Military Review

AGM-114 Hellfire and 9K121 "Whirlwind" through the eyes of Sina Military

83
On August 21, the Chinese edition of Sina Military published an article on modern aviation weapons. Under the intriguing title “Russian and American Helicopter Missiles. Why is the Russian missile faster, but poorly sold? " lurked a curious attempt to analyze technical and commercial issues in the field of guided missile weapons. The Chinese media managed to find the answer to the question posed in the title of the article.



Mi-28 attack helicopter


Product Comparison


At the beginning of his article, Sina Military recalls that American aviation is good, and missiles are even better for it. Russia is also trying to create modern weapons, but in war conditions its products usually do not show their best. All this affects Russian military exports.

In investments in the defense sector, Russia does not lag behind the United States. The tabular characteristics of its missiles are not lower or even higher than that of American products. Despite this, it is not the first year that Russian aviation missiles are inferior to competitors in terms of sales.

Sina Military suggests considering in this context the main anti-tank weapons of the helicopters of the two countries. The USA represents the AGM-114 Hellfire rocket for the AH-64 Apache helicopter, and Russia - the AT-16 product (9K121 Whirlwind) for the Mi-28 helicopter.

The publication recalls that the AGM-114 was the world's first semi-active laser-guided helicopter missile. It was adopted in the mid-eighties and entered the range of ammunition of the Apache helicopter. Subsequently, the missile was included in the ammunition of the AH-1 and UH-60 helicopters. Over time, Hellfire became the most massive air-to-surface guided missile of its generation.

The maximum firing range of the AGM-114 reaches 8 km. Hellfire is divided into two generations. The first missiles have a semi-active laser seeker, and the second uses radar and infrared heads. First generation weapons are still being used more widely.

The Russian AT-16 / Whirlwind rocket also exists in two versions. The first version of this weapon in the type of guidance is only remotely similar to the American AGM-114. The carrier directs a laser beam at the target, and the rocket automatically flies along it. Not so long ago, tests of a new millimeter-wave radar head for the second generation of the Whirlwind were completed.

AGM-114 Hellfire and 9K121 "Whirlwind" through the eyes of Sina Military
Rocket complex "Whirlwind" and its TPK


The Russian Ministry of Defense claims that the AT-16 missile range reaches 10 km. In addition, the Whirlwind is faster than Hellfire. In flight, a Russian rocket accelerates to 610 m / s versus 392 m / s from a competitor. The flight of the "Whirlwind" to the maximum range takes only 28 seconds. At 8 km, the rocket flies in 23 seconds, at 6 km - in 14 seconds!

Sina Military recalls that Russia has repeatedly demonstrated its missiles to customers, but this did not help. There are few orders for such weapons. The two helicopter missiles in question use similar laser guidance systems. Why do they show different commercial results?

Rocket findings


The Chinese edition considers the reason for insufficient sales to be an outdated guidance technology used in the AT-16 complex. The missile is automatically held on by a laser beam illuminating the target. Because of this, the carrier helicopter must direct the laser at the target until it hits the rocket.

This type of guidance reduces the cost of equipment on the rocket. At the same time, it forces the carrier or helicopter to remain in the line of sight of the target for some time. Moreover, he is exposed to air defense or other enemy equipment.

American AGM-114 missiles with a semi-active laser seeker also require target illumination from a carrier or from the ground. However, at the same time, a more complex and expensive solution is used. The missile has an inertial navigation system that ensures its flight to a given point. Due to this, the carrier or ground gunner can turn on the target’s illumination only at the last moment before a missile hits, when the enemy does not have time to react to the attack.


Rocket AGM-114 Hellfire


A missile with such equipment is noticeably more complicated and more expensive, but due to this, risks for the carrier are reduced. At the same time, American industry continues to improve the Hellfire missiles. The new versions use infrared and radar seekers that do not need to be illuminated. In addition, a silent and almost imperceptible launch from the media is provided. All this makes the rocket even more deadly.

Reason for criticism


Comparison of two missiles from Sina Military is quite interesting, but not without weaknesses. The most noticeable is a mistake with Russian helicopters and their weapons. The 9K121 Whirlwind missile system is not used on Mi-28 helicopters. The latter solve the problems of defeating armored vehicles with the help of the Sturm and Attack missiles. However, the Whirlwind is indeed in service with the Air Force. Such weapons are used by Ka-52 attack helicopters.

Comparison of several versions of the AGM-114 rocket with just one Russian-made rocket, which results in the Whirlwind being an insufficiently universal complex, raises questions. Other Russian air-to-surface guided missiles, including newer and better, not mentioned and not considered.

Comparison of tabular data and characteristics looks quite objective, but misses important questions. Indicators of hit accuracy were ignored. Also, the parameters of combat units, the effectiveness of defeating armored targets, etc. are not considered.

Also, the Chinese edition was limited only to technical issues. For a detailed study of the commercial achievements and prospects of weapons, a number of other factors should be considered. Helicopter missile sales are affected not only by technical features, but also by the supply of aircraft, economic indicators, policies, etc.

Difference in concepts


It is worth recalling the important features of the two missiles, also missed by the Sina Military. Hellfire and Whirlwind products differ from each other not only in technical parameters, but also at the level of concepts underlying the projects. At the time of their creation, in the seventies and eighties, in the USA and the USSR there were different views on anti-tank weapons for combat helicopters.


