Is it enough to evaluate modern tanks by firepower, security and mobility?

152
The tank is a universal combat vehicle of the battlefield and is designed to conduct both independent actions to develop breakthroughs of the enemy’s defense, operations on the operational and strategic environment and the defeat of the enemy’s military groupings and operations in its rear areas, and for use as a means of fire support for infantry, destruction of objects military infrastructure suppression tanks, armored targets, anti-tank weapons and enemy defense units. The fight against tanks and well-fortified long-term enemy reference points is not assigned to tanks, but to anti-tank artillery, MLRS and aviation.





The set of targets for the tank is very wide and for their destruction, a cannon with a wide range of ammunition is used as the main weapon, which basically determines the firepower of the tank. The main characteristics of the tank are firepower, security and mobility, and when creating a machine it is always a search for a compromise between them, since strengthening some of them, as a rule, leads to a decrease in others.

With the development of technology, technology and the experience of using tanks in real military conflicts at the present stage, characterizing a tank with only firepower, security and mobility is no longer enough. One of the significant characteristics is the controllability of the tank as part of the corresponding level of military command.

A tank as an independent combat unit, except in exceptional cases, is practically not used. As a combat unit, it is used in a group of tactical units (platoon, company battalion) or at higher levels of military command, in which the commander of the corresponding tactical level should be integrated. That is, the tank should be able to carry out the assigned task as part of the forces taking part in a specific operation not as a separate unit, but as part of the combat assets of the battlefield, connected together as a whole.

Consider which combination of basic characteristics of the tank may be the most acceptable.

Firepower


A cannon is used as the main weapon of the tank. For Soviet and Russian tanks - this is an 125-mm gun, for most tanks of the West - an 120-mm. Of course, the natural desire to have a gun with a higher caliber in the tank was carried out in this direction, and work is underway to install 152-mm guns in the tank. How justified is it and how important is it for a tank to increase its firepower due to a more powerful gun caliber?

For the tank gun, four types of ammunition are used: BPS, OFS, KMS and TOURS. Moreover, for each type of ammunition the requirements are fundamentally different. For BPS, the maximum initial velocity of the projectile is required, for OFS, KMS and TURS, the mass of the active substance and the damaging elements in the projectile, that is, the caliber of the gun, is more significant.

The kinetic energy of the projectile is determined by its mass (caliber) and initial velocity, while the second parameter is much more significant, it is calculated based on the square of the speed. That is, to achieve greater efficiency, it is advisable to increase not so much the mass (caliber) as to increase the velocity of the projectile.

Of course, the caliber also affects the speed (more charge mass), but there are other more effective ways to increase the speed (quality and composition of gunpowder, the design of the gun and the projectile, other physical principles of accelerating the projectile in the channel of the gun barrel), which can significantly increase the speed BPS without reducing other basic characteristics of the tank. In addition, armor penetration can also increase due to the use of more advanced core materials of BPS.

Therefore, depending on the tasks that are set before the tank to destroy armored or non-armored targets, a compromise must be sought on ways to increase the firepower of the tank. Today, all types of ammunition for the 125-mm tank gun are quite capable of destroying targets on the battlefield. In addition, the characteristics of ammunition are constantly being improved, the gun is being improved and its muzzle energy is growing, and the firepower of the tank is growing with the existing gun caliber.

Of course, the 152-mm gun is more efficient than the 125-mm, but increasing firepower in this way leads to a significant increase in the reserved volume, mass of the tank, complicating the design of the automatic loader and reducing its reliability, increasing loads on the power plant and chassis. All this leads to a decrease in the mobility of the tank, one of its main characteristics.

For example, during the development of the last Soviet Boxer tank, the installation of an 152-mm gun led to a complication of the design of the automatic loader and a decrease in its reliability, as well as a serious increase in the mass of the tank. It began to exceed 50 tons, and in the design of the chassis and protection had to use titanium, which complicated the process of production of the tank.

In this regard, the increase in the firepower of the tank due to the installation of the 152-mm gun is far from always justified. It is advisable to consider other methods of increasing firepower. For example, in the middle of the 80's in the Instrument Design Bureau, Shipunov showed us the results of work on the Veer R&D system, in which we developed a ground-based anti-tank missile system based on a laser-guided missile and an armor-piercing core accelerated to hypersonic speed. The missile was a “crowbar” with a diameter of approximately 40 mm and a length of about 1,5 meters. A powerful engine was installed in the tail of the rocket, accelerating it to hypersonic speed. This complex did not reach the army at that time, but technologies are developing intensively and at the present level it is possible to realize ideas that could not be completed until then.

It should also be noted that in terms of armor penetration the TURS is practically equal to the BPS, and they are not so critical to the caliber of the gun. Moreover, tours with GOS are being developed, working on the principle of "shot-and-forget," which, in terms of the combination of parameters, is much more effective than BPS.

Security


The increase in tank security due to armor protection is also approaching its saturation, while other protection methods, such as dynamic, active, optoelectronic and electronic countermeasures that do not require a serious increase in tank mass, are being intensively developed. New ceramic and polymer materials are also being developed for resistance close to armor.

The development of electromagnetic and electrodynamic protection systems for the tank using an electrical impulse to protect against the cumulative jet and core of the BPS, which were started at the All-Russian Research Institute of Steel at the beginning of the 80's, but then not brought to practical implementation due to the lack of energy storage devices of acceptable dimensions, is also being revived. . The rapid development of technologies for these elements, in all likelihood, will allow in the near future to implement these types of protection on tanks.

Increasing the protection of the tank through the use of classic armor is hardly justified, since it leads to a prohibitive increase in the mass of the tank and the inability to use it not only in combat conditions, but also during transportation due to the lack of necessary transport communications, bridges and overpasses, as well as transportation difficulties by rail.

Apparently, the mass of the tank should be of the order of 50 tons, which allows to ensure a sufficiently high level of its basic characteristics.

Mobility


The mobility of the tank, determined by the power plant and the caterpillar mover, does not undergo fundamental changes on the new generation of tanks. Nothing new and realizable has been proposed. A power plant based on a diesel engine or gas turbine engine remains unchanged. Their power increases and the elements of the caterpillar undercarriage are improved, which provide good mobility to the tank. Any exotic propulsion devices (walking, crawling, wheeled, etc.) on the tank did not take root.

Nevertheless, you should probably consider a possible combination of caterpillar and screw propellers, the latter was used in the Blue Bird astronaut’s search engine, developed back in the 1966 year and providing the vehicle with very high cross-country and rough terrain. As a result of such experiments, new approaches to the design of the chassis can be proposed that increase the mobility of the tank in difficult terrain.


Cosmonaut Search Engine "Blue Bird"


Tank handling


Within the framework of the modern concept of “network-centric warfare” and network-centric warfare, the tank must be integrated into a unified battle control system, ensuring the integration of all types of troops participating in a particular operation into a single whole. The system should provide coordination and control of motorized rifle, tank, artillery units, helicopters and fire support aircraft, UAVs, air defense systems, and support and repair and evacuation forces. To include the tank in a network-centric system, it must be equipped with the necessary systems.

All combat units taking part in the operation, including tanks, must automatically detect and display cartographic information about their location in real time, about targets discovered and received from higher commanders, and exchange information on the location of combat units via closed communication channels, the technical condition and supply of ammunition, the state of the enemy to the operational depth, discovered independently or by intelligence obtained from ground and air targets and defense units ones of the enemy, determine their coordinates and transmit to the appropriate level of control, as well as form teams on subordinate control objects. Commanders should be able to control the fire and maneuver of the unit in real time, carry out target designation and target allocation in subordinate units and adjust their fire.

All this can be implemented using a digital information management system that combines all the instruments and systems of the tank into a single integrated tank system and all combat units into a single combat control system. Such a network-centric control system allows you to optimize hostilities and in real time to observe, evaluate the situation and manage the implementation of the task for each commander of the appropriate control level. Tanks in the framework of this system receive a fundamentally new control quality and their effectiveness increases dramatically.

In this system, each tank is already equipped with all the necessary elements for remote control and firing from the tank, as well as its use as a remote-controlled robotic tank.

In modern conditions, without the introduction of network-centric systems, the successful conduct of hostilities will be very problematic. Such systems have long been developed and implemented. On tanks of NATO countries, such as Abrams and Leclerc, the second generation of TIUS is already installed, on Russian tanks individual elements of TIUS are used only on the Armata tank.

It is possible to equip the existing generation of Russian tanks with a tank information management system, but only the hull and turret, power plant and weapons will remain from the tank. All equipment, sighting systems and OMS are subject to replacement and installation of a new generation of devices and systems. The components and assemblies of the tank are subject to refinement under the possibility of remote control using electronic systems. In fact, these will be new tanks that can be integrated into the network-centric combat control system.

In this regard, re-equipping the entire army with a new generation of Armata tanks is impractical and unrealistic. There should be a program for deep modernization of the existing generation of tanks that can fit into the network-centric system on a par with the new generation of tanks and ensure their joint effective use in a combat situation.

