Best Luftwaffe fighter

190

Fight lights up the clouds


"Skipper 190s on a starboard ... roger ... (rumble of bursts) ... comes in from behind ... gunner yu save ... gunner ..."
("Commander, 190 on the right, I understand ...")





But the shooter did not have time to answer the commander - in an instant the entire tail section was torn off by a cannon burst. Debris rushed to the ground: "Maidai! Mayday! Mayday! "

The Browning stuck from overheating, but those damned FW-190 didn't seem to feel hits. A deafening cannon volley - and the "fortress" went to the ground, in parts. After a few minutes it was all over. Göttingen was burning below. In the sooty sky settled the domes of American parachutes.

The sky was decorated with swastikas and black crosses. The heroes of the Luftwaffe declined, but the 50 caliber barriers blocked their path - belated Mustangs pulled up to the battle site.

A few minutes later it was all over - the domes of German parachutes hung over the destroyed Göttingen.

Twenty-nine FW-190 at the cost of losing one P-51.

Descriptions of the battle in various sources differ in the details and modifications of the aircraft, but the overall picture is unambiguous. Bombers burned the city, they were burned by the Fokke Wolves, whom the Mustangs burned.

September 1944, the 75 anniversary of those events is dedicated


The 445-I bomber group got lost, went to the wrong target, was left without cover and clashed in battle with the "assault staffels" from the 3, 4 and 300-th Luftwaffe squadrons.

Air defense squadrons equipped with a special modification of the FW-190 - "Sturmbock" ("Taran") and manned fanatics and fines. According to legend, the pilots of the “assault on staffels” who returned without victories were awaiting execution on the ground. But these are just legends.

445-I bomber group died almost at full strength. Only four of the 35 Liberators (according to other sources, 37) returned to the base, of which three could not be restored.

The ease with which the Sturmbocks defeated the Liberators shows how effective the FW-190A-8 / R8 fighters were when meeting with four-engine fortresses.

However, the speed with which the Fokke-Wolves “leaked” the Mustangs air battle raises even more questions.

Even with the unaccounted for losses from the fire of the bombers recorded as a result of the Mustang victories (there were at least six of them), the general picture of the battle over Göttingen indicates that there was something wrong with the FW-190A-8 / R8 fighters. Suspicions are confirmed throughout history and tactics for using the Sturmbocks.

The siege of "fortresses"


For those who are not used to reading long texts, the whole point is in one paragraph. A typical front-line fighter of that period was a single-engine piston aircraft with a take-off mass of about 3,5 ... 4 tons, of which up to 40% could fall on the payload (fuel, weapon, ammunition, avionics) had little chance to cope with the "flying fortress." To do this, he would need to make several visits, which in practice was unlikely. Not enough time or ammunition.

Readers can cite the raid on Schweinfurt and Regensburg (1942) as an example. But he only confirms my thesis. The Luftwaffe had to pull almost 400 Me-109G and FW-190 to the scene, which "bit" the armada of bombers throughout the raid - an hour before the target reached and on the way back. 60 “fortresses” were shot down, but how much did they take in time? B-17 managed to bomb, the target is destroyed.

Most fighters of that era were at best armed with one or two 20 mm cannons. The Germans at the height of the war appeared four-gun modifications of the Focke-Wolves, but their number was several times inferior to the Messerschmitts.

The second pair of guns on most FW-190 until the end of 1943 was comprised of MG-FF. The mass of the projectile and the combination of other characteristics of the MG-FF only vaguely resembled other artillery systems of the caliber 20 mm. In terms of muzzle energy, it was even inferior to the 12,7-mm UBS machine gun. That is why the MG-FF turned out to be light enough to be an addition to the MG-151 / 20 pair of Fokke-Wolf fighters. Or did someone believe that Uber engineers are our way to radically increase% payload?

Most of the fighters and we, and the Germans, and the allies were armed at about the same level. "Messers", "Yaks" - the one and only motor gun. Two-gun "Lavochkin" appeared only in the middle of the war.


The absolute alloy of steel and fire. ShVAK gun mounted in the collapse of the cylinders of the M-105 engine


Where can ordinary fighters take firepower to cope with the "flying fortress"?


Its wing area is like that of three Junkers, four motors, multiple duplication and dispersal of all important systems covered by 900 kg of armored plates.

Best Luftwaffe fighter


The 37-mm guns "Aerocobra" and the Yak-9T became real "exotic". Firepower was never excessive, but overly strong recoil and meager b / c made them a controversial decision in aerial combat. Only sniper fire with single shots. It is no coincidence that the potential of Aviakobra was revealed only in the USSR, where they fell into the guard regiments. They were piloted by real aces and sniper pilots who are able to "saddle" any equipment and take advantage of its hidden virtues.

The Germans had neither an “Aerocobra” nor a Yak-9T. But there were armadas of “fortresses” overhead.

The best that the Uber engineers could come up with was to replace two 20-mm guns in the outer part of the Fokke-Wulf wing with 30 mm guns with an 55 round of ammunition for the barrel. The second pair of guns in the root of the wing was left unchanged (MG.151 / 20 with the ammunition load of 250 shells).

The increase in caliber passed without significant consequences. Indeed, in terms of maneuverability and LTX, the FW-190A-8 fighter had nowhere to degrade. The creators of the MK.108 gun tried a lot, creating a compact "sawn-off shotgun" with a barrel length of only 18 calibers.

To save weight on many Fokke Wolves, the synchronized MG.131 machine guns were dismantled due to the lack of sense in the presence of such a powerful cannon weapon. However, this measure could not save the Foku from overload.

No matter how much the wolf feeds, the elephant is still bigger


The disgusting ballistics of the German 30-mm air guns were partly offset by the size of the air targets. In the same way, the problem of choosing the lead when shooting with different calibers (2x20 mm, 2x30 mm) was solved. The main thing is to get close and give a queue, filling the space with red-hot metal. Unlike the Me.262 “whistles”, due to the significant difference in the speed of spending a split second near the target (to shoot once and hide in the clouds at 800 km / h), the low-speed “Sturmbock” had enough time to draw closer from the tail , take aim and “feed” the fortress with bicaliber fire.

This beautiful plan was incomplete without one circumstance. With the indicated attack scheme, the fighter was guaranteed to fall under intensive shelling.

For WWII front-line bombers, the number of defensive "barrels" often exceeded the number of crew members (a striking example is Yu-88). As soon as the enemy left the zone of shelling one machine gun, the shooter (navigator, scorer) in a cramped cockpit had to crawl to the next, bring him into a fighting position and aim again. This circumstance greatly depreciated the importance of defensive means.

It is for this reason that 90% of air victories on the Eastern Front, both on our side and on the German side, were won by fighters from a distance of less than 100 meters. They came from the tail - and beat at point blank range. Long-range shooting was universally recognized as ineffective, on the verge of complete futility.

But everything changed at a meeting with B-17 and B-24.


B-17 and B-25 in a joint flight. In fact, the B-25 "Mitchell" is not the best example in this comparison; one of the largest twin-engine bombers, with a take-off mass greater than that of two Pe-2 or three Yu-87 dive bombers. But even he was radically inferior in size to the B-17. Eloquent evidence of how unusual the flying fortress was.

There was enough space on board to accommodate 10-11 crew members. Each sector of space was covered by one or several turrets, with its own arrows - the density of fire did not allow them to approach with impunity even for a short time.

Units owned the art of firing sniper fire in the Luftwaffe. Ballistics of German air guns also did not encourage attempts to shoot from distances of more than 150 meters. The German fighters raised for interception should have learned to “hold” at least a few hits of 12,7-mm bullets, while their cannon line from a short distance does not hit a four-engine target.

The main feature of the Sturmbock: exceptional security by aviation standards


The factory kit R-8 (Rustsatze 8) for field conversion of the FW-190A-8 into an "assault" fighter, in addition to replacing the guns, provided for 30 mm thick armored glass for the movable part of the cockpit light. Outside, the cabin was wrapped in lining made of steel, shells of cannons received additional protection. All this was mounted on the Fokke-Wool of a late modification of the A-8, which already had impressive protection:

- windshield - 57 mm;
- side front bevels of the lamp - 30 mm;
- armor ring around the air intake - 5 mm;
- armored ring around the previous ring - 3 mm;
- lower part of the hood - 6 mm;
- plate in front of the wing box MK108 - 20 mm vertically;
- plate above the wing box MK108 - 5 mm horizontally;
- lining on the sides of the cab - 5 mm;
- tiles under the compartment MG131 - 5 mm horizontally;
- tile from the previous tile to the frontal bulletproof glass - 5 mm;
- armored back - 5 mm;
- armor plate protecting the shoulders at the back - 8 mm;
- armored head - 12 mm.

The choice of the type of fighter for the role of a hunter for "fortresses", for which it made sense to carry out work to increase security. Here, the choice of FW-190 before Me-109 was obvious. The Fokke-Wulf wide 14 cylinder air-cooled motor protected the cockpit. At the same time, he had sufficient survivability to continue working if one or even several cylinders were lost. Finally, the FW-190, according to the Germans, still retained its modernization potential. Unlike the Messerschmitt, whose take-off weight was almost a ton less, and the design capabilities reached the limit back in the 1942 year.

The Germans took the heaviest 4-gun modification of the "one hundred and ninetieth", which was already inferior in maneuverability to all peers, and added more protection and weapons!

And now we’ll try to take off with all this ...


18 square meters of wing allowed the 5-ton machine to break away from the runway, but further obvious difficulties began.

During the evolution of the FW-190, many parameters were affected: weapons were added and decreased, survivability increased, engine power increased, new engines appeared that weren’t even thought about when creating this fighter (Dora project), the internal layout changed, the fuselage length was adjusted . Everything changed except the wing area. A new wing would mean the creation and launch of a series of new aircraft. The Germans could not afford this.

More than 270 kg per sq. m wing on takeoff! Even with a “combat weight” with 50% fuel remaining, the specific load on the FW-190A-8 / R-8 wing remained too large for the fighter of his era.



Later modifications of the Fokke-Wolves gained speed and altitude too slowly. The Germans did not have engines of sufficient power for the 5-ton fighters.

There were two solutions to this: bad and very bad.

A very bad decision was to leave it as it is. It’s bad to try to create at least something based on existing technologies. As a result, the Luftwaffe got the afterburner system MW-50 (Methanol-Wasser), which many military historians from aviation considered a model of German prudence.

Why does Hans stall motor


The Germans did not have their own counterpart, “Merlin” or “Double Wasp” with a turbocharger from exhaust gases, but it was not necessary either. A mixture of water and methanol was enough for 20 minutes - for the entire duration of the air battle. The power of the BMW-801D-2 in the Fokke-Wolf fighter increased by an impressive 20%, reaching hp at the peak of 2100, like the best allied fighters with air-cooled engines.

The truth about the MW-50 system is this: regardless of the tank capacity, the duration of continuous operation of the motor using the mixture could not exceed 10 minutes. But the most unpleasant thing was that the system could not be activated where it was needed most of all, at high altitudes. Where was the enemy. To launch the MW-50, it was required to drop below 5000 m. This circumstance violated the whole organization of air combat by the Germans.

These are far from all restrictions on the injection of a water-methanol mixture. Hans pressed the red button, the engine roared - and died out.

A typical example of German engineering. Future technologies.

Heavenly slug


To accelerate in a dive, competing in speed with other fighters, the FW-190A-8 / R-8 was prevented by the aerodynamic appearance, spoiled by hinged protection elements. Plus, the wing mutilated by guns. Plus a blunt fuselage with a "star" air cooling. Designers of fighters with such engines (La-5, Thunderbolt) needed to make significant efforts to achieve performance similar to the sharp-nosed Yaks, Mustangs, Spits, and other fighters with liquid-cooled engines. The designers of FW-190, at some point, simply “scored” everything ...

All FW-190A-8 could count on in aerial combat was its excellent survivability.

Even without the use of the Rüstzac-8, he could withstand several hits more than a conventional fighter. But when enemy fighters appeared in the air, he came to an end. For the Mustang, such an adversary was a slow-moving, low-maneuverable target. An analogue of a front-line bomber, also devoid of a tail defensive installation. Entering the tail after the first bend - and turn at point blank range. And no defense will save anyone who allows himself to be shot from six "Browning", spewing 70 bullets per second.

