Military Review

So fly or fly?

299
So, every day more and more interesting becomes in terms of analytics. Especially in part aviation. After the miraculous transformation of the once-international MAKS airshow into a branch of the Chinese airshow China airshow, the reduction of the state defense order for military aircraft and the complete helplessness of civil aircraft industry, an epoch-making decision was made: to send Anatoly Serdyukov to save the industry.


So fly or fly?


I will not comment on the appointment, with the person of the savior it became clear to me even when he was not imprisoned. “Relief” of “Helicopters of Russia” by tens of millions of rubles for the sake of a concert of a pretty moldy lover to go to the platform by car - this is already perceived as so ... Ordinary.

Well, we’ll talk about MAKS separately, as well as the capabilities of the “industrial director of the aviation cluster of Rostec state corporation.” This is now called the new chair of Mr. Serdyukov.

“We are particularly concerned about the significant loan portfolio of the UAC. The company does not allow defaults on debt obligations. However, its operating flow is not enough to pay off old debts and not build up new ones in the course of business ”
,
- said Serdyukov.

The fact that the people are concerned Serdyukov, can be neglected. But a lot lies in the words of Mr. Leader. For example, from the words of Serdyukov in the future it follows that the debts of the KLA were formed in the process of solving state problems.

It really is. It is very difficult to argue with this.

Indeed, there was a time when many defense industry enterprises worked in the Soviet style “all for the good of the state”, financing themselves, at the expense of borrowed funds. This was all over the place, until enterprises finally entered the market and adapted to its conditions. Who survived, naturally.

I personally almost like the following quote from Serdyukov, no matter how strange it may sound.

“The problem of their (debts. - Approx. Aut.) Embroidery requires a comprehensive solution with the participation of the state. The issue is now being worked out in close contact with federal executive bodies. At the same time, we understand that state assistance obliges us to make significant changes in the operational activities of the UAC and, possibly, will lead to a reform of the aircraft industry as a whole. ”
,
- said Serdyukov.

A double feeling, to be honest. Especially if you recall the successful reform of the army by the Minister of Defense Serdyukov ... Just frost on the skin from the prospects opening up to the aircraft industry. But the state’s participation in the liquidation of these debts looks ... It just looks.

Some "optimists" seriously say that Serdyukov managed to reform the army. It seems to be not without miscalculations, but in general ... In general, dear readers, you yourself are able to conclude how successful Serdyukov was in his reforms.

I mean the reforms, and not the boxes with jewelry from the mistress in the multi-room apartments in the center of Moscow, I hope this is understandable.

Now here is the experience of reforming everything and everything will be applied to the KLA.

First, of course, there will be an audit and evaluation. This is to then transfer the assets of the UAC to Rostec. All this will happen in the first half of the 2020 year. Thus, 24 of the main aircraft plant and 15 repair, which make up the core of the UAC, will begin to turn from unprofitable to profitable.

Again quote from Serdyukov.

“The main task at the upcoming stage is to establish effective cooperation between the UAC factories and other enterprises of the Rostec aviation cluster, including holding companies with specialization in the field of engine building, avionics, aircraft equipment, and helicopter engineering.”


A strange phrase, to be honest. Somewhat incomprehensible, there was no cooperation? Rostec aviation enterprises lived on their own, and the UAC - on its own? Or was cooperation still, but ineffective? But for the sake of such a thing, is it really necessary to arrange such a merger?

“From these trips and workshops, there is an unambiguous conclusion that there are reserves for closer and more effective joint work of aircraft manufacturing enterprises and suppliers.”


I believe. And there simply cannot be no reserves. But again the same question: is the integration of the UAC in Rostec a necessary step for the proper implementation of these reserves, or is it a redistribution of property and redistribution of financial flows?

Something tells me that the second option is more vital.

And there is confirmation from Serdyukov. According to him, "in the KLA there are an excess of the number of leaders at various levels, therefore recommendations are given for optimizing the central office."

That is, on the one hand, everything is more or less logical and transparent. The inflated (I do not exclude, by the way) managerial staff in the light of the transfer of the UAC to Rostec will be reduced and they will ask for extra ones. Including top managers of the highest level, who are often holders of shares. What about stocks? We’ll see, although they’re unlikely to tell us.

There is already evidence that the newspaper “Vzglyad” repeatedly wrote) that UAC subsidiaries have also launched the process of dismissing employees in droves. Who and how to be fired is not yet reported, but ...

According to Serdyukov, “qualified engineering and design personnel do not affect organizational events.” Well, not bad, another question, if you don’t touch the best of the best, what will happen to the best of the worst?

But what about other people? I had in mind the unpleasant moment that was announced in 2015 by the president of the UAC, Yuri Slyusar. He said then that the UAC is experiencing an acute shortage of personnel, and projects to create modern civilian aircraft require more employees.

They promised to recruit about 17 thousand people over the 2015-2017 years. It’s hard to say how much they got, but what will happen to them? After all, this is clearly not the most qualified personnel.

And now - layoffs. And here it’s not even a reorganization of guilt. The fault, in my opinion, is the poor financial condition of the KLA, which is not easy to hide.

In 2018, the corporation showed a net loss of 30 billion rubles. In 2017 there was a profit, not so big, 196 millions, but a profit. In the 2016 year there was a loss, but a small (compared to the 2018 year), total 3,2 billion rubles.

Warmer isn't it? 30 billion rubles - this is not that "inefficient cooperation" with allies, it is a more serious reason.

All debts of the corporation are estimated at approximately 350 billion rubles. Or 5,3 billion dollars, if anyone is interested.

Not so long ago, the head of Rostec, Sergei Chemezov, personally at a meeting with President Vladimir Putin asked the state 300 billions of rubles for the "final financial recovery" of the KLA.

That is, to pay off debts and finish work on the MS-21 project, which nevertheless must fly and work out the funds spent on it.

Chemezov confirmed that the KLA has a large volume of loans that have been going on since the 90 of the last century, and some were “inherited” during the mergers and divisions of the companies.

And then miracles begin.

According to many "authoritative publications" and "experts", one of the main problems of the UAC is the "excess capacity" of the aviation industry, inherited from the USSR.

Funny is not it?

Up to 1000 units of civil aircraft were produced in the USSR, and the country fully provided for itself on short and long routes. There were no problems with the delivery of mail, freight and ambulance.

And now? And now with the plan in 45 (FORTY FIVE) aircraft, 2017 was released in 42, and 2018 civil aircraft in 35.

We don’t take yet what these airplanes were like. They were.

Greatly undermined the revenues of UAC “Superjet”, which they planned to produce (and sell, which is important) up to 70 pieces per year. However, this did not happen, and the queue did not line up for the Sukhoi Design Bureau.

We have already written more than once that some plants are idle. The Voronezh VASO was cited as an example, but things are no better at other plants. Taganrog boasts three Be-200 last year, Aviastar assembled one Tu-204 and three Il-76, and two MS-21 were built by Irkut.

There is an opinion that these plants ... DO NOT NEED!

According to Roman Gusarov, the first person of the Avia.ru portal, the thing is ... the damned Soviet past!

“These are all huge factories, tens of thousands of employees that need to be maintained. But the factories have nothing to produce: Soviet equipment is outdated, nobody needs it, and the new equipment is only in the process of development. And the development of aircraft needs a lot of money. Each plane is a few billion dollars. But there is really no sales. It’s not surprising that such debts have accumulated. ”


Soviet equipment is outdated ... No, it is difficult to argue with such an authoritative gentleman, but I really want to. What about the "outdated Soviet technology" in the form of the Tu-160, MiG-35, Su-35, IL-96, IL-112? This is all Soviet, as it were.

Well, about the fact that there is no new technology. But what about the Superjet? MS-21? Tu-204?

Well, they can be attributed to the loss. With the MS-21, everything is more or less clear, the aircraft is being finalized, you can grit your teeth and wait. But “Superjet” is pure super-loss.

Moreover, everything is clear, this one is not needed, in general, no one is running to buy a car. Initially, it was necessary to listen to customers who asked for a regional plane, but received ... Well, we already have a good idea of ​​what we were able to do in Sukhoi Design Bureau. Something semi-dry, and even diluted to the impossibility of imported components.

Strange, but for some reason the state continues to pour money into the Superjet. In the 2015 year, the KLA received 100 billions of rubles in the authorized capital, and this money was used to repay the loans that the KLA received under the Superjet program.

But in the end, we got a small airplane that flies in the same place as the Boeings and Airbus, but flies more expensive precisely because it is small. Accordingly, no one needs it, no matter how hard the state tries to shove it with subsidies to carriers.

It is hoped that at least with the MS-21 will not be so. If you don’t kill the plane on the engines.

So what to reform in an industry that cannot cope with two passenger aircraft, the task is very difficult.

But the KLA also has a military sector. Here the situation is not so sad, but ...

Strange things happen here too. All over the world, working for the defense industry is a dream for a production worker, and only in Russia are there huge risks and losses.

They say that the greed of the military, who allegedly do not want to buy aircraft at their market value, is to blame.

There have been articles on the network several times that told how the IRP at the plant costs 350 rubles, and on invoices, which in part, the price is already around 700. Maybe the same song with airplanes?

Strange, the KLA calls one of the causes of losses in 2018 ... a decrease in state defense orders. And then there is widespread talk about not earning anything at the GOZ.

Although inflation, devaluation, kickbacks and more can be allowed. But the whole world somehow lives, but with us ... We have something to work on for Serdyukov.

In general, I understand where the wind blows.

It is necessary to optimize the UAC. Pass it on to Rostec, bring it ... Well, put something there.

And then everything is simple. Close unprofitable plants such as VASO and Irkut, sell property, sell off for land development. To throw out the remains of specialists on the street or transport them to other cities, as in due time they tried to get Kazan and Ufa specialists from Voronezh by hook or by crook ...

And then amicably begin to gnaw not like elbows, arms to shoulders. This does not have to wait long, it will happen when the next wave of sanctions affects aircraft. Both Boeings and Airbases will be declared dual-use items.

However, perhaps I exaggerate. Perhaps Rostec will succeed in this reform, and the plants will have a future and a future. After all, were they able to promote “Russian Helicopters” and “KRET” in Rostec?

True, then Serdyukov was not at the helm ...

Unfortunately, no one has announced any plans to us yet. Moreover, it is not said whether these plans exist at all. What will be the upcoming reform, and whether it will be at all.

It is understood that the sale of equipment and plant land plus the dismissal of employees is not a reform. This is more like bankruptcy, which is set up so that banks do not suffer financial losses.

But the bankruptcy of aircraft plants cannot have a positive effect and will entail impotence and bankruptcy of the aircraft industry itself.

And it seems to us that we still need our own aircraft. And the military, and transport, and civilian, and special.
Author:
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  1. Ross xnumx
    Ross xnumx 11 September 2019 05: 58 New
    +21
    That's right, Roman!
    And it seems to us that we still need our own aircraft. And the military, and transport, and civilian, and special.

    Homeland requires heroes, and the country consumes these "effective managers." Just like in the movies:
    1. Svarog
      Svarog 11 September 2019 08: 42 New
      +33
      Well, again, the "reformer" rolled up his sleeves and began to reform ... it is surprising how many arrogance these reformers would seem to have disappeared from the information field after such a scandal, but no, they are reforming again ..
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. Nyrobsky
          Nyrobsky 11 September 2019 09: 51 New
          +15
          Quote: kepmor
          to see in the deck of the king with trump figures is somehow not very ... some sixes on hand ...
          So you have to go red-handed again ...

          Do not change how many old dogs for new ones, but until the aviary is cleaned, old fleas will bite them, because registration in the aviary is permanent. yes
        2. Beringovsky
          Beringovsky 11 September 2019 09: 53 New
          +25
          But the tsar does not even need to see others; he does not look for them.
          And is the king on the throne? request
          Or Bekbulatovich?
          1. Ilya Melnov
            Ilya Melnov 12 September 2019 13: 46 New
            +2
            Quote: Beringovsky
            But the tsar does not even need to see others; he does not look for them.
            And is the king on the throne? request
            Or Bekbulatovich?

            well, it’s easier to control such people, they’ll never give up a ton of dirt, a well-known respected man in law!
        3. nafanal
          nafanal 12 September 2019 23: 51 New
          -3
          Well, it seems to me that you are doing it in vain .. Whatever one may say, but all that we are so proud of was ordered exactly under Serdyukov’s funding .... New tanks drying caliber. Baba only brought it to the zugunder ...
      2. YOUR
        YOUR 11 September 2019 10: 50 New
        +17
        What does it mean to be in a team. Whatever you do, but still yours.
    2. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 11 September 2019 09: 29 New
      +3
      Quote: ROSS 42
      Homeland requires heroes

      And women give birth to "stools."
      1. Beringovsky
        Beringovsky 11 September 2019 10: 02 New
        +14
        Stools are not born, they become stools! fellow bully
        1. Greg Miller
          Greg Miller 11 September 2019 12: 36 New
          +13
          For whatever these mega-patriots and effective managers would not undertake, for some reason, for some reason, a karachun comes immediately ...
    3. Vend
      Vend 11 September 2019 10: 09 New
      -6
      Yes, he will not save him, but to clean it. Someone must do the dirty work in order to make way for the worthy.
      1. vic02
        vic02 11 September 2019 11: 01 New
        +10
        And who are the “unworthy” and where will the “worthy" come from?
        1. Vend
          Vend 11 September 2019 11: 12 New
          -15
          Quote: vic02
          And who are the “unworthy” and where will the “worthy" come from?

          Well, Shoigu was found, so there are others.
          1. vic02
            vic02 11 September 2019 11: 30 New
            +27
            Shoigu and Serdyukov are people of the same system, groups that they are told to do, they say to cut, they will cut, they will say to build, they will build. Therefore, it was Shoigu who was found, not Kvashnin, and not Gerasimov, although they, as professionals, are much more worthy of Shoigu. So within the system, under Putin, Serdyukov is the most worthy.
            1. Fan-fan
              Fan-fan 12 September 2019 15: 15 New
              +7
              We have survived, here is our level of leaders - Serdyukov, Mutko and others, who were liquidated in one place, and Putin sends them to another place. And the result of their work is known in advance.
              Poor camp, what are they doing to her!
              1. evgeniy.plotnikov.2019mail.ru
                evgeniy.plotnikov.2019mail.ru 14 September 2019 19: 29 New
                +2
                While confidently leading to a disaster more powerful than the 1941 disaster
          2. tihonmarine
            tihonmarine 11 September 2019 12: 30 New
            +3
            Quote: Wend
            Well, Shoigu was found, so there are others.

            It is worthy of Shoigu in our concept, and worthy of Serdyukov in their concept. The most important thing is not how to watch, but who is watching.
          3. tank64rus
            tank64rus 11 September 2019 18: 19 New
            -11
            We urgently need to clone Shoigu, but in our ministries of science and education their Serdyukovs rule. The situation, as you see, is hopeless.
  2. Alex66
    Alex66 11 September 2019 06: 05 New
    +38
    I do not believe that it is impossible to find an official who is not stained by scandals with a special, rather than a joiner's profile. They put zamrannye because they are easier to control, they are compromising. And this is necessary so that the corruption scheme would work when the hand washes his hand. It is not for nothing that our ministers walk in circles and do not allow fresh ones to power. Over Mutko, they themselves at the appointment neighing.
    1. 210ox
      210ox 11 September 2019 06: 43 New
      +32
      This is not a personnel problem ... It's just ... some shame ... No conscience, no honor, no principles ..
      1. depressant
        depressant 11 September 2019 07: 00 New
        +27
        I would add a reason. Those who are now at the helm of the country in Soviet times were insignificant, unpromising mediocrity. So they are trying to destroy everything inherited from the Union, as a reminder that if the country had survived, they would have remained no one and would have called them nothing. It cuts their eyes.
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                  1. snake
                    snake 11 September 2019 12: 23 New
                    +3
                    Quote: Lipchanin
                    Have you heard such an old saying?
                    "Without a king in my head"

                    And they didn’t read such advice from A.P. Chekhov: squeeze out a drop of a slave from himself?
                    1. Revival
                      Revival 12 September 2019 09: 20 New
                      +4
                      Well, Lipchanin, you write about the slave for nothing.
                      He recently openly and persistently defended the position that if the government passes the law that all slaves are from that day, then you must be a slave and not twitch, since this is a law and the people themselves cannot discuss laws, the authorities know better
                      1. snake
                        snake 12 September 2019 10: 48 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Revival
                        He recently openly and persistently defended the position that if the government passes the law that all slaves are from that day, then you must be a slave and not twitch,

                        "Deep people" - what to take from him ...
              2. Plantagenet
                Plantagenet 11 September 2019 09: 23 New
                +22
                “Where are the borders of patriotism? Why should love for the motherland be extended to all its governments? To help him continue to destroy the people? ”

                Alexander Ivanovich Herzen
                1. Lipchanin
                  Lipchanin 11 September 2019 09: 36 New
                  -24
                  The border is one. Do not blame everything, forgetting that good has been done.
                  You apparently didn’t live in 90x and you don’t see the difference
                  1. Plantagenet
                    Plantagenet 11 September 2019 10: 32 New
                    +11
                    "forgetting what was done good"
                    And what has been done good? What has been done lately (5 even 6 years)?
                    About comparison with 90 years. I recall the Brezhnev stagnation. The country was falling apart, but people who remembered the terrible wartime said they were okay if there was no war. Then the truth, over time, these people died. And the new generation no longer wanted to live like that.
                    1. Lipchanin
                      Lipchanin 11 September 2019 14: 40 New
                      -15
                      Quote: Plantagenet
                      And what has been done good?

