Why in the case of the crash of the Boeing, Malaysia was on the side of Russia

The investigation into the crash of the Malaysian Boeing MH17 aircraft over the Donbass continues. Against the background of the anti-Russian position of the West, the position of Malaysia is very interesting: it was this country that crashed the plane, and now the Malaysian authorities openly sided with Russia. Let's try to figure out why Kuala Lumpur took such a position?

Crash of Malaysian Boeing

17 July 2014 year in the sky over the Donbass plane crash. The Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-200ER airliner followed the MH17 flight on the Amsterdam-Kuala Lumpur route, but 2 hours after 49 minutes after departure from Amsterdam airport exploded in the air. Parts of the aircraft fell in the areas of the settlements of Grabovo, Rassypnoye, Petropavlovka - in the territory controlled by the Donetsk People's Republic.

The crash killed all the people on board the ship - 283 passengers and 15 crew members. By the number of deaths, a plane crash in the sky over the Donbass became the largest in stories world aviation for the entire period after the terrorist attack of September 11, 2001. Almost immediately, it was possible to establish that the plane crash occurred as a result of an unidentified missile getting into the plane. In this regard, investigative measures began, the leadership of which was entrusted to the Netherlands.

As we know, the Netherlands is a member of NATO and one of the states of Western Europe with the most distinct anti-Russian position, closely connected with Great Britain and the USA. Therefore, it is not surprising that Dutch investigators almost immediately decided on the main version - the plane was hit by a missile fired from territory controlled by Donetsk militias. The missile, according to the official version, was fired from the Buk anti-aircraft missile system, which is in service with the Russian army.

That is, the Netherlands Security Council, which led the investigative actions, began to lead to accusations against Russia of involvement in the disaster. Naturally, the Western countries interested in attacks on Russia gladly picked up this version, which at the same time made it possible to remove suspicions from the Ukrainian side. Indeed, if it had been possible to establish that the Armed Forces of Ukraine were involved in the crash of the aircraft, then this would be a crushing blow to the image of Kiev in the eyes of the so-called "World public."

It was with the aim of promoting the “Russian” version of the crash of the Boeing that the authorities of the Netherlands and Ukraine created all conditions to prevent the Russian side from participating in the investigation of the incident. Interestingly, in fact, Malaysia was not allowed to the investigation, although the plane was not Dutch or Ukrainian, but Malaysian. And here the fun begins.

The plane is Malaysian, the bulk of the dead passengers and crew are citizens of Malaysia, the plane followed to Kuala Lumpur, but the Malaysian authorities were not allowed to investigate the disaster. And the reason for this was very compelling - unlike Ukraine, Australia or the Netherlands, Malaysia is not interested in denigrating Russia, since there are no problems in relations between our countries. And Malaysian investigators could start an objective investigation of what happened, which would reveal facts that are completely unpleasant for the West.

Malaysian authorities criticize investigation

Almost from the very beginning of the investigative actions, the Malaysian authorities were unhappy with the progress of the investigation. In Kuala Lumpur, it was considered that the investigation was excessively politicized and had as its main goal not to establish the true causes of the tragedy, but to draw evidence of the involvement of Russia and the Donetsk militia in this disaster. Thus, the Prime Minister of Malaysia, Mahathir Mohamad, made allegations of a politicized investigation. He is convinced that the United States, Australia and the Netherlands are not interested in establishing the true causes of the disaster and its real culprits.

They do not really look at the causes of the accident and who was responsible, but they have already decided that this should be Russia. We cannot accept this attitude

- emphasized the Malaysian prime minister.

Then, the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Malaysia, Sayfuddin Abdullah, called on the international community to abandon the unfounded accusations against Russia. the Malaysian side wonders why the West refused Malaysia - the country that owns the plane and the country of citizenship of the majority of those killed - to be admitted to the results of the investigation. This fact alone indicates that not everything is clean with the results of investigative measures of the Dutch special services.

Najib Razak, Prime Minister of Malaysia in 2009-2018

It is worth noting that the previous Prime Minister of Malaysia, Najib Razak, who headed the country's cabinet of ministers during the 2014 disaster, was also convinced that the West deliberately impeded the participation of Malaysia in investigating the circumstances of the tragedy. That is why Razak initiated a parallel investigation by the forces of the Malaysian secret services.

The amazing adventures of the Malaysian colonel in Ukraine

In a documentary film by the Dutch journalist Max van der Werff on the tragic story of the crash of the Boeing, Colonel Mohamad Sakri spoke over the Donbass. This officer led the operation of the National Security Council of Malaysia in the Donbass.

As soon as the plane crashed, Colonel Sakri received an order from the then Prime Minister of Malaysia, Najib Razak, to go with his subordinates - 11 military personnel and doctors - to Ukraine to clarify all the circumstances of the incident.

However, he had to come to the country incognito, as the Ukrainian authorities began to create all kinds of obstacles to an objective investigation. In particular, the Ukrainian authorities, with US support, tried to do everything possible so that the Boeing flight recorders did not fall into the hands of Malaysian operatives.

Colonel Mohamad Sakri - Investigation Team Leader

But Colonel Sakri managed to arrive at the scene earlier than the representatives of the Netherlands, Australia and Ukraine, who were not allowed to the crash site by the Donetsk militias. And only because of this, the "black boxes" of the deceased aircraft were at the disposal of the special services of Malaysia. But the adventures of the Malaysian colonel in Ukraine did not end on the receipt of flight recorders. He was visited by agents of the US Federal Bureau of Investigation, who tried to convince the officer to give them "black boxes".

Mohamad Sakri in the documentary also spoke about the fact that the authorities of Ukraine pressed him in every possible way. Then the OSCE Special Monitoring Mission also tried to get the coveted recorders, but it also received an official refusal from the Malaysian authorities. Despite pressure from the West, Malaysia managed to defend its independent position. By the way, unlike the Netherlands, Australia, Belgium and other countries involved in the investigation of the events in the Donbass, Malaysia can really be called an independent party - it is not bound by any obligations with the United States, does not have its interests in Eastern Europe, including and in Ukraine.