I will try to choose the right words to suit the tastes of the discerning public. Fortress hunter, Sturmbock, as well as its “base version” FW-190A-8, are not fighters in the classical sense.

All enthusiasm for their high survivability and powerful weapons (four 20-mm long-barreled (!) Guns or 2х20 + 2х30 mm) should be accompanied by an explanation: by the middle of 1944, the FW-190 ceased to be a fighter.

It was a "gunship", a flying firing point, which, before entering the ranks of the bombers, was required to be covered by "ordinary" Messerschmitts. In truth, the Me-109 had to be covered from the Allied fighters themselves, the LTX of German fighters was so backward by the end of the war.

Could the Soviet MiG-3 intercept the B-17?


The direction of evolution of the FW-190 and the fact of the appearance of "Sturmbocks" indicates the following. Discussions and comparisons of the power of fighter weapons made on the basis of their ability to intercept four-engine bombers make no sense.

Could the high-altitude MiG-3 bring down the B-17 in the event of a hypothetical conflict with the Anglo-Saxons? Or La Xnumx? Answer: the question was asked incorrectly. It is necessary to clearly distinguish tasks.

Typical weapons of WWII era fighters (1-2 guns or several machine guns) fully met their purpose. Fight against air targets, which in their take-off mass (and all related parameters) were many times different from “flying fortresses”.

The Germans created a unique fighter capable of effectively fighting four-engine bombers in the light of day. At least in the design conditions, he showed outstanding results.

And this is not some small experimental series.

The heaviest FW-190A-8 - the most famous and most massive modification of the Fokke-Wulf, released in the amount of 6655 units


Given the priorities and the main nature of the Luftwaffe tasks in the 1944 year, as well as the fact that the German aircraft 2 / 3 operated on the Western Front, the FW-190A-8 with its removable factory kits can confidently claim the role of the best German fighter.

Due to the inevitable progress and time of its appearance (the late period of the war), the Fokke-Wulf 190A-8 can also be considered the most technically advanced of the fighters created in the Third Reich. Of those that managed to take part in the hostilities.

The weakness of the Sturmbock concept was that the "fortresses" rarely appeared without escort. Due to the significant take-off mass (on take-off - 5 tons, “barrels of gasoline”) and the laminar wing, which increased fuel efficiency in long-distance raids, the escorted Mustangs learned to accompany strategic bombers along the route. In case of alarm, they could drop bulky PTBs and turn over any point in Europe into ordinary fighters, not inferior in terms of performance characteristics to their so-called. front-line colleagues.



"Storm Staffel" managed to win several high-profile victories. In addition to the massacre of Göttingen, the defeat in the sky over Leipzig in November 1944 is also known. At that time, tactics in which the 109 Messerschmitts tied an escort with Mustangs were avoided at that time. More frankly, they sacrificed themselves.

But it soon became clear that it was becoming impossible to ensure the interaction of “assault” groups and cover groups. For this, the Luftwaffe did not have enough fuel, nor airfields, nor equipment. The territory of the Reich was rapidly declining - in the last months of the war, flying out to intercept the "fortresses", one could encounter in the air the Soviet La-5.

The final evolution of the FW-190 is attempts to lighten the car. To return to her the opportunity to conduct an air battle, acting in conditions of absolute dominance of the enemy's fighter forces.

Materials have also ceased to be available for the production of protective kits. By the way, there were several variants of the Ruststats - for turning fighters into airplanes for various purposes. The most famous were the R-2 and R-8, body kits for the interceptors of the "fortresses". According to model historians, R-2 and R-8 existed only in theory. In the field, all aircraft had different arms and defenses, often the kits were not used in full force. The very concept of “Sturmböcke” appeared in the late fall of 1944, when the history of over-protected interceptors came to an end.

Finale


The Sturmbock was such one, and there was simply no one to compare it to. In aggregate, the LTX is not similar to all known fighters, but such were the priorities of the Luftwaffe.

The main drawback of Sturmbock was that he promised to protect the sky of the Reich, but did not fulfill his promise. In the era of piston engines, it was impossible to build a fighter with powerful weapons, capable of independently, without significant losses, break through to the formation of bombers through a fighter escort.

The ability to build such aircraft appeared after the war, with the development of jet engines. MiG-15 was able to fight on equal terms with any enemy, while maintaining the ability to knock down a four-engine bomber with one volley. But slow piston "fortresses" have already gone down in history.

As for the debate about the best Luftwaffe fighters, it will undoubtedly require continuation. The Germans had other interesting models of aircraft. Which of them and in what period could claim the title of best? I dare to assure, there will be many surprises.

Our news channels

Subscribe and stay up to date with the latest news and the most important events of the day.

190 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +7
    20 September 2019 18: 37
    The second pair of guns on most FW-190s until the end of 1943 consisted of MG-FF. By the mass of the projectile and the combination of other characteristics MG-FF only vaguely resembled other artillery systems of 20 mm caliber. In terms of muzzle energy, it was even inferior to the 12,7 mm UBS machine gun. That is why MG-FF turned out to be

    Some of the Fw-190A-5 aircraft were armed with 4 MG151 / 20 rapid-fire weapons with excellent ballistics and 2 MG-131, which was clearly enough to defeat the B-17 or B-24.
    At a flight altitude of loaded B-17s about 7-8 km, the aircraft retained enough mobility so as not to hang on its tail as a target, and could approach at a high speed.
    Why not pay attention to this plane? If even the Bf-109G-2 could turn off both wing engines with one go, then for the Fw-190 it was possible to shoot at the hull, diving from below. The problem was only with the training of pilots.
    1. +3
      20 September 2019 19: 05
      Some of the Fw-190A-5 aircraft were armed with 4's MG151 / 20 quick-firing weapons with excellent ballistics and 2's MG-131

      Fighter Bomber FW-190A-5 / U-12
      This is not an air fighter

      The Reich had problems in everything. US GDP exceeds Axis total GDP
      1. +1
        20 September 2019 23: 52
        Quote: Santa Fe
        US GDP exceeds Axis total GDP

        ... and all allied countries.
  2. +7
    20 September 2019 18: 48
    Great prelude, Oleg!
    Here are just "Mayday" - a marine term
    1. +8
      20 September 2019 19: 04
      I greet you Anton! Do not believe me, but the radio operator of the London airport came up with this term, already in 1923! So he comes from aviation!
      1. +3
        20 September 2019 20: 00
        Hello Sergey!
        It's a pity, I can't reproduce in the original, "I'm leaving for the sunset", the crews of the falling "librarians"
    2. +2
      20 September 2019 19: 17
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      Here are just "Mayday" - a marine term

      no, I don’t know, like sailors, but it’s definitely used by pilots
      1. 0
        22 September 2019 16: 34
        Ours do not) perhaps the stronger word is used ...
    3. AUL
      +5
      20 September 2019 19: 28
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      Here are just "Mayday" - a marine term

      Not at all! Common.
      1. +2
        20 September 2019 21: 41
        Ok guys! Do you two know how to communicate in the ICAO language, with all the local and temporary nuances?
        1. +2
          22 September 2019 01: 29
          Anton, I don’t know. what is the ICAO language now, but I was taught at the Leningrad Academy: frequency 121,5 MHz, SOS signal (MAYDAY).
          Share information: what now?
          1. +2
            22 September 2019 06: 37
            I was wrong, I publicly admit the mistake and apologize. Since 2009, frequency: 406 MHz
  3. +27
    20 September 2019 18: 51
    ,,, Americans 107 people were killed, 121 were captured, 11 pilots were killed by the inhabitants of Göttingen. The Germans lost in the air battle 18 people. And who defeated whom? It is not known how it would end, the Mustangs arrived when the Sturmbocks shot all the ammunition.
    1. +11
      20 September 2019 19: 07
      And who defeated whom?

      Those who bombed the city
      1. +6
        20 September 2019 20: 07
        Given the mentioned difference in GDP, Germany leaked the war, considering only this battle - this is a feast of victory
      2. +4
        22 September 2019 10: 35
        Oleg, how can you be happy for those who bombed civilians !!! Why are they better than the Nazis ??? For those who threw atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki ??? How can one even consider that this is generally the field of military art to kill the defenseless? Do you justify the terror and consider it an achievement ?? Well then, let's praise international terrorism ??? After all, they blew and killed so many? Are you definitely in yourself ???
        1. +1
          26 September 2019 10: 59
          According to the newsreel of Deutschenochenshau, the peaceful fascist population watched the bombing of Warsaw, London, Stalingrad ...
          Someone was happy, someone was indifferently waiting for a feature film.
          So they waited.
          1. 0
            27 September 2019 22: 00
            Firstly, in such films they showed bombing from a height while watching which it is not clear that civilians are being bombed. If the camera filmed fires and killed children from below, I don’t think that anyone would be happy from the ground !!!
            Secondly, in any country there are sadists and amateurs to watch for blood and executions! Including with us! But this is not a reason for the genocide of the whole nation !!
            Thirdly, this is not a reason to become like an enemy !!! This fascination with evil only leads to the fact that he turns into a devil himself!
            According to the written and unwritten laws of a peaceful war, you can’t kill !!! They have no weapons! Babies are innocent.
            The Japanese who dropped atomic bombs also bombed Washington or New York ???
            1. 0
              1 October 2019 09: 24
              And you can fertilize the earth with the ashes of the burnt oneself peaceful, but you can wash with soap from human soap factories and you can wear leather goods from a person peacefully, and gold can be torn and torn from people can be peaceful, but you can write it peacefully
              “When it comes to beautiful things,” Frida Kornblum writes coquettishly to August Zilber, “we women are right there.” I need thirty-seven boots, preferably low heels. Choose your best. The linen is forty-fourth in size and everything else is that size. I look forward to hearing from you a pretty bar of soap and a bottle of perfume. In addition, Hans needs suspenders, elastic bands for socks and shirt sleeves. ”A letter from relatives of German soldiers

              Parents tell the soldier Friedrich Scheidt: “They received a package from you. Five bars of soap, shaving powder and cream. We are sure that things are stolen. Still happy. You won’t get them here. And, then, our soap in wartime is real manure. ”

              Corporal Alphonse Geskemps’s sister, who lives in Duisburg, also thanks for the Soviet soap: “With all my will,” writes the maid of honor, “I can’t wash with our standard soap.” My face is stained. ”

              The bride of the soldier Joseph Costers is also pleased with the Soviet soap: “Soap and perfume are wonderful,” says the quick-witted Gretchen. - You're right, it’s a pity to use them. I will keep it for decoration, as a memory. " As a memory, it should be added about the unlucky Joseph Costers, who paid with his head for Soviet soap. The loving bridegroom, while he was still alive, spoiled the bride with not only perfumes: “I received your parcel today with pepper and nutmeg,” she informs busily. - A quarter of a pound given to mom. I have one more request for you, twine has come. ”

              The wife of a soldier, Gustav Rosenberg, is not going to twine at all. She needs furs, wool, and more. “Silk is beautiful,” she says, “and it suits me very much.” “The stockings sent in the last package (the last one), except for one pair, are excellent.”
              1. 0
                2 October 2019 20: 58
                Tan, well, all Germans cannot be considered a beast !!! You coarsen reality. There were and are decent people there! And on the basis of your letters, you smear the whole nation with dirt!
                Also, I did not understand your argument !! Do you justify the actions of Americans to destroy peaceful cities ??? Are you ready to do this ??? Have you ever killed anyone in your life ?? Shot at a man? And in children? In the old people ?? In women in a cripple ??? Tan cannot be likened to a beast! Innocent kill sin !! Children will dream at night Tan. You are talking nonsense!
                1. 0
                  7 October 2019 21: 25
                  Frostbite fanatics seized power, brainwashed the majority, intimidated / destroyed the more critical minority. The whole recipe.
                  After the war, they carried out counterpandanda, took excursions to the death camps, saying: "you are also to blame for this." Re-educated, successfully, as we see.
          2. 0
            30 September 2019 17: 58
            The fascist civilians watched
            worked in factories and factories, I’ll add. I recall the memoirs of a veteran who was captured and in 45 in a pile of corpses who gave signs of life and was saved - the Germans never threw a cracker or a potato prisoner.
            1. +1
              2 October 2019 21: 08
              And I have data on how ordinary German soldiers fed children in the villages in winter near Stalingrad! We shared a ration, played with the kids and didn't want a war. They are everywhere! But the main thing is that we are all created by God and if someone has forgotten this and fell into sin, then it is necessary to return him to good, and not ruthlessly destroy. The wise Russian philosopher Ivan Ilyin wrote about this in his work "On Resisting Evil by Force". Read at your leisure, how can you develop morally?
        2. 0
          1 October 2019 09: 16
          You would be in Khatyn on March 22, 1943, you are our compassionate.
          1. -2
            2 October 2019 21: 02
            You would be reduced to a ruthless psychiatrist!
    2. +9
      20 September 2019 19: 15
      Hi, hello to you! And the price of a bomber is much higher than the price of a fighter (mercantile of course, but ...). So, I agree with you.
      1. +2
        20 September 2019 19: 31
        And the price of a bomber is much higher than the price of a fighter

        You count the price of destroyed Gottingen before

        Before you rejoice for the Nazis in that battle
        1. +11
          20 September 2019 19: 36
          ,,, so are we talking directly about aerial combat of planes or about the bombing of cities by Americans? And what was the campus valuable militarily?
          1. 0
            20 September 2019 19: 44
            So are we talking directly about aerial combat of planes or about the bombing of cities by Americans?