                      It’s hard to tell everything.
                      Pension delayed?
                      Wages do not pay?
                      Are the stores empty shelves?
                      Army doesn't get NEW weapons?
                      What else do you need?
                      1. Plantagenet
                        Plantagenet 11 September 2019 18: 40 New
                        +10
                        "Wages are not paid?" You will not believe it, but now Russia has been covered by a wave of non-payment of salaries. About this, even the official authorities were forced to speak out. The prosecutor's office was instructed to strengthen work with debtors.

                        "Are there empty shelves in the stores?" You could even say so, the goods have risen sharply, the quality has fallen. The fact is that even in the stagnant and perestroika years, it could not be said that the shelves are completely empty.
                      2. maximnik0
                        maximnik0 12 September 2019 09: 09 New
                        +6
                        But you forgot against the background of what happened:
                        Cheap oil, astronomical debts from Chernobyl and Spitak.
                        Separatism of the republics — when the products were rotting, the whole fields were littered with sausage. In 2000, the price of oil grew and a savior happened, the price fell and it was intended to steal, it ended in abundance, tighten the belts.
                      3. Revival
                        Revival 12 September 2019 09: 23 New
                        +4
                        That's right!
                        Retirement is delayed and now everyone on 5 years.
                        In stores, if you leave what you can eat on the shelves, then the shelves will become empty
                  2. Dante Alighieri
                    Dante Alighieri 11 September 2019 18: 34 New
                    +23
                    You apparently didn’t live in 90x and you don’t see the difference

                    Oh no again ... You yourself are not tired of shuffling slippers to repeat the same thesis that smells of mothballs? I understand that you, being a well-deserved circus poodle, can no longer learn any new tricks, but this does not mean that everyone else is also affected by senile dementia.
                    We live here and now and stop scaring us with fairy tales about the "dark times". I was a kid then, but I remember that time well. And people, despite the fact that they lived many times worse, were better than my current contemporaries. And all because they were still Soviet people and they believed that everything would work out and they believed that they could break the current situation. However, in a well-fed and prosperous Putin's Russia, for some reason I stopped seeing this faith in the eyes of people. I stopped seeing in the eyes of my fellow citizens what made them creators and creators. Something difficult to distinguish, but extremely important, left their hearts. Now they are just biological mechanisms that fulfill a primitive goal: grab, grab, grab, live for a minute more than the other. And these are not empty metaphors. To understand this, it is enough to turn to the universal language of any nation - its culture, in particular to cinema as the most vibrant cultural component. Look into Sergey Bodrov’s eyes and compare him with the sleek counterparts of “generation idol” Petrov and answer the question: what is closer to you? Fed up not obscured by moral torment and, apparently, superfluous thoughts, the face of modern mummers, or a hard look “beyond the horizon” of the young but full-tasted nondescript romantics of the 90's? I choose the second. And for the sake of this, I am ready to give up many material goods. Refuse in order to again feel like a man who creates his own destiny and the fate of his country.
                    Well, to you the "older generation" my earnest request: go voluntarily to the churchyard of history, sprinkling ashes on your head. Your ancestors gave you a great country, but instead of handing it down to the next generation, you lost it to the cards. My country. The ruins of which continue to be home to me and millions like me. And now you scare us with the dashing 90s. You are bastards and hypocrites and it’s not for you to tell us how to live on. You sold what made you great for the sake of your inner rat, and therefore you are deprived of any moral right to condemn us. You are pathetic. I despise you.
                    1. Dart2027
                      Dart2027 11 September 2019 19: 36 New
                      0
                      Quote: Dante
                      You yourself are not tired of shuffling slippers to repeat the same thesis that smells of mothballs?

                      I heard a lot about Serdyukov ruining everything this way and that, but I never heard that anyone who scolded him for anything worth asking for the responsibility of those who ruined the SA. I do not know why.
                      1. Dante Alighieri
                        Dante Alighieri 11 September 2019 20: 00 New
                        +4
                        Your comment is not entirely clear, for my message was a little about something else. But if you want to explain. The collapse of the Soviet army is a tragedy, but falling from the top, although painful (primarily moral), is not fatal. The actions of Serdyukov are more likely reminiscent of a case when scammers throw money not at a rich frayer, but at a simple layman, for whom these small funds are the last thing there is. Do you understand the difference? For one, this is an unfortunate but feasible loss; for the other, it is a question of its very existence. And for the fact that this figure put the very foundation of the foundations of our society in a “borderline” position between the two antipodes, he will never be forgiven for this. I well understand what real political tasks Serdyukov faced, but I will never understand the thesis why their implementation should have cost such incomparable costs to our country.
                      2. Elturisto
                        Elturisto 11 September 2019 20: 17 New
                        -6
                        You are very mistaken about Serdyukov’s program. Study his real affairs, and not drafts on the Internet.
                      3. Dante Alighieri
                        Dante Alighieri 11 September 2019 20: 36 New
                        +12
                        .Study his real affairs, not drafts on the Internet.

                        His real business for me is that, on his orders, one of my distant relatives, who was just some GRU officer and passed through the crucible of the first Chechen campaign, was thrown out of the army as unnecessary garbage. And now it suddenly turns out that in Syria we are getting a “unique” combat experience. I understand that sclerosis has its advantages, because each time it becomes a woman with a woman, but when this experience is paid for with the blood of ordinary soldiers, I definitely do not intend to understand this.
                      4. Ruslan67
                        Ruslan67 12 September 2019 23: 49 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Dante
                        on his own, passed through the crucible of the first Chechen campaign. And now it suddenly turns out that in Syria we are getting a “unique” combat experience.

                        I want to swear sad Comparison of mountain Chechnya surrounded by Russian regions and the Syrian desert the size of the Caucasus and Transcaucasia combined + environment from hell knows who request It seems that those who lived in the USSR fall into insanity, and those present in it are born
                      5. Cat man null
                        Cat man null 13 September 2019 00: 23 New
                        -1
                        Quote: Ruslan67
                        I want to swear

                        Do not - mat! laughing

                        Quote: Ruslan67
                        and the current ones are born in it

                        Ruslan, hi Do not argue with shkolota - it's more expensive for yourself request
                      6. Ruslan67
                        Ruslan67 13 September 2019 00: 26 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Cat Man Null
                        Don't argue

                        I'm not much I'm alone request
                        Quote: Cat Man Null
                        Do not - obscenities!

                        Roma drinks Well, I want to winked
                        This is already some kind of transcendental level of liberal dibelism. What a topic you can’t get into.
                      7. Cat man null
                        Cat man null 13 September 2019 00: 31 New
                        -1
                        Quote: Ruslan67
                        I'm not much I'm alone

                        Damn ... that means I have two eyes in my eyes belay Received yes

                        Quote: Ruslan67
                        This is already some kind of transcendental level of liberal dibelism

                        Yes, not without it. I usually try not to argue with the hopeless, but reproaching them is easy ...

                        PS: reproach, according to the tradition of African tribes, is rendered by a large, soggy club. And for the lack of such a tool on the site - a minus sign wink
                      8. Ruslan67
                        Ruslan67 13 September 2019 00: 36 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Cat Man Null
                        reproach, according to the tradition of one of the African tribes, is rendered by a large, clotted club.

                        About these fool you can grind scrap
                        I thoughtfully re-read some here and became insane from insight:
                        I used to think that these were robots or for money ... Schaz! Prsto Alternatively offended at childbirth Concrete floor at such a tender age does not pass without a trace
                      9. Dante Alighieri
                        Dante Alighieri 13 September 2019 16: 32 New
                        0
                        I want to swear

                        Do not deny yourself anything, you can even stomp with your foot.

                        In general, I was always amazed at the childlike spontaneity that some visitors to the site relate to the fact that someone expresses a different point of view from their vision. Instead of listening to the opponent’s arguments and giving him his own, psychosis begins and labeling “agent”, “paid”, “liberal”, I'm not talking about making diagnoses. Yes, it’s better to be an “agent” than atavism so stiff in your mind, like these same commentators. So, you can quite consider it a public admission that I work for the White House and steal United Russia propaganda booklets from your mailboxes every evening wassat lol

                        And now in fact.

                        Firstly, in my commentary I spoke about the attitude to the personnel and the continuity of the accumulated combat experience in the Russian army. Moreover, this applies not only to the experience of the Chechen war, but also to Afghanistan, Angola and other military conflicts that my country waged throughout the entire 20 century. If you do not understand this - it is very annoying.

                        Secondly, as a counter-argument, you brought the difference between the climatic and supposedly friendly political environment. So here. If you didn’t know, our country is so huge that practically all climatic zones are represented in it, except for the equatorial and tropical ones and their sub variations. So, combat experience can be acquired in the course of military-tactical exercises. at the same time, I do not risk the lives of my fighters and experienced pilots, who are very long and expensive to cook. Or do you definitely need an action game? Please, give out penguins in the north automatic machines and you will get a “unique” experience in warfare in the Arctic lol Once again, for the gifted. There is nothing unique in the climate of Syria, and if it is, it is relevant exclusively for the Syrian theater of war and is no longer applicable anywhere in Russia and mainly for us European theater of operations. At least in the complex. Again, if Syria did not know this is not a whole desert. Even this, imagine the very mountains (located on the border with Turkey and Israel), which, although lower than the Caucasus, are quite stone, and also the steppe plains along the coast of Euphrates and Orontes. And after that you really want to tell me that the experience of the Chechen campaign there is not relevant? Oh well.

                        Thirdly, regarding the supposedly friendly environment of Russian regions. I understand that human memory is short, so let me remind you that, with friends like those who represented a number of subjects of the Russian Federation in the 90 years, the federal center could not have any external enemies (as it actually was). And it's not just about Chechnya. Dagestan praising the militiamen who are singing on TV today, was also in confrontation with Moscow and the situation there could well have developed into an acute phase if it were not for the reckless actions of Basayev and his militants, who persuaded Dagestan into the arms of the federal center. But to this day it’s not calm there, and the number of terrorist attacks (read latent discontent) is much higher than the one in Chechnya, which was simply flooded with money from the Russian budget. But beyond the Caucasus, everything was far from rosy. Remind you how Tatarstan almost shouted about its independence. Proclaim sovereignty and this would automatically break Russia in half. And this is true practically in relation to all national republics of that period, for which only one precedent was enough.

                        Fourth. The difference between the Syrian gangs and such criminal associations in Chechnya is absent kontetuly. Both here and there, irregular military formations tightly mixed with the civilian environment and constantly moving both geographically and status (today they are pro-government, tomorrow they are anti-government, today they are militants, tomorrow they are civilians, the day after tomorrow they are militants again). There are no differences (except for ethnicity) between them, because we are not conducting combat operations with centralized and organized military units that have the entire range of weapons available to today's armies, in Syria. Yes, of course, there were no pickups with machine guns in Chechnya (and if they were used, they were extremely limited), but this tactic was used by another well-known figure from Ukraine during the period when no one heard anything about Tayota’s products, so there was no innovation for the domestic military school this is not.

                        The only experience that we gain in Syria is the diplomatic experience of concessions and agreements, as well as the experience of commercial bargaining. But the Syrian conflict does not bear any military experience that we would have first gained if we had not forgotten the lessons of former warriors.

                        Now try to give reasoned The answer to the statements I have given, without imposing labels on me. It will be interesting to read (maybe).
                      10. Ruslan67
                        Ruslan67 13 September 2019 23: 57 New
                        0
                        Quote: Dante
                        you can even stomp a foot.

                        belay !? Argument however what
                        Quote: Dante
                        every night I steal propaganda booklets of United Russia from your mailboxes

                        Don't do this anymore stop Grandson collects waste paper for school
                        Quote: Dante
                        In my commentary I spoke about the attitude to personnel and the continuity of the accumulated combat experience in the Russian army. Moreover, this applies not only to the experience of the Chechen war, but also to Afghanistan, Angola and other military conflicts that my country waged throughout the 20th century.

                        There are no two similar wars. And time does not stand still. What is happening now in Syria was neither in Afghanistan nor in Chechnya and especially in Angola
                        Quote: Dante
                        with friends like those that represented a number of subjects of the Russian Federation in the 90s, you could not have any external enemies to the federal center at all

                        With logistics, how? Ossetia Stavropol Krasnodar Territory and Jordan Iraq Israel ... Delivery of all via Mediterranean or three countries by air
                        Quote: Dante
                        Both there and there, irregular military formations tightly mixed with the civilian environment and constantly moving both geographically and status

                        On the territory, see above, despite the fact that besides the feds, they rummage around and bomb everything horribly
                        Quote: Dante
                        Again, if Syria did not know this is not a whole desert. Even this, imagine the very mountains (located on the border with Turkey and Israel),

                        There were five in geography
                        Quote: Dante
                        The only experience that we gain in Syria is the diplomatic experience of concessions and agreements, as well as the experience of commercial bargaining.

                        If you had such before Germany could have been left without pants after our departure and with a drop of our bases
                        Quote: Dante
                        And now try to give a reasoned answer to the statements I have made, without imposing labels on me.

                        You are well prepared for all past wars, but in Angola and Ethiopia the tomahawks did not fly in packs Enough for a start?
                      11. Cat man null
                        Cat man null 14 September 2019 00: 14 New
                        -1
                        Quote: Ruslan67
                        Enough for a start?

                        Ruslan, hi , throw the hedgehogs to kick - this one definitely won't take off no
                      12. Ruslan67
                        Ruslan67 14 September 2019 00: 16 New
                        0
                        Quote: Cat Man Null
                        throw the hedgehogs kick

                        He requested a reasoned reply request I tried sad
                      13. Cat man null
                        Cat man null 14 September 2019 09: 00 New
                        -1
                        Quote: Ruslan67
                        I tried

                        Not in the horse (s) request
  3. Dart2027
    Dart2027 11 September 2019 21: 04 New
    +2
    Quote: Dante
    Do you understand the difference?

    Serdyukov is a “furniture maker”, and the USSR Armed Forces are falling apart
  4. Dante Alighieri
    Dante Alighieri 11 September 2019 21: 09 New
    +3
    Vidio still did not understand. What did I try ((((
  5. Dart2027
    Dart2027 11 September 2019 22: 50 New
    0
    Quote: Dante
    Vidio still did not understand

    Got what? The fact that those who ruined the army in the 90 years are not to blame for anything?
    Quote: Dante
    The collapse of the Soviet army is a tragedy, but to fall from the top, although it is painful (primarily moral), but not fatal
    Original. Or that?
    Quote: Dante
    this figure put the very foundation of the foundations of our society in a “borderline” position between the two antipodes
    Well, and in what position and what basis did he put?
  • dauria
    dauria 12 September 2019 01: 03 New
    -1
    You sold what made you great for the sake of your inner rat, and therefore you are deprived of any moral right to condemn us. You are pathetic. I despise you.


