Control points. Chinese-Russian CR929 aircraft going to the sky

Entertaining numerology

The wide-body CR929 should be considered Sino-Russian: the letter C is responsible for China, and R is for Russia. The joint venture for the development and assembly of winged vehicles is called CRAIC, China-Russia Commercial Aircraft International Corporation Limited. The 929 number also has some sacred meaning for the Chinese public - the 9 number stands for eternity, and the 929 index serves as a logical continuation of the name of the narrow-body COMNX919. But for Russian users there is a continuity, albeit not so obvious. Look, the MC-21, which has not yet reached the operational level, has 200 / 300 / 400 modifications in the project, and CR929 variants will be with additional 500 / 600 / 700 indexes. Elegant, isn't it? In fairness, it should be said that the aircraft is developed primarily for the market of Southeast Asia. CRAIC's head office is also located in China - it was opened in Shanghai on 22 on May 2017 of the year.

According to the plan of work on the new machine, they are geographically divided: in Russia, a center wing and wing consoles with mechanization are being developed, and in the PRC (more precisely, at COMAC), the fuselage and plumage. At the same time, the Russian side very much hopes that work on integrating the machine into a single whole will nevertheless go on in our country. Also in Russia, engineers will be fully responsible for all the avionics and logic of the control systems. The developments in vacuum infusion methods that we received with the “black wing” of MS-21 will also find their place in CR929. How much is story with a wide-body aircraft? As the head of the KLA, Yuri Slyusar, notes, in general, it is planned to spend no more than 20 billion dollars, naturally, sharing costs between the 50 / 50 countries. However, if you recall the constantly growing spending on SSJ-100 and MS-21 projects, you can hardly believe it. In September of 2018, the Minister of Industry and Trade Denis Manturov spoke at the peak of Slyusar when he announced the total value of 40 billion rubles.

CR929 Three-Class Layout Layout

Partner countries, according to the minister, will invest 20 billion in just three years. In general, you will not envy the integrators of the aircraft project: the car has two main designers, and the design bureaus are located almost on different ends of the continent. Only in Moscow are plans to gather more than 800 specialists of various profiles, both from the Russian and Chinese sides, under one roof of Sukhoi Civil Aircraft and the UAC. The developers plan in Russia to attract Aerocomposite JSC for the assembly of the wing, Irkut, and specialists in wide fuselages from Ilyushin. In this sense, the Chinese are easier, they are not so at risk of running into foreign sanctions and therefore attract foreign "helpers". So, with the Italian Leonardo 26 on October 2018, a joint venture Kangde Marco Polo Aerostructures Jiangsu was laid in Zhangjiang.

Chinese composite fuselage

They will be engaged in the development and production of composite sections of the fuselage. And already on 26 of December of the same year, an experimental composite fuselage part with a length of 15 and a diameter of 6 meters was ready for Chinese partners. By the way, according to preliminary plans, the proportion of composites in the aircraft structure may exceed the record 50% (for SSJ100 - 10%, MS-21 - about 30%). CR929 has not actually left the stage of preliminary design, and China is already fantasizing about its military version. In particular, there are thoughts about building a strategic tanker and AWACS aircraft.

Step by step

At the moment, the most interesting controversial moment in the history of CR929 is the choice of a site for the production of a huge composite wing. The problem is that it is not included in the An-124 cockpit, no one will give money for the development of a specialized aircraft for transportation (and never pay for it like that), but somehow it is necessary to deliver the assembly to the stocks in Shanghai. The possibility of disassembling parts from Ulyanovsk is being considered, but this entails difficulties with the design and makes it heavier. Trying to get the wing on water is ridiculous - just look at the globe for that. One thing remains: to build new production near China, presumably near the port of Vladivostok. And these are separate and considerable investments. Where will they be found and then what will Russia do immediately with two factories specializing in composite production?

