We are building a fleet. Consequences of "uncomfortable" geography

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Agreeing in the last part that we need an adequate domestic theory of naval power, we need to adapt it to geography, because Russia's position on the seas is unique.

We are building a fleet. Consequences of "uncomfortable" geography

The Soviet Navy partially solved the "geographical problem." And the Russian Navy will also have to solve it




We are accustomed to the fact that Russia quite has access to the sea. And at first glance this is actually so - our sea border has a length of 38807 kilometers, and the coast is washed directly by the Pacific and Arctic Oceans, and indirectly by the Atlantic. And we have more merchant ships under national jurisdiction than the United States.

And yet, many Western commentators, talking to each other, characterize Russia as Landlocked - literally locked or blocked by land. Here, by the way, again it is important to correctly understand the meanings: we use phrases like “land power”, and our opponents instead have it “locked by land”.

There is no contradiction. All maritime communications used by merchant fleets of different countries to communicate with our country, and our Navy, too, pass through the narrownesses that a potential adversary controls.


It can be seen that the exits of all fleets to the ocean pass through narrownesses. In the Far East, almost the same thing.


Moreover, the enemy’s presence of naval bases around the world, and naval groups on all oceans, gives him the opportunity to either block the Russian Navy in coastal waters, or attack him there, establishing in any case sea supremacy off our coasts, which then he will allow him to use our coastal zone for attacks of our territory from the sea.

This problem was described in more detail in the article. “There are no exits. On the geographical isolation of the oceans for the Russian Navy ". However, that article had the goal of focusing the attention of the public on something that the public for some reason forgot, replacing the process of thinking with the thoughtless eating of the informational “feed” that our “not very accurate propaganda machine” wraps into it.

However, the limitations that are on the development of our fleet the geographical factor influences, they are so important, and, with the right approach to naval construction, will have such a powerful influence on the fleet that they need to be studied as thoroughly as possible. And, most importantly, to assess the consequences of geographical factors for the future of the Russian fleet.

Not a fleet, but fleets. On isolated theater


It is necessary to call a spade a spade: we do not have a fleet, but four fleets and one flotilla are different. Those theaters of operations in which the bases of our fleets are located differ from one another simply phenomenally. So some aviation torpedoes armed with naval aviation do not work in the Baltic - water salinity is insufficient to activate the battery. In the Pacific Ocean and in the North, storms of the same magnitude affect ships differently because of the different wavelengths during storms and waves characteristic of different regions. Opponents (except the main enemy, which is everywhere with us) are different, the coastline is different in outline, and as a result, in principle, there are different combat conditions for each fleet. And this potentially dictates a different structure and different ship composition for each of the fleets.

At the same time, maneuvering ships between fleets is extremely difficult even in peacetime - far away, and in the military it will be possible only if the United States does not participate in the war. If they participate in it, then ships from one fleet to another will not be transferred. The only exceptions are the ships of the Caspian flotilla, which can be sent to help the Black Sea Fleet (let us leave the potential usefulness of this step “outside the brackets”).

These limitations will never be overcome. And that means that the consequences that such geographical fragmentation leads to will always work, and the fleet should be built with this factor in mind.

The problem of the fragmentation of the fleets in an extremely acute form faced Russia with the outbreak of the Russo-Japanese War. Then it turned out that the Japanese have a superiority in numbers over all the naval forces of the Russian Empire in the Pacific Ocean. The confrontation of the Japanese fleet against the 1th Pacific Squadron ended in a logical victory for Japan, and when the 2th Pacific Squadron arrived after a months-long transoceanic transfer to the Far East, the Japanese again had numerical superiority over it. The overall superiority of the Russian Imperial fleet over the Japanese fleet proved impossible to realize. It is worth recognizing that today the problem has not gone away.


Possible routes. Northern - almost not suitable for submarines and requires at least US neutrality. South is closed to nuclear submarines, they need to go around Africa


In the fundamental doctrinal document relating to the Navy, in the "Fundamentals of the state policy of the Russian Federation in the field of naval activities for the period up to 2030," the following lines are given to the inter-theater maneuver of the Navy:

38. The main objectives of naval activities to prevent military conflicts and strategic containment are:
...
e) performing inter-theater maneuvers, as well as regular under-ice navigation of nuclear submarines of the Navy;


и

51. Indicators of the effectiveness of measures to implement state policy in the field of naval activities are:
...
d) the ability of the Navy to build up a naval group in a dangerous strategic direction due to inter-theater maneuver by naval forces;


Alas, the fundamental point was ignored - what should I do if the need for an inter-theater maneuver arose in wartime? But this is a fundamental point - after the outbreak of the global military conflict, no maneuver of naval missile defense between the theater of operations by sea will be impossible, on the other hand, it does not particularly limit anything before it begins. In the case of a local conflict, the fundamental question is that the maneuvering forces should be on time in the theater of operations in time, before the enemy establishes dominance at sea (and not as in the Russo-Japanese war).

Unfortunately, we again see the formal approach taken by the drafters of a guidance document that is important from a doctrinal point of view. The effect of the fragmentation of our fleets on the organizational and staffing structure of the fleet as a type of aircraft is not mentioned. Meanwhile, the problem of maneuver is both important and partly solvable, but the composition of the Navy and its organization should be built with such a task in mind.

However, there is a positive point in the disunity of our fleets. Our fleets are almost impossible to defeat all at once if their command will properly manage the entrusted forces and troops. In order to achieve the simultaneous defeat of all our fleets, it is necessary to assemble a coalition that would include at least the United States, part of NATO, Japan, preferably Australia.

And Russia, in turn, seeing the titanic preparations for an attack on itself by the 1 / 8 of all mankind, must fascinatedly wait for a denouement and do nothing. This is hardly possible in the real world. And for a single United States with its current military personnel, the Navy will not be able to “cover” everyone at the same time — in the best case, it will be possible to “deal” with the Pacific Fleet and carry out a heavy oncoming battle with the North. They will probably win it, but this gain will have a price.

And this factor, which works for us and directly follows from the fragmentation of the fleets, we can also use in the future.

It is curious to note that we are not alone. Another country whose fleet is divided by land and cannot quickly get together is ... the USA!

This is not customary to talk about, for some strange reasons, but our main opponent has the same exact vulnerability - his Navy is divided between the Pacific Ocean and the Atlantic. And, importantly, the main striking force of the U.S. Navy - aircraft carriers, can not make the transition to the Panama Canal. Only bypassing South America and nothing more. This gives us some opportunities that we will talk about one day. In the meantime, we restrict ourselves to stating the fact that the disunity of the fleets due to their location on different sides of a large land mass does not impede the attainment of naval power and the conduct of war at sea to a decisive degree, but this disunity must be correctly circumvented. The United States resolved this issue by holding its ships for many years in dimensions that allowed it to pass through the Panama Canal.


Iowa class battleship at the Panama Canal lock


Only the appearance of the post-war large aircraft carriers changed this state of affairs (although the Montana planned during the Second World battleship should also have been too large, but they did not begin to be built). Our solution may be and may be different.

However, it would not be entirely true to limit ourselves to purely geographical restrictions, because they imply yet another restriction, so to speak, of the “second level”.

Both to the West from Russia and to the East from it are states that are simply superior to the Russian Federation in economic power and military shipbuilding, or alliances, groups of states that, when united, will also jointly gain superiority over the Russian Federation.

The clearest example is Japan. This country has not much smaller population, economic superiority, it builds ships much faster than Russia, and easily, within a few years, can hand over its Navy to an aircraft carrier. For Russia, with its economy and threat structure, even a hypothetical “competition” over forces at sea with Japan seems to be an extremely difficult task, and we are not friends in the West either. And this is another consequence of the fact that our fleets are scattered across the extreme regions of a vast land mass - we will never be able to provide a numerical superiority over our opponents in theater distant from each other. We, theoretically, can “in principle” be, on the whole, stronger than the Japanese or the British, but in order to realize this superiority, we need to bring the fleets together so that they can support each other’s operations against the same enemy. The latter, however, will understand this no worse than us, and impede us by all means, from diplomatic, to purely military.

With the United States, it’s even worse, in principle, we won’t even be able to mitigate the blow of the Americans if they catch us in the waters adjacent to the bases, without the ability to join forces, at least some of them.

So, to summarize:

- Different conditions on different fleets require, apparently, different ship composition.
- Geography requires a very quick maneuver of CC in the pre-war time, and makes it almost impossible in the war.
- At the same time, it is extremely difficult to achieve the simultaneous defeat of all Russian fleets by any one enemy, which gives Russia time, albeit small, to organize or defend in all directions, or, in the case of a local war with free to maneuver global communications, for inter-theater maneuver.
- One of the consequences of the geographical fragmentation of the fleets is the economically impossible dominance in the theaters of military operations over potential opponents - they are corny too economically powerful. It will always be so, and always the enemy will interfere with the transfer of additional naval forces by sea to “his” theater of operations.

The voiced problems can be solved. Requirements to have different types of ships on different TVDs look, oddly enough, the most easily resolved. In fact, the “special” theater of operations, where adaptation to the conditions of a theater of affairs cannot be sacrificed for universality, is the Baltic. And here we can resort to the following tricks:

1. Integration of combat missions in one platform. So, for example, a small medium landing ship armed with a pair of 76-mm guns will also be a landing ship, and will be able to fire along the coast, and will be able to hit surface targets with artillery fire, will be able to conduct mine missions and perform transport tasks. Perhaps he will be able to arm him with some small-sized missiles with a range of "to the horizon", then he will be able to attack and destroy surface targets beyond the range of actual fire of 76 graphs. Its design will not be optimal for any of these tasks, but on the other hand, the same ship can really solve them all. This will allow not to build two or three specialized ships, and confine oneself to one optimized for a theater of war with its depths, distances, enemy, etc.

2. The unification of not projects, but systems. If we assume that we urgently need a special type of warship in the Baltic, then it can be unified with other ships of the Navy not within the same project, but in terms of subsystems. For example, the same radar system, the same diesel engine, cannon, the same missiles, but different hulls, the number of engines, the number of missiles, the presence / absence of a hangar, helicopter landing sites, different crews, and so on. At the same time, you immediately need to make a version of the “Baltic project” for export too, to justify the additional costs of a separate small series of ships for one theater.

It must be understood that, unlike the inter-theater maneuver by forces and means, this problem is insignificant. Maneuvering is a completely different matter.

Maneuver


It must be clearly understood that the maneuver by fleets and groups of warships from "their" fleet into the required combat zone, if there is an enemy ready to fight on the communications, will be either impossible or meaningless due to the loss of time. This leads us to a simple and consistent solution - since after the outbreak of hostilities the maneuver is no longer possible or difficult, it must be carried out as much as possible ... before the outbreak of hostilities!

And here the Soviet experience from the "Gorshkov era" comes to our aid, namely the concept of the OPESK - operational squadrons. OPESK represented a group of warships and ships of the floating rear, previously deployed in the far sea and ocean zones, ready at any moment to engage in hostilities. Today, at that time, it was customary to nostalgia recalling that the Navy of the USSR was “present” in certain regions, but now ... In the same Fundamentals, the need for this “presence” is mentioned on almost every second page.

That's just the USSR Navy was not just “present”, it was deployed in important areas of the World Ocean, so that it could not be taken aback by the outbreak of war. These were forces designed to contain the war by demonstrating their readiness to immediately join it, the Soviet Union’s response to the geographical problem.

Whether we like it or not, the OPESK is an insurmountable necessity, taking into account our geographical location. We will not have time to maneuver after the war begins, but we can have deployed forces in the ocean in advance that can arrive at a potential point of conflict in a matter of days.


Areas of responsibility of the Soviet OPEC


However, unlike the Soviet Union, for economic reasons we cannot constantly hold large forces in the ocean. Therefore, in our case, the provision of inter-theater maneuver by ships should look like the deployment of operational formations with the participation of ships of all fleets at the first signs of a threatened period.

For example, satellite reconnaissance made it possible to detect the loading of supplies on all Japanese submarines at the same time. This is an intelligence sign. And without additional expectation, the ships of the Northern and Black Sea Fleets allocated to the OPESK are preparing to go to sea, get ammunition, go to sea, meet, and if within a couple of three days after this the Japanese do not receive a clear explanation, the group begins the transition to The Indian Ocean, having the reserve task of demonstrating the flag and business calls, that is, essentially helping domestic diplomats, and the main one, is to be ready to move to the Pacific Ocean and immediately enter the war against Japan.

If during the OPESK transition the tension decreases, then the squadron’s action plan changes, its time at sea is reduced and so on, if not, it’s transferred to the area from where it can begin to act against the enemy, and in the future, it expects development events and the corresponding order.

There is no other scenario of inter-theater maneuver by surface forces, with which we would be guaranteed to be in time everywhere.

Deployment of submarines is carried out similarly, but taking into account actions to ensure stealth.

This half-forgotten response to the geographical challenge should be the basis of our military planning.

However, this is not a panacea. Firstly, events can go corny too quickly. Secondly, the previously available fleet forces in the theater of operations (in the example of Japan it is the Pacific Fleet) in total with the OPEC collected from other fleets may simply not be enough, and it may not be possible to transfer additional forces at all or on time. Under these conditions, the fleet needs a mobile reserve, the ability of which to be relocated from one direction to another could not be stopped by any enemy, and which could be in place really quickly.

The only force capable of this kind of maneuver is aviation. And here we are again forced to resort to the Soviet experience when coastal-based missile-bearing aircraft were the main striking force of the Navy. From the point of view of constructing a “classical” fleet, such a solution looks strange, but there is nothing strange - this is the only way to level our partially unsuccessful geographical position. National specificity.

Of course, all of the above applies not only to naval attack aircraft, but also to anti-submarine, which is the most dangerous and effective means of combating submarines.

Article "On the need to restore naval missile aircraft" approaches were announced that allowed Russia to quickly and not very expensive compared to the USSR restore basic attack aircraft. Briefly - the Su-30СМ platform with a more powerful radar and the Onyx missile as the "main caliber", in the future, the addition of cheap and small-size AWACS and refueling aircraft, when it will be possible to develop and build them.




An example of a possible future. So far not ours, but Indian - Su-30MKI and the Bramos rocket (in fact, our Onyx)


Such aircraft will be able to relocate from fleet to fleet within a few days and stepwise increase the power of surface ships and submarines deployed in the sea, increasing their missile salvo or even allowing them to dispense target designations by surface forces.

In the same article, the justification was made that it should be naval aviation, and not just an outfit for the air forces.

The last question: is it necessary to create such aircraft in the framework of the Navy, and not VKS?
The answer is unequivocal: yes. Fighting over the sea and against fleets has its own specifics, for example, the need for many hours of flying over an unoriented terrain, the need to search for and attack targets over it, including in adverse weather conditions, the need to attack compact and mobile targets protected by air defense and EW of such power , with which the pilot VKS is unlikely to meet somewhere. All this requires specific combat training, and she - time pilots. In addition, it is clear that the naval formations commanders will sometimes find it very difficult to solicit “their” aircraft from the VCS, especially if the VKS themselves find themselves in difficult circumstances. For these reasons, sea-launched missile aircraft should be part of the fleet, not the VKS. Of course, it will be necessary to train naval commanders in the combat use of aviation, to make them competent in its tactics, in order to rule out incompetent decisions of commanders who have left the crew. But in general, the need for naval subordination of this kind of troops is not in doubt.


And no matter how large-scale the reorganization of maritime aviation would be needed to provide such opportunities, it will have to be done.

Today, many have already forgotten that in the USSR, most long-range bombers were not part of the Air Force, but part of the Navy. So, in 1992 in the long-range aviation there were 100 Tu-22M missile carriers of all modifications, and in the Navy aviation - 165. Aircraft with their mobility proved to be an indispensable means of increasing the mass and density of a missile salvo in a naval battle.

By the eighties, Americans came to the same conclusion.

In the second half of the eighties, in response to the appearance in the USSR Navy of aircraft-carrying cruisers of the 1143 ave. And missile cruisers of the 1144 ave, as well as an increase in the number of naval personnel as a whole, they began to equip the Harpoon anti-ship missiles with the B-52 strategic bombers. It was assumed that the B-52, modified for the ability to perform low-altitude (500 m) flights for a long time, possessing perhaps the world's most powerful aircraft-based electronic warfare system, with trained pilots and six anti-ship missiles each, could play an important role in naval battles with the USSR Navy that the U.S. Navy was preparing for in the eighties. So it, apparently, would be.


"Anti-ship" bomber with anti-ship missile system "Harpoon"


The Americans well understood that planes with anti-ship missiles would be a force multiplier in a naval war — they would allow for many small-sized strike groups of ships with insufficient missile salvo power, but widespread coverage, and, before the battle, to quickly increase the firepower of such small groups with their missiles . It was precisely the fleet’s mobile reserve, although it was subordinate to the Air Force, not the Navy.

Now that the growth of the Chinese Navy is already threatening Western dominance in the world, they are doing the same. At the moment, the training of the personnel of the 28 air wing of the US Air Force and their B-1 bombers for the use of LRASM missiles has been completed.

With our geographical location, we cannot avoid the same thing, only, of course, adjusted for the "economy".

However, having introduced preliminary deployment as a basic strategy of the pre-war (threatened) period, and creating a mobile reserve capable of transferring from fleet to fleet, we run into a “stopper” on the way to effectively manage such forces and their actions — the existing command system.

Article “Destroyed management. There is no single command of the fleet for a long time. ” it described what the naval command and control system turned into during the ill-conceived reform of Serdyukov. It is worth quoting from there explaining that fleet management must again be returned to the fleet.

Let us imagine an example: by the nature of the radio exchange and proceeding from the analysis of the current situation, the intelligence of the Navy understands that the enemy is going to concentrate against the Russian forces in the Pacific region the reinforced grouping of submarines, with the probable task of being ready to break the sea communications between Primorye on the one hand and Kamchatka and Chukotka on the other.
An emergency solution could be a maneuver by anti-submarine aviation from other fleets ... but now it is first necessary that the ground forces officers from the GSH correctly evaluate the information from the Navy, believe in it, so that the naval section of the GSH will confirm the conclusions made by the Navy command in of the paratroopers, military intelligence also came to the same conclusions, so that the arguments of one of the district commanders, fearing that the enemy submarines in his theater would begin to drown "his" IRC and BDK (and then he would answer for them) Not later, and only later through the General Staff, one or another USC district will receive an order to “give” its planes to its neighbors. In this chain there can be a lot of failures, each of which will lead to the loss of one of the most valuable resources in a war - time. And sometimes lead to the failure of vital action for the defense of the country.
It was here that the main striking force in the ocean areas was lost, and not only the Navy, but the Russian Armed Forces as a whole - the Navy's naval missile aircraft. She, as a branch of the armed forces, capable of maneuvering between the theater of operations, and for this reason, due to its central control, there simply was no place in the new system. Airplanes and pilots went to the Air Force, over time, the main tasks shifted to delivering attacks on ground targets with bombs, which is logical for the Air Force. That's just urgently "get" a large naval strike group of the enemy in the sea today there is nothing.


In order to ensure a quick (this keyword) maneuver by forces and means between hazardous directions, these forces and means must be controlled centrally, so that the Navy General Staff does not have any delays in terms of withdrawing forces from one direction and transferring them to others. This requires the restoration of a full naval command and control system. Surprisingly, geography also reached here, and if we want it to not prevent us from defending our country, then we will have to “adapt” to it on the command “front” as well.

There is, however, something else that the fleet can maneuver through its territory without restrictions.

Personnel.

Provisions


Once, relatively recently, the fleet had not only ships in combat, but also those on mothballing, which were supposed to replenish the military personnel of the Navy in the threatened period or in the event of war. The ship got up for mothballing after undergoing the necessary repairs, and its withdrawal from mothballing with a return to the combat personnel could be carried out very quickly.

Usually these were not the most modern ships. But, any ship is better than no ship, especially since the enemy would also put into operation far from the latest units. However, the enemy had much more.


US Navy ships in reserve. San Diego.


In those years when the fleet was large enough, it also had a significant mobilization resource, of those who had previously served in the Navy, and there was a mechanism for the quick return of these people to military service through the military commissariat system.

Today the situation has changed dramatically. There are no ships that could be put on conservation, the fleet is not enough in the combat structure of the ships, ship repair does not work as it should, and the terms for repairing the ships are almost higher than the terms for their construction. The situation with the reservists has also changed - the number of people serving in the Navy has decreased after the Navy, the country's demographic indicators and its economy do not give reason to believe that the mobilization resource of the fleet can grow significantly in the foreseeable future. Yes, and military registration and enlistment offices now do not consider people so densely, and a former sailor who has left for a better life in the neighboring city will have to look for quite a while. All this makes the possibility of a rapid increase in the fleet in case of war impossible.

Meanwhile, the availability of reserve ships quickly put into operation, and the ability to mobilize crews for them, is a critical component of naval power for a country whose fleet is divided as it is in Russia.

Yes, it is impossible to create more powerful naval groups in each of the directions than hostile or dangerous neighbors have. But to have "spare" ships, which in peacetime require a minimum of money, and before the war are quickly put into operation - in theory it is possible. Not now, of course, but the country does not live one day, and the correct principles of sea power live long.

On the other hand, even if (or when) common sense and strategic clarity prevail, and the development of the Russian Navy goes the normal way, the question remains with the number of reservists. They simply will not be in the right amount, and will not be very long.

And here we come to another solution.

Since our neighbors from the West and the East are stronger than us, since we cannot have fleets comparable with them in number (for the West, they are comparable with the total number of military units opposing us in total), then one of the answer options is the availability of combat-ready ships for conservation on each theater of operations. And, since we may find it difficult to call on a sufficient number of reservists, it is necessary to provide for maneuvers by personnel.

Suppose, during the threatened period, the Pacific Fleet is withdrawn from conservation, for example, a corvette. Formed with the involvement of mobilized sailors, the crew takes him out to sea, undergoes combat training, passes course tasks, adjusted for how actively the enemy behaves.

And when the strategic situation changes, nothing prevents a part of the same crew from being transferred to the Baltic, where they will commission the same corvette and will perform military service on it. As a result, personnel will be transferred to places where the situation is more dangerous at the moment and where ships are needed more. Only some officers will remain in the field, for example, commanders of combat units.

This idea may look exotic in someone’s eyes, but in fact there is nothing exotic in it. The ground forces have repeatedly worked out the deployment of units by transferring personnel and at the same time receiving military equipment directly on the theater. Why shouldn't the Navy do the same in the long run?

In the future, when order will be put in place in naval construction, it will be necessary to take up the formation of such reserves and development of their actions - conscription, formation of crews, withdrawal of ships from conservation, accelerated combat training, and the entry of mobilized ships into combat structure. And then - again, with the same people on 80-90%, but in a different fleet.

Naturally, such a "fire" mode of functioning of personnel should be a temporary measure, and be used to accelerate the increase in the number of combat personnel of the Navy, which would outstrip the speed of mobilization of people, and would allow maximum strength "here and now."

Another consequence of the need to have a mobilization reserve of ships is the need for the future to lay in the design of the ship the need for several decades to keep it on conservation. If the service life and the number of some scheduled repairs for this service life is now set, then it must be set that having served 75-85% of the service life, the ship will have to be repaired, mothballed and then another fifteen to twenty years with some interruptions for re-conservation, stand at the pier. Keeping both combat readiness and the ability to return to duty with minimal costs.

Let's summarize


Russian fleets are fragmented and are located at a great distance from each other. The conditions on the fleets are very different, up to serious differences in the composition of water. Different coastlines, weather, excitement, neighbors and opponents.

In such conditions, it is required to have ships slightly different from each other in different fleets. In this case, it is necessary to continue to adhere to inter-ship unification. This contradiction is resolved by unifying various ships according to subsystems as much as it is possible in principle without loss of combat effectiveness and irrational rise in price of ships.

A special problem is the inter-theater maneuver. This is due to the fact that there are countries or their alliances to the east and west of Russia, with an economy at least not inferior to the Russian one, and it is impossible to surpass them all in strength, which means that it will have to go there to create a favorable balance of forces on one theater of operations transfer forces from another.

In wartime, this, depending on the nature of the conflict, may be impossible, or impossible in time. Therefore, maneuver by ships should be carried out in advance, by deploying at sea units of ships from other fleets that would advance, even during the threatened period, to the transition to the desired theater of operations. The beginning of the threatened period should be considered the appearance of the first intelligence signs of an aggravation of the military-political situation that is being prepared by one or another country. The difference between this practice and the Soviet concept of operational squadrons - OPESK - will be only a smaller number of deployed formations, and their deployment only during the threatened period.

As a mobile reserve, which can be quickly transferred to any of the fleets and vice versa, naval aviation, both anti-submarine and strike, is used. Specialized naval aviation can increase the striking capabilities of fleets and naval formations in operations against an enemy that is superior in numbers. There are no other means that could equally rapidly strengthen the fleets in one direction or another. The need to have a powerful basic naval aviation stems from the geographical features of Russia.

In order to quickly and without spending a lot of money change the balance of forces between the enemy and the Russian Navy, the latter must have a reserve - ships for conservation and a mobilization resource that must be mobilized to the fleet. To accelerate the mobilization of the naval fleet, the same personnel can be transferred from fleet to fleet, if the situation requires it.

To manage such global actions by territorial scope, it is necessary to restore the Commander-in-Chief and the General Staff of the Navy as full-fledged and full-fledged combat command and control agencies capable of simultaneously and in real time managing operations of all fleets and naval formations at sea, including inter-naval groups, operational squadrons, and so on . Highly effective reconnaissance will also be required, capable of obtaining in advance information about the brewing dangerous actions of the enemy, necessary for the preliminary deployment of operational squadrons at sea.

These measures will minimize the negative impact of the geographical fragmentation of all the fleets of Russia, preserving the advantages of their position in the form of the impossibility of defeating them simultaneously in all military operations.

In the future, when understanding of naval issues will become the norm in Russia, all these provisions should be consolidated doctrinally.

Otherwise, the repetition of the problems of 1904-1905 is inevitable, it is only a matter of time. Knowing that everything ultimately depends on us, we will always remember the geographical factor and how it affects our domestic theory of naval power.

To be continued ...
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  1. +18
    19 September 2019 06: 00
    Great article. Even to me, far from naval problems, reading is very interesting and informative. I look forward to continuing. It is a pity that the implementation of ideas does not depend on the author.
    1. +15
      19 September 2019 06: 11
      And when the strategic situation changes, nothing prevents a part of the same crew from being transferred to the Baltic, where they will commission the same corvette and will perform military service on it.
      about the Baltic Sea is a separate issue, in the event of a conflict, we generally have one problem there, they’ll lock it up in a boiler and cover it ... most likely.
      1. +2
        19 September 2019 09: 17
        With a high degree of probability, so to speak. But there are options too - depending on the scale of the conflict and who it is with.
        1. +1
          19 September 2019 10: 52
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          But there are options

          NATO is there, so there are no options and the fleet is not needed there, it’s better to strengthen the Pacific Fleet and Northern Fleet, otherwise, for the sake of the admiral’s position, people’s money is wasted, the Baltic fleet should be KAPraz, have only a few RTOs, MPCs, minesweepers, as well as the Caspian flotilla would exist without corvettes.
          1. +3
            19 September 2019 11: 26
            Well, why only NATO, there are two neutrals. On the other hand, NATO is shaking somewhat from the affairs of Donald our Trump. Well, how will it fall apart in about fifteen years, and Vladimir? And we are sitting without an instrument of defense and attack, well, how so?

            In addition, there are other considerations, just too lazy to scribble huge comments.
            1. +3
              19 September 2019 12: 57
              Do you know how much it costs to maintain the frigate of four corvettes and two admirals and two submarines over the course of 15 years? and how old will these ships be in 15 years? ..... and how much is a bare submarine base? and to transfer several ships from fleet to fleet in peacetime is not a problem .... in 15 years, ...... if necessary .....
              1. +2
                19 September 2019 15: 20
                How much does it cost, please information.
          2. 0
            19 September 2019 22: 22
            Quote: vladimir1155
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            But there are options

            NATO is there, so there are no options and the fleet is not needed there, it’s better to strengthen the Pacific Fleet and Northern Fleet, otherwise, for the sake of the admiral’s position, people’s money is wasted, the Baltic fleet should be KAPraz, have only a few RTOs, MPCs, minesweepers, as well as the Caspian flotilla would exist without corvettes.


            The minzags should still be there ...
        2. +4
          19 September 2019 14: 25
          Alexander, why didn’t you mention the reverse “side of the coin” regarding the “isolation” of our fleets. Imagine (at least hypothetically) that the fleet does not set itself the task of accessing the oceans; it simply wants to protect the part of the coastline of Russia entrusted to it. No. Take the most “open” fleet - the Pacific. Let us mentally draw a curved line that starts from the south of Kamchatka, goes along the Kuril Islands, and then along the Japanese Islands. So, this chain of islands is a natural barrier to the penetration of the enemy fleet. It is only necessary for the Russian fleet to block the straits (and in fact, there are few of them suitable for breaking) and that’s all. The enemy fleet in a narrow strait is not able to realize its numerical advantage. Plus more plentiful minefields. I don’t even stutter about the Black and Baltic Sea, they simply clog up and actually turn into “lakes”. By the way, this is not my fantasies, the naval doctrine of the USSR (within the framework of general access, of course). So, with a “flick of the wrist” USSR Navy strategists turned our headache into our advantage fellow ! Well, in today's Russia, God himself ordered this strategy to be adopted! We have no opportunity now to plow the oceans with aircraft carriers.
          1. +5
            19 September 2019 15: 25
            the fleet does not set itself the task of accessing the oceans; it simply wants to protect the part of the coastline of Russia entrusted to it.


            The distance with which the enemy strikes along the coast starts from 1000 km. This is the time.
            A situation may arise when we ourselves will need to take active offensive actions, remember the Cuban missile crisis or the Syrian Express. These are two. And this is even more likely than a war with the United States and "defense of their shores."
            The whole article, it’s somehow about the defense of its shores, is, simply, on one side of the country, from the West or East. The problem is that it is only possible to transfer reserves for the defense of one coast from the other across the ocean.
            Collect sane grouping off the coast of Syria and prevent a blow to her - too.

            It is only necessary for the Russian fleet to block the straits (and in fact, there are few of them suitable for breaking) and that’s all.


            No, we must still prevent the enemy landing on the shores of these straits. And here it begins.

            Kuril Islands, this is not a wall, this is a boundary. The fight for him will be fierce if it comes to some sort of clash with the United States. For every island.
            1. +1
              19 September 2019 16: 32
              Airborne blockade.
              And the rest will be done by the Japanese.
              I think that when the mess with the United States (read with NATO) is not up to the islands.
              In general, you need to think about it if Korean poachers are already laying their tails on Russia, and Lavrov expresses concern.
              1. +7
                19 September 2019 18: 37
                In general, you need to think about it if Korean poachers are already laying their tails on Russia, and Lavrov expresses concern.


                They also put everything on everyone, and the same border guards systematically kill them in such incidents. It's just that this rarely gets into the news.
                1. +3
                  19 September 2019 20: 47
                  All are not very interesting.
                  An interesting attitude towards the country, thanks to which Eun is sitting in the presidential chair, and not on the handle of a shovel.
                  In the 70s, students of a certain southern country, studying with us, made a mess in the dining room. They threw bread, beat the plates.
                  They were sent home and introduced NS to the TLG from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (from their Ministry of Foreign Affairs) as if it had passed through the Ministry of Defense, where the deadlines were prescribed to former cadets from 20 and above.
                  1. +3
                    19 September 2019 21: 04
                    Eun is sitting on his chair primarily due to two things - the first is that buying it is too expensive and will not bring any profit, on the contrary, the reason to keep troops in Korea and Japan will be lost.
                    And secondly, China.

                    Well, that’s it. Russia here is only to the extent that it can, for its own benefit, anonymously let the war of the world bleed blood. No more.
                    1. +1
                      19 September 2019 22: 03
                      Well I do not know.
                      Play with Eun ....
                      There’s nothing from Vladik, with a mess, the spray will fly to Khabarovsk.
                      And then they wonder where he got rocket technology and "peanuts".
                      1. +5
                        19 September 2019 22: 37
                        So no one plays with him. For various reasons, it is beneficial for Russia, for Amer and the Chinese, and for all its overturning will be very expensive.
                        That's all.
                      2. +1
                        20 September 2019 02: 40
                        Well you say :-)
                        Experiencing nuclear and missile technology near Vladivostok?
                      3. +3
                        20 September 2019 11: 08
                        Sideways in the sense that neither he nor his overthrow is needed. Testing is a minus of course, but a united Korea will be even worse, like a war in the North
                      4. +3
                        21 September 2019 08: 05
                        After they unite for 20 years, it’s definitely not up to the missiles :-)
                        Germany has not yet decided everything.
                        And it’s bad to have an adequate and rich country in the neighbors?
                        It’s just inconvenient to compare, as Petersburgers travel to Finland :-)
                      5. +1
                        21 September 2019 17: 26
                        You seem to know Koreans poorly. These are wolves, Alexander.
                        One of the most dangerous nations in the world.
                        It's just that they are in decline now. There will not be a union like in Germany. There, the first Korean astronaut will be in the first ten years after the merger. Nuclear Weapons, ICBMs. They have more powerful destroyers than the United States. Now.
                        So mind me. We do not need such neighbors from the word "absolutely".
                      6. +1
                        21 September 2019 22: 05
                        Walled up the demons :-)
                        From the west, Poles, Balts, Ukrainians and Georgians.
                        From the east, the wolves are Koreans.
                        "and the man said, I am Russian and God wept with him" (((
                      7. +1
                        22 September 2019 14: 17
                        You are laughing, and estimate that America is gone. What will all these guys do, whom she presses to the ground with her boot and makes them build a bad copy of herself with anime and girls in short skirts?

