Traitors from around the world. Foreigners in the German Wehrmacht and SS troops

347
"Who is between the living, that there is still hope, since the living dog is better than a dead lion."
Ecclesiastes 9: 4


Collaborationism during the Second World War. They say that the commissioner is a state of mind. And yes, one can probably agree with this statement. But if so, then another statement will probably be correct, that the fascist is also a state of mind, only with a minus sign. That is, someone follows the idea, but there are also those who choose the “dark side of power” for completely different reasons. This is cowardice, and mercantilism, and immoralism. In any case, all these spiritual qualities are not the most pleasant in the list of properties of a human person. However, they are. To one degree or another, they have ... everyone. But someone may be higher than the baser in his soul, and someone goes on about these qualities. And someone has a low threshold for pain sensitivity, so if he pushes pointed matches under his nails, he will agree to everything. Although there are those like Tommaso Campanella, whom 48 hours was tortured to torture with "velo" ("wakefulness"), that is, they did not let him sleep, periodically putting him on a stake. It is clear that sitting on a Coke does not sleep, and indeed there is not much pleasant in it. The torture was stopped only when the doctor said that another half an hour and he would die. But the most important thing is that Campanella never admitted anything and proved, as he himself wrote about it, "that his spirit is free." But again, this is an exception.



Traitors from around the world. Foreigners in the German Wehrmacht and SS troops

Soldiers of the French SS volunteer regiment (Franzosisches SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Regiment) at a Paris train station say goodbye to their relatives before leaving for the Eastern Front


What is collaboration? TSB is responsible


So when it comes to foreign citizens who fought in the Nazi army during the Second World War, we must remember that there were many reasons why they did this. But for us now it’s important not to delve into all these reasons, but simply to see who, except for persons of German nationality, fought at that time on the side of the German army with weapons in hand. Not so long ago, an interesting article by A. Samsonov on Polish and Jewish collaborators was published on the pages of VO. Today we continue and develop this topic.


American Mildred Gillars. During the war, she broadcast on the Reichsradio. She performed on the radio until May 1945. Arrested on 15 on March 1946 of the year by US intelligence agencies. Received 10 years in prison for treason


To begin with, the topic of the participation of Soviet and foreign citizens in the Second World War as part of the German army and SS troops in the West is devoted to an extensive historiography, they did not make any fake secrets from it, as, say, we had before 1991. According to academician A.O. Chubaryan, “this problem in Soviet historiography was completely ignored,” because “it was based on the idea that the number of traitors to the Motherland was extremely small” (AO Chubaryan stories war // World War II. Actual problems: To the 50 anniversary of the Victory / Ed. O.A. Rzheshevsky. M., 1995. C.11). Therefore, the essence of such a phenomenon as the various types of cooperation of a certain part of Soviet citizens with Germany in domestic historical literature has not received a proper deep scientific interpretation. It is interesting that these very concepts (“collaborationism” and “collaborationists”) are not found at all in the reference literature of the pre-war period. There is no decoding and explanation of what it is, even in such authoritative publications as the Brockhaus and Efron Encyclopedic Dictionary and the Pomegranate Brothers Encyclopedic Dictionary. This, however, did not mean that in the lexicon of European languages ​​there was no such word and concept at all. It was, of course, but ... it was used extremely rarely.


And here is another “ideological collaborator”: William Joyce, a radio commentator on German radio in English, “Lord How-How” (“Lord Woof-Woof”), as his name was English. Irish by birth, had a diploma from the University of London, founder of the National Socialist League in England. Since August 1939, he was engaged in Nazi propaganda on the radio, while in Germany. Arrested in May 1945 and sentenced to death for treason. Hanged in 1946


In post-war Soviet reference books such as the Great Soviet Encyclopedia, the term "collaborators" has already appeared and was interpreted as: "persons who collaborated with fascist invaders in the countries they occupied during the Second World War 1939-1945." A practically similar explanation of this term was given in "Soviet Encyclopedic Dictionary." Nevertheless, there have been practically no studies on this topic. The concept of “brotherhood of the Soviet peoples” did not allow us to write about all the negative aspects of our common history, and research on this topic was seen as propaganda of nationalism and chauvinism. It is not surprising that they began to investigate the topic of cooperation between Soviet citizens and the enemy only after the collapse of the USSR.


Today we can read such books ...


The Union of Nordic Germans


But Western historians were not connected by ideological frameworks. Moreover, they were especially interested in the participation of "non-Germans" in the SS troops - the elite of the "German nation". After all, the leaders of the Reich have repeatedly stated that "the SS organization is an alliance of specially selected Nordic Germans ...". It was with these words that, for example, the order of Reichsfuhrer SS Himmler of 31 of December 1931 began, according to which a special marriage permit was introduced for all SS men "with the aim of selecting and preserving racial and hereditary pure blood."


Despite the fact that in these publications much attention is paid to uniforms and insignia, they generally represent a good source of information on this topic.


Here, first of all, it should be noted that initially both soldiers, and even more so SS officers, as well as their wives, had to undergo a complex procedure of "racial selection", and in the "special forces of the SS", which appeared already in 1934, and became the prototype of the "SS troops", the selection was even tougher. However, already in June 1944, the number of foreigners in the Wehrmacht and in the SS troops reached 486,6 thousand people, and in all during the war there were at least 1,8 million people. 59 divisions, 23 brigades were formed from foreigners of non-Aryan origin, and besides this, several separate regiments, several special legions and battalions.


But, of course, for truly complete information you need to turn to dissertation research. In principle, all of them are now available: you pay 500 p. and you get the full text of the dissertation on the Internet with all references to sources and the corresponding bibliography on the topic.


The gap between word and deed!


It turns out that it was in the SS troops that foreigners were accepted very willingly! Thus, 12 of the 43 SS divisions were manned by “volunteers of German nationality” from the countries of Northern and Western Europe, that is, not purebred Aryans, but half-blood Germans (and this is very softly said that half-bloods, in many and a quarter of Germanic there was no blood), and even the whole 15 divisions were equipped with “volunteers” of generally non-German nationality who were recruited throughout Europe, and not all of them always went there voluntarily.

How could this happen so that in the elite forces of Nazi Germany there were so many people of "non-German", or even "non-Aryan" origin, previously proclaimed by people of the "lower race"? Slavs, French, Hungarians, Romanians, Albanians, and even people from the mountains of the Caucasus and the "solar republics" of Central Asia - who just did not serve in the SS troops! Why did this happen?


A typical Aryan, right? Portrait of a voluntary assistant to the Wehrmacht - Heavi (Hilfswilliger) with a machine gun MG-34


To begin with, we recall that back in 1940, Gauleiter Essen Terboven, the Reich commissioner of Norway occupied by Germany, said that the Scandinavians are much easier to unite with the Germans than, for example, the same Prussia with Bavaria, that is, northern Germans with southern ones. Norwegians are the same Aryans, he argued (and even more than even some of the Germans, if you mean the same Bavarians), and, if so, then the Norwegians may well become full citizens of the Third Reich. He had the same opinion about the Danes, the inhabitants of the Netherlands, Luxembourg and the Belgians. These were people of "German blood." And if so, then they could consider themselves citizens of Great Germany. Although it may well be that there was no talk of complete equal rights.

Reichsfuhrer SS Himmler held the same opinion. So, in September 1940, on his initiative, the "General SS detachments of Flanders" were created. Two years later, the Netherlands SS also. Well, in May 1941, the Norwegian SS. It seems that they were under the jurisdiction of their pro-fascist leaders. But already in the autumn of 1942, they became part of the organization of the "German SS detachments." And ... were renamed “German SS in Flanders”, “German SS in the Netherlands” and “German SS in Norway”. That is, the German "beginning" came out on top. National - to the second. In April 1943, the Danish “German Corps” (“Schalburg Corps”) was established. The number of all these units amounted to almost 9 thousand people. They were engaged in helping the local police fight the partisans and anti-fascists.


Build a soldier of the Caucasian auxiliary troops of the Wehrmacht


Burgundy - SS State


It is interesting that Reichsführer SS Himmler had plans to create a new German state, Burgundy, in northern Europe, which would include the lands of the Netherlands, Belgium and North-East France. Moreover, all political and state administration were to carry out SS forces here on the basis of their SS code. At the same time, the idea was to unite all the "Nordic blood" in Europe, and to make it so that "never again did the Germans fight against the Germans."


Indian Legion SS "Free India"


Well, in the Reich itself, after the outbreak of war, selection in the SS immediately became significantly less stringent than before. Absolutely non-German surnames, and for some reason, most often Slavic ones, were strewn in the lists of SS formations. For example, in the list of executioners of the Auschwitz concentration camp, such surnames were about 15 – 20%. They ceased to worry about the leaders of the Reich and the SS and the external data of future functionaries. The SS motto: “Your honor is your loyalty” is the only thing the Reichsführer SS required of them.


What a handsome man! Free India Legion Officer


"All the flags of the world to visit us!"


Further more. Although Hitler, in his book Mein Kampf, strongly condemned the French for "spoiling" pure European blood with the blood of blacks and Asians, nevertheless, in the spring of 1944, posters depicting a German soldier in a helmet appeared in many French cities, who demandingly pointed a finger at the person looking at the poster, and with the inscription: "Enroll in the SS troops!" Moreover, these recruiting posters were hung not only in France, but also in other European countries occupied by German troops. And it is clear that for those who had problems with the law, this was a good way to avoid them. Enrolled in the SS and ... "all bribes, smooth." Well, something similar to the situation with the same French Foreign Legion. I got there, and he will save you from prison and from the bag. It’s another matter that then “freedom” had to be practiced with arms in hand, but if someone broke the law, then out of two evils such people had to choose the least, and for many of them the “least” way seemed to be the path of collaboration they chose.

Использованная литература:
1. Drobyazko, S., Karashchuk, A. Eastern volunteers in the Wehrmacht, police and SS. M .: AST, 2000.
2. Kovalev, B. Nazi occupation and collaboration in Russia. 1941-1944. M .: AST, Transitbook, 2004.
3. Carlos Caballero Jurado. Foreign volunteers in the Wehrmacht. 1941-1945. M .: AST, Astrel, 2005.
4. Shabelnik, N. On the Question of Soviet Collaborationism during the Great Patriotic War / Transactions of the Military Space Academy named after A.F. Mozhaysky. Publisher: Military Space Academy named after AF Mozhaysky (St. Petersburg)
5. Gilyazov, I. A. Collaboration movement among Turkic-Muslim prisoners of war and emigrants during the Second World War. Dis. ... dr. Sciences: 07.00.02 Kazan, 2000.
6. Ermolov, I.G. The emergence and development of Soviet military-political collaboration in the occupied territories of the USSR in 1941-1944. Dis. ... ist. Sciences: 07.00.02 Tver, 2005.
7. Shantseva, E. N. Genesis of the partisan movement and collaboration in the Great Patriotic War: the example of the occupied territory of the Bryansk region: August 1941 - September 1943 Dis. ... ist. Sciences: 07.00.02 Bryansk, 2011.
8. Napso, N.T. Eastern legions in the Wehrmacht during the Great Patriotic War 1941 - 1945 Dis. ... to-ist. Sciences: 07.00.02 Maykop, 2000.


To be continued ...
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  1. +11
    21 September 2019 05: 48
    Good article. But the SS units were not elite in terms of hostilities. The Wehrmacht's army units fought much better, although they began to arm themselves on the residual principle after the SS at the final stage of the war. They did not light up from the same opera as the wunderwaffe.
    1. +20
      21 September 2019 06: 19
      Quote: Siberia
      But the SS units were not elite in terms of hostilities. Wehrmacht army units fought much better

      There were many elite ones: for example, Dead Head, Reich, Hitler Youth, 1st Panzer Division of the SS “Leibstandart SS Adolf Hitler”, etc.

      The Danes, the French from "Charlemagne", the Dutch, the Norwegians fought well.

      But SS type Galicia, these yes, scattered like cockroaches ...
      1. +12
        21 September 2019 07: 20
        I welcome you to Andrey! * Ss like Galicia * can be safely attributed to the usual * National Bats *.
        1. +18
          21 September 2019 07: 30
          By the way, the same French Charlemagne was the last trump card of Nazi Germany during the defense of Berlin!
          Regards, Vlad!
          1. +7
            21 September 2019 08: 28
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            French Charlemagne was Germany’s last trump card during the defense of Berlin!

            Moreover, during the defense of the Reichstag
        2. 0
          21 September 2019 11: 43
          Quote: Phil77
          SS type Galicia * can be safely attributed to the usual * National Bats *.

          Everything went back to normal.
      2. +20
        21 September 2019 07: 31
        The 42-year-old elite “Dead Head” near Novgorod was almost completely destroyed and sent back to France for reorganization. After the attack on the USSR and the failed blitzkrieg, the German generals were well aware that the war was lost and, no matter who they put into battle, everything in Russia troops including the elite quickly grind.
      3. +17
        21 September 2019 07: 39
        But do not forget about the significant difference between parts of the SS and parts of the Waffen-SS.
        In this case, they write about the Waffen-SS, which were a hodgepodge of a team of collaborators and nationals like the Baltic, Norwegians, Danes and other bastards.
        Certainly, the soldiers from Galicia would not have been allowed to guard the residence of Adolf Aloizovich, in contrast to the life standard "Adolf Hitler".
        In combat terms, all SSs were weaker than the Wehrmacht, but the Waffen SSs were the weakest.
        But Auschwitz to guard (Dead Head), to overtake prisoners, Khatyn to burn from them turned out perfectly.
        By the way, about "SS officers".
        In the SS organization there were no concepts of "officer, private, chief".
        The entire system was built, oddly enough, according to the structure of the Red Army at the end of the 20s, where there were no officers and where everyone was "comrades".
        In the SS system, everything from top to bottom was)))) partigenigenoss, which migrated to the troops.
        But since in the combat units the ranks were double, such as the SS Hauptsturmfuhrer, SS Hauptmann Waffen, these concepts of an officer migrated to all military and paramilitary structures up to the RSHA.
        Therefore, Stirlitz, not being an officer "according to the charter," was called such, being an employee, in fact, of the secret police (foreign intelligence), and was subordinate to "General" Schellenberg.
        1. +7
          21 September 2019 11: 54
          Quote: U-58
          But Auschwitz to guard (Dead Head), to overtake prisoners, Khatyn to burn from them turned out perfectly.
          In the evening of March 22 1943, the punitive in the footsteps of the partisans went to the village of Khatyn, which they burned along with all its inhabitants. One of those who commanded the reprisal of civilians was the former senior lieutenant of the Red Army, who was captured and went to serve with the Germans, by then - the chief of staff of the 118-th Ukrainian police battalion, Grigory Vasyura. Yes, it was that Vasyur who was tried in Minsk in a closed trial.
        2. +6
          21 September 2019 16: 01
          Are you sure you haven’t messed up anything? in my opinion it was the SS who guarded the death camps and destroyed people, and the Waffen ss fought on the fronts
          1. 0
            21 September 2019 17: 41
            I do not confuse.
            In Auschwitz (Auschwitz), Dead Head soldiers were sent from the front to rest and recover.
            It was a changing composition of the guard.
            In constant it was full of so-called Russian.
            They wore a skull in their buttonholes.
            On the one hand, they are like tankers, on the other, like a dead head
          2. +7
            21 September 2019 18: 37
            He messed up, dear "submariner" U-58, messed up everything and everywhere. The most important thing:
            There were the so-called "general SS", or "black", they were just engaged in the protection of concentration camps, etc., and there were "green SS" who fought on the fronts on an equal footing with the "Wehrmacht". Yes, the SS had better and better supplies, but they were thrown into the meat grinder in the first place. And, by the way, those who served in the “greens” always clearly distanced themselves from the “blacks” when they were trying to lump them together.
            Well, I will not comment on the arguments about Stirlitz and "General" Schellenberg, it is not worth it.
            1. +3
              22 September 2019 11: 38
              The myth of the green SS, who did not participate in war crimes, but only the war veterans, was invented by the SS veterans to whitewash themselves. There are known cases of war crimes committed by units of the Waffen SS. In addition, the elite divisions of the Waffen SS are inextricably linked by the personnel rotation system, with the native SS divisions, various police units such as the Einsatzgruppen and Sonderkommando and the SS camp guard. The most famous example is Josef Mengele (the angel of death from Ozentsim) who, before being wounded, served in the 5th SS Viking Division.
              1. +3
                22 September 2019 14: 57
                And I did not claim that the "green SS" did not participate in war crimes. War itself is a crime against normal human life. Although for most of its history, humanity was just engaged in the extermination of their own kind. request
        3. 0
          23 September 2019 13: 11
          Dear U-58! For your information, Khatyn was burned by the "fighters" of the 118th Schutzmanschaft, consisting of the OUN (M) (Melnikovites). The same ones guarded concentration camps. But the Waffen-SS is the SS troops that directly took part in the hostilities and with combat training they were fine.
          1. -2
            25 September 2019 21: 57
            Quote: AK1972
            For your information Khatyn was burned by the "fighters" of the 118th Schutzmanschaft, consisting of the OUN (M) (Melnikovites)

            formed in the occupied USSR. The structure included ex. Soviet citizens (Russian Ukrainians). Also included was the disbanded Bukovinsky kuren of the OUN (Melnikovtsy).
            But for example, the Pole commanded.
            The Germans then, for their Olympic champion, ordered to destroy everyone.
            So these were Soviet collaborators.
            Ethnic-Ukrainians prevailed.
            It was funny to read the Ukrainian Wiki, where everything that was cleaned with ethnicity was neatly cleaned ...
      4. +6
        21 September 2019 08: 18
        If you mean software and privileges by elite, I agree with you. But in terms of military operations, the Wehrmacht units showed themselves much better, for example, "Great Germany". In terms of Charlemagne and the like, I do not see anything outstanding in terms of military operations, they did not show themselves. And the fate of the doomed in the defense of the Reichstag is the fate of the doomed.
      5. +1
        21 September 2019 10: 00
        Yeah, and the SS Panzer Corps of Hausser has long been the main striking force on the Eastern Front.
        1. +5
          21 September 2019 16: 10
          Quote: Rakovor
          Yeah, and the SS Panzer Corps of Hausser has long been the main striking force on the Eastern Front.

