How to defeat a drone?

139

Our media spoke so synchronously about the fact that Saudi Arabia was unable to protect its refineries and wells from semi-literate militants, that it is worth considering.

And not only on the topic of what the Saudis tried to defend there, but also on the topic of protection from these self-made UAVs and the same “cruise” missiles.



The main motive - the repetition of Putin's words, they say, would be armed not with the American "Patriots", but with the Russian C-400, you would be happy.

Would it be?

We decided to consider this issue with the assistance of a specialist. Our specialist is a former employee of one of the military research institutes. That is, a person who worked precisely in the direction of how to most effectively condemn an ​​enemy drone.

And to begin with, we will try to answer the question of whether it is so important which Saudi defense systems tried to defend themselves. And how really important is the replacement of the Patriot with the Triumph.





Not important at all.

No, buying C-400 instead of the Patriot is useful. Especially for the Russian budget, so in this regard we are only welcome. But essentially ...

Both the American complex and the Russian one in our case will have one problem: they will work equally poorly against small-sized low-flying targets. That the S-300 (and the S-400 is still a modification of the S-300PM3), that the MIM-104 Patriots were not designed to work for such purposes. In the 70s of the last century Drones if they were, then if they were inferior in size to the pilots, then a little.

Of course, there are modifications, and today we have to chase after today, however, in our opinion, the air defense is still losing the UAV. Those are becoming faster, less noticeable, and nailing them is becoming more difficult.

The best example of this is plastic airplanes, which terrorists fire at anyone they can reach, including ours in Syria.



The wing span is in 4 meters, the gasoline engine from the trimmer in the 4-5 horsepower, for example, XAircraft or KapteinKuk for poverty, as a base for flight control and Arduink as a processor for everything else.

In general, the cost of 200 dollars at the exit (with "Captain"). And this structure may well carry up to 10 kg of payload. We recount in C-4 or something from this opera, and we get a very wide range of possibilities in terms of damage. Moreover, “Arduin” is quite able to activate the detonator.

And the most unpleasant thing is that this structure is almost invisible to radars. And if it flies at an altitude of 50-100 meters, and with the envelope of the landscape, everything is sad for air defense in general.

The Saudis had the Patriots and the very old Hawk complexes. Compared to the Syrians, these are C-300 and C-125. That is, you can run, the only question is efficiency. It will be approximately the same, that is, below average. Something will fly through such a defense.

Meanwhile, photographs of the damage to the complexes showed that the job was done perfectly. Oil tanks on Abqaiq, and huge tanks, are difficult to miss, but in each of the eight affected gaping holes from the warheads of cruise missiles that fell into them or drones.



We can say that the Saudis encountered a problem, but in fact this problem encountered oil tanks Saudi Arabia.

And you can criticize the Patriots as much as you like and praise C-400, we are sure that if our air defense systems were in place, the result would probably be less sad, but the full success is more than doubtful.

By the way, the world is not facing such flying products for the first time. And the tail stretches from the last century, because in the first campaign in the Gulf, the Iraqis used something that did not quite fit into the canons. And already in the second campaign there they began to use everything that turned up by the arm. That is, it could fly and explode.

Perhaps this is precisely why immediately after the victorious end of the Gulf War in the USA, they began to seriously prepare for the fact that all “undeveloped countries” would begin to try to produce inexpensive, but simple and affordable ersatz rockets. Winged, of course.

It was thought by someone that in order for such a rocket to be able to take off, go along the route in accordance with the terrain based on GPS data and just dive at the target, you need the power of an 486 processor, 16 MB of RAM and 1GB of memory on your hard drive. Well, the simplest GPS receiver.

Today, all this can be arranged with the help of the Rapsberry Pi or Arduino controller, which for some 35 dollars, “Aliexpress” is glad to offer to everyone.

There they wish.

But let's leave the Saudi Arabia air defense system for a while and ask another question: how to shoot IT that flies at 100 km / h at an altitude of less than 100 meters and drags explosives to our oil tanks?

It’s necessary to shoot down ...

Now everyone has EW in their heads and lips. Omnipotent and omnipotent. We will rejoice, yes, we will have more success in this direction than the others will have.



"Silok." It is the antidron complex. "Silok" is powered from a conventional outlet, maybe from 127В. But in fact it is weapon close range. Effective ranges, depending on the signal passage, are not more than 5 km, in height more than 200 m and not more than 1 km with UAV height less than 100 m.

The numbers are clear. If the UAV will sneak at an altitude of less than 100 meters, then even the latest "Silok" can detect it at a distance of less than a kilometer.

The Silok is able to take control if the drone is manually controlled from the ground, or create interference in the entire range of radio frequencies. In the latter case, the UAV simply loses control and crashes. In the first case, it is necessary for the drone to work in the answering machine mode, i.e. He gave out not only video information to the operator, but also reported his coordinates.

If the UAV does not meet these criteria, that is, it goes according to the program ...

We have Rosehip-AERO. The station is still being finalized, but the project looks promising.

How to defeat a drone?


The station can cause noise interference both within the range and narrowly targeted. After dimming the control signal in drones, a program usually works to return the device to the launch point. To prevent this, “Rosehip-AERO” creates a false navigation field (time to create - a few minutes), changing the dynamic coordinates, as a result of which the UAV is diverted to the side and may ultimately land where we need, and not the enemy.

But also not without nuances, for accurate work it is necessary to know the UAV parameters, that is, to collect information first. There is not always time for this, and UAVs assembled in shed conditions can be very different from ordinary ones.

And here we had an idea that many would not like.

A UAV that is following a route using an inertial reporting system. For example, collected on elementary giblets from China. Well, a compass - no problem. Gyro-compass? Yes, the gyro stabilizer from the video camera will solve the problem no worse. Speed ​​sensors and other things are taken from any children's copter. And on the knee a system is going through which the device, conditionally not using satellite navigation, can fly from point A to point B. From memory.

At point B, serious things begin. The navigation system is turned on, the device produces accurate guidance, and then attacks the target. How long does it take? Little. But up to this point, UAVs can be tried to suppress as much as necessary. But it’s impossible to give the drone the brains or take control if it simply isn’t.

Now smart people will say: who will write the program to these masturbation workers? Our answer will be this: since gentlemen, money from terrorist organizations and countries of the Middle East, to put it mildly, do not need money, then there is someone to write the program for. For a suitcase "greens" - there.

Twisting the idea from different angles, we recognized it as unpleasant, but having the right to life. It’s good that so far the nuclear charges in the world are under lock and key. It seems to be.

And what if this point C is with us? And will something fly there?

The question, of course, is interesting. And let's go answer from top to bottom.

Yes, we have C-400. A very good complex, so to speak, with a fair amount of confidence. But how appropriate is it to set it against a drone weighing 50 kg?

The smallest rocket for the C-400, namely the 9M96E2, has a length of almost 6 meters and a mass of 240 kg. Yes, active radar homing is present. This is all good, but how much can a rocket maneuver in case of what? And how easy will it be for her to visit a target in which the metal is slightly more than 10% of the total mass?

It will be unrealistic. In both cases. But there is also a third caveat.

Not so long ago, talking about night fighters, I wrote how the Germans, brought to hysteria by the outrage that the crew of Po-2 did at night, specially for fighting this aircraft, they washed down a special night fighter from the Fokke-Wulf-189, then is from the "frame." Why?

Yes, because it was not fast and could take the locator first, and then, when the Germans realized that the Po-2 was not “lit up,” they installed the ancestor of the current thermal imagers.

The C-400 missile is intended for an aircraft, which is a contrasting target. It is made of metal, there is a lot of metal, it can be seen. He, the plane, is fast.

What about the drone? 90-100 km / h - where is it? And the minimum of metal is how?

And then, there is no data on the cost of one rocket, but we think that they will be more expensive than the “Shell”. But there is data on missiles for the "Shell-1С". About 10 million for one 57Е6Е.

Yes, there is "Shell-1С". With guns and rockets.



Alas, guns are almost useless here. Watched more than once what it looks like. Too big shell for such a purpose, too few of them.

57E6 rockets are good. They take any flying target, and they take it confidently if they take a radar. But then again, we compare the price / quality parameter and understand that by firing bombing drones with such missiles, you can bankrupt any country, perhaps, except for the USA and Saudi Arabia.

