Military Review

Combat aircraft. Pe-8, not becoming a "flying fortress"

128
Indeed, ANT-42, aka TB-7, aka Pe-8, the most powerful Red Army air force bomber, how was it in terms of comparison with its counterparts? And could it even be compared?




But to compare, you must first really go through stories plane.

The story began around the middle of the 30s of the last century, when the appearance of a heavy bomber formed in the heads (important) of both commanders and designers aviation future war.

In general, three countries achieved success: the USA, Great Britain and the USSR. In the USA, this resulted in the creation of the B-17 “Flying Fortress”, the British got Halifax, and in our country TB-7.

Then came the sequel, regarding the Americans and the British. Unfortunately, our TB-7 / Pe-8 was released in such a modest series that it’s not worth talking about any comparison with the British and Americans. 97 aircraft, including two prototypes, are very few. 12 731 “Flying Fortress” is, you know, quantity. 1 to 131.



However, ANT-42 was, turned into TB-7, and then renamed to Pe-8. This is our story, by the way, that part that can and should be proud of.



What is the point? The bottom line is that since the beginning of its existence, a country that could only build simple airplanes with imported engines, suddenly flung itself on such a thing as building a heavy bomber.

Yes, there may have been some prerequisites and developments from Sikorsky and Lebedev, but this is so ... "Ilya Muromets" and "Svyatogor" remained in the unimaginably distant past, in the Russian Empire, and other people began to create a new country’s aviation in other circumstances.

The only thing related to RI is the lack of aircraft engines. This problem ceased to be such only at the end of World War II.

In these conditions, to be turned into a “strategist" of that time ... It was rather risky. Moreover, before the work on the prototype ANT-42 began, our heavy bombers looked like ... like TB-1 and TB-3.


TB-1



TB-3


If you look at these planes, placing them next to the TB-7, progress ... no, progress is evident. These are definitely aircraft of different generations. There, RD could well stand nearby, it is also ANT-25, from which, after successful flights to America, the crews of Chkalov and Gromov also wanted to make a very long-range bomber. But it did not happen, so our TB-7 is the only one of its kind.



Naturally, the TB-7 was needed yesterday, because the work was carried out as always, at an accelerated pace, under the fatherly urging of the Air Force leadership. The tests were still going on in the 1937 year, and the generals from the Air Force demanded that five machines be made for the 1 in May 1938 of the year. As usual, to the "next anniversary" ...

Thank God it didn’t work out. And work with a bunch of tweaks and improvements were completed only in the 1939 year.

It was planned to produce TB-7 at Kazan plant No. 124. This was natural, since the plant was under the patronage of Tupolev and was equipped with the latest technology. American. A large number of machines and equipment were purchased in the United States according to the choice of Tupolev himself during his visit.

There were problems. I would call the main problem not the lack of machine tools and equipment, this was an order, the currencies did not spare it. The main problem was personnel shortage. You can, of course, nod to repression, but, in my opinion, the purges of the late 20's - the beginning of the 30's took many specialists to nowhere.

The fact that Tupolev, Petlyakov and others have developed an airplane is really half the battle. The plane had to be built, and for such a machine it was not easy.



A vivid example: TB-7 was, as you know, a four-engine aircraft. But there was a fifth engine, which propelled the ACN-2 centrifugal compressor, supplying air to all 4 motors at high altitude. It was a real highlight of the aircraft, the ACN-2 allowed the aircraft to climb to such a height where it was not afraid of anti-aircraft artillery at all. And the fighter of that time to climb to a height of 10 000 meters was not an easy task.

When the assembly of the first series of aircraft began, it suddenly became clear that there was no one to build the ACN-2. It turned out to be a rather strange situation: the People’s Commissariat of the Aviation Industry simply did not appoint a manufacturer for the ACN-2. As a result, at the facilities of TsIAM (Central Institute of Aviation Motors named after Baranov), 6 ACS-2 units were built, after which the institute categorically refused to build a supercharger further.

And the lack of a supercharger turned the high-altitude monster TB-7 into a rather ordinary bomber with a practical ceiling into the standard 7-8 of thousands of meters. That is very average indicators.

Meanwhile, the high altitude and high speed of flight at this altitude were the "chips" of TB-7, from which the use of the aircraft was built.



To top it off, this is already a classic of the genre, problems began with the supply from the engine factory No. 24 of the main engines AM-34FRN.

And in the second half of the 1939 year, the personnel leapfrog, due to various reasons, began as expected. But the fact that the directors at plant No.124 changed systematically and regularly, so that in the interval from 1936 to 1941 the year of general was 4 (four).

How under such conditions the plant was able to produce the first two cars in general - well, that was a labor feat that was usual for that time. These were fully equipped vehicles with ACN-2. There were machine kits for two more planes, and then ... And then there weren’t even AM-34FRN engines.

The most interesting thing is that TB-7 really wanted to get in the Air Force. Moreover, in decent quantities, in the 1940 year, the Air Force wanted to get 250 aircraft. The plant called the real number in 150, with the well-known reservations "if" with respect to engines and the ATSN.

But the Air Force wanted to get into service with the TB-7, it’s absolutely impossible to say that the bomber was "scored", everything that comes from the unprofessionalism of those planning in the People’s Commissariat. One could demand anything, but if there were no engines and a supercharger for the plane, even the figure named by the director of the plant, Joseph Nezval in the 150 of the planes, turned out to be ... too optimistic.

What happened today is called the word "feil." At the beginning of the 1940 year, the situation was simply awful: for two years, the factory number 124 produced 6 (SIX !!!) machines and the same number were in different degrees of assembly. Without engines, because engines ... Well, you understand.

And of the six aircraft released, two were not with a pair of AM-34FRN + ACN-2, but with AM-35 engines, that is, what was mentioned above.

To say that everything suited everyone - no. The Air Force persistently demanded airplanes, the plant demanded engines, the letter that test pilots Markov and Stefanovsky wrote to Voroshilov himself in December 1939 was preserved in history.

The result ... The result was more than strange. At the beginning of the 1940 of the year, from NKAP, plant No. 124 received instructions to disassemble all the equipment for the manufacture of airframe assemblies, including the removal of assembly stocks. This is like the final point.



Moreover, in order to somehow load the huge plant idle, the NKAP instructs the start of construction of the PS-84, the Soviet version of the Douglas DS-3. On the one hand, the experience later came in handy when copying the Tu-4, which the B-29, on the other, did not become a heavy bomber.

However, letters and appeals did their job, and somehow it reached Stalin himself.

And it began ...

Strange, but for some reason there were no executions and landings. To the great chagrin of a certain caste of writers.

The guilty party was appointed Mikhail Kaganovich, the head of the NKAP, the elder brother of Lazar Kaganovich. In the spring of 1940, Aleksey Shakhurin was appointed to the post of People's Commissar of the Aviation Industry, and Kaganovich was sent to atone for sins to the position of ... Director of Plant No. 124!

Not only was Kaganovich charged with returning the TB-7 assembly, but also obliged to consider the possibility of producing TB-7 with other types of engines, since there was no AM-34FRN, specifically with the M-30 aviation diesel engine.

The M-30 engine was in its class at that time the largest aviation diesel engine in the world. At the beginning of the 1940, the M-30 passed state tests and was launched in a small series at factory No. 82, but was soon withdrawn from the series due to a number of problems.

However, after a change in the leadership of the NKAP, work on it was resumed under the leadership of the deputy commissar Alexander Yakovlev and production began again under the new designation M-40.

However, the operation of the M-40 just on the TB-7 showed that at high altitudes (above 5 000 meters) with insufficiently accurate manual adjustment of the quality of the fuel mixture, the M-40 sometimes stalled. A restart of the diesel in flight by the crew was not always possible. So despite the unequivocal successes, aircraft diesel engines in the global aircraft industry are not widespread. The USSR did not become an exception.


Pe-8 with aviation diesels M-30


Today we can talk a lot about the reasons why this happened. Yes, we did not have the technology and production culture at the highest level, therefore, with the implementation of the idea of ​​using a diesel engine in aviation, I had to say goodbye.

Kaganovich as the director of the plant began to produce AM-35 engines instead of AM-34FRN and at the same time worked on the installation of diesel M-30 and M-40.

Georgy Baidukov himself was invited to test the TB-7 with M-40 engines. This only emphasizes how much the Air Force was interested in TB-7.

State tests in full of all problems of the new engines did not reveal, at least in Baidukov's reports this is not reflected. There were many unpleasant surprises during the military operation, but I am far from thinking that Georgy Filippovich Baidukov had hidden something. Wrong bird flight he was.

Perhaps the first M-40 diesels were assembled so that they did not mow, but the subsequent ones were not very good. The fact is that the “diesel” TB-7 aircraft, even in theory, met the requirements of the 25 Decree. 05. 1940, in practice, it was necessary to fine-tune the entire propeller-engine group of the aircraft.

Although it is entirely possible that Kaganovich and the plant he heads were simply in a hurry to give the Soviet Air Force a good plane. They spoke about the war at all levels then, and so someone, and the brother of Lazar Kaganovich himself was also in the know.

But there is one unpleasant moment. Yes, the practice of beautiful reports already existed then in all its glory and harmfulness. Tests and especially refinements of aircraft with M-40 and M-40F engines dragged on. Factory number 124, in principle, had nothing to do with it, the issue was the lack of knowledge of the motors themselves, but the factory management knew that the M-40 was not perfect. However, for the entire 1941 year, the plant continued to collect “diesel” TB-7 and transfer them to the Air Force.

When the time came to fight, it turned out a lot of sad moments.

As a result, Mikhail Kaganovich shot himself in his office 1 July 1941 year. Without waiting for the party and people to ask for his obvious flaws as commissar and director.

And in the Air Force there were TB-7 with diesel engines M-30 and M-40 and conventional engines AM-34FRN and AM-35 with ACS-2. All of them went to the 14-th TAPAP of the 18-th HELL.



22 June 1941 year, the war began. At the time of the start, the crews of heavy bombers completed their training and were ready to proceed with the implementation of combat training plans.

At the airport in Boryspil, which in the early days of the war was subjected to German air raids, two cars were destroyed and several were damaged. The remnants of 14 TBAP were transferred to Kazan, where the formation of a new regiment on TB-7 aircraft began.

