Military Review

The US believes that the Israeli F-35 will be better than the American

216
In the United States, the local edition of National Interest (NI) published an article in which it examined equipment that Israel intends to install on the next-generation F-35 stealth fighters in the coming years. The American edition is wondering if Israeli equipment and modifications will turn out to be better than American ones. Without comparing the systems in detail, National Interest, however, gives a general overview of what the F-35I will look like and emphasize that the F35I may turn out to be a better fighter than the one that is armed with the US Armed Forces due to the wide range of tasks facing Israeli Air Force and rapid response to new threats.




F-35 should become the fifth-generation mass fighter and the main fighter of both the United States and its allied countries. One such state is Israel, a constantly warring country with a large number of regional opponents and a wide range of tasks that the government of the Jewish state poses for the Air Force.

A feature of Israel is that this relatively small (8 million population) country has a developed aviation industry. In particular, Israel produces advanced avionics systems, wings for the F-15 and F-35, the LAVI fighter created in the Promised Land did not go into the series just because of the opposition of the Americans, who saw it as a threat to their interests.


Cockpit F-35


Israeli equipment on American aircraft


Israel always integrates its own systems into America's supply. This is due to several important points.

First, Israel actively supports its own industry, its level and export potential (up to 80% of local products are exported. Using local avionics, electronic warfare systems and others makes it possible to work them out in real combat conditions. In addition, Israel is ready to use more advanced and risk decisions than more conservative Americans.

The second reason is the specific needs of the local air fleet. The opponents of the Jewish state are both conventional armies and partisan and terrorist groups. Some of them are located at the borders of the state, and some are several thousand kilometers. And if the United States actively uses aircraft carriers and foreign bases in order to be able to strike virtually anywhere in the world, Israel does not have such an opportunity.

Factor three - dependence on the United States. Israel, as far as possible, is trying to overcome this dependence. The country perfectly remembers how the allied states suddenly froze supplies. In addition, Israel is well aware that supplies may be interrupted in the event of hostilities.

The ingenious ALIS automated system built by Lockheed Martin is efficient and cost-effective. However, its only drawback is that it was built for countries that missiles do not fall on.

- the representative of the country's air force explained to the position of his own state to the portal Defense News.

For Israel - special conditions


The Promised Land is well aware of how important the country is as a regional ally for Washington. That is why the Middle East state has knocked out special conditions: F-35 will not only receive local-made avionics, which in itself is an exceptional situation, but will also make full-fledged repairs and maintenance of these fighters on their own, and not in special logistics centers scattered by Lockheed Martin around the world. Nobody has received such preferences at the moment except the US Armed Forces.

To a large extent, such agreements were reached thanks to the long-standing mutually beneficial ties between Israel and Lockheed Martin. In particular, Elbit, an Israeli manufacturer of precision systems and electronic equipment, is developing the ultra-modern HMDS helmet for the F-35. The helmet, made individually for each pilot, gives the pilot the opportunity to see “through” the aircraft.

The first batch of F35 manufactured for the Israeli Air Force, in fact, do not differ from the American F35A. However, over the years, the number of equipment and weapons systems integrated into these aircraft will only grow.

In order for the installation of the systems to be successful, Israel requested - and received - a special plane, which went to the disposal of the IDF Air Force Test Flight Center. The machine is equipped with additional instrumentation. She also received an additional set of various sensors.



Israeli F-35 close


The first aircraft with integrated Israeli equipment will begin to arrive at Hel Havir (Israeli Air Force) in 2020. They will be installed integrated in the body and wings of electronic warfare systems jointly produced by Elbit Systems and IAI. It is expected that they will be able to compensate for the future appearance of radars that determine the position of stealth fighters. NI believes that radars capable of detecting stealth will be put into service in the next 15 years.

In addition, Israel, together with Lockheed, develops conformal fuel tanks, which should accommodate 600 gallons of fuel (about 2700 liters) each. Tanks of this type have a lesser effect on the change in the EPR of the aircraft; they do not occupy pylons for ammunition.

In addition, conventional suspended fuel tanks (PTBs) are also under development. They do not have a "stealth" configuration and will be reset before entering the task execution area. Their volume will be 425 gallons (1,608 liters), Elbit will be engaged in production.



Also, in a couple of years, an Israeli automated control system (C4 - command, control, communications and computers) will be installed on fighter jets.

Another interesting point is that Israel, like other countries, will not receive the Lightning software source codes. However, to integrate the software developed by the Israelis, Lockheed intends to transfer to the Jewish state special communication channels (API - Application Programming Interface) to the base software of the fighter.

The central F-35 system runs on an open architecture, the situation is very similar to installing the application on your iPhone. The shell does not change anything in the aircraft itself, but it gives the Israeli Air Force the opportunity to use the most advanced and adaptable developments with relative independence from the aircraft manufacturer.

said Benny Cohen, general manager of Lahav IAI, in an interview with Defense News.

From local armaments F-35I will receive python-5 short-range air-to-air missiles and SPICE 1000 electro-optical guided bombs with a range of 60 miles (100 km) from Rafael Advanced Systems: now it, together with Lockheed Martin working on their placement inside the aircraft body.



Israel will not purchase F-35B


In its National Interest article, Israel is likely to purchase some F-35B, short takeoff and vertical landing fighters, for use from damaged runways or small runways.

However, according to Israeli military analyst and historian Oleg Granovsky, this scenario is unlikely: the F-35B has a much smaller range than its counterparts, F-35A and F-35C. For quick repair of the strips, Israel has developed special technologies, thanks to which the runway can return to operation in the shortest possible time.

Granovsky doubts another idea, according to which Israel was going to develop a two-seater version of the fighter. According to the expert, this contradicts the basic idea of ​​F-35 - maximum automation and the active use of simulators.
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  1. bya965
    bya965 7 September 2019 06: 05 New
    -14
    with Lockheed
    too often, more precisely all the time.

    And I don’t envy Israel, after the outbreak of the global crisis, the United States will not be up to the allies, most likely they will not be there, it will be eaten by the Arabs. So, arm yourself, don’t arm, it won’t help.
    1. Vladimir16
      Vladimir16 7 September 2019 07: 25 New
      -7
      Israel is an aggressor country. A country that has occupied foreign lands. Little USA clone.
      And aviation actions like the Yankees. The guarantee of the existence of this country and its aviation is chaos among its neighbors. That allows you to fly and bomb with impunity. And for these purposes, the Doge PO-2 will do. For there is no opposition.
      Under these conditions, the F35 is just show off.
      Like a Ferrari in a village.
      1. Voronof
        Voronof 7 September 2019 10: 52 New
        +6
        Quote: Vladimir16
        Israel is an aggressor country. A country that has occupied foreign lands. Little USA clone.
        And aviation actions like the Yankees. The guarantee of the existence of this country and its aviation is chaos among its neighbors. That allows you to fly and bomb with impunity. And for these purposes, the Doge PO-2 will do. For there is no opposition.
        Under these conditions, the F35 is just show off.
        Like a Ferrari in a village.

        you directly mixed all the cliches in a heap, I already wept. Well, Che with the fact that the aggressor? As if it’s bad, it’s better to act on the lead and bomb the enemies right into the Stone Age, and not be a liberal as some living with double standards laughing
        1. Vladimir16
          Vladimir16 7 September 2019 11: 31 New
          -1
          Quote: Voronof
          . Well, Che with the fact that the aggressor? It's like it's bad ...

          What should I talk about with you after these words?
          Usually aggressors in Russia are destroyed.
          The aggressor brings death to the inhabitants of the country to which he came.
          I played enough in computer toys.
          Judging by the letter, you only read posts on the Internet, because books without pictures are boring to you.
          He was not in the army, there are no children, and you don’t remember relatives?
          Does anyone in your family remember the war?
          Where did you grow up, that you were not taught that war is bad, and that aggressors need to be destroyed?

          Are you from Israel?
          1. Voronof
            Voronof 7 September 2019 17: 12 New
            +2
            Quote: Vladimir16
            What should I talk about with you after these words?
            Usually aggressors in Russia are destroyed.
            The aggressor brings death to the inhabitants of the country to which he came.

            it’s still a question of who came there, the Jews didn’t leave, the history of learning the ignoramus first. Then you may not look so stupid demagogue.
            1. bya965
              bya965 8 September 2019 04: 28 New
              +1
              Can I ask a historian: Jerusalem is a Jewish city?
              PS. Berlin German?
            2. Sckepsis
              Sckepsis 11 September 2019 17: 33 New
              -2

              Then you may not look so stupid demagogue.

              If anyone is stupid here, then it's you. It is ridiculous to argue that the Jews are now the most ordinary killers. Hitler, too, reasoned, now the very first hollow itself was in full swing. Go and lie under his tail.
      2. gregor6549
        gregor6549 7 September 2019 11: 13 New
        +3
        You are not tired of repeating the old tales of the Soviet agitation prop. The whole history of the state of Israel since its inception is the constant struggle of Israel against the aggressors of neighbors who are sleeping and see how to wipe this state from the face of Zamli. And the USSR contributed a lot to this aggression. In particular, the 1967 war of the year is a direct consequence of the efforts of the USSR to set Arab countries against Israel and supplying these countries with the most up-to-date Soviet weapons. And when Israel defeated the armed forces of these countries, the USSR in a very short time restored their weapons lost in battle. And after 67, the USSR did not stop its efforts to destabilize the situation in the Middle East. If we are talking about the so-called territories occupied by Israel, then their occupation is a direct consequence of all previous aggressions against Israel. In war, both in war and military necessity sometimes makes it necessary to expand the territory of a state. After all, after the liberation of Europe from Nazism, the USSR did not then leave many of the territories liberated by it, or created regimes obedient to the USSR in these territories. It is true that later they were lost because of the "wise" policy of "peacekeepers" such as Gorbachev, Yeltsin and others like them. And the return of the Crimea by Russia, too, can be seen as a violation of the same treaty with Ukraine and the occupation of the territory of Ukraine. After all, Crimea was not presented to Khrushchev Ukraine as many "storytellers" now blow. After the war, no republic of the USSR wanted to take him under his guardianship. In the end, Ukraine was forced to take Crimea by a special decree signed by the then leaders of the USSR.
        1. ser56
          ser56 7 September 2019 16: 23 New
          +5
          Quote: gregor6549
          And the USSR contributed a lot to this aggression.

          like the USSR was among those who contributed to the creation of this state, but Britain was actively interfering bully
          Quote: gregor6549
          In particular, the war of 1967 is a direct consequence of the efforts of the USSR to set Arab countries on Israel

          one might think that the Arabs themselves had no reason - "The Israeli authorities refused to let the refugees back to their places of residence after the war, and the lands and real estate of the refugees were confiscated by the state of Israel."
          Quote: gregor6549
          and occupation of Ukraine

          referendum held in territories occupied by Israel? Maybe you don’t have to draw analogies by the ears? hi
          Quote: gregor6549
          After the war, no republic of the USSR wanted to take him under his guardianship.

          what nonsense? it was part of the RSFSR ...
          Quote: gregor6549
          In the end, Ukraine was forced to take the Crimea

          by 56, everything was restored ... learn history not only by your Wishlist ... bully
          1. Shahno
            Shahno 7 September 2019 16: 29 New
            +4
            // referendum held in territories occupied by Israel? Maybe you don’t have to draw analogies by the ears //
            Are you serious? What a referendum. Arabs stuck to the Israeli budget, you can’t tear it off. But their medieval prejudices do not allow them to understand what a referendum is. laughing
            PS. They include a fool here constantly hiding behind Islamic views.
            1. ser56
              ser56 7 September 2019 16: 41 New
              +6
              Quote: Shahno
              Arabs stuck to the Israeli budget, n

              These are your problems, but in the Crimea most Russians ... bully
          2. bya965
            bya965 7 September 2019 16: 39 New
            -2
            This is "sy in the bad sense of the word."
            If you want to deploy the Jews, I will.
          3. gregor6549
            gregor6549 10 September 2019 13: 57 New
            +3
            Judging by your comments, you need to learn history.
            In particular, about the fact that "the USSR contributed to the creation of the state of Israel, and Great Britain actively interfered"
            Yes, the UK not only interfered, but also created all the conditions for an endless conflict between Israel and its neighbors.
            But the USSR really contributed to the creation of the state of Israel, hoping that Israel would become a conductor of Soviet policy in the Middle East because quite a large part of Russian Jews emigrated to the Middle East at one time and even actively supported the Communist Party of Israel. But Israel made a completely different decision. Israel could not forgive this USSR, and did everything so that Israel ceased to exist as soon as possible. True, I tried to do it with the wrong hands.
            The most interesting thing is that in the implementation of these efforts, the USSR again became an involuntary ally of already defeated Nazi Germany. The fact is that even during the life of the possessed Führer, the “Great Mufti of Jerusalem” visited him, who personally promised Hitler to “finally solve the Jewish question” in Palestine, and Hitler promised to support the Mufti in his “noble” efforts in every possible way. And it was after the return of ent mufti to their native land that the Palestinians began to organize “intimidation actions” in the style of SS Sonderkommando. But the Israelis created their fighting units (in my opinion of Hagan) and it started: "A tooth for a tooth and an eye for an eye."
            Well, after the formation of the state of Israel, the whole Arab world then rebelled against it, which began almost immediately after the proclamation of the state of Israel, a war against this state. Since then, these wars have not stopped, including thanks to the "peace-loving" policy of the USSR. Without the USSR, there would have been no 1067 war of the year, nor a 1973 war. And in smaller wars, the USSR invariably helped the opponents of Israel, while simultaneously branding the "Zionist aggressors" from all international stands.
            I was born in the middle of the 30x and I remember very well what the Soviet policy was towards Israel and Soviet Jews, too. Many now don’t know that the famous Doctors' Case comrade Stalin and Co. planned to complete the public execution of Jewish doctors in Krasnaya Ploshadi, followed by the deportation of all other Jews and their families to places not so remote. Moreover, the deportation was expected to be served under the noble sauce of "saving the Jews from the just anger of the Russian people." Most likely he signed a death sentence for himself, because Stalin's comrades-in-arms realized that they would be next. In particular, Stalin was already in full swing promoting the Mingrel case against Beria. So the story is this. Muddy
      3. morgan_67
        morgan_67 7 September 2019 18: 05 New
        +10
        "Israel is an aggressor country. A country occupying foreign lands. A small clone of the USA" - the creation of the state of Israel is a UN decision with the support of the USSR and the USA, adopted on November 29, 1947. On May 14, 1948, one day before the end of the British mandate on Palestine, David Ben-Gurion proclaimed the creation of an independent Jewish state in the territory designated according to the UN plan and the next day the League of Arab States declared war on Israel.
        Learn history and watch less TV is harmful.
        1. 3danimal
          3danimal 9 September 2019 20: 15 New
          0
          Alas, it’s easier to watch TV with Kissel / Nightingale-TV ((
      4. energoteknolog
        energoteknolog 8 September 2019 13: 15 New
        +1
        Victim of EGE? In what year did Israel act as an aggressor? Yes, he attacked him, he betrayed it with high quality, to this day they are wiped with snot.
      5. 3danimal
        3danimal 9 September 2019 20: 14 New
        +1
        The country created by the UN decision, if that. As a result of the division (and the granting of independence) of the British colonies in the Middle East.
        It is better to communicate with Israel than with Islamists, IMHO. By the way, children do complex operations with them, not in Iran and others.
        What about the air defense of Iran and (to a lesser extent) Syria? Do you get a lot to do with PO-2?
      6. zenion
        zenion 13 September 2019 22: 43 New
        0
        Do not be so about Israel. This is a country of unwritten possibilities. For Americans, this plane flies forward and to the right to the left. And in Israel, he will fly from right to left side to left to left back to left and anywhere left to back. No one will be able to bring down such an aircraft, because the rocket will not know such pilots, tapa cabriber - back to back.
    2. Kenxnumx
      Kenxnumx 7 September 2019 11: 51 New
      +4
      Envy is bad. Arabs choked many times when there was no US support, and the USSR supported the Arabs with both technology and advisers.
      1. MMX
        MMX 7 September 2019 17: 50 New
        -2
        Quote: Ken71
        Envy is bad. Arabs choked many times when there was no US support, and the USSR supported the Arabs with both technology and advisers.