At the moment, the CR929 development process, according to officials, is going according to plan. In the near future will be passed the control point Gate 3. That is, a preliminary study ends and are determined with the main suppliers of on-board systems. At the previous Gate 2 point, which the developers successfully passed at the very end of the 2017 of the year, defended the technical concept or philosophy of the future machine. And here the issue with engines remains unresolved. They are considering ready-made options from GE (GEnx-1B76) and Rolls-Rolls (Trent 7000 or 1000E), which even though now install under the wings, but Russian and Chinese engineers want, of course, their product. An alternative for the distant future will be the promising PD-35 with a thrust of about 35 tons, but it will have to wait about 8-10 years. Therefore, you have to choose between American and British proposals. In addition to choosing a power plant, engineers by the end of this year to complete the Gate 3 need to have time to work out the nuances of aerodynamics, choose materials for the design and carefully work with future customers.

Chinese fighting fantasies regarding CR929

It is assumed that the main customers will be "their" companies Air China, China Eastern and China Southera - in this sector CR929 plans to squeeze the duopoly of Boeing and Airbus. In total, China will be able to buy about 1200 aircraft in twenty years, while in Russia, a maximum of orders for 120 aircraft will be gathered in the same time. And this is at best. The first supply contracts and letters of intent at CRAIC are already awaiting the technical design phase. That's exactly when the project is waiting for the most serious multibillion expenditures, the first delays in the stages of development and the first unforeseen expenses. Actually, everything that we saw and observe with the SSJ100 and MS-21 projects. According to the most cautious opinions, we will see the first prototypes of the car in the sky in the 2023-2025 years. At the moment, the developer is not going to move away from the key concept of CR929.

The fuselage demonstration part for MAX-2019 and Guangzhou

This long-range wide-body aircraft is supposed to be built in three versions of the basic version of the CR929-600 on the 281 passenger in the three-class version, on the 291 person in the two-class layout and on the 405 in the single-class version. There is also an “extreme” version for 440 people, which will be placed in seats with a sealed arrangement. Apparently, a fragment of just such a cabin caused a grin from Erdogan at the MAKS-2019 air show. The Russian president then showed the Turkish leader a full-size model of the compartment of the aircraft 22 meters long, 5,9 meters wide and 6,5 meters high, which was brought specifically for the Moscow air show from China. The real CR929 will be a large machine - take-off weight in all versions will be equal to 245 tons, wingspan - 63,9 meters, the length of the “six hundred” version will reach 63,8 meters, and the height will be 17,4 meters. The flight range, depending on the modification (short 500, medium 600 and long 700) will vary from 10000 to 14000 kilometers.

No matter how corny it sounds, CR929 will have to be tight in terms of conquering the market. Of course, in both Russia and China it will be possible to turn on the administrative resource and force companies to turn their eyes to the new product, but in other markets Boeing and Airbus will remain unshakable. New-fashioned chips such as an ultralight composite case and unique fuel efficiency will not help here. It is necessary to create a global fleet service system and build a reputation. And this, unfortunately, is not included in the financial plan of the CR929 project.

Comments

[Zaurbek]

In particular, there are thoughts about building a strategic tanker and AWACS aircraft.

And in these options, PD35 is indispensable.

[silverwolf88]

it’s needed in any options ... as soon as a Boeing or Airbus sees a competitor ... a circus with horses (with engines) will start ... we with a composite wing already went through the topic

[Professor]

No matter how corny it sounds, CR929 will have to be tight in terms of conquering the market. Of course, in both Russia and China it will be possible to turn on the administrative resource and force companies to turn their eyes to the new product, but in other markets Boeing and Airbus will remain unshakable. New-fashioned chips such as an ultralight composite case and unique fuel efficiency will not help here. It is necessary to create a global fleet service system and build a reputation. And this, unfortunately, is not included in the financial plan of the CR929 project.

"Dear passengers, we offer you to choose which liner to carry out the transatlantic flight. European Airbus, American Boeing or sino-Russian CR929. "Something like that.
It's not about the original price of the aircraft or fuel efficiency. Although I doubt that the future plane will break records. The thing is reputation. And this is reliability, reliability, and again reliability.

[donavi49]

Well, at the time, Watermelon was also nobody. Some kind of a new manufacturer, like they used to make planes, but now everything has been rebuilt and merged with other companies. Nevertheless, the A-300 became successful, despite the small release (by the standards of Watermelon today) in 500 machines. And this gave an impetus to further work.

Here the key point is the Asian market. The article even says that Russia will sell such aircraft 100-120 = even if it actively uses administrative resources. China is 1000 +. Plus, he will begin to promote them in all sorts of Bangladesh, Pakistan, and Africa.

