Military Review

The dates for the construction of the first Russian helicopter carriers

141
Information that Russia is preparing to begin construction of its own universal landing ships (UDC helicopter carriers) has found confirmation. Recall that Moscow previously planned to buy such ships for the Russian Navy from the French, but, as you know, the decision of the then French president Hollande prevented against the background of anti-Russian sanctions. As a result, the Mistral helicopter carriers bought Egypt.


The dates for the construction of the first Russian helicopter carriers

At the construction of the helicopter carrier Sevastopol, which eventually ended up in the Egyptian Navy


News agency TASS referring to sources in the industry (specific sources are not named) reports that the UDC will be laid as early as next year. Construction will be carried out in the Crimea - at the Zaliv shipyard. The lead helicopter carrier is planned to be delivered the fleet until the end of 2027 - as part of the current state program for the rearmament and modernization of the army and navy. They plan to complete the serial UDC by 2030.

It is noted that the laying ceremony of two Russian universal landing ships will be held in May 2020.

What is known about the characteristics of future ships for the Russian Navy?

TASS information sources note that the displacement of each will not exceed 15-thousand tons. The number of helicopters of various classes that ships will be able to take on board is 10 units. Ships will be built with docking chambers for landing boats.

It is added that the technical project is in the final stages of development and they plan to sign a contract in the near future.

If this kind of construction begins, then this will be the first case of the creation of UDC in Russia.
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  1. KVU-NSVD
    KVU-NSVD 11 September 2019 06: 26
    +6
    good news. Does the Zaliv have the capacity to build two ships at once, 15 thousand tons each?
    1. RussianUzbek
      RussianUzbek 11 September 2019 06: 34
      +10
      According to the state defense order, they will have to hold tenders and if they say "Zaliv" then they are ready. There is still paperwork before the bookmark ...
      1. Tiksi-3
        Tiksi-3 11 September 2019 06: 48
        -3
        Quote: RussianUzbek
        There paperwork to bookmark more ....

        Paperwork has already been completed at 95%, and it is correct that it will be built in Crimea and most likely will go to the Black Sea Fleet - after all, the Black Sea Fleet is the main artery with Tartus. In addition, they will be thoroughly run in .... the question is only about turbines and weapons, most likely only air defense and PLO + maybe art, an open question on turbines .... they aren’t enough for the Gorshkov series ... ..will we wait on the coffee grounds?)))
        1. RussianUzbek
          RussianUzbek 11 September 2019 06: 50
          +1
          Think paperwork is solely in CD?
          1. Tiksi-3
            Tiksi-3 11 September 2019 07: 02
            +3
            Quote: RussianUzbek
            Think paperwork is solely in CD?


            no, I don’t think so, but what exactly do you think when you say that there is still a lot of paper work? Do you know which project is in production? or are you directly related to design bureau? I have a friend, he deals with this very topic ... ...
            1. RussianUzbek
              RussianUzbek 11 September 2019 07: 04
              +2
              I work in the GOZ system and imagine what it is to participate in tenders ... Well, and not only.
              1. Tiksi-3
                Tiksi-3 11 September 2019 07: 08
                +3
                Quote: RussianUzbek
                system GOZ and imagine what it is to bid.

                it is clear, but since everything has already been decided specifically (plant-project-contractors), then I think the tender has already been "resolved"
          2. Zhan
            Zhan 11 September 2019 08: 28
            +1
            Quote: RussianUzbek
            Think paperwork is solely in CD?

            Of course not ! So for this, there is executive documentation already at the construction stage. What would then UDC-M build. As usual, theory and practice, two moody girls .. hi
            1. The black
              The black 11 September 2019 09: 23
              +7
              Strange throwings of MO - necessary, not necessary, oops - again necessary. request
              1. Marconi41
                Marconi41 11 September 2019 11: 18
                +8
                Quote: Black
                Strange throwings of MO - necessary, not necessary, oops - again necessary. request

                Yes, it was always necessary! But when it doesn’t work out, they say that they didn’t really want to. On this subject, we are even inferior to Brazil. If only not another Gren laid.
        2. Artemiy_2
          Artemiy_2 11 September 2019 07: 20
          +1
          It is unlikely that they will be at the Black Sea Fleet. Most likely they will leave for the Pacific Fleet. After all, the Mistals originally planned there
          1. Marconi41
            Marconi41 11 September 2019 11: 19
            +1
            Quote: Artemiy_2
            It is unlikely that they will be at the Black Sea Fleet. Most likely they will leave for the Pacific Fleet. After all, the Mistals originally planned there

            They can be divided in half. That would be even better.
          2. NEOZ
            NEOZ 11 September 2019 13: 59
            +1
            Quote: Artemiy_2
            It is unlikely that they will be at the Black Sea Fleet.

            why do you think so?
            Quote: Artemiy_2
            Most likely they will leave for the Pacific Fleet.

            why did you come to this conclusion?
            1. Artemiy_2
              Artemiy_2 11 September 2019 15: 00
              0
              Because the Mistrals were planned for the Pacific Ocean
        3. Alexandra
          Alexandra 11 September 2019 22: 34
          +2
          Turbines are not needed for a recreation center with a displacement of 15 thousand tons.
          1. Mityay65
            Mityay65 12 September 2019 14: 36
            -2
            no turbines needed.

            Yes, a diesel would look ... Or a diesel electric ship ...
            Or gas piston ..
            We need a modern power plant, more for these "battle ferries" there is a fashion (probably before the first war, where they will reveal their potential) request and they will need to be sold ...
    2. svp67
      svp67 11 September 2019 06: 58
      +6
      Quote: KVU-NSVD
      Does the Zaliv have the capacity to build two ships at once, 15 thousand tons each?

      In any case, it has the largest dock, on the Black Sea coast, and there is nothing else here, of this size, yet. Here are just 15 is not enough. Or it will be experienced ships, and according to their results of operation, already a series of something more powerful will go. And of course I would like for VTOL to be developed for him
      1. KVU-NSVD
        KVU-NSVD 11 September 2019 07: 06
        +4
        Quote: svp67
        Here are just 15 is not enough.