        The United States has always supported Israel.
        1. Kenxnumx
          Kenxnumx 7 September 2019 18: 47 New
          +6
          Teach history so that it does not teach you. Israel became a truly important strategic ally of the United States with all the consequences only after the 6-day war. Before that, the relationship was warm to overtly hostile during the Sinai Campaign.
          1. MMX
            MMX 8 September 2019 10: 46 New
            -3
            Quote: Ken71
            Teach history so that it does not teach you. Israel became a truly important strategic ally of the United States with all the consequences only after the 6-day war. Before that, the relationship was warm to overtly hostile during the Sinai Campaign.


            What pathos. Stupidity - it is often (almost always) militant and pathos. This is me about you.
            1. Kenxnumx
              Kenxnumx 8 September 2019 12: 11 New
              +3
              Don't know it from you. Better write at least something reasonable with examples so that you can be considered not a bot. For example, explain how to understand the US actions towards Israel during the Sinai Campaign, in the light of your claim that the US ALWAYS supported Israel.
              1. MMX
                MMX 8 September 2019 20: 04 New
                -2
                Quote: Ken71
                Don't know it from you. Better write at least something reasonable with examples so that you can be considered not a bot. For example, explain how to understand the US actions towards Israel during the Sinai Campaign, in the light of your claim that the US ALWAYS supported Israel.


                Oh, how, yes, here we have an intellectual giant appeared. Well, tell me, titan, thoughts about how the USA acted (or counteracted) against Israel during the Sinai Company?
          2. zenion
            zenion 13 September 2019 22: 46 New
            0
            Americans call Israel unsinkable avinosets he means beating an abortion. But, as one Israeli special on this matter said, three bombs are enough to prevent the country from dying. They sued him, and then retreated from him. The papers were overseas.
        2. shahor
          shahor 7 September 2019 19: 30 New
          +3
          Sorry, but you, not knowing the history of the Middle East in general and the history of Israeli-American relations in particular with aplomb, are carrying ... a blizzard!
          Quote: MMX
          The United States has always supported Israel.
          1. MMX
            MMX 8 September 2019 10: 47 New
            -2
            Quote: shahor
            Sorry, but you, not knowing the history of the Middle East in general and the history of Israeli-American relations in particular with aplomb, are carrying ... a blizzard!
            Quote: MMX
            The United States has always supported Israel.

            There is nothing special to comment on - see above.
        3. Alexey Ilyin
          Alexey Ilyin 8 September 2019 05: 30 New
          +6
          You do not own the topic. In 1948 and 1956, the United States did not support Israel and in 1956 forced Israel to withdraw from the Sinai Peninsula it had captured. In 1956, Karl did not in 1967. And in 1967, the USA supported Israel because it delivered a preemptive strike on the eve of the Arab attack, which is legitimate self-defense under the UN Charter. Egyptian President Gamal Nasser did everything to provoke a war, and the USSR also helped him in this by providing false information about the alleged concentration of Israeli troops on the Syrian border, which was not mentioned at all. The good that the USSR did for Israel in 1947–48 was crossed out in the following years with more than the Kremlin’s evil and unjust anti-Israeli policies.
          1. MMX
            MMX 8 September 2019 10: 48 New
            0
            Quote: Alexey Ilyin
            You do not own the topic. In 1948 and 1956, the United States did not support Israel and in 1956 forced Israel to withdraw from the Sinai Peninsula it had captured. In 1956, Karl did not in 1967. And in 1967, the USA supported Israel because it delivered a preemptive strike on the eve of the Arab attack, which is legitimate self-defense under the UN Charter. Egyptian President Gamal Nasser did everything to provoke a war, and the USSR also helped him in this by providing false information about the alleged concentration of Israeli troops on the Syrian border, which was not mentioned at all. The good that the USSR did for Israel in 1947–48 was crossed out in the following years with more than the Kremlin’s evil and unjust anti-Israeli policies.


            So the United States did not support the creation of the state of Israel in 1948. So let's write it down.
    3. Jack O'Neill
      Jack O'Neill 7 September 2019 12: 15 New
      +6
      And I don’t envy Israel, after the outbreak of the global crisis, the United States will not be up to the allies, most likely they will not be there, it will be eaten by the Arabs. So, arm yourself, don’t arm, it won’t help.

      Arabs gathered already, for them it ended badly.
      1. bya965
        bya965 7 September 2019 16: 49 New
        -1
        What did you finish, how many economic models exist?
        And provide help that is not.
      2. valeryb
        valeryb 13 September 2019 18: 00 New
        0
        Quote: Jack O'Neill
        Arabs gathered already, for them it ended badly.
        And repeatedly.
    4. morgan_67
      morgan_67 7 September 2019 17: 56 New
      +8
      “Arabs will devour it” - this is from the series “Ukraine will definitely freeze this year”. Israel has been at war since 1948 and has not yet been devoured.
      1. bya965
        bya965 13 September 2019 08: 27 New
        0
        The state is 70 years old with a penny. This is by historical standards nothing.
        Russia wow.
        And so they’ll eat, do not hesitate.
    5. energoteknolog
      energoteknolog 8 September 2019 13: 10 New
      0
      after the start of the global crisis, think better where you will be.
  2. Professor
    Professor 7 September 2019 06: 39 New
    +11
    Another interesting point is that Israel, like other countries, will not receive the Lightning software source codes.

    "will not receive," but "already received." This was a key condition for the delivery of the aircraft. Without full access to the source code, complex systems cannot be integrated.
    1. Alien From
      Alien From 8 September 2019 17: 36 New
      0
      Somewhere I heard that a helmet for f35 almost costs $ 700000, what did they cram ????
      1. Professor
        Professor 9 September 2019 08: 22 New
        +1
        From $ 300k to $ 400k.
        https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/10/26/f-35-helmet-costs-400000-4-times-predecessor/74650574/

        1. Alien From
          Alien From 9 September 2019 09: 03 New
          0
          Thank you, I will study!
  3. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 7 September 2019 06: 42 New
    +2
    Israel has to keep its “neighbors” at the expense of technological advantage. And their weapons are excellent. The whole nation is trained and mobilized. Only this does not save Israel. And the lack of unity and determination of his enemies. It seems to me that if ISIS were victorious in Syria and went to the borders with Israel, no 5th generation fighter would have saved. The determination and determination of these freaks can not be denied. Using suicide bombers in mined armored cars, they broke through defensive orders ... And they climbed, regardless of the losses.
    1. bya965
      bya965 7 September 2019 07: 50 New
      -2
      I do not believe. Israel actively supported ISIS in deed, not in words.
    2. Kenxnumx
      Kenxnumx 7 September 2019 11: 54 New
      +3
      If ISIS managed to defeat three dozen of our aircraft (as reported). That Israel with their professional army and aviation - even more so. Arabs will not be helped neither by their single-mindedness or unity - because they are Arabs, and it is impossible to talk about the unity of Arabs.
      1. Karabas
        Karabas 7 September 2019 16: 25 New
        +6
        If ISIS managed to defeat three dozen of our aircraft (as reported). That Israel with their professional army and aviation - even more so. Arabs will not be helped neither by their single-mindedness or unity - because they are Arabs, and it is impossible to talk about the unity of Arabs.

        Arabs created chemistry, algebra and astronomy. It’s not necessary to consider everyone as idiots, otherwise Ukromaydan peeks around the corner wink
        1. Kenxnumx
          Kenxnumx 7 September 2019 18: 52 New
          +1
          Everyone is not needed. They say and now there are smart, washed and cultured Arabs. But I have not seen those. And those with whom he studied were frankly stupid. As for who invented something, they went to the campaign and remained at the same level of knowledge as at the time of the invention. By the way, the ideal comparison ground is old Jerusalem. Armenian, Jewish, Arab and Christian parts of the city. I just recommend it, a lot of things will become clear to you too.
          1. Karabas
            Karabas 7 September 2019 19: 17 New
            0
            Everyone is not needed. They say and now there are smart, washed and cultured Arabs. But I have not seen those. And those with whom he studied were frankly stupid. As for who invented something, they went to the campaign and remained at the same level of knowledge as at the time of the invention. By the way, the ideal comparison ground is old Jerusalem. Armenian, Jewish, Arab and Christian parts of the city. I just recommend it, a lot of things will become clear to you too.

            So they would build schools, universities, give them a good education, you look and jihad mobiles would disappear. Moreover, it is much cheaper than rebuilding constantly after the destruction, I’m not talking about the casualties.
            1. Kenxnumx
              Kenxnumx 7 September 2019 19: 36 New
              +5
              And you probably thought you didn’t build. Leftists in Israel are still rushing with the idea of ​​cultivating them and living together harmoniously. Yes, it doesn’t work out somehow. Arabs who blew themselves up with shahid belts were mostly quite cultural, and some were Israeli Arabs. You look at the budget of the Palestinian Autonomy - it is several times more than in our regions. Plus different programs. And not horse feed. When Israel left Gaza, he left the Arabs completely whole settlements and profitable farms - take it. What do they think did? Yes, they destroyed everything. It’s easier for them to get money from Qatar with Iran for shelling Israel. These people are not able to work, it is impossible to agree with them. They understand only power.
              1. Karabas
                Karabas 7 September 2019 19: 53 New
                0
                And you probably thought you didn’t build. Leftists in Israel are still rushing with the idea of ​​cultivating them and living together harmoniously. Yes, it doesn’t work out somehow. Arabs who blew themselves up with shahid belts were mostly quite cultural, and some were Israeli Arabs. You look at the budget of the Palestinian Autonomy - it is several times more than in our regions. Plus different programs. And not horse feed. When Israel left Gaza, he left the Arabs completely whole settlements and profitable farms - take it. What do they think did? Yes, they destroyed everything. It’s easier for them to get money from Qatar with Iran for shelling Israel. These people are not able to work, it is impossible to agree with them. They understand only power.

                When the USSR was formed, they took a much worse part. Some Basmachi were worth what, your Arabs are simply intelligentsia compared to those. However, they cultivated, calmed down, even the great ones appeared in terms of science, culture. I can advise you first to find the most divorced, invite to the studio for transmission, discuss what they want. Where it is necessary to start anyway, or it will continue forever.
                1. Kenxnumx
                  Kenxnumx 7 September 2019 20: 04 New
                  +4
                  Everything that you come up with has been done many times. And even with the most divorced. Like Yasser Arafat. Even with this thug hugged. Not fused. Only with a fist works forehead and then, due to natural stupidity, for a short time.
                  1. Karabas
                    Karabas 7 September 2019 20: 11 New
                    +1
                    Everything that you come up with has been done many times. And even with the most divorced. Like Yasser Arafat. Even with this thug hugged. Not fused. Only with a fist works forehead and then, due to natural stupidity, for a short time.

                    There is a proposal to exchange our kaklov for your Arabs. laughing
                    1. Kenxnumx
                      Kenxnumx 8 September 2019 12: 14 New
                      0
                      When a Ukrainian was born, a Jew cried.
            2. Vitaly gusin
              Vitaly gusin 7 September 2019 21: 55 New
              +2
              Quote: Karabas
              So they would build schools, universities, give them a good education,

              Pakistani-born Faisal Shahzad tried to detonate a bomb hidden inside a car near Times Square in New York. The attempt was unsuccessful, and Shahzad himself was caught a few days later.
              Shahzad had MBA degree, and before joining the Taliban, he worked for several years as a financial analyst.
              Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab tried to blow up the Airbus A330 plane of the American airline Delta Airlines. He was a member of Al Qaeda and the son of the former chairman of the board of directors of First Bank, one of Nigeria's largest banks. ABOUTHe qualified as a mechanical engineer at University College London and, in addition, studied finance.
              September 11, 2001, were also educated and wealthy people.
              One of the suicide bombers was Mohammed Atta, an Egyptian - an engineer-architect who was educated first at the University of Cairo and then at the Technical University of Hamburg. In Germany, he studied the architecture of the Middle East and the influence of modern trends on it.
              The leader of this group is Marwan al-Shekhhi, who studied in University of Bonn and then Hamburg. Ziyad-Sammir Jarrah also studied aircraft engineering at the Technical University of Hamburg. Yes, and the leader of al-Qaeda, Osama bin Laden Graduated from King Abdulaziz University in Saudi Arabia.
              You have a very superficial look, and everything is much more complicated and deeper.
              Today, the third world war is already under way for the conquest of Islamic world fundamentalists.
              And you can see these examples everywhere in all countries.
              1. Karabas
                Karabas 7 September 2019 22: 51 New
                +2
                You have a very superficial look, and everything is much more complicated and deeper.