                        This country brings us a lot of harm and the threat poses from it is very real, but the Americans did something useful. The Europeans were turned into vegetables, the Japanese were castrated and kept under the sneaker of the Koreans, extinguished Islamic civilization, not allowing it to rise.

                        This is not forever, of course, and then all these guys will roll out their bill for payment, but tearing out their piece from them somewhere in Syria now, there is no need to stagger their designs, whose existence is still beneficial to us. Such as divided Korea as well.
                      8. +3
                        22 September 2019 13: 16
                        In my opinion one of the most peaceful nations. The Japanese are the most aggressive and dangerous. The cosmonaut at southerners was already. Some woman from Gwangju. And they will not have unification. Because of attempts to establish a druba with the northerners. Kim Daejoon's rating drops in the country. He is considered a traitor who sold the country to the northerners and wished to introduce communism in his country.
                      9. -1
                        21 September 2019 21: 28
                        Experiencing nuclear and missile technology near Vladivostok?

                        What nonsense are you writing? Do you seriously believe that inadequacy can sit in the highest state post, and at the same time conduct nuclear and missile technology tests under the nose of the United States, and at the same time not ruin your country? Funny naivety.
                    2. gor
                      -2
                      20 September 2019 12: 38
                      > buying it is too expensive and will not bring any profit

                      The speed of development by the DPRK of ballistic missiles, rocket artillery, and their analogue "Iskander" says that they are being led by an extremely experienced hand, and today this hand can only be one - the hand of the Russian Federation.
                      No country in the world has such missiles as the DPRK, except for the Russian Federation. Even the United States has not developed ballistic missiles for many decades, and today they have no analogue of the Iskander.
                      The Korean party is much more complicated and RF rate is very clear - a united Korea will be a strong counterweight to Japan both militarily and economically - this is such a whip that will make the Japanese more accommodating.
                      1. +2
                        20 September 2019 13: 25
                        You’ll at least study a little what kind of missiles South Korea has, at what level the Japanese made their ballistic missiles — oh, excuse me, experimental ultra-small missile launchers launched from a truck, not a ballistic missile.

                        What is advanced about the DPRK?
                      2. gor
                        -2
                        20 September 2019 14: 49
                        > Do you at least study the question of what kind of missiles South Korea has?

                        it sounds impolite, but I will assume that you are affected by the tension from the huge thread in which you are the main participant.

                        I spoke first about baliistic missiles - in the DPRK they go in range right after the Russian Federation, the USA, and China. India has no such long-range missiles. And then, this is China and India tormented their missiles for many decades. And here in a couple of years, before our eyes, the range increased several times.
                        Does YK have an Iskander?
                      3. +2
                        20 September 2019 15: 31
                        I spoke first about baliistic missiles - in the DPRK they go in range right after the Russian Federation, the USA, and China.


                        Yes, but it must be understood that such a missile is fundamentally the level of 70 technology. And in the world there are many countries that would very quickly catch up to the DPRK if they had a need. The criterion is simple - can a country launch a satellite on its own? If so, then her technical level allows her to make long-range ballistic missiles, upon reaching a certain payload - unlimited.

                        And here we see, if desired, the DPRK with its many years of effort can quickly push France, India, Japan and Israel.

                        Regarding the South Caucasus, the range of ballistic missiles they develop is determined not by scientific and technical potential, but by special agreements with the United States. At the moment, the Americans have allowed Koreans to have cruise missiles with a range of up to 1500 km, and ballistic missiles with a range of 800.
                        Having received such permissions, the UK immediately launched the Hyunmoo-3C CR series with warhead weighing 500 kg and range of the same 1500 km, and Hyunmoo-2C BR with the same 500 kg warhead and range of 800 km.
                        It is noteworthy that the Koreans asked the United States for 1000 km.

                        In 2017, Trump lifted all restrictions on the range of Korean missiles.

                        As for the Korean Iskander, their Hyunmoo-2B / C missile is called that, at least Western experts are sure that the "head" of the missile is copied from Iskander 1 in 1.

                        Video with the launch (in the foreground, in the background the Americans shoot first).
                      4. gor
                        0
                        20 September 2019 15: 42
                        1) I am not saying that the DPRK has an unattainable technological level for everyone
                        2) I say that it is the club of nuclear powers that determines the real level of the country and its place in the world.
                        3) I'm talking about the speed of progress of the DPRK missile technologies. For India and China, progress at a similar level took decades.

                        All of these factors together indicate that Koreans are being led in a very definite direction. And the political weight of a nuclear country is incomparable with the weight of a non-nuclear country. The DPRK does what it can, and the South Caucasus does what it is allowed to do. But the DPRK may threaten the United States, but the South Caucasus does not. For the United States, the South Caucasus is rubbish, but the DPRK is a serious and dangerous enemy.

                        But generally speaking, this particular topic does not interest me too much; it was rather a comment on my part. The discussion of the article is already overloaded, so we better leave the question.
                        It’s better if there is time and what to say - comment on my main message in the discussion, where I say that I registered specifically to comment on your article
                      5. +1
                        20 September 2019 22: 02
                        3) I'm talking about the speed of progress of the DPRK missile technologies. For India and China, progress at a similar level took decades.


                        In India, it took a comparable time, but India has its own full-fledged space program, India, if it does, it will place percussion means in near-Earth orbit.
                        Like China, like Japan, and France.
                        And for the DPRK, this is unscientific fiction. In their missiles, even they themselves do not know the KVO.

                        It’s better if there is time and what to say - comment on my main message in the discussion, where I say that I registered specifically to comment on your article


                        I saw, but there is a big comment, I’ll answer later.
                      6. 0
                        28 September 2019 08: 02
                        Why does India need "long-range" missiles? They have problems with their neighbors. They have no problems with the Russian Federation and NATO
                      7. +1
                        21 September 2019 21: 36
                        the speed of development of the DPRK ballistic missiles, rocket artillery, and their analogue "Iskander" says that they are being led by an extremely experienced hand

                        In terms of 20 years could make ballistic missiles? Is this some sort of outstanding speed?
                  2. 0
                    21 September 2019 21: 24
                    An interesting attitude towards the country, thanks to which Eun is sitting in the presidential chair, and not on the handle of a shovel.

                    It would seem, but what does China have to do with it?
                2. +1
                  19 September 2019 22: 24
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  In general, you need to think about it if Korean poachers are already laying their tails on Russia, and Lavrov expresses concern.


                  They also put everything on everyone, and the same border guards systematically kill them in such incidents. It's just that this rarely gets into the news.

                  It is just necessary that no fisherman comes back ..
                  Not even a single life jacket would be left on the water.
                  This is the medical term - stopping.
                  and all
                  Poaching will stop immediately and the attacks will be armed in the same way.
                  1. -4
                    19 September 2019 22: 29
                    Killing people from fish?
                    1. +3
                      19 September 2019 22: 39
                      Quote: Town Hall
                      Killing people from fish?

                      People are killed because of principles ...
                      Principles of inviolability of borders
                      And not because of the fish. meat, land, water ...
                      I hope you understand your system error?

                      You can try to forcefully go drunk. in an unconscious (condition for you), to my apartment - and I can just shoot you. in my apartment.
                      And that is my right.
                      And I do not care that you were drunk and did not control anything.
                      You are in any condition, has no right to come to my apartment as you wish.
                      And I, seeing your inadequate condition, have the right to kill you in my apartment ...
                      just because. That this is MY apartment.
                      1. -5
                        19 September 2019 22: 43
                        There is a lot of pathos). The Criminal Code is also a set of principles which can’t be done. I don’t remember there that the death penalty was registered everywhere.
                      2. +4
                        19 September 2019 22: 47
                        Quote: Town Hall
                        There is a lot of pathos). The Criminal Code is also a set of principles which can’t be done. I don’t remember there that the death penalty was registered everywhere.

                        UK is like a harbor whore. changes to please the "winds". I remember the Criminal Code - where there were many articles with executions.
                        And this is not pathos.
                        Pathos. aimless. it is a propaganda of the value of human life ...
                        True, only those convicted of murder, that is, for the deprivation of the life of another person, feel sorry ...
                      3. -3
                        19 September 2019 22: 51
                        Crying Yaroslavl about the time when a lot of articles of execution, on a nearby branch)
                      4. +2
                        19 September 2019 23: 21
                        Quote: Town Hall
                        Crying Yaroslavl about the time when a lot of articles of execution, on a nearby branch)

                        Then the question.
                        What a fig. are you talking about this here?
                        Pure tryndinet?
                        Well, move it to the next branch.
                      5. 0
                        19 September 2019 23: 28
                        Otherwise, the shooting? laughing
                      6. +2
                        21 September 2019 21: 52
                        You can try to forcefully go drunk. in an unconscious (condition for you), to my apartment - and I can just shoot you. in my apartment.
                        And it is my right
                        And I, seeing your inadequate condition, have the right to kill you in my apartment ...
                        just because. That this is MY apartment.

                        You do not have such a right. Sit beyond the limits of self-defense
            2. +1
              20 September 2019 18: 26
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              The distance with which the enemy strikes along the coast starts from 1000 km. This is the time.
              What about
              1. Integration of combat missions in one platform. For example, a small medium landing ship armed with a pair 76-mm the cannons will also be a landing ship, and will be able to fire along the coast, and will be able to hit surface targets with artillery fire, will be able to conduct minefields and perform transport tasks.
              Shipping 76 mm? Really? The litoral is so-so.
              1. +2
                20 September 2019 20: 52
                Shipping 76 mm? Really? The litoral is so-so.


                And the paratrooper is so-so, and minzag. But one does everything.
                1. 0
                  21 September 2019 05: 17
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  But one does everything.
                  With a knife to go to a shootout - the idea is so-so!
                  1. 0
                    21 September 2019 17: 22
                    Well, not everything is so dramatic here, and he will not be alone.
                    1. 0
                      21 September 2019 18: 06
                      Quote: timokhin-aa
                      Well, not everything is so dramatic
                      You already decide:
                      Quote: timokhin-aa
                      For example, a small medium landing ship armed with a pair of 76 mm cannons will also be a landing ship, and will be able to fire along the coast, and will be able to hit surface targets with artillery fire, will be able to conduct minefields and perform transport missions.
                      и
                      Quote: timokhin-aa
                      and he will not be alone.
        3. +1
          19 September 2019 22: 21
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          With a high degree of probability, so to speak. But there are options too - depending on the scale of the conflict and who it is with.

          There are no options there. What was shown in WWII.
          1. -1
            20 September 2019 15: 33
            In WWII, something completely different was shown.
        4. 0
          15 October 2019 12: 37
          I got the impression that the whole thing boils down to flaws in command structures.
          while the industrial support for the implementation of plans simply does not exist.
          In my opinion, it is necessary to start with it and the command structures.
          The role of aviation is shown, but not enough. And I am not impressed with the arguments in favor of creating separate naval aviation forces - in my opinion, it is only necessary to create staff and reconnaissance structures that will provide pilots with tactical information on time.
          1. 0
            15 October 2019 14: 23
            while the industrial support for the implementation of plans simply does not exist.


            Well, what can Russia not build with proper funding?

            which will provide pilots with tactical information on time.


            The banal training of navigation over a non-oriented surface excludes full-fledged combat training of the Aerospace Forces for the cattle pilot. The tasks are fundamentally different, plus the interaction is built on the level of "air force control on a ship", which also makes a controversial stake on the air force.
            1. 0
              15 October 2019 14: 32
              I don’t understand what the surface situation is worse than instrument flight.
              1. 0
                15 October 2019 14: 51
                By the fact that no one really flies over land purely over instruments in real life.

                The horizon line is indistinguishable over the sea in cloudy weather, a person sees an endless gray wall in front of him, a significant part of people start to have panic attacks from this, personal feelings say one thing, the instruments are different.

                Under these conditions, it is necessary to detect a point target covered by interference and air defense in force approximately equal to the 5-10 anti-aircraft missile DIVISIONS, and mobile. Then attack.

                To teach the VKS pilot this without prejudice to his usual tasks, there should be 35-37 hours in a day. And eight business days a week.
                1. 0
                  15 October 2019 16: 08
                  I don’t believe it
                  I seemed to be engaged in navigation a bit, and including over water I did not experience any problems
                  somewhere a beacon, somewhere on a stopwatch and a map with a compass and a compass, somewhere GPS but I don’t see problems with orientation.
                  and they usually don’t find a protected target over the sea - they only detect a radio contact, then they take a bearing on 2 vectors and hit it.
                  but to do it to one pilot - at least how much you study is unrealistic.
                  here we need a second crew member ... or even more, or an airplane that will lead like a Tu-95.
                  1. 0
                    16 October 2019 12: 28
                    and they usually don’t find a protected target over the sea - they only detect a radio contact, then they take a bearing on 2 vectors and hit it.


                    And in a rocket ambush straight.
      2. +2
        19 September 2019 15: 06
        Or we lock ourselves inside and let no one go. Also an option. By BSF the same opportunity. request
        1. 0
          19 September 2019 16: 40
          As an option. But this is also supremacy at sea, all strictly according to theory.
          1. +3
            20 September 2019 00: 55
            The correct thesis from the article is the need to speed up the power (quantity) of the base aviation of the Navy. Ships are built for a long time and the saturation of these fleets will be uneven and difficult at the same Pacific Fleet - we have the main shipyards in the Baltic, and Amursky still does not build up its capabilities.
            It is naval aviation that, in the SHORTEST time, is able to increase the fleet's strike capabilities with the possibility of quick inter-naval maneuver. And the Su-30 SM is exactly the platform that you should bet on, especially if it will be upgraded (for engines and avionics) to the level of Su-35.
            1. -2
              20 September 2019 06: 34
              The correct thesis from the article is the need to speed up the power (quantity) of the base aviation of the Navy. Ships are built for a long time and the saturation of these fleets will be uneven and difficult at the same Pacific Fleet - we have the main shipyards in the Baltic, and Amursky still does not build up its capabilities.

              Yes, the trouble will be solved soon. As far as I remember, the 6th generation fighter is plus near space. Behind him is the same bomber. So he has an unlimited range, therefore all sorts of augs, guardianships and the like are not needed.
              1. +1
                20 September 2019 12: 08
                Quote: Karabas
                As far as I remember, the 6th generation fighter is plus near space. Behind him is the same bomber. So he has unlimited range,

                Why did you get this? What type of engine are you planning to send fighters into space on?
                And why are they there?
                In general, speeds close to hypersonic are already an area for unmanned delivery vehicles.
                And what is your gain in flying at high altitude and with great (albeit with hypersonic) speed? Any ground and ship radars will be perfectly visible to them, and at a much BIGER range (height - range of the radio horizon).
                Nothing to shoot today?
                So it is today. Due to the imperfection of combat algorithms and modern TTX missiles (in the United States and its allies). But these problems are just solvable, as the issues of combating high-speed high-speed (supersonic) targets were resolved in the 60s ... And aviation had to go to small and extremely small heights, diving under the radio horizon.
                If the target is WELL VISIBLE, then creating a means to intercept it is not such an impossible task.
                In addition, when flying to a speedboat of 3000 km / h or more, the problem of the thermal barrier rises to its full height, and at hypersonic speeds it cannot be solved by simple cooling. Especially for a manned vehicle.
                So they will fly. And it will be mainly unmanned disposable ... ammunition, such as "Dagger", "Zircon" and others like them. And aviation will remain at speeds in the range of 3000 - 3500 km / h. The above is simply irrational. The missiles will fly faster.
                1. +4
                  20 September 2019 15: 34
                  Any ground and ship radars will be perfectly visible to them, and at a much BIGER range (height - range of the radio horizon).


                  And an ionized trace along the entire trajectory. Hypersound and stealth are incompatible.


                  Nothing to shoot today?


                  Maneuvering - nothing. But they do not seem to be there yet.
                  1. +2
                    20 September 2019 16: 09
                    Quote: timokhin-aa

                    And an ionized trace along the entire trajectory. Hypersound and stealth are incompatible.

                    Namely, it is along the ionized track that radar tracking of the descent vehicles from orbit is provided. The P-70 in S.V. Bank (Azerbaijan, 2 RTBR) found such vehicles right over North Africa.
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    Maneuvering - nothing. But they do not seem to be there yet.

                    You do not really maneuver at such speeds, for this it is enough to look at the radius of the MiG-25 turn for 2500 - 3000 km / h. So if the goal is set, there will also be interceptor missiles, but they will be very, very expensive, especially in the performance of the US military-industrial complex.
                    And by that time we’ll come up with something new.
                    1. +2
                      20 September 2019 20: 55
                      but they will be very, very expensive, especially in the performance of the US military-industrial complex.


                      The new SM-6 unit and all
                2. -3
                  20 September 2019 18: 28
                  What type of engine are you planning to send fighters into space on?

                  Combined type of engines.
                  And why are they there?

                  To fly fast and far and much more for what.
                  In general, speeds close to hypersonic are already an area for unmanned delivery vehicles.

                  Tell the astronauts, otherwise the men don’t know. laughing
                  Any ground and ship radars will be perfectly visible to them, and at a much BIGER range (height - range of the radio horizon).

                  Yes it is. So what?
                  Nothing to shoot today?

                  S-400 only
                  If the target is WELL VISIBLE, then creating a means to intercept it is not such an impossible task.

                  Inherent problems, in principle, do not exist.
                  In addition, when flying to a speedboat of 3000 km / h or more, the problem of the thermal barrier rises to its full height, and at hypersonic speeds it cannot be solved by simple cooling. Especially for a manned vehicle.

                  Gagarin also apparently did not consult with you, radish. laughing
                  So they will fly. And it will be mainly unmanned disposable ... ammunition, such as "Dagger", "Zircon" and others like them

                  Then I agree.
                  And aviation will remain at speeds in the range of 3000 - 3500 km \ h. The above is simply irrational.

                  As for civil aviation, I agree.
                  1. +1
                    20 September 2019 22: 14
                    Quote: Karabas
                    Combined type of engines.

                    And how will this engine be arranged? Carry the oxidizing agent with you? wink
                    Quote: Karabas
                    And why are they there?

                    To fly fast and far and much more for what.

                    Fast - let's say.
                    Far - already in question (engine power and fuel consumption).
                    And for what much more?
                    As a percussion?
                    Will the armament on the external sling be packed in the fuselage?
                    And if it’s in the fuselage, then the SHOCKS WILL YOU OPEN AT SUCH SPEEDS?
                    Will it be a manned vehicle?
                    And if unmanned, then reusable or disposable?
                    And if it’s one-time, then why call it aviation, if it’s a cruise missile? AMMUNITION!

                    Quote: Karabas
                    Tell the astronauts, otherwise the men don’t know.

                    Laughter for an unreasonable reason ... Are we talking about aviation or space?
                    For young and insufficiently educated shoots - these are slightly different things. Aviation FLIES IN THE ATMOSPHERE! Which has its own density and therefore exerts some resistance when moving in it. Did not hear?
                    And from this resistance, the fuselage warms up.
                    Primarily leading edges.
                    Which have to be cooled.
                    This is what happened \ on the MiG-25, MiG-31, SR-71 and a number of other high-speed aircraft.
                    And I don’t know how to fly astronauts and land astronauts by hearsay - he himself provided their landing for three years.
                    Quote: Karabas
                    Any ground and ship radars will be perfectly visible to them, and at a much BIGER range (height - range of the radio horizon).

                    Yes it is. So what?

                    What kind of education do you have a young man?
                    Do you have anything to do with air defense?
                    What is the lighting of the aerospace setting you know?
                    Right?
                    And the importance of this lighting for the implementation of the KB?
                    Is it pride? Swearing at your incompetence?
                    Quote: Karabas
                    Nothing to shoot today?

                    S-400 only

                    And the upcoming S-500. They have problems, not ours. I wrote about this.
                    Quote: Karabas
                    In addition, when flying to a speedboat of 3000 km / h or more, the problem of the thermal barrier rises to its full height, and at hypersonic speeds it cannot be solved by simple cooling. Especially for a manned vehicle.

                    Gagarin also apparently did not consult with you, radish.

                    As you would expect - education below the plinth. Victim of the exam?
                    I knew people communicating with Gagarin, then he headed the lunar detachment of Soviet cosmonauts (after his death, Leonov took this post). These people created the lunar lander module for the Soviet program.
                    Quote: Karabas
                    And aviation will remain at speeds in the range of 3000 - 3500 km \ h. The above is simply irrational.

                    As for civil aviation, I agree.

                    No, it’s about military aviation, and civilian is unlikely to exceed 2100 - 2200 km \ h - at these speeds you can still do without cooling the front edges.
                    And in military aviation, these speeds are limited by the temperature that the lanterns of the cockpit can withstand.

                    Read those fiction less (from cheers-journalists) and study sopromat more.
                    1. -3
                      20 September 2019 22: 31
                      What kind of education do you have a young man?
                      Do you have anything to do with air defense?
                      What is the lighting of the aerospace setting you know?
                      Right?
                      And the importance of this lighting for the implementation of the KB?
                      Is it pride? Swearing at your incompetence?

                      As you would expect - education below the plinth. Victim of the exam?

                      After that, you won’t get any answers from me. These are insults. I’m not going to increase the level of your knowledge and I don’t see the point in it, because your goal is not to ask to at least somehow replenish your meager knowledge, but to scream, insult and write more by throwing in a pile for the convincingness of your children's arguments and to make it more difficult to answer. In general, I generally never usually answer more than one question at a time, so in your case all the indulgences are exhausted.
                    2. +1
                      28 September 2019 08: 22
                      Do not comment. The level of your opponent shkolota from Lenta.ru
            2. gor
              +2
              20 September 2019 12: 49
              > the need for an early build-up of the power (number) of the base aviation of the Navy

              The main problem of fighting the fleet far from the coast is TsU. To fully counter the fleet, airplanes must form a large flying radar, if several ZGRL are needed, in order to know where to look for enemies, and to see the fleet for about 1000 km.
              Considering that today everyone will have AFAR, this is basically a solvable task

              The decision, depending on how many radars will be placed on airplanes - I mean the last option is smart cladding like on the Su-57, will greatly increase the cost of airplanes and their software. But nevertheless, only aviation allows performing the inter-theater maneuver with firepower
              1. 0
                20 September 2019 13: 11
                Overhead reconnaissance containers of three types came into service with aviation, including naval ones: radar reconnaissance (two-sided AFAR), radio engineering and optical-peplovizionny. Weight - 2 tons, for carriers - Su-30 and Su-34. So the usual base Su-30 and Su-34 become practically a means of AWACS, including over the sea.
                Also, the "Altius" that flew the same has a payload of just 2 tons, which makes it possible to place the same container on its suspension or mount it in the UAV fuselage itself and get an AWACS that loiters for up to 48 hours, without distracting more expensive and complex AWACS aircraft (A-50 \ 100) where the characteristics of the Altius equipment will be enough.
                As for the Su-57, if it turns on its "Squirrel" at all 360 degrees, it will shine on enemy radars like a Christmas tree ... and goodbye stealth. He still has somewhat different tasks than acting as an AWACS aircraft.
                But over his sea (Su-57) abilities would be very useful.
                1. gor
                  0
                  20 September 2019 13: 16
                  > As for the Su-57

                  I talked about something else - flying planes should form a certain distributed flying radar. The signal from all of them should be summed and processed as a whole
                  1. +1
                    20 September 2019 13: 29
                    If with a dispersed search, then perhaps yes, but at the same time they will all light up themselves. Another thing is when the lighting of the air / surface situation is carried out by a dedicated outfit - drones with powerful intelligence or individual planes with hanging containers. And the rest of the battle group at the same time barraging at low altitude in the radio silence mode, waiting for target designation for the attack.
                    So it will be more reliable and accurate.
                    A deployed system, above the sea and with radar on ... it’s possible to do without fish, but you need to remember that such an aircraft / aircraft will be detected much earlier (by bearing on radiation) than the aircraft themselves will detect the target. And ... voila feel Yes
                    1. gor
                      0
                      20 September 2019 14: 43
                      all this is understandable - but the issue with the Central Administration has only one solution, in which you will be seen from afar. But we also find out who is where.
                      And then the one with the longer arm wins.
                      1. 0
                        20 September 2019 15: 51
                        There are many solutions. This is a satellite constellation (not only optics or radar, but also radio-technical reconnaissance by the triangulation method - AUG, KUG or just an individual ship has its own personal portrait on RT signature), and base and carrier-based aircraft with RT, radar or optical reconnaissance, and UAVs, and direct tracking reconnaissance ships ... All of them can give target designation \ target coordinates for weapons - RCC, attack aircraft, multi-purpose submarines with missile or torpedo weapons.
                        But when the ships of the main classes are unacceptably small, it is aviation that allows you to level the chances in the fight against the superior forces of the enemy fleet / opponents.
                      2. gor
                        0
                        20 September 2019 15: 55
                        Well, that's exactly what I’m saying, how can aviation independently, without a fleet, solve the TsU issue :-)
            3. 0
              15 October 2019 14: 34
              with all the advantages of the su-27 family, their range for marine tasks is insufficient
          2. +1
            21 September 2019 16: 08
            Means for this will be needed much less. Mine production, 2038x corvettes and MRK. A lot of MRC and corvettes. At the Black Sea Fleet still a dap. In the Baltic with its depths only if mini submarines. For ordinary deaths, Baltika is a mass grave. Do not hide.
    2. 0
      19 September 2019 10: 00
      But it depends on society as a whole. Remember the statement of Marx from a previous article
      1. 0
        20 September 2019 00: 58
        Quantity in quality?
        Marx was still that "lover of Russia", but the fact that many of the ideas expressed on the forums of this site are eventually implemented ... it's still a fact.
      2. gor
        -1
        20 September 2019 13: 11
        I registered only to discuss your article, by the way!

        > But it depends on society as a whole

        you are an interesting author ... and a person.
        We decided to analyze the concepts of the highest level associated with the fleet, but forgot about what is higher than this, and therefore you do not see the reasons why the fleet in the Russian Federation / USSR is either flourishing or rapidly degrading.

        The fleet is a global weapon for a country such as the Russian Federation / RI / USSR. As the country's leadership sees its role in global issues, the navy is assigned such a role. I’ll talk about RI separately, about the USSR everything is obvious, a country without fools strove for a global role, therefore it quickly dealt with the fleet when material resources allowed
        I will talk about the situation with the Russian Federation, based on the point of view of M. Khazin and his theory global projects, which is a modernized version of the principles of geopolitics of V. Lenin, which he outlined in his work "Imperialism as the Highest Stage of Capitalism" - the division of the world into closed technological zones / economic clusters, which compete with each other
        So, from the point of view of M. Khazin, only over the past few years, the Russian Federation has been striving to completely return subjectivity in all areas. But even now, a 5-1 column controls the entire economy of the country.
        The fleet is the price that the Russian authorities paid for returning the combat readiness of the army in their internal disassembly. And the destruction of the subjectivity of the fleet, manifested in the management structure that you wrote about in your past articles, is a manifestation of precisely this intra-elite compromise / bargaining / war.

        But now there is an upward trend, and the fleet will gain its subjectivity, and your articles will be in demand.
        Now about RI. Each nation (people / ethnos is a completely different matter, L. Gumilyov rules there), from the point of view of modern Western political science, this myth system.
        The theory of the formation of the Russian state from the Normans / Vikings is a national myth about the origin of the Russian people. That is, the Russian people are formed from a third-rate Western people - this is a description of the position of the Russian elite relative to the Western, this is a vassal oath. Under this myth, the entire system of relations with the West is formatted.

        And the policy of Alexander I, who killed his father for the sake of English interests and dragged the country into a war with Napoleon for the sake of English interests, is the best proof of what I said. It is clear that in such a coordinate system, Alexander I was to destroy the fleet, despite the dominant position of the Republic of Ingushetia in the world of that time.
        1. +1
          21 September 2019 19: 58
          The fleet is a global weapon for a country such as the Russian Federation / RI / USSR. As the country's leadership sees its role in global issues, the navy is assigned such a role. I’ll talk about RI separately, about the USSR everything is obvious, a country without fools strove for a global role, therefore it quickly dealt with the fleet when material resources allowed


          Well, right now, we are battling with the United States in Venezuela, on another continent, in Syria, unattainable bypassing third countries differently than by sea, potentially in the same Libya, as well as purely military threats in the Kuril Islands and Kaliningrad. The demand for the fleet for both politics and defense is obvious.

          But it is not like a solid combat vehicle. There is a contradiction with your fundamental argument. Do you need to disassemble further?
    3. +1
      19 September 2019 18: 08
      In Russia, there are always people who are able to correctly assess the situation, it is a pity that, as a rule, in a combat situation they die first. This happened to Admiral Makarov.
  2. +3
    19 September 2019 06: 08
    Thank! Interesting, right and sad ...
  3. Cry
    0
    19 September 2019 06: 23
    In this article, the old thinking of "walking along parallels" has been overcome and reminded of the Northern Ocean, through which America is a stone's throw away for rockets along the meridian.
    1. +10
      19 September 2019 09: 26
      With transitions along the NSR there are difficulties, and considerable.

      First of all, ice. In the last crossing, Kulakov caught a blow into the fairing of the CEO, although the season was warm and icebreaking was.
      The second point is the depths. So, a submarine can pass the Bering Strait only in the water position. The eastern part of the Arctic Ocean and the North Pacific are shallow, sometimes less than 40 meters.
      The third is the USA. Chasing forces through the NSR is only possible if the United States permits this or if they cannot prevent such a transition by force, which requires the defeat of their forces in Alaska. A difficult task, to say the least.

      So all the same, in parallel, mainly (although not only). But you have to choose the moment.
      1. 0
        19 September 2019 13: 37
        The second point is the depths. So, a submarine can pass the Bering Strait only in the water position. The eastern part of the Arctic Ocean and the North Pacific are shallow, sometimes less than 40 meters.

        Hmm .... to dig your little canal for the passage of military vessels from the Arctic Ocean, bypassing the Bering Strait, but immediately into the Sea of ​​Okhotsk)))
        It is a pity that there are distances too large for the channel)))
        1. gor
          0
          20 September 2019 13: 27
          > It's a pity that the distances there are too large for the channel)))

          Now there is a development of an ekranoplan with a total weight of 1000 tons - quite a flying RTO. He will fly by :-)
      2. Cry
        -1
        20 September 2019 06: 01
        Dear, whether the USA wants or does not want, but the shortest path on the ball is still a geodesic, and it runs through the North Pole, i.e. along the meridian, and not along the Arctic Circle, since the length of the diameter is shorter than half the circumference by pi = 3.14 ...
      3. -1
        20 September 2019 17: 32
        In the Bering Strait, a dam should be carried out together with the States and the passage of the entire waterfowl should be controlled. At the same time, it will be possible to put powerful hydroelectric units on it and pump out the surface fresh layer from the Arctic Ocean, thereby reducing its glaciation.
  4. +13
    19 September 2019 06: 55
    The reality is that Russia is a continental power with problems on oceans!
    You just need to realize this and ..... and then the options! To live in such a systematic manner that we can \ need, or we tear navels with an unpredictable result ???
    Thanks to the author, interesting.
  5. +12
    19 September 2019 06: 56
    So, Mr. Timokhin pleases us with a new article, which, by its very title, aims to bring a new stream into the musty atmosphere of naval theoretical thought. "Building a fleet" !!! That is, before the Timokhin Fleet was not built ... Suppose the genius of Timokhin. But questions arise on the topic. So ... Let's start with the first part, which I did not have a chance to comment on because of the next ban.
    “Why do some societies know how to maintain combat effectiveness at sea for decades and centuries ... and others, having spent a lot of money and resources, building ships and training personnel, then miss all this, lose, leaving only frames of the chronicle and once formidable aircraft-carrying cruisers turned into a foreign land into amusement parks? ” The key word here is “society” and the answer lies not in the plane of naval science and practice, but in those internal processes that lead precisely to the collapse of the navy. The backwardness of the political power of Spain and the modernization of the political structure of England led to the defeat of the first and the rise of the second. The defeat of Rozhdestvensky’s squadron under Tsushima and the loss of the fleet in Port Arthur are also largely the result of the rapid modernization of Japanese society and the Russian slumber. The collapse of the Soviet system and the loss of the leading role of the CPSU, the collapse of the power of the Soviets led to the collapse of the USSR and, naturally, to the destruction of industry, bases and fleet. The root cause in society, not in the naval defense sector. Not to understand this for a person who claims to create a theory of naval art is simply not permissible.
    The author’s usual attitude towards those who disagree with him is “many not very smart people” ... but does the author consider himself to be “very smart” people? Or such a passage in the very first lines: “All this is not entirely true. Almost not true. ” Can it be more logical to first prove your case, and only then to say that there is truth?
    According to the author, "the line lies in the understanding of both society and the military-political leadership of just a few simple principles." But, as a rule, both society and the naval leadership follow state policy, and not vice versa? Strange passage.
    And then the respected author declares something very strange: “The United States was what not very perspicacious people called the words“ continental power ”- a huge subcontinent, the main wealth of which, as well as the vector of the efforts of the population are on their land.” Well, not very perspicacious people ... I have never met the statement of these not very perspicacious about the "continentality of the United States." The United States, let it be known to Mr. Timokhin, is washed almost completely by the waters of the oceans and to call it a continental state is to put itself on a par with Rezun, who introduced thirty five-ton T-35 (t) tanks and who himself began to destroy this myth. And it’s not worth insulting the Americans — because of their continuity, they were always simply forced to build cargo, passenger, and military vessels. If Timokhin forgot, then the first attack of the submarine, and the first battles of armored monitors in the asset of the naval glory of the United States. Yes, the fleet developed after gaining independence and long before the victory over Spain. And the victory over Spain lies in the plane rather political than naval. The backward monarchy did not survive against the young toothy industrial democracy.
    Following the logic of the author, non-continental powers such as Indonesia, the Philippines, Malaysia and so on should have great naval theories and, accordingly, victorious fleets. It’s a paradox, but the neighbors of the USA - Canada, Mexico, Argentina, etc. were not great marine powers. But island Britain completely lost its status safely ... Maybe everything is not so simple in a few simple truths?
    1. +6
      19 September 2019 10: 56
      Quote: LeonidL
      Maybe everything is not so simple in a few simple truths?