            B-24 flew over Germany just like that
          2. +9
            20 September 2019 20: 27
            Exactly like Dresden.
            1. +2
              20 September 2019 20: 35
              And Hamburg! Is also almost under zero.
              1. +21
                20 September 2019 20: 48
                Hamburg is a port, they had a right. But Dresden!
                About twenty years ago, the inhabitants of Dresden decided to build a new bridge over the river, but it became uncomfortable to live in a city without this bridge. UNESCO opposed: it destroys the historic look of the city! we will exclude you from the lists of historical heritage!
                To which the townspeople answered: you in 1944 excluded us from the lists of historical heritage. And they built a bridge ...
                1. +8
                  20 September 2019 22: 04
                  Dresden is quite a train node. And by the way, if you read the memoirs of the speer, there’s a clear thought - the plants, we Germans dispersed, but the collapses of the transport network became fatal for the production of weapons
                2. +5
                  20 September 2019 23: 48
                  Dresden in Germany at that time was enviously called the "SS city".
                  The British did not get it (from a distance) with their bombers. They gradually evacuated there (fled)
                  from other cities from the constant bombing of the allies
                  the main institutions of the SS and the National Socialist Party.
                  1. +4
                    21 September 2019 00: 16
                    According to the USAF, by 1945 there were up to 110 important factories and industrial facilities in the city. Up to fifty thousand people worked at factories related to the production of military products. In particular, Dresden hosted: distributed aviation production, chemical weapons production (Chemische Fabric Goye & Company), X-ray machine manufacturer (Koch & Sterzel AG), anti-aircraft and field artillery production (Lehman), perhaps the most important optical plant in Germany (Zeiss Ikon AG), and electrical and mechanical engineering companies (eg Gebruder Bassler and Saxoniswerke). The city also had an arsenal and barracks.
                    .
                    1. 0
                      20 October 2019 02: 08
                      You are wrong! The few factories that produced military products were located on the outskirts and did not suffer, and the blow was on the historical center and residential areas. It was an action with a triple purpose: 1 - to prevent the USSR in the hands of a city with industry, 2 - to work out a system of destruction of cities such as "fire Storm", 3 - to show the USSR its power - to intimidate. I was in Dresden and saw and heard a lot of things. Of course, the Germans themselves are to blame for the war and rejoiced at the plunder of all of Europe, but all this could have fallen upon our grandfathers, fathers, and mothers.
                  2. +3
                    22 September 2019 10: 18
                    Well, this is not a reason for the carpet bombing of the city .. ours worked in Helsinki with jewelry - they bombed the port and the port, but they didn’t affect the residential areas .. the Finns thought about it ..
                    1. -2
                      22 September 2019 11: 05
                      There was just a mistake in Helsinki in the Winter War: they went to the port, but all the bombs fell with a flight to the historic city center.
                      1. +2
                        22 September 2019 11: 06
                        No, it was about the domestic, when the Finns left the war
                      2. 0
                        22 September 2019 11: 17
                        Ah, I don’t get it!
                      3. +1
                        22 September 2019 11: 18
                        and somehow slowed down that they fought with the Finns twice
                      4. +1
                        22 September 2019 11: 31
                        I slowed down .. hi
                      5. -2
                        22 September 2019 12: 02
                        It doesn’t matter, not in the first))) tongue
                      6. +1
                        22 September 2019 12: 08
                        oh, ok, which of us is without sin !!! drinks
                    2. +1
                      23 September 2019 00: 12
                      And the bombing map in the Finnish Air Defense Museum does not confirm this. All factories, the port and the railway junction remained practically intact. But the Soviet bomb, to the utter delight of the Finns, destroyed the empty Soviet embassy.
                      1. 0
                        23 September 2019 00: 13
                        In the continuation war, the Finns used German radars very effectively
                      2. 0
                        20 October 2019 02: 15
                        in 1973 or 4, I was in Leningrad and in a restaurant I got to the same table with a Finn. He was an anti-aircraft gunner. During the evening, he annoyed me with his memories "what a good, new, anti-aircraft, well-aimed, German, 88-mm gun they had and how they fired at Russian planes." Then I asked him (the conversation was in German) And what happened then? And then he almost burst into tears, telling how the Russian plane destroyed both the gun and the crew and the houses around. There is nothing to pity them. After the revolution, they destroyed the Russian inhabitants indiscriminately_red, white, neutral, man, woman, child - many thousands. So they got off quite cheaply.
        2. +9
          20 September 2019 19: 41
          And where did you find words of joy in me? Especially for the Nazis, and not for the Nazis?!?!
          1. -12
            20 September 2019 19: 55
            You are looking for a reason to recognize the Nazis as winners in that battle, obviously this thought brings you joy

            But try not to notice the obvious - a bombed city, because b-24 risked for a reason
            1. +12
              20 September 2019 20: 01
              And let's just like this: I compared the price of a bomber and a fighter. Sergey compared the level of losses in that battle. Where is RECOGNITION AND JOY?! Where?
              1. -14
                20 September 2019 20: 21
                And here we go: I compared the price of a bomber and a fighter

                Why did you do this? What did you want to prove this?

                What Natsik won
                1. +9
                  20 September 2019 20: 29
                  Oh! Sorry of course, but you wrote an article, it is being discussed, comments are coming. I’ll add from myself, the article is not bad. But what are you doing now?
                  1. +13
                    20 September 2019 20: 32
                    Phil77
                    Today, 21: 29

                    Oleg hangs up labels, and he himself, it turns out then from his words, "drowns" the Americans.
                    1. +10
                      20 September 2019 20: 36
                      And I also stopped catching the logic of the author!
                    2. +5
                      20 September 2019 20: 51
                      This is at least logical, we were allies with the amers and these attacks were beneficial for us

                      “I welcome the development of the bombing of Essen, Berlin, Kiel and other industrial centers in Germany. Every strike of your aircraft on the life centers of the Germans meets a lively response in the hearts of many millions of people in our country. ”
                      - I. Stalin, April 7 1943
                      1. 0
                        22 September 2019 10: 44
                        You are thereby trying to steal part of our sole victory over the Germans in favor of the Americans !!! If you do not understand this, then you are short-sighted, if you understand, then cunning!
            2. +12
              20 September 2019 20: 33
              "Natsik", "fascists", "antifa" "... We will measure the world in terms of the youth of the early XNUMXs, or are we still smarter and more mature people ???
              1. +7
                20 September 2019 20: 39
                I agree! Calling a seasoned enemy-Natsik? Not quite right, to put it mildly and censorily! Here I personally think so.
                1. -1
                  20 September 2019 20: 57
                  You wrote in your comment above that the Nazis are not fascists. Therefore, I began to call them Natsik, I thought it would be more pleasant for you. sorry
                2. +11
                  20 September 2019 20: 58
                  That's not the point, Sergey!
                  It's sad that the author slides into the discussion to the lexicon of the "kid's bazaar".
            3. 0
              22 September 2019 10: 42
              Oleg since Bismarck, the German military school was much higher than English and American! I don’t have joy from this, but what joy do you have from the victories of the Americans ??? Are you an American?
        3. +10
          20 September 2019 19: 45
          Before you rejoice for the Nazis in that battle
          ,, Why are you so Oleg? I expressed my opinion that according to the results of this air battle between American and German planes, the Germans won the victory.
          1. +5
            20 September 2019 20: 17
            according to the results of this air battle between American and German planes, the victory remained with the Germans.

            It could be true if the B-24 flew in to fight the Sturmbocks. But their task was to bomb the city, and you diligently miss this moment.

            Air combat is only part of the operation
            1. +14
              20 September 2019 20: 22
              the task was to bomb the city,
              , the motor plant of the company "Henschel" in Kassel, their task was. A defended air defense, not a university town. So they did not complete their combat mission.
              1. -9
                20 September 2019 20: 35
                Bombers flew in to throw bombs. And they dropped them. The fact that the 445 group (Kassel bombed several groups that day) lost its course and was bombed by Göttingen has nothing to do with the actions of the German interceptors

                Are you diligently looking for a reason to recognize the Germans as winners, are you a neo-Nazi?
                1. +9
                  20 September 2019 21: 05
                  No, damn it, Oleg! We are not neo-Nazis! We are for the historical truth.
                2. +13
                  20 September 2019 21: 47
                  Curved logic ....
                  You can also:
                  The author, you have in your article in all its glory a Nazi plane against the backdrop of burning allies - Are you a neo-Nazi?
                3. +14
                  21 September 2019 00: 05
                  Are you diligently looking for a reason to recognize the Germans as winners, are you a neo-Nazi?


                  Oleg, are you serious? If this is not a "joke of humor", then such a passage does not honor you and does not add respect.
                  I read your article with pleasure, but in the comments you managed to pour a bucket of slops into a barrel of good wine.
                  I sincerely regret it.
                4. +4
                  21 September 2019 04: 35
                  Quote: Santa Fe
                  Are you diligently looking for a reason to recognize the Germans as winners, are you a neo-Nazi?

                  This label inspired the memory of another stamp, the so-called. "Bolshevik hordes". And how many, excuse me, were there members of the CPSU (b) among the millions of Soviet soldiers?
                  Along the way, in the middle of the 90's I had the chance in Germany to meet a German veteran who was captured during the Great Patriotic War and who was in the Soviet Union before the beginning of the 50. Clearly not at the resort.
                  Nevertheless, with great sympathy (and even broken, but still in Russian), he spoke of Russian people, but, Heinz said, your bosses were very strict.
                  Not being a fan of Hitler, I will say that we all feel uncomfortable when we are demonized in the West. But by demonizing ordinary German soldiers, presenting them all without exception as sadists, Nazis and fascists, we are likening the "democratic" and "liberal" media, depicting the USSR and Russia as the devil of hell.
                  You need to be able to separate flies from cutlets, a colleague. Previously, it was believed that the Germans burned Khatyn, and today it turned out that Bendera.
                  1. +1
                    21 September 2019 04: 49
                    Quote: Comrade
                    But how many, excuse me, were among the millions of Soviet soldiers members of the CPSU (b)?

                    Judging by these data, a lot, every fourth
                    1. +1
                      22 September 2019 02: 35
                      Quote: svp67
                      Judging by these data, a lot, every fourth

                      Thanks for the table, alas, apparently, the data presented there is incorrect, since the "Number of members of the CPSU (b)" also includes candidates for members of the CPSU (b).
                      Take the 01.01.43 status data from another source and compare it with the figure from the table.

                      As you can see, both there and there appear over 1 930 000 people, but these almost two million are not only members of the CPSU (b), and members of the CPSU (b) И candidates for membership of the CPSU (b). How many members of the CPSU (b) were there is unknown.
                      The Red Army belonged to the second group of the first category of candidates, therefore, for them, the seniority was established for at least 6 months.
                      1. 0
                        22 September 2019 13: 22
                        Quote: Comrade
                        As you can see, there and there are over 1 people, but these almost two million are not only members of the CPSU (b), but members of the CPSU (b) and candidates for members of the CPSU (b). How many members of the CPSU (b) were there is unknown.
                        The Red Army belonged to the second group of the first category of candidates, therefore, for them, the seniority was established for at least 6 months.