                Yes it is. Not special on fundamentalists. I can not imagine why techies do this, especially with a degree. Motivation should be extremely tough.
                1. Vitaly gusin
                  Vitaly gusin 7 September 2019 23: 03 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Karabas
                  . I can not imagine why techies do this, especially with a degree. Motivation should be extremely tough.

                  Yes she exists
                  Today, the third world war is already under way for the conquest by Islamic fundamentalists of the whole world.
      2. bya965
        bya965 7 September 2019 16: 41 New
        0
        You, or a believer, decide, please?
    3. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 7 September 2019 12: 33 New
      +6
      ISIS stayed at Sinai. Israel is fighting with him in conjunction with the Egyptian army.
      Their tactics are known.
    4. Alexey Ilyin
      Alexey Ilyin 8 September 2019 05: 39 New
      0
      There is no reception against scrap, besides another scrap. ISIS has no other scrap, that is, modern weapons. At one time, the waves of the attacking infantry became helpless in front of the hurricane machine-gun fire and artillery fire shaft.
    5. 3danimal
      3danimal 9 September 2019 20: 25 New
      0
      By determination and determination you obviously mean the cheapness of cannon fodder: there are many people, a very low standard of living and, often, go to fight for the same ISIS for them - a way to feed themselves. But there is no air defense there, which means that the use of the AS-130 will be quite enough to “grind” the terrorists. People tend to end, and modern weapons can destroy targets faster than their reproduction.
      F-35 is for Iran and Syria (its remnants).
  4. Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 7 September 2019 07: 02 New
    +8
    The situation is gradually changing ... and will change .... and not in favor of Israel. Yes .... fortunately for the Israelis and not to the “benefit” of the Arabs, it is changing too slowly for Israel to feel it “now” ... and yet (!): Israel is no longer what it was, for example, in the 60-s ... As they say, “at first glance it’s imperceptible,” but comparing some “circumstances”, then and now, you can notice some changes ... A number of interstate, concession, and economic circumstances among Arabs “allow “and in the foreseeable future they will allow Israel to stay afloat and even“ blossom and smell. ”But I’m sure that it’s endless this will not continue. Sooner or, to the displeasure of the Arabs, it’s too late, but the situation can really change to the status when the Arabs feel that they are able to stick the F-35I to the Israelis in ..... "ground!" If someone thinks that I rejoice in "anticipation of this" ... is mistaken! And that's why! ....: Regardless of whether objectively or biased, many of us have a negative attitude towards Israel, this state, whether voluntarily or involuntarily, is a counterbalance Arab expansion in the world, its deterrent ... and, as a result, the Islamic world exp these! If the Arabs succeed in “crushing” Israel, will the “civilized world”, the “smut”, be cleaner than what is currently available ... an “Arab empire” with a leading ideology - Islamic radicalism? Then Russia will not be left out "...
    1. Maki Avellevich
      Maki Avellevich 7 September 2019 07: 49 New
      0
      Quote: Nikolaevich I
      But I am sure that this will not continue indefinitely.

      you just discover america!
      and everyone thought that all this was forever.

      so now, paws up?
      1. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 7 September 2019 08: 00 New
        +2
        Quote: Maki Avellevich
        you just discover america!
        and everyone thought that all this was forever.

        Well, I can’t explain to everyone about America request but you found out! wink
      2. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 7 September 2019 08: 05 New
        0
        Quote: Maki Avellevich
        so now, paws up?

        Well, as you want ... (or, you do not want ...)! In this case, my "predictions" will come true much earlier than I thought ... winked
    2. bya965
      bya965 7 September 2019 07: 55 New
      -7
      And you can look at it from a different angle. Israel forces the Arab world to unite. It’s not good for them, what will happen when this unifying motive disappears.
      1. Maki Avellevich
        Maki Avellevich 7 September 2019 08: 13 New
        +1
        Quote: bya965
        And you can look at it from a different angle. Israel forces the Arab world to unite. It’s not good for them, what will happen when this unifying motive disappears.

        at least two sides have this medal.

        external active opponent of the Jewish state in my opinion is a huge advantage and not vice versa, as many believe.

        the threat unites and focuses the energy of the people and is a powerful motivator for the development of economy and technology.
        when comparatively calm years are issued in Israel, all the social tensions that doze off during wars and turbulent times immediately surface.
        (The Jewish population of Israel has very low homogeneity since it consists of representatives of many diasporas who have returned to their homeland.)
        Thanks to the Arabs for their contribution to strengthening the Jewish state.
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. Maki Avellevich
            Maki Avellevich 7 September 2019 18: 32 New
            +3
            Quote: bya965
            And honestly, for me Russian, I do not see a difference between you and the Arabs. Behave the same, traitor to traitor

            Your statements do not carry a payload.
            And yes, you do not know Russian well.
      2. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 7 September 2019 08: 20 New
        +3
        Quote: bya965
        Israel forces the Arab world to unite. .

        Probably "forces" ... "forces" from the 50-60 of the last century ... Well, what is the result ... for now?
        Quote: bya965
        what will happen when this unifying motive disappears.

        Another motive will appear ... the motive of "Great Jordan", "Great Syria", "Great Iraq", "Great Iran", "Great Egypt", "global OAR (or, OAI ...)" Someone "will try" unite "first" the Arab world "; and in the" distant future "dominate the" world "...
        1. bya965
          bya965 7 September 2019 16: 45 New
          -7
          But who needs you to hell if the United States does not.
          Another believer in God's chosen people.
          You turn on the brains and most importantly do not steam them, i.e. Do not overheat.
          And most importantly, pull the toilet handle last, you're the head of the family.
    3. Cartalon
      Cartalon 7 September 2019 08: 44 New
      +6
      The situation for Israel is only improving, it used to be surrounded by Soviet Arab regimes in which at least in theory some technical, economic and social progress could take place, now secular regimes are breathing in the cold and sooner or later they will be overthrown by fanatics who are nothing but a babahmobile They cannot oppose Israel, so Israel can not only survive, but also resume expansion.
      1. mark2
        mark2 7 September 2019 09: 23 New
        +1
        A fanatic and a foolish person are not the same thing. He may not adhere to human rights, but obey the command of Allah, but this will not affect the ability to use weapons. And then the fanatics are those who are in women’s mobiles and ride. other, very, very educated people who manage to find a way to get more fucked-up than the broads-mobile
      2. Karabas
        Karabas 7 September 2019 16: 21 New
        0
        overthrown fanatics who will not be able to oppose Israel to anything but a babahmobile

        Oh no. Chemical weapons, genetic engineering have long gone into the masses ... There are not very sharp brains there.
        1. haron
          haron 8 September 2019 17: 00 New
          0
          Quote: Karabas
          Oh no. Chemical weapons, genetic engineering have long gone into the masses ... There are not very sharp brains there.

          She left, she left, but she left such ears, that anyone who wants to do something more fun than saltpeter with pepper can be seen at the stage of reflection why he needs all this. Yes, he even makes a couple of dozen kilos ... what? What's next?
          About genetic engineering, in what form can it destroy Israel? Does the virus blind, in order to slow down and flatter only the owners of specific genes, or a specific passport?
          Do you really think that the "sharp brains" didn’t try anything and didn’t try anything. There, even a solid Iran, with a not-so-dumb population, even a peaceful atom is not mastering very quickly. And the brains there need less than in genetics.
          PS. By the way, the information that has gone into the masses on genetics is not very superficial, it is still not structured. If not glue, only Drosophila will come out.
          1. Karabas
            Karabas 8 September 2019 18: 02 New
            0
            She left, she left, but she left such ears, that anyone who wants to do something more fun than saltpeter with pepper can be seen at the stage of reflection why he needs all this. Yes, he even makes a couple of dozen kilos ... what? What's next?
            About genetic engineering, in what form can it destroy Israel? Does the virus blind, in order to slow down and flatter only the owners of specific genes, or a specific passport?
            Do you really think that the "sharp brains" didn’t try anything and didn’t try anything. There, even a solid Iran, with a not-so-dumb population, even a peaceful atom is not mastering very quickly. And the brains there need less than in genetics.
            PS. By the way, the information that has gone into the masses on genetics is not very superficial, it is still not structured. If not glue, only Drosophila will come out.

            You are not competent in these areas at all.
            1. haron
              haron 8 September 2019 19: 19 New
              0
              Quote: Karabas
              You are not competent in these areas at all.

              Naturally. I can’t create what you wrote about, and I can’t even write all the signs of competence into the framework of the post. And if I tried, it will only emphasize my non-competence)))
              Maybe you will try to prove your competence? Well, at least partially, about what genetics and chemistry of OM have in common. You are welcome!
              1. Karabas
                Karabas 8 September 2019 19: 35 New
                0
                Maybe you will try to prove your competence? Well, at least partially, about what genetics and chemistry of OM have in common. You are welcome!

                Isn’t from the igles by chance? And then you have some unhealthy interests ...
                1. haron
                  haron 8 September 2019 20: 53 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Karabas
                  Isn’t from the igles by chance? And then you have some unhealthy interests ..

                  I would say the opposite. It’s not mine’s interests, but yours, if you say that pathogenetics and toxicochemistry are easily accessible to babaykas.
                  And for that matter, having access to these topics, and communicating with me on a publicly available resource, you can easily find out who I am.
                  I will simplify the task. I am just a simple doctor. Well, there are some certifications in forensic medicine and medical practice. I do not have scientific ranks, because there is no time to bring science to a logical end and at the same time engage in practical work. Practice she is, just have time to pull the burning logs.))
                  Good luck!
                  ps. You forgot to write that ISIS is prohibited in the Russian Federation.
                  1. Karabas
                    Karabas 8 September 2019 21: 11 New
                    0
                    I would say the opposite. It’s not mine’s interests, but yours, if you say that pathogenetics and toxicochemistry are easily accessible to babaykas.
                    And for that matter, having access to these topics, and communicating with me on a publicly available resource, you can easily find out who I am.
                    I will simplify the task. I am just a simple doctor. Well, there are some certifications in forensic medicine and medical practice. I do not have scientific ranks, because there is no time to bring science to a logical end and at the same time engage in practical work. Practice she is, just have time to pull the burning logs.))
                    Good luck!
                    ps. You forgot to write that ISIS is prohibited in the Russian Federation.

                    Pathogenetics and toxochemistry, and there is also geography, natural science and many many other sciences. That's just not the topic you have again.
                    And for that matter, having access to these topics, and communicating with me on a publicly available resource, you can easily find out who I am.

                    What scientific works are there? I would read, maybe the Great is lost here, but the men don’t know! laughing
                    I do not have scientific titles, because there is no time to bring science to a logical end

                    But no, again by! laughing
                    You forgot to write that ISIS is prohibited in the Russian Federation

                    So I didn’t write articles on this subject, and especially did not propagandize bandits. But I will add if so ask: Isis is banned in Russia!
                    1. haron
                      haron 8 September 2019 21: 31 New
                      0
                      Quote: haron
                      I have no scientific ranks

                      Quote: Karabas
                      What scientific works are there? I would read, maybe the Great is lost here, but the men don’t know!

                      You write the answer without reading the post of the interlocutor to the end.
                      The second option is a problem with logical thinking.
                      There is no third. For.
                      Quote: Karabas
                      But no, again by!

                      Quote: Karabas
                      So I didn’t write articles on this subject, and especially did not propagandize bandits.

                      Quote: Karabas
                      Oh no. Chemical weapons, genetic engineering have long gone into the masses ... There are not very sharp brains there.

                      You see, they were propagandizing, even as they were propagandizing; or incited. But the court is the same. (read at leisure, entertaining reading, especially in the comments of 2018).
                      Goodbye techie.
                      1. Karabas
                        Karabas 8 September 2019 22: 14 New
                        0
                        You see, they were propagandizing, even as they were propagandizing; or incited. But the court is the same. (read at leisure, entertaining reading, especially in the comments of 2018).
                        Goodbye techie.

                        It seems to you that you have propagandized, you can think anything, anytime and as much as you like. But your opinion is not an argument for the court, if objectively. If so, then if you want, you can drag anything by the ears, our justice has a lot of experience, but there is a difference between the court and the judge, you can never get away from this, like from Newton’s first law.
                        Based on your logic, you need to plant the administration of this resource a million times, because that it’s not an article, it’s the propaganda of violence, but through one terrorist.
                        So yes, goodbye "academician" hi
    4. mark2
      mark2 7 September 2019 09: 18 New
      +3
      this state, voluntarily or involuntarily, is the counterweight to Arab expansion in the world

      Is this a continuation of the myth of God's chosen people or exclusivity? A very poor counterweight is obtained. Arabs seep anyway. and in large numbers. Rather, this is not a counterweight, and the first screen is also bad by the way. While the Jews think they are upholding their right to exist, the civilized world rejoices that it is not they who have to deal with the containment of "Expansion"

      whether the "civilized world" ,, smut "will get cleaner than what is available at present.