      I agree, Timokhin’s theory is lame, he builds logic not from tasks, but from his stereotypes and Wishlist
      1. +1
        19 September 2019 13: 38
        Envy, envy ... :-)
        I would like to read your stereotypes and Wishlist.
      2. +1
        24 September 2019 03: 58
        Because, instead of knowing and understanding what the sea, the ship and the fleet, Timokhin has the enthusiasm of graphomania on issues on which he decided that he understands after reading a couple of books.
    2. +3
      19 September 2019 14: 17
      Quote: LeonidL
      The United States, let it be known to Mr. Timokhin, is washed from almost all sides by the waters of the oceans and to call it a continental state is to put yourself on a par with Rezun

      However, before Roosevelt the First Navy for the United States was something secondary.
      Quote: LeonidL
      If Timokhin forgot, then the first attack of the submarine, and the first battles of armored monitors in the asset of the naval glory of the United States.

      Against the backdrop of European fleets from the time of the Great Patriotic War in the USA, the scale of battles on the sea of ​​the North and the South is not particularly impressive.
      In addition, monitors are not a fleet. These are coastal defense forces, in fact, coastal defense floating batteries. Start building the US Navy at the end of the XNUMXth century. And before that, they were busy with land problems on the continent.
      1. -6
        19 September 2019 16: 45
        It was the monitors that were the forerunners of the battleships, battle cruisers, battleships.
        1. +1
          19 September 2019 17: 54
          Quote: LeonidL
          It was the monitors that were the forerunners of the battleships, battle cruisers, battleships.

          Not all. Another way of developing the development of tower BRs came from barbet BRs, which in turn grew from casemate BRs. There was nothing to do with monitors.
          1. -3
            20 September 2019 02: 01
            There were two types of monitors - in the southerners it was casemate and barbet, in the northerners - tower.
            1. +1
              20 September 2019 13: 41
              Quote: LeonidL
              There were two types of monitors - in the southerners it was casemate and barbet, in the northerners - tower.

              And what were the Southerners barbet monitors?
              Barbet ships - this is France, the beginning of the 70s of the XIX century. Do not confuse them with the parapet: one barbet protects one gun mount, and the parapet protects the AU group.
    3. -6
      19 September 2019 16: 37
      Quote: LeonidL
      The backwardness of the political power of Spain and the modernization of the political structure of England led to the defeat of the first and the rise of the second. The defeat of Rozhdestvensky’s squadron under Tsushima and the loss of the fleet in Port Arthur are also largely the result of the rapid modernization of Japanese society and the Russian slumber. The collapse of the Soviet system and the loss of the leading role of the CPSU, the collapse of the power of the Soviets led to the collapse of the USSR and, naturally, to the destruction of industry, bases and fleet. The root cause in society, not in the naval defense sector. Not to understand this for a person who claims to create a theory of naval art is simply not permissible.

      blah blah blah (shorter verbal diarrhea)
      ONCE AGAIN - there is a clear and concrete example from OUR history - the victory of the Northern War by the POVERTY (at the time of the outbreak of the war) Russia from one of the main "European players" (which was many times superior to us - initially)
      Benefit from clever strategists, "Peter's genius", intelligent construction and use of the fleet
    4. -1
      19 September 2019 22: 51
      Quote: LeonidL
      So, ...

      a lot of stupid letters ...
      I wanted to say something ...
    5. +2
      20 September 2019 01: 19
      Well, about the "continental" of the United States, the author most likely spoke out on the basis of the doctrine ... of the "isolationism" of the United States, when it, being a young, weak, sparsely populated and insufficiently rich country, chose the doctrine of isolationism (non-intervention in European affairs) to accumulate forces and means for future achievements. And she succeeded.
      Here it is necessary to take into account the nature / nature of its elites and the super-task that they (elites) put before it (USA).
      But in principle, the author’s analysis of the current state of the Russian fleet and a retrospective analysis of the history of the development of the Russian fleet is correct.
      It’s necessary to build a fleet and still have to.
      To make him stronger than his main opponents in each direction is unlikely to succeed.
      Therefore, a bet can only be made on optimizing efforts and expenses and inter-naval maneuver ... Mainly for the Navy. With which you need to give priority attention at this stage, because the result will be fast and most effective. And everything else - works for the medium / long term - the fleet is being built LONG.
    6. gor
      +1
      20 September 2019 13: 30
      the author’s theory is quite working - you don’t have to spread rot for understanding global issues.

      He just forgot that the fleet is a global weapon, and if the country does not see its global role, then it does not need a fleet!
      1. 0
        28 September 2019 08: 30
        I agree with one exception. Seeing and being able to do different things.
  6. +10
    19 September 2019 06: 57
    “There are centuries-old principles for building naval power. They are known and well described in the theoretical literature. They can be challenged, but not challenged. It is impossible, because there is no country so powerful in the naval sense that would ignore them. And there is no country that, even if instinctively or even unconsciously, following them, would not have received the “rise” of its sea power. Examples have numbers. Three examples. Proof of type "This is the truth because it is the truth." "The teachings of Marx are invincible because they are true." "True because they are invincible!" However, "There is an answer!" The author, of course!
    The following paragraph, the reader just needs to carefully read “... a theory adapted to Russian characteristics was finally formulated a little later - after the Civil War. Until the very beginning of World War II, it was left without practical application, which had terrible consequences for our Motherland. But its individual echoes, partially embodied in practice, created the USSR's nuclear missile fleet, capable of operating anywhere in the world’s oceans, albeit with a number of restrictions. ” That is, in the Russian Empire there was no naval theory. But what about the names of Ushakov, Nakhimov, Kornilov? Where is Chesma, Gangut, Sinop ...? If it was formulated after the Civil War, then why was left without use after the Patriotic War? Suppose so. But not taking into account the economic opportunities of the USSR after the Civil War and comparing it with the possibilities before the Great Patriotic War and after the Great Patriotic War is simply not quite decent. Yes, and the very definition of "echoes" .... Well, such dumb people were leading both the country and the Navy ... but now Timokhin has appeared!
    Omit the enthusiasm for the foreign theorists of the long bygone past. Their theories have sunk into oblivion along with the scientific achievements of those years, with the geopolitical situation of that time, and building a new one with eyes on the back of the head is at least strange. Moreover, what is applicable and perfectly corresponds to those countries, those fleets, and at that time does not at all fit into the conditions of today. Ponder what constitutes TRUTH: “Two simple principles. As a result, the fleet is intended for battle with another fleet (Mehan), and its purpose is to establish dominance at sea, that is, on sea lanes (Corbett) - in any way, including by destroying enemy forces in battle. ” The key word is "battle." What kind of battle can we talk about in modern realities? In the case of war, there is no time or place for a “battle" in the classical sense. The Russian fleet cannot even dream of supremacy at sea without a naval base, as well as the destruction of enemy forces in battle. Let’s be realistic - there will be no strength in the foreseeable future either with the NATO fleets or with the PRC fleet due to a lag in the economy, in the industrial base and simply by the number of military units. Why cast a shadow on the wattle fence? Why illustrate everything with interesting pictures that have nothing to do with the text? Why immediately define the country's leadership and the command of the Navy as not understanding common truths: “There is an understanding of these things at all levels of command and power in the camp - there is the so-called“ sea power ”.
    With all due respect to Nikolai Lavrentievich Klado, I want to remind readers that the efforts of this gentleman in Russian society raised a wave of discussion of a new program for reconstructing the fleet. The public waved their hats and umbrellas, newspapers and magazines ... The State Duma thought and raged ... as a result of such public activity, the rearmament program was never finalized and was not completed. It seems that the author is also trying to drag the naval affairs into as much ardent public as possible, which has never led anyone to good. As a result, some activity was observed only on the Black Sea, and then after the commissioning of modern battleships, and not the social activity of Gervais with the company, the battleships would very likely be put into operation before the war. Then there would be no shame in front of Goeben and Breslau.
    The theoretical views of B. Gervais can be described very briefly and concisely: the following is such an elementary basis of VM theory that they should not be chewed. That's right ... in the theory of good intentions. I wonder how Comrade Gervais intended to realize all this good in metal? But Comrade Stalin tried ... Many in the comments reproach Hitler for building super-battleship tanks instead of armadas, but Germany had clear reasons for this and the possibility of launching large ships into the ocean both for cruising-raiding and for protecting communications, although before battles like The Jutland affair did not reach. But the super-battleships of Comrade Stalin were not realized at all, but if they were implemented in Nikolaev, where would they swim and with whom did they fight? With landing barges and torpedo boats?
    Gervais wrote everything correctly and the actions of the Allies in WWII confirmed this ... but with what edge could this be used by the USSR Navy in WWII? In the Baltic? So there they immediately began to build a mine-artillery position! On the Black Sea? We tried in the early days with shelling of Constanta ... The Black Sea is not the Atlantic. How to apply these smart conclusions to today? We read carefully: ““ In case of offensive tasks, naval force must certainly strive for supremacy at sea, that is, to destroy the enemy fleet or to close his exit from the harbors. In the case of defensive tasks, the naval force should mainly strive to maintain its combat effectiveness and freedom of access to the sea, i.e. to prevent the enemy from dominating the sea. ” Again, dominance of the sea ... perhaps on the Black Sea and then with the neutrality of Turkey in the war against Ukraine with the non-intervention of NATO. In any other situation, the Black Sea is locked. Baltic? The Russian Federation is not the USSR with the Warsaw Treaty and domination is possible over the Marquise Puddle, even the supply of Kaliningrad and the naval base is difficult and in doubt, most likely they are facing a complete blockade. Although I think that I simply won’t have time to get to this - the rocket-space-nuclear war is fleeting and without winners. Northern Fleet? Yes, he needs and possibly defends his communications, above all, the NSR. In the Far East, the only thing is to ensure that the nuclear submarine fleets enter the ocean, but again ... only if they manage to do so in the prewar period. What can you do, these are the realities. Therefore, the task of building the Fleet should not be magical, based on the long-obsolete ideas of "sea battle", but realistic, based not on the theories of past wars, so intensely preached by Timokhin, but on asymmetric latest weapon systems that provide not a hypothetical and incredible victory in a war on the sea, and a very real opportunity to avoid war with the help of such weapons! This is the wisdom of the leadership - to prevent a total defeat of the country, not to get involved in an arms race, to create warships that are really needed and "affordable", ships displaying their flag, performing military-political tasks and, to the extent possible, complementing the efforts of diplomacy with a demonstration of weapons . As the experience of Syria shows.
    The mechanical replacement of “just battleships” by aircraft carriers does not stand up to criticism, just a battleship does not require such a level of technology, science and industry as an aircraft carrier, and they are not needed to protect coastal communications - NSR, Far East, they don’t have the necessary infrastructure bases, they don’t they are lifting the budget. Again tear and fly into the pipe? Ruin the Russian Federation as the ruin of the USSR? A strange approach for such a patriot as Mr. Timokhin!
    Of course, Aleksandr Petrovich Aleksandrov (Avel Pinhusovich Bar, although it is considered not very decent in a decent society to disclose pseudonyms), immediately raises his name with a doubt about seaworthiness and somewhere, even a sort of feeling ... But, let's read into what Timokhin considers the most disgusting in him theories: “Criticism basically boiled down to the following: it is useless to try to destroy the enemy fleet, all the same the power of the productive forces is such that the enemy will quickly recover all losses, and no establishment of domination will be impossible, which means that we must abandon the desire to ensure supremacy at sea, and begin create a new theory of maritime operations that is “relevant to practical tasks.” But here is an example of Pearl Harbor, when the United States not only recovered losses, but also strengthened its fleet many times, and Liberty-type transport ships generally baked like donuts. But neither Germany nor Japan could do this. With all the professionalism of both German and Japanese naval commanders. T e again - it is not a matter of VM theory and practice, not of postulates, but of the level of industrial production, in the level of economics, in the social system. How not to stick to the most good postulates, but the one who produces more ships and they are better wins. It is not clear why a highly educated author did not notice such a blatant fact?
    1. -3
      19 September 2019 14: 55
      Quote: LeonidL
      That is, in the Russian Empire there was no naval theory. But what about the names of Ushakov, Nakhimov, Kornilov? Where is Chesma, Gangut, Sinop

      as they say - do not smack nonsense, it hurts
      there was nothing similar to the "theory", and in fact it led to a lot of SHAME of the drowning of its own fleet in the Crimean War
      questions were remarkably sorted out by Sergey Makhov
      https://george-rooke.livejournal.com/889392.html
      We decided to close the Kerch Strait predictably. Flush the court. First, the ships bought from merchants were flooded. Naturally, the merchants did not give their best ships, and they bought dilapidated ones, therefore they fell apart predictably. Just in October 1854 of the year. And further ... Further, Rear Admiral Metlin began to sink the Caucasian patrol cruiser one by one. Together with guns. And send commands to the land front. Well, to support the fence. This decision caused wild rage in Kornilov: “In general, we seemed to have hit the other extreme: until now, incomprehensible carelessness reigned everywhere, and now everyone has embarked on extravagant plans; imagine that across the outer Kerch fairway, against the Pavlovsk battery, 34 ships are being stoked, including Caucasian transports; I am surprised that they leave the steamboats, and even they should have been flooded ... ” That is while in Sevastopol Nakhimov drowned battleships in a Stakhanovian way (for which he received a specific wick from Kornilov), Metlin did the same on the Sea of ​​Azov.
      The results of this decision were very deplorable - when Lyons' flying squadron entered the Sea of ​​Azov in April 1855 - he became the absolute master in the Sea of ​​Azov. Had we had 34 Caucasian cruisers with experienced teams there, it would have become a horror for the British. They acted in twos or triples, and large ships simply could not be entered into the Sea of ​​Azov with its standard depth of 7-8 meters.

      https://george-rooke.livejournal.com/861420.html
      As we all understand, the parent of the Russian fleet did not leave any clear instructions on the reasons for its construction and its role in the Russian defense system. Yes, Peter has statements about the role of the fleet, but they are most often situational, and speak only about a specific situation. Therefore, you and I will have to dance from the instructions of the king regarding his use, and the real events that took place. That is, trying to understand logic (if it was) through action.
      The first thing that fits into the logic of events is the 1700 year. Peter had two clear examples when the fleet of another country essentially decided the outcome of a campaign or war. Naturally, we are talking about the actions of the Anglo-Dutch fleet against Denmark (when the allies simply decided the outcome of the war) and the transportation of the contingent of Charles XII from Sweden to the Baltic by the Swedish fleet (in fact, this determined the collapse of the Russian campaign near Narva). Obviously, these two moments had a huge impact on Peter, and the fleet (after the conquest of the Baltic states) began to be built precisely because of the task of covering the sea flank of the ground forces.
      But then Peter takes a step forward - taking advantage of the fact that the Swedish naval fleet is associated with the war with Denmark (since 1711), and the Swedes do not have a galley fleet, he builds a large number of mosquito fleets and begins the tactics of raids on Swedish territories in Finland, in Aland , and then in Sweden itself. This strategy turns out to be very successful, and the Swedes are literally tired of it. The main thing is that a strategic decision has been worked out in advance: "To ruin Finland mercilessly so that there is something to give." That is, in 1715, Peter already knew what he would take from Sweden in case of victory. See the same requirements at the Åland Congress.
      But we are about the fleet.
      Throughout the period 1711-1721, the purely defensive tasks of the fleet are traced. These are "fleet in bin", the protection of trade convoys to Russia, and "hit and run" by superior forces in the event of the appearance of small Swedish naval detachments. And also the help of the army from the sea in the sieges of fortresses (Danzig, Kolberg). In principle, the fleet performed this task calmly, both during the reign of Peter and after.
      Problems began under Catherine, when the fleet was required to take active action in distant seas. But ... this is bad luck. He was not built for this in principle. In addition, the teams and commanders did not have experience of long trips, the supply was adjusted only for coastal operations, etc.
      And immediately there were difficulties.

      https://george-rooke.livejournal.com/845788.html
      https://george-rooke.livejournal.com/846352.html
      neither under Peter nor under Catherine the task of construction was formulated. Built on the basis of the current moment. And only Nicholas I introduced the concept of long-term planning into the everyday life of building the Russian fleet.

      https://george-rooke.livejournal.com/847309.html
      the fight was really on an equal footing. For - suddenly! - the sailors and captains did not know that the British could not be defeated, that according to some bloggers "Russia is not allowed to fight at sea in general", they just did what they knew how. What difference does it make who to shoot at? An Englishman dies in exactly the same way as a Turk.
      But note - this is not fleet policy, but an initiative that, as you know, without the approval of the command fucks the initiator.
      And finally meeting 9 September. The fleet leader is gone. Plans are broken. It’s forbidden to fight. There are squabbles inside the fleet that have not yet escaped, but are about to. At the same time - we do not forget - there is no longer any cover in the form of Lazarev, and if anything - they will be judged by the Charter, which preaches only unconditional submission and caution.

      https://george-rooke.livejournal.com/603030.html
      https://george-rooke.livejournal.com/603610.html
      https://george-rooke.livejournal.com/604184.html
      https://george-rooke.livejournal.com/604743.html
      https://george-rooke.livejournal.com/605046.html
      etc.
      1. -1
        19 September 2019 22: 56
        Quote: Fizik M

        https://george-rooke.livejournal.com/604743.html
        https://george-rooke.livejournal.com/605046.html
        etc.

        Maksim. you are now convinced. by the number of cons. that on this site, with the approval of the moderator, there is a whole team of note-taking "urya-patriots" who collectively distribute minuses to all inappropriate, and distribute pluses to themselves?
        Svarog, why put the site in the trash of those who crush money and, accordingly, number?
        After all, the same will soon lose your job ..
        And about the face for a long time already ...
    2. -2
      19 September 2019 15: 03
      Quote: LeonidL
      e as much as possible ardent public that never brought anyone to good. As a result, some activity was observed only in the Black Sea, and then after the commissioning of modern battleships, and not social activity Gervais with companythen the battleships would very likely be put into operation before the outbreak of war. Then there would be no shame in front of Goeben and Breslau.

      fool
      "he confuses kings with aces" lol
      Lenya, you are completely fool ??
      You would before tormenting the keyboard with your nonsense wassat who was Gervais walking and when he acted he wrote and in what fleet!!!!

      And also Lenya, "whose cow would bellow," but yours about the "oath", "officers", etc. - would be QUIETLY SILENT.
      For all your diarrhea of ​​consciousness in these comments is so stupid Nonsense that you do not just carry nonsense (whipping Gervais (from Navy of the Red Army) to "discussions about dreadnoughts" RIF (!!!), you just LIE, pulling Treasure to her.
      I have a very mixed attitude to the figure of Klado, but when some lying monsieur just BELIEVE LIE by braiding it "for furniture", these monsieurs will get SPACKED in full
    3. -3
      19 September 2019 15: 10
      Quote: LeonidL
      Before us is the example of Pearl Harbor, when the United States not only recovered losses, but also strengthened its fleet many times.

      I will disappoint you
      for to P-X there is a wonderful example of an "exchange of views" between Kimmel and Nimitz "immediately after" - to the fact that if the Japanese had brought the US fleet into "open battle" into the ocean, for the United States it would have been a disaster (in the loss of not ships, and by CREWS, whose factor in 1942-43 played a decisive role in the rapid commissioning of new ships of the US Navy)
      + pristine fuel storage tanks PX ...
      Quote: LeonidL
      T e again - it is not a matter of VM theory and practice, not of postulates, but of the level of industrial production, in the level of economics, in the social system. How not to stick to the most good postulates, but the one who produces more ships and they are better wins. It is not clear why a highly educated author did not notice such a blatant fact?

      Monsieur Lenya!
      It is not clear how Monsieur "tormented" a bunch of bukfffs in stupid and deceitful comments, he simply "DID NOT NOTICE" absolutely disproportionate economic potential of Russia and Sweden at the beginning of the Northern War! Yes, towards its end everything changed the other way around, but it happened only thanks to the action, STRATEGIES of Peter the Great, incl. regarding construction and application of our fleet!
      1. 0
        20 September 2019 15: 36
        which factor in 1942-43gg played a decisive role in the quick commissioning of new ships of the US Navy)
        + pristine fuel storage tanks PX ...


        Plus the docks. Amers did not have docks closer to PX. There was nowhere to be repaired.
    4. 0
      24 September 2019 04: 05
      Timokhin is a stubborn and rather ignorant fan of aircraft carriers, he, obviously, in his life was not at least on any large ship or ship, in order to understand what its operation is. So he moves in his imagination the armadas, like a little boy, with toy soldiers.
  7. +13
    19 September 2019 06: 59
    In general, everyone collapsed, could not organize the protection of the ships in the Mediterranean, Comrade Stalin had to repress ... Kuznetsov came ... “Nevertheless, even in its extremely disorganized state, the fleet was able to make a huge contribution to the victory over Germany, a contribution that today , unfortunately, disappeared from the mass consciousness, and many military people are not correctly recognized. ” ... Where does the "extremely disorganized state of the fleet" come from ??? We leave it to the conscience of the author. What disappeared from the mass consciousness and from the military? Is this author about himself? It reminds me very much of Rezun, who “discovered” the number of prisoners in the Kiev boiler in the “Icebreaker” and blamed that he could not study it at a military school ... and what was difficult to study there? In all military schools there were green volumes of the History of the Great Patriotic War where the black and white figures of losses were given and everything was described very accurately and in detail. Volume 2, page 110 "captured 665 thousand prisoners." In general, many modern “researchers” like to rediscover the long-known - Brilev opens the Pacific submarine’s campaign in the Northern Fleet, the Mikoyan icebreaker’s campaign in the Far East, Rezun - the presence of a naval base in Pinsk ... In fact, everyone who wants to know everything. And who does not know can read for example the latest encyclopedia published by the Moscow Region. Highly recommend!
    “Nice photo of a good ship from the fleet number 2 in the world. Control cruiser "Zhdanov", from the 5th opsk, 1983 " - A good ship for 1953 and quite outdated in terms of tasks and capabilities for the year 83. An artillery cruiser in the nuclear missile age ... Good! Handsome! But really useless. "Commander-in-Chief Gorshkov perfectly understood the significance and importance of establishing dominance at sea, at least local." - Well, where and when was this good desire realized? And if it was not, then there is nothing to declare it as truth. We value Gorshkov not for his words, but for his deeds. Further, it turns out “the evil genius of the Soviet state and one of its involuntary gravediggers - Dmitry Fedorovich Ustinov.” !!! This is already very fresh, but very smelly news. Ustinov - Stalin's People's Commissar of Armaments, one of the creators of Victory, who did a lot for the formation of both the Navy and the Strategic Nuclear Forces. How can a person who has not done anything for the Navy and the country after so long spit on those who created it? It's indecent!
    The collapse of the USSR and “the role of the fleet in the general defense system of the country was also seriously questioned at all levels - from the Ministry of Defense to the minds of individual citizens.” Another country - a different role for the fleet, different times, a different social system, a different geopolitical component! Naturally, one must not stupidly follow the principles and theories of the past and the century before last, but comprehend the present and draw the right conclusions!
    "An officer serving in the Navy units, to a question like" What is the purpose of the fleet? " "he will be able to blur something like the need to maintain that very favorable operational regime, which becomes favorable after the establishment of supremacy at sea, the need for which is fully spelled out in the naval guidance documents and instructions." A smart hypothetical officer knows, they teach him that way, but the silly leadership of Russia and the Moscow Region knows nothing and does not understand! This is the everlasting and main mournful melody of all Timokhin's articles. It's a shame for him that his great and wise are not allowed to rule the country, not otherwise. “But in state doctrinal documents, everything is not so! This is similar to the psyche of a schizophrenic who sincerely believes in conflicting things, but alas, we have come to this very point. While the units and fleets are preparing for one thing, the highest state power in its doctrinal attitudes professes something completely different. ” Why does such a man’s arrogance to the fleet have no relation whatsoever that he didn’t and didn’t have, had no BM education, did nothing for the country and the Navy? Why is he allowed to insult people in all articles? Just because the MO site clearly spells out real and possible goals and objectives of the fleet, and not nonsense a hundred years ago? But these are already questions to the competence of Timokhin himself! Ah, the Russian Navy “Strictly formally, starting from the wording of the Ministry of Defense, our Navy is NOT INTENDED FOR WAGING AN ATTACK WAR IN GENERAL.” Exactly! Not for aggression and suicide, but for the DEFENSE of Russia and the PREVENTION of war!
    And as a result, Mr. Timokhin’s “recipe”: “We, patriotic citizens, do not have the material strength to make the state authorities change their minds. But she does not respond to verbal criticism. But, in full accordance with the definition of Marx, we can create our own theory of how everything should be and make it the property of the masses. And then it can no longer be ignored, if only because the majority will be indoctrinated. And, frankly, the moment for this has come. Because when, if not now, and who, if not us? ” And this already looks like calls in the style of Navalny, Sable, Sobchak and Co. It seems that there could not have been without Soros and his school. This is reminiscent of a call to overthrow the government and is punishable as a criminal offense.
    To repeat everything highlighted by the author of this to say the least ... the text is simply indecent, this is complete nonsense. Enough of the final howl “THE TASK TO CONQUER LIVING AT SEA IS THE MAIN FOR THE Navy. WHEN IT IS FULL IMPOSSIBILITY TO CONQUER LIVING AT SEA, IT IS REQUIRED TO NOT ALLOW THE SETTING OF THE LIVING AT SEA TO AN OPPONENT. ” Read it! The task is obviously impossible, but Timokhin puts it at the forefront. Preventing domination ... just amazingly stupid, how to prevent it if it is already in fact and will not go anywhere?
    My opinion is that - Timokhin, in his own words, written in the comments, bumbles in the kitchen napalm (this is a criminal offense, by the way), runs from bears, hits the muzzle with dissent, sending him to hospital beds (also an article of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation), jumps with a parachute in a hurricane (well, that’s not a big deal), writes good articles about ICE, about the times of the Vietnam War, unprofessional about airplanes, retrospective on VM history ... he is not an expert in a specific field of knowledge, he is not an officer, since he does not understand the essence of the Oath, he insults and humiliates both the leadership of the country and the Navy, and those who have the imprudence to disagree with him, he calls for discussion officers (I hope the former) who, in the heat of the argument, blurt out what is not worth voicing. I am absolutely sure that Timokhin is not a patriot of Russia, which is so persistently declared. Read his articles carefully, analyze and do not succumb to provocations.
    1. +4
      19 September 2019 11: 04
      Quote: LeonidL
      Navy of the Russian Federation “Strictly formally, starting from the wording of the Ministry of Defense, our Navy is NOT INTENDED FOR WAGING AN ATTACK WAR IN GENERAL.” Exactly! Not for aggression and suicide, but for the DEFENSE of Russia and the PREVENTION of war!

      I subscribe to every word, I agree with the respected Leonid
      1. -3
        19 September 2019 15: 32
        Quote: vladimir1155
        I subscribe to every word, I agree with the respected Leonid

        1. what Lenya "respected" he himself "signed" (with his "splashes" and "secretions" above)
        2. Without active actions to DESTROY the enemy, we "come and BELIEVE" The most striking example of this - our SSBNs in the "bastions" - Freeman (USA) described very well that the arrival of 667B projects was extremely positively received in the US Navy - for forced the Navy of the USSR to abandon the active strategy
      2. 0
        19 September 2019 23: 04
        Quote: vladimir1155
        Quote: LeonidL
        Navy of the Russian Federation “Strictly formally, starting from the wording of the Ministry of Defense, our Navy is NOT INTENDED FOR WAGING AN ATTACK WAR IN GENERAL.” Exactly! Not for aggression and suicide, but for the DEFENSE of Russia and the PREVENTION of war!

        I subscribe to every word, I agree with the respected Leonid

        The physicist, of course, wrote it off ...

        But why, when I read the memoirs of combat submariners, in those places where they write about the clashes between our and other submarines, they always write about the blows from behind ...
        Does this make you understand or not?
        If you have brains - this makes it clear only one thing - our boats are always at gunpoint.
        Chances to go to the starting corridor - they have exactly zero!
        As soon as they reach the starting horizon, and begin to follow it (going for topographic location) - they will shoot from immediately and without hesitation ...
        Just because. that they always have the enemy on their tail ..
        Just think, how much did the submarine commanders give star heroes for each day nut maintenance ..
        And their commanders received on the head. for each disclosure accompaniment of our SSBNs .... Do you see the difference?
        1. +5
          20 September 2019 02: 50
          It was a period of the 70-80s.
          By the 2000s, the collisions were reduced to zero, they are watching "from the side", let's say, because I am not ready to give exact angles and ranges. They got what they wanted in due time. Now other layouts.
        2. 0
          20 September 2019 09: 23
          As soon as they reach the starting horizon, and begin to follow it (going for topographic location) - they will shoot from immediately and without hesitation ...


          Yes, I have heard this more than once from submariners.
    2. +5
      19 September 2019 12: 02
      Quote: LeonidL
      So Mr. Timokhin

      It is chaotic a little, but basically yes!
      1. -5
        19 September 2019 16: 04
        Quote: Serg65
        but basically yes!

        but who would doubt that Snezh’s sneak, according to Intellect lol "one field of a berry" from Lenya will be laughing
        1. +2
          19 September 2019 16: 06
          what Maxim, have you been lowered down the ramp while still in school? And why would I be a sneak, baby?
          1. -7
            19 September 2019 16: 13
            Quote: Serg65
            And why would I be a sneak, baby?

            oooh mademoiselle serg blew up! laughing
            just don’t pretend to be "intact" here, you understand everything
            1. 0
              20 September 2019 08: 12
              Quote: Fizik M
              Mademoiselle Serg

              what change orientation, tired of being a man ????
          2. +2
            19 September 2019 16: 49
            When there is nothing clever to say, when logic is lame, it remains only to spit and swear. Do not be offended by Fizika, no need. Just ignore it.
            1. -6
              19 September 2019 17: 15
              Quote: LeonidL
              When there is nothing clever to say, when logic is lame, it remains only to spit and swear.

              Lenya, it's just in the "top ten" - ABOUT YOU, - your diarrhea in the comments
    3. +5
      19 September 2019 14: 52
      Quote: LeonidL
      “Nice photo of a good ship from the fleet number 2 in the world. Control cruiser "Zhdanov", from the 5th opsk, 1983 " - A good ship for 1953 and quite outdated in terms of tasks and capabilities for the year 83. An artillery cruiser in the nuclear missile age ... Good! Handsome! But really useless.

      Do you propose leaving OPESK without management? This is a pure 68 bis, and the control cruiser is based on it. Yes, and the basic 68 bis was valuable to support DESO - in the absence of UDC and other carriers of attack aircraft / helicopters.
      Further, it turns out “the evil genius of the Soviet state and one of its involuntary grave diggers - Dmitry Fedorovich Ustinov.” !!! This is already very fresh, but very foul-smelling news. Ustinov is the Stalin’s People’s Commissar of Armaments, one of the creators of the Victory, who did a lot for the formation of the Navy and the Strategic Nuclear Forces.

      Oh yes ... four under-cruisers-non-aircraft carriers of the project 1143 are the merit of Dmitry Fedorovich personally. Aircraft-carrying cruisers with weapons equal to three times less in displacement of the "Glory", an air group like that of half the size of "Invincible" and a displacement of the same as a normal AB, but with an air group from KVVP.
      And the catapults shot from 1143.5 are also his merit.
      1. 0
        19 September 2019 16: 57
        I fully agree with you about the need for control ships. But ... "on the basis" of a purely artillery cruiser you cannot make a good command ship, this is all a craft project. For some reason, you do not like an under-cruiser-non-aircraft carrier, but an under-cruiser-under-control ship you like. You would be like such half-half ships on a long voyage, among the crowd and your own crew and all the staff flags, specialists, ... Nothing good. It is a control ship that must be a control ship. I agree with aircraft carriers, but ... it was possible to create control ships, but with aircraft carriers ... I think the appearance of aircraft-carrying cruisers in their configurations, weapons and dimensions is the result of the real capabilities of both shipbuilders and aircraft designers according to the principle that at least something is better than nothing.
        1. -5
          19 September 2019 17: 16
          Quote: LeonidL
          I think the appearance of aircraft-carrying cruisers in their configurations, armaments and dimensions is the result of the real capabilities of both shipbuilders and aircraft designers on the principle that at least something is better than nothing.

          fool
          thinking is not about YOU laughing
        2. +4
          19 September 2019 18: 29
          Quote: LeonidL
          I fully agree with you about the need for control ships. But ... "on the basis" of a purely artillery cruiser you cannot make a good command ship, this is all a craft project. For some reason, you do not like an under-cruiser-non-aircraft carrier, but an under-cruiser-under-control ship you like. You would be like such half-half ships on a long voyage, among the crowd and your own crew and all the staff flags, specialists, ... Nothing good. It is a control ship that must be a control ship.