        I personally have a feeling that they are moving towards the formation of aircraft carriers in the USSR — remember Moscow first, and then .. So here is Gren, modified enlarged descendants, and now there are helicopter carriers of 15 thousand each. Although I do not insist on my innocence - it just happened in my head to generalize.
      2. New Year day
        New Year day 11 September 2019 09: 50
        +3
        Quote: svp67
        it has the largest dock on the Black Sea coast and other we have there

        maybe the shipyard of Kerch will become a substitute for the shipyards of Nikolaev
      3. Igor V
        Igor V 11 September 2019 12: 18
        0
        Quote: svp67
        Anyway, it has the largest dock

        As long as the slipway is needed, the dock will be subsequently. laughing
      4. NEOZ
        NEOZ 11 September 2019 14: 03
        +1
        Quote: svp67
        And of course I would like for VTOL to be developed for him

        spend so much resources for 20 cars with trimmed characteristics?
      5. alexmach
        alexmach 11 September 2019 22: 29
        0
        Here are just 15 is not enough.

        Is our answer "Izumo"?
      6. Alexandra
        Alexandra 11 September 2019 22: 37
        0
        About 15 thousand tons of displacement fit approximately this DVKD:



        VTOL aircraft on a recreation center with a displacement of 15 thousand tons are not placed.
    3. Gardamir
      Gardamir 11 September 2019 07: 03
      0
      good news
      To promise is not to marry. That way.
      https://topwar.ru/162297-tak-poletim-ili-proletim.html
      1. KVU-NSVD
        KVU-NSVD 11 September 2019 07: 08
        +8
        Quote: Gardamir
        To promise is not to marry. That way.

        Didn’t I expect another from you, Gardamir?
        1. Gardamir
          Gardamir 11 September 2019 07: 29
          0
          and did not expect another?
          Does the case have anything to say? Or didn’t you leave kindergarten age?
          Such articles go by a jamb. Soon ... So tell us about these really coming soon. Anticipating your message, I’ll say that you are the agent of the State Department, making you rejoice at what is not in nature
          1. KVU-NSVD
            KVU-NSVD 11 September 2019 07: 44
            +7
            Quote: Gardamir
            Anticipating your message, I’ll say that you are the agent of the State Department, making you rejoice at what is not in nature

            laughing laughing laughing Turn on logic - If I rejoice at things that do not exist, then you also predict the failure of exactly the same things that do not exist. So why the viciousness and controversy? time will put everything in its place. Wish you hello hi
          2. NEOZ
            NEOZ 11 September 2019 14: 04
            0
            Quote: Gardamir
            State Department agent, forcing to rejoice at what is not in nature

            it is a disguise of true intentions.
    4. Civil
      Civil 11 September 2019 07: 20
      -2
      It is immediately necessary to build an ice class for the NORTHERN seas. We have almost no others. And it is useless to have two such barges in the Black Sea. Immediately with a heated deck, closed lifts, improved seaworthiness.
      1. The Little Humpbacked Horse
        The Little Humpbacked Horse 11 September 2019 10: 23
        +1
        Quote: Civil
        It is immediately necessary to build an ice class for the NORTHERN seas. We have almost no others. And it is useless to have two such barges in the Black Sea. Directly with heated deck


        To warm the deck you need a nuclear reactor, because the power of the ship's boiler is not always enough even to warm the tanks on tankers
      2. cormorant
        cormorant 11 September 2019 11: 19
        +4
        Where are you going to land in the North Seas? Will we capture Norway? BDK there is enough for the eyes. "5th Mediterranean squadron" needs to be restored soldier
      3. NEOZ
        NEOZ 11 September 2019 14: 11
        0
        Quote: Civil
        for the NORTHERN SEAS. We have almost no others.

        are you going to land on your coast?
        or will the landing be advanced from the northern seas?
    5. Edward Vashchenko
      Edward Vashchenko 11 September 2019 07: 50
      +4
      Very good news, from the point of view of a reasonable approach in shipbuilding, after all, the Gulf - from the point of view of "iron" was building a super-tanker.
      In addition, with the loss of Nikolaev in Russia, the only normal place remained, the fleet still needs to be built in the south, St. Petersburg capacities are much inferior in terms of area and climatic conditions.
      But there are questions regarding the capacities, and not only from the point of view of the stocks, I think you can lay down two at once - the area allows, but the qualification of the entire infrastructure requires a major upgrade.
      From personnel to equipment. Now there is compensation due to shipbuilders from other factories in Russia.
      The Gulf did not build warships of this scale, a supertanker, an atomic lighter carrier - yes. Warriors - only patrol boats, such as the flagship of the unremarkable, with the name "frigate" Sagaidachny, in fact - a patrol ship for the PW of the KGB of the USSR.
      I repeat, it is more difficult with infrastructure, in Soviet times, in Kerch, if there were not enough specialists in the Gulf, for example, high-class turners, orders were placed at Ship repair yards, now there is nowhere to place them - all production is in ruins, and experts, if left, is it harmful? to the machines will.
      To understand - a gigantic production - the turners work on the CNC, and when it is necessary to release complex single parts, their level is not sufficient, the CNC will not pull, something like that.
      Generally, a lot of questions, but the news is encouraging.
      What I don’t like — eternal announcements — but where is secrecy ?, let’s let us go to the water - and Hurray!
      1. KCA
        KCA 11 September 2019 08: 36
        0
        Did you see if the "Northern Sea Route" was really built in Kerch as soon as the Turks released it from the Black Sea, or were they dragging the completion to St. Petersburg or Murmansk without YSU?
        1. Avior
          Avior 11 September 2019 09: 05
          +2
          YaSU in no way affects the passage of the straits, the convention was adopted in 1936
          1. New Year day
            New Year day 11 September 2019 09: 52
            +1
            Quote: Avior
            YaSU in no way affects the passage of the straits, the convention was adopted in 1936

            when supertankers were built, their sizes were chosen specifically so that the ship could pass through the Bosphorus and Dardanelles.
            1. Avior
              Avior 11 September 2019 10: 19
              0
              if this problem existed, it was not because of Yasu or convention. There are no restrictions on these criteria
          2. KCA
            KCA 11 September 2019 10: 21
            +2
            In addition to the Montreux Convention, there are also sanitary standards in Turkey, which prohibit passage of straits to ships and ships with nuclear fuel, as well as the presence of nuclear fuel or waste on board, and there are also a lot of restrictions, no longer with non-nuclear fuel, such as oil or gas carriers
            1. Avior
              Avior 11 September 2019 10: 26
              +1
              no sanitary norms of Turkey, except generally accepted, can not contradict the conventions and limit them more than in the convention, they can- it has a status higher than any domestic laws.
              1. NEOZ
                NEOZ 11 September 2019 14: 55
                0
                Quote: Avior
                than in the convention, they cannot, it has a status higher than any internal laws.

