Military Review

Combat aircraft. Messerschmitts Me-210 and Me-410. Beyond Understanding

63
This time we will talk about two planes at once. Yes, in principle, these are different machines, but still the second was creative and fruitful work on the mistakes of the first.




And the first ... The first was generally one flying mistake, if we talk about Me-210 seriously.

357 produced (320 were not completed) copies of the aircraft did not play a special role in the war, the Me-210 was not a superweapon, and I would not call it a bunch of new products. But without 210, there would be no Me-410, which we will mainly talk about.

Combat aircraft. Messerschmitts Me-210 and Me-410. Beyond Understanding


In general, история This aircraft (well, aircraft) is quite remarkable, since it provides a very clear picture of what happened in the Third Reich during the Second World War.

How the wings of the twin-engine fighter’s problem grew, we already know. From Bf-110, which at the beginning of the war could at best protect itself. And even then, not always. About how to be a real “Destroyer" or "Destroyer" (Zerstörer translates something like this), the discussion in 1941 was not discussed.

It is clear that a replacement would have to be constructed. And Willy Messerschmitt accepted the challenge, but ...

Yes, let's put it this way: the desire to become a leading supplier of aircraft for the Luftwaffe was a little stronger than what the Luftwaffe wanted. And it wanted dominance in the air. In general, somehow it did not grow together and ended in the collapse of the Luftwaffe.

It is clear that Mr. Messerschmitt was not just cool in those years, he calmly furnished his competitors from Focke-Wulf, Heinkel, Dornier and Arado in the backstage scams. There is no Junkers on the list, but the Junkers were not involved in fighters, and the alterations of Ju-88 in the night light did not count.

And 1941 year shows that something needs to be done with crowds of English and American (especially) bombers! Moreover, everyone understands that they must be shot down! And if the war with the British night raids was more or less managed to be solved with the help of the night fighters of Kammhuber, then in the afternoon ...

In the afternoon I needed a high-rise, powerful arms and a fast-speed aircraft with a large radius of action and / or the ability to barrage for a long time, waiting for the enemy to approach.

In general, not Bf.109 or Bf.110. And in such conditions, work began on the Me-210. A heavy attacking twin-engine fighter capable of fighting American and British bombers.



And in the bowels of the company Me-210 was born. He can be safely called a miscarriage of the German aviation industry, and there will be no exaggeration. But there was a need for an airplane, and other companies did not have something intelligible. Problem…

But victory in the behind-the-scenes battles is not yet victory in the skies of Germany. And Me-210 became an illustration of this statement, especially since the plane could not even get on the battlefield.

Looking ahead, I will simply list the aircraft models that were being developed at the same time as the Me-210. The list, by the way, is impressive. Non-219, Ar-240, Hs-129, Bf-162, Hs-127, Fw-187 and Ta-154. And right away, Non-219 and Ta-154, which went into the series, but not when it would bring the maximum benefit to the Luftwaffe, immediately struck the eye.

Our hero, starting from the first flight in 1939, showed his convention as an airplane. That is, it was unstable in both horizontal and vertical planes. And all further work on the Me-210 was a struggle to make this miracle fly at least somehow. At the finalization stage, only the tail was changed three times.

Did not help. Aircraft still remained unstable in the air. Test pilots wrote reports that spoke of jerking in flight, turbulent turbulences arose in the tail section, and ailerons fluttered.

But apparently, while the pilots fought with a plane that stubbornly did not want to fly, Willy Messerschmitt won his next battle in the cabinets. And - lo and behold! - Me-210 was recommended for mass production! True, provided that the noted deficiencies are removed. The shortcomings, I must say right away, have not been eliminated, but the aircraft began to be assembled at the end of the 1940 year.



True, both started and finished. When it turned out that Me-210 is still as sad as in 1939. At the beginning of the 1942 year, two aircraft were redesigned, received the designation Me-310. However, these aircraft were unsuccessful. Finally, it was decided to abandon the release of Me-210, and Me-310, and proceed with the release of Me-410.

The most interesting thing is that Me-210 / 310 won from the failure of Messerschmitt ... Messerschmitt!

The failure of Me-210 / 310 primarily affected the release of Bf-110. They generally wanted to remove it from the release back in 1941, as soon as the 210 th flies normally. But in the end, Bf-110 released the whole war, and the last cars left the shops in March 1945 of the year.



It is clear that this was a slightly different 110, but under the conditions of the appearance of the Mustangs and Thunderbolts among the allies, he had nothing to catch (except for the Browning bullets).

It was originally planned to stop its production back in the 1941 year, but as a result, the aircraft lasted on the assembly line until March 1945 of the year!

But in 1942, everything sadly ended and a completely different story began.

At the end of the story of Me-210, it is worth noting that the Germans themselves did not rush for the helm of this imperfection, and therefore the planes were very quickly dismantled by the Hungarians who launched the release of Me-210 at their Danube plant.



When the Allies began to bomb Hungary, Me-210 were involved as air defense aircraft. And while American bombers flew under the cover of the P-38, things were going more or less normal. When the P-38 was replaced by the same P-51, everything ended very sadly for the Hungarian pilots.

A fair amount (159) of Me-210 Hungarian assembly fell on the Eastern Front. They didn’t win much victories there, they didn’t sound in our reports either, but, in principle, at that time ours didn’t care who to bring down.

On this, the story of the Me-210 actually ended and the story of another aircraft began.

In April 1942, it was officially announced the cessation of the production of Me-210 in German factories. The damage to Messsserschmitt was decent, that financial, that reputational. However, the matter for the Germans was complicated by the fact that only 200 Me-210 were at the factories at the assembly lines, 370 machines were at the preliminary stages of construction, and machine kits for assembly were also prepared at 800 units. And something had to be done with this.

Naturally, in order to get out of the situation, Messerschmitt made every effort to get out of this situation. So there was Me-410 Hornisse / "Hornet".



The unification with the Me-210 was huge, but in fact the new aircraft was not the same Me-210. Given how sad the 210 was, the decision was made to name the car a different name. An almost new aircraft was called the almost new name Me-410.