And again: the radius of work is very small.

If we were assigned to protect tanks with oil from drones, then we see this option: first solve the detection problem. Visual - at 100-150 meters in height, nothing is visible or almost inaudible, but with the radar it is still sadder. So the principle of the good old posts of VNOS may well work.

A radar capable of detecting small and low speed targets at a distance of more than a kilometer, unfortunately, exists so far only in words or paper. Even with "Shell-1С" this is done through optics and visually. Nobody will cancel the physics and extremely small EPR, and all assurances that our systems “confidently” take targets with the EPR of 0,1-0,3 sq. m, this is, you know ... 30 x 30 cm square of metal from a distance of a kilometer ...

By the way, very often from such a distance such an EPR have ... geese! And what, the electrolyte in their circulatory system and water in the body sometimes give such pictures ...

So, visual observation posts. At such a distance so that you can effectively warn about the attack and give the opportunity to prepare for reflection.

What to beat?

Opinions diverged. Initially, it seemed that the “Shell” seemed quite to itself, but then we remembered the torment of calculations in Alabino, when they tried to shoot down the drone target from the cannons ...

Yes, the 30-mm shell is completely unsuitable here. Too big. The ammunition is too small. Too strong a shell, because he was counting on either a serious rocket or a helicopter. But not for a plastic creation with a motor from a brushcutter.

And Shilka, even though it has more trunks, and has a smaller caliber, looks better, but not perfect. For the same reasons.

If we decided what to blame, then - do not laugh - ShKAS! Well, or something like that. Spark MG-34 or MG-42, but better ShKAS.

Ideal anti-dron means: aviation machine gun rifle caliber.

Rate of fire - quite. The number of rounds is the same. The cartridge is fast but weak. Yes, the wing will pierce and not notice, but how many are there? ShKAS gives out such a cloud, at least there are heels, but it will get into the engine. Or in the gas tank. Or in the blades.

In general, with probability theory and ShKAS it is quite possible.

Someone may say that this is not serious. Well, say it. In fact. Seriously, what we see in Saudi Arabia. The serious thing is that today nothing can be opposed to a small apparatus, which is poorly detected by modern means of observation, and therefore it is difficult to destroy it.

We can only draw a preliminary conclusion that a very serious adversary for air defense appeared on the scene - a small-sized kamikaze drone. Poorly detectable and difficult to destroy.

Well, the conclusion is this: we are waiting for a new round of development of air defense around the world. The antidronic direction is already late in its development.
139 comments
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  1. +2
    18 September 2019 05: 56
    According to data from cheap ultrasonic sensors and lidars, UAVs may well fly on autopilot at altitudes less than 10 m with a relief envelope. So all kinds of air defense are ineffective or expensive here. It is enough to simply surround the guarded object at a certain distance and from all sides with several layers of the usual finely woven net - rowanberry. Previously, fenders from it were popular among summer residents ...
    1. +6
      18 September 2019 06: 38
      And if at a height of 20 meters will fly?
      1. 0
        18 September 2019 07: 30
        if the object is significant, then they will make a grid at 50 meters, but this is not a panacea - one drone makes a hole in the grid, while others come in
        1. +3
          18 September 2019 07: 32
          Or the drone in front of the net will rise higher - you can do this even on an arduino without problems
          Threat mesh at 50 m is the height above the sixteen-story building. Not an easy task to do, but getting around is not very difficult
          1. +2
            18 September 2019 07: 35
            Well, ShKAS on the roof ...
            1. +3
              18 September 2019 07: 38
              :-D Setkupol at nuclear power plants with ShKAS on top of the head.
              1. +3
                18 September 2019 07: 41
                I even know how it will look !!
          2. +3
            18 September 2019 15: 04
            Quote: Avior
            Threat mesh at 50 m is the height above the sixteen-story building. Not an easy task to do, but getting around is not very difficult

            ==========
            Shl! Actually, even during the time of not only World War II, but also during the First World War, barrage balloons were used - such "sausages" from which ropes and nets hung ...
            London (World War I):


            London (2 World)


            Moscow 1942


            Nevsky Prospect, Leningrad 1941:
            1. +1
              18 September 2019 15: 07
              this is for a short time, they won’t hang like that all the time.
              but actually an option
              1. +1
                18 September 2019 18: 45
                Yes, an option ...
                Well, I hope the quadruple Maxim will now be able to see ... if ShKAS, then bring the idea to the limit ...
                What was not dreamed of ...
                Batteries of four Maximov from the warehouses of the atomic power station of nuclear power plants and refineries, our heart sank ... wassat
        2. 0
          21 September 2019 19: 23
          Dear authors - Roman Skomorokhov and Sergey Pavlov! 1 sq. meter is ^ 10 4 sq. cm.
          A radar capable of detecting small and low speed targets at a distance of more than a kilometer, unfortunately, exists so far only in words or paper. Even with "Shell-1С" this is done through optics and visually. Nobody will cancel the physics and extremely small EPR, and all assurances that our systems “confidently” take targets with the EPR of 0,1-0,3 sq. m, this is, you know ... 10 x 10 cm square of metal from a distance of a kilometer ...

          Therefore, you have gross mistakes - you need to work on the mistakes. "Pantsir-S1" has a detection range of 36 km, and a target with RCS = 0,0002 sq. meters (2 sq. cm) will be detected by him at a distance of at least 3,6 km and this is a square of 1, 414 x 1,414 cm ^ 2. With you, everything is wrong. Target with RCS = 0,1 sq. meters will be detected by "Pantsir-S1" at a distance of at least 17 km and this is a square of metal 31,6 x 31,6 cm ^ 2 - again you have gross errors. Read books. It amazes me that no one on the forum of such a VO publication sees gross errors and statements by the authors.
          1. -1
            21 September 2019 20: 04
            Dear authors! You made a mistake with the goose.
            By the way, very often from such a distance such an EPR have ... geese! And what, the electrolyte in their circulatory system and water in the body sometimes give such pictures ...

            Gray goose - min. EPR = 32 sq. cm max EPR = 225 sq. see Fix.
      2. The comment was deleted.
    2. +3
      18 September 2019 08: 07
      All these homemade products fly very slowly and emit a specific acoustic background.
      Accordingly, the complex should include:
      - spaced sound sensors for primary orientation;
      - small radars in the mm range with fixed canvases (3-4 canvases for viewing 360 degrees);
      - optics with high resolution and night channel, can be backlit;
      - 10-15 kW laser, they will not need more.

      Such a thing will burn homemade packs.
      1. +5
        18 September 2019 08: 29
        Buzz those with ICE, electric is much quieter.
        IR radiation in electric is very small.
        Again, if such systems appear, they will practice dive attack with planning near the target more.
        Unfortunately, the level of artisanal UAVs is growing before our eyes
        1. +3
          18 September 2019 09: 50
          Again, if such systems appear, they will practice dive attack with planning near the target more.


          And if you think about it?
          Such UAVs are not army weapons. An army at such a range will simply adjust the MLRS battery and roll out the gas station (it’s ridiculous how the gas station will even survive in the case of full-scale databases)
          This is guerrilla warfare, or "terrorism." And it is not the army with the S-300, the Patriots and all the air defense that should do this - it will not help. Specialists hugging
          the army. But the army is no longer to protect the gas station, but to educate the local population, right up to the dead zone around the important gas station.
          However, the Jews have a lot of experience. It’s not a sin to learn from them. They have been engaged in such a war for decades in the same Gaza.
          1. 0
            18 September 2019 09: 53
            What are you talking about? At what range and at whom will they shoot? Launched zagromirovannye and washed away from there.
            1. +1
              18 September 2019 10: 22
              Launched zagromirovannye and washed away from there.