                fact! otherwise, the Turks can say that any vessel with a toilet harms the ecology of Turkey!
          3. Alf
            Alf 11 September 2019 18: 52
            0
            Quote: Avior
            YaSU in no way affects the passage of the straits, the convention was adopted in 1936

            Logically, in 1936, nuclear weapons systems did not even exist in theory. Not prohibited, then allowed.
        2. Edward Vashchenko
          Edward Vashchenko 11 September 2019 09: 46
          +1
          "Sevmorput" was without YSU, it was installed in St. Petersburg, then there was a big scandal, the Turks - "our partners" in life, were very indignant, perestroika began, so they went this way: "iron" in Kerch, power - in Leningrad.
          1. KCA
            KCA 11 September 2019 10: 16
            0
            Well, as I expected, in tow they dragged to Peter
          2. Mityay65
            Mityay65 12 September 2019 22: 19
            -1
            iron "in Kerch, power - in Leningrad

            Could you clarify about "power - in Leningrad". As far as I know, all the work was done in Kerch, including on the power plant.
            And along the passage of the straits, the infa from the Internet (including Vicki) is such that on the Odessa-Vietnam line "Sevmorput" made flights as a container ship.
            1. Edward Vashchenko
              Edward Vashchenko 13 September 2019 00: 25
              +2
              Good evening Dmitry,
              this information is from memory.

              There was a scandal - perestroika was in full swing, but now I also checked - there is no information on the internet. Maybe then our ignored the scandal, but, I repeat what I remember.
              Indeed: walked from Odessa through the straits.
              Maybe I was wrong, then I apologize.
    6. AlexVas44
      AlexVas44 11 September 2019 08: 28
      +1
      "Zaliv" has the ability to build ships up to 300m long and up to 50m wide, which makes it possible to build ships with a displacement of more than 150 thousand tons. (information from RIA Novosti)
      1. KVU-NSVD
        KVU-NSVD 11 September 2019 08: 37
        0
        The competencies necessary for the construction of ships include not only appropriate, appropriate sizes of places for construction, but also workers of the appropriate qualifications, engineering and technical staff of relevant experience, a fleet of relevant characteristics, experience in building ships of the corresponding destination, commercial and production chains of the corresponding assortment, and so on. That's what my question was about, and not about the presence of docks and stocks - it’s clear that this is something. hi
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          Edward Vashchenko 11 September 2019 09: 52
          +3
          There are questions in this, but he wrote about the problems above, many to solve for a long time, it is clear that the equipment on the Gulf of the late USSR, that did not pull apart during the non-land, etc.
          If I’m not mistaken in picking something, then now there is some kind of self-propelled drift on the stocks.
          The specialists came from Russia, the level of engineering and technology was probably almost nonexistent, a distant relative in Ukraine left to work at Turkish factories, now he is trying to return, but as usual: salary issues, etc.
          Often people who manage our defense industry are far from management.
          There are some kind of journalists. There would be no trouble if they tried to figure out the profession, listened to the pros, and not PR.
          Everything can be corrected - it takes time and the willpower of the leadership.
      2. Mityay65
        Mityay65 12 September 2019 22: 25
        0
        up to 300m long and up to 50m wide

        Interestingly, the dimensions of the passage under the Kerch bridge will not be an obstacle for ships of this size?
    7. AAK
      AAK 11 September 2019 08: 34
      +4
      Under the USSR, Zaliv built ships up to rank 1 BOD (projects 1134a / b, 1135) inclusive, as well as tankers up to 150 tons (like Mir, Pobeda), some of the capacities still remained, although the equipment is far from new. By 000, a railway connection will open across the bridge, so that it will already be possible to carry metal onto the hulls, as well as engines, equipment, etc.
      1. KCA
        KCA 11 September 2019 10: 38
        0
        I think that in case of great need, anything will be transported across the bridge now, one branch has been working for a long time, though in the technical mode, but it works
    8. Vol4ara
      Vol4ara 11 September 2019 09: 43
      +5
      Eeee easier to take it easier ... And where is the traditional howl that rises when touching the topic of the mistral and udk in general, that we are not going to fight with anyone and we have nowhere to land, we are not Omerika
      1. KVU-NSVD
        KVU-NSVD 11 September 2019 09: 49
        +9
        Quote: Vol4ara
        Eeee easier to take it easier ... And where is the traditional howl that rises when touching the topic of the mistral and udk in general, that we are not going to fight with anyone and we have nowhere to land, we are not Omerika

        So after all, we are talking about our UDC - they are correct, peaceful, and generally consist of human-loving mollecules.
        We have clear reasons.
        We have heroic scouts
        They have damned spies .. feel
        1. Kaetani
          Kaetani 11 September 2019 22: 48
          0
          Cool and beautiful answer)))
    9. New Year day
      New Year day 11 September 2019 09: 48
      +3
      Quote: KVU-NSVD
      Does the Zaliv have the capacity to build two ships at once, 15 thousand tons each?

      I don’t know now, but under the Soviet Union, in 1974, I built the super tanker “Crimea”:
      The length of the tanker is 295 m, the width is 45 m, the side height is 25,4 m, the draft is 17 m,
      displacement - 180 thousand tons, deadweight - 150 500 tons,
      carrying capacity - 143 t,
      Then the Kavkaz, Kuban, and Kuzbass supertankers were built. A little later the next giant tanker Kryvbass went to sea trials.
    10. Sayan
      Sayan 11 September 2019 09: 57
      +3
      Quote: KVU-NSVD
      good news. Does the Zaliv have the capacity to build two ships at once, 15 thousand tons each?

      That’s enough power, but there are problems with specialists - it’s just not enough
      1. Piramidon
        Piramidon 11 September 2019 10: 15
        0
        Quote: Sayan
        That’s enough power, but there are problems with specialists - it’s just not enough

        Specialists will be trained. As long as it comes to building the UDC, you can not only graduate from vocational schools, but also get a couple of higher educations.
        1. alexmach
          alexmach 11 September 2019 23: 34
          0
          Specialists will be trained

          1. Who will teach?
          2. Where will they train, vocational schools still remain?
          3. Who will be trained? Who will go to study there?
          1. Piramidon
            Piramidon 12 September 2019 11: 07
            0
            Quote: alexmach
            Specialists will be trained

            1. Who will teach?
            2. Where will they train, vocational schools still remain?
            3. Who will be trained? Who will go to study there?