On June 29 on June 1941, the formation of a long-range aviation division as part of 412 TBAP on TB-7 and 420 TBAP on EP-2 began.

To upgrade the 412 TBAP, its commander, Colonel Lebedev, darted all over Ukraine, collecting planes. In Poltava, 8 cars were found, and 6 were also collected at airfields near Kiev and Kharkov. In general, it could have been worse with that organization and the chaos of the first months of the war. In addition, Lebedev took the planes from the LII and the Air Force Research Institute, several aircraft were in assembly stage in Kazan.

In general, the regiment was staffed very mixed. But the composition was selected from among the pilots of polar aviation and civil fleet, with a huge touch in difficult conditions.

Soon the numbering of the regiments changed. The regiment on TB-7 became the 432 APDD.

By early August, the removal and training of aircraft crews were completed, and, in fact, the TB-7 combat work began. Unfortunately, Berlin became the first combat target. The first raid on Berlin took place on 10 on August 1941 and ended in complete failure.



Of the 10 vehicles that left for Berlin (7 - TB-7 and 3 - Ep-2), they reached the target and only six were bombed. Only two cars returned to Pushkin. 6 aircraft made an emergency landing due to the failure of the M-40 engines or damage from anti-aircraft artillery. One was shot down by his fighter, the fate of one aircraft is still unknown.

After this departure, the division commander Hero of the Soviet Union Mikhail Vodopyanov was removed from the post of division commander, and Colonel Golovanov was appointed in his place. After dismissal, the brigade commander Vodopyanov continued his service as a simple crew commander of TB-7.

The TB-7 remaining in service, after some time, were brought into the 746 BAP. After the loss of Tallinn and bases on the islands of the Baltic Sea, raids on Berlin stopped. ADD aircraft continued to fly on combat missions on long and short range targets. And as the enemy approached Moscow and Leningrad, heavy bombers were taken to the airfield of the city of Kovrov, Vladimir Region, from which TB-7 flew to combat missions in the autumn-winter of 1941-1942.

An interesting nuance: diesels were no longer installed on the TB-7, for well-known reasons, but aircraft with the M-40 were still in operation. But no one was in a hurry to write off the M-40 or change it to AM-35, because "diesel" aircraft had a longer flight range than "gasoline" ones, and were reserved just for work on very distant targets.



In addition to working on long-range targets, TB-7 attacked targets in German-occupied Soviet territory. The tactics were as follows: raids were carried out by single crews, using the high-altitude characteristics of the TB-7. This made it possible to get close to the target at high altitude undetected and deliver heavy attacks on targets.

TB-7 could take up to 30 FAB-100, that is, as 5 Pe-2 bombers. The question was only accurate.

The flights were mainly carried out at night, but in critical moments, such as the fall offensive against Moscow, the TB-7 went on combat missions for tactical purposes and during the daytime. Of course, the two TB-7, led by Vodopyanov, striking at the mechanized units of the Wehrmacht, can not be compared with the 1047 of the British and American bombers over Cologne or 1520 over Hamburg.


Pe-8 group in flight


In February 1942, V. M. Petlyakov died in a plane crash. After his death, the government decides to assign the designation Pe-7 in accordance with the new designation system for TB-8 aircraft.

The combat operation of long-range bomber formations, including crews on the TB-7, during the fall-winter of the 1941-1942 years showed the effectiveness and (not least) the need for long-range aviation.

On 5 of March 1942 of the year, by the decision of the GKO, it was decided to create a separate type of troops - Long-Range Aviation (ADD). From now on, the compounds of distant bombers stood out from the Red Army Air Force and were directly subordinate to the Headquarters of the Supreme Commander.

In the spring of the 1942 of the year, at the time of the formation of the ADD, the role of the Pe-8 in this new branch was extremely subtle. All Pe-8, which were in service at that time, were consolidated in the 746-th BAP as part of the 45-th Airborne Division ADD. There were 11 Pe-8 in the regiment, of which only 8 units were operational.



But even with so many pilots, Pe-8 tried to make a feasible contribution to the victory.

It is worth noting the creation, especially under Pe-8, of the largest at that time of the Soviet bomb FAB-5000.

FAB-5000 weighed 5080 kg, had a diameter of 1000 mm and a length corresponding to the length of the Pe-8 bomb bay. From the explosion of such a bomb, a funnel with a diameter of 18-24 m and a depth of 6-9 m was formed on the ground. A large railway bridge could be destroyed by such a bomb, even if the bomb exploded at 10-15 m from it.

Prior to this, the largest bomb that Pe-8 raised was the FAB-2000 bomb.

The bomb was located along the length of the Pe-8 compartment, but its meter diameter led to it protruding significantly beyond the fuselage contours and did not allow to completely cover the bomb doors.



By the way, in 15 years, it was the Tupolev Design Bureau’s unit under the leadership of I. F. Nezval, which “stuffed” the FAB-5000 into the Pe-8, will receive the task of placing the 202 thermonuclear bomb with the capacity of 100 megatons in the Tu-95 bomb bay.

On April 29 1943, the FAB-8 bomb on Koenigsberg was dropped from Pe-5000. Then there was a successful bombing on the concentration of German troops in the Mogilev region. On June 4, using the FAB-5000, we plowed the railway lines in the Orel region, making it difficult to transfer German troops to the Kursk ledge area.

By the way, not after the fall of the FAB-5000 in Helsinki in the 1944 year, did the Finns seriously think about what could come next?

In total, until the spring of 1944, the 13 FAB-5000 was dropped by German troops.

It is worth noting the peaceful flights of the Pe-8, the benefits of which were no less than military ones, and maybe even more.

It was the Pe-8 that drove the crews of the pilot-distractors to England, who drove the planes to the USSR. And they drove successfully.

We already wrote about that crazy flight, when in May PeNXXX in May 8, Molotov flew to the USA.


Pe-Xnumx in the UK


The commander of the ship was Pusep, the former co-pilot of Vodopyanov, the co-pilot - Obukhov, navigator - Romanov, engineer - Zolotarev. The plane passed through the front line over occupied Europe and landed on one of the airports in Northern Scotland. From Scotland, the Pe-8 flew to Reykjavik in Iceland, then, passing Newfoundland, headed for Washington, where it successfully landed.


Pe-8 at the US Airfield


Molotov flew back along the same route.

For the successful special flight, both pilots and the navigator were awarded the titles of Heroes of the Soviet Union, and the rest of the crew were awarded military orders.

This flight greatly lifted the spirit that in the Tupolev Design Bureau, that in the factory number 124. It was a really convincing demonstration of the capabilities of both the Pe-8 and the new AM-35A engines.

The 1944 year was the last year of the combat use of the Pe-8.



The main reason was not even obsolescence of machines and physical fatigue of equipment. The Red Army was approaching the borders of the Third Reich, of course, the ADD was relocated after the advancing troops, therefore, the aircraft could further penetrate into German space for bombing.

But then the pilots would have to face the most powerful German air defense, equipped with radars on the ground and night fighters with radar. Plus anti-aircraft batteries with a tip on the same radars.

Given the small number of Pe-8 remaining in service, the command came to the conclusion that pilots with such experience needed to be saved, and the tasks that the Pe-8 crews solved were quite capable of fulfilling the pilots of ordinary bomber regiments flying in the afternoon. During the day, superiority in the sky was already behind Soviet aircraft.

The Pe-8 military career ended in the 1946 year, and soon the Tu-4 began to replace them in the shelves. And most of the Pe-8 was decommissioned and disposed of.

After the war, several surviving machines were used in polar aviation and as flying laboratories for testing new engines and promising aviation and missile systems.



LTH Pe-8

Wingspan, m: 39,10
Length, m: 23,59
Height, m: 6,20
Wing area, м2: 188,68

Weight, kg
- empty aircraft: 19 986
- normal takeoff: 27 000
- Maximum takeoff: 35 000

Engine: 4 x AM-35A x 1350 hp

Maximum speed km / h
- by the ground: 347
- at height: 443

Practical range, km: 3600
Rate of climb, m / min: 352
Practical ceiling, m: 9 300
Crew, prs: 11

Armament:
- two 20-mm ShVAK guns,
- two 12,7-mm machine guns UBT,
- two 7,62-mm ShKAS machine guns,
- bomb load: normal 2000 kg, maximum - 4000 kg bombs.

Is it worth comparing Pe-8 with foreign colleagues? We will compare. At the appropriate time in OBM. Of course, as I said, the construction of such an aircraft today would be equated to an atomic cruiser or an aircraft carrier.

The fact that we were able to develop such an airplane, keeping up with the Americans and the British, is a feat in itself. The fact that these planes went through the entire war suggests that the feat was not in vain.









The fact that we were not able to build Pe-8s in thousands, like the British and Americans ... Well, unlike them, we had something to build. We needed Tanks, guns, trucks, fighters, rifles and machine guns.

Of course, building a bunch of heavy bombers, being thousands of kilometers from the front line, is not so difficult. And we would build, I'm sure of that.

Yes, immediately after the war, the Tu-4 that entered service was nothing but the B-29, which was simply copied. But then we have gone further and still are exclusively our achievements. So, starting with Ilya Muromets, through Pe-8 to Tu-160, such a development of long-range aviation is quite normal.
Author:
128 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. Nycomed
    Nycomed 8 October 2019 18: 26 New
    +10
    I read somewhere that Pe-8 installed both M-105 and ASH-82. Well, what else to say about this good aircraft: it was just that at that time there was a weak technical and technological discipline, a lack of qualified personnel both among engineers and workers. The car could probably have been brought to mind, but by then it would have been hopelessly out of date.
    1. Alf
      Alf 8 October 2019 20: 29 New
      +7
      Quote: Nycomed
      I read somewhere that Pe-8 installed both M-105 and ASH-82.

      There were options with the ASH-82FN, but about the M-105 there is great doubt. 1050 mares are too few.
    2. Ros 56
      Ros 56 9 October 2019 06: 34 New
      +8
      The fact that this aircraft was created, and not only it, is actually a feat of our grandfathers. Just look at the state of industry and agriculture in our country for the period 1930.
    3. PilotS37
      PilotS37 9 October 2019 16: 02 New
      +2
      Quote: Nycomed
      Well, what else to say about this good aircraft: it was just that at that time there was a weak technical and technological discipline, a lack of qualified personnel both among engineers and workers. The car could probably have been brought to mind, but by then it would have been hopelessly out of date.