          Due to the priority replenishment of personnel and the latest materiel.
        2. +3
          21 September 2019 18: 27
          That's for sure. Suffice it to recall how this "one-eyed devil" rushed to Kharkov, completely ignoring the orders of his own command. And, albeit with heavy losses, he took the city. He was a serious enemy.
      6. +3
        21 September 2019 21: 02
        - Volunteer SS regiment "Varyag".
        The 1st Russian national brigade of the SS "Druzhina".
        -15th Cossack Cavalry Corps SS.
        The 29th Grenadier Division of the SS "RONA" (1st Russian).
        The 30th SS Grenadier Division (2nd Russian).
        The 36th Grenadier Division of the SS Dirlewanger.
        HOUSES SS MILITARY OF THE MAIN OPERATIONAL MANAGEMENT OF THE SS FHA-SS
        -15th Cossack Russian Corps of the SS FHA-SS- 3 divisions, 16 regiments.
        -SS FHA-SS (Military-SS)
        -29th Russian FHA-SS - 6 regiments.
        -30th Russian FHA-SS, 1st formation 1944. - 5 regiments.
        EMPIRE SECURITY MAJOR BRIGADES SS RSHA-SS
        The 1st Russian National SS Brigade "Druzhina" - 3 regiments, 12 battalions.
        The 1st Guards Brigade ROA "Sonderkomanda Љ113" SD - 1 battalion, 2 companies.
        SS Brigade of the Center for Anti-Bolshevik Struggle (CPBB) - 3 battalions.
        - The reconnaissance and sabotage formation of the Main Team "Russia - Center" of the Zeppelin Sonderstaff RSXA-SS - 4 special forces.
  2. +14
    21 September 2019 06: 15
    Vyacheslav thanks for the raised topic!
    The historiography of the problem in our literature is already very tendentious! From non-recognition - “aiding the enemy”, to slogans about “a million traitors” and its reverse denial !!!
    So we sharpen “clavs” and get ready “for battle”, with respect to Kote!
    1. +9
      21 September 2019 07: 10
      Vlad! Good morning to you! But a really interesting article was obtained by Vyacheslav Olegovich! Yes, and the selection of photos is good! As for the Indian * liberators *, I found out for the first time, honestly! So, thanks Vyacheslav Olegovich!
      1. +6
        21 September 2019 07: 54
        Good day, Sergey, I’m like in that cartoon - not enough, not enough! So we are waiting for the continuation!
        Regards, Vlad!
        1. +3
          21 September 2019 19: 40
          Vlad, hello and best wishes! hi

          It's just me - say hello. drinks
      2. +6
        21 September 2019 18: 43
        Hello, Sergey! But there was also the Tatar Legion "Ideal Ural" and a bunch of all sorts of small formations from the Armenian-Georgian-Azerbaijani traitors. I hope Vyacheslav will get to them too.
    2. +17
      21 September 2019 07: 15
      Vladislav! I was very lucky. I had a friend who defended his dissertation on this topic. Moreover, he spoke German and worked in the archives of Germany. And when I was working on the book "If Hitler took Moscow" he gave me .... And then the topic was drawn on VO, and all that remained was to get into my own archive.
      1. +7
        21 September 2019 07: 22
        From myself: very good luck! laughing Personally, thanks!
        1. +8
          21 September 2019 07: 26
          In the continuation of the information even more!
          1. +9
            21 September 2019 07: 28
            We are waiting, sir, waiting s. As a joke: are the Negroes also marked in the SS troops ?!
            1. +9
              21 September 2019 07: 47
              Quote: Phil77
              We are waiting, sir, waiting s. As a joke: are the Negroes also marked in the SS troops ?!

              I didn't find blacks, but Arabs and Muslims were. Romanko "Muslim legions in World War II"

              In historical literature, the topic of the use of Muslim legions in the Third Reich received almost no coverage. Muslim eastern formations, being full-fledged military units, represented a special category among foreign legions, which was associated with political, religious and ideological facts and the reasons for their creation.
            2. +13
              21 September 2019 14: 19
              Quote: Phil77
              As a joke: are there really Negroes in the SS troops

              There were blacks in the Wehrmacht. Special “Corps F”, or “Helmut Felmi”, named after the commander. He was seen near Rostov in 1942. He counted six thousand soldiers, including three thousand Arabs and Negroes Maghreb, Indians, Palestinians, Syrians, Libyans, Iranians, Assyrians, Chaldeans.

              1. +4
                21 September 2019 19: 04
                Thank you for the information! It would be interesting to see the faces of our soldiers when they captured these carriers of the * Aryan spirit *!
          2. +16
            21 September 2019 07: 52
            Vyacheslav Olegovich, the topic is so ambiguous here that one dissertation cannot be avoided! By the way, the position of the leadership of the post-war USSR, which, relying on the thesis "mass heroism of the Soviet people" was global and humanistic in nature! We have forgiven not only our internal enemies, but also the whole peoples of Europe! It was a position of strengths and causes only Respect, with a capital letter !!!
            But was Stalin and later general secretaries right? Maybe we should do the same as the French, who burned out collaborativeism with fire, both imaginary and real? Today, even on the territory of the former Soviet republics, the monuments to our grandfathers and great-grandfathers are demolished, desecrated from the grave!
            We object diplomatically! Or maybe it's worth responding in a mirror! They make a decision on the demolition of the monument to Konev, and we put the burial grounds of the whites in Yekaterinburg under the rink! Yes, it’s not humane, but maybe it is impossible with those who legally prosecuted children from the marriages of their citizens and Germans? Yes, disgusting, dirty and not Christian, but perhaps it will be much more effective than protecting the graves of the liberators of Ukraine, the Baltic states and Eastern European countries from immigrants from these countries on the eve of Victory Day on the territory of our entire Fatherland?
            Regards, Vladislav!
            1. +6
              21 September 2019 08: 20
              Vladislav! You’re absolutely right, the answer should be only mirrored! Demolished, let the local thugs get an act of vandalism-get. What a fright there is a memorial to the Poles (supposedly shot * by the bloody regime of Stalin *), the same squirrels who robbed everything But if they stand on our land, so please keep and respect our mass graves and monuments erected to people who saved the world from Nazism!
              1. 0
                21 September 2019 10: 12
                And yet, who will be responsible for the Latvian shooters?
              2. -1
                25 September 2019 22: 02
                Quote: Phil77
                Here you are absolutely right, in this question the answer should be just a mirror!

                I wonder if a hypothetical situation
                In Russia, vandals really destroy monuments or commit acts of vandalism (this is not uncommon)
                And some country makes claims to the Russian Federation - that
                Quote: Phil77
                allowed local thugs an act of vandalism-get

                ?
                It’s always better to start with yourself - monuments in the Russian Federation are also destroyed. Sometimes it’s so quiet .. and sometimes it’s loud on the entire Internet.
          3. +8
            21 September 2019 08: 45
            Good afternoon! hi Vyacheslav Olegovich, I still think that collaborators are traitors to their state. (If you take it for the war against the USSR) And you and the French and Hindus, etc. have written there. We do not call the Japanese and Italians collaborators? Mixed traitors and foreign citizens in one boiler tongue
            1. +8
              21 September 2019 09: 41
              Good morning, Sergei! However, at that time India was part of the British Empire! Which waged war with Germany, then? These Indians are still collaborators. Well, are they traitors or not, are they shaved. hi
            2. +5
              21 September 2019 13: 30
              Quote: bubalik
              collaborators are traitors to their state
              The word "collaboration" means "cooperation" (from the French), and the use of words varies depending on the ideological orientation of the text: betrayal is not always implied. Moreover, some SS men were sure that they were acting for the good of their country and people. As today, for example, some stubborn liberals seek to undermine the political situation in Russia with US grants, convincing themselves and others that they are acting for the good of their country and people.
            3. +4
              21 September 2019 22: 11
              "... I still think that collaborators are traitors to their state"
              There is nothing to be considered. There is a generally accepted definition.
              Collaboration is cooperation with the enemy against their country of wartime citizenship.
              Although the term is most often applied to cooperation with the Axis countries, formally, a citizen of any country cooperating with an enemy of that country is a collaborator.
              Therefore, the French, and the Indians, and Italians with the Japanese, who fought against their countries - formally - are collaborators.
          4. +4
            21 September 2019 19: 38
            Vyacheslav, thank you very much, I look forward to continuing. hi

            But I can’t help but be fooled: The handsome man from Free India is not an officer, but a private, although his mustache is straightforward to envy. smile
      2. +2
        21 September 2019 08: 04
        Vyacheslav Olegovich, I would gladly go into your archive. You dump the adrosk, and I'll try myself in the role of "housewife". Hee hee
        1. +5
          21 September 2019 11: 18
          Dear Astra! I'll tell you what is there: drawings of models made of paper and their scan, among which there is only one; the Japanese magazines Armor Modeling and Model Grafix for many years; photocopies of various books by the Osprey publishing house and these books themselves. A bunch of clumsy handwritten extracts and Penza archives. Only I can use them. Then folders with my articles from different magazines - the legacy of my granddaughter. Well, books, ranging from "Economy of the USSR during the Second World War" to the magazines "Science and Technology" for 1929, but there are few of them. Well, folders with materials torn from everywhere, newspaper pages. The wife orders all this to be converted into electronic form and to throw away the paper. We burn it at the dacha in a barrel with tops! So even getting there (in the archive) you won't find much, and you won't be able to use many of them. Moreover, you will scold me with a "little tongue" for a terrible mess.
      3. +2
        21 September 2019 11: 59
        Quote: kalibr
        And then the theme drew on VO, and it remains only to climb into the archive of my own.

        Thank you for the message, I would like to receive a comprehensive article at the VO, try as much as possible.
    3. +3
      21 September 2019 17: 53
      It would be nice if some connoisseur closed yet another gap in the history of the war - the German field gendarmerie.
      The topic is almost uncopped.
      But the structure had extraordinary powers.
      On an example from the biography of the literary Stirlitz.
      As it is known (to those who read), Stirlitz visited Smolensk, in Poland he "searched" for the missing FAU.
      So, the field gendarmerie, if necessary, could stop and detain even him, the Berlin intelligence officer.
      So all this is of certain interest
  3. 0
    21 September 2019 07: 56
    = To begin with, the topic of the participation of Soviet and foreign citizens in World War II as part of the German army and SS troops in the West is devoted to an extensive historiography, there they didn’t make any false secrets, as, say, with us until 1991. =
    Nonsense from Shpakovsky. If the author does not know anything about it, this does not mean that the "secret" was.
    = However, there was practically no research on this topic. The concept of the "brotherhood of Soviet peoples" did not allow writing about all the negative moments of our common history, and research on this topic was considered (by whom? Where are the indications that it was "viewed as propaganda"?) As propaganda of nationalism and chauvinism. It is not surprising that the topic of cooperation between Soviet citizens and the enemy began to be investigated only after the collapse of the USSR. =
    Another nonsense. Was this topic very interesting? To whom? Auto RU? So why did the author not explore this topic in Soviet times? If he is really interested in this topic.
    1. -2
      21 September 2019 12: 35
      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
      Bullshit from Shpakovsky


      Totally agree with you.

      Traitors of all nationalities after the war were severely punished, everyone knew about it, and therefore this issue did not cause much interest in the USSR, because the Soviet government pursued a policy of friendship of peoples

      Unfortunately, after the death of I.V. Stalin was pardoned to all collaborators, prematurely released from camps and prisons, and then completely rehabilitated, and they got the opportunity to participate in work in both state and party structures. During perestroika, it was they who became the support for the newly-born national bourgeoisie, which, with the help of nationalism and chauvinism, destroyed the Soviet Union.

      Why is interest in collaborationism now heating up?

      Yes, because, almost 30 years after the destruction of the USSR, the peoples of all the former Soviet republics again became strong in their desire for unification. And since this is not absolutely necessary for either the national or the world bourgeoisie, the media began to exaggerate this issue in order to finally quarrel our peoples and prevent their unification.

      Shpakovsky's article just serves this purpose. It doesn’t matter whether he understands this or not, the main thing is that his article pours water on the mill of bourgeois nationalists and chauvinists, supported by the American imperialists, inciting and intensifying ethnic hatred.
      1. +5
        21 September 2019 18: 54
        Yes, because, almost 30 years after the destruction of the USSR, the peoples of all the former Soviet republics again became strong in their desire for unification.


        In what republic they told you this, but most likely they whispered in your ear, because no one had heard this from you. Well, tell the truth to the people, where have you been told all this? In Ukraine, in Georgia, or maybe in Estonia with Latvia.
        Listen, Green, you are not speaking at a children's matinee at school, ADULTS have gathered here and you should probably think before writing what you wrote.
        PS Cons are not from me.
        1. -4
          21 September 2019 20: 28
          Quote: Sea Cat
          Well, tell the truth to the people, where have you been told all this?

          And you talk to the working people, and they will tell you that they have already "gorged" on both capitalism and nationalism.
          1. +7
            21 September 2019 21: 17
            I communicate with working people every day because I live in a village. I have not been to Estonia or Georgia since the beginning of the well-known mess, but judging by your statements, you have traveled around them all and talked with all the "working people". Then answer a simple question, why in any Kazakhstan, Azeibardzhany and other people do not arrange rallies demanding a return to the "fraternal family of peoples"? Conversely, Russian-speakers are squeezed out of there with consistent thoroughness.
            In my opinion, you are engaged in the usual and frank Bolshevik demagogy, Sasha. smile
            1. 0
              22 September 2019 17: 18
              Quote: Sea Cat
              I communicate with working people every day since I live in a village.

              Yes, there are working people in the village, but not that one. These are mainly peasants with their own economy, which provides them with a decent survival, and therefore the breakdown of inter-republican ties does not affect them as industrial workers did, so the villagers have a petty-bourgeois consciousness.

              Quote: Sea Cat
              why in all Kazakhstani, Azeybardzhany and other people do not arrange rallies demanding to return to the "fraternal family of peoples" And vice versa, Russian-speaking people are squeezed out of there with consistent thoroughness.?

              All this suits the national bourgeoisie, which has destroyed the USSR and now that it has taken over everything, and the people have become unbearable from this, it, in order to ward off the discontent of the people from itself, switches its arrows to representatives of other nationalities.

              Most of the workers are nostalgic about the Union, but they do not speak out yet, because they are not organized, but they are trained by capitalism and will soon become, according to Marx, "from a class in themselves - a class for themselves", and will establish Soviet power and then restored The Soviet The Union.
              1. +2
                22 September 2019 17: 35
                Yes, there are working people in the village, but not that one. These are mainly peasants with their own economy, which provides them with a decent survival

                In which village you will now find peasants, we have ninety percent of the people working in cities, some in Moscow, some in Ryazan, and homestead households - this is just a variant of the Soviet land plot in the country, just bigger.
                ... establish Soviet power and then the Soviet Union will be restored.

                Your lips (I’d insert an ellipsis here, but I’m afraid they will misunderstand). hi
                1. +1
                  22 September 2019 21: 52
                  Quote: Sea Cat
                  and household plots are, consider, just a variant of the Soviet site in the country, only more.

                  Tweak here, these Soviet sections at one time played their negative role in changing the class consciousness of workers. This was one of the directions of the decomposition of the working class. Remember, there was a plot on television: when Yeltsin destroyed the Soviet regime, he met with the workers and told them to be patient, and they assured him that they would, and showed their cans with vegetable preparations. It was then that socialism was finally exchanged for capitalism.

                  And the fact that rural residents go to work in the city does not mean that they have become a working class. By V.I. To become a real proletarian, Lenin needs to be cooked in a factory boiler for at least 10 years, and also not have property in the village.

                  Quote: Sea Cat
                  Your lips

                  What's so obscure? Without the establishment of Soviet power in the former republics of the Soviet Union cannot be restored.
                  The Soviet Union is the Union of Soviets. In the meantime, in the republics of the State Duma, the Verkhovna Rada, etc.
                  1. +1
                    22 September 2019 23: 48
                    it is necessary to tolerate, and they assured him that they would tolerate, and showed their cans with vegetable preparations. That's when socialism was finally traded for


                    This is for sure - food is more important than any "bright" idea! It is difficult to build communism on an empty stomach. request
                    1. +1
                      23 September 2019 16: 22
                      Quote: Sea Cat
                      This is for sure - food is more important than any "bright" idea! It is difficult to build communism on an empty stomach.