              Do you understand what this is about? Are terrorists launching drones in batches in the US? Maybe they are allowed in Germany or in Russia? Isolated cases are possible, and without any drone. But this is the work of the special services, not the air defense. Not chasing flies, but turning and removing a nearby trash can - that's the task. If you need an army, take it. Capture the capital, stick your flag, put your ruler with the police, suppress the centers of "partisans", normally close the border and build your state. Then you can come up with lasers, nets, shotguns. Otherwise, how the Jews will have to build "Domes" and "walls" and think whether a rocket will arrive at the kindergarten or be shot down.
              1. +1
                18 September 2019 10: 29
                I understand, and you?
                Militants attacked the Russian Hmeimim air base in Syria using unmanned aerial vehicles. Air defense repelled the attack. Six drones destroyed.

                “The air defense of the Khmeimim airbase reflects an attack by objects in the sky above the base, presumably UAVs launched by militants of terrorist groups,” RIA Novosti quoted a Syria TV channel as saying.
          2. +1
            18 September 2019 20: 51
            You are close to the truth, but not the army, but something like "wolfhounds" from "SMERSH", and the special forces of the Ministry of Internal Affairs are in the wings.
            And whose else is the sofa, which will offer better
      2. +2
        18 September 2019 10: 10
        You can also put a generator of directional EM pulses - to burn electronic stuffing at a distance. And you can put all this joy on a small balloon or airship at an altitude of 100-200 meters.
        1. +2
          18 September 2019 15: 23
          Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
          You can also put a generator of directional EM pulses - to burn electronic stuffing at a distance.

          =========
          Duc such a contraption already seems to exist .... "Satchel-E" is called!

          It completely burns all electronics (and not only from "homemade" drones, but also from combat missiles!) At distances up to 14 km !!!
          Presented at the Malaysian arms exhibition LIMA-2001 (2001 !!). The domestic military has not yet become too interested (bulky and too long reload time - approx. 20 minutes!). However, all further work on this topic is strictly classified! More details were here, in VO (https://topwar.ru/13539-ranec-protiv-raket.html).
      3. 0
        18 September 2019 20: 03
        Once upon a time (1988) I saw SNAR - ground artillery reconnaissance (radar) station. It seems that the lower detection limit was at the level of 10 meters (but not sure)
        Perhaps if it allowed to work so low at short ranges - its principles can also be used against drones
    3. +4
      18 September 2019 09: 29
      Now every smartphone can even determine a smile on his face. No one bothers to load a satellite map into the same crack and fly on it with the help of a video camera. Hardware capabilities allow this with interest, and writing a program is only a matter of time. Such a guidance system will indeed become a problem - it will most likely fail to drown out or confuse it. Even if you hide the stationary target with smoke, you can still focus your eyes on the sides or go up higher - this is just a matter of software complexity. And if you still make a drone to make a bird in the form factor, you will only have to destroy everything flying in a radius of visibility. I once read that in pre-apocalyptic times there will be no birds, now it seems it becomes clear why.
      1. 0
        18 September 2019 21: 46
        Quote: puzoter
        And if you still make a drone to make a bird in the form factor, you will only have to destroy everything flying in a radius of visibility. I once read that in pre-apocalyptic times there will be no birds, now it seems it becomes clear why.

        Complete the installation with a directional microphone. A motor with a propeller sounds quite typical, so writing software to distinguish between drones and birds will not be difficult.
        1. 0
          24 September 2019 13: 31
          An electric motor will not detect any microphone from a kilometer, all the more wide-directional, and a drone can fly much higher. From the sound location of aircraft during the war refused.
          1. 0
            24 September 2019 18: 05
            Quote: puzoter
            An electric motor will not detect any microphone from a kilometer

            Our task is to distinguish a drone in the form factor of a bird from a bird, right? And at such a distance as to shoot down before it can cause damage. But a bird-sized drone is too small to carry a serious weapon capable of operating from a kilometer or more. That is, he will have to approach the guarded object sooner or later. This means that a system is needed that will observe all flying objects in a certain radius, including birds, and, if a "bird" with non-standard signs is detected, shoot it down. If the birdie flies too close, a directional microphone (not wide-beam) is activated, which analyzes it for the sound of an electric motor.
            1. 0
              25 September 2019 12: 14
              A scattering of termite balls is sufficient for an oil refinery. The drone in the bird form factor is quite capable of delivering them and does not miss from any height.
              1. 0
                25 September 2019 16: 25
                Quote: puzoter
                enough scattering of termite balls

                Hmm.
                How do you plan to place this "scattering" for yourself, and even organize its ignition on board an apparatus the size of a pigeon / crow / seagull. Too small balls will burn out in flight, they can be blown away by the wind and all that.
                1. 0
                  26 September 2019 11: 30
                  Even during the war, termite balls were used, which self-ignited from a blow to the tank’s armor and burned it. On a drone the size of, say, an eagle, you can place two or three kilograms of such balls, these are 30-60 pieces. Or as many TNT checkers. Or a dozen VOGs. Depends on the imagination. In calm weather, for example, at dawn, you can get a canopy by the size of an oil refinery even from space.
                  1. 0
                    26 September 2019 17: 02
                    Quote: puzoter
                    Even during the war, termite balls were used, which self-ignited from a blow to the tank’s armor and burned it. On a drone the size of, say, an eagle, you can place two or three kilograms of such balls, these are 30-60 pieces. Or as many TNT checkers. Or a dozen VOGs. Depends on the imagination. In calm weather, for example, at dawn, you can get a canopy by the size of an oil refinery even from space.

                    The TSh-300 termite ball for a 125 mm ampoule weighed 300 grams. And, most likely, it cannot be made much easier, because high-temperature termite is difficult to ignite, and other pyrotechnic compositions must be used to ignite it.
                    But that’s not the point. It makes sense to disguise the drone as an eagle where they are found. In addition, simulating the flight of a bird of prey will be more difficult than just setting the program to fly in a straight line. So such a disguise will be revealed quite simply.
    4. +1
      18 September 2019 21: 35
      And why can't the same lidars be used to detect drones?
      1. +1
        18 September 2019 23: 00
        Quote: Narak-zempo
        And why can't the same lidars be used to detect drones?
        Because the lidar shines narrowly and not far in front of it, that’s why it is used on moving devices (cars, for example) to recognize the immediate obstacles that arise in front of a moving device. On a stationary installation, it is simply useless.
    5. The comment was deleted.
  2. +5
    18 September 2019 06: 26
    Yes, the gyro stabilizer from the video camera will solve the problem no worse.

    Well, a gyro stabilizer and a gyrocompass are not the same thing all the same
    By the way, there is such an Arduino set
    But the most important thing is
    And on the knee a system is going through which the device, conditionally not using satellite navigation, can fly from point A to point B. From memory.

    At point B, serious things begin. The navigation system is turned on, the device produces accurate guidance, and then attacks the target. How long does it take? Little. But up to this point, UAVs can be tried to suppress as much as necessary. But it’s impossible to give the drone the brains or take control if it simply isn’t.

    The algorithm must be strictly opposite - it can fly before the start of the operation of the red UAV by jeepies, and in the end, a short gap - here in this case it is very difficult to deal with it, and the accuracy will remain quite high
    As for two-way communication with the operator, then at an altitude of less than 100 meters, theoretically, the range can be up to forty kilometers when the operator is working from the ground - the horizon cannot be canceled.
  3. -2
    18 September 2019 06: 34
    Arabs have a shell. Does not help
    1. +9
      18 September 2019 07: 31
      must be worn, otherwise it will not help
    2. +2
      18 September 2019 10: 42
      When among non-Arabs, it helps. And even among Arabs sometimes too - taking into account the coefficient of Arabism.
  4. +2
    18 September 2019 06: 36
    Um, ShKAS? What for lasers, what for landmines with remote detonation, will we hammer from a machine gun? As for the characteristics of the radars, the article has very few figures.
    1. +4
      18 September 2019 07: 32
      30 mm shells to do with remote detonation - and a cloud of fragments from a dozen shells - quite
      1. +3
        18 September 2019 07: 40
        Well, while the "experts" are talking, ours have been dealing with these issues for a long time, "Peresvet" is already ready, 57 and 30 mm shells with remote detonation are on the way somewhere. You can also add OLS and pattern recognition so that you don't shoot at the birds. But again, the next round is disguising drones as storks or the like.
      2. +1
        18 September 2019 12: 48
        small-caliber shells, it’s still better for large purposes and can’t be exchanged for fragments, but let’s say, a fixed line with 57 mm caliber with shrapnel with remote detonation looks more successful
  5. +1
    18 September 2019 06: 43
    Really a problem, from a gun to sparrows. The ratio of the cost of the target and the cost of the destruction method are not comparable. But when considering the issue, it is necessary to take into account the purpose of interception, a small-sized drone is one thing, a cruise missile is another, mass matters and size, taking into account the design, and speed matters. The most important solution cost. To intercept a drone flying at a speed of 100 km / h, an adjustable ammunition flying at a speed of 100 m / s will be behind the eyes. In fact, the same small-sized cruise missile.
    1. 0
      18 September 2019 08: 35
      Really a problem, from a gun to sparrows. The ratio of the cost of the target and the cost of the destruction method are not comparable.