            In our city, vocational schools are still preserved, although they are called colleges. And people go to study there and, naturally, there are those who teach them.
            1. alexmach
              alexmach 12 September 2019 11: 16
              0
              And what do these colleges teach? Are trainers and welders or economists and accountants trained?
              1. Piramidon
                Piramidon 12 September 2019 11: 52
                +1
                My friend’s granddaughter is studying as a seamstress or cutter.
    11. PROXOR
      PROXOR 11 September 2019 10: 23
      0
      The question is different. What project will go into construction? It is a pity that these UDCs are small. Mistrals reach the full 30000t.
      1. Alexandra
        Alexandra 11 September 2019 22: 29
        0
        "Mistral" - DVKD with a total displacement of less than 23 thousand tons.

        1. PROXOR
          PROXOR 13 September 2019 15: 51
          0
          I'm talking about curb displacement.
          1. Alexandra
            Alexandra 6 January 2020 00: 40
            0
            The ultimate (and not "equipped" or "full") displacement is 32300 tons with water-filled ballast tanks and a docking chamber.
  2. evgen1221
    evgen1221 11 September 2019 06: 28
    +4
    The news is good, but I would like to hear it un-announced, and it will be built sometime, but it will be built, put into operation and so on from this series. The perception of the state is somehow higher in the second case.
  3. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 11 September 2019 06: 43
    +1
    Wow scale. Yes, and in the Crimea. Well, I would like to get a couple of these, not small ones. Helicopters to be found. Is that why they started talking about vertical take-off aircraft? For them, basing on such ships is quite ...
    1. AAK
      AAK 11 September 2019 08: 35
      +1
      Indeed, colleague, the topic of the Yak-141 and its possible modernization has clearly revived recently on Internet resources
      1. KCA
        KCA 11 September 2019 10: 55
        -1
        So it has revived on the Internet, and if the topic comes to life in the form of OCD, we will know in 10 years, and that’s not all
    2. Edward Vashchenko
      Edward Vashchenko 11 September 2019 09: 55
      0
      Wow scale. Yes, and in the Crimea.

      And what is surprising, the Gulf can do it, built a supertanker, would not have failed a complex infrastructure (management, engineering, professionalism and management).
      1. PROXOR
        PROXOR 11 September 2019 10: 25
        0
        A few months later they will launch a railway message with CRIMEA. So the logistics problem will be solved. The question is in the contractors.
    3. PROXOR
      PROXOR 11 September 2019 10: 24
      +1
      15000 for aircraft, albeit with a vertical, is still a little small. Need a ship twice as heavy.
  4. Fedor Sokolov
    Fedor Sokolov 11 September 2019 06: 49
    -3
    But is there a need for them? Combat capabilities are very modest with gigantic proportions, the cost of construction and further operation is very high. It would be more efficient to spend budget money on the revival and production of heavy combat and military transport ekranoplanes.
    1. armata_armata
      armata_armata 11 September 2019 06: 55
      -3
      It would be more efficient to spend budget money on the revival and production of heavy combat and military transport ekranoplanes

      Only communication boats are more effective than this idea)) An ecplane that lives up to the first air-to-air missile flying into it is what you need good
      1. abc_alex
        abc_alex 11 September 2019 08: 37
        +6
        Quote: armata_armata
        The eco-plane that lives up to the first air-to-air missile flying into it is what you need.


        And this one lives until the first RCC, much better? It's a barge ...
        1. armata_armata
          armata_armata 11 September 2019 08: 39
          -1

          And this one lives until the first RCC, much better? It's a barge ...

          The barge has anti-aircraft defense which is able to bring down one anti-ship missile; the ecological plan has nothing
          1. abc_alex
            abc_alex 11 September 2019 08: 49
            +2
            Specifically "Lunya", yes, there is nothing. Well, except for the flight mode, which is extremely inconvenient for location. But what prevents the installation of electronic warfare equipment, a powerful aircraft-type radar and self-defense equipment on the new device? Two anchors were dragged to Lunya with winches and chains - they did not fall apart. On the new device, instead of this "happiness", install a light-class air defense system such as Thor or Pantsir in a special design.

            A simple, really strange project is being proposed ... 10 helicopters in total ... And the dimensions are not large ... It is unlikely that there will be serious air defense ....
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 11 September 2019 16: 12
              0
              Quote: abc_alex
              But what prevents the installation of electronic warfare equipment, a powerful aircraft-type radar and self-defense equipment on the new device? Two anchors were dragged to Lunya with winches and chains - they did not fall apart. On the new device, instead of this "happiness", install a light-class air defense system such as Thor or Pantsir in a special design.

              It interferes with the fact that the ekranoplan is not rubber. He still needs to take off with all this.
              And then, what kind of air defense should it be in order to fight off a supersonic missile diving at an ekranoplan with a combined GOS (active / passive) with a range of 100 km? This is not fantasy, but the ancient AIM-54, which, PMSM, is ideal for defeating ekranoplanes. Moreover, they did it based on the defeat of much smaller and faster targets - large Soviet anti-ship missiles and their carrier aircraft. And not a subsonic low-maneuverable target the size of RTOs.
          2. Avis-bis
            Avis-bis 11 September 2019 09: 43
            0
            Quote: armata_armata

            And this one lives until the first RCC, much better? It's a barge ...

            The barge has anti-aircraft defense which is able to bring down one anti-ship missile; the ecological plan has nothing

            And what kind of air defense does the Hercules or the A.400M have?
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 11 September 2019 16: 08
              +1
              Quote: Avis-bis
              And what kind of air defense does the Hercules or the A.400M have?

              And they are carriers of anti-ship missiles and operate in the area of ​​operation of enemy aircraft? wink
              1. Avis-bis
                Avis-bis 11 September 2019 17: 22
                0
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Quote: Avis-bis
                And what kind of air defense does the Hercules or the A.400M have?