                        A colleague, a "candidate for party membership" is almost certainly a future party member (whoever has caught that "glorious" time, he knows). So it is absolutely correct to add both categories in this case.
                      2. 0
                        23 September 2019 07: 36
                        Quote: Comrade
                        Take the 01.01.43 status data from another source and compare it with the figure from the table.

                        Table for May 1945. And the fact that the numbers are similar, so you need to understand the specifics of the Red Army. Members of the CPSU (b), including candidates, were mostly officers. There was such an unspoken principle that an officer, not being a candidate or a member of the CPSU (b), could not be appointed to a position equal to the company commander. Since in this position the officer, according to his duties, was to lead the party component of the unit
                5. 0
                  21 September 2019 22: 35
                  Are you diligently looking for a reason to recognize the Germans as winners, are you a neo-Nazi?

                  And for what purpose are you still interested? :))))
                6. 0
                  22 September 2019 10: 48
                  You are the hanger of labels and labels! With this approach, you need to participate in discussions at the brewery in the label shop and not at the military forum!
            2. 0
              22 September 2019 10: 46
              The conclusion is simple! If the Germans had more airplanes and time, they would have slapped the Americans and their aircraft !!
        4. +8
          20 September 2019 20: 09
          Bad thesis, Oleg!
          Either we view the battle as the battle of the Marathon, or we are guided by the national paradigm.
          1. +7
            21 September 2019 00: 01
            Hello Anton hi , that’s how it turns out in life, all my life I thought that this plane was invented by two guys: Focke together with Wulf, but it turns out that he was completely invented by a man named TANK!
            And, which is characteristic, he is not shy of his Tank, not like some. smile drinks

            PS The author started a strange polemic here, for the first time I run into this. Well answered the colleague KERMET above.
        5. +6
          20 September 2019 21: 46
          Quote: Santa Fe
          You count the price of destroyed Gottingen before

          Strictly speaking, the price of this bombing was zero, at least militarily. After all, as far as I remember, the blow was dealt wrongly.
        6. +2
          21 September 2019 00: 26
          Are you sure that it was destroyed?
          Modern guides claim the opposite - that he was not bombed at all
          http://ermakvagus.com/Europe/Germany/gettingen-rus.html
          On the other hand, while I was in Würzburg, it also did not occur to me how he suffered during the war.
        7. -1
          22 September 2019 10: 38
          Yes, Americans defeated Göttingen seniors !!! Super achievement! It would not have been at the Fritz of the Eastern Front, they would have carried out amers with their huge runway into the sea! As we are doing now, despite the fact that our runway is much lower than the American!
          1. 0
            20 October 2019 02: 23
            I was in Germany in 2010 and saw hills on the outskirts of the town bombed with bombs, up to 4-5m in diameter. The German accompanying us said that this city was bombed 5 times and each time bombs fell 1-2 km into the hills past the city. And in the literature I met info about the fact that the Americans bombed very inaccurately and often the bombs fell even 3-5 km from the target.
    3. -4
      20 September 2019 19: 21
      Quote: bubalik
      And who defeated whom?

      After all, the article says:
      Bombers burned the city, they were burned by the Fokke Wolves, whom the Mustangs burned.
      Quote: bubalik
      Mustangs arrived when the Sturmbocks shot all the ammunition.

      Yes, they had against the Mustangs and with ammunition no chance
      1. +4
        20 September 2019 20: 10
        Mustang fighting is not their profile
        1. -2
          20 September 2019 20: 15
          Quote: KERMET
          Mustang fighting is not their profile

          as the saying goes:
          and have
          this is not the 41st year
  4. 0
    20 September 2019 19: 03
    the fact that 2/3 of German aviation operated on the Western Front

    With numbers on this statement, not unfounded.
    So far, it was known that the main number of aircraft was on the Eastern Front, where they were systematically thinned out. But you apparently have other data, voice it to the studio.
    1. +8
      20 September 2019 19: 21
      But you apparently have other data, voice it to the studio.

      September 1943 - Oct 1944
      During this period, a total of 8600 warplanes were “lost” in the east, while 27 060 were “lost” in the west; the ratio of western “losses” to eastern “losses” was 27 060 / 8600 = 3,41 to unity.

      1. 0
        20 September 2019 19: 41
        , while 27 were "lost" in the west;

        Is there a breakdown by aircraft class?
        It’s just that the data of 1946 and 1970 can differ dramatically, taking into account propaganda.
        1. +2
          21 September 2019 00: 29
          The study was carried out in the GDR
      2. +5
        21 September 2019 11: 51
        Here it is .... What the author has posted, a tablet, he knows ... What to do with it ....
        Why throw another fake?
      3. +4
        22 September 2019 10: 55
        Why do you have data in English ??? Is this not an attempt even then to rewrite the history of the Americans ??? And where did the Germans get such 27000 forces on the western front at 43 ?? When the main threat came from the east !!! Forgot who took Berlin !!! This is a puncture Oleg !! You are not Fushington's agent!
        1. +1
          22 September 2019 13: 36
          Quote: Alexey G
          And where did the Germans get such 27000 forces on the western front at 43 ??

          Really! - Oh, yes ?!
          "Stuka" to the 43rd "in the West" was almost never used, the Germans produced less than 25 thousand other bombers (with "Stuks" - under 1936), fighters (for the entire time since 50) - about 1943 thousand. It turns out that the Allies in 44 ... 1944 (that is, in North Africa and Italy, since in Europe active operations began only in June 1) "sent to the forefathers" 3/XNUMX of all combat aircraft produced in Reich in its entire short history?
          1. 0
            22 September 2019 15: 11
            "sent to the forefathers" 1/3 of all combat aircraft produced in the Reich in its entire short history

            Yes, it does. In previous years there was no one to shoot down.
            In 1943-44 Germans released more combat aircraft than in all previous years of the Reich
            1. 0
              22 September 2019 15: 13
              "The numbers are in the studio!"
              1. 0
                22 September 2019 15: 16
                Open secret
                1. 0
                  22 September 2019 15: 30
                  Quote: Santa Fe
                  Open secret

                  Well, look!
                  Until 1943, about 32,5 thousand combat aircraft were produced. As is commonly believed, the losses for this period were not very large, so much more remained ...
                  In 1943 - 20,6, 1/3 more than in 1942. Not a revolution (see statistics of the USSR, Britain and the USA).
                  In 1943-44 Germans released more combat aircraft than in all previous years of the Reich

                  "Released" does not mean that they were all shot down: Until June 6, 1944, there were only three theaters of air warfare in the West: the Battle of Britain (a very limited period), the war in North Africa (what was going on in the air?) and the landing of the Allies in Italy (there were many Luftwaffe?).
                  It turns out that for the period June ... October 1944, the allies on the western front in Europe should be fill up about 20 thousand German planes. This is real?
                  Yes! Nothing happened on the Eastern Front at this time: the Germans didn’t lose planes at all or lost very little.
                2. 0
                  22 September 2019 17: 06
                  American lies. The Germans themselves write that minimal forces were allocated to fight the United States !! Or did not stand out at all.
  5. +1
    20 September 2019 19: 12
    Ours tried to do something similar - IL-2I but for 10 thousand only throw it with a trampoline
    1. +4
      20 September 2019 20: 01
      Fundamentally different tasks - a cover fighter in the ranks of attack aircraft and a fighter of high-altitude heavy bombers. They are generally different.
      1. +6
        20 September 2019 20: 11
        One task is a fighter bombers.

        State Testing Act of September 28.09.1943, XNUMX:

        "
        6) IL-2I aircraft can be used to deal only with certain types of enemy bombing and transport aircraft, which have relatively low speeds (He-111, Fw-200, Ju-87, Ju-52) at altitudes below 4000 m, however aircraft Fw-200s can evade IL-2 attacks and climb due to better climb rates. IL-2I can attack the faster bombers Ju-88 and Do-215 only by chance, since the latter, due to their greater speed, always have the opportunity to get away from IL-2I.

        7) The Il-2I aircraft cannot actively combat enemy fighters ... "
        1. +3
          20 September 2019 20: 15
          Did not know. I just read for a long time that they were initially remade in connection with the fact that attack aircraft often fought without fighter cover, and at times successfully fought with fighters, so they decided to finish it.
          But there still one thing remains - on the Eastern Front ALWAYS flew low. In addition to high-altitude scouts, but how many there were ... And they were not really needed - in our area the clouds are VERY low, especially in the cold season
  6. +4
    20 September 2019 19: 20
    Somehow everything is very "chaotic", I didn't catch some general idea. Sorry... hi
    1. +6
      20 September 2019 20: 15
      A dogfight, in those days, in general, is very messy. The author reflected this very well at the beginning of the article.
      1. +1
        20 September 2019 20: 38
        Maybe I'm wrong. I apologized. From myself, honestly. Sorry if I offended anyone. feel
        1. +3
          20 September 2019 21: 13
          All is well, normal discussion.
  7. +3
    20 September 2019 19: 41
    She did not understand where the MiG-3 was mentioned.
    1. +2
      21 September 2019 00: 01
      Quote: Pavel57
      She did not understand where the MiG-3 was mentioned.

      Well, this is the author’s manner, he writes a paragraph, poses a question, and forgets about it, through a line. It seems that the question has been posed, but who needs an answer to it?)
  8. +2
    20 September 2019 19: 49
    The author writes)
    By the mass of the projectile and the combination of other characteristics MG-FF only vaguely resembled other artillery systems of 20 mm caliber. In terms of muzzle energy, it was even inferior to the 12,7 mm UBS machine gun.

    Only the machine gun UBS 17400J (bullet 49g, 850m / s), and the FF -20000J. (Shell 115g, 590m / s)
    1. +3
      20 September 2019 20: 09
      115g - armor-piercing shell that was not particularly useful in aerial combat

      The main MG-FF was 90 fragmentation
      1. +3
        20 September 2019 20: 27
        Quote: Santa Fe
        115g - armor-piercing shell that was not particularly useful in aerial combat
        The main MG-FF was 90 fragmentation

        Oleg, let's not "play up") - at 92g. high-explosive M-geschoss speed 700m / s and energy 22500dzh. Regarding the ineffective 115 g. Armor-piercing projectile, there were both fragmentation-incendiary and armor-piercing incendiary wink
        1. -4
          20 September 2019 20: 46
          Then calculate the energy of the UBS with other, heavier types of cartridges.

          I read somewhere that the muzzle energy of UBS was higher than MG-FF, and I remember this funny fact. As your calculations show, this is not far from the truth.

          Oerlikon mg-ff was an outsider among 20 mm systems, in terms of combat value it could only compete with machine guns
  9. +4
    20 September 2019 20: 14
    Air defense squadrons equipped with a special modification of the FW-190 - "Sturmbock" ("Taran") and manned fanatics and fines. According to legend, the pilots of the “assault on staffels” who returned without victories were awaiting execution on the ground. But these are just legends.

    What other fanatics and fines???? The author mentioned legends and immediately twisted his own.
    Only volunteers. Who is interested in googling Hans-Gunther von Kornatsky and Sturmstaffel
    1. +2
      21 September 2019 00: 00
      Quote: Engineer

      What other fanatics and fines ???? The author mentioned legends and immediately twisted his own.

      And behind Das ist Zagrad. Squad from the Gestapo flew?
    2. +2
      21 September 2019 22: 43
      Quote: Engineer
      What other fanatics and fines ????