      To put a radar on the BTR-80 - an excellent way to deal with low-speed and small-sized drones.
      1. -1
        18 September 2019 20: 38
        Quote: lucul
        Really a problem, from a gun to sparrows. The ratio of the cost of the target and the cost of the destruction method are not comparable.

        To put a radar on the BTR-80 - an excellent way to deal with low-speed and small-sized drones.

        Stupid. Well, is the Radar on Shilka - and then?
        It simply cannot detect such a "stealth" target ...

        Here you need to take "into service" ideas from other environments.
        For example, the same sub-melting is not looking for adversary by common noise. and its components. According to certain frequency spectra.
        Any engine makes a huge number of sounds in those spectra that can be specifically selected.
        There are examples of anti-sniper / counter-battery countermeasures that can determine (plus / minus) the coordinates of the shooter using one shot.
        It is in symbiosis that we need to make means of detecting drones.
        1. 0
          24 September 2019 13: 26
          It is hardly possible, in principle, to hear a low-speed electric motor even from a kilometer, and a drone can fly several times higher.
    2. 0
      18 September 2019 09: 31
      Quote: Strashila
      Really a problem, from a gun to sparrows. Cost ratio goals are not comparable.

      it is necessary to compare not the cost of the goal with the cost of the method / means of destruction but
      goal cost + what it wants to destroy
      and the cost of the destruction method
      - and only so
  6. +2
    18 September 2019 07: 01
    The author has forgotten. There is such a thing - ATGM (it is clear that the drone is not a tank, but I want to convey the meaning). Cheap, small, wired or radio controlled. With automatic guidance from the optical station. With a subversive charge of 20 gr. and self-destructive. Perhaps not even with a jet engine, but with an electric motor. In short - on the minidron - kamikaze its own antidron kamikaze. You can completely brainless.
  7. +6
    18 September 2019 07: 02
    and all the assurances that our systems “take” confidently targets with an EPR of 0,1-0,3 sq. m - that’s, you know ... 10 x 10 cm a square of metal from a distance of a kilometer
    10x10 cm, probably 0,01 sq. m., no?
    1. The comment was deleted.
  8. +4
    18 September 2019 07: 08
    Derivation of air defense. Gun and machine gun, optical guidance channel. The perfect weapon against drones. Although a cartridge of 12.7 caliber seems more preferable than a rifle cartridge.
    1. 0
      18 September 2019 20: 06
      Quote: Bodypuncher
      Derivation of air defense. Gun and machine gun, optical guidance channel. The perfect weapon against drones. Although a cartridge of 12.7 caliber seems more preferable than a rifle cartridge.
      - the more hits, the better - the higher the probability of destruction
      A hit of 5-6 bullets will definitely collapse, unlike one large caliber passed through.
  9. 0
    18 September 2019 07: 09
    All attacks of drones of various sizes, designs and configurations on the Khmeinim base were successfully repulsed. The question is closed.
    1. +3
      18 September 2019 07: 16
      Nails clogged with a microscope. The question is closed
      1. +1
        18 September 2019 07: 26
        Kind! And how many "microscopes" would destroy the "nails" when they reached Khmeinim ??? Dumato is needed! There the Houthi nails have reached the oil industry - read about the losses of world business and the business of the Saudis. The nails come out gold!
        1. +2
          18 September 2019 07: 31
          Nails (UAVs) cost a penny, but there is no cheap hammer for them (against them). Even without destroying targets on AB Hmeimim, they do tremendous damage to microscopes.
          1. +2
            18 September 2019 09: 35
            Quote: Tlauicol
            Nails (UAVs) cost a penny, but there is no cheap hammer for them (against them). Even without destroying targets on AB Hmeimim, they do tremendous damage to microscopes.

            it is necessary to consider not "the cost of a nail" but "the cost of a nail and what they wanted to pierce"
            and if "the cost of a nail and what they wanted to pierce" is higher than the "cost of a microscope" - then it means to hammer such a nail with a microscope - normal
            1. +2
              7 December 2019 14: 40
              Quote: SASHA OLD
              and if "the cost of a nail and what they wanted to pierce" is higher than the "cost of a microscope" - then it means to hammer such a nail with a microscope - normal


              If you have a lot of microscopes.
              1. 0
                8 December 2019 11: 56
                Quote: Good_Anonymous
                If you have a lot of microscopes

                if "microscopes" are effective and their use is expedient, then there should be a lot of them, preferably for each "nail"
                1. +1
                  8 December 2019 14: 26
                  Quote: SASHA OLD
                  if "microscopes" are effective and their use is expedient


                  Actually, the phrase "hammering nails with a microscope" is a mockery of those who use expensive tools for other purposes - instead of cheap ones. You can, of course, dodge "our microscopes are cheap and there are a lot of them", but it looks pitiful and ridiculous.
                  1. 0
                    9 December 2019 15: 11
                    Quote: Good_Anonymous
                    Actually, the phrase "hammering nails with a microscope" is a mockery of those who use expensive tools for other purposes - instead of cheap ones. You can, of course, dodge "our microscopes are cheap and there are a lot of them", but it looks pitiful and ridiculous.

                    yes, I know what this phrase means, so I have "nails" and "microscopes" in quotes: a conventional cheap nail only by itself, but if it is used against an expensive target, then it is not a pity for a conventional "microscope", if this " a microscope is "cheaper than a nail" and a purpose combined ..
                    in general, "if the game is worth it, then it is possible and probably even necessary"
      2. +2
        18 September 2019 08: 15
        Nails clogged with a microscope. The question is closed

        Just wondering :
        The barmalei attacking Khmeimim have all kinds of drones to attack with modern filling (yeah, I see how yesterday camel driver himself creates and directs the drone), in addition to all the colors of the rainbow. But Hezbollah attacking Israel doesn’t have a single drone at all, and they didn’t make a single attack with drones, although they are also barmales. How so?
        Coincidence? I do not think ...)))
        1. +1
          18 September 2019 09: 45
          Nasrallah had Iranian drones in both Syria and Lebanon. Hezahs were actively used at the beginning of the Syrian war, until Nasrallah was driven into a bunker, and Jews regularly cleaned Iranian UAVs with dust immediately after delivery.
          Hamas still uses them in Gaza - a coincidence? Do not look for a black cat ...
          1. +6
            18 September 2019 10: 26
            Means of detecting and damaging drones exist, but they are thousands of times more expensive than drones themselves. Nevertheless, if you compare not with the price of the drone, but with the psychological and combat effect of the use of drones, then you still need to intercept - even very expensive means.
            1. +2
              18 September 2019 10: 45
              Of course you need to intercept, we are talking about how to reduce the cost and guarantee the process
              1. +3
                18 September 2019 10: 51
                3/4 of the cost is a radar system. Without reliable detection and recognition of drones, everything else is useless. Then the software should decide: what to shoot. Which remedy is the cheapest and most effective. From a machine gun to guns and rockets.
                Another option: after the radar detects the system sends an interceptor drone. He can 1) shoot 2) ram 3) dazzle electronics
                1. -1
                  21 September 2019 19: 33
                  Respected! Aren't you played with tanks? The Pantsir-C1 air defense system can easily be used against drones - nails will soon appear in service with the Russian army and one should not assume something else, ineffective.
            2. 0
              18 September 2019 20: 28
              Quote: voyaka uh
              All the same, it is necessary to intercept - even by very expensive means.