When evaluating tanks according to their main characteristics (firepower, security and mobility) in modern conditions of network-centric warfare, it is necessary to evaluate tanks also from the point of view of their controllability within the framework of a single combat control system and the ability to integrate into such a system.
152 comments
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  1. -8
    3 September 2019 18: 11
    It does not make sense to use a TOURS in conditions of equipping KAZ tanks.

    The future lies in managed reactive BTS.
    1. +1
      3 September 2019 18: 36
      Quote: Operator
      The future lies in managed reactive BTS.

      I can smell you now, they'll minus you, "experts" will run up with slogans like "BOPS 30mm thick where to shove that jet engine! You don't understand anything! You ***! You didn't serve in the army! You didn't ride in tanks! You didn't fight ! you outplayed the worl of tanks! ", and explaining to them that the engine outside the BOPS rod is useless for them ...

      Well, if it’s serious, then most likely the future is for PLA / UAVs with active-reactive armor-piercing high-explosive shells and for high-precision self-propelled guns with _MRSI_ and adjusted armor-piercing high-explosive artillery mines. PMSM it is these two areas that provide 1) the maximum minimum cost of destruction, 2) the sufficient density of fire per enemy BBM and 3) the maximum minimum probability of destruction of personnel and material assets in their own units.
      1. +3
        3 September 2019 20: 15
        Quote: ProkletyiPirat
        I can smell you now, they'll minus you, "experts" will run up with slogans like "BOPS 30mm thick where to shove that jet engine! You don't understand anything! You ***! You didn't serve in the army! You didn't ride in tanks! You didn't fight ! you outplayed the worl of tanks! ", and explaining to them that the engine outside the BOPS rod is useless for them ...

        You have greatly complicated something. In real life, hypersonic rockets, including guided missiles, have existed for a long time. And hit the target due to kinetics, "penetrator"
        And "in BOPS 30 thick" they really do not shove anything, this is stupid.

        Quote: ProkletyiPirat
        Well, if it’s serious, then most likely the future is for PLA / UAVs with active-reactive armor-piercing high-explosive shells and for high-precision self-propelled guns with _MRSI_ and adjusted armor-piercing high-explosive artillery mines. PMSM it is these two areas that provide 1) the maximum minimum cost of destruction, 2) the sufficient density of fire per enemy BBM and 3) the maximum minimum probability of destruction of personnel and material assets in their own units.

        Expensive and stupid. Very American 8)))
        At all they are trying to cross. giving birth to a universal tool.
        1. -5
          3 September 2019 20: 39
          Quote: Spade
          Expensive and stupid.

          It’s bold but stupid due to the reluctance to compare the cost, here simple maths for ATGMs destroy a lot of complex and expensive elements, for example, GOS, with a vertical take-off UAV with a manipulator rail to launch the ARBFS, a minimum of resources is spent on destroying the target. The advantage is the ability to work because of the shelters and the marginal minimum cost of destroying the target. The disadvantage of short range due to the uncontrollability of the projectile (this disadvantage is compensated by tactics of use).
          1. +1
            4 September 2019 00: 22
            Quote: ProkletyiPirat
            It’s bold but stupid due to the reluctance to compare the cost, here simple maths for ATGMs destroy a lot of complex and expensive elements, for example, GOS, with a vertical take-off UAV with a manipulator rail to launch the ARBFS, a minimum of resources is spent on destroying the target.

            The same amount of resources.
            You can reduce the cost only by using unguided ammunition.
            Efficiency can only be increased using highly specialized ammunition.

            Quote: ProkletyiPirat
            Shelter advantage

            Because of the shelters, even modern tanks can work. I’ll keep silent about modern ATGMs.
            1. -3
              4 September 2019 02: 47
              Quote: Spade
              The same amount of resources.
              You can reduce the cost only by using unguided ammunition.
              Efficiency can only be increased using highly specialized ammunition.

              That's why I wrote to you "Boldly but stupid due to unwillingness to compare the cost," in ATGMs, electronics go to waste with each shot, and in the case of a UAV only when it is shot down, and then it is not a fact that finally, in addition, one UAV can have several ARBFS accordingly, the resource consumption is even lower, in addition, this ARBFS can be used to destroy fortifications in the same city where tanks and missiles are completely useless because of the PTS and cost price, in addition, the UAV can carry machine guns and grenade launchers to suppress / defeat manpower, as well as ensure the rise of assault groups to the roofs of buildings.
              1. +4
                4 September 2019 07: 27
                Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                in ATGMs, the electronics go into junk with every shot, and in the case of UAVs

                ... will also go into the scrap with every shot. They are quite easily knocked down.
                And at the same time, the probability of hitting a target in an ATGM is higher Just at the expense of speed and size.
          2. +3
            4 September 2019 02: 29
            That's why in the Red Army no one GOS in the ATGM popped, a solenoid, a coil with wires and a light bulb, that's all the electronics :-)
            Yes, and now, too, not to say that there has become much more
            1. 0
              29 November 2019 09: 00
              What's the truth? Do the tanks know that they have a coil with wires there?
      2. 0
        4 September 2019 05: 32
        All the minuses received and you should attribute the same to a categorical tone. Silence to all, I said so. Perhaps you need to explain why your opponent and you are personally sure of this and what are the reasons for this in the modern world.
        1. -2
          4 September 2019 07: 31
          The branch above is just described in more detail ...
        2. +1
          4 September 2019 07: 40
          Quote: YOUR
          Perhaps you need to explain why your opponent and you are personally sure of this and what are the reasons for this in the modern world.

          It is impossible to explain.
          In fact, this was the most promising topic at the end of the Cold War. Indeed, they are relatively cheap and are most likely to hit armored vehicles even in modern conditions. In the presence of modern armor, KOEP and KAZ. Active development was carried out in the USA

          More than sure that the USSR had similar developments

          However, with the "victory in the Cold War", a delusion appeared that such highly specialized complexes are no longer needed. To defeat "soft" "terrorist" targets, a warhead with explosives is needed. And work on hypersonic kinetic anti-tank missiles was actually stopped.
      3. 0
        4 September 2019 16: 30
        Regarding the "minus" and "running" here you are absolutely right!
    2. +6
      3 September 2019 18: 45
      The future belongs to the tanks that are competently used on the battlefield. The tactics of the 80s with the massive use of tanks no longer work. There is no point in memorized memos honed by foot on the woods of deploying a company column into a battle line. I judge in the Donbass — the main and most sought-after option — drive two boxes per landing, there behind the field (a checkpoint, a tank in a trench or a brazen beh), the wuyks are insolent, you have to feed them! Next, poke a finger at the map. Neither intelligence information, nor the ability to crawl on the belly and see for yourself (landing along and across is bombarded with streamers and other joy) By the way, the same field is also very well-fertilized! As a rule, the result is deplorable. So hto counts it there! Let's say more! On the other hand, the same crap! And in Syria, the same thing! Now the war is stupid and wasteful - that in people that in the BK-infantry extinguishes machine guns with guns, Two snipers are sent to the same landings, and how the Ukrainians at first used the aircraft ... If we had a wang, it would be the same !
      1. +7
        3 September 2019 19: 07
        Say, not the topic? And now, the performance characteristics of our main tanks are sufficient to successfully defeat any enemy. If the car is serviceable, correctly calibrated and shot, you can fight! We would have a better overview, but a competent thermal imager! And so that our adversary would not listen! . Such a joke!))))
        1. -3
          3 September 2019 20: 22
          Quote: 113262
          Say, not the topic?

          Whether or not this is a holivar, but the schizophrenia of calculations is obvious, first talk about the fact that tanks are needed, and then give examples where there is zero sense from tanks, and then again "everything is fine, beautiful marquise."

          Personally, I think that TBBM (heavy armored combat vehicles) are needed, and even tanks are needed, but the specific TBBM concept called "MBT" is outdated due to the fact that:
          1) MBT is unable to overcome modern fortifications with the presence of modern PTS, moreover, the quantity, quality and effectiveness of these PTSs grow every year, and therefore the effectiveness of MBT decreases.
          2) In modern theaters of war / TBD, helicopters and airmobile units are orders of magnitude superior to MBT in terms of "entering the operational space and cutting communications", and they do this so effectively that today "front lines" have ceased to exist where there are helicopters ...
          1. -1
            3 September 2019 21: 13
            Now MBT is not even able to approach the deployment line! And suppressed by the same MLRS. On the march! What is now in the trenches and under the masksets at least 5 km from the front end is potential scrap. For it is constantly being explored. It is because of this that the tanks in Svetlodarsk and Popasnaya are right under the windows. They hope to hide behind a peacekeeper. And helicopters, with the current availability of air defense systems, are color! The video from Georgievka-Lutugino from the MI-24 cockpit is well known.
            1. -1
              3 September 2019 23: 47
              Any equipment in the hands of De *** but will be scrap metal.
            2. +3
              4 September 2019 00: 37
              Quote: 113262
              Now MBT is not even able to approach the deployment line! And suppressed by the same MLRS. On the march!

