Military Review

Papess John. The Vatican's biggest secret

144
Some historians are sure that the throne of St. Peter in the Vatican was occupied not only by men. The only exception to this rule was a certain woman who, allegedly, in the middle of the 9th century, hiding her gender, performed the duties of the pope during the 2 years, 5 months and 4 days. According to some medieval authors, she was elected to the post of pontiff after the death of Leo IV - in 855. She ascended the holy throne as John VIII, but is better known under the name of "Popess of John."


Papess John. The Vatican's biggest secret

John in the papal tiara. Painting, circa 1560


The Catholic Church, of course, resolutely rejects the fact of the existence of the “papess,” and the question of historical the veracity of all these legends is still not permitted.

Traces of Popess John


Indirect evidence of the possibility of a woman staying on the papal throne unexpectedly appeared in the year 1276, when, after the death of Pope Adrian V, his successor took the name John XXI. Meanwhile, if you follow the official chronology of the Vatican, its “serial number” was supposed to be “XX”, and this fact, beyond doubt, certainly seems very interesting. Attempts to explain it by the mistake of scribes (absolutely everyone?) Look, to put it mildly, not very convincing.


5 Euro coin with the image of Pope John XXI, Portugal


Another proof of some scandal related to the sex of the popes is the strange tradition of putting the newly elected pontiff in a special marble chair with a hole in the seat (sedia stercoraria) in order to examine him for being a male. Having received confirmation that the new pontiff had the corresponding genitals, the conclave applauded. This applause, accompanied by shouts of “uovo” (“ovo”), was called ... “ovation”! If not laziness, look how the word "uovo" is translated from Italian into Russian. This custom was abolished by Pope Leo X - in the 16th century.


Rafael Santi, Pope Leo X and Cardinals Giulio de Medici and Luigi de Rossi, circa 1518


The procedure for checking newly elected Roman popes for being male is mentioned in many medieval literary sources, the most famous of which is the novel Gargantua and Pantagruel, written by Francois Rabelais in the 16th century.
The arrangement of the famous armchair was described in detail by the Greek historian Laonikius Chalkonopoulos in 1464. It stood for a long time in the portico of the Cathedral of San Giovanni in Laterano, now it can be seen in the Vatican Museum. However, right now you do not need to go far, here is a photo of this chair, look:


Chair for the procedure for checking the affiliation of the popes to the male sex



Check for male affiliation of the chosen pope. In this engraving, the shape of the chair does not coincide with what we see in modern photography. Perhaps, over the centuries, there were different versions of this chair, but maybe the artist was not present at this ceremony, depicting it from the words of an eyewitness


In general, there is still some kind of “smoke” (without which “there is no fire”). Let's try to understand the available documents.

Papess John in historical documents


For the first time, the name of interest to us sounded, according to some sources, back in the 9th century - in his manuscript he was mentioned by the curator of the Vatican Library Anastasius. The next time it appears in documents in the 13th century, when the Dominican monk Stephen de Bourbon (Etienne Bourbon) in his work “De septem donis Spiritus Sancti” (“Seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit”), said that one of the Roman popes was a woman, died during childbirth. He did not name her.

His brother in the Order, Jean de Mayi, in the same XIII century writes in more detail about a woman who, under the guise of a man, first took up the position of the first notary of the Vatican, then became a cardinal, and then the Pope. During one of the public ceremonies, she began contractions, ending with the birth of a boy. The Romans allegedly tied it to the tail of a horse, and dragged it around the city, and then executed it. At the place of her death, a plate was installed with the inscription: “Petre, Pater Patrum, Papissae Prodito Partum” (“O Peter, Father of the Fathers, Expose the Birth of the Son by the Papess”).


Papess John gives birth to a child. Illustration from Giovanni Boccaccio's “About Famous Women”


Another 13th-century author, Martin Polonius (also known as Martin of Bohemia or Opava, Martin of Tropau) in the Chronicle of the Popes and Emperors (Cronicon pontificum et imperatorum), reports that after Pope Leo IV, the Englishman John was elected new pontiff (Johannes Anglicus natione), who arrived in Rome from Mainz. Martin claims that this “Englishman” was actually a woman named Jeanne, who was born in a family of English immigrants in 822. After her parents died, she, for some time, dressed as a man, lived in the Benedictine monastery of St. Blitruda, where she was in charge of the library . From there, Jeanne, accompanied by one of the monks, went to Athens, where at first she studied at the theological school, and then she taught in it, famous for her education and scholarship.

She was invited to Rome as a teacher of theology and law, for some time she, under the name of Giovanni Anglico, lived in the monastery of St. Martin. Pope Leo IV turned his attention to a capable “learned monk”, in which she began to act as secretary, and then as a notary at the papal council. According to some reports, at that time Jeanne supervised the construction of stone walls that still surround the Vatican. Her talents and authority were so high that she was elected pope, but, during her pontificate, became pregnant and gave birth to a child on the road from St. Peter's Basilica to the Lateran Basilica. Since then, according to Martin, religious processions with the participation of popes never go down this street. This author reports that John died during childbirth and was buried at the place of her death.


Papess John gives birth to a child


There is another version of the Martin Bohemian chronicle, which states that John did not die, but was removed from her post and sent to one of the monasteries, where she spent the rest of her life in repentance. And her son grew up and became bishop of Ostia.


Papess John with a child


Popess John is also mentioned in ancient Russian sources. So, in the Nestorian annals under 991 it is said that, having learned that Prince Vladimir was addressing the Pope, the Patriarch of Constantinople writes to him:
“It is not good to have a relationship with Rome, for there was a woman Anna dad, going from the crosses to Baptism, gave birth on the street and died ... on that street, the pope does not go with crosses."


Some researchers quite logically suggested that in this case we are dealing with "black PR": the Orthodox patriarch could slander his Roman rivals. After all, there is a hypothesis according to which all this legend about papess John is of Byzantine origin. But it may well be that the patriarch informs the prince, although compromising Rome, but completely reliable information. It is known that, for some reason, none of the representatives of the official church authorities objected to Jan Hus when he in 1413 at the Cathedral in Constance, refuting the claim that the Cardinals conclave is an infallible instance, said to the accusers:
“How can the Church be spotless and spotless if Pope John VIII turns out to be a woman who has given birth to a child in public.”


Of this, of course, it is impossible to draw an unambiguous conclusion about the real existence of Popess John. But we can safely assume that the judges of Gus read the above sources, knew from them about the popess and did not doubt its existence. The absence of objections, in general, is not surprising, because from the 13th to the 15th centuries the fact of the existence of the “popess” by John Rome was not advertised, but was not denied, with preference being given to the version of Martin Polonius. Mention of John is on the official list of popes of that time - Liber Pontificalis, the only copy of which is stored in the Vatican library.


Popess John, engraving


It is known that in the cathedral of the city of Siena among the many busts of the popes between Leo IV and Benedict III for a long time there was a female bust with the inscription "Giovanni VIII, a woman from England." At the beginning of the XVII century, Pope Clement VIII ordered to replace him with a bust of Pope Zachariah.