[Professor]

Quote: donavi49

Well, at the time, Watermelon was also nobody.

Dornier Flugzeugwerke, founded in 1914, entered the consortium Aerbas, among others "nobody".

Quote: donavi49

Here the key point is the Asian market. The article even says that Russia will sell such aircraft 100-120 = even if it actively uses administrative resources. China is 1000 +. Plus, he will begin to promote them in all sorts of Bangladesh, Pakistan, and Africa.

Not so fast. The only advantage of the Chinese was the cheap labor. Today this is no longer the case. For example, at our factory near Shanghai, a worker receives more than $ 1 per month, a novice mechanical engineer $ 000. Moreover. that in the aviation industry, the unit cost of labor in the price of the final product is not high. Moreover, the global carbon producers are not Russia and not China, but the bourgeois. So what kind of Asians and Africans will buy Sino-Russian aircraft?

Quote: Pivot

Professor, do not smack nonsense, they will fly on a more comfortable flight and at a lower ticket price. In short, on the one that the airline will provide, I have been flying every week for many years, and in my lifetime both Boeing and Airbuses took off flights because of malfunctions, and I love flying on the Superjet, as it’s the most comfortable in its class, yes to the embraer and Bombardier far to him. Only the paid tolls sit and stink that everything is bad and that it will not fly, everything will fly in spite of the liberal sale.

And I do not fly on dubious somalets and dubious airlines. Neither at work nor in private.

[donavi49]

Dornier Flugzeugwerke, founded in 1914, entered the consortium Aerbas, among others "nobody".

Well, you said about brand recognition. Only experts knew who went in there. Only the aviation enthusiasts knew that Watermelon was assembled on the basis of existing manufacturers and designers of aircraft. 99.99% of people who bought a plane ticket = didn't know anything about Watermelon. That is, they did not have brand recognition, unlike Boeing, TriStar and Douglas. Well, or Caravels / Vickers-BAE = if it comes to Europe.

[Professor]

Quote: donavi49

Dornier Flugzeugwerke, founded in 1914, entered the consortium Aerbas, among others "nobody".

Well, you said about brand recognition. Only experts knew who went in there. Only the aviation enthusiasts knew that Watermelon was assembled on the basis of existing manufacturers and designers of aircraft. 99.99% of people who bought a plane ticket = didn't know anything about Watermelon. That is, they did not have brand recognition, unlike Boeing, TriStar and Douglas. Well, or Caravels / Vickers-BAE = if it comes to Europe.

It was enough to declare a German and French manufacturer. Brand promotion is a bargain. On the other hand, a Chinese manufacturer and a Chinese reputation.

[donavi49]

Ksiaomi gobbled up how much of the market, backing off all sorts of Koreans with a huge reputation and almost burying the island's CTS.

This is a Chinese manufacturer, a Chinese brand, with a Chinese reputation. . And he is not even 10 years old.

[Professor]

Quote: donavi49

Ksiaomi gobbled up how much of the market, backing off all sorts of Koreans with a huge reputation and almost burying the island's CTS.

This is a Chinese manufacturer, a Chinese brand, with a Chinese reputation. . And he is not even 10 years old.

Xiomi took the market in the segment of cheap cell phones with weak indicators. Moreover, the technology he used was not Chinese. Unlike Huei. The aircraft under discussion does not pretend to be a low-end, but at least a direct competitor to Boeing and Airbus. And in this, the Chinese have no competitive advantage. Suppose they are subsidized by the Chinese government at the beginning. The first one cannot last so long, the second one, it does not work in the foreign market.

[LastPS]

Xiomi took the market in the segment of cheap cell phones with weak indicators.

What? First of all, they have flagships and they are at least a third cheaper than their analogues in performance, and secondly, inexpensive models are better than their analogues or they are not inferior, having a convenient infrastructure and flexible MIUI on board.

[bayard]

Quote: professor

Moreover, the global carbon producers are not Russia and not China, but the bourgeois. So what kind of Asians and Africans will buy Sino-Russian aircraft?