      Fanatics are just fully included in the category of volunteers, and of course we are talking about "fines", i.e. not penal boxers in the Soviet sense, but pilots who had disciplinary penalties, who were ordered to attack the formations by a special order (many eyewitnesses of the battles perceived attacks on the wall of "fortresses" as an attack on the embrasures of pillboxes; fighting fighters was considered safer!).
  10. -5
    20 September 2019 20: 28
    The article is good, easy to read and with interest.
    The author was able to well reflect the inefficiency of German aviation weapons in World War II.
  11. +4
    20 September 2019 20: 30
    The article lacks balance. Only the technical aspect. Not a word about the organization of the "assault staff", about the tactics (attack by sixes in a dense formation). By the way, how many people know that the pilots of "sturmboks" sometimes rammed?
  12. +1
    20 September 2019 20: 41
    The best Luftwaffe fighter is the non-219 and the pre-335 is a great introduction of all new technologies for piston aviation of the Reich. I do not take Soviet and allied aviation. Well, the Dora was not bad.
    1. +2
      20 September 2019 23: 58
      Quote: Ryaruav
      pre-335 is a great introduction of all new technologies for piston aviation of the Reich I do not take Soviet and Union aviation well, and the dora was not bad

      I bought a pre-assembled Do-335 model, opened the box, and, frankly, my eyes were on my forehead. The usual "messer" next to him is somehow lost in space. Why is there Messer, Tempest next to him, about nothing ...
  13. +8
    20 September 2019 20: 49

    Fokke Wolf FW-190 Fighter hi
  14. +1
    20 September 2019 21: 48
    I would like to propose to consider (of course, purely hypothetically) the situation of the attack of the Allied fighters (both the Red Army Air Force and the RAF + US Air Forse) building heavy bombers .. Let not Ta-400 but for example Ne-277 or Me-264 and Ju- 488 ??? How did Spitfire (2x20 mm + 7.7 mm) or Yankees (6-8x12.7 mm) and even the Soviets (1,2x20 or 1x37mm + 2x12.7mm) stop phalanxes from 200-500 such ... hypothetical fortresses ??? And glory ... Aloizych that such an option .. didn’t happen but ... what were the chances to stop ... their existing fleet of Allied Air Force fighters ???
  15. +5
    20 September 2019 22: 01
    Here I thought again, and who at the then level of technology could stop the air attack of the STATES in 1943-45 similar to the attack on Germany ?. Yes, no one.
    Therefore, I do not really understand the claims to German aircraft. Where they could not, no one could ever.
    And so the Germans are worthy, though not super. The "thin" one is the best at the beginning of the war and competitive at the end. "Foka" started briskly, filled the niche of stormtroopers, in the "Dora" modification it is a serious opponent for anyone. "Schwalbe" is very good if you consider it not in isolation, especially after the results of 45 years, but as an aircraft of high-quality amplification, which it was supposed to be.
  16. +2
    20 September 2019 22: 25
    On the Fw-190A8, all 4 guns were mg-151/20. And yes, they were not suitable for horizontal maneuvering combat, because by the middle of the war everyone realized that it was outdated and inferior to the vertical one. The topic of "miningeshos" has not been disclosed. Yes, at high altitudes, all German engines (both liquid and air) were inferior to the American ones due to the lack of a sane supercharger, which means the Messer is the same "sucks" as the Foker, only less multipurpose. Why, all the aviation sucks, compared to the American one.
  17. +7
    20 September 2019 22: 59
    1. "Librarator" is not a "fortress".
    2.
    To accelerate in a dive, competing in speed with other fighters, the FW-190A-8 / R-8 was prevented by the aerodynamic appearance, spoiled by hinged protection elements.
    - "hinged" protection elements were hidden under the skin. And the aerodynamic appearance could not be spoiled. Oleg, well, you should at least look at the A8 / F8 booking scheme in Google, since you have no more serious sources.
    The article is another collection of anecdotes and legends. "100500-". It's a pity that you can't minus under the article.
    1. +8
      21 September 2019 00: 08
      We will discuss all the chatter in order:
      1. FV-190A - aircraft designed to counter the Spitfire-Mark5 in 1941. And he successfully outplayed Spitfire in almost all respects. But the main batch of air war occurred in 1944. And for that time 3 years is a lot ....
      2. Due to the inability of MASSOVO to produce turbochargers, the Luftwaffe did not have high-altitude engines.
      3. Do not forget that they also had an eastern front, where the main battles were fought below 5000 meters, because they were tied to attack aircraft of the Il-2 type.
      4. So it turns out that the medium-high FV-190 and Me-109 were supposed to fight both at the ground and at altitude. And it so happened that they were overtaken by Yak-3 \ La-5FN at the ground, and at an altitude of over 6 km - P-47, P-38 and P-51.
      5. And once again we do not forget that on the western front in 1944 German reptilians fought in the minority, island and transatlantic reptilians had an overwhelming numerical superiority.
      6. With this balance of power, the difference in the performance characteristics of the fighters did not have any decisive significance. For example, the Germans shot down 50 planes per day at the cost of losing 50, but the Americans could afford such losses, renewing the losses. One fortress was shot down - tomorrow they flew 2, shot down 2 - flew 4, shot down 4 flew 8. But the Germans could not deploy 4 planes instead of 2 shot down, put up only two, and as a result they collided in battle - 2 against 4.

      Regarding the humanitarian bombing of cities. Do not forget that reptilians thoughtfully, the first bombs destroyed the water intake station / water supply and fire station to make it difficult to extinguish fires. Moreover, regardless of which city was bombed - Dresden, Stalingrad, Gorky, Kiel or Caventry. The goal was fairly typical - to destroy as many of the population as possible.
      1. 0
        21 September 2019 18: 43
        Almost everyone had DRIVE turbochargers from an aircraft engine! But only the USA had turbochargers working on a drive from EXHAUST GASES. In the USSR, with 4 motor
        ПЕ -8 In the case there was a 5 engine that worked only on a supercharger!
        1. +1
          21 September 2019 21: 21
          Either a DRIVE centrifugal supercharger (PTsN) or a TURBO supercharger. There can be no DRIVE TURBO supercharger. A turbocharger is a supercharger driven by a turbine. Your cap. hi
          1. 0
            21 September 2019 22: 41
            They came up with drive turbochargers. True, just recently. Hybrid called.
            1. 0
              22 September 2019 05: 30
              Such a speech was not about "quite recently", but about "then."
    2. 0
      21 September 2019 00: 36
      ... "Librator" is not a "fortress".
      2.

      But does the author claim this?
      1. +4
        21 September 2019 06: 21
        Is not it so?:

        Deafening cannon salvo - and "fortress"Went to the ground in parts. After a few minutes it was all over. Gottingen burned downstairs
        ...
        445-I bomber group died almost at full strength. From 35 "Liberators”(According to other sources, 37) only four returned to the base, of which three were not subject to recovery.

        The ease with which the Sturmbocks defeated the "Liberators", Shows how effective the FW-190A-8 / R8 fighters were when meeting with four-engine fortresses.


        1. 0
          21 September 2019 07: 13
          Wrongly asked a question
          The word "Fortress" is used here as a common name for all large bombers. Own "flying fortress" is used by the author in the text specifically to b-17
          1. +2
            21 September 2019 07: 52
            Here I am to that. The author incorrectly used the common name "fortress" in relation to the "Librarians". And how the author then knocks down four-turret bombers of the Allies under the term "fortress" - on his conscience.
  18. +2
    20 September 2019 23: 57
    Why "the best", why "the best"? Apparently, hands are asking for pen, pen for paper ... The author is not a contemporary of Hitler. Where does the original material come from? From the forest, obviously.
  19. +2
    21 September 2019 00: 32
    More about this fight.
    https://topwar.ru/101345-bylo-delo-v-gettingene.html
    By the way, he returned not 4, but 6, two cars got on another airport
  20. +8
    21 September 2019 05: 47
    in fact, we can say that no one has fulfilled his task
    bombers did not bomb the assigned target
    German interceptors allowed bombing of the city
    American escort fighters failed to protect ward bombers
    this is the truth, everything else is from the evil one
  21. -2
    21 September 2019 22: 52
    Oleg, congratulations on an interesting and balanced article about aviation. I like it. Last time I asked you not to write about aviation, I take my words back.
    1. +1
      22 September 2019 08: 29
      Thank you for your feedback. I try to be interesting
  22. +3
    21 September 2019 23: 10
    Quote: mikle1999
    if you read the memoirs of a speer,

    He wrote about the loss of valuable ore basins.
    According to his calculations, Germany was supposed to bend back in 1944.

    Historical perverts sadly come up with stories about the need to destroy Dresden with tens of thousands of civilians because of a handful of SS men, or the presence of a railway junction, they deliberately mislead us.
    This is the tactic of everyone who wants to rewrite history.
    The inhabitants of Dresden have a core:
    "But Dresden!
    About twenty years ago, the inhabitants of Dresden decided to build a new bridge over the river, but it became uncomfortable to live in a city without this bridge. UNESCO opposed: it destroys the historic look of the city! we will exclude you from the lists of historical heritage!
    To which the townspeople replied: in 1944 you excluded us from the lists of historical heritage. And they built a bridge ... "
    [i] [/ i]

    I am sure that on the anniversary of the Great Victory there will be vile
    reports, articles in newspapers and on Internet resources whose purpose is to pervert History, to discredit the Red Army and the Russian people.
  23. 0
    22 September 2019 05: 48
    If the conversation about terms has already entered ...
    What Anglo-Saxons are we talking about?
    According to official polls conducted in the United States, 70 percent of the white population consider themselves descendants of the Germans.
    70 percent ... of Russians in the states of about 25 million, this is about 7-8 percent of the white population.
    Plus the descendants of the Irish, French, Poles ... and other "Swedes".
    And how many, among the white population of the USA, are the descendants of the British, the so-called Anglo-Saxons?
    At best, ten percent.
    A fun country, the vast majority of the white population are Germans who speak spoiled English.
    1. 0
      22 September 2019 08: 11
      What Anglo-Saxons are we talking about, in order:

      1. The USA is a country founded by immigrants from England (founding fathers George Washington, etc.), which were based on British traditions and worldview. Like Britain, the United States is proud of its isolation from the rest, they consider it useful, from all countries of Europe and Asia they consider only England to be their best ally and equal partner (support and cooperation in all areas, including military). America not without reason considers itself and in fact is with the successor of the British Empire

      2. If you look at any news, investigations, some high-profile stories from across the ocean - all high-ranking participants, top managers, officers, prosecutor judges, some high posts will be held by British surnames. There are no random people with the names rasputin among them.

      All these are descendants of white immigrants, mainly from foggy albion. Which still honor the traditions of their ancestors. Wasp (white anglosaxon protestant) - The privileged, most affluent and educated stratum of society. The second class is the descendants of immigrants from western and southern Europe, who have completely adopted the British language and worldview
      1. +2
        22 September 2019 11: 05
        You read the origin of the word Sax and English Oleg !!! These are all the only Germanic peoples that the Romans called the Germans !!! You do not understand that the Germans and the British are both Russians and Belarusians!
        1. 0
          22 September 2019 14: 00
          Quote: Alexey G
          You read the origin of the word Sax and English Oleg !!! These are all the only Germanic peoples that the Romans called the Germans !!! You do not understand that the Germans and the British are both Russians and Belarusians!

          Alexey, not really!
          Indeed, politically Britain once upon a time found itself "under the Germans" - the very Angles and Saxons. But then there were the Normans - the entire medieval (and modern) history of Britain is connected with them (and again - this is only the top, the elite).
          But the mass of the British are ethnic Celts (up to 2% of the British are carriers of R70b, even more Scots, Welsh and Irish).
          1. 0
            22 September 2019 17: 13
            The Angles and Saxons sailed from the territory of the Rhine Lamansch and subdued the Celts, whom they pressed. Normans also belong to the Germanic tribes !! Read it.
        2. -1
          22 September 2019 14: 48
          Well, in fact, we have the concept of wasp, with a very unambiguous meaning and very real features of life
          1. +1
            22 September 2019 17: 19
            Better think about why the Germans let the British go home after Dunkirk! And think about why the United States did not want to open a second front for so long! And why finally the Germans did not destroy France like the USSR. And most importantly, the rest of the Germans willingly surrendered to the Allies and not to us? Is there a version ??? These are relatives! And we are strangers to them and your creeps Oleg in favor of amers stupidity!
            You cheer for our enemies! The Germans, those with whom we fought twice, are actually closer to us, but we were pitted by cunning shavers and are now pitted, and we have a lot in common with the Germans!
            Our kings had German blood! The Germans are hard workers like us! They are honest and not such hypocrites as their cunning relatives of the arrogant Saxons! They are a land civilization like us. We have common interests, but we need to be friends with them against the United States and Britain!
            1. 0
              22 September 2019 18: 11
              The Germans are hard workers like us! They are honest and not such hypocrites as their cunning relatives of the arrogant Saxons! They are a land civilization like us. We have common interests, but we need to be friends with them against the United States and Britain!