    Loudly ... Bravo ... It’s a pity, you grow up, "climb on each other to multiply" and you have to feed your "inner rat". One consolation is that among young people such Danko, tearing out their hearts to shine with others, well, very few. Mostly normal egoists, whom FIGs will make you "plow for the idea." And this is excellent - even without hypocrisy, that "everyone is equal and brothers" will build a decent bourgeoisie.
  • Revival
    Revival 12 September 2019 09: 25 New
    +3
    And he has a vinyl record spinning: “it’s the turn for iPhones”, “you didn’t live in 90”, “you need to work and not whine” and so on. 5, 6 tracks were recorded in the album “behind the breasts no matter why” and are regularly included in the network
  • Ptolemy Lag
    Ptolemy Lag 13 September 2019 09: 35 New
    +1
    The national idea has disappeared. Without an idea, we are zero. Enriching a bunch of friends ... obviously on nat. idea does not pull.
  • AUL
    AUL 11 September 2019 18: 57 New
    +5
    Quote: Lipchanin
    You apparently didn’t live in 90x and you don’t see the difference

    Why, then 90-e ... We didn’t even live under the serfdom! Therefore, they are dissatisfied.
    1. Revival
      Revival 12 September 2019 09: 28 New
      +6
      Especially when you consider that both 90 and the current "achievements" of the work of the same people
  • tracer
    tracer 12 September 2019 04: 13 New
    -11
    Apparently the minusers did not live in the nineties.
  • Antonina Ignatenko
    Antonina Ignatenko 13 September 2019 09: 37 New
    +1
    In the early 90's it was hard, because the difficulties were created artificially in the monogue in order to rock people. And in the second half it was restless, but there was hope, people were better, even Soviet ideals worked. Everyone thought: now, let’s build a developed capitalism and live! People started their business en masse, many succeeded. And today there is no hope. Therefore, you should thank Putin and Co., and send them on a well-deserved rest, confiscating incomprehensible property for which they will not be able to account.
  • Mikhalych
    Mikhalych 11 September 2019 10: 02 New
    +5
    Alexander Ivanovich Herzen

    The pillar of Russian liberalism, the illegitimate son of the aristocrat Ivan Yakovlev from the 16-year-old German Henrietta The Hague. Parents themselves came up with the name Herzen ("son of the heart", from the German "Herz").
    At his own expense, he, together with Proudhon, opened the Eye of the People newspaper in Paris. Sentenced to exile from Russia forever.
    The incest is a pervert. Married to cousin (cousin) N.A. Zakharyina. Then he recaptured the wife of his friend Ogaryov. The finished moral ur-d, like all liberals-Decembrists-left-wing revolutionaries. Glued fins in January 1870.
    fool
    1. Lipchanin
      Lipchanin 11 September 2019 10: 17 New
      -19
      Quote: Mikhalych
      Pillar of Russian liberalism, illegitimate son of the aristocrat Ivan Yakovlev from the 16-year-old German Henrietta The Hague

      Do not tell them about Karl Marx, who has been sitting on his neck for more than a year at Frisch Engels.
      karlusha children begot and asked for money. but still wrote the book. laughing
      1. Beringovsky
        Beringovsky 11 September 2019 12: 29 New
        +7
        Lipchanin, why did he remove the King of Odes in three parts?
        I saved

        Can share for collection
        1. Lipchanin
          Lipchanin 11 September 2019 13: 35 New
          -10
          I saved

          So do I. In the archive
  • Den717
    Den717 11 September 2019 09: 32 New
    -4
    Quote: Lipchanin
    Well, in the appendage

    We have a lot of the latter. And now this problem is more serious than even Serdyukov. laughing
    1. Lipchanin
      Lipchanin 11 September 2019 09: 39 New
      -23
      Quote: Den717
      We have a lot of the latter. And now this problem is more serious than even Serdyukov

      Or maybe the President knows better whom and where to appoint?
      Something yesterday I didn’t hear tantrums when he fired 30 generals and colonels.
      1. Den717
        Den717 11 September 2019 09: 58 New
        -12
        Quote: Lipchanin
        Or maybe the President knows better whom and where to appoint?

        So I think so. I do not think that one of the commentators can really appreciate the activities of Serdyukov as an economist. And he, by the way, collected the proof on which they put Khodorkovsky (just in case). Although Serdyukov is not my hero. And go. We have really a lot.
        1. Lipchanin
          Lipchanin 11 September 2019 10: 03 New
          -19
          Quote: Den717
          So I think so

          Fso laughing
          In deep minuses hit laughing
          1. Den717
            Den717 11 September 2019 10: 47 New
            -12
            Quote: Lipchanin
            In deep minuses hit

            I'm not worried about this. I’m interested in the pros and cons as a tool for understanding the level of a particular community. Depressing, frankly, the picture is drawn. One reassuring, not all of Russia here. Those overboard think a little differently, judging by the actual elections .....
          2. snake
            snake 11 September 2019 12: 15 New
            +8
            Quote: Den717
            I’m interested in the pros and cons as a tool for understanding the level of a particular community.

            And some use the brain as such an instrument.
            Quote: Den717
            Depressing, frankly, the picture is drawn.

            Yeah ... What to do, reality and cheers-patriotism are incompatible things.
            Quote: Den717
            Those overboard think a little differently, judging by the actual elections ...

            Those overboard are becoming less and less. There are no lifebuoys, but you hang on there!
          3. Den717
            Den717 11 September 2019 13: 16 New
            -9
            Quote: serpent
            And some use the brain as such an instrument.

            And you process what data with your brain, or is it your imagination?
            Quote: serpent
            reality and jingoism are incompatible things.

            I totally agree with you. Only here is bad luck, because you need to know what facts, documents, numbers, etc. Are you in an article, for example, what figures, facts did you see? What do you fill the brain with in order to know the world?
            Quote: serpent
            Those overboard are becoming less and less.

            Yah?! How old was it? How much has become? Information sources? Levada does not offer .... laughing
            Quote: serpent
            but you hold on there!

            Don’t worry about me; even pension reform doesn’t bother me much ... laughing
          4. vic02
            vic02 11 September 2019 14: 25 New
            +6
            because you need to know what facts, documents, numbers, etc.

            Primorsky Territory 2018. Putin’s candidate No. 1 for governor “flew like plywood”, and the CEC had to reassign the elections with a violation of the Constitution and change the law and put pressure on Zyuganov.
            https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Выборы_губернатора_Приморского_края_(сентябрь_2018)
            Khabarovsk Territory 2019. EdRo and Putin’s candidates “flew” completely.
            Sevastopol 2019. Considering that since the last election all the seats in the legislative assembly were occupied by EdRom, and now it is less than 40%, and this, taking into account the votes of the garrison, this is a defeat.
            https://news-mt.ru/blog/43707800562/Mnogopartiynoe-zak.sobranie

            Without the shameful performance with stuffing and carousels (deliveries, voting without a residence permit), which our elections turned into, the results of the government would be completely different. The following are specific facts about the current election.
            https://www.facebook.com/alexandr.talipov/posts/2470701963024034
            https://social.primechaniya.ru/blog/43408122434/Samozvantsyi,-narushiteli-i-moryaki:-kak-v-Sevastopole-proshel-d
          5. Den717
            Den717 11 September 2019 14: 45 New
            -5
            Quote: vic02
            Primorsky Territory 2018. Putin’s governor candidate 1 "flew like plywood"

            The article is the aviation industry, Rostec, Serdyukov. What does Putin's candidate have to do with the abolition of elections? You did not confuse the article?
          6. vic02
            vic02 11 September 2019 15: 15 New
            +3
            You should also paint a picture of understanding a particular community in your head without expressing your assessment if this does not correspond to the topic of the article:
            Depressing, frankly, the picture is drawn. One reassuring, not all of Russia here. Those overboard think a little differently, judging by the actual elections .....
          7. Den717
            Den717 11 September 2019 16: 35 New
            +1
            Quote: vic02
            without expressing your assessment

            And where is my assessment? I just asked you a question and do not say that it is good or bad. You don’t make decisions for me ...
      2. Mikhalych
        Mikhalych 11 September 2019 18: 50 New
        0
        EdRo and Putin’s candidates “flew” completely

        Do you think that those who came are the mind, honor and conscience of our era?
        what
      3. AUL
        AUL 11 September 2019 19: 09 New
        +2
        Quote: Mikhalych
        Do you think that those who came are the mind, honor and conscience of our era?

        No, of course. The main thing for people is that it’s not edgy!
    2. Fan-fan
      Fan-fan 12 September 2019 15: 36 New
      0
      Finally, the people cursed these who are from Edra.
  • AA17
    AA17 12 September 2019 11: 18 New
    +9
    Dear Den717 (Den). "... even pension reform does not bother me much ..." - Your phrase. This phrase says a lot. Your thoughts immediately become clear. Pension does not bother you. Therefore, you have a source of income that is higher than your current or future pension. You received this source of income under the current system. Your source of income is not connected with the work of industrial enterprises - this is unequivocal. Otherwise, your train of thought was different. You have the opportunity to comment on articles during business hours. Conclusion: you receive a substantial bureaucratic salary from the Budget (the pension will be OFFICIAL) or you receive income from an unfairly distributed profit when creating your surplus product by your employees. Both that and another you will defend. This system is for you dear. And this is logical.
  • Den717
    Den717 12 September 2019 12: 53 New
    -1
    Quote: AA17
    Conclusion: you get a solid bureaucratic salary from the Budget (the pension will be OFFICIAL)

    Using your rich laughing fantasy, you hit your finger in .... space. By analytical work, you won’t even earn on shoelaces. laughing I will not comment on the rest. Laziness.
  • Fan-fan
    Fan-fan 12 September 2019 15: 39 New
    -1
    Well then, the second option remains - you are just hopelessly dumb.
  • Den717
    Den717 12 September 2019 16: 26 New
    +1
    Quote: Fan-Fan
    you are just hopelessly dumb.

    Well, you yourself consider it the sharpest ... This is normal .. for children and adults with dementia ...
  • Beringovsky
    Beringovsky 11 September 2019 12: 24 New
    +5
    Depressing, frankly, the picture is drawn

    What is little fools? crying oh pichal-byad ...

    One reassuring, not all of Russia here. Those overboard think a little differently, judging by the actual elections .....

    Yeah ... the fools in Russia haven’t yet transferred ...
  • Den717
    Den717 11 September 2019 13: 18 New
    -4
    Quote: Beringovsky
    What is little fools?

    On the contrary. Excess.
  • Lipchanin
    Lipchanin 11 September 2019 13: 43 New
    -12
    Quote: Beringovsky
    Yeah ... the fools in Russia haven’t yet transferred ...

    One hundred pounds good
    Your comments are a prime example
  • Beringovsky
    Beringovsky 11 September 2019 15: 29 New
    +8
    Yah?!
    A minus you laughing
    By the way, why did you stage the show? Your Olgin brotherhood minus opponents even as, without any explanation, the whole shobla.
  • Dante Alighieri
    Dante Alighieri 11 September 2019 18: 38 New
    +8
    No, he simply fulfills his retirement by kissing the commanding loins. Well, what about him? He lived up to her and did not care for him, on the others. Rat logic in all its splendor
  • Lipchanin
    Lipchanin 11 September 2019 13: 40 New
    -6
    Quote: Den717
    I'm not worried about this. I’m interested in the pros and cons as a tool for understanding the level of a particular community.

    In 2014, this was not the case. Less, they say for what. Now, like bullying ATU him
    What does all this bullying goes on all branches.
    Nick saw without reading minus
  • Den717
    Den717 11 September 2019 14: 09 New
    0
    Quote: Lipchanin
    In 2014, this was not the case. Less, they say for what.

    Yes, everything was. Although, of course, it was interesting to listen to other people's arguments. Then, it seems to me, there were more commentators who were eager to speak on the essence of the issue. Today many have already been worn out by bani. winked
  • Lipchanin
    Lipchanin 11 September 2019 14: 28 New
    -5
    Quote: Den717
    Although, of course, it was interesting to listen to other people's arguments. Then, it seems to me, there were more commentators who were eager to speak on the essence of the issue.

    Now it’s easier to put a minus. Not for the post "ONCE FOR PUTIN, ATU MEANS ...."
    Just bewilderment, well minusanul, say in your understanding on the fingers for what.
    Tired of already seeing those who do not hesitate to see themselves smarter and the competencies of all others
    But in fact, in the life above the sofa, the seat was not torn off.
    Yes, "PUTIN IS GUILTY" laughing
  • Den717
    Den717 11 September 2019 14: 49 New
    +1
    Quote: Lipchanin
    Now it’s easier to put a minus. Not for the post "ONCE FOR PUTIN, ATU MEANS ...."

    Today, some fashion for opposition has gone. With argumentation, not everything is good. Well, who cares? I myself read it every other time, after five there is a desire to write something ....
  • Basarev
    Basarev 17 September 2019 09: 22 New
    0
    Everything is simple. You are either a true patriot, in the best sense of the word, or for Putin.
  • Fan-fan
    Fan-fan 12 September 2019 15: 42 New
    0
    Yes, many have already tried to explain to you, but all explanations bounce off you, like peas from a wall.
  • Fan-fan
    Fan-fan 12 September 2019 15: 34 New
    +1
    And the real last election just showed that the Edros received fewer votes than in the last election. They were not even helped by the cunning rejection of their party; they, like Putin, did not go to the polls for the party, but as self-nominated people.
    So you are mistaken, they think the same way overboard as those that you are building up cons.
  • minus
    minus 13 September 2019 08: 56 New
    +2
    This is not a deep minus))) Just a reflection of the position of visitors to the site) If the employees of the enterprises for which I have been working for 5 years put a price here ... For a couple of your answers you would become a general with gray epaulets .... And the elections .. .. Here we have the locals passed, so none of our friends went, unfortunately .... Who didn’t ask, one answer, tired of everything, we won’t go .... It’s scary that the position * is tired, leave it alone * can be exchanged for * tired of enduring, let's go smash! * ... Then everyone will not be laughing ...
  • snake
    snake 11 September 2019 12: 18 New
    +13
    Quote: Lipchanin
    Or maybe the President knows better whom and where to appoint?

    "And only the old parrot shouted loudly from the branches: - The giraffe is big, he knows better" (c)
    "Here comes the lord - the lord will judge us" (c)
    Quote: Lipchanin
    Something yesterday I didn’t hear tantrums when he fired 30 generals and colonels.

    The hysteria from fussing spiders in the bank happens only among arachnophobes.
  • The popuas
    The popuas 11 September 2019 08: 52 New
    +8
    Grows before our eyes tongue
    1. AUL
      AUL 11 September 2019 19: 12 New
      +2
      Quote: Popuas
      Grows before our eyes

      I would say it pops up higher. Did you hope it will sink?
  • The comment was deleted.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. The comment was deleted.
  • Flatter
    Flatter 11 September 2019 08: 29 New
    +19
    Security functions and engineering involve a different type of thinking. Somehow, at one of his conversations with the correspondents of the economic forum, Putin noted that we are not striving to become a superpower. Experience has shown that this is expensive and, in general, unnecessary. Such a philosophy determines the presence of Serdyukov
  • Lipchanin
    Lipchanin 11 September 2019 09: 19 New
    -22
    minus one laughing
    Who will deny
    Those who are now at the helm of the country in the Soviet era were insignificant, unpromising mediocrity

    What, in the KGB were "mediocrity"?
    Andropov brought up such cadres?
    . Since 1977, he worked as a counterintelligence officer in the investigation department of the Leningrad KGB Directorate [12]. From 1985 to 1990, he served in the Soviet Foreign Intelligence Service in the GDR for a year, worked undercover in Dresden
    1. ultra
      ultra 11 September 2019 09: 44 New
      +20
      Quote: Lipchanin
      What, in the KGB were "mediocrity"?

      There were different ones. Kalugin, Gordievsky, Petrov, Zaporizhsky, .... the list of traitors from the KGB is quite large.
      1. Lipchanin
        Lipchanin 11 September 2019 09: 52 New
        -15
        Quote: ultra
        There were different ones. Kalugin, Gordievsky, Petrov, Zaporizhsky, .... the list of traitors from the KGB is quite large.

        Clear. Name at least one organization where there were no traitors
        Horbachev, Yeltsin. Will you give this organization an example?
        And all those who were also listed as "members" were
        1. ultra
          ultra 11 September 2019 09: 59 New
          +15
          Naturally, “members” and all who are now “steering” the country were members and different good words were spoken when they joined the ranks of “members”. But this does not prevent them from building state-oligarchic capitalism in our country.
          1. Lipchanin
            Lipchanin 11 September 2019 10: 08 New
            -19
            Quote: ultra
            But this does not prevent them from building state oligarchic capitalism in our country.

            Well then, why didn’t the “member of the main board” vote at the polls himself? Sins do not allow?
            1. ultra
              ultra 11 September 2019 10: 09 New
              +7
              Why do you ask me this question? Here and ask Zyuganov. wassat
              1. Lipchanin
                Lipchanin 11 September 2019 10: 30 New
                -14
                Quote: ultra
                Why do you ask me this question? Here is Zyuganov and ask

                Oh how belay
                Naturally, "members" and all who now "steers" the country were members, and different good words were spoken when they joined the ranks of "members"

                It’s not like I’m justifying the "members" of his party
              2. ultra
                ultra 11 September 2019 10: 39 New
                +2
                In what place did I justify his members of the same party? Yes, and why should I justify them. wassat
              3. Lipchanin
                Lipchanin 11 September 2019 13: 46 New
                -12
                Quote: ultra
                In what place did I justify his members of the same party? Yes, and why should I justify them.

                Aha. Again, "mayayataskraya", but Putin is to blame laughing
                What doesn’t matter laughing
              4. ultra
                ultra 11 September 2019 14: 34 New
                +8
                It looks like you have some cliches in your head. laughing
              5. Fan-fan
                Fan-fan 12 September 2019 15: 47 New
                0
                And this Lipchyan complains that they don’t explain to him what the minus is, so try to explain this.
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 11 September 2019 10: 21 New
    +5
    State-oligarchic capitalism in our country was built under Yeltsin.
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 11 September 2019 10: 23 New
    +5
    Andropov was the initiator of the collapse of the USSR.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Dante Alighieri
    Dante Alighieri 11 September 2019 18: 50 New
    +8
    What, in the KGB were "mediocrity"?