Siena Cathedral, among these busts once stood and a woman with the inscription: "Giovanni VIII, a woman from England"


Only in the 15th century did the historians of the Church of Enea Silvio Piccolomini and Bartolomeo Platina declare the history of Popess Joanna a legend. Their opinion over time and became the official point of view of the Vatican.

In the era of the Reformation, some Protestant writers turned to the traditions of Pope John, for whom this story became an occasion to demonstrate to the whole world the "primordial immorality of the Roman high priests" and the depravity of the orders that prevailed at the papal court.

In 1557, Vergerio's book was published with the eloquent title, "The Story of Pope John, Who turned out to be a depraved woman and a witch."


Papess John in the image of the Babylonian harlot


In 1582, English merchants presented Ivan the Terrible with a pamphlet about Pope Antichrist, which also contained the story of John Bale, "The Life of Pope Pope John." The tsar ordered the translation of this work into Russian, and he did not go unnoticed: for example, Protopope Habakkuk mentions Pope John.

In 1691, the book “The Unusual History of the Pope Who Ruled Between Leo IV and Benedict III” was written by F. Spanheim.
Martin Luther said that during a pilgrimage to Rome he saw a statue of Popess John.
Look at these two Roman statues - some believe that they depict John in the headdress of the popes:





Later authors found in the chronicles of those years reports of all kinds of signs that preceded the election of the “wrong” pope. In Italy, it turns out, earthquakes, in order to prevent unreasonable inhabitants, destroyed some cities and villages. In France, the role of the sign from above was played by the locusts, which at first destroyed the crops, and then were driven by the south wind into the sea, but were again thrown ashore, where they rotted, spreading the stench that caused the epidemic. In Spain, the body of St. Vincenzo, stolen by a certain monk (an enterprising nun wanted to sell it in pieces as relics), came to the church porch at night, where it began to "loudly beg for a burial in the same place." However, such stories, if desired, can easily be found in the archives - in any quantity. Which, in general, has been done repeatedly. The fact that the innocent Dutch had to “pay” for the rise of the new dynasty in Milan or Florence, and the Lord God punished the Portuguese or Greeks for the fact that some German electors supported Martin Luther, did not bother anyone. The Hussite movement in the Czech Republic, according to the chronicles of those years, was completely accompanied by cheerful night dances of the dead in cemeteries throughout Central Europe. Incidentally, this is mentioned at the beginning of A. Sapkovsky’s novel “Tower of the Fools”:
“He was not the end of the world in 1420, there was not a year later, and two, and three, and even four. Everything flowed, I would say so, in its natural order: wars went on, pestilence multiplied, mors nigra raged, smoothly spread. The neighbor killed and robbed the neighbor, hungered for his wife, and in general was a wolf to him as a wolf. To Jews, every now and then they arranged a pogrom, and heretics a bonfire. Of the new one, the skeletons danced in amusement jumps in cemeteries. ”



Dance of the Dead, engraving from the book Liber cronicarum (Hartmann Schedel, 1493)


The same Etienne of Bourbon acknowledges that "the reign of John VIII was not the worst reign of the others," and only the "disgusting female essence" failed him.

The official point of view of the Vatican


But what does the Vatican say about this?

According to official chronology, the successor of Leo IV was Pope Benedict III (855-858), who takes the place of the hypothetical John. Numismatists even know the coin of Benedict III, dated 855 year. Intravital portraits of this pope were not preserved, the earliest of those that have survived to our time, we can see on the engraving of the XVII century:


Benedict III, Pope. Engraving 1626 g.


Some researchers believe that the years of the reign of Benedict III were “corrected” by the Vatican: they suggest the possibility of consciously dating 855 with the year of the coin issued in 857 or 858, supposedly in this way they could try to erase the memory of the scandal.
As for John VIII, in the list of popes currently accepted, this name belongs to the pontiff who ruled in 872-882.

Skeptics' point of view


I must say that many researchers in this case are on the side of the Vatican, skeptical of information about the existence of Popess John. Their arguments are also quite convincing. They consider this story to be a legend that arose in Rome in the second half of the tenth century as a pamphlet that ridiculed the dominance of women in the court of the popes - from John X to John XII (919 – 963). There is a version that Countess Marotius, who was the lover of Pope Sergius III, could have blinded and then strangled the captive Pope John X, and her son ascended the papal throne under the name of John XI.


Marotius, portrait


It is also known that the Byzantine Patriarch Photius, a contemporary of those events, the enemy of Rome, who accused the popes of heresy, knew Benedict III very well, but he never mentioned John or John. The German historian and theologian Ignaz von Döllinger in the book “Legends of the Middle Ages Associated with Popes” (published in Germany in 1863, in Italy in 1866) believed that the founding of the statue of a woman in the papal was the basis of the legend of “papess” tiara and with a baby in her arms ”and the inscription“ Pap.Pater Patrum ”. In Rome, this statue was kept in a chapel located near the Santissimi Quatro temple, but Sixtus V (was the pope in 1585 - 1590) ordered to remove it from there. Where she is now is unknown.

Many believe that this statue of the “papess” was, in fact, pagan and not even female: “Pater patrum” (“Father of the Fathers”) is one of the titles of the god Mithras. Later, during excavations, archaeologists, at the place where this statue was found, found the foundation of a pagan temple.

The narrow road that goes from St. Peter's Basilica to the Lateran Basilica, on which, allegedly, gave birth to John, was really called once Vicus Papissae. However, it is believed that, in fact, its name came from the house of a family of local rich people named Pape.

Another popess


It is curious that at the end of the 13th century there was another, much less well-known “popess” - the Countess of Milan Manfred Visconti. The fact is that a certain Guglielma of Bohemia, the founder of the sect of the Guglielmites, predicted then that at the end of the era women would ascend the throne of Peter. After the death of Guglielma (1281), her followers decided that the time had come and chose the “popess” - the very Countess of Visconti. In 1300, the unfortunate countess was burned at the stake like a heretic. It is simply amazing that the names of these women do not know and do not use the current feminists.

Interestingly, the famous Lucrezia Borgia, the youngest daughter of the no less famous pope Alexander VI, also for some time "acted" as the head of the Vatican - replacing the father who was absent in Rome (by his appointment). But at that time she possessed only secular, but not spiritual power. And therefore, it’s impossible to call her papacy.

II main lasso of the Tarot deck


In the tarot fortune-telling deck there is a card (the senior lasso II - one of the 22 major lasso), which is usually called the "Papess". It depicts a woman in a monastic robe, in a crown, with a cross and a book in her hands. According to one version of the interpretation, this card means consolation, according to another - high abilities combined with self-doubt.


Tarot Card "Papessa"


Some try to present the image on the map as an allegory of the true Christian Church, but the map (like the others) received this name in 1500. At that time, gambling and all kinds of fortune-telling by the official Church, to put it mildly, were not welcomed, and therefore it was dangerous to correlate the images on the "devil's invention" with Christian symbols because of the high risk of accusations of blasphemy. The drawing on this map and its name then served as a clear allusion to the legend of Pope John.

