Japanese "truth" about the war with Russia. How the Japanese repelled "Russian aggression" in Manchuria

In Soviet historiography, it was accepted that the war with Japan became a shame for tsarist Russia and a prerequisite for the first Russian revolution. That the Japanese empire defeated the vast Russian empire because of the mediocre Russian military and political elite and the superiority of the Japanese in military art, technology and management. In modern Russia, the myth has been created that the main causes of defeat are external forces (England and the USA), the Russian liberal community, dissatisfied with the war, and revolutionaries who plunged the empire into turmoil and prevented the country from winning. In Japan, the myth of "Russian aggression" and "preemptive strike" on Russia was created.


Japanese "truth" about the war with Russia. How the Japanese repelled "Russian aggression" in Manchuria


Japanese "truth"


The Japanese view of war is well shown in Japanese feature films. The pinnacle of Japanese propaganda is the film "Emperor Meiji and the Russo-Japanese War." The Japanese immediately called the "cause" of the war: it turns out, this is "Russian aggression"! The Russian empire is stretching its paws to Manchuria and is preparing to seize Japan! A significant part of the time, the government and public opinion put pressure on the emperor, who allegedly does not want to fight and until recently hopes for a compromise. The emperor has no choice but to start a preventive war with the "Russian aggressors." Interestingly, after the collapse of the USSR, a myth with similar motives is actively spreading in Western Europe. Like, the damned Bolsheviks, led by the "bloody Stalin" planned to capture Europe, but he was prevented by Hitler, who dealt a preemptive strike on the USSR.

Thus, the war was not to blame for the Japanese Empire, which attacked the Russian fleet without declaring war, but imperialist Russia, preparing to seize Japan. Evidence is the promotion of Russian troops in Northeast China, the construction of the Chinese Eastern Railway and Port Arthur.

The war itself is poorly shown. A lot of pathos, Japanese patriotism. Most attention is paid to the battle of Liaoyang. At the same time, a stereotype was created, which can be noted in subsequent works: Japanese soldiers selflessly storm the well-trained Russian positions and die in masses from the fire of Russian machine guns. The number of machine guns is just fantastic. However, Japanese troops still heroically win. The battles for Port Arthur are also shown in the same spirit, only attacks go in the winter. The scheme is the same: the Japanese attack in waves, climb under machine guns (monstrous losses in the spirit of "corpses filled up"), drag the guns to heights and win thanks to dedication and high morale. As a result, they finish off the squadron of Rozhdestvensky in the Tsushima battle. Russia humiliates the world. The Japanese people rejoice and celebrate, the emperor mourns for the fallen. Although in reality the Japanese, deceived by their propaganda about the ease of victory and the cries that "the Russians will pay for everything," and seeing how small the successes cost such enormous human and material sacrifices, organized riots and riots. Japanese authorities had to "tighten the nuts." But the popular propaganda is silent about this.

In 1969, the film “Battle in the Sea of ​​Japan” was released; it, in essence, repeats in the main “Emperor Meiji”. Only the emphasis is not on the land theater, but on the sea. The film tells about the preparation and course of the Tsushima naval battle against the background of the general course of the war. The beginning is almost the same: against the background of the map of Manchuria, the announcer speaks pathetically about how the European great powers brought troops into China to protect their embassies during the boxer uprising, but only Russia left them and began to build up. Like, the penetration of Russian into Manchuria threatened the national interests of Japan. Not a word about the aggressive aggressive policy of Japan in China and Korea. Further, as in the established scheme, the emperor had a meeting, the decision to deliver a preemptive strike on Russia, until it intensified too much in the Far East. There is not a word about the role of England and the USA, as well as the fact that Japan played the role of a "battering ram" of the West, squeezing out Russians from the Far East.

Battle scenes are virtually unchanged. The Japanese again bravely attack Russian positions, they are mowed down by machine guns. Here they didn’t even sew Russian uniforms (in the film "Emperor Meiji" the Russians were in blue uniforms and pops a la Cossacks). Russian soldiers here go in the same Japanese uniform as everyone else, only Japanese with yellow distinctions, and Russian with red ones. By the way, the Russian flag in this version stories does not exist. Its role is performed exclusively by the St. Andrew flag. Japanese suicide attacks on the fortifications of Port Arthur are again shown. Tsushima battle. Also, a minor line with the Japanese scout Akashi, a big fan of Russian culture, is introduced into the film. The role of the Japanese special services in the war and revolution in Russia is roughly shown. It seems like a meeting between Akashi and Russian revolutionaries in the person of a bearded man in a leather jacket with the name Seryak. A revolutionary accepts Japanese gold. As a Japanese agent, Lenin is also mentioned. The Japanese military attaché in Russia, Colonel Motojiro Akashi, who really gave money to the Socialist-Revolutionaries and national separatists, was meant as Akashi.

Another similar “masterpiece” of Japanese propaganda is the film “Height 203” (1980). Again, a lie about preparing Russia for an attack on Japan. Allegedly, the Russians began expansion into Manchuria and Korea in order to rob them, and then move to Japan. Therefore, Japan had to get into Manchuria in order to protect the empire’s threshold from the greedy northern neighbor. The "best fortress in the world" Port Arthur is greatly exaggerated, again the mass of machine guns (after a meter and a half, there were not so many in the entire Russian army). Shown are grenades, which then, especially incendiary, were not. Russians again have a gray-blue uniform. Again, Japanese commanders fill up Russian positions with bodies. In general, the film is weak, there are a lot of blood and corpses, and there is little truth.

Thus, the Japanese in the spirit of Hollywood built a very definite picture. "Peace-loving" Japanese, sparing no lives, reflect the expansion of the "northern bears" in Manchuria, "protect" Japan.

Why did Russia lose the war


The main reason is that Japan was ready for war, but Russia was not. After the intervention of Russia and other European powers in the Sino-Japanese war, when Japan was deprived of a significant part of the fruits of its victory, and the Russians acquired Liaodong with Port Arthur, Japanese propaganda turned Russia into the main enemy of the rising sun empire. Japanese pride was humiliated, the whole country from a schoolboy to an emperor understood that this issue can only be solved by force weapons. And the whole empire began to feverishly prepare for war with Russia. At the same time, Japan entered into an alliance with England in 1902 and secured political, financial and material support from the United States. England and the United States wanted to drive the Russians out of the Far East. Japan acted as their "ram." At the same time, the Western financial oligarchy funded the Russian revolutionary movement, that is, they prepared the blow from the outside (Japan) and from the inside (the “fifth column”).

The Japanese were a warrior nation, samurai. The ancient military tradition, education, the whole way of life were aimed at developing a passionate love for the motherland and the emperor. A high level of education facilitated military training, provided competent soldiers and sailors. There was a system of military education, the cultivation of the military elite. The Japanese elite was national, strong-willed, disciplined, energetic, decisive, ready for anything for the interests of the empire. A broad initiative was cultivated.

In the period 1898-1903. The West helped the Japanese Empire create a first-class armored fleet, rearm and train the army according to advanced European standards (German school). All this completely eluded the attention of Russian intelligence and diplomacy. Japan was ready to expose 520 thousand fighters - young, well-trained, armed and fanatically devoted to the emperor. The officers knew very well the future theater of operations - Korea, Manchuria and Liaodong, where they had already fought in 1894, and which they studied very well. In fact, in China, the Japanese have already rehearsed how they will fight the Russians: surprise attack, rout and isolation fleet, the conquest of dominance at sea, the landing of the airborne army and the capture of Port Arthur. And in Petersburg all this was blinded, being sure that the Japanese "macaques" (as they were contemptuously called in the highest salons of St. Petersburg) would not dare to attack the powerful Russian empire.

Japanese intelligence, including secret societies working for the empire, was the best in Asia. She perfectly knew the situation in China, Munchuria, Korea and the Russian Far East. Japanese intelligence even established contacts with the Russian revolutionary underground, the "fifth" column, and financed the First Russian Revolution. The Japanese General Staff was created on the model of the Germanic and well understood the Germanic doctrines and methods, both positive and negative. It is worth noting that the Japanese generals used German skills, but without initiative, imagination, if there were commanders of the Suvorov type in the place of cautious Russian generals, then the Japanese would have been very ill. The Japanese have well studied the experience of the Eastern (Crimean) war of 1853-1856. and the Turkish campaign of 1877 gg., and came to the conclusion that in the person of the Russian army they will not meet an outstanding enemy. The possibilities of the Siberian railroad were underestimated by the Japanese - the Japanese General Staff believed that the Russians would not have time to concentrate more than 6 thousand soldiers in Manchuria before 150 months. They considered it possible to miss one infantry division a month and three pairs of military trains a day, and they made a mistake three times.

That is, the Japanese command proceeded from two "facts": Russian troops of poor quality and they are few in number. In calculating the Russian army, the Japanese General Staff made a mistake at the beginning of the war twice, then three. At the end of the war, Russian troops already had a double superiority. The Japanese escaped complete defeat and destruction on the mainland only because of the passivity of the Russian command, which had forgotten how to fight in Suvorov style. Only due to poor governance did our army not win in Manchuria.

The Russian army and navy paid with blood for the incompetent policy of St. Petersburg


These mistakes (as well as the mistakes of the Japanese generals already during the war itself) could become fatal for Japan if Russia were fantastically unprepared for war in the Far East. Petersburg and Russian society were infected with pacifism; they did not believe in the great war since the Hague Conference in the Far East, they did not seriously think. The War Ministry, headed by Kuropatkin, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Finance, that there will be no war with Japan, so there is no need to allocate additional forces and resources to strengthen the defense capability of the Far Eastern borders. Seers like Admiral Makarov were not taken seriously, they were considered cranks. All attention and strength, as before, was concentrated on the western border.

The strength of Japan was seriously underestimated. The past qualitative changes in the Japanese armed forces failed. At first they even thought that only the troops of the Amur District would cope with the Japanese. Then, in case of war, they decided to strengthen them with reserve corps from the Siberian and Kazan districts, and, finally, with better corps from the Kiev and Moscow districts. Port Arthur did not prepare for a long defense, did not create a powerful fortified area in the narrowest spot of the Liaodong Peninsula. The fleet was weakened by the division of forces: cruisers were based in Vladivostok, and the main forces - armadillos and a mine flotilla - were transferred to Port Arthur. The new base was shallow and completely unequipped, there were no docks and workshops, and minor damage could immobilize the battleships. The Russian generals since the wars with Napoleon, and as the Eastern and Turkish wars have shown well, have seriously degraded. Lost initiative, determination, became passive and fearful. These were generals of the world, not war.

Underestimation of the enemy played a role in the failure of Russian diplomacy. The Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs delayed negotiations with Japan on the division of spheres of influence in the Far East. Japan was not considered a great power and was not taken seriously. Therefore, when Tokyo informed our government of the severance of diplomatic relations, Petersburg did not even understand that this was a war and it was necessary to bring the army and navy in full combat readiness. And the attack of the Japanese destroyers of the Russian squadron in Port Arthur was a shock for Petersburg. As a result, the Russian army and navy paid with great blood for the unsuccessful policy of St. Petersburg in Asia.
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  1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 8 October 2019 04: 51 New
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    I am curious, but what else should we expect from the Japanese synomatogrpf?
    There is a request and national ideas, they solve them. But like us? See, Battleship Potemkin, Alexander Nevsky and others. The work of our filmmakers!
    1. Catfish 8 October 2019 05: 59 New
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      Good morning Vlad! hi

      No, why not expect anything? But Akiro Kurosawa shot the beautiful film "Dersu Uzala" and even our then Political Enlightenment was pleased, since the film was in the Union on a wide screen. And I can only judge films in general by looking at them, but in one you are right, my friend, there are clearly custom-made paintings. And those that you mentioned personally ordered Comrade. Stalin. But they were shot with talent, which is understandable to a layman.
      But the Japanese, God be with them, do not take off what they want, we still will not watch this canoe.
      As Stalin once said after the defeat of Japan in the 45th year, "Tsushima was paid handsomely!"
      Here are the goodies.
      1. Doliva63 8 October 2019 19: 05 New
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        Quote: Sea Cat
        Good morning Vlad! hi

        No, why not expect anything? But Akiro Kurosawa shot the beautiful film "Dersu Uzala" and even our then Political Enlightenment was pleased, since the film was in the Union on a wide screen. And I can only judge films in general by looking at them, but in one you are right, my friend, there are clearly custom-made paintings. And those that you mentioned personally ordered Comrade. Stalin. But they were shot with talent, which is understandable to a layman.
        But the Japanese, God be with them, do not take off what they want, we still will not watch this canoe.
        As Stalin once said after the defeat of Japan in the 45th year, "Tsushima was paid handsomely!"
        Here are the goodies.

        Look how I spoke Russian! And they said that Stalin was a Georgian. Well, like the ones on the market. Not?
        1. Catfish 8 October 2019 19: 36 New
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          Do you have interethnic communication only at the market level? In general, you would somehow explain the whole depth of your speech. I don’t know how Stalin is, but you obviously have a problem with the Russian language. It is called tongue-tied. hi
        2. Xnumx vis 8 October 2019 22: 09 New
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          Quote: Doliva63
          Look how I spoke Russian! And they said that Stalin was a Georgian. Well, like the ones on the market. Not?

          Zelensky and Waltzman Jews .. Type of Jewish moneylenders. Spree in Russian, and in front of the plebs in ukro mov.
    2. Uncle lee 8 October 2019 06: 11 New
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      Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
      what else should we expect from the Japanese synomatography?

      Raising the samurai spirit, which they are slowly eroding .....
      1. Lexus 8 October 2019 18: 17 New
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        Raising the samurai spirit, which they are slowly eroding .....

        Was there a "boy"? They themselves very much publicized.
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. voyaka uh 8 October 2019 19: 24 New
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      The Japanese, like the Russians, have a cult of achievement.
      Similar historical features of culture.
      And, of course, mass death during the achievement of the feat.
      Therefore, military films are similar in this.
      Movie endings: "Everyone died heroically, this is an example to follow."
  2. SOVIET UNION 2 8 October 2019 05: 13 New
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    << The Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs delayed negotiations with Japan on the division of spheres of influence in the Far East. >> The situation is just like today, about the peace treaty and the islands!
    1. StudentVK 8 October 2019 08: 06 New
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      compared garden horseradish and greenhouse tomato. That Japan is, to put it mildly, not today's))) It was the empire of Japan that was gaining power, and now it is rich but still American lackeys.
    2. Lexus 8 October 2019 18: 21 New
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      Only then did not our islands "divide".
  3. mmaxx 8 October 2019 05: 35 New
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    At least in terms of height 203, one can agree with the Japanese. The surrender of the High cannot be justified otherwise than betrayal. But the Japanese heroically took it and took it. Nothing but heroically get in there.
    1. Far B 8 October 2019 06: 17 New
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      Yes, in fact, a lot of things can be agreed.
      Most attention is paid to the battle of Liaoyang. At the same time, a stereotype was created, which can be noted in subsequent works: Japanese soldiers selflessly storm the well-trained Russian positions and die in masses from the fire of Russian machine guns. The number of machine guns is just fantastic. However, Japanese troops still heroically win.

      Indeed, our troops had a lot more machine guns, so the Japanese perished en masse when they massively pushed forward (Bushido, a completely different attitude towards death). And Kuropatkin, that of Liaoyang, that of Mukden made decisions on withdrawal, it is not clear at all on what grounds - both there and there one could continue to fight and even win. Well, about the handover by Stessel Port Arthur in general is a separate song.
      So yes, the Bolsheviks were right - the war was lost solely due to mediocre leadership.
      1. Alexander Suvorov 8 October 2019 08: 43 New
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        So there mediocrity sat on mediocrity and drove mediocrity. In addition to generals Kondratenko, Bely and Admiral Makarov, there are more of sensible commanders there and there is nobody to single out! But over both those and over others were mediocrity aki Stessel and Alekseev, respectively. Yes, Makarov was also hung on the neck in addition two more weights in the form of half-wits of the Grand Dukes Kiril and Boris. The best present for the Japanese would be hard to come up with. About Kuropatkin, I generally keep quiet.
        1. bober1982 8 October 2019 09: 31 New
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          Quote: Alexander Suvorov
          Yes, Makarov was also hung on the neck with two more weights in the form of half-wits of the Grand Dukes Kiril and Boris

          You are too strict in judging everyone, you have “walked around” everything, the Grand Duke Boris Vladimirovich you mentioned was in a very small rank, and Boris Vladimirovich’s actions did not have any effect on the course of the Russo-Japanese war, and Kuropatkin was not tormented with him.
          Grand Duke Kirill Vladimirovich was on the flagship Petropavlovsk at the time of his explosion, he survived, Makarov did not suffer with him.
        2. Hantengri 8 October 2019 09: 58 New
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          Quote: Alexander Suvorov
          About Kuropatkin, I generally keep quiet.