It is interesting that during the independent investigation, the Malaysian secret services analyzed the audio materials of dispatcher negotiations transmitted by Ukraine to the Netherlands and came to the conclusion that the recordings were subjected to serious editing. Malaysian investigators counted at least nine gluings - that is, some phrases were cut out, then the notes were glued together. Who and why did they need to do this? The answer is obvious - to those who want to put the blame for what happened on Russia and hide the true circumstances of the tragedy.

Why Malaysia and Russia became close in the investigation process

Knowing full well that it was not possible to organize a parallel investigation only on their own, the Malaysian authorities contacted Moscow. It is worth noting here that Malaysia and Russia have never been allies or close partners.

During the Cold War, Malaysia was one of the closest allies of Great Britain and the United States to counter the "communist threat" in Indochina and Southeast Asia. Nowadays, of course, the priorities of Kuala Lumpur's foreign policy have changed, but it cannot be said that there are especially close ties between our countries. And this circumstance confirms the desire of the Malaysian authorities to an objective investigation of all the circumstances of the crash.

The current Prime Minister of Malaysia, Mahathir Mohamad, is known as an authoritarian and tough politician. He is 92 years old, but despite his age, the master of Malaysian politics continues to pursue his course aimed not only at ensuring the country's economic prosperity, but also at preserving its national identity, countering Western influence and ensuring political sovereignty. Mahathir Mohamad is known for his criticism of globalism and global values, attacks on George Soros.

Mahathir Mohamad, Acting Prime Minister of Malaysia

Mahathir Mohamad is merciless with his opponents, striving to keep his country in the "iron gloves", but at the same time he is the unconditional patriot of Malaysia and sincerely wishes his country the very best. It was the patriotic feelings of Mahathir Mohamad that leaped after the West literally spat in the face of Kuala Lumpur, refusing to allow representatives of Malaysia to investigate the circumstances of the plane crash and, thereby, demonstrating to the whole world that Kuala Lumpur can be ignored. Such a spit Mahathir Mohamad is unable to forgive the West.

The Malaysian Prime Minister needed to restore his image of a tough and uncompromising politician. And in this situation, the only thing he could do was enter into negotiations with Russia to show the West that Malaysia, if they neglect its interests, is ready to act independently and easily find serious partners for an independent investigation.

It is worth noting that criminal proceedings were instituted against the former Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak. Formally - for corruption, in fact - for politics, since Razak provoked negative emotions among the American leadership. After all, he not only headed for cooperation with China and attracting Chinese investment in the Malaysian economy, but also took a very tough stance on the issue of investigating a plane crash in the Donbass.

It would seem, what does Razak and the USA have to do with it? Why do US law enforcement agencies find it possible to institute criminal proceedings against citizens of other states who have not committed crimes in the United States? But this looks ridiculous only from the point of view of international law, and in fact the Americans are guided by the same old and unkind colonial ideology.

To some extent, an independent investigation initiated by Malaysia is a protest against the neocolonialism of the United States and Western European countries. Indeed, attempts to resolve the issue behind the back of Malaysia are directly related to the general attitude of the West towards the countries of Asia, Africa, Latin America as non-independent entities, whose interests can be neglected in order to achieve their own goals.

Comments

[Strashila]

"But Colonel Sakri managed to arrive at the scene earlier than the representatives of the Netherlands, Australia and Ukraine, who were not allowed to the crash site by the Donetsk militias."

[Olgovich]

Quote: Strashila

"But Colonel Sakri managed to arrive at the scene earlier than the representatives of the Netherlands, Australia and Ukraine

But, in the end, the recorders ended up in the Netherlands. What they did to them, no one knows ....
Ator writes about

independent investigation launched by Malaysia

, a joint investigation with Russia. But SPECIFICALLY no alternative Dutch commission has been created.
WHY? Yes, even Russia alone could create this and officially and systematically critically examine the materials published by the Dutch. Could collect and publish YOUR materials, attract Malaysia, LDNR.

And then the Ministry of Foreign Affairs will answer, then the MoD, then Peskov, then Antei, and the system is not

[Amurets]

Indeed, if it had been possible to establish that the Armed Forces of Ukraine were involved in the crash of the aircraft, then this would be a crushing blow to the image of Kiev in the eyes of the so-called "World public."

The whole thing is sewn with "White Threads" and these scoundrels will accuse Russia even on the scaffold.

[Lipchanin]

Quote: Amurets

and these scoundrels even on the scaffold will blame Russia.

And further. In hell in a pan

[AnpeL]

For this hell will be for them to bite their criminal statements in their own language

[Lipchanin]

Quote: AnpeL

For this hell will be for them to bite their criminal statements in their own language

So I am talking about it.

[rotmistr60]

Americans, Ukrainians, Dutch, the OSCE Monitoring Commission are hell out of one snuff box, which is encrusted with terry Russophobia, outright lies and cynicism. But sooner or later, the real truth about the downed plane will still be known.

[Shuttle]

This is not just neocolonialism. This is fascism for export. Support for outright fascists in the United States is impossible, but in Ukraine please.
The similarity of Ukrainian cave Nazism and American elite fascism lies in the idea of ​​the superiority of one's own stratum over all others.

[Ros 56]

Not all states with low social responsibility such as Poles, tribaltes and Hohland - Banderlog and the Dutch who joined them - drug addicts.

[Zeev Zeev]

The Malaysian authorities openly sided with Russia, because the Prime Minister of Malaysia received a good kickback for the deal to exchange Malay palm oil for Russian fighters.
By the way, what side is Russia destroying the peaceful liner and killing 298 civilians? After all, Russian troops were not there, right? And in general, everything happened on the territory of Ukraine, and Russia does not intervene in the conflict in the Donbass, as the Russian media say.

[Lipchanin]

Quote: Zeev Zeev

By the way, what side is Russia destroying the peaceful liner and killing 298 civilians?

Unclear. For five years now, they want to prove that they have, but they cannot. Here the zashtatniks "have proof, but we will not show them to you." And why? But if Russia were involved, would they show?

After all, Russian troops were not there, right?

Even after Proshenko shook passport covers and a piece of iron from the bus, they did not appear there.

And in general, everything happened on the territory of Ukraine, and Russia does not intervene in the conflict in the Donbass, as the Russian media say.