    In one clever book the following is written: "by their fruits you will know them." And now answer me: if the people who were supposed to protect the integrity of the country allowed its collapse, what does this mean their professional competence? And if they took the helm post-factum, the logical question is, what prevented them from doing so earlier, before the new borders drew the maps of my country?
    I see only one answer to this question - they needed it that way. So they wanted it. And since they had a hand in this process, they are nothing but traitors. And among them the one that
    Since 1977, he worked as a counterintelligence officer in the investigation department of the Leningrad KGB Directorate [12]. From 1985 to 1990, he served in the Soviet Foreign Intelligence Service in the GDR for a year, worked undercover in Dresden
    1. Svarog
      Svarog 11 September 2019 19: 25 New
      +4
      Quote: Dante
      In one clever book the following is written: “by their fruits you will know them”

      Cyril, it’s useless for these people to prove something .. These people are trolls who get paid for the letter because there can be no other way, I don’t believe that the average layman would tear his shirt for Putin .. Putin did nothing good to the ordinary citizen .. Even the most zombie pensioner who only listens to Kiselyov and then, under the pressure of facts, simply remains silent, but here, as we see another case .. And he will not answer serious questions, there are no such answers in manuals
      1. Dante Alighieri
        Dante Alighieri 11 September 2019 20: 23 New
        +3
        it is useless to prove something

        I understand this very well, but for some reason lately I can less and less restrain myself. I don’t know about you, but lately I’ve been feeling something in the air. Something is coming. And these are not the predictions of a dormant oracle. There are many indirect signs. In particular, a lot of very non-stupid people have been sharply abstracting themselves from the ruling elite in recent times. If earlier they did not support it, but indirectly served it, now they are in stiff opposition to the authorities. And that really worries me. But the real trigger for me is something else. I have an institutional friend, who is called born with a golden spoon in his mouth. A wonderful family of former party functionaries who quickly changed their shoes for a new way and entered the power corridors of the new Russia: his uncle even served as the chief federal inspector in our region for quite some time. However, the family has its black sheep: my friend did not follow the path of a state functionary prepared for him, but decided to build his own destiny. And I respect him very much for that. However, his act never prevented him from being the most ardent apologist of the current government. And recently, in a private conversation, he directly declares to me that his only desire is to have time to sell the business (a small network of caffeine) and get out of the country before here, I quote: "the batch will begin." The only question he asked me was how soon will this happen: before 24 or after? But as I said, I’m not Cassandra to answer such questions. However, the fact that he is "blood from the blood" of today's country allows himself such conclusions, causes the most serious concern.
        1. Svarog
          Svarog 11 September 2019 20: 47 New
          +6
          Quote: Dante
          but lately I’ve been feeling something in the air.

          As for me, hopelessness is saturated in the air .. I personally don’t feel any changes or revolutions .. but I see that the country's population will decline, living conditions will worsen, and the country will plunge into the abyss more and more. "Leave all hope that comes in here" -that can be written in the passport.
          What you write about your friend really has a place to be who is young enough, passionate and has the means, everyone thinks about moving to permanent residence in another country, because they think not only about themselves, but about children .. Everything degrades here, education, medicine, science, an ordinary citizen has no chance .... but people, at the same time, have the opportunity to compare with other countries, many think about it, and many have already moved .. And as for the changes, then in the coming 7 -8 years they definitely will not be, I mean for the better. We don’t have a consolidating personality / party that could make a difference. Navalny, as I see it, is Putin, but a side view when the government appears will not change anything much. Only an idea that most, but ideological leaders, can change ready to sacrifice their well-being is not yet .. therefore, hopelessness ..
          1. Dante Alighieri
            Dante Alighieri 11 September 2019 21: 06 New
            +3
            Regrettably, you are right. The only thing I’m hoping for is that, as the dead man Dorenko said, that we will have the same national-minded scumbag that will turn over the established order of things and then our tanks will stand on Khreshchatyk, as they once stood in Prague . But Novalny is not capable of this, and there will be no majority for him. Udoltsov could, but there is no power behind him. However, the Bolsheviks, too, were once a small value, and yet they were able to lead the masses after themselves. The only question is to create an alternative decision-making center, and for this it is necessary for those in power to initiate the process themselves through internecine showdowns. And here their greed can play into our hands. In general, as the inhabitants of Odessa say: we will see hi
      2. godun
        godun 11 September 2019 20: 52 New
        +3
        No - no, there are many of them. My neighbor, a man who is generally clever, recently with some kind of frenzy began to quote a non-guarantor about the benefits of sanctions and other nonsense, about how well we will live after the thirty-fourth year, and this is not an isolated case.
        1. Svarog
          Svarog 11 September 2019 20: 54 New
          +2
          Quote: godun
          No - no, there are many of them. My neighbor, a man who is generally clever, recently with some kind of frenzy began to quote a non-guarantor about the benefits of sanctions and other nonsense, about how well we will live after the thirty-fourth year, and this is not an isolated case.

          You are lucky, I met a lot of such five years ago, but lately even those who thought so have changed their minds ..
          1. godun
            godun 11 September 2019 22: 08 New
            +3
            Yes, there are fewer stubborn ones, the refrigerator wins, but often, seeing a deterioration in life, they don’t really delve into the reasons for the decline in living standards, scolding, say, governors for mediocre rule, no one remembers who imposed them on them.
  • vic02
    vic02 11 September 2019 11: 09 New
    +11
    1985 to 1990 year
    In these years, including the KGB, she had a hand in the collapse of the USSR, so service in this organization in these years is not a plus, but a huge minus in a person’s career.
  • snake
    snake 11 September 2019 11: 44 New
    +12
    Quote: Lipchanin

    You also forgot to add that Fairytale made all friends with billionaires and took pensions from people for five years. Well, not everyone can do that.

    The nightmare of the enemies of Russia ...

    A terrible nightmare !!!
    1. Lipchanin
      Lipchanin 11 September 2019 13: 50 New
      -17
      Quote: serpent
      You also forgot to add that Fairytale made all friends with billionaires and took pensions from people for five years from the people

      Yes, just tired of commenting. GDP has told 3 times why it was necessary to do so
      Apparently on the site recently. Did not see the EXPLOSION of patriotism and enthusiasm "CRIMEA OUR"
      1. snake
        snake 11 September 2019 22: 32 New
        +10
        Quote: Lipchanin
        GDP has told 3 times why it was necessary to do so

        Why did friends have to make billionaires? Or are you talking about pensions? Do you even understand that this damned reform will do business? This conditional million, which was pulled out of the pockets of Russians, is only a small part of the ills that will bring about an increase in the retirement age. Among other things, this includes, among other things, a blow to demography (with which, as we know, the trouble is). Here and so, young people have no hope for tomorrow, and they still have such a “gift”. And rumors have already begun that they can raise it before 70. And then completely cancel. And, it would seem - rumors are rumors, but knowing what kind of ghouls are sitting in the government, you will involuntarily think: what the hell is not joking ...?
        Quote: Lipchanin
        Yes, just tired of commenting.

        Who needs your comments here? They don’t like fake food anywhere. The case of the clip Timati is an example. You played the devil's lawyer.
        1. Cat man null
          Cat man null 11 September 2019 22: 48 New
          -6
          Quote: serpent
          Who needs your comments here? They don’t like fake food anywhere. The case of the clip Timati is an example. You played the devil's lawyer

          And you, my friend, imagined yourself only as Prosecutor of Lord Gd wink

          You go on, go on ... really fun yes
          1. snake
            snake 11 September 2019 23: 23 New
            +2
            Quote: Cat Man Null
            really funny

            "We will amuse good citizens
            And at the pillory of shame ... "(c)
            1. Cat man null
              Cat man null 11 September 2019 23: 31 New
              -4
              Yes, good luck. Do not replay only, and then - neither give nor take - the spilled Vshinsky laughing
          2. user
            user 15 September 2019 21: 16 New
            0
            You go on, go on ... really fun yes


            I’m just wondering when, suddenly, something like the Maidan or the October Revolution or the October Revolution happens to someone you like and personally they will lean you against a brick wall, maybe like some kind of organizer, participant or just a hostage. Do you remember this post or also consider that

            You go on, go on ... really fun yes


            From the history of Russia it is known that everyone is surprised - how could this happen?

            I do not call for anything, but simply urge everyone to think a little about the consequences of such a policy.
    2. godun
      godun 11 September 2019 20: 59 New
      +8
      Yes - yes, and the head of government, a winemaker from Tuscany, in the ruling circles in general, the norm is to have dual and triple citizenship, and keep families in NATO countries.
  • vic02
    vic02 11 September 2019 11: 13 New
    +6
    Those who are now at the helm of the country in the Soviet era were insignificant, unpromising mediocrity
    From scratch, this does not occur. Decomposition began in the USSR — corruption of power, clandestine workshops, products “to the left” —all this grew gradually.
    1. ultra
      ultra 11 September 2019 12: 41 New
      +4
      Quote: vic02
      . Decomposition began in the USSR — corruption of power, clandestine workshops, products “to the left” —all this grew gradually.

      Naturally, the root cause of this is the CPSU, or rather its ideological dogmas and inability to change.
  • Saul_Rhen
    Saul_Rhen 12 September 2019 18: 09 New
    +2
    Recall where the "wise leadership" of the CPSU taxied in the end?
  • populist
    populist 11 September 2019 09: 30 New
    +8
    Quote: 210ox
    This is not a personnel problem ... It's just ... some shame ...

    We have one personnel problem. The people elect the old president. crying
    1. Lipchanin
      Lipchanin 11 September 2019 09: 41 New
      -15
      Quote: populist
      We have one personnel problem. The people elect the old president.

      Aha. Like a coastline from ONE candidate
  • tihonmarine
    tihonmarine 11 September 2019 09: 32 New
    +10
    Quote: Alex66
    I do not believe that it is impossible to find an official who is not stained by scandals with a special, rather than a joiner's profile.

    Well, there is also the river fleet motor-sailor Mutko.
    1. Lipchanin
      Lipchanin 11 September 2019 09: 44 New
      -13
      Quote: tihonmarine
      Well, there is also the river fleet motor-sailor Mutko.

      And they immediately called you a General in the SA?
      Or are you only working in ONE job? Did not try to grow?
      1. tihonmarine
        tihonmarine 11 September 2019 12: 23 New
        +5
        Quote: Lipchanin
        And they immediately called you a General in the SA?

        Well, if you like minder Mutko and Corporal Serdyukov, I don’t mind. As the people say, "Who likes horseback, and who likes pop."
        Did not try to grow?
        So that later all would show with a finger, like Serdyukov.
        1. Lipchanin
          Lipchanin 11 September 2019 13: 52 New
          -9
          Quote: tihonmarine
          Well, if you like minder Mutko and Corporal Serdyukov,

          Sorry, but where did Stalin get his education? Who did you study for?
  • tihonmarine
    tihonmarine 11 September 2019 12: 35 New
    0
    Quote: Alex66
    that it is impossible to find an official with a special profile, not a joiner's profile, not stained by scandals.

    Joiners saw very well, and even better cut the chips. (Well, how a tree is turned into sawdust).
  • parusnik
    parusnik 11 September 2019 06: 16 New
    +13
    And it seems to us that we still need our own aircraft. And the military, and transport, and civilian, and special.
    .... The fact of the matter is that we still need it ... And after the miraculous transformation of the once-international MAKS air show into a branch of the Chinese Airshow China air show, optimization will not be needed .. Our Chinese comrades will help us ...
    1. Lipchanin
      Lipchanin 11 September 2019 09: 46 New
      -11
      Quote: parusnik
      ..And after the miraculous transformation of the once-international MAKS airshow into a branch of the Chinese airshow Airshow China and

      Masterpiece good
      So it’s like someone bought the area for display, and there he put
      Who prevented others from displaying their products? Putin
  • Valery Valery
    Valery Valery 11 September 2019 06: 32 New
    +20
    Who believes in Serdyukov, as a genius (well, or just good) economist or manager?
    No need to answer. This is a rhetorical question!
    But another question is really interesting: What is the connection between Serdyukov and the current government, if Anatoly Eduardovich is unsinkable ?!
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. Russian jacket
        Russian jacket 11 September 2019 08: 12 New
        +1
        I will not say for Serdyukov. But I believe my son. He served in the 2012 year in the Far East in the area of ​​radio intelligence and electronic warfare, where he got after a university almost in the specialty .... According to him, over the year of his service, the equipment and equipment were radically updated, the supply, power and equipment improved. So not everything is so simple.
      2. The comment was deleted.
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. Lipchanin
            Lipchanin 11 September 2019 08: 49 New
            -26
            Quote: kepmor
            God was merciful from sin ..

            Well yes. It’s a terrible sin to earn money and feed your family. What kind of sect is this? laughing
            such as you lost ..

            Close nebylo laughing
            and never regretted it ..

            BLAH BLAH BLAH laughing Why then about a feeding trough from which you DO NOT FORGET? laughing
            I don’t even send back the remaining verbal diarrhea laughing
            1. kepmor
              kepmor 11 September 2019 09: 04 New
              +14
              Lipchanin, there is no sin in earning money and feeding the family ... there is a sin in the methods of earning ... only you apparently do not know ...
              Yes, and leave me alone with this "feeding trough" ... unlike you, I never aspired to this slop ... not mine, it ... squeamish ...
              feeds his work ... sin to complain ...
              I say goodbye to sim ... it's time to work ... have a nice day everyone ....
              1. Lipchanin
                Lipchanin 11 September 2019 09: 32 New
                -19
                Quote: kepmor
                There is no sin in making money and feeding the family ... there is a sin in ways of earning ..

                Yah belay
                and personally know who is there and how to make money?
                You need to know so much ... right google some
                .only you apparently do not know ...

                It’s known. He earned himself. No one was sitting on his neck. I never envied those who earned more than me
                feeds his work ... sin to complain ...

                Complaining.

                . work time ... have a nice day everyone.

                Good luck in all matters
                Simple drinks
                1. Alexander Ra
                  Alexander Ra 11 September 2019 11: 04 New
                  +11
                  Quote: Lipchanin
                  Complaining.

                  If we were beggars, we would not need a trick with paper vouchers. They didn’t notice what Chubais and Gaidar did in 90 with the construction by their grandfathers-fathers, what now will there be “no revision”? Gorbachev-Yeltsin-Putin - a single chain.
                  1. Lipchanin
                    Lipchanin 11 September 2019 14: 33 New
                    -8
                    Quote: Alexander Ra
                    They didn’t notice what Chubais did with Gaidar in 90 with the construction of their grandfathers

                    A year already 2019
                    1. snake
                      snake 11 September 2019 22: 47 New
                      +5
                      Russia under Putin ...

                      Not Russia, but Moscow or St. Petersburg. Not Russians, but a small prosperous part of Muscovites or Petersburgers. And if the iPhones sold on every corner, like bread, there would be no lines. What do you keep people for fools by presenting this stupid demotivator? Come here also a joke about the fact that under Putin, computer performance has increased. Or, as an indicator, the number of billionaires. Well, what? In 90's - 0, in 2019 - 100. And yachts have bred among the “Russians” ... Living well, but living well is even better.
            2. Beringovsky
              Beringovsky 11 September 2019 09: 36 New
              +12
              Well yes. It’s a terrible sin to earn money and feed your family.

              The prostitute on the panel also feeds the family. And a thug and a thief and a bribe taker, they all feed.
              I don’t even send back the remaining verbal diarrhea

              Do you collect? wassat
              1. Lipchanin
                Lipchanin 11 September 2019 10: 00 New
                -14
                Quote: Beringovsky
                The prostitute on the panel also feeds the family

                Feeds. Does she take money from you by force? There will be no demand, there will be no prostitutes. Is that even clear? Don't give a bribe
                And a thug and a thief and a bribe taker, they all feed.

                Again they shook. Am I talking about this crime that I said?
                Do you collect?

                Aha. I look forward to when they open the water closet in VO and merge FSO there
                1. Revival
                  Revival 12 September 2019 08: 55 New
                  0
                  Well, now everything is clear ...
                  Surprised but, in your comment you justified and supported the prostitute
                  1. Fan-fan
                    Fan-fan 12 September 2019 16: 06 New
                    -1
                    Probably used her services quite often, that’s what he justified.
            3. AUL
              AUL 11 September 2019 19: 26 New
              +2
              Quote: Lipchanin
              Well yes. It’s a terrible sin to earn money and feed your family.

              Mistresses in the family?
    2. Svarog
      Svarog 11 September 2019 08: 45 New
      +5
      Quote: Valery Valery
      What connects Serdyukov and the current government with this, if Anatoly Eduardovich is unsinkable ?!