              We have already heard more than once about the successful reflection of UAV attacks by our air defense systems in Syria. At what cost was this accomplished?
      3. +1
        20 September 2019 11: 55
        It is necessary to evaluate not the cost of a downed drone, but the value of the stored property. So about nails and a microscope, an unsuccessful analogy.
        1. +1
          20 September 2019 13: 01
          And if you compare the cost of the drone and the rocket that shot it down? They may never hit the target, but at the same time cause irreparable economic damage. "Microscopes," they cost money, you know. Therefore, a cheap tool is required
    2. -3
      18 September 2019 20: 42
      Quote: LeonidL
      All attacks of drones of various sizes, designs and configurations on the Khmeinim base were successfully repulsed. The question is closed.


      Stop believing in rubbish from Konashenkov.
      The New Year’s attack is precisely the drone attack, in which 11 aircraft are damaged.
      half - under write-off.
      1. +1
        18 September 2019 21: 30
        Stop flogging nonsense on your own and invent different varieties so cute to your Svidomo heart.
        1. -3
          19 September 2019 19: 49
          Quote: LeonidL
          Stop flogging nonsense on your own and invent different varieties so cute to your Svidomo heart.

          And why all the notebooks (and corrupt ones, as they write for money, this is a fact) are patriots. all Russians who disagree with hatred. as in the training manual-began to record in the Ukrainians?
          Why did they start to call Svidomo?
          And it went exactly according to the manuals.
          I have been on this site since 2013.
          And to call those who disagree with the opinion of the idiots-Svidomo began exactly 8 months ago and at once. all goofy.
          A training manual has come?
          1. 0
            19 September 2019 22: 18
            This is your, my dear, anecdote from the category "the whole company is out of step, one sergeant in step"! Maybe it's not about most of the commentators, but about you personally? Adieu!
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. The comment was deleted.
  10. 0
    18 September 2019 07: 16
    Video and article on the topic:
    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3773711.html
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=56ii23geesk&t=0s
    1. 0
      18 September 2019 07: 30
      Duck, just yesterday, the day before yesterday, this article was on VO. Well and not quite in the subject, since this is an option for protecting equipment, not objects, the effective range is low + not a cheap radar.
      1. 0
        18 September 2019 13: 21
        I didn’t see it in VO (but that doesn’t mean that it’s not here :)), I saw it on bmpd and popmech.
        It is possible not on equipment, but stationary.
        Range - yes, you have to set more often. But, again, the range will be higher than that of ShKAS.
        Instead of the radar, you can take optics + thermal imager + rangefinder. It will be cheaper (?). For such a range should be enough.
        Well, in principle, he wrote as confirmation that the idea of ​​"ballistic" interception takes place, and is considered in all seriousness.
  11. +3
    18 September 2019 07: 23
    Well, the conclusion is this: we are waiting for a new round of development of air defense around the world. The antidronic direction is already late in its development.

    It’s all right, that it would be protected from everything and everything, on large areas from various directions, a whole complex of electronic reconnaissance means, airspace control means and naturally various air defense systems, electronic warfare systems are needed !!! Those. comprehensive protection ....
    When there is just a lot of money, you can buy anything and everything !!! But the main thing is to CORRECTLY organize the work of this all as a single, effective SYSTEM of protection against air attacks!
  12. 0
    18 September 2019 07: 33
    In general, we need an intelligent technology that allows us to reproduce the entire large-scale range of LAs. Moreover, this technology should be concentrated only in the hands of state bodies. Of course, not those who issue laws on UAV control and which are not feasible, which means they are doubly harmful. Therefore, purely from a scientific and technical approach and superiority, firstly, the elemental base should allow working with targets of any dimension and any number of aircraft in a swarm, and secondly, UAVs themselves, designed to combat UAVs, should be an order of magnitude more perfect than home-grown ones. There are prerequisites for this both in the form of ideas on electronic devices and propulsion systems to ensure a radically longer flight and speed, maneuverability and carrying capacity, and hence armament.
    1. +2
      18 September 2019 07: 55
      Yes, there’s still a problem not so much in the means of destruction (laser projectile bullet), but in the means of detection even
  13. +2
    18 September 2019 07: 43
    Poorly detectable and difficult to destroy.

    A photo from Syria suggests the opposite - three pieces were not just discovered, but found and planted, the rest were discovered and shot down. so in the case of the Saudis, it is NDO to say that they were unprepared for the attack, despite the fact that the Hussites in a month warned of impending attacks on oil storage facilities. Those. elementary time ... guild
  14. +1
    18 September 2019 07: 44
    The antidronic direction is already late in its development.
    As usual - the evolution of the shield and sword. In general, there are many proposals on this subject -
    Bard College's drone center in February 2018 presented a report on drones control systems that determined that There are over 230 systems for fighting drones from 155 manufacturers from 33 countries.

    https://russiandrone.ru/publications/zashchita-ot-bvs/
  15. +3
    18 September 2019 07: 44
    Quote: R. Skomorokhov, S. Pavlov
    Would it be?

    "... I under the entot antires I will fuse them hemp and wood,
    All publicity agrees
    Only you go against it! ... "

    Yes. Would. Our bases in Syria, in Latakia and Tartus, were repeatedly attacked by drones, allegedly artisanal production and all their attacks were successfully repulsed. Comprehensive protection only can provide reliable protection against air attacks of both mini drones and maxi super-duper "reapers" and other "invisible". Including S300, S-400.
  16. 0
    18 September 2019 08: 12
    The serious thing is that today nothing can be opposed to a small apparatus, which is poorly detected by modern means of observation, and therefore it is difficult to destroy it.

    Do you know how measles and polio won in the USSR? Talking about some effective weapon against drones without taking strict accounting measures and controlling the production of themselves and design parts is to fight in the taiga with the infamous fly swatter.
    Terrorism (armed formations with the goal of forcefully changing the political system) must be illegal throughout the world. Herds of bison were destroyed in a short time. The tour disappeared from Europe, the bison almost died out ... There was a hunt ...
    There will be a hunt - they will exterminate anyone who wants to tie a baby clapper to the drone. And against the goals themselves, they will find such ways as EW means turned on for a second will turn the electronics of the drone and itself into a piece of plastic with a set of glands.
    1. +3
      18 September 2019 16: 02
      Quote: ROSS 42
      Do you know how measles and polio won in the USSR?

      Quote: ROSS 42
      There will be a hunt - they will destroy any

      I understand destroyed distributor? :)
    2. 0
      19 September 2019 11: 46
      Quote: ROSS 42
      There will be a hunt - they will exterminate anyone who wants to tie a baby clapper to the drone.

      technology control is no longer control. Money overcomes any prohibitions and boundaries.
      And violence only feeds terrorism. Terrorism can be treated only by improving the economic situation in this territory. When people economically lose the basis and the need to participate in such events.
      Turning into global consumers and manufacturers, they lose interest in such projects and value their life!
      But economic / cultural development on our planet is uneven.
  17. 0
    18 September 2019 08: 47
    A drone can be hit in only two ways, either shoot down mechanically, or use radio equipment. The choice is small, who and what has the money and the mind, because either of the two options can consist of many sub-options. And then the relation of price and efficiency comes into play.
    1. -2
      18 September 2019 08: 56
      Quote: Ros 56
      A drone can be hit in only two ways, either shoot down mechanically, or use radio equipment.

      In unmanned aerial vehicles it is not possible to pre-lay a route of movement, the flight is influenced by natural phenomena (wind, rain, storm, etc.), therefore there is that control center, if detected, you can eliminate it or use "jammers" to disable unmanned aerial vehicles from accompaniment or technical capabilities to take over control.
      1. +1
        18 September 2019 09: 35
        No need to write stupidity, even planes do not fly into a storm, and rain and wind until a certain point do not have a serious impact. And the route is laid down in the program and is consistent with the GLONASS or GPS system and the accuracy of observing the route is worked out in large drones using a gyroscope and, in case of deviation from the route, the steering cars are worked out. This is a very serious equipment and therefore is so expensive. Although you are right, on serious drones there is an opportunity to switch to manual control. They would have served in model aircraft troops, and would have learned a lot of interesting things. soldier lol
  18. 0
    18 September 2019 08: 55
    If you don’t know anything - ask, and don’t write any crap like "neat holes in oil tanks from being hit by UAVs."