      Well, they did it themselves. Probably the enemies of Europe came up with multiculturalism?)) And they are now sitting in government circles. No one even speaks a word against everything that happens. Either it is necessary, or someone is forbidden. Or is it a plan to destroy Israel? Let us say to the Jews that they are a barrier, they themselves think that they are fighting for the right, and the true masters of the World know what is what!

      many of us are negative about Israel

      and not only from us, but also from them and from others. No people will like that someone arrogates to himself the exclusive right to God.
    5. Kenxnumx
      Kenxnumx 7 September 2019 12: 04 New
      +3
      I hope Russia will understand the madness of its policy in the BV and will support Israel. Arabs are people completely alien to us
      1. Ryaruav
        Ryaruav 7 September 2019 16: 25 New
        +1
        ken, here you don’t understand the subtleties of politics, we need to balance both with the states and the like, but Israel agrees with our interest closer, but it’s not our friend, so we need to maneuver
        1. Kenxnumx
          Kenxnumx 7 September 2019 18: 57 New
          +6
          And why Israel is not our friend. Israel successfully fought off us for many years, but did not harbor evil. He is close to us both in culture and mentality and in the population .... Yes, they have a third of the leadership of our former. And what about the Arabs? They betrayed and sold us many times. We are now rejoicing in this evil base. And how long have we been driven from there by our filthy broom. As happened from Egypt. Why the hell did Syria surrender to us. Launder on contracts to wash? With them you need to have a purely business relationship with quick profit. And do not lend !!!
      2. Constructor68
        Constructor68 8 September 2019 04: 46 New
        -3
        I hope Russia will understand the madness of its policy in the BV and will support Israel. Arabs are people completely alien to us

        How do you Jews support if you are the United States constantly .... kissing your gums? And Russia for the latter is an evil empire, a geopolitical adversary, and so on and so forth. Do not write at least naive nonsense
        1. Kenxnumx
          Kenxnumx 8 September 2019 12: 08 New
          0
          Andrei, if you are not an anti-Semite - a zombie who always considers the percentage of Jews, then try to understand what I’ll write to you.
          1) Israel is an ally of the United States for reasons of survival in a hostile environment, including because of the USSR, which actively supported the enemies of Israel. Should we blame them?
          2) Israel did not impose ANY sanctions against Russia and even imposed a visa-free visa for our citizens. In addition, it supports active cooperation and interaction at the government level. And that's not counting trade. That is, Israel, which does not owe us anything, does not depend on us at all - goes against its ally’s policy towards Russia.
          3) We are not a rival to the United States. Russia is far from the USSR, but simply a regional power, dependent and not very stable. All our rockets and painted power are for internal use. It’s just that US politicians solve their electoral problems by following a new trend - taming us. And it started in 2014. If in 2014 China captured Hongong or India - Madagascar, then the trend would be to subdue them. It’s easier to solve your electoral problems at the expense of an external enemy. And our politicians are like that. What is the fee for housing and communal services if the US oppresses us. Or money is needed for Syria, and not all kinds of repairs. Political elites are the same in all countries. Like the ram-like population.
          1. Constructor68
            Constructor68 8 September 2019 19: 06 New
            0
            We are not a rival to the United States. Russia is far from the USSR, but simply a regional power, dependent and not very stable. All our rockets and painted power are for internal use.

            It’s good for some to live in a shell: the United States is not a rival (probably good Santa Claus), all the propaganda of the Kremlin, Israel can only be an enemy or only an ally, sausage is most important.
    6. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 7 September 2019 12: 40 New
      +8
      "Israel is now not the same as it was, for example, in the 60s" ///
      ----
      It's right. Israel in the 60s exported oranges and processed
      diamonds.
      Now: avionics, chips, robotics, drugs, radars, medical equipment, software.
      With a GDP of 400 billion dollars.
      1. Ryaruav
        Ryaruav 7 September 2019 16: 21 New
        +1
        argue not literate and not knowing
    7. ser56
      ser56 7 September 2019 16: 27 New
      +1
      Quote: Nikolaevich I
      If the Arabs succeed in “crushing” Israel, then will the “civilized world”, the “smut” be cleaner than what is currently available ...

      I think that’s why the leadership of the Russian Federation very carefully builds a balance of relations between Arabs and Israel ... and I won’t be surprised if the United States completely abandons them, then the Russian Federation will help more .... request
      1. Alexey Ilyin
        Alexey Ilyin 8 September 2019 06: 09 New
        +1
        What hangover did you decide that the United States would throw Israel? There are no signs for this.
        1. ser56
          ser56 9 September 2019 11: 46 New
          0
          Quote: Alexey Ilyin
          There are no signs for this.

          under Obama there were, who knows what will happen next ...
    8. Vitaly gusin
      Vitaly gusin 7 September 2019 22: 22 New
      +1
      Quote: Nikolaevich I
      If the Arabs succeed in “crushing” Israel, will the “civilized world”, the “smut”, be cleaner than what is currently available ... an “Arab empire” with a leading ideology - Islamic radicalism? Then Russia will not be left out "...

      IN THIS, YOU ARE RIGHT.
      Quote: Nikolaevich I
      If the Arabs succeed in crushing Israel,

      And how do you imagine that?
      Quote: Nikolaevich I
      Israel is no longer what it was, for example, in the 60 years.

      This is a somewhat controversial statement.
      Yes, in the 60s there were no such media that today they know everything earlier than something begins and everyone found out when everything ended.
      The Arab countries were stuffed with weapons of the USSR that any delay was like death.
      But the same concept remains today INTELLIGENCE, DEVELOPMENT OF MODERN TECHNOLOGICAL NEW SOLUTIONS AND APPLICATION OF PREVENTIVE IMPACT, so that it would not work as you put it:
      "If the Arabs succeed" to crush "Israel"
      1. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 8 September 2019 02: 45 New
        0
        Quote: Vitaly Gusin
        If the Arabs succeed in crushing Israel,

        And how do you imagine that?

        So far, vaguely ...
        Quote: Vitaly Gusin
        Israel is no longer what it was, for example, in the 60 years.

        This is a somewhat controversial statement.

        Maybe ... but right now I won’t argue; partly my opinion is not an "argument", but an "impression" ... "Just", analyzing the "behavior" of Israel, the Israelis over the past decades, you notice some changes in the worldview, the attitude of the Israelis towards the existing "national" priorities .. No matter how the Israelis continued to “actively spit” on international law, on laws, hiding behind the “care” of the United States, they became less (maybe only “a little” ...) “harsh” than “once” ...
        PS I read, somehow, the story of one battalion of special forces of the Israeli army, equipped with either Druze or Tuareg ... ... (damned sclerosis! Are there Tuaregs in Israel?) This battalion was known as a very effective unit in the fight against Palestinian militants! Efficiency was determined by the fact that these "Druze Tuaregs" are natural trackers and the "natural" cruelty of these "defendants". Palestinians were panicky afraid of these special forces ... the battalion successfully controlled the Gaza Strip (?) ... a large number of militants were destroyed, with very small losses of the battalion ... But at one "fine moment" the Israeli command decided to gradually "reorganize" the special .battalion. Maybe it was caused by the "opinion of the world community" about the widely known cruelty of the special forces ... or maybe it was caused by a change in the "loyalty" of the "Druze-Tuareg" to Israel ... I don’t remember exactly, but the "Druze- Tuareg "began" to leave "the battalion. As a result, a relatively small number of “national minorities” remained in the battalion ... but the combat effectiveness of the battalion decreased noticeably! This is a "particularity", but the "whole" consists of "particulars ... and if there are more" particulars ".......?
        1. Vitaly gusin
          Vitaly gusin 8 September 2019 05: 53 New
          +1
          Quote: Nikolaevich I
          I read, somehow, the story of a battalion of special forces of the Israeli army, equipped with either Druze or Tuareg.

          Tuareg Bedouins
          This article reflects reality.
          "Gentile IDF. How Bedouins and Circassians Serve in the Israeli Army"

          https://topwar.ru/158374-neevrejskij-cahal-kak-v-izrailskoj-armii-sluzhat-beduiny-i-cherkesy.html
      2. Constructor68
        Constructor68 8 September 2019 04: 52 New
        -3
        Quote: Nikolaevich I
        If the Arabs succeed in crushing Israel,

        And how do you imagine that?

        Yes Easy. Imagine that Iran at some point has nuclear weapons. The territory of the Jews is quite compact, a lot of warheads will not be required to cover the whole and to throw "manufacturers of cool avionics" into the cave age. I think those who bravely wave their swords should think about how not to cut themselves.
        1. Vitaly gusin
          Vitaly gusin 8 September 2019 06: 06 New
          +2
          Quote: Designer 68
          Imagine that Iran at some point has nuclear weapons.

          When a nuclear reactor capable of producing nuclear weapons appeared in Iraq, Israel conducted Operation OPERA
          When he appeared in Syria, he carried out the operation, carried out the operation "FRUIT GARDEN"
          When it is established that Iran is ready for the production of nuclear weapons, an operation will also be carried out, possibly its name will be "FRUIT JAM IN THE OPERA."
          Everything else that you wrote is just a dream of many but no more.
        2. Nikolaevich I
          Nikolaevich I 8 September 2019 06: 14 New
          +2
          Quote: Designer 68
          Imagine that Iran at some point has nuclear weapons.

          Yes .... in my "dim vision" there is also Iranian nuclear weapons! But I did not begin to "advertise" it ... "vaguely" is "vaguely"! It is not known when nuclear weapons will appear in Iran ... or not, Israel will not! Israel has nuclear weapons ... will the Arabs want to "climb on the rampage"?
          1. Vitaly gusin
            Vitaly gusin 8 September 2019 06: 36 New
            0
            Quote: Nikolaevich I
            It is not known when nuclear weapons will appear in Iran ... or not, Israel will not!

            Israel will not give, you can not doubt it!
            In 2012, Israel was ready to bomb the reactor in Iran, but the majority in the security cabinet at that time stated that they did not agree. Obama assured that an agreement will be signed.
            And they decided to wait and see how the contract would work.
      3. ser56
        ser56 10 September 2019 15: 31 New
        0
        Quote: Vitaly Gusin
        And how do you imagine that?

        as far as I know, the demography of Israel is changing .... request
        Quote: Vitaly Gusin
        AND PREVENTING PREVENTIVE BLOWS,

        Tactically - yes, it does, but it’s a path to nowhere in historical terms ...
        1. Vitaly gusin
          Vitaly gusin 10 September 2019 16: 26 New
          +1
          Quote: ser56
          but this is the path to nowhere in historical terms ...

          Who knows what a historical plan is
          You know that many great countries and peoples simply lost their countries and disappeared, but the Jews remained and still built their country. Yes, and not today's enemies are Syria Lebanon and Iran.
          1. ser56
            ser56 10 September 2019 16: 41 New
            0
            Quote: Vitaly Gusin
            Who knows what a historical plan is

            Israel Wiki Population Dynamics
            Jews,% 82,12 (1948) 75,9 (2006) 74 (2018)
            Arabs,% 17,88 (1948 20,9 (2018)
            1. Vitaly gusin
              Vitaly gusin 10 September 2019 16: 54 New
              +1
              Quote: ser56
              Israel Population Dynamics

              The dynamics of the population of Israel in 2019
              The following are the rates of change in the population of Israel calculated for 2019:
              Fertility: an average of 503 children per day (20.95 per hour)
              Mortality: an average of 125 people per day (5.22 per hour)
              Migration growth: an average of 12 people per day (0.49 per hour)
              The population of Israel will be increased by 2019 people daily in 389.
              Israeli population adjuster
              TO DATE
              Population 8 643 083
              Male population (49.4%) 4
              Female population (50.6%) 4
              Born this year 123
              Born today 300
              30 died this year
              Died Today 75
              2 migrated this year
              Migrated today 7
              Population growth this year 95
              Population growth today 232
    9. 3danimal
      3danimal 9 September 2019 20: 29 New
      +2
      Fortunately, you are exaggerating the possibilities of "radical Arabs."
      But I agree that with any attitude to Israel, he was and remains the more sane, secular, science-oriented. And it’s better to deal and support it.
  5. kiril1246
    kiril1246 7 September 2019 08: 06 New
    +5
    Kartinochki in the subject as they say.
    By the way, after the departure of the Jews in the 90s, the anti-Israeli caricature also died out.

    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 7 September 2019 12: 45 New
      +7
      But Galich’s poem of the 70s is still relevant:
      "Israeli warrior is known all over the world!
      As a mother, I speak and as a woman - I demand them to answer!
      I am sick and widowed, and life - all by ...
      But I'm ready to stand for the cause of peace! " wassat
    2. Ryaruav
      Ryaruav 7 September 2019 16: 20 New
      +3
      and how do you think Arab terrorists around the world are ridiculous about murdered Jewish athletes is ridiculous and how these Moscow behave are ridiculous
  6. 501Legion
    501Legion 7 September 2019 11: 00 New
    +1
    The first aircraft with integrated Israeli equipment will begin to arrive at Hel Havir (Israeli Air Force) in 2020. They will be installed integrated in the body and wings of electronic warfare systems jointly produced by Elbit Systems and IAI. It is expected that they will be able to compensate for the future appearance of radars that determine the position of stealth fighters. NI believes that radars capable of detecting stealth will be put into service in the next 15 years.

    this nonsense was especially funny to read
  7. Corsair5912
    Corsair5912 7 September 2019 11: 58 New
    -8
    Whatever the Jews put on the American fighter, it won’t be better; you won’t make candy out of shit. And where are they going to fly? Who is threatening them? They would sit quietly and go about their Jewish affairs.
    1. Alexey Ilyin
      Alexey Ilyin 8 September 2019 06: 22 New
      +5
      Firstly, the F-1 is a magnificent combat aircraft, and those who encounter it in battle will quickly throw out of their heads the stupid hat-making stamps of Russian propaganda.