Helicopter AH-64 Apache


The aim of the AGM-114 project was to create a rocket operating on the basis of the “launched-forgot” principle. Due to this, it was planned to increase the safety of the carrier helicopter upon receipt of the desired combat effectiveness. The complexity and high cost of such a rocket faded into the background. In the future, this approach allowed the use of the AGM-114A missile as a platform to create more effective weapons that receive new components.

In our country, the creation of “launched-forgot” missiles at that time was considered inappropriate for reasons of complexity and cost. All expensive and complex control equipment was proposed to be placed on an aircraft carrier or on a ground platform. Due to this, the ratio of combat qualities and cost met the requirements of the military.

Similar principles were used both in the Whirlwind project and in the creation of the later Sturm and Attacks. However, the customer’s views are changing, and new models of domestic aviation missiles receive autonomous guidance.

The differences in basic concepts and the difference in the results obtained could indeed have an impact on the export prospects of weapons. AGM-114 missiles of all modifications are in service with almost three dozen countries. Russian "Whirlwinds" are so far delivered only to the Russian Air Force. At the same time, export Sturm missiles can compete with Hellfire - about 30 operators. "Attacks" have not yet received much distribution.

Russian and American helicopter missiles reviewed by Sina Military did indeed show different results on the market. However, this situation is unlikely to be reduced to the principle of guidance alone. There are other important factors, and it is simply impossible to determine the exact effect of each. However, it is difficult to dispute the fact that AGM-114 sells well abroad, and only Russia has “Whirlwinds” so far.

Article 美俄 武装 直升机 导弹 竞赛 俄 导弹 速度 更快 为何 不 畅销:
https://mil.news.sina.com.cn/jssd/2019-08-21/doc-ihytcern2348652.shtml
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  1. polpot
    polpot 28 August 2019 05: 28
    +6
    The supply of weapons in the modern world is a more political process than the competition of gunsmiths, and the US is very good at pushing allies to purchase its weapons.
    1. Nycomed
      Nycomed 28 August 2019 05: 55
      -7
      And we do not "push", we simply give away for nothing under a secured loan. stop
    2. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 28 August 2019 07: 37
      +1
      Quote: polpot
      political process

      Quote: polpot
      The US is very good at it.

      That's right! Nothing to add! request
    3. Lopatov
      Lopatov 28 August 2019 08: 00
      +2
      Quote: polpot
      and the United States knows how to push allies to buy its weapons.

      Judging by the latest events, they were "able".
      And nothing helps, neither dumping nor political pressure.
      And even the donation, which constitutes a significant part of American "exports", does not help. As well as unsecured "lending"
    4. smart ass
      smart ass 28 August 2019 11: 23
      +4
      Give me a shot and forget!
    5. yehat
      yehat 28 August 2019 12: 59
      0
      it is also a matter of standards.
      the Warsaw Pact would be alive, another big question, whose missiles would be better distributed.
      1. 3danimal
        3danimal 28 August 2019 13: 29
        -6
        With the appearance of great financial problems for the USSR, as well as its refusal to coerce (the threat of force, a'la Czechoslovakia 1968), members of the "indestructible" police department quickly left it.
  2. Ros 56
    Ros 56 28 August 2019 05: 56
    -2
    In terms of ratings of our weapons, the Chinese are equivalent to the Indians, the same dances with tambourines. We quickly groan Russian and start selling our fakes.
    Enough of our babysitting, it's time to put in place.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 28 August 2019 08: 10
      +5
      In our country, the creation of “launched-forgot” missiles at that time was considered inappropriate for reasons of complexity and cost. All expensive and complex control equipment was proposed to be placed on an aircraft carrier or on a ground platform. Due to this, the ratio of combat qualities and cost met the requirements of the military.

      Here the thesis about "cheapness" is very controversial. Firstly, when using third-generation missiles, they ensure safety, and secondly, greater fire performance (if you estimate, one helicopter with third-generation ATGM systems can replace two or three with Atkas)
      That is, saving on the cost of missiles, you have to invest more money in helicopters to ensure equal efficiency and combat stability of units.
    2. Ros 56
      Ros 56 28 August 2019 12: 23
      +2
      Judging by the downsides, silent Chinese started up on our site.
    3. vladcub
      vladcub 28 August 2019 15: 00
      +2
      How do you imagine it in practice. Take by the gulp: "buy or you a skiff? Or:" well, fi on you, others will buy "?
      Now there are many sellers on the arms market: America, Russia, China, South Korea, (the DPRK is also trying to "squeeze in") England, France I have not listed all those who have missiles. What quality is another question
  3. g1washntwn
    g1washntwn 28 August 2019 08: 00
    +5
    The aim of the AGM-114 project was to create a rocket operating on the basis of the “launched-forgot” principle.

    Maybe the target was, but only AGM-114L and the British version with the name Brimstone (and Brimston-2) are available from "fire and forget". It's all about the price, where systems that do not require guidance are very expensive.
    An ordinary Hellfire with a laser in the range of $ 60-65 thousand, a semi-active laser + INS is already $ 94 thousand, and the British Brimston got out for $ 260 thousand (although they promised each for "a little more than £ 100,000" ~ $ 123 thousand).
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 28 August 2019 08: 19
      +2
      Quote: g1washntwn
      and the British Brimstone crawled out for $ 260 thousand

      Strictly speaking, not "British", but "designed for the UK

      Expensive, because it is a "wagon". There is an expensive "head" with an active radar and a semi-active laser
      Therefore, for the ongoing local wars, they are forced to purchase cheaper Helfaers with LGSN. But in high-intensity wars, generalists are much more effective.