Global carbon manufacturers in this project may even be left out of the project. For the production of the MC-21 wing and other domestic projects, the construction of large production capacities of the same carbon fiber and resins is being completed, and since we will produce the wing and tail in a joint project with the Chinese, the capacities are also calculated for their production. So everything will be its own, and with such volumes over time and in the leaders can be.
Will planes take Africa and Asia?
First of all, airplanes will go to the DOMESTIC market of China and Russia. It is in these markets that both reputation and statistics will be built up. At the same time, they will fly to all ends of the planet and everyone will see them. And if Chinese banks offer more profitable leasing + better fuel efficiency ... they will take it. And even for political reasons - the United States greatly spoils its reputation, has become very unpredictable and any alternative with decent quality will be welcomed (remember who is now the main investor in Africa ... and Asia, too).

[Professor]

Quote: bayard

Global carbon manufacturers in this project may even be left out of the project. For the production of the wing MS-21 and other domestic projects ends the construction of large production capacities of the same carbon fiber and resins, and since we will produce wing and tail in a joint project with the Chinese, the capacities are also calculated for their production. So everything will be its own, and with such volumes over time and in the leaders can be.

Built? Certified? It turned out to be better and cheaper than the bourgeois?

Quote: bayard

First of all, airplanes will go to the DOMESTIC market of China and Russia. It is in these markets that both reputation and statistics will be built up. They will fly to all ends of the planet and everyone will see them. And if Chinese banks offer more profitable leasing + better fuel efficiency ... they will take it. And even for political reasons - the United States greatly spoils its reputation, has become very unpredictable and any alternative with decent quality will be welcomed (remember who is now the main investor in Africa ... and Asia, too).

Not so fast. Must pass certification.

[bayard]

Quote: professor

Built? Certified? It turned out to be better and cheaper than the bourgeois?

Carbon was produced before and its quality was quite consistent, but the volumes were small - only military needs, and they are limited. The attempt of the international division of labor has not justified itself, and now this production will satisfy its needs to meet all needs (including for the future).
There is still a year and a half until the completion of the work, but no doubt - all of our technologies (Sarov Center).

Quote: professor

Not so fast. Must pass certification.

Don’t worry about it.

[Pivot]

But aren't they any doubtful? For me, let’s say Delta British or Lufthansa are more doubtful than Aeroflot or Turkish Airlines, the ships of the latter are newer and have a high level of service.

[Pivot]

Professor, do not smack nonsense, they will fly on a more comfortable flight and at a lower ticket price. In short, on the one that the airline will provide, I have been flying every week for many years, and in my lifetime both Boeing and Airbuses took off flights because of malfunctions, and I love flying on the Superjet, as it’s the most comfortable in its class, yes to the embraer and Bombardier far to him. Only the paid tolls sit and stink that everything is bad and that it will not fly, everything will fly in spite of the liberal sale.

[Rwmos]

Quote: professor

The point is in reputation.

... which is Boeing and so below the baseboard:
https://afirsov.livejournal.com/450216.html
... and after Max’s deliberate marriage in 737, which led to a catastrophe, M — the Russian-Chinese plane has a winning position ... Especially after a month ago the Norwegian Dreamliner poured out its engine on Rome during takeoff

Once again, the prokhessor blurted out the truth on his knee-elbow reflexes - the reputation is playing, and Boeing has it disgusting

[Ural-4320]

The reputation of the Soviet Tu-114 was such that Japan entered into an agreement with the USSR for their operation. And just as the USSR gave slack, they so gobbled up IL-86 on the world market.

[gurzuf]

Boeing is especially reliable

[Vadim237]

Boeing has already buried its reputation by introducing 737MAX clients with software jokes, this year the company will not have a weak loss.

[lexseyOGK]

Especially Boeing's reputation.

[donavi49]

The problem is that it is not included in the An-124 cockpit, no one will give money for the development of a specialized aircraft for transportation (and never pay for it like that), but somehow it is necessary to deliver the assembly to the stocks in Shanghai.

Overcoming problems always pushes evolution forward. Moreover, the problems are quite typical and not too extensive. If you look at the assembly card of the same Watermelon - there the hair will stand on end at all places and it is generally unclear which AI / or people could build logistics on this.

Well, on the whole, this is a fundamentally progressive aircraft, and if it is behind the world aviation as a whole, it’s by 5-7 years. Not for 40 years, like IL-96 with attempts to revive it for 50 billion rubles and a couple of dozen boards in the wetest expectations of the UAC (if it comes out to keep the price at 8bn for the plane).