      So everyone is tied up there, everyone is sharing with each other .. Hand, washes a hand .. There is no other way to explain.
    3. depressant
      depressant 11 September 2019 08: 57 New
      +15
      Yes, Serdyukov was a furniture dealer and successful. He was also young then, very handsome, and, most importantly, had an extremely courageous appearance as a hero of American militants, which is a rarity in our times - was that why he was originally successful? It is now he has turned into a kind of seasoned uncle. And then ... Apparently, the women were thrilling. They were seduced by the daughter of Zubkov - Julia. Serdyukov immediately divorced the former half and married Julia, either earlier separated from her husband, or on the occasion of the temptation of Serdyukov as a “hero”. After the wedding, the guy’s career went uphill.
      The question is who is Zubkov.
      In 70, he is the director of a state farm. In 82, he is the general director of an agricultural association. Since 1985 of the year - a party career in increasing order to the deputy head of the Leningrad Oblast Executive Committee. Here is such an honest communist, devoted to the cause of the party, government and the Soviet people. And then - once! - And Putin’s deputy at the city hall of Leningrad 91-th on 93-th. And then - two! - and in the 2001-m Deputy Minister of Finance of the Russian Federation, in 2004-m - the head of Rosfinmonitoring. In 2007 - the head of government, in 2008 - castling with Putin and until 2012 - deputy Putin. After - Gazprom and te te.
      Yes, now Serdyukov is divorced from Julia, but there is a daughter Natalya, granddaughter of Zubkov. In general, a family cullo, through the prism of which it is difficult for the characters to consider the country's interests, and they don’t have such a need.
      1. AAK
        AAK 11 September 2019 09: 12 New
        +5
        Now Taburetkin has a new role - in the series "Steep Dive" .... from which many who will not come out ...
      2. bober1982
        bober1982 11 September 2019 10: 47 New
        -10
        Quote: depressant
        And he was then young, very handsome, and, most importantly, had an extremely courageous appearance as a hero of American militants, which is rare in our times

        Lyudmila Yakovlevna, you would have to write sentimental novels, your talent disappears.
        Quote: depressant
        Apparently, women were thinning

        From your books, everyone would just be blushing.
      3. Den717
        Den717 11 September 2019 10: 57 New
        -5
        Quote: depressant
        Yes, Serdyukov was a furniture dealer

        Exactly. With this information, you are here and hang noodles for everyone ... But didn’t you hear that he still commanded the tax inspectorate? And the fact that he exposed your Komsomol activist Khodorkovsky, and the court put him down, also does not count? What are you worth? The country was slammed, and now blame everyone except for the former Partigenigenosses in all troubles ....
        1. depressant
          depressant 11 September 2019 15: 36 New
          +2
          Dan...
          Serdyukov married Julia in the 2002 year, therefore, at the same time entered the Zubkov-Putin clan. Well, remember what year Khodorkovsky was arrested! Remembered? And what are the dates talking about?
          The fact that Khodorkovsky was imprisoned was clear to me immediately after a short television report about Putin’s meeting with the oligarchs. You do not remember, but I remember such things. So tell you! You should have seen this derogatory, mocking look of Khodorkovsky with which he “gifted” Putin. Like, I'm a billionaire, and who are you in front of me? I was horrified and said to the screen: "Boy, the head of state is in front of you! You can’t look at the president like that, you’ll sit down!" Not sat down? The rest who attended the meeting were adults, or even older people, wise in life. They kept an impenetrable appearance and, therefore, at present wisely and cunningly feed themselves from the National Welfare Fund while not earning any profit, and not very smart Khodorkovsky served his life for his sins, and now he is saved abroad. But meanwhile, there not only Khodorkovsky, there everyone and everyone who was present at that meeting could be planted. But he framed himself, and Putin got furious and showed who was the boss in the house. But Khodor, if he was smarter, if he had a flair, could go to the necessary agreements with Putin, wisely resolve the situation. Yes there is no mind there! And there is pride. So I received it, becoming not so necessary a sacred sacrifice - capitals quickly ran abroad! And they are still running. None of the oligarchs want to invest in Russia.
          So, do not flatter yourself. Serdyukov is not the initiator, Serdyukov is only the executor of the will of the customer. They said “Fas!”, Indicated the object, and he took it.
          This is the first.
          And the second - it is that I do not blame, I am exploring how it happened that we all ended up in a potential energy hole. I have been doing this for almost a year at VO. I reveal errors. That in the historical vicinity was not to consider. Learn from these mistakes, Dan. Otherwise, then you have to research your own.
          1. Den717
            Den717 11 September 2019 16: 46 New
            -4
            Quote: depressant
            So, do not flatter yourself. Serdyukov is not the initiator

            What Serdyukov performed is in action. And what you said hung in the air and disappeared. Whether it was or not - who can prove it? Want to position yourself as an oracle? Not even funny ...
            Quote: depressant
            I’m exploring how it happened that we all ended up in a potential energy well. I have been doing this for almost a year at VO. I reveal errors

            Today, there are many experts. All write about the pit and about the mistakes. Who is your research in demand? What did you warn with these studies? Any work is worth something if there is a practical result behind it. What have you achieved?
            1. depressant
              depressant 11 September 2019 17: 17 New
              +5
              That my words entered your subconscious and stuck there. At the right, perhaps a bitter moment will come up. And you will say: "Oh! They warned you ..."
              But it will be even better if you think about it now. Forewarned, then armed, right?
              Here, for example, I understand you. You have a certain stable financial position, and you would like it to always be this way. Believe me, life is full of vile vicissitudes. They were fewer in the Union, even in its worst years, and now you live and don’t know what awaits you tomorrow.
              And tell me, would it be worse if Putin surrounded himself not with his loyal ones personally, but smart and patriotic? Just do not pull.
              1. Den717
                Den717 11 September 2019 17: 33 New
                -2
                Quote: depressant
                my words entered your subconscious

                Why did you get this? For your words to lie in my consciousness, at least, you must express an extraordinary thought. But this did not happen. I do not observe your complete thought at all. All strokes are some kind - you warn about something, you research something. Catch up fog instead of specifics. And I haven’t told you anything yet, so that you understand me. I have already lived long over half my life, and are you trying to tell me about the vile vicissitudes? Do not be so naive. That new that you want to tell me, I already managed to survive and forget.
                Quote: depressant
                And tell me, would it be worse if Putin surrounded himself not with his loyal ones personally, but smart and patriotic?

                Tell me, have you ever picked up your own deputies? I see that no. Any leader will strive to take as his assistants people on whom he can rely, like-minded people. Are you sure that everyone near Putin is personally loyal to him, and not to the business entrusted to them? Well, yes, of course ... Everything is different there, there are grabbers .. We are here endlessly for all the good versus all the bad ... So? In my opinion, the team should work for its leader, otherwise it will be worse.
                1. depressant
                  depressant 11 September 2019 18: 28 New
                  +3
                  Dan, be a little more careful. I was not talking about your consciousness, but about the subconscious. These are different categories. The subconscious mind is smarter than consciousness. Anyway...
                  You say that the team should work for its leader. I agree completely. It would be strange if it were the other way around. Tell me, when Serdyukov stole state funds, who did he work for? This leader ordered him to steal, or what?
                  1. Den717
                    Den717 11 September 2019 19: 05 New
                    -4
                    Quote: depressant
                    when Serdyukov stole state funds, who did he work for?

                    Is the theft proven? Case, court and so on? Various kinds of abuse of authority were most likely. But it is unlikely that today you will find a large leader crystal clear white and fluffy. Everyone has certain violations, and the larger the position, the louder the resonance from the violation. But as the IVS used to say, there are no perfect people; the main thing is that the balance be positive. And if Putin decided that he needs Serdyukov in some function, then he knows who and where he is appointing, and also for what he can remove him. Do not consider yourself holier than the Pope.
                    1. depressant
                      depressant 11 September 2019 20: 38 New
                      +4
                      Dan, you constantly turn your attention from Serdyukov’s personality to mine. A priori, considering me not holier than the Pope, reproaching the fragmentation of consciousness, you thereby deprive me of the right to accuse Serdyukov of anything, therefore, you justify him.
                      But no matter how sinful and stupid I am, this does not negate the fact that under the leadership of Serdyukov, millions of people fell into a private pocket.
                      And they hushed up the story because Serdyukov is the father of Zubkov’s granddaughter. The girl should not have such a spot in the biography.
                      And making condescension to Serdyukov, you thereby affirm that the state. Treasury - a repository of funds of employees of the state apparatus related to family relations. Well, think about it - they took it, they got it, they compensated, though not completely, with whom it does not happen!
                      So, it turns out?
                      But in my opinion this should not be so. Your position is an excuse for crime.
                      And what kind of leader do we have forgiving this? Or knows how to work only with blurred ones?
                      So here you are flying over, because we are no longer talking about loyalty to the leader, only about dependence that can turn into betrayal.
                      I do not like this, and therefore I continue to insist: there is no need to justify the sinfulness of a government official by the sinfulness of an ordinary citizen. We are not on the same board with him. I am not equal in authority to him. I and Serdyukov have different levels of responsibility to the state and the consequences of our identical actions are not comparable. In my view, he is guilty and not so indispensable.
                2. Svarog
                  Svarog 11 September 2019 19: 33 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Den717
                  Any leader will strive to take as his assistants people on whom he can rely, like-minded people

                  Nonsense is complete, you surely don’t understand anything in managing people .. do not care about the faithful and like-minded people, for me personally the final result is always important .. everything else is lyrics.
                  And when a person leads the country, he does not have the right to lyrics at all, he doesn’t even belong to himself anymore, unless of course he’s really a statesman and not a yard boy .. Look how Stalin ruled .. try not to fulfill what he promised .. Putin’s irresponsibility all around, he became dependent on his environment, and not on the other side .. Mutual responsibility, nepotism, corruption, manipulation of facts and reality, that’s what Putin achieved ..
                  1. Den717
                    Den717 11 September 2019 19: 45 New
                    -3
                    Quote: Svarog
                    for me personally, the end result is always important .. everything else is lyrics.

                    You have not yet erected a monument, are you our faultless? In your opinion, like-minded people are bottle partners?
                    Quote: Svarog
                    he became dependent on his environment, and not on the turnover.

                    Trying to talk about something that you don’t absolutely know. Maybe you built the BAM or Dneproges, of course, it’s not for me to judge. But the "memoirist" you are notable. So what? Who will check your accomplishments, write, the paper will endure everything .... the monitor is even more so. You tell me here the "general management theory" write .....
                  2. Den717
                    Den717 11 September 2019 20: 20 New
                    0
                    Quote: Svarog
                    Nonsense is complete, you’re sure you don’t understand anything in managing people ..

                    Maybe, compared to you, I don’t understand anything in management. But my subordinates earned me medals and certificates, a "labor veteran" with bonuses. And the plans were fulfilled, and at night he came to work only according to the planned reinforcements. I dragged one assistant for myself in three different offices and knocked out the salary above other deputies, because I knew that the order would be executed as I imagined, at any time and without any hint of "Italian strikes." Because today is calm in the current reformist time, like a boa constrictor. And so, yes, I may not be an academician like you. But I didn’t have to launch satellites either, there was no need for geniuses. So, think of it, some kind of workshop for 1300 people and 750 units of equipment with two "autonomous vehicles" ....
                    1. Svarog
                      Svarog 11 September 2019 20: 23 New
                      +2
                      Quote: Den717
                      And so, yes, I may not be an academician,

                      And here you generally ... talk about the head of state was .. and you tell your biography, you do not need to compare the responsibility of the teacher and the head of state .. it is very different, and therefore the demand is different. And if you stand up for the guarantor, then bring arguments in his favor, and not talk about yourself.
                      1. Den717
                        Den717 11 September 2019 20: 38 New
                        -5
                        Quote: Svarog
                        And here in general you ..

                        Well, probably despite the fact that a little earlier
                        Nonsense is complete, you’re sure you don’t understand anything in managing people ..

                        Yours I answered you.
                        Quote: Svarog
                        no need to compare the responsibility of the teacher and the head of state .. it is very different, and therefore the demand is different.

                        I'm not against. And you, shy to ask, have you already asked with EBN? BUT? What did you answer? Did you ask Gorbachev? That's it .... It’s not about you that Olympus. You don’t even know what is being done there ... And there too .... nepotism, corruption are mutual responsibility. You present something real, not article headings. I won’t give anything in favor of GDP, because I don’t know him personally and I don’t know who commands him. But I chose him, and since I live with him better than the bulk in Ukraine, I think that I was not mistaken. You may not be happy with him, but still, do not offer any other better. Therefore, all this nonsense is empty ...
                      2. Svarog
                        Svarog 11 September 2019 20: 51 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Den717
                        Therefore, all this nonsense is empty ...

                        You can’t argue with that .. it’s not possible for you and the like to prove obvious things, you live in parallel reality ..
                      3. Den717
                        Den717 11 September 2019 20: 53 New
                        -2
                        Quote: Svarog
                        it is not possible for you and the like to prove obvious things, you live in parallel reality ..

                        My whole life has already proved to me. And since I succeeded, it seems to me more comfortable in my reality than you in yours. Sorry...
                      4. Svarog
                        Svarog 11 September 2019 21: 00 New
                        0
                        Quote: Den717
                        My whole life has already proved to me. And since I succeeded, it seems to me more comfortable in my reality than you in yours. Sorry...

                        Life is a success laughing You know, you can see very young .. and categorical for this. Life sometimes brings surprises, and especially in our country .. take your time to summarize .. And then, for some reason, those who think only of their soft spot cannot even imagine that there are people who are not specifically worried about themselves, but in general, about the country, its people .. it probably sounds pathetic for you .. I’m also not bad at all — unless, of course, I’m summing up and life has been successful or not, it will be possible to say on his deathbed ..
                      5. Den717
                        Den717 11 September 2019 21: 13 New
                        -2
                        Quote: Svarog
                        You know, you can see very young.

                        Well, yes, I don’t consider myself an old man, although I have been measuring the 9 level for a long time. The other day I remembered youth thirteen minutes thirteen laid. And yes, I worry about the country, especially when I read VO. And I’ll go out to work, I calm down, a few. However, there are still those who think. I think about the people more often, especially about those who are nearby. And there, thank God, everything is according to plan .... Think about the commentators from VO? ...... are you somehow .... Teaching you to live is no more stupid undertaking, your own cones, they are the most instructive, but whom they don’t teach, there’s nothing more for me to do there. If you prefer pouring bile on each fence, then this is your problem .. laughing
  • Den717
    Den717 11 September 2019 09: 34 New
    -4
    Quote: Valery Valery
    Who believes in Serdyukov, as a genius (well, or just good) economist or manager?
    No need to answer. This is a rhetorical question!

    And what can you say about him as an economist or manager? Only in examples or in documents, if possible.
  • tihonmarine
    tihonmarine 11 September 2019 09: 37 New
    +5
    Quote: Valery Valery
    Serdyukov and the current government, if Anatoly Eduardovich-unsinkable ?!

    Officials of this rank have the genetic link "grab, grab and grab a grab." Take, for example, Mutka and Serdyuk and others, as if "one-day-old males" hatched from the incubator.
  • Far B
    Far B 11 September 2019 06: 48 New
    +17
    As long as Chubais-Serdyukovism does not sink, nothing good can be expected. So we will slide into .... Recently, out of the corner of his eye, one American little Kinch watched 2017, it seems, the year of birth, about how once again omega sleeps humanity. But there is an international group of scientists gathering under the general guidance of Americans and, mascara !, Chinese. They didn’t even remember about Russian scientists. It’s clear that little dagger, it’s clear that American, but the trend is obvious.
    The second point: when Lavrov explained why Ketai should not be called the "elder brother" of Russia, he called the first - an economic superpower, and us - a military superpower ... That is, now it is even stated at the official level that we, except to rattle with arms , is unable to offer anything else on a global scale. All this is somehow sad.
    in the Soviet style “all for the good of the state”, financing itself independently, at the expense of borrowed funds.
    Strongly reminiscent of the situation with the territories / regions / republics, which are still gaining loans today, do not indulge in the most, in order to try to fulfill the "May Tales" of Solntseky. As a result, the regions are heavily in debt, and the federal center is constantly furious with pride that the country's budget is being executed with a surplus. Well cho, we are on the right track, gentlemen.
    Strange, but for some reason the state continues to pour money into the Superjet.
    But never once is it strange, if you recall how many times billions have tumbled into the same Auto TAZ. Woz seems to be there now? Damn, I don’t know, somewhere after the fifth loan I’m tired of watching this circus. But maybe Lada-Strawberries is now in great demand on the international market, and a specially developed pop-car of the Lada-Gooseberry brand is carrying the Pope ...
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 11 September 2019 09: 39 New
      +2
      Quote: Far In
      As long as Chubais-Serdyukovism does not sink, nothing good can be expected.

      As long as they are Russian aviation will not become a wing.
      1. depressant
        depressant 11 September 2019 16: 09 New
        +5
        Yeah...
        Our president seems to be hypnotized. In the 2005, Poghosyan charmed Putin with fairy tales about the Superjet, and so he disrupted the production of the near-medium-range Tu-334, for which all the documents were ready. And the golden rain poured on the superjet - due to the rest of the aviation industry.
        By the way, Poghosyan is a member of the presidential council. Many-sided Serdyukov!
    2. Beringovsky
      Beringovsky 11 September 2019 09: 45 New
      +2
      But never once is it strange, if you recall how many times billions have tumbled into the same Auto TAZ. Woz seems to be there now?