              If you do not apply any countermeasures ....

              But in fact, it is very difficult to hit the columns of an actively opposing enemy.
              Disguise measures, REP, counteraction to observation
              Corner reflectors, special aerosols, impervious to the radar range, false paths with simulated movement. In the end, the increased distance between the machines laid down in the Charter. In short, options for the sea.
              1. 0
                4 September 2019 08: 07
                Grad's package covers the company column with a margin! UAVs at the adversaries-just heaps! Practice shows that any movement even in the second tier is not a secret at all! Satellites both hung and hang!
                1. +2
                  4 September 2019 08: 25
                  Quote: 113262
                  Grad's package covers the company column with a margin!

                  No, not a "column" but several tanks

                  Quote: 113262
                  Satellites both hung and hang!

                  And what prevents them from incapacitating? Burn optics, RL means to dazzle or drown.
                  1. +1
                    4 September 2019 09: 43
                    Something I have not seen a single satellite of the fallen! So unburnt and fly! And drones-both hung-and hang! Stops 10 percent maximum!
                    1. +2
                      4 September 2019 09: 52
                      Quote: 113262
                      Something I have not seen a single satellite of the fallen!

                      Why drop it? Let it fly. Just burn out the optics.
                      In addition, whatever you say, the satellite is not a very good idea, because the time of its flight is always known.

                      Quote: 113262
                      And drones-both hung-and hang! Stops 10 percent maximum!

                      Are they lying to us in Hmeimim and Tartus? Here are the bastards.
                      In fact, there are huge losses from the UAVs of the baboons, is it just hiding?
                      1. +1
                        4 September 2019 12: 56
                        About Syria, I am only from the stories of those who were there, but Donbass is closer to me! I am in it. And about the satellites and about the UAV, I'm talking about our sheep! At the adversary, they are unmeasured, 5 years did not lose time. From small copters to entire planes. Small-bother to detect and shoot down. For you just flies sighting.
      2. +2
        3 September 2019 19: 09
        I completely agree with you. There are also urban battles, which are practiced in Syria. The use of tanks in the city generally boils down to this: "Uh-uh! Commander --- FAQ? --- See that five-story building? --- Uh-huh --- Third floor, fifth window on the left ---- Ponil."
        1. 0
          3 September 2019 20: 52
          Personally, my IMHO, that in the conditions of a city battle, the products that are in service with "chemists" are best suited, i.e. flamethrower ammunition, since it is not a fact that the "stone hut" will withstand the hit of a 125-mm land mine. And in a city battle, the disposition can change very quickly, and there is a possibility that the damaged position will be useful to yourself
          1. 0
            3 September 2019 21: 07
            Our PF on a high-explosive-entrance panel 5-storey stacks up. Evropeytsi have cut it through! No shrapnel!
      3. +1
        3 September 2019 19: 17
        What was it was. But somewhere until the middle of 2016. Right now, the saturation of the UAV is such that the mouse does not slip through, on the one hand, on the other hand. Though? If again maneuvering battles, then the same thing will begin. Although on a smaller scale!
      4. 0
        29 November 2019 09: 02
        It is ridiculous to judge by the local conflict a pair of brigades on each side of how the army of tens of thousands of people will operate.
    3. +2
      3 September 2019 19: 31
      BOPS is just as unprotected from KAZ as ATGM. Work is already underway and the result is not far off. But you can put on ATGM means to overcome the KAZ.
      1. +1
        3 September 2019 20: 22
        Quote: garri-lin
        BOPS is just as unprotected from KAZ as ATGM.

        It depends on how to overclock it. Starstrika penetrators have a maximum speed of 1400. This is more than the starting speed for many BOPS
        1. +2
          3 September 2019 22: 08
          Well, in principle, the theoretical BOPS can be dispersed to 2-2,5 km, and this is now possible but expensive. And to take into account the context of KAZ, it is necessary not the maximum speed, but the speed at the moment of approaching the target. Israel seemed to say that 1200m / s (the speed in different sources is different) is already being tracked with confidence, but with defeat it is still uncertain. It seems like Afghanite, but there is secrecy. It is difficult to say what the second generation of KAZ will be, but there is a high probability that targets with a speed above 1500 m / s will also be lost. So fast BOPS have a minus: lateral load. Not scrap but received a lateral impulse, the scrap will stupidly break without breaking through the armor. KAZON very tightly dealt with a lot, after the success of Israel in the application. I think the maximum capabilities will be achieved very quickly.
          1. 0
            4 September 2019 00: 17
            Quote: garri-lin
            And to take into account the context of KAZ, it is necessary not the maximum speed, but the speed at the moment of approaching the target.

            That’s the whole ficus picus, that BOPS has the maximum speed, it’s initial, and rockets have the moment the engine stops working.
            That is, theoretically, with equal speed when departing from the barrel, the final speed of the RS when meeting with the target will be much higher

            Quote: garri-lin
            And to take into account the context of KAZ, it is necessary not the maximum speed, but the speed at the moment of approaching the target.

            Rather, the reaction time.
            1. 0
              4 September 2019 08: 37
              Well, America abandoned its kinetic ATGMs. There, the price of the rocket was 300 if the Internet wasn’t lying.
              1. +2
                4 September 2019 09: 40
                Quote: garri-lin
                Well, America abandoned its kinetic ATGMs. There, the price of the rocket was 300 if the Internet wasn’t lying.

                Most likely lying. Well, such missiles cannot be more expensive than systems with GOS

                As an option, this is the price of a prototype. They didn’t put them on the stream.
                1. 0
                  4 September 2019 11: 25
                  I guess, yes. The price is high. But maybe it's because of the engine. The power supply there is high. By the way, the idea flickered to compare with the shell rocket. The speed is comparable, though the weight of the shell is less than a third.
          2. 0
            4 September 2019 17: 18
            Quote: garri-lin
            Israel seemed to say that 1200m / s (the speed in different sources is different) is already being tracked with confidence, but with defeat it is still uncertain

            BOPS also monitors Trophy, but cannot do anything with it, due to the long reaction time.
            Quote: garri-lin
            So fast BOPS have a minus: lateral load. Not scraped but received a lateral impulse, the scrap will stupidly break without breaking through the armor

            everything is very complicated there. BOPS are different. If it is solid, not segmented, then you need to beat it only in the first quarter, only such an impact will lead to a change in its trajectory, and, as a result, the projectile will either not hit the tank at all, or will fall far from the optimal path and will not be able to penetrate tank armor . Segmented - can be anywhere, it is fragmented.

            For KAZ designed to combat BOPS, you need a high-precision radar and a very short reaction time in order to accurately calculate the moment of firing of the counter ammunition and to fire the shot itself
            1. 0
              4 September 2019 17: 57
              What is worse than the last quarter long? And armor penetration directly depends on the length, how fragmented scrap will it be?
              1. +2
                5 September 2019 21: 50
                Quote: garri-lin
                And armor penetration directly depends on the length, how fragmented scrap will it be?

                length is not important for armor penetration.
                A segmented (fragmented) BOPS breaks through the armor, then cascades through the barrier. Ultimately, a large number of high-speed fragments are released that increase the area of ​​armor damage. Moreover, such a projectile better overcomes DZ.

                Quote: garri-lin
                What is worse than the last quarter long?

                experts (on the basis of modeling, and, apparently, field experiments), say that it is necessary to hit the first quarter of the "scrap", such an impact is most effective from the position of destroying the projectile or deflecting it from the trajectory. The impact on the second half of the projectile practically does not lead to a positive effect.

                This only confirms that it is very, very difficult to deal with BOPS. Whatever many "experts" say here. BOPS in many respects do not care about the presence of DZ (even the latest generations), do not care the angle of inclination of the armor, do not care almost all modern KAZ (only for the domestic Afghanit, the possibility of combating BOPS at speeds up to 1800 m / s is declared), it has a very short flight time. And it is cheaper than the cheapest ATGM or corrected projectile, and more powerful than them at short and medium distances. So far, he lives up to the saying - there is no reception against scrap.
                1. 0
                  5 September 2019 22: 29
                  It is just a very wad factor. BOPS overcoming the barrier, as it were, is rolling off. Google photos of scrap scrap after breaking through. There shorties of 20 cm go into the reserved space. The rest is spent on overcoming the armor. As for the front quarter, thanks for the clarification. Something passed by, you need to look for info. The fact that it is difficult to fight with BOPS is kind of disputed. Difficult but possible. And steps in this direction are being made and there is a result.
                  But about the cheapness of the controversial statement. BOPS is more complicated in the production of most ATGMs. And I think it’s more expensive. And if you compare with the ATGM having a similar range of 2000m, then in general the differences in price will be large.
                  1. -1
                    6 September 2019 22: 37
                    Quote: garri-lin
                    Just a very wad factor is long

                    the ratio of length to diameter is more important. The higher it is, the greater the speed, and, as a result, penetration. But the effect of negative factors is stronger.