          From the Kuropatkin analysis of the combat readiness of the Japanese troops:
          In military schools they do not give any religious education and upbringing, there are no temples at schools, and future officers do not pray to the Most High either in grief or in joy. The same phenomenon is observed in the army. This is a great weakness of the Japanese army - without religion, without faith in the Providence, only individuals can survive the hardships of war, endure severe hardships and losses, but the masses cannot. In schools, instead of religion, higher morality is taught - love for the motherland, the emperor, respect for the family.

          It creeps into mind:
          "You are so ...
          On Saturdays or what? "(C) laughing
          ....
          1. Alexander Suvorov 8 October 2019 10: 14 New
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            It creeps into mind:
            "You are so ...
            On Saturdays, ali? "(C) laughing
            That's it! Outrageous mediocrity and incompetence. And starting from the king and his governors, ending with the generals. And in the commanders of a rank lower from the comrade to the regiment, also not everything was so rosy. As always, they tried to leave in Russian “maybe” and in Russian miraculous heroes, completely forgetting that there were no new Suvorovs on the horizon. And as you know, the herd of lions led by a ram will always lose the herd of sheep led by a lion!

            After rain on Thursday I’ll give another medal from the top ... lol
        3. Alexey RA 8 October 2019 12: 24 New
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          Quote: Alexander Suvorov
          In addition to generals Kondratenko, Bely and Admiral Makarov, there are more of sensible commanders there and there is nobody to single out! But over both those and over others were mediocrity aki Stessel and Alekseev, respectively. Yes, Makarov was also hung on the neck in addition two more weights in the form of half-wits of the Grand Dukes Kiril and Boris. The best present for the Japanese would be hard to come up with.

          Unfortunately, Admiral Makarov, if anything stood out from the bulk of the admirals, was an indefatigable energy, which often went to the detriment of the case. In fact, it was Makarov’s actions that led to the erosion of the Petropavlovsk EDB and the death of the admiral himself.
          It all started with Makarov’s template tactical trick: when approaching the Japanese EDBs, he pulled out an EDB 1 TOE and maneuvered at the GXNUMX exit from the harbor. As a result, the Japanese knew exactly how to lure the Russian EDB out of the harbor and where to put the mines.
          Along the way, the admiral was unable to establish the work of his own headquarters - as a result, what he threw “should be checked” (in response to a report on the discovery of unknown ships in the maneuvering area of ​​the squadron) and did not put on the dry lines of the order to conduct control trawling.
          Then the leapfrog began with the release of the ships: the “sleepy goddess” (who would be in time on duty), who was not standing in the aisle, who was breaking in to the base, was sent to the aid of the ship breaking through to the base, but the “Bayan”, who still had to leave the harbor. As a result, the help was late, the Kyrgyz Republic approached the Japanese MM.
          Then Makarov, in excitement, divided the forces of 1 TOE and went to the rescue of the “Bayan” with only part of the squadron (2 EDB, “Bayan” and armored decks) - and rolled straight to the main forces of Togo. If it were not for the desire of the Japanese commander to lure the Russian EDB into mines, the retreating group of Makarov would simply have been rolled out: the distance to the pursuing Japanese EDB during the withdrawal was from 40 to 50 kbt. But Makarov was carefully escorted to Port Arthur - and he did not deceive Togo's expectations, once again building the “eight”.
          The result is known - “Petropavlovsk” is sunk, “Victory” is damaged.
          1. Alexander Suvorov 8 October 2019 12: 31 New
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            Perhaps I agree with you! He got excited at the expense of Makarov. But at least he did not sit out in the harbor, but tried to at least somehow interfere with the actions of the Japanese fleet, although you can not argue somewhat stupidly, as you correctly pointed out.
            However, command the breakthrough of the 1st TOE in Vladivostok Makarov, and not Wittgeft, I think the result would be different. Although ... God knows how it would turn around there, then the grandmother said in two!
          2. Saxahorse 10 October 2019 00: 20 New
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            Quote: Alexey RA
            It all started with Makarov’s stereotyped tactical tactic: when approaching the Japanese EDBs, he pulled out an EDB 1 TOE and maneuvered at the GXNUMX exit

            The funny thing is that then the same "template technique" was exactly repeated by the Japanese, in the same place with twice the "best" result. It was necessary to establish protection of the base, so that no one would rummage under his nose.

            Quote: Alexey RA
            Unfortunately, Admiral Makarov, if anything stood out from the bulk of the admirals, is an irrepressible energy,

            Unfortunately, Makarov was the only RI fleet commander with at least some energy. Everyone else stupidly and corny sat and did nothing. Generally. All thoughts are only how to contrive and self-flood or intern. :(
            1. Alexey RA 10 October 2019 13: 30 New
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              Quote: Saxahorse
              The funny thing is that then the same "template technique" was exactly repeated by the Japanese, in the same place with twice the "best" result.

              Wow ... to plan and carry out the operation, designed exclusively for the template maneuvering of the enemy, and immediately get yourself on the same thing - this must be able to.

              But our fleet had a "silent reproach": its most productive ship (in terms of "quality" and displacement of the sunken enemy warships) has been a minzag for more than 100 years. wink
              Quote: Saxahorse
              Unfortunately, Makarov was the only RI fleet commander with at least some energy.

              Its energy, but for peaceful purposes. The problem is that Makarov organically could not do any routine - such as establishing a regular sentinel service (OVR) at the base or regular trawling. But it was she who could save him.
          3. sogdy 11 October 2019 04: 29 New
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            Quote: Alexey RA
            Unfortunately, Admiral Makarov, if anything, stood out from the bulk of the admirals

            Where did the firewood come from? Very familiar to 30m. Only then it was precisely known who, and their no relation to history.
          4. The comment was deleted.
      2. Hantengri 8 October 2019 20: 06 New
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        Quote: Far In
        Our troops really had a lot more machine guns

        Well, at the beginning of the war, our EMNIP had 8 pcs. The Japs have none. Those. through simple calculations, we get that, by the beginning of the war, ours had 8 times more machine guns. laughing
        1. Alexey RA 9 October 2019 16: 54 New
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          Quote: HanTengri
          Well, at the beginning of the war, our EMNIP had 8 pcs. The Japs have none. Those. through simple calculations, we get that, by the beginning of the war, ours had 8 times more machine guns.

          Actually - eight infinities times more. For 0 * 8 = 0. smile
    2. mmaxx 8 October 2019 16: 36 New
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      As an illustration. This picture was taken at the Russian cemetery in Lushun (former Port Arthur). Smeared people, here excuse me. In the background is High (height 203). Moreover, it is really far away. Unfortunately, due to lack of time, I did not get there. The Japanese made their memorial there and gave it to us (under the king). It would be interesting to see.
  4. Albatroz 8 October 2019 05: 55 New
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    The Russian army and navy paid with blood for the incompetent policy of St. Petersburg

    They faced the treacherous aggressor who attacked the eastern frontiers of the empire - and without declaring war. These are harsh facts.
    But cinematic propaganda is propaganda, especially when you consider that the louder all the "keep the thief" creaks, as a rule, the thief himself.
    1. Moore 8 October 2019 06: 44 New
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      Quote: Albatroz
      They stood to the death of the treacherous aggressor

      Alas, Nebogatov, Fok, Kuropatkin, etc. did not stand to death.
      1. StudentVK 8 October 2019 08: 16 New
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        Exactly. Already in the course of this war, an enormous gulf appeared between our imperial elite and the people. Because it was precisely the elite that did not provide our ground army with a new Suvorov, or, as a last resort, a bracketel. And the “macaques” showed what they can do: patience and work will grind everything. The same everyday, who took part in this war, said that it was the command that was simply not composed of professionals, but of those who would be more notable. The Russo-Japanese War found cancer of the 4th degree in the Russian Empire. Then we watch how our special services slammed all the strikes and uprisings of the first Russian revolution. Rot began to actively fill everything and everything.
        1. Andrey NM 8 October 2019 12: 18 New
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          Quote: StudentVK
          Already in the course of this war, an enormous gulf appeared between our imperial elite and the people.

          Here are excerpts from the diary of Nicholas II. The war is coming! The squadron is dead! And here - horseback riding, breakfast, riding a pond ... And no hints of military councils, meetings, discussion of action plans, etc.
          May 17th. Tuesday.
          Heavy and contradictory news continued to come regarding a failed battle in the Tsushima Strait. Had three reports. We walked together. The weather was wonderful, hot. We drank tea and dined on the balcony. In the evening, he took Bulygin and Trenev for a long time.
          May 18th. Wednesday
          Wondrous weather. After the report, he received 90 officers who graduated from Mikh [Ailovskaya] art. academy and officer art. school. Sergey had breakfast. Misha came to say goodbye, because in the evening he was leaving for Berlin for the wedding of the Crown Prince and Cecile. Did a good ride on horseback. It’s hard, painful, sad at heart. We had lunch on the balcony and rode in Pavlovsk.
          19 of May. Thursday.
          Now the terrible news of the death of almost the entire squadron in a two-day battle has finally been confirmed. Rozhdestvensky wounded himself captured !!
          The day was wonderful, which added even more sadness to the soul. Had three reports. Breakfast Petyusha. I went on horseback. Lunch: Olga, Petya, Voronov - com. Primor. drag. regiment and his wife.
          May 20th. Friday.
          It was really hot. In the morning they heard thunder in the distance. Took many. She had breakfast A.A. Naryshkina. Took Trepov. Walked and rode in a kayak. At 7 o’clock. the three of us went with Petya to Gatchina. We dined and rode together in the menagerie. Returned to 11.
          May 21st. Saturday.
          Been busy all morning. Breakfast Fredericks. Walked with Alix in the warm rain. Later the weather got better, rode on the pond. We had lunch together. Long took the old nobleman Paskhalov.
          1. Alexander Suvorov 8 October 2019 12: 49 New
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            Here are excerpts from the diary of Nicholas II. The war is coming! The squadron is dead! And here - horseback riding, breakfast, riding a pond ... And no hints of military councils, meetings, discussion of action plans, etc.
            Bravo...! This is what best characterizes this misunderstanding on the throne.

            Only do not show it to Olgovich, otherwise the poor fellow will fall into a fit of loyalty ... laughing
            1. Andrey NM 8 October 2019 14: 24 New
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              And this is the speech of the Nicholas II delegation of workers after the 9 of January 1905:
              I called you so that you could personally hear My word from Me and directly transmit it to your comrades. The unfortunate events with the sad but inevitable consequences of the unrest came from the fact that you let yourself be deceived and deceived by the traitors and enemies of our country. Inviting you to go to submit a petition to me about your needs, they raised you to a rebellion against Me and My Government, forcibly tearing you from honest work at a time when all true-Russian people should work together to overcome our stubborn external enemy . Strikes and rebellious gatherings only arouse an unemployed crowd in such riots that have always forced and will continue to force the authorities to resort to military force, and this inevitably causes innocent victims. I know that the life of a worker is not easy. Much needs to be improved and streamlined, but have patience. You yourself honestly understand that you should be fair to your owners and take into account the conditions of our industry. But in a rebellious crowd to declare to Me about my needs is criminal. In My cares about working people, I take care that everything possible to improve their life will be done and to provide them with legal ways to clarify their needs that have arisen. I believe in the honest feelings of working people and in their unwavering devotion to Me, and therefore I forgive them their guilt. Now return to your peaceful work, blessed, get down to business with your comrades, and may God help you.
              And he said that he was against a reduction in the time of the working day, otherwise the workers would have free time to engage in politics. The newspapers wrote that the workers were pleased with the meeting and went home happy ...
              1. Trapperxnumx 8 October 2019 15: 12 New
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                Quote: Andrew NM
                And this is the speech of the Nicholas II delegation of workers after the 9 of January 1905:

                Sorry, what's wrong with this excerpt? Did he call someone a dirty pig threatened to kill every second? No, on the contrary, he spoke of forgiveness and the need to rally in the face of a common threat. Quite a normal speech in the spirit of the times.
                1. Andrey NM 8 October 2019 16: 24 New
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                  Quote: Trapper7
                  Sorry, what's wrong with this excerpt?

                  It seems that the words are correct, but ... The delegation included workers who did not take part in the unrest and did not particularly understand why they were brought to the king. The king gave a short monologue, turned around and left. The "happy" workers were also deployed and "left."
                  Here it was necessary to explain somewhat more broadly. Around the same time, as a result of the "competent" domestic policy of Nicholas II, unrest occurred in Finland and the Baltic states. In January, revolutionaries took power in Tukums. There were battles with government detachments with the dead, wounded, prisoners, etc. General Khruzhenkov managed to amicably agree with the revolutionaries (rebels, you can call them anything now) to lay down their arms, dismiss people and get out of the city. He reported upstairs that, at the request of the residents, he did not shell the city with artillery, and there were not enough shells, he decided to save. To which Nicholas II imposed a resolution that the absence of shells was not the reason, the city had to be crushed. Well, then it went all over Russia ... But in 1905 the situation did not ripen, the tsar brought it to its logical end by 1917.
                  1. sogdy 11 October 2019 04: 46 New
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                    Quote: Andrew NM
                    It seems the words are correct, but ...

                    Have you read Liberians? Nu-nu, they will tell you the truth ... how come.
                    Strikes, "marches" and direct uprisings at defense enterprises took place from January 1905 to November 1907. Damage to the military economy (and all military operations, alas, continue to be built on the economy) exceeded the losses on the Japanese front by 2 times. So said one Ulyanov-Lenin.
                    This sad experience was taken into account during the Second World War. You can complain about the actions of the NKVD, but get ready for even more severe ones.
                2. sibiryouk 8 October 2019 16: 31 New
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                  And the fact that this very king interprets the petition to the king as a riot and anti-government actions! It’s about as if now we recognize tax evasion as treason!
                  1. sogdy 11 October 2019 04: 47 New
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                    Quote: sibiryouk
                    It’s about as if now we recognize tax evasion as treason!

                    Is that not so? Arguments, please, not drool.
            2. Trapperxnumx 8 October 2019 15: 09 New
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              Quote: Alexander Suvorov
              Bravo...! This is what best characterizes this misunderstanding on the throne.

              Excuse me, do you keep a diary? And what are you recording there? Or you don’t lead and it means ... It means that it means nothing. A diary is personal notes of a person who made them for himself. And you are waiting there for a detailed plan for the arrangement of Russia.
              1. Ponchik78 8 October 2019 20: 45 New
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                Well, certainly there were no entries on Bloody Sunday; - "He walked in the park with Alex. He shot a raven. He killed two."
                1. sogdy 11 October 2019 04: 56 New
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                  Quote: Ponchik78
                  no entries on Bloody Sunday

                  Please numbers. How many died, from whom (especially those crushed in a landfill and killed by thieves) - and compare with "less significant events."
                  An empty chatter is empty. Impact on emotions - ...?
              2. The comment was deleted.
            3. Mikhail3 8 October 2019 16: 38 New
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              What exactly is in this diary for you
              Quote: Alexander Suvorov
              characterizes this misunderstanding on the throne.

              ? The fact that the tsar did not write in the diary of secret state information and did not conduct analytics there, given the fact that many people could read his diary? Or the fact that he strictly adhered to the accepted form of presentation - always described the weather? Nicholas 2 was indeed a weak king, poorly suited to hard times. But what would you like from his diary? Or scold anyhow scold?
              The Russian Empire reacted to the Japanese extremely neglected. What, in fact, was the Japanese way out? What should they do? Nobody began to listen to them, they did not conduct negotiations, that is, the peaceful way to resolve the conflict was completely rejected by Russia. There were two ways left - to abandon the Japanese Empire, because without the resources that the Japanese then tried to seize, and without new lands, the Empire was impossible. And the second is to fight.
              The Japanese had no fights with a serious adversary, no one, including themselves, knew what the Japanese Empire was worth. So they attacked, because they believed in themselves and wanted to declare themselves in the world.
              Sorrow causes only a propaganda approach, both from the Japanese and the author of this article. Is ALL propaganda always and everywhere obliged to be stupid and deceitful? That is, smart people are generally ignored by the state, no one talks to us, and no one hopes for the mind of the people. Yearning...
              1. sogdy 11 October 2019 05: 00 New
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                Quote: Mikhail3
                Nicholas 2 was indeed a weak king, poorly suited to hard times.