          Well, we had no experience of large amphibious operations, as a result of which the Americans began to build specialized ships for controlling amphibious operations - of which they later began to make ships for controlling fleets. For us, KRU pr. 68U was the first ship of its kind, adapted for permanent headquarters deployment and maintenance of its activities (and not like on a "parquet cruiser" - when, for the sake of headquarters placement and their work, the KR crew officers were "compacted").

          According to the mind, even in the minimal version it was necessary to remove both aft towers (as on the Senyavin), and most importantly - to change the entire SZA and MZA of the Second World War to AK-726 and AK-230. This would significantly reduce the number of l / s BCH-2 (calculation of one V-11 - 7-8 people) and at the same time strengthen the ship's air defense.
          Alas, the naval forces would not have allowed to remove the two bow towers - they even held onto the fourth tower with their teeth (on the Senyavin, to prevent its dismantling, even a cordon was set up, but it didn’t help). Although, when both aft towers were removed, a helicopter hangar climbed onto the switchgear.
          1. +2
            20 September 2019 08: 46
            hi Welcome Alex!
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Well, we did not have experience of large landing operations, as a result of which the Americans began to build specialized amphibious operations control ships - from which later fleets control ships began to be made.

            But by the beginning of the 80s, we had experience in managing operational squadrons and, based on this experience of KRU, Zhdanov at that time already could not meet the increased requirements for managing large fleet groups! I will not even give examples of the living conditions of the crew and staff ..
            An example from my experience ...
            The flagmech decided to arrange a demonstration flogging for one destroyer old-fashioned, so that to arrive on Zhdanov you need to use either a boat or a longboat. There are 38 pennants in the raid. What happened near the cruising shots you probably do not need to describe .....
            In the late 70s, it became clear that Project 1123 did not justify itself as an anti-submarine, but in my opinion, the cruisers of this project would make an excellent command ship, but, as I understand, at that time the secretaries and admiral-generals were busy with more "important "deeds! Somehow inspired recourse oddly enough, but living conditions on Soviet ships have always been, to put it mildly, not very. They made a combat vehicle, what else do you need? And the crew will somehow change over, not small!
            1. +2
              20 September 2019 14: 10
              Quote: Serg65
              But by the beginning of the 80s, we had experience in managing operational squadrons and, based on this experience of KRU, Zhdanov at that time already could not meet the increased requirements for managing large fleet groups!

              I do not argue. But in order to have such an experience in the 80s, it was necessary to rebuild Zhdanov into KRU in the early 70s. smile
              1. +1
                20 September 2019 14: 49
                Quote: Alexey RA
                in order to have such experience in the 80s it was necessary to rebuild Zhdanov into KRU in the early 70s

                smile Well, I kind of meant it ...
                Quote: Serg65
                by the beginning of the 80s, we had experience managing operational squadrons

                I’m not talking about the fact that it was not necessary to make switchgear from KRL, switchgear completely justified itself before the beginning of the 80s ...
        3. +6
          19 September 2019 18: 37
          Quote: LeonidL
          I think the appearance of aircraft-carrying cruisers in their configurations, armaments and dimensions is the result of real capabilities of both shipbuilders and aircraft designers on the principle that at least something is better than nothing.

          No. This is just the result of the willful decision of one person.
          Shipbuilders led by Butoma were ready to build a full-fledged AB. Aircraft designers were preparing deck vehicles - starting from the time of the MiG-19. In Leningrad, a catapult was made. Designers issued pr. 1160 and 1153. And these ABs promoted jointly Navy and the Ministry of Industry and Trade.
          But a strong-willed decision all work on instrument of imperialist aggression were discontinued - and had to build 1143 with KVVP.
          Ustinov and at 1143.5 wanted an air group from KVVP (and hacked to death the catapult that was placed on this AB according to the first project). But Kuznetsov was saved by the springboard (originally made to ensure the takeoff of the KVVP) and the appearance of the Su-27 and MiG-29, which could take off from this springboard.
          1. -2
            19 September 2019 22: 24
            It's not that simple, I think. There were many reasons and arguments of both a military-political and technological nature. The readiness of shipbuilders is good, but there are words and there are deeds. Ustinov knew very well the ins and outs of military construction; most likely, he doubted the final result. Therefore, they decided to have a sparrow in his hand, and not a crane in the sky. this is my opinion.
            1. +1
              20 September 2019 14: 16
              Quote: LeonidL
              The readiness of shipbuilders is good, but there are words and there are deeds. Ustinov knew very well the ins and outs of military construction; most likely, he doubted the final result.

              At the time of the decision on AV Ave. 1153, Nikolaev had already built two TAVKR with a total displacement of 45 ct.
              Quote: LeonidL
              Therefore, they decided to have a sparrow in his hand, and not a crane in the sky. this is my opinion.

              Not a sparrow, but a life-size flying (with difficulty and not far) sparrow model.
              Quote: LeonidL
              Ustinov knew very well the ins and outs of military construction; most likely, he doubted the final result.

              But in "Yak - Shmyak on the deck"he had no doubts.
            2. 0
              24 September 2019 04: 26
              You see, if the matter was limited to one ship of the project, and not its continuation and its new modification, your theses would have a full reason. And so, it seems that there was an intensified undercover struggle between several groups. By the way, an example of the alteration of the latter in the Baku series in Vikramadity is indicative.
          2. 0
            20 September 2019 09: 25
            Aircraft designers were preparing deck cars - starting from the time of the MiG-19.


            More under AV ave. 85. There for the first time the deck MiG-19 were to appear
            1. +1
              20 September 2019 14: 17
              Yeah ... I meant it, talking about the deck MiG-19. The first Soviet AB project under jet decks.
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  8. +11
    19 September 2019 07: 00
    I was also moved by the signature to the beautiful picture of the cruiser "Zhdanov" informing the reader that this is a good cruiser and a good command ship. This cruiser is an artillery and any officer who served on the ship knows about the sodomy that is going on, God forbid, the authorities will make the ship happy with the title of "headquarters" or "command ship". The cruiser is not designed to accommodate the crowd of staff people, who usually occupy the best cabins, but this is not the main thing. An artillery ship is not designed for a command ship - this is not its combat function, there is nowhere to place redundant command and communications equipment, other posts, specialists, antiennes, etc. are needed. To call an artillery cruiser, a ship is undoubtedly beautiful and deserved an excellent command ship, means do not know anything about him and do not understand what the management of the fleet is really like.
    After a careful study of part of the second work of Mr. Timokhin, the comment will continue.
    1. -1
      19 September 2019 08: 17
      According to Timokhin, your position is clear. Now voice your suggestions.
      1. -3
        19 September 2019 08: 58
        LeonidLa’s position has been voiced many times - no one should express any opinion about anything. Everything is very simple and fits in two lines.
        laughing
      2. +1
        19 September 2019 11: 15
        I will voice for Leonid, the essence of the wise naval doctrine of the Russian Federation 1 submarine and especially nuclear submarines and the means to ensure their exit and return. 2 several surface ships to solve peacetime tasks.
        1. +1
          19 September 2019 14: 11
          1) Submarines and especially nuclear submarines and means of ensuring their exit and return.
          2) several surface ships to solve peacetime tasks.

          3) Bomber aircraft, as the most efficient way to deliver ammunition at the right time and place
      3. -4
        19 September 2019 17: 20
        If you read my comments to the previous articles, you will understand the position. It is simple - an asymmetric, high-tech response to challenges whose goal is not "sea battles", but the prevention of global conflict. Not the squandering of funds and forces on the Big Fleet, but balanced in terms of geopolitical tasks and economic opportunities, ship groupings specialized in fleets. The main task, in my opinion, is to create a sufficient grouping to support the Northern Sea Route. So I think that what is being done is quite reasonable and quite sufficient.
        1. -1
          19 September 2019 17: 30
          Quote: LeonidL
          If you read my comments on previous articles, you will understand the position.

          it is "known" - and can be characterized by two words - "splash" and "discharge"
          Quote: LeonidL
          an asymmetric, high-tech response to challenges whose goal is not "sea battles", but the prevention of global conflict.

          fool
          just STRATEGIC deterrence is based on completely "classical means" such as nuclear weapons and ICBMs
          but for the "non-strategic" asymmetry and need to look ...
          Quote: LeonidL
          The main task, in my opinion, is to create a sufficient group to ensure the Northern Sea Route

          belay
          in short - ICE-BREAKERS
          laughing
        2. -1
          19 September 2019 23: 12
          Quote: LeonidL
          If you read my comments to the previous articles, you will understand the position. It is simple - an asymmetric, high-tech response to challenges whose goal is not "sea battles", but the prevention of global conflict. Not the squandering of funds and forces on the Big Fleet, but balanced in terms of geopolitical tasks and economic opportunities, ship groupings specialized in fleets. The main task, in my opinion, is to create a sufficient grouping to support the Northern Sea Route. So I think that what is being done is quite reasonable and quite sufficient.

          Asymmetry does not exist ...
          It is enough to understand any mind. except for those. who writes on manuals.
          One rocket can destroy an aircraft carrier. but, in order for one missile to break through to it, it is necessary to build several hundred missile carriers, train a thousand pilots, equip several airfields, with thousands of BAO military specialists, with a bunch of airfield equipment.
          it's hundreds of billions of dollars in total ...
    2. +3
      19 September 2019 08: 32
      Quote: LeonidL
      After a careful study of part of the second work of Mr. Timokhin, the comment will continue.
      with good criticism, it’s strange that you do not have a single publication on VO, can you compete with Timokhin? You are apparently more knowledgeable.
      1. -1
        19 September 2019 09: 09
        There is not good criticism, but incompetent nonsense of a man, for some strange and apparently abnormal reasons, posing as not just an officer of the USSR Navy in a deep-deep resignation (he still has the Main Naval Staff, although he’s the General Staff of the Navy probably with 50's), but also a hereditary nobleman. Soviet must be assumed.

        I usually ignore his opuses, but you can take it and get down to grabbing any random piece from any comment.

        For example:

        This cruiser is an artillery and any officer who served on the ship knows about the sodomy that is going on, God forbid, the authorities will make the ship happy with the title of "headquarters" or "command ship".


        The cruiser of this KRU "Zhdanov", rebuilt according to pr.68U, where the letter U means "Management"

        In the process of converting the cruiser into a control ship, the following equipment and systems were upgraded:

        The [2] third tower of the GK [3] was removed, in its place a superstructure was installed, which housed the SKPV [4], the crew’s cockpit, a printing house, and the Osa air defense system was mounted on the roof.
        A mizzen mast was delivered, 25 meters aft from the main mast, an antenna device for the Vyaz radio transmitter and antennas for the Tsunami-BM system were installed on it.
        The Tsunami-BM system of the Cyclone navigation and communications system was installed
        Mounted 30-mm gun mount AK-230 with remote control radar MP-104
        Helipad equipped in Utah

        Post modernization

        To solve the main tasks (control and communication tasks) of the control ship, the Zhdanov cruiser, when it was converted, provided for a set of posts of the flagship command post of the fleet commander (commander of the operational squadron). The composition of the complex included: a group headquarters operational post, designed to provide control of the fleet (squadron), as well as interacting forces in the preparation and conduct of the operation; reconnaissance and communications headquarters, as well as the deployment of an operational planning group to prepare materials and carry out operational-tactical calculations when planning operations and an operational-rear group to develop measures for rear and special support for fleet forces (squadron).

        The group headquarters operational post (post number 51 for factory numbering) included fleet control posts (squadrons), submarines, anti-submarine forces, missile-artillery and landing ships, ships and support vessels, anti-electronic means of combat, coastal missile units, situation posts (main combat information post), aviation, air defense, mine defense and navigational support, protection against weapons of mass destruction, and others. For the deployment of a group operational post with reconnaissance and communications headquarters (with a total area of ​​more than 350 sq. M.), Former command rooms were used in the bow of the upper deck, under the forecastle (between the spire compartment and the officers' mess). The elimination of these cubicles had to be compensated, in retreat from the long-standing tradition of placing sailors and foremen in our fleet, by creating new command rooms on the forecastle and 1st platform (cubes No. 1 and 2) by increasing the volume and height of superstructures, with the transfer of boats from I to the II site. The working premises of the fleet commander (squadron commander) and the chief of staff with a control room were equipped on site II (under the wheelhouse), increasing the bow of the superstructure in front of the situation post. The premises of the operational planning group were placed on the first site, next to one of the new cubicles. The posts of the flagship command post complex were equipped with external and intra-ship communication facilities, remote navigation aids, tablet tables and vertical tablets. The situation post also had special air and surface tablets, as well as a remote all-round indicator.

        Communication modernization

        In terms of armament by means of communication, the Zhdanov switchgear was a new type of ship, the first in the Russian Navy. The equipment installed on it made it possible to form more than 60 radio channels simultaneously operating in the entire frequency range, providing all possible types of work: auditory telephony and telegraphy, letter printing, photo telegraphy, ultra-fast communication, automatic reception of high-speed transmissions and satellite-based space communications. The equipment of the long-distance communications post provided multi-channel communication via wired and radio-relay lines when parked in the fleet base.
        The reliable range of the ship’s communication with the coast reached 8 thousand km, and when using a repeater - 12 thousand km, communication with any area of ​​the World Ocean was possible on space communication lines, but only via satellites in elliptical orbits (short communication session). A full-fledged (through geostationary satellites) space communications system was installed 9 years after the first modernization. The possibility of further development and improvement of communication lines was envisaged, for which premises, masses, power supply capacities, etc., were reserved on the ship. During the tests, the cruiser had stable and reliable radio communications with many communication centers (the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the country, the General Staff of the Navy and the headquarters of the fleets, aviation, naval forces and formations of the Black Sea Fleet, ships of the 5 operational squadron and other fleets.


        There was also "Senyavin", which did not have both aft towers, but there was a hangar for a helicopter. This is where the nobleman knows the subject. So in every line.

        The easiest way to skip what he writes without reading and that's it. Like me.
        1. +5
          19 September 2019 12: 05
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          The cruiser of this KRU "Zhdanov", rebuilt according to pr.68U, where the letter U means "Management"

          Sasha, how much did these control ships meet the requirements in the management of naval groups in the mid-80s?
          1. +2
            19 September 2019 12: 27
            As far as communication equipment allowed. But nothing prevented him from updating. And, at least, such a ship is firstly better than none, and secondly survivable of any headquarters ship, and can go with KUG at the same speed.
            1. +4
              19 September 2019 12: 42
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              How much communication equipment allowed

              Already 68 projects did not meet the requirements, even in the mid-80s, the only thing is that it was an admiral's salon ... it was chic!
              1. +2
                19 September 2019 13: 00
                So this is a standard ship, not a converted one.
              2. +1
                19 September 2019 16: 02
                Quote: Serg65
                same 68 project requirements even in the middle of 80's

                YOU can give a "modern" and effective "analogue" to him in the OKOP 80s?
                1. 0
                  19 September 2019 16: 08
                  Quote: Fizik M
                  YOU can give a "modern" and effective "analogue" to him in the OKOP 80s?

                  pr. 1123!
                  Why are you on YOU? I’m already lost!
                  1. -1
                    19 September 2019 16: 23
                    Quote: Serg65
                    pr. 1123!

                    fool
                    Are you at all? fool
                    what is it "analog"? AK-725?!?!?
                    1. +1
                      20 September 2019 08: 09
                      Quote: Fizik M
                      Are you at all?

                      Miner, before you twist a hole in your temple, you should at least take an interest in this cruiser!
                      Quote: Fizik M
                      AK-725?!?!?

                      laughing Now I understand why you were not accepted to the academy, although you had 10 chances out of 100!
              3. -4
                19 September 2019 17: 13
                Yes, the admiral's salon ... it's a dream. "better than none" ... Why then write that good? "Go with the KUG at the same speed" ... what prevents you from creating a high-speed ship specifically specialized for a command ship? After all, no one argues that control ships are needed!
              4. +1
                19 September 2019 21: 12
                "Kutuzov" in Novorossiysk - is it from that series?
                1. +3
                  20 September 2019 08: 11
                  Quote: Okolotochny
                  "Kutuzov" in Novorossiysk - is it from that series?

                  Yes Leh, this is their brother!
      2. +3
        19 September 2019 12: 03
        Quote: Dead Day
        You do not have a single publication on VO,

        And you?
        And now publication decides who is smarter ??
        1. +2
          19 September 2019 12: 20
          Quote: Serg65
          Quote: Dead Day
          You do not have a single publication on VO,

          And you?
          And now publication decides who is smarter ??

          I would read, and decided for myself ....
          1. +1
            19 September 2019 12: 43
            Quote: Dead Day
            I would read, and decided for myself ...

            And often articles on VO have informative value ... for you?
        2. -1
          19 September 2019 12: 27
          Well, with the nobleman Leonidl, everything is obvious and without publication laughing
        3. -6
          19 September 2019 16: 01
          Quote: Serg65
          who is smarter ??

          smart - it's definitely not about YOU laughing
      3. -1
        19 September 2019 17: 09
        I had enough publications in my time in serious military publications, separate books were published. Alas, the desire to publish has subsided with age, and there are other reasons. I think that it is up to the young and talented Fleet officers to decide his fate. The attempt to bring a wave of public pseudo-patriotic rebellion of amateurs into the construction of the Navy again disgusts me. An example of treasure is science. By the way, pay attention to the list of references by Timokhin - Wikipedia comes first. I am sure that on the basis of Wikipedia to create a new naval theory somehow ... So - I comment between the bans.
        1. -3
          19 September 2019 17: 20
          Quote: LeonidL
          I had enough publications in my time in serious military publications, separate books were published.

          taking into account how YOU LIEED here earlier, the "price" by YOUR statements is ZERO
          и YOU are simply not able to bring and publish anything sane and worthy "from yourself"

          Quote: LeonidL
          By the way, pay attention to the list of literature by Timokhin - Wikipedia comes first

          fool
          1. 0
            19 September 2019 17: 56
            In general, he might not have answered, but look at the bottom of the first article.
            1. -1
              19 September 2019 18: 17
              Quote: LeonidL
              In general, he might not have answered, but look at the bottom of the first article.

              So what?!?!
              in my list of literature the same Pedivy was indicated
            2. 0
              20 September 2019 09: 30
              Any person who is able to take off the linked text will see that these are sources of photos, not literature.
      4. The comment was deleted.
      5. -1
        20 September 2019 01: 58
        Grandfather - that enough perseverance laid out below. Read.
    3. -5
      19 September 2019 09: 34
      Quote: LeonidL
      After a careful study of part of the second work of Mr. Timokhin, the comment will continue.

      Or maybe it’s better not to? Have pity on us.
      There are a lot of words in the commentary. There is little sense. Rather, zero. To be honest, I didn’t finish to the end, I couldn’t.
      1. +6
        19 September 2019 12: 07
        Quote: man in the street
        Or maybe it’s better not to? Have pity on us.

        Why are you sorry? You live superficially, afraid to dive into the depths, so at least you will gain your mind from such comments!
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. +5
            19 September 2019 12: 39
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            only to the same state as they jump and begin to impersonate a Soviet nobleman.

            smile Well, you impersonate a naval expert!
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            no one should express any opinion about anything.

            what Sounds strange from your mouth .. isn't it?
            1. -2
              19 September 2019 13: 31
              So you then argue your "wrong" in relation to the author of the article, and do not flood. People will pass and pass. Leonid appeared. Dashed off it is not clear that he disappeared. The author is here on the discussion thread. I believe that if you have something to say to someone, let them. Otherwise, not a discussion, but a parade of emotions (-)
              1. +2
                19 September 2019 13: 42
                Quote: dirk182
                So you then argue your "wrong" in relation to the author

                So you read the arguments we have regarding the author, who is stopping you!
                1. 0
                  19 September 2019 14: 12
                  you already read the arguments, very informative
            2. The comment was deleted.
              1. +1
                19 September 2019 15: 42
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                This is not what I think, this is Leonidl.

                What are your words?
                1. The comment was deleted.
            3. The comment was deleted.
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. The comment was deleted.
                2. 0
                  19 September 2019 17: 30
                  Sergei! you see that this audience, from impotence, simply stupidly turns to individuals, to insults. And, surprisingly, I am banned for the slightest comma, these two unbelievable gentlemen just come out in hysteria with insults and they get away with it. However, I have not been offended by such tips for a long time. I just don’t notice.
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                  2. -3
                    19 September 2019 23: 19
                    Quote: LeonidL
                    Sergei! you see that this audience, from impotence, simply stupidly turns to individuals, to insults. And, surprisingly, I am banned for the slightest comma, these two unbelievable gentlemen just come out in hysteria with insults and they get away with it. However, I have not been offended by such tips for a long time. I just don’t notice.

                    What impotence?
                    I consider you simply an unscrupulous and corrupt person ...
                    and say it out loud.
                    For I consider you a collective character. who for money publishes his enemy here. treacherous and deceitful texts.
                    I personally consider your nickname - the fruit of the work of the enemy agent. which in principle destroys all the principles of patriotism. All questions of real criticism - you are trying not only to extinguish, but also to blame the critic.
                    You are essentially an enemy of statehood - either worthy of execution. or come to me in Labytnangi - I will teach you to love the Motherland ...
                    Easy and laid back ...
                    after a couple of dips in the swamp - we'll see. can you continue to write for thirty pieces of silver
                    1. +1
                      20 September 2019 09: 01
                      Quote: SovAr238A
                      For I consider you a collective character. who for money publishes his enemy here. treacherous and deceitful texts.

                      Comrade Komsomolets ..... But what is Leonid’s deceit and betrayal? ..... well, in your opinion?
                      Quote: SovAr238A
                      You are essentially an enemy of statehood - either worthy of execution. or come to me in Labytnangi - I will teach you to love the Motherland ...

                      laughing Oh, you hero straight! You can’t share the address, defender of the fatherland?
                  3. 0
                    20 September 2019 08: 58
                    Quote: LeonidL
                    Sergei! you see

                    laughing Leonid, but what did you expect from the undereducated mineral, in principle ???
                    Quote: LeonidL
                    I get banned for the slightest comma

                    what may not fit ......
                    Quote: LeonidL
                    I haven’t been offended by such types for a long time

                    Nah, there were a lot of troubles in the fleet in the 90s, I have a counter for them !!!!
        2. The comment was deleted.
    4. +1
      19 September 2019 10: 04
      They did on what it was. Including boats 629 Ave. which are also not intended.
      There was such a SPECIALIZED RZK. It was called "Ural". The fate of the SPECIALIZED ship is sad. (((.
      1. 0
        19 September 2019 11: 08
        the control ship is nonsense, they have been managing it from bunkers for a long time and receive information from satellites, the 19th century is long over
        1. 0
          19 September 2019 12: 25
          Quote: vladimir1155
          The 19th century is long over

          Indeed, with modern means of communication, the presence of a special ship is idiocy .. It used to be looked into the pipes from the bridge and handed out commands with flags, but in a linear battle the flagship drove everything with a squadron .. But now what the hell? What difference does it make you sit in a bunker somewhere, or hang out on a ship in the immediate vicinity of the conflict? By the way, in the second case, the loss of qualified specialists is more likely. One damn thing will all depend on the connection, whether it will be or not .. But distances I repeat today do not matter. We have a single command and control center and I’m sure that there is also a naval department that is engaged in everything necessary, everything is as if vice versa necessary persons for quick decision-making at any level, and a bike about the fact that they can all be destroyed with one blow, to put it mildly delirium, if this center is destroyed, then there are 30-40 minutes left to live on the planet, the corresponding directives have been worked out a long time ago and communicated to the executors.
          1. +2
            19 September 2019 13: 32
            "Blue Ridge" when removed, then we will discuss :-)
            In general, the more independent control channels, the better.
          2. -3
            19 September 2019 17: 34
            It all depends on the task being performed, for example, in the case of solving a tactical task of landing an assault force, in my opinion, the command ship justifies itself. The same Mistrals today. We talked about control ships from the times of the USSR - different tasks, completely different geopolitical situation, well, you are right, technologies.
        2. +3
          19 September 2019 12: 37
          As a former officer, do not you say anything abbreviations like KPUNIA, KPUNSHA?

          Is this for example, in the tactical link?
          1. +3
            19 September 2019 13: 30
            Operational and tactical :-)
            Corrected simply, without humor.
            1. 0
              19 September 2019 14: 33
              Thank you, I will consider.
          2. -2
            19 September 2019 17: 56
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            To you as a former officer

            where did you get that Lenya is a "former officer"?
            IMHO his "level" is the bazaar "aunt Frosya" laughing
            1. 0
              19 September 2019 18: 56
              This was to Vladimir 1155. But Lenya is, of course, completely different. His books appeared at the Military Publishing House apparently, they were only classified in such a way that they won’t give them even with permission. Secret s! laughing
              1. 0
                21 September 2019 00: 31
                And why do you, my dear, read smart books that you won’t be given any more? Your level is Wikipedia, there are beautiful pictures, simple texts. I think that you would study real textbooks on the courses of VMU, you would write more intelligently. And, still, the naval officer, first of all, a decent man. With a manual maximum from impotence, you very quickly go into a state of hysteria, on a person. With such a state of health, you with a maximum to study at the VMU would not even be allowed close, or kicked out after the first medical examination. You would be fond of only history - only respect and gratitude. But you, due to some incomprehensible goals (I think they are clear to me) or ambitions that have not been satisfied since youthful years, are trying to once again spin a wave of public discussion of the most important issues in construction, and claim to be the creator of a new theory. This has already happened and did not lead to anything good. In today's troubled world, Russia and its Armed Forces, including the Navy, are the decisive factors for ensuring stability and world order, roughly speaking - preventing war. You, with your articles and appeals, unconfirmed insults to the leadership of the Navy, you can, if not destroy, then weaken these stability factors. If you really want to play sea battles - buy a com game and enjoy. And yet, you with a maxim, you only make me laugh, well, just the kids are small, right. After all, I have already received my awards, titles and other things a long time ago. Well, God be with you, my dear. understand - good. Do not understand ... most importantly, others realized that the bulk of the ratings and comments follows.
        3. 0
          19 September 2019 13: 32
          Perhaps that is why the United States attended to the UAV communications. As they stated, for cases of interruptions in satellite communications.
        4. +6
          19 September 2019 15: 49
          Quote: vladimir1155
          the control ship is nonsense, they have been managing it from bunkers for a long time and receive information from satellites, the 19th century is long over

          Tell it to the Sixth Fleet. smile
    5. -3
      19 September 2019 10: 37
      You rave dear, well, and burn a bit).
    6. 0
      19 September 2019 15: 39
      Quote: LeonidL
      any officer who served on the ship knows about the sodomy that is going on, God forbid, the authorities will make the ship happy with the title of "headquarters" or "command ship".


      and it already depends on the chiefs and officers
      for there are directly opposite examples

      Quote: LeonidL
      An artillery ship is not designed for a control ship - this is not its combat function, there is nowhere to place redundant control and communications equipment, other posts, specialists, antiyens, etc. are needed.

      The combat unit of the Zhdanov switchgear, in terms of technical equipment and number of personnel, corresponded to a medium-sized communications center. ...
      For 5 years, from 1981 to 1986, KRU "Zhdanov" participated in all exercises of the Black Sea Fleet, both in the Mediterranean Sea and in the Black Sea. All these years, the ship was given responsibility for the willingness to receive and deploy the shipboard control post of the Black Sea Fleet. From the last combat service in its history, the ship arrived in September 1985 (from 12 May 1985 to 29 September 1985) The warhead of the communications received a good rating, providing communications for the headquarters of the Mediterranean squadron during this period. The entire material part was in order, although 27% of it worked out the terms of the overhaul. The average operational efficiency coefficient for all radio directions, taking into account the space communication channel, was 96%. During the military service, channels of communication new for that time were actively used, such as Chaika (Dragonfly), MVU-300, P-069, MPZM-300, Tsunami BM2 and others.

      http://cruiser.patosin.ru/bc4/y/
      Quote: LeonidL
      After a careful study of part of the second work of Mr. Timokhin

      Monsieur, as YOU personally signed (YOURSELF!) above - to study something, and even more "carefully" is "not about YOU";) but there are really a lot of "splashes" (and stupid and deceitful) from YOU
    7. +4
      19 September 2019 15: 47
      Quote: LeonidL
      This cruiser is an artillery and any officer who served on the ship knows about the sodomy that is going on, God forbid, the authorities will make the ship happy with the title of "headquarters" or "command ship". The cruiser is not designed to accommodate the crowd of staff people, who usually occupy the best cabins, but this is not the main thing. An artillery ship is not designed for a command ship - this is not its combat function, there is nowhere to place redundant command and communications equipment, other posts, specialists, antiennes, etc., are needed.

      A magnificent illustration of professionalism and competence. smile
      KRU "Zhdanov" is not an artillery KRL pr.68-bis. This is a specially rebuilt control cruiser, project 68U-1. After 6 years of refitting, the CD lost its third main battery turret, but it received everything that a full-fledged control ship needs:
      To solve the main tasks of the command ship, the cruiser "Zhdanov" during its re-equipment provided for a complex of posts of the flagship command post of the fleet commander (commander of the operational squadron). The composition of the complex included: a group headquarters operational post, designed to ensure control of the forces of the fleet (squadron), as well as interacting forces in preparation for and during the conduct of the operation; headquarters reconnaissance and communications posts, as well as the deployment of an operational planning group for preparing materials and performing operational-tactical calculations when planning operations and an operational-rear group for developing measures for rear and special support of the fleet (squadron) forces.
      To perform the tasks of the control ship, 17 powerful KB and SV radio transmitters were installed on it (including one - the Vyaz station - with a power of 5 kW). 57 KV-, VV-, SV- and DV-receivers, nine radio stations UKB, three radio-relay VHF- and DCV-stations, space and long-distance communications equipment. Their work was provided by 65 antennas, placed taking into account the simultaneous operation of various radio communications.
      On the forecastle, in the middle part of the ship, due to the extension of the superstructure, the posts of government, distant and radio relay shone. A special communication command post was equipped to guide, organize and control communications. Due to the significant increase in energy consumption, the installed capacity of generators had to be increased by 30% with a corresponding expansion of the premises of power plants. The placement of combat posts and personnel, the equipment of residential, medical, cultural and domestic, industrial and sanitary facilities, sanitary-technical systems and devices providing habitability and the conditions for fulfilling the duties of the crew of the ship at military posts, met the requirements of the Navy.

  9. +5
    19 September 2019 08: 07
    This is not customary to talk about, for some strange reasons, but our main opponent has the same exact vulnerability - his Navy is divided between the Pacific Ocean and the Atlantic. And, importantly, the main striking force of the U.S. Navy - aircraft carriers, can not make the transition to the Panama Canal. Only bypassing South America and nothing more.

    a good interesting article, but the author was a bit behind the times - a couple of years ago the canal was modernized and expanded, oddly enough, at the suggestion of the Chinese, and aircraft carriers now pass through it.
    On October 23, 2006 in Panama, the results of a referendum on the expansion of the Panama Canal, which was supported by 79% of the population, were summed up. The adoption of this plan was facilitated by the Chinese business structures managing the channel. By 2016, the canal was modernized and began to pass oil tankers with a displacement of more than 130 thousand tons, which significantly reduced the delivery time of Venezuelan oil to China. Just by this time, Venezuela promised to increase oil supplies to China to 1 million barrels per day.

    During the reconstruction, dredging was carried out and new, wider locks were built. As a result, by 2016, supertankers with a displacement of up to 170 thousand tons were able to pass through the Panama Canal.
    1. +1
      19 September 2019 08: 52
      Quote: Avior
      The adoption of this plan was facilitated by the Chinese business structures managing the channel.

      Panama Canal Administration (Spanish Autoridad del Canal de Panamá (ACP)) is the Panamanian government agency responsible for maintaining and managing the Panama Canal. Channel management was transferred to the ACP on December 31, 1999 under the Torrijos – Carter Treaties.
      1. +1
        19 September 2019 09: 03
        I know that.
        Only here
        in 1997, the Panamanian authorities entered into an agreement with the Hong Kong company Hutchinson Whampoa Ltd to transfer the company rights to manage the two main seaports of the Panama Canal - Balboa, located in the Pacific Ocean near the capital of Panama, and Cristobal, located on Atlantic coast. Ports and their communications were leased to the company for 25 years with the right to extend the contract for the same period.
        1. 0
          19 September 2019 11: 22
          These are all channel access ports, but not the channel itself
          1. 0
            19 September 2019 12: 59
            this is part of channel management, very important, by the way.
            and cheato concerns the accuracy of the wording ....
            it was a convenient quote from wikipedia, links to it began to be cut.
            in fact, just to illustrate that the modernization of the channel was
            hi
    2. -1
      19 September 2019 08: 53
      Strange that missed. Oh come on.