              Hahaha, Alexei, well, you give

              Neither one nor the other wants to look at us, we are savages for them. the Angles and Germans have their own cabal and they will not let anyone in there. They began to develop years on 500 earlier than us. Oxford - 11 century, in the 17 century, states were already built on the other side of the ocean. All the mechanisms and traditions of their society were formed and polished for hundreds of years, and then we wonder why they are so well organized, why everything is according to the law, why the police work so clearly, why their oligarchs live and give others life - their society is still hundreds of years old back it was convinced that if you steal everything and leave nothing, then such a society will not survive for a long time ...

              Just because Germans and Angles are alike does not mean that they are one. The United States was founded by the British and for the British, and they all are customized to their own standards (and ACE does not mind, because the best structure of society has not yet been found)
              1. 0
                22 September 2019 18: 54
                HA HA HA is a strong argument! But here Brzezinski said to break away from the Russians Ukraine! And I will say in response: "Break off Germany from the Germans !!!!" And then we will weaken them so much that they will lose their power !! The Slavs also had a great and interesting culture and our merchants and industrialists were also no more stupid than they were!
                Oxford - 11th century, in the 17th century, states were already being built on the other side of the ocean. All mechanisms and traditions of their society were formed and polished for hundreds of years.

                Yes! And this is because we restrained the Mongols and did not allow them to burn Europe! But it was necessary! But we are kinder than them!
                The Germans and the Angels are not just alike - this is one blood, one gods, one language group!
                The USA was formed not only by the British, and certainly not for England! They spit on her! They fought against the British! The United States was formed by bandits, schemers, fugitive Protestants, Jews and a whole bunch of other nations!
                because the best structure of society has not yet been found
                This is a lie! This is Fukuyama-style propaganda! Their lie is that they do not seek truth, but seek power !! And their globalization arose after having paired our VKS in Syria, about our military experts in Venezuela, on our sailors in Crimea! They stood up and cannot move forward through our militias in Donetsk and Lugansk. They will stand there because they cannot pass us SLAVAN! The best part of them is RUSSIAN.
            2. -1
              22 September 2019 18: 20
              The Germans are poor relatives for the British, they always had less population, resources and opportunities. And the Germans are irreparably behind

              If we really want to borrow something from the West, then we must at least not be equal to the German Holodrozhites. Germanization of Russia in the type of RI of the times of Paul I, such a thing is not necessary. In fact, the leaders among the German nations are the Anglo-Saxons, they have the most sound ideas and advanced developments in everything

              Moreover, as I said, for us All of them are not brothers. About the British and wasp-s understandable. The Germans came and killed 27 millions, generally excellent bros. And in the historical perspective - the eternal wits
              1. 0
                22 September 2019 19: 36
                Yes, you are a true pet of the 90s Oleg! All come to America! But shame on you? Yes, the Germans united state arose later than France and Britain but they are the creators of a great culture. Tops of philosophy, music, poetry, romanticism! What are they behind ?? In the robberies of Indians and Africans? In the killings of the Indians? In excessive pragmatism ?? In the tricks of theft and piracy ?? YES Germans are younger poor brothers, but they are more talented than their English rivals! They are richer spiritually! But since their own brothers tried to rot all their history, this is our chance to tear them out of their influence! And there is nothing for us to learn from the English !! There is a spiritual void! Vacuum! One instinct of self-preservation and survival! Nothing Christian!
                Learn meanness? Cheating? Insidiousness? School of snakes? Oleg learn it yourself! They will historically fail and you along with them! Damn Jesuits!
                1. 0
                  20 October 2019 02: 39
                  The Jesuits are almost fluffy guys compared to these ... shavers.
              2. -1
                22 September 2019 19: 44
                That's exactly what they killed, and who pushed them there carefully ?? Not bloodthirsty British and Americans ?? Where else could the army go! They almost lost their country! It is this historical experience that should finally make them understand that you need to stop listening to America and think for yourself and also be friends with Putin!
            3. 0
              26 September 2019 00: 34
              The Anglo-Saxon branch of civilization on earth is just a reflection of the powerful reptilian CC. Characteristics are simple
              - the desire to destroy their own kind in all kinds of technical ways. in the movies and in life. universal ownership of weapons and a culture of constant armed confrontation in a society inside and out.
              - a language without sexual differentiation - English - that is, the language of hermaphrodites or bisexual creatures.
              - The expansionist nature of civilization.
              - mass genocides for conquered peoples.
              the so-called "Russian" tsars are just puppets of the reptilian group. And the history of wars in this perspective is simpler and clearer. Just clearing the living space for carriers of the reptilian infection.
              1. 0
                26 September 2019 00: 53
                Original reptilians are inhabitants of planets with high gravity, high levels of UV radiation, high radiation background. For reference: the snake can withstand radiation of 20000 x-rays. The eyes of reptilians are covered with films of UV filters, the skin is thick to protect against powerful UV radiation. When exposed to high gravity, movement is a problem, because the forced solution is a car, a technical means of transportation. To protect against radiation - they have tunnels, on the ground this is the subway. The role of technology and robotic automation is very important, since living things can not cope with the spectrum of negative environmental factors.
        3. 0
          24 September 2019 15: 03
          if I’m not mistaken, then the Germans, the Romans called ALL! who lived beyond the borders of the Roman Empire ...
          1. 0
            25 September 2019 20: 19
            Germans (lat. Germani) - a group of related tribes (there are dozens of tribes) belonging to the Indo-European language family and occupying the territory of modern Denmark and the southern coast of Norway and Sweden (usually this period of history is called the Teutonic). By the XNUMXth century AD e. Germanic tribes settled the vast territory between the Rhine and the Vistula from west to east, the Danube in the south and the Dnieper and the Meot Sea in the southeast.

            The ethnonym is used to refer to peoples who spoke mainly Germanic languages, from the Bronze Age to the end of the Great Migration Period. By the XNUMXth century, as a result of migrations, the ancient Germans mixed with other peoples and took part in the formation of many European nations.
            his work "Germany" later author of I - II centuries.
            Roman Tacitus
            suggested that the name Germans came from the name of a tribe:

            “The word Germany is a new and recently entered into everyday life, for those who were the first to cross the Rhine and drive out the Gauls, now known by the name of the Tungra, were then nicknamed the Germans. Thus, the name of the tribe gradually prevailed and spread to the whole nation; at first, all out of fear designated him by the name of the winners, and then, after this name had taken root, he himself began to call himself German. ”[6]
    2. -3
      22 September 2019 08: 12
      The only example I know of a Russian who has made his way to an exceptionally high position is Ekaterina Petelina, Visa's top manager for the Sev region. America. But this is a case of 1 per million and rather a tribute to corporate culture and today's tolerance.

      3. Russian influence in the usa is minimal. All American culture, architecture, business, cuisine, holidays, life, concepts about life, etc., etc. - there is not a single detail that would be borrowed from us. Outside the national ghettos such as Brighton or Denver Aurora, you will not find a single detail, such as something related to Russian culture, or Orthodox churches, nor Russian names, not a single dish of Russian cuisine, alien to us, Anglo-Saxon civilization with a small admixture of western and southern Europe
      1. 0
        22 September 2019 14: 06
        Quote: Santa Fe
        no Russian names

        But what about "Moscow", "St. Petersburg", "Odessa" - there are several of them, and for a long time!
        1. -1
          22 September 2019 14: 53
          That's exactly what MULTIPLE - on a country with half a billion people; Petersonov, Corgi or Jeffersonov there are hundreds, and maybe tens of thousands if you still count the names of the streets))
      2. 0
        22 September 2019 14: 07
        Quote: Santa Fe
        The only example I know of a Russian who made his way to an exceptionally high position is Ekaterina Petelina, Visa's top manager for the Sev region. America.

        But what about Sikorsky and Seversky? !!
        And Rachmaninoff ?!
        1. -1
          22 September 2019 15: 00
          I meant modern time. An example with Sikorsky is again, an isolated case per million, from his era.

          By the way, it is interesting that before immigration Sikorsky was already a recognized world-famous aircraft designer, chief designer of the plant in St. Petersburg. Russian Ilon Maskov (who would start from scratch in a new place and become world famous) does not exist
  24. +2
    22 September 2019 16: 07
    German fighter aircraft had many problems. Optimum fighters for the Eastern Front were optimal for warfare at heights of no more than 6000-6500 meters. Those. for these fighters it was necessary to install conventional medium-high engines with a height of not more than 4500-5000 meters. Additional reservations with the FW-190 A-8 and A-9, which could not be dispensed with when attacking the American B-17 and B-24, were not necessary on the Eastern Front. In the West, the Germans needed high-altitude fighters with engines equipped with 2's step superchargers. With the development of such engines, the Germans lagged behind the USA and BI for a number of objective and not very good reasons. Attempts by the Germans in the West to use medium-altitude fighters, even Me-109 G-6 with DB ASBM / ASCM engines, Me-109 G-10 or Me-109 K-4 with DB-605 D engines, was a temporary solution since at altitudes above 8500 meters even these engines were already inferior to the American and English high-altitude fighter jets. It should be noted that even noticeably being late with the development of high-altitude engines with 2 X-stage superchargers, the Germans finished their developments in the first half of the 1944, but American and British bombers intervened and the number of high-altitude engines Jumo-213 E-1 / Jumo-213 F made by Germans was limited. The large-scale production of the DB-605 L, DB-603 L and BMW-801 R did not reach the point. The more advanced Jumo-213 EB or DB-603 N Germans, and under more favorable conditions, could produce no earlier than the second half / end of the 1945 year.
    1. 0
      26 September 2019 00: 35
      Thanks for the detailed explanation.
  25. +1
    22 September 2019 17: 33
    Lord .... this is nonsense ... fantastic. How can one roll such an "alternative" from real data and figures? Comrade talent is burrowing into the ground ... I would have already dashed off a whole series of books, I would have traveled to conventions ... And he is here, over our ears ...
    1. +2
      23 September 2019 08: 05
      But in the morning I read such an article - and you laugh all day.
  26. +1
    23 September 2019 10: 21
    the author is slightly bent over in the description
    Firstly, there was a series of Ta-152 and Dora, which completely fought with the Mustangs
    secondly, the problem with the Germans was that they needed night fighters and escorts and front-line and anti-fortress armored ones and the devil knows that, and the Americans had essentially only one main role - escort.
    that is the problem, not some kind of "inability." The same mustangs noticeably lost to Messers and Makki7 when there were front-line fights -
    battle statistics are available.
    1. 0
      24 September 2019 16: 35
      Quote: yehat
      Firstly, there was a series of Ta-152 and Dora, which completely fought with the Mustangs


      And the Ta-152 Germans were able to release too little for these fighters to seriously complicate the life of the Allied aircraft. FW-190 D-9 could fight on equal terms with allied fighters at heights of no more than 7000 metro. High-altitude serial with really good performance characteristics of the FW-190 D-11 series fighters, the Germans released only 17 units, and the FW-190 D-13 in general only 2. And in the flight units all these German fighters appeared too late.
      1. +1
        24 September 2019 16: 37
        those. the problem again boils down to production volumes and pilot training, and not to curved-arm German engineers
        1. 0
          24 September 2019 16: 45
          Quote: yehat
          those. the problem again boils down to production volumes and pilot training, and not to curved-arm German engineers


          I do not argue. If we mention here curvature and a clear lack of experience and knowledge, this applies primarily to the management of RLM and the technical department of RLM, which before the start of WWII and around the end of the 1941 year made too many most serious mistakes. For example, this concerns the development of high-altitude piston engines with 2-speed superchargers. Back in the mid-1930, Junkers developed such a high-altitude version of the engine based on the usual medium-high engine L-88. Although this prototype had a supercharger too bulky, the altitude of the engine turned out to be what is needed. It remains to achieve acceptable sizes of the supercharger, which was also quite possible. And no shortage of heat-resistant materials at the same time the Germans did not need to use.
  27. +1
    23 September 2019 22: 43
    It is hardly worth arguing about which of the German single-engine fighters of the past war was better - the Me-109 or FV-190. In the language of the wino from Operation Y, “you need to look at the problem more broadly.” The understanding of the OKL that the country was vulnerable to heavy bombers from high altitudes did not come in advance, but during the war, when it was necessary to quickly reorganize the air defense. In the literature, Zefirov and a little bit of Galland have more or less details about this.
    Various measures have been taken, including and emergency. Like our air fine, the Germans also formed corresponding air groups, the so-called "Rammers". German pilots could not be blamed for cowardice or lack of skill. The thing is different: they had to deal with sufficiently durable and well-protected machines, which were the American "fortresses" and "librarians". Fighting with them was the power of a jet Me-262, but to achieve superiority they were not enough. What was needed was a special aircraft — a barrage daytime high-altitude fighter-interceptor. His. oddly enough, in the luftwaffe, was not. To barrage, you need to meet the enemy before he is above the target, you need a supply of fuel (and this is significant weight), high speed (and these are powerful engines), effective weapons (and so far there are only guns and machine guns, almost such same as the enemy) and such a defense of the crew, in which the pilot would not have died when approaching the target, finding himself under a barrage of fire from bomber shooters even if this attack were the only one. The Allies knew that the losses in the air war were inevitable, but the Germans also knew about it when formations of 200-300 bombers covered 700-800 Mustang and Thunderbolt fighters. It was possible to counter them with approximately 300 fighters of various types, and according to Liddell-Garth, this number was gradually reduced due to losses from the Germans.
    To solve the problems of daytime interception at high altitudes, the FV-190 was adapted. The author of the article described in detail what was done and how. The machine became "heavy as an iron" and far from ideal, but there were no others and it was necessary to fight, as they say, "here and now." Lighter Me-109s were used to cover in the air from attacks of the P-47 and P-51, as well as the Me-262 during their take-off and landing. They were also missing and they also had losses.