Structurally, the Me-410 did not differ much from its predecessor, which is quite natural, since in fact something had to be done with a thousand potential aircraft. The main thing - in the design of the Me-410 it turned out to eliminate the main critical shortcomings of the Me-210, namely to stabilize the machine in flight.

It cannot be said that the output was a perfect aircraft, but it turned out that we didn’t send ready-made kits for assembling aircraft to the landfill, and give the Luftwaffe some kind of, but heavy fighter. And thus, nine months after the cessation of work on Me-210, Me-410 appeared.



The work was done well. The shape of the wing radically changed, which became narrower and with a reduced bevel, Hadley-Page slats appeared. Changed and strengthened the ailerons, lengthened the fuselage. The main thing is that the changes helped and the plane began to fly as it was generally accepted.

In January 1943, the Luftwaffe received the first five Me-410 aircraft.



It was not just a heavy fighter, in fact it was a fighter-bomber. And produced in various versions. The main part of the armament was standard: two 20-mm MG 151 / 20 guns and two 7,92-mm MG 17 machine guns in the nose of the fuselage, and two 13-mm MG 131 machine guns mounted in FDL or FDSL rotating remote side turrets. Up to 1000 kg of bombs could be suspended on the internal suspension: 1 x 1000-kg or 2 x 500-kg or 8 x 50-kg bombs, but in general 500 kg were considered normal bomb load, the rest went as a reloading option.

The Me-410 bomber variant also had external bomb racks for four 50 kg bombs and a Stuvi 5B bomber sight.

Special aircraft such as the Me-410A-1 / U1 reconnaissance aircraft were also produced, in which the Rb 20 / 30, 50 / 30 or 75 / 30 or Me-410A-1 / U2 camera was mounted on a bomb, which was mounted on a heavy bomb with two more MG 151 / 20 cannons with an 250 round of ammunition. The result was a very impressive airborne volley.

For all time, German industry built 1160 Me-410 aircraft, plus about 200 it was redone from Me-210.



However, the expected success did not work. Yes, the factories began to build Me-410 at a very impressive pace, but alas, the number of aircraft was constantly reduced.

If Me-410 caught up and attacked the bombers, everything was pretty sad for the latter. But the main problem of the Me-410 was the Mustangs, whose pilots were rapidly reducing the number of heavy fighters, which in fact could not oppose the P-51.



As an example, the battles involving Me-410 on March 16, 1944, when the combined detachment Bf-110 and Me-410 of about 220 vehicles attacked a compound of American bombers. This armada had about 500 V-17 and 2000 V-24. The goal of such a huge number of bombers was aviation plants. The Germans shot down 18 bombers without loss. True, the Americans' cover fighters have already left due to insufficient radius of action.

In April 1944, in the so-called battle of Stettin, Americans lost 52 B-17, 12 B-24 and 16 P-38. German casualties amounted to 57 aircraft.



It seems to be almost equally divided, but the weight and cost of the B-17 and Me-410 are difficult to compare.

But when the allies landed in France and began to use airfields on French soil, then everything for Me-410 was over. More precisely, the P-51 and P-47 very quickly completed the German heavy fighters.

In general, we can confidently say that Messerschmitt did not succeed in the true “Destroyers”. Neither Bf.110, nor Me-210, nor Me-410 have become so.

There was one more page from, in general, not rich in events of life of a twin-engine engine. The most interesting, in my opinion.

One Me-410B-2 / U4 with a VK.5 cannon (50-mm) was captured by our troops and transferred to the appropriate institutes for study in accordance with the instructions.



Soviet specialists carefully studied and circled the Hornet in Ramenskoye and these are the conclusions that were drawn.



The test program consisted of 23 flights with a total duration of 14 hours 25 minutes, was performed by test pilot Major I.P. Piskunov, and the technical part was evaluated by Lieutenant Colonel V. Ya. Magon.

According to the test results, the aircraft was rated rather positively. A rather large document was drafted, called the Aircraft Testing Act. I will cite excerpts from this document, because our testers dismantled the aircraft “by the bones” in all respects.

“The general ease of piloting and good maneuverability of the fighter are noted.

The cockpit is cramped and sitting in it is inconvenient. The location of the levers and sectors for controlling the aircraft and engines, the location of the propeller-motor control devices and navigation devices are convenient.

The operation of the aircraft is especially facilitated by the presence of a supercharger speed shifter, an automatic machine that controls the temperature of the oil, and combined propeller and gas control.

The taxiing airplane is stable and well-controlled both with brakes and motors, but when using the brakes the feet get tired, because when braking you have to put in a lot of effort.

At climb, the aircraft is stable and well-controlled (nevertheless, they brought to mind the Me-210! - Approx. Aut.).

In horizontal flight, the aircraft allows flying with freed control over the entire speed range, the loads that occur on the rudders are easily removed with trimmers. The aircraft has a sufficient margin of track and lateral stability, the margin of longitudinal stability is less

Calculation and production of planting is not particularly difficult. There are enough rudders to land at three points, but the loads on the elevator at this moment are large. During the run, the aircraft is stable; it does not have a tendency to bonding when using the brakes.

At bends with a roll of 65-70 degrees (Vnp = 380 km / h), the aircraft is stable, the loads on the steering wheels are normal. On bends with a roll of 70 degrees (Vnp = 390-400 km / h) with a slight tug of the handle, a rapid decrease in the load on the rudders is created, and the aircraft tries to get out of the bend. The controllability and stability of the aircraft when performing a combat turn is good.

If one of the engines fails, it is easy to keep the plane with the rudders in a horizontal flight line. Loads from the rudder are removed completely with trimmers.

At altitudes from H = 6000 meters and below with normal flight weight, a long flight is possible with one engine running and a screw on an idle engine in a vane position at speeds from Vnp = 280 km / h to the maximum possible. In a long horizontal flight at the rated power mode, the temperatures of the coolant and oil do not go beyond the permissible values. In flight with one engine, it is possible to make turns both towards the running and towards the idle motor with a roll to 30 degrees.