      Quote: g1washntwn
      Maybe the target was, but only AGM-114L and the British version with the name Brimstone (and Brimston-2) are available from the "shot and forget".

      You forgot the most common, SPIKE-ER
      1. g1washntwn
        g1washntwn 28 August 2019 08: 48
        +2
        I agree, by order, but the US is not in a hurry to do something, cheaper AGM-114R are riveting to themselves (which we must compare with 9A417 and there and there the INS combo + semi-active laser). For a high-intensity war and massive tank breakthroughs in Europe are not going to. Rafalsky Spike did not grow on the basis of Hellfire, and therefore did not say anything about him and so on, for example, from promising ones - Tula Hermes ...
    2. PilotS37
      PilotS37 28 August 2019 17: 23
      +1
      Quote: g1washntwn
      Maybe the target was, but only AGM-114L and the British version with the name Brimstone (and Brimston-2) are available from "fire and forget". It's all about the price, where systems that do not require guidance are very expensive.
      An ordinary Hellfire with a laser in the range of $ 60-65 thousand, a semi-active laser + INS is already $ 94 thousand, and the British Brimston got out for $ 260 thousand (although they promised each for "a little more than £ 100,000" ~ $ 123 thousand).

      The garbage is that Hell also needs illumination, and until the rocket hits the target, the helicopter cannot leave the firing position! Yes, it does not shine all the time, but it can fly off somewhere, but not far ... At the same time, the rocket flies 1,5 times slower, and this is quite likely critical: how long will it take for the air defense to "process" the helicopter ? - In less than 14 seconds. (like the "Whirlwind"), in 18 sec. or 22 (like Hull (counting in proportion to the speeds))? ..
      1. g1washntwn
        g1washntwn 29 August 2019 07: 17
        +1
        Yes, except for AGM-114K there was no re-capture after the loss of the beam, so now they are switching to "Romeo" with a combined head. In terms of reaction speed, yes, too, but here the Americans, within their framework of ambush and stealth tactics, where ATGM flight speed is paid less attention than reducing the visibility of both the carriers and the missiles themselves. Third-party guidance and network centrics increase the survival rate of the carrier, and alone and with bare hands at the bear - this is for the Russians. smile
  4. asv363
    asv363 28 August 2019 08: 15
    0
    American AGM-114 missiles with a semi-active laser seeker also require target illumination from a carrier or from the ground. However, at the same time, a more complex and expensive solution is used. The missile has an inertial navigation system that ensures its flight to a given point. Due to this, the carrier or ground gunner can turn on the target’s illumination only at the last moment before the rocket hits, when the enemy does not have time to react to the attack.

    Is the tank standing still? If in motion, the INS will take the rocket into the milk with illumination "at the last moment".
    1. g1washntwn
      g1washntwn 28 August 2019 09: 08
      +5
      ANN allows you to set the direction to lead, and semi-active means that the backlight can be turned on at any time, and not just at the final stage. Is shooting a wild boar familiar? The radiation sensors in the AZ of the tank react only to the beam directed at the tank, adjust the anti-tank system so that the guidance beam coincides with the target just before the strike. By the way, Americans even teach their tactics such tactics.
      1. asv363
        asv363 28 August 2019 10: 12
        0
        You're right, here I probably hurried.
  5. Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 28 August 2019 08: 25
    +3
    1.Not so long ago, tests of a new millimeter-wave radar head for the second generation of the Whirlwind were completed. Where did the "old" go? belay At least the author would mention the name! If you dig into the history of the Vikhr ATGM system, then the following picture emerges for me: there are 9M127 missiles and there is 9M227 ... True, there are deviations in this family, but I'm talking about the "main" ... generations (1M9) exist, they are "little, little", but they are produced and have a range of up to 127 km with "laser-beam" guidance ... But few know that there is also the 10nd generation of the "Vortex" -2M9 "family"! "Laser-beam" 227M9 has a range of up to 227-12 km and a speed greater than that of 14M9 ... And also, in the 127M9 "line" there are missiles with seeker! : with IR.GOS (thermal) and passive radar seeker ... But, for some reason, they were not adopted for service and were not put into production ...
    2.The maximum firing range of the AGM-114 reaches 8 km. Hellfire is divided into two generations. The missiles of the first have a semi-active laser seeker, and the second uses radar and infrared heads 8 kilometers ? Well, well ... everything can be ... I will not look in the Internet, Wikipedia ... I am in the old fashioned way ... from memory! "Laser" "Hellfire" ... that, yes ... 8 km ... But "Longbow" is up to 11 km, as my memory tells me ... (10-11 km) ... guidance system: INS + active radar seeker! There are no "infrared sensors" in the GOS ... Even in the English "Brimstone" there is no ... there -AR.GSN + PAL.GSN ... "Infrared sensors" appeared on the newest JAGM ...
    3.
  6. Ingvar 72
    Ingvar 72 28 August 2019 08: 34
    +2
    I heard a joke of the American military about Hellfire comparing a rocket with a BMW (the cost is almost the same). Start - and BMW flew to the goal! wassat It is also interesting to compare the cost of these missiles, along with TXT.
  7. Jurkovs
    Jurkovs 28 August 2019 08: 54
    +1
    The missile has an inertial navigation system ... Thanks to this, the carrier ... can turn on the target’s illumination only at the last moment before the missile hits, when the enemy does not have time to react to the attack.