      Add another landing of the Chief Designer, then his death. In 1942, Design Bureau Petlyakova went under the wing of Myasishchev, and he had his own project for the long-range bomber - DVB-102 ...
      1. Alf
        Alf 9 October 2019 20: 45 New
        0
        Quote: PilotS37
        and he had his own project of a distant "bomber" - DVB-102 ...

        The plane was, there was no motor. Neither the M-120 nor the M-71F were completed.
  2. Fanis
    Fanis 8 October 2019 18: 32 New
    +5
    It’s nice to know that we could and can do complex equipment, no matter what ...
    1. Doliva63
      Doliva63 9 October 2019 19: 35 New
      +4
      Quote: Fanis
      It’s nice to know that we could and can do complex equipment, no matter what ...

      Could - yes, but now only the very Soviet equipment is modernized.
  3. Lexus
    Lexus 8 October 2019 18: 37 New
    +9
    The plane passed through the front line over occupied Europe and landed on one of the airports in Northern Scotland. From Scotland, the Pe-8 flew to Reykjavik in Iceland, then, passing Newfoundland, headed for Washington, where it successfully landed.

    Yeah, dashing times and people.
    1. PilotS37
      PilotS37 9 October 2019 16: 04 New
      +3
      Quote: lexus
      Yeah, dashing times and people.

      For a minute, a third party in the country ...
      Galal seems to have had a rather detailed account of this flight.
      1. Lexus
        Lexus 9 October 2019 20: 02 New
        -2
        For a minute, a third party in the country ...

        That's it!

        In the UK

        It’s a pity I didn’t read this story.
  4. AU Ivanov.
    AU Ivanov. 8 October 2019 18: 39 New
    +35
    The ACS was not a "highlight" of the aircraft, but a forced technical solution. Due to the lack of experience in the production of exhaust-driven turbochargers. To carry an entire aircraft engine on board to drive a supercharger, which also eats fuel, is another highlight.
    1. tesser
      tesser 8 October 2019 21: 22 New
      +13
      Quote: AU Ivanov.
      Due to the lack of experience in the production of exhaust-driven turbochargers.

      An exhaust-driven turbocharger is a hell of a hi-tech, it is made by one company in the world (and in large quantities - only from the 42nd). The rest (British, Germans) used superchargers driven by the motor shaft. But in the pre-war USSR, it was hard with that. Naturally, the fifth engine in terms of mass and fuel consumption is a bad decision.
      1. Narak-zempo
        Narak-zempo 8 October 2019 23: 42 New
        +5
        Directly removed from the tongue.
        The lack of turbocharging did not prevent the Germans, and especially the British, from maintaining the highest engine characteristics during the war, both in specific parameters and in altitude. It is due to the excellence of driven centrifugal superchargers.
        We have been tinkering with turbochargers since the late 30s, but they only brought to mind the ASH-73TK for the Tu-4, having American models in front of us.
        And while the main “fighter” engine M-105 had an extremely unsuccessful design station, inherited from the French prototype, attempts to equip it with a two-stage supercharger did not bring success. Mikulin’s business with the two-stage monitoring station didn’t go any better for the AM-37, and then the topic was completely closed in favor of the AM-38, which is “like bread, like air”.
        1. Dooplet11
          Dooplet11 9 October 2019 08: 29 New
          0
          And while the main "fighter" engine M-105 had an extremely unsuccessful design station, inherited from the French prototype, attempts to equip it with a two-stage supercharger did not bring success.
          - What do you mean by the "stage" of the supercharger? The resulting "French prototype" Hispano 12Ybrs (licensed M-100) did not have a monitoring station.
          1. Dooplet11
            Dooplet11 9 October 2019 08: 49 New
            0
            Summed up the memory. ))) M-100 had a single-stage single-speed monitoring station.
          2. Narak-zempo
            Narak-zempo 9 October 2019 22: 08 New
            0
            Quote: Dooplet11
            what do you mean by the "stage" of the supercharger?

            The monitoring station is a centrifugal compressor. It can be single-stage, i.e. consisting of one wheel with blades, and multi-stage, when several wheels are operated sequentially, which allows to achieve a higher boost pressure
            https://youtu.be/595LZbqsGBU
            Typically, such an assembly requires the presence of an intercooler, as excessive heating of the air with such a strong compression reduces the efficiency of boost.
            1. Dooplet11
              Dooplet11 10 October 2019 06: 00 New
              0
              Thank. Simply, many two-speed PNCs are called two-stage. And this is not true. As for the M-105, it had its own PNC, different from the Hispano 12Ybrs (M-100). And the M-105 PD with the two-stage Dolcezhal PNC had some success.
              1. Narak-zempo
                Narak-zempo 10 October 2019 08: 28 New
                0
                Quote: Dooplet11
                Thank. Simply, many two-speed PNCs are called two-stage. And this is not true. As for the M-105, it had its own PNC, different from the Hispano 12Ybrs (M-100). And the M-105 PD with the two-stage Dolcezhal PNC had some success.

                Do not confuse a two-speed and two-stage supercharger.
                Two-speed should be taken literally - its drive allows you to set 2 compressor rotation speeds, adjusting the boost depending on the flight altitude.
                1. Dooplet11
                  Dooplet11 10 October 2019 08: 31 New
                  +1
                  I do not confuse. Many are confused, yes. Therefore, I also clarified what you had in mind.
        2. Dooplet11
          Dooplet11 9 October 2019 09: 06 New
          +2
          the M-105 engine had an extremely unsuccessful monitoring station, inherited from the French prototype; attempts to equip it with a two-stage supercharger did not bring success.


          There was some success. M-105 And the two-speed monitoring station of the M-105 PA engine (PF) cannot be called unsuccessful. It worked reliably, the required boost pressure provided. Efficiency was at the level.
        3. irontom
          irontom 9 October 2019 15: 10 New
          0
          Read the article Lev Burne, Vladimir Perov ALEXANDER MIKULIN, MAN - LEGEND
      2. dgonni
        dgonni 9 October 2019 11: 43 New
        0
        Not since 1942, but since 1939 after being accepted into the B-17A series!
        The fact that hi-tech and yes !. Especially considering the fact that it was produced in mass quantities with acceptable quality!
        1. tesser
          tesser 9 October 2019 12: 16 New
          0
          Quote: dgonni
          and since 1939 after being accepted into the B-17A series!

          I wrote massively. B-17 to version E (autumn 41st) made 134 pieces. The main version is G - the 43rd year.
          Quote: dgonni
          Especially considering the fact that it was produced in mass quantities with acceptable quality!

          This is yes, in which well done - in well done.
  5. mark1
    mark1 8 October 2019 18: 53 New
    +3
    By the way, turbochargers stood on the M-40, and on our M-40 and ACh (M) -30 aircraft diesel engines they were used until the end of the war. And with that. that TCs were placed on ADD aircraft (Pe-8, Ep-2) and everything seemed to suit everyone, installation on fighters (in series) was not carried out in view of their "low reliability"
    1. mark1
      mark1 8 October 2019 19: 34 New
      +2
      [quoteA restarting a diesel engine in flight by crew was not always possible. ] [/ quote] After installing the drive centrifugal blower in addition to the TC, the problem was solved (ACh-30B)
    2. Alf
      Alf 8 October 2019 20: 34 New
      +2
      Quote: mark1
      By the way, turbochargers stood on the M-40, and on our M-40 and ACh (M) -30 aircraft diesel engines they were used until the end of the war. And with that. that TCs were placed on ADD aircraft (Pe-8, Ep-2) and everything seemed to suit everyone, installation on fighters (in series) was not carried out in view of their "low reliability"

      Maybe because the PE-8 was a piece of goods and it was possible to bring each TK individually? With the mass release of fighters, such a trick would not have worked.
      1. mark1
        mark1 8 October 2019 21: 10 New
        +4
        Yes, it wasn’t a thing - the bearings and heat-resistant alloys, you still won’t bring it to hand (though there was enough elementary violation of the technology). On fighter jets, TKs were mainly required to intercept the Yu-86 from 1943, in general, also in piece quantities, but if the ADDs of the TK went awry (and the requirements for reliability are still quite high) then on the rear interceptors (for more quiet operation) for some reason they did not dare to put them.
        1. Alf
          Alf 8 October 2019 21: 11 New
          +1
          Quote: mark1
          Yes, it wasn’t a thing - the bearings and heat-resistant alloys, you still won’t bring it to hand (though there was enough elementary violation of the technology). On fighter jets, TKs were mainly required to intercept the Yu-86 from 1943, in general, also in piece quantities, but if the ADDs of the TK went awry (and the requirements for reliability are still quite high) then on the rear interceptors (for more quiet operation) for some reason they did not dare to put them.

          Maybe you are right.
        2. Amurets
          Amurets 9 October 2019 00: 08 New
          +8
          Quote: mark1
          but if they went awkwardly in the ADC of the shopping mall (and the requirements for reliability are still quite high), then for some reason they did not dare put them on the rear interceptors (for a quieter operation).

          They tried to put turbocompressors on the experimental Su-3 fighters in front of the Second World War, but the war prevented it and the work stopped.

          It is impossible to say that work was not carried out at all. I. Shelest: To equip several serial YAKs with motors with high-pressure superchargers of the Dollezhal system turned out to be the fastest and most real thing.
          It is difficult now to say how many days it took: a week? Two? During the war, they worked around the clock and so intensively that they could do the job in such a time, which in peacetime would need a quarter.
          In a word, very soon high-altitude aircraft appeared at the Central airfield, where they were immediately included in the duty link, although debugging work was still ongoing. They worked day and night: on the hangar site, when the aircraft were put on duty; by spotlights in a darkened hangar; They worked so that at any moment of clear weather, when a German appeared, it was possible to raise a fighter into the air.
      2. PilotS37
        PilotS37 9 October 2019 16: 09 New
        0
        Quote: Alf
        Maybe because the PE-8 was a piece of goods and it was possible to bring each TK individually? With the mass release of fighters, such a trick would not have worked.