    Saudi targets were attacked by Iranian copies of the Soviet Kh-55, and not the crafts based on the chainsaw and the Aurduinka described in the article.

    And yes - "no analogs" shock drones of slippers in packs get knocked down on the approaches to Khmeimim with the help of the Pantsir-M air defense system, included in the air defense object detachment together with the air defense system-300/400, suddenly.
    1. +4
      18 September 2019 10: 32
      about neat holes really

      1. 0
        18 September 2019 21: 47
        Quote: prodi
        about neat holes really

        Judging by the holes, they attacked the object from the south and not the north at all, as the Americans are now shouting.
        1. 0
          3 October 2019 11: 55
          Did you decide this judging by the habit that the south is from below? And if the plane took pictures from the north? or from the west?
          1. +1
            3 October 2019 22: 02
            Quote: tpokorp
            Did you decide this judging by the habit that the south is from below?

            Actually in the pictures the arrow is where the north is. And she shows not down and left-up.
  19. +3
    18 September 2019 10: 10
    It's simple, we drag the eagles and falcons onto the UAVs, plant a couple of Kyrgyz horse-drawn cone hunters, they go back and forth with the eagle in their hands, as soon as the enemy appears, the loyal Altynbek immediately lowers the bird and the khan drona. In Moscow, in Kolomenskoye there is a falconry yard, so they need to be in Khmeinim, otherwise they ate there, you can kill a pig on the forehead. Here they are immediately with gyrfalcons to Syria. The enemy will not pass. I thought of attracting hunters with shotguns, but so much vodka the budget of the Moscow Region will not pull.
  20. +1
    18 September 2019 10: 11
    "Yes, a 30-mm projectile is completely unsuitable here. Too large. Ammunition load is too small" ///
    ----
    The gun is not to blame. The Carapace has an imperfect radar. Which does not distinguish between slowly flying small targets.
    It seems that after the failures in Syria, the radar software improved. But the radar itself, in my opinion, was not replaced. And it would be necessary.
    1. +1
      18 September 2019 21: 51
      Quote: voyaka uh
      The gun is not to blame. The Carapace has an imperfect radar.

      Fact. Claims to the Shell appeared precisely after meetings with drones. At the same time, they confirmed the high efficiency of Thor.
    2. 0
      21 September 2019 19: 50
      Respected! The "Pantsir-C1" has a very effective radar and the Russian army is armed with the Pantsir-C2. You are absolutely writing unverified facts and always. Israel does not have such a complex.
  21. 0
    18 September 2019 10: 22
    Is a directional EM pulse burning out all the electronics of the birdie? Or do they still not know how?
    But still, the problem of detection remains.
    "Hang" something over the protected objects? Against the background of the earth, it will probably be possible to "see" the drone. Well, and EMP from him to detect, completely without electronics, he can not in any way. The exhaust from the internal combustion engine again ...
    1. 0
      18 September 2019 16: 08
      Quote: VicktorVR
      Is a directional EM pulse burning out all the electronics of the birdie? Or do they still not know how?

      Well, apparently you are from science fiction novels and you can not tell them something like that. How is life in 2152?
      1. 0
        19 September 2019 14: 57
        Any radar is essentially a directional EM emitter. Even any directional transmitter antenna, even WI-FI. There was even a kind of electric "drone" that was powered by directional radiation.
        Even 15 years ago, one head of the department boasted to us that they had developed and assembled a device that gave out a short-term 1MW. But undirected of course ...
        1. 0
          19 September 2019 21: 02
          There are EM ammunition, quite compact. But before shooting at drones, I don’t know, like they wanted to use them against missiles with nuclear charges.
  22. +1
    18 September 2019 10: 48
    I recall the dialogue from "Lie to Me": "It was necessary to invest not in a polygraph, but in reading in the face."
    This is what I mean: how advanced are the means of acoustic control of aircraft at the moment? Yes, with the advent of jet aircraft, PUAZO lost ground. And in modern realities there appeared "drachepots" with a motor from a lawn mower, which no one will equip with a normal muffler, there is more important a resonator tube for a two-stroke, and therefore holes are loud enough and characteristic. And what is the guarantee that the development of these drones will not return to the V-1 level? It took off, flew, blurted out, exploded. There is nothing to jam - a complete primitive by today's standards, and you can't pick up an airplane wing - the dimensions are not the same.
  23. +4
    18 September 2019 10: 56
    Quote: CruorVult
    Um, ShKAS? What for lasers, what for landmines with remote detonation, will we hammer from a machine gun? As for the characteristics of the radars, the article has very few figures.

    By the way, the Americans have an air defense system, which, in principle, is suitable for combating UAVs. This is Avenger. Based on the EMNIP "Hamvey" chassis, 2 containers of 4 MANPADS in a container, a radar and a large-caliber machine gun.
    In principle, you can take as a basis when developing such an air defense system
    1. +2
      18 September 2019 11: 32
      Quote: Old26
      By the way, the Americans have an air defense system, which, in principle, is suitable for combating UAVs. This is Avenger.
      As I understand it, the Saudis also have four hundred and four of these same Avengers. It didn't help them very much ...
    2. 0
      18 September 2019 13: 48
      Sorry, but why did you get the idea that it is suitable?
      1. It was not designed for this.
      2. The article just raises the issue of radar efficiency.
      3. Armament. Machine gun and Stinger missiles with IR seeker will not be effective against small drones.
      4. The "Avenger" has an operator.

      Incidentally, the new "Avenger" was rolled out, but there are still doubts about its effectiveness against drones.

      There is no simple solution, especially for strategic sites.
  24. +2
    18 September 2019 11: 08
    just what I noticed
    1 Both the American complex and the Russian complex in our case will have one problem: they will work equally poorly for small, low-flying targets.
    Not the same. Just for the purposes at the criminally-small heights, the Patriot has worse opportunities. No need to combine a hedgehog and a snake - OVTs and SPN radars.
    2. The best example of this is plastic airplanes, which terrorists bombard everyone they can reach, including ours in Syria.
    And what do these crafts, made by the dendrofecal method, have to do with the X-55 rocket (the Saudans did it with a clone)? These aircraft, by definition, can have neither an acceptable range, nor a normal warhead, nor a guidance system. And even if they add, then they will not be so small.
    3. UAV, which is on the route using the inertial reporting system.
    And how much will this UAV demolish if you fly at a meager speed you need not 10-20, but hundreds of kilometers?
    4. A radar capable of detecting small and low-speed targets at a distance of over a kilometer, unfortunately, exists so far only in words or paper.
    Yah ? to tell, at what ranges did the Wasp SOC radar detect the birds? From practical experience it is known that such "flying machines" as gulls were detected at a distance of up to 8 km (and the SSTS accompanied them), an eagle up to 12 km, a pelican -20 km, and a flock of ducks up to 45 km
    5. Alas, guns are almost useless here. Watched more than once what it looks like. Too big shell for such a purpose, too few of them
    And it is already necessary to watch - what, where, when. Even 2 identical AUs on Tunguska and Shell are far from the same thing. However, shells with timers will come (for a 30mm caliber they have already been created) and will equalize the chances.
    1. 0
      18 September 2019 11: 40
      this is because eagles and pelicans are not disguised. the base of the UAV, covered with a transparent dacron film, with opaque elements painted in camouflage colors, based on an electric drive with thermal insulation and dissipating heat sink, will be much more difficult to detect than a pelican.
      what day what night
      1. 0
        18 September 2019 11: 48
        Well, such crafts on what level are?