                Are you sure this is your valid opinion? Vaschet, it was a very strong Emperor in very difficult conditions. And the actions of the Committee could be criticized by Kropotkin, but not you.
                1. Mikhail3 11 October 2019 16: 39 New
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                  Everyone who lives in the country that she administers or has ruled is entitled to criticize the highest authority. Since we are completely dependent on this very country. It is up to the authorities to see that criticism does not turn into betrayal ... which, in fact, happened in that Russia. And on the other hand, criticism is a powerful feedback, drowning out which is the way to the death of the Power ... which is happening now in many ways.
                  On the qualities of Nicholas 2 as a ruler ... Alas, THIS is not my opinion. This is not an opinion at all, it is an assessment according to the only applicable criterion at this level of management. According to the result. The country has perished. Its ruler completely and completely deserved the execution from Chad and the household, because for an administrative collapse of this level the punishment is very proportionate. Because of him, millions of people fell into the ground ...
          2. Trapperxnumx 8 October 2019 15: 07 New
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            Quote: Andrew NM
            And no hints of military advice,

            but what about:
            Took Trepov.

            Had three reports.

            or here
            19 of May. Thursday.
            Now the terrible news of the death of almost the entire squadron in a two-day battle has finally been confirmed. Rozhdestvensky wounded himself captured !!

            where did these rumors come from? Did they broadcast it on the radio? Have you read in the newspaper?
            It seems to me that one should not regard personal diaries as something documentary. Stalin didn’t keep diaries at all, it doesn’t mean that he was messing around. And if he did, then he could very well make notes there, "Vasily came, they talked for a long time about his behavior."
            Nikolai is a living person and had every right to write down everything he sees fit with his personal diary. But he didn’t know that later all sorts of people with hot hearts and clean hands would rummage through it
            1. Andrey NM 8 October 2019 16: 45 New
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              Quote: Trapper7
              but what about:
              Took Trepov.

              Trepov at that time commanded a separate corps of gendarmes. In general, he had no relation to the leadership of military operations in the east. Bulygin - Minister of Internal Affairs, was not for long.
              I believe that in these cases the high command gathers, the General Staff works, issues of military planning are resolved, etc. Well, except that strategic planning was discussed with the "old nobleman Paschalov," or in the Menagerie ... And there was a diary entry, I liked: "Today I was on duty on the shelf. We played cricket with the officers and drank champagne." I’m thinking how the bandage of the duty officer did not fly off?
              1. sogdy 11 October 2019 05: 11 New
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                Quote: Andrew NM
                Trepov at that time commanded a separate corps of gendarmes.

                And yet what did Trepov do? Are these ideological sabotage at military enterprises?
                By the way, contemporaries reflect Bloody Sunday a little differently than now. And completely agree with the execution. "Students at Tiananmen Square." They didn’t consider how many of these “peaceful” wipers and city guards were killed (brutally!)? According to reports - 140 along the route. And they defeated several (more than 10) sites.
                Participation in the "procession" and its support until the 38th were aggravating circumstances, as sabotage in favor of the enemy.
                1. Andrey NM 11 October 2019 09: 19 New
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                  Quote: sogdy
                  And yet what did Trepov do? Are these ideological sabotage at military enterprises?

                  You are right here. But what did Trepov have to do with command and control in the Far East? Do not confuse the command and control of the troops and the squadron with the swaying of the situation inside the country. By the way, the "comrade" Gapon is a product of the Tsarist secret police. And the secret police missed this abscess. Trepov here, by the way, is absolutely not to blame. In early January, he was only appointed to this post, but in general he had to go to the Far East to the front. But then again, what benefit would he bring there? He commanded the troops? Took part in hostilities before? The man was engaged in police functions.
                  The January events of 1905 indicate that the authorities in the country were not deeply concerned with the situation in the country. And people are always used to seize power. The correct slogans are voiced and a crowd is prepared under these correct slogans. But you need to understand that a well-fed crowd will not go to the barricades, therefore, the situation in the country should also be appropriate. And to this situation, the current authorities bring the country. Maidan - as an example. And now we have the same isolation.

                  In general, I cited the situation of January 1905 in order to show how Nicholas II reacted to the situation in the country. And that in January, that in May, he showed complete infantilism and showed his absolute ignorance and isolation from the real situation.
            2. Andrey NM 9 October 2019 05: 21 New
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              Quote: Trapper7
              where did these rumors come from? Did they broadcast it on the radio? Have you read in the newspaper?

              Telegraph communication between Japan and Europe was established as early as 1872. A cable was laid through the territory of Russia. Europe was "entangled" with telegraph cables in the middle of the 19th century. Radio communication in 1905 was still in its infancy, but it was already working. During the Russian-Japanese war, this type of communication was actively used. Interestingly, both Russia and Japan used the communication channel from Europe to Japan. And each in his area of ​​responsibility intercepted telegrams and, as far as possible, decoded them. Almost everything that came from our General Staff to the east was read by the Japanese, and all telegrams of the Japanese were read by ours.
      2. Albatroz 8 October 2019 19: 46 New
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        Alas, Nebogatov, Fok, Kuropatkin, etc. did not stand to death.

        The army and navy do not consist of 3 persons.
        And thousands stood
        1. Andrey NM 9 October 2019 05: 31 New
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          Quote: Albatroz
          The army and navy do not consist of 3 persons.
          And thousands stood

          There is a saying: "The army of rams led by a lion will always triumph over the army of lions headed by a ram."
          It seems from Napoleon.
          1. Albatroz 9 October 2019 07: 56 New
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            I do not know who you consider rams)))
            But 3 of these individuals accounted for dozens of worthy generals and admirals: Kondratenko, Bely, Keller, Vitgeft, Makarov, Gorbatovsky and other-other)
            1. Andrey NM 9 October 2019 18: 58 New
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              This is a saying, or rather a kind of allegory, because you all perfectly understood. This is how today some "gentlemen" say that the USSR won the Second World War in defiance of the leadership. If you are smart and experienced a million times, but if you are led by mediocrity, and you have to follow the orders of mediocrity, then what will all this lead to? And you will not fulfill the order - the tribunal.
              With the arrival of S.O. Makarov, the defense began to straighten out, but unfortunately, it did not last long. The battleship "Petropavlovsk" was blown up by a mine and took with it many lives of sailors, including Makarov, as well as the great battle painter Vasily Vereshchagin. Remember his "Apotheosis of War"? A Makarov cap was exhibited at the Naval Museum in St. Petersburg. All that is left of him.
              1. Albatroz 9 October 2019 20: 35 New
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                And WWII, your fetish, also lacked Nebogatovyh and Fokov.
                Only in all wars are there still more Kondratenoks and Nikitins. Well, yes you understand me
                I hope wink
                1. Andrey NM 10 October 2019 07: 55 New
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                  Quote: Albatroz
                  And WWII, your fetish

                  Honestly, I did not understand your expression. Anyway.
                  Unfortunately, we always have “not rich and foki” in power, and when a roasted rooster pecks in one place and there is enough time, the Foki begin to put forward “Nikitins,” “Makarovs,” and “Rokossovskys” to correct the situation and cover their back seats. " But when everything calms down, the Focks push them again.
                  1. Albatroz 10 October 2019 08: 06 New
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                    I wanted to say that you trudge from the Second World War, idealize her and compare everything with her as in that joke.
  5. Edward Vashchenko 8 October 2019 06: 55 New
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    The Japanese really didn’t take into account the losses, those who “put all their hats on”, but the lack of a competent leadership in the Russian army did not make it possible to use this enemy flaw:
    “The Japanese have Togo, and we have nobody”
  6. Olgovich 8 October 2019 07: 00 New
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    Russia fought at a distance of several THOUSAND kilometers from the theater of operations to the main Russia and bases, Japan fought at a distance of several hundred kilometers from Japan, i.e., practically at home.

    That's the whole story about the cause of the defeat ....
    1. StudentVK 8 October 2019 08: 29 New
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      In principle, I agree, BUT I personally from school was interested in this war and its premises. And I can tell you with confidence that in this case our favorite proverb definitely works: do not blame the face for a crooked face. THE WHOLE land general who took part in the Russian-Japanese war was not just not competent, but compiled on the basis of who was born. In the fleet, the situation was much better, but still the fleet’s base was not ready for war. Our general staff informed the emperor and, above all, the Minister of War about the reactive modernization of the Japanese fleet and army, and that we also need to increase our power in the Far East at a Stakhanov pace and carry out military reform in the army (I mean that the reform began to take place only after the defeat in the Russian Japanese war, and not before how our general staffers advised back in 1899). The General Staff spoke said spoke reportedly, but they did not listen to him properly, and therefore they lost that war. So about the kilometer you do not need to say so here with seals.
      1. Senior seaman 8 October 2019 11: 34 New
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        Quote: StudentVK
        THE WHOLE land general who took part in the Russian-Japanese war was not just not competent, but compiled on the basis of who was born.

        Hmm, Kuropatkin from chief officer children, the grandson of a serf.
        Linevich from the Chernigov nobles is a descendant of the Cossack centurion.
        Zasulich - from seedy noblemen.
        Mishchenko from the Cossacks.
        Stackelberg, Kaulbars and Bildering, of course, are barons, but God knows what noble people are by the standards of the Russian aristocracy.
        In the fleet too. Makarov is the boatswain's son. Rozhdestvensky is the son of a doctor.
        Who is "more generous"?
        Our General Staff informed the emperor and, above all, the Minister of War about the reactive modernization of the Japanese fleet and army

        The General Staff, as a separate organization, appeared only in the 1905 year. And before that - the General Staff Headquarters, which was in charge of personnel matters.
        1. StudentVK 8 October 2019 22: 20 New
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          You carefully read my koment)? I said about the fleet that everything was better there. And about chief officer children, this is not a non-commissioned officer child) Yes, not a son of a very noble family, but I'm afraid to lie about the recollections of one of the adjutant officers, Kuropatkin, that talented officers, and so to say, court factions, occupied the highest posts. After the failure of our generals during the Crimean War, a sip was only during Alexander 2: staples, etc. And then everything went down to the first world. The fleet only had good top command personnel, but just as during the Crimean War we did not provide it with new and qualitatively new ships. It was like we had basically only a sailing fleet, while our opponents had overwhelmingly steamboats. And our army had a shotgun rifle and the Europeans and Turks rifled fittings. "no one to blame if the face is crooked"
          1. Senior seaman 9 October 2019 09: 20 New
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            Quote: StudentVK
            You carefully read my koment)?

            But what about. especially this part
            THE WHOLE land general who took part in the Russian-Japanese war was not just not competent, but compiled on the basis of who was born.

            And brought you a list of the most "noble"
            Quote: StudentVK
            And about the chief officer children, so it's not non-commissioned officer children)

            N-yes, in principle, you can end this discussion with you, because ...
            Anyway. So, chief officers' children, these are just them - children of lower ranks who have served as officers. And call these people "noble" ...
            Quote: StudentVK
            After the failure in our generals during the Crimean War, a sip was only during Alexander 2: staples, etc.

            One small question. Why were the losses of the allies in the Crimean company higher than in the backward Russian army, led by "disastrous generals", in the Russian-Turkish exactly the opposite?
            And in general, a lot of officers participated in the Russo-Japanese War, covered in the glory of “Skobelev’s orderlies” (it’s not only Kuropatkin, there were many of them) and, interestingly, not a single one showed himself. It’s just that people accustomed to waging colonial wars suddenly ran into, if not the best, but regular army.
            In fact, it was under Alexander the Liberator that the completely failed reforms of Milyutin took place, which, for whatever merit is unknown, were later declared the "best minister of war of all time", and during the reign of his son Peacemaker, this condition was already not brilliant, he froze Vannovsky.
            Quote: StudentVK
            It was like we had basically only a sailing fleet, while our opponents had overwhelmingly steamboats. And our army had a shotgun rifle and the Europeans and Turks rifled fittings. "no one to blame if the face is crooked"

            Pull up the materiel, then continue.
            Just for reference. In 1854, the Allied Squadron at the World Cup had 19 battleships. Of these, steam ... - 3 (three!), 2 among the British and one from the Franks. Moreover, with a sufficiently powerful machine (600 forces) there was only one - the 90 cannon “Agamemnon”, and the “Charlemagne” (70 cannons 350l \ s) and Sans-Pareil (80 cannons and 450l / s) were remade from ordinary screw ships .
          2. Saxahorse 10 October 2019 00: 28 New
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            Quote: StudentVK
            I said about the fleet that everything was better there.

            In fact, in the Navy everything was almost an order of magnitude worse. And the maritime qualification was introduced in the 1880s because most of the "sailors" of that time were farther than knee-deep and never went to sea. True, the qualification results are still not pleased ..

            "they wanted the best, but it turned out as always" (c) :(
            1. Senior seaman 11 October 2019 17: 42 New
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              In fact, things were much worse in the army. Officers who served in combat posts, as a rule, were inferior in career to their colleagues who switched (okay to staff) to other types of service.
              Just as an example. Brusilov A.A., - the last combat post - squadron commander in a dragoon regiment, then moved to an officer cavalry school (in fact - led horse riding in the army) and never commanded a regiment or brigade, and received a division only under the patronage of his former students.
              Rediger A.F., - last combat post - company commander in the Semenovsky regiment. he graduated from the academy of the General Staff, switched to clerical work and grew up to the Minister of War.
              Moreover, these are still successful examples, but how many were unsuccessful?
              1. Saxahorse 11 October 2019 22: 07 New
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                Quote: Senior Sailor
                Moreover, these are still successful examples, but how many were unsuccessful?

                There was at least a theoretical opportunity in the army to attract commanders with real experience to a serious matter. At least from the Caucasus, even from Turkestan, and among the reserve regiments there were at least experienced commanders. In the Navy, the qualification in general, almost completely, excluded the presence of a commander with many years of experience on board. He served as a commander a bit, that's all .. enough .. you want-you don't want to blow ashore, the next one in the line is knocking on the door. This is the problem of a terrible overabundance of officers in this noble sinecure - the Baltic Fleet.

                But in real life between their own, the naval certainly knew who was worth what. It is not surprising that in just a couple of days Makarov found a replacement for the three commanders of the battleships whom he demanded to be fired after the first time he went to sea. Unfortunately I managed to change only one. And it seems like Essen did not give reason to regret this demand of the deceased admiral.
                1. Senior seaman 12 October 2019 09: 03 New
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                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  commanders with real experience. Though from the Caucasus, even from Turkestan

                  These are the very commanders with "real combat experience" who lost in the Russo-Japanese War, since their experience in colonial campaigns proved to be inapplicable in the war with a trained army trained in Europe.
                  Do you know what a "detachment of three combat arms" is? A feature of “commanders with“ real combat experience ”, like Kuropatkin. In the conditions of shortage of troops in vast territories, it was done like this: a battalion from one regiment is taken and becomes the backbone of a future expedition, and as much as possible can be pulled from different parts. Where is the company, where half, where there is a squadron, where there are fifty, where is the battery, where is the sapper team. Against those who did not have a clue about the discipline and tactics of the natives, this worked. But there wasn’t with the Japanese.
                  And after all, the first bell rang out in the Russian-Turkish, but no - it did not reach the Skobelev’s orderlies.
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  And it seems like Essen did not give reason to regret this demand of the deceased admiral.

                  It is hard to come up with a less successful staffing solution. The most dashing cruiser commander to command the most slow-moving battleship squadron!
                  By the way, Sevastopol was already one of the best in combat training. See the results of artillery contests before the war. Only Poltava is better.
                  1. Saxahorse 12 October 2019 19: 43 New
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                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    Do you know what a "detachment of three combat arms" is? Chip "commanders with" real combat experience ", like Kuropatkin.