        It’s just that the Pe-8 had FOUR engines and it could have flown by THREE somehow (not to fall immediately), but for a fighter with ONE engine this focus would not have come out (and didn’t go out) ...
    3. tesser
      tesser 8 October 2019 21: 26 New
      +9
      Quote: mark1
      installation on fighters (as standard) was not carried out in view of their "low reliability"

      Naturally.
      A diesel engine has a relatively low exhaust temperature. Therefore, turbocharging before the war appeared on serial commercial trucks (Sauber, EMNIP).
      Turbocharging on a gasoline engine, all the more highly accelerated, works in much more severe conditions. Including, therefore, the Americans on the P-47 did not hook the turbine to the engine, as they do now, but carried it out into the tail of the aircraft and pulled air ducts towards it: so the exhaust gases had time to cool down a bit.
      1. mark1
        mark1 9 October 2019 06: 00 New
        0
        Enhanced enough, you +
    4. haron
      haron 11 November 2019 21: 16 New
      0
      Quote: mark1
      And with that. that TCs were placed on ADD aircraft (Pe-8, Ep-2) and everything seemed to suit everyone, installation on fighters (in series) was not carried out in view of their "low reliability"

      In the days of "former luxury", when I could learn a tool for a mechanic after school before the army and work at the QUARTZ factory (This is the extreme west of the far west of the Ussr), So in 1988 there was a full-time cnc revolver spinning there from general electric. So here is the old burnt locksmith, "Palych" maliciously metal in the trowel brutally sharpened drills, mills and other cutting tools requiring periodic sharpening. Then in the smoking room he creaked stingily that because of such krivorukovyh .... sinking, we in the war, on the surfaces with the required 8th cleanliness barely reached the 5th.
      Tool sharpening, like banalism, but either there was no diamond with the desired grain size, or laziness was to change the sequence from large to clean.
      It seems to be a trifle, but the surface of the cylinder was like a washboard. This is from his words.
  6. evgic
    evgic 8 October 2019 19: 00 New
    +7
    You can, of course, nod to repression, but, in my opinion, the purges of the late 20s and early 30s took many specialists to nowhere.
    It is not clear what kind of specialists are we talking about? Specialists in aircraft manufacturing and aircraft engines simply did not exist in the Republic of Ingushetia and could not be in the USSR in the 20s; everything was done practically from scratch. As there were no skilled workers to organize production.
  7. Nasrat
    Nasrat 8 October 2019 19: 09 New
    +4
    You can learn more about the plane, about Molotov’s flight to Washington and back (a very heroic flight!), From the memoirs:
    Endel Pusep - Anxious Sky
    Infa, for those who did not know ... I think there are not many of these, and nevertheless, the book is interesting in facts from an eyewitness and a direct participant in the events.
    1. AU Ivanov.
      AU Ivanov. 8 October 2019 19: 15 New
      +4
      There is a documentary on this flight, it was played either on the "History" channel, or on "365 days of TV". There is an interview with Andel Pusep.
      1. Nasrat
        Nasrat 8 October 2019 19: 23 New
        0
        I didn’t look .. but I read the book. there’s a lot of interesting things ... even if the plane in Washington "lost" the chassis - it was too hot for them, "burned out" on landing - the Americans restored the tire in 5 days and they, restored, allowed to return to Moscow ... When Pusep asked about the reliability of the restored - the American showed the logo of the company on a tire - say, don’t worry - a quality mark ... but they drove to restore tires in Detroit ..
        1. AU Ivanov.
          AU Ivanov. 8 October 2019 19: 30 New
          +3
          In Artyom Drabkin’s book from the series “I Fought” there are memories of the Pe-8 co-pilot.
          1. Nasrat
            Nasrat 8 October 2019 19: 32 New
            0
            need to read .. thanks for the info
            1. AU Ivanov.
              AU Ivanov. 8 October 2019 19: 34 New
              +2
              Read the whole series. There are infantry and reconnaissance, and tankers and pilots of all specializations, from nightlights on Po-2 to fighters. Real memories of real veterans. Without embellishment.
              1. Nasrat
                Nasrat 8 October 2019 19: 42 New
                +1
                Thank. now I’m reading the memoirs of Pyotr Alekseevich Mikhin, the artilleryman .. before that I read the memoirs of Krysov Vasily Semenovich, the memoirs of Mansur Abdulin .... I like to read information in a word, which is called “first-hand”

                be sure to read what you advised ... thanks
          2. PilotS37
            PilotS37 9 October 2019 16: 27 New
            0
            Quote: AU Ivanov.
            In Artyom Drabkin’s book from the series “I Fought” there are memories of the Pe-8 co-pilot.

            And you can read Mark Lazarevich Gallal: he also fought for some time on the Pe-8, was shot down, got to the partisans ...
    2. Alf
      Alf 8 October 2019 20: 36 New
      +1
      Quote: Nasr
      You can learn more about the plane, about Molotov’s flight to Washington and back (a very heroic flight!), From the memoirs:
      Endel Pusep - Anxious Sky
      Infa, for those who did not know ... I think there are not many of these, and nevertheless, the book is interesting in facts from an eyewitness and a direct participant in the events.

      Somewhere flashed infa that during the flight the alarm in the air defense of the Reich and trodden Europe was not announced. Did not see ?
      1. tesser
        tesser 8 October 2019 21: 30 New
        0
        Quote: Alf
        that during the flight the alarm in the air defense of the Reich and trodden Europe was not announced.

        So this is Suvorov))). Day M is kind of.

        Naturally, the alarm was not announced, the flight pattern is higher. They didn’t fly into Vaterland, but would fly - air defense is not twin-core, it didn’t react to single night flights, especially in the 42nd night there aren’t much.
        1. Alf
          Alf 8 October 2019 21: 47 New
          0
          Quote: tesser
          Air defense is not twin-core, did not respond to single night flights,

          Could anyone in the Reich air defense be interested in a lone bomber at high altitude scratching from EAST to WEST?
          1. tesser
            tesser 8 October 2019 22: 05 New
            +3
            Quote: Alf
            would not be interested in a lone bomber jacket

            No.
            First of all, how do you know that this is a bomber jacket. Can you imagine the radars of that time? Secondly, well, they missed, so when I flew east, I also care. Thirdly, it is Denmark in general, and not Germany, let anyone want to fly. In the east, he flew past East Prussia, but there is not particularly strategic air defense.
            1. Alf
              Alf 8 October 2019 22: 17 New
              +1
              Quote: tesser
              Quote: Alf
              would not be interested in a lone bomber jacket

              No.
              First of all, how do you know that this is a bomber jacket. Can you imagine the radars of that time? Secondly, well, they missed, so when I flew east, I also care. Thirdly, it is Denmark in general, and not Germany, let anyone want to fly. In the east, he flew past East Prussia, but there is not particularly strategic air defense.

              Your option has a right to exist.
            2. Town Hall
              Town Hall 8 October 2019 23: 50 New
              0
              At 65, Churchill also flew over occupied Europe, the Mediterranean Sea and the warring North Africa in August 42 on Commando
            3. Oyo Sarkazmi
              Oyo Sarkazmi 10 October 2019 11: 31 New
              0
              Quote: tesser
              Firstly, how do you know that this is a bomber jacket.

              Germany still complied with the gentlemen's agreement - civilian aircraft should not be shot down. The postal Mosquito (and also bombers) regularly flew to Stockholm and Switzerland. Dulles, a US intelligence resident, did not crawl at night from the coast of France to Bern. And arrived in a passenger plane.
              1. tesser
                tesser 10 October 2019 12: 25 New
                0
                Quote: Oyo Sarkazmi
                civilian aircraft do not shoot down

                You are right, but I’m not sure about the civil registration of Molotov’s plane.
      2. Nasrat
        Nasrat 8 October 2019 21: 56 New
        +5
        Quote: Alf

        Somewhere flashed infa that during the flight the alarm in the air defense of the Reich and trodden Europe was not announced. Did not see ?

        When they returned to Moscow (the whole world already knew about the drive), there was a high probability of meeting with German aces ...
        from the book:

        - The British offer us to return to Moscow through Africa in order to get rid of the risk when flying through enemy-occupied territories. How do you look at it? - unexpectedly asked me Molotov.

        “It makes no sense,” I answered firmly. “Flying through the sultry deserts of Africa and the mountains of Iran is fraught with even more dangers and risks than all that we have already left behind. With the proposed route, we have to fly over the ocean again, along the shores of occupied France and Franco-Spain ... Then cross the Sahara desert, over which the air temperature at this time of year is significantly higher than that acceptable for normal engine operation ...

        By the way, the question of the flight route home remained unresolved then. It was decided only after consultation with General Golovanov, who resolutely rejected the English proposal, which was impossible for us for technical reasons.

        We understood that the British proposal to fly through Africa did not arise by itself. The fact is that Hitler’s intelligence sniffed about the stay of our government delegation in London, and the enemy, of course, will do everything possible to intercept our plane on the way home. To capture the People’s Commissar of Foreign Affairs of the Soviet Union would be a sensation!

        But this sensation did not work ...

        - In your opinion, should we not publish the results of our flight before returning to Moscow? - asked the new commissar, peering at me through his pince-nez.

        I understood the meaning of the question. If the radio stations of Moscow, London and Washington inform the world of the results of the negotiations and publish the treaties concluded between the allied powers, then the enemy will have the assumption that we are already in Moscow. (At the conclusion of the agreements, it was agreed that they would be published upon the return of V. M. Molotov to the USSR). And you can imagine what kind of storm a demoniac Fuhrer will raise upon learning about it. It will be transferred to Abwehr chief Canaris, Himmler and many other leaders of intelligence.

        - It will be wonderful! I exclaimed. - Let's say today to publish, and tomorrow to start in Moscow.

        - I think so too. So tomorrow is on the way. When do you take off?

        “At twenty-zero-zero, according to the average local summer time.”

        “Better, let's think, in Moscow,” and the People's Commissar, smiling, nodded at his watch.
        More recently, we cursed clouds and thunderous fronts, and now we need bad weather, we need to hide in clouds from the searchlights and fighters of the enemy.