Conclusions: according to the piloting technique, the captured Me-410В-2 aircraft is simpler than the production Pe-2 aircraft and is almost identical to the Tu-2 aircraft. In terms of controllability and maneuverability, the Me-410В-2 aircraft surpasses serial domestic bombers. ”


In place of the arrow, the Me-410 made several test flights by test navigator Senior Lieutenant Poptsov, who made the following conclusions about the capabilities of defensive armament of the aircraft:

“The view from the rear cockpit provides a good view of the top of the rear hemisphere.

The overview of the lower hemisphere is insufficient, since the fuselage, stabilizer and planes that give large dead cones interfere with it.

The dimensions of the cockpit of the radio operator-gunner, the placement and volume of equipment, the placement of machine-gun mounts ensure that the gunner-radio operator performs all the tasks that lie on him. Orientation from the rear cab is not possible. ”


The armament of the aircraft in flight was not checked, all cannon and machine gun fire was carried out on the ground, in dashes. The main weapon, the 50-mm VK.5 cannon, was rightly considered by Soviet specialists to be unsuccessful and ineffective in comparison with similar domestic models:

"VK 5 caliber gun 50 mm, being tank a gun adapted for installation on an airplane is of no interest, with the exception of the automatic electro-pneumatic reloading system.

At a rate of fire at 40 rds / min and an initial speed of approximately 500 m / s, the gun has weight along with automatic reload units of 592 kg, while the domestic aviation gun NS-45 of caliber 45 mm at a rate of fire of 270 rds / min and initial speed 795 m / s has a weight of 3,5 times less, that is, 168 kg.

The rate of fire in the 40 rds / min practically provides for conducting targeted fire with only single shots. Efficiency of high-explosive fragmentation shells of the VK 5 cannon under action on aircraft structures (the fuselage of the Boston aircraft), revealed by test shots, slightly exceeds the effectiveness of the action of the NS-45 cannon. "


The rear installation with the electromechanical drive of two MG 131 machine guns of the 13 mm caliber was much more interesting, because our serial aircraft did not have similar weapons with remote control. It was recommended that such a system be developed.



The work of the VMG was very impressive. Most of all, the testers liked the Kommandogerät integrated control panel. It allowed the pilot to change the basic parameters of the engine with one lever: revolutions, boost, fuel supply, speed of the supercharger impeller with a change in the pitch angles of the propeller blades and the ignition timing.

Naturally, the combat capabilities of the aircraft were also studied, moreover, not in theory. Me-410 training battles with the Tu-2 bomber, Yak-3 and La-7 fighters were conducted at the Air Force Research Institute.

Test Pilot Major Antipov:

“The Yak-3 plane easily catches up and attacks Me-410 at altitudes of 1000-1500 meters and in all flight modes. The attack was most easily carried out, with the advantage in height, from the rear hemisphere on the side. But in this case, the Me-410 shooter sees the attacking fighter well and can successfully conduct targeted fire

When attacking from behind and from below, you can imperceptibly approach the Me-410 at a distance of aimed fire, since the downward view of the shooter is poor. During the battle, it was possible several times to successfully attack Me-410 from below and remain unnoticed by the shooter.

During the battle, the Yak-3 retained an advantage in height and speed.

The way out of all attacks was made, as a rule, up with a small turn to the side - so as not to lose sight of Me-410 and not to fall under its defensive fire.

In free air combat with a single Me-410 aircraft at altitudes of 2000-4000 m, the Yak-3 aircraft has a clear advantage, which makes it possible to occupy the necessary excess in height and launch attacks from any direction.

The Me-410 pilot was never able to take aim on the Yak-3 aircraft.

It’s most advantageous to conduct an air battle with Me-410 at medium altitudes of 1000-1400 meters. It is easiest for Me-410 to avoid fighter attacks at low altitude. ”


Test pilot captain Pikulenko:

“At all flight modes, that is, at gaining altitude, when flying horizontally at maximum speed and at a decrease, the La-7 plane catches up with the Me-410, freely attacks it.

It is safe to attack Me-410 from below from below at angles of 60-70 degrees and exit attacks with a ranversman. In this case, the shooter does not see the enemy’s plane.

An attack from above from behind at large angles is also safe.

It is convenient to attack the Me-410 aircraft if it makes a U-turn. It is necessary to be inside the U-turn and carry out the attack from the angle 4 / 4, with the approach coming up from the attack with a turn towards Me-410. This will make it possible to take a starting position for a new attack and not lag behind Me-410.

In the event that the La-7 fighter jumped ahead of the Me 410 aircraft after an attack, it is necessary to sharply gain altitude with a turn to the side — so as not to fall under the fire of the Me 410 front points, the aircraft cannot make a sharp “slide”. After turning at 90 degrees, the fighter has the opportunity to stand on a course parallel to Me 410 and attack it from above at an angle of 60 degrees and from the side - at an angle of more than 45 degrees

I believe that if the attack is at an angle of less than 45 or even 30 degrees, there is no particular danger to get hit by the shooter, as he is uncomfortable to conduct aimed fire at large angles. "


Based on the results of test air battles, Soviet test pilots concluded that the Me-410, having an advantage in speed, was a great threat to the Tu-2 and Pe-2, and the advantage only increased with increasing height. The power of the airborne volley to destroy the bombers was more than enough.

With fighter Me-410 could lead an exclusively defensive battle, but both the Yak-3 and La-7, surpassing it in speed and maneuver, definitely won all the fights.

However, if the Me-410 could launch a head-on attack or catch a fighter that jumped forward in sight, the final for our aircraft would be very sad.

It was also noted that fighter attacks from below from behind, especially strictly in the tail, are difficult to repel the arrow of the Me-410 aircraft, and fire in these cases is most often not aimed.

Attacks of fighters at angles in the cone of more than 60 degrees are almost impossible to repel with mobile weapons due to the insufficient angles of firing of the rear machine guns and the relatively insufficient maneuverability of the Me-410 aircraft compared to the Yak-3 and La-7 fighters.