      Photo there is an aircraft carrier in the channel, in the gateway
      1. +3
        19 September 2019 09: 36
        Have not passed yet. And they are unlikely to pass. It is only in theory that it passes. But in practice, Nimitz is too long, and Ford is even longer
        1. +1
          19 September 2019 09: 57
          along the length will pass.
          new requirements- new panamanian size
          The chamber dimensions of the new locks will be 427
          meters long, 55 meters wide and 18.3 meters deep. The corresponding maximum dimensions for
          vessels that will transit these locks are 366 meters LOA, 49 meters in beam and 15.2 meters in
          tropical freshwater (TFW) draft. These dimensions are being used to define the New Panamax
          size vessel

          http://www.pancanal.com/common/maritime/advisories/2009/a-02-2009.pdf
        2. 0
          19 September 2019 10: 01
          I'm interested in deck width.
          1. +4
            19 September 2019 10: 05
            there is no deck, but he has a deck above the banks of the canal.
            1. +1
              19 September 2019 11: 28
              There is a deck on sponsons, you must definitely measure. For an example - UDF class UDC have rotary elevators to climb there.
            2. +3
              19 September 2019 12: 54
              Passed the old gateways and more than once. Each has a control tower that restricts the passage of specifically aircraft carriers.
    3. -1
      21 September 2019 00: 35
      Think about what you yourself wrote: "KRU Zhdanov" is not an artillery cruiser of project 68-bis. It is a specially rebuilt control cruiser, project 68U-1. "Initially, an artillery cruiser, but the six-year restructuring ... well, how does it end perestroika, when the naval department pulls the towers, the techies try to put in everything and a lot ... And then it turns out that the place for the latrine is forgotten .... such missile boats were by the way, if you remember.
  10. +8
    19 September 2019 09: 20
    Oddly enough, but a plus Yes
    The author raised a topic that could be solved by the powerful USSR with its nationalized economy and solved precisely quantitatively. The author is completely right that we have, in general, separate fleets and each with its own problems, and not one common one. All the wars of the 20th century confirm this (especially colorfully RYAV). And only bringing each of the Fleets into equilibrium on its hypothetical theater of operations with its hypothetical enemy can solve the problem of the survival of this Fleet in a war. So, the USSR could solve this problem quantitatively, but today's Russia with its oligarchic way of life - never! How many ships of the coastal zone with a couple of "Calibers" (analogous to Randol's gunboats) are built, and the stability of the Fleet is given by capital ships, balanced in the "attack-defense" criterion (or a combination of specialized ships, where each separately complements the other). Because patriotism alone is not enough, and the capitalist economy is not capable of giving out what they did in the "seedy scoop."
    So personally, my opinion is that each individual of the Fleets of the Russian Federation in the event of a conflict with an adequate adversary can only die bravely (we leave the strategic nuclear forces behind), because there is no one to help him, but he himself is weak ... Even if all the fleets are reduced to one (for example , Northern) you can still make a couple of squadrons from a motley audience, but in the state that is now - only to die hi
    1. 0
      21 September 2019 00: 38
      In previous articles, the author argued for the opposite - the construction of ships of the first rank, including aircraft carriers and centralized fleet management, something like this. Or I'm wrong?
      1. The comment was deleted.
  11. +3
    19 September 2019 10: 01
    Alexander, good afternoon.
    Thanks, interesting.
    For OPESK and inter-naval maneuver, support vessels are needed. Like amers in due time.
    1. +1
      19 September 2019 11: 29
      Naturally.

      The series is purely theoretical in nature. The fact that the fleet does not exist without ships is already clear.)))
      1. +3
        19 September 2019 18: 43
        Proportion.
        Again to Sobolev, discussions about the tonnage of combat and non-combat, the ratio of sailors and admirals.
        1. +2
          19 September 2019 20: 04
          No bases = growth of auxiliary tonnage.

          No choice.
  12. +7
    19 September 2019 10: 02
    Again, chess players write articles)

    WHY to destroy the fleet of Norway, Japan or something like that?

    What are the political tasks facing the fleet?

    With all possible opponents, we will quite understand on land.
    1. +3
      19 September 2019 10: 43
      But the US Navy will not directly attack.
      Afraid of a nuclear strike in response.
      But the Japanese, Norwegians, or Spaniards may well be not afraid of such a blow, because whatever they say about the whole world in ruin, no one will shoot at countries such as Norway or nuclear skirmishes of ships at sea Spain.
      And the same Spain can provide a blockade of Venezuela, for example, formally without the help of the Americans. And what to do next? Spit? Then you can forget about the allies in principle ....
      1. -1
        19 September 2019 11: 58
        Quote: Avior
        Then you can forget about the allies in principle ....

        profitable to sell / exchange.
      2. -2
        19 September 2019 17: 39
        Okay.

        Spain is blocking Venezuela.

        Transport ships flying the flag of the Russian Federation ignore the blockade and are breaking through.

        Then two options:

        1. The blockade ends.

        2. Transport ships fired (destroyed). This is a casus belli. Aviation and coastal systems of anti-ship missile systems are drowned by all warships that are carrying out the blockade, since all Spanish navies do not have enough striking and anti-aircraft means to suppress ground means and intercept air.
        But this is a war with the country of NATO.
        1. 0
          19 September 2019 18: 32
          Venezuela is far from aviation and coastal complexes of Russia
          1. 0
            19 September 2019 19: 05
            They will appear there very briefly if necessary.

            And if we consider that there is no need - then with her, with Venezuela.
        2. +1
          19 September 2019 19: 27
          This is a casus belli.






          You are hinted-hinted.

          SEAL team 2 poses with the captured Russian flag aboard the cruiser Monterrey. The flag was taken away from the crew of the Russian tucker Volgoneft-147. 2000, Persian Gulf.
        3. +1
          19 September 2019 22: 15
          Quote: Sancho_SP
          Transport ships fired (destroyed). This is a bellie incident


          Better to see once than hear a hundred times.

          1. 0
            20 September 2019 00: 17
            Yes, you, wallpaper, all rightly say. But then bend down - it was a political decision, not a military one.

            But the only reason is not the absence of aircraft carriers, but the absence of eggs. From the billions pumped into the fleet, eggs are unlikely to appear.
            1. +1
              20 September 2019 09: 33
              The trick is that opponents have eggs. Why, and it is necessary for the will to stand force.
              1. +1
                20 September 2019 14: 22
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                The trick is that opponents have eggs. Why, and it is necessary for the will to stand force.

                Maybe war is a failure of diplomacy, but even the best diplomats act on credit. Sooner or later, someone less intelligent than you will demand your contribution back, and if your army cannot cover your debt obligations, you lose.
                © David Weber. The honor of the queen.
                1. 0
                  20 September 2019 14: 48
                  Weber bastard, made impossible the correct translation without loss of meaning))))
    2. 0
      19 September 2019 11: 30
      List of likely opponents (not all)

      USA
      Japan
      United Kingdom

      Well, probably enough for now, although there is still.

      I’m not asking you for anything complicated, just briefly explain how to get to Tokyo by tank, and that’s it.
      1. -3
        19 September 2019 17: 26
        The reason and purpose of the war with Japan? Simple because we can? We have nothing to take from them. They are with us - they can’t do anything.

        If you try - warning 40 cruise missiles with three Tu-160 under the nuclear power plants in Japan. Any attempt at aggression immediately ends without any atomic weapons.

        Although modern doctrine allows atomic weapons to be used in case of an attempt to seize part of the territory of the Russian Federation (for example, the Kuril Islands)
        1. +2
          19 September 2019 20: 08
          If you try - warning 40 cruise missiles with three Tu-160 under nuclear power plants in Japan.


          I have a feeling that some people do not understand the very nature of such a thing as war. Basically.
          1. +4
            19 September 2019 20: 53
            "a good company got together" (c) :-) :-) :-)

            Remembered from Andrey - "Good old nuclear bang."
            It seems like he wrote.
            1. +1
              19 September 2019 21: 05
              The good old way is a square-nested ballistic missile coating with special warheads. Like there was something. Delivered a lot, yes. laughing
          2. -1
            21 September 2019 00: 49
            I have a feeling that the first one who does not understand that there is a war in reality is Timokhin! I’m not sure that there is still a flock in the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation on punishment for inciting a war, but your constant hysterical screams are quite suitable for it. Better play computer games - let out excessive steam.
      2. 0
        21 September 2019 00: 47
        Is this your free translation of the pardoned terrorist who was quietly about entering a tank in the Crimea? Or a few more crazy obsessed with entering a tank in the Kremlin? not even funny! Japan, survived one atomic nightmare, dare to repeat again? Britain, which has been trying to drag chestnuts with the wrong hands throughout history, will suddenly decide to become a target of nuclear missiles? Is the USA capable of making irreparable losses when even permissible losses cause shock in society? The war with the Russian Federation is not a toy war with Iraq, Lebanon, not even Yugoslavia. Do not scare people and do not be scared yourself. Well, just heroic You Timokhin! On a tank in Tokyo, in London, in Washington! Directly an arsonist of war, thank God of a kitchen scale.
  13. +5
    19 September 2019 10: 11
    The article is a reflection on preparing the fleet for peacetime and past wars. This war will last a maximum of several hours, where will your ships be in time?
    1. 0
      19 September 2019 10: 41
      Well, in your scary fantasies it may be so, but in reality it will be a long war.
      1. +1
        19 September 2019 10: 45
        Good luck in a long war if you have enough money.
        1. -1
          27 September 2019 14: 58
          Well, at least I’ll live a little longer (until there is enough money), unlike you, who have caked in a couple of hours).
    2. +6
      19 September 2019 10: 55
      rush off to where the earth will not boil and prepare for post-apocalypse!
      1. +2
        19 September 2019 12: 12
        Quote: novel xnumx
        flush to where the earth will not boil

        hi Healthy flyer .... laughing I know such a land !!! You will receive a bed at a discount wink
        1. +3
          19 September 2019 12: 16
          I’m far from the coast, all the more so since it’s first to fly across the Queen .. I don’t know if you can remember me .. crying
          1. +1
            19 September 2019 12: 44
            Quote: novel xnumx
            I'm far from the shore

            What a shore, buddy! Only mountains can be better than mountains wink
            1. +1
              19 September 2019 12: 47
              and to the mountains, damn it, close to me ..
              1. 0
                21 September 2019 00: 53
                My grandmother guessed that only my family nest would survive in the Kirov region, it really was overgrown with hogweed ... but there was a cellar!
    3. +2
      19 September 2019 11: 10
      Timokhin does not understand this and lives on representations from the stories of Stanyukovich
      1. +2
        19 September 2019 11: 15
        Good stories I must say, I had to read, very interesting. But after all, very distant events were described there and there were no nuclear missiles at that time. Timokhin just cut a little dough.
      2. +4
        19 September 2019 11: 38
        Quote: vladimir1155
        Timokhin does not understand this and lives on representations from the stories of Stanyukovich

        And in your opinion, so that hooligans would not be hit in the face in the street, you must put on a suicide bomber's belt and announce to everyone that if something happens, you will press the button. "In the dust" of the bully, himself, and bystanders. Try it and do not be surprised that you will walk in splendid isolation.
        1. -2
          19 September 2019 13: 03
          Quote: man in the street
          To prevent hooligans from being hit in the face on the street, you need to put on a suicide bomber's belt and tell everyone that if something happens, you will press the button. "In the dust" of the bully, himself, and bystanders. Try it and do not be surprised that you will be walking in splendid isolation.
          ..... well, let’s say that against 45 hooligans jiujtitsu will not help you, no way ...... how much you do not train, and the martyr’s belt yes, even against 300 hooligans it will help, but against a pair of hooligans a couple of frigates will be enough
          1. +1
            19 September 2019 15: 35
            ..... well, let's say so against 45 hooligans, the jujitsu will not help you, no way ...... how many do not train


            I personally did not fight more than two, I was lucky, but I have a couple of friends ... More than a dozen people somehow broke away from the gang "by eye".
            Properly applying lego-athletic training and hand-to-hand fighting skills, knives and various tricks, they managed to break through and get away from the enemy, at the cost of only one knife wound in the arm of one of the heroes. laughing .

            The main thing is to understand what you are doing and to be prepared for this, not to lose your head, and to train properly.
  14. +7
    19 September 2019 10: 37
    With all due respect to the Russian fleets.
    However, how much in modern conditions may a serious fleet maneuver be required in different theaters of operations?
    Take the topic of Japan discussed in the article.
    Will the samurai have any idea of ​​conducting any serious naval campaign against Russia?
    Hiroshima and Nagasaki are not forgotten by them.
    And Russia is one of the leading nuclear and missile powers.
    I don’t remember exactly, but it seems like Gramyko said at one time to one presumptuous islet.
    - "Margaret, don't forget that you live on an island."
    1. +3
      19 September 2019 11: 39
      However, how much in modern conditions may a serious fleet maneuver be required in different theaters of operations?


      It is believed that the Americans did not hit Syria for the third time because of such a maneuver.
      1. +1
        19 September 2019 15: 29
        There the maneuver was diplomatic. In which case, our ships could not have prevented the Americans from fulfilling their plans.
        1. +3
          19 September 2019 19: 56
          Both we and Americans are compelled to assess risks differently.

          For example, ours began to shoot down the Tomahawks and partly shot down, showing it on TV.

          This alone is an unacceptable political damage. Or a missile missed a missile missile launcher, grabbed another one, went to climb, an operator in a BIC on a tracking frigate mixed it with anti-ship missiles, the frigate launched a missile launcher, on a Russian tracking ship it was mistaken for an attack and they responded with fire.

          This is not to the fact that it can easily happen in this form, it is to the fact that at such moments not only controlled, but also uncontrolled escalation is possible.

          Therefore, everyone presses their tails, and rightly so.
          1. 0
            19 September 2019 20: 11
            Described in many ways is diplomacy. In which the fleet took an indirect part. I meant that the balance of forces was such that, by the forces of the fleet alone, at that time and in that region, Russia could do little with a serious aggravation.
            1. +4
              19 September 2019 20: 59
              There was not exclusively a fleet. And this area would not be limited.
              And the enemy did not have any crushing superiority there.
              So he, this very fleet, works.
    2. +4
      19 September 2019 12: 00
      Quote: Livonetc
      Will the samurai have any idea of ​​conducting any serious naval campaign against Russia?

      to respond to any local action by nuclear bombing?
      probably effective?
      nobody has tried it yet.
      gin from the bottle comes out at a time.
      1. +1
        19 September 2019 12: 36
        Therefore, they did not try, because there was no thought to encroach.
        But then answer the next question.
        What is this local action because of which it will be necessary to redeploy the forces and means of the fleets?
        And about the possible use of nuclear weapons.
        That's why they are considered the forces of strategic deterrence.
        And to answer with a constant buildup of forces and means in all directions, no means will be enough.
        No one should have illusions.
        If there is a possibility of exclusion of territories from Russia by any aggressor, the necessary means will be used.
        Including nuclear.
      2. +2
        19 September 2019 12: 50
        Is the attack on Russia, its territory and citizens a local action? Either the Ukrainian elite declares Russia an aggressor, and "forgets" about the declaration of war. laughing
      3. 0
        19 September 2019 14: 20
        to respond to any local action by nuclear bombing?
        why immediately nuclear?
        To sober up the neighbors from encroachment, one non-nuclear missile strike is enough.
  15. +3
    19 September 2019 10: 47
    I agree with the respected Alexander Timokhin about the importance of coastal naval aviation ........ however, the whole formulation of the problem about the torn fleet is empty and does not matter much, surface ships are outdated in the last century, no one goes into battle with halberds muskets and sabers and for a long time, and all the more stupid to go into battle with ships. This means only peacetime against pirates and poachers. In the event of a serious war, only submarines and coastal means will have to be fought, including coast-based aviation. The Baltic and Caspian fleets are generally meaningless, the Black Sea should control the Bosphorus, and on the oceans the whole task of the fleet is to exit and return submarines from bases, as well as air defense and coastal defense of ports. It is enough to have only three fleets and small ones, developing the underwater component and the coastal
    1. +4
      19 September 2019 12: 40
      It’s necessary to increase aviation correctly, because it’s fast, and most importantly universal tool for ANY challenges .. in the states, by the way, there is a fierce war between the fleet and the Air Force, but there the fleet performs at least some kind of task; we DO NOT have this close. Protect Venezuela? No problem, you need the phone number of the head of state sending a hostile fleet to the shores of it. One call and the boats go to the home port. We don’t need to rob someone across the three seas and drag it home, we have to defend our mission by not letting some greyhound, and those that greyhound understand this perfectly, they don’t need to prove anything, they know everything themselves what they can get and how to avoid it.
    2. 0
      19 September 2019 15: 44
      Quote: vladimir1155
      the whole statement of the problem about the fragmentation of the fleet is empty,

      Quote: vladimir1155
      surface ships are outdated in the last century, no one goes into battle with halberds muskets and sabers for a long time, and all the more stupid to go into battle with ships

  16. The comment was deleted.
    1. +5
      19 September 2019 11: 33
      The Russian Navy alone plans to put into service 100 Mtn Poseidons - oceanic "killers" of coastal megacities and industrial zones (producing more than half of the world's GDP) with a 200-fold noise reduction and 25-fold target strength.


      With pink ponies on the sides.

      By the way, Shoigu promised Putin tests in August. And where, huh? Only the tray for tightening the travel layout was screwed onto the Sprocket, the rest turned out to be a bummer. A stone flower doesn’t come out from the masters of the sawing shop; the sawmill has broken.

      We are waiting for organizational conclusions.
      1. +1
        20 September 2019 11: 31
        Confusion:-)
        The Poseidon rocket and the plane and that too.
        Why climb into Latin mythology? Are there any of them?
        Would have called, for example, "Koschey", "Leshy" .... at the extreme "Dashing one-eyed."
        And everything is clear what and how :-)
    2. +2
      19 September 2019 12: 03
      Quote: Operator
      Russia has the best geographic location in the world for using its navy - underwater, of course.

      Wow
      The submarine fleet also needs bases and communications.
      And here everything is either north or locked.
      In general, the curse of Russia is not so much locked seas as the climate itself. This is where it just prevents the North from organizing a lot of things. Well, primates do not like cold.
      Expensive, not always effective. Long .. and again expensive!
      1. -3
        19 September 2019 12: 34
        I do not understand - it’s locked where (in the oceans?) And cold where (under water?) laughing
        1. +1
          19 September 2019 15: 36
          It would be surprising if you understood, Andrey laughing
  17. +5
    19 September 2019 11: 31
    Once upon a time at the USSR Universities, there were accelerated courses for graduates of song and dance schools ... at least no, but all the same, these comrades passed a naval education! So, my personal opinion is that such courses are necessary now ... for national journalists trying to write for the fleet!
    Sasha, when you posted KIMMOV’s reworked articles on VO, it still didn’t go, but when you got into the theory of marine strategy for some reason, it’s already too much!
    Specifically for your article ...
    In this case, the enemy has naval bases around the world, and naval groups on all oceans, it gives him the opportunity to either block the Russian Navy in coastal waters, or attack him there, establishing in any case sea supremacy off our coasts, which will then allow him to use our own coastal zone to attack our territory from the sea.

    Sasha, my soul, if we lived in the days of Nelson, then yes, I would agree with you! But imagine, since then everything has changed a lot in the world! Those same Buyans and Karakurt, which were mixed with manure, the very Calibers that, like a bone in the throat of all Old Grandfathers, Fir Grandfathers, Svarogs and those who joined them, cover the very Naval bases! The AUG of the enemy who came out to block the Russian fleet, after a week of active maneuvering (These Russians are constantly circling above us and dropping their bombs on their plywood U-2) AUG will be forced to roll back the blockade and go to meet the tankers - the ordering officers who left the Metropolis. When the AUG withdraws, it will run economically, and this increases the combat capability of our U-2s and allows us to clear the coastal water area from enemy submarines (withdrawal itself)
    Our fleets are almost impossible to break all at once

    Oh Sasha, brost! With a big mess, all our fleets will be attacked!
    The main striking force of the U.S. Navy - aircraft carriers, can not make the transition to the Panama Canal.

    It is not strange, but since 2016 it can! New locks 55 meters wide, 18,3 meters deep ... Shortly after the opening of the new Panama locks, the Chinese container ship MOL BENEFACTOR 337 meters long (333 meters long Nimitza) passed through the canal.
    I will tactfully keep silent about your KFOR ...
    1. -4
      19 September 2019 11: 37
      The great naval experts Maxim Klimov and Shurochka Timokhin all through the stump of the deck - the Atlantic sound channel in the Norwegian Sea has a depth of 1000 meters, then X-ray is the best means of detecting submarines, then the Panama Canal is not a cake for aircraft carriers laughing
      1. -2
        19 September 2019 15: 59
        Quote: Operator
        The great naval experts Maxim Klimov and Shurochka Timokhin all through the stump of the deck - the Atlantic sound channel in the Norwegian Sea has a depth of 1000 meters,

        Andrew! you when sober upstill read at least one book on acoustics ...
    2. +8
      19 September 2019 11: 56
      And now about the "Gorshkov era"!
      OpEsk is initially a group of ships, the task of which consisted of one single task - to push as far as possible the launch point of the ICBMs of the enemy from our borders, subsequently, after the range of the ICBMs increased significantly, and a bunch of Soviet ships had to be occupied with something, uncles with spiders on the shoulders came up with other tasks ... tracking AUG and projecting forces in the areas of the world Ocean. Even when creating OpESk, everyone perfectly understood that the entire Soviet group advanced into the ocean, in case of a clash, could last a maximum of 2 hours! Therefore, your fantasy of modern OpESk is meaningless!
      The only force capable of this kind of maneuver is aviation

      I completely agree here, moreover, aviation is quite capable of leveling the first threat.
      Once relatively recently, the fleet had not only ships in combat, but also those on conservation that were supposed to replenish the military personnel of the Navy in the threatened period or in case of war

      Oh Sasha, did you see these ships yourself?
      To manage such global actions, it is necessary to restore the Commander-in-Chief and the General Staff of the Navy as full-fledged and full combat control bodies

      What do you specifically mean by that ????
      And so the conclusion ..
      Alexander, your article is at the level of a layman-dreamer ... so do not be offended!
      hi
      1. 0
        19 September 2019 12: 18
        AUG tracking and force projection in areas of the world Ocean. Even when creating OpESk, everyone perfectly understood that the entire Soviet group advanced into the ocean, in the event of a clash, could last a maximum of 2 hours!


        Understood, yes.

        But now we can easily get acquainted with what the Americans understood at those moments. Very instructive, Sergey!

        Oh Sasha, did you see these ships yourself?


        I am somewhat younger than you and did not find them at a conscious age. But the memories of those who revived them later came across.
        Let's just say it is much better than nothing.
        1. -1
          19 September 2019 12: 55
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          But now we can easily get acquainted with what the Americans understood at those moments.

          The Americans simply did not understand what an easy 5th OpESk could be for them!
          1. +2
            19 September 2019 12: 58
            They understood that it was precisely in the circumstances that the one who hit first would survive on the theater. But there is no order to beat - pichalka. And after the volley of Russian will not be in time. This is ALREADY BECAUSE the 5 th playlist would have been completed by OTHER US Navy forces.

            And because of this, the operators of the red buttons and pilots of the U.S. Navy sometimes had sweaty palms and an abnormal gleam in their eyes.
            1. +3
              19 September 2019 13: 07
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              They understood that it was precisely in the circumstances that the one who hit first would survive on the theater. But there is no order to beat - pichalka.

              what Sasha, you can’t even imagine how wet the cream shirts were in the offices of the General Staff of the USSR Navy when the AV "America" ​​left Naples !!! And that kipish at the 52nd point!
              1. 0
                19 September 2019 13: 55
                One does not contradict the other at all.
              2. +2
                19 September 2019 14: 11
                Write so as not to confuse the General and the Chief. AVM.
                There they had showers at that time. On the operational management floor, at least :-)
                And sputum is not an indicator of the quality of work :-) humor.
                And why get wet? Far zone.
                If the Kuril Islands bomb, yes :-)
                1. +1
                  19 September 2019 14: 25
                  Quote: Polinom
                  Write so as not to confuse the General and the Chief.

                  To understand the basics, there are books on this wink
                  Quote: Polinom
                  And why get wet?

                  But how can I tell you ... I need talent to cover my ass too!
        2. +6
          19 September 2019 13: 24
          I can refer to NS 10 OPESK Shinkevich Gennady Iosifovich, in the subsequent beginning of the operas of the KVF.
          They counted on a day of hostilities then everything.
          Tryndets ammunition, as well as fuel (((
          Do not count on help.
          1. +1
            19 September 2019 13: 57
            The only question is what could be achieved during this day.

            And this "what" was quite a significant deterrent until about 83-84 years.
            1. +4
              19 September 2019 14: 12
              I don’t know, not my level.
              Well, the benefit would be .... probably.
              1. +1
                19 September 2019 14: 27
                Well, such a person that he would know for sure and then did not exist and is not present now. But you can guess the possible consequences.
                1. +6
                  19 September 2019 21: 04
                  Well, I had a chance to chat with several people who are planning all this.
                  They explained to me what and how to take into account and how much to know.
                  I scratched my turnips and decided, not for my brains. The same nachoper Shinkevich played with three rivals in his mind, turning his back on the boards. He was in chess
                  1. -1
                    20 September 2019 09: 35
                    Well, the operational department is jeer)))
                    1. +2
                      20 September 2019 11: 38
                      Well, as a normal person, only antsy. Kind of like a chess player, but sometimes a "panic boss".
                      His favorite activity in the exercises was to catch me with a sleeping face on the table.
                      And it was joy :-) He and the Un are now commanded by 311 detachments of the EITI. Well, or what number is there now ....
                      1. 0
                        20 September 2019 12: 04
                        For such a contingent, the brain does not work as it does for ordinary people.
            2. +3
              19 September 2019 14: 30
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              The only question is what could be achieved during this day.

              Not as much as you think! RCCs are few, and target markers are knocked off immediately, SAMs will empty their drums in about 15 minutes, and then, like in the old days .. Polundra, to board the gun, load the gun ... our proud Varangian doesn’t surrender to the enemy !!!!
              1. 0
                19 September 2019 15: 09
                The factor of special warheads is not taken into account, the factor of missile submarines is not taken into account, and in general it is ungrateful to engage in such fortune-telling, it is banal in one case the weather will prevent carrier-based aircraft from flying, and in the other not, in one case the order to strike into the guard will come in time, in the other not , this is all poorly predictable, especially in the form of an alternative history, "and how it would be."
                It could be different.

                But if you take the worst option for yourself, it turns out that you need to behave carefully and not provoke the enemy again. Which both sides basically did.
                1. +3
                  19 September 2019 15: 21
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  Which both sides basically did.

                  I generally have long been proposing to abandon muscle building and move on to the American experience ..... we will organize opposition in the states, pour in money, import tires and Alga Komsomol! And cheap, and success is guaranteed! Over in Texas, the boys suffer from idleness!
                  1. +3
                    19 September 2019 15: 42
                    I had an article on this topic for a long time on another resource. It was called "Destroy America". Right now, there is no longer that resource, but oh well ...

                    One does not contradict the other, Sergey. We slam the USA, but there is no theory of sea power. It’s bad laughing
                    1. +1
                      19 September 2019 15: 45
                      Peace and tranquility in Russia is much more important than theory! And any theory is dependent on the current moment!
              2. -3
                19 September 2019 15: 57
                Quote: Serg65
                RCCs are few, and target indicators are beaten immediately, SAMs will empty their drums in minutes for 15

                YOU "modestly did not notice" that they will devastate them AIM, and the probability of "false orders" here was minimal
      2. +3
        19 September 2019 12: 19
        as a result, the naval school of naval commanders in the seas of VO won .. and who won ?? lol
        1. 0
          19 September 2019 12: 29
          It's too early to take stock laughing
      3. -4
        19 September 2019 15: 56
        Quote: Serg65
        OpEsk is initially a group of ships, the task of which consisted of one single task - to push the enemy’s ICBM launch point as far as possible from our borders, and subsequently, after the range of the ICBMs increased significantly, and a bunch of Soviet ships had to be occupied with something, uncles with spiders on the shoulders came up with other tasks ... tracking AUG and projecting forces in the areas of the world Ocean. Even when creating OpESk, everyone perfectly understood that the entire Soviet group

        OPESk "signed" for their inability to solve the "problem of US Navy SSBNs", but they proved themselves very effectively as a military-political factor
        Quote: Serg65
        Therefore, your fantasy of modern OpESk is meaningless!

        don't bullshit her hurt
        our "list of threats" is not limited to the United States alone
        but even for the USA - the competent use of BS forces is a very serious deterrent
        1. +5
          19 September 2019 17: 13
          Maxim, the topic requires special articles.
          Especially the period of posidonnosti, in 70's.
          When the Ilov districts of 77 and inter-naval maneuvers twice, Tu from Kipelovo to Khorol in an attempt to get SSBNs in the south. Together with OPEESK.
          1. 0
            19 September 2019 17: 54
            Quote: Polinom
            Maxim, the topic requires special articles.
            Especially the period of posidonnosti, in 70's.
            When the Ilov districts of 77 and inter-naval maneuvers twice, Tu from Kipelovo to Khorol in an attempt to get SSBNs in the south. Together with OPEESK.

            totally agree
            planned (a series on the history of the post-war submarine), and here, in
            however, after "hitting" the VO there are problems with their release, and not only on the VO
            1. 0
              19 September 2019 20: 46
              Maxim, write on Yandex Zen then, or on YouTube, start your own channel with analytics and historical insight - there such a topic quickly gathers views. Your information should be disseminated to the masses by any means.
      4. 0
        19 September 2019 17: 47
        Sergei! You are right with the definition. Everything would be fine if the author did not claim the creation of a new naval theoretical base with an appeal to the patriotic public. Rocking the public is easy, but God forbid these cries will be taken seriously in the Moscow Region and the government. I don’t understand where such ambitions (for me it’s just so unhealthy) come from for a person whose Wikipedia is the first in the list of literary sources chosen to build the latest theory.
        1. -1
          19 September 2019 17: 52
          Quote: LeonidL
          taken seriously in MO

          in MO Timokhin EXACTLY READ wink
          1. -1
            19 September 2019 17: 58
            And they even answered my question very specifically, what is the opinion - we do not comment on the "GS".
            1. -2
              19 September 2019 18: 16
              Quote: LeonidL
              And they even answered my question very specifically, what is the opinion - we do not comment on the "GS".

              You are not tired of running into lies
              and the LIE is stupid, stupid, "childish"
              on which, unlike YOUR lying diarrhea, Timokhin DOCUMENTED
              1. +2
                19 September 2019 22: 28
                Well, you, my dear, have gotten me! He cited documents on the trade in shells, cited napalm in the kitchen, cited how he beat a man to a hospital bed, how ... You just started a tantrum. Relax, heal. By the way, you are one such ardent defender of Timokhin’s article, does this bother you? I don’t notice you anymore, I'm tired of it.
          2. +6
            19 September 2019 18: 49
            Yes. And not only there. The advisers of the defense committee make statements and sometimes give their bosses their ideas :-)
      5. gor
        0
        20 September 2019 14: 15
        > Even during the creation of the OpEsk, everyone understood perfectly well that the entire Soviet group put forward into the ocean, in the event of a clash, could last a maximum of 2 hours!

        I read VO for a long time. And I had a rather flattering opinion about you ... Now I am inclined to believe that you always troll, there is such a class of people

        So here. I am a land rat, but I served in the GSVG, if at all you know what it is. For the West, it was a terrible dream - after a couple of days, the T-80 rested on the Atlantic Ocean. And we, the GSVG soldiers, were told that our combat mission was to hold out for a week, until the main forces arrived

        It’s such a modern war.
    3. -1
      19 September 2019 12: 15
      The same Buyans and Karakurts, who were mixed with manure, the very Caliber, which like a bone in the throat of any Old Dedkov, FirDedka, Svarog and those who joined them, cover the very Naval bases!


      To Diego Gasia will finish? To Guam? Pearl Harbor? Yes, at least Rota?

      AUG of the Werrag who left to block the Russian fleet


      A good theory is different in that it is always true. We need to block the vervag our main strike asset - the SSBN. And he will obviously not do this.
      And it started, right?
      PMO provide, EIT support, provide air defense of the base, search for IPL before leaving the submarine from the base, conduct an outfit of forces capable of moving the outer boundary of the PLO beyond the range of application Mk48 ensure that all this is covered from the air, in the narrowness along the route in the diesel engine air defense system, withdraw in advance, PLAT to protect the SSBNs according to the same scheme, withdraw in advance, the KGU for preventing the enemy surface ships and destroying his BPA aircraft should also hang out somewhere. The result of all this, for example, the dominance of maritime communications Avachinsky Bay-the fourth Kuril passage-air defense missile system in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk. In order to be able to drive the SSBNs through this communication and provide them with combat stability.

      Everything is strictly theoretical.

      What do you propose? Gunboats to build? The whole Caspian flotilla is the equivalent of two Tu-160 or six Tu-95 in a salvo of the Kyrgyz Republic.

      The second point - remember the great exercises on the Syrian coast - about that time, the Americans quietly merged with the plans of the third missile strike on Syria. And if we had a brood of Buyanov-M in the sea, would they be scared?

      Well, yes, do not reduce everything to a war with the United States, a direct clash with amers in full force is much less likely than a limited "incident" when the parties sharply back down, both, or rather than sending a ramming state to a state that has fallen into madness. who will not be able to beat with nuclear weapons.

      Well and yes, Nimitz has a deck width of 78 meters, the deck is sponsored. I would like to see some calculations on its passage through the Panama Canal
      1. +2
        19 September 2019 12: 33
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        To Diego Gasia will finish? To Guam? Pearl Harbor?

        Without even remembering the apocalypse .... why bother getting there? Here and there ... it's time and it will work for us and not for them!
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Yes, at least Rota?

        And here it will finish! Without entering Turkish water to Rota in a straight line 2 thousand km!
        For the Navy, the newest high-precision ship-based Caliber-M cruise missile is being developed with a maximum firing range of more than 4,5 thousand km. The creation of the rocket is at the stage of scientific research and funded by the Ministry of Defense

        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Well, a good theory is different in that it is always true.

        laughing Are you sure about that? AUG itself is very vulnerable ... at least in logistics!
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        We need to block the vervag our main strike asset - the SSBN. And he will obviously not do this.