And not just the media. The president says. Ordinary people here are talking.
But who was involved who proved? Even in both "Minsk" there is not a word about the involvement of Russia.
Remind who signed them?

[Avior]

Who! What are you talking about?
The first agreements were signed by officials of Zurabov, Kuchma and Tagliavini,

http://www.osce.org/ru/home/123258?download=true

the second was signed by the presidents of the Norman four; here they are with Lukashenko after signing

In both cases, Plotnitsky and Zakharchenko were still signed up as private individuals, and not as representatives of the republics.
What did you mean?

[Lipchanin]

Quote: Avior

What did you mean?

The fact that those four in the photo did not recognize the Russian Federation as a party to the conflict. Even beggar did not recognize.
So what kind of interference and involvement are we talking about?

[Avior]

If everything is as simple as you write.
There is no direct and unequivocal recognition of the parties to the conflict, but according to the text of the parties to the conflict, these are "Ukrainian troops" (note, it is the troops, not Ukraine as a state) and armed formations of separate regions ..., and not the LDN and the DPR as a territorial entity, but there are also foreign military formations in the text (mind you, not foreigners as separate participants, but foreign formations) that need to be withdrawn outside Ukraine.
There is also this, pay attention to the last paragraph.

President of the Russian Federation Vladimir Putin, President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko, President of the French Republic Francois Hollande and Chancellor of the Federal Republic of Germany Angela Merkel confirm full respect for the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine. They are firmly convinced that there is no alternative to an exclusively peaceful settlement. They are fully prepared to take any possible measures both individually and jointly for these purposes.

In this context, the leaders approve the package of measures to implement the Minsk Agreements, adopted and signed in Minsk on February 12, 2015 by all who also signed the Minsk Protocol of September 5, 2014 and the Minsk Memorandum of September 19, 2014. Leaders will contribute to this process and use their influence on the relevant parties to facilitate the implementation of this set of measures.

"to use their influence on the relevant parties to facilitate the implementation of this Package of Measures." - this is just used as a justification for one of the dirty tales addressed to Russia.
On the whole, the Minsk agreements were written too vaguely, which gives the possibility of a favorable interpretation for themselves, which the parties have been doing for many years

[Avior]

Sorry for this t9, my strength is no longer correct ....

[Lipchanin]

Quote: Avior

If everything is as simple as you write.

It's harder to put it.
Non-amateurs signed the DOCUMENT and non-amateurs approved it in the UN Security Council

but there are also foreign military formations in the text ( notice not foreigners as individual participants, namely foreign formations) that need to be taken outside Ukraine.

I noticed
Something the words "Russian" I did not see there
Maybe it's about the mattress troops?

Leaders will contribute to this process and use their influence on the relevant parties to facilitate the implementation of this set of measures.

Well, what impact did the beggar have

Francois Hollande, President of the French Republic, and Angela Merkel, Chancellor of the Federal Republic of Germany

Has he fulfilled at least one point?
He openly publicly said that he would not fulfill the agreement.

this is just being used as a justification for one of the obsinated ones addressed to Russia.

And why not to France and Germany? What did they do???

In general, the Minsk agreements are too vague,

The signatories did not notice, they did not notice in the Security Council ... And only you saw.
Well, once blurry then why Russia is "blurred", and specifically accused.
And further. I didn’t see the answer where Russia is indicated in the agreements as a party to the conflict

[Avior]

What makes you think you haven’t noticed what’s blurry?
Just the parties with clear language did not want to coordinate and sign, each pulled in his own direction.

[Lipchanin]

Where is it written that Russia is a party to the conflict?
Why are the Germans and French not fulfilling their part of the contract, but are they demanding from Russia?
Where does the agreement indicate that Russia has entered its troops and should withdraw them?

[Avior]

I wrote to you. there even Ukraine is not directly indicated as a party to the conflict, and the LPR and the DPR as well.
And in the wording, everyone is looking for what is beneficial to him

[Okolotochny]

And I do not understand, with every news about the lies of the collective West, Israeli citizens are actively excited. And actively false. Guys, like the news of Israel’s new vile strike, so you shout that there’s no other news? Why are you excited about Boeing? Is Israel in business?

[Meltikovskiy]

Quote: Okolotochny

And actively false. Guys, like the news of Israel’s new vile strike, so you shout that there’s no other news? Why are you excited about Boeing? Is Israel in business?

if you don’t know what to say and how to make excuses, blame the Jews. Very convenient position, Goebbels would approve of you

[Okolotochny]

Goebbels would be silent. My ancestors, specifically my two grandfathers, stopped the extermination of Jews. By the way, 6 million Jews died. - The Holocaust, responsibility for its denial, etc. About 27 million died of Soviet people. And there is nothing of the kind. Melitkovsky, be more modest. I drum your graters with the Arabs. And what .... do you comment heavily on events in Ukraine? Engage in Israel and Palestine. Yes, do not forget to return the Depressed Golan.

[Firelake]

Can you prove the opposite? Go to court. If not, then keep quiet and don't talk bullshit

[tracer]

They are still gone. And they will show off.

[Avior]

Unfortunately, the article article creates a false impression, including regarding the position of Malaysia and certain illusions in this matter.

most of the dead passengers and crew are Malaysian citizens, followed by a plane to Kuala Lum

The plane flew from Schiphol, and of the 298 dead, 192 were Dutch, 44 Malaysians, 27 Australians, 10 English .....
And here is the first problem. In the eyes of the whole world, the most interested in an objective investigation are just the relatives of the victims.
And unfortunately, just the relatives of the victims are uniquely anti-Russian.
How and why this happened, how and with what they were convinced of it, the question is separate, but the fact remains, their position is anti-Russian. They sued Putin and Russia personally, as if they were hindering the investigation.
And this applies not only to Europeans, but also to Malaysians, too. They fully agree with the results announced by the commission in the Netherlands, and have claims to the current government of Malaysia in relation to its position

NOK also criticized contradicting statements made by the government against the Joint Investigation Team (JIT).

statements made by Malaysian officials to said press conference are inconsistent with the position taken by Mohamed Hanafiah.

https://www.thestar.com.my/news/nation/2019/07/12/mh17-nextofkin-say-msias-stand-on-investigation-confusing-demand-briefing/
And here there is confirmation of another problem.
From Malaysia, the government did not officially participate in the investigation (whose position changed in 2018 after the election of a new prime minister, he is 93 years old), but the prosecutor general’s office, and the head of a group of investigators, the deputy prosecutor general of Malaysia, does not object to the conclusions of the commission, as was emphasized in a statement by relatives of the injured Malaysians in link above.
Here he is sitting with everyone on June 19, 2019


Of course, this situation is detrimental to the international image of Russia, and the key problem is the frank failure to work with the relatives of the victims. All these investigations by the Dutch in the world would be looked at completely differently, if relatives were against the results of the investigation, this should be the focus of efforts in the first place.