    Do the Chinese really think that the carrier will launch a rocket, then it will sit down, sit a bit, take off and at the last moment give a flare. No carrier all this time will be available for means of its detection and destruction.
    They themselves noted that the speed of the Whirlwind is twice as high, and this allows it to fly very little time. But they did not draw from this conclusion that this time is not critical for a helicopter, and they simply do not have time to detect and hit it.
    This is not the first time the Chinese have given out very strange analytics. It would be better to be silent sometimes.
    1. Snakebyte
      Snakebyte 28 August 2019 09: 29
      +1
      Quote: Jurkovs
      Do the Chinese really think that the carrier will launch a rocket, then it will sit down, sit a bit, take off and at the last moment give a flare. No carrier all this time will be available for means of its detection and destruction.

      The media will hang, hiding behind the folds of the terrain or other shelters (forest, building, etc.). And at the right moment it rises and highlights the target.
      Quote: Jurkovs
      They themselves noted that the speed of the Whirlwind is twice as high, and this allows it to fly very little time. But they did not draw from this conclusion that this time is not critical for a helicopter, and they simply do not have time to detect and hit it.

      EMNIP, the reaction time of the air defense complex to detect the target before the fire is 5-6 seconds. Have time to detect and shoot back.
      The Whirlwind was designed to operate from a range unattainable for the enemy's air defense systems of that time (4-5 km for the Rapier and Chapparel).
      It is also worth considering that the Hellfire will hit the target from above, where there is no thick armor. And "Whirlwind" - in the frontal projection, and not the fact that it will break through.
      1. asv363
        asv363 28 August 2019 10: 36
        0
        Quote: Snakebyte
        And "Whirlwind" - in the frontal projection, and not the fact that it will break through.

        Why only in the frontal projection?
        1. Snakebyte
          Snakebyte 28 August 2019 14: 13
          0
          Quote: asv363
          Why only in the frontal projection?

          Well, maybe on board, if you manage to take a position from the flank (which is far from always possible). Usually tanks in battle turn their forehead towards the enemy.
          It doesn't matter to Hellfire. This means that the helicopter can take a position for reasons of stealth, without worrying about entering the flank.
    2. DimerVladimer
      DimerVladimer 29 August 2019 12: 07
      0
      Quote: Jurkovs
      that this time is not critical for a helicopter, and they simply don’t have time to detect and hit it.


      Not quite right.
      For example, a duel of a tank and a helicopter armed with Helfire took place in Iraq.

      The tank rolled out from behind the house, fired a shot from a cannon at a helicopter and hid behind the house again, tearing the target to the operator of guidance and missiles did not fall into it, did not manage to fly, although the distance did not exceed 5 km (these are still old versions of Helfire).
      So 12-15 seconds is enough for the tank to leave the shelter, to shoot accurately and go into the shelter.

      Yes - in the end, the tank was still destroyed by a third missile, but the pilots (in my opinion a British helicopter) suffered fear ...
  8. Operator
    Operator 28 August 2019 13: 00
    0
    And "Hellfire" and "Whirlwind" - both are outdated: now in the trend of the UR with an uncooled thermal imaging seeker, homing at the target image stored in the memory of the seeker, or reflected laser radiation when illuminating the target from the UAV.
  9. yehat
    yehat 28 August 2019 13: 04
    0
    Quote: Spade
    Here the thesis about "cheapness" is very controversial. Firstly, when using third-generation missiles, they ensure safety, and secondly, greater fire performance (if you estimate, one helicopter with third-generation ATGM systems can replace two or three with Atkas)
    That is, saving on the cost of missiles, you have to invest more money in helicopters to ensure equal efficiency and combat stability of units.

    again you are trying to measure from your bell tower. And then they thought otherwise.
    Preparing for a global war, with hundreds of helicopters.
    Are you sure that 3 generation rockets can do enough and in time for such a conflict?
    Here came 48 thousand Warsaw Pact tanks and about 150 thousand other armored vehicles. you have 2 weeks while they go to the Channel. How many "good" rockets can you launch and make?
    So they argued in our country. Finally, take a 3 generation rocket - it costs $ 230k
    Used T72 costs only 4-5 times more expensive.
    It’s just that I throw the direction of those arguments why we preferred to make simple guidance heads.
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 28 August 2019 20: 37
      -1
      The used T-72s were pretty well carried out with A-10 guns in 1991m. This is about cheapness. It is important that nationals are also cheap.
      1. 5-9
        5-9 30 August 2019 10: 46
        0
        Faq ???? Can this wonderful theme be developed with links?
        And then I just saw a coloring book for the A-10 pilot ...
        1. 3danimal
          3danimal 30 August 2019 15: 23
          -1
          Most of the Iraqi tanks in 1991 were destroyed by aircraft. A considerable share of this amount is A-10th.
  10. Military77
    Military77 28 August 2019 13: 44
    +3
    On investments in the defense sector, Russia does not lag behind the United States

