone needs.
          1. 0
            15 October 2019 23: 55
            “In 2018, a team of researchers from the University of Pennsylvania developed a concealment device that works effectively underwater. This new 'metamaterial invisibility cloak' is able to intercept and refract the acoustic waves propagating underwater that are probed around by sonars. All this happens without the slightest reflection or scattering of sound waves, due to which the sonar will not be able to find out that any object is within its reach "Progress does not stand still - including in Russia.
          2. 0
            16 October 2019 12: 23
            Ugar - over pensioners like you exactly and nothing fantastic above I did not write


            No, they wrote. laughing

            You wrote, for example:
            maybe even the noise of the propellers of merchant ships that constantly travel to and from the United States both in the Pacific and the Atlantic Ocean - these are thousands of ships in my fucking landmark.


            Aha laughing laughing
            1. -1
              16 October 2019 12: 36
              "Aha" - I did not see any arguments against in technical terms.
              1. 0
                16 October 2019 12: 37
                You just don’t understand how crazy things you write. It is crazy.

                How to comment on them?
                1. 0
                  16 October 2019 19: 45
                  At one time, the plane seemed insanity; the submarine was fantastic, like a transistor and a laser, like metamaterials - no matter how crazy ideas would be, some of them are put into practice and development in the process: hydrodynamics, echolocation, radar, heat engineering, materials science, and much more goes on .
                  1. +1
                    17 October 2019 10: 46
                    Fiction is not crazy. These are different things.
          3. 0
            19 October 2019 20: 40
            Quote: Vadim237
            And you lick further the US and NATO fleet, in which all torpedo weapons and defense systems have the same advanced efficiency as the Patriot air defense system launched around the world

            fool
            YOU when SO smack nonsense, that at least have a snack;)
            1. 0
              19 October 2019 22: 37
              You tell this to the guys in the United States who worked on the anti-torpedo protection of aircraft carriers - who lowered 750 million on it, and then the program was closed due to the low efficiency of new torpedoes - and this in 2018 with their technologies and developments in torpedo armament, sonars and other things. The second idiots chased for two weeks the signals of a faulty buoy - they say a Russian submarine - the guys also had the most modern acoustic equipment and PLO. And you Maxim can sniff cocaine with Her Majesty's submariners, they welcome it there in the Navy, especially when going to sea - you look at the effectiveness of your articles on attracting an audience, under the heading "In Russia, the submarine fleet is shit and ours can't do anything." will jump.
              1. 0
                20 October 2019 12: 46
                Quote: Vadim237
                You tell the guys in the USA who worked on the anti-torpedo protection of aircraft carriers - who sent 750 millions to it and then closed the program in view of the low efficiency of the new torpedoes

                what about amers - I clearly painted in a series of articles (including on VO) - unlike YOUR stubborn jumps on a trampoline
                Quote: Vadim237
                And you Maxim can sniff cocaine with her majesty’s submariners,

                YOU would change your drug dealer, YOUR HERB will be worse than cocaine laughing
                1. -2
                  20 October 2019 13: 07
                  We have already read - most of the advertising slides, a good description, a beautiful wrapper - for suckers who can suck in any high-tech crap for big grandmas. The main thing is that you crap a little more - you have to lobby the interests of foreign partners somehow - continue in the same vein.
                  1. 0
                    20 October 2019 13: 13
                    Quote: Vadim237
                    We have already read - most of the advertising slides, a good description, a beautiful wrapper - for suckers who can suck in any high-tech crap for big grandmas. The main thing their crap more

                    understand ... "not a horse feed"
                    YOUR is "Murzilki" lol
        2. 0
          16 October 2019 11: 33
          It was. The Quaker story. I wrote earlier. A joint project of scientists with amers, I understood, they signed up to find out the level of the former. THE USSR. We worked together for a year in the early 90s. It was precisely the American underwater positioning system, which our submarines ran into, called "Quakers".
          1. 0
            16 October 2019 12: 33
            They wrote and told that these Quaker signals were constantly moving around the oceans - which is technically difficult to implement in the 70s and 80s.
          2. +1
            19 October 2019 20: 36
            Quote: Polinom
            It was precisely the American underwater positioning system, which our submarines ran into, called "Quakers".

            no
            1. 0
              22 October 2019 10: 34
              Lexins are in the know.
              1. -1
                22 October 2019 10: 35
                Quote: Polinom
                Lexins are in the know.