    Whether the situation in the air could radically change. In my opinion, she could if she could create more effective weapons for fighters. The Reich, like an atomic bomb, was close to this. Our RS-2US guided missiles mounted on the MiG-17 and MiG-19 were a modified German Wasserfall, which could hit a bomber at a distance of 0,8-1 km, with a probability of 0,7-0,8.
    Another way was to increase the caliber and firing range of aircraft guns. A line of 2-3 shells of a 37-mm gun literally “collapsed” the bomber, not to mention the 75mm air guns. This required protected twin-engine and twin-seat fighters with characteristics higher than those of the Me-110 and Me-410, but there was not enough free capacity in Germany for their production, however, like much more.
    1. 0
      20 October 2019 02: 49
      In the USSR after the war, given the sad experience of the Germans in the fight against 4-motorbombs, and foreseeing that we would also have to clash with the Anglo-Saxons, the development of large-caliber on-board automatic guns by Grabin was carried out. There were long-barrel 37, 57, 76, 85, 100 mm with quite decent characteristics and low weight. But rocket euphoria and Ustinov buried everything.
  28. 0
    24 September 2019 16: 14
    In truth, the Me-109 had to be covered from the Allied fighters themselves, the LTX of German fighters was so backward by the end of the war.


    Frankly controversial statement of the author - why is this myth-making?
    The first battle of the Mustangs of the first series - had a sad loss ratio: for example, when landing near Dieppe - 2 downed planes, with own losses of 11 Mustangs.

    If we compare the most massive versions closer to the end of the war: the 1944 P-51D mustangs with the Bf-109K-4 - it is obvious that Messerschmitt was a very strong enemy - with excellent climb rate and strong armament, with better maneuverability both vertically and horizontally - how you can write about the "backward" LTH. By January 1945, 1/4 of the fighters were in combat with the Kurfust. Moreover, the G series of the latest models could withstand the mustangs.
    It is well known that only the overwhelming advantage of allies in the air allowed them to control airspace.
    The Mustang was more inertial when shifting the turn, due to the placement of weapons and ammunition (400 rounds of machine guns closest to the fuselage and two external rounds of 270 rounds each) in the wings (Bf-109K-4 central arrangement of weapons), a competent pilot Kurfust could confront the mustang pilot , the overwhelming number of mustangs, offset the technical advantages of the Messerschmitt.

    Given the fact that the German fighters fought over their territory, the shot down and not killed non-wounded pilot quickly returned to duty. Given the Mustang's weak armament, there was no chance of breaking through the armored back. To kill or injure pilots of Messerschmitts or Fockevulfs from the back hemisphere was much more difficult due to the lack of cannon weapons.
    I would like to look at the result of a mirror change in the situation - when a mustang would have to act as an interceptor for bombers from an escort aircraft - it would be the worst aircraft for such a task ... An engine damaged by a single hit, weak protection, weak weapons to intercept bombers ...
    In general, the Mustang was a good aircraft precisely as an escort fighter for effective combat only with other fighters or poorly protected bombers.

    According to Army Air Forces Statistical Digest for World War II, 1945 loss of US fighter pilots at the European Theater (excluding the Mediterranean line)

    2801 pilots died in 1944 and 978 pilots from January to August 1945.
    This is only the loss of US fighter pilots in combat and flight accidents associated with military missions. Not a little, given the fact that fighters to a greater extent suffered losses from enemy fighters and less from disasters and air defense fire.

    Take for example the most famous propelled Red Tails Tuskegee Airmen - the dark-skinned pilots of the 332nd fighter air group, flying on the P-51 Mustang (since July 1944).
    Which, according to legend, "did not lose a single bomber while escorting."
    Actually Research (MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT THE TUSKEGEE AIRMEN Dr. Daniel L. Haulman
    Air Force Historical Research Agency, July 24, 2013) had very serious losses and their own fighters and accompanying bombers.
    https://web.archive.org/web/20131029192052/http://www.afhra.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-130905-006.pdf

    332 fighter group announced 94 air victories for the period from June 1944 to May 1945
    About 303 bombers lost all FIFTEENTH AIR FORCE HEAVY BOMBERS, of which 27 Daniel L. Haulman, in his study of sorties, lists 332 groups and precisely those enemy fighters killed by fire when they were escorted by 332 groups.

    The legend does not converge with reality.
    1. +1
      25 September 2019 10: 36
      for effective combat only with other fighters or poorly protected bombers.

      here I do not agree. Yes, the Colt 50. caliber looked anachronistic and weaker than the guns, but you do not take into account the important point - the characteristics of these trunks.
      ballistics and energy were very worthy. the range of aimed fire was also good.
      so even though these were not guns, they were still not very weak weapons.
      Of course, against the B-17 they were rather weak, but they could pile quite heavily due to the number of trunks. In fact, these machine guns were approaching the 15mm gun, which the Germans used on the bf-109f2
  29. 0
    24 September 2019 16: 45
    Quote: rubin6286
    Whether the situation in the air could radically change. In my opinion, I could if

    Development scenarios suggest that the most realistic was to score special staffs for jet fighters, for adlertag operations, for missiles and just do mass Focke-Wulfs, attracting aces more actively in training new pilots
    so the Germans could already have in 44 an additional 300-400 combat-ready fighter of the fv-190-8 or D2 level and this would be enough to not lose control of the sky of France and fend off the fortresses.
    This means that the Germans would not have to flee France, leaving completely the materiel of 3 tank and mechanized units on roads, bridges and crossings.
    there were more than 130 pieces of jagdpanther abandoned in France.
    1. -1
      25 September 2019 10: 05
      Quote: yehat
      to score special staffels for jet fighters, for adlertag operation, for missiles and just do mass Focke-Wulfs


      It's not so simple: to prepare so many pilots - it takes time and resource, while Fiesler is generally a simple cheap design of the airframe and engine (the main cost is devices).
      But in order to confront cr Fisler (FAU-1), the UK had to divert many planes - fighters to intercept and fly around in interception areas, attack aircraft, to strike at stationary positions - that is, the FAU-1 program probably diverted more effort than was expended , which led to the loss of the British in the attack aircraft and the development of the resource of engines.
      Yes, and the Tempest, which were used for interceptions, could be useful for them to attack - but they had to use the defense of the metropolis from flying shells.
      In December 1943, the command of the British Air Defense received the order to develop a plan of defense against V-1. It was necessary to reorganize the existing system of air defense, which during the "battle for Britain" covered London and the industrial cities of central England. The situation was rather complicated: after all, only Tempest and Spitfire XIV could successfully fight with V-1. And even then they removed all unnecessary equipment, washed off the protective paint and polished the lining to a shine. Only in this situation, with an increase in speed of 35-50 km / h, they could catch the aircraft shell.


      A compromise decision was made to equip 4 “heavy positions” (Bunker Sirakur and Bunker Brecoert) and 96 “light” ones. In fact, not a single difficult position was completed, and all launches were carried out with light. When attacking a number of launch positions - dozens of British attack aircraft were lost.
      On December 5, 1943, American and British aircraft began to bomb the launch sites and warehouses of the V-1 missiles. Over the course of six months, out of 52 launch sites, 36 were completely destroyed, and 96 out of 88 warehouses of projectile-shells. In total, allied bombers made more than 25 thousand sorties on missile facilities located near the coast.

      In the beginning, the effectiveness of the application was very high. 82% of V-1s exploded in London during the first week of launch, but by the end of the month this number had dropped to 60%.

      This is the case of effective weapons when defense required more funds than an attack.
      To make it difficult to fight a new weapon, the Germans alternated massive salvos from all installations and single disturbing launches in the course of one “launching” day. Few people know, but the flight altitude of cruise missiles, equal to 900-1000 m, was not chosen by chance. The missiles went below the line of defeat by heavy artillery and above the effective fire zone of small caliber artillery. At this altitude, a small-sized cruise missile was poorly detected by radars and was a difficult target for automatic and manual anti-aircraft defense and fire control devices.

      But after that, the British could not breathe easy, as the German game of "cat and mouse" made them throw bombs into the sand. The Germans directed all their efforts to the construction of small concrete platforms. By June 1944, intelligence had already discovered 69 of such objects. The analytical departments of British intelligence did not even suspect that the installation of the 6-meter section of the assembly structure with guide rails required only 48 watches.

      V-1 prefabricated launchers were easily restored after Allied bombers raids. Therefore, despite the efforts of the Allies, in June-July of the 1944, the intensity of the V-1 raids did not noticeably decrease. On some days, the British Air Force patrolled up to 160 cruise missiles.

      On August 4 and 6, with B-17 remote-controlled aircraft ramming attacks (converted from a flying resource), targets that were reliably protected by strong reinforced concrete shelters were destroyed in the areas of Sprakot, Watton and Virzen.
      about the second half of July, the bombing of supply bases and rocket-related factories again resumed. In less than a month, 20 major Allied strategic aviation raids on V-1 warehouses were carried out. 15000 sorties and 48 tons of bombs were dropped on missile facilities.

      The new 6-ton Tollboy bombs were used against the underground rocket depot in St. Jezern, the Volkswagen plant in Fullersleben, the pilot plant in Peenemuende and the Opel plant in Rüsselheim. However, attacks on industrial facilities in Germany could not have any serious impact on the production of cruise missiles.

      And due to the fact that the Fislers began to drop from bombers from July 1944 to March 1945, their flight areas became unpredictable and the patrol areas had to be expanded even more. A total of about 1176 V-1 missiles were launched from carrier aircraft.

      Moreover, the Fizler-103 production program began at the end of 1942, when the situation on the fronts was still not critical.

      The bottom line:
      By March 29, 1945, about 10 were launched in England; 000 fell on its territory, of which 3200 reached London, causing losses in 2419 people killed and 6184 17 wounded.

      Statistics:
      About 20% of the missiles failed at launch, 25% were destroyed by British aircraft, 17% were shot down by anti-aircraft guns, 7% were destroyed in a collision with barrage balloons. Engines often failed to achieve the goal and also the vibration of the engine often put the missile out of action, so about 20% of the V-1 fell into the sea. Although specific numbers vary from source to source, a British report published after the war showed that 7547 Fau-1s were launched in England. The report indicates that of these, 1847 were destroyed by fighters, 1866 were destroyed by anti-aircraft artillery, 232 were destroyed by barrage balloons and 12 by artillery of the Royal Navy ships.


      The destruction of the launch pads - aimed at Leningrad - cost serious losses. The sites were covered by strong air defense.