However, in other Tarot systems on the woman’s head, not the papal tiara, but the headdress of the ancient Egyptian goddess Luna Hathor, and this card is called the “High Priestess” (sometimes “Virgin”), and is associated either with Isis or Artemis.


Tarot Card “Grand Priestess”


And in the Llewellyn system, this is the Celtic goddess Keridwen (White Lady, the goddess of the Moon and death, whose children called themselves the bards of Wales):


Tarot Keridwen Card


Papess John in modern culture


In the XIX century in Russia, Popess John almost became the heroine of A.S. Pushkin, who planned to devote a play to her in the 3 acts, however, he wanted to transfer the effect of this tragedy from the IX century to the XV or XVI century. In addition, in the first edition of "Tales of the Fisherman and the Fish" there was a scene where the old woman wished to take the throne of St. Peter in Rome:
“I do not want to be a free queen,
And I want to be a pope ... ”


The interest in the personality of the mysterious popess John is now quite large. At one of the fashion shows of women’s clothing in Rome, a tall white hat was once shown that looked like a papal tiara. In the catalog, this headdress was held under the name "popessa".

Two feature films were shot about the tragic fate of John. The first one, published in 1972 in Great Britain, is called “Pope Pope John”. In this film, the heroine has a wonderful father - a wandering priest, a preacher who teaches her to read and generally gives a good education.





In the second, shot jointly by the efforts of Italy, Spain, Great Britain and Germany in 2009 (“John is a woman on the papal throne”, the script was based on the novel by Donna Woolfolk Cross), the father, on the contrary, in every possible way impedes the formation of his daughter. She has to learn from some vagabond philosopher who manages to get a girl in a monastery school.





What conclusion can be drawn from the foregoing? Evidence of the existence of Popess John, as before, can only be recognized as indirect. The mystery of John will be solved only after the discovery of the archives of the Vatican for researchers. Only a study of the documents stored there will allow us to draw a final conclusion about the reality of this mysterious woman. In the meantime, the identity of the mysterious popess continues to be the subject of debate and debate.
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  1. Phil77
    Phil77 30 August 2019 06: 25
    +9
    Valery, good morning to you! * I swallowed your article * even before breakfast (although I’m on vacation, my striped mustachioed woman wakes up early and requires FOOD !!). This article is interesting, I learned a lot from you, I already read about some things. But, you made the absolutely correct conclusion: we will find out the truth only after the opening of the Vatican archives! When ??? And since the topic for the church is not entirely pleasant, the forecast is not in the near future. And of course, thanks!
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 30 August 2019 08: 04
      +10
      Sergey, and here ... John’s riddle will be solved only after opening the Vatican archives for researchers. it's not quite like that. And they are open. That's the problem! Come, write a statement and ... work for health! Even in the secret section! Here at VO there was my material about the Vatican archives and how to work there. THERE IS NO PROBLEM, except that this fact is absolutely secret ... but hiding it today is STUPID! The problem is different! Do you have money to live and work there? Do you know medieval Latin and Greek, know how to read handwritten texts of that time? I can not! And Valery - sure, too. And we don’t have money for this. That's the problem!
      1. Ingvar 72
        Ingvar 72 30 August 2019 08: 55
        +4
        Quote: kalibr
        will be allowed only after opening the archives of the Vatican for researchers.

        Those. never, Vyacheslav. There are secrets besides this tens of thousands. hi
      2. Phil77
        Phil77 30 August 2019 09: 13
        +3
        Vyacheslav Olegovich! Somehow in the past you and I were seriously engaged (regarding your attitude, I hope it has changed, towards the proletariat). Since then I have avoided polemics with you, really very good. your words left an unpleasant impression! But okay * the affairs of the past days *, and so I partially agree with you on this matter! But of course, if the business of the * popess * does not lie precisely in a kind of special security, what is possible?
      3. Undecim
        Undecim 30 August 2019 09: 21
        +4
        Before dreaming about the Vatican archives, one could pay more attention to the works of those historians who have already been there and to criticism of the version of "the pope." And then the author of the "legendary version" highlighted in detail, and mentioned the existence of the opposite and its evidence in passing.
    2. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 30 August 2019 13: 29
      -3
      "made an absolutely correct conclusion: we will find out the truth only after
      opening the Vatican archives! When ??? "////
      ----
      They are open.
      But not for everyone. It is necessary to prove that you are a serious historian, to bring recommendations
      from famous theologians or historians.
      In honor of the Vatican I must say that they do not destroy the scandalous (in their understanding)
      documents and artifacts, and securely hide them from the general public.
      But there is little chance for a specialist to see them.
      This is in contrast to the Greek Orthodox Church, for example, which are objectionable to them
      (according to "ideology") the found artifacts are simply destroyed. I was told about this
      Israeli archaeologists.
      About every ISIS and around - say nothing.
      1. Operator
        Operator 30 August 2019 14: 03
        +1
        The most advanced in this regard are rabbis who directly cut the truth in the Jewish scripture of the Torah about how forefather Abraham publicly called his wife Sarah a sister and conveyed to Egyptian pharaoh as a concubine laughing

        The confession of Abraham and the rest of his tribe by the Habiru (future Jews) at that time did not channel the pagan religion with the cult of the West Semitic goddess Ishtar, since the pagans were allowed to be given to strangers only on religious holidays, only for free and only in Ishtar temples.

        On this and other similar examples from the Torah, the morality of the Jewish Habiru has been and is being built over the past 4000 years.

        Praise God that Christian morality was separated from Jewish morality by contrasting the moral imperatives of the Gospel (New Testament) to the moral imperatives of the Torah (Old Testament).
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 30 August 2019 14: 17
          -2
          The Torah is a very truthful book. Without embellishment and silence.
          Therefore, the Old Testament (Torah) is so appreciated by historians as one
          from the oldest authentic documents of human history.
          It is commendable that you paid attention to this.
          1. Operator
            Operator 30 August 2019 14: 27
            0
            It is not commendable that the Torah (which is an integral part of Jewish ideology) for 2000 years has been contrary to the moral principles of the overwhelming majority of people in the world.
            1. voyaka uh
              voyaka uh 30 August 2019 15: 19
              -6
              The Old Testament (Torah) and the New Testament are the foundation of the Judeo-Christian
              Western civilization. Which applies to Russia.
              The civilization that Hitler zealously hated with his Tibeto-Aryan ravings.
              The nonsense that you profess (with a slightly different sauce) and which you are trying to promote on this site as well.
              1. Operator
                Operator 30 August 2019 15: 45
                0
                The Old Testament is the basis of Christianity in the part that does not contradict the New Testament.