                      Unfortunately, Yeltsin did not build communism, but capitalism; he deceived the Soviet people.
                      1. 0
                        23 September 2019 16: 40
                        And in my opinion, Soviet people were deceived initially: communism is impossible to build. This is prevented by the very nature of man, predatory and selfish. But this is only my opinion, and I do not impose it.
                      2. +1
                        23 September 2019 17: 04
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        communism is impossible to build.

                        Why is it impossible? We already had its first phase - socialism, under I.V. Stalin. Now a temporary defeat, rummage in history how capitalism was established, also not immediately., And also with deviations, a vivid example is France.
                      3. -1
                        23 September 2019 17: 17
                        We already had his first phase - socialism


                        Well, at this stage they stumbled and did not go any further. Since there was just socialism in the whole country, socialism was developed between the MKAD and the Kremlin wall, and communism behind the Kremlin wall. laughing And people are not blind. Why didn't they love Muscovites? And for the first category of supply, as if we had chosen it for ourselves. So it turns out that the authorities also pitted the population against each other. "Divide and conquer" (C) - everything is as written.
                        It was some kind of socialism, don’t find it. request
                      4. +1
                        23 September 2019 19: 27
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        It was some kind of socialism, don’t find it.

                        I do not find. We had real socialism until 1956. then after the so-called exposure by Khrushchev of the cult of the Personality of I.V. Stalin, they gradually began to curtail, the restoration of capitalism and its economic laws began, and with it the degeneration of the Soviet people and the Communist Party began. I have already written about the reasons for this more than once, if interested, I can give links to relevant articles on the Internet.
                      5. 0
                        23 September 2019 20: 32
                        Regarding Khrushchev, I partially agree with you, but otherwise ... Well, it was impossible to keep the country locked in the grip of the repressive apparatus all the time. Any dictatorial regime will collapse sooner or later, and there are many examples in history.
                        Yes, and what exactly is the restoration of capitalism after 1956? I was still not enough then to remember everything thoroughly. hi
                      6. +1
                        23 September 2019 21: 40
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        Yes, and what exactly was the restoration of capitalism

                        In short, then:
                        In the economic sphere. In the late 50s, Khrushchev forced all collective farms to buy MTS equipment, after which the state eliminated the cultivation of crops, and collective farms became capitalist enterprises, they included the cost of equipment in the cost of agricultural products.
                        Then, in 1965, a new economic reform was completed, it redirected the orientation of industrial enterprises to profit and changed the planned indicators, instead of nomenclature and quantitative indicators of goods, they began to plan monetary profit. This replaced the Stalinist socialist economic system, focused on reducing the cost of capitalist production. After that, the washing out of cheap products and other troubles began.

                        In the political sphere. At the 22nd Congress of the CPSU, the erroneous thesis was put forward about the final victory of socialism in the USSR, there was a departure from the foundations of Soviet power - the dictatorship of the proletariat, the state was called the whole people, and the CPSU - the party of the whole people. The working class was removed from power, as a result the class struggle was curtailed, they stopped fighting opportunism, revisionism in ideology and the enemies of the people in society.
                        In 1977, the working class was finally removed from power, the newly adopted Brezhnev Constitution of the USSR stipulated that the working class was no longer guiding by force, but only leading, and these are two big differences. The result is known - the country came to the events of 1991.
                      7. +1
                        23 September 2019 19: 46
                        I, too, will not impose my own.
                        Your statement is cynical, false and dangerous for young people. The very nature of man is public, social. And here are those who are setting laws and rules, really predatory and selfish people.
                      8. 0
                        23 September 2019 20: 27
                        Minus you vkondyachili? As a convincing argument? Very convincing, quite in the spirit of your nature, "social and social". laughing

                        Alexander Green does not fall before this; he has enough words and the ability to use them. I do not always agree with him, but sincerely respect my opponent. Well, and you - yes God bless you.
                      9. +1
                        23 September 2019 20: 35
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        Have you got a minus?

                        No.
                      10. +1
                        23 September 2019 20: 42
                        In this case, I sincerely apologize. hi
                      11. +1
                        23 September 2019 20: 47
                        Accepted. Apologizing, if wrong, is often difficult hi
                        PS Many words turned out, one does not miss wink
                      12. +1
                        23 September 2019 21: 32
                        Actually, I am against censorship, but on the other hand, give free rein to someone here and the site will immediately turn into a branch of some stray beer house. But everything, of course, is good in moderation. hi
                      13. 0
                        28 September 2019 14: 02
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                      14. +1
                        28 September 2019 16: 06
                        Thank you. hi
                        He was not a member of any parties, much less was at lectures at the Higher School of Economics. But you obviously have some experience and you probably know better. Yes
                      15. +1
                        28 September 2019 16: 38
                        - wink RS,Rѕ P ± RѕR "SЊS € Rμ Rє P'P ° C € RμRјSѓ RѕRїRїRѕRЅRμRЅS,Sѓ RѕS,RЅRѕSЃRoS,SЃSЏ ... P RґRμRѕR" RѕRіRoS ‡ RμSЃRєRo RїRѕRґRіRѕS,RѕRІR "RμRЅRЅS <R№ S,RѕRІR ° SЂRoS ‰! Рђ тР° Рє то - РґР ° ... Р ”овел РѕСЃСЊ РІ 80-С ... РїРѕСЃР »СѓС € Р ° ть Р» ектоСЕРСРІ РёР · РіРѕСЂРєРѕРјРЊР °Р °Р ...Р ...Р ...Р ...Р ...Р ...Р ...Р ...Р ...Р ...Р ...Р ...Р ...Р ...еР...Р ...еееееееееељµ € Р »РѕРµ, РєР ° Рє РІРїСЂРѕС З З РµРј, Сѓ РєР ° ждого РіСЂР ° ждР° РЅРёРЅР ° РЎРЎРЎР!
                      16. +2
                        28 September 2019 17: 41
                        Everything was true with the Komsomol past, they consisted and paid contributions, and then it turned out that it was not necessary to do this at all, and it would be better to put the money at least for a drink. drinks
                      17. 0
                        28 September 2019 17: 50
                        -Р ”ействител СЊРЅРѕ ... Рђ то РєР ° Рє то wink РЅРµ РІСЃРїРѕРјРЅСЋ РЅРµ РїСЊСЋС ‰ РёС ... РєРѕРјСЃРѕРјРѕР »СЊС † ев ...
      2. +1
        22 September 2019 16: 26
        Amnesties were already under Stalin. Amnestied parties were not accepted and did not work in government agencies.
  4. +8
    21 September 2019 08: 03
    Collaboration has no nationality. He is "international". Something like this... request
  5. +2
    21 September 2019 08: 21
    For a long time I believed that the SS uniform was black (as in the film; "Seventeen Moments of Spring") later I found out: in the SS and in the Wehrmacht they had the same uniform, but the black one was left for special occasions.
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, here you know better, they told me that the Germans had a peculiar hierarchy: SS, and how are significant waffen ss?
    1. +3
      21 September 2019 11: 54
      There was also a smart white. She was almost never worn.
      But buddy Muyuyuller in the very last days flaunted just in this.
      He deliberately exhaled everyone's eyes.
      And then ... puff .. and disappeared
      1. 0
        21 September 2019 18: 56
        Have you personally met? If not, then drive the link. About Muller in white uniform.
        1. +2
          22 September 2019 09: 11
          I don’t give a link; I don’t remember where.
          But similar material was on TV "Zvezda" and in Prokopenko's Vonnaya Secret
          1. 0
            22 September 2019 14: 53
            I don’t give a link; I don’t remember where.


            Thought so.
            And yes! Prokop is certainly an authority, especially with his beloved reptilians. laughing
            1. +1
              22 September 2019 17: 31
              Well, if you are so great, hammer in a search engine: photo white ss front dress uniform.
              And we will be with you
              1. -1
                22 September 2019 17: 41
                I have enough happiness. You, what, did not understand that we are talking specifically about Müller? Or just because there is nothing to say "glue Vanka"?
          2. 0
            22 September 2019 21: 09
            I don’t remember something about Müller’s tunic. True, I haven’t watched it for a long time.
        2. +3
          22 September 2019 13: 46
          I’m glad to welcome you Konstantin! I’ll give a link, the site is clothing on the search engine, in the section dedicated to the ss form the front dress is really mentioned in white (approved in 1939). That's it!
          1. +2
            22 September 2019 15: 04
            Hello Seryozha! I know that they had a formal white uniform, I’m talking about something else: I doubt very much that Johann Müller wandered around Berlin in a white uniform. His photos were generally miscalculated once or twice, but in the usual form, only one or two. He never climbed to the forefront, as a real police professional tried not to shine anywhere once again. .
            1. +1
              22 September 2019 15: 58
              Well, I agree, more than doubtful. Moreover, the pros are still from the time of the Weimar Republic. In the spring of the 45th it is difficult to imagine him in a snow-white dress uniform! laughing It’s more likely in the traditional, dirty uniforms of the Volksturm officer (but without weapons!).
            2. +1
              22 September 2019 17: 32
              Yes, not in Berlin, but in the Reich Chancellery.
              It is the testimony of the service staff and taken
              1. 0
                22 September 2019 17: 42
                Is the Reich Chancellery an Ide? In Africa? laughing
                1. +2
                  22 September 2019 19: 46
                  Yes you are a witch !!!
                  1. +3
                    22 September 2019 20: 17

                    No, I’m shooting down from the adversaries to the right.

                    It was already, but now also in the subject. soldier
            3. +3
              22 September 2019 20: 40
              ,,, not about this Muller are the honorable ones talking?
              who was only at the end of the ninetieth in the SS ranking card?
              1. +2
                22 September 2019 23: 44
                But the devil knows, Seryozha, there are more of them, Mollerov, than the Ivanovs, but still we broke them. Maybe the same one, for some reason I thought that he was Johann, but maybe Henry too. Who cares, it’s still not like Armored. laughing drinks
                1. 0
                  28 September 2019 17: 59
                  - Р “РµРЅСЂРёС ... его Р · РІР ° Р» Рё ... Р “РµРЅСЂРёС ... РњСЋР» Р »РµСЂ. RљR ° Rє RЅRμ SЃS,SЂR ° RЅRЅRѕ, RЅRμ SЃRѕSЃS,RѕSЏR "PI RќRЎR" RђRџ, F · F ° C ° ‡ S,Rѕ RЅRμRѕRґRЅRѕRєSЂR S,RЅRѕ P "Roes € P ° R" SЃSЏ RїSЂRѕRґRІRoR¶RμRЅRoSЏ RїRѕ SЃR "SѓR ¶Р ± Рµ ...
        3. +2
          22 September 2019 17: 54
          Quote: Sea Cat
          About Muller in white uniform.

          Swam, we know ... Yes
          1. +1
            22 September 2019 20: 15
            Great, Vladimir! I didn’t see this canoe before, but now I neighing with all my heart! laughing

            "Where is my black pistol - on Bolshoi Karetny!
            Where I am not today - on Bolshoi Karetny! "
            (C) V. Vysotsky.
            1. +1
              22 September 2019 21: 26
              Cat, you must agree that it is a very funny parody. I somehow got used to the old version and I have not yet seen the "painted" version completely (no desire), but my son liked the new version. True, he did not see the old version, and after the new version, how will the old one be?
              1. +1
                22 September 2019 23: 53
                Well, yes, I wrote above.

                I have not seen the colored version and will not look. My son, thank God, saw the original black and white. But I commented something there and gave him Schellenberg's "Labyrinth" to read, he read and asked questions - he began to think and understand that not everything is so simple and unambiguous.

                All the best and health to you and your son. love
          2. +1
            22 September 2019 21: 17
            Mordvin, thank you: have fun
            1. +2
              22 September 2019 23: 55
              Astra, more attentively, who did Mordvin "hang" there?
    2. +2
      21 September 2019 18: 58
      hierarchy: SS and how are significant Waffen ss?

      Everything is exactly the opposite, dear Astra love . I already wrote a little higher there about this. hi
    3. 0
      28 September 2019 14: 12
      - K. Zalessky has detailed information on the topic YY ... As far as I remember from his book: Divisions YY, volunteer divisions YY and divisions of troops YY ... The latter were recruited mainly from Volksdeutsche, and "racially close", the latter from anybody ..
      1. 0
        28 September 2019 14: 26
        Thank you for clarifying, otherwise it turned out some kind of absurdity: the elite units protecting the Fuhrer and all sorts of garbage
        1. -1
          28 September 2019 14: 54
          - I would generally question the "elite" of the YY troops - their training practically did not differ from the army. I read that the age of entry into these parts was originally 21 years old - i.e. adult people came, consciously, and with an appropriate attitude to the service ... And, despite this, at first, the losses among the NN were so great that the command went to lure cadres from the army. If only in terms of ideology ... With elitism at that time, everything is not so simple - tankmen and mountain shooters, submariners and parachutists were considered elite ... But the people from Brandenburg (scouts - saboteurs) were not particularly ...
  6. +3
    21 September 2019 08: 25
    An important topic. It is individual for each case. But there were quite a few “herd” decisions. Each has its own border - what is permissible.

    But sometimes the conditions can be changed - with the same needles under the nails.
    1. +1
      28 September 2019 16: 42
      - Ales Adamovich has a story "The Punishers" ... There is a very interesting analysis of the reasons for the transition to the German service ...
  7. +5
    21 September 2019 08: 26
    The topic raised will continue to be interesting, especially in terms of statistics. The only request to the author is to remain politically neutral. Interesting "naked" information, and let everyone give the political color personally - in the comments.
  8. +3
    21 September 2019 08: 41
    "enroll in the SS troops," why not the Wehrmacht? After all, parts of the ss were considered the elite?
    I recently learned that Himmler recommended that his "comrades" have children not in bed, but in the old Aryan cemeteries ..... brrr. You have to think of this. Okay, in the summer on the grass, and in the fall or winter? I would not like to be in the place of that Gretchen
    1. +2
      21 September 2019 11: 01
      They were all deeply ignorant people. They believed in all the devilry ... that’s why they lost.
      1. +4
        21 September 2019 18: 05
        Well, to hell ...
        It is not that simple.
        For example, no one in fascist Germany has ever called the Slavs an inferior race.
        Neither Hitler nor Goebbels.
        Nevertheless, we were sentenced to total destruction.
        Why not?
        There was such a "mystical" organization of Annenerbe.
        It seems that even without genetic analysis, they dug up the fact that the Slavs, Russians are closer descendants of the ancient Aryans than the Germans.
        And in order to "get closer" to their great ancestors, they decided to remove the unnecessary link, that is, us
      2. +3
        21 September 2019 19: 03
        Vyacheslav, from what? At night, in the cemetery ?! I have never tried it, but there is something mystical about it: at the place of repose of the dead, the birth of a new life. Although the devil knows what can arise in such a situation. laughing
  9. BAI
    +12
    21 September 2019 09: 06
    In total, it was in the SS that about 340 foreigners served.
    Holland 22
    Belgium, Flemish 7500
    Belgium, Walloons 5500
    France 10 000
    Italy 20 000
    Denmark 7500
    Norway 8000
    Sweden 300
    Finland 2000
    Albania 6500
    Croatia 26
    Serbia 7000
    Bulgaria 750
    Romania 5000
    Hungary 40
    Czech Republic, Poland, Slovakia 3000
    Latvia 40
    Estonia 23
    Ukraine 27
    Caucasus, Asia 8000
    Cossacks 35
    Russia, Belarus 28 (including "Khivi" in various parts of the SS)
    Luxembourg and Liechtenstein 3000
    Switzerland 1330
    Spain 300
    Great Britain, its colonies, and also the USA and Ireland 300 (including the Volksdeutsche of these countries)
    India 3500

    Here are some national parts:
    Volunteer Legion "Netherlands"
    Volunteer Legion "Flanders"
    Volunteer Corps "Denmark"
    Volunteer Legion "Norway"
    Finnish Volunteer Battalion
    British Volunteer Corps
    Indian Volunteer Legion
    Serbian Volunteer Corps
    Estonian Volunteer Legion
    Caucasian military unit SS
    East-Turkic military unit SS
    SS Tank Regiment No. 103 (Romanian No. 1)
    SS Tank and Fighter Regiment (Bulgarian No. 1)
    1. 0
      21 September 2019 09: 58
      The question is why Russia and Belarus are together, so to speak in total?
      1. +4
        21 September 2019 10: 00
        Something tells me that you don’t pick a thousand scoundrels (up to 39 years old)
      2. -2
        21 September 2019 20: 07
        Quote: VeteranVSSSR
        The question is why Russia and Belarus are together, so to speak in total?

        All the same, all the same, therefore, they attributed it.
        How did you want to be attributed to the Baltic neighbors or to Western Ukraine? These in the SS were just unmeasured!
        And so, against the backdrop of Russia, you are simply lost. In other words, you were practically absent from the SS.
        1. 0
          21 September 2019 20: 22
          I wanted to say a little about something else. The Baltic states, Ukraine, Belarus were completely under the Germans. The RSFSR partially.
          1. +1
            21 September 2019 23: 00
            But there were really few Belarusians in the SS - 30 Belarusian SS division. There were few ethnic Belarusians there.
    2. 0
      26 September 2019 22: 31
      [quote = BAI] In total, it was in the SS that about 340 foreigners served. [quote]
      What source are the numbers taken from? There are too many Croatians. And about the Bulgarians in more detail.
  10. +4
    21 September 2019 10: 03
    Also "Aryans" ....)) these are Kalmyks from the Kalmyk Cavalry Corps, Abwehrgruppe-103 as part of the 16th motorized division of the Wehrmacht, aka the Kalmyk unit of "Dr. Doll".
    1. +4
      21 September 2019 10: 41
      Photo credited! It seems that they were given out uniforms for growth. Or were there simply fewer sizes?
      1. +4
        21 September 2019 10: 59
        What happened, they gave it!
        1. +2
          21 September 2019 11: 03
          By the residual principle? laughing
      2. 0
        28 September 2019 14: 15
        - And belts from the English "harness" ... Trophy or what?
    2. +3
      21 September 2019 16: 10
      Quote: bionik
      Also "Aryans" ....)) these are Kalmyks ....