      And the WHA is nothing at all.
      They made a feeding trough from VAZ. All the state aid went into this hole. What, with this money they bought new equipment? Not. Have you introduced new technologies? Not. Invested in research, design work, etc.? Not.
      So where did this money go, ask a question.
  • kjhg
    kjhg 11 September 2019 06: 57 New
    +26
    350 billion is certainly a big debt, but not critical. UAC main loss annually brings on 15% Russian Sukhoi Superjet. If not the whole amount of debt, then most of it arose “thanks” to this particular plane. From the very beginning, specialists and experts from all sides shouted that one should not give up the development of the only civilian aircraft in the country to an enterprise that never produced civilian aircraft. But Poghosyan, taking advantage of his good relations with Putin, nevertheless dragged and planted this delayed mine under the entire UAC. Today we have what we have.
    The appointment of Serdyukov will lead to the fact that the country's aviation industry will be reduced to a minimum level. The proceeds from the sale of property and land will be stolen, Serdyukov’s mistresses will have even more luxurious apartments and decorations, and the country will remain at the trough of the once mighty aircraft industry. Putin's management system will again prove itself in all its glory.
    1. Svarog
      Svarog 11 September 2019 08: 46 New
      +15
      Quote: kjhg
      Putin's management system will again prove itself in all its glory.

      Well, what are you .. this is a multi-port and tricky plan ..
      1. kjhg
        kjhg 11 September 2019 10: 53 New
        +7
        Quote: Svarog
        This is a multi-path and tricky plan ..

        Are you hinting that Serdyukov will be given the second star Hero of Russia?
        1. Svarog
          Svarog 11 September 2019 10: 59 New
          +4
          Quote: kjhg
          Quote: Svarog
          This is a multi-path and tricky plan ..

          Are you hinting that Serdyukov will be given the second star Hero of Russia?

          It’s easy .. we have many examples when people who are supposed to sit feel very well .. And medals, orders .. in general, they are distributed by conveyor ..
          1. kjhg
            kjhg 11 September 2019 11: 18 New
            +7
            The main problem is that people who should sit themselves decide who to plant. Take the same Prosecutor General Seagull. Navalny has long given all the dealings on him. Or, take Bastrykin. So he was a friend and the roof of the so-called "looking at Russia" Shakro Molodoy. And he visited the former senator Arashukov almost every week in his palace.
            While such people are the main fighters against corruption, it will continue to flourish here.
    2. Wolverine
      Wolverine 11 September 2019 11: 34 New
      +2
      Quote: kjhg
      350 billion is certainly a big debt, but not critical. UAC main loss annually brings on 15% Russian Sukhoi Superjet. If not the whole amount of debt, then most of it arose “thanks” to this particular plane. From the very beginning, specialists and experts from all sides shouted that one should not give up the development of the only civilian aircraft in the country to an enterprise that never produced civilian aircraft. But Poghosyan, taking advantage of his good relations with Putin, nevertheless dragged and planted this delayed mine under the entire UAC. Today we have what we have.
      The appointment of Serdyukov will lead to the fact that the country's aviation industry will be reduced to the basic level. The proceeds from the sale of property and land will be stolen, Serdyukov’s mistresses will have even more luxurious apartments and decorations, and the country will remain at the trough of the once mighty aircraft industry. Putin's management system will again prove itself in all its glory.


      Well, sooooo hard to disagree, Serdyukov was appointed as the most experienced in the looting of the giants of the aircraft industry.
      1. depressant
        depressant 11 September 2019 20: 58 New
        +3
        They say his thesis is two volumes describing 100 tax evasion methods. Apparently, now this is the handbook of all our corrupt officials.
  • savage1976
    savage1976 11 September 2019 07: 11 New
    +7
    Of course we fly, in flight.
  • cobalt
    cobalt 11 September 2019 07: 16 New
    +10
    Imagine how many chairs and lockers you can put on airplanes, it’s not to stick them in helicopters, a paradise for a furniture maker.
  • rocket757
    rocket757 11 September 2019 08: 04 New
    -1
    And it seems to us that we still need our own aircraft. And the military, and transport, and civilian, and special.

    Unpleasant thoughts ... and what conclusions can be made, it can become very bad!
    Hope dies last, maybe someone else can be found in the likeness of Shoigu ???
  • RAE8
    RAE8 11 September 2019 08: 06 New
    +5
    "Flying", after which, it seems, only remains to say, "well, here we are."
    1. depressant
      depressant 11 September 2019 09: 18 New
      +4
      The most amazing thing is the annual spending on secret budget items. I calculated on 55 rubles, it turned out 85 billion bucks. Colleagues calculated on 66, received 75 billion - in the same currency. In any case - a giant annually withheld amount. Where does this money go?
      Someone suggested that on secret military projects. But money is allocated for such projects in the lines of the military budget. So where to? In our conditions, it would be possible to raise the entire aviation industry to an unattainable height.
      Look, even Trump is stripping one billion from the military, then several tens of millions, Congress grumbles, and yet the wall and its contents are a grandiose project, it is visible. Where does the gigantic money of secret articles on our budget go? Why are they not invested in development so that we can see?
      Don't we need planes for our own needs?
  • bober1982
    bober1982 11 September 2019 08: 08 New
    -7
    The Air Force rearmament program for new equipment was laid down precisely at the time when Serdyukov was the Minister of Defense, this applies to attack helicopters and front-line aircraft. Moreover, in a quick and short time.
    Take Su-34.
    The plane was essentially left to its own devices (before Serdyukov was appointed to the post of Minister of Defense), the Air Force did not want to “take it”, because they managed to convince the previous minister that it would be better if the Su-24M was modernized, which was done A modification of Su-24M2 appeared, and the program for Su-34 was inhibited. The re-equipment itself was incredible, as everything was done quickly and competently. And, this is just one example, on one plane, and there are many such examples.
    I will make some explanation why the Air Force ovs were initially cautious of the Su-34, but this is of course my personal opinion.
    At one time, the Su-24 was simply "kicked out", it was made as a fighter-bomber, but the IBA officers themselves were certainly not enthusiastic about it, saying ...... we don’t need such a plane, and Su-24 in the end “gave up” the FBA, where the plane earned honor and respect.
    At the time of the debate, which is better than the Su-34 or the upgraded Su-24, the "war veterans" defeated, since the Su-34 is already a fighter, and this causes some wariness (on the part of the bombers)
    It was Serdyukov who correctly resolved this dispute.
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 11 September 2019 09: 47 New
      +2
      Quote: bober1982
      The Air Force rearmament program for new equipment was laid down precisely at the time when Serdyukov was the Minister of Defense

      Corporal Tolya Serdyukov (reminiscent of another corporal) became the Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation in the 2007 year and "laid down" the program (or put it behind the collar), but 12 years have passed, we are still "laying it down. Question" When will the hangover begin?
      1. bober1982
        bober1982 11 September 2019 09: 54 New
        -1
        Confusing your comment, I must say.
        1. tihonmarine
          tihonmarine 11 September 2019 12: 27 New
          +3
          Quote: bober1982
          Confusing your comment, I must say.

          It may be confusing, but if it’s simpler, then how Serdyukov got it confused, it’s still not to unravel.
          1. bober1982
            bober1982 11 September 2019 12: 29 New
            -1
            Much easier, why not unravel?
    2. Pavel57
      Pavel57 11 September 2019 10: 11 New
      -1
      At that time, the decision on the Su-34 was correct. But now Serdyukov will optimize the nomenclature and the Novovosibirsk issue will come up again.
      1. bober1982
        bober1982 11 September 2019 10: 20 New
        -2
        Quote: Pavel57
        At that time, the decision on the Su-34 was correct

        I did not quite understand what was the correct decision on the Su-34 - to slow down or rearm?
    3. balunn
      balunn 11 September 2019 11: 15 New
      +2
      The effectiveness of Serdyukov as Minister of Defense was shown by criminal cases and huge amounts of stolen funds. Or do you also think that he was not in the know?
      1. bober1982
        bober1982 11 September 2019 11: 18 New
        -6
        Quote: balunn
        revealed criminal cases and huge amounts of stolen funds

        I, not an investigator and not a prosecutor.
  • Azis
    Azis 11 September 2019 08: 16 New
    +8
    It would be better instead of Korshunov in Naples was Serdyukov (and other "officials").
    I believe that the main task of all Ros (those of nano, atom, hydro, networks) and "united corporations" is the sale of the remnants of state property, shares of companies with state participation, which is touted as "attracting partners and investors." Looks like the Federal Property Management Agency is no longer managing trade. It is enough to look at their sites - with the exception of several sanatoriums / recreation centers - these are factories, enterprises, scientific institutes, etc. At the same time, for all these Ros * and O * K losses exceed profit, which accordingly requires additional injections of state funds.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. Pavel57
        Pavel57 11 September 2019 10: 14 New
        0
        You still remember the car Iveco.
    2. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 11 September 2019 09: 49 New
      -2
      Quote: Azis
      Looks like the Federal Property Management Agency is no longer managing trade. It is enough to look at their sites - with the exception of several sanatoriums / recreation centers - these are factories, enterprises, scientific institutes, etc.

      Well, everything goes the way of the southern neighbor.
    3. depressant
      depressant 11 September 2019 21: 10 New
      0
      That's right, you are right.
      Putin has set a condition for the cabinet, according to which, starting from 2016, state property should be reduced by 10% annually. The office tensed up, but over the time since then it was possible to reduce everything by 9% of the total. It is impossible to destroy successfully operating enterprises. And nobody decides to buy them. The average private owner is strangled in a corrupt embrace. And everyone sees it.
      Does someone need such an unenviable share?
      1. Cat man null
        Cat man null 11 September 2019 21: 19 New
        0
        Quote: depressant
        Putin has set a condition for the cabinet, according to which, starting from 2016, state property should be reduced by 10% annually

        belay And is there a corresponding document?

        And it will turn out like yesterday - about the "depressive Far East in the USSR" request
        1. depressant
          depressant 11 September 2019 22: 01 New
          -1
          Co-oh !!!
          Cat, sniff please! love
          1. depressant
            depressant 11 September 2019 22: 44 New
            0
            Okay. It was a pity, conscience tortured wassat
            So it is. 2016-th - a trial year, state-owned enterprises were closed by decision.
            From December 21 to 2017, already by Putin’s Decree on Competition, annually by 10%.
            The motive is to develop this feature of capitalist production, as well as to improve the business and investment climate.

            According to Rosstat from 2016 to 2019, the number of legal entities in state ownership decreased by 9% - from 65,5 thousand to 59, 6 thousand. And the number of companies with state participation is by 30% (from 1557 companies to 1084).
            Of them
            The number of state-owned companies in the processing sector - 3 times
            Wholesale, retail, repair work - by 42%
            Construction - on 33, 5%
            Agriculture, forestry, hunting and fishing - by 19,4%
            Health and social services - by 18%
            Education - on 7,5%
            Culture, sports, recreation - on 5%.

            Optimization, competition, improving the business climate!
            Total already 5900 state enterprises.
            1. Cat man null
              Cat man null 12 September 2019 13: 35 New
              -1
              Um ...

              Signed a Decree on the main directions of state policy on the development of competition


              There are no "10% per year" in this document no request

              However: in this document there is a reference to the order of the Government of the Russian Federation of 5 September 2015, No. 1738-p:


              Here in it - there are already some "percentages", but they relate exclusively to the following industries:

              - Market for pre-school education services
              - Market of services for children's recreation and recreation
              - Market for additional education services for children
              - Market for medical services
              - Market for cultural services
              - The market of housing and communal services
              - Retail
              - Market for passenger transportation services by land
              - Market of communication services
              - Market for social services

              It seems so far no "crime", no? wink

              There is n. 13. Improving the management processes of state property of a Russian subject
              Federation - limiting the influence of state enterprises on competition, but with a very characteristic caveat:
              ---
              "with the exception of enterprises engaged in activities related to the defense and security of the state, as well as those included in the list of strategic enterprises"
              ---
              Again - "no crime," right?

              And now the question is: where did you get

              Quote: depressant
              annually at 10% ...

              ... as I understand you, for all-all-all?

              Well, that's just very interesting ... repeat
  • Undecim
    Undecim 11 September 2019 08: 23 New
    +11
    Despite the odiousness of Serdyukov’s figure, the question is not in Serdyukov’s appointment.
    Aircraft industry is not a thing in itself. This is part of the country's economy. And this part of the economy is functioning in accordance with certain economic laws.
    Therefore, for its existence, the industry must produce a cost-effective minimum of competitive products. Otherwise, it becomes unprofitable and degrades.
    If we take the civilian aircraft industry, then at this stage there are very few options.
    The first. Start producing competitive products in volumes that ensure the financial and technical development of the industry.
    All sane people understand that at present there are no technical and intellectual resources for this.
    Second. To put the industry on the "contentment" of the state, as it was in the USSR, to release "what we can," and to ban all Russian air carriers from using any aircraft other than those manufactured in Russia.
    Again, everyone understands that today no one will take such measures.
    And the third one. Optimization. Here Serdyukov will optimize. And here the figure of the optimizer no longer plays a role, since the volume to which they will optimize is probably already defined "from above".
    1. Den717
      Den717 11 September 2019 09: 44 New
      +1
      Quote: Undecim
      And here the figure of the optimizer no longer plays a role

      Bravo! The first intelligible comment ....... hi
    2. Snakebyte
      Snakebyte 12 September 2019 13: 38 New
      -1
      Admittedly, he optimized the army well. During the Second Chechen War, they couldn’t recruit 65 of thousands of active bayonets (Putin himself admitted this), as a result, they actually lost the war and pay tribute to the proud Ichkeria in exchange for peace. They could not recruit 65 thousands when there were more than a million military personnel in the army! Where have they all been? In units deployed by mobilization, with a full set of canned equipment and a minimum of ordinary personnel, only to protect and sweep the territory. Here Serdyukov also dispersed these supply managers in uniform, guarding the mountains of long-obsolete trash. The state farmers, of course, do not agree with this, they were deprived of such a convenient and safe opportunity to "defend their homeland."
  • prior
    prior 11 September 2019 08: 38 New
    +7
    The so-called "elite" of Russia somehow quietly turned into its undertaker, its grave digger, and its crap.
    Farewell to the unwashed Russia, "effective managers" from Gazprom, Rosneft and Rostec will not give you a wash.
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 11 September 2019 09: 52 New
      +2
      Quote: prior
      The so-called "elite" of Russia somehow quietly turned into its undertaker, into its grave digger,

      Our great thinkers wrote about this (about the elite) at the beginning of the 19 century, but Vladimir Ilyich Lenin wrote brighter and more capaciously about it. So there is nothing new.
      1. Saul_Rhen
        Saul_Rhen 12 September 2019 18: 31 New
        -1
        Isn't this the Lenin who ruined the country into German money?
  • Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy 11 September 2019 08: 42 New
    -1
    The problem of their (debts. - Approx. Aut.) Embroidery requires a comprehensive solution with the participation of the state. The issue is now being worked out in close contact with federal executive bodies. At the same time, we understand that state assistance obliges us to make significant changes to the operations of the UAC and, possibly, will lead to a reform of the aircraft industry as a whole
    The question is what is meant by the state, the government? Then Khan aviation industry. And liberal banks will help him finish it off.
  • maximon2005
    maximon2005 11 September 2019 08: 51 New
    -5
    Which are all fucking smart. If only to cheat. NOT made aircraft - bad. They made the Superjet bad ... It’s already done over 170. 2 disasters are not the fault of the plane. Repair logistics is already being decided and will be no worse than foreign. They will make both 200 and 300 modifications and put their engines. Everything is decided, but not everything quickly, after the collapse of the Soviet aircraft industry. And if you listen to the mourners of the liberals, we will sponsor foreigners by buying airbases and Boeing .... But they will again begin to whine that there is no one ..
  • maximon2005
    maximon2005 11 September 2019 08: 52 New
    -1
    https://topwar.ru/81286-operaciya-serdyukov-krupneyshiy-geopoliticheskiy-uspeh-rossii-nachala-hhi-veka.html
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 11 September 2019 09: 01 New
    +3
    It was argued that Serdyukov and his young ladies were a cover operation carried out on real army reform. What we now see.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. bober1982
        bober1982 11 September 2019 09: 34 New
        -4
        Quote: Oleg1
        to the branch of the Chinese airshow Airshow China

        This, incidentally, is something new, apparently such an instruction was received "from above" - ​​to untwist, and the "singers" immediately voiced.
      2. Beringovsky
        Beringovsky 11 September 2019 12: 08 New
        +8
        IMHO you are a liar, in the 92m the USSR was no longer there, but there was an EBN with Gaidar, Chubais and Andrew Kozyreff.
        Here is the USSR, for example

        https://nosikot.livejournal.com/5855281.html
        And it’s ridiculous to compare IL 62, made completely in the Union, with Superjet assembled from imported components on 70-80%.
        By the way, EVERY issued and sold Superjet incurs losses that are inevitably covered (in one way or another) from other projects, while foreign participants receive guaranteed PROFIT - from each aircraft and engine (the share of imported components is approximately 70%)! It is clear that this position is very reminiscent of parasitism. They profit - to us losses that are absorbed at the expense of the Russian budget, that is, our account. In essence, we support Western producers with our taxes. In how.
    2. AU Ivanov.
      AU Ivanov. 11 September 2019 09: 20 New
      +4
      This is not a cover operation. It was simply easier for Serdyuk, as a person not connected with the army, to clear out the Moscow Region and the General Staff: he did not serve with any of the generals, did not study, did not drink vodka and did not go hunting. No solidarity with the army, no friends and comrades in this circle - it is easier to wave a saber.
  • steelmaker
    steelmaker 11 September 2019 09: 09 New
    -1
    This is the state’s policy - no competent specialists are needed, loyal authorities are needed. Putin said: "I have no officials, they are my colleagues." Or something like that. And such a policy in every region and enterprise. For something to change, you need to change the power. And the people are happy with everything or do not care. The elections showed it.
    1. bober1982
      bober1982 11 September 2019 09: 19 New
      -4
      Quote: steel maker
      And the people are happy with everything

      Quote: steel maker
      Elections showed it

      Why then change the power, if everything suits. You specifically, in fact, can say something? Why engage in rallies.
    2. Den717
      Den717 11 September 2019 09: 52 New
      -1
      Quote: steel maker
      Putin said: “I have no officials, they are my colleagues.