                No need to cling to our European Christian civilization with your Asian Judaism - remember where from 2000 years ago Jews were expelled to Africa and where 60 years ago Jews emigrated from Europe.
                1. cradle
                  cradle 31 August 2019 02: 29
                  +2
                  burry when profitable, the Russian Federation belongs to Western civilization, when it is not profitable, then immediately the Huns from Asia.
              2. helvetic
                helvetic 31 August 2019 17: 41
                +1
                Bullshit is to identify the Old Testament with the Torah (not even with the Tanakh). And also - to call Nazism Tibeto-Aryan (Bon religion is also an example of a terrible moral decline and anti-Semitism, or is it not everyone knows about its existence?). In short, comments for the sake of sracha instead of discussion. And also a very cool statement about the Judeo-Christian Western civilization: with whom professionally argue - with Danilevsky, Toynbee or Huntington?
                1. voyaka uh
                  voyaka uh 31 August 2019 20: 52
                  0
                  This is a continuation of the small "in-between" between me and the user Operator. smile I have nothing against Tibet, as well as against Bon. There are against Hitler and his ideological followers disguised.
                  1. phair
                    phair 1 September 2019 03: 37
                    0
                    Girls, do not quarrel, Yahweh is married;)
                    1. voyaka uh
                      voyaka uh 1 September 2019 08: 17
                      0
                      Yahweh (aka: God the Father, Allah, Krishna, etc.) is all on the purple drum. laughing
                      "The world is made - now you guys get it out!"
          2. helvetic
            helvetic 31 August 2019 17: 45
            0
            And the green book from my shelf is very difficult. What am I talking about? Oh yes nothing about
  2. Olgovich
    Olgovich 30 August 2019 06: 35
    +8
    she was elected pope, but, during her pontificate, became pregnant, and gave birth to a baby

    The Pope Born is So Modern, Western yes
    1. Operator
      Operator 30 August 2019 11: 42
      +3
      So, soon in the Vatican will remove the stamp of secrecy from the case of popess Jonna laughing
    2. Reptiloid
      Reptiloid 30 August 2019 12: 42
      +2
      It should be added that the ban on priesthood among Catholics concerned not only women, but also castrati, and generally all amputated survivors, as well as people born with deformities or, say, anatomies in anatomy. But, as far as I know, later the Protestants rejected all these dogmas. For example, the prodigy Zera Colburn is known, who had 6 fingers on each limb. And in the family he had a lot with the same anomaly! What did not stop him from becoming a priest of the Methodist church! By the way, at the age of 10, he removed these fingers.
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 30 August 2019 13: 31
        0
        Sistine Madonna? Who had six fingers there?
        1. Astra wild
          Astra wild 30 August 2019 20: 54
          +2
          At Pope Sixtus, he is depicted praying in front of the Madona. By the name of this pope, the picture got its name.
    3. cradle
      cradle 31 August 2019 02: 29
      +1
      it is too tolerant!
  3. Albatroz
    Albatroz 30 August 2019 07: 14
    +4
    A very mysterious story. Interesting
  4. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 30 August 2019 07: 31
    +8
    Great stuff! Thank you Valery!
    Meanwhile, I note that modern feminists and Christine of Pisa do not know anything.
    1. Phil77
      Phil77 30 August 2019 07: 40
      +3
      Anton! Hello! How demanding you are to feminists, this is the end of the 14th-beginning of the 15th centuries! Well, it's scary for a long time! laughing
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 30 August 2019 09: 11
        +1
        Good morning, Sergey! I believe that the obsession with any idea adversely affects the intellectual level and harmonious development of the individual.
        1. Phil77
          Phil77 30 August 2019 09: 18
          +3
          Oh, Anton! You know these feminists after the disaster * Titanic * (sorry, my favorite topic !!!!) managed to accuse the dead men of violating the rights of women to stay on the ship! True, then they thought, thought and (dots) threw themselves on the monument to the dead men * Titanic *.
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 30 August 2019 18: 56
            +1
            They would have been better off throwing themselves at the memorial to the dead Marines from the Birkenhead. However, Kipling did it much better.
            1. Antares
              Antares 31 August 2019 08: 14
              +1
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              It would be better if they chipped in on the monument to the dead marines from the Birkenhead

              Men need to be destroyed in gas chambers (radical feminists)
              male science too laughing
        2. Astra wild
          Astra wild 30 August 2019 21: 01
          0
          My poet, good evening. Plus you for: "intellectual level and harmonious development." Deficiency in something always affects harmonious development
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 30 August 2019 21: 28
            0
            Hello my Beautiful Stranger!
            I am always glad to have you on the site since our acquaintance!
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 30 August 2019 21: 47
              0
              Oh, some preoccupied hamster was jealous of our purely platonic relationship.
    2. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 30 August 2019 10: 02
      +2
      Great stuff! Thank you Valery!

      will join hi hi
      I think, with regards to the Vatican, another historical phenomenon is interesting - the Pope and the Anti-Pope. what As I understand it, they went down in history according to the principle "who is the last - the one and the Pope" lol in the sense that the winners write the story! yes and whoever won is the head of the Catholic Church. hi hi
      1. Phil77
        Phil77 30 August 2019 11: 03
        +6
        The church in general is an extremely interesting institution of power! It seems that they are talking about God, but nevertheless nothing human is alien to them. And there is no superfluous zealot, and you should not refuse from people under your control, and there is never too much silver! And other worldly temptations.
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 30 August 2019 11: 15
          +4
          And there is no superfluous earth, and you should not refuse from people under your control, and gold, there never is much silver!

          speaking about the church (and by no means about religion) - yes! Business plus power. And yes, they are the same as we, only the profession is different. But sometimes you look at the "business priests" and you don't want to go to church. No. And the Lord will hear it. hi

          but in general there is a gorgeous film "The Monk and the Devil". The relationship inside the monastery is shown with humor. good
          1. Phil77
            Phil77 30 August 2019 11: 36
            0
            I don’t confess, I didn’t look. Religion, I agree, we won’t touch it. But how do these popes and anti-pops differ from our patriarchs? People! And they remain people with all their advantages and, alas, shortcomings!
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 30 August 2019 11: 47
              +1
              People! And they remain people with all their merits and, alas, flaws!

              Yes exactly! Only the profession is different, and professional deformation in the other direction yes Take a look at the movie. Good. good good
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 30 August 2019 19: 09
                0
                The priest is not a profession, this is a vocation.
            2. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 30 August 2019 19: 07
              +1
              No, really!
              How to wear a cassock
              Take care of her,
              Suddenly rejecting at once
              Worldly Being.
            3. Astra wild
              Astra wild 30 August 2019 21: 07
              0
              Sergey, let's ask Valery to talk about the formation of Christianity in Russia. The influence of the church on Moscow princes.
              It seems to me that many will be interested to read about it.
            4. sniperino
              sniperino 1 September 2019 09: 09
              0
              Quote: Phil77
              But how do these popes and anti-pops differ from our patriarchs?