      Years, some 30 years ago or more, they let me look through a book of the 19th century. Large, thick, about pages of parchment with drawings and photos. In short, a solid book. About human races, Russian author, physician, unfortunately I do not remember his name and the title of the book. This book shook my "harmonious" ideas about the Aryan theory of the German Nazis. Notice the 19th century book.
      It stated in one of the chapters that the Kalmyks have one of the most correct, Aryan structures of skulls. wink
    3. +1
      22 September 2019 16: 32
      The Japanese and Han people were considered by the Nazis to be the "Aryans of the East". Like the Turks, like the Persians, like the Pashtuns. Probably, the same applied to the small Mongoloid peoples of the Kalmyk type.
  11. -2
    21 September 2019 10: 20
    What is SS - in the Wehrmacht, 440 of thousands of German Jews zealously served.

    Their losses on the Eastern and Western fronts are still listed as victims of the Holocaust.
    1. +3
      21 September 2019 10: 39
      Brian Rigg * Jewish soldiers of Hitler *. We are talking about 150000 soldiers and officers, which of course is also a lot!
      1. +1
        21 September 2019 20: 36
        150000 thousand is an understated figure that includes only 100% of Jews and half-breeds. 440000 thousand includes mestizos for a quarter and one eighth, which in Israel are recognized as Jews without question.

        About 10000 Jews — soldiers of the Wehrmacht and the SS — were captured by the Red Army. Some of them died in captivity and, in accordance with the official position of the Israeli National Memorial Yad Vashem, are considered Holocaust victims.

        The same thing happened with a gay man, Werner Goldberg, who for many years served as a model for Nazi propaganda and was pierced as part of an official investigation into a criminal article for his orientation. Goldberg was only fired from the Wehrmacht, until the end of the war he served in the rear as an employee of a company in tailoring military uniforms. After the war he was a member of the legislative assembly of West Berlin.
        1. 0
          22 September 2019 16: 34
          But these people with one quarter or one eighth of Jewish blood were officially considered Germans, and they considered themselves Germans.
          1. -1
            22 September 2019 17: 17
            According to the Reich Citizenship Act, a mestizo (Mishling) with a restriction of civil rights was considered a person who had at least one of the second generation ancestors a purebred Jew, while the person himself at the time of the publication of the law (1935 year) belonged to the Jewish community or was married with a Jew / Jewess.

            Israel has a similar racial law to grant or refuse Israeli citizenship.
            1. 0
              23 September 2019 07: 48
              Finally, all this is curious.
              I heard about a family who left for permanent residence in Israel.
              The husband of the youngest daughter is an Azerbaijani.
              ..Got Israeli citizenship
            2. 0
              23 September 2019 10: 55
              The fact is that a significant part of German Jews, and even more so the majority of people with a certain share of Jewish blood, were either Christians, or atheists, or nominal Jews who did not observe Jewish customs.
    2. 0
      21 September 2019 11: 11
      "Jews in the third generation" served only those who had a grandfather
      a Jew, and all relatives are closer - Germans.
      They are not considered Holocaust victims.
      It is commendable that the Nazi Operator is involved in the discussion.
      Have ideological convinced Nazis, as the Operator, in the VO forum
      very instructive.
      1. +5
        21 September 2019 12: 03
        The Jews served in the second generation, but half-breeds.
        Having one Jewish parent.
        At the same time, their Jewish parents had a special paper that their son was serving in the Wehrmacht.
        The paper freed from oppression and allowed to receive food ration on an equal footing with ordinary Germans
        1. +4
          21 September 2019 12: 21
          There was a list of 80 people. Half-Jewish Jews of the Wehrmacht officers.
          It was provided to Hitler by several generals with an ultimatum:
          if he does not approve the list, then they quit. Hitler approved.
          The remaining half-breeds were sent to the camps just as well
          pure Jews. Most of the figures of Jewish soldiers -
          Soldiers of the Hungarian Jewish construction battalions.
          They served without weapons. Horthy, not wanting to extradite Hungarian Jews to Germans,
          He recorded all the men in building battles.
      2. +8
        21 September 2019 13: 28
        If you take into account yesterday’s statements by Kaptsov, then half of the forum is Nazis.
        1. +4
          21 September 2019 13: 42
          No. There are very few Nazis. Often emotions about the story are interpreted,
          as sympathy for them. Or is there "spontaneous anti-Semitism". This is bullshit.
          1. +3
            21 September 2019 14: 02
            Alexei! I, in my manner, tried to joke.
        2. +5
          21 September 2019 13: 48
          Hello Anton! Yesterday there was something terrible! Perhaps it should be attributed to a pre-exit state, but there was a lot of aggression!
          1. +4
            21 September 2019 14: 00
            Good day, Sergey!
            Come on, "well, horror, but not" horror-horror "!!! laughing
            1. +4
              21 September 2019 14: 02
              Of course not, not even horrible nightmare! good But harsh.
              1. +4
                21 September 2019 14: 09
                Sergey, treat this with humor!
                1. +3
                  21 September 2019 19: 06
                  Phil77
                  Today, 15: 02
                  x3zsave
                  Today, 15: 09
                  ,,, it is strange that there is no yesterday's opponent. If only he "turned around" on this thread bully
                  1. +2
                    21 September 2019 19: 12
                    Kaptsov rarely comments on other people's articles.
        3. +3
          21 September 2019 19: 09
          Hailushki, comrade Anton! stop And you in which half? smile
          1. +3
            21 September 2019 19: 14
            Just like you, Konstantin, in the best !!! hi
            1. +4
              21 September 2019 19: 16
              Good answer, Buddy! I'm glad we are in the same trench, and now have some fun when the time comes! soldier
              1. +2
                21 September 2019 19: 21
                And what will the tank be gone? crying laughing tongue
                1. +2
                  21 September 2019 19: 34
                  About Tank was in an article about Focke-Wolfe, but if you want so, then we are always happy.
    3. +4
      21 September 2019 19: 06
      And where did they get so much? Explain, please. And preferably with links to a serious resource. And then I have here anti-Semitic neighbors are interested.
      1. +4
        21 September 2019 19: 46
        Why are you interested in?
        "Here is the place of Golda Meir we slammed
        And there is a quarter of our former people "(c)?
        1. +3
          21 September 2019 19: 56
          Why are you interested in?


          So they say that:
          "Hemingway was a real man as a child." (FROM),
          Here it is antirec to people to know where they managed to crawl. laughing
          1. +3
            21 September 2019 20: 00
            "Dad, is our cat a Jew too?" (from)
            1. +2
              21 September 2019 20: 06
              "Do not take into your account anything ... except money" (c) tongue
              1. +2
                21 September 2019 20: 10
                I will try to. smile Well ... as soon as I get the bill. drinks
              2. +3
                21 September 2019 20: 17
                "Oh-wei! If I could write, I would be an accountant in Odessa!"
            2. +3
              21 September 2019 20: 09
              Cat? Well, quite a bit. wink
  12. +7
    21 September 2019 10: 50
    A total of 21 107 000 people fought in the Wehrmacht and the SS, including them:
    16 German Germans;
    3 citizens of the Third Reich of other nationalities of Austria, Prussia, Sudeteland (Sudeten region of Czechoslovakia), Warteland (Poznan, Poland), as well as a protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia;
    1 006 000 citizens of European countries, in addition to citizens of the Third Reich;
    806 Soviet collaborators.

    Who is interested in the topic of Soviet collaborators, I give a link to the data of my research. A cycle of eight topics, one of which is "The general balance of losses of Soviet collaborators in the Second World War":

    https://www.strategium.RU/forum/f/773-vtoraya-mirovaya-voyna/
    1. 0
      22 September 2019 15: 19
      806 Soviet citizens? the numbers are so beautiful, zeros are everywhere, i.e. no accurate data based on documents
      1. +1
        22 September 2019 15: 47
        Quote: fruit_cake
        806 Soviet citizens? the numbers are so beautiful, zeros are everywhere, i.e. no accurate data based on documents

        Do you prefer archived data? I can offer calculated ones, where one of the values ​​(Wehrmacht and ss) coincides both in the calculations and in the revealed falsifications of Mueller-Hillebrand one to one. The second (in terms of combat formations outside the Wehrmacht) fell very close to "about 180", according to Krivosheev. I got the following data.

        PART 4. GENERAL POST-BY-STATE BALANCE OF LOSSES BY CONNECTIONS.

        1 - the total final number of servicemen of the Red Army and citizens of the USSR who joined the Wehrmacht and SS, in military formations outside the Wehrmacht and police formations.

        806 000 - ENTRY IN VERMACHT AND SS, of which:

        357 - "Killed" (killed in hostilities with the Red Army, partisans of the USSR and Europe, allies; at least 000 on the Eastern Front);

        449 - “Captives”, “Emigrated”, “Deserters”.

        The total number of prisoners in the Wehrmacht and the SS and in military formations outside the Wehrmacht is 279, but they could not be divided.

        *** Nothing more was revealed for 449 — a mixed composition of the Red Army and Soviet citizens does not allow this.

        178 - COMING IN BATTLE COMPLEXES OUTSIDE THE VERMACHT

        There are no data on the dead, but the total number of deaths in military formations outside the Wehrmacht and in the police units is 173, but it was not possible to separate them.

        There is no data on prisoners, but the total number of prisoners in the Wehrmacht and SS and in military formations outside the Wehrmacht is 279, but it was not possible to divide them.

        There are no data on deserters and emigrants.

        *** Nothing more has been revealed in combat formations outside the Wehrmacht. The fact is that Krivosheev captured in the Wehrmacht and the SS and in military formations outside the Wehrmacht united together. The study allowed to unite the dead in military formations outside the Wehrmacht and in police units together.

        213 100 - INCLUDED IN POLICE UNITS

        There is no data on the dead, but the total number of those killed in military formations outside the Wehrmacht and the SS and in police formations is 173, but it was not possible to divide.

        60 400 - "Captives" (captured during hostilities with the Red Army and partisans), of which:
        50 600 - soldiers of the Red Army;
        9 800 - citizens of the USSR.

        There are no data on deserters and emigrants.

        Nothing more was revealed in the police units. 

        *** Mostly captured by partisans. All 60 were in special camps of the NKVD on 400/1.10.1944/XNUMX.
        1. 0
          22 September 2019 16: 39
          I’m saying excellent numbers, everywhere even 10, zeros everywhere, everything’s beautiful
  13. +3
    21 September 2019 10: 58
    Quote: Damir Zakirov
    A cycle of eight topics, one of which is "The general balance of losses of Soviet collaborators in the Second World War":
    https://www.strategium.RU/forum/f/773-vtoraya-mirovaya-voyna/

    What a fellow you are, Damir!
    1. 0
      21 September 2019 19: 00
      Quote: kalibr
      Quote: Damir Zakirov
      A cycle of eight topics, one of which is "The general balance of losses of Soviet collaborators in the Second World War":
      https://www.strategium.RU/forum/f/773-vtoraya-mirovaya-voyna/

      What a fellow you are, Damir!

      And you still read the cycle of eight topics. No irony.
      1. +1
        21 September 2019 21: 49
        Where did you see the irony? What an insignificant world we live in if people have forgotten how to see normal praise and perceive it as ... some kind of sub-base ... It's funny!
        1. +2
          21 September 2019 22: 48
          So, I misunderstood your reaction. And the topics have the following names:
          1. "The balance of those mobilized in the Red Army. Closed archives of the Ministry of Defense".
          2. "The general balance of the mobilized servicemen of the Red Army in the Second World War".
          3. "The general balance of losses of the paramilitary formations of the USSR in the Second World War".
          4. "Peaceful and military losses of the USSR in the Great Patriotic War".
          5. "General balance of losses of Soviet collaborators in the Second World War".
          6. "Losses of allies and paramilitary units of Germany in the Second World War". Losses are fully described in topic 8.
          7. "The general balance of mobilized in the Wehrmacht and the SS."
          8. "The ratio of losses of the parties in the Great Patriotic War."
  14. +2
    21 September 2019 11: 02
    Quote: Vitaly Tsymbal
    The "naked" information is interesting, and let everyone give the political color personally - in the comments.

    So be it!
  15. +1
    21 September 2019 11: 03
    Quote: Astra wild
    SS and how are significant waffen ss?

    Exactly!
  16. +4
    21 September 2019 11: 05
    Hitler's German reserves ended in 1943.
    And they began to recruit volunteers from everywhere.
    The USSR completely exhausted its reserves in the spring of 1945. They began to call from 17 years old.
    1. +1
      21 September 2019 13: 57
      A little bit on the topic, but reminds domestic (some!) Brands. At first, there are almost no questions about the quality, but after a while it’s BETTER NOT TO BUY !!
    2. 0
      21 September 2019 16: 11
      I read this appeal about them! he underwent at least six months of training they were brutally trained by the most experienced instructors in the tank forces they were nicknamed "professors"
    3. +2
      21 September 2019 18: 10
      They began to urge 17-year-olds from the fact that in the second half of the 44th year, about 80 thousand highly skilled workers were demobilized to replenish the labor front.
      Victory had to be brought closer
  17. +4
    21 September 2019 11: 05
    Quote: U-58
    In the SS organization there were no concepts of "officer, private, chief".
    The entire system was built, oddly enough, according to the structure of the Red Army at the end of the 20s, where there were no officers and where everyone was "comrades".
    In the SS system, everything from top to bottom was)))) partigenigenoss, which migrated to the troops.
    But since in the combat units the ranks were double, such as the SS Hauptsturmfuhrer, SS Hauptmann Waffen, these concepts of an officer migrated to all military and paramilitary structures up to the RSHA.
    Therefore, Stirlitz, not being an officer "according to the charter," was called such, being an employee, in fact, of the secret police (foreign intelligence), and was subordinate to "General" Schellenberg.

    That's it!
  18. +1
    21 September 2019 11: 06
    Where is "hivi", and where - "SS", even "Waffen-SS". Because "hivi" are rather construction, economic, auxiliary parts. So we delete them from the "SS" unambiguously. The Caucasian AUXILIARY troops of the Wehrmacht on the "SS "they don't pull either. The Cossacks of von Pannwitz are not SS members either. And this can go on for a very long time ...
    1. +4
      21 September 2019 14: 06
      Auxiliary - stands for "punitive".
      They united in auxiliary and police battalions.
      (partisans, camps, escort of prisoners).
      And the "Waffen-SS" is used at the front as a "strike force".
      Hivi could get there and there. But most of it was like
      You wrote it right in the drivers, hoz. parts etc.
  19. +3
    21 September 2019 11: 07
    Quote: Nycomed
    Collaboration has no nationality. He is "international". Something like this.

    Sure! Weak in spirit, cowardly and "on their own mind" people are among all nationalities. I will say even more: a traitor - he is a traitor only when he has lost. There are no traitors among the victorious ones!
  20. +5
    21 September 2019 11: 09
    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    So why did the author not explore this topic in Soviet times?

    You will refer to the recommended dissertations first. And then write "nonsense". And it was impossible in principle to research this topic in the USSR. I know only one dissertation on this topic at that time, it was defended by a colonel, and it was a DSP.
  21. +2
    21 September 2019 11: 20
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    the topic is so ambiguous here that one dissertation is definitely not enough!

    Look - there are a lot of them! Both doctoral and candidate. All have one price!
  22. +2
    21 September 2019 11: 21
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    By the way, the position of the leadership of the post-war USSR, which, relying on the thesis "mass heroism of the Soviet people" was global and humanistic in nature! We have forgiven not only our internal enemies, but also the whole peoples of Europe! It was a position of strengths and causes only Respect, with a capital letter !!!

    You said it well!
  23. +2
    21 September 2019 11: 22
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    But was Stalin and later general secretaries right? Maybe we should do the same as the French, who burned out collaborativeism with fire, both imaginary and real? Today, even on the territory of the former Soviet republics, the monuments to our grandfathers and great-grandfathers are demolished, desecrated from the grave!

    And here you ask the question correctly. Forgiving, I had to ... start writing about it, so that everything could be seen WHAT WE FORGIVEN and appreciated our good attitude. And we forgave and forgot. And you can’t!
  24. +2
    21 September 2019 11: 27
    Quote: Phil77
    As a joke: are the Negroes also marked in the SS troops ?!