                    I don’t understand what you said. Kuropatkin’s real experience is difficult to suspect. Professor and theorist, famous and popular at court. Like a commander full zero.

                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    By the way, Sevastopol was already one of the best in combat training.

                    However, I recall once again that Makarov did not just demand the replacement of three out of seven armadillo commanders. Quite a little less than half .. Dangerous maneuvering, collision, aground .. And all this for just one access to the sea. Half of the fleet commanders of the Republic of Ingushetia, even with the control of their ship, coped with great difficulty. About that there is something to show in battle and there is no question.

                    If you forgot, let me remind you that in this exit Sevastopol encountered Peresvet. Both ships received noticeable damage. Moreover, both commanders were "good" ..
                    1. Senior seaman 13 October 2019 14: 18 New
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                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      I don’t understand what you said.

                      But this is just not surprising.
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      Kuropatkin’s real experience is difficult to suspect.

                      You will not suspect you of knowledge of the subject of discussion :))) And Alexei Nikolaevich was fought for the most part. Two orders of St. George as if hinting.
                      1867-1868 - hiking in Bukhara.
                      After graduating from the General Staff Academy (1871-1874) on a business trip abroad, during which he participated in a military expedition to the Sahara.
                      1875-1876 - Kokand campaign.
                      1877-1878 Russian-Turkish war. Kuropatkin Chief of Staff of the Skobelevsky 16th Division. (Lovcha, Pleven, Sheinovo). near Plevna - wounded
                      After the war, again in Turkestan, he commanded a brigade.
                      1880-1881 - The second Akhal-Tek expedition. Colonel Kuropatkin, commanding the assault convoy, first burst into Geok-Tepe.
                      After the war, the commander and commander of the troops in the Trans-Caspian region.
                      In general, in the 1904 year it is difficult to find a general with great military and administrative experience, and so that sand would not pour out of him.

                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      If you forgot, let me remind you that in this exit Sevastopol encountered Peresvet.

                      You would have to learn the materiel yourself, and then remind others :))
                      Then “Relight” hit “Sevastopol” in the stern and damaged the screw. That is, Boysman was to blame, and Chernyshev fell under the hand.
                      And the biggest mess was going on at the Tsesarevich (which, of course, is the new ship), but his commander got the biggest promotion - he became the head of the port (admiral's post).
                      1. Saxahorse 13 October 2019 19: 56 New
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                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        1867-1868 - hiking in Bukhara.

                        You are partially right about Kuropatkin, in his youth he fought. Although 1904 minus 1868 this 37 years have passed. It is strange that the sand has not yet begun to crumble. laughing

                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        You would have to learn the materiel yourself, and then remind others :))

                        I reminded you that the RI fleet commanders did not know how to control their ship .. Who overtook, who pruned is not so important ..

                        Once again, for those in the tank: laughing
                        Of the four cruisers of the Vladivostok detachment, half, Bogatyr and Gromoboy, were killed by their own commanders. Planted on the stones. Rudnev, at the first turn, stuck his Varangian into the island. We just talked about Port Arthur - a collision, aground, it's all in an elementary situation, just a training trip to the sea.

                        Once again, I recall the obvious and long recognized - the naval qualification ruled out the presence of experienced commanders in the RI fleet. The general level of the senior commanding staff of the Republic of Ingushetia was just below the plinth. And this is not the result of some kind of fabulous “Russian inability to sea”, but a direct result of the more than disgusting staging of the naval service in the Russian Empire.
                      2. Senior seaman 13 October 2019 20: 26 New
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                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        You are partially right about Kuropatkin, in his youth he fought. Although 1904 minus 1868 it is 37 years have passed.

                        Selective Vision? Just 68 year is the first campaign, and so he managed to take part in almost all military conflicts in Russia. And under the Peacemaker, we did not fight ...
                        But in general, this was the answer to your phrase:
                        There was at least a theoretical opportunity in the army to attract commanders with real experience to a serious matter. Though from the Caucasus, even from Turkestan

                        That attracted ...
                        collision, aground, it's all in an elementary situation, just a training trip to the sea.

                        Typically, training exits are not conducted on fairways that have just been cleared in minefields. Again, I did not argue with the insufficient training of the Russian sailors, unfortunately, had the place to be. The conversation was about a specific personnel decision by Makarov. As for me, not the best. I set out my arguments.
                        By the way, the Japanese, too, lost their ships in navigational accidents, collisions, bombings on mines and the like.
                      3. Lannan Shi 13 October 2019 20: 38 New
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                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        It’s just 68 that this is the first campaign, and so he managed to take part in almost all military conflicts in Russia.

                        Bucephalus also passed a lot of things. And with someone for a couple! But ... Sasha the Macedonian was smart enough to use the horse only under the saddle. But in the RIA, the era of Nikki ... Ishak as a com-front, is more likely the rule than excluded.
                      4. Saxahorse 13 October 2019 20: 40 New
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                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        The conversation was about a specific personnel decision by Makarov. As for me, not the best.

                        For me it’s the opposite. Peresvet, who led the flight of armadillos in the Yellow Sea, Tsesarevich abandoned by his commander in Qingdao, is all a good reason to regret strongly that Makarov did not have time to really shake up the senior command staff of the 1st TOE.
                      5. Senior seaman 13 October 2019 21: 50 New
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                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Peresvet, who led the flight of the battleships

                        Well, Boyceman has something to do with it? There, so you know, the whole admiral commanded.
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Cesarevich abandoned by his commander

                        He was actually wounded in the head and arm.
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        strongly regret that Makarov did not have time to really shake up the senior command staff of the 1th TOE.

                        At the "Tsesarevich" just managed.
                        And again, returning to your initial thesis.
                        In fact, in the Navy everything was almost an order of magnitude worse.

                        Actually - exactly the opposite. No matter how the blatant mess was going on in the fleet (and what was, it was), in the Manchurian army - just the finish!
                        Do not believe me, read the memoirs of the participants. Druzhinin, Veresaev, Denikin ...
                      6. Saxahorse 13 October 2019 22: 03 New
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                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        In fact - exactly the opposite. No matter how the blatant mess was going on in the fleet (and what was, it was), in the Manchurian army - just the finish!

                        I do not argue, everywhere the mess was terrible. I only draw your attention that the mess in the fleet was not an accident, but was organized and carefully prepared by previous organizational decisions. The fleet could not win the war, even in theory, the destruction of its combat capability was systemic.
                      7. Senior seaman 13 October 2019 22: 07 New
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                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        I only draw your attention that the mess in the fleet was not an accident, but was organized and carefully prepared by previous organizational decisions.

                        I repeat. In the Army, everything is the same, and from the time of Milyutin. And under Vannovsky, this stupid system is also frozen.
                  2. Senior seaman 13 October 2019 21: 59 New
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                    Quote: Saxahorse
                    For me it’s the opposite.

                    That is, to appoint the most dashing commander to the slowest battleship - is this normal?
                  3. Saxahorse 13 October 2019 22: 18 New
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                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    That is, to appoint the most dashing commander to the slowest battleship - is this normal?

                    More than normal. Please note that the most “slow-moving” battleship in the battle in the Yellow Sea managed to keep up with the squadron and took part in the battle in a quite noticeable way. The commander demonstrated perseverance and aggressiveness, which was rare among the caperans of the Russian squadron.
                  4. Senior seaman 13 October 2019 22: 24 New
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                    And if they gave him the "Bayan"?
                    Purely hypothetically.
                  5. Saxahorse 13 October 2019 22: 31 New
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                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    And if they gave him the "Bayan"?
                    Purely hypothetically.

                    I think the result would be better. But if Viren at that time still somehow managed, then the commander of Sevastopol is clearly gone. Gagging of course ..
  • Alexander Suvorov 8 October 2019 08: 52 New
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    Russia fought at a distance of several THOUSAND kilometers from the theater of operations to the main Russia and bases, Japan fought at a distance of several hundred kilometers from Japan, i.e., practically at home.

    That's the whole story about the cause of the defeat ....
    Olgovich, well, brost already has his nonsense. On Khalkhin-Gol and Hassan, and in the 45th year, the distances were the same, but the command and leadership of the country is not an example of better quality than with your adorable bloody Nicholas.
    The reasons for the defeat lie in the mediocrity of Alekseev, Kuropatkin, Stark, Vitgeft, and the Christmas betrayal of Stessel, Fock and Nebogatov. And in the first place, the blood king’s worthlessness and his inability to prepare the country for war.
    1. Olgovich 8 October 2019 09: 30 New
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      Quote: Alexander Suvorov
      . On Khalkhin Gol and Hassan

      do not compare .. with a finger are two different things yes
      Quote: Alexander Suvorov
      , and in the 45th year the distances were the same

      What, in 1905, Japan, too, basically, fought with the United States? lol
      Quote: Alexander Suvorov
      but the command and leadership of the country is not an example of more Quality than with your beloved Nicholas the bloody

      Only 50 years before the REV, leg first Russian man entered the Golden Horn birch.
      The USSR came to the ready.
      Do we remember "quality" - with starvation and cannibalism 1933, 1947? To the Emperor, oh, how far ..
      Quote: Alexander Suvorov
      Causes defeats lie in the mediocrity of Alekseev, Kuropatkin, Stark, Vitgeft, and the Christmas betrayal of Stessel, Fock and Nebogatov.

      See above
      1. Alexander Suvorov 8 October 2019 09: 53 New
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        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
        . On Khalkhin Gol and Hassan

        don’t compare .. with a finger are different things yes
        Yes?! And what is the difference, do not find it difficult to explain?
        What, in 1905, Japan, too, basically, fought with the United States? lol
        If the USSR had not defeated the Kwantung Army in less than a month, the United States could have fought with Japan for several more years, even despite the nuclear bombing of the Mikado, it surrendered only after the defeat in Manchuria and Sakhalin.
        Only 50 years before the REV, the foot of the first Russian man entered the birch of the Golden Horn.
        The USSR came to the ready.
        And what was that "finished" there?
        1. Olgovich 8 October 2019 10: 04 New
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          Quote: Alexander Suvorov
          Yes?! And in what differenceDo not find it difficult to explain?

          1905 and -1939 Mr.
          Quote: Alexander Suvorov
          If the USSR had not defeated the Kwantung Army in less than a month, the United States could have fought with Japan for several more years, even despite the nuclear bombing of the Mikado, it surrendered only after the defeat in Manchuria and Sakhalin.

          What, in 1905, Japan, too, PRIMARILY, fought with the USA (as in 1945)?
          Quote: Alexander Suvorov
          And what was that "finished" there?

          Russian developed land: with population, ports, railway, museums and theaters.

          See, for example. History Vladivostok.
          1. Alexander Suvorov 8 October 2019 10: 19 New
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            1905 and -1939
            This is not an answer, it is an excuse, and not fresh, i.e. rotten ...
            What, in 1905, Japan, too, basically, fought with the United States (as in 1945)?
            What role did the United States play in the ground operation in Manchuria? You can not answer, their role was ZERO!
            Russian developed land: with population, ports, railway, museums and theaters.
            Which of the above helped the USSR deal with the Japanese in less than a month? Let me guess ... Probably museums with theaters ... laughing
            1. Olgovich 8 October 2019 10: 41 New
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              Quote: Alexander Suvorov
              This is not an answer, it is an excuse, and not fresh, i.e. rotten ..

              didn't get it? Your problems.
              Quote: Alexander Suvorov
              What role did the United States play in the ground operation in Manchuria?

              they destroyed the BEST yap. troops and their weapons. Beyond Manchuria
              Quote: Alexander Suvorov
              That from the above helped the USSR deal with the Japanese in less than a month?

              Russian developed land: with population, ports, railway, museums and theaters.
              1. Alexander Suvorov 8 October 2019 10: 55 New
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                didn't get it? Your problems.
                As always, the answer is about nothing! request Bored girls ... recourse
              2. rusin 8 October 2019 15: 09 New
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                In November 1904, the Georgian Party of Socialist Federalists, the Party of Socialist Revolutionaries, the Polish Socialist Party, the Polish National League, the Finnish Party of Active Resistance, the Latvian Social Democratic Labor Party, the Armenian Revolutionary Federation, the Liberation Union took part in the conference of opposition groups in Paris, where the "Paris Agreement" was adopted on the fight against the Russian monarchy. The conference adopted a declaration calling for the establishment of a democratic system in Russia. In April 1905, federalist socialists, the Socialist Union of Belarus, and several groups participating in the Paris Conference (Armenian Revolutionary Federation, Socialist Revolutionaries, Finnish Party of Active Resistance, Latvian Social Democratic Labor Party) gathered in Geneva and formed General Combat Committee for subversive work in Russian territory.
              3. mmaxx 8 October 2019 16: 40 New
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                The only question is that it was the hated Soviet government that did a lot for industry and people to appear in Siberia and the Far East. Although, in fact, more or less, everything there began to develop only strongly after the war. Not before. And before the war, everything was strong in its infancy.
                1. Doliva63 8 October 2019 19: 24 New
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                  Quote: mmaxx
                  The only question is that it was the hated Soviet government that did a lot for industry and people to appear in Siberia and the Far East. Although, in fact, more or less, everything there began to develop only strongly after the war. Not before. And before the war, everything was strong in its infancy.

                  Why is it hated? The opinion of individuals is precisely the opinion of INDIVIDUAL individuals, which has nothing to do with the opinion of the people. They can fart in their corner as much as they want.
                  1. Olgovich 9 October 2019 09: 46 New
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                    Quote: Doliva63
                    The opinion of individuals is precisely the opinion SEPARATE personalities has nothing to do with the opinion of the people. May fart in your corner as much as you want.

                    Right you about himself they said so! good yes (You are also an individual, aren't you?) lol
                2. Olgovich 9 October 2019 09: 43 New
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                  Quote: mmaxx
                  The only question is that it was the hated Soviet government that did a lot for industry and people to appear in Siberia and the Far East

                  Do not carry nonsense: ALL of this went to the thief. And faster: the population of Primorye under Nikolay grew FOUR times!

                  NEVER THERE WAS THIS
                  1. mmaxx 9 October 2019 14: 15 New
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                    If two more people arrive 10 will be already 6 times. Do you understand what I mean? Arithmetic and manipulation. Therefore, there will never be such a thing.
                    1. Olgovich 9 October 2019 15: 06 New
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                      Quote: mmaxx
                      If two more people arrive 10 will be already 6 times. Do you understand what I mean? Arithmetic and manipulation. Therefore, there will never be such a thing.

                      Do not carry nonsense: during the time of Nikolai (22 years) the population of Primorye increased from 130 thousand to 635 thousand, i.e. almost on 400% (1917), over the next 22 years it increased to ....9-6 thousand. (1939) i.e. ... 40%.

                      Those. even in the ABSOLUTE figures, complete collapse.

                      Now tell me that there was no more “no need” and there was nothing to do there .... yes
                    2. mmaxx 10 October 2019 18: 27 New
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                      Here is a confirmation to my comment. The population cannot grow linearly. But in another way: under Nicholas 2 it grew by 500 thousand, and during that time the damned authorities even by 271. The statistics already look a bit wrong. And at 22 years after the king, a non-sour civil war took place.
                      Only damned power came as a result of the reign of the last king and the people who overthrew him. Who overthrew to remind? And what has been going on these six months? And who in civilian traded the country right and left?
                    3. Olgovich 11 October 2019 06: 54 New
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                      Quote: mmaxx
                      But in another way: under Nicholas 2 it grew by 500 thousand, and during that time the damned authorities even by 271. The statistics already look a bit wrong.

                      Namely SO: the complete FAILURE of the next government (see. Russian Cross)
                      Quote: mmaxx
                      And at 22 years after the king, a non-sour civil war took place.

                      Unleashed by the Bolsheviks.
                      Quote: mmaxx
                      Only damned power came as a result of the reign of the last king and the people who overthrew him. Who overthrew to remind?

                      Stalin (with Lenin): about February of the revolution:
                      The revolution was made by the PROLETARIAT. They were led by them on the Bolshevik streets.
                      Quote: mmaxx
                      And who in civilian traded the country right and left?