[Okolotochny]

outright failure to work with relatives of victims

So give your recipe for "successful" work with the relatives of the victims? There's no such thing. All leading media outlets are strictly anti-Russian. The comments of your compatriots are an example of this. Beat your forehead against the wall? Or do you offer to kneel down?

[meandr51]

It is useless to "work with relatives." They understand that Ukraine and the United States will not compensate them for anything. And they promised to force Russia to pay compensation. It is now unprofitable for Russia to openly accuse the United States of organizing this terrorist act, although the material is being collected. So the passive position of the Russian Federation is understandable.
It will be replaced only when the West crosses the red line and the beginning of direct aggression directly against the Russian Federation. For example, an attempt to capture Crimea by Ukraine with the support of NATO.

[Klim chugunkin]

Responsibility in any case lies with the Ukrainian side, because they were obliged to close the airspace over the combat zone, as it is prescribed in international law.

[Antares]

Quote: Klim Chugunkin

Responsibility in any case lies with the Ukrainian side because they were obliged to close the airspace over the war zone as it is prescribed in international law.

this is done in part, Ukraine’s wines are also there, they didn’t intend to use not MANPADS, but SAMs, and here the authorized levels of 10 thousand m
lower echelons on the recommendation of ICAO were closed.
The Ukrainian authorities closed the airspace above the conflict zone for civil aviation flights from July 1 to the FL260 level (7900 meters), and from July 14 to the FL320 level (9750 meters). The European Organization for the Safety of Air Navigation indicates that on the route of the liner the space was closed by the Ukrainian authorities to FL320, and on the FL330 (10 meters), on which the plane was traveling, flights were allowed
Boeing became the only plane shot down at a level of 10 thousand meters
The flight to the border with Ukraine took place at FL310 (9450 meters), then at FL330 (10 050 meters). At 12:53, at the entrance to the area of ​​responsibility of the Dnepropetrovsk FIR, the plane, according to the flight plan, was supposed to rise to the FL350 level (10 meters), but responded negatively to the air traffic controller’s request for a lift, remaining on the FL650 level, as a result, the dispatcher FL330 echelon was lifted by another plane. Flight level FL350, on which the flight MH330 was flying, over the territory of Ukraine was open for international transit flights.

[Klim chugunkin]

Quote: Antares

this is partially done, Ukraine’s fault is also there-did not intend to use not MANPADS, but SAM-and here the permitted levels of 10 thousand m + did not save
lower echelons on ICAO recommendation were closed

According to the International Investigation Commission, the Ukrainian Air Force announced the loss of several aircraft at high altitudes shortly before the tragedy with MH17. This fact is presented as evidence of the presence of the Russian Buk complex in the war zone. Consequently, the Ukrainian military could not know that the medium-range air defense systems were working against them. The question remains open - why did the Ukrainian side not completely close the airspace over the conflict zone?

[Avior]

Maybe it’s open, only for a long time there are justifications of Ukraine in this matter, which boil down to the fact that
1. Not a single civilian plane was shot down before, and there have been no such attempts.
2. Militias never threatened to bring down civilian aircraft
3. At such high altitudes, the planes did not shoot down, the heights remained open only above 10 km, closed below
4 . There is no clear established tradition, much less the rule to completely cover the sky over zones of civil conflicts.
I understand that there can be objections to this position, and somewhere there seemed to be appeals to the court, but it doesn’t even attract negligence, the maximum is an erroneous decision, if they admit their guilt and will be awarded compensation.

[Klim chugunkin]

The Ukrainians claim that they did not know about the presence of air defense systems in the war zone, and according to the international commission, before the Boeing was shot down, the Ukrainians announced the loss of several aircraft at high altitudes. It turns out that one of them is lying, is it logical?

[Avior]

I wrote above in detail there.
The position of Ukraine is reduced to the fact that they believed that there is no real threat at altitudes below 10 km for civilians.
Even if they are sued, the charge is relatively not very serious.

[Klim chugunkin]

My main point, you ignored for some reason. Namely, data on Ukrainian aircraft that were lost at altitudes inaccessible to MANPADS shortly before the Boeing was shot down.

To summarize - ignorance of laws (in this case, international air traffic regulations) does not relieve responsibility. The main culprit of the tragedy is the Ukrainian authorities, which did not close air traffic over the war zone. The conclusion is obvious.

[Avior]

If you had thrown links to confirm your words, who was there and what they said, I would by no means ignore anything. It is especially interesting about the international laws on the prohibition of flights.
As for the lies of Ukraine ....
in any case, Ukraine will say in court that it was certain that the militia would not bring down civilians, and such air defense systems as Buk have the ability to distinguish between a civilian flying with a transponder and defendants, from a military one.
And the maximum accusation of taking insufficient measures, not even negligence, measures were taken.

[Klim chugunkin]

At 16:45 o rewind. Three days before MH17, Ukrainians lost the An-26 at an altitude of 6500 m.

[Siberian54]

"lost at heights inaccessible to man-portable missile systems." This is precisely what adds "distrust" to all further bacchanalia and makes one think about a terrorist act being prepared in advance by the outskirts.

[Antares]

Quote: Klim Chugunkin

According to the International Investigation Commission, the Ukrainian Air Force announced the loss of several aircraft at high altitudes shortly before the tragedy with MH17. This fact is presented as evidence of the presence of the Russian Buk complex in the war zone.

heights of 6500. The border of MANPADS and SAMs of small radius. (just those that were captured)
ban FL260 (7900 meters)

Quote: Klim Chugunkin

This fact is presented as evidence of the presence of the Russian Buk complex in the war zone

made secure
to FL320 (9750 meters)
however, the use of such a powerful complex, no one could have imagined. These are owned by trained crews / countries

[Klim chugunkin]

Ukraine lost several aircraft from MANPADS, and then several more aircraft at altitudes inaccessible to MANPADS, after which a Boeing was shot down. In short, I will try to find a video presentation of the results of the investigation and a slide where the data on the losses of the Ukrainian Air Force and the altitudes at which the planes were hit were presented ...