      Secondly, you probably slept a good ten years, if you do not know about the regular statements of the Iranian leadership about the need to destroy Israel. And this idea, more or less, is shared by the entire Muslim world. Moreover, the Ayatollah’s speeches are accompanied by specific threatening actions. You are completely off topic. But there too. As in that proverb: Where a horse with a hoof, there is cancer with a claw.
  8. Ryaruav
    Ryaruav 7 September 2019 16: 09 New
    0
    it is likely that the Americans ditched the Lavi fighter program because it was better than f-16 what can I say the country has in terms of technology, I think it makes poor Italy the only way
    1. LastPS
      LastPS 7 September 2019 21: 02 New
      +1
      I think it was not better than the 16th, most likely something about the same, so they did not let him in the series. The Americans most likely delivered the 16th to them very profitably, the mass production of LAVI would have been much more expensive, but as a technology demonstrator, he paid off 100%.
    2. Alexey Ilyin
      Alexey Ilyin 8 September 2019 06: 26 New
      +1
      For striking ground targets, better. For an air battle with enemy fighters, worse, but not by much. Lavi was created as a front-line fighter, ready to conduct maneuverable air battles, but most often used for strikes against ground targets.
      1. LastPS
        LastPS 11 September 2019 08: 32 New
        0
        How was he better for hitting the ground?
  9. Karabas
    Karabas 7 September 2019 16: 17 New
    0
    that the F35I may be a better fighter than the one that is in service with the US Armed Forces

    But where is it better? Is he perfect anyway ?! laughing
  10. shahor
    shahor 7 September 2019 20: 28 New
    +6
    In fact, the article focuses on the plane - and not the relations of Israel with its neighbors. But in order. The plane that Israel will make of the F-35 will not be better or worse than the American one. It will be different, like all Israeli weapons - adapted to the characteristics of military operations in the Middle East. Perhaps another avionics. Surely, a modified electronic attack system. Own OMS. All this will require refinement of the original American software, but it will not affect the kernel. The goal is to get an aircraft capable of delivering precision strikes, with a high probability remaining invulnerable (pay attention - do not write, undetected, here are the subtleties of the electronics). The aircraft should provide a breakthrough in saturated air defense, collect and distribute operational information about ground and air conditions. What will be in fact, we'll see soon.
    As for the wet dreams of the imminent end of the state of Israel.
    The USSR was formed in 1922. He ordered a long life in the 1991th. He was 69 years old. Little. Israel was formed in 1948. Now he is almost 72. Ie Israel is more viable than the USSR. As for the fantasies about how the Arabs, hand in hand, go to smash Israel - not even funny, so naive. Arab countries are very different, they have different economic and political interests, sometimes very different. In recent years, the leadership of some Arab countries began to take a very pragmatic position - identifying priority threats, they do not consider Israel. Well, think for yourself, from whom does the threat of KSA or Bahrain come from Israel or Iran? Consequence - KSA exchanges intelligence information with Israel, buys intelligence electronics and software from Israel. Persistent rumors are circulating (there is no smoke without ...) that the Saudis offered Israel their jump airfields to strike Iran. Bahrain receives delegations of Israeli businessmen and politicians, a few days ago officially supported the Israeli position on Lebanon. Qatar, having purchased the latest F-15XX from the USA, demanded that Lockheed put Israeli avionics on them. You can talk about Egypt, but I finish. No time.
    1. Constructor68
      Constructor68 8 September 2019 05: 05 New
      -4
      Well, think for yourself, from whom does the threat of KSA or Bahrain come from Israel or Iran?

      If there is no time - do not write at all. And then you allow such pearls. Both Saudi Arabia and Qatar profess a Sunni religion, in contrast to Shiite Iran. Therefore, they have no less religious contradictions, if not more, than with Israel. And at KSA and Qatar and Israel, behind the back is a puppeteer in the person of the big dad - the United States. So what is "pragmatism"? What are you writing about?
      1. Alexey Ilyin
        Alexey Ilyin 8 September 2019 06: 39 New
        +2
        He has real pragmatism. You have a sacred belief in conspiracy theory. This theory has long been moldy and provokes a positive response only among uninformed people with blinkered eyes.
        1. Constructor68
          Constructor68 8 September 2019 18: 57 New
          -4
          He has pragmatism, I have faith, and you have the desire to write nonsense.
          What mold, what blinked looks? Did you accidentally fall out of the nest yesterday? Or do you think that Shiite-Sunite conflicts are an unimportant event? Or do you deny the fact that both Qatar and Saudi Arabia and Israel have a common geopolitical ally - the United States? You somehow opened your "informed and unashored" (unlike us) view lol
      2. shahor
        shahor 8 September 2019 19: 07 New
        0
        Quote: Designer 68
        And at KSA and Qatar and Israel, behind the back is a puppeteer in the person of the big dad - the United States. So what is "pragmatism"? What are you writing about?

        I write for people who think and doubt, and not for retelling the stamps of the newspaper Pravda of the 70s. I do not need your advice.
        1. Constructor68
          Constructor68 8 September 2019 20: 10 New
          -1
          I write for people who think and doubt, and not for retelling the stamps of the newspaper True 70s

          Heh) and why did you decide that your writing is suitable for people who think and speak not in cliches? lol for me it’s so trivial to get rid of bullshit. For example, we take a conclusion
          The USSR was formed in 1922. He ordered a long life in the 1991th. He was 69 years old. Little. Israel was formed in 1948. Now he is almost 72. Ie Israel is more viable than the USSR.

          What fright did you draw such a conclusion from? Maybe Israel waged war on its territory on the scale of human and economic losses, equal to the Second World War? Or maybe he participated in an arms race with the enemy, who has the largest military-industrial complex on the planet and the military budget? Or maybe Israel got the secretary general, a traitor, who in five years destroyed not only the economy, the military-industrial complex, the army, but also laid the foundation for the collapse of the country itself? And this conclusion, taken out of the nose, you offer people thinking ??? There is not a single gram of objectivity in it.
          By the way, radar attack, what is this new type of attack? Have you invented it yourself?
          1. Shahno
            Shahno 8 September 2019 20: 22 New
            +1
            Rarely do I advocate radical thoughts.
            Here you have to strain.
            // Maybe Israel waged war on its territory on the scale of human and economic losses, equal to the Second World War? //
            He led and leads. And this is Jerusalem. The scale of this war is great ..
            Participated and is participating in an arms race with the enemy an order of magnitude superior in numbers, this is the Arab-Islamic world ....
            //
            Or maybe Israel got the secretary general, a traitor, who in five years destroyed not only the economy, the military-industrial complex, the army, //
            You think there were few of them. Unlike yours, they are either sitting. Or served. Or will be.
            That is such objectivity.
            1. Constructor68
              Constructor68 8 September 2019 20: 32 New
              +1
              He led and leads. And this is Jerusalem. The scale of this war is great ..
              Participated and is participating in an arms race with the enemy an order of magnitude superior in numbers, this is the Arab-Islamic world ....

              What are you ?! Could you give a link showing that as a result of its wars, Israel lost 15% of its population only killed, not counting the seriously wounded, crippled, disabled. Or maybe Israel was losing 30% of its territory under occupation? Or maybe Israel had destroyed 40% of industrial production? How can you compare shtetl battles like the six-day war with World War II ?!
              You think there were few of them. Unlike yours, they are either sitting. Or served. Or will be.

              What nonsense! The problem is that Gorbachev is not a thief, not an adulterer, and not an embezzler. What should he show? He is a traitor, but in the eyes of the world community - a liberator. Destroyed the evil empire, the Berlin Wall and bla ... Peacemaker, not just bald horseradish
          2. shahor
            shahor 9 September 2019 10: 53 New
            -1
            Quote: Designer 68
            By the way, radar attack, what is this new type of attack? Have you invented it yourself?
            Reply

            I'll start from the end. On f-35, as the Americans write, it’s not electronic warfare, but electronic attack systems. Feel the difference if you can. And the rest that you wrote goes, excuse me, from deep ignorance and from here - a retelling of the contents of the newspaper Pravda. There are traitors who destroyed everything, everything and the greenhouse conditions created by the backstage for Israel ... Stay in your virtual world - it will be better for everyone.
            1. Voyager
              Voyager 9 September 2019 11: 01 New
              0
              And what is the difference between electronic warfare (electronic warfare) and electronic warfare?
              1. shahor
                shahor 9 September 2019 11: 16 New
                0
                Quote: Voyager
                And what is the difference between electronic warfare (electronic warfare) and electronic warfare?

                Judging because I managed to find in the open American press (technical reviews, pilot interviews, etc.) the essence is that the F-35 does not just interfere or tries to create phantom targets, it intervenes in the work, for example, air defense systems, breaking the sequence of work. Well, detection, taking on escort-capture. Somewhere in this chain there is a gap-stuffing of information, as a result of which the target is not visible at all where it is. This, of course, is simplified, but the essence is true. That is, the radar of course sees a target at a certain distance, altitude, but cannot direct a missile at it. How it will work (and whether it will be at all) in practice, we'll see.
                1. Voyager
                  Voyager 9 September 2019 11: 59 New
                  +1
                  But in terms of logic and essence this is the same thing. The same electronic warfare, only with advanced and advanced features. And almost the same properties are possessed by the electronic warfare system installed on the Su-57. This is a multifunctional system consisting of many nodes and is intended both for a complex of defensive measures and for attackers. Parts of it, 101KS and the "Squirrel" are visible through the eyes.

                  It seems to me that soon there is a place to be difficulties of translation and different naming standards with our standards.
                  1. Constructor68
                    Constructor68 9 September 2019 14: 51 New
                    +1
                    You can not argue with him. He does not understand the very essence of electronic warfare. But how much amplitude
                    1. shahor
                      shahor 10 September 2019 10: 59 New
                      0
                      Quote: Designer 68
                      He does not understand the essence of electronic warfare. But how much amplitude

                      Well, understanding ours, reveal the essence?
                      1. Constructor68
                        Constructor68 10 September 2019 18: 34 New
                        +1
                        Well, understanding ours, reveal the essence?

                        And please.
                        Here's how a typical Russian-made SAP works:
                        When training the radar of an American aircraft, our jamming station receives a radar signal and simply “copies” it, redirecting it back to the source. Because the signal emitted by the jamming station is usually more powerful than the radar signal reflected from the aircraft, the enemy’s radar receiver is “tuned” to it. After that, the jamming station begins to set up the jamming interference on all channels for determining the target’s parameters - range, speed and angular coordinates, which are somewhat modified signals of the enemy’s radar, as a result of which the enemy’s missile is highly likely to aim at the “phantom” target. If successful removal of jamming, short-term shutdown of the jamming station leads to disruption in tracking the target radar target or the active homing missiles of the enemy.
                        In fact, this is the same thing that you (a famous expert) described as a miracle ability of a certain radio attack, accessible only to the super cool American F35. lol
                        Somewhere in this chain there is a gap-stuffing of information, as a result of which the target is not visible at all where it is. This, of course, is simplified, but the essence is true.

                        You would be less excited about the American military-industrial complex. And then for a reason you’ll fall
                      2. shahor
                        shahor 11 September 2019 10: 39 New
                        -1
                        Quote: Designer 68
                        You would be less excited about the American military-industrial complex. And then for a reason you’ll fall

                        You don’t understand anything. Get excited on ... SAP. To argue with you is boring. You about Thomas - about Yerema.
                      3. Constructor68
                        Constructor68 11 September 2019 12: 19 New
                        +1
                        To argue with you is boring.

                        Of course you are bored. Because you don’t understand the topic of the dispute, and apart from the answers in the style of “durak itself” you’re not able to degenerate anything laughing
                        And this despite the fact that for my part I gave a certain opinion based on the arguments. But instead of counterarguing in case of disagreement, the maximum that you are honored with is mournful:
                        This is a retelling of the contents of the newspaper True

                        Get excited on ... SAP. To argue with you is boring.

                        I write for people who think and doubt, and not for retelling the stamps of the newspaper True 70s

                        By the way, you started to be excited on SAP. They painted here the miraculous properties of the American station of active interference (SAP - this is how this thing is deciphered, comrade expert)
              2. shahor
                shahor 10 September 2019 14: 15 New
                -1
                Quote: Voyager
                But in terms of logic and essence this is the same thing.

                I won’t argue here. I only emphasize that the term attack was used in relation to the F-35. You know, they have the Growler, the most powerful electronic warfare tool, which is still receiving new equipment. But in relation to him, the Americans do not use this term. I just wondered why- RE attack? What is so new about the RE weapons of this aircraft? Why did Americans find it necessary to use this term? We actually know very little about the F-35. Pilots who fly on it for 5-7 years are very laconic (I judge by what is in the open press). But here's what I found — the plane they fly on today is not at all the one they originally boarded. So they say. However, we are not talking about the modification of iron aircraft. We are talking about new blocks of software that allows you to reveal the potential of iron. Lockheed, he said, had urged such updates right up to 1924. It came with a creak, but it seemed to work. We are waiting for unpleasant surprises. And the term electronic attack, quite, in my opinion, can be considered a new and promising part of electronic warfare. Till. And then we'll see.
        2. Constructor68
          Constructor68 9 September 2019 15: 04 New
          +1
          I'll start from the end. On f-35, as the Americans write, it’s not electronic warfare, but electronic attack systems. Feel the difference if you can.

          Start not from the end, but from the fact that you stop puffing out your cheeks, bearing in the commentary primary stupidity. Do you even understand the essence of electronic warfare? Hahaha laughing it is a masterpiece of the day! This is not EW, this is an electronic attack laughing Do you even know how SAP works? Close saw a sofa expert?
          And the rest that you wrote goes, excuse me, from deep ignorance and from here - a retelling of the contents of the newspaper Pravda. There are traitors who destroyed everything, and the greenhouse conditions created by the backstage for Israel ...