        1. 0
          18 September 2019 11: 52
          their creators did not think about counteracting optical guidance; otherwise, they painted a grayish-blue color at least from the spray can.
          but it won’t last forever.
          reach this thought
      2. 0
        18 September 2019 11: 52
        Well, of course, they have nothing radio-reflective. smile Especially when it’s not about micro UAVs weighing in kg, but about something more serious
        1. 0
          18 September 2019 14: 27
          so they are not like I wrote.
    2. 0
      18 September 2019 13: 54
      It's like that. Won China, in general, took our AK-76, put it and put it on the trailer, such a projectile can be thrown at 10+ km, if you deal with detection and identification.
    3. 0
      18 September 2019 16: 01
      Quote: sivuch
      5. Alas, guns are almost useless here. Watched more than once what it looks like. Too big shell for such a purpose, too few of them

      The most important thing is to accompany such a target, at least with a laser, in order to know its exact coordinates in space, and then the projectile flight speed, target height - the speed of the target, the possibility of maneuvering it.
      You can use a shell with remote detonation, with striking elements. The heights are very wide, just do not have to hit. Below you wrote about it yourself, I just wanted to clarify.
      A means of fighting drones should combine the most modern equipment for detecting a target and its tracking and the cheapest option for its destruction. Massive, reliable.
  25. +5
    18 September 2019 11: 10
    so that it would be understandable how easy it is to make sufficiently accurate inertial control for a one-time UAV based on Arduino, which a schoolchild can program, especially since there are ready-made libraries of programs and subprograms.

    From top to bottom, left is the basic Arduino, an altimeter, a digital compass, a three-coordinate gyroscope and steering machines for steering wheels with a control unit.
    All together, about 100 grams, priced at $ 30, depending on the manufacturer, the size of a pack of other cigarettes.
    Well, a jeepies receiver with functions for determining the height and position \

    It will turn out a control unit with triple redundancy - inertial with a gyroscope and accelerometer, by compass with an altimeter and by jeep navigation.
    and it's all kind of like children's toys, and you can’t forbid
    just imagine what awaits us in the foreseeable future, and what you need to be prepared for. hi
  26. 0
    18 September 2019 11: 24
    Against small drones, the most effective remedy available is Chrysanthemum plus the Zoo.
    1. +2
      19 September 2019 11: 51
      Quote: Tektor
      Against small drones, the most effective remedy available is Chrysanthemum plus the Zoo.

      this is no longer a "microscope", it is a whole "Hubble" for nails.
  27. +1
    18 September 2019 12: 16
    You just need to start sharing the problem.
    And the problem consists of two parts:
    1. Actually detection
    2. Neutralization (just like that. It is not necessary to shoot down, it is necessary to prevent an attack on a specific object)

    Plus it all depends on the type of object - stationary or not.

    For a stationary object, everything is simpler.
    There are two ways - traditional radar and non-traditional. For example, radars operating in the light.
    Yes, and traditional radars are able to work out UAVs normally. It is more important to create a continuous radar field at all heights.
    Plus, the integration of all UAV clearance systems.
    For mobile - only traditional radars work.

    As for the disposal, then the question is price.
    Therefore, there is either small arms (machine gun / gun) or electronic warfare.

    If we talk about electronic warfare, the problem is that you won’t turn on the electronic warfare all the time (it will mostly interfere with yourself). And so the inclusion of signal suppression or changing GPS signals, blocking frequencies with interference, control interception and brain burning.
    In principle, even now it is possible to create a zone with a radius of 2-3 km, where GPS and communications will not work. And taking into account the fact that most home-made drones have the basis of the GPS guidance system, the loss of signal will result in the loss of at least the accuracy of the guidance, which will either reduce the damage or not at all.

    All this is real right now (which ours is demonstrated in Syria).

    As for the shooting, here and now the Tunguska can help with a single Central Administration.

    But in principle, it is necessary to create new robotic complexes for the protection of perimeter defense objects. Such complexes should reflect both a ground attack and air attacks.
    Armament - machine guns and small-caliber guns.
    TsU according to the central radar (or TsKP).

    Well, for a snack.
    Any air defense system depends on the people who service it. And this is the main thing.
    1. +1
      18 September 2019 13: 59
      Of course, threat detection comes first! The next "item" should be "physical elimination of threats"! (All sorts of "newfangled" electronic warfare can (should) be, but on the "dance"!). "Specific" features of UAVs also require the use of specific weapons to combat them! It can also be guided missiles; but, again, "specific" (!): like the MNTK, "anti-aircraft nails" to the "Shell ... similar missiles and" small "MLRS that Tekhmash promised to develop! and "thermobaric" ...) such as those that NATO worked on at the end of the last century, for example, France ... These can be used removed from service, which are in storage warehouses of the Strela-2 / 2M MANPADS after replacing IK.GOS with semi-active laser seeker ... you can "reincarnate" balloon barriers in a "new way" .... for example, with the help of "tethered" copters with power supply and telemetry via a cable-cable .. engineering ammunition for "motives" of anti-helicopter mines. And, of course, the combined use of the listed means ...
  28. 0
    18 September 2019 13: 34
    Quote: TechnoID
    According to data from cheap ultrasonic sensors and lidars, UAVs may well fly on autopilot at altitudes less than 10 m with a relief envelope. So all kinds of air defense are ineffective or expensive here. It is enough to simply surround the guarded object at a certain distance and from all sides with several layers of the usual finely woven net - rowanberry. Previously, fenders from it were popular among summer residents ...

    ///////////////////////////////////////////////
    You can use balloons with radar on board to detect small, low-flying targets on board: https://army-news.ru/2019/04/obespechenie-raboty-zrk-po-nizkoletyashhim-celyam-bez-privlecheniya-aviacii-vks/
    To defeat small targets, you need to create appropriate ammunition, for example shells, which, when exploded, create a cloud of conductive dust that removes the electrical part or cloud containing the necessary inhibitor - if it enters the air intake of a gasoline or kerosene engine, the latter stalls ...
  29. 0
    18 September 2019 13: 41
    By the way, the difference between the Patriot and the S-300 / S-400 is significant.
    The fact is that Patriot missiles are trying to hit the target precisely, and in our air defense missiles, the missiles form a cone of striking elements and explode at the moment of the greatest probability of destruction. And the dimensions of this cone are quite large (of the order of several tens of meters in depth). hence the high probability of knocking down UAVs (artisanal is not much).

    Plus, we have a more powerful explosive charge (it is stupidly more), i.e. even without damaging elements, a makeshift UAV will be difficult to survive.
  30. +1
    18 September 2019 14: 00
    ... the device, conditionally not using satellite navigation, will be able to fly from point A to point B. From memory. At point B, serious things begin. The navigation system is turned on, the device produces accurate guidance, and then attacks the target. How long does it take? Little. But up to this point, UAVs can be tried to suppress as much as necessary ...

    This is done a little easier, has been worked out for a long time and is called "remote aiming point" (remote reference point, auxiliary aiming point - there are many variants of the name). That is, when the coordinates of not the target itself are put into the control system, but a certain reference point taken out of it and an algorithm for calculating the coordinates of the target after reaching this reference point by the ammunition (drone, ammunition carrier, etc.). It can be primitively described as "fly to that snag, then a hundred steps to the north and Bahai". At the same time, several tasks are solved at once, including: the possibility of using a GPS signal before entering the zone of operation of electronic warfare systems, then autonomous homing without using external communication channels that are susceptible to damage by electronic warfare means, reducing the standard deviation of the point of impact of the ammunition due to the" short "the section from the remote aiming point to the real target (the influence of errors of primitive sensors on the deviation of the calculated target coordinates from the true ones decreases), etc.
  31. +1
    18 September 2019 15: 23
    If we decided what to blame, then - do not laugh - ShKAS! Well, or something like that. Spark MG-34 or MG-42, but better ShKAS.


    + an expensive system for detecting and pointing machine guns at drones / drones.
  32. +1
    18 September 2019 15: 48
    using the Rapsberry Pi controller

    I hope otherwise the author at least understands what he writes.
    1. +1
      18 September 2019 19: 00
      Quote: Roman Skomorokhov, Sergey Pavlov
      If we decided what to blame, then - do not laugh - ShKAS!

      I read this far ... rolled my eyes and thought, "Why, in fact, is not a quadruple Maxim?" Bullet ballistics is quite good for itself ... and he himself is good .. and in warehouses ... and you will find ShKAS figs ..
      P / S I think they found the specialist from the research institute on the next sofa ... wassat With a book in hand about the heroes of I-16 in Spain in 37 ...
      1. +2
        18 September 2019 21: 10
        We have a full specialist sofa
  33. +1
    18 September 2019 18: 32
    I have always been tormented by this question - is the spaceport somewhat protected from such kamikaze drones? After all, a missile is an ideal target - a large, tall, lonely, high-contrast in the IR range due to the oxidizing agent (we do not take the outgoing Proton into account). In addition, a significant part of launches occurs at night, when it is impossible to see an airplane flying 100 meters above the ground.