[Avior]

With this it is clear, I agree with you without links.
They shot down above the MANPADS, but at a height of 10 - not once.
But no one was shooting at civilians, there were no threats or attempts.
From what I read, there are no clear rules for closing flights completely in such conflicts.

[Klim chugunkin]

Unwind at 16:45. July 14, they lost the An-26. 6500 m is not MANPADS. This is at least twice as high as the ceiling for MANPADS.

[Lipchanin]

Is this all written to?
Someone will check what is now

from July 1 to the FL260 level (7900 meters), and from July 14 to the FL320 level (9750 meters).

FL320, and on the echelon FL330 (10 050 meters),

passed at FL310 (9450 meters), then at FL330 (10 050 meters).

Here is the most important thing to write

the plane, according to the flight plan, was supposed to rise to FL350 (10 650 meters), but negatively responded to the air traffic controller’s request for a lift, staying on FL330,

And there is an answer to this in the article

It is interesting that during the independent investigation, the Malaysian intelligence services analyzed the audio materials of dispatcher negotiations transmitted by Ukraine to the Netherlands and came to the conclusion that the recordings were heavily edited. Malaysian investigators counted at least nine gluings - that is, some phrases were cut out, then the notes were glued together.

So don't talk about "echelons"

[Antares]

Quote: Lipchanin

Someone will check what is now

Do you trust ICAO? So, Ukraine submitted information about bans there.

Quote: Lipchanin

Here is the most important thing to write

do you know the difference in height in echelons? 600 meters! Above the border of 10 thousand
For Buk air defense systems, the difference of 600 meters at this level is not significant.

Quote: Lipchanin

It is interesting that during the independent investigation, the Malaysian secret services analyzed the audio materials of dispatcher negotiations transmitted by Ukraine to the Netherlands and came to the conclusion that the recordings were subjected to serious editing. Malaysian investigators counted at least nine gluings - that is, some phrases were cut out, then the notes were glued together.

Well, the author did not show the source.
The commission from the Netherlands did not reveal the fact of gluing, and how do you find them if they are duplicated 3 times! Crates and the Rostov center. You can fake your own, but there are two more sources. The forgery will be revealed immediately.
And by the way, the militias handed over the black boxes to the Malaysian and he immediately handed them over to the commission.
I imagine if at first the Malaysians twisted them and then transferred them .. However, there are only three components
1-black boxes
2-records of the Dnepr dispatchers
3-records of Rostov
They match.
The Netherlands did not reveal the fact of gluing or forgery.

Quote: Lipchanin

So don't talk about "echelons"

forgive who is more authoritative? The author of the article with a "gag" or the conclusions of the commission where does Malaysia itself belong?

[Lipchanin]

Quote: Antares

Do you trust ICAO?

I trust them.
I'm talking about something else. Why are these here

FL320 (9750 meters)

And the similar nuances to them?
How can they be checked here?
Give importance to your words?
ONE evidence is enough for me.
The Americans never presented evidence of Russia's guilt.
They didn’t understand the "case", they immediately accused me. And here they are silent for the fifth year.
Not weird?
And why are you silent that the rocket of which the Boeing was shot down was outskirts? After all, documented

[Antares]

Quote: Lipchanin

I trust them.
I'm talking about something else. Why are these here
FL320 (9750 meters)

And the similar nuances to them?

Sorry, but I forgot that in VO, where once, if you believe the legends --- you had to be prepared, with numbers, with links, a scientific base and more ... that it doesn’t matter.
All the nuances are important. Bans of echelons were introduced by Ukraine, and 17 hours before the accident, the Russian Federation introduced flight prohibitions. It is not so difficult to understand the names of echelons, especially since I attributed what height they mean. You can compare with the downed An at 6500 (the maximum height of the defeat of combat aircraft) and other MANPADS that were downed. They are below the echelon. But Ukraine has been reinsured for a week from the echelon of MANPADS to the echelons of more serious air defense systems. That's the whole nuance!

Quote: Lipchanin

ONE evidence is enough for me.
The Americans never presented evidence of Russia's guilt

What should they provide? All that they provide as proof of guilt - the Russian Federation recognizes not as proof of guilt, but as a provocation! Any materials will be blamed for fake.
All that is said will be interpreted as the West West wants to shift the blame.
In general, everything that the Americans did not provide will not be enough for the Russian Federation.
for example

The State Department speaker also recalled that the Investigative Group, which includes the Netherlands, Australia, Belgium, Malaysia and Ukraine "has been working long and hard to bring those responsible to justice," and in May 2018 evidence was presented that the rocket launcher, from which the plane was shot down, was brought from Russia.
"The MH17 aircraft was shot down by a Russian-owned Buk surface-to-air missile fired from territory in eastern Ukraine controlled by Russia and controlled by Russia," Ortagus said.

it’s not enough. It will be the same with any evidence presented to the Russian Federation.

Quote: Lipchanin

And why are you silent that the rocket of which the Boeing was shot down was outskirts? After all, documented

there are more questions than answers to this "proof". (especially the number of the missile and the number of the main solid rocket motor corps.)

JIT investigators do not consider the evidence that the missile that shot down the Malaysian Boeing was in service with the Ukrainian armed forces. This was stated by the Dutch prosecutor Fred Westerbeck. Journalists asked him why the investigation is sure that the rocket was Russian, although there are documents that the Buk has long been in service with the Ukrainian part.
“We saw these materials, but we believe that they are not convincing on this point. We conducted an investigation, and we cannot come to this conclusion on the basis of these documents, ”said Westerbeck

documents of the Ternopol part were also transferred to the commission. Yes, and actually anything to ask the Dutch was provided.

[Siberian54]

But there is a slight difference of about a second in the recording duration between two drawers on the same power cable.