                      Wild question - Brest betrayal - read, finally!
                    4. mmaxx 11 October 2019 13: 46 New
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                      I will not even deny all these nonsense of the 80-90s.
                    5. Olgovich 11 October 2019 14: 52 New
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                      Quote: mmaxx
                      I will not even deny all these nonsense of the 80-90s.

                      what kind?
  • chenia 8 October 2019 15: 06 New
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    Quote: Olgovich
    1905 and -1939


    That's right.
    1905 - Lapotnaya Russia.
    1939 - powerful industrial USSR.

    Quote: Olgovich
    What, in 1905, Japan, too, basically, fought with the United States (as in 1945)?


    Sound the land battles of the Yankees with the Yap. Guadalcanal not to offer (corps, well, with a stretch of army operation). Japanese ground forces have not fought yet.

    Quote: Olgovich
    Russian developed land: with population, ports, railway, museums and theaters.


    Well!!!
    Well, she did not help the imperial army?
    But the Red Army helped.
    Here. what does it mean- change at the conservatory.
    1. Trapperxnumx 8 October 2019 16: 07 New
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      Quote: chenia
      Well!!!
      Well, she did not help the imperial army?
      But the Red Army helped.
      Here. what does it mean- change at the conservatory.

      Yes, because in the 1905 year it was all just being created! Well, really, such elementary things get so tight!
      1. mmaxx 8 October 2019 16: 44 New
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        In 1905 there was nothing there but the rudimentary industry. All drove from the center. It was still Witte who disposed of a lot of money and turned the railway construction. Whether someone instead of him is still unknown when the piece of iron would have appeared.
        But in terms of construction, nevertheless, tsarist Russia did a lot.
      2. chenia 8 October 2019 17: 29 New
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        Quote: Trapper7
        Well, really, such elementary things get so tight!


        You’re not driving me, but driving Olgovich, and you didn’t catch my sarcasm.
    2. mmaxx 8 October 2019 16: 58 New
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      The United States would have won the Japanese without us. The Yalta agreements had their own conditions. For these conditions, we entered the war with Japan. There were also other political interests. For example, China. Despite everything, the monuments to our soldiers and museums are there, standing and thriving.
      America destroyed the fleet, all industry on the islands, reduced aviation to insignificance. It remained to collect the landing operation and land. Yes, it’s difficult, etc. But there were resources. The Japanese at this time peaked sharpened to defend themselves. There were almost no army on the islands. You can’t transport it from Manchuria - American submarines host the sea like at home.
      So they would have flown all their battleships, aircraft carriers, countless cruisers, made the moon out of the bridgehead and landed. They would fit the whole bunch of transports that they set up. In Korea, landed. In Normandy landed. The Japanese army was disciplined and courageous, but in military matters this is at a level not comparable to the United States. Moreover, the Americans were very angry at the Japanese. And they fought normally.
      The whole problem was that the Japanese killed all of their civilians so that their Americans would not be taken into occupation. I think that the Americans would not bother much with such problems.
      So the whole Kwantung army would remain on the mainland and sit there until it ended. All the same, you won’t kill all the Chinese.
      1. Alf
        Alf 8 October 2019 21: 08 New
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        Quote: mmaxx
        The United States would have won the Japanese without us.

        Nobody argues that they would win. But here's the problem, the General Staff of the United States Army was planning an invasion of Japan itself in 1946. And he planned his own losses in ONE MILLION people.
        1. Alexey RA 9 October 2019 17: 04 New
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          Quote: Alf
          Nobody argues that they would win. But here's the problem, the General Staff of the United States Army was planning an invasion of Japan itself in 1946. And he planned his own losses in ONE MILLION people.

          This is a figure for Washington - the army team waved it. to get a budget blanket over you. They counted up to four million. smile
          In general, as we get closer to Washington, the loss figure has steadily increased. At the same time, the Odimpick-Coronet planners themselves gave out completely different numbers.
          The estimated loss in the land campaign at 766 army men and the operation duration of 700 days ranged from 90 people. (including 149,046 people irrevocable) up to 28,981 people. (including 514,072 irrevocable people). The first figure was calculated on the basis of statistics from the European theater of operations (land battles), the second from the statistics of the Pacific theater of operations (landings and battles on islands). Losses at sea were not included.
          1. Alf
            Alf 9 October 2019 20: 29 New
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            Quote: Alexey RA
            This is a figure for Washington - the army team waved it. to get a budget blanket over you. They counted up to four million.

            Maybe. But no one has denied the date of 1946 or questioned it. And this was only the landing planned in the 46th, and when it would end all is unknown.
      2. Prometey 1 November 2019 11: 17 New
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        Quote: mmaxx
        The Japanese army was disciplined and courageous, but in military matters this is at a level not comparable to the United States. Moreover, the Americans were very angry at the Japanese. And they fought normally.

        In 1945, the morale of the Japanese army was completely broken, and the Yankees broke it. Japan was ready to capitulate before the USSR entered the war. The Americans built a too pessimistic scenario for the war with Japan, everything would actually have gone much faster and more painlessly (for the American army).
        It’s not worth exaggerating the power of the Kwantung Army at all - it was a technically backward group with low combat quality of Japanese soldiers. The Red Army crushed it for two weeks, and the Americans would have walked along it just like a skating rink. The Japanese had no samurai fighting spirit and willingness to stand to death. They began to surrender en masse in tens of thousands after the first blows. The enemy is completely dominant in the sky, massively ironed by artillery and crushed by thousands of tanks - what the hell is self-sacrifice. The same thing would happen on the Japanese islands.
    3. Olgovich 9 October 2019 09: 52 New
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      Quote: chenia

      That's right.
      1905 - Lapotnaya Russia.
      1939 - powerful industrial USSR.

      the "industrial" USSR was never able to build a single battleship (although it tried), nor the Trans-Siberian Railway, nor the Alekseevsky bridge, nor the carrier fleet (only after 50 years)
      Quote: chenia
      Sound the land battles of the Yankees with the Yap. Guadalcanal not to offer (corps, well, with a stretch of army operation). Japanese ground forces have not fought yet.

      Is there an educational program?
      Quote: chenia
      Well!!!
      Well, she did not help the imperial army?

      Help-DV remained for Russia.
      Quote: chenia
      But the Red Army helped.

      Against a broken, in fact, Japan? belay lol
      1. chenia 9 October 2019 10: 07 New
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        Quote: Olgovich
        the "industrial" USSR was never able to build a single battleship


        Well, this is a sober calculation. And RI built only troughs, and the whole filling was from behind a hill. Yes, and for what? To get Tsushima?
        And the USSR began to build an appropriate fleet when it really became relevant.

        Quote: Olgovich
        Help-DV remained for Russia.


        In, in almost Nikolashka played out.

        Quote: Olgovich
        Against a broken, in fact, Japan?


        So the Japanese Red Army sneezed before WWII.
        And I must say, I instructed Yap.
      2. mmaxx 1 November 2019 11: 45 New
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        Yes. Battleships built. But on land she showed impotence. Techniques - 0. Artillery - almost all of other people's samples. It’s better to keep silent about tanks with planes. There was not even a gun. Most importantly, as soon as there was a need for at least something, they immediately turned to the neighbors. Since they didn’t even try to design their own. Look with open eyes.
        1. mmaxx 1 November 2019 11: 46 New
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          We designed 356 mm guns for the same battleships. So Vickers did, and our factories did 0. And so on and so forth.
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk 8 October 2019 10: 31 New
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    In fact, although the defeat of the Kwantung Army was carried out exemplary, it was not he who predetermined the surrender of Japan. You step a little beyond the boundaries of the school history textbook and analyze the situation impartially.
    Then you will see that the Japanese understood very well that they had lost the war before the USSR entered it. But they did not want unconditional surrender and sought a mediator between them and the United States. Japan was ready to give up, but ... Not unconditionally. The Japanese tried everything, but it did not work, and in the end they turned to the USSR, offering all sorts of buns for cooperation up to the transfer of the remnants of the fleet. So the USSR, faithful to allied commitments, instead entered the war. The Japanese literally had a shadow of a chance at the Kwantung army, if it rested, then the USSR might have negotiated (in fact. - no, of course) But the Kwantung army was weakened and could not do anything, and here also the staff of nuclear weapons shied away, giving the Mikado a reason to save face while surrendering.
    In fact, everything was decided not by the defeat of the Kwantung Army and not by a nuclear explosion, but by the USSR’s refusal to mediate in the peace talks between Japan and the United States, after which it became clear to the Japanese that unconditional surrender could not be avoided.
    Japan could not hold out for several years. These figures are from the American General Staff, which poorly understood the plight of the Yap and overestimated their ability to resist.
    1. Alexey RA 8 October 2019 13: 19 New
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      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      Then you will see that the Japanese understood very well that they had lost the war before the USSR entered it. But they did not want unconditional surrender and sought a mediator between them and the United States. Japan was ready to give up, but ... Not unconditionally. The Japanese tried everything, but it did not work, and in the end they turned to the USSR, offering all sorts of buns for cooperation up to the transfer of the remnants of the fleet.

      EMNIP, the first attempts to tie up the USSR as a mediator in the peace talks between Japan and the United States were made by the Japanese back in 1943. They then proposed a "double scheme": the USSR becomes a mediator in Japanese-American negotiations, and Japan becomes an intermediary for Soviet-German negotiations. negotiations. But it was already 1943 in the courtyard, Stalingrad and Kursk were behind - and the USSR was no longer interested in the second part of the proposal even in theory. But the Japanese Foreign Ministry, it seems, believed in its own “Wishlist” - and began to conduct business as if the USSR was ready to agree to mediation, but wanted to get something from Japan for this.
      Then the theater of the absurd began, which continued even after the Soviet Union denounced the Soviet-Japanese neutrality pact:
      ... the general principles of the leadership of the war, adopted on August 19, 1944, during the period when the Koiso cabinet was in power, basically did not differ from those general principles that were adopted by the previous cabinet. The difference consisted only in a certain concretization of events, as well as in the paragraph included at the suggestion of the Minister of Foreign Affairs Shigemitsu and stating that “in the event of the defeat of Germany or the conclusion of a separate peace, it is necessary, without wasting time, to make efforts to change the situation for the better, using for this purpose the Soviet Union. " With this clause, Shigemitsu, in the event of Germany’s defeat, wanted to launch peace-building activities, relying on the Soviet Union.

      ... The Stavka was fully aware of the need to take decisive diplomatic measures to prevent the Soviet Union from entering the war against Japan. The then Deputy Chief of the General Staff, Lieutenant General Kawabe Torajiro, stated the above-mentioned wish to the Togo Foreign Minister on April 22 and added that, as the Deputy Chief of the General Staff, he would give the Minister comprehensive support in carrying out these measures. The next day, the Chief of General Staff, Umezu, informed the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Togo about this request. The fleet command took the same position, as Togo was informed by the deputy chief of the Naval General Staff Kodzawa, who emphasized the desirability of receiving fuel from the Soviet Union.
      In response to these wishes of the Stavka Togo, he said: “If Japan succeeds in winning Okinawa, the Soviet Union will see that Japan still has significant reserves of military power. Therefore, using this situation, it will be possible to build the foundation for the activities of our diplomacy. ”

      ... representatives of the fleet suggested that during negotiations with the Soviet Union the issue of supplies by the Soviet Union of military materials, in particular oil, be discussed. Insisting on this proposal, the fleet command believed that achieving the goal would be difficult. Nevertheless, Togo considered it possible to draw the Soviet Union to the side of Japan, despite the general military situation and the possible strengthening of cooperation between the allies and the Soviet Union as a result of the Yalta Conference.

      © Hattori Takushiro. Japan in the war of 1941-1945
      And it ended only in August 1945. And the completion was a shock for the Japanese - in two years they really believed that the USSR would remain neutral and become a mediator.
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk 8 October 2019 13: 44 New
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        Excellent excursion, you are absolutely right! drinks
      2. Trapperxnumx 8 October 2019 15: 21 New
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        Alexey, great explanation! Thanks!
    2. Trapperxnumx 8 October 2019 15: 19 New
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      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      In fact, although the defeat of the Kwantung Army was carried out exemplary, it was not he who predetermined the surrender of Japan.

      Immensely happy with your appearance in the subject)
      Thanks for the calm and balanced comment.
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk 8 October 2019 17: 06 New
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        And thank you with a kind word! Glad to see you drinks
  • Senior seaman 8 October 2019 11: 53 New
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    Quote: Alexander Suvorov
    And what was that "finished" there?

    I would not say that "everything is ready," but there was still a difference. Circum-Baikal Railway (1905) Amur Railway (1916) Stolypin's resettlement policy. This is what is under the king. Under the USSR, development continued, this cannot be taken away.
    If the USSR had not defeated the Kwantung Army in less than a month, the United States could have fought with Japan for several more years, even despite the nuclear bombing of the Mikado surrendered only after the defeat in Manchuria and Sakhalin

    A common misconception. The reason was not defeat, as such, but the very entry of the USSR into the war. The Japanese, for some reason, thought that Stalin could act as a mediator between them and the United States.
    And the Kwantung Army ... well, how would it get into the mother country under the total dominance of the American fleet and aviation? Despite the fact that the most combat-ready units from the Kwantung Army were withdrawn for a long time and found their end in numerous battles on the islands, and those that remained ... to the Germans by one tooth.
    In general, of course, we paid for Tsushima and Port Arthur. But the fleet was American, the Japanese forces opposing us were not the most combat-ready, and besides, there was an opportunity to transfer our best units from the West, because Germany was defeated and did not pose a threat. But in the 1904 year, everything was a little more complicated.
    So, in a way, colleague Olgovich is right. Situations are not comparable.
  • Trapperxnumx 8 October 2019 15: 40 New
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    Quote: Alexander Suvorov
    Yes?! And what is the difference, do not find it difficult to explain?

    Although not a question for me, but still ...
    In the 1905 year, Russia had just begun the conscious development of the Far East. The railway had not yet been completed completely, there was no normal mathematical and technical base, and there was not enough population. The war was mainly in Chinese territory, where the Chinese themselves did not feel sympathy for the Russian army - in general, an incredible number of problems. If we look at another war of that time - the Anglo-Boer War, which lasted even longer than the Russo-Japanese one, we see that the British were worth incredible efforts and tough measures to achieve victory over an incomparably weaker enemy.
    By 1939, many of the shortcomings were eliminated, factories were built, a large group of troops was available, detailed maps and an action plan were available. And most importantly - there was an experience of war with such an adversary as Japan. And this experience from the distant 1905 year.
    But I want to say that you are right in one thing - in spite of all the above difficulties that the Russian imperial army encountered, we had all the opportunities to win. On land for sure.
  • Serg65 8 October 2019 14: 41 New
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    Quote: Alexander Suvorov
    The reasons for the defeat lie in the mediocrity of Alekseev, Kuropatkin, Stark, Vitgeft, and the Christmas betrayal of Stessel, Fock and Nebogatov

    And what are the reasons for the defeats of the 41st and 42nd? Big losses in the Afghan war to whom to blame?
    You are my friend, in your red light ready to rewrite the whole story!
    1. Alexander Suvorov 8 October 2019 16: 35 New
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      You are my friend, in your red light ready to rewrite the whole story!
      By no means.
      And what are the reasons for the defeats of the 41st and 42nd?

      1. Do not have time to rearm.
      2. Lack of combat experience in most of the command staff.
      3. The lack of initiative in the command staff, partially caused by the purges of the Red Army. Pavlov is a vivid example of this.
      4. We did not have time to deploy to 22.06.41. Most of the troops only advanced to the border.
      5. Low quality intelligence.
      Big losses in the Afghan war to whom to blame?
      What are the big losses? What are you talking about? 15 thousand for 10 years of the war, do you think this is a "big" loss? In addition, the loss ratio of 15 to 75-90 thousand people.
      1. chenia 8 October 2019 19: 41 New
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        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
        1. Do not have time to rearm.
        2. Lack of combat experience in most of the command staff.
        3. The lack of initiative in the command staff, partially caused by the purges of the Red Army. Pavlov is a vivid example of this.
        4. We did not have time to deploy to 22.06.41. Most of the troops only advanced to the border.
        5. Low quality intelligence.

        I agree with you, but still the main lack of BP. It is the absence due to constant reorganization (especially in technically complex military branches).

        40% prisoners for the whole war, and this is for six months. Even in the unsuccessful full of 1942 (already successful since November), the losses of the prisoners are less.
        And the Moscow battle was extended by divisions with at least four months of training.
        And do not be the loss of 1941 so terrible, and 1942 was initially (and not only at the end) victorious).