        Weather forecasters gave excellent weather: continuous clouds and a strong tailwind! You can’t imagine any better.
        1. Nasrat
          Nasrat 8 October 2019 22: 01 New
          +5
          The last foreign start ... Full throttle, the plane runs smoothly and quietly takes off the ground. Over the sea we make a 180-degree turn and fly eastward over the just abandoned airfield. Downstairs waving hats, scarves, and I see two Spitfires, small fighters, taking off on the same runway. Having sharply gained height, they are attached to us on the right and on the left.

          The pilots of these brisk airplanes turned out to be true masters of their craft. Attached close to us, they perfectly kept the interval and distance, without leaving us even in the clouds. It seemed that we were driving their small cars in tow. Flying the whole island from west to east, I thought that our satellites would turn back to me. But no! Despite our signals and wing-to-wing swings, they stubbornly continue flying with us. Finally, one of them lags behind and goes back, but another half an hour flies with us over the lead waves of the North Sea ...

          Twilight is approaching from the east. Rare stars are already shining overhead. This is inappropriate for us. Having lost time to replace a broken wheel, we meet dusk earlier than we wanted. Everything moved west, including the sunrise.

          We go all the time with a climb, and the higher we climb, the clearer we see the pale pink streak of sunrise in front.

          - Navigators, where will we meet the sun?

          - Dawn over the Baltic Sea, the sun rises over Koenigsberg.

          “So ... And where do the clouds end?”
          - In the same place, at Koenigsberg. Further it is clear.

          “If so, then go up to the ceiling,” I summarize. Yes! The jester would have taken them ... Not all is well. From Koenigsberg to the front line there is still a long way to go, and we will have to fly in the clear sky in broad daylight ... Even in that fortunate occasion (which we firmly hope), if the enemy is not waiting for us, any observer can find us and send fighters to us. This time air combat is completely useless to us.

          Quiet on the ship. All portholes and windows are curtained, light bulbs illuminate only jobs on the tables of navigators and radio operators. Nizovtsev and Mukhanov (unlike the unlucky Campbell) already have contact with Moscow and transmit short messages in precisely scheduled minutes. Height 4000 meters. I give the command:

          - Wear oxygen masks for everyone!

          Zolotarev and Dmitriev are already in masks, bending close to the phosphorescent dials of the instruments in order to see their readings. Obukhov is a ship. He himself asked about this, "to fill his hand."

          In the passenger compartment, Kozhin checks oxygen masks and pressure. He makes sure that they do not fall asleep. Today it is again prohibited.

          Slowly growing height: 5000 ... 5500 ... 6000 meters. It's already getting chilly. The height has exceeded 7000 meters, but today this is not enough.
          1. Nasrat
            Nasrat 8 October 2019 22: 04 New
            +6
            The height is 8000 meters, but the needle of the variometer, with a small start, stands slightly above the zero mark. So let's get a little more ...

            From the east, the first ray of sunshine splashed. Clouds, circles of propellers, faces of navigators and pilots immediately turned pink. A cloud cover is melting before our eyes. For now, a barely noticeable transparent veil hangs over the dark surface of the sea. Konigsberg is somewhere far to the right. Ahead of us is the Latvian coast.

            - Arrows, watch the air carefully! - I give a command that has not been given for many days.

            - Have a look! - one after another all five shooters report.

            I look at the clock. We seem to be flying not very long, but we already waved it decent. Doubting my calculations, I ask the navigators:

            - What is the ground speed?

            “More than five hundred,” Sasha replies cheerfully, “in an hour we will be on the front line.”

            Wow! We rush like a fighter.

            “Comrade Major, the People’s Commissar is interested in when we arrive in Moscow?” - asks Kozhin.

            “In two hours,” the navigator answers.

            “A radiogram from Moscow: the front line should be reached at maximum height,” reports Nizovtsev.

            I take note. Everything that our motors could scrape together was taken. We go at an altitude of 8500 meters. You won’t be able to dial more. Engines run at full power. Ahead, a little to the left of our course, sparkled with silver. Lake!

            - I see Ilmen, the front line is ahead! - loudly inform the crew.

            Beyond the lake and the river Lovat, our troops are already fighting. We are almost home! Although the front line still had to fly for about twenty minutes, the voltage drops.

            The bottom should be warm, and we have a temperature of 35 degrees below zero.

            A plane flies under a blue sky, circles of screws sparkle in the sun, windows of windows illuminate ... Let no one see them from the ground ...
  8. Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 8 October 2019 19: 54 New
    +4
    And in the second half of the 1939 year, the personnel leapfrog, due to various reasons, began as expected. But the fact that the directors at plant No.124 changed systematically and regularly, so that in the interval from 1936 to 1941 the year of general was 4 (four).

    If we take the period 1939-1941, there was one reason: after signing the Pact and getting acquainted with the German aviation industry, our specialists estimated the daily output of aircraft in the Reich at 70-80 aircraft. And then there was a reaction - we urgently need to increase our output. In fact, in 1940, the mobilization of the aviation industry began, accompanied by a sharp increase in plans, a sharp increase in the number of employees and a sharp decrease in the average qualification of workers and the quality of manufactured vehicles. It came to the point that 50% of the marriage was declared an achievement.
    In this situation, the directors, who could not cope with the task of the party and government, lost their posts at once. True, after that they could be appointed director of another plant. smile
  9. antivirus
    antivirus 8 October 2019 19: 57 New
    +3
    in the bomb bay Tu-95.
    thus began the journey from the NKKrupskaya school, she taught, singled out, trained teachers, and they, in turn, already gave knowledge of algebra and thermodynamics to peasant jerks. Snots flew to the stars.
    only 30 years have passed.
  10. Undecim
    Undecim 8 October 2019 20: 01 New
    +9
    In general, three countries achieved success: the USA, Great Britain and the USSR. In the USA, this resulted in the creation of the B-17 “Flying Fortress”, the British got Halifax, and in our country TB-7.
    If approached objectively, then the Italian Piaggio P.108 of 1939 cannot be attributed to failure either.

    True, the Italians in the bomber version managed to build only 24 cars.
  11. Undecim
    Undecim 8 October 2019 20: 19 New
    +13
    The flight of the delegation led by Molotov to America took place on the standard Pe-8. The only thing that was done for passengers was the installation of temporary seats in the central compartment. Passengers, and among them were women, were dressed in fur overalls and equipped with oxygen devices. The temperature overboard reached -40 ° C, it was also cold in the makeshift passenger cabin.
    In mid-1943, work began on the conversion of two Pe-8s into the "OH" version for special purposes.

    Pe-8ON (special purpose).
    ACh-Z0B were installed on two passenger Pe-8 OHs No. 42612 and 42712. These aircraft were completed at the end of 1944. A comfortable cabin for 12 people was equipped in the central compartment of the cars, it had three berths, a buffet and toilet room. Inside, the passenger cabin was sheathed with sound-insulating material with decorative upholstery, which was not at all easy to find in wartime conditions. The cabin had heating, however, was not airtight, so passengers in high altitude flights had to use oxygen masks. The bomb compartments of these two Pe-8 OHs were redone for the transport of baggage (up to 1200 kg).
    Outwardly, the aircraft differed from the bombers by the presence of cut-through windows in the passenger compartment area and the streamlined upper part of the fuselage - the TAT cannon turret was abolished. The rest of the defensive weapons remained the same. An additional difference between the Pe-8 “OH” was the presence of a long run in the area of ​​the base of the keel, the so-called forkil.
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 8 October 2019 20: 21 New
      +12

      Bedroom aboard the Pe-8 OH.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 8 October 2019 20: 23 New
        +13

        Passenger compartment.
        1. tesser
          tesser 8 October 2019 21: 42 New
          +2
          The Americans also made a couple of hundred passenger liberators, the C-87. Pretty similar inside.
          Although in their case it was rather a fad - there are C-46, C-54, C-69 even.
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 8 October 2019 22: 38 New
            +1
            Pretty similar inside.
            Pretty similar inside - this is the transport Consolidated C-87 Liberator Express.
            And for VIPs was the C-87A.
            1. Undecim
              Undecim 8 October 2019 22: 42 New
              +3

              Even flight attendants were envisaged.
  12. Avior
    Avior 8 October 2019 20: 53 New
    +3
    Missed 200 Condor and Italian Piaggio 108 on the list of heavy bombers Fokke Wolf XNUMX.
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 8 October 2019 22: 06 New
      +3
      The Focke-Wulf Fw 200 Condor was designed as a civilian aircraft commissioned by Deutsche Lufthansa.
      1. Town Hall
        Town Hall 8 October 2019 22: 24 New
        +1
        Not 177 Griffin?
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 8 October 2019 22: 51 New
          +1
          Do you think that an airplane with a combat radius of 1500 km, adopted for service in 1942, is a success?
          1. Town Hall
            Town Hall 8 October 2019 22: 58 New
            -1
            Anything better than TB-7 will be.
            1. Undecim
              Undecim 8 October 2019 23: 13 New
              +4
              And what is his "best"?
              1. Town Hall
                Town Hall 8 October 2019 23: 15 New
                +2
                In everything. We released 1000 pieces, really fought. I flew on, carried more bombs
                1. Undecim
                  Undecim 8 October 2019 23: 50 New
                  +5
                  The fact that the Pe-8s released less than 100 pieces and its participation in the hostilities can be considered symbolic - the problem is not an airplane, the problem of production.
                  As for the “best” and “worst” - without determining the criteria for comparison in advance - the conversation is meaningless. To compare the “naked” TTX is generally an empty idea.
                  At the same time, if we evaluate the scope of application and their effect, then here, besides the Americans and the British, there’s no more talk about anyone.
                  From this point of view, you are obviously right and the USSR was not worth including in the number of "successful" creators of the strategic bomber.
                  1. Town Hall
                    Town Hall 8 October 2019 23: 54 New
                    +1
                    Of course. It’s just that aircraft models that could be called strategic were listed. In isolation from their real success. It seemed to me that since Pe-8 and even Italian were listed, then God himself ordered Griffin to be included in the list) hi
                    1. Undecim
                      Undecim 9 October 2019 00: 08 New
                      +3
                      Then the Japanese should be noted. They also started in the late 1930s, but gave the result only in 1944.