What conclusions can be drawn from everything read?

Yes, the Germans were able to bring to mind the Me-210 and as a result, a rather advanced aircraft with powerful weapons was obtained. And in the world there were very few bombers able to get away from such an interceptor or withstand the fire of its guns.

However, the lack of speed and maneuverability in comparison with single-engine fighters made the Me-410 fairly easy prey. 410 was simply unable to fight, even defensively, with those planes that entered the arsenal of the Allies in 1944.

In this case, Willy Messerschmitt was simply late with the plane.

LTH:
Modification Me-210A-2



Wingspan, m: 16,35
Length, m: 12,15
Height, m: 4,30
Wing area, м2: 36,25

Weight, kg
- empty aircraft: 7 275
- Maximum takeoff: 10 700

Engine: 2 x Daimler-Benz DB 601F x 1350 hp

Maximum speed km / h
- by the ground: 450
- at height: 535

Practical range, km: 1430
Maximum rate of climb, m / min: 535
Practical ceiling, m: 8900

Crew, prs: 2

Armament:
- two 20-mm MG 151 guns with 350 shells per barrel
- two 7,92-mm MG 17 machine guns with 1000 cartridges per barrel
- two 13-mm MG 131 machine guns in remotely controlled installations FDL 131 with 450 cartridges on the barrel
- 8 x 50-kg bombs.


Modification Me.410a-1 / u2



Wingspan, m: 16,35
Length, m: 12,50
Height, m: 4,30
Wing area, м2: 36,20
Weight, kg:
- empty aircraft: 7 525
- normal takeoff: 9 660

Engine: 2 x Daimler-Benz DB 603A x 1750 hp
Maximum speed km / h
- by the ground: 505
- at height: 620

Practical range, km: 1700
Maximum rate of climb, m / min: 650
Practical ceiling, m: 10 400
Crew, prs: 2

Armament:
- two 20-mm MG 151 guns with 350 shells on the barrel in the bow
- two 20-mm MG 151 guns in the WB 151 with 250 shells on the barrel
- two 7,92-mm MG 17 machine guns with 1000 cartridges per barrel
- Two 13-mm MG 131 machine guns with 500 cartridges per barrel in remotely controlled FDSL.

And finally - a film shot by the British in the process of conducting their flight tests Me-410.



Sources:
Andrey Haruk. Luftwaffe destroyers Bf 110, Me 210, Me 410.
Sergey Kolov, Andrey Kurakin. Planes of the world. Fighter Me 410.
Vladislav Shunkov. Luftwaffe Aviation.
Author:
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  1. andrewkor
    andrewkor 23 September 2019 05: 46
    0
    And not figs to tamper with world domination!
    We got a hemorrhagic war on two fronts, no wunderwaffen will help!
    1. Grandfather
      Grandfather 23 September 2019 06: 04
      +2
      "torments of creativity" are inherent in everyone who created something new, mistakes, search for solutions were also with us, all planes are not born by "clap of palms", describe Roman, "odyssey" of connection "of our analogs, we will not see much difference, except for the fact that the price of a mistake, in those times, the camp or even worse.
      1. t7310
        t7310 23 September 2019 19: 29
        +1
        https://youtu.be/E6CUXwzL8KE
      2. Magv
        Magv 22 December 2019 04: 07
        0
        Undoubtedly, the Germans worked in a "free European country", and ours in the "shackles of the hated Terran"
  2. svp67
    svp67 23 September 2019 07: 08
    +21
    In general, we can confidently say that Messerschmitt did not succeed in the true “Destroyers”.
    Complete - no. But I think that the failures of this aircraft are more connected with the wrong, or rather, the inability to use the correct tactics of their use. It is a pity that there is no way to get acquainted with the German reports precisely in the matter of working out the tactics of using these aircraft. The biggest problem of the Destroyers was not that they themselves could not oppose anything to the Mustangs, but that the Mustangs could do little to oppose the light, single-engine fighters of the Luftwaffe. If the latter could tightly tie the "Mustangs" in battle, then at this time the "Destroyers" would do their job, to "weed" the dense ranks of the Allied heavy bombers
    1. Mooh
      Mooh 23 September 2019 13: 53
      +4
      That's right. And there is one more nuance - Tsershtorer is tracing paper from the English Destroer, which is essentially a Destroyer and not a Destroyer. The name of these aircraft came from the sea term and was meant to denote a multifunctional aircraft that can destroy and bomb and scout. That is, he never thought of a full fighter. Therefore, it is not surprising that he could not withstand the battle with a modern fighter. His task is to shoot down bombers, transporters and obsolete fighters under the guise of their light forces. But light forces, as mentioned above, did not fulfill their task, they had more important things to do, build up personal accounts.
      1. Aleksandre
        Aleksandre 23 September 2019 15: 22
        +2
        Do you think that the Germans did not know the full English name of this class of ships, "Torpedo Boat Destroyer"? )
        1. Mooh
          Mooh 23 September 2019 19: 15
          +1
          Of course they knew, only they borrowed it before the First World War and widely used it in their fleet, from which the aviators in turn borrowed it;)
          1. Aleksandre
            Aleksandre 23 September 2019 20: 01
            0
            Since the Me-110 also had a Jagdbomber variant (fighter-bomber), what then was the heavy fighter called a "destroyer"? ) It seems to me that you are mistaken in the order of borrowing the word "destroyer". Yes, the naval ones named one of the classes of ships that way, but the flyers did not borrow from them, but, so to speak, turned to the origins, it hurts too much) That is, these are names that have arisen in parallel, which have no relation to each other.