[rocket757]

What can I say, discuss?
The case will not go either here or here, because the parties have different interests and there will simply not be an objective investigation!

[andrewkor]

One of the signs of the rapprochement of the positions of Russia and Malaysia in the field of military-technical cooperation is the planned deal on the MiG-29 and MiG-35 and other modern technology. As if in gratitude for the position of Malaysia on the unfortunate Boeing.

[meandr51]

That is, if not for the "gratitude", you would not have sold? Far-fetched.

[dzvero]

I remember when the Ukrainian air defense shot down the Tu-154, the Americans immediately said where the missile was launched from. Those. they have means of objective control. And with Boeing, silence - "we have them, but we will not show you because it is secret." One more reason to consider the case to be sewn with white thread.

[Avior]

For this, then no means of objective control were needed.
Great air defense exercises were held nearby and they were not a secret for the Americans.

[dzvero]

It's not a matter of secrets - just the first about the rocket and whose it was reported by the Americans. Ukrainians still rebelled, and Russian sources did not post details. I mean, the Americans have the possibility of objective control, but this time they are in no hurry to upload data.

[Avior]

That is precisely why they informed that they knew who there would be shooting in advance, and they informed precisely with reference to the exercises, and not to the control data.

[Borz]

I am sure that the results of the investigation will be disclosed and published. It seems that the truth will not really surprise us, because we know who and with whose filing brought down the Boeing. Where did the air traffic controller go from the tower? Why is the investigation in the West conducted by anyone, but not specialized experts?

[Avior]

The Dutch are determined to disclose evidence only in court.
And quite professional investigators conduct business.

[Borz]

The fact is that some time ago I came across an article where the "professionals" who were investigating this case were named.
But I will not argue with you, perhaps you know better.

[Okolotochny]

quite a professional investigator.

Oh, is it? Remember, PROFESSIONAL INVESTIGATORS will NEVER neglect ANY data on a case. Trust me as a professional. Are the Almaz-Antey data included in the case file? Are the RF control data included? Do you all work so "professionally" in the West?

[New Year day]

how the Russian media coverage and the position of the Russian Federation on this tragedy changed:
1. July 17, 2014 at 19 hours Moscow time news TV channel LifeNews reported "new victory for Donetsk militias"who allegedly managed to knock out another transport aircraft An-26 of the Ukrainian Air Force. This time around the town of Torez.
"Experts assure that it is impossible to shoot down the liner with the means that are at the disposal of the rebels," the Vremya correspondent said on Channel One.

2. July 17 the Russian-language website of the RT channel published a tweet from the "Spanish dispatcher" in Kiev that a few minutes before the crash of a Boeing, Ukrainian military aircraft were seen next to him.
The message was soon picked up by the Russia-24 TV channel, as well as by a number of Internet publications. Soon, the “dispatcher's” Twitter account was declared fake and blocked.

3. The newspaper "Moskovsky Komsomolets" reported with reference to "eyewitnesses" and one of the then separatist leaders Igor Strelkov that it is possible that some Boeing passengers were dead before the fall.
A few days later, this version went by the wayside, giving way to official statements by the Russian Ministry of Defense.

4. On July 21, Russian state-owned television channels announced that, according to the Russian military, a group of Ukrainian anti-aircraft complexes "Buk" on the eve of the tragedy appeared in the Donetsk region and soon after it disappeared.
On the same day the correspondent of the TV channel "Russia" criticized the opinion of experts, reminding once again that the Ukrainian military allegedly had "Buki" at its disposal.

5.in November of the same year, the version about the Ukrainian "Buk" was unexpectedly replaced by a new one - about an air-to-air missile.

The host of the program "However" Mikhail Leontyev: "At the disposal of Channel One was a sensational picture, presumably taken by a foreign spy satellite in the last seconds of the flight of the Malaysian Boeing over Ukraine." In the photo, the presenter noted, "the missile launch from under the left wing of the" MiG-29 fighter "is clearly visible right into the cockpit."
“In short, there was most likely no Buk,” he concluded.

In the evening of the same day, a similar story with "photographic evidence" of the destruction of the aircraft by a fighter appeared on the air of the Rossiya TV channel. On the same day, the popular Russian photoblogger Ilya Varlamov discovered signs of falsification of satellite frames.

6. After the loud exposure of the fake photo, the version of the fighter again began to be actively discussed in the Russian media at the end of 2014.
Publication in the newspaper "Komsomolskaya Pravda" on December 22. As the publication reported, journalists “we found a witness who claims that the Malaysian Boeing was shot down by a Ukrainian Su-25 attack aircraft.
Soon this issue was picked up by online publications, major television channels and even the Investigative Committee of Russia.
In early June 2015, the "secret witness" reappeared in the headlines of the state media. "The investigation into the Boeing crash in the Donetsk region is progressing noticeably. And today the Investigative Committee of Russia named the name of the main witness," Channel One said on June 3. According to journalists, it turned out to be a former Ukrainian serviceman Yevgeny Agapov.

7. July 17, 2014 a bomb exploded on board the Boeing. "I am practically sure that the plane was destroyed from the inside, and it was a special operation," Sergei Sokolov, an expert at the federal information center "Analytics and Security", said on the air of the TV channel at the time.


8. According to the Ministry of Defense, Rostov radar did not detect a missile fired at a Boeing from separatist territory.

Question: if everything is clear to us, how can we explain the constantly changing opinion of our press and authorities?

[Prutkov]

I hope that you have heard about the "working versions of the investigation." The excerpts you specified are just that. Moreover, they do not strongly contradict each other. The only thing is that the version with a bomb on board stands out a little. But any catastrophe is now being studied for the possibility of a terrorist attack. On the downed An-26. If it really (I emphasize - really) was shot down at an altitude of over 6000 m, then ALL trains had to be closed. The presence of military aircraft near Boeing does not contradict the version of the destruction of the aircraft from the air defense system. On the contrary, it indicates that the plane was shot down on purpose, because The radar provides information only about the azimuth and distance of the LTA relative to the radar itself. All other data - direction of movement, height, real position in three-dimensional space must be calculated. And if we take into account that the object can constantly move in all directions, then real objective information about the object can be obtained only from another plane flying along a parallel route. This is especially important if it is necessary for the object to fall in a strictly defined area. The Dutch investigation never gave an answer to the question why the pilots did not see and did not react, at least with isolated exclamations, to the rocket approaching them, which, according to the investigators, was launched to meet the plane and exploded in front of the cockpit. This could happen if the cockpit had already been hit and the pilots were already dead. The same applies to passengers, because at an altitude of 10000m, they died immediately after the plane was depressurized. Therefore, already dead bodies fell to the ground. What then are the contradictions?