    In what units, absolute ($) or relative (%)? If in absolute - then this is complete nonsense.
  11. yehat
    yehat 28 August 2019 14: 07
    +3
    Quote: 3danimal
    With the appearance of great financial problems for the USSR, as well as its refusal to coerce (the threat of force, a'la Czechoslovakia 1968), members of the "indestructible" police department quickly left it

    do not tell tales!
    in Czechoslovakia, only Prague was rowdy, and then it was mainly young people who had been treated for a long time by the special services of the Federal Republic of Germany. - the Czechs themselves actively participated in its suppression (surprise), but not from the capital (and there is quite a lot of evidence that they very positively greeted the coalition of "occupiers") as well as neighbors in the Warsaw Pact. my brother often travels to the Czech Republic, communicates and asks different Czechs. Many of them strongly dislike the Prague Spring. This is just a stupid Czech swamp area.
    It was especially piquant that the Germans from the GDR (hello 38 years old!) Also entered the Czech Republic and they too were greeted with joy.
    Finally, the USSR had financial problems only because Gorbachev proposed switching to CMEA in dollar payments (this is about the same Masachism as the United States will switch to trade with Europe in rubles)
    And finally, the majority of the VD members did not come out - they were kicked out. Look at the dock. films about the collapse of VD.
    And I’ll add - look at the blogs how ordinary Europeans from Yugoslavia, Hungary, Poland, East Germany and even Greece speak warmly about the times when the VD was. I read them, ask and go nuts how brainwashed by people like you.
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 28 August 2019 20: 53
      -1
      To begin with, back in Brezhnev’s times, the Union was tightly hooked on the trade in hydrocarbons. And a threefold decline in oil prices could not but affect the economy.
      Next - disastrous mismanagement. There were many terms: postscripts, fraud, etc.) Construction "on a holiday date" with violations of technology, storming at the expense of reliability.
      Or “innovation” through a decree of the ministry. The situation is incomprehensible to developed cap. countries where enterprises themselves are looking for something new to increase efficiency.
      The bureaucracy took over all spheres of activity, which killed the initiative.
      An economic collapse was inevitable, coupled with large foreign policy expenditures (and how to refuse them, the prophet predicted the victory of communism - it should be brought closer).
  12. Klingon
    Klingon 28 August 2019 17: 09
    0
    and Nuka show us Chinese competitive missiles, otherwise it’s much to talk about others
  13. Kaw
    Kaw 28 August 2019 17: 44
    -1
    Other Russian air-to-surface guided missiles, including newer and better, not mentioned and not considered.

    What kind of author did this mean, Attack and Sturm, which work for 6-4 km and also only in the direct line of sight of the target?
  14. Wasilii
    Wasilii 28 August 2019 18: 58
    -1
    What Sina, what Sohu, these are all Chinese analogs of Yandex.News. Anonymous bloggers pump all kinds of garbage from Wikipedia, for the sole purpose of gaining views, likes and money for advertising. The mere fact that it was published there already makes it clear that the author is unprofessional and it is not clear only one thing, why all this should be discussed. Or are you chasing the views too?
  15. Earnest
    Earnest 28 August 2019 22: 07
    +3
    Quote: 3danimal
    The used T-72s were pretty well carried out with A-10 guns in 1991m. This is about cheapness. It is important that nationals are also cheap.

    A10 would not be able to fly over them with all desire, because air defense in the Land of Soviets was by no means in the pen
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 29 August 2019 15: 43
      -1
      Iraq’s air defense could not be called weak. They carried it out (more than 2000 HARM missiles), cutting out a number of parts by 98%. And after that the used t-72 was gutted.
      1. 5-9
        5-9 30 August 2019 10: 47
        +1
        For the war with the United States + half the world of Iraq’s air defense was not that weak - almost powerless ...
        1. 3danimal
          3danimal 30 August 2019 15: 25
          0
          It was obsolete, the concept itself was obsolete. - Without control of their skies by aviation - ground systems were quickly knocked out by cruise missiles and PRR.
  16. yehat
    yehat 29 August 2019 11: 11
    +1
    Quote: 3danimal
    To begin with, back in Brezhnev’s times, the Union was tightly hooked on the trade in hydrocarbons. And a threefold decline in oil prices could not but affect the economy.
    Next - disastrous mismanagement. There were many terms: postscripts, fraud, etc.) Construction "on a holiday date" with violations of technology, storming at the expense of reliability.
    Or “innovation” through a decree of the ministry. The situation is incomprehensible to developed cap. countries where enterprises themselves are looking for something new to increase efficiency.
    The bureaucracy took over all spheres of activity, which killed the initiative.
    An economic collapse was inevitable, coupled with large foreign policy expenditures (and how to refuse them, the prophet predicted the victory of communism - it should be brought closer)

    to begin with, I’ll draw a line right away - with all the shortcomings of the USSR, it could well continue to exist perfectly
    there was not a single critical economic or political factor for destruction.
    he was destroyed only by betrayal of the very top.
    Finally, by what you said. The influence of hydrocarbons is greatly exaggerated and the sense of a change in prices generally began to matter only when the calculations in the CMEA were converted to dollars. Before that, the USSR was of little importance how much it cost. In general, a lot of problems arose when market prices, profitability, and payback were introduced instead of actual indicators. This is what killed initiative, not socialism.
    There was cheap show-off and they did harm, but this is a decoration, a trifle.
    Next - disastrous mismanagement.