                And they are carriers of RCC

                What does it have to do with it? The participant wrote about transport EPLs. But the shock version with RCC also changes little.
                operate in the area of ​​enemy aviation? wink

                Yes. Do you have a different vision of their work? Do you think that military-technical cooperation is flying only in conditions of absolute superiority in the air of its air forces? Well, so, you are mistaken.
                1. Alexey RA
                  Alexey RA 11 September 2019 19: 30
                  -1
                  Quote: Avis-bis
                  What does it have to do with it? The participant wrote about transport EPLs.

                  We read carefully:
                  Quote: Fyodor Sokolov
                  It would be more efficient to spend budget money on revival and production heavy combat and military transport ekranoplanes.

                  Quote: Avis-bis
                  Yes. Do you have a different vision of their work? Do you think that military-technical cooperation is flying only in conditions of absolute superiority in the air of its air forces?

                  In my vision of a military-technical cooperation, transport planes do not attack the ship's warrant. smile
                  1. Avis-bis
                    Avis-bis 11 September 2019 19: 51
                    -1
                    Quote: Alexey RA

                    We read carefully:

                    That's it.
                    In my vision of a military-technical cooperation, transport planes do not attack the ship's warrant. smile

                    My posting concerned only transport EPLs. Percussion - are discussed. But you are definitely not an expert on them. It so happened, humble yourself.
                    1. Alexey RA
                      Alexey RA 12 September 2019 10: 32
                      +2
                      Quote: Avis-bis
                      My posting concerned only transport EPLs. Percussion - are discussed.

                      And for transport ekranoplanes you need to have a fleet and aviation. Otherwise, it is dangerous to release them further 300 km from the base.
                      Quote: Avis-bis
                      But you are definitely not an expert on them. It so happened, humble yourself.

                      Why the Internet is good, you can always find an expert on experts who makes a diagnosis by profile picture. laughing
                      1. Avis-bis
                        Avis-bis 12 September 2019 11: 02
                        -2
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        diagnosis

                        "The cap is on the thief." Nobody diagnosed you, but you yourself admitted that you have problems.
    2. Tiksi-3
      Tiksi-3 11 September 2019 06: 58
      +2
      Quote: Fyodor Sokolov
      It would be more efficient to spend budget money on the revival and production of heavy combat and military transport ekranoplanes

      belay and how is it more efficient? where to apply them? name specifically?
      1. abc_alex
        abc_alex 11 September 2019 08: 40
        +2
        Not "where" but "when". When it is necessary to maneuver the naval weapons or amphibious assault forces on the coast that is not suitable for landing by conventional means. Toltko, of course, is an ekranolet.
        1. Tiksi-3
          Tiksi-3 11 September 2019 08: 51
          +1
          Quote: abc_alex
          where "a" when "

          exactly where !! and how? in the Caspian?
          1. abc_alex
            abc_alex 11 September 2019 08: 56
            +3
            I don’t understand you ... Where? Wherever there is a water surface or a flat land surface.
            How? For strike versions, as well as missile boats, for landing ones as well as helicopters or convertiplanes ...
            1. Tiksi-3
              Tiksi-3 11 September 2019 09: 01
              0
              Quote: abc_alex
              Where? Wherever there is a water surface

              do you know the conditions of use? at what excitement is takeoff and landing possible? and the fact that knocking it down does not seem difficult at all .. the branch for shock capabilities is completely unpromising, but for the citizen it’s possible to buzz!
              1. abc_alex
                abc_alex 12 September 2019 00: 16
                -1
                Quote: Tiksi-3
                do you know the conditions of use? at what excitement is takeoff and landing possible? and the fact that knocking it down does not seem difficult at all .. the branch for shock capabilities is completely unpromising, but for the citizen it’s possible to buzz!

                And again, as if from a clean slate ... Takeoff and landing of the ekranolet are possible under the same conditions as in an airplane or a seaplane.
                With the modern development of missile weapons, you can "shoot down" anything, you just need to pick up the appropriate missile.
                For strike purposes, it will be extremely useful to have a highly mobile, unobtrusive "ship-caliber" anti-ship missile carrier capable of quickly posing a threat to the same AUG from an unprotected azimuth ...
        2. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 11 September 2019 16: 15
          0
          Quote: abc_alex
          or landing on coasts not suitable for landing by conventional means

          Disposable WIG?
          For for a landing from an ekranoplan with the possibility of re-using this ekranoplan, the conditions on the coast should be the same as for the BDK. Otherwise, he simply will not take off from the landing site, and the landing force will be beaten during landing.
          1. abc_alex
            abc_alex 12 September 2019 00: 30
            0
            Quote: Alexey RA
            For for a landing from an ekranoplan with the possibility of re-using this ekranoplan, the conditions on the coast should be the same as for the BDK. Otherwise, he simply will not take off from the landing site, and the landing force will be beaten during landing.

            And again, as if from scratch ... - 2.
            Was the A-50 "Eaglet" disposable? There are no restrictions on the coast at all for the ekranolet, it can detach from the screen and fly like an airplane. It is clear that the airplane mode was only tested on the "Orlyonok", but this does not mean that the ekrano flight cannot take off from land. For this, modern projects of heavy ekranoplane - biplanes, they have a complex wing that combines a classic airplane and ekronoplane wing.
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 12 September 2019 10: 46
              0
              Quote: abc_alex
              Was the A-50 "Eaglet" disposable?

              "Eaglet" with a landing was to land on the water and then slowly crawl out to the beach.
              Quote: abc_alex
              There are no coastal restrictions for the ekranoleta, it can take off the screen and fly in an airplane.

              Can. But for landing he needs to sit down.
              Or water and drive to the shore - which means that you need a beach, as for the BDK.
              Or on land - but there you need a prepared strip. For otherwise, the landing of a 140-ton car with a pair of ten-wheeled chassis flying at a speed of about 200 km / h will end in disaster.
              And if there is such a strip, then the same IL-76 or An-124 can be planted on it. smile
              1. abc_alex
                abc_alex 13 September 2019 00: 11
                0
                Quote: Alexey RA
                "Eaglet" with a landing was to land on the water and then slowly crawl out to the beach.

                When the front engines were blown under the wing, the "Orlyonok" went to the beach on an "air cushion. It is a pity that the tests of the structure were interrupted, but purely theoretically, when the main and auxiliary control systems work together, the Alekseevskiy ekranolayet can reduce the speed before landing to very low values, in fact, sit down like a helicopter.