            PS By the way, there are two different articles on the wiki about "Zerstorer" in German, one about destroyers, the other about heavy fighters, which kind of confirms my theory.
            1. Mooh
              Mooh 23 September 2019 20: 09
              0
              For the first time, they called the Tsershtorer the 110, moreover at the development stage, and then it seems to be like a class. As far as I know, the term is not official, but widespread.
              1. sevryuk
                sevryuk 23 September 2019 21: 39
                0
                The best translation of the word Zerstörer is "fighter"))
                1. Aleksandre
                  Aleksandre 23 September 2019 21: 45
                  +1
                  It is truth too. In general, all the subtle shades, revolutions and nuances of a language can only be understood by its native speaker.
  3. Dooplet11
    Dooplet11 23 September 2019 07: 34
    +16
    And 1941 year showsthat with crowds of english and American (especially) bombers need to do something! Moreover, everyone understands that they need to be shot down! And if the war with the British night raids was more or less managed to be solved with the help of the night fighters of Kammhuber, then in the afternoon ...
    ???? 41? He showed the Germans what to do with the crowds of American bombers? THIS IS NEW !!! Bravo, Roman!
    1. Rwmos
      Rwmos 23 September 2019 08: 36
      +6
      And it was precisely the daytime, and not the nighttime ones, that the English showed exactly that the British switched to night bombing, and so much was overreated that until the end of the war they rummaged over Germany only at night feel
    2. dauria
      dauria 24 September 2019 13: 31
      +1
      ???? 41?

      Also surprised. At the beginning of the war, the Germans generally made fighters "with laziness" - in one shift, an 8-hour working day with a five-day period. They were quite satisfied with the number and quality of the Messer and the Focke-Wulf who took the wing. Willie was already betting on the jet Me-262 at that time, and even that one was molded neither wobbly nor roll. Before the war, everyone was fond of twin-engine fighter-cruiser-raiders (it was this idea that gave the naval name to the class).
      Another struck how the Germans were able to create an unstable aircraft. After all, the proportions of the wing, shoulder and tail area (shoulder 2, 5 chords and area 20%) by that time were classics from the textbook and were observed in most aircraft. You can compare ours, German, English, even Japanese. Apparently, with centering, the odds were clever.
  4. sivuch
    sivuch 23 September 2019 08: 24
    0
    It should be added that the bzikom of the Luftwaffe was universal - i.e. part-time fighter should be a light bomber, reconnaissance, attack aircraft and beyond, as long as there is enough imagination. For 210 / 410, this resulted in a requirement to carry 2 by 500 on the internal suspension - with all the ensuing
    1. dik-nsk
      dik-nsk 23 September 2019 09: 48
      -4
      judging by the statements, a similar bzik is now with SU-57
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 23 September 2019 12: 10
      +6
      Quote: sivuch
      It should be added that the bzikom of the Luftwaffe was universal - i.e. part-time fighter should be a light bomber, reconnaissance, attack aircraft and beyond, as long as there is enough imagination.

      So everyone had such a bzik - and the Yankees, and Limes, and Yap, and ours. The same originally escort P-47 did a good job as a fighter-bomber.
      And God himself commanded the twin-engined men to be universal - for the most part, they grew out of the pre-war concept of the twin-engine universal machine: reconnaissance / fighter / bomber.
      1. sivuch
        sivuch 23 September 2019 13: 58
        0
        However, each vehicle had a primary purpose. If there were enough "reserves" of LTH, then one could think about other functions. Another option: the machine is no longer suitable as a fighter - as an IS will still serve well. The same thunder switched to i-b, when the Mustangs went en masse, which won primarily in flight range.
        Specifically, a ton of bombs on the internal suspension (a pawn and Ju-88 in the belly did not take so much) - these are hundreds of kilograms of excess airframe weight and excess drugs.
      2. Klingon
        Klingon 24 September 2019 10: 04
        +1
        P-47 was generally used the most as a ground attack aircraft and a bomber, and little as a fighter
      3. goose
        goose 8 October 2019 09: 55
        0
        Quote: Alexey RA
        So everyone had such a bzik - and the Yankees, and Limes, and Yap, and ours. The same originally escort P-47 did a good job as a fighter-bomber.

        Given that the PW-2800 appeared in 1936, the Americans were 6 years ahead of the Germans in engine building, and even more in the fuel industry.
        Accordingly, the designers had a huge handicap in front of everyone in terms of finishing and creating aircraft, as well as performance characteristics.
  5. dmmyak40
    dmmyak40 23 September 2019 09: 08
    +19
    After reading this not the first article by Roman I catch myself thinking that, in principle, a good article begins to cause frank irritation from the "jest" style of presentation. It's like in the current youth music (Feduk, etc.): the more disgusting, nasal and unintelligible voice you "sing", the better.
    All the same, VO is not the Krokodil or Smehopanorama magazine: serious topics require a serious style of presentation. IMHO, of course.
    1. sivuch
      sivuch 23 September 2019 09: 56
      +6
      Yes, the expression Everything was sadly repeated times 4
      1. dmmyak40
        dmmyak40 23 September 2019 10: 20
        +15
        This is not even the case: the sadness is that the following impression is being formed: the Germans are some kind of half-fools, designers are breaking through samples that are nothing of themselves, the industry seems to produce good products, but it is also bullshit. This is all at the level of sensations.
        As a result, we have not an analysis, but an assessment of the author of the article.
        1. abc_alex
          abc_alex 23 September 2019 10: 54
          +1
          Quote: dmmyak40
          All the same, VO is not the Krokodil or Smehopanorama magazine: serious topics require a serious style of presentation.


          But this is not a test commission report, nor technical documentation, is it? The article has enough strictly clerical text. Copyrighted text may reflect the author’s way of thinking. Someone thinks with Excel tables, and someone with beautiful pictures. To each his own.


          Quote: dmmyak40
          the Germans are some kind of nerds, designers are breaking through samples that are nothing of themselves, the industry seems to be producing good products, but it is also bullshit. This is all at the level of sensations.