    You know ... my memory is not as good as before, but it seems to me that I saw a photo of a black man in German uniform. I don’t remember where or is it deja vu - but I’ll look.
  25. +3
    21 September 2019 11: 43
    An interesting photo of a national man with a machine gun. This photo appears in albums devoted to the Battle of the Caucasus. But he is dressed in our overcoat, in the cap and the strap of the duffel bag is visible. And the Khivis were known to be in the state of German units, wore uniforms and could not get a machine gun due to the specifics of the service, which boiled down to economic support
    1. +2
      21 September 2019 18: 22
      And you do not think that this is a staged photo !!!?
      hi
      1. +2
        21 September 2019 18: 35
        Hard to tell. The man got a machine gun and is happy about this. The campaign is still a Red Army man.
        1. +3
          21 September 2019 18: 51
          ,,, in this photo is also a Red Army man feel
          ,,, and in that photo, if it were complete.
          1. +3
            21 September 2019 19: 22
            Interesting photo. The campaign is a fresh prisoner who was attracted to dragging weights, well, unless of course he captured them. I read many times that in 1945 in Germany when our units were bloodless, and the Germans already understood that everything, ours also attracted prisoners for all kinds of work.
  26. +6
    21 September 2019 11: 48
    A purely technical issue. Please do not do the rack. Is it possible to consider the French collaborators. After all, they represented the government of Pétain, quite legal at the time of the creation of the legion.
    1. 0
      21 September 2019 19: 00
      Any doubts? The Vichy government is inherently collaborative. The French serving in the SS did not represent Vichy, they were volunteers. In addition, there was a structure of voluntary assistants to the Wehrmacht.
      1. +1
        21 September 2019 19: 19
        The Vichy government, or rather Peten, was a completely legitimate government that controlled a large territory. This is the trick. Not like Denmark or Norway where a legitimate government was overthrown and replaced by a fascist one. Let me remind you - Peten is the hero of MPV. The French SS Legion was voluntary, as was the Spanish Blue Division. Volunteer assistants are not the SS, but civilian non-military units of the Wehrmacht, in which former prisoners were sometimes recruited. That is, formally official France - in the person of its contingent, fought against the USSR, like Spain.
        1. +1
          21 September 2019 20: 17
          All is not quite so.
          Collaborationism is not connected with the legality or non-legality of the government, it is simply collaboration (collaborer) with the enemy, the occupier.
          It is better to talk about the government (regime) of Vichy, and not about the government of Pétain, he headed it only until 1942.
          French SS volunteers fought as part of the Wehrmacht (legal features of submission not to Reich citizens) and representing the French State under the French flag, not French Republic.
          Volunteer assistants wore over the form of a bandage, there were 3 structures including and SS assistants.
          1. +1
            21 September 2019 20: 25
            Thank you interesting
        2. 0
          30 September 2019 22: 53
          Quote: Ken71
          The Vichy government, or rather Peten was a completely legitimate government,

          Well, yes, but de Gaulle and Antoine de Saint-Exupery, who joined him, as well as the entire Normandie-Niemen are deserters and traitors to the French nation. Hitler is the source of legitimacy in Europe.
          1. 0
            1 October 2019 18: 20
            I said - formally and asked not to do construction. And so - the winner writes the story
  27. 0
    21 September 2019 12: 44
    Quote: voyaka uh
    There was a list of 80 people. Half-Jewish Jews of the Wehrmacht officers.
    It was provided to Hitler by several generals with an ultimatum:
    if he does not approve the list, then they quit. Hitler approved.
    The remaining half-breeds were sent to the camps just as well
    pure Jews. Most of the figures of Jewish soldiers -
    Soldiers of the Hungarian Jewish construction battalions.
    They served without weapons. Horthy, not wanting to extradite Hungarian Jews to Germans,
    He recorded all the men in building battles.

    Yes. There were probably Nazis who had Jewish blood, but mostly out of fear.
    There were also such as Yakov Kozalchik, the head of the prison block in the camp. Again, for a long time they could not figure out who he was ....
  28. +4
    21 September 2019 13: 57
    Quote: Alexander Green
    supported by the American imperialists, inciting and increasing ethnic hatred.

    Something dear is heard in the long songs of the driver, daring to revelry, then a heartfelt melancholy ... "
    1. +5
      21 September 2019 15: 55
      "And again there was a hassle about the insidious foreign" (c)
      1. +1
        21 September 2019 19: 23
        "He had breakfast with me, dined
        And everywhere after me
        As if he has no business "(c).
        1. +1
          21 September 2019 19: 29
          'The neighbor behind the wall lazily beat the neighbor,
          A secret call sign sounded in my ears
          On weekends I’m so eager for reconnaissance,
          Ayda, guys, who else is with me ?! "(c)
          1. +2
            21 September 2019 19: 40
            He drank tea little by little and took out a spoon winked
            1. +1
              21 September 2019 19: 43
              "He's a master at these things
              This same John Lancaster "(c)
          2. +2
            21 September 2019 19: 45
            “Yes, it’s not even geese,
            And everything is amiss ”(c).
            1. +2
              21 September 2019 19: 58
              "The light of the lamps went out, the air was blown out,
              Ali have forgotten how to live with you? "(C)
            2. +3
              21 September 2019 19: 58
              "All in dust, and a branch in a hat, intelligence carries the tongue." (C)
              1. +1
                21 September 2019 20: 03
                "Once I got a" tongue "but did not report" (c)
                1. +1
                  21 September 2019 20: 41
                  "Yes, even this type
                  From the second battalion ”(c).
          3. +1
            25 September 2019 01: 33
            ********************
            'The neighbor behind the wall lazily beat the neighbor,
            A secret call sign sounded in my ears
            On weekends I’m so eager for reconnaissance,
            Ayda, guys who ********** You connected part of the third couplet to the last,))) Bashlachev had a different way.)))
            1. +1
              25 September 2019 06: 56
              Hello, I quote from memory. It was exactly like that on my cassette. This is the last verse. Perhaps there is another version that has become canonical oh and included in poetry collections. Thanks for the info, I’m interested.
              1. +2
                25 September 2019 10: 41
                Hello, the song "The Exploit of the Scout".
    2. -1
      21 September 2019 18: 35
      Quote: kalibr
      Quote: Alexander Green
      supported by the American imperialists, inciting and increasing ethnic hatred.

      Something dear is heard in the long songs of the driver, daring to revelry, then a heartfelt melancholy ... "


      But isn’t it true about inciting ethnic hatred? The fact is that many pseudo-patriots, recalling collaborators of some nationality, spread their sins to the entire nationality, and begin to divide the nations into good and bad.
      1. 0
        22 September 2019 16: 44
        Well, in our USSR this was also observed in relation to some peoples forcibly resettled in 1943-1945.
        1. 0
          24 September 2019 22: 34
          Quote: Sergej1972
          Well, in our USSR this was also observed in relation to some peoples forcibly resettled in 1943-1945.

          Ничего подобного.
          In the USSR in the 70-80s in order to quarrel the peoples, there was another thing; the layman threw jokes about the Chukchi, Moldavians. In addition, they incited anti-Semitism, for which they organized a mass exodus of Jews to Israel. For this, whole institutions worked abroad.
  29. +2
    21 September 2019 13: 59
    Quote: sniperino
    As today, for example, some stubborn liberals seek to undermine the political situation in Russia with US grants

    What nonsense. Again, grants ... Do you even know how they receive and report on them? And where does the FSB look, if it is so easy to saturate destructive elements with money?
  30. 0
    21 September 2019 15: 57
    The author did not understand why foreign SS units were formed, that they simply were subordinate to the SS Reichsfuhrer according to the Reich law, and in the initial understanding of the elite German units they were not SS troops. Which foreigners and in which units of the Wehrmacht served, also kept silent. Maybe due to the lack thereof?
    Journalism assumes a basic knowledge of history.
  31. +1
    21 September 2019 16: 35
    Quote: There was a mammoth
    It stated in one of the chapters that the Kalmyks have one of the most correct, Aryan structures of skulls.

    The Germans had their own understanding of "Aryanism".
    1. +1
      22 September 2019 21: 43
      Quote: kalibr
      The Germans had their own understanding of "Aryanism".

      Ash stump, that for the Nazis Kalmyks were just one of the barbarians and used them as cannon fodder. I gave an example of how the search for exclusivity, Aryan can lead to the very opposite result. This book would be a gift to Goebbels. wink
  32. 0
    21 September 2019 17: 40
    Quote: AlexZN
    Which foreigners and in which units of the Wehrmacht served, also kept silent. Maybe due to the lack thereof?

    Functional illiteracy? Everything is written there ...
  33. 0
    21 September 2019 19: 39
    Quote: Alexander Green
    begin to divide the nations into good and bad.

    This is not for me. I write everywhere that bad people are everywhere. I don’t care whether you are a Negro or Russian, most importantly, to be smart.
    1. 0
      21 September 2019 20: 38
      Quote: kalibr
      This is not for me.

      Then do not pour water into the mill of the bourgeoisie. The fact is that such publications raise a storm of emotions among not far-sighted readers, who then spread their hatred of collaborators from the former Soviet republics to the entire people of these republics.
  34. 0
    21 September 2019 19: 41
    Quote: Alexander Green
    But isn’t it true about inciting ethnic hatred?

    This is all for the Operator!
  35. -2
    21 September 2019 19: 43
    Quote: U-58
    The topic is almost uncopped.

    I don’t know German. Only if they wrote about it in English ...
  36. -1
    21 September 2019 21: 42
    Quote: Alexander Green
    The fact is that such publications raise a storm of emotions among not far-sighted readers, who then spread their hatred of collaborators from the former Soviet republics to the entire people of these republics.

    This is their problem, not mine. If they are not sufficiently educated, socialized and educated to perceive completely neutral information, then this is not my fault. Also, who pays you a pension? Bourgeoisie! So do not offend her.
    1. +1
      22 September 2019 16: 55
      Quote: kalibr
      This is their problem, not mine. If they are not sufficiently educated, socialized and educated to perceive completely neutral information, then this is not my fault.

      So, if they are not sufficiently educated, then can they be fed with any chernukha?

      Quote: kalibr
      Also, who pays you a pension? Bourgeoisie! So do not offend her.

      Well, yes, the bourgeoisie robbed me like a sticky one, and now it hugs me and says "Let's live together!" ... You serve her well.
  37. +1
    21 September 2019 22: 57
    interesting article, well done author. but he did not name the reasons for the betrayal, or collaborationism, as he is now called. I would like to know the opinion of the author on this subject. For now, many liberal writers are looking for an excuse for this phenomenon. As is known, Himmler was not only the supreme Fuhrer of the SS, but also the head of the entire police force on the territory of the Reich and its borders. But all these paramilitary national police units obeyed him. and when things at the front went bad for super people, they began to drive these formations into hastily created legions of SS troops, which later became known as Waffen SS divisions. There was no combat value for this rabble, they wrote about it in their so-called memoirs, and Manstein, and Guderian. but still one interesting detail, these generals revealed. according to them, the best draft contingent, tried to take the Wehrmacht, did not lag behind the Luftwaffe, and of course the Kriegsmarine, but in the SS, everything that they did not get. and then the Himmler began to recruit in the SS, Volksdeutsche from the occupied territories. as I understand it, recruiting in ss was done voluntarily. generally walked around the bend. Of course, the percentage of Volksdeutsche in the SS was large. And in the shooting of the Americans in Malmed, they took an active part, Volksdeutsche from Romania, destroyed the Oradur, also Volksdeutsche but from Alsace.
  38. 0
    22 September 2019 06: 03
    I already wrote in the comments on another topic that 70 percent of the white population of the USA consider themselves descendants of German immigrants.
    The words "Jew" and "European" are not just similar in sound, they are just a short and long pronunciation of one term.
    Europe is a country, from the word side, "Jews", or "Europeans", to whom, which is closer.
    Moreover, as noted by non-blinkered researchers, in ancient languages ​​the words "Aryan" and "Jew" have one meaning - "man". And on some, and are pronounced the same.
    The Jewish point of view on WWII is very curious.
    From this point of view, the world war is a war of safards and Ashkenazi.
    That is, the war of "Western" "Jews" against "Eastern" "Jews".
    And, given that the word "Jew" is translated as "man", then this is a war of "Western" people against "Eastern" people.
    P.S. By the way, the word "Jew", in real translation into Russian, means "ideological". Only.
  39. 0
    22 September 2019 10: 33
    Make Preussen Great Again laughing
  40. -1
    22 September 2019 12: 03
    Quote: Damir Zakirov
    Closed archives of MO ".

    Damir, did you work in the MO archives?
    1. +1
      22 September 2019 16: 13
      Quote: kalibr
      Damir, did you work in the MO archives?

      God forbid, who will let me go there? Krivosheev worked. Moreover, although he wrote his work under the pressure of Gorbachev, he did not internally agree with the data presented.
      And he did so many, at first glance, inconspicuous stuffing that it seems more than possible to restore the structure of closed archives.

      Zemskov's works allow you to detail archive sections and archives in sections with an accuracy of one hundred people.
      Read the topic "Top Secret" 2040, which outlines the research methodology.

      The data, which are presented in eight topics, are the data that the last 28 years have been trying to determine. You can reject them, but it is to these data that you will come after 20-30 years.

      Both Krivosheev and Muller-Gillebrand worked with real archives. You just need to understand for what purpose and in what places of their labors they resorted to falsifications. With this understanding, the works of both authors are read very easily and all inconsistencies are built into a harmonious picture of losses.
  41. -1
    22 September 2019 12: 40
    You might think that the commissar and security officer is a plus sign. The same immoral sadists.
  42. +2
    22 September 2019 13: 07
    Quote: Astra wild
    For a long time I believed that the SS uniform was black (as in the film; "Seventeen Moments of Spring") later I found out: in the SS and in the Wehrmacht they had the same uniform, but the black one was left for special occasions.
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, here you know better, they told me that the Germans had a peculiar hierarchy: SS, and how are significant waffen ss?

    In fact, it was black only until 1936. Hammer in the search engine "Anatomy of the Army" This is the resource of Yuri Veremeyev, who left last year in another world. There he has a lot both in form and in insignia and in many other ways

    Quote: kalibr
    Moreover, you will scold me with a "little tongue" for a terrible mess.

    This, dear Vyacheslav, is probably the illness of everyone who has at least some kind of personal archim. You put it off until later, and suddenly there will be more information. And sometimes the influx of "new information" exceeds the processing speed

    And one more question, dear Vyacheslav. In the names of SS divisions, formed not from the citizens of the Reich, there was such a detail EMNIP "Pure SS divisions were called, for example, XXX SS Panzer Division, XXX SS Grenadier Division. And divisions formed from all sorts of renegades had the designation XXX division AT SS, Can you confirm or deny such information ...
  43. -1
    22 September 2019 15: 09
    There was a difference in names. Exactly as you called it. But only ... you have it written under the SS, and in my source: just the SS and the SS troops. No "at". That is: XXX SS division and XXX SS division. The peculiarities of the translation are obvious.
  44. +1
    22 September 2019 15: 16
    Quote: mikle1999
    You might think that the commissar and security officer is a plus sign. The same immoral sadists.

    The difference in professed ideology. Hitler’s was based on the primacy of recognizing the German leadership over other nations here and now. It could no longer become better in the future. Germans and so gentlemen. Soviet was based on the primacy of ideology, not nation, and this ideology was based on the ideals of equality of people, high moral standards, and happiness in the future. That is, the German used the low-lying qualities of the human soul, and ours used the highest. Experience has shown that villains take advantage of both theories. But with ours they still have a harder time ...
  45. 0
    22 September 2019 15: 16
    Quote: mikle1999
    You might think that the commissar and security officer is a plus sign. The same immoral sadists.

    The difference in professed ideology. Hitler’s was based on the primacy of recognizing the German leadership over other nations here and now. It could no longer become better in the future. Germans and so gentlemen. Soviet was based on the primacy of ideology, not nation, and this ideology was based on the ideals of equality of people, high moral standards, and happiness in the future. That is, the German used the low-lying qualities of the human soul, and ours used the highest. Experience has shown that villains take advantage of both theories. But with ours they still have a harder time ...
    1. +1
      22 September 2019 18: 10
      When you are in the dungeons, the ideology preached by the executioner interests you much less than the kind of tweezers with which he rips you meat.
  46. The comment was deleted.
  47. -2
    22 September 2019 17: 35
    Quote: Damir Zakirov
    God forbid, who will let me go there?

    And I worked, and I also read Muller-Gillerbrandt, and I read many more, and I made inquiries to the Bundesarchive. So I can imagine what is at stake and very well. And I can understand what's what. By the way, getting there is not so difficult. Publish several articles in any scientific journal (preferably foreign), indicate that you ... are working on ... that you are the author of such articles in Austria, Hungary, Poland ... and write a request there for permission to continue research. And forward to Podolsk!
  48. -2
    22 September 2019 17: 35
    It just seems that hard. In fact, everything depends only on money!
  49. The comment was deleted.
  50. The comment was deleted.
  51. -2
    22 September 2019 18: 26
    Quote: Alexander Green
    but they are not performing yet, because they are not organized,

    And they never will!
  52. +3
    22 September 2019 19: 31
    Quote: kalibr
    There was a difference in names. Exactly as you called it. But only ... you have it written under the SS, and in my source: just the SS and the SS troops. No "at". That is: XXX SS division and XXX SS division. The peculiarities of the translation are obvious.

    Thank you. Probably yes. Different sources say differently.
  53. -3
    22 September 2019 20: 31
    Quote: Alexander Green
    Well, yes, the bourgeoisie robbed me like crazy

    And you wouldn’t allow yourself to be robbed, that’s all! Stupid people are needed for smart people to live at their expense. It has always been so and so it will be in the future. It is not horses that ride people, but people on horses. Sometimes they buck, it’s true, but a tight rein, a whip, spurs and a sweet carrot quickly bring them to their senses.
    1. 0
      22 September 2019 22: 04
      Quote: kalibr
      Stupid people are needed for smart people to live at their expense.