                    Quote: garri-lin
                    But about the cheapness of the controversial statement. BOPS is more complicated in the production of most ATGMs.

                    not harder. Need a high-quality calculation and precision machines. What is now more commonplace than nonsense.

                    Quote: garri-lin
                    And when compared with ATGM having a similar range of 2000m

                    then bOPS has a greater penetration, as well as the important nuance that it is very difficult to defend against it.
                    When the gunner pressed the "measure range" button, the laser rangefinder sent a pulse. The enemy tank knows they are being targeted. The automatic systems for setting the curtains will work, the command to the mechanic "tear it, damn it !!!" (but not executed, because time goes by seconds) ATGM flies for about a minute, BOPS - seconds. Whatever the target undertakes, for BOPS it's like a dead poultice. If the sight was correct, the projectile will hit the target, with an ATGM it is not obvious.
                    1. +1
                      6 September 2019 23: 26
                      1. The ratio is long to diameter. Minimum diameter reached. There is nothing to increase strength. Since it matters and weight. Other materials are not prtmenish. 2. What is BOPS made of? What kind of machines are needed to process such materials? What consumables? All is not cheap. 3. BOPS distance 2 KM. A missile flies not a minute, but a second. Over long distances, BOPS loses its advantages. Yes, and the armor penetration of the cumulus may be higher. It all depends on the diameter of the funnel.
        2. 0
          4 September 2019 08: 11
          We are here real d-81, as they are not called discuss! And they are already at the limit — fired the BOPS conveyor — throw the barrel out! Yes, channel wear is just wild! At first, you can simply compensate it with a switch for the calculator, but the ballistics is still lame!
          1. 0
            4 September 2019 08: 24
            Quote: 113262
            We are here real d-81, as they are not called discuss! And they are already at the limit — fired the BOPS conveyor — throw the barrel out!

            Well.
            And I pointed out that hypersonic kinetic anti-tank missiles are capable of replacing "scrap". Without shooting the barrel, providing a greater final speed at the target (after all, the BOPS after leaving the barrel bore actively loses it)
            Not without the drawbacks associated with the restriction in the minimum firing range, but nonetheless ...

            Quote: 113262
            At first, you can simply compensate it with a switch for the calculator, but the ballistics is still lame!

            This is because they are used to saving on it. Given only approximately.
            For example, modern tools like 3D scanners are able to accurately assess the wear of the bore and its effect on ballistics. Doppler and laser determinants of the deviation of the initial velocity similarly did not receive much distribution, at least in tanks. Similarly, a radar score is able to estimate deviations of the projectile trajectory from the tabular one. And they are also not used. Well and so on.
            1. +1
              4 September 2019 09: 39
              According to the ARS, well, he has nowhere to accelerate to working speeds! The main wars go 2-2,5 km, the marching engine simply will not work. There, the tracer is almost invisible, it flies so fast. And all these diagnostic nishtyaki is for the bulk of our machines, the distant future! Even the bend sensors of the barrel are not visible on all B3! And for Donbass it’s fantastic! Ukrainians bought and delivered French kit kits, but they are also not tied to a calculator.
              1. +1
                4 September 2019 09: 48
                Quote: 113262
                By ARS

                This is not ARS. The trunk is not involved in giving initial speed.

                Quote: 113262
                The main wars go 2-2,5 km

                Starstrick has a minimum of 300 meters.


                Quote: 113262
                And all these diagnostic nishtyaki is for the bulk of our machines, the distant future!

                No future "I will save" (c)
            2. -1
              4 September 2019 17: 26
              Quote: Spade
              BOPS after departure from the trunk channel actively loses it

              only "short" BOPS. With an increase in the ratio of length to diameter, the loss of speed is significantly reduced.
              Quote: Spade
              Not without drawbacks associated with the restriction in the minimum firing range

              namely, that at a short-medium distance such a "rocket" will have less armor penetration than a projectile. And in order for it to hit the target at a long distance, you will need to adjust the flight - i.e. to make the projectile guided - but in essence, the same missile. With all that it implies - complexity, price, etc.
              1. +1
                4 September 2019 17: 32
                Quote: Gregory_45
                only "short" BOPS

                Any. This is physics

                Quote: Gregory_45
                namely, that at a short-medium distance such a "rocket" will have less armor penetration than a projectile.

                But it will be more effective when firing at long ranges than TUS.

                Quote: Gregory_45
                And in order to hit the target at a great distance with it, a flight adjustment will be required - i.e. make the projectile manageable - but essentially the same missile. With all the consequences - complexity, price, etc.

                Well yes. And this is not a problem. Relatively cheap control systems of the second generation.
                Not only that, the Americans at one time considered that the correction of the trajectory only in the acceleration section is enough. Which is clearly cheaper
                1. -1
                  4 September 2019 21: 49
                  Quote: Spade
                  This is physics

                  the fact of the matter is that physics. BOPS with a large lateral load loses 50-80 m / s per kilometer. This is negligible compared to the initial speed of 1500-1800 m / s at a distance of 2-3 km.
                  And no need to reinvent the wheel on triangular wheels.

                  Quote: Spade
                  But it will be more effective when firing at long ranges than TUS

                  will not be. Firstly, long-range shooting for a tank is not relevant (for many reasons), and secondly, over long distances, the advantage over the cumulative.

                  Quote: Spade
                  Quote: Gregory_45
                  And in order to hit the target at a great distance with it, a flight adjustment will be required - i.e. make the projectile manageable - but essentially the same missile. With all the consequences - complexity, price, etc.

                  Well yes. And this is not a problem. Relatively cheap control systems of the second generation.

                  problem. BOPS has no control systems at all, it cheap (with respect to any adjustable ammunition) and he does not care for any interference.
                  1. -1
                    5 September 2019 23: 55
                    Quote: Gregory_45
                    BOPS generally has no control systems, it is cheap (with respect to any adjustable ammunition) and it does not care for any interference.

                    Uranium or even tungsten BOPS is cheap! ?? Who told you this? Show me this place where such penny alloys stand .. Or are you hoping to raise a business on resale? wink
                    1. 0
                      6 September 2019 21: 02
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      Uranium or even tungsten BOPS is cheap

                      We read carefully - cheap in relation to any adjustable ammunition
                      1. -1
                        6 September 2019 22: 03
                        Quote: Gregory_45
                        We read carefully - cheap in relation to any adjustable ammunition

                        I do not want to delve into the debate, but you are not quite right. Yes, there are price tags inflated to heaven for the same Javelin .. But there are many old ATGMs on the market that literally cost a penny compared to uranium BOPS.

                        The question of the price of ATGM is controversial. For simple options, the price quickly drops and they begin to use essentially consumer electronics. Such ATGMs will easily overtake elite "uranium scrap" at a low cost.
                      2. -1
                        6 September 2019 22: 15
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        but you are not quite right.

                        right Any fixed ammunition is cheaper than adjustable. Electronics are expensive, especially one that can withstand the severe overloads that occur when fired. Uranium, which is used in cores, is a waste of the nuclear industry. Tungsten BOPS is much more expensive. But he is a cheap ATGM.
                      3. -1
                        7 September 2019 22: 09
                        Quote: Gregory_45
                        right Any fixed ammunition is cheaper than adjustable.

                        You diligently shy away from having to do a little head work. Not in the sense of eating it .. But in the sense of thinking with your head.

                        If I am not mistaken, the last missile on the roller I posted was the ATGM rocket. In the original, getting Baby into the tank was not easy. However, it is enough to stick the wires into a modern guidance unit and the Baby flies no worse than Tou. These missiles are still full in warehouses. And today, in the production of such ammunition is not much more expensive than a rocket for RPG-7.

                        I strongly doubt that your "uranium scrap" will suddenly turn out to be cheaper than Baby.
    4. 0
      3 September 2019 21: 20
      Do you know how much they cost?

      in Soviet times, one such projectile cost as a Lada - 7000 rubles, and a regular HE as officer boots - 25 rubles.
    5. -1
      3 September 2019 22: 00
      Quote: Operator
      The future lies in managed reactive BTS.

      If your BPS is armor-piercing, sub-caliber, then you can bet. The big minus of BOPS is straightforwardness, you cannot maneuver at huge speeds, and KAZ and sub-calibers successfully intercept. No matter how hard you try, you won’t accelerate them to the speed of light, which means that KAZ sensors will always be the first to work.