          Judging by the fact that the same mantra is repeated over and over instead of arguments, the comrade merged. And then it was pathos, pathos laughing
          1. 3danimal
            3danimal 9 September 2019 21: 11 New
            0
            So YOU ​​have not provided any arguments other than conspiracy theories. Gorbachev the traitor, is this your mantra? )
            I heard that there were such annoyed Chekists who believed that it was necessary / could shoot the strikers, demonstrators (as in Novocherkassk, there was an experience). But in 1991, there was no one to follow such instructions (fortunately), up to sending 3-letter divisions by the commanders.
      3. 3danimal
        3danimal 9 September 2019 20: 41 New
        0
        Have read / heard enough, not understanding, and repeat.
        Gorbachev was just trying to save the Union, which was already cracking. The collapse and mismanagement in the economy were compensated by the sale of oil to Western countries, but with the fall in prices, the backup also fell. In addition, it turned out that without information control over citizens, they cease to support the Communists.
        1. Constructor68
          Constructor68 10 September 2019 09: 00 New
          +1
          Comrade Mikhail Sergeyevich, it is not good for you, an elderly person and a politician, to hide under anonymous nicknames for the sake of whitewashing your beloved. All the same, you will not be washed. One process of economic collapse, due to which one half of industrial enterprises ceased to exist, and the other fell into the hands of resourceful businessmen, which is worth it.
          And your obligation to the Americans to destroy the OTR 23 complex (the predecessor of the OTRK Iskander) for the sake of populism, you certainly cannot name anything else. Since the Americans did not destroy their tactical complexes with a range of less than 500 km.
          And as for the collapse of the Union is not for you to bay. Your whole policy has prepared this collapse.
          So, an honored pensioner, it is a pity that senility and cowardice do not give you the opportunity to realize what you have done. Otherwise, you would have shot yourself long ago as your Marshal Akhromeev.
          1. 3danimal
            3danimal 10 September 2019 12: 37 New
            +1
            Industrial enterprises were not built into the world economy (where they unexpectedly appeared on equal terms with the “whales”) and were ineffective. Who will buy a local analogue of an Apple computer for $ 5000 +, when (already) can I purchase an original for 1300? This is not to mention the probable problems with spare parts. (A separate example, but reflects the situation).
            P.S. "Honorary pensioner" at 35? Thank you humbly;))
            1. Constructor68
              Constructor68 10 September 2019 14: 39 New
              +1
              Industrial enterprises were not built into the world economy (where they unexpectedly appeared on equal terms with the “whales”) and were ineffective.

              Any change in the economic platform should be systematic; reforms should be prepared. For example, like China. But the bald man and his sixes decided that a couple of years would be enough, and the market would streamline itself. This was the stake. But nichrome like that. The market failed. The economy collapsed, enterprises went bankrupt and closed, the population became impoverished, and hyperinflation arose. Against this background, the government also carried out privatization, the results of which are known - the country's largest strategic complexes for nothing have passed into the hands of businessmen. So I don’t need to write nonsense here. I saw it with my own eyes. And you at that time I think only mastered the pot
              1. Shahno
                Shahno 10 September 2019 14: 53 New
                +1
                Well, if the conversation went beyond the Soviet past. It should be planned, which interfered systematically.
                Why didn’t China interfere ..
                In the end, why Israel has integrated into the global economy.
                Why is the USSR (Russia) still attached?
                Or do you think we have more resources?
                So this is all in favor of the poor. You chose this power, as if the question should have arisen for a long time. And how much do smart people need to understand why they are robbed, and how to avoid this?
                1. 3danimal
                  3danimal 10 September 2019 16: 29 New
                  +1
                  Was there a total state plan and a ban on private enterprises in Israel?
                  Reforms similar to the Russian Federation were carried out (to the end and successfully in Poland). Results are visible.
                2. Okolotochny
                  Okolotochny 11 September 2019 13: 21 New
                  -2
                  In the end, why Israel has integrated into the global economy.
                  Why is the USSR (Russia) still attached?

                  So they are trying to shove her out of there. Who you know, because of what, you also know.
                  1. 3danimal
                    3danimal 11 September 2019 14: 56 New
                    -1
                    Due to racism, they do not like our faces and spirituality))
              2. 3danimal
                3danimal 10 September 2019 16: 02 New
                0
                Gorbachev withdrew at the beginning of the 90's, amid the crisis and the attempted coup (which was also a dead end, an attempt to freeze and roll back).
                But the fundamental problem was the consequences of the experiments that 70 years spent a bunch of terrorists, fanatics and criminals, who made a coup and dusted the brains of the population.
                1. Constructor68
                  Constructor68 10 September 2019 17: 53 New
                  +2
                  But the fundamental problem was the consequences of experiments conducted by a handful of terrorists, fanatics and criminals for 70 years, which carried out a coup and dusted the brains of the population.

                  Stupidity is all this. The economy of the USSR, with all its drawbacks, had a significant margin of safety. Even compared to the American one. This was recognized even by American economists. Read Lentiev for example. This is a famous American economist, Nobel laureate.
                  Gorbachev resigned in the early 90s, amid the crisis and the attempted coup (which was also a dead end, an attempt to freeze and roll back

                  By the time Gorbachev had "eliminated" himself, the country had long been in economic collapse, which began in 89.
          2. 3danimal
            3danimal 10 September 2019 12: 40 New
            0
            Due to problems with the economy (in some way, its absence), against the background of a 3-fold decrease in the flow of oil- $, they got loans. All this, with an increase in military spending. A richer arms race ...
  • Shahno
    Shahno 10 September 2019 16: 10 New
    0
    Quote: 3danimal
    Gorbachev withdrew at the beginning of the 90's, amid the crisis and the attempted coup (which was also a dead end, an attempt to freeze and roll back).
    But the fundamental problem was the consequences of the experiments that 70 years spent a bunch of terrorists, fanatics and criminals, who made a coup and dusted the brains of the population.

    You see, here's the thing. This is evident only at the end of the process, after decades. As long as people live in the system, they don’t feel it (well, normal, healthy majority). It's like a two-dimensional fly on a three-dimensional ball. laughing
    That is, you understand what I want to say about the current system. I hope.
    1. Constructor68
      Constructor68 10 September 2019 17: 58 New
      +3
      Then it was very felt. I remember inflation very well in those years) in 89, I had a sn of 120 rubles. In 91 - 1500. In 93m - 50, and by 000m she where she was about 95 thousand laughing But money was hardly paid. But Putin is probably to blame for this as usual lol
      1. 3danimal
        3danimal 11 September 2019 15: 06 New
        0
        Continue the chronicle: how did you live in 1999-2000? And also, correlate a further increase in living standards with rising oil prices.
        In addition, compare the opportunities for acquiring Auto and household appliances in the 89th and 99th.
        1. Constructor68
          Constructor68 11 September 2019 18: 52 New
          +1
          In addition, compare the opportunities for acquiring Auto and household appliances in the 89th and 99th.

          Opportunities for buying a car are difficult to compare. I bought my first car in the 96th. The next one is at 98. Both Vaz. If in 89 the stratification was based on the principle "there is a car / no car", then starting from the mid-90s, the stratification began already by the type of car. Because there were foreign cars, “thieves” nines and so on.
          But with household appliances everything was simple - in 89 it was available only to celestials. At 92 I bought the first Philips TV 15 diagonal, it was wow how cool. And by the end of the 90s, video technology no longer caused shock. Availability has appeared
          1. Constructor68
            Constructor68 11 September 2019 20: 07 New
            +1
            51diagonal
          2. 3danimal
            3danimal 11 September 2019 20: 10 New
            0
            Have you ever thought about the reasons for the availability? Reflections sometimes give the opportunity to enter the “third dimension”.
          3. 3danimal
            3danimal 12 September 2019 06: 12 New
            0
            Have you ever thought about the reasons for accessibility? Or did she “just appear”?
            And note, in the 96th you bought your Auto out of turn and not for a lot of money (or for even more crazy on the black market).
            A closed economy, a total state monopoly on production (with a ban for private owners under the threat of prison sentences) - always lead to shortages, high cost of the same household appliances and Auto, poor quality of services (it is such a monopoly).
            1. Constructor68
              Constructor68 12 September 2019 17: 16 New
              +1
              A closed economy, a total state monopoly on production (with a ban for private owners under the threat of prison sentences) - always lead to shortages, high cost of the same household appliances and Auto, poor quality of services (it is such a monopoly).

              Ordinary users completely reject your idea. For some reason, they do not like the gains of perestroika in the form of expensive housing, high prices for food, gasoline, medicine.
              1. 3danimal
                3danimal 12 September 2019 17: 36 New
                0
                Rising prices for Tariffs - this is for the current president and government.
                Perestroika ended with the collapse of the USSR. Next was another stage, a process. Market reforms were carried out.
                Tell me, did you buy a car one by one? And probably saved about 10 years on it? )
                Obviously, there is nothing to say about the “appearance of accessibility” either.
                There is a cliche in my head: it used to be good, now it's bad. And you begin to discuss in detail - immediately general excuses.
        2. Constructor68
          Constructor68 11 September 2019 19: 06 New
          +1
          And also, correlate a further increase in living standards with rising oil prices.

          One of the indicators of the state of the economy is inflation. So, it has nothing to do with rising oil prices in the 90-2000s. The rise in oil prices (tangible) began in the mid-2000s - 2004-2005. A decrease in inflation (from record hyperinflation rates in the late 80s - early 90s) began from 96-97. and by the year 2000, it had actually stabilized.
          So do not pull the owl on the globe)))
          1. 3danimal
            3danimal 11 September 2019 19: 49 New
            0
            Do you also have to thank Putin for reducing inflation from 96 to 2000? )
            And an increase in the influx of petrodollars inevitably increases wealth. Just compare the number of dollar billionaires in 1999 and 2009.
            1. Constructor68
              Constructor68 11 September 2019 20: 04 New
              +1
              Do you also have to thank Putin for reducing inflation from 96 to 2000? )

              May give thanks if you want

              And an increase in the influx of petrodollars inevitably increases wealth. Just compare the number of dollar billionaires in 1999 and 2009.

              You are not whining, as you are trying to drag everything to the petrodollars. Do you have one blank? The grouping of billionaires has developed from the results of privatization (and where simply appropriation) so many vast sectors of the Russian economy that petrodollars are only a small part of all this
              1. 3danimal
                3danimal 12 September 2019 06: 03 New
                0
                No, let's go through the numbers and the years. It was in the 00s and 10s that ~ 90% of modern Russian billionaires appeared. With all the good of GDP.
              2. Constructor68
                Constructor68 12 September 2019 16: 40 New
                +1
                To hell with you and your beloved Putin. What are you pushing him into any hole? Gorbachev and his reforms, treacherous for the country, were discussing, but somehow you switched to Putin ... These are really Putin-dependent: ///
                1. 3danimal
                  3danimal 12 September 2019 21: 33 New
                  0
                  Putin, by the way, but the number of Russian billionaires is directly related to the post of oil revenues.
                  Once again: budget growth - increased spending, public sector wages, social programs, roads, transportation. Those. overall increase in wealth. And the budget more than half consists of money from the sale of hydrocarbons.
                  Market reforms were necessary, the very concept of total state monopoly is deeply flawed and inevitably has the disadvantages of all super-monopolies. The repressive system, the practice of classifying everything and everything (including shoals of departments and officials), censorship, was underway.
                  Now the main disadvantages are the lack of a normal system of checks, IMHO. They do not immediately come to this.
    2. 3danimal
      3danimal 11 September 2019 15: 01 New
      0
      Then the third dimension was available. A small part of people went abroad to developed countries and saw a different life: a variety of goods, more wealth in the same positions, no shortage, restrictions on traveling abroad.
      And discontent gradually grew, and with the removal of censorship (for the most part), it intensified.
      1. Constructor68
        Constructor68 11 September 2019 18: 56 New
        +2
        Then the third dimension was available. A small part of people went abroad to developed countries and saw a different life: a variety of goods, more wealth in the same positions, no shortage, restrictions on traveling abroad.

        I had the opportunity to leave. But by this time I had already taken place as a specialist. To go abroad to collect stools at the level of the same emigrants - I did not want Arabs. And I do not regret it. Everything that abroad can offer me, and so I can get without really straining. Well, almost everything.
        1. 3danimal
          3danimal 11 September 2019 20: 16 New
          0
          If you are a good specialist, you can find work not on assembling stools.
          The husband of his wife’s girlfriend, a programmer, performed a number of works for a company in the USA, after which he received an offer to work with them. And they left. Now opened his own IT office. Home, wife, housewife, children in a private school.
          The main difficulty was the change of environment and language.
          1. Constructor68
            Constructor68 12 September 2019 16: 55 New
            +1
            The husband of his wife’s girlfriend, a programmer, performed a number of works for a company in the USA, after which he received an offer to work with them. And they left. Now opened his own IT office. Home, wife, housewife, children in a private school.

            Stupidity. Emigrating is good only for lack of talent or for those who cannot be realized due to the specifics of their work, for example, the impracticability of scientific developments on the domestic technical base or because of the inertness of the domestic market to the product (problems with investment and marketing). Everything else is stupid. His country house + apartment in a prestigious residential complex, his wife is a housewife and children in a prestigious university - all this is without running around abroad.
            1. 3danimal
              3danimal 12 September 2019 17: 50 New
              0
              Here his plans were not in demand. The man did not set a goal to break into the Russian Federation at any cost. The opportunity presented itself - took advantage. There is a bigger market.
        2. 3danimal
          3danimal 11 September 2019 20: 18 New
          0
          But the comment was about something else. As much as the authorities did not want this, the population of the Union was not in complete isolation, receiving streams of information about life outside the “border on the castle”.
  • 3danimal
    3danimal 12 September 2019 06: 08 New
    0
    [quote = Constructor68] [quote]Do you also have to thank Putin for reducing inflation from 96 to 2000? )[/ Quote]
    May give thanks if you want
    [quote] [i]
    I don’t want, not at all.
    Obviously, on this issue you did not find what to answer.
    How did a bad market begin to improve in the second half of the 2s? Now imagine that then oil would cost $ 90-60. And the budget would swell from foreign exchange earnings.
    1. Constructor68
      Constructor68 12 September 2019 17: 03 New
      +2
      Obviously, on this issue you did not find what to answer.