      You are mistaken, it is not smart people who live at the expense of others, but vile and cunning ones. Smart people serve the whole people, while sneaky and cunning people take everything upon themselves. But in nature, for every cunning... there is always such a useful thing, with a left-hand thread.
  54. -2
    22 September 2019 20: 34
    Quote: Alexander Green
    You are serving her well.

    Everyone is given a certain amount of capital from God. Or not given... So it depends only on the person how he uses it. I've always used mine and still use it great!
    1. +1
      22 September 2019 22: 07
      Quote: kalibr
      Quote: Alexander Green
      You are serving her well.

      Everyone is given a certain amount of capital from God. Or not given... So it depends only on the person how he uses it. I've always used mine and still use it great!


      Sorry, but in this case it looks more like “silver coins”....
  55. 0
    23 September 2019 06: 37
    Do you use the Bible? There is another parable there. About talents... some of them bury them in the ground. And someone uses them!
  56. -2
    23 September 2019 06: 44
    Quote: Alexander Green
    Smart people serve the whole people

    The dogs serve! And people live by the principle “I give to you so that you can give to me.” And if someone gives a lot to others, he has the right to demand a lot for himself! And, by the way, one of the reasons for the collapse of the USSR was precisely that those who gave a lot to others did not receive adequate returns, or received, but not all.
    1. +1
      23 September 2019 19: 34
      Quote: kalibr
      The dogs serve! And people live by the principle “I give to you so that you can give to me.”

      No, "respected" crooks live by the principle "you give me - I give you." and real people serve the working people.
  57. -1
    23 September 2019 06: 45
    Quote: Alexander Green
    So, if they are not sufficiently educated, then can they be fed with any chernukha?

    Need to! To understand complex things, you just need to be educated.
  58. +3
    23 September 2019 12: 13
    Quote: Alexander Green
    It is mainly the workers who are nostalgic about the Union, but they are not speaking out yet because they are not organized, but they are being trained by capitalism and will soon become, according to Marx, “from a class in itself - a class for itself,” and will establish Soviet power and then the Soviet Union will be restored.

    “Nostalgia” is slowly fading away as those who were adults at the time of the collapse of the USSR leave for another world. Even those who were 30 at the time of the collapse, relatively young people who have already known the world, are now pensioners. And they are nostalgic rather not so much for the Soviet Union as a whole, but for individual positions. For example, free education and medicine, and the fact that by completing your studies early you were guaranteed to get a job. No one is nostalgic for the “average salary” and empty shelves in stores in the mid-90s. Now the understanding has begun to come that what the Politburo did was sometimes to the detriment of the country. They say directly that there was no need to bring all these small clothing enterprises, hairdressing salons and so on “under the state.”

    Quote: Alexander Green
    Yeltsin was destroying Soviet power, he met with the workers and told them that they had to be patient, and they assured him that they would be patient and showed them their jars of vegetable preparations. That’s when they finally exchanged socialism for capitalism.

    If I’m not mistaken, there is an expression “a hungry belly is deaf to arguments.” He said that we had to be patient - and people were ready to endure in the hope of better things, showing off their twists and turns. For the artificially created deficit did not add faith “in the ideals of the party”...

    Quote: Sea Cat
    I have not seen the colorized version and will not watch it.

    Don't tell me, Konstantin. I also vowed not to watch the colorized version, but when I did, I didn’t find anything wrong with it. You can just see the color of the costumes, the color of the uniform. You watch this film like an old Soviet film, which was filmed in color, but there were black and white copies at the box office. And then again you watch the film - and it’s in color. Or how to switch from a black and white TV to a color one.

    Quote: Unknown
    as you know, Himmler was not only the highest Fuhrer of the SS,

    Not certainly in that way. The highest ranks in the SA and SS belonged to Hitler. He is the only one who had the title
    Oberste SA Fuehrer (Oberste SA Fuhrer) in SA. There were two ranks in the SS, which belonged to two people...
    This is the title of SS Reichsfuehrer (SS Reichsfuehrer). Only G. Himmler had this title. But the highest rank in the SS was the title that only Hitler had - Der Oberste Fuehrer der Schutzstaffel. (Der Oberste Fuehrer der Schutzstaffel)
    1. +2
      23 September 2019 16: 59
      Quote: Old26
      No one is nostalgic for the “average salary” and empty shelves in stores in the mid-90s

      In the 90s, empty shelves were purposefully made by those who wanted to bury socialism and destroy the USSR.
      And people are really nostalgic about the average salary, because at that time about 70% of workers received it, and on which one could live comfortably. And today, a maximum of 10% receive an average salary, all 85% receive a minimum and nothing at all, the rest are freaking out...

      Quote: Old26
      “Nostalgia” is slowly fading away as those who were adults at the time of the collapse of the USSR leave for another world. Even those who were 30 at the time of the collapse, relatively young people who have already known the world, are now pensioners.

      Never mind, soon everyone will raise their retirement age to 70, or even 80, and they will never become pensioners. But seriously, that's not the point. It is now capitalism, which cannot exist without class struggle. Young people are forming a class consciousness that will lead them to the need for a socialist revolution, and after it they will understand that together with the peoples of all Soviet republics it is easier to resist external imperialism. This will be the Soviet Union.
  59. -2
    23 September 2019 15: 47
    Quote: There was a mammoth
    This book would be a gift to Goebbels.

    Here I completely agree with you. And moreover, modern achievements of genetic analysis too. All these haplogroups... could... be maneuvered politically, rather than Aryans fighting against Aryans!
  60. +1
    23 September 2019 16: 33
    Quote: kalibr
    Do you use the Bible? There is another parable there. About talents... some of them bury them in the ground. And someone uses them!

    Alas, this parable does not apply to your case.
  61. +3
    23 September 2019 16: 52
    . It is interesting that these concepts themselves (“collaborationism” and “collaborators”) do not appear at all in the reference literature of the pre-war period.

    Because there was and is a very precise concept - a traitor to the Motherland. And you don't need anything else.
    And collaboration emanates tolerance from a kilometer away. Ugh, disgusting.
  62. +3
    23 September 2019 17: 28
    Quote: Alexander Green
    In the 90s, empty shelves were purposefully made by those who wanted to bury socialism and destroy the USSR.
    And people are really nostalgic about the average salary, because at that time about 70% of workers received it, and on which one could live comfortably. And today, a maximum of 10% receive an average salary, all 85% receive a minimum and nothing at all, the rest are freaking out...

    I actually made a mistake when I wrote in the mid-90s. Rather, in the mid-80s, many regions of the USSR already had food problems. Especially in the Volga region. In the North Caucasus and Rostov region it was a little better, but it was also felt. What good is it when in the Rostov Region or Stavropol Territory they received a couple of packs of butter per month using coupons? Sausages in the store - it’s scary to remember. Except they're cheap. And they are not nostalgic for this. And there were still years before the destruction of the USSR. So who wanted to destroy the USSR? The top of the party and government. After all, no one could officially force trains of meat, sausages, and butter to be driven to the capitals from the same South...

    Quote: Alexander Green
    And people are really nostalgic about the average salary, because at that time about 70% of workers received it, and on which one could live comfortably. And today, a maximum of 10% receive an average salary, all 85% receive a minimum and nothing at all, the rest are freaking out...

    It is precisely those who were in the prime of life (25-30 years old) with an average salary who are not nostalgic. There was a limit that you couldn't jump over. Now you can work - work and get more than your average salary under socialism. It was good for us because everything else cost pennies. Five years ago I was “retired.” I looked for a job for a couple of weeks and found it. I was and am doing the same thing as in a budget organization. True, the money is 5 times more. Moreover, here, in a private company, the bosses don’t tell me that I “Know Nothing.” and “she will find at least a dozen people like me in 5 minutes.” Here they value not only skill, but also initiative. Which also pays well...
    I don't worry about fat. I’m not flashy, but I no longer live from paycheck to paycheck, although I wouldn’t mind getting more.
    Living comfortably under socialism means living like everyone else and having nothing. Overpay speculators for everything. Behind the TV, behind the wall, behind the sofa. Yes, some people may be annoying, but others... In relation to others, you understand that someone is a little more lucky than you, someone less. But if you want to work and earn money, there are no questions. And so, when, like my friend’s, a 40-year-old son sits for three years without work and waits for someone to offer him... They won’t offer him. And another three years ago went to work as a construction worker for a private company. Day - 1000 rubles. In three years I became a good specialist. Now he earns money during the season, quite enough for a decent life

    Quote: Alexander Green
    Never mind, soon everyone will raise their retirement age to 70, or even 80, and they will never become pensioners. But seriously, that's not the point. It is now capitalism, which cannot exist without class struggle. Young people are forming a class consciousness that will lead them to the need for a socialist revolution, and after it they will understand that together with the peoples of all Soviet republics it is easier to resist external imperialism. This will be the Soviet Union.

    It’s strange, but for 30 years on the territory of the former Union, in the part called Russia, there have been no battles of class war. Class consciousness among young people - I wonder what it is. So far, we can only see those fooled young people who organize pogroms during demonstrations and processions and try to win for themselves the title of “fighter against the regime.” For others, the goal is to get an education and get a good job. I don't see anything wrong with this. And revolutions - revolutions usually end in great blood and all the benefits are received not by those who fought for this revolution, but by those who were lucky enough to be at the top, at the feeding trough.
    And stop dreaming that all nations will revive the former Soviet Union. The outskirts will reach out to Russia only when we ourselves begin to live better, richer, than they do. So far, guest workers have only understood this, but the elites have not yet reached it. When it comes, the Union will be revived. Perhaps not Soviet in political structure...
    1. 0
      23 September 2019 17: 48
      If you're stubborn, you can't prove anything. Out of pure stubbornness, he will tell you not to have his hair cut, but shaved! But at least the good thing is that it responds to any teasing, “fights”, and this brings clicks and comments, which increases the investment attractiveness of the site. So let him “take it” further. I am only for such fighters!
      1. +1
        23 September 2019 19: 47
        Quote: kalibr
        But at least it’s good that he responds to any teasing and “fights”

        Well, what can I say about this? Thanks for the tips. Thanks to you, I am promoting socialism, exactly what is needed, and I am responding to any of your nonsense.
    2. +1
      23 September 2019 19: 41
      Quote: Old26
      Now you can work - work and get more than your average salary under socialism

      It’s just that there isn’t enough “work” for everyone.
  63. -2
    23 September 2019 17: 43
    Quote: Alexander Green
    Alas, this parable does not apply to your case.

    Who said this? Neither one nor the other... a resident of a country that only the lazy would not point a finger at, and a confessor of ideals that only... would not be laughed at?
  64. -2
    23 September 2019 17: 50
    Quote: Old26
    The outskirts will reach out to Russia only when we ourselves begin to live better, richer, than they do. So far, guest workers have only understood this, but the elites have not yet reached it. When it comes, the Union will be revived. Perhaps not Soviet in political structure...

    Without any doubt. Here we will have wages like in Japan and the USA, social guarantees like in Sweden and democratic institutions like in France... then we will have no end to visitors!
  65. +1
    23 September 2019 19: 50
    Quote: kalibr
    Quote: Alexander Green
    Alas, this parable does not apply to your case.

    Who said this? Neither one nor the other... a resident of a country that only the lazy would not point a finger at, and a confessor of ideals that only... would not be laughed at?

    The one who laughs last is swept away.... Communism is the future, this is the objective reality of the development of society, whether you like it or not, you can slow it down for a while, but you cannot stop it.
  66. 0
    23 September 2019 20: 29
    Quote: Alexander Green
    The future belongs to communism, this is the objective reality of the development of society, whether you like it or not, you can slow it down for a while, but you cannot stop it.

    Yes, I also hope for this, that everything is in common, and food from the belly, and with whomever you want... but... I certainly won’t live to see such happiness. And if I don’t live long enough, that means... he won’t exist. And you won't see him. For two centuries, none of us are spare.
    1. +1
      23 September 2019 22: 01
      Quote: kalibr
      And if I don’t live long enough, that means... he won’t exist.

      It’s a shame for a former teacher of the History of the CPSU to say so. This is pure idealism - “if I don’t see it, then it doesn’t exist”

      Quote: kalibr
      And you won't see him.

      As a child, when I was learning to read, I really liked Leo Tolstoy’s story “The Old Man and the Apple Tree”:
      You probably haven’t read it, but in vain, it’s a very wise pedagogical story.

      “The old man planted an apple tree and watered it. People ask: “Old man, why did you plant the apple tree, you still won’t eat its fruit?” To which the old man replied: “I won’t eat it, my children and grandchildren will eat it.”
      1. -1
        24 September 2019 17: 00
        But I dig up apple trees for myself - I don’t eat apples, but I do physical activity in the fresh air. And after me, they won’t eat apples from them. I won't know.
  67. -2
    23 September 2019 20: 32
    Quote: Alexander Green
    Now you can work - work and get more than your average salary under socialism

    It’s just that there isn’t enough “work” for everyone.

    It's not the work that's missing for everyone - it's the mind! You write yourself - the proletariat still won’t see the light... the youth are still reaching out... everything is in progress. Nobody will understand anything. No brain!
    1. +1
      23 September 2019 22: 06
      Quote: kalibr
      Nobody will understand anything. No brain!

      There is a time for everything, social existence is determined by social consciousness. Young people are being trained in capitalism and are already wondering: why are the bourgeoisie running wild while the workers are barely making ends meet?
  68. -2
    23 September 2019 20: 35
    Quote: Alexander Green
    Thanks to you, I am promoting socialism

    Yes, yes, promote it. It will all happen in the future! But we are getting clicks now. And now is better than tomorrow.
    1. +1
      23 September 2019 22: 07
      Quote: kalibr
      ! But we are getting clicks now. And now is better than tomorrow.

      I'm not a one-day butterfly like you....
  69. -2
    23 September 2019 20: 38
    Quote: Alexander Green
    you can slow it down for a while

    The main thing is to slow down for as long as you are alive, healthy, and prosperous. And at least grass won’t grow there! After us - even a flood!
    1. 0
      23 September 2019 22: 11
      Quote: kalibr
      After us - at least a flood!

      No one expects anything else from you; they don’t sing about people like you.
  70. -2
    23 September 2019 20: 42
    Quote: Alexander Green
    soon everyone will raise the retirement age to 70, or even 80, and they will never become pensioners

    They won’t raise it higher than in the USA!
    1. 0
      23 September 2019 22: 13
      Quote: kalibr
      They won’t raise it higher than in the USA!

      Well, yes, everything is heading towards the fact that pensions will be abolished altogether.
  71. +2
    23 September 2019 21: 14
    Quote: Alexander Green
    The one who laughs last is swept away.... Communism is the future, this is the objective reality of the development of society, whether you like it or not, you can slow it down for a while, but you cannot stop it.

    And how long will this braking process continue? Now there is an almost complete rollback of the socialist path of development. There are two reserves left - Cuba and North Korea. The same China is also moving away from the principles of socialism. In order to move to communism, as the classics wrote a long time ago, it is necessary rebuild a person. The principles that they declared for socialism turned out to be more in demand in capitalist states than in socialist ones. For the principle "from each according to his ability, to each according to his work" there it leads to the fact that a person has abilities - he works, combining one or two specialties, for which he is paid quite decently. With us, you may be required to perform some additional duties, sometimes amounting to at least half of your work, but you cannot pay more than a certain amount. How suddenly “I” will earn more than the deputy director, chief accountant, etc. Usually they leave such organizations and start working on their own. Yes, sometimes they get bumps and “fly by”. But they gradually reach a certain standard of living. Well, the principle of communism "from each according to his ability to each according to his need" may not be implemented very soon. It is necessary not only to restructure human consciousness, but also to restructure the entire industry of the world.
    Several decades ago, one of my comrades, after graduating from the command communications school, ended up as an “agricultural worker” in fraternal Angola. And as he said, one could often see a local resident carefreely lying under a palm tree. When asked why you don’t work, you could hear that we were exploited for several centuries, now I want to rest. When asked what you will eat, what you will eat, etc., you will hear the answer that your brothers will bring you from the USSR.
    It will take not only centuries, millennia to “correct” such people to the required level. So I ask the question, how long will this slowing down process continue? After how many centuries will humanity again take the bright path of socialism, and then communism

    Quote: Alexander Green
    Quote: Old26
    Now you can work - work and get more than your average salary under socialism

    It’s just that there isn’t enough “work” for everyone.

    There is such a good expression. "Who wants - looks for a way, who does not want - a reason". Among my former colleagues, there are also quite a few who, when asked to move to another job, begin to look for reasons:
    - “yes, I have a year left until retirement”
    - “so I’m already retired”
    And a dozen more of the same excuses. Here is a friend sitting (who, by the way, is a great ceramics master) at work in a budget organization, where he was paid 8-10 thousand (I don’t know now, I don’t think it’s much more), drinks coffee, goes regularly to the smoking room and if If he doesn't have a job, he surfs the Internet. Lives on bird's license in premises belonging to the theater. Where it was possible to open a ceramic workshop 20 years ago. But no. He prefers to say that someone was lucky there.
    Another sits and waits for someone to offer him the job he wants. But they don't offer it. Although if the question is making money and you are still full of strength, there are no problems. Construction above the roof. THE DESIRE NEEDS TO FIND A JOB, and not to say that “there is not enough such work for everyone”
  72. +1
    23 September 2019 22: 54
    Quote: Alexander Green
    Young people are being trained in capitalism and are already wondering: why are the bourgeoisie running wild while the workers are barely making ends meet?