[Ka-52]

Question: if everything is clear to us, how can we explain the constantly changing opinion of our press and authorities?

and what did you see with your conspiracy theory? A changing press opinion? Wow, what nonsense. If we recall any tragedies, the non-stop coverage of them by the media has always been like a pogvorka "I hear a ringing - I don't know where it is." This was the case with Nord-Ost and Winter Cherry, etc.

[meandr51]

This is just the easiest way. And it looks like a spontaneous investigation by uncomplicated people from different ends. For the Russian Federation, this was a surprise, hence the many versions. As always, by the way, it happens at the beginning of any investigation. In addition, do not seriously take anyone's media.

[shinobi]

The Malaysians are great. It's time for our politicians to find their eggs.
PS: It is worth restoring S.M.E.R.SH and the practice of overseas liquidation of especially distinguished politicians and just criminals. We are blamed for this and that, albeit not in vain.

[Avior]

And who do you propose to bang?
Trump? Merkel? Poroshenko? Zelensky?
It will bring nothing but problems.

[shinobi]

I beg you Porthos! Well, who removes the talking heads? No. There is a lot of work for intelligence and detectives. You need to remove real figures, but they don't shine as usual. I have a good example from my own life. Was in our city one food company. In less than 5 years, it took over all the network and retail trade in the city, began to make its way to the regional center. Competitors removed only one person (the kingdom of heaven was to him, he was a good man), furnishing it as a street excesses, and lilies of the valley. There is no more company, crumbled before our eyes in 1,5 years. Here and here it is necessary to calculate them, the real rulers from the shadows. To organize heart attacks, crashes of yachts and planes, road accidents and other "accidents". As one character said, One a politician killed in time can save millions of lives.

[Avior]

Look how much the stench rose because of the useless Skripal.
Can you imagine what offers you?
Not to mention the double-edged sword ....

[shinobi]

The Skripals case is a complete mess, and everyone knows this, even the customers of this mess themselves. Too explicit and rude setup from the CIA, they firmly believe that the American man in the street will eat the rest of the world. By the way, poisons are just a favorite feature of the CIA, like love. blame others for their mistakes. Well, our SVR does not work so rudely. Ours are more specialized in "death by illness" and accidents. In rare cases, "disappearance" is when everything happens spontaneously and there was no time to prepare for liquidation. Such cases are very rare and then they sometimes come out, also extremely rarely. Actually, their specialists from MI5 talk about this, and they know what they are talking about. Suffice it to recall their graceful work to eliminate Lady Diana. Everyone knows who worked and who the customer, but go prove it. Berezovsky worked a little more roughly, but the principle is the same. To understand how our specialists worked before, pay attention to the sudden death of high-ranking officials before Andropov came to power. It really did not help him, but this is already a friend th history.So, with competent work, there will be no special stench, no more than it already is. Although some characters should be publicly finished. And it would be unambiguously clear for what. These are those who take children hostage, or call for an attack on them. Various kinds of accomplices of their activity. Well, they followed the general principle.

[Minato2020]

Quote: shinobi

... To understand how our specialists used to work, pay attention to the sudden death of high-ranking officials before Andropov came to power. This really helped him a little, but that's another story ...

Maybe you don’t need to complicate and return article 58?
The show trials live on the CTC will surely look with no less interest than the trial of Berezovsky against Abramovich in the London court.
http://www.hrono.ru/dokum/1938buharin/vec12-5-38-1.php#jag

[shinobi]

58th, so to speak, for domestic consumption. But yes, the idea is good.

[meandr51]

That is right. Here you need to choose a moment ...

[Pavel57]

I do not understand Russia's position, it is somehow passive. We do not have a record of the dispatcher's conversations and pictures from our satellites? It’s good that the Dutch have been fooling around with the missile number, otherwise all the experiments with the Almaz-Antey missile detonation, the contradictory arguments about the dispatcher, the Su-25 pilot, the fake video materials are more interesting to experts, and may be ignored in court.

[Karislav]

where did you go? Missiles was sold to Ukrainians by Ukrainians, then ours squeezed out beeches with missiles near Gori ... everything is simple

[Pavel57]

This is your version. No one, neither Georgia, nor Ukraine voiced it.

[Mikhail Malakhov]

Ukraine and Georgia officially stated this?

[Alien From]

Mattress ears in this case openly stick out from around the corner. The dead are a pity.

[antivirus]

again, not disclosed, but a lot about friendship.
IT WAS AND HAVE BEEN DONE - TORNED THE UHEARIA FROM RUSSIA. THEN MONEY WILL BE FOLLOWED AND EUROPEAN ASSOCIATION WILL BE INTRODUCED.
by 2030, they recognize that they have "knocked down kokhly" and coal, metallurgy and honey, nursing sisters will already work for Europe. air and space factories will be closed.
that's about this choice is not said

[dgonni]

The author is not very bothered by distorting the facts!
The first (the plane is Malaysian, the bulk of the dead passengers and crew are citizens of Malaysia), the statement does not correspond to the actual state of affairs! Citizens of Malaysia together with crew members killed 44 people, citizens of the Netherlands 192!
The second! On July 23, 2014, Ukraine transferred to the Netherlands Security Council (DSB) the authority to technically investigate the causes of the disaster in accordance with Annex 13 to the ICAO Convention [
And the third! (The investigation was facilitated by experts from Australia (ATSB [d]), France (BEA), Germany (BFU [d]), Indonesia (KNKT), Italy (ANSV [d]), Malaysia (DCA [d]), Russia ( Rosaviation), Interstate Aviation Committee (IAC), Ukraine (National Bureau of Accident Investigation), United Kingdom (AAIB [d]), United States (NTSB) and European Aviation Safety Agency.)
such articles are reminiscent of the tales of the manager Carlos and eyewitnesses who saw how a Boeing shot down the Su-25 first, and then it seemed like an instant-29. Even the picture on TV showed what was done in Photoshop.