      To the stupid question the corresponding answer
      Now imagine that then oil would cost $ 60-100. And the budget would swell from foreign exchange earnings

      If my grandmother had horseradish, her grandfather would be called. In fact, I showed you the discrepancy between your (or rather not only yours, but everyone who likes to explain the evolution in the economy only futures prices for hydrocarbons) theory of the alleged dependence of the growth of economic indicators on rising oil prices. Realizing that there is nothing to cover for you, you climbed to discuss Putin and millionaires
      1. 3danimal
        3danimal 12 September 2019 17: 47 New
        0
        Most of the budget filling comes from the sale of hydrocarbons. Get out of the way, although everything lies on the surface.
        1. Constructor68
          Constructor68 13 September 2019 11: 57 New
          0
          Most of the budget filling comes from the sale of hydrocarbons. Get out of the way, although everything lies on the surface.

          Well, you at least add a postscript "in my opinion." To make me not so funny laughing
          The share of hydrocarbons in GDP is 28%, the budget is 45%. No need to duplicate other people's speculation
          1. 3danimal
            3danimal 13 September 2019 13: 36 New
            0
            And there we take taxes from mining companies, their employees, other secondary profits tied to the "oil industry". And we get more than 50%.
            1. Constructor68
              Constructor68 13 September 2019 17: 49 New
              -1
              And there we take taxes from mining companies, their employees, other secondary profits tied to the "oil industry". And get more than 50%

              What nonsense did you just write? Taxes, excise taxes on the export of hydrocarbons is the income from the sale, the very money that causes some fans to poke about the gas station state and so on. Or did you think that the state itself trades in oil and earns income?
              their employees

              I realized what I wrote? Do you want to say that the personal income tax from which contributions to the pension fund and compulsory medical insurance are paid is the income from the sale of hydrocarbons ????! laughing fool)))
              1. 3danimal
                3danimal 13 September 2019 18: 39 New
                0
                People work in the field of oil production and get paid from it.
                In any case, oil and gas is the most significant part of budget revenues. We cut it six times (prices of about $ 10 per barrel) and the budget is reduced from 250 billion to 155, at least. Realistically - even more, as interconnected industries will suffer.
                In this situation, the standard of living will drop markedly.
  • 3danimal
    3danimal 12 September 2019 06: 18 New
    0
    I made one interesting observation, comparing the layout of the Su-57 and F-35/22 (from the position of reducing the EPR).
    Lantern, we have it in two parts, which increases this EPR. But after a short study, it turned out that there was not a single aircraft developed by the USSR / RF, on which there would have been a single, unbinding lamp. (The USA has at least F-16).
    Which once again confirms the hunch about the lack of technology for its production.
    1. Constructor68
      Constructor68 13 September 2019 12: 00 New
      -1
      Which once again confirms the hunch about the lack of technology for its production.

      Man, do not tell! Do not write it anymore. I don’t want to spend another week trying to prove the inconsistency of your beliefs about the EPR stop wink
      1. 3danimal
        3danimal 13 September 2019 13: 37 New
        0
        What do you think I have about EPR?
        P.S. You have not proven anything yet. The main argument is "they (in the KLA) know better." So does Lockheed.
        What about the basics of radar? Have you figured out how to get around? )
        1. Constructor68
          Constructor68 13 September 2019 17: 59 New
          -1
          What kind? There is a category of people on the Internet who persistently retells one stupid text about the Su57 for a year now. It runs like a red thread: Su57 is being built for a long time, it is already obsolete, it has no engines, it does not have stealth coverage, it has the wrong air intakes, S-air intakes are the only right solution, without a solid cast lamp the Su-57 stealth, its EPR is too large for a stealth fighter, the Su57 is not a 5th generation plane at all, a flat nozzle is the only right solution, the engines glow for 100km and there are probably a dozen memorized phrases.
          1. 3danimal
            3danimal 13 September 2019 18: 44 New
            0
            You are talking about someone else. Here there is only my opinion and reasoning, which I am ready to revise if there are logical arguments.
            S-shaped air intakes allow you to hide the blades of the compressors, the most noticeable part in the faculty. With them, the EPR is greater than without them. The absence of a solid flashlight also makes the EPR larger than with it.
            Undoubtedly, the visibility of the Su-57 is less than that of the same Su-35. But could become even smaller. Not 10, but 100 times.
            1. 3danimal
              3danimal 13 September 2019 19: 51 New
              -2
              With S-shaped less, with a separate lamp - more))
            2. Constructor68
              Constructor68 13 September 2019 19: 57 New
              +2
              With them, the EPR is greater than without them. The absence of a solid flashlight also makes the EPR larger than with it.

              Is that all you know about S-shaped airspace and a way to reduce ESR?
              1. 3danimal
                3danimal 14 September 2019 13: 49 New
                0
                Enlighten me.
                Coatings - only complement constructive solutions to stealth. At least two elements are missing.
                But there is a larger bomb bay.
                Anti-radar spraying of glass is also on F-22/35. Are you talking about him? Only their glass is also whole. No additional reflections from the joint.
                And there is no other logical explanation, except for the lack of production technologies for just whole glass for the cabin lantern.
                1. Constructor68
                  Constructor68 14 September 2019 20: 11 New
                  0
                  I have so often led discussions with people who are just as mistaken about EPR, that honestly it's already tired.
                  I will say this: many comments made, in particular, in isolation from the system, to some extent, have a basis. And this is used by those who inflate the aforementioned blabla about "Su57 is not a 5th generation fighter." But if you just look systemically, then most of these points either dissolve or look like a frank pull by the ears. Because
                  1. Most arguments are not considered in the system.
                  2. Most commentators know absolutely nothing about the topic except for a couple of advertising data and rumors "grandma said"
                  I will give examples. For example air intakes (VZ). There are two ways to reduce the reflection of the radio signal from the fan blades and the first stage compressor: radar blockers and Sobr. OT. Both of them allow, due to multiple re-reflections of the wave on the walls of the airspace, to partially disperse and partially swallow it. But provided that the walls themselves will be covered with RPP. In this case, both methods have disadvantages. The designers who design the aircraft determine what is more important for this aircraft against the background of the tasks assigned to it. After all, the plane does not just have to have characteristics in itself. These characteristics are dictated by the range of tasks and battle tactics.
                  The second hackneyed topic: a lantern. In fact, this is generally stupid. The reflection of the radio signal from the internal elements of the cockpit (dashboard, pilot's chair, etc.) is 100 times higher than from binding. The ejection seat generally glows like a corner reflector. Part of the problem is solved by magnetron coating the inner surfaces of the lantern - the incident wave partially reflects the coating, partially absorbs due to ohmic losses in the thin film, and partially passes into the cabin. The wave reflected from the inside of the cabin is also partially reflected, partially absorbed, partially passes through the coating. But the solution to the problem is only partial and part of the wave energy still goes back to the radar. Therefore, against this background, the participation of binding in the general EPR is not significant, and if we consider the detection range from 4 ° C from the EPR, it is able to bring it a couple of centimeters away from the force. By the way, F117 and B1B (US stealth aircraft) are equipped with binders. Meanwhile, their visibility is considered a reference. But we also have to take into account the minuses of a solid cast lamp - weight and distortion. And it’s not worth pouring about technology - the manufacture of molded glass has long been not a secret wisdom.
                  And the scribble about engine handols is generally a separate song laughing
                  1. 3danimal
                    3danimal 14 September 2019 20: 42 New
                    0
                    Now you will tell that very few radio waves are reflected from the compressor blades)
                    1. Constructor68
                      Constructor68 15 September 2019 10: 35 New
                      +2
                      Now you will tell that very few radio waves are reflected from compressors)

                      Now I’ll say that you either ask a question or (if you don’t agree) counteragment or go on singing about “Su-57 is not a 5th generation airplane”. Communication with throats is not very interesting.
                      1. 3danimal
                        3danimal 15 September 2019 11: 17 New
                        0
                        OK. Could you argue your position about “scribbling about engine nacelles” a little better than “they know better in the UAC”?
                        I gave my version: other priorities in the terms of reference (large bomb bay), I decided to implement only partially (half-open compressors).
                      2. Constructor68
                        Constructor68 15 September 2019 19: 42 New
                        +1
                        "Writings about engine nacelles"

                        I call this a scribble because many begin to exaggerate the topic like this: the nacelles of Su57 engines are open, which makes them much more noticeable in the IR spectrum. This is also true, but as in the cases above - only partially.
                        Firstly, it is clear that now drying only exist as test samples. Therefore, parts of the equipment are not currently in view of its refinement.
                        Secondly, in fact, all (absolutely all sofa experts) believe that the visible covers, like the F22, is the main decision. Just not so. The casings alone do not solve the problem of reducing the thermal signature. Because the barrier that prevents the removal of heat into the atmosphere for a short time itself acquires the temperature of the engine shell. To prevent this from happening, a forced air blowing from 2 compressor stages was invented. That is, the main task of reducing the visible spectrum is not the casing itself, but the cooling system, which can exist without additional heat protection.
                        And one more thing that deprives the whole idea of ​​a thermal signature of a part of the meaning is the ability to detect a plane in the frontal projection with the help of OLS, and we and the Americans have about 25-30 miles. And make guidance even less. At such a distance, the target will be GUARANTEED by radar, even with all the stealth capabilities of modern aircraft. Well, unless if the detection is interfered with by attack tactics, for example, from under a veil of interference exposed by EW aircraft. But these are questions of tactics, not characteristics of aircraft.
                      3. 3danimal
                        3danimal 15 September 2019 19: 52 New
                        0
                        Based on the known characteristics of the radars 57 and 22, as well as their frontal EPR, the 22nd will detect (in LPI mode) and be able to attack first. In the absence of external assistance radar, our learns about the attack when the missiles are already pretty close.
                        About forced airflow: you are not about the 2nd circuit of the turbojet engine?
                        A flat nozzle cools the jet better. But in the mass F-35 they decided not to put it. IMHO, due to problems of unification with the model "B".
                        I am 99% sure that there will be no radar blockers inserted into the airspace and will not be explained to everyone: and so good, this is not the main thing.
                      4. Constructor68
                        Constructor68 15 September 2019 20: 17 New
                        +3
                        I am 99% sure that there will be no radar blockers inserted into the airspace and will not be explained to everyone: and so good, this is not the main thing.

                        Start by answering 2 questions:
                        1. why did you decide that they are not now?
                        2. And what do you think - on the F35 there are radar blockers?
                        (in LPI mode)

                        Do not repeat the advertising mantra about this mode. In reality, the detection range in this mode does not exceed the range of the same 30-35 miles. In addition, the LPI mode is very, very sensitive to any information interference.
                        Our attack finds out when the missiles are already quite close.

                        Another tale idolaters of the American genius love to tell at night. Just wondering how the F22 will aim without turning on the radar? Suppose, somehow (cunningly), he discovered a target and fired rockets with an ANN trace from the radio silence mode. But in the course of the flight, it is still necessary to carry out the adjustment of the rocket until the target is captured by its ARS GOS. Therefore, there will be no complete radio silence. I'm not talking about modern systems for detecting the torch of launching missiles in the ultraviolet spectrum, which the same Su57 has. However, she also recently appeared to the Americans.
                      5. 3danimal
                        3danimal 15 September 2019 20: 25 New
                        0
                        It will detect rockets by torch, but hardly earlier than by its radar.
                        Correction is carried out by very weak pulses.
                        The developers announced a range of 193km for LPI, with an EPR of 1m square. With the 57th EPR in 0,1m sq (front), the range will be 109km.
                        Of course, there is a visible effect from the introduction of stealth technologies. Indeed, the capture range of its GOS missiles will be 1,77 (root of 4 degrees out of 10) times less.
                      6. Constructor68
                        Constructor68 15 September 2019 20: 44 New
                        +2
                        The developers announced a range of 193km for LPI, with an EPR of 1m square. With 57th EPR in 0,1m sq.,

                        So far, these are fairy tales of the Vienna forest. LPI mode does not exceed the operating power of the radar in normal mode. In addition, its minus is that it uses an antenna with a narrow beam and small side lobes. That allows you to scan only a small sector in azimuth.
                      7. 3danimal
                        3danimal 15 September 2019 21: 06 New
                        +1
                        Of course, does not exceed. The point is its low "noise" - distribute power over the frequency spectrum.
                        Useful function, it is necessary to adopt.
                  2. 3danimal
                    3danimal 15 September 2019 20: 48 New
                    0
                    About radar blockers:
                    On f-35 they are not, he has S-shaped airborne lined with RPM.
                    Judging by the latest photos of the 57th, he does not have them.
                  3. Constructor68
                    Constructor68 15 September 2019 21: 11 New
                    +3
                    About radar blockers:
                    On f-35 they are not, he has S-shaped airborne lined with RPM.

                    That's exactly what there is. Only they stand not TO the turbine, but AFTER.
                    Judging by the latest photos of the 57th, he does not have them.

                    Remind one opponent who generally managed to calculate the ESR of the Su57 from a photograph. This is probably from the category of love spell and hemorrhoid treatment according to the photo laughing Did you see these photos yourself? And what did you notice on them?
                    In fact, even on the first aircraft of the series there were already KRC, coaxial-radial gratings, performing the function of RB.
                  4. 3danimal
                    3danimal 15 September 2019 21: 17 New
                    0
                    I'm talking about this photo. RPM is there, most likely. But the shoulder blades are visible ..
                    In PPP, it does not matter if there are blockers after the turbine or not. "Glow" - the shoulder blades.
                    And anyway, where does such information come from? After the turbine - in front of the nozzle? What's the point?
                    http://forum.militaryparitet.com/extensions/hcs_image_uploader/uploads/250000/0/250424/p1cc168v0513d112pbr9o1j2o15ke2.png
                  5. Constructor68
                    Constructor68 15 September 2019 21: 25 New
                    +2
                    Firstly, this photo was taken already in 2010, a shaggy year, and not "from the last". Secondly, what is visible on them is CRC.
                  6. 3danimal
                    3danimal 15 September 2019 21: 28 New
                    0
                    https://vpk.name/news/64045_t50_pak_fa__opublikovan_oficialnyii_patentnyii_analiz.html
                    I also found it.
                    If you look closely, you can see it from the front?
                    However, the solution is worse than S-patterns.
                    In the last they completely cover up the "stuffing" ...
                  7. Constructor68
                    Constructor68 15 September 2019 21: 32 New
                    +2
                    Are you striving by any means to prove the validity of your errors? I wrote that the Saturnites put the CRC at the start of the tests. Already then CRC were covered by RPP.
                  8. Constructor68
                    Constructor68 15 September 2019 21: 40 New
                    +2
                    However, the solution is worse than S-patterns.