        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
        15 thousand for 10 years of the war,


        And here you are right.
        And if you take into account not military losses (especially car accidents and careless handling of weapons, as well as suicide. Then military losses are less than 10 thousand) ..
        In general, losses are five times greater than under ordinary conditions (in the internal districts).

        I would see what would be the loss of the United States and its allies in Afghanistan if Russia, Pakistan, China, Iran, the Saudis helped the other side.
        1. Serg65 9 October 2019 07: 59 New
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          Quote: chenia
          still the main lack of power supply

          Intelligence is zero!
          Fear of manifestation of initiative.
          A huge shortage of personnel, especially senior command personnel.
          Quote: Alexander Suvorov
          Pavlov is a vivid example of this.

          I’ll name such Pavlovs and 21 one fingers are not enough to bend!
          The great theory of the pioneers, let them just turn up, chop all of them with checkers!
          Rejection of the alien and their experience of previous military operations.
          Quote: chenia
          And do not be the loss of 1941 so terrible, and 1942 was initially (and not only at the end) victorious).

          I wouldn’t! Even in the 43rd happened that the old-fashioned fought!
          Quote: chenia
          And here you are right.

          The official irreparable loss, published on August 17, 1989 in the most truthful newspaper in the world, the newspaper Pravda.
          1980-1985, 10475 people.
          1986-1989, 3360 people.
          Irrecoverable losses according to a study by officers of the General Staff under the leadership of Runov.
          1980-1985 - 19700 people
          1986-1989 - 6300 people
          From this we see that in the first five years the 40th Army suffered the greatest losses ... why? Can you answer why?
          Quote: chenia
          I would have looked

          "By" is from the realm of fantasy, I am more interested in the lives of Soviet soldiers and officers sacrificed by someone else's interests and commercialism!
          1. Alexey RA 9 October 2019 18: 24 New
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            Quote: Serg65
            Fear of manifestation of initiative.

            Besides the lack of initiative, there was an even worse option: excessive initiative, not backed up by knowledge and experience. For example, an infantry general could stop tanks bypassing the enemy to strike him in the rear, and, despite the situation clarified to him and the existence of an agreed plan of attack and order, order them to attack positions on the forehead - thus disrupting the capture of the village and having deprived the tank battalion of almost zero.
            The level of training of the command staff at all levels was such that the provisions of the Charter had to be hammered into their heads by orders at the level of fronts and directions.
            Quote: Serg65
            The great theory of the pioneers, let them just turn up, chop all of them with checkers!

            These are some wrong first-movers. The canon first-grader was well versed in BTV issues, asking quite reasonable questions at the Meeting in December 1940, such as "and not too narrow a breakthrough strip of the mechanized corps":
            Bearing in mind modern artillery, which also shoots at 20 - 25 km and that, therefore, it will shoot through the echelons of the mechanized corps, it seems to me that a breakthrough should be 30 - 40 km so that the level of development of the breakthrough does not drown: but you have in view of the fact that if you let the echelon of development of the breakthrough go and it drowns in the defense zone itself, it will be difficult to turn it around.

            Or "is there a single command for moving parts introduced into the breakthrough":
            ... let's say a mechanized corps was thrown into a breakthrough, then a corps corps was thrown, and, finally, a motorized infantry corps. Who will unite them? Keep in mind that this is an important issue. If all these three corps will act only on the instructions of the front or the commander of the shock army, this will not work. I know this from experience and can assure you.

            Well, to the theoretical calculations of BTV apologists about the rear support, the first-grader also drove through.
            It is impossible to rely on food only by airplanes. We need to specifically allow now how to do it. I told Comrade Narkom, and he wrote to himself that, unfortunately, the rear issue is very weak in our country. You all know that. Comrade Pavlov correctly proposes that the roads be cleared, because if you let this colossus and clutter up all the troops, they will soon stop and will not move anywhere. This is not to say that some part of the engineering forces must accompany the echelon of breakthrough development, because at the theater that we will break through, not everyone will move as he wants, you need to clear the lane for traffic earlier.
            I had to transport fuel for 5 microns in the air in Belarus (Comrade Kovalev knows). It’s good that there was no one to fight with. On the roads from Novogrudok to Volkovysk, 75 percent of the tanks were due to fuel. The commander said that he can send fuel only on airplanes, and who will organize? The organization of the rear requires knowledgeable people.
            Comrade Pavlov raised the question of the presence of 2 - 3 gas stations in the echelon of success development. In my opinion, they should be brought to 4.
            Two ammunition seems to me not enough. It is necessary to proceed from 3 combat sets.
      2. Serg65 9 October 2019 07: 14 New
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        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
        Did not have time

        laughing My dear friend, you came up with 5 points to justify the Red Army, and only one bloody Nicholas is to blame for the imperial army! And where is the truth?
        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
        What are the big losses? What are you talking about?

        The fact that until the 85th year your 1, 2, 3 and 5 points apply to the SA of the USSR!
  • Alf
    Alf 8 October 2019 21: 03 New
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    Quote: Olgovich
    Russia fought at a distance of a THOUSAND km from the theater of operations to the main Russia and bases,

    And who prevented the Russian Empire from extending a normal piece of iron to the Far East?
  • kiril1246 9 October 2019 00: 47 New
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    Quote: Olgovich
    Russia fought at a distance of several THOUSAND kilometers from the theater of operations to the main Russia and bases, Japan fought at a distance of several hundred kilometers from Japan, i.e., practically at home.

    That's the whole story about the cause of the defeat ....

    But then, didn’t the distance stop winning in 1945 over Japan?
  • Paul Siebert 8 October 2019 07: 54 New
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    The picture "Height 203" looked. In addition to outright lies about the events near Port Arthur, it also has a touching love of some representatives of the Japanese intelligentsia for Russia, as for the country of Tolstoy and Chekhov. There is respect for the great enemy. Propaganda is propaganda, but there are also bright moments!
    1. bober1982 8 October 2019 09: 58 New
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      Quote: Paul Siebert
      there is also a touching love of some representatives of the Japanese intelligentsia for Russia, as for the country of Tolstoy and Chekhov

      All this is good, but there was increased attention (we call it) from the Japanese intelligence to the Russian revolutionary underground, and okay, only attention, but also open contacts with all kinds of socialists, including Plekhanov, Savinkov, and the active supply of money and weapons, the case was put on stream.
      And, as a result, Russia started the war in conditions of internal chaos and disorder.
  • K-50 8 October 2019 07: 57 New
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    The yapps have slid down to some other liar nations! Shame on the Samurai. They cannot win, then it is necessary to pervert the reasons for the attack and dispute the result. Shame !!! negative
    1. Paul Siebert 8 October 2019 10: 36 New
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      The Japanese are historically the best warriors in the Far East. Like the Germans in Western Europe. We Russians won the last war of both. Such winners are not forgiven. These films are just a confirmation of the old truth.
      1. K-50 8 October 2019 11: 01 New
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        Quote: Paul Siebert
        We Russians won the last war of both. Such winners are not forgiven.

        Nevertheless, they have no complaints about pin-dosers, at least they do not voice them very much. Although they tested them and atomic bombs. hi
  • Naz
    Naz 8 October 2019 08: 24 New
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    The war was imperialist, for the division of land. No wonder that many wanted a loss in this war in Russia. Now they don’t talk about it for some reason. Therefore, tsarist Russia lost.
  • BAI
    BAI 8 October 2019 09: 02 New
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    not the Japanese empire, which, without declaring war, attacked the Russian fleet.

    What the Japanese then repeated at Pearl Harbor.
  • Potato 8 October 2019 09: 05 New
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    According to the article, only one thing can be summarized: the Bolsheviks were right!)
  • Rurikovich 8 October 2019 09: 15 New
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    In the period 1898-1903. The West helped the Japanese Empire create a first-class armored fleet, rearm and train the army according to advanced European standards (German school). All this completely eluded the attention of Russian intelligence and diplomacy.

    Here, Mr. Samsonov, I don’t agree with you. The MGSH was aware of the threat posed by the Japanese Navy, he saw the strengthening of Japan, and therefore the Program was adopted for the needs of the Far East. The idea was that by the end of 1905 there would be a fleet in the Far East that could neutralize Japan. And by the way, the battleships of the Borodino type, who died under Tsushima, were supposed to be the backbone of the squadron by the end of 1905. In total, it was planned to have 10 EDBs against 6 Japanese ones. The battleships compensated for the lack of Asama class armored cruisers. so no one missed anything. The Japanese simply did not miss the strengthening of Russia by the end of 1905, and solved the problem by attacking unprepared Russia earlier hi
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk 8 October 2019 10: 34 New
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      I would also add that according to the plans of the Moscow State School for the 1905, the Pacific Fleet was to become the Pacific Fleet
      1. Alexander Suvorov 8 October 2019 13: 05 New
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        I would also add that according to the plans of the Moscow State School for the 1905, the Pacific Fleet was to become the Pacific Fleet
        It’s not enough to have plans, they must also be able to be implemented, and Nikolashka had big problems with this, unfortunately!
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk 8 October 2019 13: 41 New
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          What about studying history? :) If it weren’t for war, in 1905 everything would have been according to plan and the 7 fleet of battleships available at the Pacific Fleet would have increased to a minimum of 12 which made the fleet the strongest
          1. Alexander Suvorov 8 October 2019 13: 50 New
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            What about studying history?
            Fine!
            If not for war, in 1905 everything would have been
            Do not take it for rudeness, BUT if my grandmother would have ... she would be a grandfather ...
            and 7 squadron battleships available at the Pacific Fleet increased to a minimum of 12 which made the fleet the strongest
            Well, yes, and the Japanese, in your opinion, would sit back and watch the strengthening of Russia in the Far East?
            Do you think that something about the "study of history" was told to me? So maybe you yourself will be busy?
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk 8 October 2019 14: 09 New
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              The question is not rudeness, but in the absence of internal logic in your reasoning. The king planned to make the Pacific Fleet the strongest against 1905 and the measures taken by him would make it such.
              And as regards the strengthening of the Japanese, if you did give yourself the trouble to study history, or even this discussion thread, you would know that Witte was to blame for the decision to prepare the fleet specifically for 1905 and not earlier. You can certainly scold Nikolai for allowing himself to hang noodles on his ears, we can say that the decision to prepare the fleet for 1905 was erroneous, but the fact is that when it was adopted, it was strictly executed :) And reproach Nikolai for Inability to implement this plan is impossible.
              And as for me to study history, thanks, amused.
              1. Saxahorse 10 October 2019 00: 36 New
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                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                The king planned to make the Pacific Fleet the strongest by 1905 and the measures taken by him would make it such.

                The fleet is not a goal but a means. The goal is to protect new possessions in the Far East and in China, and to achieve this was possible only ahead of the enemy in readiness for war. This task was completely failed.
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk 10 October 2019 08: 24 New
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                  It was not about goals, but about plans. These are slightly different things, saxors
                  1. Saxahorse 10 October 2019 23: 18 New
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                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    It was not about goals, but about plans. These are slightly different things, saxors

                    Of course different. Plans torn off from a specific goal and became the cause of failure. Who needs a ready-made fleet late for war?

                    "Road spoon for dinner" (c)
                    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk 11 October 2019 06: 27 New
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                      That's right. Just discussed a little different.
                      And so I never Nikolay in the light of state thought and did not record
                      1. Saxahorse 11 October 2019 21: 52 New
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                        If it weren’t for the war, in 1905 everything would have been according to plan and the 7 battalion carriers available at the Pacific Fleet would have increased to a minimum of 12, which made the fleet the strongest

                        As we see, exactly this was discussed :)

                        “if only yes” - Initially relatively sound plans always need to be controlled and corrected as they are implemented. Opportunities for RI to correct plans before the war were the sea.

                        The problem is not only in the near king Tsar Nicholas. The entire imperial bureaucracy is a set of moronic and obsequious officials. Unfortunately for Russia, Richelieu Ali Bismarck was not found near Nikolashka. More and more Rasputin yes Bezobrazov ..
                      2. Trapperxnumx 12 October 2019 00: 26 New
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                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        “if only yes” - Initially relatively sound plans always need to be controlled and corrected as they are implemented. Opportunities for RI to correct plans before the war were the sea.

                        But it’s so possible to approach any war. There is never at 100% readiness for war, at least on the part of the defender. The attacker always chooses the time and place. It is the one who decided to start the war knows exactly when it will begin and makes plans based on this. The opposite side only reacts, hence the delay. Japan began the construction of the fleet and for this attracted the best European shipyards. In response to this, Russia also began to build a powerful ocean fleet - but already late in time and then, we built at home. State policy proceeded from the need to develop its production. And this is the right policy. Another thing is that the British built faster. So it turned out that in the 1902 year the Japanese fleet was already built, and we Borodinians are only launching into the water.
                        In 1941, our army also met a war that was not ready, although they had been preparing for it for about ten years. And still, they could not fully prepare.
                      3. Saxahorse 12 October 2019 19: 32 New
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                        Quote: Trapper7
                        But it’s so possible to approach any war. There is never 100% readiness for war, at least from the side of the defender.

                        In this particular case, everything is completely wrong. The history of the REV is that rare case when Japan’s readiness for war was directly related to Japan’s ability to confront the Russian fleet. Moreover, due to the lack of their own production capabilities, the order of each large ship at foreign shipyards was widely covered in the press. Absolutely precisely, the dates of readiness of each warship of Japan were known.

                        The Russian shipbuilding program for the Far East was launched even earlier than the Japanese one. The fact that several years was stupidly lost on the bureaucracy and the princely whim with the Tsesarevichs does not negate the possibility of the Republic of Ingushetia to affect the timing of the creation of its fleet, both by accelerating its own programs and by making the Japanese more difficult to fulfill their plans.

                        For example, you can recall that Russia financed the construction of the Japanese fleet. Instead of a beggar in China, paying indemnity to Japan. Moreover, Witte, carefully and regularly transferred money to the Japanese fleet, and with a lack of funds, he suspended financing of the Russian fleet. International obligations such as the main thing! Well, Rozhdestvensky’s refusal to buy Nissin and Kasuga is generally frank, terry stupidity!

                        Russia had many opportunities both to accelerate the construction of its fleet and to complicate the construction of the Japanese. All merged, all profiled ..
                      4. Trapperxnumx 14 October 2019 08: 54 New
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                        Moreover, due to the lack of its own production capabilities, the order of each large ship at foreign shipyards was widely covered in the press. Absolutely precisely, the dates of readiness of each warship of Japan were known.

                        Your words sound reasonable.
  • Hantengri 8 October 2019 09: 30 New
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    Petersburg and Russian society were infected with pacifism; they did not believe in the great war since the Hague Conference in the Far East, they did not seriously think. The War Ministry, headed by Kuropatkin, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Finance, that there will be no war with Japan, so there is no need to allocate additional forces and resources to strengthen the defense capability of the Far Eastern borders


    Maybe it’s enough to portray Russia as a naive schoolgirl, whom bad uncles tricked into a sauna ?.

    Immediately after the Sino-Japanese war, a number of military meetings were held where the following decision was made:
    “The main forces should be located at the main theater, which the Far East should be recognized at present, the strength of the circumstances in the Baltic Sea in our future shipbuilding activities should be limited to the construction of coastal defense ships. All other efforts should be directed to replenish our needs for Far East. "
    This is December 12, 1897, that is, before the Russo-Japanese War, we have 7 more years left.

    It was decided to increase the composition of the fleet in the Far East to 10 armadillos, overtake all armored cruisers there, make there 10 cruisers of the 2nd class and the same 3rd class, 36 fighters and 11 destroyers.
    On December 27, 1897 a new meeting was held, which outlined an additional shipbuilding program (that is, it somewhat expanded the previous one), it was called the "Program of 1898." This program demanded about two hundred million rubles in addition to what was allocated earlier.

    What S.Yu. rested on Witte, for he believed that Japan was unable to complete its program before 1905, and tried to increase the program in time and reduce it by 50 million rubles.

    As a result, it was decided to allocate all 200 million on which they were supposed to build: 10 squadron battleships, 5 armored cruisers, 7 cruisers of the 1st rank, 5 cruisers of the 2nd rank, 7 gunboats, 2 mine cruisers, 20 destroyers and 24 destroyer, but the completion of this program is scheduled for 1905.