    it appeared when the influence of the nomenclature (not only the party) began to massively overcome the power of local councils. And this is also an element of the destruction of socialism, the problem appeared after, and not for a reason.
    here you mean the incorrect permutation of cause and effect.
    and finally, about foreign policy spending. YES, financially the USSR was very ineffective, but given its growth due to populism and simplicity of methods, it turned out that it was much more profitable than today's "frugality". And ... can you tell me how many billions Russia has wasted on "foreign policy expenditures" with Ukraine, Europe and the United States?
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 29 August 2019 15: 59
      -1
      Listen, the total planned economy is a dead end. Take a look around - there are plenty of examples.
      China's successes are connected precisely with private commercial activity. As a result, flexibility.
      It is good that pragmatics allowed us to move away from dogma.
    2. 3danimal
      3danimal 29 August 2019 16: 01
      0
      Almost from the very beginning, the Central Committee lowered its will from top to bottom, right down to the advice. The regional judge could not cancel the Secretary General’s decree. Well, the leader would be completely afraid.
    3. 3danimal
      3danimal 29 August 2019 16: 08
      0
      Could exist, living in a vacuum. People saw life in developed countries, compared. Moreover, the leadership also had thoughts of fallibility.
      To organize a total dictate again - there was no desire (fortunately). North Korea is the opposite.
    4. 3danimal
      3danimal 29 August 2019 16: 11
      0
      One can only try to imagine how many billions the USSR spent on outside populism, containing a huge number of parasites.
      And in the countries over which he gained control, he created the same ineffective systems based only on censorship and secret police.
  17. yehat
    yehat 29 August 2019 16: 34
    +1
    Quote: 3danimal
    Listen, the total planned economy is a dead end. Take a look around - there are plenty of examples.

    Well, yes, the dead-end Boeing with its dead-end total planned economy is bent so that everyone would.
    where do you get your mossy slogans from?
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 29 August 2019 17: 23
      -1
      There is no Gosplan over Boeing, as well as over Adidas, Volkswagen, etc.
      In addition, many of the largest companies just 40 years ago simply did not exist. They were created by people, as a private initiative.
      In the Union there was a ban (criminal article) on private economic activity. Steve Jobs and Wozniak, having sold a couple of computers, would have received a term. Dead end. The Chinese came out of it.
      The slogans of modern "communists" are just with you.
  18. yehat
    yehat 29 August 2019 16: 37
    0
    Quote: 3danimal
    Almost from the very beginning, the Central Committee lowered its will from top to bottom, right down to the advice. The regional judge could not cancel the Secretary General’s decree. Well, the leader would be completely afraid.

    read the real correspondence, specific memos and orders of Stalin,
    you will see that the local authorities were not small and the PB did not always consider it possible to intervene,
    in spite of their power to do so. but if the locals had the right to cancel the orders of the center on the principle "we wanted it so", the state would collapse.
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 29 August 2019 17: 24
      0
      In the United States, local courts have such opportunities (repeal of a presidential decree) and nothing holds.
      In Switzerland, decentralization is very high, on all important issues of the referendum (and people really study, figuring out what kind of initiative will be considered).
  19. yehat
    yehat 29 August 2019 16: 38
    0
    Quote: 3danimal
    held only by censorship and secret police.

    where did you find the secret police? And many successful states are uncensored?
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 29 August 2019 17: 28
      -2
      European Union, USA, Canada ... One cannot call for murders there. But no problem - criticize the government, officials (up to the president and prime minister).
      1. yehat
        yehat 29 August 2019 17: 34
        +1
        in these countries there is a lot of tem-taboo. I began to drown there and you are an outcast, which is almost equal to the destruction of a career. Try talking about the puppet clan or about the brutality of the police to blacks.
        1. 3danimal
          3danimal 29 August 2019 17: 44
          -2
          You really don’t see the difference? The Union was given a term for public criticism. In Stalin's time - in a concentration camp for processing + family link. It is enough to say "Stalin -")
          1. svp67
            svp67 29 August 2019 17: 48
            0
            Quote: 3danimal
            The Union was given a term for public criticism. In Stalin's time - in a concentration camp for processing + family link. It is enough to say "Stalin -")

            Yeah, this is especially evident from the fate of this man.
            1. 3danimal
              3danimal 29 August 2019 18: 00
              0
              So he was silent in a rag during the life of the "leader."
        2. 3danimal
          3danimal 29 August 2019 17: 47
          0
          About the police: they now go polls with registrars. And there are a huge number of episodes (they are laid out in access), where inadequate rush with a knife, a gun. Including black.
          There is also an abuse of power by the police. There are also registrars to help.
  20. yehat
    yehat 29 August 2019 16: 48
    +1
    Quote: 3danimal
    Iraq's air defense could not be called weak

    The air defense of Iraq had a decent set of equipment, but the personnel was poorly protected or not masked and very limited in quality. They suffered excessive losses, because if they did as they were taught in the USSR (and in Egypt), then the Americans would not be able to suppress air defense even by half.
    But the Iraqis, unlike the Egyptians, who fled at the start of the battle, had much more stamina.
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 29 August 2019 17: 30
      0
      Against them was superiority in PRR carriers, as intelligence, the presence and use of low-flying cruise missiles. It would just take more time.
  21. yehat
    yehat 29 August 2019 17: 32
    0
    Quote: 3danimal
    It would just take more time.