                no
      2. +1
        17 October 2019 14: 58
        Vadim, good afternoon. I try to write all my comments with one goal in mind - so that the people reading them, after reading them, would be distracted from the "internet" and read some serious literature about the article under discussion. Therefore, with all my sincere respect for Mr. Timokhin (he is one of the few whose comments here I always read and sincerely respect, there is also "Boa Kaa" well, and a couple more, how is it correct - "nicknames"?), I'll try, unlike him, you "chew" (no offense, this is just a term, it suits more than "explain"). Let's go point by point.
        1. Hydrographic vessels are not all adapted to compiling a digital map (or simply a map) of the seabed. The bandwidth of the map they compose is hundreds or even thousands of times narrower than the bandwidth of the terrain map compiled by satellites. To compile a digital seafloor map suitable for navigating the Poseidon is currently NOT TECHNICAL. Otherwise, it would have been used for a long time to orient SSBNs, but they (if there is time) prefer correction using periscopes from NAVSTAR or stars.
        2. Such vessels will not let the "adversary" BO into the territorial waters unambiguously and will create all possible obstacles within the economic zone 200 miles from the coast. The seabed can only be charted with an active echo sounder. A BO ​​ship traveling in parallel can create serious interference with its echo sounder, this is not electronic warfare, the frequency band used is much narrower, the map, to put it mildly, will not be accurate.
        3. That the CD, that the Poseidon-type devices are equipped with an inertial guidance system. Its error DOES NOT DEPEND on distance, as such, but depends on TIME. The longer the ANN works without correction, the greater the error. At the same time, the positions of launching missile launchers from NK and submarines against coastal targets in the USA are limited to a range of 200 miles from the coast. At a longer range, the INS KR, flying at a transonic speed, does not even give a 60% guarantee of reaching the correction area (over the sea for TERKOM, correction is not possible). How much will Poseidon deviate at a distance of 200 miles at a speed that is several times lower than the speed of the CD, respectively, in times longer to pass?
        4. Orientation, or rather, correction of the trajectory of an unmanned vehicle, it doesn’t matter, air or underwater, is possible only by RELATIVE FIXED elements: stars, terrain, radar or infrared beacons with known coordinates, etc. With respect to moving and unstable elements (sea currents, the noise of the propellers of the going ships), correction is possible only relative to these moving objects. Simpler: focusing on the noise of the propellers, a torpedo can get into this noisy ship, but in any way to the port from which it exited.
        5. Suppose I am utterly stupid and there are systems that will lead Poseidon to the exact port of destination. What's next? In a crisis situation, the US military fleet will patiently wait at the base while this unit will "chap" under water to the United States for a couple of days? Are they more moronic than me? Hardly. What then will our "superweapon" get? Women and children on the shore? Do you like this option? I personally do not. Plus, compare the travel time of this miracle with the flight time of an ICBM. Any questions?
        I have already written, I will repeat: learn history. The first Soviet nuclear submarine was designed for such a super torpedo with the T-15 thermonuclear warhead (which is why it received a hull shape more advanced than the American nuclear submarines created earlier). "Hacked" the super torpedo by the commander-in-chief of the Navy. After testing 100 mgt "super bombs", the "peace fighter" Sakharov returned to the idea of ​​a "super torpedo". His memoirs: “I decided that such a carrier could be a large torpedo launched from a submarine. I fantasized that a ramjet water-steam atomic jet engine could be developed for such a torpedo. The target of an attack from a distance of several hundred kilometers should be enemy ports. < …> The body of such a torpedo can be made very durable, it is not afraid of mines and barrage nets. One of the first people with whom I discussed this project was Rear Admiral Fomin ... He was shocked by the "cannibalistic nature" of the project and remarked in a conversation with me that naval sailors were used to fighting an armed enemy in open combat and that it was disgusting for him the very thought of such a mass murder. I was ashamed and never discussed this project with anyone again. "
        - A. Sakharov “The Cosmic World”: TSAR-TORPEDA
        What's fundamentally new about Poseidon?
      3. 0
        19 October 2019 20: 41
        Quote: Vadim237
        suddenly KRET came up with something in this direction

        wassat
        Quote: Vadim237
        there should be a system of orientation, for example, underwater currents - the difference in salinity and temperature

        fool

        (only smiles can be on this nonsense)
  45. -3
    19 October 2019 20: 36
    That is, a torpedo will monitor the terrain using a sonar? He will be heard over half the ocean.
  46. 0
    19 October 2019 20: 38
    Quote: Vadim237
    "In 2018, a group of researchers from the University of Pennsylvania developed a concealment device that effectively works underwater. This new" metamaterial invisibility cloak ".... Progress does not stand still - and in Russia as well.

    lol
    with this HERB - on REN-tv
    here still the forum is trying to be technical
    1. -2
      19 October 2019 22: 42
      With people like you, he will never be technical - seniors with seniors who think narrowly will never succeed in creating and developing something new.
      1. 0
        20 October 2019 12: 48
        Quote: Vadim237
        With people like you, he will never be technical - seniors with seniors who think narrowly will never succeed in creating and developing something new.