          Yes, you see, the fact is that reality is more complicated than technical documentation. And in it, the subjective factor sometimes outweighs the objective. The author tries to explain the reason why the Luftwaffe adopted, to put it mildly, controversial samples.
          1. dmmyak40
            dmmyak40 23 September 2019 21: 14
            +9
            Aleksey, you are absolutely right, this is not a test commission report or technical documentation! Because the technical documentation is stated in a completely different language: believe the person who translated more than one MIL-STD spent a lot of time on this nerves.
            Let's take a look at the author's style: "bunch, cool, in droves, sad / sad (5 times), catching, sagren, advanced".
            I will clarify again: perhaps I am too demanding of the author, but there’s nothing you can do about it, at one time my Ph.D. dissertation made me a little more demanding about writing texts not related to "pulp fiction".
            To the author: Roman, try to be critical of your criticism, try to find something that will help you make your work better.
        2. lucul
          lucul 23 September 2019 22: 31
          -2
          This is not even the case: the sadness is that the following impression is being formed: the Germans are some kind of half-fools, designers are breaking through samples that are nothing of themselves, the industry seems to produce good products, but it is also bullshit. This is all at the level of sensations.

          The author simply contrasts Western propaganda, which poured a wide river in the 80's, where German technology is the standard, and Soviet technology is bullshit. And the author simply debunks these myths.
          1. dmmyak40
            dmmyak40 23 September 2019 23: 14
            +2
            Perhaps, but this can be done in different ways: you can carelessly spit on the Germans with their "miscarriage" and with a slight splash of modern vocabulary from the height of knowledge of many decades.
            And you can calmly, thoughtfully, reasonably, without unnecessary epithets and emotive markers to submit material. Without turning, of course, it into a technical report. What, alas, the authors sometimes sin: a screaming headline (sometimes far from the essence), a couple of paragraphs with general reasoning and a lot of LTH.
    2. vadim dok
      vadim dok 23 September 2019 14: 43
      0
      I completely agree! If you write for VO, you need to pay more attention to the design!
  6. Engineer
    Engineer 23 September 2019 10: 59
    +15
    And 1941 year shows that something needs to be done with crowds of English and American (especially) bombers!

    Crowds of Americans in 41? Something new. Amer’s full-scale air offensive began in 44. In 43, there were separate, not very successful, let's say raids, and even without full fighter cover.
    In general, not Bf.109 or Bf.110. And in such conditions, work began on the Me-210.

    The author himself writes about the first flight of Me-210 in 1939 year. That is, he began to be created to war. Under the conditions of the doctrine of a heavy fighter as a further development of the Me-110, to the bashing received in the battle for Britain. Me-210 was created as part of the pre-war doctrine And no armadas of bombers in the afternoon at that time.
    Beyond Understanding- Well, I don’t know, everything is clear to me. Having established with Me-210, old Willy made a good fighter-bomber better than Pe-2 and Pe-3.
    And if the war with the British night raids was more or less managed to be solved with the help of the night fighters of Kammhuber

    Failed, although the losses were serious. The main enemy of the British was the low accuracy of bombing at night. By the 44th year it was solved. And so, already in 43, raids of "thousands of bombers" were launched, with dire consequences for the Germans.
    The Yak-3 aircraft easily catches up and attacks Me-410 at altitudes of 1000-1500 meters and in all flight modes
    .
    Here our pilots, with all due respect, played along with themselves. Hornet, attacked the fortresses for 6-7 km. What about a fight there? The best Yak-3 and La-7 planes against the "fat hornet"? Well ok, what about cobras, La-5, Yak-9?
    I think the Me-410 would have done a lot of trouble on the Eastern Front, acting as a bomber and attack aircraft, complementing the focus.
    In reality, the "hornets" did work for which they were not originally intended. Attack of formations of 1000 fortresses with a powerful fighter that accompany the bombers for the entire radius? Who in 42-43 could have thought such a thing? The USAF presented the enemy with a task that had no solution in principle. At that time, only another America could fight in the air with America. What's the criticism of Willie and his hornet? They just adequately continued the line of development of the 110th, there were no other tasks at that time

    I thought that the article was written by Kaptsov. Unpleasant and unexpected unification. A flashy headline, serious mistakes, and most importantly, incomprehensible claims to at least a good plane. Methodically a failure. There is no statement of the question, the conclusions are incorrect, well, or at least controversial, sometimes giving off "yellowness". VO slowly lowers the bar. It is necessary at least by the results of the year to determine the best / worst authors and articles by the results of voting.
    1. Warrior2015
      Warrior2015 23 September 2019 20: 24
      +1
      Quote: Engineer
      The USAF set an adversary task that had no solution in principle. Then only another America could fight in the air with America. What is the criticism of Willy and his hornet here?

      Well, not quite; the resources of Europe united under the auspices of Germany would have allowed to do this - and the Germans could have won if they had either only the Western, or only the Eastern fronts.

      Let me remind you that Britain was ready to surrender and go global with Germany ... no, not in the fall of 1940, but in the fall of 1944! (the result of the V-2, even without gas and atomic filling) Only the Allies' sharp advance forward on the continent and the US statement that in the event of a separate armistice Washington would declare war on London kept the British among the warring allies.

      Quote: Engineer
      Having established with Me-210, old Willy made a good fighter-bomber better than Pe-2 and Pe-3.
      Well, the author does not like German planes, and especially the Bf-110-Me-210 - Me-410 line. But the car came out excellent in the end, better than the Pe-2 and Pe-3, more or less comparable in some ways with the Tu-2. But the Soviet Yak-2 and Yak-4, complete analogues in the class - so in general, after all, the cars did not go in any way.
    2. lucul
      lucul 23 September 2019 22: 37
      0
      An attack of formations from 1000 fortresses with powerful fighter which accompany bombers over the entire radius? Who in the 42-43 years would have thought such a thing ?.