                    What do you mean worse? It feels like you are not reading what I am writing. Firstly, “worse / better” is considered only in the system. Because Sobr VZ has its drawbacks, for example, a decrease in inlet pressure. Secondly, the airborne reflectivity not only depends on the bending of the channel, but also on its size and inclination relative to the flight axis and the vector of the irradiating signal.
                  9. 3danimal
                    3danimal 15 September 2019 21: 52 New
                    0
                    The same with open-turbine turbine engines has its drawbacks. At a minimum, they also do not “add” inlet pressure.
                    Compare the system.
                    It is such a solution, IMHO, was chosen because of other priorities in the creation.
                  10. Ka-52
                    Ka-52 16 September 2019 10: 47 New
                    +1
                    Compare systems

                    to compare, you need to understand WHAT to compare.
                    In fact, the discussion about some kind of ESR EZ is a type of discussion of a spherical horse in a vacuum. What sofa analysts like to do. Because in order to declare the degree of reflection of a wave from an OT, a clear representation of the wave propagation pattern along the channel, the ratio of the wavelength frequency, to the channel width, the OT axis with respect to the aircraft axis, is necessary. Because it is possible to choose such a channel width and such a Brewster angle (70 g) that even for axial directions it is possible to reduce the EPR by an order of magnitude. For example, if a coating with a dielectric and magnetic permeabilities of έ≈14, μ = 1,7-ί1,6 is applied with a layer of thickness d = 0.65 mm, then at a wavelength of λ = 3 cm, its equivalent impedance will weakly depend on the angle of incidence of the plane wave. In human terms, it means that RPP material will absorb and dissipate energy with the same efficiency as it does when a wave with large angles of incidence is reflected in Sobr. OT. And it will give the same wave attenuation effect even without radar blockers
                    The same with open-turbine turbine engines has its drawbacks. At a minimum, they also do not “add” inlet pressure.

                    heh, the fact is that the elements of the RB and the shape of the blades can be worked out (and Saturn worked them out, as far as I know), so that there would be no "shadow" and turbulence. But with Sobr. nothing to be done - there will be variable compression waves in the supersonic flow on the one hand and deceleration of the flow to subsonic speed on the other. In any case, this will affect the operation of the engine. up to surging at significant angles of attack.
                  11. 3danimal
                    3danimal 16 September 2019 14: 47 New
                    0
                    I do not agree. In all turbojet engines, airflow is inhibited to subsonic speed at the engine inlet.
                  12. Ka-52
                    Ka-52 17 September 2019 05: 57 New
                    0
                    I do not agree. In all turbojet engines, airflow is inhibited to subsonic speed at the engine inlet.

                    Well, my friend, don’t compare horseradish with your finger ^)) The incoming air flow at the entrance to the OT during flight is close to 1M and all the more higher has a supersonic speed. At VU VZ, the incoming flow is slowed down to translate its kinetic energy into potential energy of air pressure (recall Bernoulli's law). That is, the higher the flow rate, the more effective its braking, the higher the pressure on the compressor. And as a result - increased traction. A chain of shock waves is formed on the braking surface and specially profiled edges of the shell to increase the pressure (the braking from supersonic speed to subsonic speed always occurs abruptly and is accompanied by an increase in pressure, temperature and density. At a direct shock wave, air always slows down to a speed below the speed of sound). So, in Sobr. Due to the bending of the channel, part of the shock waves is destroyed on the boundary layer, which leads to a pressure drop on the compressor. But the problem is not even the fall itself. And the fact that this phenomenon is not stable and can manifest itself in different ways at different speeds and at different angles of attack and slip.
                2. 3danimal
                  3danimal 16 September 2019 14: 48 New
                  0
                  In addition, there are EPR data from Lockheed and UAC. According to them, indicators 22 and 35 are better.
                3. Ka-52
                  Ka-52 17 September 2019 06: 07 New
                  0
                  In addition, there are EPR data from Lockheed and UAC. According to them, indicators 22 and 35 are better.

                  I will now declare that I am stronger than Dwayne Johnson Rock. Would that be true? It's funny when adults (and probably far from stupid) people believe in “statements” without even trying to think laughing
                  what data????????? Is there a comparison of echo cards in all projections of both? Did you see them? Actually, the radar portrait of LA is a mystery behind 7 seals. Not for nothing all the "five" fly with Luneberg lenses.
                4. 3danimal
                  3danimal 17 September 2019 11: 40 New
                  0
                  There is you, but there is a manufacturing company. Slightly different weight categories.
                  There are reviews of pilots acting on exercises against 22.
                  And yet there is no other information anyway.
                  Do you propose a priori to believe that ours is better?
                  Lockheed, again, has extensive experience in the creation and maintenance of stealth aircraft.
                  And if they lie, then what prevents the KLA from doing this? I am for a balanced approach.
                5. Ka-52
                  Ka-52 17 September 2019 11: 55 New
                  0
                  There are reviews of pilots acting on exercises against 22.

                  What does the pilot’s feedback and indicators on the target detection range? What is the relationship between them? Maybe I missed something and both aircraft (Su-57 and F-22/35) participated in battles against each other? belay
                  There is you, but there is a manufacturing company. Slightly different weight categories.

                  just the conclusion is not in favor of LM. So it’s violet to me, and Lockheed Martin still sell planes laughing
                  And yet there is no other information anyway.

                  in fact of the matter. What I always say to everyone: since there is no detailed information (see above about radar maps of circular reflection), then there is nothing to make people laugh when discussing a spherical horse in a vacuum!
                  Do you propose a priori to believe that ours is better?

                  Did I say that? I'm just trying to bring the fact that many sofa-expert "analytical" statements are nothing more than fiction obtained by finger scanning :))
                  And if they lie, then what prevents the KLA from doing this?

                  something I have not met the statement of the official representative of the UAC on the magnitude of the EPR Su-57. But in any case, stealth technology will not bring a win in aerial combat on its own. Because there is a complex of solutions and opportunities. How many copies, for example, break down in the range of a target’s destruction with explosives? Monstrous ranges of 100, 150 and even 200 km are written by "experts." Well, do you think this is reality?
                6. 3danimal
                  3danimal 17 September 2019 12: 56 New
                  0
                  About the information. On the sofa, it remains to operate only with the numbers voiced by the manufacturers.
                  From the KLA, data on the T-50 EPR of 0,1-0,4 sq m were announced, with the addition, "approximately like in the F-22."
                  Lockheed only named his parameters, without saying anything about the T-50.
                  But one can not ignore that more experience in the creation and operation of stealth aircraft, radar with AFAR, give advantages. The product is less “raw" and defects are removed faster.
                  The minimum EPR for both aircraft is strictly from the front, in the teaching staff. (This was voiced by both sides).
                  180km - this range is voiced for the latest modifications of the AIM-120, when firing at a non-maneuvering target. Against a fighter capable of maneuvering energetically, this distance is halved. However, maneuvers will be performed well in advance only if the pilot is aware of the attack. In the case of missiles with ARLGSN, the latter will notify themselves about 10-25 kilometers, leaving little time. The correcting impulses for autopilot rockets are very different from the powerful narrow beam of illumination.
                7. Constructor68
                  Constructor68 17 September 2019 16: 09 New
                  +1
                  About the information. On the sofa, it remains to operate only with the numbers voiced by the manufacturers.
                  From the KLA, data on the T-50 EPR of 0,1-0,4 sq m were announced, with the addition, "approximately like in the F-22."
                  Lockheed only named his parameters, without saying anything about the T-50.

                  Please leave this for discussion with other "experts". It seems to me that I have already spoken enough about this
                  But one can not ignore that more experience in the creation and operation of stealth aircraft, radar with AFAR, give advantages.

                  Yeah, radiophysics is already 80 years old as a science, the first experiments with reducing radar visibility were done by the Germans in the 40s, the Russian scientist became the founder of the method of edge waves in the physical theory of diffraction .... your passion for admiration for the Americans certainly touches
                  180km - this range is voiced for the latest modifications of the AIM-120, when firing at a non-maneuvering target. Against a fighter capable of maneuvering energetically, this distance is halved. However, maneuvers will be performed well in advance only if the pilot is aware of the attack. In the case of missiles with ARLGSN, the latter will notify themselves about 10-25 kilometers, leaving little time. The correcting impulses for autopilot rockets are very different from the powerful narrow beam of illumination.

                  I don’t even see the point of commenting. It already looks like religion. And religious views are not my eparchy :)
                8. 3danimal
                  3danimal 17 September 2019 18: 02 New
                  0
                  Give your arguments.
                  About the experience of operating time. Following your logic: ICE was created more than 100 years ago, Germans, Americans and Japanese, having more experience in the competitive market, are not the fact that cars are better than GAZ, Lada. Is that all right? Now tell me that, say, BMW sedans do not have better characteristics than Vesta, Grant, etc. We do not compare prices, since the prospective Buyer makes enough money to take the best option. (Analogy)
                  This is not worship, but consistency.
                  Having experience in production and operation provides benefits.
                9. Ka-52
                  Ka-52 18 September 2019 06: 28 New
                  0
                  Now tell me that, say, BMW sedans do not have better characteristics than Vesta, Grant, etc. We do not compare prices, since the prospective Buyer makes enough money to take the best option. (Analogy)

                  curve analogy, like all similar reasoning. For example: the Germans were the founders of anti-tank weapons. Throughout all time, they did not stop working on anti-tank systems. But suddenly one of the best developers of adjustable ammunition turned out to be .... Jews. About which 30 years ago, no one had ever heard. So do not blah blah blah about experience and so on.
                  180km - this range is voiced for the latest modifications of the AIM-120, when firing at a non-maneuvering target.

                  I’ve been writing to you for a week now that to appeal with advertising data is the height of stupidity, and you don’t give up. Are you a sane person? Before writing this nonsense (and any other) first imagine:
                  1. The altitude of the flight affects the range of the rocket. If both the carrier and the target fly at an altitude of 8-10km, then the range can be 100km. If the carrier and the target are at an altitude of 1-3 km - then the flight range will not exceed 30 km.
                  2. The range of the carrier and the target relative to each other affect the range. If the launch is carried out from the opposite perspectives, then the range of the likely defeat may be 100 km, if it is after - from a force of 40 km.
                  3. You already wrote about the maneuvering target.
                  However, maneuvers will be performed well in advance only if the pilot is aware of the attack. In the case of missiles with ARLGSN, the latter will notify themselves about 10-25 kilometers, leaving little time.

                  you have no idea how missile defense is being maneuvered. No one will twist the loop when the attacker and his rocket are within 50-60km. A plane will only lose energy. Missile maneuvering over the entire flight path of an attacking missile can be different. For example, if at the beginning of this flight it is purely trajectory (to carry out a maneuver to disrupt guidance, ore to the front with the approach to the ground) with jamming, then on the last 1/3 of the trajectory it can be active with the active use of information jamming and shooting dipoles.
                  The correcting impulses for autopilot rockets are very different from the powerful narrow beam of illumination

                  yeah, and just as easily clogged with directional interference
                10. 3danimal
                  3danimal 18 September 2019 08: 01 New
                  0
                  What is the guarantee that you will “see” these impulses in order to start trying to clog them? Why is this: in your reasoning there is a certain ease, such as one left. In reality, this never happens. Against serious equipment, trained pilots, "dumb" headquarters (we do not believe Zadornov), everything would be very difficult.
                  About anti-tank systems: the first time the Israelis got modern results.
                11. Ka-52
                  Ka-52 18 September 2019 10: 30 New
                  0
                  Why is this: in your reasoning there is a certain ease, such as one left. In reality, this never happens.

                  are you writing this to yourself? since this is just your dominant position: just shot and shot down. I have listed several factors that directly affect the likelihood of a missile crashing an aircraft. Not to mention the fact that the carrier can (and probably will) do so to stop supporting the guidance of the missile launched by it and begin the lapel maneuver to escape from the enemy’s retaliatory attack (A-Pole autonomy factor). And you are all one and therefore "180km, notice for 10km, impulses ..."

                  Having experience in production and operation provides benefits.

                  About anti-tank systems: the first time the Israelis got modern results.

                  that is, you make an exception to God's chosen ones. What a sequence
                12. 3danimal
                  3danimal 18 September 2019 12: 23 New
                  0
                  About Israel: I forgot to add “not” the first time. All through trial and error.
                13. 3danimal
                  3danimal 18 September 2019 12: 28 New
                  -1
                  I never wrote that a rocket with 180km. From 100-180km, AN / APG-77 (81) will notice the 57/35th, from 100 it will be able to attack. On the opposite courses (minimum EPR), there is a margin for maneuvers of the target.
                14. Ka-52
                  Ka-52 19 September 2019 12: 02 New
                  0
                  From 100-180km, AN / APG-77 (81) will notice the 57/35th, from 100 it will be able to attack. On the opposite courses (minimum EPR), there is a margin for maneuvers of the target.

                  delirium
                15. 3danimal
                  3danimal 19 September 2019 12: 32 New
                  0
                  These are excuses.
                  Will not notice? Or can't attack?
                16. Ka-52
                  Ka-52 20 September 2019 10: 08 New
                  0
                  These are excuses.

                  this is a statement of fact
                  Or can't attack?

                  as I understand it, you are not familiar with the concept of the allowed missile launch zone, the mismatch parameter, the resolution of the fighter’s radar for the delivery of reliable pre-launch missiles to the ARGS, the resolution of the missile at the ARGS at the stage of homing it to the EIA, and especially the MCC, for effective individual guidance of the missile system to a given target with TsU an air target, well and so.
                17. 3danimal
                  3danimal 20 September 2019 13: 07 New
                  0
                  You have now dumped a lot of terms, but did not answer the question.
                  At what distance does AN / APG-77 (81) detect 57/35 and at what distance can it attack?