                Quote: Alexey RA
                And if there is such a strip, then the same IL-76 or An-124 can be planted on it.

                It is possible, but you will not force the IL-76 or An-124 to fly 500-600 km three meters above the ground.
    3. g1washntwn
      g1washntwn 11 September 2019 08: 25
      0
      The highways were even larger, 21,3 thousand tons against the expected 15 of ours. Helicopters are 20 to 10. Landing boats are also likely to be 2 times smaller, that is - 2. That is, for local showdowns and transport equipment for rotation at remote points is enough. The ekranoplanes are interesting, but there are their drawbacks, for example - not only in terms of seaworthiness, but also problems with passage of straits, etc., etc.
      1. abc_alex
        abc_alex 11 September 2019 09: 03
        +2
        Quote: g1washntwn
        The ekranoplanes are interesting, but there are their drawbacks, for example - not only in terms of seaworthiness, but also problems with passage of straits, etc., etc.

        Therefore, we can only speak seriously about ekranolets - machines that also have a "classical airplane" flight mode.
      2. Alexandra
        Alexandra 11 September 2019 23: 02
        +1
        ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems MHD-150 Project:

        Deck for simultaneous take-off of up to four heavy EH.101 helicopters and two medium-sized NH90 helicopters. The hangar accommodates 9 medium-sized HN90 helicopters. LCU Mk.10 or LCAC landing craft docking dock + two LCM landing craft on sloop-beams.
        1. g1washntwn
          g1washntwn 12 September 2019 08: 22
          0
          Quote: AlexanderA
          ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems Project MHD-150

          Yes. This project is our classmate.
          Quote: https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/mhd.htm
          The MHD-150 has a displacement of ton, 182m in length, overall width 26.5M, draws 6m, with 776 troops carried on the ship, power system for the diesel engine, dual-shaft, and the maximum speed 22 knots, range of 8,000 nautical miles when the speed of 15 knots ... It has a transverse auxiliary propulsion in the bow, and stern transverse stability can be maintained when the docking point for loading and unloading operation. The MHD-150 has a flight deck 126m long, with the ship's island on the ship's starboard, a large hangar is at full length below the flight deck, with elevator capacity 25 tons to conveying helicopters. In addition, the ship's stern also has a full length flight deck below the level of the main helicopter deck, from which helicopters can by move directly. This lower take off and landing deck can also be used to place large containers.
  5. martin-159
    martin-159 11 September 2019 06: 51
    +1
    Probably nice and easy to write about what will happen in ten years.
  6. Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy 11 September 2019 07: 12
    0
    The dates for the construction of the first Russian helicopter carriers
    Shaw, again?
    Only the site abandoned the Mistral. feel
    A couple is needed, for the Mediterranean, "it's warm there, there are apples." For the Pacific Fleet, too, will have to be built, Stalin did not squeeze Hokaido from Truman, now it will have to be redone feel Then Yapam will not be up to the Kuril Islands. feel
  7. Lord of the Sith
    Lord of the Sith 11 September 2019 07: 34
    +1
    Those documentation is there, equipment too, it remains to build, in a good way!
  8. Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 11 September 2019 07: 37
    +1
    Well, now it's necessary to come up with the names "in spite" of "Mistrals"! It is a pity that such names as "Bora", "Barguzin" will have to be held back ... they, if my memory serves me right, have already been used ... But why "Sarma" is not suitable? Quite a fitting name! yes
    1. AlexVas44
      AlexVas44 11 September 2019 08: 21
      +1
      The names can be left as planned - "Sevastopol" and "Vladivostok". And if in defiance, then it is possible so - "Paris Commune". laughing
      1. Captain45
        Captain45 11 September 2019 18: 33
        0
        Quote: AlexVas44
        And if in defiance, then it is possible so - "Paris Commune".

        She, if we are against it - "Francois" and "Emanuel" (Hollande with Macron) laughing
  9. rocket757
    rocket757 11 September 2019 07: 44
    0
    There was a lot of controversy ... if you NEED, you have to do ..... just not for what it was!
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 11 September 2019 08: 42
      +3
      Well, Duc is a universal ship - which the fleets of all countries of the world want to have. And they have. Even all sorts of Singapore and Peru have already acquired.

      Frigate destroyers, and especially submarines, are quite situational means. Which are more involved in ensuring passive safety (scary attack) and is rather limited in conflicts.

      DKVD / UDC - it takes out any war far from its native border. It provides a bunch of peaceful applications, from the headquarters of the rescue operation in the disaster area (earthquake / tsunami / volcano / war, etc.) and the evacuation of the population in the conditions of complete destruction of all infrastructure or the inability to use it, to show the flag, active participation in international (especially with all kinds of friends and doubters) teachings.
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 11 September 2019 08: 59
        -1
        Do we have many long-range operations? How does this fit into our defense concept?
        That is to guard the borders, and we have them very, very long and not everywhere there is at least some kind of population, not to mention the troops. The only question is, who will dare to encroach on those very sparsely populated, not very guarded lines ???
        PS .... The Far East, the Kuril Islands, islands ..... this is the topic, here they are useful for anyone.
        1. donavi49
          donavi49 11 September 2019 09: 14
          +7
          Well, here is Syria. I had to pull together all the Navy’s BDKs during the peak months of transportation (and these months stretched for more than a year when there was a live BNK on the Northern Fleet, and the rest on the 1-1 BDK Pacific Fleet — either under repair or on the Novorossiysk-Tartus line). If the shoulder were a little further, then the existing landing forces would not have taken out. And this is also taking into account air traffic.

          You forget one very important thing:
          - air transportation is easy to interrupt, by a simple decision, and by a decision of a sovereign state, within the framework of recognized rules, including those observed by Russia. That is, the flight of the BTA = it is necessary permission from all states in the airspace which is flying. If, say, Iraq did not crumble, and there would be a pro-American administration holding the country in its fist = then there would be no air bridge. For geography or Iraq, or Turkey, or Bulgaria-Greece. Or teleport.

          - only ships can go anywhere in the world, hiding behind the freedom of navigation. And no one can stop them. Yes, you may have to make hooks by adding a day's journey, but this is possible and no one has the right to interfere. For those recognized by all (including the United States) rules.