      In the USSR, even before the war, such a concept was considered the main one, and the MiG-3 was created for it. )))
    3. Oleg Zorin
      Oleg Zorin 28 September 2019 08: 49
      0
      Well said about the unsolvable problem. And about the fact that only other America could fight in the air with America. Respect!
    4. Wildcat
      Wildcat 17 December 2019 18: 21
      0
      "A flashy headline, serious mistakes, and most importantly, incomprehensible claims to at least a good aircraft. Methodically a failure. The question is not raised, the conclusions are incorrect, or at least controversial, sometimes giving off" yellowness. " according to the results of the year, determine the best / worst authors and articles by the results of voting. "
      hi
      I join the opinion. Worse and worse.
      The good thing is that now there is no time to write about errors in the article.
  7. yehat
    yehat 23 September 2019 11: 26
    +6
    Quote: svp67
    but the fact that the "Mustangs" little could oppose the light, single-engine fighters of the Luftwaffe.

    The main problem was banal numbers.
    in 44 it was the norm when 20 "thin" tried to tie in battle one and a half escort fighters.
    German aces noted that when the numerical superiority was 1 to 2 - you could still fight
    but the skill factor lost meaning when 1 was superior to 4 and higher - the battle turned into a beating, because American aircraft in terms of performance characteristics, even if they were inferior, are insignificant, and the allies simply did not have inexperienced pilots.
  8. Pavel57
    Pavel57 23 September 2019 12: 50
    +1
    Me-210 is the same age as the Yak-2.
  9. venik
    venik 23 September 2019 13: 12
    -3
    THANK YOU VERY MUCH ( good good ) Roman Skomorokhov! GREAT article!
    I do not always agree with the Author ... But I read THIS material with HUGE pleasure: Unfortunately, FREQUENTLY on VO there are materials about little-known events or samples of military equipment .... Oh, NOT FREQUENTLY !!! But THIS IS THE MOST INTERESTING !!!
    For many years he was interested in the history of aviation 2 MB and WWII. But still did not know ANYTHING about these cars!
    ------
    PS Here IN THIS, as for me it is KOZYRAYA CHIP "Military Review"!
    Personal request: IF anyone knows what, especially one that few people know (this is especially history concerns, about modern "things" - sometimes it's better to keep quiet!) - WRITE!
    Let's not be afraid "throwing slippers"- smart - will understand, but on durakov - all the same "you will not get enough"!
    Soon I will try it myself ..........
    1. Ural-4320
      Ural-4320 23 September 2019 14: 48
      +2
      Well, give !!! Really on airwar.ru never entered? belay
      1. venik
        venik 23 September 2019 18: 44
        +1
        Quote: Ural-4320
        Well, give !!! Really on airwar.ru never entered? belay

        =========
        "... Ever since my uncle bought the Encyclopedia (Corner of the Sky), he seems to have gotten to the letter" M ".....

        (x / f "Vendetta in Corsican") wassat
        1. Ural-4320
          Ural-4320 23 September 2019 19: 01
          0
          Need to watch a movie. Did not see him.
  10. Undecim
    Undecim 23 September 2019 13: 24
    +5
    It is clear that Mr. Messerschmitt was not just cool in those years, he calmly furnished his competitors from Focke-Wulf, Heinkel, Dornier and Arado in the backstage scams.
    At the suggestion of some kind of "nameless hero", the version about the "intriguer Messerschmitt" went for a walk and multiplied, whose aircraft entered service exclusively thanks to the designer's behind-the-scenes machinations. ...
  11. tolancop
    tolancop 23 September 2019 13: 43
    +7
    It is interesting to read .... But the author clearly has a problem with the chronology ..
    "... From where the problem of the twin-engine fighter grew wings, we already know. From the Bf-110, which at the beginning of the war could at best defend itself. ... About being a real" Destroyer "or" Destroyer "( Zerstörer translates something like this), the speech was no longer in 1941 ...
    ... And now 1941 year shows that something needs to be done with crowds of English and American (especially) bombers! Moreover, everyone understands that they must be shot down! ....
    .... In the afternoon, we needed a high-altitude, powerful in terms of weapons and fast-speed aircraft with a large radius of action and / or the ability to barrage for a long time, waiting for the enemy to approach.
    In general, not Bf.109 or Bf.110. And in such conditions, work began on the Me-210. A heavy attacking twin-engine fighter capable of fighting American and British bombers ..... "

    So .... the year of the manifestation of the problems is named ... the year 1941.
    Further....
    "... Our hero, starting from the first flight in 1939, showed his convention as an airplane ..."
    Based on the author's account, in 1941 the need for a new aircraft appeared and work began on the ME-210, which made its first flight in 1939, i.e. on 2 years before work began on it.

    Like most of the author’s materials, this material leaves a double impression ... On the one hand, it’s interesting to read, but on the other ... you come across a bunch of inconsistencies and controversial statements.
    From my point of view, the result of reading jokes will be similar: easy, interesting, funny ....., but that does not correspond to the truth - it does not matter. Unpleasant, to be honest. From the disrespect of the author to his readers ....
  12. shinobi
    shinobi 23 September 2019 14: 13
    0
    I’m wondering what they flew unaccompanied? For one "heavy" 2 lightweights, the axiom of war deduced by typing in combat. In fact, 410 and its predecessor are flying weapon platforms.
    1. Alf
      Alf 23 September 2019 22: 02
      +1
      Quote: shinobi
      I’m wondering what they flew unaccompanied?

      But single-engine motors are not born by budding, conveyors are not rubber. Ours at 41-42 also threw IL-2 and SB without an escort not from stupidity, but from a shortage of fighters.
  13. dgonni
    dgonni 23 September 2019 16: 20
    -8
    Very sensible article! Respect! In fact, some developments then migrated to the Red Army aircraft. In principle, they tried to make a station wagon out of it, instead of creating a replacement thing. But the armada of fortresses demanded their share of blood, therefore, glory to all the saints that they did not make an analog of Yu-87 from it.
    1. Wolga
      Wolga 23 September 2019 20: 08
      +4
      Dear, do you understand the difference between a diving bomber and a heavy twin-engine fighter, the concept of which was originally laid down for the possibility of universality of use?
      1. dgonni
        dgonni 24 September 2019 08: 52
        0
        I absolutely understand! Example pawn! And if Deutsch had begun to produce it to replace the thing instead of the wagon foker, then the Red Army would have had VERY many problems! For the speed is much more, a wide range of bomb loads, plus excellent security!
        And given the ability of the Germans even at the end of the war to accumulate forces in the necessary sectors of the front? I don’t even want to imagine what a big deal 410 could do.
        1. Oleg Zorin
          Oleg Zorin 28 September 2019 08: 54
          -1
          Pawn, by the way, is a very mediocre dive player. Although it was created precisely as a dive player.
  14. DimerVladimer
    DimerVladimer 23 September 2019 16: 35
    +2
    However, the lack of speed and maneuverability in comparison with single-engine fighters made the Me-410 fairly easy prey. 410 was simply unable to fight, even defensively, with those planes that entered the arsenal of the Allies in 1944.