      But what efforts were made by the air defense of Leningrad to repel a possible attack of the Fi-103
      Preparing to repel an attack
      On July 19, 1944, the Military Council of Artillery of the Soviet Army approved and sent to the Air Defense Forces "Preliminary Instructions for Combating Projectile Aircraft." So, according to Soviet intelligence, the most likely areas for the launching sites of V-1 could be the vicinity of the settlements of Rakvere, Mustave (Estonia) and the areas of Lovisa, Inkeroinen and Loppenronta (Finland).
      It was also assumed that the Nazis would try to use the FAU-1 launched from the He-111 bombers against Leningrad. In the most dangerous areas, two sectors were created, consisting of three zones, in which anti-aircraft artillery, barrage balloons and fighter aircraft were successively located. The depth of the three zones ranged from 70 to 100 km. For the missile defense of Leningrad, 73 observation posts, 13 company posts and 5 Redut radar stations were allocated, which could detect a projectile at a distance of 120 km. Four regiments of fighter aircraft, more than 100 anti-aircraft artillery batteries (418 guns), and more than 200 barrage balloons were concentrated in the sectors. The exercises conducted by the command of the Leningrad Air Defense Army to repel massive V-1 raids (simulated by the flights of Soviet Yak-9 fighters) clearly showed that not a single supposed projectile would have reached the city.

      http://voentex.ru/blog/74

      Note - this is only from the assumption of a threat, such forces are involved in the attack. Brilliant weapons - which require the diversion of a mass of forces and means
      1. -1
        25 September 2019 10: 12
        The British missile defense system consisted of four zones: the outer and inner zones covered by fighters, the coastal anti-aircraft artillery zone and the barrage balloon zone. The outer zone included airspace over the English Channel to the coast of Britain. Four to six Mustang Mk.III and Spitfire Mk.XIV fighters constantly patrolled there during the day, or 3-4 aircraft at night. Here are located 15 ships of the radar patrol, aimed at the interceptors. Their light anti-aircraft guns also fired at flying cruise missiles.
      2. 0
        25 September 2019 15: 09
        Dmitry Vladimirovich! The Germans used FAU-1 in England from the territory of Western Europe and, to a lesser extent, used the same Zhe-111 carrier aircraft. These missiles could not reach the objects on the territory of the USSR in 1945. There was not enough range and accuracy. It would be worse if they used FAU-2 and nuclear warheads for this, but fortunately this did not happen. FAU-1 could be detected using radar and shot down by anti-aircraft fire or fighters, and FAU-2 only in the final section of the trajectory, when the count is seconds, the air defense and air force are already useless. Exercises can of course be carried out, but it is rather an escalation of psychosis. In the 80s, we planned the re-launch of ballistic missiles from mines, which were already used earlier. the teachings were on. but no one hit the head that there would simply be no one to install new missiles in these mines. There will be a lunar landscape on Earth.
        1. 0
          25 September 2019 15: 46
          Quote: rubin6286
          Dmitry Vladimirovich! The Germans used FAU-1 in England from the territory of Western Europe and, to a lesser extent, used the same Zhe-111 carrier aircraft. These missiles could not reach the objects on the territory of the USSR in 1945. There was not enough range and accuracy


          There were bridgeheads (Courland Cauldron until May 8, 1945), there were options for the long-range Fisler with a reduced warhead and increased fuel supply - there was a threat, and countermeasures against it too.
          Above I wrote that 111 missiles were launched with the He-1176 across the UK, planes approached the coast at an altitude of 100-300 m, gained altitude and dropped a fisler, usually in these areas they caught night fighters. In the USSR there were no night fighters with radar, so the threat was quite real.
    2. 0
      25 September 2019 14: 42
      ..... "the most realistic thing was to score special staffels on jet fighters, on the adlertag operation, on missiles and just make massive focke-wolfs, much more actively involving aces in training new pilots"

      Are you serious? Yes, the entire German nation could not just guess before. It's a pity you didn't live then. Of course, the "Fokkers" and submarines would not have decided the outcome of the war, but it was possible for the entire people, from 8-year-olds to 80-year-olds, to hang the Shhahids' belts and force them to throw themselves under Russian or American tanks.

      I used to describe your comment in "normal" language, but the moderator has already warned me that if I do so, I will be banned.
      Do not write outright nonsense in the "aviation" section.
    3. 0
      25 September 2019 14: 51
      Sergei! I did not write about the FAU-1 and FAU-2 missiles and do not need to cling to them. It was about air-to-air missiles. The Germans also created them, but did not manage to bring them to mass production. They created the Henschel-293 remote-controlled bomb and successfully sank the Allied warships, but for some reason they did not manage to use the radar homing head in Wasserfall. If it were otherwise, the allies would lose not 30-40 vehicles in one combat sortie, but three times more. Three sorties - and there is no air army!
    4. 0
      25 September 2019 16: 56
      Quote: yehat
      so the Germans could already have in 44 an additional 300-400 combat-ready fighter of the fv-190-8 or D2 level and this would be enough to not lose control of the sky of France and fend off the fortresses.


      Apparently here "fv-190a8 or D2" we are talking about fv-190a8 and D9?
  30. 0
    25 September 2019 14: 56
    Quote: DimerVladimer
    A brilliant weapon - which requires

    I meant anti-aircraft missiles for aircraft.
    It is clear that the V-1 was a good project.
    1. 0
      25 September 2019 16: 10
      Quote: yehat
      I meant anti-aircraft missiles for aircraft.
      It is clear that the V-1 was a good project.


      Got it.
      A curious guess.
      After the war, our design bureaus didn’t realize German anti-aircraft missiles after the war due to lack of experience. The same German “Wasserfall” modified by R-101, (developed by NII-88) - development was stopped due to futility. It took 25 years to create the S-5 ... I’m not sure that the Germans would be able to ...
      Dimensions of radars did not allow to create a homing head on the principle of radar at that time
      1. +1
        25 September 2019 17: 17
        the Germans needed just a more convenient version of the NURS for firing at a cloud of airplanes from an air platform, there was no need to make special notions.
        if for example the bf-110 could launch and steer a rocket from 3-4 kilometers or at least roughly direct it, the Germans would solve the air defense problem.
        1. 0
          26 September 2019 13: 14
          Quote: yehat
          the Germans needed just a more convenient version of the NURS for firing at a cloud of airplanes from an air platform, there was no need to make special notions.
          if for example the bf-110 could launch and steer a rocket from 3-4 kilometers or at least roughly direct it, the Germans would solve the air defense problem.


          I read about the tests of the exotic method. One pilot of the Fockevulf thought up - they dropped a powerful bomb from the FW-190 and it exploded in the midst of a dense system of bombers.
          Allegedly, at the first successful test, three flying fortresses were immediately destroyed by such weapons.
  31. +1
    26 September 2019 09: 40
    The main drawback of Sturmbock was that he promised to protect the sky of the Reich, but did not fulfill his promise.

    1. The main drawback of the FV-190 is that half of them were used as ground-attack aircraft in the East and never gathered a thousand fighters into a fist to completely defeat at least one big raid on a thousand flying fortresses. So this is not the technical problem of the aircraft, but the mistakes of the military command of the Luftwaffe and the Reich.
    2. Mustangs shot down the FV-190 thanks, in the first place, to multiple numerical superiority - not thanks to any superiority in summer data. Mustang itself is a very heavy machine, which must carry a lot of fuel for the return.
    Secondly, the bombers hit the PV - they dodged the battle with the Mustangs, and after shelling the bombers they had practically no ammunition. At the same time, the Mustangs are the main target of German fighters. So naturally FV shot down mainly B-17, and Mustangs shot down FV, in the summer ratio summer characteristics of cars are not of great importance.
  32. 0
    26 September 2019 09: 58
    Quote: yehat
    the Germans needed just a more convenient version of the NURS for firing at a cloud of airplanes from an air platform, there was no need to make special notions.
    if for example the bf-110 could launch and steer a rocket from 3-4 kilometers or at least roughly direct it, the Germans would solve the air defense problem.

    Beat such a development guided missile aerial combat - X-4 controlled by wire. The first test launch of the X-4 rocket was carried out on August 11, 1944 from the Fokke-Wulf Fw 190 fighter. On the FV-190 they wanted to hang 4 such missiles. Then they wrote that it was difficult for pilots of single-seat fighters to simultaneously control an airplane and aim a missile at a target. In addition, there were other design problems, which ultimately led to the conclusion that the X-4 should be launched from multi-seat aircraft, for example, from the Junkers bomber Ju-88, which made practical use ineffective.
    The idea of ​​a ground-based MLRS for firing NURSs at air targets was much better.
  33. 0
    26 September 2019 10: 19
    September 1943 - Oct 1944
    During this period, a total of 8600 warplanes were “lost” in the east, while 27 060 were “lost” in the west; the ratio of western “losses” to eastern “losses” was 27 060 / 8600 = 3,41 to unity.

    Something is not quite right.
    He considered the Luftwaffe irretrievable losses for this period (September 43 - October 44), and if in the East the losses were about 8 thousand, then on all other fronts it was about 19 thousand. The ratio of 19/8 = 2,4 is not 3,4. The rest - include air defense of the Reich, the West, Italy, the Balkans, Norway. They have a higher percentage of non-combat losses because this is a district for the Reich and a small part of these losses (in Norway and the Balkans) are against the Soviet Air Force.
  34. 0
    26 September 2019 13: 23
    Quote: DimerVladimer
    Quote: yehat
    the Germans needed just a more convenient version of the NURS for firing at a cloud of airplanes from an air platform, there was no need to make special notions.
    if for example the bf-110 could launch and steer a rocket from 3-4 kilometers or at least roughly direct it, the Germans would solve the air defense problem.


    I read about the tests of the exotic method. One pilot of the Fockevulf thought up - they dropped a powerful bomb from the FW-190 and it exploded in the midst of a dense system of bombers.
    Allegedly, at the first successful test, three flying fortresses were immediately destroyed by such weapons.

    bombs were used actively, only small ones to destroy the system.
  35. 0
    9 October 2019 16: 00
    Quote: Santa Fe
    Fighter Bomber FW-190A-5 / U-12
    This is not an air fighter

    I meant FW-190A-8 - they began to regularly install MG-131, and abandoned MG-FF.
    Well, the Ta-152C was created back in November 1944, it had wings, and an engine, and a cabin, and armaments sufficient for fighting at high altitudes. Only the latest Spitfires XX + and P-51H could resist them.
    There was also Ta-153 in 1943, also sufficient for Spitfire XIV and P-51BD.

    The problem lay exclusively in the mass training of the Luftwaffe flight crew, whose flying time during the training was 3-4 times less than that of the Allies.
  36. 0
    28 May 2020 22: 01
    You just need to know where to shoot, the recommendations for the I-24 attack looked like this - in the wing part between the internal engines and the fuselage - then the B-24 folds its wings

"Right Sector" (banned in Russia), "Ukrainian Insurgent Army" (UPA) (banned in Russia), ISIS (banned in Russia), "Jabhat Fatah al-Sham" formerly "Jabhat al-Nusra" (banned in Russia) , Taliban (banned in Russia), Al-Qaeda (banned in Russia), Anti-Corruption Foundation (banned in Russia), Navalny Headquarters (banned in Russia), Facebook (banned in Russia), Instagram (banned in Russia), Meta (banned in Russia), Misanthropic Division (banned in Russia), Azov (banned in Russia), Muslim Brotherhood (banned in Russia), Aum Shinrikyo (banned in Russia), AUE (banned in Russia), UNA-UNSO (banned in Russia), Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar people (banned in Russia), Legion “Freedom of Russia” (armed formation, recognized as terrorist in the Russian Federation and banned), Kirill Budanov (included to the Rosfinmonitoring list of terrorists and extremists)

“Non-profit organizations, unregistered public associations or individuals performing the functions of a foreign agent,” as well as media outlets performing the functions of a foreign agent: “Medusa”; "Voice of America"; "Realities"; "Present time"; "Radio Freedom"; Ponomarev Lev; Ponomarev Ilya; Savitskaya; Markelov; Kamalyagin; Apakhonchich; Makarevich; Dud; Gordon; Zhdanov; Medvedev; Fedorov; Mikhail Kasyanov; "Owl"; "Alliance of Doctors"; "RKK" "Levada Center"; "Memorial"; "Voice"; "Person and law"; "Rain"; "Mediazone"; "Deutsche Welle"; QMS "Caucasian Knot"; "Insider"; "New Newspaper"