          And yet, long-distance operations = this is from capabilities. You can continue to go to Indra on the crumbling Polish BDK and postpone the exercises for 5-10 days, because you need to put yourself in order because of the storm. However, if a tool appears, you can conduct more active work away from your native coast. Look again at China. How many African colonies did they have in 90's = when there was no fleet? And how many African colonies now?
          1. rocket757
            rocket757 11 September 2019 09: 38
            -2
            Quote: donavi49
            You forget one very important thing:

            The topic was discussed and I wrote that FAST MILITARY TRANSPORT VESSELS are not luxury, but NECESSITY! Not even BDKs, which have their own specifics of application, are just specialized transport vessels.
            Quote: donavi49
            And yet, long-distance operations = this is from capabilities.

            But this is not so obvious, because Russia does not have a colonial experience, and therefore the fleet was important for the defense of borders, insofar as it was a serious strike force in an attack somewhere.
            In the current situation, when in the seas and oceans, we do not dominate at all, the colonial fleet, transports, are not needed in large numbers .... there is nothing for him to do somewhere or something without the support of the strike fleet. Syria, this is just an EPISODE !!! Having shown that the fleet could not do without ships of a certain type at all, but had no effect on the doctrine of our defense.
          2. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 11 September 2019 16: 28
            +1
            Quote: donavi49
            Well, here is Syria. I had to pull together all the Navy’s BDKs during the peak months of transportation (and these months lasted more than a year when there was 1 live BDK on the Northern Fleet, on the Pacific Fleet 1-2 BDK the rest were either under repair or on the Novorossiysk-Tartus line).

            Just for Syria, the BDK were not needed. Their only advantages were the actual presence and flag of the Navy. Everything else for the port-to-port transportation was not necessary and even harmful - for it reduced cargo capacity (as well as the same design features for landing on an unequipped shore).
            The use of the BDK on the Syrian route was a necessary measure due to the lack of the state's conventional rollerters, which could be mobilized and covered with the flag of the auxiliary fleet.
  10. Professor
    Professor 11 September 2019 08: 09
    +5
    And how much ink was flown out for explanations "Why UDC of Russia is not needed at all"after the French refusal. Just like Fox and Grapes."

    PS
    2030 !!! well at least not 3020. wassat
    1. srelock
      srelock 11 September 2019 11: 12
      0
      They really were not needed, especially the French, and now they are not needed. They will be needed only after the 30s tongue
  11. donavi49
    donavi49 11 September 2019 08: 37
    +8
    Well, the pace is clearly not Chinese.

    April-May of 2019 of the year - a mortgage was first noticed at the launching ceremony of 8 DKVD 071.


    now




    And this is a fool in 30 tons for a large group.
  12. Avior
    Avior 11 September 2019 08: 49
    0
    So there was an explanation of yesterday’s news that they will develop VTOL.
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 11 September 2019 09: 03
      +7
      Well, a little sense to develop VTOL? Well, a group will fit in, say 2 MSS + 6 transport + 2 VTOL instead of attack helicopters. AND? Do they win a lot? Or support?

      The much larger (more than double the displacement and triple the air group) Juan Carlos carry 6-8 VTOL + 20 helicopters. There it is somehow justified.




      Plus, again, VTOL = this is a priority to do a springboard. Although if you look at the market, then perhaps there is a niche:
      - Turkey 1 Carlos already exists (this is 8 order machines) + they want to build another one but according to their project based on Carlos (if they guarantee VTOL, they will save the springboard).
      - China here besides 3 Avov (by the time of the VTOL flight = there will already be 3 Ava and 4 on the way = this is China wassat ), there will be 2 UDC of the 075 project, again, under the guarantee of the VTOL, they will jump the springboard. And in general, the capacity of 50-60 machines is easy.
      - India they will have 2 Ava which is nice to dilute VTOL, especially the small head ex-Gorshkov. Also, by that time, a competition for the new UDC will be held - they have a crumbling American Austin with aft helicopter deck now, almost does not go to sea, because he is all. Especially if Pakistan - China will merge the old 071 (one of the first) after repair and modernization. Then Hindu pride will be hurt. Again, the main candidate Carlos = total 18-24 cars can be sold, however, already with competition in the form of F-35.
      - Other countries are possible, especially if you cooperate with China to promote products in Africa.

      Well, +/- 100 machines + 30-50 for yourself (however, inflate even before 100 cars). Perhaps already on such a volume, we can talk about leaving even at zero for the project and the normal price for the plane.
      1. Avior
        Avior 11 September 2019 09: 12
        +1
        I think that in the near future UDC will acquire everything. Not so expensive. With the advent of VTOL, this is a different level of warfare.
        And VTOL in the world will be in demand, not everyone can or will want to buy f-35.
        And as for
        Well, the group will fit, say 2 PSS + 6 transport + 2 VTOL aircraft instead of attack helicopters. AND? Do they win a lot? Or support?

        even if the eight is stuck, it will be a more serious argument against any fleet without them.
        And against the shore too. Against the States, of course, not an argument, but there are different shores.
        And they can build more in size, or build a couple of others more.
        1. donavi49
          donavi49 11 September 2019 09: 20
          +4
          Well sounded TTX of the first UDC:
          10 Helicopter Group.

          We lay out:
          2 MSS = Ka-27PS / M, because without them permission to fly will not be given.
          4-6 transport and strike group = Ka-29, it depends on the number of take-off areas, that is, the magnitude of the 1 wave. For example, if 4 is a group of 4-6 machines.

          remains 2-4 slots under OTHER cars = this is Ka-52K or your VTOL aircraft, or AWACS, or PLO.

          Somewhat justified group of VTOL aircraft - 4 machines. Normal 6 for UDC. 6-10 for UDC = this is chic and the best level achieved only at the most expensive and heavy UDC.
      2. Avior
        Avior 11 September 2019 09: 18
        0
        Plus, again, VTOL = this is a priority to do a springboard. Although if you look at the market, then perhaps there is a niche:

        A springboard is not necessary for VTOL. It is possible without it, so that it does not interfere with helicopters, if necessary.
        as for the Avigroup, Invisible was not much more. 18 Harriers, 4 Sea King.
        F-35, of course, more, but he also has the ability to a different level.
        1. donavi49
          donavi49 11 September 2019 09: 28
          +4
          Invisible is an Aircraft Carrier with the ability to take people but without landing facilities. A modern analogue of his Cavour for example. If he takes the equipment, then to the hangar or to the cargo deck (small). There is no docking camera. Apart from helicopters, there are no landing facilities.