    Which workers struggle to make ends meet? It would be desirable not in general terms, but more specifically. I can give as an example the salaries of several workers.
    One of them worked in garbage collection. Work starts at 3.00 am. The end of work is approximately 8.00-10.00 (depending on various factors). Work - week after week. The average salary in the region is 27 thousand rubles. They have EMNIP in the region of 32. Well, he needs money (divorced, two minors). He basically works every week - the average salary is 72-75. Some are starting to get “indignant”, why do you have 75, and we have 32. But he works 4 weeks a month, and they work 2.

    Second friend. Works in hazardous production. Already 8 years on list No. 1. In 2 years he can retire. He is now around 50-52. In retirement, his specialty will not be needed. He is already preparing a “reserve airfield” in advance. He works as a helper for a tiler. Well, at least he will receive 1000 rubles. And in the season even more. A minimum of 20 thousand in addition to pension is not the worst solution

    Third example. A friend’s company closed down where he worked. I also became a helper. This was two years ago. Nowadays he is sometimes “torn off with his arms and legs.”

    And there are hundreds, if not thousands, of such examples. Of course, in certain small towns where everything is at a standstill, workers may actually be struggling to make ends meet. But what prevents you from going to work in Moscow, the Moscow region, Leningrad? There are examples when a friend worked in the Tula area on a rotational basis (I don’t remember exactly) on the construction of a metallurgical plant. New technologies, modern. Didn't complain. Although the salary offered in the city did not suit him
    1. -1
      24 September 2019 07: 22
      Vladimir! You are absolutely right. I have a daughter, a candidate of sciences, an associate professor, she worked at a university... she received... little. Gone. I took courses... changed jobs, gained experience. Currently a sales manager for luxury sportswear. Minimum salary 50 thousand maximum unlimited; % of sales. And her colleagues stayed at the university and earn from 2,8 (!) to 14 thousand. Workers I know... two. Crane operator and welder (engineer by training). The crane operator works on the Bauer crane (56 tons, like a Tiger tank) and gets paid... oh, how much... and they walk around him like they’re around a red maiden - just work. He only vacations abroad. Türkiye... "okay then..." By the way, it fiercely hates communists. A welder welds pipes. He has his own company selling electrodes. He cooks only for those who buy his own electrodes. Here is the salary, and here is the income from the company. Yes, a plumber recently came to see me. On a Lexus, he pays for his daughter’s law school education. He says: “The pipes for the g... make the most money!” Well, I got dirty, of course, but... I cleaned everything up in a bag, sprayed it with deodorant and left. I ask - “How much per day?” He - “It happens that it’s even 10 thousand. There’s a lot of demand for me! I also work on weekends.” Here's a worker!
      1. +1
        24 September 2019 23: 15
        Quote: kalibr
        Currently a sales manager for luxury sportswear. Minimum salary 50 thousand maximum unlimited; % of sales.

        And how many such managers are needed? Once or twice I was miscalculated...and there are millions of people in need.
    2. 0
      24 September 2019 23: 02
      Quote: Old26
      Which workers struggle to make ends meet? It would be desirable not in general terms, but more specifically.

      Look at the links, people are on strike, that means something is wrong.
      http://bolshevick.org/italyanskaya-zabastovka-skoroj-pomoshhi-v-petrozavodske/#more-4929
      http://bolshevick.org/budni-kranovshhika-v-kazani/
      http://bolshevick.org/wp-content/uploads/Р-К-СиМ-№-7-8_2019.pdf
  73. +2
    24 September 2019 10: 30
    Quote: kalibr
    Vladimir! You are absolutely right. I have a daughter, a candidate of sciences, an associate professor, she worked at a university... she received... little. Gone. I took courses... changed jobs, gained experience. Currently a sales manager for luxury sportswear. Minimum salary 50 thousand maximum unlimited; % of sales. And her colleagues stayed at the university and earn from 2,8 (!) to 14 thousand. Workers I know... two. Crane operator and welder (engineer by training). The crane operator works on the Bauer crane (56 tons, like a Tiger tank) and gets paid... oh, how much... and they walk around him like they’re around a red maiden - just work. He only vacations abroad. Türkiye... "okay then..." By the way, it fiercely hates communists. A welder welds pipes. He has his own company selling electrodes. He cooks only for those who buy his own electrodes. Here is the salary, and here is the income from the company. Yes, a plumber recently came to see me. On a Lexus, he pays for his daughter’s law school education. He says: “The pipes for the g... make the most money!” Well, I got dirty, of course, but... I cleaned everything up in a bag, sprayed it with deodorant and left. I ask - “How much per day?” He - “It happens that it’s even 10 thousand. There’s a lot of demand for me! I also work on weekends.” Here's a worker!

    You are right, Vyacheslav! In such cases, I always repeat the well-known truth: who wants - looks for a way, who does not want - a reason. Anyway. “Alexander Green” took us off topic, so it’s probably better to end the discussion of salaries here.

    This is what I regret: when I was younger, I didn’t ask my grandparents about life under the occupation (the Germans were in the city for six months). Only fragments of their stories remain. Or maybe they wouldn’t have said anything. I was too young. For example, my father more or less began to say something about the war years only when I turned 40. And before that - almost nothing, or what front-line soldiers usually tell at school. And the topic of betrayal is very interesting, although very sensitive. And in fact, before the collapse of the Union, it was almost not touched upon for ideological and propaganda reasons. For the bulk, only the Vlasovites were known. Yes, those who lived in the south knew about the Chechens, Ingush and other peoples evicted from their habitats
  74. -2
    24 September 2019 16: 52
    Quote: Old26
    And the topic of betrayal is very interesting, although very sensitive. And in fact, before the collapse of the Union, it was almost not touched upon for ideological and propaganda reasons.

    Yes that's right. and It is true that the “ancestors” were silent about the past. My grandfather went through the entire civil service as a commissar for grain procurements - he went to take away grain from the food detachment. But all the stories I shot, they shot at me and how they found the secretary of the village council to whom I was going for bread hanged on a birch tree, and his scribe in the closet. And he himself was saved thanks to the cross on his neck and the royal buttons of the teacher on his uniform. What about the rest of life? Well, I gave my sister two bags of flour for her hunger... My grandmother worked in the station hospital during the war and she, like a woman, spoke a lot and from her words I wrote an article about this on VO. But again, not enough. Then my mother told me about how they were trained to become partisans and I inserted it into the novel “If Hitler took Moscow / We would die near Moscow. It says what is fiction and what is not. But these are just a couple of episodes. Apparently people were afraid , talk a lot about the past.
  75. -1
    24 September 2019 16: 55
    Quote: Alexander Green
    They don’t sing about people like you.

    Yes, I don’t want them to sing. To whom the carrot comes first, the whip comes first. It’s better for me to have everything in peace and quiet.
    1. 0
      24 September 2019 23: 05
      Quote: kalibr
      Quote: Alexander Green
      They don’t sing about people like you.

      It would be better for me to have everything in peace and quiet.

      Maxim Gorky about peace and quiet: “The stupid penguin timidly hides its fat body in the cliffs...” We have always despised such people.
  76. -1
    24 September 2019 16: 57
    But God didn’t give you two lives either. And everything we won’t know doesn’t exist at all. You will die and the entire Universe will die with you.
  77. +2
    24 September 2019 17: 12
    Quote: kalibr
    Yes that's right. and It is true that the “ancestors” were silent about the past. My grandfather went through the entire civil service as a commissar for grain procurements - he went to take away grain from the food detachment. But all the stories I shot, they shot at me and how they found the secretary of the village council to whom I was going for bread hanged on a birch tree, and his scribe in the closet. And he himself was saved thanks to the cross on his neck and the royal buttons of the teacher on his uniform. What about the rest of life? Well, I gave my sister two bags of flour for her hunger... My grandmother worked in the station hospital during the war and she, like a woman, spoke a lot and from her words I wrote an article about this on VO. But again, not enough. Then my mother told me about how they were trained to become partisans and I inserted it into the novel “If Hitler took Moscow / We would die near Moscow. It says what is fiction and what is not. But these are just a couple of episodes. Apparently people were afraid , talk a lot about the past.

    Perhaps they were afraid. But this was the unvarnished truth of eyewitnesses. And among the enemies, and among the “traitors” (policemen), there were also quite adequate people. But it was also not customary to talk about this, that the enemy could have ordinary human feelings
  78. -1
    24 September 2019 17: 24
    Quote: Old26
    And among the enemies, and among the “traitors” (policemen), there were also quite adequate people. But it was also not customary to talk about this, that the enemy could have ordinary human feelings

    Agree. And there were a lot of them sent on purpose. By the way! In my childhood, there was a popular play called “The Drummer” about one such fascist bastard who turned out to be a heroic intelligence officer.
    1. 0
      24 September 2019 23: 12
      Quote: kalibr
      In my childhood, there was a popular play called “The Drummer” about one such fascist bastard who turned out to be a heroic intelligence officer.

      You are even ready to get this dirty.
  79. -1
    24 September 2019 17: 29
    Quote: Alexander Green
    You probably haven’t read it, but in vain, it’s a very wise pedagogical story.

    In Soviet times, everyone at school read the same shit. But as for Tolstoy, then... he had a novel War and Peace in 6 volumes, and I have "Pareto's Law" also in six and the same in volume. And those who read it say that it is both an encyclopedia of Russian life and a very philosophical work. In Germany, our people read with great pleasure. The time will come - “War” will be thrown out of the school curriculum and my “Law” will be inserted.
    1. +1
      24 September 2019 22: 27
      Quote: kalibr
      In Soviet times at school everyone read the same shit

      Only this “mura” raised intelligent people, and the current program brings up cynics.

      Quote: kalibr
      The time will come - “War” will be thrown out of the school curriculum and my “Law” will be inserted.

      "War and Peace" L.N. Tolstova is immortal, and your “Pareto Law” is an opportunistic one-day butterfly
  80. -1
    24 September 2019 17: 34
    Quote: Alexander Green
    real people

    And who screwed up the USSR? The real ones, who went through... the war... who worked with Stalin... faithful, devoted... who grew up under socialism, pioneers, Komsomol members... how much more "real". But only then many of them put it on these people...
    1. +1
      24 September 2019 23: 08
      Quote: kalibr
      And who screwed up the USSR? The real ones, those who went through... the war... those who worked with Stalin... faithful, devoted... who grew up under socialism, pioneers, Komsomol members... how much more "real". But only then many of them put it on these people...

      .So these were not real. The real ones stayed true.
  81. +3
    24 September 2019 18: 06
    Quote: kalibr
    Quote: Old26
    And among the enemies, and among the “traitors” (policemen), there were also quite adequate people. But it was also not customary to talk about this, that the enemy could have ordinary human feelings

    Agree. And there were a lot of them sent on purpose. By the way! In my childhood, there was a popular play called “The Drummer” about one such fascist bastard who turned out to be a heroic intelligence officer.

    I remember. There seemed to be a movie in the mid-70s, but I don’t know if it was based on this play

    Quote: kalibr
    In Soviet times, everyone at school read the same shit.

    Sometimes even by authors whom it was too early to read. The same Dostoevsky. But it was necessary and read through force. It was good when there was a very decent library of classics at home and it was possible to read something that was not in the program
  82. +1
    25 September 2019 12: 38
    How many prisoners did we take during the war?
    https://anaga.ru/plennye-nemcy.html
  83. -1
    25 September 2019 15: 43
    Quote: Old26
    It was good when there was a very decent library of classics at home and it was possible to read something that was not in the program

    Me too. But I also wanted the entire “Library of Adventures.”
  84. -2
    25 September 2019 15: 55
    But there were a lot of them! And where did they come from? The whole top is fake...

    Quote: Alexander Green
    "War and Peace" L.N. Tolstova is immortal, and your “Pareto Law” is an opportunistic one-day butterfly

    Yes, immortal. For its time. And for ours - “Pareto’s Law” is just that. You should read it before you complain. But you are poor, so you won’t be able to buy this book, so I don’t suggest it. This reading is not for losers.
    1. 0
      25 September 2019 17: 09
      Quote: kalibr
      Yes, immortal. For its time.

      Where is the logic? If she is immortal, then she is already timeless. But I don’t even need your book for nothing, it’s an inflated law that is not supported by anything, and besides, you understand it incorrectly. I have already written to you about this many times.
  85. -2
    25 September 2019 15: 58
    Quote: Alexander Green
    You are even ready to get this dirty.

    Why get dirty? In the play, she is called a German Shepherd and is forced to strip naked in order to return incriminating photographs, but all this is just a disguise for her... heroism! This is the content of the play briefly. Our heroine, even naked, is still a heroine. So what's wrong?
    1. +1
      25 September 2019 17: 12
      Quote: kalibr
      Our heroine, even naked, is still a heroine. So what's wrong?

      Why call the heroine “German litter”? This is just cynicism on your part.
      1. 0
        25 September 2019 17: 45
        That's what they called her in the play... They broke her leg with a brick... those who didn't know her real essence.
        1. +1
          25 September 2019 17: 51
          Quote: kalibr
          That's what they called her in the play... They broke her leg with a brick... those who didn't know her real essence.

          Firstly, as far as I remember, it was called differently, and secondly, why would you call it that if you know the essence?
  86. -2
    25 September 2019 16: 01
    Quote: Alexander Green
    Maxim Gorky about peace and quiet: “The stupid penguin timidly hides its fat body in the cliffs...”

    Well, yes, but he himself lived quite well in Capri in peace and quiet and was a millionaire. I also wrote in the 80s “Long live the Great October!” They paid well for it...
    1. +1
      25 September 2019 17: 16
      Quote: kalibr
      Well, yes, but he himself lived quite well in Capri in peace and quiet and was a millionaire. I also wrote in the 80s "Long live the Great October!" They paid well for it...

      The difference is that M. Gorky gave his fees to the revolution, and you satisfied your petty bourgeois needs.
  87. -1
    25 September 2019 16: 06
    Quote: Alexander Green
    there are millions of people in need.

    Doing nothing, showing up to work with a hangover, “bashing” unpunished, and getting paid, and 13 salaries, and bonuses... That’s what they need.
    1. +1
      25 September 2019 17: 17
      Quote: kalibr
      Doing nothing, showing up to work with a hangover, “bashing” unpunished, and getting paid, and 13 salaries, and bonuses... That’s what they need.

      Well, the workers were all slandered en masse. Everything you touch gets dirty...
  88. +1
    25 September 2019 16: 34
    Quote: Alexander Green
    Quote: Old26
    Which workers struggle to make ends meet? It would be desirable not in general terms, but more specifically.

    Look at the links, people are on strike, that means something is wrong.
    http://bolshevick.org/italyanskaya-zabastovka-skoroj-pomoshhi-v-petrozavodske/#more-4929
    http://bolshevick.org/budni-kranovshhika-v-kazani/
    http://bolshevick.org/wp-content/uploads/Р-К-СиМ-№-7-8_2019.pdf

    And you will find a state where everyone would always be happy with their employers. And then, I don’t really believe in the objectivity of the “dwarf” parties that publish a newspaper in a city like Krasnoyarsk with a circulation of 5500 copies. especially when the story comes from a “nameless” crane operator. There are tens of thousands of such situations that can be told. But not all of them are a protest against the existing government. But this is by the way.
    You laughing give two or three microscopic examples and draw the conclusion based on this that the people are on strike.
    For example, we were also on strike that week. There was an Italian strike. A couple of hours before, cockroaches were poisoned in the room and we were forced to not work for a couple of hours, but to gather on the balcony and do nothing. Typical Italian strike. The computers were turned on, but we weren't working. This can also be inflated to the level of protest against the “regime”
    The crane operator complains that he arrives an hour before the foreman and cannot work. What, there is no way to resolve this situation. For some reason, my friends who do roofing do not climb onto the roof after it rains, and the foreman not only does not require them to climb onto the roof, but threatens to kick out the one who climbs....
    So your vision of the situation sometimes diverges from reality...

    Quote: Alexander Green
    In the USSR in the 70-80s in order to quarrel the peoples, there was another thing; the layman threw jokes about the Chukchi, Moldavians. In addition, they incited anti-Semitism, for which they organized a mass exodus of Jews to Israel. For this, whole institutions worked abroad.

    Did you live at that time?
    There were also a lot of jokes about Vasily Ivanovich and Brezhnev. Where to “fasten” these jokes???
    Some of my classmates went to Israel. But at the same time, I will not say that anti-Semitism was manifested against those who remained.
    Yes, the ideological war went on without stopping, and one of the directions was “reunification with the historical homeland.” There was emigration. In about 10 years from 1970 to 1980, as many as 291 people emigrated. A lot of? In relation to the country's population - just over 000%. Many or few??

    Quote: Alexander Green
    Quote: kalibr
    Currently a sales manager for luxury sportswear. Minimum salary 50 thousand maximum unlimited; % of sales.

    And how many such managers are needed? Once or twice I was miscalculated...and there are millions of people in need.