                      Nakajima G8N "Renzan"
                  2. bandabas
                    bandabas 9 October 2019 09: 34 New
                    +2
                    The problem is concentrated in the theater. Unlike our overseas “partners,” the emphasis was on front-line aviation.
                2. Alf
                  Alf 9 October 2019 21: 00 New
                  0
                  Quote: Town Hall
                  Flew on

                  XE-177 5570 km.
                  PE-8M-82 5800 km.
                  Quote: Town Hall
                  carried more bombs

                  Equally. Nearby, 4 tons, then only 2.
                  And about the war, so ask why the German pilots called it "lighter."
      2. Avior
        Avior 8 October 2019 23: 01 New
        0
        What did not stop him from using the Luftwaffe
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 8 October 2019 23: 12 New
          +3
          In the article, the question was about designing heavy bombers in front of WWII, and not about which aircraft was used as a bomber or was converted into one.
          The Focke-Wulf Fw 200 Condor was used a few times as a bomber.
          1. Avior
            Avior 9 October 2019 05: 28 New
            +2
            For convoy attacks, at least until 1944. Both as a scout and as a bomber.
            1. bubalik
              bubalik 9 October 2019 07: 28 New
              +2
              Avior (Sergey) Today, 06: 28
              ,,, not for the beauty of drawing
              1. Avior
                Avior 9 October 2019 08: 29 New
                +1
                Actually, I became interested in Condor just after I read MacLean’s book on polar convoys in the 90s.
  13. AAK
    AAK 8 October 2019 21: 20 New
    +1
    In the book of the defector Vovka Rezun "Day M" the hypothesis of a small number of built TB-7 / Pe-8 was put forward - as the choice of I.V. Stalin between the need to allocate industrial resources for the construction of either front-line or strategic (at that time) aviation, as a choice to prepare for an offensive or defensive future war ... I have never read a reasoned refutation of the Rezunov hypothesis ... the USSR until 1941 had tens of thousands of aircraft, to build at least from 500 to 1000 Pe-8 was quite capable, but thousands of heavy bombers did not build ...
    1. tesser
      tesser 8 October 2019 21: 56 New
      +8
      Quote: AAK
      Until now, I have not read a reasoned refutation of the Rezunov hypothesis anywhere

      There are a lot of antirezuns, and seriously discussing this nonsense - do not respect yourself. First, the USSR did not have any options to build as many Pe-8s so that at least 400 flew to Berlin. This is a little written in the article, but the main problems - the training of crews and technicians, escorts (during the day), radio navigation (at night) - are not even named. Pe-8 is not Su-2.

      On the other hand (western), not so much reached Berlin, but a little sense.

      In addition, the theme of Rezun is relevant only in the context of Soviet propaganda. A normal person, the idea that in the USSR there were also supporters of the Douet doctrine (as in any air force of that time) should not surprise.
      1. Amurets
        Amurets 9 October 2019 06: 02 New
        +4
        Quote: tesser
        On the other hand (western), not so much reached Berlin, but a little sense.

        Here is how A.S.Yakovlev described the raids on Berlin by British aviation in 1940: “I will never forget the impression that the dimming made upon us from the very beginning. Having crossed the border, we from our peaceful country, shining with the lights of hundreds of cities and villages, got into a kingdom of darkness and alarm. A train with tightly-curtained car windows rushed to Berlin past the darkened cities, villages and railway stations.
        In Berlin, from 8 - 9 p.m., all life froze waiting for a British air raid, theaters closed, streets became empty and quite often people hid in cellars under the sirens. And in the afternoon the city was calm. Children played on the paths strewn with sand and gravel, German housewives with baskets went for groceries. Having been in Germany at that time and having traveled all of it from north to south and from east to west, I could not notice the traces of war anywhere except for food cards and blackouts at night. Allied aviation scared more than it acted. "
        1. Alf
          Alf 9 October 2019 21: 24 New
          0
          Quote: Amurets
          Allied aviation scared more than it acted.

          This is when in Germany FACC solved the problem with toilet paper? And later, when Harris-bomber took up Germany seriously? By the way, all the obscene Suvorov cites one interesting fact - the meeting between Molotov and the Ribbentrop took place in the bunker for one simple reason - that night the British unloaded their strategists over Berlin.
          Molotov meeting at the train station in Berlin, November 1940

          The German Foreign Minister was also very annoyed that he had to conduct important political negotiations with his foreign counterpart in an environment where the conversation was interrupted by deafening bombing raids. Irritation grew because he had recently confidently proclaimed that the war had almost been won. During the negotiations of Molotov in Berlin, he did not fail to insert a hairpin to his German colleague over the British bombing that took place during official conversations.
    2. Avior
      Avior 8 October 2019 22: 54 New
      +1
      The Allies bombed Germany and harder, but it didn’t have such a melting effect as it looks at Suvorov
  14. bubalik
    bubalik 8 October 2019 21: 42 New
    +4
    On April 29 1943, the FAB-8 bomb on Koenigsberg was dropped from Pe-5000.
    ,,, how could they carry out the bombing in April if the FAB-5000 were adopted in May ?,, and for what purposes?

    Order of NPO 0340 from 06 on May 1943

    FAB - 5000 kg - a high-explosive bomb weighing 5000 kg.
    APUWM -
    2 pieces, AB-1 m - 6 pieces
    Apply for especially important purposes as directed by the Headquarters of the Supreme Commander. Minimum drop height - 3000 m.
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 8 October 2019 22: 19 New
      +7
      The FAB - 5000 bomb went into production in February 1943. The date of the order does not mean that the sample could not be used before.
      1. bubalik
        bubalik 8 October 2019 23: 11 New
        +3
        hi
        FAB - 5000 entered production in February 1943
        ,, something I'm completely confused request
        To the 30 anniversary of the Victory in the Great Patriotic War, the first publications on the history of the creation of the FAB-5000NG “super heavy explosive bomb” were published. However, the letters "NG", coinciding with the initials of the chief designer of KB-35 NKB Nison Gelperin, in the history of Russian bomber weapons used only in relation to high-explosive bombs in reinforced concrete buildings developed in this bureau. The given ratios of the mass of this ammunition in 5400 kg and the warhead in 3200 kg indicate that we are clearly talking about some other "five-ton".
        ,, so they were different?
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 8 October 2019 23: 21 New
          +2
          Yes, they were not different. During the Great Patriotic War there was one five-ton - FAB-5000NG.
          1. garri-lin
            garri-lin 9 October 2019 00: 43 New
            +1
            In which case? Steel or reinforced concrete?
    2. Town Hall
      Town Hall 8 October 2019 22: 20 New
      +3
      Quote: bubalik
      On April 29 1943, the FAB-8 bomb on Koenigsberg was dropped from Pe-5000.
      ,,, how could they carry out the bombing in April if the FAB-5000 were adopted in May ?,, and for what purposes?

      Order of NPO 0340 from 06 on May 1943

      FAB - 5000 kg - a high-explosive bomb weighing 5000 kg.
      APUWM -
      2 pieces, AB-1 m - 6 pieces
      Apply for especially important purposes as directed by the Headquarters of the Supreme Commander. Minimum drop height - 3000 m.

      The bomb drop on Koenigsberg was precisely a test dump before being put into service.
  15. stalkerwalker
    stalkerwalker 8 October 2019 23: 23 New
    +5
    Moreover, in order to somehow load the huge plant idle, the NKAP instructs the start of construction of the PS-84, the Soviet version of the Douglas DS-3. On the one hand, the experience later came in handy when copying the Tu-4, which the B-29, on the other, did not become a heavy bomber.

    The Red Army Air Force throughout the course of the Great Patriotic War did not have a normal "transporter" in sufficient quantities. Maybe it would be for the better ....
    Pe-8 did not become a massive long-range bomber for several reasons - this is an exorbitant cost and dubious performance characteristics. It was impossible to produce it in a large series due to the lack of “right” engines, and, most importantly, it was very low-tech. In addition, the outbreak of the war made its adjustments in the form of huge losses of military aircraft in the first stage. The front needed fighters, attack aircraft and front-line bombers in the first place. Many promising aircraft have remained promising, because the industry was not able to file the required number of aircraft engines. This also applied to the Tu-2, which required Solovyov’s design engines, and air-cooled engines not pre-mass-produced to the La-5 / 7 series. As a result, both the Yak and La5 / 7 were put checked and forced old samples. The front needed fighter jets yesterday. And there was no time for frills. And the "underperformance" was quite successfully replaced by IL-4 in Long-Range Aviation.
    The culture of production at aircraft factories also did not shine. The Moscow factory, which produced the MiG series, was also considered one of the best. But the MiG-1 / 3 itself turned out to be a "titmouse in the sky" with dubious performance characteristics, and how many complaints and complaints were about the refusal of weapons both in the pre-war months and in the early days of the war, when the plane in the air turned out to be such a "dove of peace." No wonder the MiGs were pulled into the Moscow air defense system - it was easier to bring technology to mind, since the manufacturer was in the capital.
    1. Alf
      Alf 9 October 2019 21: 27 New
      0
      Quote: stalkerwalker
      This also applied to the Tu-2, which required Solovyov’s engines,

      And I thought that Mikulina.
      1. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker 9 October 2019 22: 14 New
        0
        Data taken from Yakovlev’s book "Aircraft Designer Notes".
        There, the aircraft designer gives an example when a Tu-2 flight model with Solovyov engines worked as a leader on the haul of aircraft from Alaska to Siberia, developing a speed of almost 600 km / h (without bomb load).
        I read a book about 45 years ago. I can confuse ....
  16. The comment was deleted.
  17. Pavel57
    Pavel57 9 October 2019 00: 03 New
    0
    Mentioned 82 plant as a manufacturer of diesel engines. But he was not motor.
    1. PilotS37
      PilotS37 9 October 2019 16: 52 New
      0
      Quote: Pavel57
      Mentioned 82 plant as a manufacturer of diesel engines. But he was not motor.