          A springboard is needed = because it allows:
          a) Raise the take-off weight of the machine;
          b) Save quite a lot of fuel on the take-off procedure.

          Without it, you can, but then there will be less take-off weight and less radius.
          1. Avior
            Avior 11 September 2019 09: 44
            0
            There is a modern Korean Dokdo with a small displacement.
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dokdo-class_amphibious_assault_ship
            They also plan to put f-35.
            And about the springboard, I’m not sure that this is so expressed for VTOL.
            Americans do without it.
            At the extreme, it can fly almost vertically, the path length can be adjusted.
            And, as they say, if I break it, subtract from my salary smile
            [media = https: //youtu.be/jxuaMO05PX4]
            1. donavi49
              donavi49 11 September 2019 12: 15
              +6
              This is a very compromise ship. One solution - which allowed to squeeze everything = combined hangar-cargo deck. Roughly - they got rid of the whole level that the Chinese, Mistral and Juan Carlos have. That is - the elevator lowers directly onto the cargo deck. Therefore, an air group can only be stored on the flight deck or instead of military equipment. Peak values ​​for the air group indicate with a truncated composition of the marine corps.

              1. Avior
                Avior 11 September 2019 13: 14
                +1
                And no one says that for each task you need to fully load the wing and the landing force.
                The tasks are different.
                But even the aircraft link will fundamentally change the capabilities of the UDC - from in-depth strikes to the task of isolating from the supply of reserves to the landing point - bridges, railroads, convoys on the march, and so on.
              2. alexmach
                alexmach 11 September 2019 23: 45
                0
                This is a very compromise ship.

                U - versatility?
                1. donavi49
                  donavi49 12 September 2019 07: 58
                  0
                  No - a compromise for the sake of fitting the ship into a clear budget and dimensional framework. If the budget had been unscrewed and 6-9k displacement allowed, they would have set the hangar level, they even have a project with a normal UDC a la Carlos / Mistral.
        2. Sally
          Sally 11 September 2019 09: 46
          +1
          But it will allow you to work with greater combat load using a short take-off.) (Which is huge for an expeditionary ship +)
          But again, there is no ready-made swvp and its characteristics.
          ps 10 cars and such a displacement is about nothing, there is neither a reserve in case of loss of cars nor a place for fuel and for skok somewhere normal ammunition.
          1. Sally
            Sally 11 September 2019 09: 51
            +1
            While all looms as they said. The ship is based on green. The same BDK but having a slightly larger air group (you have to start somewhere)).
            1. Artemiy_2
              Artemiy_2 11 September 2019 10: 12
              0
              Gren ship

              Most likely this surf. Very suitable for performance characteristics
              1. Sally
                Sally 11 September 2019 10: 16
                +1
                Dreams (. Breakdown of design 24000+
                1. Artemiy_2
                  Artemiy_2 11 September 2019 10: 19
                  +2
                  24000+

                  There are two surf options. From the Krylovsky center at 24 and from the Nevsky Design Bureau. From Nevsky just fits under 000 VI
                  Yes, and more realistic. Because the Krylovsky center is engaged in concepts and glues models
                  1. Sally
                    Sally 11 September 2019 10: 46
                    +1
                    Project Number)
                    Seriously small (as from my couch) as for what (they want) from him can be cut during the construction process. Or again you get ala "aircraft-carrying cruiser Minsk" (.
        3. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 11 September 2019 16: 33
          +2
          Quote: Avior
          A springboard is not necessary for VTOL.

          So instead of the VTOL aircraft, the long-term military aviation system has long been. Because VTOL aircraft are foremast defense aircraft. smile
          The fleet does not need pure vertical takeoff and landing - because they lose in terms of load and radius. It is not for nothing that the same Yak-38 was tested already in 1979 for takeoff with a short mileage, and in 1983, combat pilots from Novorossiysk were already flying this way.
          1. Avior
            Avior 11 September 2019 16: 40
            -1
            It doesn’t matter what is squvp.
            Both of them are able to provide lifting force directly from the engine, compensating for its lack of wing after taking off from the ground without a springboard.
            And they sit down vertically, since the landing weight is always much less than the take-off
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 11 September 2019 19: 32
              +1
              Quote: Avior
              Both of them are able to provide lifting force directly from the engine, compensating for its lack of wing after taking off from the ground without a springboard.

              They can. But at the cost of less combat load or fuel supply than with a springboard takeoff.
  13. pepel
    pepel 11 September 2019 11: 41
    +1
    With such terms of construction, ships in the dock will become museum exhibits.
  14. Alexey-74
    Alexey-74 11 September 2019 11: 43
    -1
    Good news. Technology seen from the Mistral passed. The main thing that would be built. Good luck to the shipbuilders.
  15. senima56
    senima56 11 September 2019 11: 56
    0
    Finally "Zaliv" will receive a worthy order! And then at such a huge enterprise, with the largest (so far) dry dock in Russia, they are building some kind of "trifle"! As the saying goes: "A hat for Senka!"
  16. Brigadier
    Brigadier 12 September 2019 13: 13
    0
    It is noted that the laying ceremony of two Russian universal landing ships will be held in May 2020.

    So approximately, by 2050-55, Russia will have two whole universal landing craft. Let the enemies tremble! wassat lol tongue laughing good
  17. Adimius38
    Adimius38 12 September 2019 13: 19
    +1
    would not make laugh. In China, an aircraft carrier of 4 tons has been built in 50000 years. In Russia, over 4 years they built an MRC. China bursts out laughing. From 7 to 10 years we will build one single helicopter carrier of 15000 tons)) For example, the Chinese destroyer 055 of the 12000 tons project laid in December 2014 was launched in June 2017. According to the plan, in 2020 they will have 6 destroyers 055 of the 12000 project tons each. That is, in five years, in fact, 6 large shock surface ships with a total tonnage of 72000 tons. That would be where to drive our government and representatives of the military-industrial complex to see how to build and how people build.
  18. nnz226
    nnz226 12 September 2019 15: 30
    +1
    Mdyayayayaya .... Khvrantsuzy built "Mistral" for 3 years, ours will build the first already for 7 years ... Isn't it too much and isn't it too expensive ???
    1. Pavel57
      Pavel57 12 September 2019 19: 25
      -1
      Better to do and regret than not to do and regret.