      And you become a leader with the right to select assistants for yourself, then you will tell who you need to choose for yourself.
  • ultra
    ultra 11 September 2019 09: 39 New
    0
    “Greatly undermined the revenues of JAC“ Superjet ”, which they planned to produce (and sell, which is important) up to 70 pieces per year. However, this did not happen, and the queue did not line up for Sukhoi Design Bureau.“ I never heard about the plan of 70 boards always about 60, for the 2019 year of “all types” contracts, there were 400 onboard + 67 options, delivered to 157 airlines.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. ultra
        ultra 11 September 2019 10: 04 New
        +4
        We can only produce 80 boards when we completely close the entire line of airplanes. But the fact that we got into the wide-body project with China on its terms can only be called wrecking.
      2. Oleg1
        Oleg1 11 September 2019 10: 17 New
        -4
        “In pre-reform years, aircraft production in the Soviet Socialist Republic ranged from 100 to 200 units per year (of which 60 – 70 are for civilian use)”
        And now I recall that in Russia in 2011, 110 aircraft were produced, of which 20 were civilian. Is there a lag? Certainly, but far from what is commonly believed.
        Russia ranks second in terms of military aircraft production (more than 100 aircraft in 2010 year), helicopter industry (267 helicopters in 2011 year, in 2014 year more than 300 helicopters) - in the 3 position in the world (6% of the global helicopter market). In 2013, it took first place in the number of fighters exported in 2009 — 2012.
        In 2017, the following aircraft were produced: 101 military, 32 civilian, helicopters: 213

        What are we groaning all the scouts? Not tired of lying?
        The results are no worse than those in the USSR ...
        So cry ...
        1. ultra
          ultra 11 September 2019 10: 41 New
          +2
          I just didn’t understand one thing, in what place did I “cry”? wassat
      3. Beringovsky
        Beringovsky 11 September 2019 10: 51 New
        +5
        That is, everything is gut with the Superjet, and behind it is the turn of foreign customers?
        Yes, you directly burn napalm all laughing
        1. ultra
          ultra 11 September 2019 12: 45 New
          0
          With it, not everything is “gut”, it would be “gut” when there were 80% of domestic components in it, and not 70% of imported ones. Well, now this cannot be returned, so the program was conceived.
  • New Year day
    New Year day 11 September 2019 10: 11 New
    +2
    I know one thing, it’s easy to break, it’s difficult to build. For some reason Serdyukov does not believe in a positive result
  • BAI
    BAI 11 September 2019 10: 15 New
    -4
    Well, about the fact that there is no new technology. But what about the Superjet? MS-21? Tu-204?

    And where are they? At exhibitions in single copies? If we can’t make civilian aircraft (technologically behind for a long time, if not forever), then we don’t have to spend money on them. Cheaper to buy abroad. By the way, the whole world does it. And does not feel flawed.
    In general, it’s right, we need to reduce costs. It’s a business to do, not a reverse sweep, passing it off as the greatest achievement. We got another Roscosmos with Manilov’s dreams.
    1. Oleg1
      Oleg1 11 September 2019 10: 34 New
      -2
      Quote: BAI
      Well, about the fact that there is no new technology. But what about the Superjet? MS-21? Tu-204?

      And where are they? At exhibitions in single copies? If we can’t make civilian aircraft (technologically behind for a long time, if not forever), then we don’t have to spend money on them. Cheaper to buy abroad. By the way, the whole world does it. And does not feel flawed.
      In general, it’s right, we need to reduce costs. It’s a business to do, not a reverse sweep, passing it off as the greatest achievement. We got another Roscosmos with Manilov’s dreams.

      Superjet production by years, delivered:
      2013 - 5, 14 g - 8, 15 g. - 14, 16 g. - 27, 18 g. - 21, 19 g - 25, Total flies 118 boards ... cry on ...
    2. ultra
      ultra 11 September 2019 12: 47 New
      +2
      What are you talking about? 157 SSJ boards are already with customers. request
      Quote: BAI
      Cheaper to buy abroad. By the way, the whole world does it.

      It seems to you that Gaidar’s “laurels” do not give rest? negative
    3. voffchik7691
      voffchik7691 11 September 2019 14: 03 New
      +5
      BAI
      “It’s cheaper to buy abroad. By the way, the whole world does this”
      But do not explain why the Americans forbade the Japs to sell us the composite, which is necessary for the wings of the MS-21?
      Why aren’t we selling a superjet to Iran? Because there is "made in usa" equipment and Uncle Sam doesn’t allow us ...
      Perhaps soon, after the next sanctions, neither bobiki nor watermelons will be able to fly up. Or even worse, they will begin to fall from heaven to earth ...
  • Alecsandr
    Alecsandr 11 September 2019 10: 20 New
    +3
    Fly .....! Like plywood over Paris. Is it still not clear to anyone that capitalism means making a profit in any way, even at the cost of closing factories and enterprises if it promises momentary profits.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • avia12005
    avia12005 11 September 2019 10: 27 New
    +11
    I propose to open a sweepstakes at VO. I put 10 against 0,0000000000000001 that after the reforms of Serdyukov, the Russian Federation will forget about civil aviation in general from the word "completely".
  • Oleg1
    Oleg1 11 September 2019 10: 36 New
    -5
    Quote: avia12005
    I propose to open a sweepstakes at VO. I put 10 against 0,0000000000000001 that after the reforms of Serdyukov, the Russian Federation will forget about civil aviation in general from the word "completely".

    As in the Russian army, he also directed it ...., ok ... its complete collapse was clearly shown by Syria ....
  • Stalker84
    Stalker84 11 September 2019 10: 43 New
    0
    Well, no words, decent ... I remembered about another brainchild of Serdyukov, a Moscow boarding school for girls at the Ministry of Defense. It was originally planned that it would be a “boarding house of noble maidens”. And it turned out to be something terrible, something like a prison for girls of juvenile delinquents. But it’s not hooligans from the street who are being recruited there, but the best of the best, and then for several years they break the psyche. Incidentally, this institution is on the balance of defense. And according to employees, a million per year is spent on a foster child. This is just for content. Can optimization begin by transferring this misunderstanding to the balance of mines of education? Who cares about articles in the press and in VK, for example, where former pupils tell all sorts of bad things.
    1. bober1982
      bober1982 11 September 2019 12: 24 New
      -4
      Quote: Stalker84
      And it turned out something terrible, something like a prison for girls of juvenile delinquents.

      It is easier to enter a cosmonaut detachment than to a given institution. Why are you catching fear.
      1. Stalker84
        Stalker84 11 September 2019 12: 52 New
        +3
        You read non-parallel articles in the newspaper or eulogies in the news. And I studied those reviews there. I met one graduate. An adult girl, goals went after a boarding school and psychological problems are still being investigated. Plus, the parents simply cheated, promised a super education and admission to any university in the country. But it turned out that there is a program like in a regular school, well, with some nuances and no preferences when entering. Another mode, a meeting with parents a month once, diet food, vegetables, cabbage and so on. Sweet is generally a rarity, and you cannot bring it with you. And these are growing organisms. The complete lack of socialization, since the institution is completely closed. There are a lot of things, if you find it interesting. I just don’t know if it’s possible to throw links to supporter resources here. In VK there is a good group, "Your mother in the sect," there they discussed this topic more than once. In the comments and links there.
        1. bober1982
          bober1982 11 September 2019 12: 58 New
          -3
          I, not special in such establishments that I heard from respected people, then said.
          1. Stalker84
            Stalker84 11 September 2019 13: 12 New
            +1
            Well, here you can draw an analogy with the famous Smolny. "Dear people" were delighted. In fact, the boarding school was a rather nasty institution where the pupils were kept in cold and hunger. They did not give a normal education and socialization. But apparently everything was decent.
            1. bober1982
              bober1982 11 September 2019 13: 18 New
              -2
              I can’t say anything, I don’t know, I was not interested, although I can hardly believe it - just the same in hunger and cold. An article or something, who would write, or what horrors.
              1. Stalker84
                Stalker84 11 September 2019 13: 20 New
                +1
                Well, there was a book of a pre-revolutionary writer, a graduate of the Smolno Institute. I read excerpts. A very heavy impression left read. Reminded of something novel - "Jane Eyre"
                1. bober1982
                  bober1982 11 September 2019 13: 28 New
                  -1
                  In “Junkers,” Kuprin seems to have no such horrors; in the novel, pretty and healthy girls are shown.
  • iouris
    iouris 11 September 2019 10: 48 New
    +1
    So fly by!
  • yehat
    yehat 11 September 2019 11: 29 New
    +4
    A strange phrase, to be honest. Somewhat incomprehensible, there was no cooperation?

    let's just say she was very weak. There are no broad conditions in the contracts, there is no policy of a contractual line with a permanent counterparty. I'm not talking about the fact that in our military-industrial complex they like to independently create 20 bicycles and completely ignore a number of important areas.
    The capitalist problem also arose with cooperation - enterprises work for profit, not for defense industry.
    An article about torpedo weapons slipped here - this is a typical example when a supplier simply works for itself, and not for the fleet. And really, a lot needs to be done, here Serdyukov is right.
    But what he will do in reality is a big question. I do not believe that he will solve structural problems.
  • xax
    xax 11 September 2019 11: 35 New
    +9
    Serdyukov, among other things, at one time destroyed: the Irkutsk, Yeisk, Stavropol and Tambov Higher Military Aviation Schools (the list may not be complete).
    As a result of this, now the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation are experiencing an acute shortage of pilots (in the 2017 m, Shoigu estimated the deficit in the 1300 pilots in a report in the Duma!). Aircraft in many parts canned, no one to fly on them.
    Serdyukov, as a “talented manager,” is able to see the problem from unexpected angles. If there are more planes than pilots, this does not mean that there are few pilots - this means that there are many planes! And Serdyukov, having received the KLA, will solve this problem (with an excess of aircraft) in two ways!
    This kind of “work on mistakes” can happen. Fun?
    1. bober1982
      bober1982 11 September 2019 13: 46 New
      -2
      Quote: xax
      Tambov Higher Military Aviation Schools

      In, 1995 a year, covered up.
      1. xax
        xax 12 September 2019 00: 35 New
        0
        From wikipedia:
        In 2009, the school was disbanded

        1. bober1982
          bober1982 12 September 2019 05: 40 New
          +1
          You confuse, it was disbanded in the 1993 year, and not in the 1995 year, and of course not, in the 2009 year.
          Moreover - this date is 1993 year, and according to Wikipedia
          and, from the official website of the school.
        2. bober1982
          bober1982 12 September 2019 07: 25 New
          +1
          From Wikipedia: 12.02.1993 the school was disbanded, the same information on the official website of the Orenburg Higher Military Aviation School for Pilots named after I.S.Polbin
          Do not be fooled.
          1. xax
            xax 12 September 2019 09: 36 New
            0
            Quote: bober1982
            Do not be fooled.

            This tells me the person whose school was disbanded in 1995, then in 1993. Your statements, literally through the post:
            Quote: bober1982
            In, 1995 a year, covered up.

            Quote: bober1982
            1993 the school was disbanded


            But in the end, what happens, what in 2009? Maybe we are talking about different schools?
            Here is a link to Wikipedia, where it is written in black and white: disbanded in 2009.

            https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Тамбовское_высшее_военное_авиационное_инженерное_училище

            I'm waiting for your links from you.
            1. bober1982
              bober1982 12 September 2019 10: 33 New
              -1
              I can wish you, and further complement your list.
              1. xax
                xax 12 September 2019 10: 46 New
                0
                Quote: bober1982
                I can wish you, and further complement your list

                It is unpleasant when they catch on lies? )
                And you do not lie
            2. bober1982
              bober1982 12 September 2019 10: 41 New
              +1
              Tambov Higher Military School for Pilots named after M.M. Raskova - disbanded on 26.08.1995, by order of the Government N1168
              Source - Wikipedia.
              Do not fantasize, and do not cheat.
              1. xax
                xax 12 September 2019 10: 57 New
                0
                Ok, we watched articles about different schools. My Aviation School (closed at 09) trained technical aviation specialists, yours (closed at 95) trained pilots.
                1. bober1982
                  bober1982 12 September 2019 11: 46 New
                  +2
                  Understood, you can get confused, without 100 grams.
                  1. xax
                    xax 12 September 2019 12: 42 New
                    0
                    I apologize if I was impolite
                    1. bober1982
                      bober1982 12 September 2019 12: 51 New
                      +1
                      And, you accept my apologies, all the very best.
  • Falcon5555
    Falcon5555 11 September 2019 11: 52 New
    +6
    If he closed several HUNDREDs of military airdromes, this is in a land country, and left ... 3 a dozen, then he would have some several aircraft plants ... He would close it at once! Still past similar "successes": the pogrom of military schools, warrant officers and midshipmen, cropped units, divisions, and rear services. It is harder to find in which he did not “distinguish himself”.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 11 September 2019 13: 19 New
      -2
      Quote: Falcon5555
      If he closed several HUNDREDs of military airdromes, this is in a land country, and left ... 3 a dozen, then he would have some several aircraft plants ... He would close it at once!

      I apologize - but who was to base on these airfields?
      I remember the groans of aviators about the reform of the stool - oh, they are disbanding regiments with a glorious past. And then it turned out that out of three well-deserved regiments, it is difficult to recruit pilots and equipment for one new one. For all the papers and plans, a regiment was listed, but in fact - a squadron.
      In the Far East, during this reform, a squadron from the regiment on the MiG-31 had to be brought into the regiment on the Su-27 - because it was impossible to assemble the regiment on the MiG-31. Since then, the 22 giap has invariably tremble the staff and logistics personnel with its extraordinary fleet: MiG-31, MiG-31BM / BMS, Su-27СМ, Su-30М2, Su-30СМ, Su-35С.
      1. Falcon5555
        Falcon5555 11 September 2019 14: 35 New
        +2
        A land country needs many airfields, not necessarily so that someone is constantly based on them, but so that it can be relocated if necessary. And so that the enemy does not know where they are based. A regiment there or not a regiment is another matter. So that they can land on an emergency landing - in airplanes, especially in war, this happens. If for a simple reason, if there are 300 airfields, you need 300 nuclear ballistic missiles, if 30 - then 270 are freed up to destroy another 270 of cities or other objects. You do not know all this and it is not clear? Or do you mind just to argue. Or is your goal to protect this character?
        The only right thing, as I heard, he did is to stop fanatical preparations for the parades (which they have now returned, but in vain!).
        One more thing - they raised the salaries of officers - but it was not him, but Medvedev, and probably not because it would have to be done this way, but, apparently, frightened of the orange revolutions that had begun then.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 11 September 2019 15: 22 New
          +1
          Quote: Falcon5555
          A land country needs many airfields, not necessarily so that someone is constantly based on them, but so that it can be relocated if necessary.