      Here [media = http: //engine.aviaport.ru/issues/22/page24.html] it says that there were two 82 plants at different times.
  18. Amurets
    Amurets 9 October 2019 00: 19 New
    +4
    Yes, there may have been some prerequisites and developments from Sikorsky and Lebedev, but this is so ... "Ilya Muromets" and "Svyatogor" remained in the unimaginably distant past, in the Russian Empire, and other people began to create a new country’s aviation in other circumstances.
    The aircraft "Svyatogor" was designed by V. A. Slesarev. Lebedev himself did not design aircraft. In addition to repairs, the Lebedev plant was engaged in the production of copies of various foreign aircraft. Copies of the English "Sopvich" - "Tabloid" and "One and a half" - were released only in a few copies. At the same time, Lebedev did not hesitate to give the “clones" new names. So, "Tabloid" had the factory designation "Swan VII."
    http://авиару.рф/aviamuseum/aviatsiya/russkij-imperatorskij-voenno-vozdushnyj-flot/
  19. Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 9 October 2019 11: 10 New
    +2
    Given the small number of Pe-8 remaining in service, the command came to the conclusion that pilots with such experience needed to be saved, and the tasks that the Pe-8 crews solved were quite capable of fulfilling the pilots of ordinary bomber regiments flying in the afternoon. During the day, superiority in the sky was already behind Soviet aircraft.

    Everything would be good in this hypothesis, if not for the facts:
    On June 21, 1944, at the factory No. 22, representatives of 45 air divisions adopted the last combat Pe-8 (plant number 42512). But in the regiments, the development of B-25 modifications D-30, D-35, J was already in full swing. Since 1944, they began to receive not only the 362nd, but also the 890th DBAP. Those pilots who mastered the “Mitchells” found themselves in a better position compared to fellow soldiers who “did not get” the Lend-Lease technique: the break in flights for the latter sometimes exceeded six months. By the end of the war, from November 1944, only the 25th Guards Regiment made flights to the Pe-8 - exclusively for training, to maintain the flight crew’s qualifications that allowed them to carry out combat missions as part of the ADD. Almost all Pe-8s in 890 DBAPs were chained to the ground due to various faults.

    That is, part of the crews from the Pe-8 continued combat work, reseeding on the B-25. And those remaining on the Pe-8 - lost their qualifications due to the inability to regularly fly into the air.
    And among the technical malfunctions on the Pe-8 was, for example, the destruction of the side member pipes:
    Detailed studies of destroyed parts from ZOHGSA, carried out by Doctor of Technical Sciences N.I. Marin, they showed that this high-strength steel, working at high stresses, is prone to fatigue failure and has a very low resource when exposed to such loads. I had to reduce the design voltage in the cross-section of the side members. For reinforcement, additional steel elements with a rather complicated system of fastening them to the spar nodes were passed inside the pipes. The plant manufactured the required reinforcing elements and a special tool, and the factory team, together with the technical staff of the 25th regiment, carried out the necessary improvements to the Pe-8 combatant.
    All these problems led to the fact that at the end of the war, Pe-8s mostly stood on the ground for revisions. Since November 25, crews on the Pe-1944 only made training flights in the 8th regiment in order to maintain the qualifications of the flight crew.
    In the 890th regiment, practically all the cars did not fly, with the exception of the TB-7 beard No. 385 of the Doubler. By May 1945, 32 Pe-8 aircraft were in the “ground” formation.

    Source: Vladimir Ratkin. Pe-8. The test of war. + comments. airpages.ru
    1. tesser
      tesser 9 October 2019 13: 07 New
      0
      Quote: Alexey RA
      That is, part of the crews from the Pe-8 continued combat work, reseeding on the B-25

      It is interesting, in particular, that the Pe-8 was replaced not by a "fortress", but by an average bomber by American standards. Which, as it were, makes us look at this "strategist" in a slightly different way.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 9 October 2019 13: 46 New
        +2
        Quote: tesser
        It is interesting, in particular, that the Pe-8 was replaced not by a "fortress", but by an average bomber by American standards. Which, as it were, makes us look at this "strategist" in a slightly different way.

        Here, rather, the principle mayo sho mayo - because we didn’t receive four-engine on LL. So I had to transfer the crews to the “farthest” of the received. Fortunately, by that time the DBA had already in fact lost the status of fully “distant” - bomber versions of the Li-2 were massively supplied to its arsenal. Against their background and against the background of IL-4, the American B-25 was truly a "fortress." smile
        By the way, there were “fortresses” in the 45th division — the restored V-17 and V-24 were used to train the crews.
        1. tesser
          tesser 9 October 2019 14: 48 New
          0
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Here, rather, the principle mayo sho mayo

          IMHO, there is something to rejoice about. And the large strategic aviation program, given the situation with the frontline, could only become another large fleet, and another butcher Harris-Golovanov did not happen, fortunately.
  20. Sapsan136
    Sapsan136 9 October 2019 12: 46 New
    0
    Many succeeded, only the degree was different and the doctrine of using heavy bombers too .. You can recall the French four-engine bombers bombing Berlin, but there were less than a dozen .... The Germans also had their four-engine Condor, which they turned into a naval strategist, who was the eyes of the Doenitz submarines ... There were Italian bomb carriers Piaggio ... And with the engines there, too, everything was not going smoothly ...
  21. PilotS37
    PilotS37 9 October 2019 15: 26 New
    0
    Strange, but for some reason there were no executions and landings. To the great chagrin of a certain caste of writers.

    The guilty party was appointed Mikhail Kaganovich, the head of the NKAP, the elder brother of Lazar Kaganovich.


    Once behind the scenes, the author was left with the fact that just at the time of the creation of TB-7, both Tupolev and Pyatlyakov were seated (not for TB-7, of course). Moreover, in the “Tupolev Sharashka” Petlyakov was loaded with the theme “One Hundred” (future Pe-2), and Tupolev (personally) with “103” (which eventually degenerated into Tu-2).
    But Myasishchev who was sitting with them was “thrown” onto a new “long-range, high-altitude, heavy ...” (DVB-102).
    "103", by the way, according to Kerber, also initially the leadership of the NKVD was thought of as "distant and high-altitude", and even "dive". But in the end, a pretty decent front-line dive bomber came out. True, while he was getting to the front, the front had almost reached Germany ...
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 9 October 2019 15: 56 New
      0
      Quote: PilotS37
      "103", by the way, according to Kerber, also initially the leadership of the NKVD was thought of as "distant and high-altitude", and even "dive".

      And we know where this TK is likely to grow legs from. smile Just recently there was an article about the Vulture, which mentioned the TK of backlash on a long diving bomber. So the leadership of the NKVD simply decided that since the Germans had betrayed this, then it was fundamentally possible.

      By the way, it is really possible to dive on a four-engine - the 617th RAF squadron tried it in practice (at night!), When they had a problem with the accuracy of the "stacking" of markers by target aircraft.
      The next night they returned to Pas de Calais. Munro fired lighting rockets. Martin, spitting on everything and all sorts of orders, coolly dived, aiming the plane at the "ski". He found the night dive on a four-engined bomber a bit of a thrill, but he dropped the markers and emerged from the peak at 400 feet.

      © Brickhill P., Barker R. Ship Slayers. Flood Germany!
      1. PilotS37
        PilotS37 9 October 2019 16: 59 New
        0
        Quote: Alexey RA
        By the way, it is really possible to dive on a four-engine

        “Maybe” is ONE, and to create a full-fledged aircraft with such a set of characteristics is quite another.
        When attacking a target, the dive design undergoes loads several times greater than that of the "strategist". To create a “strategist” with a design of increased strength means to draw down its range, ceiling, “payload” ...
      2. Alf
        Alf 9 October 2019 21: 30 New
        0
        Quote: Alexey RA
        four-engine dive is really possible

        It depends on what you call diving, a reduction at an angle of 15-20 degrees is one thing, and at 70-80 it’s quite another. The Yu-88 was also officially considered a dive player, only he couldn’t go down more than 45 degrees.
  22. PilotS37
    PilotS37 9 October 2019 15: 35 New
    0
    However, after the change of leadership of the NKAP, work on it was resumed under the leadership of deputy commissar of Alexander Yakovlev and production began again under the new designation M-40.


    Whoops!
    And this one has to do with it ?! !!
    The M-40 engine was developed V.M. Yakovlev, deputy of Charomsky (the latter was imprisoned as well as Tupolev with Petlyakov and Myasischev ([media = https: //ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C-40_ (% D0% B4% D0% B2% D0% B8% D0% B3% D0% B0% D1% 82% D0% B5% D0% BB% D1% 8C)])).
  23. PilotS37
    PilotS37 9 October 2019 15: 53 New
    0
    This flight [of Molotov to the USA and back] greatly lifted the spirit that in Tupolev Design Bureauthat at the factory number 124.


    Is the author sure that in May 1942 the Pe-8 was still in the area of ​​responsibility of the Tupolev Design Bureau? Where does this information come from?
    Before his death, TB-7 was occupied precisely by V.M. Petlyakov. And after that the design bureau passed to V.M. Myasishchev.
  24. PilotS37
    PilotS37 9 October 2019 15: 59 New
    0
    Yes, immediately after the war, the Tu-4 that went into service is nothing but the B-29, which was simply copied. But then we have gone further and still are exclusively our achievements. So, starting with Ilya Muromets, through Pe-8 and up to Tu-160 this development of long-range aviation is quite normal for itself.


    Whoops!
    The author, apparently, is not aware that the Tu-160 was created under the strong influence of the American B-1B ...
    1. Pavel57
      Pavel57 9 October 2019 16: 57 New
      0
      Rather, under the influence of B-1A and Myasischevsky M-18.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. bnm.99
        bnm.99 9 October 2019 19: 44 New
        0
        Rather, the T-4MS P.O. Sukhoi
    2. bk316
      bk316 11 November 2019 19: 59 New
      +1
      The author, apparently, is not aware that the Tu-160 was created under the strong influence of the American B-1B ...

      I don’t know as an author, but in reality the Tu-160 CANNOT BE CREATED UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF B-1B. Since the construction of the first Tu-160 began in 1977 and the B-1B was made in 1980.

      And in terms of performance characteristics and tactics of use, the Tu-160 is very different from the B-1B, rather similar to the B-1A, which never went into series.
  25. kimlykvp
    kimlykvp 9 October 2019 18: 07 New
    +2
    Unfortunately, by the beginning of the design of the Pe-8, our designers were not able to calculate the fuselages of the "monocoque" type as in foreign aircraft. Therefore, the Pe-8 turned out to be so heavy compared to the B-17, in addition there were problems with the engines. The Wright-17 was equipped with the Wright Cyclones familiar to all of us, we have the M-62, which are still being plowed on the An-2. And it turned out to be a successful aircraft with excellent performance characteristics which along with the B-24 pulled out the whole war. In total, the United States built these aircraft more than 30 thousand. The British and Lancaster had the same problems, but they lifted 000 tons calmly. Only in the process of copying the B-9 aircraft did we learn to work correctly with duralumin. Shavrov wrote well about the problems of the Pe-29 in the book “The History of Aircraft Design in the USSR”. Endel Karlovich Poussin wrote well about Molotov’s flight to London in his memoirs.
    1. Alf
      Alf 9 October 2019 21: 32 New
      0
      Quote: kimlykvp
      we have M-62,

      On the PE-8? Cool..
  26. eagle owl
    eagle owl 10 October 2019 11: 54 New
    +1
    Well, unlike them, we had something to build.