              1. The patriarch does not at all claim secular power, and the pope is the "viceroy of Christ" and the secular head of state of the Vatican with a historical claim to secular power over the entire Catholic world. 2. The patriarch is considered, though worthy, but a man with his sins and the ability to make mistakes (spiritual power in Orthodoxy belongs to the Council), and the Pope, according to the teachings of Catholics, is supernaturally protected from the very possibility of being mistaken in matters of faith and morality when he judges them ex cathedra (as head of the Church). 3. Only a few patriarchs are canonized after death as saints, and the pope after death is usually declared a saint. Enough?
          2. bubalik
            bubalik 30 August 2019 13: 15
            +3
            there is a gorgeous movie "The Monk and the Devil"
            ,, I don’t know whether it was shown on the central channels or not, but I reviewed it twice bully
            Not everything is sacred wink
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. bubalik
                bubalik 30 August 2019 14: 00
                +1
                Pane Kohanku (Pane Kohanku) Today, 14: 34
                ,,, however, the trend winked You did not notice what when discussing, communication smoothly flows onto the marine theme feel ships, pirates, rum and ,,, "papess" laughing
                ,,, and in the final there must be a "tank". drinks
                1. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 30 August 2019 14: 02
                  +1
                  ships, pirates, rum and ,,, "papess"

                  Apparently, lustful, funny pirates died in us! wink Well, probably, it has been laid down since childhood. drinks Everyone liked books about pirates! fellow
                  ,, however the trend

                  I will not let any cadence to my monastery! laughing laughing
                2. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 30 August 2019 19: 10
                  +1
                  Yes, here I am, here hi
                  I figured out what I needed to do. Write on your bucket "Tank named 3x3zsave".
        2. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 30 August 2019 19: 00
          +2
          That's why I wear a fish symbol on my neck, for there is no God in the church.
  5. Undecim
    Undecim 30 August 2019 07: 35
    +4
    Indirect evidence of the possibility of a woman staying on the papal throne unexpectedly appeared in the year 1276, when, after the death of Pope Adrian V, his successor took the name John XXI. Meanwhile, if you follow the official chronology of the Vatican, its “serial number” was supposed to be “XX”, and this fact, beyond doubt, certainly seems very interesting. Attempts to explain it by the mistake of scribes (absolutely everyone?) Look, to put it mildly, not very convincing.
    This fact is not explained by the error of all the scribes. It is explained by an error in the numbering of the popes "John" in the XNUMXth century by one of the unknown authors of Liber Pontificalis.
  6. Korsar4
    Korsar4 30 August 2019 07: 45
    +2
    Repeated three times - and created a tiger.
  7. The comment was deleted.
    1. Phil77
      Phil77 30 August 2019 09: 00
      +1
      Namely, according to the article, do you have anything to * reveal? Besides * pluses * and how did you put it * of a swift jack *?
  8. akunin
    akunin 30 August 2019 08: 41
    +3
    It is curious that at the end of the XNUMXth century there was another, much less well-known “papess” - the Countess of Milan Manfred Visconti
    Thanks, I didn’t.
  9. Moskovit
    Moskovit 30 August 2019 09: 17
    +4
    The Vatican is certainly beautiful. Still impressed by what treasures of world culture are stored there. There are a million secrets and mysteries. But it may be better to let Italians or Catholics solve them at their own expense)).
    By the way, peculiar indulgences still work there. If you want to get there without waiting in line - pay 20 euros. Or stand 3-4 hours with everyone). Nothing has changed for hundreds of years.
    1. Phil77
      Phil77 30 August 2019 09: 29
      +2
      So Rome itself is beautiful!
      1. Moskovit
        Moskovit 30 August 2019 09: 39
        +4
        That is yes. But the Vatican is just plain packed with real ancient Greek and ancient Roman works of art.
        It is a pity that due to crowding and small size, you can not see everything and calmly admire this beauty.
        On the other hand, did not feel any spiritual atmosphere there. Very nice. But the abundance of male and female naked bodies sets up in a different way)).
  10. kalibr
    kalibr 30 August 2019 09: 26
    -1
    Quote: Phil77
    about your attitude, I hope it has changed, to the proletariat

    Sergey! I have a good attitude towards the proletariat, as well as to peasants, worshipers, military men, artists, cesspool workers, and many others. I feel bad about ... stupid. And here I recall the law of large numbers ...% ratio ... Here it determines everything!
    1. Phil77
      Phil77 30 August 2019 09: 50
      +2
      But what attracts you to foolish people! laughing Personally, what do you think: are there archival documents on this subject? Or is it conspiracy thesis?
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 30 August 2019 19: 28
        +1
        Shpakovsky is not attracted to stupid people, he has idiosyncrasy on them, or, in this case, occupational disease associated with forty years of teaching experience.
  11. sergo1914
    sergo1914 30 August 2019 10: 00
    +2
    Dad is a woman. Then mom. Especially given birth. And then some kind of cognitive dissonance. Mom John. That's right.
  12. UVB
    UVB 30 August 2019 10: 04
    +2
    If not laziness, look how the word "uovo" is translated from Italian into Russian
    I was not too lazy. Translated "egg"
    1. cradle
      cradle 31 August 2019 02: 33
      0
      Well, this could be tasted by remembering the word -oval.
  13. Talgarets
    Talgarets 30 August 2019 10: 07
    +1
    Indirect evidence of the possibility of a woman staying on the papal throne unexpectedly appeared in 1276, when, after the death of Pope Adrian V, his successor took the name John XXI.

    I do not understand the logic, the popess was John VIII, and there were still John IX-XX? What is wrong with them?
  14. Talgarets
    Talgarets 30 August 2019 10: 08
    +1
    the body of St. Vincenzo stolen by a certain monk ... came at night to the church porch, where it became "loudly pleading for a burial in the same place"