    How many times you can repeat - air combat, this is not a single combat martial arts!
    Air combat is a competent tactical formation.
    Of course, the Me-410 is difficult to resist single-engine fighters, it was created to withstand the bombers.

    The use of Me-410 as high-speed bombers is fully justified
    In January 1944, V./KG 2 was renamed II./KG 51. Together with I./KG 51 "Edelweiss", which had already switched from Ju-88 to Me-410A-1, the group began raids on Great Britain. The allies named this operation "Baby blitz"

    The paradox is that they were brilliantly opposed by nightlights - Mosquito fighters ...

    But the bomb load Pe-2 normal 600 kg, overload 1000 kg., Me-410 - 1000 kg.
  15. Andron59
    Andron59 23 September 2019 18: 31
    0
    Oh guys, you did not play WarThunder, nor do you understand the technology, unlike the developers of the game. Here luminaries and geniuses sit in the development of technology in Western countries. Learn from them. ))) (I was joking)
  16. Pancer_Hrek
    Pancer_Hrek 23 September 2019 21: 37
    0
    There is a good video about this aircraft, and in general on the topic of 2's WWII motor fighter jets
    1. sergevl
      sergevl 23 September 2019 22: 36
      +2
      Guys, again on points.
      Zerstorer 110 was unsuitable for dog dumps over the strait and the surrounding area in 40-41 years. He was beaten by spitfires and Hurricanes. Therefore, 110 zerstorer occupied two niches: a bomber fighter on the eastern front, and a night fighter on the western. In fact, the entire pogrom organized by 22 on June at our airdromes would not have been possible without the hard work of the Zerstorer groups with cluster bombs. And on LTH. In the 43 year, 110 with 605 engines took 2 bombs on the external suspension for 1000 kg. He had powerful cannon weapons. Zerstorer groups on 110 fought from Gibraltar to the Arctic.
      1. sergevl
        sergevl 23 September 2019 22: 40
        +2
        110 Messers in a nightly fighter version extended the whole war until 1945, radar, music, direction finders, and much much more. So this plane was not so bad at all.
        1. sergevl
          sergevl 23 September 2019 22: 45
          +2
          And 410 itself was not so bad, just in those conditions there was no chance for any aircraft of those times. Let the Mosquito fortresses or the latest bofayter catch your eye. The same, there are few chances against machine guns of boxes of fortresses and escort p-51. By the way, the same legendary Mosquito was completely knocked down by the fokke 190 wolves with competent guidance from behind with an excess, developing a high speed at a decrease.
      2. Oleg Zorin
        Oleg Zorin 28 September 2019 08: 57
        +1
        I’ll probably really surprise you, but the pogrom was on June 22 and it was not at the airfields. There were losses, but not at all pogroms. It is a myth.
        1. sergevl
          sergevl 28 September 2019 10: 23
          0
          June 22, 1941 will forever remain in our memory the day of the greatest tragedy. The most severe damage was suffered by Soviet aircraft. Domestic historians estimate the losses for this day at the 66th border airdromes subjected to a sudden attack at 800 aircraft, and the total aircraft losses of 1160 aircraft
          1. sergevl
            sergevl 28 September 2019 10: 24
            -1
            The daily loss of 1160 aircraft, as I understand it, mere trifles?
  17. iouris
    iouris 23 September 2019 22: 20
    +1
    In what units is the relevance of a publication measured (roughly speaking, what is impossible to live without is relevant)?
  18. dmmyak40
    dmmyak40 24 September 2019 22: 59
    0
    Quote: iouris
    In what units is the relevance of a publication measured (roughly speaking, what is impossible to live without is relevant)?

    At HP - that is, Hype Power!
    1. Oleg Zorin
      Oleg Zorin 28 September 2019 08: 58
      0
      In the RS. Sorry, could not resist!
  19. Oleg Zorin
    Oleg Zorin 28 September 2019 08: 38
    0
    In 1941 crowds of British (and especially American) bombers over Germany were not visible.
  20. Miner
    Miner 1 October 2019 03: 29
    0
    If the Me-410 caught up and attacked the bombers, everything was pretty sad for the latter.
    ...
    there were very few bombers in the world able to get away from such an interceptor or withstand the fire of its guns.


    2 (two, only two) 20 mm cannons. allow us to speak about the "rather sad" consequences for 4-engine bombers unable to withstand the fire of these two guns?

    Yah!


    PS
    As comrade Sukhov said in his book: "On the commander's plane, the little fluff is 20 mm!", Not like 37 mm. on the plane of Pokryshkin and Sukhov himself.
  21. Grossvater
    Grossvater 13 December 2019 12: 50
    0
    Nuuu ... The Germans generally counted on the flight of the Valkyries, but they had to fight in a situation: "the phenomenon of fried roosters." 210 normal test plane, leg of the way. If they hadn't made so many of them, no one would have remembered anything about him.
    410th good aircraft, really one of the first truly multi-purpose. The fact that he was raking from the Yakov and the Lavochins in a maneuvering battle is normal.
    The only thing that the Germans, by virtue of their malignant kolovolos, was too clever, is the location of defensive weapons. The rotation of the machine guns on the aircraft influenced the behavior of the machine too much. You just had to put a normal twin unit on the feeder. It is possible, in principle, even single, if there were problems with the weight distribution.