[certero]

Practice has shown that there is no engine of its own - there is no aircraft of its own.

[iConst]

Quote: certero

Practice has shown that there is no engine of its own - there is no aircraft of its own.

This rule applies to any key node. The hegemon is still strong and can still dictate his will to the vassals. Even the Chinese are carefully weighing the consequences of their steps when it comes to technologies that are sanctioned for Russia.

[Pivot]

Well, the author directly makes a bold conclusion, right at the very beginning of the development program, at least. More liberal conclusions stink.

[2 Level Advisor]

Vasily, did you read who, if not accepted in Russia, is liberals in general? (there is nothing wrong with their teaching, even a very good idea)
and as for the aircraft .. we are manufacturing technology for them .. are it possible that our men’s hands have dried up and wouldn’t have done it ourselves? and 120 planes out of 1200 to us .. that's 10 percent .. it's a shame that China does planes for us, they survived .. it's really a shame ... globalization has her foot

[Pivot]

I’ll tell you one clever thing, just don’t be offended, the production is now concentrated or where it is convenient to transport the raw materials providing this production, if the logistics of raw materials are more expensive than the logistics of finished products or directly from the sales market if the logistics of finished products are more expensive, an example is the Stavropol holding Energomera , built 2 factories for the production of sapphire displays for televisions and smartphones in China, as consumers of their products are there, and a plant working for the defense industry and producing sapphires e glass for Swiss watches is located in Russia. This is not globalization. These are simple rules of the economy. Their mother is like that.

[anzar]

Nice review

Trying to get the wing on water is ridiculous - just look at the globe for that.

Why? Volga-Don-Azov ... The wing is not a perishable cargo, but a long delivery time is critical only with incident orders.

"Chinese battle fantasies regarding CR929"

But do they have a rigid barbell refueling system? Or are you planning?

[Pavel57]

How the parties invest money - I see. And how will the profit be divided?

[Victoria-V]

Let's not share the skin of an unkilled bear. First you need to secure funding for this project and start working on the project. The author correctly notes: "The CR929 has not actually left the preliminary design stage yet."

[knn54]

Well, Airbus really hoped for the Asian market. As a result, China’s airlines purchased only 6 aircraft, but no one else.
It's too early to talk about orders - there is no plane yet, and what it will be released is not yet clear. And considering doing business in Chinese and business in Russian, especially the "specific" understanding by the Chinese of partnership, the likelihood that the plane will appear is low.
And the Yankees with their sanctions are not asleep.

[donavi49]

If he does not appear, then someone will be shot. The project oversees C and is conducted at the highest level of control. Therefore, the analysis will be tough if it does not fly.

Another question is that they can not reach the declared characteristics, as with C919. However, the plane will fly guaranteed, it is literally a matter of well-being and life of not the last people in the project, from the Chinese side.

And yes, even the first (well, the second, but this is the first pancake of the new China, with a fundamentally new architecture for building the project), the 919 pancake has already made money on xnumx aircraft. These are orders that are solid. General intentions and options 800+ airplanes.

And now the program has 4 flight. It seems that they jammed the main jambs and are working on certification. This is the end of the 20-beginning of the 21 year. Then immediately delivery.

[iConst]

Quote: donavi49

If he does not appear, then someone will be shot. The project oversees C and is conducted at the highest level of control. Therefore, the analysis will be tough if it does not fly.

Yes, with the Chinese, more or less understandable. I am more concerned, to put it mildly, with episodes of our drawdowns in top projects - space, aircraft, where the main thing is time.

It may happen that a way out of the schedule will result in a decrease in Russia's share in this project or other concessions.

The Chinese need such an aircraft as air, and preferably yesterday. Ali Group is going to move as much as DHL and a number of other logistics. The dragon of the Chinese economy needs big wings.

[Avior]

One thing remains: to build new production near China, presumably near the port of Vladivostok. And these are separate and considerable investments. Where will they be found and then what will Russia do immediately with two factories specializing in composite production?

And then the Chinese will carry out "import substitution", as they really like to do, and the question will arise what to do with three factories ...
Moreover, they are already planning military use for the aircraft.