    Americans faced a severe shortage of ur
    if they needed twice as many missiles to launch, they simply wouldn’t be found,
    and it would remain only to throw laser-guided bombs.
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 29 August 2019 17: 58
      0
      After a fight, they do not wave their fists.
      Separately, the losses of the Coalition bear upon themselves.
      1. yehat
        yehat 29 August 2019 18: 18
        0
        Quote: 3danimal
        Separately, the losses of the Coalition bear upon themselves.

        what do you mean?
        I personally am not interested in the absolute numbers of losses - there is a lot of cunning and there is nothing to compare them with
        but the consumption of ammunition for the destruction of a typical target is interesting.
        and yet - do not read pro-American agitation, when in 2 days of fighting the Iraqi tank division was able to knock out only 2 of the 4 Chieftains of Kuwait.
        And those without replenishment of ammunition destroyed 25 cars. Leave this nonsense to those who wrote it.
        There are real reviews of the crews of chiefs who frankly said - T72 in front of us at a distance of less than a kilometer - a guaranteed khan and very highly spoke about the combat effectiveness of these tanks.
        I’ll also add that the Desert Storm is one of the best in the history of the US Army in terms of tactics of operations,
        this cannot be taken away, but on the other hand, they had an absolute superiority in intelligence, mobility, firepower and it would be strange to expect less if you had time to prepare.
        therefore, back to the expense per unit destroyed. It can be installed and compared to the truth.
        Iraq suffered losses of about 120 thousand killed.
        How did they attack him? 2600 aircraft (approximately 1 aircraft for 20 people, which already does not look cool in terms of efficiency) 116 thousand sorties (almost 1 sortie per 1 dead)
        in general, it is possible not to continue further. The effectiveness of combat use is not impressive.
        Better than Vietnam, but worse than Israel in its wars with the Arabs.
        1. 3danimal
          3danimal 29 August 2019 20: 28
          0
          Is this not an example of how to fight effectively? A relatively small number of technology (but advanced) and skill.
          About the dangerous T-72. Had he been at a distance of 100m and had time to shoot the threat would have been even higher. The trouble is that he was not allowed to approach this distance (with rare exceptions that only confirm the rule).
          They used to ignoblely beat with aircraft, or at night with a thermal imager, and even with uranium BOPS.
          Efficiency above all.
  22. yehat
    yehat 29 August 2019 17: 35
    0
    Quote: 3danimal
    In the United States, local courts have such opportunities (repeal of a presidential decree) and nothing holds.
    In Switzerland, decentralization is very high, on all important issues of the referendum (and people really study, figuring out what kind of initiative will be considered).

    there are rational ideas in these systems, but there are also disadvantages. For example, a Swiss referendum on the purchase of military aircraft.
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 29 August 2019 17: 50
      -2
      Swiss citizens believe that they have the right to decide what their money is spent on.
      There is generally an important difference between a citizen and a citizen. The latter pay and keep quiet.
  23. yehat
    yehat 29 August 2019 17: 37
    0
    Quote: 3danimal
    There is no Gosplan over Boeing, as well as over Adidas, Volkswagen, etc.

    )))) I have no words!
    Do you know that the US government has a whole set of committees that monitor the loading of the Big Four of the US military-industrial complex and intervene quite a lot with regulatory functions?
    This is the same Gosplan, and maybe worse!
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 29 August 2019 17: 54
      0
      This is demagoguery. Very clear and simple.
      We remove from the example the core companies of the US military-industrial complex. Gosplan official over Amazon ?? Ferrari and Porsche? Redmond Dyson Bullshit)
      Decentralization and flexibility.
      And the lack of the term "ministry decree on the introduction of innovation." Everyone runs after them, competition.
  24. yehat
    yehat 29 August 2019 17: 48
    0
    Quote: 3danimal
    The Union was given a term for public criticism.

    where did you get this? Who when received such a deadline?
    Or maybe they got it for another?
    As in the story with the ice cream girl.
    my mother was a deputy, I saw this kitchen from the first row - say what you want
    and he spoke. I had clashes with the party leadership on the topic of authoritarianism.
    it was simply impossible to cover Brezhnev with a mate and a number of other acts in the style of horse racing
    and the critics were heaps!
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 29 August 2019 20: 20
      0
      About the deputy’s mother: didn’t she receive a part of her salary by Vneshposlostorg checks?
      1. yehat
        yehat 30 August 2019 11: 00
        0
        she received nothing. The post of deputy, except for acquaintances, did not give anything.
        1. 3danimal
          3danimal 30 August 2019 15: 28
          -1
          So dating at that time cost more than a salary. A familiar butcher, a familiar zavmag ...
          And nearby, in Germany, people, in principle, did not know about the difficulties of getting anything, even with money.
          ... dogmatists organized an experiment in the size of the state.
  25. yehat
    yehat 29 August 2019 17: 52
    0
    Quote: 3danimal
    Swiss citizens believe that they have the right to decide what their money is spent on.