    Further: On the Surprise and Treachery of the Cunning Japanese.

    1998 From a note by A. Bezobrazov:
    "The East Asian company is not created to enrich individuals, but to instill Russian ideas. The influence of the company on the general course of business in Korea should be concentrated in the hands of the company."

    Under the guise of company employees, it was supposed to introduce 20 thousand military men into concession places. And, accordingly, allocate significant state funding for everything. The company, in addition to logging, had to deal with topography, strategic roads, and warehouses. Thus, the Russian government received double benefits: from the exploitation of forests on the border between Korea and Manchuria - on the one hand, and on the other, from the possibility of military-political strengthening in the region and thereby restraining the possible advancement of Japan on the continent.
    This, if anything, is called: to create an excuse for war from scratch.
    Nikolay2 liked the idea. And away we go ...

    In 1901, the Russian Forestry Partnership was created on the Yalu River.

    In 1903, in the places of deforestation, the Russian military secretly began to settle. At the same time, the Chinese knew about it, the Koreans knew about it, the Russians knew about it, the Japanese knew about it. But they secretly settled, under the guise of simple loggers.

    Nikolai2 demanded that the Russian authorities, headed by the governor E.I., also provide support here. Alekseev in Manchuria. Since the governor obeyed the tsar, in fact, everything turned out very conveniently. And Alekseev, at the request of essentially Bezobrazov (and formally - at the request of the tsar), began to send Russian troops to Korea. And from Port Arthur to Chemulpo arrived Russian ships, which began to be present there essentially constantly.

    Naturally, England and Japan took this as a very concrete attempt by the Republic of Ingushetia to fully consolidate its presence in the north of Korea and in general throughout Korea.

    end of December 1903 The latest Japanese proposals on the Korean issue, negotiations on which have been going on for more than six months (the Japanese send protests, try to figure it out, divide the spheres of influence, and they are systematically sent to the garden, were informed the Russian envoy in Tokyo Rosen). Japanese Foreign Minister Baron Komura, in words, added that "further delay will be extremely unfavorable for both sides."

    January 22, 1904 Japanese proposals are finally considered. Those. "last Japanese warning" put under the cloth for almost a month (!!!).

    On January 25, 1904, a telegram was received in Tokyo stating that RI accepted all Japanese proposals. But...


    January 23, Japan break off diplomatic relations with RI

    January 24 "Treacherous" start of hostilities
    1. Alexey RA 8 October 2019 14: 38 New
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      Quote: HanTengri
      Maybe it’s enough to portray Russia as a naive schoolgirl, whom bad uncles tricked into a sauna?

      Pffff ... You still remember how it all began - how the Great Powers first forced Japan to give back to China the lands that Japan received after the war, and then Russia took these same lands.
      If you translate this into Russian realities, it is as if a year after the Berlin Congress, Great Britain would still overcome the Straits and establish a military base there.
      And why was Japan offended by Russia? wink
      1. Hantengri 8 October 2019 21: 10 New
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        Quote: Alexey RA
        Pffff ... You still remember how it all began - how the Great Powers first forced Japan to give back to China the lands that Japan received after the war, and then Russia took these same lands.

        What for? If, to my deep surprise, the Samson cooperative, while cooking up this, its next, craft, for some inexplicable reason (can anyone bite it?), This fact, nevertheless, did not bypass attention.
  • Avior 8 October 2019 11: 03 New
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    The difference in attitude to the war manifested itself in the propaganda of the parties during the war.
    Russian propaganda

    And japanese
  • gabonskijfront 8 October 2019 11: 14 New
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    Our story
  • andrew42 8 October 2019 11: 21 New
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    Well, let the "serpent dites" revel in their epic virtues, inflated to incredible sizes. What do we care? To appreciate the culture of Zen Buddhism, to respect the Japanese for their ability to appreciate the flowering of sakura and kiku, a drop of rain and a rock garden, is one thing. The Japanese military is the exact opposite of the first, disgustingly black against white. This is not about samurai traditions - these are the internal traditions of the legendary Japanese feudalism, and the earlier one, akin to the Song of the Nibelungs, is about cannibalistic wars of the Japanese military. They easily got off after WWII. In the "era of the sword" such nations, distinguished by pathological atrocities, exterminated to the last knee, like the Juan Juan in Northern China, or like ours, "the decease of Aki Obra." Less samurai should be chanted, it has become akin to the “cowboy romance” about polished heroes instead of shepherds really smelling of dung. Still need to deal with the roots of the samurai tradition, it is believed that it originated from the Ainu leaders with their small squads, which the victorious Japanese feudal lords incorporated into their structures. if you look at the military spirit, so in Russia, 7 out of 10 peasants are natural samurai, from urban militias of the 10th century to recruits from the time of Catherine. And the reasons for the defeat of the Republic of Ingushetia in 1904-1905. simple as a “rush of twenty": 1) the mediocrity of elite careerists, 2) the unexpectedly powerful support of the banking houses of Britain and the United States 3) underestimation of the enemy’s abilities both in mastering technology and in fighting spirit, or neglect Japanese culture. In the latter part, a figurative expression about Tsushima firmly cut into my memory: "The Christian egregor of tsarist Russia turned out to be powerless before the demon of Japanese statehood."
  • The comment was deleted.
  • yehat 8 October 2019 15: 51 New
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    The strength of Japan was seriously underestimated. The past qualitative changes in the Japanese armed forces failed. At first they even thought that only the troops of the Amur District would cope with the Japanese. Then, in case of war, they decided to strengthen them with reserve corps from the Siberian and Kazan districts, and, finally, with better corps from the Kiev and Moscow districts. Port Arthur did not prepare for a long defense, did not create a powerful fortified area in the narrowest spot of the Liaodong Peninsula.

    author, sit down two

    the problem was not underestimation, but the geopolitical position and ignoring Japan in general
    firstly, only a few people throughout the empire spoke japanese
    secondly, intelligence and trade were not well established, why didn’t they see the real state of Japan
    thirdly, completely ignored Japan as a player
    finally, in the fourth, when Japan was forced to leave Port Arthur with the ultimatum of European countries, and then it was occupied by themselves, it was like a spit in the face and no one even understood what it would mean.
    Finally, about the ground forces. There was no difference whether reinforcements arrived or not, the supply of the army was very limited, which is why the Japanese army with guaranteed equipment was guaranteed to win. The degradation of the generals and commanders in general is greatly exaggerated and even perverted.
    The war was decided at sea, because decided the beginning of the war of communication.

    The position of the fleet as a whole is described correctly, but the main thing is not said - the combined Asian fleet of the Republic of Ingushetia guaranteed to beat Japan at the level of command shown in the conflict, even without reinforcements by the squadron of Rozhdestvensky (or Rozsvensky?) From the empire, but kept divided at the most vulnerable moment when it was weakened and destroyed in parts.

    This suggests that they did not seriously prepare for a conflict with Japan even at the level of prevention.

    Well and the last - the conclusion of the world. Japan was secretly prepared for the status quo, but the Russian delegation signed a humiliating peace. What is the result?

    RI could win the conflict in 4 ways
    1. unite the fleet during the modernization of the departed battleships and the strengthening of Port Arthur
    2. Do not agree to peace and continue for at least another half year
    3. Win Tsushima (as they analyze, the defeat in Tsushima was the poor manufacture of Tsesarevich, whose armor simply fell off and drowned in an hour of battle, at the same time, at the beginning of the battle, a fatal hit in the Japanese battleship Fuji did not lead to his withdrawal from battle for a combination of circumstances)
    4. At the diplomatic level
    In addition, there were many ways to prevent a war at all or to prepare for it much better.

    But RI everywhere failed, so the Russo-Japanese War was not lost by the generals, but socially, at the level of state structure.
    1. Trapperxnumx 8 October 2019 16: 23 New
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      Quote: yehat
      the united Asian fleet of the Republic of Ingushetia guaranteed to beat Japan at the level of command shown in the conflict,

      Let me disagree with you. Firstly, the 1TOE included 7 armadillos, including 3 obsolete, 2 armadillo cruisers with weakened armor and weapons, and only 2 armadillos could fight the Japanese on equal terms. At the same time, we had 4 armored cruisers against 8, and all the battalion cruisers had superior armor and weapons. Our fleet could effectively resist and acting from Port Arthur to interfere with the transport of troops, but he could not defeat the Mikado fleet, the forces were not equal.
      Regarding the division of the fleet - my personal opinion, it was a competent decision. In a squadron battle they were no use, but from Vladik they
      a) significantly complicated the transportation of troops through Yap.more
      b) diverted significant forces of Mikado (the battle in the Yellow Sea is a confirmation of this)
      c) until they slipped into the Channel Strait were almost elusive for Kamimura.
      Well it is, offhand.
      1. yehat 8 October 2019 16: 56 New
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        from Vladivostok it was impossible to prevent either the landing, or its supply.
        There you could only remain elusive, like the elusive Joe, which no one needs.
        1. Trapperxnumx 8 October 2019 19: 41 New
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          Quote: yehat
          the elusive Joe that no one needs.

          When I wrote, I also thought about him)
        2. Alexey RA 9 October 2019 12: 16 New
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          Quote: yehat
          from Vladivostok it was impossible to prevent either the landing, or its supply.

          Yes, I could not prevent the landing. But to interfere with the supply - completely. Because it’s more convenient to work from Vladivostok on communications between Korea and Japan than from Port Arthur. As well as it is more convenient to work on importing Japan proper - east of the islands.
          By the way, I recommend that you ask what and where the Stormbreaker drowned on June 02, 1904. wink

          And the Trinity BPCR VOK squadron is not needed at all - these are raiders, not squadrons of the Kyrgyz Republic. In addition, the cruiser Kamimura will come along with them to the theater.
          1. Saxahorse 10 October 2019 00: 40 New
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            Quote: Alexey RA
            And the Trinity BPCR VOK squadron is not needed at all - these are raiders, not squadrons of the Kyrgyz Republic. In addition, the cruiser Kamimura will come along with them to the theater.

            Normal, thick armored cruisers. They could significantly strengthen the linear forces. And in Vladik it was worth putting horses - Askold, Varyag, Bogatyr, Novik. So much for the “elusive avengers” :) Moreover, the dogs will not stop them, all the same, they would have to be strengthened by Asams.
            1. Alf
              Alf 10 October 2019 20: 11 New
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              Quote: Saxahorse
              I would have to strengthen them with the Asams.

              Which are unlikely to be able to catch up with the six thousandths.
              1. Saxahorse 10 October 2019 23: 26 New
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                Quote: Alf
                Which are unlikely to be able to catch up with the six thousandths.

                Of course they won’t catch up, but at least they won’t let them beat the “dogs”. And then some kind of Chioda against Askold or God forbid the Hero looks very pale. But someone needs to protect military transports. Such a situation would greatly add to the headache of the Japanese.
            2. Trapperxnumx 14 October 2019 09: 01 New
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              Quote: Saxahorse
              Normal, thick armored cruisers. They could significantly strengthen the linear forces.

              They would not strengthen anyone. Remember the battle of Ulsan and what our cruisers turned into after it. Yes, they returned to the base, but the belt turned out to be strong. But given the high explosiveness of the Japanese, all unarmored parts of our ships simply turned into rubbish and the ships completely lost their combat effectiveness until next year.
              1. Saxahorse 14 October 2019 22: 02 New
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                Quote: Trapper7
                But given the high explosiveness of the Japanese, all unarmored parts of our ships simply turned into rubbish and the ships completely lost their combat effectiveness until next year.

                On the contrary, it was possible to read the comments of contemporary officers surprised by the insufficient severity of the damage to terrible-looking ships.

                If Russian shells scolded for fuses that are too tight, then Japanese shells justifiably scolded for overly delicate fuses that even fenced the guard rails. As a result, extensive burnt holes, but not a single penetration of the armor, no serious damage inside the ship. Unlike the 2nd TOE, the ships were not overloaded and the holes above the armored belt did not pose a serious threat to stability. The same Rurik was eventually flooded by themselves, opening the kingstones. Damage to combat effectiveness was more likely associated with jamming of the guns with fragments and breakdowns. The guns in Vladivostok were not even changed, cleaned and repaired in a couple of days.

                Large armored cruisers confirmed high survivability at least against ships of their own class armed with guns of no more than 8 "caliber. By the way, the average Japanese casualties in people from one projectile hit were one and a half times higher. Only now they were very rare, the accuracy of the Japanese was overwhelming advantage. :(
          2. Trapperxnumx 14 October 2019 08: 57 New
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            Quote: Alexey RA
            And the Trinity BPCR VOK squadron is not needed at all - these are raiders, not squadrons of the Kyrgyz Republic. In addition, the cruiser Kamimura will come along with them to the theater.

            I absolutely agree.
    2. Alexey RA 8 October 2019 16: 38 New
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      Quote: yehat
      The war was decided at sea, because decided the beginning of the war of communication.

      In fact, the war could have been resolved on land - if not for the notorious economy. The fall of Port Arthur was predetermined even before the war - when the number of its garrison was limited and when the land defense of the main base of the Pacific Fleet was ruthlessly cut. The plans for the long-term defense of all Liaodong on the isthmuses, plans for the large ring and the middle ring of fortifications around Port Arthur itself were consistently rejected.
      As a result, the army received what could not be called sabotage: a line of fortifications that required money and resources for its construction, but at the same time did not protect it from anything. Removing the main line of defense from the protected city was less than the flight range of the rifle bullet. The thickness of the concrete was cut twice - as a result of the shelter they protected a maximum of 6 "shells. And this is in the presence of the Japanese coastal defense with a minimum of 11" guns.
      If Velichko had been given at least a middle contour to be built - Legs would have trodden around the fortress, 2 and 3 TOEs would be where to go, and 1 TOE would not be sunk directly in the harbor.
    3. Senior seaman 8 October 2019 21: 47 New
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      Quote: yehat
      Win Tsushima (as they analyze, the defeat in Tsushima was the low-quality manufacture of Tsesarevich, whose armor simply fell off and he drowned in an hour of battle

      What did the Tsesarevich do in Tsushima? stop
      1. Alexey RA 9 October 2019 18: 26 New
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        Quote: Senior Sailor
        What did the Tsesarevich do in Tsushima?

        This is how popadanites from alternative realities scorch - on trifles. laughing
  • sibiryouk 8 October 2019 16: 40 New
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    Still, Samsonov has many historical inaccuracies, for example, in Port Arthur there were also cruisers brkr BAYAN, brpal DIANA, PALLADA, kr2ranga NOVIK and BOYARIN. Revolutionary demonstrations in Russia intensified as early as 1901-02, 3 years before the Russo-Japanese War and the reasons for the growth of the revolt movement were not Japanese money, but the internal situation in the country. Hopeless life pushed to rebellion!
  • rumpeljschtizhen 8 October 2019 18: 08 New
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    [media = https: //vk.com/video-122689355_456239855] I liked some points
  • Comrade 9 October 2019 03: 48 New
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    In modern Russia created myth that the main reasons for the defeat are external forces (England and the USA), the Russian liberal community, dissatisfied with the war, and revolutionaries who plunged the empire into turmoil and prevented the country from winning.

    Why "myth"?
    It is true, and there is enough factual material on this multifaceted topic.
    A few words about the financial side of things. Japan started the war when the share of foreign loans in its defense spending did not exceed a third. However, the Japanese quickly ran out of steam, and very quickly the country fought mainly with foreign money.
    Interestingly, the interest rate fluctuated depending on the military successes of the Japanese. With the outbreak of war, the rate steadily increased, reaching 6,55% by the time of the death of Petropavlovsk and Admiral Makarov, after which it gradually began to slide down, reaching 5,525% after reporting that the cruiser Rurik was sunk and the Vladivostok detachment of cruisers was paralyzed.
    Based on the financial statistics of that time, it can be stated that, if the international bankers of Japan did not give money, there would simply be nothing to fight for the latter.
    The lending of money to the Japanese by the British and Americans was often a politically motivated act (we can observe a similar practice today, and there is no need to go far for examples).
    The topic of strikes at our defense enterprises in the midst of the Russo-Japanese War, organized by professional "revolutionaries" paid up, can also be raised.
    One cannot ignore the massive illegal delivery of small arms and ammunition to Russia by sea for the "conscious proletariat", but someone generously paid for it and organized quite well.
    Well and further on points.
    In 1969, the film "Battle in the Sea of ​​Japan" was released. Russian soldiers here walk in the same Japanese uniform as everyone else.