[Aviator_]

And we, except for the Chinese, have no one to work for? You have to work for yourself. Unfortunately, Nabiullina thinks differently.

[donavi49]

Well, even the article indicates the capacity of 120 aircraft using the administrative resource. This is nothing. Well, that is, it even makes sense to upgrade the IL-96 which is not there for such a volume. Not to mention the production of a new aircraft. For example, A-380 (which is in its category) pulled on 300 aircraft and the project is unprofitable = closes. If Arbuz did not have a cow in the form of 320 (for example, the Hindu code factor would hit which Neo thread), it is not a fact that Arbuzik would survive after such a difficult childhood of 380.

Here the initial market size is almost 3 times smaller.

[Pavel57]

Under the conditions of the written agreements, the Chinese can throw, and if they are not registered, then God himself ordered.

[Operator]

The aircraft in its current configuration will not take off - after the Russian Federation and China fully invest in the project, the United States is expected to announce sanctions for the supply of Western-made engines. Therefore, it is necessary to invest in the quick completion of the PD-35 engine.

Finished wings and a center section will be transported from Russia to China by air.

[donavi49]

PD-35 how not to force will not appear quickly. Unfortunately.
Blocking the supply of GE engines for the civilian model is already a very tough trade war. To begin with, goods turnover will be squeezed to less than 250bn. That is, not yet soon. And maybe before PD-35 they can sit on GE.
Blocking shipments of PP for civilian aircraft is already a trade war with Europe, which the latter will not go to, even under strong pressure from the United States.

Here for the military and others - supplies will block.

[Town Hall]

Quote: donavi49

Here for the military and others - supplies will block

The supply of military equipment and dual-use to China has been banned since 89

[Rostislav]

what after do Russia immediately with two factories specializing in composite production?

Build your planes with a bigger number.

[Angrybeard]

Given the ambitions of China, I am sure the plane will be. Our people like to drag out technological projects of space and navy aviation .. plus sanctions .. well, it’s a matter of principle, and what they won’t cope with, there will be plenty of people in China to help. The main engine in an airplane and a car, and it already has an imported one. PD35 is, looking at the unhurriedness of the development of his ancestor for ms-21, they will plan for another 15 years.
But I don’t see problems with the wing. A watermelon ship runs from Hamburg to France, it’s also a distance for itself, here yes, it’s bigger but not critical for maritime transport .. again, there will be a shorter way. It is possible to organize an intermediate rebuilding on the star and send from there

[nnz226]

Russia is guaranteed to be in flight with this project! Aircraft assembly will be (at least as of today) exclusively in China! So what is it all about ?! This is how we boast that Boeing cannot build aircraft without titanium parts from the Russian Federation! Builds and sells, and we buy them, because we have done with the "Superjet", and the MS-21 will be "bringing the world market to the line and the world market" at this rate for ten years! And why then CR-929? Not RC-929 ??? It is immediately obvious: who is in charge and who is in the wings!

[Livonetc]

Here, some comrades stated above about the historically confirmed reputation of Western aircraft construction, moreover, to the peak of Russia.
Either the memory is short, or what goals they have.
Russia is, in fact, the ancestor of heavy aircraft and in the future has always been among the leaders.
So the reputation is quite enough.
And with engines, the problem is and will be solved.
And China is a very strong partner in many respects and its partnership in this project will not become an encumbrance.

[donavi49]

In general, the level was only until the 70's. Then went the lag on the rise. Again, the reasons for low competition. Capstrans would not buy. Friends will buy or receive a gift. Plus, orientation to our own transportation - where to choose from nothing and generally decides the plan.

The latest trend - Caravels with aft engine layout, in principle, kept +/- within 5 years. Well, SuperSonic = but it was a national project where it was necessary to get ahead of the capitalists, showing the superiority of the USSR in technology.

Well, then they could no longer run like the others. There was no answer to the automation level of TriStar even in 80's (when TriStar had already died). The first wide-body aircraft was late for 10 years. And he flew right away on 3 parameters:
- lack of automation = 4 human flight crew, while leaders have already begun certification for 2.
- problems with engines = not only that 4, but also non-optimal cruising modes. The result is a lot of fuel and this in itself is a coffin in any economy.
- a new revolution in the industry began, when the Il-86 just stood on the wing, 767 took off. Which actually formed the current situation in the industry. After 767, no aircraft with 4 engines had any chance. And even the angry Watermelon tried to make the 4 engine (A340) and flew very painfully, despite the image of the killed people in 0, sales did not go, just as the plane did not lobby.