      Modern ATGMs, on the other hand, are able to maneuver, it is enough to recall Javelin (by the way, already obsolete and removed). This is where opportunities appear to deceive KAZ and bypass or even try to overload with two three simultaneously attacking warheads.
      1. +1
        3 September 2019 22: 13
        Despite the straightness of the flight, KAZ BPSs are not able to intercept them due to the high flight speed (approaching 2 km / s) and, accordingly, the short time for interception after detection (of the order of several hundredths of a second).
        1. 0
          3 September 2019 22: 20
          Quote: Operator
          Despite the straightness of the flight, KAZ BPS is not able to intercept them due to the high flight speed

          Recently, only the news showed Jewish KAZ. And there, in the comments, several videos were posted where the new, shatterproof KAZ successfully intercepts, including BOPS. The speed of KAZ can always be increased. But the speed of BOPS has almost reached the limit. The atmosphere is too thick, do not kick it harder, it will bend about the air :)
          1. +2
            4 September 2019 17: 14
            Recently, only the Jewish KAZ was shown in the news ..... and they also say hens are milked in Moscow. , but in fact
      2. +1
        4 September 2019 00: 18
        Quote: Saxahorse
        Modern ATGMs, on the other hand, are able to maneuver

        They are not so active in maneuvering to create problems for KAZ
        1. -1
          4 September 2019 21: 57
          Quote: Spade
          They are not so active in maneuvering to create problems for KAZ

          Quite active. For example, performing a slide to attack a tank from above, into the "KAZ funnel", can do almost all modern ATGMs, including Russian ones. In any case, this has been repeatedly mentioned.
      3. -1
        4 September 2019 21: 54
        Quote: Saxahorse
        The big minus of BOPS is straightforwardness, you cannot maneuver at huge speeds

        Yes and no. It flies so fast that you only have time to see someone's death in the form of a fire arrow

        Quote: Saxahorse
        and KAZ and subcalibers successfully intercept

        just learning

        Quote: Saxahorse
        which means KAZ sensors will always be the first to work

        Unfortunately no. Everything is very, very difficult here. radar can detect BOPS; many systems have enough speed only to intercept subsonic munitions.

        Quote: Saxahorse
        Modern ATGMs, on the other hand, are able to maneuver

        Yes, none of the ATGM can not maneuver. Even your vaunted Javelin flies along one of the pre-programmed paths. Predictable if familiar with the system.
        1. -1
          5 September 2019 23: 48
          Quote: Gregory_45
          Yes, none of the ATGM can not maneuver. Even your vaunted Javelin flies along one of the pre-programmed paths. Predictable if familiar with the system.

          Well you blurted out laughing

          A programmed path does not mean predictable. Any ATGM only does what maneuvers. This BOPS is flying in a straight line. Everyone knows that Javelin can make a hill during an attack (or maybe not) But no one knows the exact parameters of this hill, even Javelin himself. It will not work to build an ATGM trajectory in three points, which means that we need the same maneuvering interceptor or a continuous fragmentation curtain over almost the entire sphere.
          1. -1
            6 September 2019 22: 10
            Quote: Saxahorse
            Any ATGM only does what maneuvers.

            does not maneuver, but tries to deviate from the desired trajectory, and the ATGM control system tries to return the missile "on the right track." Do you call this maneuvering? Stupid, very stupid, even funny))
            All ATGM "maneuvers" are an attempt to go beyond the line of sight of the missile. Yes, the ATGM follows an unpredictable trajectory, with changes in the trajectory up and down and left and right, but these are not targeted maneuvers, but rather a lack of missiles. These oscillations of the missiles proved that the fight against them by means of a machine-gun mount (they tried to make such KAZ as well) is ineffective, but some changes in the trajectory on the effectiveness of intercepting the KAZ counter-ammunition have no effect

            Quote: Saxahorse
            Everyone knows that Javelin can make a slide during an attack (or maybe not)

            it depends solely on the mode that the operator selected before starting. Like Spike. The rocket itself cannot make such a decision. The flight path is one of the programmed.

            Quote: Saxahorse
            But no one knows the exact parameters of this slide

            if you do not know - this does not mean that no one knows))

            Quote: Saxahorse
            Well you blurted out

            that's for sure, you blur out so blurted out)
            1. -1
              7 September 2019 21: 59
              Quote: Gregory_45
              does not maneuver, but tries to deviate from the desired trajectory, and the ATGM control system tries to return the missile "to the right path." Do you call this maneuvering?

              At some point, it seemed to me that you began to respond to comments adequately. It is unfortunate that it only seemed.

              Re-read the phrase that you yourself just wrote "does not maneuver, but tries to deviate from the desired trajectory" - are you sure you wrote this in your right mind and sober memory?

              The fact that the ATGM is constantly changing the trajectory of its flight is a fact that even you can’t refute :)

              Tie nonsense already to write ..
              1. -1
                8 September 2019 08: 20
                Quote: Saxahorse
                The fact that the ATGM is constantly changing its flight path is a fact

                that's what I was trying to convey to you. This does not mean that she maneuvers. A maneuver is a deliberate (conscious) change in trajectory, not a chaotic "bounce". You are completely unaware of the meaning of the term maneuver. In your opinion, drunk in a barn, trying to stay on his feet, also maneuvers? And the falling plane too? And do not care that the body or the plane does not obey someone's will ...

                Quote: Saxahorse
                Tie nonsense already to write

                take advice) And even so they wrote nonsense nemeryanno
                1. 0
                  8 September 2019 22: 45
                  Quote: Gregory_45
                  take advice) And even so they wrote nonsense nemeryanno

                  And to you in the same place. Judging by the number of minuses to any of my comments, you are petty and dirty. Well .. And there are some ..
    6. 0
      4 September 2019 09: 59
      Quote: Operator
      The future lies in managed reactive BTS.

      And there will be some active-reactive BPSs ... But the question is, why only one of them? Why "or" and not "and"? To defeat various targets, different types of ammunition are needed and the TUR also has a right to exist. As well as "kamikaze drones" in the tank ammunition
      1. -3
        4 September 2019 11: 22
        The article was primarily about anti-tank ammunition. There are no anti-tank problems - a caliber projectile with OFS (against infantry) or a short-focus cumulative charge (against bunkers).

        The tank fires in line of sight, so the lower the initial speed of the anti-tank projectile, the better - mounted shooting becomes available, more power at the target and less barrel wear.
        1. +1
          4 September 2019 11: 27
          Quote: Operator
          The tank fires in line of sight

          No, he has equipment for long-range shooting, including from closed positions. And the emergence of small reconnaissance UAVs for equipping tank units, not to mention connecting them to a single information and command field, significantly increases the range of "vision"
          Quote: Operator
          therefore, the lower the initial speed of the anti-tank projectile, the better - mounted shooting becomes available,

          But here "little things", the angle of vertical rise of the gun at the tank is too small, which means that such shooting is of little use
          1. -3
            4 September 2019 11: 56
            The firing range from an M-30 howitzer with a barrel length of 22 caliber is quite worthy of 12 km - I don’t think the tank would be able to shoot at longer distances (there are self-propelled guns and MLRS for this). In addition, nothing prevents equipping non-armor-piercing shells with a rocket engine and firing at least for 30 km.

            A howitzer gun of low ballistics (initial projectile velocity ~ 500 m / s) will reduce the size of its breech and, accordingly, increase the angle of its vertical lift.
            1. 0
              4 September 2019 11: 59
              Quote: Operator
              The firing range from an M-30 howitzer with a barrel length of 22 caliber is quite worthy of 12 km - I don’t think the tank would be able to shoot at longer distances (there are self-propelled guns and MLRS for this).

              Guns are installed on the tanks, and it means that the angle of the projectile’s throwing is different from that of the howitzers. You can hit targets like a trench or dugout from it, but less effectively than from a howitzer.
              Quote: Operator
              Low ballistic howitzer

              This will force to completely redo the fighting compartment of the tank. Such work is best done on tanks fire support vehicles
              1. -3
                4 September 2019 12: 06
                What is the problem of installing a howitzer instead of a gun on a tank?
                1. +2
                  4 September 2019 20: 30
                  Quote: Operator
                  What is the problem of installing a howitzer instead of a gun on a tank?

                  There is no problem and they have been doing this for a long time, only the output is not the tank, but the self-propelled guns.
                  The gun has a huge advantage, in the range of a direct shot, it will hit the enemy faster, since the projectile’s flight speed is higher, the range of a direct shot itself is greater
                  1. -3
                    4 September 2019 21: 26
                    The flight time of an active-howitzer projectile is equal to the flight time of an active projectile of a gun (due to the higher APC speed).
                    1. +1
                      4 September 2019 21: 42
                      Quote: Operator
                      The flight time of an active-howitzer projectile is equal to the flight time of an active projectile of a gun (due to the higher APC speed).