        psychiatrist visit
        can help ...
        1. -2
          20 October 2019 13: 11
          I don’t need why - you need it, otherwise you have some ripples in the comments, but essentially a solid zero.
          1. 0
            20 October 2019 13: 14
            Quote: Vadim237
            but essentially a solid zero.

            this is because YOU have a very meager and poor mind wassat - which is enough only for "Murzilki" laughing
  47. +1
    20 October 2019 00: 23
    Quote: samaravega
    "Hacked" the super torpedo by the commander-in-chief of the Navy

    The T-15 was "hacked to death" by its performance characteristics - a rechargeable battery, a cruising range of 40 km, a speed of 29 knots, a special warhead power of 1 Mtn.

    The Poseidon is not a negative buoyancy torpedo, but an unmanned underwater vehicle with controlled buoyancy (using a ballast tank). Therefore, the T-15 required a submarine to fire its initial velocity from the torpedo launcher, while the Poseidon simply undocked at a minimum speed from its carrier (in the docked state, being in the free volume of the submarine's light hull).

    The only thing that T-15 and Poseidon have in common is its dimensions (1,55x23,5 m) and displacement (40 tons).
    1. -1
      20 October 2019 12: 50
      Quote: Operator
      a torpedo with negative buoyancy, and an unmanned underwater vehicle with controlled buoyancy (using a ballast tank). Therefore, the T-15 required a submarine to fire its initial velocity from the torpedo launcher, while the Poseidon simply undocked at a minimum speed from its carrier (in the docked state, being in the free volume of the submarine's light hull).

      Andrei, have you gone wrong again? In google banned? laughing
      ONCE AGAIN - T15 HAS A CLOSE TO ZERO BUILDING
      and she did not "shoot" but WENT OUT OF THIS ITSELF (SELF EXIT)
      - in olichia from "Ostrich-6"
      1. 0
        20 October 2019 13: 20
        by T-15
        Myth number 2. Unreal product
        Opinion about the unreality of the project T-15 is usually based on the statement that it could not have been fired from a submarine, since it would inevitably turn over from the loss of longitudinal stability. Of course, this is not the case; the developers of the 627 project and the T-15 torpedoes were highly qualified engineers. Of course, a product shot with a mass of about 40 tons, and from the tip, is a significant perturbation of the “carrier-product” system. However, the planned design solutions removed this problem:
        unlike the vast majority of domestic torpedoes, which had significant overload, the T-15 had to have buoyancy close to zero to ensure self-exit from the torpedo tube and minimal disturbance to the submarine;
        torpedo tubes for the T-15 had an increased (over two meters) caliber to ensure the self-exit of the T-15;
        the first “cetacean” contours of the nose end of the 627 project were determined by the T-15 self-exit (to ensure the necessary uniformity of flow in the area of ​​the breakwater shield of a large torpedo tube).
        Thus, from the technical side, the “627 project carrier –T-15 product” complex was absolutely real and a significant limitation of performance and speed characteristics was deliberately made to implement in a short time. Hence the conclusions.

        https://www.vpk-news.ru/articles/30562
  48. 0
    21 October 2019 13: 05
    Important is battery life and be used as bppa. To far and deep distance with return.
  49. AML
    0
    21 October 2019 17: 35
    Dear connoisseurs, explain plz, what for Poseidon orientation on the seabed. By analogy with tomahawks? So tomahawks hide from radar. And Poseidon from whom and from what to hide? The main thing is that the bottom is not hooked. Stable gyroscope + stable depth map and all. Let's say it swims 1000km at a depth of 500m, it has steadily dived deeper into 1000m and goes there. Auxiliary orientation by technogenic features, the same meteorological buoys, whose coordinates and call signs are known.
    Drove over 50 km to and fro so what? 50-100km to the intended target, he swam up, synchronized the gyro and banzaaaaai. So in my opinion you complicate.
  50. -1
    11 December 2020 12: 41
    For displacement objects, whose dimensions differ within the same order of magnitude, the difference in displacement does not require a sharp increase in the power of the power plant. A striking example - at the same speed, the power of the power plants of a typical destroyer and an aircraft carrier differ by only two times, with a 10-fold difference in the displacement of these ships! Much more problems arise from the desire to increase the speed by 3 knots.

    We summarize. When driving at a declared speed of 100 knots (185,2 km / h), the Poseidon will require a power plant with a net power of at least 8,5 MW (11 600 hp).

    Your mistake here is pretty gross.

    Power will depend primarily on drag.
    And it is a function of the diameter when it comes to a torpedo completely submerged in water.

    Therefore, equating a 650 mm torpedo with a Poseidon is a gross mistake.
    Poseidon will need MORE power.

    Well guys, well, really ... physics grade 9. Really?

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