          What is better to have: 25 combat-ready aerodromes that can take airplanes - or 100 somehow supported airfields that breathe frankly? Serdyukov had a choice: continue to smear the budget for thin layers of structures and facilities left over from the times of the USSR with its armed forces and budget - or concentrate on bringing at least the core of the RF Armed Forces into a combat-ready state.
          Despite the fact that the "smearing" strategy over 15 years led to squadron regiments, ghost divisions and the inability to assemble the 50 000 group without robbing all the country's military districts. Three hundred thousand officers per millionth army - but there is no one to fight.
          1. Falcon5555
            Falcon5555 11 September 2019 16: 05 New
            +2
            He had not this choice, but a much wider one, and he did almost everything he could, not only wrongly, but also absurdly. Probably, it was necessary to create (or recreate) the troops of constant readiness in case of regional wars (and not to turn the entire army into an army for the war with the Papuans and Barmels) and leave a limited number of trained and trained units for training draftees and as a reserve in case of a big war. Previously existing airfields, of course, should not just be thrown. No special costs are needed to simply prevent overgrowth and plunder, even if the airfield is not used. But there is no harm from the fact that there is a squadron instead of a regiment. So it was not necessary to assemble aviation at air bases. If all the squadrons are assembled in one place, with one take-off strip - something will fall on the strip, and that's it - everyone is sitting, smoking ...
            There was always someone to fight. It was necessary to have an appropriate organization, which was the responsibility of the Ministry of Defense, and not to ruin everything, throw it away, fire it and sell it off. Apparently, this is what he is doing now.
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 11 September 2019 19: 26 New
              +2
              Quote: Falcon5555
              Probably, it was necessary to create (or recreate) troops of constant readiness in case of regional wars

              He tried - brigades. But the state did not have money for contract soldiers. And at 90% the staffing of brigades is the same.
              Quote: Falcon5555
              and leave a limited number of cadre and training units for training draftees and as a reserve in case of a major war.

              What is the training of draftees in the cropped part? There l / s barely enough to maintain the combat readiness of existing equipment.
              But Serdyukov just left the training centers.
              Quote: Falcon5555
              Previously existing airfields, of course, should not just be thrown. No special costs are needed to simply prevent overgrowth and plunder, even if the airfield is not used.

              Um ... I do not want to offend anyone, but in the courtyard of the XXI century.
              For normal operation, the aerodrome should have lighting equipment, radar, equipment for hangars, fuel and energy resources, ammunition depot and fuel and lubricants. Plus a boiler room and heating with all its charms. Is that all - will it repair itself? There, only for hunting for color pickers the company of the guard is needed.
              Quote: Falcon5555
              But there is no harm from the fact that there is a squadron instead of a regiment.

              Three squadrons assembled in a regiment have more repair capabilities and are less expensive than three separate squadrons.
              I just want to remind you that the military budget under the furniture maker had to withstand the complete rearmament of the army, which has not been carried out since 1991. Replacement of the tank fleet alone was worth what - the army fought in the 2008 at best on the T-72A and B, and even on the T-62 (and T-55AM served in the Far East in tank battalions). The army received as many 63 tanks a year, and UVZ raised prices every year (for the last time - by 70%, after which the purchase of T-90 was temporarily stopped). And it was necessary to replace the 2500 tanks released back in the USSR.
              1. Falcon5555
                Falcon5555 11 September 2019 20: 37 New
                0
                All these are already technical issues - A, B, ... C, D, radar, brigades, draftees, and everything else. Regarding airfields, it’s important that there shouldn’t be such situations when the airfield is so abandoned that nearby summer residents take away concrete slabs from the runway. There probably should be different categories of content and protection. Somewhere it’s enough to post an announcement about the restricted area, somewhere you need a guard with a berdanka, somewhere video cameras (“Um ... I don’t want to offend anyone, but in the courtyard of the 21st century.”), Somewhere a company of coastal troops to prevent landing, somewhere “full stuffing” with radars and a willingness to refuel and repair, somewhere joint operation with civil aviation, somewhere to leave the same squadron so that the enemy does not destroy everyone at once. If there is no aviation, then there will be no tanks, "A" they or "B". Aerodromes could not be abandoned, and technical issues had to be resolved with common sense and in accordance with local conditions.
                1. Dante Alighieri
                  Dante Alighieri 11 September 2019 20: 50 New
                  -1
                  And it was necessary to replace the 2500 tanks released back in the USSR.

                  And who replaced them? What is the largest tank in the army? Right, T-72. When was it released? Can not be! IN THE USSR. And do not tell me now about its modernization. Alex TV, described in detail all the nuances of this under modernization. T-62, T-64 and T-55 were simply written off. Come to us in the Altai Territory in the village of Topchikha - we have mountains here. As for the T-90, so if you believe Vicki in the army (I think it’s very difficult to hide something in modern conditions) as of 2018 there were about 350 T-90 and T-90A units in combat units (and about 200 units of T-90 are in storage). So we can talk about the renewal of the park as a percentage very loudly, especially if before these parks they pretty much reduced it. Now even the mentioned 63 tanks from 0,1% are converted to 10-15% growth annually.
                  1. Alexey RA
                    Alexey RA 12 September 2019 10: 27 New
                    +2
                    Quote: Dante
                    And who replaced them? What is the largest tank in the army? Right, T-72. When was it released? Can not be! IN THE USSR. And do not tell me now about its modernization. Alex TV, described in detail all the nuances of this under modernization.

                    Now the main tank is the T-72Б3. On 2008 - T-72A or B, which served since the times of the USSR with virtually no overhaul.
                    At first, with the furniture maker, they tried to rearm the army with the new T-90. It did not work - UVZ began to systematically raise prices. In 2010, T-90 cost 70 million rubles, in 2011 - already 118 million rubles. Therefore, the task was set - to make a tank for 52 million rubles, which could be produced by 200 vehicles per year. The result was the T-72B3 of the first sample, which differed from the T-72 combatants not only in scope and thermal imager, but most importantly - during modernization, the tank underwent a major overhaul.
                    Quote: Dante
                    So we can talk about the renewal of the park as a percentage very loudly, especially if before these parks they pretty much reduced it.

                    Nobody cut him. Just earlier, everything that was in the documents, including the BHVT and paper divisions, was recorded in combat tanks. And as it came down to the matter - so it was necessary to collect battalions from all over the country.
                    It is real that then, that now in the Russian Federation there were about 2500 tanks of the combat and combat training park. Everything else is storage.
                    1. Falcon5555
                      Falcon5555 12 September 2019 10: 50 New
                      -1
                      Perhaps, what else can be mentioned as the achievements in which this subject took part is a reduction in the service life to a year. But the decree on this was adopted by Putin almost a year before his assumption of office, so that he was not the initiator, but only executed. Performed - for which thanks. They also talk about the humanization of the conditions of military service.
                      It would be necessary to shorten still. That it was equivalent to the school year. No need to get stuck there. He called up in the fall, leave at the end of spring - the beginning of summer, in order to have time to enter the university. Otherwise, you won’t do it anymore.
                    2. Dante Alighieri
                      Dante Alighieri 12 September 2019 12: 39 New
                      -2
                      You really do not find a contradiction in your words? First you talk about production, then later about overhaul. First you say there were no reductions, then you declare that there would be 2500 tanks both then and now, only then were the tanks old, and today new. To the question, where did the old ones go (all those mentioned T-55, T-64, T-72A)? Answer: sent to storage. And where did the new T-72BZ come from, if there is no such production of tanks of this type from scratch, but there is an upgrade, moreover, of a strictly defined series of the T-72 tank (namely, with the letter B and BM)? Answer: also storage + some percentage of T-90 (mainly T-90M, because T-90A is also in storage). At the time, begin to teach the tankoff cycle in nature in the course of natural sciences in elementary school.

                      But let's reason it reasonably, when a tank is sent for storage from combat units, this, in essence, also means a reduction in the fleet, the fleet of tank combat units, which should be compensated by new vehicles. Yes, it is hypothetically possible to return a tank from storage, but I think you do not need to explain that there are several categories of storage and if, from the first or two, with proper maintenance, the machine can be put on combat duty, then from 3 and the subsequent it is very problematic. And in fact, in essence, I do not dispute the fact that the cars have not disappeared, but they are standing in our steppe Kulunda and quietly rust. BUT! When Shoigu talks about a new technique that entered the army, he talks about combat units. And nobody: neither the deputies nor the public care about what is in stock. In addition, if before starting the “modernization” several hundred tanks are first sent for storage, the percentage of rejuvenated equipment will be higher at the same financial costs. Moreover, this is true not only for the ground army, but also for the navy. Notice that no one gives a classification of equipment during a speech by the high command, but simply says "there were 300 surface ships" and do not specify that among them the vast majority of boats and boats. So with the tanks. The percentage of new technology is such and such, but no one explains the percentage of what and how much compared to the “reference period”.

                      And yes, I do not agree that before 2008 we only had 2500 real tanks. Yes there were placements, yes, many cars would be in unsatisfactory condition, but there were many more of them. So much more that after getting rid of the "ballast" there were still 2500 units conditionally suitable for further operation, yes + the depots were replenished with a significant number of T-62 and T-64 tanks, which months ago they had completely beaten Georgians on Ossetian soil.
                      In general, a solid profit - and reporting to itself and treasury profits.
      2. Cotnik
        Cotnik 12 September 2019 00: 02 New
        0
        so the Taburetkin’s zem brought the situation to this ... So that sperdyukov simply continued what he had begun.
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 11 September 2019 13: 27 New
      +3
      Quote: Falcon5555
      Still past similar "successes": the pogrom of military schools, warrant officers and midshipmen, cropped units, divisions, and rear services.

      And did they have divisions with us? 08.08.08 19 msd (constant readiness) was able to alarm raise the reinforced battalion from the regiment - the division in fact cringed to the brigade. Moreover, in the platoons of the BTG of this division there were 22-25 people.
      In the Taman division, the commander in an interview with the central media complained that in his link from company and below 90% of commanders are “jackets” and wreeds, and personnel lieutenants leave for civilians immediately after schools.
      In fact, by the 2007 year, the personnel divisions of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation turned into cropped ones, and cropped ones into BHVT.
      1. strannik1985
        strannik1985 11 September 2019 13: 47 New
        +3
        So what does the staff have to do with it? To attract to the service, money allowance must be increased (which was done), create normal conditions of service, provide housing, etc. The OShS has nothing to do with this; they tried to justify the rejection of divisions by completely different reasons.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 11 September 2019 15: 15 New
          +2
          Quote: strannik1985
          So what does the staff have to do with it? To attract to the service, money allowance must be increased (which was done), create normal conditions of service, provide housing, etc.

          And despite the fact that based on the results of 080808, it was concluded that the ground forces needed mobile coordinated and easily controlled connections with a staffing of l / s that way 90 percent. The divisions were not suitable for this role, and their budget did not draw in the required quantity.
          In short, the next summer of 1941 and the transition from tank divisions to tank brigades.

          But this reform ended in failure because the original idea was distorted for the sake of economy. As a result, instead of fully-equipped permanent-readiness brigades, they received semi-contract-semi-conscription units, and even equipped at best with 3 / 4. In short, the same pre-reform division, only in profile.
          1. strannik1985
            strannik1985 11 September 2019 17: 54 New
            +1
            The brigades of the new look have not separate battalions, they are not formations. Officially stated that the Russian Federation is threatened only by conflicts of low intensity (this is after the 08.08.08 war) and therefore divisions are not needed, there are enough brigades. At the same time, the SVs were reduced so much that the army would not have pulled the formation of the UGV (s) and losses similar to the active phase of the Second Company.
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 11 September 2019 11: 52 New
    +3
    We have already written more than once that some plants are idle. The Voronezh VASO was cited as an example, but things are no better at other plants. Taganrog boasts three Be-200 last year

    Taganrog is not about the lack of orders. And the fact that the plant consistently broke two contracts on Be-200 - first with the Ministry of Emergencies (five years of delay), and then with the MO (after three years of delay, the contract was terminated, the money was recovered in court).
  • yehat
    yehat 11 September 2019 13: 00 New
    0
    Quote: xax
    This kind of “work on mistakes” can happen. Fun?

    I am not inclined to strictly negatively evaluate everything Serdyukov did.
    our general staff held the position "We need the most, and even yesterday." In such conditions, it was not clear how to maintain an army and its "optimization" was objectively claimed.
    And I would not be in a hurry to hang the excesses completely on Serdyukov - I’m sure that part of the “optimization” went simply because no one bothered to justify the need for one or the other.
    I saw this at meetings of the holding.
    the boss says
    - I need 5 million
    - Why?
    - I want a bakery.
    - Are there justification calculations, at least a purchase invoice?
    - Nothing, just give 5 million.
    And in a situation where everyone simultaneously yells "an aircraft carrier is needed", "20k tanks are needed", "PAK FA is needed", etc., the simplest thing is to cut everything and react when someone absolutely heartily bequeathed that they overstepped.
    I agree that a normal person would delve into all matters, but Taburetkin is only a manager.
  • tank64rus
    tank64rus 11 September 2019 13: 10 New
    +5
    To put not in a chair but on bunks.
  • akunin
    akunin 11 September 2019 15: 49 New
    +3
    So fly or fly?
    the answer is obvious - we’ll fly through. the industry will be saved by a person who should “sit”, and under the communists he would be shot (and more than once)
  • Shuttle
    Shuttle 11 September 2019 17: 46 New
    0
    Serdyukov - Putin's torpedo. He broke the army, or rather he took upon himself all the unpopular decisions. Kuzhegetich did not have to do them. He is now fluffy and white. And Serdyukov is like a toad. Yes, and with a toad.
    I feel that there will be something similar with the KLA. Although GDP rarely does the same trick twice.
  • nesoglasen
    nesoglasen 11 September 2019 19: 14 New
    +3
    Most likely we’ll fly by - Taburetkin knows his job.
  • g1v2
    g1v2 11 September 2019 20: 15 New
    +1
    Hooray, Tolik is back! Undermining farts and tantrums on the site are again provided. fellow
    Well, in fact, I hope that Taburetkin will cope with the KLA no worse than with the reform of the army. Moreover, he will not get used to universal hatred, which means he will not be careful. But a lot of tantrums and layoffs are expected. good
  • tegezen
    tegezen 11 September 2019 21: 16 New
    -1
    Serdyukov carried out reforms in the army, not Shoigu. Shoigu came at all ready, as in the Ministry of Emergencies he is a bloated character.
  • svit55
    svit55 11 September 2019 21: 30 New
    +2
    Kayuk VKS, infantry, all hope for you!
  • erofich
    erofich 11 September 2019 22: 03 New
    +3
    Relatives of those in power are already sick of it. When will they start thinking about the country? About people in this country, and not about their pockets?
    1. Cotnik
      Cotnik 11 September 2019 23: 51 New
      -1
      at hardly think about the country, it is not possible for cultural Petersburgers in the power of entrenched ones. Vaughn Fursenko has already hailed into the funds of another ministry.
  • Cotnik
    Cotnik 11 September 2019 23: 47 New
    0
    The activities of this cultural Petersburger in Min. The defense is already known .... The result in the UAC It will be that the fat-meat girl will have many boxes of jewelry. And 6.000 square meters of real estate in the Central Administrative District instead of the current 600. and much more other good.
  • ALEX_SHTURMAN
    ALEX_SHTURMAN 12 September 2019 13: 01 New
    +1
    Yes, our government’s self-preservation instinct is practically at zero ... Here you can talk to the people as much as you like through the media about propaganda, color revolutions, the bad rotten West .. But when people have power comrades like Serdyukov, Chubais, Gazprom dreams come true this power is doomed! It reminds me of a drunk father with a cigarette in his mouth trying to teach his son: Like, don't smoke your son and don't drink it badly!
  • Brigadier
    Brigadier 12 September 2019 13: 02 New
    0
    "...an epoch-making decision was made: to send Anatoly Serdyukov to save the industry. "

    The task of mathematics:

    Condition: Leo decided to make the mouse the head of the cheese warehouse
    Question: How much does the mouse eat cheese itself and how many will the lion roll back for its purpose?

    wassat lol laughing wink good
  • Ilya Melnov
    Ilya Melnov 12 September 2019 13: 42 New
    0
    if a person steals a bag of potatoes then they will close it for ten years, but if billions then it will also be raised to the beholder. Harboring ...
  • Karaul14
    Karaul14 12 September 2019 20: 51 New
    -1
    Putin is good, he just can’t cope with everything and doesn’t know that Serdyukov is embezzler, he just needs to be told about it! Well, how do you not understand? !!!

    In reality, there’s nothing of surprise, Putin, as it were, decided between various groups and clans, so that, so to speak, they could share everything and not quarrel among themselves, Serdyukov ended with exorbitant appetites, but, apparently, Serdyukov is a representative of one of the most influential clans, therefore I had to put it in some lucrative place.
  • Alexander Strannik
    Alexander Strannik 12 September 2019 21: 48 New
    +1
    ... everything is fine with us, but you can’t live like that anymore. ©
  • vka
    vka 12 September 2019 22: 33 New
    0
    I got out well .... it seems like I just do not aisles - white and furry !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • Ehanatone
    Ehanatone 15 September 2019 03: 51 New
    +1
    Nda pip.ts shots, just a rash takes:
    if this is called a specialist, then who are the rest - what are the same "experts" ....
    One has already shown its expertise, having fallen in love with a vegetable in 2017, it knows how many green lards, and becoming the best economist of the year, according to the fsh ...!.
    And now this one and aviation - still hiccup after the army ...
    not just the name, I didn’t even want to bring the current “specialist” ...
    Apparently, the degradation of the elite has passed into some, I hope, lethal phase ...