                      Well, this is not just a howitzer, howitzer gun, since the internal pressure of the guns is higher, then their barrel is different than that of the howitzers. As well as anti-recoil devices, howitzers are more complicated than cannons. As a result, a howitzer gun is more expensive than just a gun or howitzer.
                      And honestly, I don’t yet see big prospects for active-reactive BOPS. How far do you want to use them? The average firing range of direct fire from the European theater of war - 2,5 km. Such a distance is quite within the capabilities of ordinary BOPS, and even in a very short time. I believe that the transition to liquid-throwing substances is more promising, they can give an increase in pressure in the bore, and mean speeds, besides dispensing HMW, it is possible to hit targets more flexibly. And of course EMP guns, they are far from fantastic, especially for operating at a distance of a couple of kilometers, and with them you can achieve such speeds that you can destroy the tank with a running nut
                  2. -1
                    8 September 2019 08: 28
                    Quote: svp67
                    The gun has a huge advantage, in the range of a direct shot, it will hit the enemy faster, since the projectile’s flight speed is higher, the range of a direct shot itself is greater

                    and the tank gun has higher accuracy than any howitzer, because direct fire is fired
                    I don’t understand some commentators who are diligently trying to make self-propelled guns from the tank
        2. -1
          4 September 2019 21: 56
          Quote: Operator
          mounted shooting becomes available

          mounted shooting is not possible for the tank, due to the small elevation angles of the gun. Learn materiel
        3. -1
          8 September 2019 08: 26
          Quote: Operator
          The tank fires in line of sight, so the lower the initial speed of the anti-tank projectile, the better - mounted shooting becomes available, more power at the target and less barrel wear.
          Reply

          you offer to make self-propelled guns from a tank.
          The advantages of the tank are its mobility, armor protection, and guns, which allows you to drive it directly (thanks to serious armor) and as accurately as possible (because direct fire) and quickly disassemble any reinforcement or support the infantry. The tank does not need to shoot long distances. Mounted shooting is not accurate. It is necessary to hit targets in the trenches - for that there are shells with remote detonation.
  2. +3
    3 September 2019 18: 21
    For a long time he was tearing himself through the jungle of platitudes, and only after reading to
    On the tanks of NATO countries, such as Abrams and Leclerc, the second generation of TIUS is already installed, on Russian tanks individual elements of TIUS are used only on the Armata tank

    I understood why it was all written.
    Where does the stamped information about the separately or on-board equipment of Armata come from?
    Is it a disclosure or a dash? :-)
    1. +1
      3 September 2019 18: 54
      The author is right about "separateness" because the information in the public domain is scattered and does not allow making a conclusion about "complexity". The latter can only be known by the developers and crews of the Armata. True, the presentation is such that Armata looks lagging behind.
      1. 0
        4 September 2019 21: 57
        Quote: dzvero
        еbarges

        exactly
        Quote: dzvero
        can know
        1. +1
          5 September 2019 07: 15
          drinks I know that there is "e reverse", and "e with two dots", but I have enough "s" so that life does not seem like honey. To be honest, I am too lazy to change the keyboard layout, and (as you can see on the forum) even Russians have a problem with these letters. So I get fucked up with this like two fingers on the asphalt.
  3. 0
    3 September 2019 18: 28
    Is it enough to evaluate modern tanks by firepower, security and mobility?

    Of course not.
    Today, in the foreground is BIUS (Combat Information Management System).
    1. +3
      3 September 2019 19: 11
      In the foreground, both standing and standing, is the literacy of the commander who is able not to substitute his material part for the TOU.
      1. +2
        3 September 2019 19: 23
        In the foreground, both standing and standing, is the literacy of the commander who is able not to substitute his material part for the TOU.

        That's just the commander is not a psychic, he needs to know where he is, where are the allies and the enemy himself. The more data you have, the better.
        1. +2
          3 September 2019 20: 43
          Data should not be redundant and insignificant, otherwise the commander’s brain will boil during sifting out of insignificant data, for this a CIUS is needed, moreover, divided into tactical levels from detachment to regiment. It is even advisable that each fighter, depending on the VUS, receive specific information for him, for example: to the sniper - air temperature, wind speed and direction, to the machine gunner - the distance and direction of the sniper, machine-gun calculation or ATGM calculation, well, the speed with the direction of the wind does not hurt, but the signalman the situation on electronic warfare, etc.
          1. +1
            3 September 2019 20: 56
            Data should not be redundant and insignificant, otherwise the commander’s brain will boil when sifting out insignificant data,

            It doesn't matter, you can put a radiator on your head.

            For this, a CIUS is needed, moreover, divided into tactical levels from squad to regiment.

            Right! there they give the commander all the necessary information. Awareness is a terrible force!

            It is even advisable that each fighter, depending on the VUS, receive information specific to him, for example: to the sniper - air temperature, wind speed and direction, to the machine gunner - the distance and direction to lay the sniper, machine gun calculation or ATGM calculation, well, the speed with the direction of the wind does not hurt, but the signalman the situation on electronic warfare, etc.

            Yes it would be nice. But this is already very difficult to technically organize. Technologically - real, but technically very difficult. Yes, and economically ...
  4. 0
    3 September 2019 18: 36
    We are waiting for the same publication on airplanes.
    A lot of adherents of super speeds and super maneuverability.
  5. 0
    3 September 2019 19: 03
    Quote: ProkletyiPirat
    BOPS in thickness in 30mm where that jet engine to shove

    The standard solution is to install a rocket engine in a caliber projectile with a diameter of 120-160 mm. After firing the projectile from the barrel at a speed of 0,5 km / s, the rocket engine is turned on and accelerates the projectile to 2 km / s, after which an armor-piercing rod with a diameter of 20-30 mm is fired from the projectile.

    The chip is in the inertial guidance system of the caliber projectile / armor-piercing rod with a CVO of 0,1 meter for every second of flight.
    1. 0
      4 September 2019 08: 27
      the idea is good, you can even return rifled trunks altogether, but it seems that it’s impossible to disperse the sub-caliber scrap hung by accelerators to comparable speeds developed in the trunk, in the lower atmosphere, at real (and even long) battle distances
  6. +4
    3 September 2019 19: 05
    Evaluating something separately is difficult, especially the tank. Yes, and especially not why.
    The economic base, the determination / motivation of the military, and the willingness of politicians to take responsibility will decide everything.

    At least it would be interesting to arm some of Ethiopia and Eretrea, some Abrams, others Leclerc (options are not limited) each with the same amount. The same number of RSOs, helicopters and see what happens in the end.
  7. AUL
    +3
    3 September 2019 19: 07
    A little clarification about the auger propeller. There were experiments with augers, but the augers did not go in. There were many more minuses than pluses. And the Blue Bird eventually became wheeled.
  8. -1
    3 September 2019 19: 35
    Quote: garri-lin
    BOPS is just as unprotected from KAZ as ATGM. Work is already underway and the result is not far off

    KAZ "Hammer" intercepted, and KAZ "Armata" intercepts only ammunition at a speed of 0,9 km / s.

    Where can I look at the work being carried out?
    1. +2
      3 September 2019 22: 28
      Where does such an exact infa on afghanit come from? More precisely, where is the exact infa that cannot intercept the faster ones? According to the trophy it is precisely known that it cannot, but it is possible to upgrade the theoretical.
      I can’t give a link to work to intercept the BOPS. Lazy and not save. So sorry. But the Internet is googled so badly by the request of KAZ against BOPS. The next generation will definitely intercept. Here the matter is also that putting a new KAZ on an old platform can be quite easy. But the new, more powerful gun is much more complicated.
  9. +10
    3 September 2019 19: 50
    Cosmonaut Search Engine "Blue Bird"
    Nonsense!
    First, the Bluebird looks like this:

    There is a video where a similar (as in the article) auger rides. In general, the sight is dull: it gets stuck, slow, slow. Its destiny is swamp and snow, with a small load.
    1. +4
      3 September 2019 20: 27
      Quote: Simargl
      First, the Bluebird looks like this:


      ZIL-29061 is also part of the Blue Bird
      1. 0
        4 September 2019 06: 18
        Quote: Spade
        ZIL-29061 is also part of the Blue Bird
        ZIL-29061 - all-terrain vehicle "Malysh"
        Quote: shultz21070
        and in its "set" there is an all-terrain vehicle "Kid"
        In any case, the auger is a stupid machine. The hovercraft is more versatile.
  10. +2
    3 September 2019 20: 08
    Not "Blue Bird" in the photo. The blue bird is wheeled multi-axle, and in its "set" there is an all-terrain vehicle "Kid", so it really is with augers, but it is much smaller in size
  11. +7
    3 September 2019 20: 14
    I will be brief.
    During the first world. when the troops dug in several rows of trenches, when in several rows they were entangled with barbed wire, when behind all this there were easel machine guns. there was a need for tanks. During the Great Patriotic War, remember the tank wedges of Guderian. Now they are rightly setting Ukraine and Syria as an example. There will be no such wars as they were in the 20th century. So the tanks should change, stop burning. But in principle, there are self-propelled guns firing for 40 km. There are modern weapons that were not in the 20th century, the same drones, so think and think what tanks should be. Or maybe they are not needed?
    1. +7
      3 September 2019 20: 30
      Quote: Gardamir
      Or maybe they are not needed?