    Imagine the sight ...
  15. Talgarets
    Talgarets 30 August 2019 10: 20
    0
    My impression is that the whole story described is just one of many "seductive" stories. Something in the style of "Bigfoot was elected to the State Duma." It's just that events really take place in a troubled era (I suggest reading the biographies of other Roman high priests in the 8-10th centuries). And later, the story was inflated and used for anti-Catholic propaganda by Orthodox and Protestants.
  16. KVU-NSVD
    KVU-NSVD 30 August 2019 10: 28
    +1
    Dad was there, or, so to speak, Mom, maybe when they will prove it for sure. But here I have a number of purely everyday questions: 1) How can you hide your gender so that the overwhelming majority of those living in the Vatican did not know about the deception, rumors before the election did not pour from all the local Roman "irons"? ; 2) how to silence the witnesses of her entire previous life? 3) Who dared to have sexual desires and their realization in relation to the Pope himself (?)? ; 4) Why did she not immediately etch the fetus (to find the midwife and in the future it did not seem to "disappear" there were no problems - there was money, dedicated accomplices in any way inside the Vatican should have been there too (after all, she flew in from someone and hardly was it a loner hero))? Well, a number of questions of the same plan, it's just too lazy to write. So I don't really believe in this, but the launch of such a legend on the part of the rival Patriarch of Constantinople (or whatever they called him there) with the aim of denigrating and divorcing the rivals is quite true.
    1. Astra wild
      Astra wild 30 August 2019 21: 25
      0
      You voiced my thoughts: is the whole Vatican blind or are the then women masculine ?.
      Not only patriarchs could launch this legend. I would not be surprised if it turns out that some legendary Catholic dissidents composed this legend. After all, they also had various sectarians
  17. Operator
    Operator 30 August 2019 11: 36
    0
    In the history of Roman pontiffs, the period of pornocracy (official name), which lasted from 904 to 963, is even more interesting, when popes (in the status of boyfriends) were appointed to and removed from office by the decisions of their lovers from the kind of actual rulers of Rome of that period - Theophylacts.
    1. Phil77
      Phil77 30 August 2019 11: 51
      +2
      So Borgia is from there (of course, later!).
  18. alebor
    alebor 30 August 2019 12: 28
    +2
    Interestingly, but the legend did not convey to us the name of the father of the child? A man must be very immoral if he desired the pope himself! The LGBT community could well elect him as their patron saint.
    1. Phil77
      Phil77 30 August 2019 12: 51
      -1
      You know everything is really worse, she doesn’t have a real name! Only the version. About the LGBT people, who to choose? Her? Him? And in general about this audience (ellipsis) live with anyone and whatever you want, but! Without propaganda! So I don’t mind them, well, Tchaikovsky with his wonderful music can not be deleted from history because of his orientation? Yes, and many of these, alas! Well, nature has sensed with them, it happens! And the question is really interesting! whom * popess * gave birth ????
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 30 August 2019 19: 41
        +2
        Yes, Tchaikovsky was not rear-wheel drive! Bisexual, yes - perhaps, but did not advertise. This topic is a common fake, about 30 years ago.
  19. kalibr
    kalibr 30 August 2019 13: 38
    -1
    Quote: Phil77
    But what attracts you to foolish people!

    Me pulls? Why do you think so? There is simply a Pareto law whereby you can spend 80% of effort on 20% of the result and 20 to achieve 80. The first way is more productive - because of how it works on smart ones. But there are more stupid ones, 80%, so it’s easier to work on them, and due to their total mass, the return is the same. That's all!
  20. kalibr
    kalibr 30 August 2019 13: 41
    +3
    Quote: Phil77
    Personally, what do you think: are there archival documents on this subject? Or is it conspiracy thesis?

    This is a substantive question. But ... I don’t think anything at all. NO INFORMATION TO THINK. I’ll contact someone, then I’ll think.
    1. Phil77
      Phil77 30 August 2019 13: 50
      +2
      Oh you! Vyacheslav Olegovich! Here is an amateur to play with words! The answer is the answer to all the answers!
    2. Phil77
      Phil77 30 August 2019 13: 55
      +2
      I will say this: * I am an old soldier and do not know the words of love *. But to dive with you is a pleasure! Although your opponent, well ... almost always and in everything !!!
    3. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 30 August 2019 20: 22
      0
      This is a normal answer. If you ask about the cost of fresh strawberries in Ecuador, I will give about the same answer. For reference, my friend lives in Ecuador.
  21. kalibr
    kalibr 30 August 2019 13: 45
    +3
    Quote: Phil77
    But of course, if the business of the * popess * does not lie precisely in a kind of special guard, what is possible?
    Reply

    And let's write them there and ask?
    1. Phil77
      Phil77 30 August 2019 13: 58
      +2
      Quote: kalibr
      Quote: Phil77
      But of course, if the business of the * popess * does not lie precisely in a kind of special guard, what is possible?
      Reply

      And let's write them there and ask?

      And come on !!! And as a title: from Shpakovsky V.O. (known to everyone) and me sinful! I agree !!!!
      1. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 30 August 2019 14: 00
        +3
        And come on !!! And as a title: from Shpakovsky V.O. (known to everyone) and me sinful! I agree !!!!

        It’s your happiness that the Inquisition was canceled .... lol otherwise, in Russia, Protopop Avvakum also somehow wrote to the tsar about his dreams, so they ordered him to be burned alive. request request
        1. Phil77
          Phil77 30 August 2019 14: 03
          +1
          For the truth !!!! ????? !!!! And I’ll go to the fire! Together with Vyacheslav Olegovich! One fire for two! good
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 30 August 2019 14: 04
            +1
            For the truth !!!! ????? !!!! And I’ll go to the fire! Together with Vyacheslav Olegovich! One fire for two!

            I remember that in Europe they burned for three and four ... wink
            1. Phil77
              Phil77 30 August 2019 14: 08
              +1
              Gry! Gry! Gry! Haberdashery and Shpakovsky !!!! (no offense! Vyacheslav Olegovich!).
            2. bubalik
              bubalik 30 August 2019 14: 10
              +3
              I remember that in Europe they burned for three and four ... wink
              ,,, yes with raw firewood yes class good
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 30 August 2019 14: 13
                +3
                ,,, yes with raw firewood

                a kind of humanism ... so that you first suffocate, and only then burned. No.
                yes with raw firewood

                Sergey, I again remembered Vladyka:
                (stretching words of pleasure) "Oh, I would have whipped you ... with rods .. in tinsel ... in all your secret colors!" laughing drinks
                1. bubalik
                  bubalik 30 August 2019 14: 15
                  +3
                  a kind of humanism ..
                  ,,, maybe the bull of Phalaris feel ?
                  1. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku 30 August 2019 14: 16
                    +2
                    maybe the bull of Phalaris

                    and they, like, executed simple enemies, and not enemies by faith .... what or I'm wrong?wink
                    1. bubalik
                      bubalik 30 August 2019 14: 21
                      +3
                      Pane Kohanku (Pane Kohanku) Today, 15: 16
                      ,,, and let's ask our hero
                      Phil77 (Sergey)
                      they prefer outdoors or with a crust belay
                      Who are only kept in monasteries! Fun as in a yellow house!
                      1. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 30 August 2019 14: 24
                        +3
                        ,,, and let's ask our hero

                        there are two of them. Sergei drags along the bonfire of a stubborn Vyacheslav Olegovich. laughing
              2. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 30 August 2019 20: 34
                +2
                Raw firewood, like unnecessary torment, is a fake, they crush even Charles de Coster.
            3. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 30 August 2019 20: 30
              +2
              Jews burned together, in one pit, the entire city diaspora. (Second half of the 14th century)
              1. phair
                phair 1 September 2019 04: 25
                0
                Joshka Leydensky trampled for them ...
          2. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 30 August 2019 20: 26
            +2
            I'll give the two of you a tank!
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 30 August 2019 23: 26
              +1
              keep it for yourself, and we will ask from time to time. wink We still have a Davu case performed by WikNick! good so ... where are my pluses? Why didn’t anyone put Shpakovsky for burning me? am and? I will punish! everybody! flog all! and flog the rest too! fellow Anton, how not ashamed! drinks
      2. kalibr
        kalibr 30 August 2019 14: 03
        +4
        Okay! Let's do this: I will write, and you follow me, and remind me from time to time - as they say, with the Vatican. Otherwise I can forget. Or forget to answer you, .. I am also an "old soldier".
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 30 August 2019 14: 07
          +3
          but you follow me, and from time to time remind me - as they say, with the Vatican.