By narrow-bodied workhorses, they held on to the Tu-154 until the end. When this scheme had already died, progressive projects still held and cut. For Aeroflot will gobble up, and the plane on a series, plans, awards, that's all.

It was only at the end of the 80's that they began to make a modern (and again, already obsolete conceptually at the time of the end of design - for A320 flew) aircraft. And perhaps even a normal series could - but the USSR died.

[Lexus]

Tell me 20 years ago that we would rejoice at the arrival of Chinese technologies on the Russian market - I would twist my head. And then there was the jubilation that they took the junior partner into their project. Mark my words, draw out the missing work and "kick in the ass not salty".

[NF68]

Despite all the difficulties, China through the 25-30 and in the civil aviation sector can not turn around weakly.

[Butchcassidy]

Nothing, Moscow was not built immediately. We will solve all the problems gradually

[boris]

Order tired of ranting donavi49 about backwardness
Soviet / Russian aircraft and perfection western.
Key arguments - perfect fuel economy
avionics. Take some specific numbers. In the best
times (mid-80s) medium-range TU-154
cost about 8 million domestic rubles and transported
160 passengers. Recently on one of the Russian TV channels
there was such a plot - the Latvian airline put on
Riga-Moscow line Canadian aircraft of the same class (150
passengers). In this message, the price of this
aircraft - 82 million dollars. With this price ratio
discuss fuel efficiency and number of members
the crew is somehow solid. As for advanced avionics.
This is certainly great, but the ordinary passenger is purple.
Another point. Russia has its own oil, and there is a lot of it. Exactly
therefore, in the USSR the fuel issue was not economical
so important. By the way, today the currency for the purchase
western aircraft appears to a large extent
from the sale of the same reft. It would be interesting to know
how much oil do you need to sell to buy the same Boeing 787?

[Basarev]

The main question: what is Russian in this plane? It somehow looks as if the Chinese are imposing unprofitable cooperation on us: to put the most black and costly operations on the sucker who has successfully turned up, and to profit themselves.

[iouris]

Nothing will work. The Chinese only need engines, and they will receive them.

[DimerVladimer]

the basic version of CR929-600 for 281 passengers in a three-class version, for 291 people in a two-class layout and for 405 in a single-class version.

Boeing 767-400ER class aircraft - I doubt that its orders in Russia will exceed at least 50 aircraft in 10 years.
Such passenger flow for filling one side - is produced only by Moscow airports in which passengers from all over the country are forced to make transfers.
MS-21 is the future workhorse of Russian civil aviation.
If the fall in the purchasing power of the population continues to fall (redistribution of income to the treasury), then filling flights with MS-21 can be problematic.

[Flurry]

Quote: iouris

Nothing will work. The Chinese only need engines, and they will receive them.

Receive. This is bad ? Ours will not sell, others will sell. The problem is that / many / are haunted by phantom pains according to the capabilities and achievements of the USSR. And we need a pragmatic approach, non-politicized. Engines - we will sell, wings, chassis - everything that they order. In general, we take an example from Israel, Korea, etc. For our own strategic security, there are MS-21, IL-96 new series with the same engine.

[Vladimir Borisovich]

Trying to get the wing on water is ridiculous - just look at the globe for that.

The author has problems with this very globe - but is the transportation of goods from Shanghai to Rotterdam, for example, closer / better? Ulyanovsk, I remind you, is on the shipping Volga, organizing a transshipment in the port of Novorossiysk is not a problem. And you don’t need to disassemble anything, the center section with two wings separately on the river-sea ships will quietly accommodate.

[Basarev]

Why did Russia get involved in this? It would be the other way round, to make peace in every way with the West and desperately drown China, so that it no longer dares to imagine itself as an equal to Western civilization. Historically, its place is only an extremely cheap labor force and a garbage dump of small-scale industries, which cannot be left yet, but for environmental reasons they should not be kept in Europe. China must be poor and backward.