      This question was first asked at the end of World War I.
      World War II answered this question.
      1. +2
        3 September 2019 21: 33
        World War II answered this question.
        But most likely wars will not be similar to wars of the 20th century.
        1. +5
          4 September 2019 00: 24
          Quote: Gardamir
          But most likely wars will not be similar to wars of the 20th century.

          Naturally. But to rest assured that the tanks will have to exclusively drive the baboons, and therefore they are not particularly needed, it’s still not worth it
          1. 0
            4 September 2019 08: 21
            in my opinion, our people here have just the right understanding: high-tech models are developed and implemented in small batches, which is the first in modern conflicts. In case of more serious ones, outdated samples are preserved and stored, because then it’s not only to create new ones. but repairing the old ones will be problematic
  12. +1
    3 September 2019 21: 22
    Quote: Jack O'Neill
    Yes it would be nice. But this is already very difficult to technically organize. Technologically - real, but technically very difficult. Yes, and economically ..

    I think that in the near future, the success of any operation (with more or less equal forces) will depend precisely on the effectiveness of the control / communication system and electronic warfare
  13. +2
    3 September 2019 21: 37
    Quote: ProkletyiPirat
    2) In modern theaters of war / TBD, helicopters and airmobile units are orders of magnitude superior to MBT in terms of "entering the operational space and cutting communications", and they do this so effectively that today "front lines" have ceased to exist where there are helicopters ...

    Where there is a front line there is an echeloned air defense system, for the same Pantsir-C1 complex it is not a task to get a helicopter for 15-20 km, but for the Pantsir-S1M complex, 35-40 km away. Airmobile units on low-speed equipment are only suitable for barmaley to drive through the mountains, desert and jungle, and in conditions of echeloned defense, as a maximum, the transfer of troops to stop the breakthrough of the defense, striking the breakthrough, only now the combat helicopter alternative, in striking, in comparison with The Su-25, in the cases described, unfortunately not. Ka-52 lacks speed, only 260 km / h, will not have time to dump
  14. +1
    3 September 2019 22: 14
    The article is good, in general I agree with the author. Although for some details you can argue :)

    Of course, a 152-mm gun is more effective than a 125-mm gun, but increasing firepower in this way leads to a significant increase in the reserved volume, tank mass, and complicating the design of the automatic loader ..

    As we can see from Armata, it is not necessary to increase the reserved volume. She has both weight and dimensions and without 152 mm guns have successfully increased :) Although in theory, it should be the other way around. An external module should make the tank easier. And the complexity of the design is sorry, it depends more on the level of work of designers. If there are no beautiful solutions, then anything can be complicated .. Let them learn what else to say.

    The mobility of the tank, determined by the power plant and the caterpillar mover, does not undergo fundamental changes on the new generation of tanks. Nothing new and realizable has been proposed.

    Again, unfortunately, the design level is not the same and it seems they are simply not trying to develop new directions. It would be very interesting not even a "walking" but a well "running" tank. Modern electronics made this problem quite solvable, but alas .. There were no test attempts. :(

    Well, it is impossible to argue about the extreme need for compatibility of a modern machine with the information environment. It is not clear yet where we are. Old tanks (and their latest upgrades such as the T-90xxxx) certainly have nothing really. And which of the necessary is implemented in Armata is still unclear. Must see.
    1. 0
      4 September 2019 06: 57
      Quote: Saxahorse
      An external module should make the tank easier.
      Why?

      Quote: Saxahorse
      It would be very interesting not even a "walking" but a well "running" tank.
      For Israel, and that - only the stony part ... however, and there he breaks his legs.
      Any legged will have more pressure on the ground, ceteris paribus.
      1. -1
        4 September 2019 22: 20
        Quote: Simargl
        Why?

        Because the external module can be made compressed in weapons and less armored.

        Quote: Simargl
        Any legged will have more pressure on the ground, ceteris paribus.

        It doesn’t stop the heron from wandering through the swamps :)) Most of the problems with cross-country ability are elevation differences on the surface. Plus 30 cm and wheeled vehicles begin to slip and brake. Plus 0.5 meters and even the tank will start to get stuck. In walking (running) machines, this problem manifests itself much less.
        1. 0
          5 September 2019 07: 30
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Because the external module can be made compressed in weapons and less armored.
          Why is the T-14 heavier than the T-90? Not so simple. Weight reduction is only possible through crew reduction.
          The fingers of the bird rest on the fibrous soil of the swamp and the actual area of ​​support for it is 20 times greater than the area of ​​the fingers. If the heron is on muddy soil, it will sink.
          The walker is only in the movies or wildly weak booking regarding the mass.
          + all sorts of chips like jerking with a step, low speed ...
          1. -1
            5 September 2019 23: 07
            Quote: Simargl
            + all sorts of chips like jerking with a step, low speed ...

            Tell ostriches about low speed! laughing
            It is scratched so that the earth only occasionally touches, the step length is three to four times the length of the legs.
            1. 0
              7 September 2019 10: 52
              Quote: Saxahorse
              Tell ostriches about low speed!
              Booking with them is so-so. Look at the shock loads on the case: the feathers almost fall off. Head - yes: stabilized.
              Read about walkers and their problems. The smallest - with increasing speed, they increase pressure on the ground.
              1. -1
                7 September 2019 22: 14
                Quote: Simargl
                Look at the shock loads on the case: the feathers almost fall off.

                Quite the contrary, hunters complain that buckshot ostriches often do not pierce feathers :))

                We are not talking about walkers. We are talking about long jump runners. DAPRA has such samples. Nobody even takes a steam bath in our study of this area. :(
                1. 0
                  8 September 2019 08: 30
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  Quite the contrary, hunters complain that buckshot ostriches often do not pierce feathers :))
                  This is not an indicator: it will be even worse if you shoot snot.

                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  We are not talking about walkers. We are talking about long jump runners.
                  Running is like a step, but with a flight phase. Jumping is different. We talked about walkers.

                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  Nobody even takes a steam bath in our study of this area. :(
                  And rightly so! Until the force field is invented, the walker is useless. It can be effective in rocky terrain, but not in our swamps. Work only for export?
                  Kalashnikov showed "sample" tongue
                  1. 0
                    8 September 2019 22: 50
                    Quote: Simargl
                    Running is like a step, but with a flight phase. Jumping is different. We talked about walkers.

                    No. We are talking specifically about the high mobility of two-legged armored vehicles. Walking turtles are uninteresting, it makes no sense. But high-speed bellows are quite affordable at today's technological level. The technological level allows quite. But unfortunately there is no request ..
                    1. 0
                      10 September 2019 05: 44
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      But high-speed bellows are quite affordable at today's technological level.
                      The problem is only in the planet: most of the soils of such an armored monster can not stand.
                      1. 0
                        10 September 2019 22: 28
                        Quote: Simargl
                        The problem is only in the planet: most of the soils of such an armored monster can not stand.

                        And where are they (soils) from the planet going? :))

                        By the way, the famous brontosaurs generally roamed the coastal swamps. And no less famous T-Rexes (also not skinny) they raided there. :)
                      2. 0
                        11 September 2019 06: 57
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        By the way, the famous brontosaurs generally roamed the coastal swamps.
                        How all this was exactly we do not know. However, with reservations in animals, too, so-so.
  15. 0
    3 September 2019 22: 28
    Quote: Saxahorse
    Jewish KAZ

    Do not give a link?
    1. -1
      4 September 2019 22: 59
      Quote: Operator
      Do not give a link?

      I saw it right there on Topwar in the news: "https://topwar.ru/161558-izrailskie-btr-jejtan-poluchat-kaz-hec-dorban-iron-fist.html"

      "Israeli armored personnel carriers" Eitan "will receive KAZ" Hetz Dorban "(Iron Fist)"

      The full video is in the comment sp77ark (sp77ark). BOPS there at the 8th second is trying to fly. I’ll try to insert a link to that video.

      1. 0
        4 September 2019 23: 09
        At 8 second, something with a rocket engine is intercepted - obviously not BOPS.
        1. -1
          4 September 2019 23: 21
          Quote: Operator
          At 8 second, something with a rocket engine is intercepted - obviously not BOPS.

          There was something with rockets in all the other seconds. A pencil with a plasma trace is your favorite 1200 m / s. :)
          1. 0
            4 September 2019 23: 35
            Plasma is generated starting at a speed of 1500 m / s.

            Judging by the speed of the counter-ammunition in the video (300 m / s), the speed of the attacking ammunition is ~ 900 m / s.
            1. -1
              4 September 2019 23: 38
              Quote: Operator
              the speed of the attacking ammunition is ~ 900 m / s.

              In my opinion, it’s somewhat larger, in my opinion it is 4 times faster. One hell none of the ATGM at such speeds does not fly. And his plumage glows.
              1. 0
                4 September 2019 23: 58
                Plumage I did not notice.

                In any case, the difficulty of intercepting a high-speed attacking ammunition (as I said) lies in the too short time between the moment it was detected by the KAZ radar, determining the estimated point of meeting of the ammunition and the munition, turning in the right direction of the KAZ ammunition and launching the munition.