          there is already a bonfire spread. Soon they will be asked to take places according to the purchased tickets. Yours is on the right. laughing firewood collected by subscription by participants of the VO forum who disagree with you will go as a separate bonus. fellow
          1. Phil77
            Phil77 30 August 2019 14: 21
            +2
            Oh, I'm afraid to burn Vyacheslav Olegovich for a long time and painfully! And I? Not.Ne.Ne.I am only for the truth, and she is different from us! Vyacheslav Olegovich! Do not persuade, for your truth I absolutely do not want to burn !!! hi
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 30 August 2019 14: 26
              +3
              Vyacheslav Olegovich! Do not persuade, for your truth I absolutely do not want to burn !!!

              oh, Sergey, oh, provocateur! Pop Gapon cries with envy aside laughing
              1. bubalik
                bubalik 30 August 2019 14: 35
                +4
                Pane Kohanku (Pane Kohanku) Today, 15: 26
                ,,, and who made a speech about the fire wink who is the provocateur laughing
                I don’t drink only in heaven, but in Russia we don’t bring it to anyone.
                1. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 30 August 2019 14: 42
                  +2
                  ,, and who about the fire then started ... who is a provocateur

                  I tried to save these lost souls from sin! belay the scripture says: God is building a church, and the devil is building a chapel! laughing
                2. Phil77
                  Phil77 30 August 2019 15: 00
                  +4
                  My friends! Yes, you can’t take me to the fire !!! I’m on vacation! Even in company, even with Shpakovsky! You can’t !!!!! I’ll need production later, without me! Well, I can’t go to the fire, right word ! Here it is possible for Vyacheslav Olegovich, but to me, neither, nor !!!! Well, excuse me! Another time!
                  1. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku 30 August 2019 15: 05
                    +3
                    My friends! Yes, you can’t take me to the fire !!! I’m on vacation! Even in company, even with Shpakovsky! You can’t !!!!! I’ll need production later, without me!

                    hmm ... what .... the standard excuse of a professional heretic recidivist. stop They all justified themselves, which supposedly even with Shpakovsky they cannot..... bully Giordano Bruno so generally threw everything at Shpakovsky, though without success. lol I do not believe! fellow repent, sinner, and immediately give the sausage! am tongue
                    1. Phil77
                      Phil77 30 August 2019 15: 09
                      +2
                      Lord, I trust Toko on Anton of our intercessor-Sherman the all-living and all-traveling! His strength is with us, his engine is with us, his tracks are with us! Amen! In the meantime, I may cross, many-sinful, but repentant, for a beer. For on vacation I, kids! Amen!
                      1. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 30 August 2019 15: 15
                        +2
                        Lord, I trust Toko on Anton of our intercessor-Sherman the all-omnipresent and all-passing! With us is his strength, with us is his motor, with us his trucks! Amen!

                        yeah, and also on Kot Pan Kokhankovoy, but he is in the bath, and does not see anyone's prayers .... lol
                        In the meantime, come along, I, a sinner, but repentant, for a beer. For on vacation I, kids! Amen!

                        well he settled down, a sinner ... wink no, look at him! drinks
                      2. Phil77
                        Phil77 30 August 2019 15: 53
                        +2
                        Come on, cats are always good for us, and with sour cream! Well, with the rest, the rest! And dads? Anti-dads? Is there life on Mars? Is there life on Mars-science is not known yet! Here they will open that little room where information about a man-woman (man-woman), dad-nepapa is stored. And we will find out everything! But it’s clear! oh, what a secret komorka !!!!!! A noble Czech beer !!!!
                      3. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 30 August 2019 15: 56
                        +1
                        And dads? Anti-dads? Is there life on Mars? Is there life on Mars-science is not known yet! Here they will open that little room where information about a man-woman (man-woman), dad-nepapa is stored. And we will find out everything! But it’s clear! oh, what a secret comorca !!!!!!

                        if we find out all the secrets, we may have to rewrite all the history books! fellow
                      4. Phil77
                        Phil77 30 August 2019 16: 00
                        +2
                        Here! Here! Friends! And we need it ????? I ask my comments to be taken into account with the real use of beer! While the norm!
                      5. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 30 August 2019 16: 02
                        +3
                        Here! Here! Friends! And we need it ?????

                        if only we know, then we will be removed quietly. If everyone knows, everyone’s brains will go. request
                      6. Phil77
                        Phil77 30 August 2019 16: 05
                        +3
                        Yes, no one will be removed. Why? They will make it so that they will not believe it! The first time or what ????
              2. Phil77
                Phil77 30 August 2019 14: 35
                +3
                Yes, not at all! And the truth is that I am severe as an instruction for the use of a small infantry shovel!
          2. Phil77
            Phil77 30 August 2019 14: 24
            +3
            Nothing, the tank * Sherman * will soon leave! He will build everyone and roll out the rank. Round-carry, square-roll! And without his opinions!
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 30 August 2019 14: 34
              +4
              Nothing, the tank * Sherman * will soon leave! He will build everyone and roll out the rank. Round-carry, square-roll! And without his opinions!

              wait in the evening, Anton comes in after work. You won’t be distracted by his work on the Internet. drinks drinks
        2. Phil77
          Phil77 30 August 2019 14: 11
          +3
          So already! Vyacheslav Olegovich !!!!!! How are you with the Vatican ???? Is there a connection? drinks laughing good
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 30 August 2019 17: 22
            +3
            Not yet. Do you think it is so easy to write them a letter so that they understand the essence of the matter and help? I have not even thought about it yet. Squeeze juice out of apples. Why and called you to the helpers. There was already a case: for a year I tried to contact the American Rifle Association at the request of one person with VO. And I couldn’t!
        3. Phil77
          Phil77 30 August 2019 14: 26
          +1
          Party soldier ??? Old?! No offense, by the way had!
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 30 August 2019 17: 26
            +2
            And then ?! 65 will knock soon. And from 1980 to 91 the year was among the first fighters on the ideological front. How many lectures I read about the threat posed by world imperialism and how the Negroes are hanged in the States ... not to count! What insults can be if you honestly and well did your job.
        4. Astra wild
          Astra wild 30 August 2019 21: 31
          0
          Excuse me, but what army soldier: white, red or what?
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 31 August 2019 09: 07
            +1
            From 1980 to 91, what year was the army in the USSR?