        Aug will cover those whom you mean!
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        What do you propose?

        I suggest not running ahead of the engine wink
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        And if we had a brood of Buyanov-M in the sea, would they be scared?

        laughing Dear Sasha, the inclusion of radar detection on Soviet MRCs in the island zone, has already forced Americans to leave the area!
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Well, yes, don’t reduce everything to a war with the USA,

        And with whom to reduce?
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Nimitz has a deck width of 78 meters

        41 waterline and sponsons are not direct!
        1. 0
          19 September 2019 12: 45
          Without even remembering the apocalypse .... why bother getting there?


          You raised the topic, you justify why.

          Are you sure about that? AUG itself is very vulnerable ... at least in logistics!


          I know. But the point here is not at all about AUG actually.

          Dear Sasha, the inclusion of radar detection on Soviet MRCs in the island zone, has already forced Americans to leave the area!


          Because those RTOs could shoot at ships. Buyany-M can only on condition that there is an external control center. And they have problems with seaworthiness, and in terms of speed, the Gadfly makes them like a bull to a sheep, and even in those glorious Soviet times, the "Americans" skimmed the area only on the water, but never under it.

          And with whom to reduce?


          Do we have few opponents in the world? Let me ask you, would you believe in 1981 that Argentina would soon attack Britain?
          And now, very chaotic times are approaching, some countries may throw a similar focus. In relation to us.

          41 waterline and sponsons are not direct!


          The height of the walls in the gateways there is also not small, if anything, I have doubts that the sponsons will crawl through.
          1. +4
            19 September 2019 13: 23
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            You raised the topic, you justify why.

            Well, as I already told you ..
            Quote: Serg65
            Here and there ... it's time and it will work for us and not for them!

            Quote: timokhin-aa
            But the point here is not at all about AUG actually.

            And about whom?
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Buyan-M can only on condition that there is an external TSU.

            So all the same can?
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            The gadfly makes them like a bull to a sheep,

            And why do you need these races?
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            The "Americans" skimmed the area only on the water, but never under it.

            laughing You are all trying to push a future war under water, but then why do you need a surface fleet? We build nuclear submarines in batches and all things!
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Would you believe in 1981 that Argentina would soon attack Britain?

            Well then, let's talk in a different plane ...
            Russia began a war with Britain over Dogger Banks, as a result of fighting the UK is on the verge of defeat .... do you think that Uncle Sam will not harness? If the Americans consider that this is not their war, then all their allies will turn their backs on them!
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            I have doubts that sponsons will crawl through.

            As far as I know, new locks were made taking into account the wiring of aircraft carriers.
            1. +1
              19 September 2019 14: 33
              Russia started a war with Great Britain because of the cans dogger, as a result of the fighting, Great Britain is on the verge of defeat .... do you think that Uncle Sam will not harness?


              Well, why immediately with a trump card laughing ?

              Will Uncle Sam harness ... It depends on a lot of factors. For example, whether Britain asks for help. And on how long this conflict will drag on. And from the position of the US Congress, which should give "the go-ahead" for the US to enter the war, at least for sure.

              Well, then we still need to determine, and HOW he will harness - by force or by supply of equipment, openly, or volunteers in British uniform will change clothes and so on.

              As far as I know, new locks were made taking into account the wiring of aircraft carriers.


              Well, we are waiting for the photo then. The height of the walls there is considerable, about the same as the side of the Iowa, the Wasp is just a little too far from the take-off deck.
              1. +3
                19 September 2019 14: 45
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                Well, why immediately with a trump card

                Well have so queen wink
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                It depends on a lot of factors.

                Well then, the question is for the Americans ... and what the hell did you muddle up with this NATU, and you beg money from Europe for defense?
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                Well, wait for the photo then

                We wait..
                1. +1
                  19 September 2019 14: 49
                  Well, you are the queen, but I always drove more princesses laughing laughing

                  Well then, the question is for the Americans ... and what the hell did you muddle up with this NATU, and you beg money from Europe for defense?


                  NATU muddied in a slightly different historical era. Then the missiles were different, and the warheads too, and indeed there was a completely different reality than now.
                  1. +3
                    19 September 2019 14: 56
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    muddied in a slightly different historical era

                    So the result was planned the same!
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    there was a completely different reality than now.

                    The reality has not gone away, everything is the same ... the USSR is the enemy, Russia is the enemy!
                    1. +3
                      19 September 2019 15: 05
                      Yes, but the boundary conditions are different, and very different. And with them the price of mistakes is different. And this affects the final decisions of the parties.
        2. +1
          19 September 2019 13: 04
          And here it will finish! Without entering Turkish water to Rota in a straight line 2 thousand km!
          For the Navy, the newest high-precision ship-based Caliber-M cruise missile is being developed with a maximum firing range of more than 4,5 thousand km. The creation of the rocket is at the stage of scientific research and funded by the Ministry of Defense

          Well, shoot straight through Turkey, a strong move. But the consequences are poorly predictable.
          In addition, being developed and adopted, it is far from the same thing, as you understand.
          1. +2
            19 September 2019 13: 36
            Quote: Avior
            the consequences are poorly predictable.

            In that situation there will be no time for consequences!
            Quote: Avior
            developed and adopted - far from the same thing

            And won tonight is scheduled ????
        3. -3
          19 September 2019 15: 52
          Quote: Serg65
          Dear Sasha, the inclusion of radar detection on Soviet MRCs in the island zone, has already forced Americans to leave the area!

          Madame Seryozha, YOURS partners apparently told you very shocking Tales
          only YOU go with them ... to the ducks laughing
          1. +1
            19 September 2019 15: 56
            Klimkin, why did you dump the fleet?
            1. -4
              19 September 2019 16: 09
              Madame Serg65, YOU are confusing your "Leningrad" woman with the Foreign Ministry 404
              visit Aibolita
      2. +2
        19 September 2019 13: 12
        Alexander, all this has been thought over for a long time, calculated and tested on exercises.
        Only political will is needed, and it just does not exist. One talking room.
    4. -3
      19 September 2019 15: 47
      Quote: Serg65
      everything has changed a lot! The same Buyans and Karakurts, which were mixed with manure, the very Caliber, which like a bone in the throat of any Old Dedki, FirDedka, Svarog and those who joined them, cover the very Naval bases!

      fool
      Seryozhenka, I would recommend YOU to tie with "heavy" wassat and visit Aibolit (it is better to rave about him and not on the forum)

      PS BEFORE TAKING NONSENSE, TAKE AN INTERESTED CRIMBY COSTS FOR THIS
      and then compare this with the BK of the Navy of the Russian Federation
      1. -1
        19 September 2019 15: 59
        Maksimushka, but don’t knock yourself on the head, it’s already empty in it !!!
        Quote: Fizik M
        INQUIRY THE SALMON REQUIRED COSTS FOR THIS
        and then compare this with the BK of the Navy of the Russian Federation

        You, Malholny, were going to fight tomorrow morning?
        1. -5
          19 September 2019 16: 11
          Quote: Serg65
          was going to fight tomorrow morning?

          Mademoiselle Serg65 (Sergei), YOUR education and mind is not enough to understand that even by the mid-2020s, with the implementation of "all plans" without disruption, they (in the non-nuclear version) WILL NOT ENOUGH
  18. +5
    19 September 2019 12: 20
    The author, undoubtedly, has literary talent and a fairly solid information base, thanks to which his articles from a turbopatriotic audience, far from a professional understanding of issues of strategy and tactics, enjoy unchanged success.
    As for the actual application of the author’s ideas in practice, of course, questions arise. For example.
    For example, satellite reconnaissance made it possible to detect the loading of supplies on all Japanese submarines at the same time. This is an intelligence sign. And without additional expectation, the ships of the Northern and Black Sea Fleets allocated to the OPESK are preparing to go to sea, get ammunition, go to sea, meet, and if within a couple of three days after this the Japanese do not receive a clear explanation, the group begins the transition to The Indian Ocean, having the reserve task of demonstrating the flag and business calls, that is, essentially helping domestic diplomats, and the main one, is to be ready to move to the Pacific Ocean and immediately enter the war against Japan.
    And here comes this grouping with a reserve task in the Indian Ocean, and here, when it is somewhere on the beam of Cape Igolny, "satellite reconnaissance has revealed the loading of supplies to all French and British submarines at the bases at the same time." Moreover, there is not a single German submarine in Eckernförd. This is a reconnaissance sign !!! And OPESK urgently changes course by 180 degrees, starting the opposite transition. And on the approach to the Danish Straits, "satellite reconnaissance made it possible to again detect the loading of supplies on all Japanese submarines at the bases at the same time." And all back.
    That is, enemy submarines, without leaving their home bases, will practically drown the OPESK, since the resource of the ships has a limit and after several "jerks" will be reduced to zero. And I propose to evaluate the financial results of such "raids" to the author.
    1. +1
      19 September 2019 12: 31
      Well, you really don’t simplify everything. This is one intelligence item in my article, but really there is no one intelligence attribute. Never.

      But do not put everything in the format of the article.
      1. +3
        19 September 2019 12: 45
        But do not put everything in the format of the article.
        And in the format of the comment and even more so. I meant that your plan with the OPEC is very good for misinformation from potential opponents, whose headquarters, despite the deep confidence of certain sections of the population, are by no means fools.
        1. 0
          19 September 2019 12: 59
          Well, remember the Indian Ocean 1971 year, for example.
          1. +3
            19 September 2019 13: 30
            If you mean the "Indo-Pakistani incident" of 1971 and the participation of the USSR Navy there, then this moment does not fit our question at all, you should not press the hunchback against the wall.
            1. 0
              19 September 2019 14: 34
              Why not fit?
              1. +3
                19 September 2019 16: 19
                What part of your plans illustrates the presence of Pacific Fleet ships in the Indian Ocean during the conflict?
                1. 0
                  19 September 2019 16: 57
                  It demonstrates the entire first article in the series, and from this one is the lead in deployment.
                  1. +2
                    19 September 2019 18: 38
                    deployment preemption.
                    Because no one needed this deployment. In the event of preparation for a serious conflict, a potential adversary of such a deployment will simply not allow it.
                    1. -2
                      19 September 2019 20: 01
                      In the event of preparation for a serious conflict, a potential adversary of such a deployment will simply not allow it.


                      How?
                      1. +4
                        19 September 2019 20: 24
                        Are you out of stubbornness arguing, or are you really unaware of how the counteraction, supply, replenishment and movement of enemy naval formations into the combat area is opposed?
                      2. -1
                        19 September 2019 21: 01
                        No, not out of obstinacy, I just slightly imagine how harmful and dangerous it is to start ahead of time. The enemy, however, may not be limited to the conflict zone.

                        This is actually a somewhat hopeless situation.
                      3. +3
                        19 September 2019 21: 04
                        This is actually a somewhat hopeless situation.
                        Like Lenin in 1917, today is early, tomorrow is late.
                      4. -1
                        20 September 2019 09: 37
                        No, just a hit without full concentration can turn out to be a blow to yourself.
                      5. +6
                        19 September 2019 21: 15
                        War does not start right away with a click.
                        Intelligence and analytics exist on both sides.
                        For this, a translation into the highest degrees of BG by an administrative order was invented ..
                        Counter forces also need time to turn around.
                        Stirring one side immediately leads to the stirring of the other.
      2. +5
        19 September 2019 12: 58
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Well, you really don’t simplify everything.

        Why is it so? To fight like that ... as an adult bully
        1. 0
          19 September 2019 14: 35
          The whole world is in ruin! laughing
      3. +2
        19 September 2019 13: 09
        I do not want to offend your opponent.
        But he writes nonsense :-)
        1. +3
          19 September 2019 13: 25
          Specify whom you do not want to insult?
          1. +1
            19 September 2019 13: 48
            For example, satellite reconnaissance made it possible to detect the loading of supplies on all Japanese submarines at the same time.

            Comment further?
            1. +3
              19 September 2019 16: 08
              Those. Do you think that the author wrote nonsense? After all, these are the words of the author.
              1. -1
                19 September 2019 16: 58
                The author has oversimplified, because such things are usually seriously masked, well, replace this example with any other — intelligence reports, changing the nature of the radio networks by suddenly dispersing aviation or fuel supplies for it — whatever, it’s important for me to show the principle.
                1. +4
                  19 September 2019 17: 15
                  The word "simultaneously" knocks out the meaning completely :-)
                2. +1
                  19 September 2019 18: 36
                  This does not change the essence of the issue.
                  1. +2
                    19 September 2019 21: 16
                    The question does not change, the meaning changes. :-)
            2. 0
              19 September 2019 18: 36
              Quote: Polinom
              For example, satellite reconnaissance made it possible to detect the loading of supplies on all Japanese submarines at the same time.

              Comment further?

              no, just don't cling to individual words
              real intelligence signs in open media, if they can be discussed, then with very large bills
  19. +4
    19 September 2019 12: 25
    Well, yes, I also have the feeling that Timokhin is a little different from whom he is trying to pass himself off. I noticed this even from past publications, when he fiercely criticized the "patrolmen" but about this he strenuously "drowned" for the construction of corvettes 20380, not the most successful ships, judging by the numerous reviews.
    I am not a very strong specialist, but from numerous publications I understood the following: they have no sane air defense, the maximum is self-defense against single raids. PLO is actually anti-torpedo, i.e. It cannot provide PLO connections or bases. Of the advantages - only "strike", a kind of overgrown MRK capable of operating only under the cover of base aviation.
    So it turns out that in the event of a big war, he will not get any of the opponents, because will not be able to get out from under the coastal "umbrella", in order to drive boats conditional in Ukraine or Georgia - it is redundant, much cheaper "kakrakurt" will do it perfectly, and cheaper (and autonomous) "patrolmen" can be used to demonstrate the flag
    No wonder they were not laid or even planned after 16, but a larger and more multi-functional Mercury was laid against which, again, Timokhin himself very sharply and fiercely speaks out, not even knowing all about his technical characteristics.

    PS All this is strange.
    1. +1
      19 September 2019 12: 54
      They have no air defense, the maximum is self-defense against single raids


      And in the group?

      PLO is actually anti-torpedo, i.e. It cannot provide PLO of connections or bases.


      The helicopter on board is also anti-torpedo, right? He can’t do only one thing with his full-time anti-submarine weapon — to destroy an atomic submarine that had discovered it in advance and was evading an attack. Rather, it can’t even without a helicopter, with a helicopter there are quite a few chances.
      But he can do the rest.
      Dieselyuha, for example, just kills.

      and laid the larger and more versatile Mercury


      Well, let's compare the functionality of Mercury with the functionality of 20385 nailed for it. Can you?

      Or let’s take a typical task - transferring the property of a motorized rifle battalion to a container ship requisitioned by the Navy, the task is to provide a group of ships with a PLO, provide a reflection of the air attack for the time necessary for the arrival of its fighters, provide protection from enemy surface ships, even from some corvettes.
      Speed ​​on transition 19 nodes.

      How can patrollers accomplish this task? I am sure you are giving an exhaustive answer, once you undertake to be clever.
      1. -1
        20 September 2019 09: 32
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        And in the group?

        what's in the group? that is, a pair of zero air defense in your opinion already gives one? Arithmetic was forgotten 0 + 0 = 0, of course, such corvettes as the MRK were a mistake in view of leaving the RMSD, but since the mass construction of surface ships is a mistake, I don’t see much difference, ..... a very hypothetical and unsolvable task in wartime to escort a cargo ship, either it will be necessary to collect everything from all the seas, or to abandon this task ......... well, can you risk a frigate for this task and is it worth it? .... here is the first Pacific squadron not even defending itself could, stayed at the port of Arthur until delivery ...... Mercury is just as coastal and of little use as a corvette, but it costs less, that’s its advantage.
        1. 0
          20 September 2019 11: 10
          There is not zero air defense there, just a separate corvette cannot repel a massive raid. The group is another matter.
      2. +2
        20 September 2019 23: 47
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        The helicopter on board is also anti-torpedo, right?
        sw. Alexander, don't be nervous, right. But on the same 22160, the same Ka-27 can also nest ...?! and this is the only somewhat effective (and even then relatively) means of dealing with the enemy submarine, but the cost of building one unit 20380 already in 20 billion, probably does not fit, and 22160 and up to 10 billion does not reach !! As they say - "feel the difference!" ... But I would still prefer 11661K for PLO (on a diesel chassis / power plant DDA-12000), and it would be cheaper than 20380, by 4-6 billion, for each unit, and more efficient.
        1. -1
          21 September 2019 16: 21
          SW. Alexander, don’t be nervous, right. But on the same 22160, the same Ka-27 can also nest


          It is impossible to only determine the moment when it needs to be raised, it is impossible to catch up with a jerking off a submarine in bad weather, it is impossible to repulse its torpedo attack, it is impossible to escort a convoy of high-speed transports, etc.

          Unlike the corvette.
          1. 0
            22 September 2019 10: 43
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Only to determine the moment when it needs to be raised is impossible,

            I agree only partly, because if not in a group, but singly, then GAS "Zarya" (pr. 20380) is far from "the most powerful ear", and the nuclear submarine will hear the corvette much further, and 15-25 km away from itself let ...
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            impossible to catch up with a jerking submarine in bad weather
            yes, but also the speed of, say, Los Angeles improved, more than both projects, so here, as they say 1: 1 ...
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            to repulse her torpedo attack is not possible
            , - here you are absolutely right, Alexander !!, because on 22160 there is not even a "Packet-NK" ... 1: 0, in your favor, but this applies only to patrolman 22160 (because he is a patrolman by appointment!). But if we looked at the example with 11661-K and compared it with 20380 (as a more rational example of spending funds on the construction of PLO ships at BMZ), then with the help of RBU-6000, it would no longer look defenseless during a torpedo attack, wouldn't it? (just comparing ships of the same class would seem more honest) ?! ...
            1. 0
              22 September 2019 14: 06
              and singly, the GAS "Zarya" (pr. 20380) is far from "the most powerful ear"


              But on the whole this is a good "ear", even by world standards, a confident average. And the patrolman has zero. In addition, you are oversimplifying in terms of hydroacoustics - for example, in places like the Persian Gulf, the "package" goes very far. SJC "Polynom", for example, breaks the entire Persian Gulf from the Strait of Hormuz - everything depends on the conditions.

              yes, but also the speed of, say, Los Angeles improved, more than both projects, so here, as they say 1: 1 ...


              The fact is that no matter how "improvised" Los Angeles may be, his speed gain is limited by how quickly the reactor can be brought to full power. The Americans have made tremendous progress here, but still, the submarine will not go from 15 to 30 knots at once. And there will always be a certain range of speeds in which the corvette will pick up speed faster, and the advantage of the PLA will begin after 25 knots.
              22160 here is a complete zero, absolute.

              But if we were considering an example with 11661-K


              The project you are dreaming of has another issue, 1166* wink

              I agree that it is good to be rich and healthy and poorly poor and sick, do not hesitate. But there are also the realities of our days, alas.
              1. 0
                22 September 2019 22: 15
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                But on the whole this is a good "ear", even by world standards, a confident average. And the patrolman has zero.
                so I say that comparing ships of different classes and destinations is incorrect initially (wrote about the above, I'm sorry, but you were not careful) ... and as for -
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                SJC "Polynom", for example, breaks through the entire Persian Gulf ...
                , then here you, without hesitation, allowed yourself to substitute the concepts ("Dawn" and "Polynomial" !!! What's wrong with you ???), they are far from being compared by class, like "Zaporozhets" and "Mercedes" ?! Have you deliberately compared the incomparable?

                Quote: timokhin-aa
                The project you are dreaming of ...
                , it's not so much that I'm dreaming about 1166 * (as you called it), it's just for me as a layman, there is a lot that is not clear here ?! For example, information from the site - http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-438.html ... easily makes me think that he (pr.11661-K / E) was designed as a replacement for the old Albatrosses and it was worked out with the same GAS "Zarya" by the way, as well as pr. 20380 (which you sometimes defend so zealously, but I don't understand why exactly ?!) and was miscalculated in different versions, incl. and for a diesel-diesel power plant of 4 MTU diesel engines (and since then, under sanctions, on pr. 20385, about the same, they were able to substitute import for DDA-12000 ?!), then God himself would have told to use it! And most importantly, this project would be cheaper to build / manufacture, each new unit for the fleet. After all, it is not so "overloaded" with novelties of electronic equipment and expensive "Redoubt", which is without the "Poliment" radar (which, in turn, cannot be crammed onto a corvette of such a small VI as 20380 ?!), but to work effectively without it he is not fully capable. The question arises - then why on the OVR ship, such an air defense complex ?! And this complex is also not cheap, is it? Effectively deal with enemy submarines, while the corvette 20380 at a distance of over 18 km. there is simply nothing (there is simply no UKSK for the use of "caliber-pl" missiles nor the TA 533 mm), and this is at a price already over 18 billion. for a unit, for "incompetent in its composition of weapons" for the performance of its main direct functions of the OVR in the BMZ ship ?! This is despite the fact that there is a well-developed and working project 11661 nearby (which, for example, for Zelenodolsk, for example, builds quite quickly, that is, there are competencies!), And in terms of the composition of its weapons, it is much better balanced for the implementation of the same functions (and UKKS and TA already exists!, it remains to return, as in the initial draft of the GAS Dawn, and the import-replaced and mastered by the GEM industry!). So the question is tormenting me: how rationally are the funds allocated to the defense budget used (in terms of building the fleet) ?!

                Quote: timokhin-aa
                I agree that it’s good to be rich and healthy and poorly poor and sick
                , and I completely agree with you here, but now forgive what?
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                But there are also the realities of our days, alas.
                Oh yes !!! But, if it was an allegory, then it is a country that does not spend its funds as rationally as possible (including the construction of its fleet), and at the same time complains about the constant lack of funds, for him, then I need it (this country ) is very reminiscent of a person who prefers to drink wine, whiskey and expensive cigars while sitting at home instead of taking daily morning jogs and other sports, and then suddenly complains of an unexpectedly old age and decay. Do not find?
                1. -1
                  23 September 2019 11: 42
                  so I say that comparing ships of different classes and destinations is incorrect initially


                  That's just the money you have, or for one class, or for another. In this case, it is necessary to compare projects in order to understand what kind of project and what gives.

                  Have you intentionally compared the incomparable?


                  I just gave an example of the fact that in different conditions the GAS works differently and your range figures for which Zarya works are essentially convention.

                  easily makes me think that it (Project 11661-K / E) was designed as a replacement for the old Albatrosses


                  No, this is not true, it was designed for Vietnam and it accidentally hit our fleet.

                  The question arises - then why on the OVR ship, such an air defense complex ?! And this complex is also not cheap, is it? Effectively deal with enemy submarines, while the corvette 20380 at a distance of over 18 km. there is simply nothing (there is simply no UKSK for the use of "caliber-pl" missiles, nor the TA 533 mm), and this is at a price already in excess of 18 billion. per unit, for a ship "incapacitated in its composition of armament" to perform its main direct functions of the OVR in BMZ ?! This is despite the fact that nearby there is a worked out and working project 11661 (which for Vietnam, for example, Zelenodolsk is building quite quickly, that is, there are competencies!), And in terms of the composition of its weapons for performing the same functions it is much better balanced (and the UKSK and TA already exists!,


                  You are confusing. 20380 as an antisubmarine man hides the Vietnamese 11661E like a bull a sheep, the Vietts have no UKSK, no PLUR, PU 3S-14 is on "Dagestan" but there is no PLO from the word "in general".

                  Understand.
                  1. 0
                    26 September 2019 21: 17
                    [quote = timokhin-aa] here I am saying that comparing ships of different classes and destinations is incorrect initially

                    That's just the money you have, or for one class, or for another. In this case, it is necessary to compare projects in order to understand what kind of project and what gives. [/ quote]

                    And here, here is a blatant lie (!!) otherwise, dear interlocutor, you would not allow yourself last year, an article about 20386, which read: "building 20386 is more than a crime" (by the way, many, like me, agreed) !!! So you are well aware that the funds allocated for the construction of the Navy can be allocated, and their volume (quantity) is used with varying degrees of rationality !!! And this is exactly the main thing!

                    [quote = timokhin-aa] I just gave an example of the fact that under different conditions the GAS works differently and your range numbers that Zarya works for are essentially convention. [/ quote]

                    Sori, my dear interlocutor - Alexander. But you allowed yourself to compare here a comfortable cargo "Mercedes Actros", which has the ability to pull semitrailers (trailers, if it is more convenient for the layman) with a carrying capacity of 10-30 tons, and a passenger "Zaporozhets" (this is what concerns GAS "Polynom" and " Zarya ")?! Don't confuse the difference ?!

                    [quote = timokhin-aa] No, this is not true, it was designed for Vietnam and came to our fleet by accident. [/ quote]. Uv. Alexander, or share with me the information confirming this statement of yours, or you did not carefully read the link that I gave you earlier ... It was designed specifically for our fleet, as a replacement for the aging Albatrosses ...! [/ quote]

                    [quote = timokhin-aa] You are confusing. 20380 as an anti-submarine man hides the Vietnamese 11661E hides, the Vietnamese do not have UKSK, there is no PLUR, PU 3C-14 is on "Dagestan" but there is no PLO from the word "in general." [/ Quote]. My dear interlocutor, but due to the lack of weapons systems that allow attacking submarines of a potential enemy at a distance of over 18 km. (the maximum range of the "Packet-NK" system), project 20380, simply cannot, as you have deigned to say, "cover a sheep like a bull," anyone, in particular, the Vietnamese 11661 E, which still have normal 533 mm TA! !

                    But if, listening to common sense, you will cease to be (for reasons I do not understand, for now) a slave to contradictions, and suddenly, you will not realize that it is the construction of PLO corvettes, project 11661-K (E), (I emphasize - which would have UKSK, like "Dagestan", and GAS "Zarya", which it lost during its construction (due to the fact that it fell on the "dashing 90s", and it was temporarily unclear what exactly the fleet wants), on the running power plant DDA-12000), allows precisely with this project, to cover the needs of the fleet, in two classes of surface ships at once, namely the PLO and MRK corvette !! Despite the fact that the construction price of one unit, such a ship, will not exceed the construction price of one 20380?! In your opinion, is this not important ?!

                    And the last thing I would like to say. In my opinion, if the Navy wanted, in a fairly short time, to create a project of an inexpensive escort / convoy / ship, then just the chances of project 22160 had the greatest weight. In the sense that, having lengthened this ship by 15-20 meters, but having inscribed in it (design and during construction) stationary VPU 3s-90 for 24 Shtil-1 cells, also GAS Zarya, two transverse ( as on "Karakurt") 2 to 8 cells UKSK (3s-14), and two full 2 ​​to 3 guides 533 mm TA (plus "Package-NK" or
                    RBU-6000, for self-defense, I don’t know what is more effective for an anti-torpedo attack), and it seems to me that even such a ship would be more useful than pr. 20380, though here it is already possible that it would not be cheaper. But it seems to me, if more expensive, then not significantly ...?!

                    [quote = timokhin-aa] But you have money either for one class, or for another. [/ quote]. Well, money, in principle .... They either exist at all, or (especially if you are "pummeled" with such projects as 20380 and 20386) then they are not there, as it were ?! But if in fact, for the sum of one 20386 and two 20380, you can probably build one BOD 1155 (like "Chabaneko", where instead of inclined 2 to 4 launchers "Rastrub-B" there would appear 2 to 6 inclined for "Onyx", the same GAS "Zvezda-2", instead of the second turret gun / on this site / 16-24 cells for the UKSK 3s-14, and instead of the second (stern) SAM "Dagger", PU for the SAM "Polyment-Redut", with the corresponding control room and antenna ...
    2. +1
      19 September 2019 12: 59
      Quote: Rakovor
      All this is strange.

      laughing As the best friend of all the children of the world said ... this is not casual!
    3. +5
      19 September 2019 13: 07
      A seditious thought that has been in the minds of many for a long time.
      The famous character the CIA took on something in the GDR.
      Hence the dizzying career. And financial in the face of Berezovsky and nomenclature in the face of Zyuganov, Yavlinsky, EBN and others.
      All tactical wins lead to strategic failures.
      The population is not prone to analysis, even in the short run.
      There will be nothing, calm down.
    4. -2
      19 September 2019 15: 49
      Quote: Rakovor
      but about this strenuously "drowned" for the construction of corvettes 20380, not the most successful ships, judging by the numerous reviews.
      I am not a very strong specialist, but from the numerous publications I realized the following: they have no air defense, the maximum is self-defense against single raids. PLO is actually anti-torpedo, i.e. It cannot provide PLO of connections or bases

      and to carry out their MODERNIZATION (with the elimination of these shortcomings) "who does not give"? Timokhin?
      or still, those who saw the loot on 20380 and are now sawing further on 20386?
    5. +1
      19 September 2019 17: 53
      It’s just that in one article, the author forgets what he wrote in the previous one, and since the articles are pretty, then he’s great in his thoughts.
    6. +3
      19 September 2019 21: 06
      Quote: Rakovor
      he will not reach any of the opponents, tk. will not be able to get out from under the coastal "umbrella"

      ship DMZ and should not go out from under the umbrella.

      Quote: Rakovor
      laid the larger and more versatile Mercury

      which in terms of PLO does not exceed Project 20380, in terms of air defense it will be approximately similar to the upgraded 20380 with IBMK. Only 20386 will be twice as expensive.
    7. -1
      21 September 2019 00: 01
      Quote: Rakovor
      It’s not without reason that after 16 years they don’t even lay down, or even plan,
      and thank God that 20380 is no longer laid !! but here, -
      Quote: Rakovor
      and they laid down a larger and more versatile Mercury, against which, again, the very same Timokhin very sharply and fiercely opposes,
      here, I probably would have already sided with Timokhin !! For how much it in reality ("Mercury") will turn out to be multifunctional, - time will show, but here is how a "black hole" for funds for its construction - "worse than a crime", and in this Timokhin is completely right. It would be better for his / planned / GEM to rework pr.11356 P / M (they are approximately equal in VI) and quickly saturate the fleet with inexpensive and functional units of a well-developed project. For the same Pacific Fleet, 6 units of frigates 11356 R / M (which the Kaliningrad Yantar built quickly and efficiently), at a price less than the Mercury, would obviously not be damaged ?!
  20. +5
    19 September 2019 13: 01
    And no matter how large-scale the reorganization of maritime aviation would be needed to provide such opportunities, it will have to be done.
    Retired people cry about it. :-)
    It is necessary to return to specialized schools for pilots and navigators of naval aviation.
    Krasnodar alone is simply not capable, neither in quantity nor in level.
    1. +2
      19 September 2019 14: 41
      Yes, it is also necessary.
    2. +3
      19 September 2019 15: 15
      And what were our flying schools for pilots and navigators of naval aviation after 1960?
      I wonder?
      1. +6
        19 September 2019 17: 21
        Orenburg, Chelyabinsk, Voroshilovgrad.
        I ended up on a PLA profile.
        For lack of often other graduates are sometimes dressed in black.
        Until 1978, before the transfer of MPA to Chelyaba, VVVAUSH issued two-thirds of navigators for the marine.
        1. +2
          19 September 2019 17: 50
          You wrote about specialized schools, naval aviation, and not about the faculty, which is why I asked a question.
          Now from Krasnodar lieutenants to Yeysk for retraining on the MA profile. I consider it more correct.
          1. +6
            19 September 2019 18: 56
            Why invent something in return for the tried and tested old?
            There is continuity, the instructors, the team where in the entire MA they knew about everyone. This is the elite. And not the production workers.
            MA is a close relationship with the fleet.
          2. +3
            19 September 2019 19: 50
            It has been discussed many times. I found it.