                The range of radar determination of the coordinates and speed of the attacking ammunition is no more than 500 meters, therefore, the time reserve for everything about everything is no more than 0,3 seconds.

                If the flight direction and the moment of launching the attacking ammunition are known in advance (to the testers), then it is very simple to set the launchers in advance at the required azimuth and synchronize the launch of the counter-ammunition with the launch of the ammunition.
  16. 0
    3 September 2019 22: 30
    Quote: garri-lin
    where the exact infa that can not intercept the faster?

    From the Internet.
    1. 0
      3 September 2019 23: 29
      Now I climbed the wilds. It seems that the Afganit PDA has been working on ammunition 1000 + m, since back in 16.
      1. 0
        3 September 2019 23: 38
        In addition to the short reaction time, an armor-piercing rod weighing ~ 10 kg flying at a speed of ~ 2km / s has a large kinetic energy, therefore, for its deflection, a direct hit of a kinetic counter-munition with similar kinetic energy is required.

        That for any existing KAZ / SAZ is unattainable.
        1. +2
          4 September 2019 00: 01
          Well, cut the weight in two. Speed ​​one and a half times. And read about the problems of stabilizing ammunition of large elongation. BOPS does not need to be knocked down. It is enough to give him a lateral impulse. And he himself will break on the armor. If the longitudinal axis does not coincide with the trajectory, the crowbar will unfold flat. If the crowbar begins to bend in flight, it will break.
          1. 0
            4 September 2019 00: 26
            The armor-piercing rod of large elongation is perfectly stabilized in flight by means of the tail unit, as well as by the inertia force possessed by the mass of the substance of the rod in flight.

            In order to destabilize the rod (change the motion vector), one must still be able to get into it (rod diameter ~ 22 mm). In addition, if the munition material is not strong enough, the tungsten / uranium rod will cut the munition like a butter knife.

            In the process of breaking through the armor, located at an angle to the direction of flight, the bending forces in the rod are an order of magnitude higher than the bending forces from the strike of the munition against the rod.
            1. +1
              4 September 2019 08: 44
              It seems like the impact on the bops goes with a shock wave and not with striking elements. So there’s nothing to cut.
              And the "bending forces" are not important. The main thing is to destabilize the position of the BOPSA axis relative to the trajectory. The rest will be done by armor.
              1. 0
                4 September 2019 11: 25
                The shock wave is not like an armor-piercing rod with a minimum area of ​​lateral projection - ATGM can not destabilize.
                1. 0
                  4 September 2019 11: 40
                  The shock wave of directional action is a very unpleasant thing. She simply cuts any ATGM in half.
                  1. 0
                    4 September 2019 11: 43
                    Where can I read about the shock wave of directional action?
                    1. 0
                      4 September 2019 11: 46
                      Googling ka Ukrainian defense "Knife" works. And imagine all this not on the armor, but 10 yetra from the tank.
                      1. 0
                        4 September 2019 12: 02
                        The "Knife" operates with a radial fragmentation flow, not a shock wave.
                      2. 0
                        4 September 2019 12: 12
                        A directed explosion is operating on the Knife. there are no fragments there. The minus of the knife is that this happens directly on the armor and BOPS does not have time to tighten from external influences.
                      3. 0
                        4 September 2019 12: 19
                        I apologize (I confused "Knife" with "Zaslon"): a shaped charge is operating in the KAZ "Knife" - a stream of fluidized metal, and not a shock wave of gases from the detonation of an explosive.
                      4. 0
                        4 September 2019 12: 26
                        Not a cumulative needle, but a cumulative knife. Not a bullet in a bullet, but roughly a saber across a saber. Quite different requirements for accuracy. And this, as I remember, was the most important argument for you that it is almost impossible to get there. Plus, a directed shock wave can be formed without a metal component. The breakdown efficiency is lower, but the overall externally impact remains. Give lateral acceleration. Such a charge will be able to BOPS.
                      5. 0
                        4 September 2019 13: 11
                        cumulative "saber" across the steel "saber" cannot be obtained in principle, and even then the effect will be near-zero
                      6. 0
                        4 September 2019 17: 46
                        Is it possible to deploy more? Why can't it work out?
                      7. 0
                        4 September 2019 18: 29
                        if we are talking about KAZ (and not about dynamic defense), then the firing of counter-ammunition should be carried out not only at the lead point, but also followed by a detonation across, i.e. reaction time increases, and the attacking shell can have a very different speed and a very small diameter in general for a strictly focused jet; in particular, for BOPS, the speeds are comparable, but the masses are not
                      8. 0
                        4 September 2019 18: 38
                        The velocity of the projectile is the first thing that is determined after determining the trajectory. There is a special radar for this in Afghanistan. Very accurate. The main thing here is that there should be enough time to calculate the lead points and shoot the counter-ammunition. Mass also should not be commensurate. Lateral impulse for ammunition large elongation is extremely harmful. The rest will be done by the instability of the scrap itself.
                      9. 0
                        5 September 2019 09: 19
                        If we talk about the longitudinal placement of shaped charges, then, compared with the work of dynamic protection, it will turn out rather not a "saber", but a "comb" with more powerful and rare teeth, i.e. if BOPS is defeated, the problem will again be reduced to being hit by a "bullet in a bullet". But let us have a more practical "brick", the problem is that the KAZ must hit targets of different speeds. And if, say, there are targets with speeds of 500m / s and 1000m / s, then this is only for armor between 1 and 2 meters, the difference is small, between the more practical 2 and 4 "focus" the cumulative jet especially on such a difficult target as BOPS it will be more difficult
  17. +2
    3 September 2019 23: 40
    "152 mm MORE EFFICIENT 125 mm"
    Either more efficient or just more efficient
  18. +1
    4 September 2019 03: 11
    Quote: Operator
    The armor-piercing rod of large elongation is perfectly stabilized in flight by means of the tail unit, as well as by the inertia force possessed by the mass of the substance of the rod in flight.

    In order to destabilize the rod (change the motion vector), one must still be able to get into it (rod diameter ~ 22 mm). In addition, if the munition material is not strong enough, the tungsten / uranium rod will cut the munition like a butter knife.

    In the process of breaking through the armor, located at an angle to the direction of flight, the bending forces in the rod are an order of magnitude higher than the bending forces from the strike of the munition against the rod.

    Finally an adequate comment!
    And then here already tungsten and uranium scraps began to intercept with ease. Obviously, people have never held scrap in their hands :-)
  19. +1
    4 September 2019 09: 47
    A tank as an independent combat unit, except in exceptional cases, practically does not apply

    It was necessary to tell Kolobanov in the 41st. And not only him
  20. 0
    4 September 2019 13: 04
    Quote: garri-lin
    saber across the saber

    The "Knife" has longitudinal cumulative charges, therefore, when the frontal projection of the tank is fired, a saber is obtained along the saber, which multiplies the probability of the armor-piercing rod passing to the armor without consequences.
  21. 0
    4 September 2019 14: 10
    The people, and the main defense against tanks, is interaction with other branches of the armed forces.
    Tanks will not come to the front line, and MLRS they will be covered at the deployment stage?
    AHA.
    Not. Well, in our charters (in defense) it is assumed. such events. And the offensive?
    So, the defender is always late and numerically inferior to the advancing (well, of course, if the event was carried out secretly, with elements of military cunning). And the attackers have allocated forces and means that should suppress the enemy’s opposition as quickly as possible .. And they begin to press the first, and while the defenders come to their senses a significant part of the forces will be lost (the theory of deep defeat involves striking not only at the second echelon and reserves of the compound (in the first default naturally) but also for army and front-line reserves.

    And the first position (and this is direct line of sight shooting) should generally be swept away (even if a support line is provided).

    For me, now the main defense against defeat or increasing firepower is the skillful misleading of the enemy (and by all means).
  22. 0
    4 September 2019 15: 52
    Of course not enough. The tank still has to be able to move sideways and diagonally in width. To be able to shoot bursts of cannon with dumplings in sour cream, fried matzo and of course a roach.
  23. 0
    4 September 2019 21: 54
    Quote: svp67
    Howitzer recoil devices are more complex than guns

    Quite the contrary - due to the lower energy of the shot (the so-called low ballistics), howitzers are simpler and lighter than the cannons of the same caliber.

    The most favorable initial BPS speed is determined not by the range of a direct shot, but by ensuring the self-sharpening of the head tip of the armor-piercing rod during penetration of the armor - in uranium it is achieved at a speed not lower than 1600 m / s, in tungsten - at a speed not lower than 2000 m / s. Plus, the drop in rod speed during inertia flight is ~ 50 m / s for every 1000 m distance.
    Therefore, the maximum BPS speed when firing at 3 km should be: for a uranium rod not less than 1750 m / s, for a tungsten rod - 2150 m / s.
  24. 0
    6 September 2019 07: 04
    The author, could you please highlight the issue of electrodynamic protection? I don’t remember anyone taking up this business at VO.