            And then it was written this: "How many lectures I read about the threat from world imperialism and about how blacks are hanged in the States ... you cannot count!"
            What of this can be understood? Or is it completely incomprehensible written?
            1. Astra wild
              Astra wild 1 September 2019 07: 31
              0
              Vyacheslav Olegovich, usually old soldiers are proud of their service, but I don’t see pride in you that they served the party and the Soviet Union. So I asked
    2. Undecim
      Undecim 30 August 2019 17: 16
      +3
      To get to the Vatican’s secret archive is as easy as shelling pears. Access is provided there without restrictions.
      You just need to contact the prefect, His Excellency Sergio Pagano, present a university diploma of a historian, accreditation of the scientific institution you represent, as well as copies of your publications (journal articles, exhibition catalogs, books, etc.) in which they were used or quoted documents of archives. And go ahead. Every day, fifteen hundred people work there.
  22. gorenina91
    gorenina91 30 August 2019 14: 19
    +2
    The author refers only to the novel by Donna Woolfolk Cross (later), which is pretty good ...
    -But there is an earlier novel on this topic ...- this is the novel by Emmanuel Roidis "Pope John" .., written in the 19th century ....- Well, also wonderful ...
    -Both are very easy to read ... and one "complements" the other ...
    - It is quite possible that there was a woman on the papal throne ... (at all times there were enough adventurers ... - there were women-corsairs, there were women-hussars; women-queens still exist today; so ... it could be and a woman ...- "head of the Vatican" ...
  23. Brotherz
    Brotherz 30 August 2019 14: 20
    +1
    Ovation`Etymological Dictionary of Krylov`
    Borrowing from Latin, where ovatio is derived from the verb ovare - "to triumph".
    The version with an egg (Ovum from Latin) is doubtful due to the existence of ovations in ancient Rome, when the eggs of the popes still did not smell)))
    1. VLR
      30 August 2019 18: 31
      +2
      But we know many examples when a word changes its meaning. The Roman word for ovation and the present one do not coincide much. And the origin of the current word in the meaning of applause is precisely the Vatican, and not the ancient Roman. And there is also a cognate word "ovulation" - already a medical term. It is also associated with an egg, or rather an egg cell.
  24. bubalik
    bubalik 30 August 2019 15: 06
    +2
    In this engraving, the shape of the chair does not coincide with what we see in modern photography. Perhaps, over the centuries, there were different versions of this chair, but maybe the artist was not present at this ceremony, depicting it from the words of an eyewitness




    1. Phil77
      Phil77 30 August 2019 15: 57
      +2
      Sergey! Well, such an ambiguous picture !!!!!! I would not like to be in any place.
      1. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 30 August 2019 16: 35
        +5
        I would not want to be in any place.

        proctologist's hand is stuck in the patient. The two of them go to the traumatologist. The traumatologist sees this picture, and exclaims: "We have a trauma center, not a puppet theater!" stop drinks
        1. bubalik
          bubalik 30 August 2019 16: 45
          +2
          Pane Kohanku (Pane Kohanku) Today, 17: 35
          laughing good
          Wisdom is a specific state of mind ...
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 30 August 2019 17: 01
            +2
            Wisdom is a specific state of mind ...

            - Experienced, Lord?
            - No, God was merciful ... No.

            and I also really like this:
            He told you - if you will be the head of this monastery, then you will! angry You will establish a new order, organize a commune - "City of the Sun", suffragettes, sewing workshops, the emancipation of women from men, men from women .... the emancipation of all from everything! fellow drinks
        2. Phil77
          Phil77 30 August 2019 17: 25
          +2
          Well done !!!! At that time, while I am campaigning for a love of the book, is he about a proctologist?!?! ??! Who drinks beer ?????
          1. bubalik
            bubalik 30 August 2019 17: 27
            +2
            ,,, uh-huh, it's him in the "puppet theater" now looking for victims bully
            1. Phil77
              Phil77 30 August 2019 17: 28
              +2
              Seryog! Was there? (Sorry about you)
              1. bubalik
                bubalik 30 August 2019 17: 44
                +1
                Was there?
                ,,,Where belay ??
                1. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 30 August 2019 17: 52
                  +2
                  ,,,Where

                  at the puppet theater ... bully
                2. Phil77
                  Phil77 30 August 2019 18: 14
                  +1
                  In Karaganda !!!! On the site that I indicated.
                  1. bubalik
                    bubalik 30 August 2019 18: 44
                    +2
                    On the site,
                    ,, was, normal good .
                    at the puppet theater
                    the present smile what в1987 wassat crying
          2. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 30 August 2019 17: 40
            +2
            While I am campaigning for a love of the book, is he about a proctologist?!?! ??!

            it’s better to talk about a proctologist with those who understand you .... than another. what I even became extremely selective in communication! Probably getting old. request drinks there is a company of its own, familiar authors - and it’s good, but to go to other sections to swear - well, to a demon. I do not want. Already with whom it is possible, and so had an argument earlier. smile
            1. Phil77
              Phil77 30 August 2019 17: 42
              +1
              To old age as to China with cancer! And books ???? I adore them, like beer!
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 30 August 2019 17: 50
                +1
                To old age as to China cancer!

                hmm .. the first of September I would become a pensioner .. if I stayed to serve ten years ago ... laughing no, I'm not a beer. Depends on the mood. drinks
                1. Phil77
                  Phil77 30 August 2019 18: 11
                  +3
                  Something, I generally refuse to understand anything! I’m talking about books, they say it’s expensive, I offer a free website myself in it, everything is free. I don’t, people, physiognomy: I say that I love it to smell like a book! And what the hell stings, what kind of smell you are being torn to pieces at exorbitant prices?
                  1. Astra wild
                    Astra wild 30 August 2019 21: 43
                    +2
                    Seryozha, (nothing, what am I?), And which site is this? I love good books and preferably for free
                2. Phil77
                  Phil77 30 August 2019 18: 44
                  +2
                  So what? The site is free! for now use people!? No! What are they waiting for? Maybe VO is right. Scary if so ?!
  25. Astra wild
    Astra wild 30 August 2019 21: 49
    +2
    Valery, you have excellent work. We learn so much new and interesting.
    Try to continue the theme from the popes to the Amiens antipope
  26. kalibr
    kalibr 31 August 2019 09: 09
    +1
    Quote: Phil77
    maybe V.O. is right

    It can’t, but it’s right!
  27. helvetic
    helvetic 31 August 2019 17: 28
    0
    I read the comments. amused. There are many "thoughts" from scratch about "Judeo-Christian civilization" and "Tibetan-Aryan" nonsense (I am sure the authors of these pearls do not even know that the Torah, oh, how it evolved, and its ancient Greek translation is also not identical in everything to the modern Torah, not speaking already about the relationship between the Tanakh and the Old Testament; "nonsense" - is this about the very complicated religion of Bon?). A very cool discussion about the openness of archives. Interestingly, many have been to them? All over the world "filters" for those wishing to open unknown documents are not only different. They are also constantly changing (for the Vatican this is 200% true)
  28. helvetic
    helvetic 31 August 2019 17: 33
    -1
    Author, you've probably already opened the "Nestorian" chronicle (in the original, probably, there was "Nestorov", in the sense, the chronicle collection "PVL")? If you want to look at the very place in the Laurentian (for example) Chronicle (the most canonical list of PVL), where there should be about the "woman" - here it is: "In the year 6499 (991). Vladimir founded the city of Belgorod, and recruited people from other cities, and brought many people into it, for he loved that city. " http://expositions.nlr.ru/LaurentianCodex/_Project/page_Show.php
  29. Pavel57
    Pavel57 6 September 2019 20: 49
    0
    Here is an example that history is an exact science.