    Who is stopping these millions from looking for decent work? Do not “wait for weather from the sea”, do not expect the head of the company to knock on your door and say: “Ivan Ivanovich! We are dying without you. Please come to work with us.” If you have a desire, you can find a job. It may not be the highest paid one right away, but people with experience will be hired for such a highly paid job. And even then, not immediately to the maximum salary. If you don’t look for a job, you can say that there are millions of people willing to do this or that job.
    I have already cited myself (my beloved) as an example laughing ). For the first year and a half in the new place, the salary was not very high. I had to “run around” a lot, doing not the most responsible work. But everything passes. Now the average salary is also about 50. But my colleagues from the budget, to whom I offered it, they all unanimously said, “what the hell”... Well, let them sit on the salary that the state employees have...

    Quote: Alexander Green
    Quote: kalibr
    In my childhood, there was a popular play called “The Drummer” about one such fascist bastard who turned out to be a heroic intelligence officer.

    You are even ready to get this dirty.

    Get dirty? Have you watched this play yourself (or listened to the radio show)? It talked about a heroine intelligence officer who went to work as a translator for the Gestapo on instructions from the underground. And most importantly. After the liberation of the city, she continued to play this role, despite the contempt of the townspeople, since she had to be bait for German agents left in the city. A work about a man who was ready to become an object of contempt in order to complete a task...
    1. +1
      25 September 2019 17: 48
      Quote: Old26
      I don’t really believe in the objectivity of the “dwarf” parties that publish a newspaper in a city like Krasnoyarsk with a circulation of 5500 copies. especially when the story comes from a “nameless” crane operator. There are tens of thousands of such situations

      Believe it or not, the pro-government media are silent about this, so the “Kalik parties” have to write about it so that the people know what is really happening.

      Quote: Old26
      There were also a lot of jokes about Vasily Ivanovich and Brezhnev. Where to “fasten” these jokes???

      And these jokes were also thrown at us.

      Quote: Old26
      There was emigration. In about 10 years from 1970 to 1980, as many as 291 people emigrated. A lot of? In relation to the country's population - just over 000%. Many or few??

      Maybe not much, but this raised another wave of anti-Semitism, so that many began to hide their nationality.

      Quote: Old26
      If you have a desire, you can find a job. It may not be the highest paid one right away, but people with experience will be hired for such a highly paid job.

      If it’s so easy to find work everywhere, then why are small towns and villages dying out?
      And where can young people gain experience to get a job in their specialty if several years of work experience is required everywhere?

      Quote: Old26
      It talked about a heroine intelligence officer who went to work as a translator for the Gestapo on instructions from the underground.

      So do you approve of Shpakovsky calling the heroine “German litter”?
      1. -1
        25 September 2019 18: 20
        What do you call a female person who went to work for the Germans and hung out with German officers? During the course of the play, the residents of the city did not know that she was “something else”... Surely they used stronger words.
        1. +1
          25 September 2019 22: 29
          Quote: kalibr
          What do you call a female person who went to work for the Germans and hung out with German officers? During the course of the play, the residents of the city did not know that she was “something else”... Surely they used stronger words.

          But you, unlike the residents of the town, know the truth, and besides, you didn’t hold a candle, for example, I think that she dynamized the Germans.
  89. -1
    25 September 2019 17: 44
    Quote: Alexander Green
    M. Gorky donated his fees to the revolution

    So he gave everything away... didn’t keep anything for himself? And how did he maintain the villa, and the servants...
    1. +1
      25 September 2019 22: 37
      Quote: kalibr
      So he gave everything away... didn’t keep anything for himself? And how did he maintain the villa, and the servants...

      Well, Gorky was spoiled too.... And so was the villa with its servants... Remember the conversation between Herbert Wells and V.I. Lenin, where he says: “How is it that Gorky has only one suit...”
  90. -1
    25 September 2019 17: 49
    It’s all of you, beggars, “I didn’t count it, but I condemn it!”
    1. +1
      25 September 2019 22: 41
      Quote: kalibr
      It’s all of you, beggars, “I didn’t count it, but I condemn it!”

      Are you talking about people like you, the poor in spirit?
  91. 0
    25 September 2019 17: 57
    Quote: Alexander Green
    is being trained in capitalism and is already thinking

    Everything passes and passes, everything is thought about and thought about... and then he says, and... when?
    1. +1
      25 September 2019 22: 44
      Quote: kalibr
      Everything passes and passes, everything is thought about and thought about... and then he says, and... when?

      It’s okay, a Russian man takes a long time to charge, but he’s lucky quickly, so all the most interesting things are still ahead of us.
  92. -1
    25 September 2019 17: 58
    Quote: Alexander Green
    And these jokes were also thrown at us.

    What a stupid people we are. They threw everything at him... I couldn’t come up with anything myself!
    1. +1
      25 September 2019 22: 49
      Quote: kalibr
      What a stupid people we are. They threw everything at him... I couldn’t come up with anything myself!

      The people are not stupid, they just don’t have time to do stupid things, they worked, it was dissidents and intellectuals who came up with myths in the kitchen.
  93. -1
    25 September 2019 18: 08
    Quote: Alexander Green
    bourgeois needs

    And communism promises everyone delicious food... And a hybrid of mental and physical labor. That means I already have communism! I worked at the dacha - I wrote an imperishable book, I ate deliciously, I slept... I wrote again... I worked again... And everything is there and everything is accessible. Communism!
    1. +1
      25 September 2019 22: 53
      Quote: kalibr
      And communism promises everyone delicious food...

      What a shame, at least open your notes on the History of the CPSU, isn’t that how the basic law of communism is written there... Still, it’s good that you were kicked out of retirement, you won’t pick the brains of students anymore.
  94. +3
    25 September 2019 18: 34
    Quote: Alexander Green
    Believe it or not, the pro-government media are silent about this, so the “Kalik parties” have to write about it so that the people know what is really happening.

    Silenced. But in addition to the official media, there is also the so-called. “word of mouth”, which conveys to people, albeit their own, but interpretation of events. And if there was some event, people in the city will know. But I don’t know who will believe in the publication of such a party. In our country, sometimes people do not blindly believe even the publications of those parties in the Duma.
    People have already had enough of revelations.

    Quote: Alexander Green
    And these jokes were also thrown at us.

    And what? Did it incite class hatred? Hatred towards the leader of the party and state and the hero of the Civil War? Of course no. How jokes about Chukchi, Georgians, Moldovans and others were not inciting national hatred

    Quote: Alexander Green
    Maybe not much, but this raised another wave of anti-Semitism, so that many began to hide their nationality.

    Is it really that bad? And they began to hide their nationality. I had a friend who graduated from Novocherkassk Polytechnic in 78. I got a job at the Novocherkassk State District Power Plant. I didn't change my last name. He remained the same as Rabinovich. And after 2-3 years he became more than just an engineer on shift... Another one went to Israel. And in relation to both him and his, so to speak, “relatives” by nationality, there were no noticeable signs of anti-Semitism.
    no, of course, somewhere near the garage, the alcoholic guys, having drunk another bottle of Vera Mikhailovna, could “trample the drill” on the Jews, blaming them for all the troubles of Russia. But even if this happened, it was only everyday cases. No splash was noticed....

    Quote: Alexander Green
    If it’s so easy to find work everywhere, then why are small towns and villages dying out?
    And where can young people gain experience to get a job in their specialty if several years of work experience is required everywhere?

    There are such cases. At the same time, people are moving to work in larger cities. In such cities, it is sometimes really difficult to find a job when there was one city-forming enterprise and it folded. Then everyone decides for themselves what to do. Sitting half-starved or looking for work in a neighboring city.
    The youth? There are sometimes problems with young people that seem insurmountable on the surface. In reality, if you graduated from an engineering university, then no one will welcome you with open arms to an already established, operating enterprise. And immediately to the maximum salary. But people find options. We have such an enterprise, Monocrystal. It’s quite difficult to get into it, and they have a high turnover. But no one immediately after college, if he is normal, does not require the maximum. They go to the position of worker (operator) of machines. After some time of work, they either move to an engineering position, or continue to work as a “worker”, since the salary there is usually higher than that of engineers.
    Others in the last two years are transferred to correspondence courses and go to work for the same MTS in their area (village). By the time he graduates, he is already an accomplished specialist.

    Quote: Alexander Green
    Do you approve of the fact that Shpakovsky called the heroine “German litter”?

    And you can’t remove the words from the song. According to the plot, it was not called anything other than “German litter”. And everything was revealed only at the moment of her death, almost in the last minutes of the play (performance). And what Shpakovsky should have called it. He outlined the plot in a nutshell
    1. +1
      25 September 2019 18: 50
      //I got a job at the Novocherkassk State District Power Plant. I didn't change my last name. He remained the same as Rabinovich. And after 2-3 years he became more than just an engineer on shift... Another one went to Israel. And in relation to both him and his, so to speak, “relatives” by nationality, there were no noticeable signs of anti-Semitism.
      no, of course, somewhere near the garage, the alcoholic guys, having drunk another bottle of Vera Mikhailovna, could “trample the drill” on the Jews, blaming them for all the troubles of Russia //
      And here in the Promised Land, Russophobia is very harmful to health. In everyday communication for teeth. Among politicians now for their reputation.
      PS. Bibi did it with yours. To spite some. laughing
    2. 0
      25 September 2019 23: 23
      Quote: Old26
      People have already had enough of revelations.

      This is not exposure, this is class struggle, and it cannot be canceled, it is only intensifying.

      Quote: Old26
      No splash was noticed.

      Is this anti-Semitism? Don’t you know that as a result of the mass exodus of Jews to Israel, their admission to universities and the occupation of certain positions began to be limited?

      Quote: Old26
      And what Shpakovsky should have called it. He outlined the plot in a nutshell

      You are a real lawyer, but you don’t understand the main thing, that Shpakovsky didn’t outline the plot in a nutshell, but crap on the heroine, thanks to whom he now lives. This can't be forgiven...

      I’m already tired of arguing with you about work, you have a high salary, you still don’t understand this - because... being determines consciousness, so I will only talk about anecdotes about the leaders and heroes of the civil war.

      It was an ordinary ideological sabotage, it seemed like nothing terrible: they told a joke, laughed at the leader or hero, and they themselves seemed to rise up, but there was no more respect for the authorities and for the heroes, and the past was no longer the same... and the country too .... Only it all ended sadly - we lost the USSR.
  95. -1
    25 September 2019 20: 54
    When there is not enough “cannon fodder”, why think about the “purity of the nation” laughing It’s a shame that the unstable fighters of the Red Army in 1941 not only reduced the number of “ours”, but also replenished the “Non-ours”. And the law of large numbers worked. Millions of soldiers were captured (including due to the incompetence and miscalculations of the Headquarters and the command..), and even if the percentage of these millions is small, in the ROA and so on. tens of thousands left. What if only tens of thousands were captured? There were several thousand, or even hundreds, of those who defected.
  96. -1
    25 September 2019 21: 08
    Quote: xomaNN
    There were several thousand, or even hundreds, of those who defected.

    Here you are absolutely right. The consequences of the “experiment” in our country, alas, are terrible in all respects. Although we don’t know if the war would have happened in a different situation and how many prisoners there would have been then. Although we can reasonably assume a lot of things!
  97. 0
    26 September 2019 06: 26
    Clearly, it doesn’t promise tasty food. He promises everyone rations... so that everyone has the same amount. But still, someone will demand more rations. And someone will say - “Why should he?”
  98. -1
    26 September 2019 06: 29
    Quote: Alexander Green
    he simply has no time to do nonsense, he worked,

    And working! And you want him to read Marx and Lenin... He has no time to deal with nonsense today.
  99. -1
    26 September 2019 06: 35
    You are all about carts... But now the era is different... who will go against a six-barreled machine gun? There were still chances against Maxim... Against the M134 Minigun - no. But it’s easier for you - take comfort
  100. +3
    26 September 2019 11: 15
    Quote: kalibr
    This is not exposure, this is class struggle, and it cannot be canceled, it is only intensifying.

    Over the past 30-35 years, the really serious manifestations of the class struggle were the miners' strikes at the border of the 80s and 90s. Everything else is local processes. It’s not heard that the strike of the same construction workers or anyone else was supported even within the city. Not to mention the district, region. And in the neighboring region... And all these notes about the so-called “class struggle” in “micro-newspapers” look from the point of view of the population - precisely as a kind of exposure, but not as a manifestation of the “class struggle”. Well, a strike means some problems with the employer, but nothing more. Don't look at the world through rose-colored glasses. There is no class struggle now and it is unlikely there ever will be. Conflicts between employers and employees do not lead to class struggle. The workers do not make political demands. Only economic (household). What kind of class struggle is this without political demands for the “exploiting class?” And there is no need to say that someone somewhere is talking at rallies about the resignation of the current president. This is not the “class struggle” you so dearly love, but an ordinary, meaningless talking shop...

    Quote: Alexander Green
    Is this anti-Semitism? Don’t you know that as a result of the mass exodus of Jews to Israel, their admission to universities and the occupation of certain positions began to be limited?

    What are you saying??? Was it really that limited? I entered Novocherkassk Polytechnic in 1972. There was a guy from Odessa in the same group with me. Jew. The only question that was asked to him was why he entered Novocherkassk and not Simferopol. So I was asked the same question. Because in my hometown there was also a polytechnic school, but I was not satisfied with the specialty. And as far as I remember, my roommate (we lived in an apartment) had a lot of friends. Some are Jews from Odessa, some from other cities. In the neighboring design bureau I knew several people who, within 5-10 years, rose to the position of head of department, not to mention department heads and leading designers. And no one oppressed them. And KB - sorry, they were "boxes".

    Quote: Alexander Green
    You are a real lawyer, but you don’t understand the main thing, that Shpakovsky didn’t outline the plot in a nutshell, but crap on the heroine, thanks to whom he now lives. This can't be forgiven...

    Certainly. Nobody understands anything except you. You are like a beacon, you know everything and about everything. By the way, speaking about the plot, I would, in the same way as Shpakovsky, describe it as “German litter”. For the main idea of ​​the performance (play) was that a person was ready to be considered a traitor, a “German litter” for the sake of a higher goal. Apparently, you haven’t even seen this performance, but you know how to hang labels perfectly. Here at VO I don’t agree with everyone’s opinions on political issues, but this does not mean that I consider my point of view the only correct one. And evaluations of literary characters are everyone’s right. I don’t think that Shpakovsky insulted Nila.

    Quote: Alexander Green
    I’m already tired of arguing with you about work, you have a high salary, you still don’t understand this - because... being determines consciousness, so I will only talk about anecdotes about the leaders and heroes of the civil war.

    Don't understand. Well, of course. Where are we, poor and poor? Yes, quite high. Because he wanted to have a big salary and left a “cushy” budget organization. Where it was possible to receive (at the level of 2012-2014) 8000 rubles and do nothing for days, simulating vigorous activity in front of management. Sitting online all day long or watching a movie, going out to smoke or drink coffee (and sometimes cognac). Many of my colleagues have remained at this level. I preferred that my family would not count rubles and pennies from paycheck to paycheck, but could afford much of what they could not afford before. At least even at the everyday level. There is an opportunity to take better care of your health. But I Passed, through a meager salary and at 60 years after I was “retired” I was able to find myself. If there was a desire... And I really don’t understand those who only talk about their disastrous, beggarly situation, without trying to correct it. Of course there is and will be a category of people who WILL NOT improve your financial situation due to age or illness. And I don’t understand how a healthy, 30-40-year-old man sits at home, essentially on his mother’s neck, and cannot get a job for three years. That means one thing - DOES NOT WANT. And he is satisfied with this state of affairs...

    Quote: Alexander Green
    It was an ordinary ideological sabotage, it seemed like nothing terrible: they told a joke, laughed at the leader or hero, and they themselves seemed to rise up, but there was no more respect for the authorities and for the heroes, and the past was no longer the same... and the country too .... Only it all ended sadly - we lost the USSR.

    Do you know everything for everyone? This did not decrease the respect for the hero of the Civil War. Regarding “dear and beloved Leonid Ilyich” - so for the last 5-7 he was in a state of “childhood”. Respect for authority? The authorities had to earn this respect, the respect of their citizens. After almost 20 years of the reign of Leonid Ilyich, there was a year and a half reign of Yuri Vladimirovich. And he “forced himself to be respected” by trying to eliminate all the chaos that was going on in the country. The next leader was an absolutely colorless person. Then a young, ambitious leader came to power. As one of our comedians said about him: "He walks on his own, he talks on his own". For the first couple of years, the country lived in a state of, if not euphoria, then close to it. And then everything went downhill. It became clear that this leader was an ordinary “talker”, incapable of making the necessary, albeit tough, decisions. As a result of the activities of two destructive elements, the country was led to collapse. And you are talking about respect for authority. People's respect must be earned. And jokes... They appear about leaders when leaders want to be worshiped, not respected. They judge by deeds, not by words
    1. +1
      26 September 2019 20: 46
      Quote: Old26
      There is no class struggle now and it is unlikely there ever will be.

      Unfortunately, the well-fed and contented man in the street cannot understand the dialectics of the class struggle. The point is that as long as classes exist, class struggle is inevitable. And it was not even Marx who came up with this, but bourgeois scientists.

      IN AND. Lenin even tested Marxists this way. He wrote, "A Marxist is only one who extends the recognition of class struggle to the recognition of the dictatorship of the proletariat." (PSS, T.33, P.375)

      Class struggle is the struggle of one part of the people against another, the struggle of the mass of disenfranchised, oppressed workers against the privileged, oppressors and parasites, the struggle of hired workers or proletarians against the owners or the bourgeoisie.

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