    Yes, let them have the right, only they have no brains to make an informed decision.
    Well, every Swiss does not own a military education in order to somehow consciously solve this.
  26. yehat
    yehat 29 August 2019 17: 55
    0
    Quote: 3danimal
    There are also registrars to help.

    and you have not heard recent stories at all, where did you justify shooting without reason?
    or cheating registrars like shouting "I think he has a gun!" or "you threaten the police, we have to use force." A Russian American policeman talks about this on the goblin channel.
    you are either a very naive person with wide ears hung with noodles, or a cynical provocateur.
    and any American will give you advice - "so that there are no unnecessary problems, do not even start talking to a policeman."
  27. yehat
    yehat 29 August 2019 18: 28
    +1
    Quote: 3danimal
    Ferrari and Porsche

    you are drifting more and more. This is not the USA
    but besides these firms, check out a series of scandals that do not seek to inflate too much in the media - especially energy, monopolies, federal graters.
    finally, remember that it is the military-industrial complex that forms the basis of US industry and its contribution to GDP, not McDonald's. And in the Senate there is a committee that is constantly monitoring the most important (recently the list was of 115 companies) companies in the United States - from banks to the same McDonald's.
    And to make it completely clear to you - look at least one hearing from the Senate Committee related to the activities of a company. You can start, for example, with the oil workers who worked in Alaska.
    Not tales from their newspapers and stats. agencies, but look at real events.
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 29 August 2019 20: 13
      -2
      A Senate committee considers and determines how many burgers to produce? Or cola bottles?
      No, if it tracks, it is only general indicators.
      It’s strange not to see the difference.
      And where are the deadlines for private business? Oh yes, they were in the USSR.
      Here you are simply trying to pull by the ears and confusing the facts to declare: that in the USA, that in the Union - a state plan. Planning is: state budgets, federal, plans for the development and production of companies. So you can agree that there was a market economy in the Union - there were markets: collective farmers, gardeners. What is absolute absurdity. The approaches are very different.
      Pulling out local issues in the States does not prove your claim.
      The goblin, in my opinion, is an extremely biased person, de facto a propagandist. Maybe for money, maybe by conviction - I don’t know.
      The argument you presented in defense of a totally planned economy has been heard on its channel. As about the market)
  28. Earnest
    Earnest 29 August 2019 21: 05
    0
    Quote: 3danimal
    Iraq’s air defense could not be called weak. They carried it out (more than 2000 HARM missiles), cutting out a number of parts by 98%. And after that the used t-72 was gutted.

    Let's start with the fact that it was disabled by using "bookmarks", or "undeclared features". For example, everything that was French. And then HARM, etc.
  29. LastPS
    LastPS 29 August 2019 21: 50
    0
    Just look at the number of Hellfire carriers and their prevalence in the world. In fact, all cobras and Apaches use them - against the background of this number, any number of other ATGMs of the third generation and above is simply negligible. Even if Vortex had the "let-and-forget" technology it would not change anything at all.
  30. yehat
    yehat 30 August 2019 10: 59
    0
    Quote: 3danimal
    Is this not an example of how to fight effectively? A relatively small number of technology (but advanced) and skill.

    nifiga own 2600 aircraft - little equipment?
    yes allies during ww2 bombed so many half-reich.
    in addition, Iraq was surrounded only by the latest tanks in parts of more than 800,
    and even more BMP and other armored vehicles.
  31. yehat
    yehat 30 August 2019 11: 05
    0
    Quote: 3danimal
    A Senate committee considers and determines how many burgers to produce? Or cola bottles?
    No, if it tracks, it is only general indicators.
    It’s strange not to see the difference.

    You messed up everything again.
    the economy in cap.countries is never measured by the number of pieces — it was only in the USSR that it was before the reforms of Kuusinen and Kosygin. And there they measure turnovers, profits, the degree of diversification, capitalization and other indicators. And regulation takes place within this framework.
  32. yehat
    yehat 30 August 2019 16: 31
    0
    Quote: 3danimal
    So dating at that time cost more than a salary. A familiar butcher, a familiar zavmag ...

    are you all trying to mark corruption ... not everyone in the USSR was corrupt skins!
    often, connections were needed simply to level the idiotic distribution system in the USSR, which, by the way, was created not by the system, but by specific odious individuals.
    An example of this is the aunt who led the base in my homeland. Oh and a vile person.
    Imagine a picture that for many years the city almost did not order shoes, except for small parties for "important" people. There were no children's shoes at all. But there were all sorts of delicacies in the shops, and there were a lot of electronics in short supply. Several times they tried to expel her from the party, but the lured individuals each time did not allow her to vote like that.
  33. Russian Central Asian
    Russian Central Asian 18 September 2019 20: 31
    +1
    The question of the layman, is it really impossible to place the target illumination laser on a quadrocopter or something else. The pinwheel took off from behind a hill, found a target, identified a stranger, fired a rocket and hid behind a hill again, and while the rocket is approaching the target, the target is illuminated by a laser from a drone.
  34. Basarev
    Basarev 28 September 2019 22: 32
    0
    But in fact, the reason for the creation of the second-watering complex, which was already obsolete then, was completely bottom-up Soviet electronics. And if it’s global, do we really need the opinions of unknown Chinese newsagens? Turned a reputable portal into an aggregator of Chinese jaundice.
  35. Dedok
    Dedok 1 November 2019 11: 03
    0
    The main thesis of the article is that we (Russia) live by concepts - "they say, women still give birth" ... but the world looks at it differently
    And the technical characteristics (missiles in this case) are tinsel, the details behind which this question is for us.