               Followed by the comments of the pilots Mi-14, Su-24MR and Tu-22M3. This is a doable task. However, to bring them "to mind" will need trained instructors and YEARS of flight work in the regiments in order to gain experience in piloting and combat use of weapons. All this is not as simple as it seems from above, and knowledgeable people will only shake their heads: haste is dangerous and useless. You need a SYSTEM, a scientific approach and great patience to properly prepare a reliable flight crew. I corresponded with a classmate, discussing the video of the rough landing and the subsequent disaster of the Tu-22m3. Reading his letter, I realized that over the years we have lost not only a lot of highly trained flight personnel and not only the SYSTEM, we have lost more. We have lost well-coordinated teams of combat units, regiments and squadrons. They are not created by order. They are created over the years, by generations of flight crews, from one to the next. I will quote a letter from a classmate. Hi Vitya !! I agree with you in everything ... from landing (hitting), to YES problems (maybe others also have them), but these are visible to me ... And as my friend said .. (he was our personnel officer in the regiment) - if we were to return to the ranks now ... we would hardly be able to serve in these conditions ... They fly a lot, yes, 40 hours a month flying. But for the rest ... neither the team .. nor the normal relations in our concept ... Everything is only on the money, and on the fact that, in case of any mistake, lay next to the walking one. These are the unhappy observations from the military men living in the town among the acting. Well, in the original source it is here. http://forums.airbase.ru/2018/11/t89793_10--my-posylaem-ikh-domoj-k-lyubimym-ledi.html
            1. +1
              19 September 2019 20: 00
              You're not right..
              1. +4
                19 September 2019 21: 24
                Read coma Sokerin, com regiments, ns regiments.
                Is everyone wrong?
                Well and goodies :-)
                He wants to produce Shoigu in the year 1200 with the capabilities of Krasnodar 180. Half of which lowers the pax to carry in a couple of years.
                1. +2
                  19 September 2019 21: 32
                  I do not read, but I know ...
                  Naturally, not everyone is wrong.
                  Not only do my students fly, but my classmates still fly ..
                  And slang about Pax, well, ugly, why?
                  And those who went to the IA in Krasnodar (after L 39 to Yak 130) do not think about the Pax (in your opinion).
                  Can you imagine how the selection for specialties in Krasnodar is going on now?
                  1. +2
                    19 September 2019 22: 57
                    Pax is a slang of citizens.
                    I can not imagine.
                    I’m about the lack of summer staff and their departure to fly to the citizens. If only it were healthy. mentioned the 1980 release of Vova Moshchenko after Tu22 in Mongohto, at 55 he recovered, flies in the Force in Magadan :-)
                2. +1
                  19 September 2019 21: 42
                  Forgot BVVAUL
                  From there, in 1980, almost everyone was raked in MA.
                  I personally know three, one in Chkalovsk on the Su-24, the second on the Yak-38 in Severomorsk, the third on the Tu-22 in Mongohto.
                  1. +2
                    19 September 2019 21: 46
                    Your place of residence at the moment, tell me pzhl?
                    1. +2
                      19 September 2019 22: 50
                      Kiev.
                      I gave a link to the stories earlier.
                      http://samlib.ru/s/semenow_aleksandr_sergeewich333/
                      On the first article of Alexander. True, the nickname was different :-)
  21. -2
    19 September 2019 13: 53
    Quote: Serg65
    new gateways were made taking into account aircraft carrier wiring

    The New Panamax gauge allows Nimitz-class aircraft carriers to use the Panama Canal, passing under the Bridge of the Americas at low tide.
  22. +1
    19 September 2019 14: 13
    Regular fantasies of Comrade Timokhin, who have nothing to do with reality.
    However, nothing new.
    1. 0
      19 September 2019 14: 51
      But the "first-class ship" of project 20386 has a lot with reality, yeah.
      So keep on meditating.
  23. +4
    19 September 2019 15: 32
    Well, the fleets are different, they are isolated, the conditions are different, and the ships need different, finally someone understood. Already not bad. You look, someone will understand why 20380 go to the Baltic Fleet and Pacific Fleet, and 20386 go to the Northern Fleet. wink
    The transfer between the Black Sea Fleet, Baltic Fleet, Northern Fleet and the Caspian is in principle possible for ships of rank 3-4. That is, RTOs, minesweepers, various boats. That is, having a large number of MRK, missile boats and minesweepers, we can group them where we need to. The only fully autonomous TVD-TOF. As the Russo-Japanese War showed, the idea of ​​transferring reinforcements from other fleets is practically not working. Although the opportunity to go through the NSR for the ships of the SF and break through the Bering Strait is. But for this it is necessary to significantly increase the means of coastal troops, air defense and aviation in Chukotka and Kamchatka. The presence of atomic icebreakers will make it possible to conduct part of the Northern Fleet in difficult ice conditions, and covering the Bering Strait with 400, s500, aviation, etc. will minimize losses. request
    As for operational squadrons, the idea is dubious in my opinion. Too expensive to start. And secondly - it's stupid suicide bombers. The same Mediterranean squadron will be completely cut off by the straits and locked for maneuver, surrounded by superior NATO forces. Moreover, it will not only be humiliated by enemy fleets, but aviation from the airfields of Turkey, Italy, France, Spain and so on. Our base in Tartus is not for the war against NATO, but for local operations and logistics. In the case of mixing with NATO, it is impossible to protect it in principle.
    In Southeast Asia, we have no bases, no goals, and no meaning.
    But as for the maneuver by long-range aviation and su30cm with onyx, the idea is correct. So su30cm and practice regularly firing PKR. The regiments of naval aviation on them and rearm. The Hindus did not think of the installation of the Bramos themselves - this was implied. request Pass Tu22m3 to naval aviation? So we do not have enough to have both the VKS and her. And why limit pilots to sharpening for one task? And if you need to work out again in Syria, or where else? You can of course, but I'm not sure that this will seriously strengthen something.
    But in any case, the tu22m3 regiments, especially when they will be with daggers, are something that we can really relocate to the desired TVD. hi
    1. 0
      19 September 2019 19: 48
      The same Mediterranean squadron will be completely cut off by the straits and locked for maneuver, surrounded by superior NATO forces.


      Is that all of NATO right? And what if it is with Zaruba Japan on the Kuril Islands? Not everything comes down to NATO, to say the least.
      1. +2
        19 September 2019 21: 34
        Pulled out.
        Immediately in the event of a "cut", they will increase the grouping of theaters of operations in Europe, exercises, and border violations.
        I remember during the exercises in 2013 in July, they transferred aircraft and troops to Sakhalin, so the merchants refused to refuel them without prepayment. Three days to fly not
        РјРѕРіР »Ryo
        At that moment I was resting with a friend on vacation in Kirillovka. And he was very amused by his negotiations on the mobile; he tried to solve all this :-) From Ukraine.
        .
        1. +2
          19 September 2019 22: 30
          Now Gazpromneft fills according to the "sale in a tank" scheme, that is, they are obliged to fill in as much as the VKS will ask for, the fact of the sale is the injection of fuel into the plane, payment later.

          They did it.

          For the rest, this is understandable, but it is one thing to crush, another thing to fight, from a hypothetical inter-war with Japan, a blow from Poland should not be, so to speak. They will spoil the little things and try to scare them.
          1. +2
            20 September 2019 11: 44
            Maybe they did.
            There were problems with Tu from Ukrainka.
            One fell, the engines stood up, the second was able to start.
            They wrote substandard TS-1.
      2. +3
        21 September 2019 16: 04
        If there is a cut with Japan in the Kuril Islands, then there is no desire to repeat Tsushima. It is impossible to pass from the south to the Pacific Fleet otherwise than by Japan. And even if in some miraculous way such a squadron teleports past japs, then its practical value will be small. Increasing aviation at Far East airfields and deploying medium-range missiles and air defense systems in the region is much more efficient. Japan shoots the same caliber from Primorye calmly. Take uksk with mrk, put on the chassis of Iskander and you can safely beat on any point of the islands, being undercover. Launch x101 from strategists even over Siberia and japas will not be able to get carriers. request
        The bulk of the population of Japan is concentrated on 3 islands. The population density is high. Modern Asian hive cities are wheeled and critically dependent on infrastructure. Hit the power plants, water canal, warehouses with grub and transport infrastructure, and hell will begin in the city. Zapri fishing vessels in ports threatened with drowning and starvation will begin. request
        Japan is actually extremely vulnerable to us. Plus she has problems with China. Anyway, the Japanese flag in Southeast Asia completely replaces the local swastika. Japov is hated by everyone. About the Nazis only watched a movie. request
  24. 0
    19 September 2019 15: 36
    Why a fleet? One missile strike, even non-nuclear, against Tokyo.
  25. -6
    19 September 2019 16: 44
    Quote: LeonidL
    similar to calls in the style of Navalny, Sable, Sobchak and Co. It seems that there could not have been without Soros and his school. This is reminiscent of a call to overthrow the government and is punishable as a criminal offense.

    fool
    actually Lenya G SAM wrote about himself exhaustively (what kind of SPECIALTY is he)
  26. +5
    19 September 2019 17: 25
    Admit who released the mine from the mental hospital? He already fucked up the whole branch.
    1. -5
      19 September 2019 17: 51
      Quote: Saul_Rhen
      Admit it

      YOU apparently still haven’t put out your sirloin (torn a year ago on the BMP) still not Shmogli
      laughing
      1. +5
        19 September 2019 18: 17
        This is when you took a quote from your "article" for my own thought and began to refute and mock? Or when they began to write dozens of coprofile copy-paste? Or when you could not answer a single question? Stop embarrassing yourself and return yourself to an adequate state. Timokhin and his opponents are interesting to read, although there are excesses, and you do your best to support the role of the mentally ill.
        1. -7
          19 September 2019 18: 22
          Quote: Saul_Rhen
          Or when you could not answer a single question?

          Nothing so YOU ​​are sausage laughing
          however, with proofs for allegedly "this" YOU will manage as usual laughing
          Quote: Saul_Rhen
          by all means support the role of the mentally ill.

          bunny, I remember very well that the first one said "city crazy" - it was the RAT, who has been sitting on the topic of naval underwater weapons (and their financing) since 2005. (in 2012 she "crawled into the shadows", but still "sits on the subject")
          for you and the RAT are not able to answer ANYTHING on BEING and FACTS, and the only thing you have is a heart-rending screech and a lie
          1. +9
            19 September 2019 18: 25
            Do you have a tantrum? In order for those around you to stop thinking of you as an idiot and to begin to take them seriously, you need to stop behaving in a manner consistent with this image. You have already been kicked out with pissed rags from everywhere, but the ambition has not diminished.
            1. -5
              19 September 2019 18: 31
              Quote: Saul_Rhen
              Do you have a tantrum?

              hysterics at YOU (and YOU blazed so that they kicked YOU under ... they even kicked out from the "humane" bmpd)
              Quote: Saul_Rhen
              You need to stop behaving accordingly

              you will not wait
              RATS type M.Fire and YOU, Monsieur Saul_Rhen crushed, crush and will crush
              1. +9
                19 September 2019 18: 39
                hysterics at YOU (and YOU blazed so that they kicked YOU under ... they even kicked out from the "humane" bmpd)

                And again you pass fantasy as reality. "I congratulate you, citizen of the lie"
                1. -6
                  19 September 2019 18: 45
                  Quote: Saul_Rhen
                  And again you give out fantasies for reality

                  YOU stumble in the proof?
                  1. +6
                    19 September 2019 19: 00
                    You screw up again.
    2. +4
      19 September 2019 18: 00
      Yes, and here I think .... why did the mine physicist appear here again? It is on the day of the publication of this article by Timokhin? Co-authorship?
      Complete rudeness ..... In the comments from Klimov to the forum users. Timokhin is still holding on, and explains in normal language.
      1. -6
        19 September 2019 18: 25
        Quote: NN52
        Complete rudeness ..... In the comments from Klimov to the forum users.

        Do not lie
        I have a normal attitude and communication on the forum with normal forum users
        "flogging" goes on quite specific persons (and YOU personally received yours from me in due time)
        1. +7
          19 September 2019 19: 54
          Klimov!
          I'm from you ???? You didn’t mix anything up?
          You, release 98, and on demobilization in 2009 ?????? Rzhu ....
    3. The comment was deleted.
  27. +1
    19 September 2019 17: 37
    An interesting and in-depth analysis of the strategy of the Russian Navy. And, in my opinion (just IMHO) in the event of even a local war with NATO or the United States, which is the same thing, you will have to "jam the enemy with nuclear batons." As small, so maybe Big. And perhaps preemptive strikes am
  28. +3
    19 September 2019 21: 11
    I’m amazed at myself already I recognize the authors on the third sentence of the text .... comrade Timokhin, as always, everything was gone ... the analysis is all the same logical, but one-sided thanks for the article anyway it was interesting, Andrew really got better articles about the fleet. imposes ... what
  29. +4
    20 September 2019 01: 55
    Part two begins with the statement that "we need an adequate domestic theory of naval power, we need to adapt it to geography." That is, the modern theory of art is inadequate, since it is not aimed at achieving power, and is not adapted to geography. If the first statement is controversial a priori, since in modern conditions the concept of “the m-th power of Russia” is something desirable, but unattainable, then the second is simply ridiculous for those who studied at VM schools and academies in VM profile. And Russia really has access to both the seas and the oceans. But here is the fact that "... there are more merchant ships under national jurisdiction than the United States." hard to agree. What does “national jurisdiction” mean? In Soviet times, this was clearly defined - all merchant and fishing fleet vessels under construction were required to have mobilization capabilities in the project — places for art cellars, special equipment, cabinets, or foundations for art systems. According to conditional signals, the ships went to home ports where they received weapons, equipment and ammunition from containers, the entire command staff was trained and certified as fleet reserve officers. Moreover, at any moment, any vessel flying the Soviet flag, by conditional signal, had to comply with the requirements in the interests of the Navy. Recall at least the transfer of troops to Cuba. What do we have today? The mass of the fleet is formally Russian in private hands and goes under convenient flags. True in Russian jurisdiction, and so far it remains SovKomFlot and Rosatom. A good example of "jurisdiction" was the fact that the Syrian Express had to buy rusty Turkish cargo ships, and not involve the Russian merchant fleet. It is naive to hope for the patriotism of the gentlemen of the Russian capitalists.
    The fact that in modern conditions the passage through the straits of the Black and Baltic Seas is problematic has been known to everyone for a long time. This "news" is the "second freshness sturgeon." Link to the article that “... had the goal of focusing the attention of the public on something that the public for some reason forgot, replacing the process of thinking with the thoughtless eating of the informational“ feed ”that our“ propaganda machine ”, which is not always accurate in its wordings, palms it. There is a rude and humiliating reference to the civilian public and nothing more, for military people this article is nothing new and interesting. Those who wish can follow the link and make sure.
    This is followed by quite obvious reasoning about the complexity of the inter-naval maneuver. In principle, the message is correct, known to the command since the times of the USSR, in my past comments I laid emphasis on this - the fleet specialization is not claiming the title of discoverer, just expressing an opinion.
    “In the case of a local conflict, the fundamental question is that the maneuvering forces should be on time in the theater of operations in time, before the enemy establishes dominance at sea (and not as in the Russo-Japanese war).” - this is possible if it succeeds in teaching the ships to fly from the Black Sea Fleet to the TF or from the Northern Fleet to the TF. But the fact is that local conflicts of the Russian Federation are possible only with states bordering on the Russian Federation. If these are NATO countries, then the chances of the transfer of zero to the Baltic and the Black Sea. Unless of course he learns to predict the unpredictable in advance. If a local conflict has begun, the transfer is excluded; if it has not begun, it is either meaningless or the conflict itself can provoke. This statement of the author to put it mildly very controversial.
    “Unfortunately, we again see the formal approach taken by the drafters of a guidance document that is important from a doctrinal point of view. The effect of the fragmentation of our fleets on the organizational and staffing structure of the fleet as a type of aircraft is not mentioned. Meanwhile, the problem of maneuver is both important and partly solvable, but the composition of the Navy and its organization should be built with such a task in mind. ” - Everything should be formal, not romantic. The fleets are transferred into operational subordination to the command of the ground forces and no one will build the composition of the Navy and its organization following the example of the gop company Admiral Rozhdestvensky.
    Errors and commonplace truths, personal opinions of the author and his own conjectures, accusations of all the mortal sins of the leadership of the Fleet and Moscow Region, you get tired of disassembling because almost the entire article consists of them. Therefore, in conclusion, I will express my thoughts. The author lists the “enemies” and the list is impressive. The leadership of the Russian Federation is undoubtedly much better than Timokhin is aware of the challenges and dangers, but does not fall into hysteria and does not lose his head. I think that while Putin is in power in the Russian Federation, comrade Xi is not particularly worried about the future in China, as well as the sea battles so beloved by Timokhin are to be expected. Thank God. Possible troubles may arise with a change of leaders. Suppose that people come to power in Russia after Putin leaves as a result of the Maidan, bulk, Ksenia and others. Central authority is weakening, and all sorts of neighbors have chances to satisfy unfulfilled desires. For example, “Poland from Mozh to Mozh”, Ukraine to the Kuban ... the Baltic States to Novgorod and Pskov ... China to the Urals ... Then the collapse of the Russian Federation and local battles of local states are possible ... Another scenario is weakening as a result of the external and internal processes of the PRC and as a way out - displacement imputed Xi to someone more warlike, who will pull out old cards from the time of Mao from the chest of drawers. In this case, “pen tests” are also possible on the TF and most likely and most likely on the entire land border. Moreover, first the Central Asian republics will fall very quickly, which will extend the border even further. But even in this case, the main burden and intensity of hostilities will fall on the ground forces and aviation, air defense and missile defense. What will happen at sea, even with a quantitative superiority of the Chinese, is only secondary. By the way, the ambassador of Ukraine to Serbia blabbed about precisely such a development of history yesterday. You can certainly find this nonsense of a madman, a jester ... but often what jesters have in their tongues, rulers in their heads.
    1. -1
      20 September 2019 21: 41
      Maxim is banned, at his request I post the answer.
      Everything below is the answer.

      Part two begins with the statement that "we need an adequate domestic theory of naval power, we need to adapt it to geography." That is, the modern theory of art is inadequate, since it is not aimed at achieving power, and is not adapted to geography. If the first statement is controversial a priori, since in modern conditions the concept of “the m-th power of Russia” is something desirable, but unattainable, then the second is simply ridiculous for those who studied at VM schools and academies in VM profile.


      Some very simple questions are allegedly “accounting” for the geographical factor in the current Russian Navy:
      1. ALL bases of the Northern Fleet at a minimum distance from the border (and with a meager flight time of air attack weapons). The only base remote from the border of the Northern Fleet - Gremikha - was abandoned
      2. Taking into account the new anti-aircraft defense systems, the NSNF will be able to hide only under the ice, but it is extremely difficult to break through there (except for the White Sea), and the torpedo firing of the submarines of the Navy in these conditions was NEVER practiced at all.
      3. Ships in Baltiysk are in the zone of destruction of long-range modern ARTILLERY from the territory of Poland. Given this factor, what did large warships “forget” in the BF?
      4. The Sea of ​​​​Okhotsk as a supposedly “cleansed bastion”, exhaustively for Rear Admiral Dudko, the only submarine commander at the beginning of the 80s who turned out to be able to act off the coast of the United States in the same way as the Americans did with ours, moreover, on a boat noisier than the Americans .671RTM:

      favorable conditions for the search and tracking of our RPK SN in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk, and especially during the period of our planned military service. From the point of view of the General Staff, it was a protected area, because it seemed that it allowed deploying anti-aircraft defense forces in the shortest possible time, but from the point of view of the secrecy of the PKK SN from the detection by the boats of the enemy with more powerful energy, this is an open and very favorable area that allows for long and covert tracking of our ships over long distances.

      Our command and we, as we were taught and driven into the head, believed that the PKK CH was not vulnerable. In this mood, we entered combat service. A meeting with the PKK SN was already planned in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk. At first, with great distrust, but then more confidently, we worked out the recognition, classification and tracking of the boat, using only passive surveillance tools and using the features of the GAP RPK SN. ...
      We received unique tools, methods and techniques for tracking submarines in the natural environment. A unique tracking experience, completely new ways to verify the lack of tracking of our missile carriers, which, unfortunately, did not interest anyone, either because of their employment, either did not believe or did not want to recognize the low secrecy of the PKK SN in “protected” areas.

      And these are the FACTS - the alleged “accounting” of the “geographical factor” in the Russian Navy (the list is incomplete - you can continue).
      Will there be objections to Mr. Lenya?

      And Russia really has access to both the seas and the oceans. But the fact that "... we have more merchant ships under national jurisdiction than the United States." Is difficult to agree. What does “national jurisdiction” mean? In the days of the USSR, this was clearly defined - all merchant and fishing fleet vessels under construction were required to have mobilization capabilities inherent in the project ... What do we have today? The mass of the fleet is formally Russian in private hands and goes under convenient flags. True in Russian jurisdiction, and so far it remains SovKomFlot and Rosatom. A good example of "jurisdiction" was the fact that the Syrian Express had to buy rusty Turkish cargo ships, and not involve the Russian merchant fleet. It is naive to hope for the patriotism of the gentlemen of the Russian capitalists.


      If you smear the snot (as Mr. Lenya does) - yes, but the "gentlemen of the foreign capitalists" (and the Russians - in the pre-revolutionary times) were all fine with mod-training. IF YOU DO IT, and not “drive a bolt” - this is what LeonidL offers and advertises here.
      Only one example - now a mass series of fishing vessels under the “keels in exchange for quotas” program is being built at Russian shipyards. In the Russian Navy, did anyone even think about ensuring their mobilization use? The answer is obvious - "laziness rule."
      What can we say about “civilians” if the Navy completely overwhelmed the question of mobile training of the PSKR Bohr!
      Or will Mr. LeonidL declare that "naive to hope for the FSB patriotism"?
      So - Mr. LeonidL will have objections to these FACTS? Or does he have “as always” - tons of stupid flood and a squeal about “swamp”?

      “In the case of a local conflict, the fundamental question is that the maneuvering forces should be in time for the theater of operations in time, before the enemy establishes dominance at sea (and not as in the Russo-Japanese war).” - this is possible if you can teach ships to fly from BS to TF or from SF to TF.


      I will afflict Lenya LeonidL. His cheap flood has nothing to do with reality - what he disputes is expressly provided for respectively. documents of the Navy (including doctrinal documents - VGK). As they say - "read the guidance documents."

      But the fact is that local conflicts of the Russian Federation are possible only with states bordering on the Russian Federation. If these are NATO countries, then the chances of the transfer of zero to the Baltic and the Black Sea.


      Apparently such a NATO country as Poland Lenya LeonidL "did not go to school in geography." Moreover, Poland is intensely “pumped up” not only by tanks, but also by shock systems to destroy our facilities right up to Moscow and St. Petersburg.
      US and NATO? And they can easily “stand aside”. Just in case, let me remind you of a very scandalous episode (with far-reaching consequences) - Trump's direct refusal to confirm the "fidelity" of the "ritual" 5 article of the NATO Charter. And we should think hard about the logic of such a decision - and for this “bell” “hits us”.
      Given this factor, “suddenly it may turn out” to be a critical need for the deployment of an operational connection of the Northern Fleet to ... the Baltic Sea.

      Errors and commonplace truths, personal opinions of the author and his own conjectures, accusations of all the mortal sins of the leadership of the Fleet and Moscow Region, you get tired of disassembling because almost the entire article consists of them.


      But LenidL simply does NOT have a “parsing” - there is none as such. There is a FALSE, a flood, and screams that we have “everything is normal”, “no errors”, etc.
      At the same time, Lenya LeonidL was able to “reveal” even a number of mistakes by Timokhin (however, this did not interest him).
      In general, the "position" of Leni LeonidL (and its owners) is extremely simple

      while Mr. Putin is in power in the Russian Federation, Comrade X is particularly not worried about the future in the PRC, as well as the sea battles so beloved by Timokhin are to be expected.


      At the same time, “laziness and Co.” stubbornly fail to notice - both the critical problems of the combat readiness of the Russian Navy, and the fact that the authority of the Navy of the People’s Republic of China does not rest on the “personality of the Chairman of Xi,” but on the enormous work of him and the whole of China on the construction of the Navy (against which in our country, it’s just that the “bolt is clogged” to the requirements of the battle, but the “power-saw benches” on naval money simply “whistle”)

      ... Another scenario is the weakening as a result of the external and internal processes of the PRC and, as a way out, the displacement of the imputed Xi to someone more militant, who will draw old cards from the time of Mao from the chest of drawers. In this case, “pen tests” are also possible on the TF and most likely and most likely on the entire land border. Moreover, first the Central Asian republics will fall very quickly, which will extend the border even further. But even in this case, the main burden and intensity of hostilities will fall on the ground forces and aviation, air defense and missile defense.


      3 of the “closest” versions of the “local war” are Poland, Turkey, Japan ...
      yes, yes, of course, there will be a "first song" for the "hunters" ...
      But what will we do if in the same "Suvalki corridor" the "formally neutral" American tank division "stands up stupidly" (and with the latest technology, active defense systems, etc.)?

      The end. Maxim’s answer.
      I’ll add on my own that I still do not consider it possible to stoop to serious communication with LeonidLom, he stupidly does not deserve this, but Maxim has a different opinion, apparently.
      1. +3
        21 September 2019 03: 17
        Maxim refers to the book by Dudko.
        Already discussed. This is all from his words. This is a fragment, the reconnaissance and the Pacific Fleet reconnaissance patrol had other information. From open sources was at Veryuzhsky.
        Almost all reports for the BS required analysis -divide into two :-)
        The same Aporta-Atrins had already passed, and telegrams from Khursa surfaced, and all this turns out to be propaganda hype.
        However, it was also discussed.
        And about Leonidl :-) to answer if you do not agree. He is a guest at a discussion of your material., And pops up
        1. -1
          21 September 2019 16: 36
          Well, once Dudko "Ohio" caught it, it's a fact. Spun unnoticed in Juan de Fuca - a fact. I saw Seattle through the periscope - well, I won't argue here, but somewhere in the bins of the Navy there should be a photo, if so.

          In any case, of the highlighted comrades, this is the champion.

          Well, the fact that he was practicing secretive tracking, and not a frantic race with active packages, also says a lot.
          1. +2
            22 September 2019 00: 07
            All this we have long discussed in LiveJournal "Poseidon Encryption".
            You know my opinion on Dudko.
            1. -1
              22 September 2019 01: 24
              You yourself wrote that one of his contacts was confirmed. And he was burned when the SSBN gave way. That is, he could have destroyed the Ohio.

              However, I do not want to argue.
              1. +1
                22 September 2019 05: 16
                   And there is. In the conclusions of the report, out of five, one contact is confirmed, the second is doubtful, and three are not. The dispute was about whether he derailed Ohio's exit to BS, or it was in the training area. In the first case, the star of the Hero shone on him, in the second, thanks for the service. It turned out that the second option. That's all. Exchange of views on the page-> Encryption "Poseidon". https://shoehanger.livejournal.com/530973.html#comments
                1. 0
                  23 September 2019 11: 48
                  or update it in the combat training area. In the first case, the star of the Hero shone for him, in the second, thanks for the service. It turned out that the second option. That's all.


                  That does not pull on GSS, but in itself is very good.
                  1. +1
                    24 September 2019 01: 39
                    Again, this is from his words, from the book. And there was a chance, GSS was given then even for the transfer of boats to the Pacific Fleet.
  30. +3
    20 September 2019 02: 00
    An interesting article but there are objections:
    1) "OPESK - there will be only a smaller number of deployed formations, and their deployment only during the threatened period." which completely destroys the idea of ​​OPESK, as such, since with this approach, short-term stay in long-distance voyages will prevail in the requirements for the fleet, which in the "threatened period" will lead to the fact that the ships will simply not be ready. In addition, OPESK ships in peacetime provide essential assistance as systems for integrated control of the surface, air and ground situation, emergency rescue systems and communication systems with submarine units.
    The OPESK, in my humble opinion, should carry out military service precisely in the ocean right up to the rotation of crews without entering the base using transport convoys, and not be targeted at their ports.
    2) [/ quote] ships on conservation [/ quote] On the one hand, the idea seems attractive: we do not cut ships into needles but have some kind of reserve, but will not work. The crew masters a new ship in at least a year. Ships from conservation are not even new ships, it is a very difficult technique to master. What was refused during the conservation period, even the experienced crew will not immediately understand, but the crew thrown in a hurry from another ship and even more so.
    1. -1
      20 September 2019 11: 16
      OPESK - there will be only a smaller number of deployed formations, and their deployment only during a threatened period. "Which completely destroys the idea of ​​OPESK, as such, since with this approach, a short stay on a long voyage will prevail in the requirements for the fleet, which will lead to to the fact that the ships will simply not be ready.


      Why? In a month, a group of ships of constant readiness will move from the Black Sea Fleet to the South Pacific without any problems. Finger click wars do not begin.

      The OPESK, in my humble opinion, should carry out military service precisely in the ocean right up to the rotation of crews without entering the base using transport convoys, and not be targeted at their ports.


      If money allows, then yes.

      On the one hand, the idea seems attractive: we do not cut ships into needles, but we have some kind of reserve, but it will not work. The crew masters a new ship in at least a year.


      It's about those who served on this type of ship. In the USSR, they tried on cruisers, etc. 68, it turned out to put the ship into operation in less than a month, and it was even partially combat-ready after that. This is true, of course, if it was not looted and repaired before being put into conservation.
      1. +1
        20 September 2019 17: 07
        Why?
        Because only a real exit to the sea gives a guarantee of the combat effectiveness of the ship. And to create the appearance of combat readiness for the authorities without preserving this combat capability in the Navy, unfortunately, they began perfectly. In addition, the equipment must be designed for a long hike (the threatened period may after all be delayed), and in case of exit upon request this will not be 100% (saving money).
        In the USSR they tried
        In the USSR there were no reception centers for non-ferrous metals. In addition, your decision assumes the presence of a large number of ships of the same type, outdated so much that it is time for them to be mothballed, but at the same time quite combat-ready. As far as I know, the situation in the fleet is completely different: there is either a new one and very little, an old one and a little, or it’s time to scrap it for about 20 years, but there is no replacement. After all, they tried to preserve ships under Yeltsin. When they tried to restore from conservation it turned out that it was cheaper and faster to build a new ship.
        1. 0
          20 September 2019 21: 50
          Because only a real exit to the sea gives a guarantee of the combat effectiveness of the ship.


          Well, in general, ships go to sea all the time, they carry out the same course tasks, they keep track of foreigners near their shores.

          In addition, the equipment must be designed for a long hike (the threatened period may be delayed), and in case of exit at the request of this 100% will not be (saving money).


          And now it is realized, and in new ships it is not a problem to realize.

          besides, your decision assumes the presence of a large number of ships of the same type, outdated so much that it is time for them to conserve, but at the same time quite combat-ready. As far as I know, the situation in the fleet is completely different


          Now yes. But here we are three in theory ...
          1. +1
            20 September 2019 22: 57
            Well, in general, ships go to sea all the time

            You practically do not confuse your readiness to "go out to sea" in line of sight from your base and readiness to go out to sea on a circumnavigation.
            And now it is realized, and in new ships it is not a problem to realize.
            Now ships suitable (and even limited) for OPESK in the same southern part of the Pacific Ocean in my opinion 2 pieces: Peter the Great and Nakhimov.
            OPESK ships are in fact ships of a very marine zone and should be designed from the conditions of autonomy practically in the field of military service. Otherwise, we get the same problems that led to Tsushima.
            Create is not a problem, the problem is to issue the correct TK.
            But the three of us are for theory
            The tree of life must not be forgotten.
            And then excerpts are read here and something will appear again.
            1. 0
              20 September 2019 23: 06
              Now ships suitable (and even limited) for OPESK in the same southern part of the Pacific Ocean in my opinion 2 pieces: Peter the Great and Nakhimov.


              In fact, even corvettes from the Baltic ran to the Red Sea, and quite successfully, Yaroslav the Wise performed tasks in the Caribbean Sea, any BOD, destroyer or cruiser - a priori a ship of the oceanic zone. "Ladny" was catching a hijacked dry cargo ship in the ocean zone, etc.
              1. +1
                20 September 2019 23: 20
                Timokhin, before Tsushima the ships of the Republic of Ingushetia also quite regularly and successfully ran around the world. Only now when it was necessary to fight, coal and shells were few.
                1. 0
                  21 September 2019 19: 18
                  They ran after. And Tsushima is precisely the result of a belated maneuver. At a wrong time.
                  1. 0
                    23 September 2019 02: 07
                    [quote] They ran after that. [/ quote The fact of the ship’s ability to be in the far sea zone does not make it suitable for a base in the far sea zone under the limitations that are imposed on our fleet by modern conditions.
                    That is why, in order to select the types of ships suitable for autonomy to maintain q in the far sea zone, it should be clear the need for those who are constantly in their positions in combat service on the far shores of the OPESK. With the appropriate choice of power plants in particular.
                    1. 0
                      23 September 2019 11: 47
                      Nuclear power plants are not a panacea and have their drawbacks - the price, for example.
                      1. 0
                        24 September 2019 15: 05
                        has its drawbacks - the price

                        It is precisely because of this "argument" that it is necessary to put in the concept of combat service in a given area of ​​the world ocean.
                        Otherwise, there will certainly be a "cheapening", as with the "Kuznetsov", which will lead to the fact that the ship will not be able to fulfill the originally assigned role (in the case of Kuznetsov, the air cover of the "Orlanov" spacecraft in the ocean).
    2. 0
      20 September 2019 17: 27
      Remember the battleships of the Second World War in the USA, their conservation and commissioning already with missile weapons in addition to the main caliber.
      1. +2
        20 September 2019 18: 42
        You do not confuse the conservation and subsequent modernization of mothballed ships, and accelerated mothballing in a military conflict (with the transfer of crew and others). In the first case, you have time (and resources) to restore / upgrade the ship + train the crew. In the second case, this time is not.
        1. +1
          20 September 2019 21: 46
          Yes, I mean that we immediately sold scrap metal or with a weak-minded Alconaut at the price of foreign cars of premium class. A weapon must be stored. It would be easier now to modernize, to build a new one.
          1. +1
            20 September 2019 22: 58
            A weapon must be stored. It would be easier now to modernize, to build a new one.
            Here you are right, but what is sawn is sawn :(
  31. 0
    20 September 2019 06: 26
    Whether we like it or not, the OPESK is an insurmountable necessity, taking into account our geographical location. We will not have time to maneuver after the war begins, but we can have deployed forces in the ocean in advance that can arrive at a potential point of conflict in a matter of days.

    I believe in case of war with Japan, it’s not necessary to build OPESKs, but landing ships and sewing lead pants for the marines, because within minutes, Japan will become radiant like the Sun on its flag. laughing
    1. +1
      20 September 2019 11: 12
      Well, how much nonsense can you repeat?
      1. 0
        20 September 2019 18: 19
        Well, how much nonsense can you repeat?

        To write articles based on the strategies of the beginning of the past and the century before last is of course the ability to write. Forgot to add about the nuances of attack and defense in collisions with red uniforms in tight ranks and the range of 16 pound guns. hi
        1. -1
          20 September 2019 21: 53
          Operational squadrons - the end of the twentieth century. Already the Internet was, albeit only in the United States.