    That's it. Of course, I would like to have everything in service, more, and without bread. Yes, but we are not separated from the enemy by a strait, like Great Britain, or by the ocean, like the USA! Throw all our resources for the construction of heavy bombers. Would it help a lot? Did heavy bombers not fly to bomb Finns in the Soviet-Finnish? And what is the result besides the song "Njet, Molotoff"? Again, you can recall the British, with developed aircraft manufacturing - and a considerable number of heavy bombers - who also had to fly all night during the war, because the DBL was an easy target for the Luftwaffe during their day, and their night bombardments “against whom God sends” something too They didn’t manage to turn the tide of the war, it was the USA that managed to demolish the cities in one raid - but the USA could not afford to actually build front-line aircraft, but only Fortresses and Super Fortresses ... But where would the Union be without IL-2 and Pe-2 with the Tu-2 ...
    1. tesser
      tesser 10 October 2019 12: 24 New
      0
      Quote: Uhu
      and their nightly bombardment “against whom God sends” something they also failed to reverse the course of the war,

      There were problems with night bombing, but it must be admitted that by the end of the war the British had very good radio navigation over Europe. True, it is still not good enough to concentrate on industrial facilities.
      Quote: Uhu
      could afford not to actually build front-line aviation

      You are very mistaken. The 8th Air Force of Spaats is one of the 16 air armies of the US Air Force. Of course, the most powerful, but not the only one. Even the American ground attack aircraft (who heard about it at all?) In the person of the A-26 from the fall of the 44th used up 18 thousand tons of ammunition in Europe, which corresponds to 45-90 thousand sorties of the IL-2 (that is, comparable to all of them work in the same period).
      1. eagle owl
        eagle owl 10 October 2019 12: 39 New
        0
        Do not make me laugh. There were only about 1000 units built for invectors; the first combat use was in 1944, for heading analysis! Are you really going to compare the use of the Invaders, for example, with how the Il-s gave the thrush to German tanks using the PTAB on the Kursk Bulge?
        1. tesser
          tesser 10 October 2019 14: 12 New
          -1
          Quote: Uhu
          There were only about 1000 units built for invectors; the first combat use was in 1944, for heading analysis!

          Ugums. But you have "not actually built", no? Only 2 thousand A-26s are more in combat load weight than all serviceable IL-2 / IL-10 European fronts as of May 45th, EMNIP.
          Quote: Uhu
          how did the Il-s give a thrush to German tanks on the Kursk Bulge using PTAB?

          On the Kursk Bulge and in all other places, the IL-2 was completely useless against tanks in battle. Like similar aircraft in the West.
  27. smaug78
    smaug78 10 October 2019 12: 26 New
    0
    The fact that we were not able to build Pe-8s in thousands, like the British and Americans ... Well, unlike them, we had something to build. We needed tanks, guns, trucks, fighters, rifles and machine guns .. Strange, "tanks, guns, trucks, fighters, rifles and machine guns" did the British and Americans do? A good article, but the ending spoils everything ...
  28. DimerVladimer
    DimerVladimer 10 October 2019 14: 49 New
    0
    The Pe-8 could become a good bomber, if it were not for the weakness of the engine-building base - we could not build turbocompressors in our country, as the Americans did.
    Therefore, the fifth engine in the fuselage was boosted for boosting - and this is an additional 700 kg and additional fuel consumption, while the TKR uses the gratuitous energy of exhaust gases. Then they refused the fifth engine - an ordinary car in this version and not very reliable.
    In general, the Pe-8 did not play any role during the war years.
    3-4 flights were made per month and 1-2 aircraft were lost, the aircraft factory built an average of 1,4-1,66 Pe-8 bomber per month (17 units 1941, 20 units 1942, 18 units 1943, 18 pcs in 1944). At the same time, 6-20 cars in total could be operational - what a tangible damage.
    The accuracy of night bombing is poor
    If the British Air Force illuminated targets with "chandeliers" of lighting missiles, for which the best navigational crews stood out, then the Pe-8 crews were determined by dead reckoning or by reference points (which is difficult at night) and threw bombs as it turned out.
  29. Ursus
    Ursus 11 October 2019 13: 51 New
    -1
    TS, how cute you have discounted the hard work of your ancestors:
    Then came the sequel, regarding the Americans and the British. Unfortunately, our TB-7 / Pe-8 was released in such a modest series that it’s not worth talking about any comparison with the British and Americans. 97 aircraft, including two prototypes, are very few. 12 731 “Flying Fortress” is, you know, quantity. 1 to 131.


    97 unique aircraft that are not afraid of any air defense systems (at 10 km altitude the 5th “useless” engine turned on and supplied air to the cabin and to all 4 engines) and there are no competitors in the air (and no one in the world there are no more analogues) - is it not enough? Lovely logic! How much is needed? Hundreds of thousands?

    I did not see the figure defining the payload (bomb). Agree, TS, for a bomber - this is an extremely important indicator! Bomb load 4 tons. 97 aircraft in one take-off can drop almost half a ton. Without much accuracy, of course. Where does she come from, 10km high? But any enemy capital will be enough to feel their insecurity. If necessary, repeat departures until the proper result is obtained! Losses are minimal, airfields far from borders. At the height - no danger.

    A unique airplane for its time! The result of the labor feat of millions of our fellow citizens. You need to be proud of it!
    1. mikle1999
      mikle1999 13 October 2019 19: 08 New
      0
      97 is the total number released. At no time could more than a dozen rise into the air.
    2. mikle1999
      mikle1999 13 October 2019 19: 37 New
      0
      There was no 10 km there except in TK and maybe in a couple of pilot flights. There, the Molotov pilot describes how hard the plane is gaining altitude - and this is when approaching Moscow (that is, with empty tanks) and without a bomb load. And probably it was the best instance of the available.
      1. Town Hall
        Town Hall 13 October 2019 19: 52 New
        0
        Quote: mikle1999
        There was no 10 km there except in TK and maybe in a pair of pilot flights

        7.000 flew
        4.000 kg were also only in TK

        The list of 81-th addd ships that took off for a combat mission
        10 August 1941 [11]

        number
        p / p
        Surname of the crew commander Bomb load Takeoff Time Note
        Airplanes TB-7
        1. Kurban A.A. FAB-500 - 4 20.50 Bombed the target. Sat down forced. The plane is broken.
        2. Peregudov A.A. FAB-100 - 20
        ZAB-50 - 16
        20.52 Returned due to engine failure
        3. Tyagunin A.N. FAB-250 - 12 21.03/4 Shot down for and fighters of the Baltic Fleet. 1 people were killed, XNUMX - went missing.
        4. Vodopyanov M.V.
        FAB-250 - 9
        RRAB-3 - 1
        (116 ZAB-2,5)


        21.05 Bombed the target. Sat down forced. The plane is broken.
        5. Prominent (Bidny) V.D. FAB-100 - 30 21.50 Bombed Lauenburg. Sat down forced. The plane is intact.
        6. Egorov K.P.
        FAB-1000 - 2
        FAB-100 - 8


        21.56 Crash due to engine failure.
        7. Ugryumov M.M.
        FAB-250 - 8
        RRAB-3 - 2
        (232 ZAB-2,5)


        21.58 Bombed the target. Sat down forced. The plane and crew are unharmed (with the exception of one dead military technician).
        8. Panfilov A.I.
        FAB-250 - 8
        ZAB-50 - 16


        22.00 I bombed the target. He did not return from the assignment.
        9. Native M.V. FAB-100-20
        ? RRAB-3 - 2
        (232 ZAB-2,5)
        Did not fly out due to engine failures.

        Moreover, the flight is by no means at the maximum range. From Leningrad to Berlin, 1300 km
        1. mikle1999
          mikle1999 13 October 2019 20: 16 New
          0
          Kamikaze ((.
          Moreover, no evidence of that bombing was found in the German archives - they did not notice it.
  30. xomaNN
    xomaNN 12 October 2019 14: 34 New
    +1
    I vividly imagine what it was like for engineers and workers at assembly aircraft factories to master such a new plane! Nowadays, in the 80s, we, engineers with diplomas of often leading universities of the country and masters and workers with several decades of experience, mastered new models of rocket technology. Every day brought new and new questions in technology, assembly, commissioning, etc.

    So bow to the factory workers of those times. And those times were HARD! Any mistake in work threatened not with deprimination, but with a change of workplace and getting used to Siberian frosts.
  31. Reklastik
    Reklastik 12 October 2019 20: 37 New
    0
    The topic is not disclosed. Why did the concept of such an aircraft appear in the USSR? What was better than the IL-4, which was produced in a much larger series?
  32. serg2108
    serg2108 13 October 2019 15: 47 New
    -1
    wonderful article to the author thanks!
  33. tolancop
    tolancop 17 October 2019 16: 41 New
    0
    "... 97 aircraft, including two prototypes, are very few .."
    Since childhood, a digital sign of the number of issued PE-8s has settled in my head - 78 pcs.
    I ran through the tyrnet and did not add clarity - I met, among other things, the mention of 93 aircraft released ....
    To compare the PE-8 with the devices of the Americans and the British, I think, is not entirely correct. There is no doubt that our design bureaus and industry have worked to the limit. It turned out what happened. I believe that if there were “allies” (let’s say such a fantastic opportunity), in our conditions they would have been able to do much less .... As for the modest circulation, I think that it’s also not so simple .... The PE-8 is a complex device and expensive both in production and in operation. T.ch. it may well be that the heels of the Pe-2s were more useful than the single PE-8s, we, unlike the "allies", had enough things at the front and in the rear. The usual task is to optimally distribute limited funds.