    Approaches to spaceports are known, satellite imagery is available.
    In fact, the question remains with autopilot and GPS positioning. But is GPS jamming there? At least in the Union and the Angara there are satellite navigation antennas, which are designed just for positioning on GLONASS / GPS. And they work even before the start. That is, at least an hour or half an hour before the CP, the signal is not muffled.

    That is, you need to fly to the launch vehicle in this, not particularly narrow period of time - and that’s all. A broken tank with an oxidizing agent will find its spark, anything will catch fire in oxygen.

    Or am I missing something?
  34. 0
    18 September 2019 18: 41

    Previously, the US Marine Corps was already testing a glider from Logistics Gliders. Then the developers said that the LG-1000 model is capable of delivering goods at a distance of up to 120 km. The main feature of the novelty is its simplicity and cheapness. The glider is a plywood box with wings, inside which is placed the load and the simplest electronic system that controls the operation of the flaps and tail. The prototype was estimated at only $ 600 (three times cheaper than a set of transport parachutes), while the LG-1000 is capable of carrying up to 1 ton of cargo.
    1. 0
      18 September 2019 21: 02
      So KK showed a microwave gun for extinguishing drones. The directed stream of microwave radiation burns out all the electronics. It is much more efficient than a machine gun, and safer for others, since machine gun bullets will fly across an area of ​​6 km (three km per side) and easily kill personnel (the refinery is probably quite a populated area)
  35. +2
    18 September 2019 21: 07
    Dear authors, thank you very much for the material: the topic is relevant and little known.
    I have a question: there are often reports in the media that the Barmaley attacked Khmeinin with the help of Drones and the attack was repulsed, but it turns out that the Shell is effective?
    And one more thing: why exactly ShKAS or MG'-42, probably, there are more modern machine guns?
  36. 0
    18 September 2019 21: 17
    And the most unpleasant thing is that this structure is almost invisible to radars. And if it flies at an altitude of 50-100 meters, and with the envelope of the landscape, everything is sad for air defense in general.

    Maybe at an altitude of 1 meter with enveloping the landscape at a speed of 0,01 km / h to 200 km / h. In this case, an aurdinki will be needed more seriously, plus some sort of shitty altimeter or govnoradar.
    It was thought by someone that in order for such a rocket to be able to take off, go along the route in accordance with the terrain based on GPS data and just dive onto the target, you need 486 processor power, 16 MB of RAM and 1 GB of memory on your hard drive.

    Well, that's about everything. Read about persings, in those days supercomputers were an order of magnitude weaker, and in a "dumb" warhead there is already a map of the area, a recognition algorithm ...
    To prevent this, "Rosehip-AERO" creates a false navigation field (time to create - several minutes)

    I guess that is not the case. Just stupidly replaces the data of navigation systems, less than a second is enough.
    Now smart people will say: who will write the program to these masturbation workers? Our answer will be this: since gentlemen, money from terrorist organizations and countries of the Middle East, to put it mildly, do not need money, then there is someone to write the program for. For a suitcase "greens" - there.

    There isn’t much to write there, 5min of writings for a junior, but if you are really lazy, everything lies in the assortment on the github.
    If we were assigned to protect tanks with oil from drones, then we see this option: first solve the detection problem.

    Yes, solved a long time ago. For beggars, we present the super duper secret, the latest development - the Mentec radar! laughing But the local population will not be happy about the wunderwaffle, it will not be happy and there will not be tilyuvizira laughing
    If we decided what to blame, then - do not laugh - ShKAS!

    I agree, it’s only laborious, it takes aim, puffing with it ... If we discard the pi-piu laser options, I remember about 5 years ago an article about an Australian machine gun with a rate of 1 million shots per second. They wanted to protect the tank. He has the principle of operation like a cluster munition, that is, many tubes are collected in a cartridge, in cartridges the ammunition is simultaneously fired, and a cloud of bullets is obtained. The rate of fire can be increased to infinity, after a shot the cartridge automatically shoots back and a new one is in its place.

    PS: In general, the best solution for protecting stationary objects from such drones is a network. Stupidly shield the object. Cheap, efficient and always working wink
  37. 0
    18 September 2019 23: 04
    Optoelectronic target tracking. And as an early detection, a noise finder with an electronic software screener for extraneous noise. If there are two posts, it will determine the position of the target, and only a couple of gifts from the ZSU gun.
    ps these are so thoughts in my amateurish opinion.
  38. +1
    18 September 2019 23: 13
    For once, a good article. Without too much urapatriotism.
    That's right. Moreover, if a massive attack from the desert from several directions, then no chance even if they notice. Just do not have time. Soon, in Syria, primitive aircraft will grow to such cruise missiles flying fast and low with envelope relief.
    1. 0
      20 September 2019 05: 02
      Quite rightly said. Our institutions, designed to track military trends, were carried away by super long range, large-scale and, in fact, missed a technological breakthrough in the development of mini-flying equipment. But ordinary experts decades ago warned about this on the pages of the respective forums. The penny price, easily assembled drones, allow you to make massive attacks on any objects and no existing air defense can protect from the attack of a low-flying swarm of hundreds and even thousands of drones. Most likely we will see such examples ...
  39. 0
    18 September 2019 23: 49
    The Saudi Arabian Ministry of Defense showed the remains of "drones" that attacked the local oil industry


    Yemeni "drones" are the most unmanned drones laughing
    1. 0
      19 September 2019 03: 08
      There are still pictures, and they have drones. Google ask.
  40. +1
    19 September 2019 01: 14
    Novel, with all due respect to you, do not dare to comment on something that you do not have the slightest idea, sorry, again, I'm sorry ... hi
    Z.Y. I can insert the file, but basically I don’t want to - a reflection of the attack on Khmeimim, although I don’t particularly like KBP - competitors, nevertheless there are no questions for them))
  41. +2
    19 September 2019 07: 16
    So the principle of the good old posts of VNOS may well work.

    Well, yes, you only need to use millimeter-wave radars - they work well for small EPR targets, and are lighter and smaller than the centimeter-range radars.
    From the means of destruction at the approaches to the protected objects - it is possible to use a fighter UAV armed with NAR with shrapnel warheads.
    1. -1
      21 September 2019 19: 41
      Respected! You need to read about the basic equation of radar and everything will become clear about the radar millimeter range. And do not forget to read about precipitation - the distribution range does not tolerate hasty conclusions.
  42. +2
    19 September 2019 20: 28
    To understand how to deal with drones, you need to look at duck hunters. Against very small ones, distribute to sentries "Vepri" (let them stand under the fungus, in which case they will not take it for long), or Benelli, if there is nowhere to put the money, with large shot or buckshot. To combat more serious drones, one should turn to the experience of World War II: to revive anti-aircraft guns, and not 2-30 mm, but of a normal caliber (57-100 mm), since a small caliber projectile should explode too close to the target, and this requires expensive and effective guidance systems. And so - banged, and ready. And the projectiles are the simplest, a modified radio fuse (information about the detonation is received not from the signal reflected from the target, since the target is complex, but from the signal to move away from the weapon) and that's it, no tricky fragmentation fields. You should not rely on electronic warfare, IMHO: they will be protected from it in the first place and, perhaps, not unsuccessfully, and they will definitely not be booking "models". The main problem is detection, and detection in bad weather and at night is extremely important (risking a drone is not a question at all). I would start trying to solve the issue with the help of AI (well, and show the attendant the same thing, but it will be hard for a person to stare at the empty sky for a long time - the eye will be blurred), receiving information from several points from multichannel optical systems. Radar - if only the cheapest, civil (like those that are put on yachts).
  43. 0
    24 September 2019 07: 30
    Thinking about machine guns is good. After Rust, an easel DShK (12,7 mm) was sent to our division after Rust. How to detect them at night is unclear. They, as I understand it, do not have a jet stream.
  44. +1
    7 December 2019 14: 51
    Machine guns on towers and AWACS drones (not RL, probably, but optics, IR, UV, but not the point).