[shinobi]

And this somehow changes the essence of the fact that they shot down kakly, not the first time by the way, but the arrows were transferred to Russia?

[Ehanatone]

"Experts from Australia (ATSB [d]), France (BEA), Germany (BFU [d]), Indonesia (KNKT), Italy (ANSV [d]), Malaysia (DCA [d]), Russia ( Federal Air Transport Agency) "
You too distort Johnny, which is apparently characteristic of all Johnny, in any part of the ocean:
they did not allow Russia to investigate, and there is no desire to even talk about the very course of this "investigation" - the mere fact that Russia was declared guilty of shooting down almost the next day speaks of the value and impartiality of this "investigation" ...

[Prutkov]

Quote: Zeev Zeev

By the way, what side is Russia destroying the peaceful liner and killing 298 civilians? After all, Russian troops were not there, right? And in general, everything happened on the territory of Ukraine, and Russia does not intervene in the conflict in the Donbass, as the Russian media say.

Russia was accused of destroying the plane the very next day, failing to conduct an investigation.

Quote: Zeev Zeev

After all, Russian troops were not there, right? And in general, everything happened on the territory of Ukraine, and Russia does not intervene in the conflict in the Donbass, as the Russian media say.

Is there an internationally accepted state border of Ukraine? Are there many photos of the presence of the Russian army in Ukraine? What does it mean not to interfere? And the humanitarian convoys to the population of Donbass? In general, is it possible to consider Ukraine from the period 1991 to 2014 and Ukraine after 2014 if the Constitution was changed after 2014, were all the declarations and memorandums adopted in 1991 upon declaration of independence rejected?

[Antares]

Quote: Rods

Is there an internationally accepted state border of Ukraine?

yes, there’s even an agreement with the Russian Federation about it (Russian-Ukrainian), and even Krym was present

Quote: Rods

A humanitarian convoys to the population of Donbass

Ukrainian, Russian, OSCE and EU ..

Quote: Rods

In general, is it possible to consider Ukraine from 1991 to 2014 and Ukraine after 2014 to be one and the same state?

same. The debt of the Russian Federation was presented to this Ukraine and not another. Still suing so far.

Quote: Rods

if the Constitution was changed after 2014

Parliament, with 386 votes in favor, adopted the Law of Ukraine "On the Renewal of Certain Provisions of the Constitution of Ukraine" dated February 21, 2014.
This law restored the effect of the norms of the Constitution of Ukraine in the wording of the Law of Ukraine "On Amendments to the Constitution of Ukraine" No. 2222-IV dated December 8, 2004. Thus, the powers of the President of Ukraine were determined in the wording of this law, that is, by its decision, the Verkhovna Rada returned the version of the 2004 Constitution into force.
They returned the old constitution and the difference was only about the powers of the president!

Quote: Rods

if the Constitution was changed after 2014, were all declarations and memorandums adopted in 1991 rejected when independence was rejected?

only applies to agreements with the Russian Federation in various fields. (since fighting is with it) But not borders. Yes, and many even operate with the Russian Federation. Even PF communicate and transfer criminals. Even examined Satan .. YaT and YaS transmit so far!
What declarations were rejected immediately after 2014? What are the memoranda?
Hour not Budapest?

[Al Asad]

Most of all, the tweet exactly one month before the tragedy amazes me. Someone clearly knew about this.
https://www.twitter.com/vesti_kpss/status/478926313831792640

[Karislav]

yeah, already the manager was Carlos .. know

[Doliva63]

Quote: shinobi

The Malaysians are great. It's time for our politicians to find their eggs.
PS: It is worth restoring S.M.E.R.SH and the practice of overseas liquidation of especially distinguished politicians and just criminals. We are blamed for this and that, albeit not in vain.

Gee! SMERSH to begin with your politicians will tear eggs. You forgot that he was the brainchild of the Union, and not cap.countries.

[Ehanatone]

Nonsense:
A Malaysian plane, shot down over the Donbas, and here there are some germs, such as Holland, Hohland, and ... Reny knows which Australia or Burkina Faso, ....
And at the same time, all kinds of galadriels and other shining castles on the hills of various poshiby and sizes are constantly being preoccupied with everything ...!
They would have figured out, for a start, in their September affairs, in the murders of police officers connected with an irresponsible Clintonch, and for decency, they would have found, after 60 years, who nevertheless shot their president ....

[Karislav]

and the Russian Federation, and here ?? the plane is not ours. the territory is not ours ..RF and then ?? on thief and hat?

[kig]

Why did you decide that Malaysia was on the side of Russia? She is on her own side.
It reads:
The 93-year-old Malaysian leader went on to demand proof of Russian guilt, insisting "so far, there is no proof, only hearsay". When asked if his reaction had anything to do with sales of Malaysian palm oil, he said no. Palm oil is key to Malaysia's economy, for jobs and exports. But earlier this year the European Commission recommended the phasing out of palm oil for use in biofuels for transport by 2030, deciding that palm oil production caused excessive deforestation. Malaysia has since announced it is keen to trade its palm oil in return for military equipment such as fighter jets to replace its aging Russian-made fleet. Malaysian reports have recently quoted Russian officials as offering to increase palm oil purchases in return for a military deal.

[Minato2020]

Malaysia does not only sell palm oil.
Concerning

... But earlier this year, the European Commission recommended abandoning palm oil for use in biofuels for transportation by 2030, deciding that palm oil production caused excessive deforestation ...

it was recently recommended that the planet abandon the use of freon, such as freon destroys the ozone layer.
Let the European Commission recommend Ukraine to mine shale gas from its ideas, the development of which destroys the environment.

[kig]

The investigation has been going on for 5 years, and everything was fine with Malaysia. But then a new prime minister came, and it turned out that everything was wrong in the investigation. Conclusion: something does not suit the prime minister personally. Palm oil as a version is quite suitable, although it does not sound serious - think of it, oil, and even palm.

[iouris]

Grandfather threw a grenade out the window: grandfather is old - he does not care.
No one is considering a version like a bomb blast on board. But in vain. The Poles are still looking for traces of explosives.