          A maneuver by aviation - the same years.

          And you read the Military Doctrine of the Russian Federation. Well written about your nuclear fantasies
  32. 0
    20 September 2019 06: 42
    Not in all agree with the author, but a plus. The topic is interesting and necessary.
    1. 0
      21 September 2019 12: 05
      I also like the articles of A. Timokhin, and here's why:
      1) He definitely has a gift, to raise interesting topics and argue his position, in their coverage (I do not see its imposition as the only correct one). This is evidenced by the subsequent "explosion of discussions" on the forum. And that's not bad.
      2) He is open enough for discussion, and constructive in the dialogue, and not categorically aggressive in response (like Klimov), and rarely breaks down into outright rudeness to the opponent. This, it seems to me, is also a plus.
  33. 0
    20 September 2019 07: 35
    An interesting article, but I consider a lot of unnecessary things that lead away from the essence of the need for the country's armed forces. Tobish. Always and everywhere, the armed forces have been preparing for the country's tasks, namely, defense or attack, incl. attack as defense, attack for preemption, etc. all kinds of combinations. There is no need to harbor illusions that the Russian Federation is purely defensive and the whole country is "good". Dobrichkov are nowhere to be found, and dobrichs are weak links of evolution.
    So England or Japan or the United States is unconditionally for all its external interests, its fleet is the primary weapon and, so to speak, for the quick-witted - a "tool of labor." But in the Russian Federation everything is not so, in the Russian Federation there is no brilliant isolation and therefore the survival of the Russian Federation was built not at the expense of the seas and oceans, but primarily by the army. Where to compete with maritime countries, at the same time without weakening the ground forces is impossible.

    So here. The Russian Federation does not and will not compete in the power of fleets with naval powers, but it can compensate for the weakness of the fleets by the dual-purpose ground forces. For example, an armada of thousands of amphibious naval tanks and armored personnel carriers.
    I will explain. In the Second World War, the Japanese had a floating tank, Ka-Mi, which had very good seaworthiness due to the attached pantons. Today, the same essence of pantons adapted for modern tanks can level their fleets by creating a very significant threat to the shores of countries such as Japan and even the United States (at least in the Berengov Strait area). Since even powerful fleets concentrated to protect individual coastlines are just targets from the land mainland forces of Russia. It is on such a technique that we must emphasize.
  34. +2
    20 September 2019 11: 05
    In my opinion, one should proceed from the real situation. That is, the fleets are cut off from each other, maneuver is impossible, there are not enough ships and people. And the task is - at least to protect the coast, and the maximum - to dominate the puddle, not claiming the ocean. And rely only on your own strengths, only those that are in this puddle, there is nowhere to wait for help. And here it seems optimal to build a bunch of coastal airfields to cover the entire puddle with aviation. Or completely shut off coastal land missile systems, the range of missiles allows. That is, ships are not needed.
  35. 0
    20 September 2019 11: 47
    I see the most rational approach of China. That is, in strategic areas, if possible, at a distance of operational reach, develop on-call monitoring-warning-attack bases on small islands (creating those if they are absent), and use the surface fleet as a second wave weapon.

    The islands do not rust.
    1. 0
      20 September 2019 12: 06
      How does this relate to us, with our geography?
  36. +1
    20 September 2019 12: 37
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    How does this relate to us, with our geography?

    Well, for example, something similar is being realized now on the Kuril ridge ... The Kuril ridge is actually an unsinkable squadron in the ocean. Yes, it’s static, but it’s easier to upgrade equipment on earth than on technology.
    It not only cuts off the Sea of ​​Okhotsk with "territorial waters", but also pushes the border of the radius of destruction of potential enemy missiles from the continental part of the Russian Federation.
    1. +1
      20 September 2019 15: 00
      The Kuril ridge is a line that, without a well-thought-out defense system, will be captured faster than we can figure out where to shoot. And it will turn into an enemy bridgehead and a wall on our way
      1. +3
        20 September 2019 17: 18
          Holy people. These are small Kuril Islands on the map. It is fashionable to cut three hours along the IL-38, but they do not end there. It is easy to find the Okhotsk pilotage on the net. Look at the waves, depths, ice boundaries, hydrological section. In the era of the power of the USSR, there was always one 877, this is out of five. One 671 rtm, one SSBN, sometimes inside 675 or 670. Two flights to BS per week Tu-142, one Il-38, one Be-12. Twice a year exercises, KVF and Sakh fl. IPL was detected, and often. There were two of them all the time. Now the Americans, without straining, can keep four there with their KOH. The Japanese DPLs have been connected since last year. It was impossible to seal the Kuril Islands then, but now :-) What kind of milestone are we talking about? I already wrote that people do not realize the size and insignificance of the search forces. Aviation in the Kuril Islands is completely dependent on the weather, for weeks there is such a wind that you can't take off. And the snow? The excitement of the sea, PLO ice planes smoke. By the way, the "Window" was skidding there. "Echo" and did not work there, shallow depths.
        1. 0
          20 September 2019 21: 54
          The fact that the Kuril Islands is not a barrier for which you can sit out. It is rather a potential front.
          1. +2
            21 September 2019 03: 31
            I am more impressed with the comparison with the PCB, as at the border.
            The front has an actual line filled with strength. And this is a piece of the sea with rocks and disgusting weather conditions.
            You do not call, for example, the Laptev Sea the front?
            1. -1
              21 September 2019 16: 38
              I wrote POTENTIALLY)

              If something happens, it will be necessary to deploy a large group there, and quickly. Otherwise, we will be planted on this fence later.
              1. +1
                22 September 2019 11: 02
                  What factions? At whose expense? Will they be formed in Primorye? How to deliver? Through the Tatar Strait? Organize a convoy? How to provide? Nobody will defend the Kuril Islands, who needs these rocks. There are more important goals for which strength will come in handy. Cities with population, industrial facilities, warehouses and state reserves. The Kuril Islands are blocking everything. Well stretched out on fish until frost. Everything is imported there. ...
                1. 0
                  22 September 2019 14: 10
                  In Russia, that there are few infantry and air defense systems? They threw it like they did in WWII - on everything that keeps on water. Do you know what shocked me the most in the Kerch-Feodosia operation? The fact that the landing was planted even from dredgers. Everything went into motion.

                  If only the submarines were not allowed there.

                  But the Americans or whoever will be there will immediately throw anti-aircraft missile units with the Patriots, radio interception stations, helicopters, radar stations, the Air Force base on Matua are deployed, if anything happens, in general.
                  1. +1
                    22 September 2019 15: 29
                      Such "actions" are carried out according to an agreed plan. If they do not blaze in several places (which I doubt, they have a lot of strength), they will pull. Concentration in the west, relocation of forces to Ukraine and Georgia, invasion of the Taliban from the south. But you never know what. There are no allies. And no one will fit. Lukashenko, Assad, Maduro? They will also be in trouble. The center will fight for itself, keep Moscow, St. Petersburg and some millionaires. Personally, my opinion, the environment will merge you know who. Everyone wants to live, but they want to live well. ...
        2. 0
          23 September 2019 09: 46
          Undoubtedly, I am poorly familiar with the staffing of the fleet in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk (as well as with the weather nuances of the region), but letting the enemy's fleet into its water area, as you are talking about, is even less useful from the "frozen fleet" proposed by the author. He will be shot while still at the quay walls, while the crew is desperately being transferred to him.

          And the thought "about the Kurils" suggests move off the detection zone of attacking means. And if detection of such problems (and there is no possibility of solving this problem), then it makes sense, in principle, to produce dead iron.
          1. +1
            24 September 2019 11: 18
            As an example, I couldn’t close in the 80s, it’s unlikely to work out now.
            Yes, there is no zone there, at the beginning of the DB "they will align the front line" and close what is important.
            As an example, they left Kiev in 1941, extended their time, lost the city and got a boiler.
  37. -1
    20 September 2019 13: 37
    There are a lot of correct ideas in the article, but practically not realized for decades, because it is based on the experience of the USSR, which had more ships than the USA.
    All we can now is deaf defense, focusing on coastal systems with anti-ship missiles, coastal aviation and coastal air defense. Shooting all cash Gauges on targets on land, without going to sea. Then, perhaps, the suicidal use of individual ships for target designation. But most likely no one will send the fleet to the sea, except for submarines.
    To change the situation, decades of persistent ship building are needed.
    But even on land, things are such that a non-nuclear war with NATO is a utopia. In any case, either the losing side will use tactical nuclear weapons, or the winning one, but faced with unacceptable losses and prolongation of the war.
    Then a retaliatory strike, and then like a snowball, right up to the exchange of global nuclear strikes.
    Thus, at sea, in the event of a major war, we need only submarines with ICBMs and the submarines protecting them.
    But the likelihood of a major war is very low - everyone wants to live.
    Another thing is local wars. They are not getting smaller and the fleet needs to be built precisely as a mechanism for projecting forces in local wars. And what better projects power? Aircraft carriers!
    For local wars, not many aircraft carriers are needed, as the American experience shows, 2 AUG is already a force capable of changing the course of a local conflict. And a force capable of preventing conflict is one fact of its presence.
    But having built 2-4 aircraft carriers with an escort, like the core of the fleet, you can already think about using the fleet in big wars. But this is 20 years later, at best.
    The most dangerous, to date, is the Pacific direction. Conflict with Japan is most likely and it is the Pacific Fleet that needs to be strengthened in the first place. even to the detriment of other fleets. We cannot spray forces now.
    1. +1
      21 September 2019 00: 05
      Quote: Vadmir
      Thus, at sea, in the event of a major war, we need only submarines with ICBMs and the submarines protecting them.

      Not needed! They were relevant in times of short-range ICBMs and therefore there was a need to go to the ocean in order to reach enemy targets. Now rockets get anywhere in the world from anywhere in our country. There is no sense in these archaic expensive tools .. It is much simpler and cheaper to build a large series of land-based ICBMs, both mobile and stationary , placing them on our vast territory with an air defense complex ... Destroying them will be an order of magnitude more difficult than a dozen SSBNs. But multipurpose submarines need to be built at least so that the rifle on the PLO is spent, and not build up the shock capabilities of the aircraft. About AUG, do not forget to pay back even for those printing the United States money. One hell is the ground forces doing all the work, and with the arrival of hypersound all surface components can be discarded .. Space, aviation, rocket science are the only development options, the rest is ineffective ..
      1. +3
        21 September 2019 07: 26
        In addition, land-based MBRs are always on alert, unlike the SSBN.
      2. 0
        21 September 2019 13: 28
        It is much simpler and cheaper to build a large series of land-based ICBMs, both mobile and stationary, to place them on our vast territory by covering them with an air defense system
        Yes, it’s much easier and cheaper, but they can be seen from space and it’s difficult to miss them. But the air defense does not know how to shoot down ballistic warheads, here we need a missile defense system and this is expensive.
        Destroy them will be an order of magnitude more difficult than a dozen SSBNs
        Those that are near the wall are much easier to destroy, but a boat located in the sea, at a depth, is the most terrible weapon.
        1. The comment was deleted.
      3. 0
        21 September 2019 13: 41
        About AUG, do not forget that they pay for themselves, even for those printing US money, one hell all the work is done by the ground forces
        Only one trifle, the ground-based air force needs airfields, and the AUG, by the very fact of its presence, is capable of influencing world politics and the Americans have demonstrated this many times in practice.
        and with the advent of hypersound the entire surface component can be discarded.
        AUG is not for a big war with the USA it is an instrument of geopolitics. But on the other hand, what are the ships for the war with the United States? Submarines only. But submarines are practically incapable of projecting force, they are for a big war, not for local ones. Do you really believe in the possibility of a nuclear-free war with the United States?
        And in the nuclear?
        Focusing on submarines means leaving geopolitics and not claiming to be a great power.
      4. 0
        21 September 2019 13: 44
        But multipurpose submarines need to be built
        I agree, but not only them, the fleet must be balanced.
      5. 0
        21 September 2019 13: 45
        Space, aviation, rocket science is the only development option, the rest is inefficient.
        The outcome of the war, in any case, is decided on earth.
        1. +1
          21 September 2019 15: 33
          Quote: Vadmir
          Those that are near the wall are much easier to destroy, but a boat located in the sea, at a depth, is the most terrible weapon.

          And in order for them to go to sea and not be sunk during the hour X, a cover is needed which, at a cost, will come out of the AUG
          Quote: Vadmir
          but they can be seen from space and it is difficult to miss them

          How do you imagine that? Let's say the mines are yes, but the mobile complexes? Anyway, they all figured out and delivered a strike .. And like, nobody will notice until the missiles reach the target? And did you know anything about the oncoming strike? In this case, the mines will just shoot back and have time, and the mobile complexes will escape from the impact, they were counting on it ..
          Quote: Vadmir
          Only one trifle, the ground-based air force needs airfields, and the AUG, by the very fact of its presence, is capable of influencing world politics and the Americans have demonstrated this many times in practice.

          What? The US has 800 bases around the world and this is their main club, the AUG is a relic of the Second World War and they use them because of the enormous lobby of the Navy in the country stupidly because there are! Yes, and they mainly affect the dollar because EVERYBODY keeps their money from them, and who does not keep (Kim, Iran) then they do not care about the USA and their AUG. Regarding the impossibility of nuclear submarines to influence something, think about it, but what difference does it make if something is destroyed by missiles from AUG aircraft or cruise missiles from nuclear submarines? At a cost, any rocket / bomb launched from an airplane taking off from an aircraft carrier starts at $ 7.5 million (taking all costs into account), so there’s another question: what is more profitable than nailing with a nuclear submarine or aviation with an AUG ..
          Quote: Vadmir
          But on the other hand, what are the ships for the war with the United States?

          NO! The fleet is not for global wars, it is for local and no more, in the case of a global 40-60 minutes of firefight and hello the stone age ... Therefore, space, aviation, missiles (so that there is no temptation at the gate), but for the remnants of the fleet, multipurpose nuclear submarines, frigates for representative and convoy operations, high-speed troop transports of the "Captain Smirnov" type, and all kinds of useful little things like minesweepers, supply vessels, etc.
          Quote: Vadmir
          . Do you really believe in the possibility of a nuclear-free war with the United States?
          And in the nuclear?

          I believe that in the near future they will try to take us very harshly for "weak" by forcing at least the use of TNW .. And it is after this that the fate of the country will be decided. We will answer firmly turn on the back and try to agree, postponing the plans of conquest for a certain period of time .. We will chew snot and then EAT! So the choice is obvious and clear, by the way, all these types of recent protests are just one of the building blocks for this scenario.
  38. +1
    20 September 2019 15: 09
    Yes, a really relevant article. In our conditions, it is necessary to form a naval group on each fleet and set corresponding tasks for it. The inter-theater maneuver in the threatened period, I think, is unrealistic. The most difficult situation in the Pacific theater. Measures - to restore shipbuilding and ship repair plants in the Far East as soon as possible. Initially, orient the naval group of Pacific Fleet to protect its coast and patrol the RPK SN, and build the remaining tasks based on the replenishment of the naval forces of the Pacific Fleet. Maritime aviation - yes it is needed. The Northern Fleet has something similar, just closer repair bases. The Baltic and Black Sea Fleet are now just auxiliary fleets. Well here is my amateurish opinion.
    PS We are not yet up to aircraft carrier idiocy ...
    1. +1
      20 September 2019 17: 19
      Initially orient the naval group of the Pacific Fleet towards protecting its coast
      This is a general, non-specific phrase. How, by what forces and, most importantly, against which enemy? Protecting the coast from landing? Who and for what purpose can land a landing on the coast of a nuclear power with a millionth army? China has a land border with us. he does not need it. The USA, at such a distance and isolation of this theater, is nonsense. And in Europe they have a bunch of allies with a land border.
      Japanese landing on the islands? How can our fleet, in its current state, prevent the landing of the Japanese without the use of tactical nuclear weapons?
      In the event of a major war with the United States and its allies, our fleet simply does not have tasks that it could fulfill.
      The only opportunity is for submarines that have previously entered the sea. Our fleet has the task of providing access to the sea of ​​the SSBN and other boats, but the fleet can perform this task only in the pre-war period. After the outbreak of war, this task is impossible.
      Do you really believe in the possibility of a third world war?
      We are not yet up to aircraft carrier idiocy ...
      Idiocy is to invest a lot of money in the construction of ships that are unable to resist potential opponents in the conditions of a big war or in the context of local conflicts to really project power. We will not be able to solve the first problem for another 20-30 years, because too many ships are needed. The second, local problem can be solved in 15 years.
      1. 0
        21 September 2019 10: 27
        About the protection of the coast (maybe he wrote it incorrectly) - the protection of the near sea zone, the defense of naval bases, the protection of navigation, and anti-landing actions. The enemy is known to us. You wrote about the current state of the fleet absolutely correctly. The third world war - I don’t know, not a prophet, but I need to prepare for a big war. A full-fledged carrier group (at least one or two) with a basing system, support, security forces, trained air wing will be created in the best case in 30-40 years. Therefore, for now, we are limited to the forces of the near sea zone, which we can build in sufficient numbers in 20 years.
        1. 0
          21 September 2019 12: 36
          Quote: mik193
          Therefore, for now, we are limited to the forces of the near sea zone, which we can build in sufficient numbers in 20 years.
          But it depends on how to squander the defense budget ?! If the Navy continues to upset and order 20380, and 20386 and build these, I would say they are not directly capable of providing their main functions, namely, providing PLO in BMZ, corvettes (in terms of the composition of their weapons, at their fabulous price), yes even with a construction time of 5 years (on average), then 20 years is not enough ?! And if instead of them, it orders a much more rationally balanced composition of its weapons (to ensure the same functions) PLO corvettes 11661-K (on the same spent power plant, namely DDA-12000, and with a full-fledged GAS), which for Vietnamese customers Zelenodolsk builds, on average for 3 years, a unit !!! Yes, and such a ship will cost the Navy 5 billion less (per unit), then these are completely different terms of construction and filling of the fleet, don't you think ?! Also, in my opinion, it makes sense to consider the possibility of entering the power plant planned for 20386, under the well-developed project 11356 R / M, and if it "sings and takes root" there, then most likely it will be a much more logical and cheap way, for a quick filling the fleet, light and well-proven "Petrel", which as escort escort ships and in the DMZ are able to serve, and be excellent units for filling ship orders in the formation of the same OPESK, together with fr. 22350 and BOD ?! And this will surely be possible for a price of less than 20386 (per unit) with better seaworthiness ?! And they were built (11356) by the Kaliningrad "Yantar", not for 5-7 years, but on average 3-3,5 years. As they say - feel the difference !!
          1. 0
            28 September 2019 09: 44
            Your words to God’s ears ... Unfortunately, our super-wise leadership will do everything again through a well-known place ...
  39. +1
    20 September 2019 17: 16
    I think that with the current development of rocket technology, covering the fleets will be very effective and the aggressor most likely has teeth, which naturally does not cancel the aspects that are set forth in this magnificent article. By the way, the action of the Vladivostok squadron of cruisers in the period 1904-1905 was devoted to a lot of analysts, they acted very effectively.
  40. 0
    20 September 2019 17: 59
    There is no other scenario of inter-theater maneuver by surface forces, with which we would be guaranteed to be in time everywhere.

    You can still build civilian ships so that at X-hour military crews with all their property landed on them and converted into warships. Call it a flash fleet.

    If you wish, you can not recognize the belonging of the military crew and leave the vessel in the status of "captured by unknown terrorists."
    1. -1
      20 September 2019 21: 58
      You can still build civilian ships so that at X-hour military crews with all their property landed on them and converted into warships. Call it a flash fleet.


      https://topwar.ru/156181-vozvraschenie-nadvodnyh-rejderov-vozmozhno-li-ono.html

      If you wish, you can not recognize the belonging of the military crew and leave the vessel in the status of "captured by unknown terrorists."


      Stupidity.
      1. +2
        21 September 2019 03: 24
        Interestingly, would the author of the post himself go to such a crew?
        When the database is recognized as pirated and put to the wall :-)
        Or do all green men without identification marks give him no peace? :-)
        1. -1
          21 September 2019 16: 43
          The author of the post was frostbitten much above average and already went to such a thing ... Well, okay.

          They would give the order - go. Anywhere. A volunteer would not beg for it.

          On the other hand, the day before the conflict, the AIS turns off at night at sea, the Andreevsky flag rises, the name on board changes, documents on the shore are drawn up properly, registry organizations are notified that the ship is a military, board number is being put on board.

          And yet, no piracy.
          1. +1
            23 September 2019 02: 05
            So raiding, pirates with a different name.
            1. 0
              24 September 2019 14: 10
              Raiding in itself is a legal form of VD. Under a number of conditions. And if you do not touch the civilian ships, but extinguish the floating rear, and even on a ship that openly acts as a military one (flag, no AIS, etc.), then there can be no questions at all.
    2. 0
      21 September 2019 10: 36
      It seems that civilian vessels can be used now, in conditions of a shortage of naval personnel. For example, we take a trawler, put a GAS with the GPBA - we get a sonar reconnaissance ship, we use it to open the underwater situation. Upon detection and classification of the enemy, we localize the area of ​​location and, if necessary, already send out a force of forces there or continue tracking. Also with radio and electronic intelligence.
      1. -1
        22 September 2019 02: 50
        The owner will give you a trawler now! Well, do not tell!
    3. -1
      22 September 2019 02: 49
      This was done in the USSR - now the overwhelming majority of the fleets are private. Try to touch and the fleet flees under a different "convenient" flag.
  41. +1
    21 September 2019 07: 36
    Quote: Vadmir
    Thus, at sea, in the event of a major war, we need only submarines with ICBMs and the submarines protecting them.

    Just in a big war, submarines with ICBMs are no longer needed. Their first task - the containment of the war - they have not completed. The second - retaliatory strike - if they could, then they did it right away and no longer needed.
    1. +2
      21 September 2019 15: 11
        Everything is logical, only you came from the wrong side. Impact direction. Flight time. Low trajectory. As a result, reducing the time for making a decision, and hope for the "Perimeter", thank you :-) Continental ICBMs are known and "shot". And with the new Trident warheads (fuses), the probability of their destruction is close to 1. The war will not end with an exchange of blows. Why would the Americans have ships to reload ammunition on SSBNs? And if necessary, "Boreas" will be able to jump out. There is a chance.
      1. -1
        21 September 2019 16: 46
        There is one more unpleasant thing.

        Americans are pumping over the topic with "nuclear bags". Nothing is written about this in the open press, but there are precedents of blabbering comrades, moreover, from the crews of SSBNs.

        They are very intensively preparing a preemptive strike there right now.
        1. 0
          22 September 2019 02: 56
          Timokhin! I highly recommend applying ice to your head! Atomic backpacks from SSBN crews! It's like Rezun: "I was sitting in an English pub and an old sailor told me over a glass of beer that England supplied weapons to the USSR even before the start of the war" ... Well, you just so inferred from yourself that all the intelligence officers of the fleets and the First Directorate of the General Staff of the Ministry of Defense are crying and stands in line with outstretched hand! "Preemptive Strike Now" - Get under the bed and body attack for guerrilla warfare!
          1. -1
            22 September 2019 13: 21
            You do not understand what is at stake.
      2. 0
        21 September 2019 17: 47
        No, there is no chance to jump out - the timing is for those who deliver the first disarming strike. And it will be chosen so when all our SSBNs are under the gun and nothing else.

        The Americans have plans to launch the first disarming strike. In the event of a successful outcome of such an attack, you can upload new SLBMs to the SSBN and blackmail the enemy with the threat of repeated attacks. If we plan the first disarming strike, then we will make sense.
        1. +1
          23 September 2019 02: 03
          Well, then there is no chance.
          You probably know, just write about it.
        2. +1
          24 September 2019 14: 15
          And it will be chosen so when all our SSBNs are under the gun and nothing else.


          Around ensuring the impossibility for the enemy of this, this is all that is spinning.
    2. -1
      22 September 2019 02: 51
      And then nothing is needed at all ...
  42. +1
    21 September 2019 11: 55
    You have to write the truth. The Pacific Theater is not locked in anything, there is also access to the Atlantic from the bases of the Northern Fleet, for operations in the Mediterranean there is a base in Latakia. The tasks of the Baltic and Black Sea Fleet to cover the western and southern flanks destroying the enemy at sea and from the sea. Russia does not have one thing - a sufficient number of warships and auxiliary ships on combat duty at sea so that NATO does not have any thoughts whatsoever to decide by military means, even somewhere locally not only against Russia itself, but against anyone nor was without the permission of Russia. And Russia cannot build a sufficient number of powerful warships because of the counterrevolutionary coup that took place in 91, the establishment of the power of the big bourgeoisie, the inefficient thieves' raw-material economy, the miserable GDP growth, budget plundering, gigantic corruption at all levels of power, including the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the Federal Security Service .
  43. 0
    21 September 2019 12: 35
    Regarding the aviation fleet.
    Would suggest:
    all Su 24MM2 should not be written off, and the regiments flying on them should be transferred to the fleets. Let them fly there until the resources are completely depleted. On their basis, then create 8 regiments of the Su 30/34 for the "near" echelon.
    All Tu 95 to modify the needs of the fleet. And dividing into 16 squadrons plus 4/8 IL 78 each, arrange: Arkhangelsk, Vorkuta, Anadyr, Magadan, Petropavlovsk-Kamchat., For the long-distance train.
    (increase the order for Tu 160M2 to 80 pieces to compensate for KSA)
  44. +1
    22 September 2019 05: 41
    Alexander. I will write it like this, it doesn’t work well, it resets. According to Dudko. And there is. In the conclusions of the report, out of five, one contact is confirmed, the second is doubtful, three are not. The dispute was about whether he disrupted the Ohio exit to the BS, or it was in the training area. In the first case, the star of the Hero shone on him, in the second, thanks for the service. It turned out that the second option. That's all. Exchange of views on the page-> Encryption "Poseidon". https://shoehanger.livejournal.com/530973.html#comments
    1. 0
      24 September 2019 05: 43
      There is no dispute. The commander believes that thanks to his actions, the commander of a foreign boat experienced difficulties in solving the problem of going to sea. No one else can challenge his claim. Well, because even if someone was nearby, he was not a commander at that time. The commander at sea alone, and always!
      1. 0
        24 September 2019 14: 12
        Well, how is it ... There is intelligence data for the same period, there are noise records made on the boat itself ..
  45. -1
    23 September 2019 21: 36
    To the author: having spare dozens of frigates in all fleets is not bad, but expensive. I propose another option: The cost of the hull and engines is not more than a quarter of the price of the ship. Therefore, you need to build cheap floating boxes. Even if these boxes are 1,5 times larger than warships equal to them, it is still more profitable. In peacetime, these vessels can be used as ferries. In wartime, military complexes call in and load on them. As soon as they fired back - they no longer feel sorry for them, you can evacuate the combat crew, and let the ships creep home with the running crew.
    .
    But in general, with the current range of aviation and the accuracy of missiles, we don’t really need ships. If only for defense. Then it’s better and cheaper to have more planes, missiles ... on the shore. Roads capable of performing the functions of GDP ....
  46. 0
    24 September 2019 05: 38
    In childhood, we all, well, or almost all dreamed of going out of the pond as far from the shore as possible on a raft or boat. If someone was lucky and he fulfilled his desire, and suddenly he found himself alone in the middle of a lake or river, and even in a fresh wind, then most had no desire to build ships. Yes, and mom cursed and dad could put in a corner. Also here. Many, many adults, who have not had a chance on the raft, want to build a fleet and go into the ocean. Well, or at least speculate. Believe me, as soon as they are given such a task and also under responsibility, then the pink glasses fly off instantly. And the desire to build a ship disappears as soon as the dreamer finds himself in the open sea at 5-6 points.
  47. 0
    24 September 2019 11: 02
    Once again, the maxim "defense is too serious a matter to be trusted by the military alone ..." The greatest efforts of the state should be aimed at the utmost reduction of the possibility of military confrontation, and not at creating more and more tension in the international situation, which is happening now.
    1. 0
      24 September 2019 15: 09
      For some reason, after the previous "detente" and the withdrawal of troops, we got wars already on our territory.
  48. kig
    0
    25 September 2019 12: 04
    Only the emergence of post-war large aircraft carriers changed this state of affairs. - I suspect that Gerald Ford will pass perfectly the new Panama Canal
  49. 0
    15 October 2019 14: 31
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    Well, what can Russia not build with proper funding?

    bringing the funds to the task rarely exceeds 30%
    under such conditions, investments are somewhere dubious.
  50. 0
    15 August 2022 13: 55
    An important article, although I consider some of the conclusions to be erroneous. For example, the fact that the United States has the same problem, they say their fleet is divided in the same way. But it's not a problem. Because unlike us, his fleet is still divided into 2 halves, and not into 4 fleets. In addition, there are not so many differences in the waters of the Pacific coast and the Atlantic coast as in our Black Sea and, for example, the Pacific. I have long read a series of articles by this author and several series of articles by other authors discussing similar ideas. Just now I decided to re-read this article and refresh my memory.

    And that's what I thought, either this author or his opponents voiced the idea of ​​returning the river fleet. I'm not sure about the usefulness of this idea, but I thought that one idea from there can be used.

    How not to build a fleet, but in case of an emergency, the northern fleet will be able to reinforce the Pacific or Baltic only in a few weeks. If you need to help the Black Sea Fleet, you will have to wait even longer. And all these maneuvers take place near the waters of potential enemy countries.

    And that's what I thought. Heavy ships, the flagships of the fleet, are really difficult to move between different fleets, and therefore it is desirable to provide each fleet with its own flagships in sufficient numbers. But a heavy ship is useless without escort ships, destroyers and frigates. These types of ships are the most in the fleet, and they make up, if not half, then a third of the total power of the fleet. And at the same time - they are quite small (although there are series of destroyers that are larger in size and displacement than some cruisers).

    This means that an internal network of channels can be created for them, which will allow the fleets to transfer frigates, light destroyers and possibly diesel-electric submarines to help other fleets. These inland waterways will be much shorter than the maritime routes currently available. And when building sufficiently deep and wide channels, the speed of movement along them will be comparable to the speed of movement along the sea in low waves.

    Thus, it is possible to create a fleet based on the concept - separate flagships for individual fleets, and massive small vessels for all fleets.

    Purely technically, such a network of inland waterways can eventually be used so that large merchant ships can also sail on them - but such a project will already build gigantic money (but in theory it can make a profit if we sell the right to sail through these channels merchant ships sailing in the directions of the Baltic-Black Sea, Baltic-Eastern Mediterranean and possibly the Baltic-Japan and Sea of ​​Okhotsk). If from this network of canals, a path is laid to the Caspian Sea, then it will be possible to use the same path for trade with some countries of Central Asia. Or lay a canal to the Aral Sea. Then we will not only restore this sea, but also get a shipping channel for communication with Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan (although this paragraph is more of a dream than plans)

    A network of such transport channels can be built through a queuing system. When each of the queues is created to create its own transport route, and if the construction of each of the queues is completed, we get a useful transport direction.

    I propose the following scheme:

    1st stage - construction of the Baltika-Chernomorsk canal. The essence is to expand the system of routes connecting the Baltic Sea and the Black Sea in order to create a shipping channel for moving frigates, destroyers and diesel-electric submarines (on the surface) of the Black Sea and Baltic Seas between the seas. In this case, in the event of an aggravation of the situation in one of the regions, within a few days, the fleet near the hot region will receive reinforcements from the neighboring one.

    2nd stage - a significant expansion of the White Sea Canal in order to allow light ships to cross it (all the same frigates, destroyers and diesel-electric submarines).

    Stage 3 is a completely new track created on the basis of the Kolyma River. This is a channel for the navigable connection of the East Siberian Sea of ​​the Arctic Ocean with the Sea of ​​Okhotsk of the Pacific Ocean. Such a path will not only shorten the path of the ships and the Northern Fleet to the Pacific, but also secure it, because on such a path we do not approach Alaska, where the American troops and fleet are located.
    Technically, this can be finished, because the presence of such channels will already significantly reduce the time and secure the movement of most of the ships between fleets.

    The main problem of such a plan is that in winter, icebreakers will have to be allocated to move ships on the Arctic section of the route. And therefore, it is possible to plan in advance, and build in case of finding funding for a new, most complex line.

    4th stage - construction of a new navigable canal from the Caspian Sea to the canal built in the first stage (which is from the Black Sea to the Baltic). It can be organized through the deepening of the Volga and the expansion of the Volga-Don Canal.

    Stage 5 is the largest and most expensive, but it makes possible the fastest and safest rotation of ships between fleets. Namely, the creation of a network of shipping channels from the Caspian Sea to the Sea of ​​Okhotsk. To simplify maintenance and traffic, the path itself can not only be built on the basis of existing Siberian rivers. But also to create a series of large reservoirs to create "naval nodes" along the way. In the reservoirs, ports can be organized for the further transportation of goods and resources to the surrounding cities and settlements. In places of the greatest extent of navigable channels. You can try to use a scheme where we do not dig one long channel, but organize a large reservoir between two rivers, and break through two shorter channels to connect the reservoir to the rivers that it should connect. In such a scheme, reservoirs (small seas inside the continent) will play the role of staging posts along the way. On them it will be possible to make stops for rest and replenishment of provisions or ammunition. They can unload goods. Damaged ships can stand on them for repairs. In them, after all, it is possible to breed fish for subsequent catching. This is an incredibly complex engineering project that clearly claims to be an engineering wonder of the world.