    It is not.
    The director of the film, Seiji Maruyama, nevertheless worried that the audience would not confuse Japanese and Russian soldiers in battle scenes. Without going into details and disregarding the historical authenticity of the Russian military uniform, let us consider a few striking differences.
    Firstly, it is the color of the uniforms. On the attached screenshot, the Japanese infantryman is in black on the left, the Russian machine gunner is on the right, firing at the advancing enemy. The difference in color is evident.

    Secondly, the Russian soldiers in this film are shod in black bootsand the Japanese have closed legs above the knees on top of their legs white leggings.
    Thirdly, the bands of Japanese caps are yellow, and the Russians are red.
    1. 27091965 9 October 2019 11: 37 New
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      Quote: Comrade
      Japan started the war when the share of foreign loans in its defense spending did not exceed a third. However, the Japanese quickly ran out of steam, and very quickly the country fought mainly with foreign money.
      Interestingly, the interest rate fluctuated depending on the military successes of the Japanese. With the outbreak of war, the rate steadily increased, reaching 6,55% by the time of the death of Petropavlovsk and Admiral Makarov, after which it gradually began to slide down, reaching 5,525% after reporting that the cruiser Rurik was sunk and the Vladivostok detachment of cruisers was paralyzed.


      During the war, Japan took 2 types of loans, short-term at 6% and long-term at 4-4,5%. The first loan was short-term, it was taken in May 1904 and I do not think that the interest rate should be linked directly to the death of the battleship Petropavlovsk .
      The loans themselves were divided into several parts. The first went directly to the war, the second to pay interest on loans, and the third, the most interesting, to purchase gold and silver. Part of the money was accumulated in banks in Japan. In terms of modern terminology, gold-currency reserves were created and this happened during the war.
      1. Comrade 9 October 2019 12: 03 New
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        In 2000, two corrosive and scrupulous English-speaking researchers published a work devoted to the financial aspect of the Russo-Japanese war, as well as the previous and subsequent periods.
        Among other interesting facts and figures in the text is a graph in which the curve illustrates the movement in the interest rate at which Japan took government loans from foreign banks.
        Near the points, when the curve rushed up or down, certain events were printed on the land or sea theater (the death of the battleship "Petropavlovsk" - among them). The graph shows that when the Japanese were doing well, the interest rate for them fell, and vice versa.
        The maximum and minimum values ​​given by you that characterize the size of interest rates do not correspond to what these researchers indicated.
        So, after the battle of Tsushima, the interest rate fell sharply.
        I’m writing from work, from an iPhone, so I can’t indicate the exact number. However, it was below three percent per annum. And as we remember, after the battle of Tsushima the troops continued, therefore, we can conclude that during the war there was a period when the Japanese were loaned at a rate of less than four percent.
        1. 27091965 9 October 2019 19: 36 New
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          Quote: Comrade
          Among other interesting facts and figures in the text is a graph in which the curve illustrates the movement in the interest rate at which Japan took government loans from foreign banks.


          Could you show this chart, perhaps it relates to other types of war loan bonds that were in use in Japan, the interest rate in these loans, depending on the series of issue, was from 2 to 6 percent.
  • Molot1979 9 October 2019 09: 29 New
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    "There are many corpses - there is not enough truth." But with respect to corpses - the full truth. The total losses of Japan turned out to be significantly more than the Russians. The siege of Port Arthur cost more than 100 thousand dead, wounded and sick. If the policy of St. Petersburg is called mediocre, then what are the claims to the causes of defeat set forth in Soviet textbooks?
    The role of England and the United States in the outcome of the war should not be exaggerated. Yes, the Japanese rebuilt and equipped a first-class fleet with their loans. But the stupid politician Mykolki provoked the war, whom, by absurd chance, was called the Saints, although the rattle Bloody suits him much more. It is clear that the Japanese in their films will not show how and under what circumstances they themselves ended up in Korea and Manchuria. They had a "creative intelligentsia, its e conscience of the nation and the salt of the earth" and did not. And how they raped and then slaughtered the Korean queen alive, they won’t shoot. However, there is a reason for their argument. Personally, I don’t like japas and in 1945 I consider it a worthy retribution for 1905. But the truth should be, whatever it may be. And the truth is that the royal party in alliance with the tsar’s relatives climbed with might and main into Japan already in Korea, painfully stepping on samurai’s boots. Maybe someone else remembers what the "Bezobrazov clique" is? This general, who did not distinguish himself in any war, but who knew how to famously cut down the loot, where necessary, organized the so-called "concession for the extraction of forest on the river Yalu." That is, climbed onto a Japanese plot and began to cut coupons. Moreover, he achieved the introduction of several thousand Cossacks called "guard" into Japanese territory. You can see this moment and beat the japas, talking about the "invasion". Although Mykolu was warned that things could end badly, our honorable saint called the Japanese yellow-eyed, cross-eyed macaques and allowed the events to take their course, and their beloved relatives to make profit, as if they lacked royal salaries. And here is the revolution. And in this regard, the Minister of the Interior spoke sacramental, which became a meme: "We need a small victorious war." Think about it: the Japanese have just created a fucking fleet and a powerful army, and in St. Petersburg they are still considered yellow monkeys, whom our miraculous heroes will beat thousands alone, and twice as many on Sundays. That is, foreign intelligence patted ears, and what was managed to get it went to the back of the royal ass and was not even read. Question: What relation do England and the USA have to this stupidity and blindness? Nothing. They set a trap for themselves and themselves fell into it. The war came out not small and not victorious. It was the complete insanity of the Petersburg top that became the trigger of defeat. Even the sensible general could not be found. Fortifications of Port Arthur are not completed. The Pacific Fleet is clearly inferior to the Japanese, the army in the Far East is weak, but Peter in every way provokes Tokyo into conflict. Is this what they arranged with London and Washington? There, of course, our ill-wishers always sat there, but one must know the measure and not hang even the enemies of unnecessary sins - they will have enough of their own.
    1. Trapperxnumx 9 October 2019 10: 15 New
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      Russia needed an ice-free port in the Far East. Russia needed a railway to develop the Far East. For some reason, Stalin also left Port Arthur in the 1945 year. Apparently he also understood the need for an ice-free port for his fleet. The problem is that in solving our task of ensuring our interests, we willy-nilly encountered the interests of other countries, in particular Japan. The war was inevitable, they were preparing for it in accordance with the adopted plan - for the 1905 year. If the war started a year later, Japan would no longer have a chance to win.
      1. Karabut 9 October 2019 20: 32 New
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        - Russia needed an ice-free port in the Far East - in general, that is, on Russian territory, they might have asked. So your pathos is not the topic.
      2. Alf
        Alf 9 October 2019 20: 40 New
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        Quote: Trapper7
        If the war started a year later, Japan would no longer have a chance to win.

        Why do you think so ? What would change in one year?
        1. Alexey RA 10 October 2019 15: 28 New
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          Quote: Alf
          Why do you think so ? What would change in one year?

          On land - Circum-Baikal railway. At sea - "Borodino".
          1. Alf
            Alf 10 October 2019 20: 05 New
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            Quote: Alexey RA
            At sea - "Borodino".

            And where would they come from? Would you build in one year? Would you come from the Baltic? So the Baltic squadron set off only after the outbreak of war.
            1. Senior seaman 11 October 2019 09: 01 New
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              Quote: Alf
              Would you build in one year?

              What's the problem?
              "Alexander" was already ready, "Oslyabya" in general in the Red Sea.
              1. Alf
                Alf 11 October 2019 17: 13 New
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                Quote: Senior Sailor
                "Oslyabya" in general in the Red Sea.

                Well, if Oslyabyu is called an armadillo .. Something is incomprehensible, a slow-moving cross-country cruiser or an un-armored carrier .. It’s scary-armored to put it in line not so hot as a slow-moving cruiser.
                And where was Alexander?
                1. Senior seaman 11 October 2019 17: 25 New
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                  Quote: Alf
                  And where was Alexander?

                  In the Baltic. Equipped in early August, 1903, and immediately began testing. If desired, he could well join the squad of Virennius, and only a year later ...
                  Quote: Alf
                  Well, if Oslyabyu is called an armadillo ..

                  What bothers you? The Japanese put the Asamoids in line and nothing.
                  In addition, not the most successful battleship in Arthur or Vladik at the beginning of the war, is better than the super-duper in Kronstadt.
                  1. Alf
                    Alf 11 October 2019 17: 35 New
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                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    If desired, he could well join the squad of Virennius, and only a year later ...

                    Yes, if desired. The question is, if the REV began on January 27, 1904, and the Second Squadron left only on October 2, 1904, that is, SIX months after the start of the war, then when would it leave in peacetime, in the event of a delayed attack by Japan? Given the “speed” of the decision to send, the same would have happened.
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    The Japanese put the Asamoids in line and nothing.

                    With the right of independent maneuvering, Oslyabyu was tied to the battleships with a logical ending.
                    1. Senior seaman 11 October 2019 17: 52 New
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                      Quote: Alf
                      The question is, if the REV began on January 27 of the 1904 year, and the Second Squadron left only on October 2 of the 1904 year,

                      That is, if the war begins a year later, Borodin will already be part of Arthur, the rest are ready to leave immediately. Not a bad deal, don't you find?
                      Quote: Alf
                      With the right of independent maneuvering,

                      So tell me, what kind of "free maneuvering" did the Garibaldians have?
                      Quote: Alf
                      Oslyabyu tied to the battleships with a logical ending.

                      "Relight", "Victory" in the Yellow Sea .... no, I have not heard!
                      1. Alf
                        Alf 11 October 2019 18: 05 New
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                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Not a bad deal, don't you find?

                        The layout is wonderful, but the question is, would they be there by this time, taking into account the "leisurelyness" of the highest military leadership of the Empire? If AFTER the start of the war, in the conditions of the urgent arrival of 2 squadrons, the Second was going to HALF. And if Japan hadn’t attacked? Then what?
                        Despite the obvious weakness of the Russian forces in the Far East and the unsuccessful start of the war, the completion of new and repair of old ships, which were supposed to enter the Second Pacific Squadron, were carried out very slowly. So, the request submitted at the end of March to allow overtime work to expedite the completion of the battleship “Orel” from the Main Directorate of Shipbuilding and Supplies (GUKiS) came with an explanation that over the absence of a special loan, overtime work could not be allowed. Only after the death of March 31 near Port Arthur in the Japanese mine of the battleship "Petropavlovsk", and with it the squadron commander, Vice Admiral S. O. Makarov, work on the building ships began to accelerate, but still remained not fast enough. Because of this, it was necessary, in particular, to abandon plans to include the battleship “Glory” in the squadron, which was in the least degree of readiness, although with proper funding and organization of work, there was every chance of putting it into operation in the fall of 1904.

                        "Why hurry, the Japanese won’t attack, we’ll have time" ...
                      2. Senior seaman 11 October 2019 20: 19 New
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                        Quote: Alf
                        And if Japan hadn’t attacked?

                        there would be no war.
                        then what

                        even taking into account the incredible gouging, the second squadron would have appeared on the theater six months earlier.
                        checkmate
                      3. Saxahorse 11 October 2019 22: 33 New
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                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        there would be no war.

                        A rhetorical answer to a bunch of rhetorical questions :)

                        Of course I agree with you. RI fulfill your own plans at least partially, but on time! Focus on time superior naval forces in the Far East and the war really, of course, would not be used !!! The Japanese, gritting their teeth, would swallow an insult with pulling Liaodong straight from the mouth. And they would try to share the influence farther south, in China.

                        Unfortunately, the Russian empire merged everything possible. Although the chances of winning were very great!
        2. Trapperxnumx 11 October 2019 16: 01 New
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          Quote: Alf
          Quote: Trapper7
          If the war started a year later, Japan would no longer have a chance to win.

          Why do you think so ? What would change in one year?

          Quote: Alf
          And where would they come from? Would you build in one year? Would you come from the Baltic? So the Baltic squadron set off only after the outbreak of war.

          In principle, you have already been answered. But yes. Oslyabya, Aurora, and, if I am not mistaken, Svetlana was already in the Red Sea. Alexander 3 was ready, Prince Suvorov and Borodino - almost ready. At a minimum, they could have + 3 battleship in the fleet and several cruisers. Already this would negate the entire advantage of the Mikado fleet, and without it it is impossible to transfer troops to China and Korea. Well, the defense of Port Arthur would be better prepared.
          1. Senior seaman 11 October 2019 17: 28 New
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            Quote: Trapper7
            Oslyabya, Aurora, and, if I am not mistaken, Svetlana was already in the Red Sea.

            There was no “Svetlana,” there was a “Diamond” and a “Don”, but, in principle, it was possible for the “Sveta,” some kind of cruiser.
            1. Trapperxnumx 11 October 2019 17: 33 New
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              Thank you for correcting. I have so far been little interested in this transition.
              Donskoy seems to be quite ancient ... Why would he go there?
              1. Senior seaman 11 October 2019 17: 56 New
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                In general, as a training artillery ship. But the cruiser, although ancient, nevertheless, is quite combat. The Japa “Takachiho” and “Naniva” used only to go, and they are almost the same age, but ours is also with a belt.
  • pmkemcity 9 October 2019 18: 37 New
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    ... Petersburg top ... as modern!
  • cat Rusich 10 October 2019 02: 40 New
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    We (Russia) need to make our own epic films (or just films) about how the Red Army beat samurai (Japanese) near Lake. Hassan (1938) and on the river. Khalkhin-Gol (1939). As in 1945 they freed Fr. Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands.
    1. Alf
      Alf 10 October 2019 20: 07 New
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      Quote: cat Rusich
      We (Russia) need to make our own epic films (or just films) about how the Red Army beat samurai (Japanese) near Lake. Hassan (1938) and on the river. Khalkhin-Gol (1939). As in 1945 they freed Fr. Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands.

      Yeah, try it. In these films one would have to show under whose guidance and command it would be. And for our ilita, the name of the temporary detention facility and the concept of the USSR as a sickle by pager. And in the tales of bloodthirsty commissars and stupid generals, our people begin to stop believing.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • ABM
    ABM 11 November 2019 19: 50 New
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    Quote: Rurikovich
    In the period 1898-1903. The West helped the Japanese Empire create a first-class armored fleet, rearm and train the army according to advanced European standards (German school). All this completely eluded the attention of Russian intelligence and diplomacy.

    Here, Mr. Samsonov, I don’t agree with you. The MGSH was aware of the threat posed by the Japanese Navy, he saw the strengthening of Japan, and therefore the Program was adopted for the needs of the Far East. The idea was that by the end of 1905 there would be a fleet in the Far East that could neutralize Japan. And by the way, the battleships of the Borodino type, who died under Tsushima, were supposed to be the backbone of the squadron by the end of 1905. In total, it was planned to have 10 EDBs against 6 Japanese ones. The battleships compensated for the lack of Asama class armored cruisers. so no one missed anything. The Japanese simply did not miss the strengthening of Russia by the end of 1905, and solved the problem by attacking unprepared Russia earlier hi


    of 4 EDBs, only 2 were built for Pacific Fleet and 2 for BF
  • ABM
    ABM 11 November 2019 20: 00 New
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    Quote: yehat
    Christmas (or Christmas?)


    Rozhdestvensky - the third option
  • ABM
    ABM 11 November 2019 20: 12 New
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    [quote = Chief Sailor] [quote = Alf] And if Japan had not attacked? [/ quote]
    there would be no war.
    [quote] then that [/ quote]

    I would have to constantly keep on the Far East fleet superior to the Japanese. In fact, the entire BF must be sent there - a couple of “Andrew the First-Called” + “Rurik” (II) + 4 Sevastopol + 4 Ishmael (also need to be completed in time) - and still they didn’t reach the level of the Japanese fleet
  • Tarasios 2 January 2020 06: 25 New
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    Well, Duc, by this logic, and the Americans, at one time, solely for reasons of "protection", felled two atomic bombs.
    PySy: I read the book "Tsushima". Very heavy impression. Mediocre leadership, window dressing, shells that stupidly did not want to explode ...